Manitoba Hansard — 27 May 2015 (Sitting 37, 40th Legislature, 4th Session)

40-4-37

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Fortieth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Daryl Reid Speaker Vol. LXVII No. 37 - 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, May 27, 2015 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Fortieth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital NDP ALLUM, James, Hon. Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson NDP BJORNSON, Peter Gimli NDP BLADY, Sharon, Hon. Kirkfield Park NDP BRAUN, Erna, Hon. Rossmere NDP BRIESE, Stuart Agassiz PC CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. Brandon East NDP CHIEF, Kevin, Hon. Point Douglas NDP CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan NDP CROTHERS, Deanne, Hon. St. James NDP CULLEN, Cliff Spruce Woods PC DEWAR, Greg, Hon.

Selkirk NDP DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FRIESEN, Cameron Morden-Winkler PC GAUDREAU, Dave St. Norbert NDP GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Liberal GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC HOWARD, Jennifer Fort Rouge NDP IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Richmond NDP JHA, Bidhu Radisson NDP KOSTYSHYN, Ron, Hon. Swan River NDP LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas NDP LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. Dawson Trail NDP MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor, Hon.

Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP MARTIN, Shannon Morris PC MELNICK, Christine Riel NDP MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East PC NEVAKSHONOFF, Thomas, Hon. Interlake NDP OSWALD, Theresa Seine River NDP PALLISTER, Brian Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine Midland PC PETTERSEN, Clarence Flin Flon NDP PIWNIUK, Doyle Arthur-Virden PC REID, Daryl, Hon. Transcona NDP ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Kewatinook NDP RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia NDP ROWAT, Leanne Riding Mountain PC SARAN, Mohinder, Hon. The Maples NDP SCHULER, Ron St. Paul PC SELBY, Erin Southdale NDP SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo PC STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin NDP SWAN, Andrew Minto NDP WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WIGHT, Melanie, Hon. Burrows NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC

1195 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, May 27, 2015 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Mr. Speaker: O Eternal and Almighty God, from Whom all power and wisdom come, we are assembled here before Thee to frame s uch laws as may tend to the welfare and prosperity of our province. Grant, O merciful God, we pray Thee, that we may desire only that which is in accordance with Thy will, that we may seek it with wisdom and know it with certainty and accomplish it perfectly for the glory and honour of Thy name and for the welfare of all our people. Amen. Good afternoon, everyone. Please be seated.

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 29–The Civil Service Superannuation Amendment Act Hon. Kerri Irvin -Ross (Minister responsible for the Civil Service ): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Education, that Bill 29, The Civil Service Superannuation Amendment Act, be now read a first time. Motion presented. Ms. Irvin -Ross: The amendments proposed modernize the act and ensures it responds to the changes in federal legislation. In 2012, the federal government increased the age for old- age security benefits to start from 65 to 67.

In light of this, the new act will eliminate the option to integrate supe rannuation allowance with old-age security. These amendments also enable administrative housekeeping amendments including clarifying dis - ability entitlement to ensure that additional pensions to persons who have received long- term disability benefits may apply to employees of a service provider, setting out clear timelines for pension applications and updating the provisions with outdated references and repealing provisions that no longer have effect. Mr.

Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Any further introduction of bills? PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: Seeing none, we'll move on to petitions. Provincial Trunk Highway 206 and Cedar Avenue in Oakbank–Pedestrian Safety Mr. Ron Schuler (St. Paul): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows:

(1) Every day, hundreds of Manitoba children walk to school in Oakbank and must cross PTH 206 at the intersection with Cedar Avenue.

(2) There have been many dangerous incidents where drivers use the right shoulder to pass vehicles that have stopped at the traffic light waiting to turn left at this intersection.

(3) Law enforcement officials have ident ified this intersection as a hot spot of concern for the safety of schoolchildren, drivers and emergency responders. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge that the provincial government improve the safety at the pedestrian corridor at the inter -

section of PTH 206 and Cedar Avenue in Oakbank by considering such steps as highlighting pavement markings to better indicate the location of the shoulders and crosswalk, as well as installing a lighted crosswalk structure. This is signed by A. Cook, D. Tratch, N. Rayner and many, many other fine Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: In keeping with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to have been received by the House. Proposed Lac du Bonnet Marina– Request for Research into Benefits and Costs Mr. Wayne Ewasko (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And these are the reasons for this petition:

1196 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 2015 Lac du Bonnet is a recreational area with great natural beauty. The Winnipeg River is one of the greatest distinguishing cultural and recreational resources in that area. Manitoba marinas increase recreational access and increase the desirability of properties in their host communities. The people of Lac du Bonnet overw helmingly support a public harbourfront marina in Lac du Bonnet.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to consider collaborating with other levels of government to research the economic benefits an d construction costs of a marina in Lac du Bonnet. This petition is signed by B. Laba, D. Ogren, C. Mitchell and many, many more fine Manitobans, Mr. Speaker. Province-Wide Long-Term Care– Review Need and Increase Spaces Mr. Cliff Graydon (Emerson): Good afternoon, Mr. Speaker. I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And this is the background to this petition:

(1) There are currently 125 licensed personal-care homes, PCHs, across Manitoba, consisting of less than 10,000 beds.

(2) All trends point to an increasingly aging population who will require additional personal-care-home facilities.

(3) By some estimates, Manitoba n– Manitoba will require an increase of more than 5,100 personal-care-home beds by 2036.

(4) The number of Manitobans with Alzheimer 's disease or another dementia -related illness who will require personal -care-home services are steadily increasing and are threatening to double within the current generation.

(5) The last personal -care-home review in many areas, including the Swan River Valley area currently under the administration of Prairie Mountain regional health authority, was conducted in 2008.

(6) Average occupancy rates for personal -care homes across the province are exceeding 97 per cent, with some regions, such as the Swan River Valley, witnessing 100 per cent occupancy rates.

(7) These high occupancy rates are creating the conditions where many individuals requiring long-term care are being displaced far away from their families and home communities. We petition the Legislative Assembly as follows:

(1) To urge the provincial government to consider immediately enacting a province- wide review of the long- term-care needs of residents of Manitoba. And (2) t o urge the provincial government t o recognize the stresses placed upon the health- care system by the current and continuous aging population and consider increasing the availability of long-term-care spaces, PCH beds, in communities across the province. And this petition has been signed by V. Bauman, I. Muller, H. Muller and many, many more fine Manitobans. Cottage Fees and Rents– Transparency and Accountability Mr. Cliff Cullen ( Spruce Woods): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the following petiti on to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition:

(1) The provincial government has treated Manitoba cottagers with disrespect by increasing cottage fees and rents.

(2) Manitoba cottagers are willing to pay their fair share, but the provincial government has arbitrarily decided to raise cottage fees and rents by as much as 750 per cent without any clear indication that the money will be used for improved amenities or services for cottagers. Under sections 18(3) and 20 of The Provincial Parks Act, the financial estimates an d statements of each park district are to b e prepared and maintained for review by any owner or occupier in a park district.

(4) The member from Flin Flon was quoted in Hansard on March 27 th, 2014, suggesting that cottages be removed from provincial parks and be made part of a municipality.

May 27, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1197 We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to honour the requirements found in The Provincial Parks Act and to consider working with Manitoba cottagers to ensure t ransparency and accountability when it comes to their service fees and rents. This petition is signed by M. Jamiesson, C. Forbes, J. Johnstone and many other fine Manitobans. * (13:40) Minnesota-Manitoba Transmission Line Route– Information Request Mr. Dennis Smook (La Verendrye) : I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows:

(1) The Minnesota-Manitoba transmission line is a 500- kilovolt alternating -current transmission line set to be located in southeastern Manitoba that will cross into the US border south of Piney, Manitoba.

(2) The line has an in -service date of 2020 and will run approximately 150 kilometres with tower heights expected to reach between 40 and 60 metr es and be located every four to five hundred metres.

(3) The preferred route designated for the line will see hydro towers come in close proximity to the community of La Broquerie and many other communities in Manitoba's southeast rather than an alternate route that was also considered.

(4) The alternate route would've seen the line run further east, avoid densely populated areas and eventually terminate at the same spot at the US border.

(5) The Progressive Conservative caucus has repeatedly asked for information about the routing of the line and its proximity to densely populated areas and has yet to receive any response.

(6) Landowners all across Manitoba are con - cerned about the impact hydro line routing could have on land values. We petition the Le gislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro to immediately provide a written explanation to all members of the Legislative Assembly regarding what criteria were used and the reasons for selecting the p referred routing for the Minnesota-Manitoba transmission line, including whether or not this routing represented the least 'intrushive'–intrusive option to the residents of Taché, Springfield, Ste.

Anne, Stuartburn, Piney and La Broquerie. This petition is signed by J. Rak, E. Rak, L. Weiss and many more fine Manitobans. Province-Wide Long-Term Care– Review Need and Increase Spaces Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows: There are currently 125 licensed personal -care homes, PCHs, across Manitoba, consisting of less than 10,000 beds. All trends point to an increasingly aging population who will require additional personal - care-home facilities.

By some estimates, Manitoba will require an increase of more than 5,100 personal-care-home beds by 2036. The number of Manitobans with Alzheimer 's disease or another dementia -related illness who will require personal -care-home services are steadily increasing and are threatening to double within the current generation. The last personal -care-home review in many areas, including the Swan River Valley area currently under administration of Prairie Mountain regional health authority, was conducted in 2008.

Average occupancy rates for personal -care homes across the province are exceeding 97 per cent, with some regions, such as Swan River Valley, wit - nessing 100 per cent occupancy rates. These high occupancy rates are creating the conditions where many indi viduals requiring long-term care are being displaced far away from their families and home community. We petition the Legislative Assembly as follows: To urge the provincial government to consider immediately enacting a provin ce-wide review of the long-term-care needs of residents of Manitoba.

1198 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 2015 And t o urge the provincial government to recognize the stresses placed upon the health- care system by the current and continuous aging population and consider increasing the availability of long-term-care spaces, P CH beds, in communities across the province. And this is signed by G. Wagner, S. Windsor, F. Howard and many others, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Ian Wishart (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petit ion to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background of–to this petition is as follows:

(1) There are currently 125 licensed personal - care homes across Manitoba, consisting of less than 10,000 beds.

(2) All trends point to an increasingly aging population who will require additional personal-care-home facilities.

(3) By some estimates, Manitoba will be required to increase–will require an increase of more than 5,100 personal-care-home beds by 2036.

(4) The number of Manitobans with Alzheimer's disease and other dementia -related illness who will require personal -care-home services are steadily increasing and are threatening to double within the current generation.

(5) The last personal -care-home review in many areas, including the Swan River Valley area currently under administration of the Prairie Mountain regional health authority, was conducted in 2008.

(6) An average occupancy rate for personal-care homes across the province are exceeding 97 per cent, with some regions, such as the Swan River Va lley, witnessing 100 per cent occupancy rates.

(7) These high occupancy rates are creating conditions where many individuals requiring long-term care are being displaced far away from their families and home community. We petition the Legislative Assembly as follows: To urge the provincial government to consider immediately enacting a provin ce-wide review of the long-term-care needs of residents of Manitoba.

