Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-8EVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, MARCH 17, 1976 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 31

Harch 17, 1976. The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): Tape 1171 Order! PRESENTING PETITIONS: HR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. RH - 1 HR. S. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I have one petition to present, Sir, on behalf of a total of 875 citizens in the electoral district of LaPoile. Forty-eight of the signatures, Sir, are from petitioners, residents of Petites; forty-eight more, residents of LaPoile; and thirty-five in Grand Bruit. I ~o not know if there has ever a petition presented before in this han. !louse on behalf of the residents of Petites.

Probably half the members of this House, Sir, do not even know, - AN HON. MEMBER: I know. }ffi. NEARY: -do not even know where Petites is located. MR. ROBRRTS: I know where it is. HR. NEARY: Certainly the other half probably do not know where Grand Bruit is,and have never been in LaPoile. MR. PECKFORD: Come on now! HR . NEARY: So, Hr. Speaker, it is a great privilege and honour for me to he able to present a petition on behalf of these wonderful people. MR. SMALLWOOD: Did you say 800 - odd petitioners? HR. NEARY: Yes, but I am coming to that.

The rest of them are from Channel-Port aux Basques area; forty-eight from Petites; forty-eight from LaPoile i thirty-five from Grand Bruit; and 744 from the Channel-Port aux Basques area 1which incidently really did not get all that recognition in the House of Assembly that it should have gotten down through the years. The prayer of the petition, Hr.

Speaker, is that "We, the undersigned do humbly petition the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to request that public hearings be held throughout our Province to obtain information aml hear briefs on the matter covered by the government white paper on the proposed snowmobile legislation, and further that no such legislation be enacted prior to the holding of such public hearings." 3087

Varch 17, 1'176. o·U:. NEARY : Tape 1171 P.Jl - 2 Now, ~lr. Speaker, the petition was circulated by members of the newly formed Rod and Gun Club in the Port aux Basques area. In supporting the petition, 'lr. Speaker, calling upon the government to hold the public hearings before legislation is enacted, I might say, Sir, that the govern­ ment's. white paper on the proposed snowmobile regulations has aroused,to say the least, Sir, strong feeling throughout this Province, especially in the rural parts of Newfoundland and Labrador.

It is rather regrettable Sir, and rather unfortunate indeed that the minister responsible for this t~hite paper did not do a better P.R. job, probably no fault of the minister' s 1 Sir, because to my knowledge, Hr. Speaker, it is the first time that there has been any evidence, any attempt, I suppose, at allmving the democratic process to influence a government in taking a major policy decision. The only other time, Sir, to my recollection that I heard a white ~aper mentioned in this hon. !louse was tvhen the Leader of the present old-line Lih.eral Party t~as tfinister of Realth.

He proposed to bring in a white paper on heaJth in this Province. The paper to my knowledge never saw the light of day. So it is rer,rettahle, Sir, that it was misunderstood. I would say that the minister himself probably got a lot of flack from his own members and even his own colleagues in the Cabinet because of the way that the paper was presented. I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that in order now to find out what are the mo.s t representative feelings and the most representative reaction to the white paper, especially, Sir, in the rural areas because the people somehow or .other feel in the outlying areas - as the minister l<nows because hoth he and I attended a meeting in Stephenville, I think it was,probably about the first meeting the minister attended after the white paper was circulated,and I was with the minister at the time and then we had a little hi.t of feedback down in the Channel- Port aux Basques area· but somehow or other, Sir, the people in the rural areas, the 308·'8

l'arch 17, 1976 Tape No. 1172 Nl'! - 1 !Tr.. NEARY: outports, feel that the White paper was written hy a · townie, by somebody who had no knowledge whatsoever of the rural parts of the Province, and again this is rather unfortunate because personally I do not think that is correct.

But in the meantime, Sir, I think that the Department of Tourism should now hold public hearings in - not all over Newfoundland,but in five or six key points throughout the Island part of our Province and the }tainland part of the Province, Labrador, so, that real,genuine snowmobilers, snowmobile owners,may attend these public hearings, Sir, and present their views;and even, Mr. Speaker, those who may be opposed to snmvmobiles operating in the Province at all, who have views to the contrary,that they be given also an opportunity to present their views at public hearings •.

And the reason I suggest.five or six points around - I am sure that the minister has had a tremendous number of petitions, letters of protest about certain parts of the ~~h:l.te paper, especially the restricted and controlled areas and probably, Sir, it may be unnecessary to hold public hearings, I do not know. The reason I am suggesting five or six places :Is because I do not think that the government should go, or the taxpayers should go to the expense of holding hearings all over Newfoundland and Labrador. Five or six major centres would be quite sufficient. If public hearings ar.e held, Mr.

Speaker, lthen ~rhen legislation is brought before this hon. House for adoption ~~e will not only have the satisfaction, Sir, of knowing that ve have dra~·m on the experience and the resources of other Provinces of r.anada in the legislation that they have in the other nine Provinces that we have been able to gather together, but we ~~ill know, Sir, that our legislation represents the true feelings and the true attitude of the people of this Province. So, }~r.

Speaker, it gives me great pleasure again to ask leave of the House to have this petition placed upon the table of the House and referred to the department tlo which it relates, in this case the }'inister of Tourism 1 Before I table the petition, Sir, I want to congratulate the minister,and probably! am the only one in the !louse who ·will do it because of the flak that it has gotten, I 3089

~arch 17, 1976 Tape No. 1172 NM- 2 MR. NEARY! do •rant to congratulate the minister for--having the foresight and the courage to circulate this ~rhite paper. It is the first att·empt, Sir, that I have seen in my fourteen years in this Bouse­ although some members are taking political advantage of it, leaving the :tmpression that it is already the law. It is not the lavr. It could hecome lm,, and ~;e have to guard against certain ob _1ectiona!lle parts <lf the paper. I do ~-rant to congratulate the min.ister for circulat{np; a '·rhite paper before he actually brought the legislation into the ~ouse. Ml!.

SPEAKF.R (DR. COJ.LINS)! The 'hon. ~inister of Fisherie~. MR. HODDER: fdr. Speaker, I '·7ould like to !'<upport the petition delivP.red hy the member from r.al'oil,e. Th:! R decis:!on was taken at a meeting which I attended in Stephenville,or near Stephenville,about a month ago and there are other petitions alon~ the same line which '~ill ~e delivered i~ the House in due course. The snowmobilers, or the Bay St.

George Snowmobile Club, as v;ell as the T'od ar1d Gun Club in Port aux Basques felt that there 1~as no time to adequately present their feelings to the government and many things in the ·r•hite paper were objectionable t.o them ,, They feel that a select collllli.ittee would be the rrost effective .way in which they can expres ·s their dissatisfaction, and to put their views forward. It Gives me great pleasure to support the petition from the member for Lal'oile (Hr. Neary). ~':Tl. . HICKEY: 1lr. Speaker, I want to make a fe~v brief coDDJients. I'P.. SPEA.'{F.l' (nr.. COLLINS) : Order, please!

Before I recognize the bon. minister I would like to inform the House that in the gallery \;re have !!r. C.ll.G. l.Jitt, Consul General for the Netherlands,and 'lr. Anthony Ayre who is the Netherlands Consulate in Newfoundland. and I am sure the members would ~·rish to bid them 1>relcome. SO!"'E HON . l<!P.?!B.ERS: Hear! Hear! 3090

March 17, 1 07F. Tape no. 1173 'Pa)l;e 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER (nr. Collins): ~e hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Sneaker, I 1ust want to comment briefly on the petition presented hv my bon. friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and in doing so I t~ould like to clear up a couple of items that the member mentioned. One: I would like to say, Sir, that the 1-lhite 'Paper, contrarv to the opinion of a number of people throughout the 'Province, and certainlv contrary to some people in the news media . is not a Hliite Paper of the Department of Tourism or the Minister of Tourism.

It is a 1-Jhite Paper of this t<OVernment. Such a White Paper is not issued, Mr. Speaker, ~~ithout the approval of my collea)l;ues in Cabinet. I am not sure when this message is going to get across,esnecially to certain members of the news me~ia who seem to feel occasionally that when a minister issues a statement or makes a decision that that necision is simnlv his, as if he were running the Province all by himself. lt is verv difficult to understand hrnJ such an opinion is given anv credence by people who should obviously knrnJ better.

Mv hon. friend mentions the buhlic relations aspect of it, and I am t~e fir.st to sav to him that I agree that there is a need, and there <.ras a need for public relations. 'Rut, 11r. Speaker, · when anyone attemnts to do anything in public relations in this Province in recent vears, thev are condemned-'a waste of money, always a waste of monev. I have to say to my hon. friend- and in saying this T exclude him because I knm·r exactlv what his position is on this Hhi te Paner. '~e have discussed it on a number of occasions, and he has made his views very clear to me- but I can say, Mr.

Speaker, t·ri th the exception of him, on the other side of the House I have not received anv recommendations, any comments from other members, And I say, Mr. Speaker, that one of the roles and one of the prime 1ohs of a member of this House is indeed to do public relations on behalf of his or her constituents and espetiallv in relation to suh1ects TJhich affect their constituents to such a p,reat extent as this particular suh1ect does. 3091

March 17, 1 0.7n Tape no. 1173 l'af!:e ;I - mw 2~ICKF.Y~ I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that some hon. members, not all of them, but some,would too busy making chean political noints on this 1fuite Paper. I thank the hon. member for recognizing - ~1r. Sneaker, on a noint of order. MR. HICKEY: and having the courage - 1W .• Sl'F.AKl':R (nr. Collins): Order, please: ~. 1", R01•TP.: The Minister is now en~ering into debate which ---- is not allowed in supportinp. the petition, MlL 1'ECK1"0Rn: He is cornmentin~~: on the petition. I"R. HICKEY: To that noint of order, Mr. Sneaker.

I am not enterinp. i.nto anv r!ehate, I am simplv stating a fact. Surelv that is not a debate. SOME :!.lON. MEl1BERS:Rear, hear: 1\ffi, HICKEY: A fact is a fact, It is-not deoatab~e. SOME RON. }'F.}~F,RS: Oh, oh: ~- HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I, as I have said ------ A noint of order has been raised as to Whether comments on the 11etition are entering into the area of debate, As T am sure hon. members know,Standing Order 97 of our House states that there sl,all be· no debate on a neti tion unless the House has it under consirleration.

He have established in some rep;ard a precedent rlurinll: this sitting that there may he comments on petitions,but I rlo not think the House nOefl intend that thes-e comments should get into dehate or indeed near debate. So I would bring that to the attention of all members and ask the hon. minister to continue with his remarks. ~- IIIC:T<f:Y: Thank vou, ~r. Sneaker.

I certainly do not want to start a rlebate on th:!.s, and I certainlv was not of the opinion that rnv comments would allude to any debate, because, as I have said, what I have staten are facts ann if my hon. friend, the House Leader on the other !'line,,·Yishes me to present those facts,. I will indeed in 3092

).(arch )7. l'l76 Tane no. 1171 Pa~~:e 3 Mr. Ric.Js!!.. ·~i tinv. to him, ~~:ive him clear-cut evidence of some of his colleaY.ues who have attempted to make chean nolitical noints out of what can onlv be termed to be a verv ROOd ami wortl-av measure ,beinR a. tillite 'Paner. and as !IIV hon. friend said, the Fi rst one issued in the 1>rovinc .e. I will ~~:ladlv acce~b the oetition as nresented h" m•T hon. friend, '1r. Sneak e r , and certainly give it con sicle ra.tion . It t~O\tld he im~ ror ~r to state here in the llou.oe as to what will hecome o~ it.

I simnlv w~nt to state that mv ~enartment are ea:-e-r ns vet,and wi.ll continue to accent and aopreciate anv comments bv hon . memhers on the other side or indeed any me~ers of the puhlic even thou~ the time,· as set, for representations has now flllS~etl. Neverthele::;s we are still receivin~~: some and t~e will continur to Recent them. '-'R. SPEAKE~ (Or. Collins) : Are there anv further oeti tions? 3093

~larch 17, 1 ')76 Tape 1174 IB-1 ><;> 1\Pf.AK!':" (nr. r.ollins): T.he hon. memher for lHnc!sor-Iluchans. ~IJ'. !"LICHT: ~·r. ~peaker, I r:l.se to support the petition, the prayer o~ the pet:lt:ion so ably presented by the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). I rise to support it, Sir, for t~To reasons, tl~O basic reasons. 0ne is that I am from a clistrict that :1 s totally ~mel completely against most of the recommendations as presentee! in the Hhite Paper. The other one is that I am personalJy against it.

I have hacl a considerable amount of experience in snomnobiling in this Province, as much probably as any member of th:ls P.ouse sitting here tc-i'ay, <>.nd I intend to support any petitions that oppose the T\'hi.te Paper as has been presentec1. As statecl in the petit:ion, Yr.

Speaker, there appe?.rs to be no input at al] :In the l'h:lte Paper from people who are knowledgeable :In the operation of skidoos, or for that TT!atter people "'ho are concerned wHh the cl~tl'lage that skidoos are c1oing to our wilcll ife or our environment. '!'here are r.ecommenr'!at:lons :In the regulations in the r·'hite Paper that are worthy of comdc'erat:l .on. However,the fpelfnr :In th:is T'rov:lnce, the feeling of the people I have talked to, .!'r.

Speaker, and the letters that I have received from all over Newfoundland, the phone calls I have received from all over ~:er,,fonnd]and,is that most of the recol11!1!endations in the White Paper are s:l.,.,ply not acceptable, and certainly not acceptable outs:lcle of the 11.J'lits of ~t. John's. I suppose that anyone vT.o r:lses to support pet1t:lons or to oppose the Phite Paper w:!Jl be accuse~ of trying to maJre cheap poln:tcnl pc-:!nts. I find this he•'il~ering, ~·r. fpeaker, bec:wse \·•hat Is a person suppose>~ to r'o if he bel:!.eves :In something or :Is oppose~ to somethinr,?

