LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL V OF MANITOBA Wednesday, 29 April, 1981 Time - 2:00 p.m. MR. CLERK, Jack Reeves: lt is my duty to inform the Hous e of the un avoidable ab senc e of Mr . Speaker and ask the Deputy Speaker to take the Chair. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Deputy Speaker. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, Mr. Abe Kovnats (Radisson): Presenting Petitions ... Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR: Mr .

Speaker, the Commi ttee of Sup ply ha s adop ted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Dauph in, tha t the Re port of the Commi ttee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I wish to table the Annual Report of The Public Schools Finance Board for the year ending December 31, 1980. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR.

ROBERT ANDERSON (Springfield) introduced Bill No. 25, The Registered Respiratory Technologists Act. MR. J.R. (Bud) BOYCE (Winnipeg Centre) on behalf of the Member for lnkster introduced Bill No. 54,

An Act to repeal The Elections Finances Act. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Deputy Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Economic Development. Can the Mini ster confirm that the company of Waiter Woods is phasing out its office and warehouse in the City of Winnipeg involving some 70 employees, transferring its operations to the Province of Alberta? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): No I can't, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I will check into the matter. MR.

PAWLEY: Mr. Deputy Speaker, then I ask the Acting Mini ster of Labour whether the Acting Mi nister of Labour can advis e whethe r or not appropriate notices ha ve been received in the Department of Labour pertaining to the intended closure of Waiter Woods in respect to employment layoff. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture and Historical Events. HON. NORMA L. PRICE (Assiniboia): Mr. Deputy Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Labour, I'll take the question as notice and get back to you. MR. PAWLEY: With permission of the members, back to the Minister of Economic Devel opment.

In checking out this report which the Minister indicates he is not aware of, can the Minister pursue various means and steps by which the 70 emplo yees I unde rstand will have their jobs phased out, that indeed these circumstances can be reversed rather than the closure out of an important operation such as Waiter Woods from the Province of Manitoba in main form? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I will check it out but if the Leader of the Opposition has a report available I'm telling him that it's his job to get it to me so I can do something about it.

Instead of standing up trying to pour the doom and gloom as he does every day, why doesn't he have the responsibility to give me the report? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I'm somewhat interested in the sensitiv ity of the Mini ster of Economic Development.

If indeed information such as this is reported to the members of the Opposition I would have thought that the Minister of Economic Development with his staff and with his operations at his dis posal would be amongs t the first in the Province of Manitoba to receive information of this nature and not the last which appears may very well be on the par t of the Min ister of Economic Development, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Further to the Minister of Economic Development, I wonder if he can provide us any further information then being responsible for the steward ship of Economic Development in the Province of Manitoba and the indication last year that Kane Limited would be closing this year, can the Minister assure us that indeed some steps have been undertaken in regard to this by his department to ascertain whether or not there are steps that can be undertaken by Kane in co-operation with his department to prevent this closure which will affect, if it proceeds, some 40 emplo yees in the Province of Manitoba by this summer? 3149

Wednesday, 29 April, 1981 MR. JOHNSTON: We have been in touch with Kane Equipm ent. We do have information within the department regarding that company, Mr. Speaker. I don't intend to put the company's records on public view, Mr. Speaker. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Deputy Speaker, we're not asking for the Minister to put anything on public view; we would hope that the Minister would be doing something within his department to earn that which he is receiving as a Minister of Economic Development.

Can the Minister advise th en th at indeed his department is working with the company to avoid this layoff which was intended to take place this year on the part of Kane? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, as I've said, we have been touch and worked with Kane Equipment but I am not able to report whether the company will be staying open or not. lt is hopeful that they will but I rather think the Leader of the Opposition is hopeful that they won't. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: If I could just ask the indu lgence of the honourable members just for a moment, I would like to point out in the gallery where we have 40 students; 20 from Quebec and 20 from the Precious Blood School in Winnipeg under the di rection of Mr. Dureault and Mr . Prateau from Qu ebec. I believe it's an exchange visit to the Precious Blood School in St. Boniface. This school is lo cated in the constitue ncy of the Hono urable Member for St. Boniface, Mr. Desjardins. We welcome you here this afternoon. The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MONSIEUR R. LAURENT L.