And (2) t o urge the provincial government to recognize the stresses placed upon the healt h-care system by the current and continuous ly aging population and consider increasing the availability of long-term-care spaces in communities across the province. This petition 's signed by R. Branconnier, J. Miller and R. Miller and many, many more fin e Manitobans. Mr. Stuart Briese (Agassiz): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

The background for this petition is–follows: There are currently 125 licensed personal -care homes, PCHs, across Manitoba, consis ting of less than 10,000 beds. All trends point to an increasing aging– increasingly aging population who will require additional personal-care-home facilities. By some estimates, Manitoba will require an increase of more than 5,100 personal-care-home beds by 2036. The number of Manitobans with Alzheimer 's or another dementia -related illness who will require personal-care-home services are steadily increasing and are threatening to double within the current generation.

Last personal -care-home review in m any areas, including the Swan River Valley area currently under administration of the Prairie Mountain regional health authority, was conducted in 2008. Average occupancy rates for personal -care homes across the province are exceeding 97 per cent, with some regions, such as the Swan River Valley, witnessing 100 per cent occupancy rates. These high occupancy rates are creating the conditions where many individuals requiring long-term care are being displaced far away from their families and home community.

We petition the Legislative Assembly as follows: To urge the provincial government to consider immediately enacting a provin ce-wide review of the long-term-care needs of residents of Manitoba. And t o urge the provincial government to rec - ognize the str esses placed upon the health -care system by the current and continuous aging popu- lation and consider increasing the availability of long-term-care spaces, PCH beds, in communities across the province.

May 27, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1199 This petition is signed by J. Henderson, B. Henderson, E. Frampton and many, many other fine Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: Committee reports? TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation ): Pleased to table the supplementary Estimates for MIT. Mr. Speaker: Any further tabling of reports? Seeing none, ministerial statements? Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to oral questions, I'd like to draw the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today members of the Manitoba division of the MS Society, including Donna Boyd, Signy Hansen, Darell Hominuk, Lizelle Mendoza and Shirley Atkins, who are the guests of the honourable Minister of Education and Advanced Learning (Mr. Allum).

And also in the public gallery this afternoon we have with us from Juniper School 36 grade 8 students under the direction of Lorie Henderson and Lucy Mayor, and this group is located in the con- stituency of the honourable Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation. And also seated in the public ga llery this afternoon we have from Warren Collegiate, we have 50 grade 11 students under the direction of Ms. Lee Stewart, and this group is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Lakeside (Mr. Eichler).

On behalf of all honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon. * (13:50) ORAL QUESTIONS NDP Severance Packages Compensation Disclosure Mr. Brian Pallister (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my questions today concern the continued cover-up by the Premier of the information related to this departure tax that he's foisted on Manitobans, bonuses that were paid ad hoc to departing members of the Premier's staff.

There is, in the freedom of information act, the clause which states that there is a duty for the government to assist, and it clearly states: "The head of a public body shall make every reasonable effort"–we know the importance, Mr.

Speaker, of the word shall in these places –"shall make every reasonable effort to assist an ap plicant and to respond without delay, openly, accurately and completely." It should be noted that in 1999 in spring Estimates when then -opposition leader Gary Doer asked the premier of the day for information on the severance that was paid, that premier released the information to the dollar and included a formula for how the amount was determined.

So I have to ask the Premier: Why not do the right thing, obey the laws of the province and stop covering up the information on a $670,000 bonus that he's billed wrongly to Manitoba taxpayers? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr. Speaker, what we've seen is that the severance payments paid in the '98-99 period for seven 'steef' –seven key staff members were roughly equivalent to what were paid out this time, $650,000 in today's dollars versus $670,000, roughly comparable compensation for people that were severed through mutual agreement. And, Mr.

Speaker, that's just another example of the double standard of the member opposite. He never disclosed that. He never discussed that. He never put that on the record. He –neither did he put on the record his own severance payments at the federal and provincial level. Those were disclosed by the Canadian Taxpayers Federation. I know the Canadian Taxpayers Federation is very keen to pursue these issues. I only hope the member opposite would thank him for disclosing information he himself would not disclose. Mr. Pallister: Well, the Premier is on his tired talking points all right, Mr.

Speaker, but the fact is when the information was requested by Mr. Doer, it was disclosed to the dollar, as was the formula. So, in fact, the double standard lies across the way with the Premier, and he needs to search out some new talking points. Now, he is breaking the law of the province because he is hiding behind a false claim of privacy.

Section 17(4) of the freedom of information act provides a number of examples where disclosure of severance agreements is not –I repeat, not –an invasion of privacy. Quote, if the information concerns the details of a financial contract to supply services, it should be released, it should be revealed, it should be disclosed; and if the information refers

1200 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 2015 to a discretionary benefit of a financial nature, exactly what a severance payment is, it must be disclosed. Why is the Premier failing to abide by the laws of our province and covering up information which must be, by our laws, released so that Manitobans can have a look at it since they are the ones being asked to pay the bill? Why doesn't the Premier do the right thing, let them find out the details? Mr. Selinger: Again, Mr. Speaker, the member pursues a double standard.

He says, on the record, I'm not talking about individual staffers with you guys and I never will, and yet he wants other people to talk about individual staffers on this side of the House. One rule for him, another rule for other people. The double standard never stops from the member opposite. He may call it a talking point. We call it continuous and chronic behaviour on the part of the Leader of the Opposition, and that's something that's not new but what we see frequently in the House. We take the best advice we can get from human resource professionals and their legal advisers. That's the advice we follow.

We fully comply with all the legislation requirements in Manitoba based on the advice we get, and we will continue to do that, Mr. Speaker. And I remind the member again, he never disclosed his severance payments; that was the Taxpayers Federation that did that. Mr. Pallister: I remind the Premier that it's not his money. It belongs to Manitobans, and the Premier is breaking his own laws. The Premier has also stated on the record in this place that the information regarding severance will be in the public accounts document s this fall. However, that is not the case.

First of all, when the information is released, it will only be partial in nature, and it will not disclose the actual detail which Gary Filmon disclosed when Gary Doer asked him for it. And if the contracts for severance were signed after April 1st of this year –in other words, if the government deliberately delayed signing those agreements until after April 1st of this year –then this partial information will only be made available in a year and a half from now, Mr. Speaker.

Will the Premier admit that, far from being transparent, far from abiding by the spirit, the principle and the letter of the freedom of information act, he is deliberately manipulating and covering up information and hiding secret payments until after the next provincial election? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, we put the amount of money out there, $670,000. We never had any disclosure from the members opposite of the '98 -99 payments of $650,000. The member couldn't even recount the amount of money that was available; he was completely unaware of it.

We never saw him disclose his severance payments, either at the federal level or the provincial level; the Canadian Taxpayers Federation did that on his behalf. Mr. Speaker, we follow the advice we get from our HR people and our legal advisers that advise those people. We fully comply with the public sector accountability act. We will continue to do that. And I say to the member opposite, he continues to pursue this line of questioning, but he doesn't want to d iscuss about his own hidden agenda to reduce jobs in Manitoba. He said he would never build hydro for export purposes. There goes 10,000 jobs, Mr.

Speaker. Why don't we discuss that in this legislature, why he wants to have less Manitobans working, less re liable electricity in Manitoba? Why doesn't he want to discuss those issues? Provincial Deficit Balanced Budget Projection Mr. Cameron Friesen (Morden -Winkler): Mr. Speaker, what's clear is that no lawyer would've advised the First Minister of that kind of thing. He should take responsibility. Mr. Speaker, yesterday in Committee of Supply, I asked the Finance Minister if and when he plans to balance the budget, and the Finance Minister responded that there are 120 entities that are included in the

summary budget and some of them, he says, the government has no control over. The Finance Minister would not indicate if and when the government would balance the budget because he said he has no control over the operation of total government. Will the Finance Minister set the record straight and indicate when he will balance the budget? Hon. Greg Dewar (Minister of Finance ): What also was –I raised yesterday in the Estimates was

May 27, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1201 that the members opposite, when they went and knocked on doors in the last electi on, this member–[interjection] He knocked on doors in the last election. He went to all the homes in Morden-Winkler and he told everyone in Morden-Winkler that he –that it was their policy, their plan, to return to surplus in 2018. When they knocked on doors in Steinbach, Mr. Speaker, they said they're going to return to balance in 2018. When they knocked on doors in Tuxedo, they said they're going to return to balance in 2018. That is our plan, Mr. Speaker.

We'll return to balance in 2018. Mr. Friesen: I want to be clear. Last year in the budget, in the budget papers, there was a projection, a definite date indicated in the future when the budget would be in balance. The budget previous to that one also projected a surplus at a future date, the budget before that one and so on. However, Mr. Speaker, in this Finance Minister's 2015 budget, there is no date indicated by when the total budget is projected to be in balance. He must have a projection. Will he share the total projection with this Chamber? Mr. Dewar : As we discussed yesterday, we're still reporting on

summary budget. That will not change. We don't believe that wild fluctuations in

summary revenues should dictate how we are providing service to Manitobans, like health care. While I'm on my f eet, it gives me a chance to talk about Manitoba's economic performance's ranking for the last year: full -time employment, No. 1, Manitoba's No. 1; total employment, Manitoba is No. 1; private employment, Manitoba is No. 1. We make no apologies for gr owing the economy. The only ones who are disappointed are the members opposite. Mr. Friesen: Well, Mr. Speaker, one thing's for certain, there's wild fluctuations between what they say they will do and what they actually do. Mr.

Speaker, the Finance Mini ster has to understand that we're talking about the total budget for the Province of Manitoba. The Finance Minister must understand that the total debt results from the total accumulated budget deficits, and the Finance Minister must understand that debt s ervicing payments are made on the total debt. The Finance Minister says the government has no control over the government's total spending. Will the Finance Minister indicate if he ever expects to balance the total budget? * (14:00) Mr. Dewar : As we discussed earlier, discussed in Estimates yesterday, Mr.

Speaker, we're still reporting on

summary. That has not changed. We don't think that weather, for example, should impact our ability to provide health care or education to Manitobans. Members opp osite, they have a different plan. Their plan is to kill our growth. As I mentioned, in three or four categories we lead the nation in economic growth. Conference Board of Canada predicts that Manitoba will lead the nation in 2015- 2016. We're creating re cord jobs in this economy in this province. Winnipeg is one of the fastest growing cities in western Canada. Again, we make no apologies for being No. 1.

Winnipeg Police Service Reasons for Increased Costs Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, last week the Winnipeg Police Service released its strategic plan, and I want to thank the men and women of the Winnipeg Police Service for all that they do for all of us. It was noticed within the–it was noted within the plan, Mr. Speaker, that the cost of policing has increased 64 per cent over the last decade, and much of that cost isn't attributable to Criminal Code violations or the things that people might associate police as normally doing.

In fact, a large part of those costs are because police are o ut there on the street looking for missing young people who are under the care of CFS who have left the care of CFS because they were housed inappropriately. Can the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) acknowledge that it's going to be difficult to get the cost of policing down when this government is so badly mismanaging CFS, which is costing our men and women on the police force time and money? Hon. James Allum (Acting Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Of course, I thank the member across the floor for the question.

