Volume XLI Monday Province of Newfoundland FORTY -FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush {Preliminary Transcript] Numbe r 42 28 May 1990

The House met at 2:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker (Lush): Order, please! The hon. the Member for Placentia is on Orders? Mr. Hogan: Yes, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker: We will move back to Statements by Ministers afterwards. By leave. The hon. the Member fo~ Placentia. Mr. Hogan: I was slow rising, Mr. Speaker. Pardon me. Mr. Speaker, I rise in this bon. House to beg the indulgence of the bon. Chair and all hon. Members to pay tribute to a very brave young lady, a heroic young Newfoundlander who met with a t~agic and violent death on Thursday past.

I wish to support, in concurrence with my colleagues, in extending sympathies in public to a bereaved and saddened family and community. Mr. Speaker, Mary Angela Griffiths of Ship Harbour, age 23, died tragically following a motor vehicle accident just a short time afte~ she graduated from Memo~ial Unive~sity with a Bachelo~ of Arts degree in folklore. She was diagnosed with Cystic Fibrosis at the age of 18 months. As we all know many CF patients do not ~each adulthood. 'Sis' to those of us who knew her well, or followed her career through her early school years in St.

Anne's All Grade School in Dunville, and then th~ough Unive~sity, knew her as a charming vibrant young lady ambitious with long term goals, despite her illness. L1 May 28, 1990 Vol XLI Sis took up to sixty pills a day and injections of insulin fo~ diabetes. She visited the hospital every six weeks and was required to be hospitalized once a year. She had undergone major surgery a number of times. Still she accepted the joys that each day provided. Sis sat across from me not long ago in my office, and I knew, Mr.

Speaker, f~om being told about her illness, I can see her now in my mind as she sat there full of life and vitality and with g~eat expectancy of what the future held and her ambitions to get her Masters degree in ~olklo~e. Mr. Speaker, hon. colleagues, let me share with you a recent comment she made, 'It is easy enough to sit on my haunches and do nothing but feel sorry for myself, but where does that get me?' Her life, her hard work, he~ trials and tribulations, particularly her attitude, could be an inspiration to all of us. It certainly is a legacy to family f~iends and communities.

Those of us who knew he~ ever so slightly are better people for having he~ touch our souls and ou~ lives. Mr. Speake~, a beautiful pe~son, a young brave Newfoundlander whose comments should inspi~e all of us, and it is worth repeating, 'It is easy enough to sit on my haunches and do nothing but feel sor~y fo~ myself, but where does that get me?' Mary Angela Griffiths - Graduate Memo~ial University, May 24, 1990 - dead, age 23, May 24th, 1990. Mr. Speaker: The bon. the Opposition House Leader. No. 42 (Afte~noon) R1

Mr. Simms: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to assure the Member for Placentia and all hon. Members of the House that we heartily concur with his request that you, Your Honour, send a message of condolences to the bereaved family of Miss Griffiths. I can tell hon. Members from personal experiences, that while I did not know Mary Angela, I had some involvement in the CF program through my association with the Kinsmen Association of Canada, and that of course is a national program of that organization, and I had many occasions in fact, an opportunity to meet many CF patients.

I must also say that I did have an occasion or an opportunity I think to see an interview, a television interview with this young lady just a few days before the tragedy occurred, and I watched it because of my interest in CF and I must say, she expressed a fantastic outlook for her future, when you consider the fact that CF children really don't have longevity to look forward to in terms of life, and she reminded me of so many other young CF children that I have met in my days of involvement with the Kinsmen Association, so I was struck by that interview.

I remember her having a great outlook, a very bubbly personality, talked about getting her university degree and then moving on to get her Master's, and depending on that, what her future would be in terms of work and all the rest of it, so she had a great outlook, a very positive outlook, and I am sure I speak for Members on this side of the House, as well as everybody else for that matter, that we share in the request from the han. Member that a message of condolence be sent to the family concerning this very sad tragedy. L2 May 28, 1990 Vol XLI Oral Questions Mr. Speaker: The han. the Leader of the Opposition.

Mr. Rideout: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Premier. Would the Premier confirm for the House whether or not the effect of

Section 39 (2) of the present Constitution Act is to place in effect a three year time limit on amendments to the Constitution? Mr. Speaker: The han. the Premier. Premier Wells: If he does not mind, it may take two or three minutes to explain where the time limits are.

There are three types of amendments to the Constitution: One which can be put in place by seven out of the ten provinces provided they have 50 per cent of the population, called a general amending formula; another type of amendment which requires the approval of all ten Legislatures; and a third type of amendment which can be done with the approval of Parliament and the Legislature of the only Province affected, such as an amendment to the Terms of Union. I do not have the text of it in front of me, but ·my recollection of it is that

Section 39 (2) provides that any amendment put forward in accordance with 38 (1), which is the general amending formula, seven out of ten, in such a case the level of approval required, that is the seven of the ten provinces, must be reached within three years, otherwise the proclamation that implements the amendment cannot be implemented after the passage of three years. The provision in

Section 41 that No. 42 (Afternoon) R2

amendment based on no such pt:'ovision, pt'ovides fot' unanimity has and, if my t'ecollection is cot't'ect, 39 incocyot'ate amendments.

(2) Section does not 41 type Mt'. Rideout: A supplementary, Mr . Speaket'. Mr. Speaket': The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Rideout: Mt'. Speaket', would not the Pt'emiet' confit'ffi that

Section 39 (2) stat'ts the time clock ticking when the first Legislature, eithet' the Parliament of Canada Ot' anothet' Legislature, when the first Legislatut'e gives approval to a constitutional amendment, that

Section 39 (2) then puts in place a tht'ee yeat' time ft'ame and that time frame will expit'e on 23 June? Is that not a . fact? That is what -I am trying to establish. Mr. Speaker: The bon. the Premier. Premier Wells: It depends, Mr. Speaker, on whethet' the amendment being put fot'Wat'd is an amendment that is being done with seven out of ten, Ot' unanimity.

If it is an amendment that t'equit'es seven out of ten, if that is what is put fot'Wat'd, an amendment that t'equires seven out of ten, then it starts the time clock t.icking on the day when the fit'st Legislatut'e, whether it is pt:'ovincial Ot' federal, passea Lhe first resolution appt:'oving the amendment. Now, what does the Meech Lake Accot'd, fot' example, t'equire? That is Lhc question. What kind of approval does it t'equire? Evet'ybody knows it t'equir·es approval of all t.fm provinces.

So·· :e of the eomponents of the Meech Lake Accord can be amended on the basis of seven out L3 May 28, 1990 Vol XLI of the ten pt'ovinces; components of the Meech Accot'd t'equit'e unanimity in to effect the amendment. othet' Lake ot'det' So it is all put togethet' in a single package, the Meech Lake Accord. It is put foc-wat'd as a single package pt'oposal of amendments. Now what does it t'equit'e? Some of the components are seven out of ten, some of them at'e unanimous. So what does Meech Lake t'equit'e to pass? Obviously, it t'equit'es unanimity. Why? Because some of its components t'equit'e unanimity.

And if you t'equit'e unanimity you at'e at the vet'y least going to have seven, so you meet that test. But you cannot implement the Meech Lake Accot'd when seven out of the ten appt'ove it, because you have put togethet' a total package, some components of which wet'e agt'eed to on the basis of agreeing to othet's. So you have a total package that t'equit'es unanimity. In the case of the Meech Lake Accot'd, my judgment and the judgment of a gt'eat many constitutional scholat's is that the time clock does not stat't ticking because it is an amendment that t'equit'es unanimity.

They do, howevet', cleat'ly t'ecognize that thet'e is anothet' at'gument. Thet'e at'e those who say, bf'!<:ause some of the components can be amended on the basis of seven out of ten, thet'ef ot'e, you t'eally have to slart the time clock . Well, we do not know what a cout'l will say because il l•·• . "; ·vcO!t' bePn teated. Thet'e at'e tho ~;,_• '"'1'" say that if that gets to cout't the court will say no, it does not requit'e the time limit. And thet'e aC'e those who say we] 1, no, we think the aafeaL wuy to go is that the cout't will conclude that it No. 42 (Afternoon) R3

does require. Nobody knows with absolute certainty. But, in any event, if the Meech Lake issue is to be addresacd, it is clear that the Legislatures will again have to address the add-ons or the parallel accord or whatever it is. So legislative action is required. And if legislative action is required, then June 23 really means nothing because the Legislatures must act to resolve the impasse.

June 23 only has signjf i cance if you start fr·om the proposition that it requires approval within three years, which is very much an uncertain and debatable position, and secondly~ if the Meec:h Lake Acc:ord is going to be pasac-•1 ;lr: il is, without any further chan~~ or add-ons. Mr. Speaker: The bon. of the Opposjtion. the Leader Mr.. Rideout: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Would the Premier Lell the House whether or not it is his view that if there is to b~ an extension of the June 23 deadline, and if it is to be done properly constitutionally, would it take tl1e consent, again, of all ten Legislatur:P.[; n11•l the Par] lament of Canada, in his view, to extend the deadline beyond June 23? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier.

Premier Wells: If you fir~L operate ft·orn Lhe assumption that the deadline is, in fact, a constitutional requirement, and for purposes of the queaUon 1 will make that assumption, although I disagree, I do not think it is, anrl I think a court in the end will say this is an amendment that requires unanimity, so the three years does not apply, but let 11~~ ;Jssume that t.he other L4 May 28, 1990 Vol XLI argumcnl '"fould be upheld by the '-'•IIJ eLs and it would apply.

That being so, then in order to extend it. it would require the action of all the Provincial Legis la Lu n~s and the Federal House of Commons and Senate, because, of course, it is an adjustment to the amending formula and you can only make adjust.ml'!nts to Lhe amending formula with the unanimous approval of all. So, yes, if you start with the assumption that the three year time limit is a constitutional requirement, then it would require that level of approval. l·Tr. Speaker: The l1on. I. he Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: -·-----Thank you , I1r. Speaker.

T the Premi e1· issue. have a question for as well, on the same Can the Pecmier confirm foe l.he House whether or not he has had a public relatl ons firm engaged for several weeks now doing video clips and preparing an o:.dvertising campaign, and so on, for a Pr·ovincial referendum on the Meech Lake issue? ~~_Speaker: The hon. the Premier. ~remier Wells: No, Mr. Speaker. By no, I do not mean no 1 e;Jnnot confirm it. I can confirm Lhat il is totally false, il is without validity. I have not enga~ed a public r~lations firm to do <:1 ips for preparing for a referendum on tl1e Meech Lake issue.

That is wrong. ~~ Speaker: The hon. the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: supplementary Mr. Speaker, to the Does he intend to do so? No. 42 (AfLCI"I100n) a quick Premier. Rll

...... Mr. Speaker: The bon. the Premier . Premier Wells: Mr. Speaker, I have asked a public relatjons firm to consider ' what will be necessary, what kind of actions would be necessary to ensure that two things are achieved: the people of the Province will be fully informed on bolh sides of the issue. Not to carry on a campaign, no. A campaign is out of the question. I would not partjcipate in il. To ensure that the peop.l e of the Province are fully informed, and to ensure that the people of the nation are accurately informed, what would be necessary to ensure that to be done?

I have received an outline or· a recommendation; I have considered it and I have prepared a reply to say I do not like what you suggest. That is as far as it has gotten. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Opposition House Leader . Mr. Simms: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I can move along to a different sort of idea. Can the Premier advise the House the estimated cost involved of running a pr·ovinc] al referendum through the Chief Electoral offices? Obviously I would assume he has had cost estimates done. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premjer.. Premier Wells: No, Mr.

Speaker, I have not had full cost estimates done, but I will be asking the Chief Electoral Officer to advise me of that. Because, of course, if we proceed with a referendum, we will have to make adequate pr·ovision for it, and I would want to bring the proposal before the HousP !.o do that. I don't know what the cost wi 11 bP.. The only LS May 28, 1990 Vol XLI step I have taken in Lhat directlon at all so far is La say to the Chief Electoral Officer, It is possible you may be cnlled upon to eonduct such a re[ucendum on very short notice.