DESJARDINS: Monsieur le President, votre interet dans la belle langue fram;:aise et aussi le caractere bilingue de cette Chambre, il me semble que vous devriez profiter de cette occasion lorsque vous occupez cette chaise pour au moins parler de l'ecole du Precieux-Sang et non du Precious Blood. J'e spere qu e vous pourrez faire cette correction et nous donner quelques mots en franc;:ais comme si vous etiez interesse. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, on a ma tter of privilege.

The Minister of Economic Development just a few moments ago suggested that the Leader of the Opposition was hoping that Kane Equipment would close its operations. Mr. Speaker, this is an attempt by the Minister of Economic Devel opment not to insult solely, but an attempt to im pute mot ives behind the questions being posed by myself as Leader of the Opposition. If that indeed was the case, which is totally false, the opposition would not be persistently day after day, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, attempting to obtain from the Minister of Economic Development some effort, some gumption on his part to prevent the continuing foreclosures and transfers of operations from the Province of Ma nitoba, if indeed that was the case, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition and all mem bers on this side would be remaining mute in their place. So, Mr.

Speaker, on a matter of privilege which I feel is quite warranted in view of the attempt, the careful designed attempt on the part of the Minister of Economic Development that is finding himself in an increasingly indefensible position, to attempt to impute motives to mem bers on this side that are asking que stions attempting to obtain from the Minister of Economic Dev elopment some constructive effort on his part as steward responsible for Economic Development in this province in order to prevent what is occurring in Manitoba pertaining to economic development of a negative nature. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, on the same point. The honourable member stood up today, presented me with something that had never been presented to me before - I don't know whether it's ever been in the paper - but before he comes forward and has some discussion about the company or asks us to do any investigation at all he puts it in the public arena which puts probably the company in a bad position at this particular time and he doesn't seem to care when he does that.

Now the Leader of the Opposition keeps talking about what this side of the House is doing as far as economic development is concerned and I've never heard anything more constructive from him except an interest program tha t is in the Province of Saskatchewan which would not work in this province. Let them stand up and tell us what their policy is other than ownership. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, further to the comments by the Minister of Economic Development. But first in regard to matters of public record .. . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order pl ease. The Honourable Government House Leader on a point of order. HON.

GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition indicated he had a matter of privilege to speak to. He spoke to it; he did not conclude with a motion. I therefore suggest that you .. rule that there is no point of privilege and we return � to the question period. MR. PAWLEY: I'm rising on a new ma tter of privilege becaus e the Mi nister of Economic Development indicated that I was rising in respect MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order pl ease. The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

The Honourable Leader of the Opposition indicates that he now has another matter of privilege. I think it is properly in order to rule upon the first matter of privilege. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: To the honour able members, I would hope that because it's not that often that I'm sitting in the Chair that the honourable mem bers are not taking advantage of the Deputy Speaker. I would ack nowledge the Hono urable House Leader of the Opposition. 3150

Wednesday, 29 April, 1981 MR. PETER FOX (Kildonan): Thank you , Mr . Speaker. Just to assist you let me indicate that a matter of privilege arose over the fact that a Minister imputed motives to a mem ber of this House is unparl iamentary and the question was raised as a matter of privelege by my leader. I think that should be ruled upon. In respect to further procedures, if every time the Minister gets up, whether he's on a point of order or replying to the matter of privilege, if he also at that time creates another matter of privilege then that too has to be dealt with.

But I think we should deal with one at a time and the first one is the matter of privilege in respect to imputive motives to a member of this Assembly which is unparliamentary and I think the Honourable Minister should withd raw. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Maybe we should start ag ain. The Hono urable House Leader of the Opposition. MR. FOX: Mr.