The moTT!ent that he gets up to oppose ~ ~!h:l te l'aper ~ MR..tiiCKEY: Why did you not send us your information - t'l'. 1''LHilt"': ~·r. Speaker, I recei vee' - _MR.HIClCEY: '~. F'LlGHI: It is too late for that. T.he minister :l.nd:!.cated in his m:l.nisterial rep1y that the 3094

'l'ape 1174 ~'T'. FT.Tr:H'l'; n>cl"berl> r>f tllr r>ppnP.it:lr>n n:!r' nnt have input fntn the Phfte T'aper. I Hill spea}. for myseJ f. 1 ,.;m; not fware there ••as a T·'rite Paper in the process ·of 1-,einr r'nwn up until I rece:lven :It At my home to•m after the ''mrse har' cJ oserl. Nohocly har' inv1 ter' T"V - ""'. T!Tr'(EV; ~- pn1nt of or<'P.r, "r. Speaker. 1 do nnt •·•ish to :lntP.rntpt ~"Y hnn. :frienr' 1-.ut T no "'ant to cr>rrer.t.

T c':lr' not. sny Ill-2 thnt there P<1S no :lnp\lt by :'flA' s. 1 saj r' there 1.•ere no r<"~n~ent:l;~t1.ons, bps:frally no recom!'lenrlations,rer.ei"P-r' frol'l ''H~ 's after the ''ldte J'?per w•s issuecl Fith the except:!on of a few. Tt is criticism onJy. nn•er, p1 ease~ '!'hP. \h;.ir '1-lilJ not ronsii'er that a potnt of orner ~'ut ss an <"Xplanatory note. ~IT'. FT.1r.HT: ''r. ~pr•<'!l:er, T "rePpt the cr:!tidsm froTl' the hon.

":ln1ster r>f ''ir:hPays thAt or - .A~J Jlf'l!-1. ~"F>'I)f."; '~'our:! sJ11, '"' FT.Tc:J1'1': ~lo, the ":ln:fster of Transportat:l .on anrl Communi r;~t:lons l>ac'l inc:1:1 catec'l th11t the r,mJ.y th:!ng that caMe from me, 1 presu111e, ' ''"s r.r:!t:ldsl". He is absolutely r:lp:ht, l'r. Spel'lker, ;mel th~>t :!.s all that :Is g0inp; to co'lle froll' Il'e :Is critidST" of I"Ost 0f thP po:!nts in thAt ~·lhitP Paper. MR.MORCAN: Why not some recommendations! '"' SPEAKE": nrrler ~ '"' 'C'f,Tr:P'l': Vr.

Spe11ker, T nm prepared aDCl so are hunc:'rerts of other people - T have attcnc:'ecl l'leet~np;s in th:ls past month ~:here lmnc:'recls nf peopl P have :!.ncl:l c.1'tec'l their rlesire and their w:tll ingness to meet,or h;~,•e th.e:lr repre!'entntfves meet ":!th the ''in:lster 0f "'ourism ":lth tbe h0pe ~nd the prayer of hav:lnr: soT"e input into the 1 er:!

I'll fit j_on th:t t ~d l J he forthcoll':fnp: co"P.ring the rep;ulat 1 ems u~der Hh:l ch sl• :fr1 oos tdll be operate(! :l.n th:!.s Province. >'r. f.real<er, :1~ supporting petitions ?nd :1" oppC'Is:lnr; t.he l·!"5te Paper per se AS :It is !'leans that nne w!Jl be atcusecl 0f 3095

~'arch 17, l "76 '!'ap e 117 4 IB-3 ~·t>. FLTC:ET: using it for c~eap pnlf.tical purposes, then I stanc1 here anc1 accept that crHfdRm because T will so do. !~r. Speaker, I support wholehenrtedlv the petft:l.on so ably presented by the me!'lber for LaPoHe ("r. ~l eary) . 3096

March i7, 1976 Tape 1175 PK - 1 MR. SPEAI<,ER (Dr. Collins) The hon. Minister without Portfolio. MR. t.lELLS: Mr. Speaker, I wish to present a petition from - MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker , I - MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! MR. WELLS: Oh, I am sorry. MR. SPEAKER: (Dr. Collins): The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. ROUSSEAU: I would just like to say a few words on that petition, Mr. Speaker, if I may, please. MR. SPEAKER: Yes. MR. ROUSSEAU: First of all I would like to say, if the Rouse will bear with me,by the way that although the hon.

Minister of Tourism is getting the flack for this from the hon. Minister of Social Services, from the hon. Minister of Education, from the hon. Minister of Health, to the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs; government is responsible for that,not the Minister of Tourism, And nothing was done by the Minister of Tourism that was not approved by every man sitting on the front benches of this Rouse. When we talk about the question of the white paper, Mr.

Speaker, I think during the past thre~ years almost, two years in the Rouse of Assembly, those members who sat in the last session of the House will recall question after question, when is it coming out? When is it coming out? It came out, Mr. Speaker, as a result of many representations from a lot of people across this Province, maybe not done officially by request, but certainly done with a lot of input unofficially and in some cases officially from many groups around this Province.

But I would like to suggest in the petition from the hon. member, you know, nobody on this side of the Rouse rejects the fact that people across this Province are to have an input in it, in my area,and in my hon. colleague's from Nas~aupi (Mr. Goudie) and my hon. colleague from St. John's Centre (Mr. Murphy), and my hon. colleague from the Burin Peninsula (Mr. Hickman) or from the Northern Peninsula(Mr. Maynard) have many different problems in respect to snowmobiles. And I can assure the hon. members of this House that we have our arguments 3097

March 17, 1976 Tape 1175 PK - 2 Mr. Rous s eau: too,but, of course, maybe are under the misconception that we no longer live in a democracy. What we are attempting to do as a government• and the Minister of Tourism is only the frontal attack of it, and what we are trying to do is to give the people the democratic right to have their input into these regulations. The white paper is merely a request for suggestions.

Now the Minister of Tourism will be told certain things by us in Cabinet or in Caucus, and he will be told in the House, and he will be told by these representations that are made to ~ople, and it is unfortunate that the people of this Province have misread this-maybe that is our fault, I do not know ~1hat fault it is - but I think the concept of a white paper is a fine comcept.

It is an opportunity for everybody in this Province, in the many different areas, in the many different regions to have input into it, and nobody is saying that the regulations they have now are the regulations that are going to be now and forever. The regulations I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that come out of this white paper will be looked at with serious consideration after every representation made by everybody across the Province. I do not ·think that the minister himself or his department or the government is that insensitive to the feelings of the people in the Province.

So I would not like for hon. members across, especially the hon. member from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) in respect to his petition, think that the gcvernment is against this sort of thing. The mechanics we may argue because this may take some time, but certainly the representations have been asked. I can say for my own part that even now that the deadline is passed, the minister has said privately to me ~hat anything will come in he will accept as many as he can, and give them sympathetic consideration they deserve. And it is unfortunate, Mr.

Speaker, that this concept of a white paper?which I think is a very good concept in this Province\ and which I hope will continue,has been misinterpreted and maybe because of the problem we had in this particular instance. Government may learn that in future white papers we would not have the same sort of problem. But I can assure the people of this House and the people of this Province that the 3098

March 17, 1976 Tape 1175 PK- 3 Mr. Rous'seau: government will give sympathetic consideration to every representation made in respect to snowmobile regulations. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS) Are there any further petitions? MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I want to have a few words on the petition presented by the han. member from LaPoile (Mr. Neary), to support the comments made by my colleague the Minister of Tourism and the previous speaker.

It seems to me that the c~ sion that is arising here is the fact that a lot of the members, and this is not meant to be an unkind criticism, but a lot of the members are not aware of what a white paper is all about. MR. ROWE: Make it clear. MR. W. CARTER: In that the - and this I believe is probably the first one. MR. F. ROWE: A~Y particular side? MR. W. CARTER: No. One second now. This is probably the first one that is being issued by government in this Province in the past twenty­ six, twanty~ seven years. SOME RON • MEMBERS : Oh. oh! ~!R. W.

CARTER: And of course the fact that maybe they are not acquainted with the importance of a white paper is understandable. MR. ROWE: On a point of order, please! MR. W. CARTER: But certainly it is a vehicle by which people who will be affected by the regulations are given a chance to respond and to react. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! MR. F. ROWE: On a point of order, if I may. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): A point of order has been raised . MR. F.

ROWE: I believe, Sir, what is happening now is that we are not only supporting nor debating the petition presented by the member from LaPoile but we are in fact debating the white paper itself. AN RON. MEMBER: That is what it seems like., 30.99

March. 17, 1976 Tape 1175 PK - 4 MR. F. ROWE: Yes. And this is not - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. F. ROWE: - the purpose of this particular order of business of the House of Assembly. This is the place where we present and support petitions . And we are off track completely, and 1 would suggest, Sir, that we end debate at the present time on this particular petition, unless we are prepared - MR. NEARY: Take it off the floor of the l!ouse? MR. F. ROWE: -unless we are - I am not finished - unless we are prepared to support the petition.

But we are talking about a different top i c entirely and that is the white paper itself . Now I am quite sure, Sir, that all members of the !:louse of Assembly understand what a white paper is, and we do not need the ministers of the Crown to explain . to members on this side of the House,or any side of the House, what a white paper is. 3100

Harch 17, 197fi. Tape 1176 RH - 1 fiR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The hon. the House Leader. MR. WELLS: I think the position arrives in this House where one's views on petitions happens to change frequently depending on which side the member is who happens to be speaking. I think that it is quite clear,and I do not think at the moment that the hon. member is doing anytning different from what has been done since the House opened to resume this session a week or so ago. There has been a tremendous amount of time taken up- AN !ION • MEMBER: Too much! HR.

WELLS: -Too much,quite frankly, as my hon. friend says- dealing with petitions. }IR. NEARY: This is not the time to be making a point of order. This is tl)€' ti.me to f!:et on wit~) the business of the House. ~fR.. WELLS: No, I know. Hut the thing is that members in this House, Mr. Speaker, are going to have to, I think~if we are going to get through the business of the House at all, Nobody wants to curtail remarks on petitions. If they could be short enough! I mean,surely the matter of a minute or two would s~em to me to be long enough - MR. NF.ARY: Only take time enough to give the message. ~m.

HELLS: - that is right - to indicate whether one supports or otherwise. I do believe that debate on the petition and discussion of the merits of the petition, should be reserved to the general debates • such as the Address in Reply, the Budget Debate, all the debates when one can speak generally on petitions. }ffi.. SP.EAKER (Dr. Collins) : The hon. member for St. John's East. l!R. W. MARSHALL : Mr. Speaker, I would like to address myself to that point of order as well because there has been an awful lot of time taken on petitions so that we do not get into the debates,and I want to get into the debate later on.

We have been a half an hour on it as of now. I rlraH Your Honour's attention to Standing Order (92), Your Honour, of the Standing Orders. It says that, "Every member offering a petition to 3101

~'nrch 17, l'l7(;. l"R. MARSHALL: Tape 1176 RH - 2 the \louse shall confif!e himself to the statement of the parties from whom it comes, the number of signatures attached to it and the material allegations it contains. In no case shall such a member occupy more than five minutes." So, Mr.

Spea"Y.er, it l~ould appear to me that a lot of the debRte that has occurred on petition, dehate and talk with respect to petitions,is outsicle of Standing Order (92) and while the petitions are beneficial they are >,Jacking up the time of the House so that we are not getting into the dehate, the useful clebate and the necessary dehate that should he occupying our time. He are coming here every day and spending an hour to an hour and a half,and the rule is there - MR. NEARY: You l~ant to cut them out. HR. I!ARSHALL: - the rule_ is there, Mr.

Speaker, if it is enforced, f.or the purpose of curtailing,and I would suggest, respectfully suggest that this perhaps .should he the mode lve should take. l!R. W. CARTER: This is the exact reason, Hr. Speaker, why I am making these few remarks. I do not - the fact that there will be - HR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): Order, please! Order, please! May I ask the hon.minister is he speaking to the point of order? :-\R. GARTER: ~IR. SPEAKER : I am still talking to the petition, Yr. Speaker. Pardon me, just to comment on the point of order.

A point of order is before the House~and as I indicated a little while ago we have set some precedent in this sitting for comments after the original han. me~'er has presented a petition. On that point I think the Standing Order (92) limiting time to five minutes does refer to the presenter of the petition and nowhere in our Standing Orders is there anything said specifica -lly about those who comment on the petition. So we are going purely on precedent here that we have really established, I understand 9 in this sitting.

I think the feeling of the House is that we have perhaps gone beyond what is intended and I think that discussion on this particular position now has spilled over into debate. I would ask any further han. members who lvish to conunent to be as brief as they possibly can and to carefully ohserve the feelin~~; of the House thnt the retuarks shnu1d he rHrecterl sole·] y to the petition and to whether they support or otherw:l se. 3102

l1arch 17, 1976 Tape No. 1177 NH - 1 MR. SP!AKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. r.IR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I will certainly follow the ruling of Your Honour, but I want to make it quite clear now that in~ comments I was referring to the petition, indeed offering it my support.

I think that the white paper that was presented by government on the regulations we are now discussing, at least the ones referred to in. the petition, that is the purpose of it, to solicit ideas, views, expressions of interest, objection ~pproval and what have you, from . people who ~~ill be affected by the regulations that are contained, or at least outlined in the white paper . But I cannot .help, Mr. Speaker, before I take my seat to again repeat what I said earlier that it is quite obvious that the hon. members opposite are not used to white papers.

They have been here for the past twenty-five and there has never been one presented. smm RON. HEMBERS: Oh! Oh! 11R. W. CARTER: But I should point out to them- ~'R. SPEAKER: Order, please! ~ ·'R. v1. CARTETt: I should point out to them that in the other House, in OttmJa, in the House of Commons, that white papers are very prevalent. Almost every major issue that arises will result in a white paper or a pink paper or a green paper, yellow paper, call it what you want.

And that is done for the very reason that we are doing this, to solicit ideas, views, and expressions of interest, approval or otherwise, from t~e people that will be affected by it. But certainly, Mr. Speaker, I do support the petition.

I respect the right of the petitioners to make their views known and to do it in a manner which they have elected,through their member,and I am sure that before any regulations are implemented that are contained in the white paper that other Newfoundlanders, all Newfoundlanders, w ~ll be given a chance to express their views and to disapprove of the recommendations or to approve of them, whif.chever they might see fit. SOf'E liON. l"'DIBERS : Hear! Head 3103

~'arch 17, 1976 Tape No. 1177 ~ - 2 1~. S~EAKER (~R. COLLINS): Any further petitions? The bon. House Leader. :MR. WELLS: Yes, one further petition, Hr. Speaker, and I ~·rill be very brief, It is a petition from approximately 100 people in my own district of Kilbride and Your Honour's district · of St. John's South, from His Honour the Speaker's district of Waterford-Kenmount and from the district of }{ount Pearl. And essentially what it concerns, "r.