Would you please ensure that you have examined everything that would be necessary in order. to carry out such a refet·endum and be prepared to implement it on short notice if a decision is made to conduct such a referendum? But do not take any steps whatsoever towards implementation of su<:h a C'e[erendum. !1~ Speaker: The bon. the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Would the Premier, when he looks into this, check i nt.o some actual figures, or some figures I have been able to detet·mine fr·om consultation with certain people who would know, and perhaps he would then be able to confirm for the House that the actual cost of holding a provincial. referendum would be somewhere in the area bclween $1 million and $1.2 million? Would he check to confirm those figures? rremter Wells: Mr. Speaker, I .,.,; 11 try to get some idea f r·om the Chief Electoral Officer as to what the actual cost of a referendum might be. I don't know who the certain persons are the bon. Member contacted.

It may be the Chief Electoral Officer for al 1 I know. But I will certainly ask the Chief F.l ectora l Officer and I will advise the House of the estimated cost. ~J;--=------.l)peaker: The hon . the M~~mbe C' foC' Port au Port. No. 4/. (Afternoon) RS

Mr. Hodder: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Socia] Services. As the Minister is aware, the Newfoundland Association for Community Living have asked for increased funding this year. Without this increased funding, they say, they may be forced to close their doors. He is also aware, no doubt, that the Association, whj ch is H. volunteer organization, wa!; cespomdble for placing the c.hildren from Exon House around t.he Province and are now busy integrating these children into cor nrnunitj es around the Province. Mr. Speaker, the Minister depends on those volunteers.

Without those volunteers, he cannot carry out his mandate. My question to the Minister is, why did the Minister not follow through with promises and ]mplied promises of increased funding to this group, funding which was well deserved? ~ Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. Mr. Efford: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am surprised the hon. the Member for Port au Port had to read the question. Because this is not a new problem, 'it has been an ongoing problem with the Association for quite some time, back when the Member was part of the Cabinet. Let me tell you, Mr.

Speaker, very clearly, I have been very, very heavily involved wi t-.h the Newfound] and A::;:;or·.lation for the Disabled over the past twelve months. An Hon. M~mber: Community Living. L6 May 28, 1990 Vol xr.r Mr. Efford: Community Living. We have been totally co-operative. In fact, \oTe incn~ased the funding from $260,000, in last yt-!ar's Budget, Lo $900,000. In fact, I was the only Minister of Social Services from across Canada to attend the conference in PEI last October. So I am very much aware of the value - An Han.

Member: That is the time you were (inaudible). ~~fford: Yes, I remember c::;pecially when I got bac:k But that is another matter. lhat, home. And I am not hanging my head in shame about anything. I H.Til very the my concerned and very aware of request they have made of Department. This Government is not turning its back on the iruportance of the Association. We are revjewing what's taking place - the request of funding.

We also found out that the former Administration was fundjng Lhe Labrador Aasnciation of Community Living mor-e than they were funding the ~hole Prov] ncial Association, which doesn't make any sense. An Hon. Member: Gc~ography! Mr-. Efford: geography. I Newfoundland Geography, boy! It's would and not the think the Labrador Association of Community Living would receive mor-e or- an equal amount. Never-theless, there is some discrepancy ther-e. Mr. Speaker, in answer to the Gentleman's question, T H.m aware or l.he request, I am concerned about Lhe request. and we :u·e n~viewing the request.

Tn fact, it was only about an hour before I came to Lhe House of Assembly that T rece]ved H. ~~11 from Lhc No. 42 (Afternoon) R6

President to arrange a meeting, and I have ar·Tanged to sit down and meet with the President of the Association. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Port au Port. Mr. Hodder: Mr. SpP.aker, the funding t:hP. Minister is talking about: Last year" the Mwociation received $50,000, this year they have received $37,000. But, Mr.

Speaker, one of thP- reasons the increased funding ~ootas asked for this year, and the amount w•.1s actually $110,000, is because of the fact that there are 200 people at the Waterford who are not in psychiatric care, they are not psychiatric patients, they are mentally handicapped, developmentally delayed. Does the Minister not agree Lhat these 200 people I mean, it. is a cryi11::, shame should b«=.~ re-integcated into the community? Certainly tl1e Waterford agrees and certainly the Association foL· C:ommuni ty Living agrees. Does the Minister not agree? And how could the Minister do this?

I mean, an extra $60,000 this organization is asking for to help fund a five yP-ar plan, help them obtain some funding from Ottawa, to re-integrate thesP. people who are now in thP. Waterford into the cor1munity, as happP.ned ill Rxon House and var· i ous other facilities of l.he Prov.i nee. How could the Minister even consider denying these people that $60,000 for this cause? Mr. Speaker: The hon. l.he Minister of Social Services. Mr. Efford: First of all, Mr. Speaker, we haven't come t:o a final decision as to whether we are going to allow the extra funding or not. That decision has not been made.

It will bP. made in L7 May 28, 1990 Vol XLI the very near future. And I have already agreed to a meeting. But let me tell the hon. gentleman and everybody in the Province, and this hon. House of Assembly, that we have great concerns about the rapid move in which the deinstitutionalization of Exon House and the Children's Home was done and we an! not tolally satisfied that all the children and all the residents who have been moved out into the Province are totally taken ce~rc of.

So what we 'N"ould like to do i.s work cooperatively with the ot"ganizations and all the people, thr?. experts in the Department of Social Seevices, to ensut"e that these people are pt"operly taken cat"e as fat" as job suppot"ts, as far as education programs, as far as co-operative apar"tments at"e ··nne.erned. When we do all those und we arc Lotally satisfied, then we 'N"j 11 c:onsider deinstitutionalizing t.he Waterford. But we are not ready, we at"e not prepared and. we at·e certainly not financially pt"epat"ed to deinstitutionalize Waterfot"d.

We at"e interes.ted i.n working in cooperation with the Newfoundland Association for Community Living, in making rept"esentation to Ottawa to r,et some funding. When lhc Pr·ov lnce i s ready lo dclnst:ilulionali:l:e, I a1u ::t!t"e il will be rlone. But we ace nol going to t"ush in to it, and we "L"li.~ nol going l.o be focced into it and make the wrong decisions. Ioit". Speaker": The han. thr?. Member" for Pot"t au Port . Mr. Hodder: Mr.

Speaker, at the Waterford, at the present time, we have one student who lives in the Waterfot"d and wor·ks outside, and is actually an advocate to tt"y to get hiwse lf out: of the Wa lerf ot"d. No. 42 (AH.er·noon) R7

That is Lhe kind of situation that is going on in this Province. Mr. Speaker, we hear about in excess of $1 million fur a referendum tossed around in this legislature today. Mr. Speaker, we are talking about - Some Hon. Members: By whom? Mr. Hodder: Well, the Premier has been talking about a referendum, and admj tted that he would haw~ a ceferendum. Don • t be stupicl. Mr. Speaker: Order, please! I suggest to the han. Mewber that he is on a supplementary. I would ask hjm to get to the supplementary very quickly, please. Mr. Hodder: Mr.

Speaket", the Minister is trying to nickel and dime that organization, an organization without which the Minister could not operate in this Province. The Minister was up .i.n PF:T bcagging about how good they were. Mr. Speaker, my question is, is the Minister or is he not going to restore funding to Lhat ocganization? Is he or is he not? Stop beating acound the bush and answer the question. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The han . the Minister of Social Services. Mr. Efford: Take that between the two eyes. Mr. Speaker, let me teLl the han.

Member one thlng, that the 174 people who are now in the Waterford, most of them were there for the last seventeen years, \ooihi 1 e the past . Administration L8 May 28, 1990 V'ol XLI completely turn~<l Utei r backs on them. We are conc.erned about l.he residents of Waterford. We, as well as all other people in the conummi ty, recogn i.ze tlte f ae t that they should have an equal and fair opportunity for community living. But we do not want to proceed, to rush and take those people out to put them into the cornmunity without having the proper supports in place.

Unlike the former Administration, we are planning for the future, what is best foe I he peop .l e of Lhis pn)vince. :,..Jhether: you have a disahiliLy <JL~ no\:., everybody should have an equal and fait" opporlunity to live in Lh(! c.ommuni ty, and ·..c~ ln l.c-nd to do that. Will we mecl with the group? Yes. I have alr·eady agreed to meet with the Association. And the Me -·,her· c:an stand there from daylight to dack but he is not going to get a commitment out of me in the House of Assembly until I see an opportunity for the people in my depar·tr nent to as~_:·~~3S the needs, to meet with the organization.

And each and every tlme I . have had an opportunity lo meet publicly or to discuss, I have ::~!ways bragged about lhe job Lhose people an ) do in~. They i'lL'C' doing a fantast .ic job. Government would not be able to do the job those people are doing. They have my lotal support, and it will continue. T can assure hon. Members opposite, much to their despair, that they are going to see some positive action take place over the next several years with the Association for Co wmunity living, in cooperation with the Department of Social Services. Mr. Speaker: The han. the Member for' Fogo. Mr. Winsor: Thank you, Mr.

No. 42 (Afternoon) R8

:j/1 Speaker. My que~ tion is to the Minister. of Fisheries. Last Thursday, in Question Period, I asked the Minister about storm damage done to fishermen's gear: nets, traps and so on. The Minister indicated that his officials were, as of that day, assessing the situation. Does the Minister now have t.he reports, and is there going lo be eompensat.ion for the affected fishermen? Mr.. Speaker: The Mjnister of Fisheries. hon . the ~Carter: Mr. Speaker, the officials from my department were instructed to visit the area and to do an assessment of the damages.

I have not received a report yet, but T wi l1 undertake to have it ready in time for Question Period tomorrow, in the House. Mr. Speaker: for Fogo. Mr. Winsor: Speaker. The han. the Member A supP.lementary, t-lr. I had a convers::l.tion with several fishermen thjs week who indicate they have not seen any officials from the Department of Fisheries. Have the officials visited any communi ties and talked to the fishermen? If so, wh~t communities did they visit? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. ~r. Carter: Mr.

Speaker, my instructions WPre to have my officials investigate the problem and report back t.o me. Now, 1 cannot l~ll the Member what people they talked •.v-ith or what communities they visited, I can L9 May 28, 1990 Vol XL1 only tell you that when I say I am going to have tl1P.Tll do it, they will do it. Mr. Speaker: for Fogo. Mr. Winsor: Speaker. The han. the Member A supplementary, Mr. The Minister assured us on Thursday that time was of the essence in getting this report.

Has the Minister considered eliminatjng the $7 co!':t: of Lhe traps in Lhe lobster trap bank lo the rishermen, since they have had no opportunity to make any money so far this year? Mr. Speaker: The han. the Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Carter: Mr. Speaker, we have not considered eliminating the $7 charge; we have not been cequested to eliminate it. As I said before, we •...rill look at. it and we wi 11 have lo judge almost every case on its own merit. We would be cnrtainly willing to have a look at. it, but, certainly, up Lo now we have not. ~Speaker: for Menihek. The hon. the Member ~~A . ..2!!ow: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Environment antl Lands. Westeen Labrador residents and, indeed, residents of Churchill Falls, were horrified last Friday when witnessing the local news they saw lhat non-residRnts displayed about 150 sl aughb-!red geese from northern Labrador, illegally shot geese. Gan the Minist.f~C" tell me if his Department and other Government officials were fot·ewarned that. illegal hunting or poaching was to occur i..n the Menihek Lake area? No. 42 (Afternoon) R9

Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands. Mr. Kelland: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I had no forewarning that illegal hunting was about to take place, Mr. Speaker. The waterfall is Federal jurisdiction. However, we do work tn conjunction wlth them as best we can to try to enforce wildlife L"cgulatlons. With respect to what transpired, whether or not there was some advanced notice La Ll"' 1nodia or the media were aware, I will have to check it out and advise the Member. later. Mr. Speaker: for Menihek. The bon. the Member Mr. -·~now: Mr. Speaker, the media w~re involved.

There •.va~:; a pn-!ss release issued by the five people, T believe, that. they wet"e ~oing to do this. I would emphasize to the Minister that while enforcement may indeed be under Federal jurisdiction, the protection of the wildlife is indeed all of our responsibility. I would ask him if he, indeed, would investigate more fully and t"eport back to thjs House what they will do with regard to this matter? ~ Speaker': The bon. the Minister of Environment and Lands. Mr. Kelland: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes, I have already responded to the han. Member's last suggestion, Mr. Speaker.

What bothers me about. any abuse of wildlife, no matter' who the perpetrators at"e, is if anyone is attempting to make any sort of a political point, or a point nLher tlian what might be LlO May 28, 1990 Vol XLI accepted under regulations. I blatant abuse existing believe of our wildlife it is a wild 1 ife resource when someone will slaughtet" just. t-.o make a point, i.f that was the case. In thls case, Mr. Speaker, and I have no knowledge that it . might have been until I inveaLlgate, I Lhink we can probably support our federal colleagues in whatever actlon they wiah to lake.