Speaker, that's why I gave you a chronological order of what occurred and what I would hope we would proceed with; that's why I've always maintained that a point of order take s precedence over a matter of privilege because we must have correct procedures before we know what we're doing. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I'm inclined to agree. On the first point of privilege I'm going to require some assistance in making a decision on it. To the honour able mem bers, on a point of privilege it should be brought to an end with a su bstantive motion. As there was no substantive motion I would have to rule it out of order.

The Honourable Member for St. Boniface MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I wish to speak on a point of order. The Minister apparently is not in a very good mood; I und erstand he didn't have a very good night's sleep last night but that's not my concern right now. I still don't think that he should insult me. Mr. Speaker, the Minister made a clear statement that we on this side were pleased to see people closing up. A MEMBER: That's right. MR. DESJARDINS: Here we heard again "that's right".

We heard it from that side and if you want to start over I think the Minister, now that he's reflected on that, should realize we can't go on in this House like that and should withdr aw that sta tement. Furthermor e, we are told repea tedly that th e question period is to try to get information. My leader asked to try to have a certain thing confirmed; the Minister took exception to that and felt that if he had any information he should bring it to him. That is not somet hing, Mr. Speaker, that we should be chastised for.

They have the staff, the Minis ter has certain responsibil ities and it is certainly a political question, a political subject and this is somethin g that is completely in order for any mem bers of the House to ask if this is right or not. You don't wait till it's too late. Now th e Mini ster didn't have to answer it, doesn't have to answer it. He said quite rightly that he wants to check it but he wasn't so right.

Well, 3151 then when he offered his observation that we on this side would want only that then I as a member sitting on this side resent that very much because I don't like to see that at all and I don't suggest any mem bers of this House would like to see that. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: To the honourable member on his point of order, a difference of opinion does not constitute a point of order. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, it's not a difference of opinion.

I've asked you to rule, to ask the Min ister, I tho ught that he would get on it himself, to ask him to withdraw that statement he's made; that is not a difference of opinion and I respectfully sugge st that you have no alternative right now but to ask the Minister to withdraw that statement that you know and everybody knows . . . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please, order please. On a point of order, there is only one way to counteract a ruling made by the Chair.

I ruled it as a difference of opinion and ruled the point of order out of order and if you disagree with what the ruling has been, you've got to come up with a motion in disagreement as far as the ruling of the Chair. The Honourable Member for St. Bon iface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, are you saying that it is correct now, that we can make accusation from across the floor to impute motives on mem bers of this House; and if that is your decision then I'm very sorry to appeal your ruling. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. I did not make that decision.

I ruled on the point of order and the point of order was that it was out of order. I did not make any ruling other than that. Don't put words in my mouth. The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: How can I ask you then if I have no point of order, how can I ask you and ask the Minister to withd raw that statement which is not in order? If you tell me a way around that I'll do it. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister on a point of order. MR. JOHNSTON: On the point of order, I'm well aware of the rules of this House and if my remarks were interpreted as im putive motives I withdraw them. MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Bon iface. MR. DESJARDINS: ... the Minister but I can't help but ask you how you recognize him on the same point of order when you told me I had no point of order. But the correct ion ha s been made, I'm pleased and I'll desist. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE: Thank you , Mr. Deputy Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister that answers to the House for the Manitoba Telephone

Wednesday, 29 April, 1981 System. I wonder if he can inform the House, I un derstand th ere is a new multimill ion dol lar telephone building being constructed at Selkirk, construction about to begin very shortly, I wonder if he can inform the House what that means to that communi ty in the way of employment and could he inform the House if he has received a letter of congratulations from the Leader of the Opposition for bringing that establishment to his town? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for Manitoba Telephones. MR. DON ORCHARD (Pembina): Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Yes, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I can confirm that we are very shortly to und ertake construct ion, not us as govern ment but private cont ractor, unde rtake construct ion of an office building in the Selkirk commun ity. lt is part of this government's ongoing decentralization program in the Ma nitoba Telephone System started by my predecessor, the now Minister for Natural Resources.