Speaker, is the land freeze and it is an objection registered on the part of Inn people as to the land freeze itself and the freezing of agricultural land, and they bring up various things in a rather lon11: letter, ~,·hich I will not read, attached to the petition and they ask that government give consideration to this matter and to altering the terms of the land freeze so that more building can go on in the districts concerned vith this. So, Mr. Speaker, I support the petition and iupport the petition and ask that it be tabled and referred in due course ' to the department to which it relates. HR. SPEAKER (DR.

COLLINS) : The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MP.. ROHE: Nr. Speaker, on behalf of my colleagues I would simply like to }T. NEAPY: I thought I was up first. HR. Rmm: Just a minor-mix up 'Steve' • You will have your turn. I am not going to be very long. 1- lr. Speaker, on behalf of my colleagues on this side of the House I would like to support the petition presented by the Minister without Portfolio on behalf of I believe 100 citizens in the districts of Kilbride, St. John's South, Haunt Pearl and I think he mentioned one other - :m. WELLS: H'aterford-Kenmount. NT\. ROWE: \~ aterford-Kenmount.

I am not completely, Sir, farniiiar with the details concerning the land freeze although I am a~m're of the fact that there is concern and need for the altering of the terms of the land freeze and I would simply like to add our support to the 3104

}larch 17, l9- 6 Tape No. 1177 NM- 3 ~~. noWE: petition . MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Any further petitions? ~fJ' . NEARY: I ~;•holeheartedly support the prayer of the petition, Sir. This has been a very tho=y subject ever since it has been introduced, the land freeze by the government,and they either have to now, Sir, move or get off the pot. They either hnve to offer these people the going price for their land or they have to lift the freeze, one t } 'ng or the other. t'R. Sf'EAKER (D'I'. COLT. INS): Any further petitions? The hon. member for Baie Verte - White Bay. t~.

RIDEOt.rr: I rise to present a couple of petition in the series of electricity petitions that we have been receiving latel y . I have one here from the Local Improvement nistrict of Seal Cove in lOhite Bay,and I have one here from the Community of Ro ~ erts Arm in r.reen ~ay . I think probably that all thet needs to be said in support of these petitions have been said during the past few dnys in this Rouse ,so that in that spirit I support them and I ask that they bP. laid on the table of the Rouse aod referred to the a~propriate departmen t. 3105

March 17, 1<17fi Tape no. 117R Pap.e 1 - mH Anv further petitions? The hon. member for Windoor - lluchans. Mr. Sneaker, I would like to present a petition on hehalf of the town of Rad~er. The netition contains approximatelv 'l~n names. AP:ain the nraver of the netition is oPposing anv further incr1!ases in electric !'lOt?er and in keeping with my colleal"ue' s remarks, thP. hon. memher for Bide Verte - 'Alhi te llav (Hr; Rirleout), T think there is nothin~ that I can sav in support of .tn!s netition th~t has not alrearlv heen said.

I sunnort the praver of the netition ann wish to have it laid on the table of the House and be dealt with hv the ~enartment to ~~ich it relates. Are there further netitions? The hon. memher for Trin.i tv - llav de Verne. ""' • l'. l!01·J"P. ~ 1 heP: leave to oresent a Petition on hehalf --------- - of some eiv,htv-five citizens of the communitv of New Perlican in the district of Trinitv - llav de Verde, Sir. And this netition relates to the increase in electrical rates which were announced while I was absent from the Province, as a matter of fact.

Sir, obviously thE" netition ob.1ects to the original 40 :':: increase and anv subseGuent alterations that have been made over the last few wee}s. Sir. in sneakinv, in supnort of the netition, I can only say that a fet? months af'O I stood here in this House and preclicten that ,,,e wonJil he, in all likelihood, facin~ an increase in electrical rates in t'l,e 'Provi.nce,or a ration of electricity,hec;ause of the failure of the v,overn~ent to use alternative sites of. hvdro nower in the Province instead of zeroing in or nutting all its eggs in one basket on the · C:ul1 Island site development.

At that time, Sir, the Minister of Mines and Energy 1\istinr,uished himself bv calling me a twit, with or without the •,~·. Now since I have returnerl to the Province I have ''•itnessed and read the electrical rates that were passed or approved by - the increase in electrical rates that were approved by Cabinet. So, Sir, we on this Ride are certainly in favour of anv petition of this nature that comes 3106

March t7, 1 <171; Taoe no. ll7 R Page 2 - 11M ' lr. ". ~01-1e . - ---- hefore the Rouse t n oh~ectin~ to the oronosed increase in electrical rates in this Province, and Mr . Sneaker, I ask that this netition be nlaced unon t he table of the House and referrcit to the department to wh:!.ch it relates. ORAL ()l!F.~TION S: MR. SPP.AKER (Dr. Collins): The hon. member for LaPoile . MR. NF.ARY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of t he evidence of nrofiteerln~, Sir. reflect:e ~ in the Provincial ~~yJls try Offi ce in the matter of the land tra.nsaction in connection with the construction of th e Aquarena over Tte.re on the campus of l>femorial Universi ty , and also in view of the Premier ' s comments made in The Evening Tele Rram,made publicly, condemninR the Summer C:ames Committee for not callin n public tenders, will the minister responsi ble for recreation info rm t he House ~rha t action is ~oin~ to he taken to remove the veils of secre.cv and possible vheelinR snit ~ealinl! and collusion in this whole matter tha t involves over $5 million o~ provincia l ~overnment's money?

MR. SPFAK~ (nr. Collins): The hon. Rouse Leader. 3107

"!arch i7, 1~76 Tape No. 1179 m~- 1 ~'P. INET.LS: ~r. Speaker, in connection with the question of the hon. the member, I think the hon. member is referring to a question which he asked some days ago, or some hon. member asked some days ago, I think the hon. member for - •m. NEA~Y: I am the only one on this side who has asked a question. ~'P. WELLS: Since the hon. member asked the qufstion, with respect par-ticularly to the land transactions, I have had copies of the transactions taken from the Registry of Deeds, "'r. Speaker, and I have examined them.

The price - · from the deeds th~elves, the price is not clear of what was paid, but it ~~ould appear to me that for one piece of land of approximately 0.6 acres, just over half an acre with a house on it,~ms paid $17S,OOO,and for another piece of land uhich ~10uld appear to be something of the order of seven to eir,ht acres, the figure is not clear,but there is an affidavit attached to the deed to indicate that it is worth not less than $500,000. M1' .• NFA~Y: What was paid for it? ~. ~m,u;: HeJ 1 nm·r does the hon. member want an ansver to the question? The point is, ~·r.

Speaker, I think that the prices appear to he such that I believe that an explanation should be asked as to the '~hole transaction~and I am in the process nm.r of drafting a letter to the committee asking for an explanation,asking the basis on which these pr:l.ces "-'ere !'a:l,d. ~N RON. ~Ml.IER: ll:ear! Hear! •m. SPE~KER: The hon, member for Concept:lon Bav South. ~fl'. "TOLAN: A "upplementary on the same point, "1-fr. Speaker, and that is I wonner :l.f the hnn.

House T.eader would be good enough ,.rh-l_le looking at this transaction,in the reporting of the item mentioned you will f;lnd that there Here a certain number of dollars paid for specific pieces of property but also _t;lere v?as the 'mraing "cE'rtain otl·cr ~ovsiderations!' Would that information be available to the House and uhat arc· tl~e consideration? 11 ~. HELLS: I do not know ~-That those considerations are but I think T shoulc:! make it clear to the House that if and Hhen, presumably 3108

''arc\1 17, 1~76 Tape 'lo. 1179 n~. !''ELLS: uhcn an explanation is received the explanatior •!ill come to the government and it will be a government decision,of course,as to what is done with that information. I cannot commit the government at this t1me to tabling it in the House. Tllis is a matter for government to decide. HR. SPEAKER (!1J. . COLLWS): The hon. member for Baie Verte­ ~-lhite Bay. ~m. rnnEOt'T: Nr. Speaker, I have ;:~ ·-:.uestion for the :!inister of !lealth, Would the minister inform the House as to the current status of planning for the proposed Burin Peninsula Hospital? 'l-IT'. SPEAKER (DR.

COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Health. t'l'. COLLINS: ~·r. Speaker, I presume the hon. member is asking the question because of an item which appeared in The Daily News today,ar!d I th1.nk it was on the radio station a l:f.ttle while ago, ~~here the Health Council on the Peninsula made a statement that they have been trying to get an appointment with the Minister of Health since January.

I have checked out the department and there has been no contact between any of those p~ople and myself or the department, no contact ~•hat ever. lVith regard to the hospital, planning is continuing but there is to be no construction in this year. ~IT'. SPEAKER: The hon. memper for LaPoile. ><P..

NEAllY: I vould like to ask the ~'inister of Health, Sir, "'hat extra­ ord:l.nary action,if any, his department is taking in connection ~rith the Baie Verte drinking ~rater supply that apparently is polluted with asbestos and v.•hat extraordinary action his department is taking t,•ith regard to the occupational health hazard in the mine and in the mill in Baie ''erte? m'.. SPEAKER. (Dr... COLLINS): The hon. :Hinister of Health. MR. COUINS: ~r. Speaker, I answered the second part of that quest _ion in response to some hon. member opposite last week.

With regard to the first part, the Director of Occupational Health, Dr. Colohan,and the Director of Public Health Inspection Services, Hr. Strong, were in Baie ~.'erte 3109

~'arch 17, 1976 Tape No . ll7o ''1>. COJ.LINS: last ni ght at n meeting. I have not receive d a report from them yet. NJ'I- 3 ~1R . NEAR'i: Jrr. Speaker, supplementary; would the minister indicate if nr. Colohan waat to Baie Verte on just a routin e mission or did he go down with the intent ion of holding a public meetin g'? ' lt'.. COLLUIS: There ~~~ consultation wl.th the mayor in Baie Verte, ~·r. Speaker, and l"r . Colohan 's visit and t:r. Strong ' s vis it '~as as a re sult of that after a meeting was set up with the To•.:n Council. ~~ . SPEAKER (DR.

COLLINS): The hon . member for Concepti on ~ay South . ~'R . NOLAN: :•r. Speaker, a f!uestion for , I sup pose it might be all right to addres s this to - no. the ~'inister of Education is in the House, and t hat is conce rning an announcement tod J y concerning the Pine Grove ~chool , There is speculation apparently that the government will make available something like $50 ,00 0 or $55,000 to effect oece.ssary renovation s or whatever to t he school . One, is this a fact, and, secondly, when will the money be presented or forthcomin g t o effect the nece ssary preparat ions or renovations tl1ere? 3110

Tape 11~0 IB- 1 If I may, '·'r. Speaker, it comes uncler the nepartment of P11hHc T-lorks in the sense that ~··e are cloing the work. I was askecl a question this mornine by one of the newspapers in the 'Province a.nd T. checl-.e<' on it and indeed there is authorization for an expenfl:lture somewhere in ,the area of $So,nnn to $60,000. I think the Hgures if $56,rJ0!'), I flo not k.no"' precisely. ThiS was communicated t.h:!s moryd.nr. publicly to that paper. For the information of the House, number one; the eyrnnasiui"; there is to be some Pork clone on the gymnasium, the removal of sol'!e w•ooc'en bea.!".s.

Th:ls cannot be r1one until the Su1"1!1er because c>f the fact that ~t ~··0ulc! take the gyrmas1.\ll!' out of circnJation for a ~-·h:lle. ::1teel :!,: being 0rflerecl ' nm·~ ;mel it ~d1J bP instaJlecl, the heaMs, for the r>r<"n space this Sni11T'ler Phen the school :Is cJosec1, 1\1n!11her tHo, in respect. t0 the heating probJe111s they have, the rat'! :I ;o_t0rs, there :Is somebocly frol'" the J'1epartrnent of I'nbll c l'0rks c:'lown thf're no~·'· They have been checking on the parts that. are nee<'ec to i.!'lprove the racHation equ:l.pment.As soon ns the parts are speci fiecl as to \.fdch ones ~•e want they ••i 11 be orC'erecl and as soon as they arr1ve they w:l.ll be installed. r>n Fri<'ay,as a result of tenders being callecl,the firm of, I think, Amos Spurrell ,.-:llJ be <'0:ln!!: the carpenter \Wrk in respect to the renovations, coJ 1 the wrrk thP.t has to be done down there.

They should have . startecl th:is !11orn:l.ng,actually,hut because of the storm they are not able to but they vHl be startinr, tomorrow r.10rn:l.ng. vr. !';P~/11/J\T' (T'r. ~o!Hn~); .~ supplementary? ,., NOLA!'!: ro, I ""ould J :Ike to thank the minj ster. ~rr. f:PF.AY.En (!1r. r.oll:ffls): '111e. bon. me.~ber for Port au Port. I'". 'l.ODTlE~ : A question for the "in:!ster of Fisheries. Wr>ulcl the l'l:ln:lster aclv:lse th£> Tionse of the condition of the scallop bee's in Port au Port !lay ancl whether the Bays will be open to res1dents for the commercial fishery~or is it alreavy open? , YT'.

SPF.J\KEf!: The hon. ~·:inister of Fisheries. 3111

~·arch 17, 1976 Tape 1180 ~'T'. H. C.A~TEJ>: ><r. Speaker, I will take notice of that question. I will have an answer at a later date. M'T' . SPE!IKEl'. ( r . r.oll i ns) : The hon. member for I,aPoile. lT .• NJlAPY: l'r. Speaker, I ~-muld like to ask the han. the Premier if he ha~ checkerl out the reports emanating from Churchill Palls that the salaried employees, the management people :l.n Churchill l'alls,are getting preferential treatment when it comes to gaso]ine to operate their cars to take their children to school IB-2 in thirty below temperatures ,~rhile the rank and file cannot purchase gasoline?

Has the ~remier checked this out? Hould he also when he i.s on his feet tell us 1>1hat role the Cl'LCo jet is playing in this whole matter while the dispute is on at ChurchiJl "!"aJl s? }'P.. SPEA.'<F.P: The han. the Premier. P!'EI-'IER l'OOPES: }'r. Speaker, regarding both questions,really it is I! matter of the Hydro Commission being involved.