In fact, Winnipeg Police Service does do an extraordinary job. Chief Clunis is doing an extraordinary job; so is his senior executive team.

1202 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 2015 During my time as the minister of Justice I got to know those folks very well, and I can tell you –and I can tell you –that we had a great relationship when we–because we agreed on three basic principles: (1) yes, we need to suppress crime; (2) we need to intervene when we can to help folks who need that help, but most importantly, Mr. Speaker, we need to prevent crime. Mr. Speaker, on that side of the House, they don't believe in No. 2 or No. 3. Mr. Goertzen: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder, in the Minister of Education's four months as the minister of Justice, if he was able to understand that pol ice are often being called to situations where they take people under detainment when they're experiencing a mental health crisis, and then they bring them to the hospital and they have to wait because there isn't the appropriate care at the hospital. Oft en the police are waiting there for hours to try to find somebody to deal with the individual who is having a mental health experience.

I know that is the situation in Steinbach; it's a situation in Brandon; it's a situation in Winnipeg. Police across the province deal with this, and police are waiting at our hospitals for hours. How are the police in our province, whether it's WPS or otherwise, expected to get costs down of policing services when they're dealing with a health-care crisis in –a health -care system in crisis and it causes them to wait for hours to get assistance for somebody? Mr. Allum: I just might add that I would rather have four months in Justice than a lifetime in opposition, as the member from Steinbach does. But, Mr.

Speaker, one of the things that I learned during my time in Justice was that there was –I had the chance to meet with the Big City Mayors' Caucus around the very issue raised by the member opposite. We agreed to work together to try to adjust those issues. We have a mental health crisis support unit, as the member well knows, we –but we –more importantly, we are working with our partners across Manitoba to address those issues to make sure people get the help they need when they need it. Mr. Goertzen: It hasn't been a lifet ime in opposition, it just feels like it. But that's going to change soon. Mr.

Speaker, police are not only consuming their time looking for kids who are under the care of CFS who have left inappropriate housing, they're not only consumed of their time going to hospitals and trying to get assistance for those who are dealing with mental health issues, they're also wasting their time in court trying to testify when cases are getting remanded over and over and over again. The Winnipeg Police Service is rig ht; they're having a difficult time controlling costs, and they've increased 64 per cent over the last decade.

But a large part of that is because of the mismanagement of this government, whether it comes to the court system, the health-care system or CFS. Why won't this government acknowledge that it's going to be difficult to manage police costs when this government doesn't know how to manage a government? Mr. Allum: Well, Mr. Speaker, you know, what we've done is work in partnership with both the RCMP and the Winnipeg Police Service as well as all of the municipal police services across the province in order to ensure that we have a balanced approach to when we're addressing justice issues.

As I said earlier, there is a place for suppression, crime su ppression, but there's also the need for intervention, and then there's also the most important thing, is to intervene to make sure that we keep people out of the justice system in the first place, and if they have been in the justice system one time, to make sure that they don't return. Mr. Speaker, this government puts a premium on preventing and on prevention, and we will continue to work with our partners across Manitoba in order to ensure that we're preventing people from entering the justice system.

Zebra Mussel Infestation Use of Detection Dogs Mr. Shannon Martin (Morris): Mr. Speaker, detection dogs have been used to great effectiveness by many jurisdictions in the fight against zebra mussels. I'm wondering if the minister can tell us how many detection dogs are currently deployed by Manitoba in its fight against zebra mussels. Hon. Thomas Nevakshonoff (Minister of Conservation and Water Stewardship): I thank the member for the question. It gives me the opportunity to elaborate somewhat on our policy regarding zebra mussels.

And I'd like to just begin my remarks by acknowledging the good works of the current Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh), who in his

May 27, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1203 time in my office now, Conservation and Water Stewardship, was very active, very proactive, very aggressive struggle –with the struggle against zebra mussels. And we undertook a very aggressive program last year. This year, again, we are stepping out to make sure that this affliction is conta ined to the best of our ability. And, yes, using detection dogs is a part of our strategy. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Establishment of Protocols Mr. Martin: I appreciate the minister's confirmation that there are zero detection dogs currently in use. Mr.

Speaker, zebra mussels were first discovered in the Red River basin over six years ago, and despite the ecological and environmental threat they pose for our waterways, the NDP have no established protocol to prevent their spread. Parks Canada has announced boats who go to Riding Mountain will have to go through a free mandatory inspection. Can the minister advise why his government has failed to initiate a similar protocol? Mr. Nevakshonoff: Once again, I'd like to just comment that we are now entering i nto phase 2, into year 2 of our struggle against zebra mussels.

This is a very dangerous affliction that we're facing, and detection and the prevention of spreading to other bodies of water is our first and foremost objective here. In addition to the dog teams –and members opposite might want to pay attention–we'll be possibly announcing something in the near future in this regard: decontamination units to go out there, an awareness campaign so that people are aware how easily zebra mussels can be spread. Anybody that has a boat knows that a little bit of water in the livewell, that's where the spread occurs, so– Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable minister's time on this question has elapsed. Use of Potassium Chloride Mr. Martin: No dogs, no prot ocol, so we're oh for two so far. Let's go for three. Mr. Speaker, the minister's predecessor spent half a million dollars dumping 400 tons of potash in four harbours. Despite his standing on the SS Minnow and declaring mission accomplished, those samples, mussels were found almost immedi - ately thereafter. At what point is the minister planning on resealing affected harbours and reapplying potash, or does he even have a plan? Mr. Nevakshonoff: Well, Mr.

Speaker, once again, I would ask the member opposite to pay attention rather than just spouting off his lines there. He should be aware that we are in year 2 of our struggle and we are in –entering into phase 2 of our struggle to combat the plague of zebra mussels. Detection dogs, decontamination units, awareness campaigns, a scientific advisory committee to advise us, all of these things combined, Mr. Speaker, will aid us in fighting this year and continuing to fight against this plague in the years to come. Paramedic Association of Manitoba Consultations Regarding Self-Regulation Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, twice this week the Minister of Health has said that the Health Professions Advisory Council is working with the Paramedic Association of Manitoba regarding the further consultations that will be occurring related to self -regulation. Twice she was wrong. Why did she say that they are working together when the paramedics can't even get a meeting with the advisory council until the fall? * (14:10) Hon. Sharon Blady (Minister of Health): I'd like to thank the member for the question. As I've said earlier, there is work going forward.

HPAC has done amazing work, and our first responders do make a difference. And if we're going to move forward into self -regulation, we're going to do it right. And as I've mentioned earlier, there is communication and the meetings have been set up. Work will keep going forward. And, again, the move to self-regulation needs to be done right, needs to be done prudently, and I look forward to the work that Mr. Duboff and the members of HPAC will be doing with PAM. Whether those meetings happen in the fall, again, that's their schedules, their timing.

This is not about political interference and rushing the timeline forward; it's about meeting when they can meet to do the job right.

1204 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 2015 Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, in its report to the Minister of Health, the advisory council recom - mended that further consultation with practitioners and stakeholders should be organized by the Paramedic Association of Manitoba. For some reason, the minister ignored that recommendation and instead, in a letter, she directed the council itself to develop and undertake the consultations. Why did she do that? Ms.

Blady: I will again remind the member opposite that in the letter that was sent to me with the report, the council asked that we meet to discuss the recommendations. In that meeting discussing the recommendations, it was working with HPAC, and it was HPAC's deter mination that they would be the 'bens'–best able to facilitate working with PAM. Their own recommendations state, on pages 3 and 37, as well as in the opening of the –that the idea of consensus-building processes for the purposes of working with the practitioners and shareholders.

They need to work together, they will work together, and they will come to the right conclusions about what is needed for self-regulation. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, the advisory committee were the ones that indicated they thou ght Paramedic Association of Manitoba should be the ones in charge of that consultation and leading that consultation and organized by the Paramedic Association. She directed them otherwise. She turned the whole thing over to the advisory council. So I would like to ask her to tell us why she is trying to stall the efforts of the paramedics towards self-regulation.

Can the Minister of Health tell Manitobans: What is her hidden agenda in stalling this process? Ms. Blady: Again, like to thank the member for the question and to again clarify that this is supposed to be–excuse me–it's supposed to be a non- political, non-partisan process, and it is quite unfortunate that members opposite really want to keep continuing to treat this as a political football. I met with HPAC, and the consensus was, the understanding was and the recommendation from Mr. Duboff himself was that HPAC facilitate this next process. This is the first time that it's happened.

So HPAC gave the direction that they would be the ones best suited to work with the Paramedic Association, despite the conspiracy theories of members opposite. Health-Care Services Doctor Retention Mr. Cliff Cullen ( Spruce Woods ): Well, Mr. Speaker, we'd hate to see politics get in the way of progress here in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, not only are NDP staffers bailing out of the province, but so are Manitoba doctors. We have found that over 2,300 doctors have left the province under the NDP's watch. Clearly, this is not an issue the NDP want to talk about.

Now, it's one thing to attract doctors to the province of Manitoba, but it's clearly another to keep them here. Will the minister be open and transparent and indicate to the House why these doctors have left Manitoba? Hon. Sharon Blady (Minister of Health): I'd like to thank the member for the question and remind him that while we have more and more doctors coming into the province, we also have things like doctors retiring, doctors passing on. When we talk about new doctors, the math on the other side fails to recognize that we actually have 665 net new doctors.

In other words, each of those doctors has been replaced plus an additional 665. And, again, it's been those kinds of investments. We've increased class sizes, we've increased training, and this year I w as happy to welcome 107 new doctors, including a whole bunch that are eager to get out to rural Manitoba. Mr. Cullen : Well, Mr. Speaker, I don't think the minister understands just how dire the situation is. In the Prairie Mountain region alone we have over 40 doctor vacancies, and doctors continue to leave. Two out of the three doctors in Glenboro have just tendered their resignation.

This will add to the list of vacancies. This emergency room already shares on-call with another facility 30 minutes away with the only doctor remaining. Is it this minister's agenda to close this emergency room as well? Ms. Blady: I can assure all Manitobans that our agenda on health care is to keep training and recruiting and retaining more doctors and to do so in rural Manitoba, hence our Physician Resettlement Fund, which is part of our recruitment and retention for both specialists and family practitioners. That's a fund that didn't exist in the 1990s.

And so, again, this fund is designed to incent physicians to move to

May 27, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1205 areas of Manitoba where they're needed most, particularly in rural and northern areas, and the amount of funding a recipient will receive is depend- ent upon where the physician chooses to relocate. So we are working to get doctors throughout the province. Mr. Cullen : Well, Mr. Speaker, here are the facts: 2,300 doctors have left under their watch. We've got over 40 vacancies in the Prairie Mountain region. We've got at least 23 emergency rooms closed. Altona's ER was closed last week. It looks like Glenboro's next on the list.

This is clearly a sign of a system in crisis. So is it the minister's agenda to simply keep closing emergency rooms in Manitoba? Ms. Blady : Mr. Speaker, again, I have no secret agenda. I have a very open agenda to keep –I come from a background where I used to train nurses. I was–wonderful to see how we had the increase in nursing staffing, as well as the increases in doctors.