I understand that the building is to be valued at approxima tely $1. 5 million and involv es in the decentralization the move of some 27 staff positions out to Selkirk and we believe that this will have a fairly significant impact upon the communi ty in terms of employment possibilities within the community and is part of, as I indicated earlier, our ongoing process of decentralization of Manitoba Telephone Systems. I will answer the second question posed by the Member for Minnedosa. No, I am not aware of a letter of congra tula tions from the Leader of the Opposition.

I'm not certain he knows that is going on in his constituency. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, further to the que stion by the Memb er for Mi nnedosa to the Minister responsible for the Telephone System, can the Minister responsible for the Telephone System acknowledge that indeed last fall, while expressing regret over the fact that the government has seen fit to centraliz e a numb er of activities that formerly existed in th e Town of Selkirk, th at indeed the Mani toba Telephone System deserved to be commended for decentralizing operations in thr ee centres in Manitoba - not just Selkirk - but I believe as well if the Minister wanted to further expand on his answer, two other centres as well.

Would the Mini ster acknowledge that there was commending of the efforts by the Telephone System last fall in this regard? MR. ORCHARD: Well, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, not that I qui te fol lowed the Honourable Leader of the Opposition's question, but it is standing policy of this government to undertake decentralization of the Manitoba Telephone services operati ons wh ere practical, possible, and economical. lt is in th at direction of decentralization that the communi ty of Selkirk has been favoured with one of the major moves in the decentralization process and I think mem bers of the community of Selkirk, the mayor, the mem bers of city council and the busi ness community in Selkir k are pl eased that thi s government is unde rtaking that kind of a decentralization move. 3152 MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Mr . Speaker, my question is to the Minister reporting for the Manitoba Telephone System. I would like to ask the Minister if he could advise the House as to the policy of the System as regards the public availability of system board minutes. MR. ORCHARD: If I understand the question, what is the disposition of system board minutes? The policy? I would have to take that question under notice, Mr. Speaker, and provide the member. MR. WALDING: Just a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to ask the same Minister, what is the government's policy on the public availability of system board minutes? MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I indicated that would provide the member with those answers. MR. WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, a supple ment ary ques tion. At the same time the Minister is attempting to identify the government's policy in this matter, would he also make himself aware of The Corporations Act, which requires that all corporations' minut es and records should be available to the public and that this Corporations Act was passed in 19 76.

I also bring that to the attention of the Honourable Minister without Portfolio. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS. JUNE WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is add ressed to the Honourable Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sport. I wonder when we can expect an announcement relative to the proposed field house that was promised in the 19 77 election campaign. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sport. HON. ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendrye): Well, Mr.

Speaker, without taking the last part of the statement as being a fact, I would like to say that we have had this last month, meetings with the mayor and some of the councillors in the City of Winnipeg. We have also had discussions with the Manitoba Sports Federation and several other organizations trying to find out exactly the needs and requirements of those different organizations.

I am hopeful that in the very near future we will be able to sit down with the City of Winnipeg again and present certain definite plans with regard to the involvement of the Provincial Government in one form or another, in the establishment of a field house facility in Metropolitan Winnipeg. MS. WESTBURY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I accept the fact that this Minister is dedic ated to a field house - I'm not sure about the rest of his Cabi net - but I'm not questioning his commitment there. Is it not so, Mr.

Spe aker, that all of the sporting organizations, the MTFA and the Manitoba Sports Federation and so on, made their presentations to

Wednesday, 29 April, 1981 the task force, who I think presented their report in October, 19 80. Wh y are they starting new discussions with the sporting organizations when they've already been heard from through the task force? MR. BANMAN: Well, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the terms of reference given to the task force, there were three different areas there they were to explore; one was a joint-use facility between the University of Winnipeg and the public at large, namely, the City of Winnipeg through their Parks and Recreation Department. it was supposed to be established in the downtown core area and it was supposed to meet some other requirements. it has now become obvious that the joint-use concept is one which is not acceptable by a numb er of the groups and, as a result, we have to undertake some other negotiations.