We have been involvecl in this context, that we ~•ant to ,if humanly possible, brinr. the situation to the realm of possibility, I p.:uess, at th:!s stage of the rame, of trying to get both parties back at the table so that they can taU· and try to resolve all the problel!' .s that are there. The specifics that the hon. members mentions, J clo nnt knm,• the details of them, but certainly what I am very concerned :<bout~ as I knol>1 he is ancl other people in this !louse, js that the situation he resolver as C]tdckly as possible and get everything back on an even keel. . ~'11.. N.F:f.".Y : ~'r.

Speaker, a supplementary: Would the Premier. undertake to get the Rouse the information as to whether or not there is any cl:!.scdm:!.nation in the distribution of gasoline, you knm,•, to the ordinary rank and file as opposed to management people? Th:ls seems to be causing an awful lot of fuss • PPJ:~·IEP l'(lflT'f.S: ("erta:l .nly, ~'r. Speaker, "'e w:!ll fin(! out whDtever is outstancl:!ng in th:!s particular clispute~but what I ''auld rather clo, 3112

.•. ¥arch 17, 1976 Tape 1180 IB-3 PPE}IT.'EP HOOP.~S: which I think would-be much -more proper, is to come to this House with a resolution to the whole problem. ~'!J. NEAl'Y: Yes,but this has nothing to dp with the dispute. This is the sale of gasoline. PRm '!ET' ~OO T'ES : \¥ell it does really. ~·r. SPEAKEP. (nr. Collins): The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. r•r. Speaker, I Y,'Onder if the Premier could clear up certain curiosities with respect to his meeting with Premier Bourassa lately.

Did the Premier indeed agree with the Premier of Quebec that · all Canadians shotolcl be held financially responsible for the Olympic Games or - Mi HON. ME!IBF.P : Oh , oh! } ~. F. 1"01-IF.: -I am not finished the question yet - or did the Premier agree tdth the Premier of Quebec on the patriation of the co.nstitution, or both,or is one separate from the other? PPEJ.'!E:P ~·OOPES: Ne:!.ther, ~·r. Speaker, neither. ~·r. Speaker, may I follo~' th:!.s with a supplement11ry?

T'l:ld the Prell'ier make any sort of a - I co not t·rant to use the trorfl deal - but try to make any sort of an agreement w:lth the r.rem:!.er of Quebec with respect to the ITpper Churchill agreement, y,~dch ;!.s presently 1n effect tow·ards changinr; it for the pettement of ~Iewfoundl 11 nd? MR. SP&\KER (Dr. Collins): The hon. the Premier. J'l'ID'!ET' "f10"F.S: Mr. Speal < er, unJ ikeJ y as it may sound to the Opposition '''e are not in the habit of 1!18.king deals.

The situation :l.s that I said in regarfling both the Olympics ~d the patriat .ion of the constitut:! .on a very definitive position as to various respons:!b:!Hties I had in both. ~?e will be talking with ~uebec Hydro and the Quebec Government next week regarding the hydro !mel energy c'evel.opl!'ent of P.astern Canada -:- not just specifically any ' one segment of that -and that ~-rill be subject after that d:tscussion J hope of further prop.ress. 3113

l'arch 17, 1 '176 Tape 1180 P·T'_f.~'IET' !'OOl'l'f': nut rep;2niing the constitut:lcm,wh:lch is the m:<1in cme - I :mswerec1 the oJ ymp:l c quest:! on yesterrlay, I think - rer;arr1:fnp the const:!.tut:l.on as such, the patriation of :It, 1 <•as there only :In one c:<1pac:fty and that <•a!l <IS thj!l ye:>.r being the r.hairl'lan ,-,f the Premier's Conference ~nrl .· 3114 rn-4

Harch 17, 1'!7fi Tape no. lUll Pap;e 1 - mw 1"remier Moores. they are totally in a neutal position, I think this is fair to say, and I thinY: this t.ras mv position at that time . I listened to what Premier Rourassa had to say. I have been advised that a letter from the Prime Minister will be gain~ to all Premiers in Canada this week outlinin~>; the position wherehv a first ministers' conference mav he held . If it is,the agenda,one would assume,would he enclosed. I think what has to be considered here is what does that agenda include?

Nm.r it can he the Prime Minister saying that this is the final onnortunitv to talk about the constitution,or it can be that it will he ongoing discussions. And that is what has happened for several vearF ·,as we all know. If it is ·angoin~ . discussions I thinl c there is work that can he done over the next year until the Premiers' conference next August in Alberta.

However, if it is going to he a definitive conference Hherehv the Prime Minister intends to bring back the constitution unilaterally 7 the thing that concerns Quebec, particularly, I could say would concern me as Premier of this Province, and I would think, hut I am not sure, but I think would concern other Premiers in Canada is that if the constitution can be brought back unilaterally the amendment formula to that constitution could also be done unilaterally.

Now '"hen we talk about the amendment formula we are talking about things where there are provincial or federal controls, and there are a p.;reat many grey areas in the constitution today, Mr. Speaker, that were not there a few years a~o, areas such as social progra~es administered by the Province, encroachment if vou like, into the resources of the provinces, You are talking about the urhan develonment programmes. There are a great many areas Where there is a grey area between the federal and provincial responsihilitv.

This would concern, I think, most oeople , but reallv for this point in time, Sir, I think what is best to say is that depending on receiving the Prime Minister's letter that will dictate whether I contact the other Premiers across Canada or not, and I think it is a fair comment to make •. But there were no commitments 3115

"1'arch 17, l'l7fi Tape no. lllll Page 2 - mw made on the constitution or strategv of how to approach it. What we are talking about is somethin~ of me hearing the Ouehec particular concern, and as mv responsibility as Chairman of the Premiers conference for this year passing on that information. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER (nr. Collins) : The hon. member for Trinity- Rav de Verde. MR . 'F. ROHE: --··--- Mr. Sneaker, a supplementary: nid I understand the Premier to say that he will he meetinR with officials of nuehec-Hyrlro 1ri.thin the next few weeks? nnEM~R MOORV:S: No, the Province of Ouebec.

MR. 'F. RO!.ffi: The Province of Ouebec. ~fr. Speaker, is this in connection wi ~h the Upper Churchill a~reement or projected work on the Lower Churchill? ~m SPEAKPR(nr. Collins): The hon. Premier. ":'REMIER MOORtS: Mr.

Sneaker, I thought I had made it clear, and I am sorry that I did not. ~fuat I think we were talkinR about is that Premier Rourassa and his Minister of Mines and Energy,and myself and the Minister of Mines and Energy will he meeting the first part of next week to talk about, not just the Upper Churchill or Gull Island or the regional grid but really about the enerp;v situation as it applies to Eastern Canada because Ouebec and NeWfoundland and Labrador are the only producing nrovinces todav in hvdro electricity. There are very little other opportunities in Canada.

So we will be talkinR with them regardinp; all the facets that involve ener!zy in Eastern Canada. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The hon. member for LaPoil e . MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. Premier, Sir, if he has had an opportunity in the last few weeks since the hon. non Jamieson has been appointed Minister of Industrv, Trade and Commerce, if the Pre~er or any representative of the provincial government have had an opportunity to sit down face to face with Mr. Jamieson 3116

Talle no. 1181 Page 3- mw to discuss any lllans or pronosals or assistance within Mr. Jamiestm's new denartment, that Newfoundland can take advantage of? If so, woul~ the Premier tell us what they are.? MR. SPF.A'K:F.R (Jlr • . Collins): The hon. Premier. ~F.R MOOR:F.S: The answer is, Mr. Speaker, that I have had a ~onple of meeti.ngs with Mr. Jamieson since he has been in his new 1JOrtfolio. He has heen on a trade mission to the 'Far East for tzhree or four ~-reeks I guess, and we have not criticized such an overseas mission at all from our side of the House. Hut the fact is, Sir, that SOME HON.

MEM'RERS : Oh, oh: ----.------ ~J.Ml'ER mORES: - the fact is, Sir, that, yes, we have talked to M'r. Jamieson. ~.re have talked very much in the area of de~elopment in Industry, Trade and Commerce, and I would hone and e~ect and think that it will be very helnful in the months ahead. 3117

March 17, 1976 Tape 1182 PK- 1 MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member from Port au Port. MR. J. HODDER : A question to the hon. Minister of Education. In light of the fact that the minister promised the House that he wouid give a statement on the Bay St. George Community College - I think that was said in November,that he would make a statement on the Bay St. George Community College- is the minister now prepared to give such a statement? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Education. RON. W.

HOUSE: Sir, the Community College concept was set up early last year, and we sent a man out there to set it, Mr. Doug Fowlow, and I had been waiting for a report from him to give i n the House while the House was opened there in the Fall, But I did not get a report from him before the House closed, and I could not give a report in the House. So shortly after the House closed we got the report and we made an announcement through the media. And t think everybody heard that, I am sure they heard it on the West Coast,and I am sure they read it here. MR. NEARY: MR. HOUSE: Can you get a copy of the press release.?

Yes, I can get a copy of the press release. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The bon. member from Conception Bay South. MR. J. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, a question for the acting Minister of Public Works. For some time there has been discussion regarding, including in this House, the necessity for additional space for the provincial civil service and for the provincial government generally. Have tenders been called for additional space? Has any tender been awarded? And, if not, when will we have some information regarding this? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The acting Minister of Public Works. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr.

Speaker, I will have to take that as notice, and the question is a little too general. Have , tenders been called since when? What time period? Or what are the areas that the han. member is talking about? MR. NOLAN: Well 1 have tenders been called for additional space from now since Cabot arrived? 3118

March 17, 1976 Tape 1182 PK - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, - ,p~IER MOORES: Come on down to a nice quiet rlace. MR. NOLAN: But I do not drink the same .stuff you do, 'Frank'. No answer? MR. ROUSSEAU: No.I am going out as soon as you whiten down because you are red enough. MR. NOLAN: No answer1 MR. ROUSSEAU: Tenders were called some months back, Mr. Speaker, but no decision has been made on that. As a matter of fact about a year ago, but no decision was made. ~IR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member from LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. Is it correct then - is the statement made by the Leader of the Opposition correct that a contract has been entered into with Mr. Craig Dobbin for the old communications building down on Water Street, MR. ROUSSEAU: No. MR. NEARY: Is this correct as reported in the newspaper quoting the Leader of the Opposition? SOME HON, MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. ROUSSEAU: To my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, the government have not entered into a contract with Mr. Craig Dobbin · for the COTC Buidling. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for LaPoile on another supplementary. MR.

NEARY: The acting Minister of Public Works and Services, Sir, promised me about a week ago to get me some information on,No. 1, the target date of completion of the Health Science Complex, and whether or not the consulting, the management - what do you call him? the management - AN RON. MEMBER: The project managers. MR. NEARY: - ihe project managers were going to be replace4 - PREMIER MOORES: Scrivener. MR. NEARY: -that Scrivener were going to be replaced by a local company. 3119

March 17, 1976 Tape 1182 PK - 3 }!R. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, the target date of completion of the Health Science Complex is January 1, and it will take about th.ree months to co111111ission, so it will be some time available for occupancy around the 1st. of March . or April. ln respect to the second question 1 we have nothing whatsoever to I do with Scrivener Newfoundland. They are now being controlled by a receiver. Now there are two options to that receive~, because apparently Scrivener Engineering is gone into receivership and there are debentures owed by Scrivener Newfoundland.

And under the debenture that is owed, of course,the receiver enters into the picture here in respect to Scrivener Newfoundland Limited. And there are two options in respect of the receiver over which we have no control. The receiver may either sell the company or sell the shares of the company,or sell the rights they have to manage the Health Science Complex. In the case of the former 1 if the shares are sold by the receiver to any company,that is purely outside of the hands of government, Government has nothing to do with it, it is purely in the hands of the receiver.

If that is done then government has three months in which to give notice that it is not satisfied with the person who takes over, in the one instance, if the companies shares are sold. In the second instance, if the contract is sold then government has the right to approve whoever will be taking over the contract. And to my knowledge the receiver has not come to goveriunent yet with any definite proposal in respect to either. AN RON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member from Windsor-Buchans. MR. ROUSSEAU: To my knowledge it is they, it is not - }!R. G.

FLIGHT: I would like to direct this question to the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. In his statement rejecting an industrial inquiry for the Churchill Falls dispute, he indicated that the two parties concerned will be meeting in St. John's Thursday, or at least it was proposed that they would. Can he now confirm to the the House that they are indeed meeting in St. John's tomorrow,or shed any light on the proposed meetings? 3120

March 17, 1976 Tape 1182 PK - 4 MR •. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. HON. E. MAYNARD:· Providing that both parties can get in from Montreal and Churchill Falls, Mr. Speaker, they will be meeting tomorrow morning. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member from LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Transportation and Communications: What about the seat belt legislation now, is it going to be brought in this session?

Does the minister still intend, or has the minister taken a decision to make seat belts compulsory in this Province as they have done in Ontario? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. RON. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, any consideration or any final decision will be announced on that regard at the appropriate time in this Assembly. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The bon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. J. NOLAN: Mr.

Speaker; would the Minister of Tourism be good enough to bring us up to date on his most recent trip to Spain, the state of the Norma and Gladys, the crew, the temperature in Malaga and so on? SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. NOLAN: The what? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. LUNDRIGAN: How about the salt-and-pepper cap? HaN. T. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know where to start. I will give the bon. gentleman the weather forecast - MR. NOLAN: Start from Torbay. MR.

HICKEY: I will give the hon. gentleman the weather forecast first, and other than that it was approximately sixty-eight degrees according to my - AN RON. MEMBER: Thermometer. 3121

'·larch 17, 1 ')7(i. Tape 11R3 RR - 1 '!R. lUC::KEY: - accordin!'; to my instruments ~then I landed. SO~!E RON. HEMBERS: Oh, oh! VR. SPEAKER: fJrder,please! 1-!R. R.ICI<EY: Hell, Mr. Speaker, I am glad to hear that because that is the first time that I have been able to breath easily sinde. I ·got back. SOHE HON. }!F.MBF:RS: Oh, oh! 'IlL l!I.CKEY ; I am told if I had been locking at the set on Friday I might have some doubts about that as a res"' t of a certain editorial. Hmvever, ~r. Speaker; becoming a little more serious I might tell my han. friend that the voyage has gone quite well.