However, I do not have the details, Mr. Speaker, beyond that. I wou 1 d he happy to undertake to find out what they are and report back to the House. Mt". Speaker: The han. the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: Thank you, Mr. Premier - Mr. Speaker. A bit pt'emature, Mr. Speaker. I have another questlun (or the Pr·emier, Mr. SpAaker, eel a ted to a diffet"ent topic. Can tho.'!

Prem .i et" tell me whethet· ur· no !. 1,.. '•'<JS aware thal the 140 or so Wooddalc Nursery workers out in central Newfoundland had called his office last week, in advance of his to central Newfoundland, requested a meeting with him? he aware of that request? trip and Was ~r. Speaker: The hon. the Premier' . ~remie_r_W_ells: There wuG a request c~me in I believe from the Woodda le group, f L"Om the union stewat"d. I may he talking about another gt"oup; I am just speaking ft"om recollectlon, but I will check. My recollection is that there was a request fL·om somebody who was an employee of lhe Wooddale Nursery .

I thought he was a member of the union, and somebody told me l1e was the shop stewar·d of the union. It is not appropriate for the Premier to 1 nlerferc \<ti th t.h~:~ normal No . 42 (Aft.ernoon) RlO

operotions of collective bargaining, so I r~[erred to matter t.o -- I believe that 1 s lhe matter I referred to the Pre:::oident of Treasury Board. I will lH:~.ve to check it, but I have a recollection of something like that. I also spoke to the Minister of Forestry and he told me he was going to meet with a group. I do not know whether it was when I was in Grand Falls last week they sought to meet, but. I remember somelhing like t.hat ariCl somebody told me it was o request fru·n tl1e union shop s Leward. So it would be inappropriate for me to meet with them. I may be 'N"rong.

That may have been in respect to some other group, but I have that vague recollection. Mr. Speaker: The Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I believe the Premier might have it confused with something else. The individual, I think, who ca.ll ed was a spokesperson on behalf of Lhe workers. It had nothing to do wi. th collect 1 ve bargaining or anything else, it has to do w] th the si tuatlon that exists at. Tlllooddale and their concerns and all the re:::; t of it.

They did, in fact, have a meeting with the Minister of Forestry and the Member for Exploits on Wednesday night, but on Thursday night I met with them and they tal d me they were totally disillusioned and dissatisfied with the meeting they had the night before. My point is this, and they have asked rne to ask you the quest.1 on directly today in the Legislature, would you be prepared to meet with Lll May 28, 1990 Vol XLT a rcpr-P.!;Pntative group o[ t.he wor·ker:::; at ~vooddale t.o d isc.uss their concerns if they were to request SUI:.h a meeting o[ you in the nexL week or so? Mr. Speaker: The bon. the Premier.

Premier Wells: I wi 11 meet with any group, anywhere, at any time it ls appropriate for me Lo meet. Now that includes a representative group from the Wooddale Nursery, pr-ovided it is not discussing any aspect of a collective agreement wj l.h it l11at 1s proper.ly managed by the Pres iden!. n r Treasury Board. I wi 11 nol interfere with the Government t-!raployec/cmllloyeL· management relations. Assuming it has nothing to do with thaL, I will meet with that group, rnost certainly. I would never refuse to meet with any group . T am the most responsive Premier in the history of the Province. Some Hon.

Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Spe~ker: The bon. the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That is precisely why I asked t.hc Premier the question, because I have hear-d him say rnany tlmes in the past that he would meet with any group. However, they asked to meet with him last week and, as far as they are concerned, the Premier refused to meet with them. That is why I raised the question.

I want to say to them that if they wish to meet wi. th the Premler to discuss matter::; l"'Clat ing Lo the long- b-!T"TII planning of the Wooddale Tree Nursery, planting projects, planting programs, and things like that, then T am assuming the Premier is prepared to meet with them. Tf they wish to talk to him about N"o. 42 (Afternoon) Rll

long-term planning of the Wooddale Nursery, the future of the Wooddale Nursery, that kind of thing, he is quite prepared to talk to them, but not collective bn.rgaini ng issues, as he suggests. Is that what he is saying exactly? Mr. Speaker: The bon. the Premier. Premier Wells: I am prepared to talk to any group and explain our long-term planning but, frankly, I suggest to you, the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture is a much better informed person on the issue than I am; he can give them much better advice and have a much better discussion.

However, he has met with them, and if as a result of a subsequent meeting with the bon. House Leader he has so obfuscated and confused the issue that it 1 s now necessary for· roe to meet with them and straighten it out, I will be very happy to do so. An Hon. Member: They will be doubly confused after meeting with you. Mr. Speaker: The bon. the Member for Grand Bank. ~r. Matthews: Mr. Speaker, TIIY quest . ion is to the r-ti nister of Health and it concerns the health carP. situation on the Burin Peninsula.

The holding beds which are now left at Grand Bank and are capable of holding between four and six patients before they are transferred to the Burin regional health care centre, is the Minister aware that there has been a directive now and patients are only to remaj n in those beds for twenty-four hours, after which they must be tr·ansferred t.o the Burin regional hospital? L17. May 28, 1990 Vol xr.r Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Health. Mr. Decker: Mr. Speaker, 1 cannot rf!fer spec if lcally to the holding beds in Grand Bank or in St.

Lawrence, but the whole concept of a holding bed is exactly that, that the person stays there until he or she is stabilized. I am surprised that it was as much as twenty-four hours. I would have thought twelve hours would have been a more reasonable amount of time. The idea of a holding bed is not that of an acute care bed, where a person receives tr ·eatment.

A person is rushed to the health care centre with chest pains, stomach pains, or whatever, and the doctor who meets the patient has a few hours to dec ide whether a higher level of care is needed, or i.f it is simply a result of the night before, high living or something, and the doctor has a judgement call, to send the patient home to rest b€~cause there is nothing wrong, or take it to a higher level. I would be surprised if they are being kept there twenty-four hours, Mr. Speaker, when the pe["Son needs a higher level of caee.

But lf Lhat is what is being done, it is not in any \oJn.y c.ontrary to t.he intent of the holding bed. The han. Member should not confuse a holding bed with an acute care bed or a chronic care bed, it is simply a place to stabilize the patient and for the attending physician to determine whether 0[" not there is a higher level needed, or whether ot· not the patient is f["ee to go back home. I1r. Speaker : The hon. the Member foe Grand Bank. No . 42 (Afternoon) Rl2

Mr. Matthews: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Now the real quest. ion here is that in a judgment of a physician a patient may need more than twenty-four hours before they are fully stabilized to be moved, and there is a directive that the nurse in charge now has to call the Burin Hospital after twenty-four hours has expired to notify the Burin Hospital that. a pat. ient has been j n lhe bed fat· m01·e than twenty-four hours. Now the pat.lent may need to be there for thirty or forty-eight hours.

As a matter of fact, some physicians are very, very concerned about it and they are now asking patients to sign a form relieving them of any responsibility because of this situation. And what is happening, Mr. Speaker, let me te 11 the M]nister, is that they are being moved to the regional hospital and, in a lot of cases, they are left in the corridors on stretchers. So they would be much better off in the holding bed, as you referred to it, at the Grand Bank or St. Lawrence Hospitals.

I am wondering if the Minister would check into this, because physicians are telling me that it is really interfering with their proper care of their patients. ~-~aker: The hon. the Minister of Health. ~ Decker: Mr. Speaker, of course I will certainly check into it. But I think what the hon. Member is saying is exactly what I was saying about the reason the holding bed is there. And physicians are right to be concerned if the people are staying in these beds any more than twenty-four hours.

Because if they need a higher level of L13 May 28, 1990 Vol XL.I care, the co;nmuni ty health care centres are not equipped to deal with that. Now, obviously, you have to use a falr amount of common sense. If the danger of moving a person is going to be higher than keeping them in the bed for an extra six hours , I am sure judgment wi 11 be used; and the people who use this judgment have a degree of expertise ond experience in health care. Their flrst alm, 1 am sure, Mr. Speaker, is t.o attend to the well-being of Lhe patient. And there has to be certain common sense.

I am sure that if in twenty-four hours someone is still not fit to be moved, they are not going to move them. I mean, as far as I am concerned, that is foolishness the han. Member is getting on with. Common sense has to pcevail, and we ;:a·e dealing with medical physicians. Mr. Speaker: expired. Question Period has Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given Mr. Speaker: The han. the Premler. Premier Wells: time, Mr. Speaker. I don't waste Some Han. Members: Hear, hear!

Premier Wells: The question aGked by the han. the Opposition House Leader about the meeting of the workers at the Wooddale Nursery: I don't know with certainty whether or not that was the same group that related to the NAPE question, but the individual who requested the meeting was the past President of the NAPE local at. the t. r·ee nursery. No. 42 (Afternoon) Rl3

The simple fact is, I was going to Grand Falls to addres~ the Newfoundland meeting of the repret;entatlves of the Chambers of Conunerce in the Province. I had agreed, prior to that, to meet with the Town Council of Bishop's Falls on the way from Gander to Grand Falls, and there just was not any time. I just went right through. And the people were notified that I could not meet, but the Minister would be available to meet, and they agreed to meet wj th the Minister and t.he hon. the Member· for- Exploits (Mr. Grimes). And they did. It wasn't that I refused to meet with them, as the hon.

Member suggests; that wasn't at all the case. Mr. Sinun~: That is not what they told me. Premier Wells: Well, they are ill-informed. The simple fact is I just could not do it and, at the time, there wasn't the time available on that particular day. They were notified. The simple fact of the matter is, the Minister had a two-hour meeting, they dldn' t like the results and they would like to meet with me, and I am, of course, prepared to meet with them. Mr. Speaker: Questions for been given. The hon. the Services. Further Which Minister Answers to Notice has of Social Mr. Efford: Mr.

Speaker, I don't know i f I should gl ve it now or stand on a point of order, but what I want to do is correct an answer to the question that wa~ asked me in QuestJon Period. Mr. Speaker: No. The hon. gentleman can only stand up here Ll4 May 28, 1990 Vol XLI on ~nswers Lo qw: :~stion!-{ foe whi.ch notice is giw .~n. Petitions The bon. the Member for Menihek. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. A. Snow: I rise in my place, Mr. Speaker, to present a petition on behalf of residents of Labrador City and Wabush and re~idents of Menihek.

The prayer of the pelltion is: 'We, the residenls of western Labrador, are concerned that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador has cut the Labrador Air Passenger Subsidy Program, and has thereby unacceptably increased the burden of transportation costs to the residents of this Province who live in Labrador. Wherefore, your petitioners urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to reconsider its dc?.cisioll and r"einstate the T.>oabradnr Air Passengc!r· Subsidy Program to its original levels .' Two hundred and twenty people signed this petition. Mr.

Speaker, it j s again another petition registering the complaints and the concerns of the people of western Labrador, people who live in Labrador City and Wabush, who are concerned about the additional burden which has been placed on them by the removal of Lhis particular subsidy, which was in place for twenty-five years. Last week, or two weeks ago we heard the Pn!m ier 1rr l·esponse to another petition, we heard the Premier present a few arguments a~ to why this particular program was No. 42 (Afternoon) Rl4

not continued. And one of his f lrst arguments was the fact that there had been abuse to the program. In fact, that some employ~es of the · larg~r eorporat ions have an airfare paid foC" them by their employer, and they then submit a claim for twenty per cent of the cost of that particular transportation. I do not know of any abuse occurring, Mr. Speaker, but if indeed there is abuse, the abuse has to be removed or cut out. What you do not do is C"emove the program. w~ have seen in recent years abuse of the UIC pr-ogram . We have seen people charged in court with fraud. We did not see the Federal Government remove the complete UIC program because there was abuse to a particular

section of it.. We saw tl1~m chargP. the people that did abuse that particul ;u· program. So that argument does not hold any water. Secondly, we had the Premier suggest that one of the reasons why the program, the Labrador Ai C" Passenger Subsidy PC"ogram was discont.inued, was the fact that residents of LabC"ador who worked foL" the Provine i.al Government received, and I quote from Hansard of May 18, "To begin with, .all Government employees in Labrador get fully paid trips. I do not know how many a year, a number. " I want to correct the Premier's statement.