The member will appreciate that the Province of Manitoba does not build any facilities and does not operate any recreational facilities in the Province of Manitoba and, th erefore, the operations and the construction of a facility like that would necessitate the concurrence and the cooperation, as well as the input, from a mun icipal level, i.e. the City of Winnipeg and that's one of the areas we're working with right now. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge with a final supplementary. MS. WESTBURY: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, would the Minister advise us whether the East Yards site is being considered for the field house, please? MR. BANMAN: Mr. Deputy Speaker, that was one of the sites that was identi fied by the Task Force Report. it is a fairly good site, I would suggest it is one of the sites, as I mentioned, th at is in consider ation but the final determ inations with regard to that have not been determined at this time. MR. WALDING: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. In referring to The Corporations Act in a question just now I might have referred to the public having access to minutes.

What I had meant to say was tha t the Act refers to shareholde rs of the corporation. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon Est. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

I'd like to ask a question of the Minister of Finance, and ask the Mi nist er whether he can confirm that the rate of economic growth in the province last year, tha t is 19 80, has been now calculated to be minus 2.3 percent by the latest estimates provided by the Conference Board in Canada; and that his statement in the last Budget Add ress on Page 9 of the Ma nitoba Economic Review Secti on, wherein he says: "Prel imi nary indications are that real growth actually declined by about thr ee-quar ters of one percentage point, including the effects of droug ht-related losses", that this prelimi nary ind ication that he referred to und erstates the act ua l ec onomic decline th at occurred last year in the province?

MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Deputy Speaker, the difference is due to one figure cited by the mem ber as the Conference Board information and the other is information provided by the department. The figure of minus three-quarters percent is one that the department has calcu lated some months ago and continue s to bel ieve is rea sonably accura te. The Co nference Board information, as he knows, has just recently been updated. MR.

EVANS: I belie ve the Minister will acknowledge tha t the Conference Board information is made available to the government of Manitoba; as Mini ster of Indu stry and Commerce I recall us becoming a member of this organization to get data. So I ask the Minister, Mr. Deputy Speaker, whether he can verify that since 1977, again using the Conference Board of Canada estimates, that the level of economic growth has declined since 19 77 in total, 1977 to 19 80, and th at we un fortu nately are the only province in Canada to have declined since 1977? MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, some of the information that was outlined in the Budget Add ress, of course, showed the background to the situation that prevails today in Manitoba and has prevailed for some years; how growth levels were high during the late 1960s and early 1970s when they were running 5 and 6 percent and they have declined to the point where, dur ing the la st year of the ND P admi nistration, they had gone from those high levels of 5 and 6 percent down to where it was about 0.8 percent, I belie ve, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Since that time growth has continued to be more or less in that range, very little, if any, real growth during that period of time. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East with a final supplementary. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Will the Honourable Minister confirm that the rate of growth that has shown a decline since 1977, since this government has been in office, has not only been in agricultur e which the Minister referred to in his Budget Addr ess, but has also occurred in the mining industry - I'm talking about real output - also in the construction industry, the wholesale and retail trade and also in the publi c admin istration sector? MR. RANSOM: Well of course, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, in the area of public admin istration we acknowledge that, having been able to bring the growth of the Civil Service un der control during our period of admin istration, and seeing reductions that probably still stand in the range of 1, 300 to 1, 500 people during that period of time, as opposed to an increase of several thousand during the admin istration of the previous government. With respect to the mining situation, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, it's perhaps not well known that the mining ind ustry in this province had suf fered a severe setback; the culmi nation of the setback and of the policies of the previous admin istration had resulted in an announc ement some few hours before we assumed responsibility for government in 19 77, when International Nickel announced that they were going 3153