And I can assure members that last year alone, in terms of the international medical grads, we had –we worked with the RHAs and we brought new inter - national medical graduates to Swan River, Morris, Killarney, Gillam, Thompson, Ashern, Garden Hill, Pine Falls, Thompson, Russell, Gladstone and Vita. And we're going to keep bringing more doctors and more nurses to rural Manitoba. Energy East Pipeline Electricity Usage Rates Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, from Manitoba Hydro's most recent annual report, the delivery of 32.9 billion kilowatt hours of electricity at a cost of just over $1.78 billion means it cost Manitoba Hydro, on average, 5.4 cents per kilowatt hour to deliver electricity. Can the Premier tell this Legislature how much the Energy East Pip eline will be charged for the electricity it uses? Will the rate be, at the very least, the actual cost to produce and deliver electricity to the pipeline? Hon.

Greg Selinger (Premier): I would like to thank the member from River Heights for the question about whether or not there's –what the rate will be for hydroelectricity if and when it's used by the Energy East Pipeline if and when it's approved by the National Energy Board. We will be making a very vigorous intervention to ensure that water is prote cted in Manitoba and the communities are safe and that the environment is protected. And if they decide –if the project is approved by the National Energy Board, we will ensure that there's no subsidy on the energy if they choose to use Manitoba Hydro.

I understand currently they use gas. If they want to switch to Manitoba Hydro, they will obviously have less greenhouse gas emissions, and it will not be subsidized. Mr. Gerrard: It's difficult to understand why Manitoba Hydro is asking for a rate increase of 3.95 per cent at the same time as the government is considering selling a large amount of power to the Energy East Pipeline at much lower rates than Manitoba's residential customers will be paying.

I ask the Premier to tell the Legislature today: Will the Energy East Pipeline be charged the same rates as Manitoba's residential customers, including, should it pass, the proposed 3.95 per cent increase? Mr. Selinger: Once again, we're going to make a full intervention to ensure that water is protected in Manitoba, that communities are safe and that we also ensure that the environment's going to be protected. If and when that project is approved, and they decide to select Manitoba Hydro for their boost er stations for that transmission for that pipeline, we will ensure that there is no subsidy to that pipeline.

I put that on the record with the member of the Legislature. And when that day comes, we will make sure that there is no subsidy for that hydroel ectricity, if they choose to use it, Mr. Speaker. That will be our position. * (14:20) Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, the Premier has repeatedly said that he does not support a Clean Environment Commission review of the Energy East Pipeline. Liberals believe that instead of today's NDP government arrogantly dictating what is in the best interests of Manitobans, all Manitobans should be allowed the best possible input into consideration of the Energy East Pipeline.

What message are Manitobans expected to hear when today's NDP government limits public input on the Energy East Pipeline by not holding Clean Environment Commission hearings and, at the same time, today's NDP considers providing power to

1206 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 2015 Energy East at lower rates than Manitoba's resi - dential customers pay? Mr. Selinger: Once again, Mr. Speaker, the member from River Heights clearly hasn't heard the answer I gave to the previous two questions. There will be no subsidized rate. There will be no rate that subsidizes any hypothetical use of hydro going forward. I do remind the member opposite that the Liberal Party of Canada supports the Energy East Pipeline, and he's a Liberal so he's supporting the pipeline. Presumably he thinks it's a good idea, Mr. Speaker.

We want to make sure that water's safe in Manitoba, we want to make sure communities are safe, we want to make sure the environment is protected. And there's no subsidy for the pipeline for Manitoba Hydro. That will protect Manitoba ratepayers; that will protect Manitoba residential consumers a nd every other consumer in Manitoba. They will in no way be subsidizing a pipeline going through Manitoba. Disabled and Special Needs Youth Visit to SSCY Centre Mr.

Ted Marcelino (Tyndall Park): A building at 1155 Notre Dame in the Weston community of Tyndall Park has been refurbished, refreshed, and it will house the Specialized Services for Children and Youth. Can the Minister of Health please tell us what exciting news we have for that facility? Hon. Sharon Blady (Minister of Health): I don't know about other parents, but I always like to think that our children's –with our children's potential, the sky's the limit. And it was wonderful to be with my colleague from Tyndall Park, with the Minister of Children and Youth Opportunities (Ms. Wight) and the Premier (Mr.

Selinger) today to visit a place where exactly that kind of potential will be fulfilled at SSCY, the Specialized Services for Children and Youth. It's a wonderful partnership between Manitoba Health, Family Services and the WRHA, as well as a number of community service providers. The agencies will be located on -site that include the Rehabilitation Centre for Children, Manitoba society for–Society for Manitobans with Disabilities and Community Respite Service.

I hope I have t ime in my limited answer here to give the specialized services list that will be at SSCY: child development services; central intake and delivery of therapy services, including audi - ology, occupational, physical and speech language therapies; a communication disorders clinic; rehabili- tative services, including– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable minister's time on this question has elapsed. Health-Care Services Doctor Recruitment Mr. Wayne Ewasko (Lac du Bonnet): The Health Minister and her NDP government –we better restart this, Mr. Speaker. I'm not sure if she's quite finished. Mr.

Speaker, this Health Minister and her NDP government continue to have a problem with doctor recruitment. NDP waste is hurting front -line services. I would like to take this time to commend community volunteers and leaders on the northeast health committee for their dedication and com - mitment to taking it on into their own hands to recruit doctors to our wonderful region of Manitoba. This week they are hosting a doc tor and their family to show off what we have to offer. Why are hard -working Manitobans doing this minister's job? Hon.

Sharon Blady (Minister of Health): And I, too, would like to thank community members, because it is in fact RHAs and communities that work together on doctor recruitment. I don't know if the member opposite seems to think that I post the ads and personally interview every doctor and then hand place them throughout the province. It's kind of a reflection of his ignorance of the system if that's how he thinks this operates. We–it's about –we put the funding together and the RHAs work with communities to make sure that they get the right doctor in the right place for their communities. Mr. Ewasko: Classy, Mr.

Speaker, pretty classy in the House today, pretty classy. Mr. Speaker, Manitobans can't believe a word that this minister is saying. Under this NDP govern - ment, we have seen a major doctor recruitment crisis. To fund these recruitment efforts, local municipalities are being asked to chip in from their sources of revenue to aid in this project which is being undertaken in the Interlake -Eastern Regional Health Authority.

May 27, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1207 Manitobans are stepping up while this minister is stepping out or too busy. What is she busy doing? Ms. Blady: Mr. Speaker, like to assure Manitobans I was busy, along with members of our department, negotiating a contract with Doctors Manitoba, for one thing. That's making sure that our doctors are well paid and we're working together on appro- priateness of care and billing, ensuring that the best services are provided to our patients and our Manitoba citizens. Mr.

Speaker, w e have more–we are training more professionals, hiring more doctors, and our Family Doctor Finder has already connected over 20,000 Manitobans with front-line care. And so, again, we're working for Manitobans, and we appreciate the work that the RHAs and communities do in supporting doctors coming to their communities. Mr. Ewasko: Well, obviously this minister's been up to something, because it took her over three months to respond to a doctor retention issue we had in the IERHA when it was even too late, Mr. Speaker, between the months of December and March. Mr.

Speaker, 2,300 doctors have left this wonderful province of ours. The Interlake -Eastern Regional Health Authority has 30 doctor vacancies. The Prairie Mountain regional health authority has 40-plus doctors missing in their area, 24- plus ERs closed. The Pine Falls -Pinawa and Beausejour ERs are closed more often than they're open. This minister continues to fail Manitobans due to her inability to fulfill her responsibility of responding to individuals in a timely manner. Leaving these people with serious concerns in the dark for over three months is unacceptable. Where is this Health Minister? Ms. Blady: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to thank the member for the question. The member opposite mentions vacancies; vacancies mean there's money on the table for the doctors to be there. That's what this department does, that's what this government does, is make sure that the money is there. Members opposite, how they address their vacancy issue, they just cut the positions. We recruit, we train, we hire; they cut. Prairie Mountain Health Access to Family Doctors Mr. Stuart Briese (Agassiz): Mr. Speaker, I've lived in the town of Neepawa for 69 years. Sixty -seven of those years I had a family doctor.

I have no family doctor now and I haven't had a family doctor in my community for two years. Where are all these doctors? Hon. Sharon Blady (Minister of Health): Well, I can assure all Manitobans that, in fact, according to CIHI, Manitoba is among the best in the nation on national doctor retention. Manitoba has more doctors practising in rural Manitoba than anywhere else west of the Maritimes, including our neighbours in Saskatchewan and Ontario. We have–for every 100,000 people in Manitoba, we have 204 doctors. Saskatchewan only has 184. And I look forward to welcom ing the class that graduated this year.

Many of them expressed a desire to practise in rural Manitoba. We welcome them there. Mr. Briese: That class graduated this year, they immediately exported 40 doctors from it. Prairie Mountain region–I wish she talked to the regional health authorities –is 40 doctors short. The doctors in Neepawa are not taking new patients. Doctors in Carberry are not talking new patients. The doctors in Minnedosa are not taking new patients. The closest I could probably get a famil y doctor is Brandon, which is an hour drive away.

I–as I said earlier, I've had a doctor in my own community for 67 years, and for the last two years I cannot access a doctor in my own community. Once again I ask: Where are these missing doctors? Ms. Blady: Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for the question. I am hoping that he's tried our family doc finder because I know that that's connected 23,000 people with doctors, most people within the same day. And of the 107 new graduates, yes, 77 will stay in Manitoba to complete their residency, but just because they're completing their residency elsewhere doesn't mean that they don't come back home to Manitoba.

And I know that 34 are moving, again, towards studies in family medicine, 19 in family medicine in rural and northern Manitoba. And I know young Kyle Conrad will be completing his

1208 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 2015 Family Medicine Rural Stream Residency in Boundary Trails Health Centre. * (14:30) So rural doctors are coming to Manitoba and staying and staying in their home communities if they can. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The time allowed for question period has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Mr. Speaker: And now time for private members' statements. World MS Day Hon. James Allum (Minister of Education and Advanced Learning): Today, May 27th, is World MS Day.

Though multiple sclerosis is not fully understood, this disease affects millions of people around the world and thousands here in Manitoba. MS is thought to be an autoimmune disease which damages the central nervous system. We do not know what causes the disease, we do not have a way of predicting it and we have yet to find a cure. While this disease is not deadly under normal circumstances, it does seriously affect a significant portion of our populati on. When the disease is severe, it can cause extreme fatigue, vision problems, mood changes and cognitive impairment.

Almost every family in Manitoba knows someone affected by MS. But we are not giving up hope in battling this disease. There is promising research being done to combat MS right here in Manitoba and our government is proud to support this work. Our government is contributing $1.5 million to help fund the first Canadian clinical trial studying the use of mesenchymal stem cells to treat multip le sclerosis.

Since 2011, we have invested another $3.5 million towards the fight against MS; part of that has been a $1- million contribution for the development and certification of a stem cell production facility in Winnipeg's Health Sciences Centre. The MS Society of Canada is one of our strongest partners in this fight. This organization has existed since 1948 and today counts a membership of about 28,000 people across Canada. It is the only national organization that provides services to those with MS and funds for research into the disease.