I am sur·e he did not dP.liberately mislead the Hous~. Tt is my understanding that GovP.rnment employees of Lhe negot i alcd set.t.lement with the Government, w] 1.1 receive over. the next period of three to four years a paid trip for themselves ond their. family, but right now it is only a poC"tion. It is not numbers LlS May 28, 1990 Vol XLI of tdps, it is a poC"tion of the tL·avel of air costs to the Island portion of the Province.

A third aC"gument that was raised by the Premier in response to another petition presented by me was the fact that ther·~ was $700,000 a year subsidy to an airline operating on Lhe coastal portion of Labrador. That is indeed a subsidy and I agree that is a good move by this PC"ovince, this Government, to subsidi:.-:e :J iL· transpoC"tation in Labr·ador. But what must b~ remembered by all Members of this House is that for a good period of the year that is the only mode of lransportation that ls available to the residents of Labrador, and there is no road.

So everywhere else in Lhis Province either has a subsidized ferry service LhrouEhout t.he year or a highway network that is heavily subsidized by the Provincial Government,

whereas in Labrador we do not have that opportunity. We only have air tC"avel. That is the only mode of travel on the coastal por-tion of LabC"ador. So, really, $700,000 is very, very little. If you wanted to really make it equal or equitable to all the resideut.s of this Province, you would indeed have to ~ubsidize il by a tremendous larg~r amount Lhan $700,000. The other argument bC"ought forward by the Premier and the Minister- of Finance, is the fact lhat this Province loses revenue under- the noC"thern allowance, because of the travel subsidy. This is again a misstab· '''f~nt.

T am sure it was not deliberate. But what . occurs, and I wi 11 quote what the Premier suggestt-!d May 18, in Hansnrd. He says, "The northern allowance applies to the whole of Labrador, No. 42 (Afternoon) RlS

and this Government contributes to that because we give up tax revenue in the northern allowance ... Hr. Speaker, that does not occur. What happens is Lhat in Lhe northern resident deductions or the northern benef lts pac:kage there is no deduct i. on on the travel, except that what happens now is that you get a deduction on the travel which is entered in and entered out. Previous to that it was not taxed and that is what the Federal Government did and that is only in place until 1991, that particular benefit, if it is a benefit. ~-~peaker: The hon : ~en t 1 e·· · an' s 1-. i.me is up.

Mr. ~- Snow: So I would urge this Government to reconsider its position, and reinstate t.he Labrador· Subs i ely Program. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains. Mr. Warren: Thank you very --,uch, Mr. Speaker. T rise in support . of the petition signed by some /./.2 residents of the western parl of Labrador. Mr. Speaker, rny colleague:; ;,~nc~ I said here some weeks ago that we will keep on day after day, after day, presenting petitions to this Government which is really cutting the life blood from the people of Labrador.

In fact, if we read the editor-ial that was in the paper a few days ago, in the Evening Telegram, it was not too complimentary at. ;Jll to lhis Government or Lo Lhe r."vernmenl. Members [or Labrador. Mr. Speaker, it just shows again the Ll6 May 28, 1990 Vol XLI disregard that this Government has for the people in Labrador. Now, Mr. Speaker, lf a person goes down to Portugal Cove and ge ts on the ferr·y and. goes across to Be 11 Island it doeB not cos L Lhat much. The only way to gel to Labrador this time of year is to fly into Labrador, you have to fly.

If the Government say that they want to treat everybody equal, then I think they have to look at their transportation system within the Province . Mr. Speaker, we have people in Labrador this year who will be visiting our neighbour Province, he(~dUSe of Lhis subsidy being eliminated. They can go to our neighbour province instead. of coming to the tsland portion of Lhis Province, and spending the few dollars they do have in our Province, which would give the Province some return. Instead of that, Mr. Speaker, they will be forced to go to our neighbour province. Mr.

Speaker, I believe that. this Government has to ask itself a very serious question. The question is not a matter of $300,000 or $400 ,000. The question is what they have done now. They have divided t.he rich against the poor in Labrador. 'fh;~ I. is what they have done, Mr. Speaker, they have divided. They have not only divided, Mr. Speaker, Labrador from Newfoundland, but now they have divided the people in Labrador. They have divided and conquered. Where is the Premier on fairness and balance? I s<Jy this, Mr.

Speaker, T think if l.lw Pl'emler is P.ver thinking about a referendum I would thj nk he will have a little hit of No. 42 ( Af ter·noon) Rl6

troub.l e in thP. Labrador

section of this Province on a referendum, because the people in Labrador realize what this Government is coming to. They realize, Mr. Speaker, that this Government has socked it to them left, right and center. Only last week they announced they are posponing now the two nursing clinics in Hopedale and Davis Inlet, another thing that this Government is up to in their mischievous manner, in their ver·y mischievous mnnner. The Whole Budget was mischievous, the way they cut out the air subsidy Iotas mischievous, and everything they do is down right mischievous and is hurting the people of Labrador. I would say, Mr.

Speaker, that what we see here is the rea] possibility that the two seats the Government presently holfl in Labrador, the two seats they have their fingers on in Labrador, will be gone when the next time rolls around. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, I support this petition and we have many more petitions to go. Orders of the Day Mr. Baker: Motion 1, Mr. Speaker. ~Speaker: Mot ion 1. To Move that the House resolve itself into Committee of thP. Whole on Ways and Means to consider the Raising of Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

The hon. the Member for Harbour Main adjourned the Debate on the Budget, so one assumes that he wants to carry on. The hon. the Member for Harbour L17 May 28, 1990 Vol XLI Main. Mr. I?_oyle: Thank you, Sir. Mr. Speaker, as I said in the adjournment on Friday, there is very little in the Budget that the average person can really get excited about, that is on the positive side. There is plenty really that the average person can get very excited about on the negative side. The Minister of Finance labelled the Budget, when he brought il down, as the people's Budget.

And we :Jre still waiting to see how the people are any better off as a result of the Budget. Development in the Province is virtually at a standstill. There is really not a lot fot" people to look forward to in this Budget in the way of development. And unless we gel <:~ Hibernia dEwelop!"~"~nt go,.i ng or a hydro development going, then we can expect to see the unemployment rate rise even higher, and the unemployment rate is already at a very, very serious level. We saw just last month, as a matter of fact, the unemployment rate go up by approximately 1.4 per cent over the same time period last year. An Hon.

Member: That is a shame. ~~Doyle: And we ean expect lo sec l.he unemployment rate go much higher than that, if we do not get into the development of, not only long-term jobs, but of short- term jobs as well. The Minister of Employment really does not seem to have any programs to address that issue. Before she is prepared to recommend to the Government that they put more money into the Employment Generation Program, she says she is going l.o have to monitor the situation and sec if No. 42 (Aft..~ t"noon) Rl7

the need is there. Recent developments on the Hibernia end of it tend to discourage one into thinking that even Hibernia, where everyone is hoping the total benefits package will be signed by the end of June, everyone is hoping for that. But it is quite possible that the Hibernia development might be placed on hold because you have to look at whether or not a consortium like Mobil Oil and Petro-Canada and Chevron and RP would be willing to put over- $5 billion into a development in a country that is pr-esently as unstable as our country appears to be. And we badly need an economic shot in the arm.

If there is one province in Canada An Han. Member: rear end. A kick in the ~r_. _Doyle: - that needs an economic shot. in the arm right nuw it is Newfoundland. An Han. Member: A kick in the rear. That is what this Province needs . Mr. Doyle: So, Mr-. Speaker, we need the short-term as well as the long-term development as well. It is fine and dandy to say that an Economic Recovery Commission is going to be the answer to the employment woes in Newfoundland. Well they have a ten year mandate, but people need to eat right now, and people need jobs and development going on in the Pro vi nee right now.

And that is wher-e we see the practical side of - I am not getting into the Meech Lake Accord - but that is where we see the practical side of having t.lu-~ Meech Lake Accord passed by Ll8 May 28, 1990 Vol xr.t that-. June deadline, ~:;o that some stability can be put back into the country again. So, .Mr. Speaker, there are a number of megaprojects like Hibernia and the Churchill project that will probably die in the short-term, and possibly the long-term if we do not see some stability developing.

And I do not know how the Minister of Finance 1.!:; golr1g, to hold his cr-edit r-ating 1r there is no hope of Lhese developments taking place. And we ~ee in this Budget, Mr. Speaker, brought down by the Minister. of Finance, a Government that has done more in one year to affect the lives of the average individual in the negative way, than has the previous Government in a ten year period.

You see cuts in the Reereational Capital Grants; you see the POD subsidies ave~ a three year period amount. i.ng to $30 milU on being eliminated; you se0 the Employment Generation Pr-ogram going fr·om $7.5 million do•...,n to $2.q million, at a critical tjme when the unemployment rate is continuing to go up. You see the payroll tax introduced by the Ministet" of Finance, which is going to have a very negative affect on business in the Pt"ovince. It is going to have a negative affect on tout"ism in the Pt"ovince.

You see fish plants closing all over the place and you sec D Government that just recently brought down the axe on the Ombudsman. All of these things at"e negatl ve moves by lhe Government, and how the Minister of Finance could possibly say that this is a people's Budget, and that the people are bettet" off as a r.esult of this Budget, I will ruwer know, Mr. Speaker. We do No. 42 (After-noon) R18

have the Minister of Finance bringing in a ver:y crafty document wh.i ch at first glance, one would say, was a good Budget. It is only when you get down to really analyzing what the Government has done here that you are really able to deter:mine the negative and devastating effect it is having on the people of the Province. One month after: the Budget Speech the Minister has finally admitted that he does not understand the imp 1 ications of that tax.

Wlu-m he introduced j t in the Budget it 'IJaS a hurried type of thing, and the Minister was trying to raise appr:ox.imately $25 million annually, taxing the health care institutions, the school boards, the pas t-secondar:y institutions, the homes for special care - An Han. Member:: This is repetitious. ~Doyle: Yes, and we ar:e going to keep repeating it until the Government finally sits up and starts to take notice as to what they ar:e doing to the people of the Province. Mr:. Speaker:, this health and education tax is really a tax on health and education.

As I said, taxing school boards, post-secondary institutions, homes for special care, nonprofit organizations, even churches and charities and private socia.l service agencies, so, the so-called health and education t.ax is also a tax on health and education in the Province. How the Minister, as I said a moment. ago, could possibly have the gall to call this a people's Budget I will never know. The Minister. of Finance has refused, on so many different occasions, to provide the details of the proposed tax.

Ll9 May 28, 1990 Vol XLT w(~ repeatedly questioned h.i m on this tax, to give us some indication of where the money was coming from, but the Mlnisler of Finanee refused on so many different occasions to give us any details, and that indicates that the tax was really a poorly thought out tax.

It was rushed into the Budget at the last minute, and I have a feeling that one of the reasons that the Minish'!r of Finance rushed into that pArticular tax was l"'':ause the Govcrnrnenl kne~-o1 al. the last moment there was a Budget leak, and that the Opposition disclosed a Budget leak in relation to the proposed changes in the retail sales tax regulations, and this was why the Minister, at the last moment, had to rush into this health and education tax. What has the Minister: done here, Mr. Speakm·?

Tn taxing the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation does it not stand to reason that lhat tax will cause the cost of serviced land to increase a great deal? Does it not stand to reason that if you ar:e going to tax the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corpor:ation ther:e will be an increase in the cost of serviced land, and the ordinary taxpayer will be hit again? Also, Mr:. Speaker:, Laxing Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, as the Minister: is doing: does he not agr:ee that is going La increase the cost of electricity in the Province?

Where will hydr:o make up the difference if the Minister: is imposing this payr:oll tax upon them? They have to pass it along to the consumer:, and the people who are using electricity ever:y day ar:e the people who will No. 42 (Afternoon) Rl9

in thP. final analysis have to pay. This .is how lhe Minister ls getting at the people once again. The Minister told us under questioning that there was going to be no increase in the cost of beers, spirits, and wines in the Province. At the same time of course, he has taxed the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation with payroll tax and as a result they have to p8ss that along lo the consumer, so this is the people's Budget, Mr. Speaker, that the Mjnister is talking about.

Newfoundland Farm Products: I do not believe we have gotten a straight answer from the Minister of Finance yet as to whether or not Newfoundland Farm Products will be subject to that tax. Will Newfoundland Farm Products be subject to the payroll tax? We have asked him on a number of different occasj ons anrl we can' t get an answer from him, but if Newfoundland Farm Products will be aubject to the tax from what we have been hearing, Mr. Speaker, that's going to result in a cost to the consumer, a ~ost in the price of eggs and poultry and the other meal products upon which people depend.