Wednesday, 29 April, 1981 to have to cut back their work force at Thompson by several hun dred people. What we have seen since that time, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is a slow recovery of the industry, both nationally and internationally. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we never made a point of trying to blame the previous adminis tration for that. But when the memb er now stands and says th at mineral production in this province is down as a result of this government, then I cannot let that information go not being placed on the record, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

We now have the highest rate of exploration in this province that we have ever seen and anyone who knows anything about mining knows that the future of that industry depends upon exploration. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. HARVEY BOSTROM: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My question is to the Minister responsible for Parks in Manitoba.

I would ask the Minister if he could indicate if he wrote in a letter to the Whiteshell District Association in February that there was to be no new rent structure proposal being advanced by the government as part of the master planning process for the Whiteshell Park and I would ask him if the Minister could indicate how he could have said that when, in fact, the department is now proposing a master plan featuring a new fee structure which is reported to include fee increases of up to 300 percent? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, yes I can confirm that a letter was sent, I belie ve somebody who represents hi ms elf as Secretary or President of the Cottage Owners Association of the Whiteshell that clearly indicated to those people owning cottages, operating cottages in the Wh iteshell Park tha t the government is contemplating no rise at all in any of the rental rates or charges for the coming year.

Furthermore, I ind icated to him th at the reco mmendations, the Planning Depa rtment's activities, in drawing up and working towards the master plan for future development in the Whiteshell would contain consid erations of possible futur e recommendations that would come to government for consideration as to an appropriate rental fee that would realistically recover some of th e service charges that no fair minded person objects to being charged and paying for. But, Mr.

Speaker, at that same meeting that the honourable member refers to or the reporting of that same meeting, it was made abundantly clear that these were - and as the plan itself says - a draft

summary of recommendations that will now once again go through the laborious process of public perusal, public meetings and then eventually end up as reco mmenda tions to the Minister. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. BO$TROM: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister where the proposals are coming from. If he is expressing an interest in hearing from the public on these proposals then I would ask him how his government can be proposing an assignment fee on the transfer of lots which some people have labelled as an inheritance tax or inheritance fee?

I would ask the government, and this Minister in particular, why the government is proposing this kind of a tax when they saw fit to remove this tax from the incomes and inheritances of the wealthy in Manitoba and they are now proposing to put it on cottage owners, many of whom are modest income earners in the Province of Manitoba? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, let me make it very clear to the honourable member and more importantly through you, Sir, to all membe rs, cit izens of Mani toba very di rectly interested in this matter, namely, cottage owners, the Govern ment of Manitoba is proposing no such thing; th e Government of Manitoba is proposing no changes in the fee structure. What has been suggested at a public forum - public meeting - plans, drafts, draft proposals of a future structure to recover some of the costs in operating our provincial parks. Mr.

Speaker, the suggestion is and where the suggestion comes from is, Parks personnel believe that it would be a reasonable suggestion to make that the primary users of the parks pay for some of the services. We expend some $10 million of taxpayers' money in the operation of our parks. The current fee structure recovers very little of that in terms of, if you wanted to adopt "the user-pay principle". But, Mr. Speaker, I'm not at all at any loss to answer any of these questions in the House. I expect that the debate and the discussions will take place during the next month.

We have set up numerous pla ces for public heari ngs. We are doing, Mr . Speaker, precisely what we were asked to do by many of the same interested users of the park, namely, to engage in the broadest possible public exercise in discussion as to how best we plan the future development of that park. That was a process th at was started by my predecessor, the now Minister of Finance, one that I am completing and I would hope that perhaps by mid-July I will have, for the first time, some recommendations for me to consider as Minister, to place before my government. MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland with a final supplementary. MR. BOSTROM: I was hoping, Mr. Speaker, that this Min ister wouldn't repeat the bung les of his predecessor with respect to Park Planning. I would ask the Minister if he could indicate when he will directing his staff to give more than lip service to the public hearing process in developing the master park plans because it was evident in the meeting last night that the Whiteshell District Association claims that the Parks Branch ignored their brief when considering the recomme ndations put forward in their proposed park plan.