The MS Society, Manitoba branch, is an incredible advocate, partner and friend in this challenging journey for patients throughout our province. We are joined today by Signy Hansen, chair of government relat ions standing committee of the Manitoba division of the MS Society of Canada; Darell Hominuk, director of client services and government relations; Giles Ringer, a member of the government relations committee; as well as Lizelle Mendoza and Shirley Atkins who are both MS ambassadors.

On behalf of all members in the Chamber, I would like to thank you, all of you, for your amazing work that you and your organize do–your organizations do on behalf of all Manitobans. Thank you. MS Awareness Month Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Alongside Canadians across our entire country, we in the PC caucus have been proud to recognize the month of May as Multiple Sclerosis Awareness Month. Multiple sclerosis, or MS, is a disease that affects the lives of thousands o f Manitobans and their families daily.

It is estimated that every day three Canadians are diagnosed with MS, which can occur at any age and can cause such systems as loss of memory, muscle strength, vision, speech and hearing. Currently there is no cure for MS. But, Mr. Speaker, this does not mean that those living with MS and their families live without hope. There are individuals across Canada who work day in and day out to find a cure and advance treatment options through important research, advocacy a nd care.

Throughout May, the MS Society of Canada, including here in the Manitoba division, have been busy raising awareness, informing and educating the public and engaging new and existing supporters in their efforts towards finding a cure to end MS. Today we are proud to don red carnations indicating our support of the MS Society's efforts and our support of all who live daily with the challenges of MS. The red carnation is Canada's oldest symbol of the hope of finding a cure to end multiple sclerosis.

The carnation is well known for both its beauty and long- lasting nature, symbolic of the efforts of so many striving to find a cure for

May 27, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1209 MS and enhancing the quality of life for those living with it. Mr. Speaker, as there is still no known cure for multiple sclerosis, we stand with Manitobans today to bring awareness of MS and all who are afflicted by it. We also stand today to acknowledge the extraordinary work of the MS Society here in the Manitoba division, an organization that works tirelessly to ensure that everyone with MS in Manitoba has the opportunity to participate fully in all aspects of life and to educate the public for the benefits of all who live with MS.

And finally, we stand today to offer our support and let all those with MS and th eir families know they do not face MS alone. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Stella Hussey Retirement Hon. Deanne Crothers (Minister of Healthy Living and Seniors): Joining us in the gallery today is Stella Hussey, principal of École Assiniboine in St. James. Stella's been working in schools for 42 years, but is now saying goodbye as principal to start her well-earned retirement. Stella was born in New Brunswick and from a young age knew that she wanted to help others and work with young people.

She began tea ching in 1973, and at that time her husband Carl was a member of the Armed Forces, which meant they did a lot of moving. But she didn't let that stop her. From Ontario to BC and even to Germany for five years, she always kept teaching wherever she was ne eded most. In 1988, they came to live and settle down in Manitoba, and Stella soon began working at Bannatyne school as the French co-ordinator. In 2000, she became the principal of École Assiniboine and has remained there since.

I have to state that this is a principal who is so well liked that I hear accolades about her from constituents while I'm on the doorstep. Stella has said before that one of the biggest highlights of teaching is having students come back years later to let her know how much she influenced their lives. It's educators like this that have such an impact on so many young people. They inspire countless students to enjoy a life filled with learning and encourage children to believe in themselves, providing them with experiences they wi ll never forget.

Stella will be retiring only a few short weeks from now, but that will not stop her from helping others. Students and staff can expect to see her back at École Assiniboine in September to volunteer because she still loves being at the sch ool with the students and staff. She will certainly be missed by teachers and students alike, including my own children. And from personal experience, I can attest to the joy and sense of playfulness with which Stella engages children. I'm happy to take this opportunity to thank you, Stella, for inspiring so many young people to learn. Thank you.

French Public Speaking Competition Mr. Wayne Ewasko (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, public speaking is an essential skill that is becoming more important to pra ctise in everyday life. Learning to speak publicly in another language is even more beneficial and valuable. Our province is filled with talented youth who participate in public speaking competitions, including the Concours d'art oratoire, a public speaking competition where students prepare and present speeches in French. Cet événement annuel est organisé par Canadian Parents for French et qui s'est déjà déroulé pour plus que 30 ans.

Translation This annual event is organized by Canadian Parents for French and has been held for over 30 years. English The competition has several tiers, ranging from the classroom, divisional and province -wide levels of competition. Every year, the provincial level of this competition takes place at l'Université de Saint-Boniface. The Concours d'art oratoire provincial competition took place on May 2nd, and I had the pleasure of attending the event. Students from grades 3 to 12 in early immersion, late immersion, core French and core extended French programs participated in various levels of competition.

1210 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 2015 Tous les étudiants sont jugé s sur la voix, la qualité de langue, leurs choix de sujet et leurs gestes. Translation All students are judged on voice, quality of language, choice of subject and gestures. English High school students are asked two to three questions in addition to their presentation. All participants in the competition receive certificates of participation at the divisional level, and cash prizes, trophies and ribbons are awarded at the provincial level.

I would like to congratulate the 65 medallists in the 25 levels of provincial competition, which I would like to include in Hansard. I would also like to acknowledge Angelica Castellaneta, Pol Ferreres-Garcia, Andr éa Rondeau -Brown, Kayla Peters and Imane Marrakchi, the grade 11 and 12 provincial finalists who will represent Manitoba at the national competition level in Ottawa on May 30th, 2015. A tous les membres de l'Assemblée législ ative, je vous prie de me joindre et reconnaitre les étudiants manitobains qui ont participé dans le Concours provincial d'art oratoire.

Translation I would ask all the members of the Legislative Assembly to join me in recognizing the students from Manitoba who participated in the provincial public speaking competition. English I ask that all members join me in acknowledging the Manitoba students who participated in the provincial Concours d'art oratoire French public speaking competition. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Lillian Lakser -Merz, Abby Cesmystruck, Gus Bonnefoy, Lucy Liu, Katherine Robinson, Tavis Derksen, Megan Burns, James Nowell, Maya Barnabé, Katia Djomo Wongep, Kiana Meister, Aminah Salem, Calum Remillard, Safiya Ratana, Natalia Neufeld, Andrew Estabillo, Sakshi Badesha, Adi Groumoutis, Sarah Cull, Teun Keijzer, Émélyne Surville-Barland, Meredith Rose, Jéric Lavoie, Sydney Dillabough, Bethany Kolisniak, Isaac Cassels, Emma Callbeck, Lillian Borger, Carlie Heinrichs, Arishya Aggarwal, Roene Nasr, Madeline Ritter, Suprova Hossain, Milèna Audino, Sophie Conner, Ryan Hay, Shaelyn Burr, Kiera Nichol, Linnéa Cox, Jasmin Tang, Jordyn White, Sophie Partyka, Mariia Nevoit, Maggie Melnychuk, Michael Kehler, Svaytik Artemenko, Sélina Audino, Emma Borger, Andréa Rondeau- Brown, Laura Phrakonkham, Sabrina Kendall, Kayla Peters, Kitty Kerr, Angelica Castellaneta, Danielle Cherpako, Pol Ferreres -Garcia, Parsa Mansouri, Imane Marrakchi, Brianna Ritchot, Alexie Marion, Sukhcharhat Dhillon, Jason Cegayle, Anya Ingram, Ceilidh Simon.

Manitoba's Health-Care System Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I speak today of the problems Manitoba Libe rals have exposed in our health- care system under t oday's NDP. There have been numerous reviews, including many of emergency department operations, the latest from the inquest into Brain Sinclair 's death. There have also been many other reviews like that of the emergency medical system in 2013. After almost 16 years of NDP government, we have a fractured and fragmented health in formation system with enormous gaps.

A provincial infor - mation system is essential to understand how our health-care system delivers care and to make improvements. * (14:40) But as we found, numerous ERs in Manitoba don't even have an Emergency Departmen t Information System. We also found different infor - mation systems which cannot even communicate with one another being used within a single RHA. The NDP has a Tower of Babel approach with poor and fractured communication. Assessing the implementation of recom- mendations of the emergency medical system review, it is horrifying that after two years, so little has been done.

It is also sad that Mr. Reg Toews, who spearheaded the report, has been removed and that progress has halted. This is very upsetting considering the emergency medical system was declared to be in crisis in 2007. Today paramedics are working under horrendous conditions, sometimes for days on end without rest and, as a result, suffering tremendous psychological stress. The system is so f ragmented because leader - ship has been swaying in the wind and most of the report's recommendations have been gathering cobwebs.

May 27, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1211 This government, from here on, in testament to its lack of ability to implement basic, badly needed and recommended improvem ents, should be known as the cobweb government. Mr. Speaker: I believe that concludes members' statements. We'll now move on to grievances –oh, pardon me, before I forget. Is there leave of the House to include the names that the honourable member refe renced in his members' statement, the honourable member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Ewasko)? [Agreed] Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Official Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Point of Order Mr. Speaker: On a point of order, okay. Mr. Goertzen : Mr. Speaker, earlier in question period, the Minister of Health put on the record a word that I think was not reflective of the honourable way in which all members would like to be treated in this House. She referred to a member of the House as being ignorant. Mr. Speaker, I find, regardless if that particular word falls within the various words within Beauchesne's and within our own past rulings, as being unparliamentary. I would cite O'Brien and Bosc, Mr.

Speaker, on unparliamentary language, which indicates that any reflection and use of offensive, provocative or threatening language in the House is strictly forbidden. I certainly would consider that to be offensive, Mr. Speaker, to any member of the House. All of us come here with our own views a nd our own ideas, and we express them, often passionately. And the Minister of Health has the right to disagree, if she chooses, with any member of this House, but she doesn't have the right, I don't believe, to make an offensive comment about a member. And I would ask that she withdraw that comment. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the –I'm not certain as, to be frank, whether or not in fact that pa rticular word that is on the list of words that are prohibited by the House. There has been, certainly, in the last little while, references to individuals in this Chamber that I think have caused some difficulty on all sides of the House. Mr.

Speaker, I think that, if in fact that word was used, and if in fact it is on a –it is –has offended a particular member of this House, I think that –I don't think there will be a problem with the Minister of Health withdrawing that particular word. And I'd–so I'm recommending, Mr. Speaker, that on the next occasion or opportunity, when that member's in the House, that that word will be withdrawn. Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for River Heights, on the same point of order. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I just want to comment briefly.

Because I believe that it is not just the word, but it is in part the context and it is part how the word was used and pronounced which becomes important in this particular cir - cumstance. And I think, if you will re view the–what was said, and the text as it was said in the tapes, that that will be important in considering your ruling in this circumstance. And my reflection of what I heard was that this was used in a way which should not be used in this Chamber.

And so I think that the member for Kildonan east should be, well, thanked for his intervention and his willingness to ask the minister to withdraw that, but I think it's also important that when this ruling, whatever it may be, is considered in the future, that there be some context and some assessment of the way in which the word is used, because we don't want to have ignorant being used in every context as being considered unparliamentary. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Steinbach, the honourable Minister of Health. Hon.