At a time when you have the highest number of people I suppose in the country, below the pover·ty line, and the lowest wages in l he country and the highest unemployment rate, the Minister should be ashamed that he would hit the people in that way.

Taxing hotel buildings, for example, the Holiday Inn and the Holiday Inn properties are going to be taxed by the Minister's payroll tax, and of course that's going to be det-.rimental, tl1at's going to be detrimental to tourjsm in the PL"ovince, and all otl1er tourisl facilities in the Province L20 May 28, 1990 Vol XLI or ·.-· going to be subj ec l to the payroll tax again and l am surprised that we have not heard more from the Minister of Development on that, and how the tourism industry in the Province is going to be negatively affected.

Taxing Marble Mountain development: we see the Government giving with the one hand to the Marble Mountain development in the Corner Brook area, but at-. l.he same U me they arc l.aki ng a•l!!ay wi Lh the other hand by imposing the payroll tax as well. So al 1 of this, Mr. Speaker, is going to be detrimental to the tourism industry, and it•s a good example, as I said, of Government giving with the one hand and taking away with the other hand.

We see the Marystown Shipyards and Newfoundland Hardwoods, these crown corporations are going Lo be subject La t.his 1.5 per c.ont payro 11 tax, and you are going lo find that they are going to be at a 1.5 per cent disadvantage as compared to their competitors from the other parts of Canada and around the world, competition that•s very, very stiff and who don't have the 1. 5 per cent payroll tax with which to contend.

You are going to see that 1. 5 per cent payroll tax applied to i-larystown Shipyard and Newfoundland Hardwoods will put them at a decided disadvantage when trying to compete with their mainland counterparts who don't have to be subject to that tax. Municipalities: that will mean an increase in municipal taxes for communities affected. You have thirty larger communities around the Province that are going to l1r~ve to pay that ~.ax and that of course ol a time when the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs is trying Lo offer some No. 42 (Afternoon) R20

incentive to the various towns and communities around the Province to get involved in the amalgamation process, we see the Minister of Finance throwing the monkey wrench in that whole process. So, Mr. Speaker, taxing teachers' salaries and school boards and the post-secondary institutions, will either increase the cost of education, or it's going to lower the standard, possibly lower the standard of education in the Province.

Memorial University, we are told by the Finance critic, we are told for Memorial University alone, that's going to mean an estimated $1.6 million in lost educational power, $1.6 million additional funding that Memorial University wi 11 have to pay as a result of that payroll tax. Not only Memorial University, but we have the privately operated educational institutions around the Province who are going to be subject to that 1. 5 per cent payroll tax and they, in turn, will have to pass that along to the consumer.

And we are told, they are taxing the Workers' Compensation Commission, a direct tax on the working people of the Province, as well. Mr. Speaker, these are very negative things flowing out of Lhe payroll tax, and all, from a Minister who said that this was the people's Budget. Taxing utilities, such as Newfoundland Light and Power and Newfoundland Telephone, will increase the cost to the consumer as well, because they wi 1.1 be able to go to the Public Utilities Board now and make the case that. the Minister's Budget, imposing the 1.5 per cent tax, is going to cause them to look for a rate increase. Mr.

Speaker, all these things are having a ver:y negative effect. L?.l May 28, 1990 Vol XLI Everyone expected big things from this year's Budget. Last year, of course, when the Government brought down its first Budget, nobody could r:eally expect the Government to come in with a document that was distinctively their:s, because they had only been in power a couple of months and you could not expect from a first Budget that they would be able to do l:.he things they had pr-omised. But now the Government is into the second Budget, they are into their­ second year-, they ar:e no longer a new Administration.

They are r-apidly becoming an old Administration - the honeymoon will soon be over. We sec the Government coming in with their second Budget, which really was not a whole lot better lhan the first Budget they brought in. I remember, fur years, sitting on that side of the House and listening to the now Minister of Social Services every single day making a scathing attack on the Government for its lack of concern about the welfare recipients in the Province.

And we saw that Minister-, on a number of occasions, laying out his plans as to what he '""ould do if he were ever in a position tu do it, that welfare recipients should receive a 15 per cent or 20 per cent increase each year for a number of years, to br-ing them up to just the poverty line, instead of below the poverty line. And, lo and behold, of course, what did we see in the Budget from the Minister of Social Services? Was it a 15 per cent increase, as he promised, or a 20 per cent increase? No, Mr. Speaker, it was a 4 per cent increase, given to social service recipients here in the Province.

School tax was another area the Government was going to get into. No. 42 (Afternoon) R21

They wet"e going t.o cut out the school tax. Now, I t"P.membet", when I was Ministet" of Municipal .Af fait"s, going to a Fedet"ation of Municipalities Convention ovet" in Cot"ner Bt"ook, and I t"em.embet" the Leadet" of the Opposition, at the time, was invited ovet" to that convention, as well. I t"emembet", Mr. Wells, the now Pt"emiet", standing in Cornet" Bt"ook on the stage and announcing to the Fedet"ation of Municipalities that he would be eliminating the school tax.

And, I believe, probably, the Mewbet" foe PlacentL-1. ... ms probably thet"e at Lhat convent ion uvet" in Corner Bt"ook; I believe it was at"ound tht"ee or maybe fout" yeat"s ago. I t"emembet" the Leader of the Opposition, the Pt"emiet" of today, standing on the stage ovet" in Corner Bt"ook announcing to the Federation that if he evet" formed the Govet"nment, he would eliminate thE-! s<:hool tax.

I t"emcmber, at the time, ll1e Presid•~nt of Lhe Fedet"ation, I believe, was Jet"ome Walsh, he questioned the Pt"emiet" on how he would make up that t"evenue, and The Pt"emiet" said education should be financed from general t"evenues, and that one of the fit"st acts he would become involved in would be to eliminate the school tax. An Hon. Membet": (Inaudible). ~~Doyle: I 3ITl not cd t:i cizing the Fedet"ation for wanting the eliminating of school taxes, but what I HID doing is ct"iticizing the Pt"emiet" fot" sayin~ that he wnul d do it and now he has not done it.

So I am looking fot"Wat"d fot" the Membet" for Placentia impressing that once again upon the Premiet". The Promise that he made to the Fedet"ation. An Hon. Membet": (Inaudible). L22 May 28, 1990 Vol XLI Mr. Doyle: You at"e against the elimination of school taxes? An Hon. Membet": No, I am fot" it. Mt". Doyle: Oh, you at"e for it. Well, the Pt"emier was fot" it. The Pt"emier was for the elimination of school taxes about a yeat" ago or two years ago. But now today, he seems to have a lapse of memot"y.

There wet"e all kinds of pt"omises made by the previous Adm:inistration, by t.he cueeent Administration I should say. We saw a brochut"e l.hat was put out dut"ing the election campaign by the Premier pt"omising legislation on double-bt"easting, industrial standards, pay equity, minimum wage, all of these things, and we have yet to see any legislation, any meaningful labour legislation come before the House of Assembly.

Of course, when we examined the Estimtes of the Depat"tment of Employment and Labour Relations, back a fe•.., months ago, low and behold the Ministet", at that time, made the announcement that. lnsofaL­ as pay equity is concerned ~t could take appt"oximately five years for pay equity to be implemented. That is probably closer to the truth than the Minister thour,ht. It was the former· Government who began the whole process of pay equity. All you have to do is read the Federation of Labout"'s Rrlef.

I have a page from it right het"e, where they said, 'The previous Government has laid the groundwot"k on the equal pay issue, and in consultation with the wot"ket"s, a first-t"ate system has bE•en developed of addt"essing the concept of pay equity.' That ls what the Federation of Labour said in presenting its brief to Lhe No. 42 (Aftet"noon) R22

Government just - An Han. _Member: (Inaudible) . Mr. Doyle: Pardon me? The problem is that the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, in the examination of her Estimates, told us that there could be a five year period before pay equity even g-ets off the ground. An Han. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Doyle: Well, I do not know. That is what the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations told us. If you cannot believe the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations - so it will take five years to - Mr. Speaker: Order, please! The han. Member·'s time has elapsed. Mr. Speaker: The han. the Merober for Port au Port.

Mr. Hodder: Mr. Speaker, it is a great pleasure for me to take purt in the Budget Speech. I am surprised, very surprised, Mr. Speaker. T think this is probably the third session that tlre Government has not put up a speaker lo defend the Budget. Mr. Speaker, it is very unusual, highly unusual. I have been in this House for fifteen years and th i. s is the first time I have ever seen one side of the House refuse to speak on the Budget. Mr. Speaker, I happen to be on a Committee, known as the Privileges and Elections Committee, in whic:h we are trying La prepare for television in the House.

One of the complaints I often get from L23 May 28, 1990 Vol XLI Members of that Conunittec, all of whom are backbenc.hers on the Government side, is that the ordinary Member does not get much chance for exposure in the House of Assembly. And that is one of the things that has come up, not only from Members of this Legislature but Members of other Legislatures which we have visited. I flnd it very strange that there are t.wo important speeches in the year, there is tlrf~ Throne Speech and the Budge l. Spec~cl 1, :-r.nd any Membec, particularly ne•..r r1embcL'G, I would think, would like to take

part in those debates. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, in the old days, in the days of Mr. Smallwood, every Member used to take

part in those Speeches, every Member was duty bound to take part. And, Mr. Speaker, there are presently: the Member for Burgee, Bay d'Esoir, Naskaupi, Carhonear, LaPoile, Harbour Grace, Gander, St. Barbe, Mount Scio - Bell Island, Pleasantville, Bellevue, Trinity - Bay de Verde, Buchans, Waterford - Kenmount, Humber West, the Minister of Education, the Minister of Labour Relations, the Minister of Mines and Energy, St. John's South and St. George's, Mr. Speaker, all of these people have not spoken on the Budget.

Supposing Members only had ten minutes Lo speak on the Budget: I cannot understand, and I do not want to stay here any longer than any other Member, but I just do not underst.and wlry it is that the majority of Government Members you know, Mr. Speaker, for the past five years I sat on that side of the House and I listened to Members on this side of the House shout at us, 'you want to gel ou L. of the House, you are afraid to take the heat'. On two occasions now I have spoken to Minist.P.rs on No. 42 (Afternoon) R23

that side who said, 'Hodder, when are we going to get out of the House? Boy, we have to get out of the House.' And I said, 'Go away, you have to be out of your tree. We only carne in here on, I think it was the 28 of February. We took two weeks, an unprecedented two weeks, three weekends for our Easter holidays, we have only been back a few weeks since that.' And Members on the other side, every time you get in a little conversation with them, twice today I heard it, 'When is the House going to close?' An Hon. Member: Name them. Mr. Hodder: Mr.

Speaker, very easily name them, only thing is conversations I have individuals - Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! I could but the private with Mr. Hodder: I prefer not to, but yes, I could name them. I will certainly name them for the hon. Minister after I finish speaking, and he can go and see his colleagues. I will certainly do that. But j 1:-. is just that if I have a private conversation I keep it private. Bul, Mr.

Speaker, I somctiroes thing that perhaps we should have television in this House because - and my colleague to my left here told me that j n the newspaper of this weekend there was a ruling of the Supreme Court which said that we could not keep television out. And the reason I say this is, not that I want television, but p~dtaps that would get Members like the Member for Naskaupi, and the I1inister of Mines and Energy, perhaps that would get them to their feet to adequately debate. You know, Mr.

Speaker, when we are deba t.ing the Budget Speech we make allegations L24 May 28, 1990 Vol XLI t.u Govern1111'~nt about what is wt·ong with it. We wou 1 d like to see Government come back with their counterarguments - then we have some sort of a debate going. But there is no debate, Mr. Speaker, when one side gets up and there is no answer to their charges. And that is what we have been heor"ing for three full days, not a soul on the olher side are responding. Now, Mr. Speokcr, the Premier was always a sort of person who said, your duties in the Legislature are important.