I would ask the Minister in view of this fact, how can he be saying that there is anything more than lip service being given to the public process and the public input into the proposed park planning. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I suppose an answer to that question is difficult to arrive at that would satisfy 3154

Wednesday, 29 April, 1981 the hono ur able mem ber. I have to have some confidence in the proposals that will finally filter up through to th e Mini ster on this occa sion, will represent and clearly indicate that this government has listened to that pu blic input, th at public response, that public assistance to the planning in the Whiteshell. Now, Mr . Speaker, I'm not tor one moment suggesting that with the diversity of interests that citizens of Manitoba have with respect to their parks, that it will be a unanimously agreed decision.

We have people, naturalists, who bel ieve that there should be very limited development in a park. We have private commercial operators who view the use of that park solely from their perspective and any expansion that may in one way or another affect their busi ness is viewed, and understandably so, as being not in their interests. On the other hand we have other people who have enjoyed for many years peace, solitude and the wonders of nature in that park with little desire on their part to see any further expansion of that park. But on the other hand, Mr. Speaker, I have to respond to the many people . MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order pl ease. Order please. Could I ask the honourable mem bers to please - order please. The time for question period has elapsed. ORDERS OF THE DA V MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honour able Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Deputy Speaker, would you please call Second Reading of Bill No. 52 and then Adjourned Debates on Second Reading from Bill 10 through to Bill 46? SECOND READING - PUBLIC BILLS BILL NO. 52 - THE INSURANCE ACT HON. GARY FILMON (River Heights) presented Bill No. 52,

An Act to amend The Insur ance Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, the amendments to The Insurance Act are minor in nature but important in order to recognize changes which are taking place and have taken place in the insurance indu stry in Manitoba. They are designed to benefit both those who purchase and those who provide certain types of insurance. The

definitions of insurance and life insurance, for instance, are amended to include annuities to be paid by the insurer for a fixed period or for a term ending on death. The In surance Act curr ently provides th at ins ur ance money which become s payable to a beneficiary on the happening of an event is not part of the estate of the insured. In recent court cases however annuities paid by life insurance companies have been ruled not to be insurance and are thus subject to claims of creditors 3155 of the insured. The amendment to the

definitions of insur ance and life insurance will provide that an annuity of a life insurance company be treated as insur ance, the reby preserving the rights of the beneficiary. The amendments to the definition of the insurance and life insurance have been recommended by the Association of Superintendents of Insur ance of the provinc es of Canada and the Canadian Life Insurance Association. The bill also provides for a new type of insurance called Legal Expense Insurance.

Ins urance of this kind is now bei ng marketed in Canada and is designed to provide insurance against costs incurred for specific legal services. The amendment will provide that this kind of insurance can be sold in the Province of Manitoba and that the Superintendent of Insurance may licence for this type of insurance. Provision is also made in the bill, Mr. Speaker, for insurance agents to carry Errors and Omis sions Insurance.

Such insurance will protect agents and their clients from losses due to inadvertent error or omission for which an altern ativ e res olution mechanism could involve time-consuming and costly litigation. Finally, Mr. Speaker, the bill further amends that part of the Act respecting motor vehicle liability policies. The amendments made in the bill remove the ability of an insurer to provide that it will not be liable for bodily injury to, or de ath of, any passengers in the car of the insured. The amendments to the Motor Vehicle Liability

Section will bring The Insurance Act into un iformity with current MPIC provisions and with the Acts of other provinces. I commend this bill, Mr. Speaker, to mem bers for consideration and enactment. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I wanted to ask questions of the Honourable Minister if I may dealing with that statement he made that annuities are being brought in under the definition of life insurance in order, as I understood him to say, in order to remove them from being made available for payment of de bts.