AN HON • IIDIDER: Hear, \].ear! . '!Jt. HICKEY: Th~ rece.pt.ions were just fantastic. Hare than a thousand people a day· went and visited the vessd - SOME HON . ~!BffiF:RS: !lear, hear! HR • HI CK.El' : - an estimated 25,000 according to one of the Spanish news- papers; an estimated 25 ,0'10 pe9ple visited the hoat and viewcc1 her from the wharf. An interesting point, Hr.

Speaker, on the seaworthiness of the vessel whic"t has cau,;ed a great deal of concern and comment especially from some hon. members opposite and some of the news media, 1 might set some minas at ease now, inform trem that the vessel's averar,e speed is six <1nd a half knots. She averar;e•l· eleven knots coming fro,., Cadiz to ~Ia] agil. A:·l !IC1N. HEIII\I'.r: How so? i!R. JTJCKEY: The other five knots, l'lr. ~peaker, was due to fifty mile an 'lour :-;ales and forty foot waves. So that should anm<er any questions about seaworthiness. smm nmi . nr:Hnrns : Hear, hear! ~ 1'.

HICKEY: I do not have her position today as yet. I might tell my hon. friend I neglected to gi'<e some information the last day T gave a pnsi.tion report: The Captain also requested a pepper-and-snlt cap, size si~ and seven-eights. 3122

ltarch 17, 1976. Tape 1183 RH - 2 }ffi. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): TI1e hon. member for LaPoile. HR. NEARY: Could the minister tell us if the Province has yet entered into an agreement with the Government of Canada in connection with the renewal of the R.C.M.P. contract, both provincially and municipally? NR. HICKMAN: No, Mr. Speaker. HR. NEARY: l!r. Speaker, a supplementary. Could the minister tell us when he expects to sign a new agreement or if there is any difficulties in negotiating an agreement? Hhat is the problem? Hr. Speaker, there has been a redrafted contract.

We have decided as provincial Attorneys General, that is the eight provinces who are parties to the policing contracts with the Government of Canada, that instead of having the Federal Government present us with a con·tract that we would have to accept or reject we would turn the scales and we presented them with a contract and asked them to accept it. We thought it was a yery good contract. There has been no reaction from the Solicitor General of Canada. I see no point in pushing him because unless and until he arrives and ~igns a new contract the old contract is in full force and effect. MR.

DOODY: He is probably asking some judge what to do about it. MR. HICKMAN: ~ we have done our work and the contract that has been submitted on behalf of this Province is pretty much identical except for certain peculiarities of this Province. HR. NEARY: ¥fuat about the Newfoundland Constabulary? Do you intend to put them into Corner Brook and Churchill Falls? HR. HICKMAN: Both police forces are operating very effectively, very efficiently in the Province of Newfoundland. I am delighted to report that both forces are receiving and have been receiving justly the accolades of the people of Newfoundland. l!R.

NEARY: Answer the questionl Answer the question! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. ~!R. J. NOLAN: A question for the !1inister of Justice, Mr. Speaker. We notice in the news in the last day or so that apparently lie detector tests 3123 •

Harch 17, l'l76. HR. NOLAN: Tape 1183 RH - 3 are being administered in this Province,or are about to be. I am \JOndering what the position of the minister is on this matter? PREMIER MOORES: Always tell the truth. A.l>l HON • NEMBER : Let us give it to him. PP-EMIER MOORES: I have never had to give one yet. 3!24

··~rch 17, 1'176 Tape J lP-4 ,. "' ~f'J .. AN : Well I wnu1 d s~y you are prohahly very htC'I<y. 'T'he other quest :I on, }'r. Speliker, is regarn:Jng t~ :!retapping :In Ne~rfoundlancl. J!as there heen any wiretapp:fng in the last twelve months :In th1 s Prov:l .nce? Not since the last adm:fn:lstration. ~lot since the last administrat:lon. These are my quest:lcms, ~·r. Speaker. ~'l' SPEAKEP (Clr. C.:>llins): The hon. ~'inister of .Justice. IB-1 ~. HHl~'AN: }'r.

Speaker, I t·•ill answer the second one first• because that has to he ileal t ~·:f. th and can only be Clealt ~r:lth under the appropr:fate provision of the Cr5.minal r::ocle of r.anana. I run r.overned hy thnt, hy these prov:!sions. l1ith respect to the first Cluest:f.on, "r. 1'peaker, the rolygraph tests that are usetl hy police forces in ra~acla anrl that are be:lng useCl here,anrl have heen useil herE'. for some t:fr.~e, are a:fcls to imrest1gat:lon ancl noth:! .np: more than thn t, nne! have never heen treat eel by t'te poJ :1 ce as anythinr: Tl'ore th;m a!' ai<' to investir;at:!on.

I run tolt! that they have a w~ry hiF:h r'egree of ac~c11racy and I ~·ould emphasize that they can on]_y be used at thr re<]nest or t~:fth the consent of the person subm:ltt:fng to such a test. There ha,re heen requests from til'le to time, T all' tol il,hy counsel for persons under invest:! gat:f .on that the:! .r clients suhm:f.t to that sort of test. But 1 t is an aiel and nothing more. Yott coulil not r:o :Into court and simply produce the results of " rolygraph test and say, this is the sufficient proof for a court to conv1.ct or acqu:ft.

There stilJ has to be the same degree of proof, proof beyond all reason~hle doubt~of the guilt of any person accused of an offense. ~- SPEAKF.~ (~r. ro1lins); The han. member for LaPoile. ~~. NF..IIr'Y: Hou]il the "in1.ster of SodnJ Services, !':!r, telJ t'le Honse hnt-r mnny families are presently l:lving in city hotels nnil motels and :In hoar~ing houses? If the !1'in1ster cloes not h:1ve t h e inform~>t1on ~Tould he undertake te> p,et the :l.nformation for the House ann tell the Rouse ~·hether th1.s is a serious problem 3125

I' arch 17, 1 "7f; <~t this parti~ul?r T'lomPnt rr nnt? ~·r. SPEf.J{J':T> (fir. "olJ b!'<) : "'he han. ''in:!ster o" Social ~"rvi ces. try to get the ans,~er tOT'IOT"rnt·7 . !.,., 1 1'T'PJTY: It is a ven• scri<"'" problem. J<t1. Sf'.:' A. 'F..,.. : The hon. rnc>mber fnr Il"Y of Jslanns. ,., .TJr:JOnT'f"'IP: ''r. Speaker, 1 thin1: ?11 the ammun:ltion has hl'en prol>ahlv u8e<1 nnH on the nt.heT llirle nf t.he Hct~se. I >mulr1 l:!ke tn <isl: " a.ne8t:lon Hh:l.ch I think has suTJstnnce. ':"he question :1 ~ to tl1e actin~ ''.injster of ""r1>!1r•il:it<1tion <tncl T>ccreatjon.

Flnt prorress .!s l·ein[' na<'e on tl 1e prnprs11.1 froJll the llumher n;,1Je:' -\ssodatinn for the mentaJl•, r0.tan 1cif f<:>r the est1'hl:lshr.ent nf a trajninr, center for menta) ly retarclecl a<1ults in rorner Brrnk to serve tl1e r.orner J1roo'--!lay of Tsl;:mc1s are<"? "'he scope. of t\e prob1eT'I is as follo,·s: "'he rress1T'r, 'leer' <JS :It presentf' it<"

e) f IB-2 to us is for " center to tr.-tin frow tHentv-five to d•irty 11'entally lJani!j capper.' pCT!'lons. :·r. f.pee1J.:er, T asJ-. thts (1Uestion bec<Jnse l••hen J W<tS 11. !11E'ml>cr of t}•r dty conncil. :In !Corner nrook T Has interestec' in t~1s orr.ani7.i"tion, ancl T m• sure thnt this r,overn.n>ent, with the cnmp;1.ss:lon tl:"t it has, Hil.J lool: favour<thly upon n pronos<'ll suc.h aR thi .s one. '"! SI'ft,J{ET': '!'he hon. ''i.n1ster v:fthout I'c>rtFo1:!c>. , .., . ·:!":.LL~: 1 aM c1e] i.ghtei! to rece:lve thP question froll' the hon. J"ember an~ c'o my best to anRFer it. ()u~te serionsJy, "r.

Speaker, the re(lnest has heen rece:!vec1 <"nrl obvious]y tl1e govern!'Tent iR con~ernec1 il.hc>t1t tl1e whole T"Atter of mentl'l health nnd the a111ount of T'\Oney that can be prov:!r'ei' frr fadlit:fes. c;o that the re~11est m:>[le h:r the groups in the han. 1"eJ1lher 18 tl:!strict is nc~r he:lng condclet"ecl by govem11'etlt and ~.'hen the 'nu'ret is brou~ht clown ancl fin.anc:llil provis:!om; for the combz ye"r are "'"c'e knm·m :In the House; 1-1ell il.t that t.i.me nncl :In the ccnsiclpr.ati<:>n of it, then Hhatever ftrntls can be proviclell for mental hcaJth all over the Province wiJJ be 3126

"rn:ch 17, 1 'l76 Tape 1181, IB-3 }!R. WELLS: provided, and the hon. ~ernher is going to have to wait, I think, until that tjwe for the ~etailed answer. But '"e are extremely concerned ,,·jth the matter. ~"' 1monr01~: Thank you. >'11 SPEA!'mP. (Dr. r.ollins): The hon. member for LaPoile • >'P.. NEARY: • ~_ question for the lt(m. the Prel!'ier., Sir. Would the 3127

!'arch 17, 1971i Tape No. 1185 N~! - 1 "P.. .NEARY: thP. hon. tloe Premier, Sir, would the !lon. the Prel!lier indicate what is going to happen to the 'Y!estern - ' 'R. SPEA£t.ER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! This ~~ill be the last question of this period. ~'n. NEARY: T,Jould the hon. the Premier indicate ~·That is going to happen to the Western Memorial Hospital, is it going to be closed, l'.ept open, turned into a nursing home, ~mat precisely will happen to the .\~estern >~emorial? ~'r.

Speaker, first of all here in the absence of the Leader of the Opposition and the absence of the member for Burgeo - Bay d 'Espoir (~lr. Simmons) and the around-the -bay- crowd ~-·ho are obviously storm bound, around the bay~! suppose 1 to Hogan's Pond, I .. auld gladly like to give an answer to that question. 'MR. ?£ARY: Now, now - PRF.HIER }'00RES: The situation is that I "ill be meeting with the citizens cotmnittee and the hospital col!1ltlittee in Corner ~rook. The government's position I think has been made fairly clear. This is a year of restraints.

We have announced that in our buiiding programmes in ho~pitals. There has been a delay in the opening of hospitals. There are a great many things in the way of restraints that wilJ be revealed at the time of the budget that has to be dealt with. In Corner Brook ·~e have got a ~22 million expansion that is opening as part of the addition to t"e Christopher Fisher Hospitale The Memorial Hospital out there, it is not a matter of its being abandoned 1it is a matter of ·~hat it i .s to be used for and trhen. It is not this government's intention to close it and neglect it, Sir.

There would be maintenance facilities, there would be :"1. NEARY: Geriatrics - PRE!'IER 1'110PES: - several things that can be done with it. But what the people on the Hest Coast or any<~here else have to realize at this particular point in our history is that only so much can be done at any given ttme,and I "Hill be meeting ~1ith these people and telling them in no uncf'rtain terms t~hat we feel is our limitations in t~hat t·le can do and certainly to the utmost of ~~hat Pe can do we ~rill do it. 3128

~arch 17, 1Q7F Tape No. 1185 N}' - 2 ORDERS OF THE DAY: HR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): This being Private Members' DAy when the House adjourned debate the discussion ~vas on the motion which is nmv number seven on today's Order Paper and the bon. J'inister of Justice had adjourned the debate. 1-IR , HICJO!AN: Hr. Speaker, this has to be the longest debate since the Long Parliament of many years ago on a resolution. I understand that I have but five minutes left a-ct I will not trespass upon the time of bon. gentlemen beyond that.

We, as I have said before, will most assuredly vote against this resolution because the resolution seeks to call upon the members of this Legislature to abdicate their responsibilities. I listened yesterday when there was a petition being presented with respect to the CN services that are being provided to this Province. There is an area in the development of this Province which we do not need a select corrnuittee to tell ns is of vital importanC:e to the economic welfare and development of Newfoundland and Labrador.

But when the petition was being, for what of a better word, debated, I listened very carefully to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and he indicated to me the disturbing philosophy that he has been expounding duri~g the debate on this resolution. He said, and I am paraphrasing his Hords, that the government have been talking about the lack of service of the CN1 that we are the government and what are we going to do about it, but there was not one suggestion, not a solitary su1mest:!on as to whether we should go up and picket the han.

Otto Lang's office, because he has the only say, the only jurisdiction, the only responsibility for transportation services in the Province as far as CN are conce11ned; ~-.hether we are going to pass resolutions and send them on the Parliament,or what else I do not know because no one suggested or would dare suggest that it falls within the responsibility of the Covernment of Newfoundland. 3129

"!'arch 17, 1_'17fi 'T'ane no. llflfi Pap;e 1 - mw ~r. 'lickman. llut, Hr. f;neaker, in closinp; Mav T rlraw to the attention of the hon. 'louse the kind of delavs that we have heen e~periencinr: in t'H' tri'!.nsnortation develo,ment,o:r the rlevelonment of a transportation nolicv for the Province of Newfoundland by our ferleral counternarts. Some vears ap;o, as the hon. p;entleman from lltirin - Placentia HeRt ('M:r. Canninp,) will recall,the then ~inister of Trans'Port, NeWfoundland's repre~entative in the novernment of Canada, the hon. Donald Jamieson, appointed a committee under the chairmanshiP of Mr.

Russell Lake of Fortune to report on the transPortation requirements of the South Coast of our Province. ~arts of that report were made nuhlic. A vital part of the report as to w'hether there should be a nort of call, a re~ular nort of call for the Argentia ferry service was not made public ana mv recollection is that our collea~>;ue, the hon. Hinister of Fisheries, ~"hen he was a member of Parliament, asl~ed t'ftat that reoort be tahled in the House of Commons, and he waR not successful in having it tabled.