And h~ seemed to be a person over here that advocated that people should discharge their parliamentary responsibilities. Well how can we consider a proper discharge of parliamentary duties when about 60 per cent or 70 per cent of that side of the House has not even re~ponded, and Members on this side get up one after lhe other. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if Members want to get out of the House after being only here for about a month or a couple of months, if you take out the Easter holidays, if Members want to get out of the House that bad, if this is so irritating to them, perhaps they could spice it up a little bit, bac.k ;:t llfl forth . I mean, Mr. Speaker, I do not think the House closes quicker because Members do not taker

part in debate, I mean it just makes Members on this side decide to fulfill the time anyhow. But if we had a proper debate here it might be fifteen minutes, ten minutes, I recommend to hon. Members that we would get out of the House just as quick. But that is obviously the feeling over there, Mr. Speaker, is that they want to got out of the House, they want to fly out of the House as fast as they can and I cannot believe it. One thing that I truly believe is that the House No. 42 (Afternoon) R24

should be open as possible, Mr. Speaker. long Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). as Mr. Hodder: I believed that when t was in my own GovP.rnment. Many of my own side did not believe it when they were in Government, but I believe it because if Ministers were on their toes, and if Ministers are accountable for everything they do on a day to day basis, moment to moment, T think that makes for good Government. And I think that the stl."onger the opposition the better the Government.

And if Members al."e going to sit back and ignore the opposition, ignore the points of the opposition, ignore debate of the opposition - Some Hon. Members: (Inaudible). Mr. Hodder: Mr. Speaker, T am serious about what T am saying and hon. Members are over there like a bunch of - Mr. Speaker, I am going to ask the Leader of the Opposition to move me up to the other end, because there are three or four Members there who are totally - they do nothing, they never speak, or very rarely.

Now I do not mean the Member for Stephenville, t do not mean the Membel." for Eagle River, and I do not rrtean the Member for Placentia. But, Mr. Speaker, there al."e two or three of them over there that never stop. They interrupt you when you try l.o speak, they are inane comments, and it brings out the worst in me. I just wish I were farther away up the road from them. Mr. Speaker, having said that, the first topic I wanted to mention today in terms of the Budget L25 May 28, 1990 Vol XLI Speech has to do with the disaster which has happened right across the Province concerning the lobster fishery.

Sometimes we forget here in this House what is going on around us. But I can tell hon. Members that in large parts of this Province at the present time there are people who are in a very sad state indeed. Mr. Speaker, last weekend there was a storm which hit a large al."ea of Newfoundland and many fishermen - I can talk fnr·:1 P.Xperience about Port au Port - they watched f l."om Thursday to the following Sunday as pieces of their nets and lobster pots drifted ashore. Most of those fishermen have lost everything they own. Mr.

Speaker, sometimes I think that Members, you know - and a Member like the Minister of Finance might not realize what tl1at means - but sometirnes a Minister, like the Minister of Finance, should perhaps get out and talk to these people and look al. it because, Mr. Speaker, what are they going to do? An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) . Mr. Hodder: What was that? An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Hodder: Well the Member has been talking to them and the Member, when he was on Lhe Government's side, the same thing happened. And just to l:ell the [1inister tl1n.t: these ar~~ nol. partisan- comments that.

I am making, we had to wrestle with the problem too. And when a lot of the fishermen phoned me over the past couple of weeks I said to them, you know then? is nothing very much that is going to be done. There is no gear insurance No. 42 (Afternoon) R25

in place, emergency measures wi ll only help you if it is a massive disaster-, something like ar1 earthquake or something like that, there is nothing in place to help you. However, I will raise the matter in the House of Assembly, and I will do what I can. But that is basically what they were saying. That is what we are asking you. We know the situation. But, Mr. Speaker, that does not mean - and the Minister sits over there and says what is the Member doing, well the Member is bringing it up in the House of Assembly, and the Member is going to try to make a couple of suggestions. Mr.

Speaker, not only is there a problem with lobster traps and the gear insuranc:e pr-ogram, I would like to sec ~nd we tried it when we were over there I would like to see a gear insurance pc-ogr·am and I would like the Governmen-t to pursue and hamrnec- at the Federal Government as much as possible for a gear insurance program of some sort. As well, Mr. Speaker, there was a study done recently, t would like to tell the Minister of Finance, hy Mr. Al•lan Maloney who is a former Minister of Fisheries, ond it was a lobster study of the Province.

Some of the problems that he identified - by the way that study I hope did not fall between the cracks, because it was released just about the tlme the Government changed. One of Mr. Maloney's recommendations is that we, and do not say that the Provincial Government ls not responsible for- marketing, that we as a Gave r~nmen t, you as a Government, must actively pursue the Eur'opean market. We cannot r-emain forever dependent. It has been so C;Jsy to be dependent on T./.6 May 28, 19!)0 Vol XLI the Boston market, to be dependent on the American market.

That market. is very changeable, and that is the reason that people are getting very low lobster prices. That is one of the problems with the lobster traps now. A person cannot go ahead and buy another two or three hundred lobster traps to replace one's he just had destroyed knowing that the price is so low, and he is aware as well that it's market conditions, but we must somehow forge a link with the European markets and the far east markets. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is something that we can do.

As well, one of the other problems we have here in the Province is that Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and PEI have two lobster seasons and very of ten, when the Newfoundland lobster season opens, the market is ~!ready glutted. /\nd that is what happened essentially this time. Last year, when our season closed, the fishermen got a good price foe­ their lobster. The next season in New Brunswick the market became glutted, their second season. That problem still exists, because so much of the lobster goes into the canning industry and so much goes into the frozen industry. So that is what happened.

The only way we are going tll be able to mat"ket our lohstet·s, and han. gentlemen may not feel thet"e is any importance in this, but I can tell you that lobster' is a ver"y, ver"y valuable t"esource in this Province and we are losing money on it year after' year after year': But if you are going to maximize your retuc-n from your lobsters, we must hold t.l1em here in the Province. Now, Mr'. Speaker', Clearwater, which is a company that slar.ted about flftecn years ago from the back of a tr'uck, in Halifax, and is now one No. 42 (Aftcn10on) R26

"' of the largest companies in Easter.·n Canada, you would think of Clearwater now as being in the same league, maybe not as big as, say, National Sea, but it is in that league. Just last year I think they bought a Jllarketing company in Breton, one of the largest marketing companies; they are very visible in Europe, they are very visible at the seafood shows at Cologne, and at Nugaro, t think it is, in France. They do big business. They are moving around the world, but they started by holding their lobsters for the right market price. That is where they made their money.

They are present, for instance, in my own dj strict and in the Districts of many hon. Members who happen to live in lobster areas. Mr. Speaker, the Mahoney report suggested that lobsters should be held in Newfoundland until such time as the market became better. Now, it would be a fantastic thing if we could do that at this particular time, because prices are low for· various reasons, as hon. Members know. They are low because of the problem with the environmental regulatl ons in the States, that smal.l lobsters can't go into the States, that sort of thing.

We do have facilities in this Province where we can hold lobsters. For instance, Mr. Speaker, in my own district, and it was recommended in the study actually, there was a company which was put into being during the time of the former Liberal Government, in Mr. Smallwood's time, and was known as sea mining. It was a very good concept. They used to take magnesium out of lhe water. For whatever reason, the parent company went bankrupt and then the other company went bankrupt, but it did operate for awhile.

But L27 May 28, 1990 Vol XLI they left massive tanks, steel tanks six and seven inches thick, probably larger than would be really required, because the water used to be pumped into those and pumped out. Now a lot of the equipment is no longer serviceable, but the tanks ace there and they can be sand blasted and they can be used. Clear~ater has done this, and they do it in a lot of cases where they have dry land storage. All that's needed to keep lobster is the fact that you have to have someway of cooling the water. These are not technical things that are hard to overcome.

We don't need new lechnologies for this, the technology is in place. tn thuS€.! two tanks, and I am suce if someone -- you know, in the District of my bon. friend foe Placentia, T am sure there aee facilities which could be redone to hold lobsters. I don't know if his area is a lobster area. I suspect it may be. But the technology is there and once we start being innovative and once the Recovery Coromissjon wants to get their nose into something that might be worthwhile, there is a good one for them to get involved in. But I would suggest the Minister of Development is the best person to do it. Mr.

Speaker, there are facilities already existing in this Province which could almost hold every lobster we catch today. There would be some of expenditures of money, yes. You need massive pumps, you need cooling systems, and you need a way to keep this water cold through pumping the water. But foL· many times of the year, especially with the climate we have here in Newfoundland, you do not need state of the art type of facilities. No. 42 (Afternoon) R27

Mr. Speaker, that is the sort of thing I would have liked to see in the Budget. I would have liked to have Geen sornP- inltiativP.s which would help the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, instead of things like the health and education tax and all the other things. Mr. Speaker, speaking of the Economic Recovery Commission, I understand that instead of getting involved, in my District we had a company come knocking on the door of the Department of Fisheries saying WP. are here and we want to take over a plant in Fox Island River.

When they got there they found they did not have a saltwater supply but they had a freshwater supply, and there had to be some work done . They did not want any money from Government, they wanted to rent this facility to harvest clams and mussels, of which there are a lot in the area. They are putting in a depuration system because, as han. Members know, for some reason or other, most of our mussels ami clams, partjcularly on the west coast, have to be depurif ied. A depuration system is a system where you pump water through and clean the mussels out with clean water.

Because, for some reason or other, wherever you go, even on the south coast, as my friend for St. George's knows, if you go down to Burgeo, in almost pristine waters, under the Shellfish Act the clams have to be decontaminated. Why we don't know. It is not that there are many along the south coast of Newfoundland; there are no massive towns there. But in Burgeo the underlying water has more points of coliform than is required, and DFO Canada will not allow those clams to go to the mainland market, or to anywhere else, so L28 May 28, 1990 Vol XLT they have to be depurified. An Hon. Member: Depurified? Mr.

Hodder: name of the that :is depurified. It is called Depuration is the system, and basically what they are, That ls a word, yes. a depuration system. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Hodder: Yes. Mr. Speaker, that operation is not going yet, but that is the sort of thing that people have to become involved in. I understand that the Recovery Commission is going around the Province talking to this group and that group about data systems - data systems in Bay st. George? Any business coming to Bay St.

George, without data systems or not, the infrastructure is so small I could give them whatever information they wanted. Yet, I do notice that there are a number of businesses with which I am familiar, which wer·e started under the former Administration. For instance, and I will name one, the Lower Cove operation, they are very interested in that, and so they should be,- and they are also very interested in a sand and gravel operation that is underway in the han. Member's District. They monitor this all the time and I suspect, Mr.

Speaker, that when the thing is announced, they wi 11 say we did it, and they will list it as one of theirs. But that is not the kind of an operation we need. We need some people who are going to try and innovate what we have. Even though the Premier says we cannot live on the fishery alone, and all that sort of thing, and I agree with him, there are lots of ways, without n1aking cod au geatin, or whatever, out of No. 42 (Afternoon) R28

fish, thre m·e lots of ways to innovate, as I suggested, wi tl'l our clam and shellfish, making sure there are proper depuration systems around the Province for our shellfish, and making sure we can hold our lobsters until the market is right. Mr. Speaker, I have seen no thrust by this Government to do anything at all except argue about Meech Lake and tax people. Basically, I have not seen any useful legislation or any useful suggeGLlons in the Budget or in the Throne Speech which would help to carry forward the dream of this Government, which was to bring Newfoundlanders back horne.

Instead of doing that, they are driving Newfoundlanders away by droves. As far as social legislation is concerned, we heard here in the House today the Minister of Social Services has been asked for an extra $60,000 in order to - and this Government was supposed to be a Government who cared about individuals, a great Liberal philosophy, caring about individuals, and they are the most right wing Government this Province has ever seen. Mr. Speaker, here was a chance, here was an opportunity to bring about a reform and the Minister gets up today and he says, 'Oh, the hon.

Member was in power for seventeen years.' Well, I was not. I was only over there for five years; the Governrnen t was in power~ for seventeen years. And these people are still in the Waterford. An Hon. M~rnber: (Inaudible). Mr. Hodder: Yes, and there were Governments ln power when Mr. L29 May 28, 1990 Vol XLI Smallwood was in, there was no Public Tendering Act, and there was no L.his or that. But i l Lakes time to do things.

But it was the former Government in power which decided to close Exon House; it was the Association for Community Living that helped to get the students, or the developmentally delayed children out of Exon House. Now it is time to take the next step, and I am totally surprised that this Government would not go along for $60,000. You see, Mr. Speaker, if I could just tell you something about what the Association for Community Living does. Maybe I should order my speech a little better rather than rambling around so much. But, Mr.

Speaker, the first time I met them was throughout the period when Ex on House was cJ os ing. Mr. Speaker, 1 know of one case of a child who was in Exon House playing with his shoe in a padded room, behind bars for about Len years with no help whatsoever. I think the Premier has seen him, actually. The Premier was out there, and I am sure the Minister of Social Services has seen him. This kid, his name is Ken, he now owns his own business. The Abitibi-Price Mill needs nuts and bolts cleaned every so often, and this boy who, up until the time he came back to Bay St.