Sharon Blady (Minister of Health): Yes, as to the point of order, I would just like to remove the word ignorance from my statement if that is to the pleasure of the House and to the Speaker and with my apologies to all members in the Chamber. Mr. Speaker: I thank the honourable Minister of Health for withdrawing the word that was used that was the matter of the point of order that was raised by the honourable member for Steinbach (Mr. Goertzen). I believe that will conclude the matter since the apology's been given and the word

1212 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 2015 has been withdrawn, and I thank the honourable minister for that. I hope that will resolve the matter and thank honourable members for their advice on this as well. And while I'm on my feet, I want to again caution all honourable members. I know that this place can sometimes be–have items in here that come before this Chamber that are hotly contested, and there are strong feelings on both sides of these matters.

But I caution all honourable members, when you're asking questions or answering questions or providing comments during speeches, that we pick and choose, as so many Speakers before me have said, please pick and choose your words very, very carefully, because any word in particular can be– cause disorder in the House, and Speakers are obligated to stand up and to take these matters seriously and to make sure that they bring the House back into order.

And so to prevent that disorder from happening, I'm asking all honourable members, please pick and choose your words very carefully to prevent disruption of the House activities. So I hope that will resolve the matter with respect to the point of order, and we can conduct ourselves respectfully in the future. * * * Mr. Speaker: Now that we've dealt with that, I'd like to call grievances. Are there any grievances? ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Mr. Speaker: Seeing none, we'll move on to orders of the day, government business. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Government House Leader): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to resolve the House into Committee of Supply in three sections. In the Chamber will be Education and Advanced Learning for today, in the room –in room 255 will be Finance, and in room 254 will be Family Services. Mr. Speaker: We'll now resolve into the Committee of Supply. Madam Deputy Speaker, will you please take the Chair in the Chamber, and the various committee Chairs to the committee rooms. Thank you. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) FAMILY SERVICES * (14:50) The Acting Chairperson (Matt Wiebe ): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Family Services. As previously agreed, questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Hon. Kerri Irvin -Ross (Minister of Family Services): I have some answers that I'd like to put on the record. From the member opposite, he asked what kind of training do TigerTel employees have and are they trained in CFS policy. Prior to me putting that on the record, I'd like to put on some facts around the minutes used per month by TigerTel.

In 2008- 2009, it was used an average of 2,893 minutes per month. In 2014-2015, it was used 1,162 minutes per month. So that is a drastic reduction. And, in Mar ch, for example, TigerTel was used for 344 minutes, a decrease of 27 per cent since 2014. Mr. Rob Altemeyer, Chairperson, in the Chair It's a system that fluctuates, and so I think when you're looking at the statistics about how the minutes used, that it needs to reflect the averages. However, when hired, TigerTel agents are trained on the TigerTel phone system then shadow other agents as the other agent takes calls for two weeks.

They are trained on how to handle a wide variety of situations. After two we eks, they start taking basic calls but continue to shadow other agents. For the first month, they have a senior -level agent sitting with them on every call to provide support. When a call comes in from ANCR, they have a specific script to follow and additi onal information sheets tailored to Manitoba CFS. Again, I would like to stress that the majority of calls are handled by the professionals at ANCR, and the TigerTel is used only when there are not staff available.

And the staff aren't available because th ey're out in the community supporting families across the city. The other question that the member asked were how many vacancies, and in the after -hours services there's approximately 1.4 FTE that is vacant.

May 27, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1213 There were some questions on Thrive! and the five-year autism strategy, and I can tell you that the representation on the committee is a combination of government and community membership. It is the Asperger Manitoba, Manitoba Families for Effective Autism Treatment, Autism Society of Manitoba, Manitoba Family Services including front -line and program staff, Manitoba Health, Manitoba Education and Advanced Learning, parents raising children including adult children with ASD, as well as self-advocates who are consumers of autism services.

The ASD leadership group has three priorities: that's to improve access to diagnostic services; a community-managed website, which we've been working with them to implement; a pilot project for young adults to promote independent living and vocational and social-recreational skills. And that is– Transforming Futures is one of those initiatives as well. In this budget year, we had an initiative around a hub called Building Independence that we'll be funding as well to support it. So we are working with the leadership group. The leadership group last met in 2014, so last year it met.

But I think what is very significant is you need to be aware that there are working groups that are meeting on a regular basis and they are making significant progress in our projects or i n our priorities that we have listed. There was questions around the annual intake for the early learning program, how many students are allowed in ABA each year. So the annual intake for early learning program is there are 74.5 funded early-learning spaces. However, the number of children that enter the program varies each year, and that's because the children are entering and exiting the program at different times.

And that's partly because, as well, that there is an intensity of service that is different depending on the needs of the child. I can tell you over the last three years the number of children that have been served. In 2012-13 was 110; 2013- 14 was 118; and 2014- 15 was 116. The school -aged learning program, there is not a designated number of funded space, it is helping within co- ordination of education as well as Family Services, and also based on the needs of the youth and what the parents are interested in happening or want to see happen. All right, and now there was a question about the wait-list for ABA.

So, as we are aware and spoke about last–yesterday, last time we met, we know that there is a marked increase in the number of children that are diagnosed with ASD and that, certainly, is putting pressure across the system. We are very aware of the impact of children being on the wait-list for the ABA program. That's why we are continuing to support ABA but also looking at supporting the continuum of services. For the autism early learning ABA program, as of April 30th, there are 79. Autism school -age program, there is one; post -school-age consultative services, there are 23.

I want it made very clear that as there're children on the wait -list we are providing a number of services to them. The parent support model delivered by the St. Amant provides, whose children are wait -listed for early learning ABA program with training and assessment, goal setting and consultation. The service enables parents to begin using evidence- based strategies with their child. The child development services are also provided. The services offered through Children's disABILITY Services program provides a child development worker to work with parents to identify the child's strengths and goals.

Train and consultation is provided either in the family's home or in a licensed child -care setting to assist the children to develop and learn new skills. Autism Outreach is delivered by the Family Services staff and provides families with play -based, child-led flexible model of support for pre -school children. It provides parents with training and consultation on evidence -based autism intervention approaches. Since 2012, as I said yesterday, we've been able to hire five autism early intervention specialists; that has expanded the services to rural Manitoba.

Children with ASD attending licensed child-care facilities are also eligible to receive support through the inclusion support program. Child-care centres can get support to ensure children with additional needs are able to participate in the child -care program. T he school -aged and children diagnosed with ASD are eligible to receive a number of services through the Manitoba Education and Advanced Learning and they can share information on those services for you.

Additional services and supports are provided to families through the Family Support Services program and it's a needs assessment is completed, and a family support plan is developed, and based on that family support plan, we could be providing families with respite and that's including nursing

1214 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 2015 respite if that's necessary; supplies, assistive technology devices. The Early Childhood Development program maximizes the child's development in potential areas of self -help, motor skills, socialization, com - munication. There's also the Summer Skills Maintenance program to support children, and for adolescents we have the after -school care for adolescents. There's also assistance if necessary for transportation to and from medical appointments and also if –we will also provide home modifications if that's required.

So I think that answers the questions that were left outstanding, and I thank the member for his patience for allowing me the time to put them on the record. Mr. Ian Wishart (Portage la Prairie): I thank the minister for that, and I will certainly make sure that those questions are passed along to those that expressed an interest in that area. I did want to ask one little follow -up on that in terms of inclusion support programs. Is that available at all licensed day-care centres? * (15:00) Ms. Irvin-Ross: Yes, it is.

It's an application -based program, so depending on the child's need, it's –the application can be made by the director of the centre. Mr. Wishart: The minister is certain that that's available to private licensed day-care centres? Ms. Irvin-Ross: I will confirm that. I think that the services that we provide are for the not -for-profit organizations, the child- care centres. That is our focus. Our system is built on not-for-profit child-care facilities and provides a great service fo r Manitoba families. Mr.

Wishart: I appreciate the minister checking on that, and I certainly look forward to any correction being added where appropriate in this. And I –before we wrap things up, I did have a couple things I wanted to mention. It's very interesting that 2008 was the last time that there was extensive use of TigerTel, which was also, I think, the year that there was another issue with children in hotels. So I think that that may actually prove our point, that there is a linkage between the number of children in hotels and the usage of this system.

Going on from there, I did have a few questions about the five-year plan for the St. Amant Centre that I wish to –and I know the minister touched on t hat in some of her statement. I understand from talking to some of the parents that this is a voluntary plan to move people from St. Amant back into the community. Could the minister elaborate a little bit more about what the nature of this plan is? Ms. Irvin -Ross: So, the St.

Amant board of directors, as well as the executive management, have come up with a strategy to transition people who do not require 24-hour nursing care into the community residential settings. There has been ongoing communication with parents and with residents themselves around this strategy. Really, they are committed–St. Amant is committed to ensure that the level of care provided in the new facility does not change. They'll also free up space in the River Road facility for people who do require specialized services. We recognize that the transition can be difficult for residents and families.

There is a transition steering committee that's been established to manage the transition planning. St. Amant will continue to meet with staff through the transition, answer all of their questions and their concerns. We often, and I –we know this from the MDC debate around the differing belief systems of where people should be served and how there are folks who believe community living is the only option, and I know that there are individuals, professionals and families that feel the security of a residential care facility and are fearful of what will happen to their loved one in the community.

I want to assure you that the transition al steering committee will continue to have the conversations with the parents, will do all that they can to alleviate the concerns as they transition their –the residents into the community. The philosophy is, is to provide community living, to improve and increase in - dependence for particular residents that are able to do that. So I will continue to have conversations with the leadership of St. Amant.

Their goal is to move approximately 15 residents per year over the next five years, and as they have been doing that already for at least one year, and it could be that they've done it for two years, this is their –they're in their second year right now, and they're seeing some success. But, as I said, that they have a responsibility and they know they have that responsibility to make sure

May 27, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1215 they're sharing information and alleviating any of the concerns that family members or residents could have. Mr. Wishart: Well, I thank the minister for that explanation. The minister specifically mentioned only those that do not require 24- hour nursing care would be eligible to be moved into the community, and in terms of the decision -making process on who requires 24 -hour care and who does not, could the minister enlighten me as to –is the decision maker – alternate decision maker in most cases, part of that discussion process? Ms.

Irvin-Ross: Yes, you're correct that the families are a part of it. The substitute decision maker is a part of the conversation about what is the care plan for the resident, as well as the professionals are making that decision together. They're doing it in a co-operative way. What we are able to do because of–the facility at St. Amant has the cottages that are available, that there is a –if necessary, that there is a two -step phase-in–of going into the community.

And the first phase would be leaving the residential -care facility and moving into one of the cottages with the supports that they need, and that could help, you know, alleviate if there's any stress around it, help with the transition if there's any further assessment that needs to happen, and when it is deemed by the decision makers that are working with the particular resident, when they're ready to move into the community that then will be the option for them. So, yes, folks are sittin g around the table together co-operatively coming up with the information, the decisions. Mr. Wishart: I thank the minister.

So this is a consensus decision? Everyone must agree? Ms. Irvin-Ross: I'm not able to confirm that it is a consensus model or not. I can confirm that the interested parties are at the table apart and having the conversation. As we have spoken many times before, and we know with the MDC experience that there are a number of individuals that medically, socially and emotionally could be out in the community, but there are families that do not feel comfortable with that.