Two vears ago the late T'ftomas Dalton was anpointerl to look at a oort of call for the Burin Peninsula fqr the East Coast ferry.. I was somewhat disannointed in the recommendation of that report in that I felt that economically and f~m the point of providinP: the necessarv shelter and navigational facilities, and to nrovide the shortest turn-around,that the port of St. Lawrence was the most logical nlace. Jlut be that as it may, there was a firm recommendation by the late Mr. Dalton that ~arvstown he chosen as a nort of call, a regular port of call, for the North Sydney - Argentia ferry.

That is over a year ap,o. He are no closer .todav to havin!l; a port of call' on the llurin Peninsula hv the ferrv than we were when the late commission was appointed ahout six years ago. S()'{F, HON. 'M'F.HR_KRS,Hear, hear! 3130

Harch 17, 1'176 '!'ape no. 1186 Mr. Hickman. I sav, Mr. Speaker, that the economic develooment of the Rurin Peninsula is heing very seriously imoeded, very seriously retarded because of the failure of the r.overnment of Canada to orovide adequate transoortation facilities, particularly by wav of an East Coast ferry and providinp. a regular port of call on the Rurin Peninsula. If we had that rep.ular nort of call, apart alto~ether, Mr.

Speaker, from the benefit to the tourists going to and from that part of our Province, we woulrl be able for the first time to ship fresh fish out of the Burin Peninsula into the very lucrative markets of the New England States. This today is barred because of distance and time to the fishermen, to the fish producers on that part of our coast. I believe, Mr.

Speaker, that instead of wasting our time with a select cDmmittee goinp. around ann doing the verv job for which we were elected, that we could do much better bv directing our attention to some very positive recommendations, and I can think of a no better recommendation that shou'd emanate from this House than that the C'..overnment of Canada ~~:et on with the .1ob, meet its commitment, establish the port facilities on the Burin Peninsula that are necessarv and 1nst watch that industrial area of our Province continue to grow. SOME HON. 'MF,MllERS: Hear, hear! MR.

HICKMAN: And watch the close "to full employment that we enjoy down there become absolutely full employment 1and watch the influx of Newfoundlanders who are attracted to that area by job security, jobs based on the development of our resources, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON • . MrnRERS: Hear, hear! MR. HI~: - and if you want any proof positive of the validitv of a nrogramme that is based on resource development,then 3131

Tane no. 1 U:l6 Pap.:e 3 - mw Mr. Hickman. I invite hon. f?:entlemen in this House to come with me to the Rurin Peninsula an~ there you will see stronp, industry base~ on onr own natural resources and an industry that provides job securitv. nut simnlv ~.mat we are savin~r, to the r~vernment of Canada, under this constitution that vou are so anxious to natriate, you have an absolute responsibility for the transportation service~ inter-nrovincial.

And in this case vou have ba~lv, scandalously, inexcusahlv, let down the Province of N~foundland and that is onlv one area insofar as tran9nortation services are concerned. I am sure, ~r. Speaker. tr.at my five minutes have lonp, since exnired. MR. ooonv: ---·-· No, no, carrv on, hv leave. }11!. HIGKMAN: ------ T am not seeldn?. leave of the House to carrv on, hut mav l say, ~r. Sneaker, that this resolution ~oes not commend itself to me. I trust it does not commen~ itself to hon. members onnosite. Fe have heard from, T 'think, the hon.

Leader of the new-line Liheral Party, the hon. member for Twillinp,ate (l1r. ~mallwood), that he and his cancu.c; have decic1ecl that thev cannot support that kind of resolution. Certainlv, whether they do or not his speech is not the kin~ of sneech that could he interpreted as being in support thereof. Rut he that as it mav, ~~hoever supports it, whoever feels· .that it is the kind of resolution that deserves the suoport of this House, I for one cannot see anv merit in it.

I cannot see ~~here that kind of resolution would clo anvthinp.; other than relieve hon. members of the resnonsihilitv that is imposed noon us following our election to this Le~islature. MR. ~~~r. Collins): The hon. member for Lewisporte. 3132

''arch 17, 1976 Tt~pe 1l!l7 IB-1 J1'. '·!lH'J'F: "r. fpeaker, I want to say a few worcls on · the reso1ut:f.on that has been moved by the han. the J,eader of the npposHion.

I think it is a r,oocl resolut:fon, Sir, and probably one of the more positive things that has been clone since this session of the House was convenerl. ~'r. f-peaker, to refresh the memor:l.es of some of thP members,T •'e basicaJ]y want a. select eoml'!ittee t'lppo5nteci to enqu:fre into and to report upon the prospects for Newfounc1Jancl and Labntilor, including the prospects for economic groPtt· li.ncl i'evelopl!'ent, and in r11r ... hcular a considerat1on of those types of i'evp1 oprnent ~Th.ich Clt"e hest su:f.ted to foster ;mel to encourage the "'ay of l:lfe !'lost clesir.ec' by the people of Newfoundland and Labrador .

Now, Ph:lle T·'e ta]l: 11hout ec:ono1:1:fc development, ~'r. Speaker, I think that ruraJ c!eveJ opment in rre~rfounclJ and falls into this category in some respects ,and T wouln J :f.ke to say a few worc'ls about that. I do not intend to talk very Jong. I want to say a +e,., things ahout sotre deveJopwents :In roy d:!str:lct and some of the prohJems t}tat the people are having Hith respeet to obta:l.ning government assistance in this rerarcl. I vouJ c1 like to say that I '!<'as disappointed by the ~·i.nister of Jm:tice stat:lnp. thitt they cl:ld not i.ntenci to support th:ls flll.T.ticulRr l"'Otion.

The !l':in:lster stood there for about forty­ five m:fnutes ;mel cr:ft:le1zec1 0tt<rwa,as hP is prone to do on occas:lon. T th1nk that some of them should prohably change their tune about thi.s part:!cular resC1lution. T feel H 'muld he a retrogrAcle step tC1 Jet this Inotion cHe on the Order Pafler, Rnd, worse sti JJ 1 tC1 have :f.t c1efeatec1.

There are hundreds, I snrgest:, l'r. ~peaker, hundrecls of !'len :f.n thfs Prov:lnce :md ~•oT"en too who h;we r;ood ideas ahC1ut developl"'ent ~<.•lw h<Tve never l1e.d n chnnce to put them forward 11nd th:l.s particular s<"lcct enml"':lttee that T·C£'. are tnJl ·ing about T,•ould give them the chance to Clo just that. '"' 1-!JlT'l:r:: I nr;ree Pith some hnn. members vrC1 hElve spoken :fn this c1el•ate thl't nr>.,·fonnc1J ,,ncl !t~s been sturliec' to cleath. He hRve. had alJ 3133

!'arch 17, 1 '176 Tape 1187 IB-2 ~., l.ffiiTE: kinds of sttu'ic!>, reports. ''el"0rial ~'n1vers:lty has i!Clne sr>ne ani! e"ch department of this government has clone a lot of reports . and stur1:1es on 'Tevfounrlam:J :>m' the potential for economic and rural revelopl"ent here. '1ut thP c'nta gatherec' from those various stucl:! es, "r, !':penker, I s0mrtil!'es "''"ndcr if they have ever been correlate<' and put together :In ,1 precise proposal :tn terns of ~·lu\t :Is best for the Prov:fnce.

There :-re stucl:les ki.cking around "e1T'oriaJ l'nivers1ty and kicking around the departments here anc1 k:l d inR arounc'l thP. c'epartments of 11ttaw~, ar>d I tldnk a select co1T!1'1:fttee coulr look at all those stnr11es nnd bring them together :>.nd hopefully co!"e up with sol'!e concrete prop0sa~s to present to ~overnment. ''eMher~ of the legislature, some members, clo not 1lPVe very much to c'o ,,,hen the leg:lslat1•re :Is not open, and J feel :It ;!i til'1e that we hacl thi" select cnmmittee 1md :c;ot on ,.dth the job of f1nr'l:lng nut ~·hat Clther peopJe think other than ourselves ahr>ut the clevel0p!'lent ..,f th:i s 1'rClvjnce. .~ ne~., stuc'y neec1s to be d!"'ne, ~i r, 1 suggest, a brand-neT ·' stu(ly, •·•ith more emphasis on 'vhat ,,.e ran r'o to best 11t1l1 ze thP nntural resources of the T'rovince. c·n I •mul d call up0n PN1. roembers to support this resolut:lon and to r-:lve it some second thoup.:ht.

J kno"• the '~in:lster of Just:lce Sl'i(' they cHd nClt intend to support j t, but I 1muld 1 ike for h:!rn to r,1ve H some serious thour;r,t and !'1aybe when the t:!.me comes,H 1t ever does :In th:fs sessjon,to r;ett:lng aroum1 to voting on :It, that >Ie can c1o ju!'>t that and pass :It anc1 have the com!'dttee esta.hlished. l'r. Speaker, I recently accepted an invttation to >'.ttencl a rural developMent meet:lnp :In Boy<!. 1 s Cove in my district.

The Lewisporte Area nevelopment Association he1d :Its annual meeting nnc1 T ~·rent -"long to Usten to compla:!.nts and hear their 'lur,r,est~.ons "~th re~pect to .1o]) creation. <;..,l'le of those complaints I ~·anted to mention here t!"'day, not merelv in a manner of compla:ln:lng hut also :In terns of sugrestions that cmtld be passed on tl"' m:ln:lsters of the r:ro"m anc! horPfnlly have sol'\eth:lng done Rhout the!ll. Pr. f'peaker, the col"plaints v.•ere astounding, and ho-;1 I wish 3134

"8 rc-h 17 , 19 76 Tape 111!7 TR-3 "" tmi'l'F. : every J"ember of t he flouse could have b~en there , and particul arly n ~P] ect co1"!71it tee been thPre to J :l.sten to some of thosP. reo ple ,,•hen they were rall-fnr ttbout t he bureau cracy ancl the red tape they run into ~ile n they try tl' r,et things clone, complaints about the clelay ln obt:~in1n~ sui tllb 1 <' t and fo r AgricuJ turaJ. clevelopmen t ancl ccmrl aints nene ra)l y A ~ ont thl!t kind Of 1-nreeucrac y .

"'"hr l"t"mm J nnns T\fvillion , ~ir , of the !"epa rtme nt of Forestr y :.ntl Arr icultu rP l"U!It be one of tl ' 5t nnde r st11ffed o r ineffi cient ~ec tions of t he civ il service.

I cou!cl, Sjr , but I ao not r.of ng to .nt th"s monent, noc\t!'len t cetse nfte r cas e of <'ebys in obtaining leAses and rrAnts, files &ettinp lost or repor tecl to be lost ~d , Si r, i n ~h i s pnrtfcular case I am not blamin~ the present ~inister of the dc>p?.rtl"en t. ne at least , :"ir , shows some si~s that he is concernecl about thjs situa t ion nnd some sfnnfficant clevelop~ents h:~vr been co~inr out of tha t pa rticular clepa r~ent lat ely. But the prC'ces!" iq !:til l too hureR\ 1Cratic and neecl!!, t ~eel,to he stea~line d hac11y indeed and I hope ~he minisrer does soMethi~r. about t his .

Th~ co~plai nt11 ~re co~1nf in 313'5

March 17, 1976 Tape No. 1188 NM- 1 ~W.. WHITE: from all over the Province and I am sure that most members ori this side have received them,as I have. The minister is receiving them all the time and I think it is something that we should raise publicly and what I am doing now, and I also take note of the fact that the minister has showed some concern for this particular matter and some intention of doing something about it. I also feel, ~·r.

Speaker, there has to he more and closer co-operation between the departments of government, especially the important factor of development in the Province and where development comes into play hen.reen the departments that have to do ~gith development in ~le~vfoundland. For one piece of agricultural land, Mr. Speaker, a person may have to go to a half a dozen departments- Environment; Rural Development, ~unicipal Affairs, Health, Forestry and Agriculture, and usually Transportation and Communic•tions as well. Each 1 I fear, ¥r.

Speal:er,- is doing its work totally independent of the other and in some cases maybe in total contradiction. Surely there can be greater co-operation and more efficiency when it comes to one department ~.torl~ing in conjunction with another. I am afraid, '~r. Speaker, that restruc·turinp.;, if this was caused by restructuring, had some capital serious ill effects and the gulfs that have been opened between the derartments of the government, departments that I have been dealing vTith, badly need to be closed.

T.et me tell you of one example of ~·That I mean by~in this case 1 the way in which departments work contrary to each other. The Lewisporte Areo. nevelopment Association,in conjunction with a couple of local . businessmen, have been planning a venture in that area for quite some time hut a little while ago they were forced to practically drop the matter altoget:ter. The potential land Wa.s found, capital for development "as readily available, a market existed, but red tape, ::;ir, I suggest •topped the project. It was a hlueherry undertaking tn the ~oyd's Cove area. Land was 3136'

March 17, lCI7fi Tape No. 1188 l'P.!- 2 ~. HJUTE: to be cleared, burned over, blueberries planted, they '<Tere then tn be harvested and canned in a local canning plant. The Ap,riculture nep~rtment approved the area. The gentleman in Centr~l Ne,~founland, Mr. W"od, told me himself the site was an excellent onP. ~grfculture passed it. Crown Lands in this particular case was no problem. Transportation and Communications did not have any major objections to it,but forestry and Agriculture stalled on the prnposa1 a-::>.fl. that is '·There it er · ~d there. They said that there was too much good timber on the site.

That is what they said, there <-laS too much good timber on the site and thev said it was an obstacle that couJd not be overcome at that particular time. ~lou :t!'parcntly no thought was given to cutti!lg down the timber and selling it to one of the paper mills in ~ewfoundland and providing additional enploynent in the area at that time and at the same time cle aring an area that blue~erry development could go ahead. Pnd talking about blueberry developlilent, it was suggested in yesterday's paper, ;:r. Speaker, tbat blueberries could be worth about $10 million - AN HON.

MEMBEr:.: Ten million pounds. l'R. '-TFIITJ<:: - ten million pounds, is it? - ten million pounds in the Province nnd yet because of this bureaucracy that I have been talking about a particular development in my district did not get off the grounde But '·'e are go11".f.'; to revive it again and the ~·inister of Forestry and AgricUlture can cxp~ct to see some people in that regard in the next little while. Perhaps, Sir, it is time we looked at a greater role for the Department of Rural Development in this Province.