George could have been consider·ed a vegetable, he actually has his own business now, he has helpers, he has learned to operate the equipment, has a work ethic like you would not believe. If he is sick, he will crawl to work. He runs a successful business. We have another case of a person who came from Ex on House 'N'hO is now, with help, running a school cnfeteria. That ls the kind of work they ar-e doing. People were No. 42 (Afternoon) R29

taken from Exon House, they werP. put in group homes for a period of time and now they are being integrated back into the community. That is the sort of thing thP. Association for Community Living is doing. Now, Mr. Speaker, the goal of the Association for Community Living, what I was trying to get across here today in Question Period, is to take the people, now that Exon House is done - this cannot be done overnight. And the Minister gets up today and says, 'Ah, you were in there for seventeen years.' It cannot be done OVP.rnight. You cannot do it.

But they now have a five year plan to do the same thing with the people who are at the Waterford. Mr. Speaker, all they have is an office downtown with one person as Executive Direc tor. Because there are funds from Ottawa to help deinstitutionalize students, to help these students get out of the Waterford, his job as Executive Director would be to access funds from Ottawa. It is a totally volunteer organization except for that, very dedicated to helping these people. They will access funds from Ottawa, and over a five year plan start bringin~ out those 200 people who are in the Waterford who should not be there.

The Waterford is for psychiatric people. These are not psychiatric people. The Waterford knows it. Any Member who talks to anybody in the Waterford, who talks to psychologists or psychiatrists in this Province, will tell you there are 200 people there who should not be there. They should be out doing as students I was t.elling you about . They should be out in the communities, and the communities would be better off for it. L30 May 28, 1990 Vol XLI I cannot believe, Mr. Speaker, that this Government had an opportunity to go ahead with that kind of program for $60,000 and did not do it. I cannot understand it, Mr.

Speaker. I appeal to the Premier. We will take no credit for it, or anything like that . I appeal to the Premier that when the Minister sits down with this group - they are thinking now they will have to close it up. As the Member for Stephenville knows, they are such a useful group of people, to turn off these people in any way, shape or form, when you are talking about such a small amount of money, to turn them off and to disappoi.nt them, because they are such committed people, I think is a travesty of justice.

I know, as the Minister said today, there are still people from Exon House in certain parts of the Province who are not being looked after properly, but, Mr. Speaker, they are certainly a hundred thousand times better looked after than they were at Exon House. An Han. Member: (Tnaurlible). Mr. Hodder: Presumably? The Minister says 'presumably'? An Han. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Hodder: Oh, I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. I was going to say, I couldn't believe what I heard. Mr. Speaker, I can't believe it. I started to speak and here t am, my time is up and T haven' t even started to speak on my notes. I just started. Mr.

Speaker, now that the Minister is back, I just want to say to him -- and I don't know if the Minister heard the comments I was making - that this organization we talked No. 42 (Afternoon) R30

..... about in Question Period today is one of the finest organizations 1 have ever, ever come in contact with. Hr. ~fford: Up until today. Hr. Hodder: Up until today! Today they are not a fine organization, Hr. Speaker, because they issued a press release saying they were disappointed in the Government. And, Mr. Speaker, if I were the Minister of Social Servi c:es at this rnoment, 1 would accede to their requeGt and 1 would spend some time saying 'I'm sorry'. Mr. Efford: (Inaudible). Mr. Hodder: Well , I hope so . I think the Minister is going to do it. I really do believe, and I really hope he will. Mr.

Speaker, he will go up in my estimation if he does. I think if he weren't so saucy, and if he weren't so arrogant, he has the potential of being a good Minister of Social Services. But, Mr. Speaker, he can't be nice. I used to be a nice fellow, but since I became Social Services c.ritic, I find myself getting up now and being nasty when I shouldn't be. But 1 expect the Minister to be nasty when he comes back, and I find myself being nasty before he does. Mr. Efford: Being a good Minister of Soc i a.l Services has nothj ng to do with being (inaudible) Tories. Mr. _Hodder: There we go, Mr. Speaker!

The most partisa.n man in the House of Assembly. There's his problem, just illustrated. As I said, partisan! Nasty! Mr. Simms: One of his greatest assets is (inaudible). L3l May 28, 1990 Vol XLI Mr. Hodder: Yes. And, Mr. Speaker, he is trying to let Newfoundlanders know - and he did when he was over here - that he really cares. Well, Mr. Speaker, my final word - and I don't know how much time I have left, I had my five-minute notice some time ago - but my final word, Mr.

Speaker, is let the Minister show us how good he really is and give these people their $60,000; give them that amount, but give tl1ern all the support you possibly can. Because without them you are not going to be able to be a good Minister of Social Services, you are not even going to be a good Government. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for LaPoile. Mr. Ramsay: 1 think if the han.

Member would look at Hansard he will see that although he chose not to highlight. me as being one of the more frequent Members who speak here in this Chamber, a list of the number of times I spoken on a majority and a variety of issues, he would see that such was not the case, as was mentioned in The People's Paper recently.

With regard to the Budget debate, it is interesting to note that Members who, in the past, advocated closing of the House when the per diem allowance was used up, would now want to maintain, of course, that the House Gtay open forever and a day, really a total change and an about-face in their position as to how the House should be run. We also must look at their contention that Members over here aren't standing and speaking. Now, in debate, of course, you put No. 42 (Afternoon) R31

forth both sides; you debate an issue and then you decide, basP.d on the evidence given, or as the amount of evidence has come out, as to who would put forth the winning side in the debate and then a vote is held. An Hon. Member: Bill, (inaudible). Mr. Ramsay: Do you want five? An '!.on. Mernber: (Inaudible) to do that . Mr. Ram~: I have five. Mr. Tobin: Is that ferry going to Argentia? Mr. Ramsay: The ferry is to Argentia? I will talk to you later.

Another thing I wanted. to mention: They also talk about the Budget as if they are up and speaking about all the issues, but we know they may be contemplating amendments to the Budget, possibly the variety of different things they usually do, and in that we will have plenty of opportunity to speak I think, Mr. Speaker. And to imply that we are not willing participants in the proceedings here today and in the future, does not give credibility where cred~bility is due. I also want to note what the Member was mentioning about developmentally delayed individuals.

I had the privilege of being involved with a group similar to the Bay St. George Community Employment Corporation.

I do support the Member's comments that people do need to be integrated into the working society but, still, to say the way things have been done in the past is the way we should do them in L32 May 28, 1990 Vol XLI the future, certainly doesn't allow us the gravity of improving situations, be it an arrangement of Lhe way things were done, to say that the structure that now is with the group homes which are receiving funding for supported work, along with the Association for Mentally and Physcially Handicapped, as it was once called, now the Newfoundland Association For Community Living, to say that the way these things wet,e done in the past would continue - Mr.

Hodder: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: A point of order. The han. the Member for Port au Port. Mr. Hodder: The Member just cannot stand up and take words out of my mouth. Now, Mr. Speaker, when I was speaking the Member - for instance, the idea of group homes has gone out. They people are moving the deinstitutionalized back to the community. That ls something that is being done all across North America . It is a move of the future . We started doing it, and the Minister is doing it. So the Member should speak to the Minister before he gets up and stating what is totally wrong. Mr.

Speaker: Order, please! There is no point of order. When a Member rises on a point of order Iir. Ramsay: Mr . Speaker, if the Member - Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Order, please! No . 42 (Afternoon) R32

Mr. Ramsay: Sorry! Mr. Speaker: WbP-n a Memb~r ris~s on a point of order, he should immediately state what the point of order is. In this particular case, th~ Member did not rise on a point of order, it is just a matter of clarifying what he said, or trying to put an

interpretation on what he had said. There is no point of order. The hon. the Member for LaPoile. Mr. Ramsay: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Member makes a point as to whether or not what he had to say about supported employment was correct. Now the group home situation with developmentally delayed individuals is often used as a delivery vehicle. If the Member was aware of the programs when his Government was in power he would understand that often the Community Employment Corporation would facilitate the provision of funding for the developmentally delay~d individuals who were residents in group homes.

Now if he would listen to the full story I had to tell, he possibly would not jump on a single part of it. Now, as for newspapers, it was mentioned to me by that han. Member some point of note, and with regard to the Budget debat~ I think it is worthy of note, a letter to the Editor in the Western Star on Saturday, May 26, a good day, it was the day I came to be, and in there is this lett~r to the Editor from a lady, Patricia Jesso. She noted: 'Incidentally, James Hodder, the electorate of Port au Port have not forgotten your many election promises regarding jobs.

During the last Provincial election you L33 May 28, 1990 Vol XLT were able to convince a slim majority of voters that they had lo vote Tory in order get jobs because there was a Tory Government in Ottawa.' Now that is the kind of attitude that is typical of the previous administration, that everything would be hanky-dory if we had likened parties in power, here as well as in Ottawa. Well, as we well know, that is possibly not the case. Mr. Tob!g: Tell us ferry for Argentia. support it, or don't you? about Do An Han. M~mber: (Inaudible). lhe you Mr. Tobin: Tell us about it. Have courage! Mr.

Ramsay: It does not take courage. What have you said about it? Mr. Tobin: I support Argentia. Mr. Ramsay: Oh! Good for you. I also note that the Senate, which the opposite side speaks of as being a non-entity, they also utilize the services of Tory Senators many times, including the election campaigns. I also, Mr.

Speaker, want to look at the situation he spoke of with the Waterford, where possibly an institution wU 1 soon need to be deinstitutionalized, where some people who can be r~integrated into the work force can be taken out of that institution through a supported work type program, through the assistance of co-workers, through the supported Employment Program the Minister was very much legitimatizing by increasing the funding in light of No. 4/. (Afternoon) R33

last year's Budget; they increa~P.d it up to $900,000. This is the kind of thing, Mr. Speaker, this Government is doing. It is looking at programs, assessing them on their merits and seeing if the structure and the current delivery system being used for supported work programs is the kind of thing we can support. Now, the way we go about it it. is obvious the former Administration was mur:-fl intent on administration than actually providing the necessa~y improvements to our economy.

So if we concentrate on institutions and thfl method of delivery as opposed to the problem at hand, which is the quality of delivP-ry of services to the people of the Province - that is what we are all here for, to improve the quality of service to the people of the Province, to make sure that every do] lar is spent wisely and is spP.nt in such a way that we will give people the best bang for the buck.

As the han. the Minister of Education often says, the best scholar for the dollar in education, the best service for Social Services for the dollar, and also the best health care for" the dollar in the department of health. So, Mr. Speake e, based on that I have a few other comments I would like to make some other time, as I well realize the Opposition has problems with our Budget. They are in the minority, not only in the House but possibly within the Province, in their assumption that the Budget needs some changes.

So I will, no doubt, havP- an opportunity in the future to speak again during amended portions, and I will, at that time, havfl further to say. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The han. the Member L34 May 28, 1990 Vol XLI for Humber Valley. Mr. Woodford: Thank you, Mr'. Speaker . First, Mr. Speaker, when the Budget came down this year, when the Minister read his Budget, when I got up that evening and left for home I said, My God, how am I going to get up and have anything to say about this when the time comes?

Then, thfl flr"st weekend I was home trying to peruse differ:-ent sections of thfl Budget, over the next hours and days and weeks , as time went by, different things started to surface. And the report card, if I had to bring in one even since that time, would have been all Fs, meaning failure. If you spokfl on it three or four days after the Budget .,,as delivered, or even a week after the Budget was delivered, I would say that Members on both sides of the House would have to say it is probably a hypothetical thing; he is probably playing partisan politics.

But having looked at it, what we thought might have been hypothetical at that time all of a sudden, over time, becomes factual, very factual. Now, T am not going to be able to get in in a half hour all the concer·ns I have pertaining Lo different Government Departments, and some of the particular Budget Highlights, as highlighted in the Budget itself by the Minister. Now, I know doing a Budget is something like playing a game of pool: you are always behind the eight ball, and every time you look up, all you have in front of you j ~ <-~ bunch of open pockets. So, it is nnt an easy job.

I agree it is not an easy job. But, No. 42 (Afternoon) R34

in any case, if you are going to do up a Budget, if you are going to put on taxes, add taxes to this, add taxes here, there or wherever, you should be man enough, I suppose, and up front enough, to say just what it means and where it is going to be applicable. Now, to say we are going to put on a payroll tax in order aid education and health is one thing, having that tax - the amount of the tax supposed to be in the Budget is $15 million for this year and, I think, $25 million for next year - actually collected is another thing. Mr.