I am very confident that the transitional steering committee will continue to work with those families that are struggling with that decision and come up with a resolution that everyone can accept, and what is most important is that what is in the best interest of that resident. And those conversations sometimes are very, very difficult if the people are polarized. But I have full confidence that they will be able t o alleviate those concerns and together make a decision that best serves that resident. Mr. Wishart: Well–and I thank the minister.

And it is particularly interesting that this has a transitional facility attached to it that may help in terms of acclimat izing people back into the community that have been, in many cases, out of the community for very long periods of time, something we did not enjoy in the case of the MDC for those that are returning to the community.

One of the policy issues at the time –and I hope it's not still in place but was in place at the time of MDC–is if they had been out but returned to the community for six months they were no longer eligible to return to the facility should they have a period of time when they had a relapse and needed additional supports. That will not be the policy in this case? Ms. Irvin -Ross: We'll have to consult with St. Amant to make sure that we're giving you the most accurate information. We will do that. I'm not sure that you can compare the MDC exper ience to the St.

Amant because they're making these transitions under different reasons. And I think because of the MDC and the human rights complaint that was placed and that–it was–you only–to get back into MDC it has to be a court order. So we will co ntact St. Amant and get the information as soon as possible for you. Mr. Wishart: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the minister's comments on that, and when the minister does acquire this additional information, if we either put it in–have it put into the recor d of Hansard or at least a letter stating– An Honourable Member: I'll send you a letter. Mr.

Wishart: Yes, so that people are –have some assurance around this. And that said, I believe I'd like to thank the staff and the minister for their patience in regards to this Estimates process, and we're prepared to let it go to vote. * (15:10)

1216 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 2015 Mr. Chairperson: We thank the honourable opposition critic and the minister. So, hearing no further questions, we will now proceed to consideration of the resolutions relevant to this department. Resolution 9.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $451,616,000 for Family Services, Community Service Delivery, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2016. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 9.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $217,512,000 for Family Services, Community Engagement and Corporate Services, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2016. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 9.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $484,138,000 for Family Services, Child and Family Services, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2016. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 9.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,521,000 for Family Services, Costs Related to Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2016. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 9.6: RESOLVED that t here be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $401,000 for Family Services, Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2016. Resolution agreed to. As you all know, the last item to be considered for the Estimates of this department is item 9.1.(a), the minister's salary, contained in resolution 9.1.

At this point, we'll kindly ask the minister's staff to leave the front table for the consideration of this last item, and we thank you very much for your time with us here. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Wishart: I move that line 9.1.(

a) be amended so that the minister's salary be reduced to $1. Mr. Chairperson: The motion–oh, sorry. It has been moved by the honourable member for Portage that line item 9.1.(

a) be amended so t hat the minister's salary be reduced to $1. The motion is in order. Are there any questions or comments on the motion? Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): I'm sure that my friend from Portage will want to put some words on the record as well, just simply to say that we know that there have been a number of very public and tragic situations around Child and Family Services, which no one takes pleasure in and which everyone, I think, feels saddened by. But, ultimately, not everyone around this table is responsible for the Ministry of Family Services.

Only one person is, is the minister, and while that might be a difficult job to have, and I don't think anybody's ever said that it isn't a difficult job to have, it is the one that she does have, and responsibil ity and accountability come with that, and she knows that.

And, as a result of that, we don't bring forward these motions on every ministry or on every minister or every time, but they are brought forward as a way to ensure that people understand that there are significant concerns within the department, how it's being run at the top, how the outcomes and the results are tragic and difficult for Manitoba, and so we brought these forward for those reasons, along with others, which may want to be articulate d by my friend from Portage. Mr. Wishart: I appreciate the comments from my colleague from Steinbach. And, certainly, he's very right.

This is a difficult time and a difficult job, but, ultimately, respon- sibility remains in one place, and I know that the public is quite concerned.

I repeatedly hear from members of the public at events that certain aspects of this department's activities are not going particularly well and that changes need to be done and that the public seems to have quite an ambitious expectation of what can be done to deal with some of these issues, particularly in the area of child and family services where we have had some very public issues arise that have certainly left the general pu blic in Manitoba very concerned about how this is being handled. So, that said, I appreciate that this is a difficult job for the minister, but we do have to hold responsibility.

May 27, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1217 Mr. Chairperson: Seeing no further comments, is the committee ready for the question? An Honourable Member: Question. Mr. Chairperson: Shall the motion pass? Some Honourable Members: Pass. Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Chairperson: I hear a no. Voice Vote Mr. Chairperson: Would all those in favour of the motion, please say aye. Some Honourable Members: Aye. Mr. Chairperson: And all those opposed to the motion, please say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Chairperson: In my humble opinion, the Nays kind of won that one. Recorded Vote Mr.

Kelvin Goertzen (Official Opposition House Leader): Recorded vote, Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Chairperson: Remarkable. A formal vote has been requested by two members. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now recess to allow this matter to be reported and for members t o proceed to the Chamber for the vote. The committee recessed at 3:17 p.m. ____________ The committee resumed at 4:10 p.m. Mr. Jim Rondeau, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair The Acting Chairperson ( Jim Rondeau ): Okay, we're going to resume and conclude. This

section of the Committee will–of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Family Services. We have one last item of business to complete for this department. Resolution 9.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Ma jesty a sum not exceeding $6,605,000 for Family Services, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2016. Resolution agreed to. This completes the Estimates for the Department of Family Services. HOUSING AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT The Acting Chairperson (Jim Rondeau): The next set of Estimates to be considered by this

section of–is for the Department of Housing and Community Development. Shall we–[interjection] No, we can keep going. The minister's here. We'll just bring the minister up. Who's the critic? [interjection] Okay. Good, there, we're set. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of the Department of Housing and Community Development. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Mohinder Saran (Minister of Housing and Community Development): Yes, I have. The Acting Chairperson (Jim Rondeau ): The honourable minister. Mr. Saran : I am pleased to represent –present to this committee for its consideration the 2015- 16 expenditure Estimates of the Department of Housing and Community Development.

I look forward to engaging in a constructive discussion regarding the direction our government has set out for the department in these Estimates. Creating strong, healthy and sustainable communities across our province with our com - munity partners remains a priority for the Manitoba government. We will invest in a number of key areas during the 2015-16 fiscal year to improve social and affordable housing, revitalize neighbourhoods and support community and co- operative development opportunities.

A year ago, we achieved a five-year commitment to create 1,500 new affordable housing units and 1,500 new social housing units. Building on this success, Manitoba Housing is currently undertaking a new commitment to support 500 new affordable housing units and 500 new social housing units. Manitoba Housing continues to preserve the quality, functionality and long- term viability of the provincial social housing stock by undertaking major capital improvements. There are multiple benefits to this investment: tenants live in a home they can take

1218 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 2015 pride in; neighbourhoods are revitalized; and efficient upgrades improve our environmental footprint. The department is facing the decline of federal funding as operating agreements expire under the social housing agreement. As federal funds decrease, the Province must step up to ensure that quality homes and responsive housing assistance programs remain viable to Manitobans. Education and training are also an important part of Manitoba's economic growth.

HCD partners with agencies such as the Frontier School Division on training related to housing construction trades. These opportunities help individuals acquire the skills needed to access the job market, a crucial set–step on the ladder out of poverty. The government will also continue its work on advancing homelessness, as we heard in the recent budget speech. HCD is the provincial lead for home - lessness. We are committed to supporting home - lessness initiatives and partnering with organizations like the Winnipeg task force to end homelessness in order to provide more housing options for vulnerable people.

We will also continue to provide vital programming under Neighbourhoods Alive!, Cooperative Development Services, and the Community Places Program to support our com - munities in their efforts. We are pleased to be expanding the Neighbourhoods Alive! program to another Winnipeg neighbourhood where community- driven investment will support its revitalization. I would like to express my appreciation of Housing and Community Development staff for their ongoing work, dedication to continuous improvement and commitment to the provision of high-quality service to Manitobans.

I look forward to this committee's review of the Department of Housing and Community Development's expenditure Estimates for 2015 and '16 and welcome the comments of committee members. Now, I think my staff is there, but I think it's not still time for them to come over here. The Acting Chairperson (Jim Rondeau): No, not yet. Mr. Saran: Not yet, and the Chairperson told me, so I thank the –all the committee members to be here, and I hope we will have a constructive discussion. Thank you very much. The Acting Chairperson (Jim Rondeau ): We thank the minister for the comments.

Does the official opposition critic have any opening comments? Mr. Ian Wishart (Portage la Prairie): I appreciate the minister's opening comments. I am deputy critic in this area, so I am pleased to be here today to open the discussions around this very important department. We've certainly come to recognize the significant value of affordable and social housing in the province and how important it is, in particular, to those that are on limited an d fixed incomes.

I think, in many ways, our support of the increase to the housing allowance is a recognition that housing is absolutely critical issue, and we have long been on record of supporting initiatives like Housing First to deal with homelessness, and, in general, as an entryway to dealing with the poverty issues in the community. So certainly I'm interested in discussing that particular area with the minister.

In regards to community development corporations, I am particularly interested you've added a new one, and I would look forward to finding out actually what community that is, because other than the one at Thompson, which is –I have not had the pleasure of visiting, I think I actually had a visit with them all. So I certainly admire the good work that they are doing, and they are very grassroots and very involved in the community, and I think it's very important recognition of what local community groups can do.

So appreciate the opportunity to be the critic on this file at this time, and I look forward to asking some pertinent questions of the minister and his staff. The Acting Chairperson (Jim Rondeau): We'd like to thank the member from Portage la Prairie, the deputy critic from the official opposition, for your remarks. Under Manitoba practice, debate on the minister's salary is the last item considered for the department in the Committee of Supply. Accordingly, we shall now defer consideration of line item 30.1.(

a) contained in resolution 30.1.

May 27, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1219 At this time we will invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and, once they join us, we will ask that the minister introduce the staff in attendance. The honourable minister. * (16:20) Mr. Saran: I'm glad to introduce my staff from –the department's senior staff, sitting at the table: Mr. Craig Marchinko, deputy minister; Mr. Steven Spry, chief executive officer, MHRC; Ms. Mala Sachdeva, assistant deputy minister and chief financial officer for MHRC ; Mr. Brian Brown, director of Financial Services.

The Acting Chairperson (Jim Rondeau ): We thank the minister. Does the committee wish to proceed through the Estimates of this department chronologically or have a global discussion? Mr. Wishart: We wish to have a global discussion. The Acting Chairperson (Jim Rondeau ): Is that the will of the committee, to have the global discussion? [Agreed] Thank you. It is agreed that questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner with all resolutions to be passed once questioning has been concluded. The floor is now open for questions. Mr.

Wishart: I look forward to asking a number of different questions in –regarding housing issues with the minister. Perhaps we'd start with some very basic stuff in terms of the number –current number of units that Manitoba Housing is responsible for. Mr. Saran: Okay, I think we have total number of units: 35,500. Mr. Wishart: Thank the minister for that and thank the Chairman. Those the total number that you manage? Or does that –there's also some that are managed by other organizations? Could you break that down, please? Mr. Saran : Yes, they are direct ly managed by the department, MHR.