Perhaps the Department should take on a broader role, or a more broadened role ~nd attempt to cut through some of the red tape that small businessmen Pith imagination and with some plans for particular projects :l.n outport area$ of the Province are finding it difficult to cut through. The Rural nevelopment Authority, Sir, has not ~.rorked to the extent that it was designed to and that it was anticipated it would work. There t~ere too many had loans made,and I am sure the minister would 3137

}!arch 17, 1"7f'i 'tape No . 118~ !~ . WRITE: pr~b~bly ar,ree with that, too many bad grants were given out and too tMny small loans, Sir . Soneti~es I feel it is just enou gh to get n man in to his neck. '1-f.any need working capital for particular projects and I t.;ould like to Ace more of thnt done and more selection on the basis of the best projects that could be developed ~y r.ural Develop ment . I hope, Sii, the minister takes a serious look at this ~ural nevelopment Department.

I wou~c! lL~e to see an overall plan of rural development, of rural development policy, not just based on the lines of the r.ural Development Authority but a more broadened policy with respect to '~ha t '~e are going to do in ou1: smaller communities with respect to their development. A stntement a fe1~ dnys ago by the !Unister of Industrial and Rural Development with respe ct to the satrnill indus try was a step 1n the right directi on, Sir . I applaud it. But I am sn:re the minister would be the first to admit it is nothing more than a band · aid approal'h. Uut at least the principle, t:r .

Speaker, has been established in this particulat 3138

~ {arch 17, 1976. MR. WHITE! Tape 1189 RH - 1 regard, the principle of government assistance to a resource industry during a period of the year when it is difficult for the people concerned to obtain capital. It has to be followed, I feel, in the agriculture department. Here is something that could provide thousands of additional jobs in this Province, agriculture, Mr. Speaker. A lot of people are interested in getting involved in it. There is a lot of agriculture potential and I think with some proper planning we could find a lot more people involved in agriculture in Newfoundland. But I feel, l-tr.

Speaker, the farmer must become bigger and the government must aid in the marketing of produce. Sir, I have had some random thoughts on agriculture in the Province. There are farmers in my district, Mr. Speaker, who still have their vegetables in storage from last Fall because they could no.t sell them then. There will be markets for them this coming Spring, Sir. They know that. But in the meantime where do they obtain additional capital and sufficient capital to prepare for the coming growing season? It has been suggested to me, Mr.

Speaker, that perhaps the entire area of marketing root crops in Newfoundland - by that I mean potatoes and turnip and those kinds of things - could be looked into by the government and maybe some kind of board established-along the lines of the wheat board in Western Canada - where all the vegetables are purchased,helrl in storage until the market conditions improve so that people who are farming could have a chance to get some money and buy some equipment and buy the kinds of things they need to get involved in the agriculture business the next year following. More market evaluation, Mr.

Speaker, should be done, in my opinion. I do not t hink it would be too difficult to determine in this ProVince how many sacks of potatoes we v10uld need or how many tons of turnip we would need or cabbage or whatever, some market evaluation by a team of people. Then we could give some direction to our farmers and let them know how many potatoes we need grown this year and how many turnip we need grown,and if we need more potatoes,well,they can be told that as well. We could do a 3139

Narch 17, ]97fi. HR. WHITE: Tape 1189 RH - 2 survey of the major wholesale and retail places in Newfoundland to find out exactly. The rotation of crops in this particular instance is very important. Crops need to be rotated from year to year in order to keep the soil fertile and that kind of thing. HR. ROUSSEAU: The problems with the environment concerning Newfoundland farmlands - ~ffi.

WHITE: Well probably somebody should start telling them because there are acres and acres of dry land in' this Province, acres and acres of dry land that is blowing about because of that. ~r. <:pea1·c>-r, a select committee, I feel, could look at market conditions in this Province and maybe put on paper the state of the agricultural industry in Newfoundland because it is in a bad state at the moment,and I am sure most farmers would agree, although some improvements are at least attempted to be made. Mr.

Speaker, much has been said in recent days with respec ·t; to . jobs and the obtainin~ of same in this Province. •fuat potential does the tourist industry have? Sir, I feel it has a great potential and it is not even partially tappen at the moment. But Sir, again I feel it is a case of doing a . half- ass 1 ob with something that could he beneficial to the Province in terms of new dollars coming in and it is a resource based industry, Mr. Speaker. HR. NEARY: On a point of order, }rr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ HR.

NEARY: I would lUe to draw to your attention, Sir, a phrase just used by the hon. gentleman that I believe, Sir, might be considered to be unparliamentary. The reason I draw it to Your Honour' a attention - I do not take offence to it but once we let these things get out of hand here, Your Honour, then it is likely to turn into a bar-room brawl, you know; a year from now. So I would like for Your Honour to give us a ruling on that. MR. WHITE: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The phrase I used is a typical Newfoundland colloquialism. It is commonly used, S;ir, and it describes, you know, it is not a full a~s.

It is just half an ass and the remark is intended to mean the animal. 3140

March 17, 1976 . Tape 1189 FJ{ - 3 ~m . SPE.AKER : Orner, please~ I do not have the reference directly in front of me now but Beauchesne speaks to some length on the use of a~l terms. One i s not allowed to use the word cur, dog, so on and so forth, donkey. }lost of these terms are not to be used when they are applied to hon. members or groups of hon. members. I do not recall Beauchesne s peaking i n this vein in rega r d to thoughts or activities . So at t his point in time I would not rule the bon. member out of order. 3141

March 17, 1976 Tape 1190 PK - 1 MR. WHITE: Thank ~ou, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I was talking about the tourist industry there a moment ago, and sometimes I wonder what we are doing to persuade Newfoundlanders to visit our Province. Lots of people are doing things I feel, Mr. Speaker, to keep people away from Newfoundland, and I think this is something that all members of the House should be concerned about. There have been things in the last few weeks, Mr.

Speaker, with respect to CBC television nationally and the seal hunt that I feel are giving Newfoundland the black eye, and I think it is time that we spoke out about them. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that CBC National documentaries and the seal hunt combined outweigh any good thing that we could hope to do in the realm of promotion in the next few months. It is sickening, Sir; in my opinion, sickening the way this Province has been shown on Mainland television,and never underestimate the power of television. Last Tuesday night, Mr. Speaker - MR. NEARY: Could we have a quorum call, Sir.

I know it is a bad day, but, Sir, there are enough members around to have a quorum in the House when a member is speaking, making such an important and eloquent speech. MR. SPEAKER (MR. GOUDIE): Will the Clerk count the House,please? Will the han. member from Lewisporte continue,please. MR. WHITE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, just before the member from LaPoi l e rose to call a quorum, I was speaking about a couple of things that I feel are damaging the tourist industry in Newfoundland, and something that we should talk about, and we should act about.

I do not know what we can do in this respect, but it is something that we should look into. I was referring, Sir, in one particular case to a national CBC television programme of last week, last Tuesday night, it was called Tbe Fifth _ Estate, and on that particular programme they took a twenty or a twenty-five minute

section to deal with Newfoundland. I do not know how many people saw it, but it dealt mainly with the unsavoury 3142

}!arch 17, 1976 Tape 1190 PK - 2 Mr. White: and bad aspects of Newfoundland. It was very unbalanced, Mr. Speaker. It showed the industry that is failing at the moment, in terms of Come By Chance,and the ~inerboard a:ill · in particular, and a host of other things that failed in this Province,including things from ten and fifteen and twenty years ago.

But it did not deal with the successful mining operation that we have to any great extent, nor did it deal with the pulp and paper industry that is very successful in Newfoundland, nor did it deal with the hydro development in Newfoundland, in Labrador, that has been fairly successful. And I feel, Mr. Speaker, it is time we said something about those things. If we feel that we are being treated unfairly by a national television network then we should say so, and I am saying so now, and I have seen a lot of documentaries in my time, I feel that this particular one was.

It was put together hy Peter Reilly,who incidentally is a former member of Parliament, but he did a bad job,in my opinion. He tried to balance Newfoundland and he did not balance it at all. He- just wanted to sensationalize and show the kinds of damaging things that goes on in Newfoundland. I ~eel that the programme literally crucified the Province, and I charge, Sir, that it was done in an unbalanced fashion. And God knows, Sir, if things are not bad enough with Come By Chance closing, but to have our nose rubbed in the dirt by Mainland journalists is more than we can stand for. The programme itself, 3143

"arch 17, 1'l76 Tape 1191 IB-1 just to refresh the rnel'lories 0f cert~in mel". bers,~Jas c.allec1 the M~jestic 'le'wfie Joke. Sir, one l:!.ne of the script in particular even wondered if (;an~dn couhl rea]Jy afforil Ne~'foundland and perhaps 1ve should not he part of Confederation ~t ~11. Sir, tPat hurt a great de~J.

I have hearrl other me!'lbers talk about :l t, and J ,,,0uld 1 :lke to hear !!lore tneMhers e.:xpress their op:lnic-.ns on th .~t pP.rt:! cn1 ar prop;ral"!"'e. '-ir, Phy c1~c' this rentle!Tlan not give "' clear picture, a haJnnced one, 0f our fa:llinr ;_ndw;;try anc1 th11t 1-rh:!ch is prospering as vel]? Tl1c P1fth Estate? ''l'. '·7HITE: T'f1e FHth -r:state last TueP.dry nfght, yes. They d:Jcl about 1'1 tHenty-five minute

section 0n f'o'"e 'P.y Ch~nce anc1 on the L1.nerboard ti:JJ J and 0n the T>ubber PJ 1mt anc' on '"alclmanis and everybody. ! .N PnN. l'F.J'BE"' Said it was a Newfoundland joke. ''n.

PHITE: Tt 1.ras just one programi!'e that - )•ou knovr,I ilo not col".plain ilhont propra111mes - but I think it was in very haC. taste ancl T think more people :oroulcl talk ahout it. '::he se11l fishery, 1'r. opeaker, here js something e1Ae that Hhile H is ;; feC!eraJ !'latter T think we should :-e talking ''110TP .<~bout it, ;tnd not just in the sense of, you J.·no\: , 1,·hether or not tl 'e seal lttmt should be prosecnteC! each Sprtng at all - thM:e are f:>ct·p. nnd f1~ures that He couln p;et i.nto -but the ~lilY 7lel'foundland is being portrayei! :ln terms of the SC<Il hunt.

Here is the biggest ren herrtng, Sir, tn a Jon!' t:l.l'\e that has heen thrown up. T,,!e are betnp: portrayecl ncross the nRtion ann throu~hout the uorlC! as the North American harharians and no one is making any attempt to tell our si~e of the story. ~?h<1t are the facts? "'oes the "inister of F:isher:les have them? 1 roubt it, Yr. Speaker, and sir>ply hecause it is a ferleraJ Witter and he 1vashes l'ts hanc1s of the whole Rffair. T agree •ri th the l'lenther for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) th:!t }'r.

Cashin, :rticharcl. rashin, has done a fair aMount :J.n recent clays to pub] ictze the economic aspects of the seal fishery ancl he cleserves soMe c.reclit for :l.t. But he is about the only 3144

"arch 17, 1976 Tape 1191 IB-2 l'l>. IIHTTE: one tht1t ,,,e have hearrl in the sense of ll'.aldng a drall'.atic attempt to publicize the seal fishery and the good side of the seal fishery. 1Te passed an unani!'IOU!' motion here :In the House, ~~r. Speaker, hut it did not get an)"'Yhere.

I d.id not hear it on the Nat tonal Wews, on CBC nationally, and I think that that :f_s the kind of th:lnp that we have to ~et into. ~y point is, ~ir, that we just are not fight:lng back anymore. no '"e want to save the seal fishery or put on so!'lewhat of a feeble fj r.ht and hope t'b.at H '"ill go away and that we will be 11bJe to forget the whole messy affn:l .r1 \·:ell, let us get the facts and make them knovn -dp.ht nc.ross the nation. You know, can the herd sustain 1 ts YE?i1rly yieJ d or yearly quota? Jf it can ,~rell let us make :f_t known.

Is :1 t )tH-'eed a good source of :Income for thousands of Ne,,,foundlander!'? Hell if it :Is, let us J0ok at :It from the factual standpoint. "aybe :1 t is ti!'le, Sir, lve neecl to look at national advertisinro as ~means of gettinr. our point across. There does not seem to be ;my other "'ay we can do it, :f_n my opinion,at the moment.

T.ast n:l rht on telev:l s:l.on, those who might have ,.,atched telev:lsi .on l0!'<t night, I just could not help hut feel only one sine of the story ,.,as beinr to] c1 l<'hen I sat there ancl "atched a baby seal cryinr on te1ev:fsion, crying right at the cal".era,and then a club coming rlov'll smasMnp. it l'nd blood p.oinp. everywhere.

Absolutely, totally disgusting and rir:lculous! \,'hat the camera failec' to do - you know, jf the p,uy 1->ehind the camera had si111ply panned up a little bit and shot the face 0f the guy who was kill:l.n!!: the seal and di.-1 an interview ~ ·ith l1:lm,T al'l nfrajd :It wouJcl have gone somethinp, like, you know, how !l'any k:fc's Cln you have, Sir. Fell I have ten or fifteen or T have ten or t\velve k:ids. !'ow much JTtoney i!o yon make? l~ell I make $(,,000 a year and half of it col!'es frail' the seal hunt. And you clo not l:!ke J·illinr bahy sen1s.

N0, Sir, T no not like killing baby se11ls but I have to co it to !'lake a clol]ar. Those are the kinds of th:lnp.s to get a bal11ncer' viev of the seal hunt. There is r,<dng to be such a national outcry ahout tl->is kjlling of baby seals that we are l!:Oing to be forced into something that we do 3145

"nrch 17, 1076 Tape lllll J'l\-3 not want to p.et into anrl that ls probahly ~oing a~1ay wjth the hunt alt<'r.eth er wl.ich I do not t~ant to sec unless i t is necessary, and it should be necessary only , or necessary or not necesR;~ry, only on the basis of facts , ~1hether or not the her~ ciUl be mnintaioec' witl: tl•e quo tas "'·e hnve today, t-~hether or not it is nn economic ;>~;s et to ~ ewfounr.lnnd nnd those ktnQs of facts are the only w;>yR we Rhould Le vie~odnr, ~hr seal hunt at the !l'ornent. 3146

March 17, lfl7f, Tap~ no. 11'12 Page 1 - rnw ~lr. l•lhite. Mr. Sneaker, on the economic side of the seal hunt, as I was just saying, I ~.;render if we are takinP, it far enough? Hhat ahout the thousands of tons of nerfectly good meat that is left there each year on the ice to go to the bottom of the sea? Some seal meat is canned hut not verv much.