Speaker, 1.5 per cent on all employers in the Province - all employers in the Province to me is sinful. t.J'e have a Government which has an Economic Recovery Commission in place, which states unequivocally an categorically that they are out to help all business in the Province, more specifically small business. I wi 11 give you one example of what a 1. 5 per cent payroll tax will do for- a small business. In my area a small business, mainly seasonal but doing a very good business during the tourism season, has a payroll of anywhere from $700,000 to $900,000 a year.

Now $7,000 to $9,000 out of their pockets is a lot in the run of a season, especially when it is seasonal. That is where it is going to hurt. It is not going to be much, 1 suppose, to the likes of Newfoundland Light, Newfoundland Hydro, Newfoundland Tel., Newfoundland Capital Corporation, any of those companies, it certainly is not going to hurt them. All they have to do is walk into the PUB in a month or six weeks time or two L35 May 28, 1990 Vol XLI months time and say boys, I am sorry, we need an increase. They can pass their increase along to the consumer as simple as that.

That is also factual because history has shown that pretty well evet·y time, with the exception of once in Lhe last years, ever since the PUB was dealing with the controls on hydro rates, they had passed without excRption. Then again, on the other hand, when you are talking about hurting small businesses in this Province, I know full well, because I talk to business people in our area, and as 1 said are going to be hit with anywhere from $7,000 to $10,000 to $15,000 just placed on seasonal things.

When we talk about Newfoundland Tel and Newfoundland Light and a few of the others, Newfoundland Light and Power, they paid out approximately, I think it is between $150' and $168 million last year in salaries. Now you don't have to be a mathematician to get the total of 1.5 on that amount of money, and you don' t have to be a politician to know fr·om where that money is going to come.

Besides the increases already established to Newfoundland Light and Newfoundland Hydro, those increases will be passed along and then, sooner rather than later, they will be collecting it off the consumers in this Province who have already been hit with many other taxes which are buried in the very Budget itself. For instance, inspections on new homes is not mentioned in the Budget. If you are going to build a new home today or make any renovations and changes in the electrical system, you have to go for an inspection. That's not mentioned at all, but that went up 100 per cent. 100 per cent, Mr.

Speaker, and that is not mentioned at all. No. 42 (Afternoon) R35

Here again the consumer and t.he person out there who is trying to scrape and scratch and scrounge for a living today, has got to take another thirty or forty dollars out of his pockets just for that. It all adds up. One of the points I am trying to make is, that it has a snowball effect and over a period of twelve months it certainly hurts.

Now I looked at the Budget, I looked at some stats and I suppose any Government, this one being no different, when we look at some of the problem~ which we have as regards unemployment in this Province, we look at the Budget itself and the total figures that are allocated for each Government Department, we have a total, a total of 6.7 per cent of the Budget that is going through the real resource sectors in this Province.

The sectors that are supposed to be the catalyst and the resource generators in order to provide employment in the Province - 6. 7 per cent. 27 per cent of the Budget goes for general Government services, 65.7 per cent of the Budget goes for the Social Sector. Now, Mr. Speaker, you don't have to look at it for long to know where our probl~ms are, and as I said before, this problem is not only new to this Government, it was evident and also there for previous Governments.

When we have such a small percentage, we know deep down where our problems are, 6.7 per cent of our total Provincial Budget goes for resources and that includes Forestry, Agriculture, Tourism and anything to do with Mining, anything to do with what I cal 1 the employment generators in the Province. L36 May 28, 1990 Vol XLI But, Mr. Speaker, one of the t.hings I want to ;nention, and I don't want to go too far without mentioning it, because it is very important, especially to my District and more specifically I suppose all over the Province today, and that is the fishery.

We have a fishery in the White Bay south part of my District, very important really to the communities of Jackson's Am, Sop's Am, Pollard's Point and Hampden, further up towards the Trans-Canada. Owned by P. JaneG and Sons, the plant in Jackson's Am has been operated by them for years, always depended on the shellfish industry, mainly the crab and the pelagics, caplin, mackerel and herring. But now the shellfish industry in that area, like I said before, crab is gone, it is non-existent, the only thing they can depend on now is a few supplementary licences in the fall of the year. Now, Mr.

Speaker, they have tried over the past year to have some allocations made for that plant out there. They talked to the Minister of Fisheries, they have even talked to the Premier, in trying to have something done with regards to a baiter machine for out there, for instance, or some help in obtaining one, some help with regards to the seal fishery, to try to save that community. We hear every day about other communities around the Province, about whole communities being wiped out, dying or dead. This community is no exception, but we nlwer hear of it, of this type of thing.

We, as individual Members do because we are in the Districts pretty well every week for two and three days in some cases, and so we get it firsthand. But until there is a crisis, and the crisis No. 42 (Afternoon) R36

I suppose is not until the actual closu~e of the plant itself, does something like that be highlighted. To help the fishermen in that area two yea~s ago - the Minister of Fisheries is in his seat and he knows full well what I am talking about - we started a marina down there to help out the fishermen in that part of the bay, further down the No~thern Peninsula and even some fishermen in the bon. Ministe~· s Distt·ict, his own Dist~ict. I think it is in the Comfo~t Cove a~ea. So we Gtarted that.

We spent around $150,000 o~ $175,000 and we we~e suppose to go in different phases, the fishermen were patient and said we will wait and will do it in phases each year. But all of a sudden, after the last election, in the institution of this ~eal change in the fairness and balance part of their policy, all of a sudden the construction on the marina was stopped. That was not instituted because they we~e in a P.C. District.

That was instituted and conceived and started based on need, not only by the fishermen down there - granted it was in my area and granted it was in the Jackson's Arm area of the P~ovince - but it was going to help othe~ fisherr11en a~ound the Province, and would have helped them - ~athe~ than carry their boats fa~ long, long distances to try to get something done and repai ~s made -- to get ~eady f'or the fishing season.

I appealed to the Minister last year and again this year to try to see if it is possible for anything to be done, and t am sure that if the Minister said to them, we can only spend $50,000 o~ $100,000 or whatever, t am su~e the people would probably accept it, and over a period of two or three or four years t~y to L37 May 28, 1990 Vol XLI get the p~oject completed.

And I say here again today to the Ministe~, seeing he is in his seat, to try to look at it seriously in next year's Budget, and see if anything can be done for the community because of some of the other p~oblems in the area, which would be a generator in itself, because of what is happening in some other parts of the fishery there. Now, Mr. Speaker, in othe~ secto~s. I suppose namely fo~estry and ag~icul ture, tou~ism and what have you: We have a thriving tourism business in this Province as mentioned by some -- when I look at the Budget I do not see a hell of a lot the~e for tourism.

I would hope that the Minister, in his wisdom, I know he has tourism on the brain, he has always been an advocate of tourism, and I am su~e he will make sure that some of those p~ograms are instituted. And in conjunction with that I would also like to stress to him today the importance of try lng to get that new sign policy in place before the tourist season really takes off, because it is ve~y important. Last year we had cases, and the Minister knows exactly what I am talking about on that, and he does not agree w:i th it, I know he does not agree with what was done, he is a human being.

Because I am sure some of the people that did it could not have been human to do what they did, and that is to take a chain saw and cut the signs down the signs those people had put up to try to adve~tise thei~ business fa~ such a short period of time. We cannot afford the luxury in this P~ovinee to go around taking down anybody' s signs. I do not care what District they are in or where they No. 42 (Afternoon) R37

live or what it pertains to, we cannot afford it. We have people out there, small businesses in this Province trying to scrape and scratch and scrounge to make a living while the dollar is there. It is bad enough when the tourists are not coming. But when we do have them coming, and they manage to put up a sign saying: we have a water slide in here, I have a little restaurant there or a little home there or whatever, cabins, and all of a sudden they come out some day and everything is wiped out, taken down and thrown into the back of a pickup. That to me, Mr'. Speaker, is unconscionable.

We had it done to a couple of small signs a few short years ago and I went after our Administration at that time and they were put back up. I notice a new policy about to be announced and I stress the importance of that as well to the Minister, so that the people will go and get their' pr'oper signage done up, instead of going and getting small signs and spending money where it is only going to be wasted in two or three months time, or five or· six weeks time, especially now that the tourism season is on.

I know when you look at the weather it would not seem that way, but as of today I would say it ls probably the kick-off for the new tourism season in Newfoundland and Labrador. Also we have to tie in tourism, as I mentioned earlier, about the small business part of it, with regards to the payroll tax and some of the other things. But tourism in the area always depended upon this, for the past couple of years, private employment program. I just forget the exact name, but . I think that was what it was.

Now the new L38 May 28, 1990 Vol XLI employment program instituted this year was the Employment Generator Program of which I think $2.9 million was put into the program . Now, Mr . Speaker, despite what some hon. Member·s said on the other side, and mor'e specifically the Minister responsible for employment, that program was a failure and it was no good, anybody employed on that program - it was not a meaningful thing.- it was a degrading thing.

I challenge anybody to go talk to anybody in my District and if they are going to be offered fifty Or" sixty weeks work for' the year' Or' at a time, T think, sixty in the program on twenty, twenty and twenty, and tell them because they are employed on that project that it would be demeaning or degrading, I can assure you you had better' step back a little ways before you say it.

The Minister stated in the House, only a couple of weeks ago, and I have it here in Hansar"d, I will not quote it, anybody employed on that pr'ogram - that we did not want to put people in that kind of a pr'ogram because it would be degrading and demeaning. That to me, as far as I am concerned, Mr. Speaker', is wrong . To have something like 1300 or' 1400 applications come in for' the program and to give out $2.9 mj llion is also wrong.

There are business people there waiting to hire people and to try to help out, because of the downturn in the economy, and to try to help out with their business depending upon that program, sent it in, well intentioned, then all of a sudden, were told just a few short weeks after the Budget came down there was no money there. Now, Mr . Speaker, the unemployment No. 42 (Aft~rnoon) R38

rat~ in this Province, nobody has to tell anybody what it is, is serious. In order for us to address it, I do not think there is anybody here naive enough to say that all of a sudden, within a year or two or three, we are going to have al 1 full-time jobs. We are not. We are living, like I said, on an Island in which not only tourism but even the fishery is seasonal. Even the woods operations now in Forestry ar~ becoming seasonal, because of the deep snow and other things, in a lot of the areas of the Province a lot of the companies are cutting down on thP.i.r winter cut.

So, all those small businesses and companies used that program over the years to try and help their businesses and let them survive. So, I would ask - the Minister is not here, but there are other Cabinet officials here - I would say ·some 'of the best dollars they will ever spend would be in a private sector program or an employment generator program. And it is like everything else, Mr. Speaker, it is not going to work unless it is policed. A program can only be as good as the peop 1 e running it.

I go back and I use a prime example, agricultural land over the years and crown land, the only problem with some of the policies that were changed, their. problem was no policing. Now, to have anybody say or any Government Member to say, or Cabinet Minister especially, to stand and say that this was one of the best Budgets that was every presented, and some of the reasons for not having monies in it in other Departments, and some of the cuts was because of the Feds. All I Government hear is this, and L39 May 28, 1990 the the Federal Federal Vol XLI Government that. How can you, on one hand, Mr.

Speaker, say that we do not have to have jurisdiction, and we cannot have jurisdiction over our resources because we cannot afford to manage them, and then on the other hand blame the Federal Government for not doing this or not doing that. You cannot have it both ways, and you cannot speak through both sides of your mouth - one or the other. If we had such jurisdiction over it, such a small province, we as a people could dictate to the r·est of Canada and the rest of the world that, look, we have this resource or that resource, we are going to police it. You do this, you do that. We will set our quotas.

I often referred to the country of Iceland. Anybody who has ever looked at the histodcal part of their economy in Iceland - they were told they could not do it - look at what they did. They drove away the big country of Britain that was over pillaging off their shores and raping their resources. Look at what they did in a very short time. Look at their economy today. Another example is in agriculture in Iceland. Per capita consumption of milk 32 to 42 liters per year. Today Iceland has the biggest per capita consumption of any country in the world of 267 liters per person.

AJ 1 self sufficient, all done within the boundaries of that little country, and now today they are pretty well self sufficient ln everything. They dictate who comes in and does what. They dictate what goes out and for how much, because they have control of their resources. And I am a firm believer - the day No. 42 (After-noon) R39

will probably never come in our lifetime - but I am sure you will see that if this Province does not have control over all of its re