Yes, of the department is 14,200; and other sponsor -managed, 4,000; and non- profit co-operatives, 17,300, in total. Mr. Wishart: I thank the minister for that. Could the minister give me a number that represents the num ber that are co -operatives in–out of that total? Mr. Saran: Mr. Chair, 2,102. Mr. Wishart: Thank the minister for that infor - mation. Has that number increased in recent years? Could you–a couple years' worth of information as to whether we're making progress in that area? Mr. Saran : At this point, we don't want to give inaccurate information, so we'll provide it on later. Mr.

Wishart: Well, I would appreciate that. As the minister knows, that's also an area he's responsible for, co -operatives and co -operative development, and it has always amazed me that a province like Manitoba that has given rise to so many commercial co-operatives has actually done so little in terms of housing co-operatives. So I would like to know if we've made progress. So perhaps five years' worth of information, if that would be possible, would be very useful for us all. Mr. Saran : I guess we will provide that to the member. Mr.

Wishart: Now, I'd like to also get access to some information regarding vacancy rates. And I suspect there may be a difference between the ones that are managed by third parties on your behalf and the ones that you manage yourselves. I wonder if you would have any information, either annual or preferably seasonal, because we're all very aware th at housing in particular tends to be subject to seasonal trends. Mr. Saran : Okay. The number of vacant units available for rent, 221 units, and sponsor -managed are 70 units. Mr. Wishart: Did you say the month of June?

Was that specific to that month, or was that–did I hear that correctly? Mr. Saran : Yes, according to staff, that will be April. Mr. Wishart: Well, and I would hope that we could get some, perhaps, monthlies for the last two years. As I mentioned, housing is a very seasonal market, so if the re's a significant shift over the course of the summer, which often is the case, I'd certainly appreciate some numbers. Say, monthly for the last

1220 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 2015 two years should be current enough for us to see what the trends are. Mr. Saran : Yes, we can provide for our direct- managed units. Mr. Wishart: Well, I certainly appreciate that. And we had access to some numbers here –and where did they go?–access to some numbers through a freedom of information request around the number of approved applications, by the month, going back to 2005. And back in 2005, the number was 464 in the month of November.

And they rise fairly steadily through '06, '07, '08, '09 and '10 and '11, '12, and the last number we have actually is for the month of March of 2013. They go from 464 to 2,945. Now, I know that that doesn't necessarily indicate people that are waiting, that that's approved, and that is family, I assume. We're concerned, I guess, that these numbers indicate a significant shortfall in the housing market. And I'm wondering what is b eing done to deal with this because I know you've had a fairly aggressive housing program for four years, I guess, maybe five, if I've got my dates correct.

Are we building public housing and losing private housing? Is that what's going on? * (16:30) Mr. Saran: Yes, significant investments in social housing stock and improvements in the services to tenants have attracted new applicants to Manitoba Housing. Because of improvements in the housing facilities, more people are attracted to a better housing program. Mr. Wishart: Well, I appreciate that comment from the minister.

And, yes, certainly, it's important that we continue to upgrade the Manitoba Housing, but when we check the private housing market rentals, the numbers are relatively static for that per iod, a slight decline. And we do lose housing units to condoization and what would be called upscale, which is, you know, renovations that put them at a – back in the market at a much higher level, which clearly aren't available for those that are on limited and fixed incomes. So we're kind of at a loss to explain why the number continues to grow so steadily. The market - place is clearly not responding.

I wonder if the minister has any thoughts as to why we seem to be creating a secondary marketplace that is not con- nected to the real marketplace. Mr. Saran : Yes, we introduced a tax credit, but I think it takes time to materialize, those kinds of incentives. And also the member should realize, like, we are getting more immigrants signed up. In the beginning, they come over here; they are low-income people; they put their name everywhere where they can get it. But, later on, once they get their jobs and– so in that way I think there could be duplication in these numbers.

So they could be registered at different places. Mr. Wishart: Well, I appreciate those comments. So, in many ways, then, this waiting list would represent transitional applicants, in your mind? They're not looking to become permanent residents in Manitoba Housing; they're just going to be ther e for a short period of time and then, hopefully, move on to other housing markets –not rental markets, then? So they must be –because the numbers haven't gone up there, they must be purchasing? Is that the minister's? Mr.

Saran : No, some will and some will move to maybe higher–not quality, but maybe bigger houses because–one thing we have to understand, like, in the beginning, everybody have to get whatever they can get, and we have to provide that because those people won't have a–otherwise place to stay. And we have our PNP program, so we have –in that way, if those people move to the other provinces, we will lose both ways. So that's why, I think, in the beginning, people go to the houses where they can get.

But, later on, as people come from different places, they are so much proud of having their own houses, so as soon as they get a chance, so they will buy new houses. But every - body's not that lucky. Some people, it takes time for them to get a job, then takes time for them to get adjusted and to come up to that level so that they can get their own house. So not everybody can afford to have their own house. Some people have to wait longer. Other people can get it.

But this is a program not only just for new immigrants, as I –just to give the idea, be –I come from–being myself an immigrant, I come from a place where we are used to have joint family and we have two, three rooms, and my –for my cousin, my other cousin, myself and then my uncle, and we lived in the–used to live in the one house. And to find a place where you can–so you–we have to share that. So I understand how important having those houses, those rooms, are available. So I think we –in

May 27, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1221 that sense we have to think in those terms so that newcomers, we can give them enough space to stay. And later on they can advance their status by buying new houses. And so it's –people come and go, and that way and those. But we also have a steady population who stay in the –those rental houses sometimes –in those senses. But we have t o also–we're also working on the other part –side, because people can –we can provide them more training, they can uplift their earnings and then they can move.

So I think it's kind of a –like, a scenario which we have to continuously work on. We may not be – I'll work at it, and if we start cutting $500 million in our budget, the –where the –we will be left. So we have to think in those terms and continuously provide those kinds of services. And for those services we must need funds, and funds should be available. Mr. Wishart: Well, and I appreciate the minister's point of view and explanation on that.

But, as the critic for Family Services, we certainly see the number continue to grow for those that are on limited and fixed incomes, whether they're on EIA or working for minimum wage. And it is very difficult for them also to afford housing. And there's many, many people on disability, and there has been some increase in disability at the federal level but not a great deal has progressed here in the province. And many of those are in social housing. And it would appear that we are creating a backlog here.

And I suspect, as the minister may –his point may have been that it is a mix –a mixture of different groups. Some clearly are new immigrants to Manitoba, and we welcome them. And I understand that they need a period of time to adjust to a new reality, new economy, and find their place in that economy. And I think that there's lots of data to support how well they have been doing at that.

But I'm concerned that w e are creating quite a sizable pool now, almost 3,000, and this is several months old, and a –well, a–in fact, a year and a little bit old, creating quite a substantial pool of people that are waiting for housing. And I guess that begs the question, where are they staying in the meantime? Because if they're not in social housing and the numbers haven't increased dramatically in private housing, where are they? * (16:40) Mr. Saran: Yes, I–the member must know there are many people, they are also renting pr ivate, like, apartments and –but we are also providing them a kind of rent assist.

So they stay over there, but they also at the same time provide for –apply for affordable housing. In their sense, so they are waiting there and they are staying in the apart ments. They are waiting, so they can get a better –I–maybe they might think they might even get it cheaper as compared to they are staying now in the rental, private rental units. So I think that creates a kind of duplication because people also provide for their application for those houses and at the same time they are also staying in the apartments and they apply wherever they can apply. So I think that's –a duplication is there. Mr.

Wishart: Well, and I appreciate that explanation, but that kind of takes me back to my original point, really, that we may have created a marketplace that is disconnected from the com - mercial marketplace because you –basically saying that people are staying somewhere, and I assume when you talk about apartments they're not just couch surfing. But they're –they have residences and they've made their application to social housing because that's more desirable housing and that's probably a good thing and, you know, there is more that's [inaudible] desirable than where they're staying.

But those are acting like two different marketplaces, then, are they? Mr. Saran : I think the member must remember, a few years ago I introduced a private member's resolution for granny suites, and before that it was not allowed to rent out your basement or granny suite–whatever you can say –secondary suite. So, because of that move, and then we were able to convince the city government so they allow –or to let them rent those granny suites as secondary suites.

Because of that, now it is –creates kind of a situation where people are staying either with their relatives and renting those basements, but still they want a better place. Still they put their name on –name out on an application. We want that. But at least granny suites are really working well. And, like, my constituency in The Maples, like, there are immigrants –come over there and other communities from different areas. So if you look–go to that area, you will see how many people are living in the secondary suites. So that actually accom - modates pe ople.

It appears that we have extra number of people and –who are –don't have houses. They have houses. They are in secondary places, and

1222 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 2015 sometimes they stay with their relatives for a certain time. There's, I think, another thing maybe we can learn from jo int families, because in a joint family we learn tolerance and in a joint family we help each other. Seniors are helped with the younger ones and the kids are being taken care of by the seniors. That creates a kind of a small family, joint families. So these joint-family kind of structures–also being faded away time by time. But, as I mentioned, I come from the family–we are a joint family and we used to live in that.

We have a good way to learn tolerance and take care of each other. And I think that coul d also help in many other ways to eliminate those problems which we have in our society, because those problems are because when children are left alone and are–people who are close to them, they are not having–taking care of them. They are not there to hug them, and so I think that becomes an important factor of our society. I think, in a way, we have gone a little bit away from that. I hope somehow we can come back to the –that kind of living.

But, as always, there's a swing- like pendulum, go one way and t hen come back to the other way. I think we have to adjust in the middle, and that helps our–those problems we are perceiving. Those problems are not there. Houses are available; granny suites are available; secondary suites are available; and those units in the private market are available. And we are helping them at the same time with Rent Assist. So I think in that way it's balancing out. Mr. Wishart: I appreciate the minister and the comments.

And he certainly has a point of view, and, yes, recognize that there are many other cultures that do things quite differently than we tend to do things here in North America. And that certainly doesn't make it wrong. And yet, as the minister knows, the zoning rules around granny suites and subletting single-family dwellings are managed by municipal jurisdictions and there are certainly many rules around that. And recently, I believe– I think it was a call for proposal of interest in granny suites here in Winnipeg was put out –an expression of interest, perhaps, what it was.

And, surprisingly, and at least from my point of view, there was very little interest. So, yes, I understand that people have to have a place to put their head and you can't move ahead in life without housing, absolutely can't do that. And I was, frankly, surprised that there was not a lot more interest in that type of formal process to provide additional residence on the same lot. I guess, you know, given the minister's comments, why does he think we're not getting a formal response to that type of a request? Mr. Saran: Well, I really enjoy to talk about granny suites because I brought that PMR.

Considering, like, there are some seniors who come from other countries, and they used to live in a joint family, and they–on the other hand, there's also a new culture over here, children that don't like to have inter - ference. So to balance that kind of a situation, I think granny suites can be [inaudible] a really good i

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	40-4-37
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	40th 4th hansardpdf 37.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	34983097771c38bdcff99f240e690dd54029958b

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).