I heard a suggestion the other dav from somehodv that prohahlv we shouln try to finn a cu1:e for seal meat, some l~ind of cure, mavhe salting seal meat. l?e have, vou know, meat that is high in nrot~in content, and a:~cit- of countries around the ~mrld neet that kind of food, and we shoulc'l. look more closely at it, I am afraid, anrl I would lU-e to see this government look into t'l-le possibility of finding out if any particular - cures for seal meat are available, +~here thev caul<'! he ohtaine<'l and whether or not market conditions exist.

T un<'lerstan<'l now that last vear we in Newfoun<'lland, those who canned seal meat,were not allowed to expert it, I understand now that that has he en changed, and ~.;re are allowed to exoert seal meat in c13-ns. Hell I would like to see it develop ~ven further and nrobably some :f'orm of cure found for s~al meat, and I suggest we could probably make millions more from that particular venture. Perhans we could even market seal meat unrler a new name, ~~r. Sneaker. He have done it before. I think it was turhot that was marketed under ~reenland halihut awh:l.le hack.

Then it ~.;ras chang~d again to ~reenlanc1 turbot, I think. Maybe we can do the same thing with seal meat, ]lrohablv change the name. I no not know what ~.re could call it, hut we eould call it something or other. The hart nublicitv ~o1ith the seal hunt mav have some effect on people who ~~ould want to huv it to eat it. "!avbe if we changed the name or looked at that it would be a good idea in terms of, you know, selling seal meat outsic'le of N~wfoundland.

On a side :l.ssue, Sir, when I attended the annual meeting of the T,E!Wis]lnrte Area Rural Developlllf>nt Association the other night, to which the minister was invited hut could not attend at that particular time, thev served a delicacy after the meeting was over. It was domestic rabbit. There is a nerson in mv district who is developing domestic rabbits. 3147

'l'ane no. 1192 "P~~~;e 2 - mw ~lr. T-lhi te. He has rearecl-I guess vou could call it- thousands of them,or nrettv close to thousands of them now. 'l'hev are going to can them this vear, an~ thev are trvinp. to get market for them, and the rahhit was cp'tite good, and it is domestic rahbit. I do not know if vou have ever trie~ it or not, hut r.raham Linfield down in r.amphellton - he has got several h undre~ there now, and LeH F.vely is goinp, to can them this year and hopefullv thev will find a ma~ket for them. HR.

J=.~nB_T~A"l'' Is he the nres:f.ttent of the association? ~. '~JJ!,:____ liTo, he is a memher of the asMciation, and not nresirlent. ~. urnmnr:A• 1-lm~ are thev "'.illerl? ~~~ l?HI'T'E :_ I do not know 'J.ow they are ld.J.le~. I ••onld not want to snecuJ ate on how the'' are kille~, hut I have no idea, ~r. Sneal<e.r. I found >:hat there are a number of thinp;s :f n !'IV district in nart1.cular that neonle are thinkin1=1. ahout ~etting into.

T mentioned earlier the kind of hureaucracv thev rJn into, and I would like t(l see the RuraJ Tlevelopment llepartment co-ordinate more anr1 more tl,e various rlenartrnents so ·that some of the red t,.oe is cut through in getting to the source of the nro't>lem ••ith respe .ct to hm.r a oerson can l"roceen •·rith his deve.lopment ••ithout havinp, to ~.rait for a renort from ~orestrv and Agr!cultur~.and a report from Transnortation, and a report from Health, ann a renort !!rom evervbodv. Then it is six, or seven months or ei~ht· or nine months or a vear has gone by. - I had a meeting this morninl!, ~r.

Sneaker, ••ith the Minister of 'll.ural Development anrl the "!inister of forestrv ann Agriculture, and I saw an indication that that •.raR heinp done there so it is a P.;ood thing all arounn. Mr. SPeaker, that is ahout the few comments that I wanted to make on this narticular motion. I think that we should a~point a select committee of this House to study develonment nossfhilities in Ne•~foundlanc1. Sir, I would like to see a stunv of the smaller kinds oF indus tries we •.rould ~tet :! nto. There are lots oF people out around 3148

Tape no. 119 2 Page l3 - 1IIW t-fr. tVhi te the outport areas Who have little ideas they have always had in the back of their minds. They have never tried it on anybody for size. Thev would like to try it on for size to someboify, and I think thev would welcome a select committee of this House to go and sit doWn with them, to ask them questions about their proposals and to come back and report to the Rouse probably 1rl.th some unique ventures on how to develon this 'Province. Thank vou. SOME RON. MEMilERS: Rear, hear: MR. _,'t_'PEAA:ER (>.fr. Goudie): The hon. member for St. John's East. '-m.. 'MA'RSR.ALL: '1-fr.

Sl)eaker, the nature of this resolution is a very, very important resolution. It says that, in effect, there should be a consideration of those types of development which are best suited to foster and to encouraRe the way of life most desired by the people of N~~foundland. It certainly is a very important resolution, a resolution 1~1. th respeet to the t:y'J)'e of industrial development and economic growth ~~hich this PTovince 3149

Marc~ 17, 1q76, Tape 1193, Page 1 -- apb MR. MARSHALL : should seek. And aside from the oppressin~ financial situation in which this Province presently finds itself, I would think that this is the one,in my book anyway, that would have the next priority. "owever, Mr. Speaker, I do not feel that a sel.ect committee of this House is really going to contribute to that inquiry to any particular degree.

This particular type of resolution and this particular type of inquiry is really something that should take the attention, not of a select committee, but really of this whole House' in full and complete debate and inquiry. We do not need an inquiry, I might state, we do not need an inquiry to find out the way in which the members of the Opposition would wish to develop this Province, the way in which they would attempt to have economic development. Because they had an appreciable period of time, Mr. Speaker,in government and we saw exactly foursquare how they would develop this Province.

They adopt, as we know, the adage of develop or perish. They adopted the philosophy of jobs regardless of job security, regardless of the overall cost, the net cost to the people of this Proyince. After all, they are the party of the oil refineries, they are the party of the electric r~duction plants and they are the party of the Melville pulp and paper, So, Mr.

Speaker, there is a need of inquiry for the proper type of industrial development of this Province,but there is no need of an inquiry to determine what type of economic or industrial development would be pursued by the Leader of the Opposition in the event that he formed the government - that is the Liberal Government - because we know what type of development that they would hav~. I do not know why this resolution was really brought in.

I do not know whether it was to pretend to the people of this Province that they are adopting a different type of philosophy, that they want to adopt a different type of philosophy. I do not know whether the resolution is really an apology to the people of Newfoundland for the philosophy that ~as followed,but certainly it should have been 3150

March 17, 1976, Tape 1193, Page 2 -- apb l«. MARSHALL : accompanied with that, Or maybe it is an attempt by the Opposition to paint themselves as the vehicle of change, to latch on to a more convenient type of approach to industrial development, convenient for the present time, in the hope that the public awareness will forget what they have done in the past~ and that they will cloak themselves with the position of being the party that is justified to regain power in order to change the things that they set in motion.

Now it is almost incredib~ ~ that such a resolution can be seriously, really, brought in by the Leader of the Opposition when you consider what went on in the past. And we have to consider what went on in the past, You have to ask yourself, can a party which pursued such a definite economic development policy for so long while in power and which, Mr.

Speaker, to a great extent is directly responsible for the financial vice now squeezing the life­ blood out of this Province, whether that party can now convince the public of this Province that a different approach ought to be taken and cast the blame upon others for their failures and present themselves as hope for the future? Now can that happen? Can that possibly happen, Mr. Speaker? Incredibly, I have to sav in Newfoundland it is possible.

I am absolutely amazed how in this Province people can put forth a position and practice a position as the Liberal Party did in the past, and with impunity afterwards take a diametrically different position within months, weeks, days or even hours and still be accepted with credibility. 3151

'"arch 17, 1976 Tape 119/r rn-1 1-'R. NEARY: l!hat about Shaheen? HR. HARSfi.ALL : We will get to f;haheen in CJ moment :if the hon. rentJeman w:lll possess h:lmse1f of patience .. He will hear 11hout l'r. Shaheen anc1 a few other l'lat ters. But, as I say, '"r. f-peaker, it is utterly amazing th<Jt this part1 cu] ar approach can be tal: en. 'But in th:l .s Province it c11n be, Because it can be and it has been.

And -programmes that had been carricc1 on by this government,v•h:lch had to be carried on b"c-ause of the large cotT1I11itments of monev,11re no•,r being turnerl arouncl 01s our progral'l~es when really what the covernment has been doing is trying to save anrl solve the Province. T say that this government is going to be buried ten feet cleep unless certa:ln members :In the r,overnment itself - anrl I me;m 1n the c':irect government Hself - are np on their feet from t:l.me to time ;:mrl expla:l.ninr. and defending their pos:ltion rather tlmn appearinp. to sit c'!oHn ;md just mutely take what is br:ing c11st.

Jt :Is as if, "r. Speaker, in this Province there 1.s no record that ex:l.sts either in the memory of the puhlic or in the great press Fhich Pe have in this Prov1.nce. Now 1 am not goinr; to t.?lk 11bout the preRs 1-ecause once before J t<llkecl ahont the presR at a c1o J •ras attenrl:lng and everythin~ gets rjRtorten. J speak my m-m personal vier,r when I speak this, "r. Speaker, that the former leader o-f' the T,iberll.] Party, the member for Tw:ll] incate (Yr. Smalhroor1) ye!"terclay Rpoke ahout in th:l .s Province there t-ras a bankruptcy i.n pol :Jtj cs, pol:!tical hankruptcy.

T.Jith th11t I think most of us can con<:ur. That is nothing new. It is my op:ln1on, anc1 as I say I knoH ~'" 1 sUite this opinion that everyth:lng else I say aften!arc:ls,H ,1.nythin~ :Is reporterl r~Hl be underne11th r,ffiat 1 am no~1 goinr: to say, T. also hilppen .to think, "r. ~peaker, that there is a bankruptcy in. this Province v::lth respect to the press because peopJe are allowecl to take c'iametr:l.c, c1i fferent pos:l t~ ens, ahsolutely oppose(! to ~rhat they took before .?nd still,increc:lihly,have these posltjons acrepterl T•7:fth crecibiJitv.

It :Is 11s jf. the press - and the press report them, the nresR report these posH:Ions without comment. They change from r1ay to 3152

"arch 17, 1976 '~. ~IAPSHALL: Tape 1194 clay and back :mrl forth sn that now the I.earler of the Opposition is IB-2 almost paintecl :J.S the person now who is advocating a d:lfferent type of jnnustrial develop~ent in this Province. MR. NEARY: And they are not for that 100 per cent. ~'1>. ~'A!'SHALL: I could give one specif:fc example of this, just one specific, very patent exampJe. Two Saturdays ago there appeared :fn the Evening Telegram - ancl then I say I knm-1 that all this

part lv1U . probably he the only thing that w:!lJ be reported is what I say1 if :mytl1fng, in the Uouse. ''r . Nl'.A l'?Y : What7 Do you make the statement outside the House? "'l'. }~APSHALL: I will make l'lY statements any"'bere I want to,and J lvill. make them in the !louse and I have made them outside the House :md I will again. MR. NEARY: Do not be cowardly now. They are not here to defend themselves. ~'11. :!'ARSHALL: This is ldth respect to'Gull Island. 'ro keep the po~rer in tbe banns of the members he saicl it was goinr. to be an open ticket to borrow as much as they needed.

This is the business ~71th the borro•dng of Hydro Ouebec, not in this Ressi.on but in the previous session • • t-.N JT(1N. }'E"JlF.r>: Who said that? This is Mr. Wick Collins in h:fs comment two Sl!turdays ~go in the Evening Telegram. lle said it lvas going to be an oren t:lcket to horrm,, as much as they neened, "maybe billions of d0Jl:<~.rs Hihtout hav:fnr, to come back"to the House of Assembly to get approval f0r each separate amount borrm,·ec1.

Fortunately the Opposition sm,• t:he <'anger of putting that much authority in the hands of the few peopJ e outside of the J'ouse of Assernhly and fought the govermnent harrl enough to get the hill changed;' Vell, r·•r. Speaker, it is a f,r.t - nne one can refer to tl1e. same documents i.n the Eveninp; 'rele~:ram or in The T),ily Nel·cs or in any per:fonicaJ we have - f:lrstly, that the n:e~hers opposite are the people ,;ho enac:tecl. :In 1966 that in vi <I:! nus <'!nencll'lent to the Revc>nne ann ,\udit Act which put secrE't hn.,..Tfl•dng power in the hands of Cabinet.

The l;on. me'!lbers here opposi .te when they sat here tvere r,reeted 3153

varch 17, 1976 Tape 119lt rB-3 .J'l'. l'Ar>S!1ALL: .,.'ith

an act ,,,h:tch I ~raftec myself :in Oppos1 t:lon to cut this out 1 and voted against it . But it is also even more ~:irect •·tth resp~ct to the statements ma~e in that particular

article by •·r. rollin~ in the Telegram th11t the govenn,ent ~·as not restra1re<', H' we ,;'>p ]l put it, by tce!!!hers opposite. ':'!ley sa~· nothinr wrong with it bcrau~e after all thi!' is really \~hat thev have pract:icet;l. But th~>rc happened to be three memhers on this si~e of the Rous e ~Jho ••ere painted at the time as h Pin~ the Tory trio . They are not the Tory tri o any more. They mir,h t be the Tor y cluo or they m:lght be Tory anything. But the point of the ~atter is it i s completely erroneous reporting . The members of the 3154

March 17, 1976 Tape 1195 PK - 1 Mr. Marshall: Opposition on the other side were prepared to vote for this, and saw absolutely nothing wrong with it. And that is what I mean AN RON. MEMBER: Not so! Not so! MR. MARSHALL: by peo