I wanted to kno w precisely whether he means that a person may insure himself, in exchange for an annunity for himself, and that annuity will not be available to pay the debts of the person who has taken out the insurance. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, my understanding is it's with respect to tax commitments that change is being made so th at annu ities, like other li fe insurance, are not taxable in the hands of the estate but I will clarify that and bring back the information prior to closing debate on second reading. MR. CHERNIACK: Again, Mr. Speaker, a further question.

More precisely, is it conceivable, from the way the Minister described this, that a person who's on the verge of bankruptcy might be able to buy insurance on his life payable to a beneficiary and that way remove that asset - the only available asset which would be the premiums - from his creditors being able to obtain payment for their amounts due by him. If that is conceivable then I'd

Wednesday, 29 April, 1981 like to know so that we can discuss a little more specifically and I would appreciate the Honourable Minister making those ans wers available during this deba te. MR. FILMON: Sim ilarly I'll bring back th e information on that, Mr. Speaker. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Vital that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. ADJOURNED DEBATES ON SECOND READING BILL 10 - THE BUILDERS' LIENS ACT MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Bill No. 10 , standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker, I adjourned this bill on behalf of the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. SAMUEL USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I don't want to take a great deal of time. This is the kind of legislation that I think both sides are going to concur in, by and large, but I think it's also the kind of legislation that is better debated clause by clause in commi ttee. I ju st want to make one point, Mr.

Speaker; that is it seems to me that one omission still does exist in the new legislation and perhaps it's the intent of the Minister not to provide for it. I would be interested in hearing comments from him on the point; that is, Mr. Speaker, that it seems logical that where a lien is placed on a piece of property owned by an individual, or owned by anyone, the owner of property ought to be advised that a lien is being placed on his property.

I think it's somewhat unfair that, up to now at least, liens have been placed on people's property and people have not been aware of them until they reach the point of wanting to . sell their property and then they found out that due to some default on a trade account of some sort, over a period of time, they have been su bjected to this lien on their assets without having had an opportunity to be aware of it or even trying to deal with it in whatever form is possible. Whether there is any way of dealing with it or not I don't know, Mr. Speaker.

The other point is that when the lien is removed, after one is aware that a lien is placed on one's property, it seems to me that it should also be incumbent on the person placing the lien to also advise that the lien has been removed when it is removed so that a person doesn 't have to continuously search his own land title or property title to find out just when the liens have been removed or when they are placed. If the Minister would like to comment on that or take it as notice and comment in commi ttee that would be satisfactory, Mr. Speaker. We're prepared to let the bill go. MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Hono urable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Closing debate? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Just a moment. We'll be closing debate. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, firstly let me thank the member for his comments. I agree with him that hopefully this will be a bill that all mem bers of the Hous e will even tually su pport. I agree with his comment that probably the best way of dealing with this bill is in comm ittee in a claus e by claus e discussion where discussion can take place on a more informal basis, Mr. Speaker.

I think in referring this to committee it may be more appropriate to refer it to a sm aller commit tee than Law Amendments Committee and perhaps the committee on Statutory Orders and Regulations would be an appropriate committee to consider this bill rather than Law Amendments Committee. Mr. Speaker, we will certainly be prepared to respond to the two basic concerns that the mem ber has mentioned today at the committee stage and hopefully that will be able to take place very shortly. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. BILL NO. 11-

AN ACT TO AMEND THE MUNICIPAL ASSESSMENT ACT MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Bill No. 11, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We have looked at this bill and we are prepared to have the bill go to committee. The amendments, I unde rstand, are basically what are contained in The City of Winnipeg Act. If we have any further questions, Mr. Speaker, we will deal with them at the committee stage. As far as we're concerned the bill can proceed from the House to the committee stage. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs will be closing debate. HON.

DOUG GOURLA V (Swan River): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I don't have anything further to add. I appreciate the comments from the mem bers opposite that this will now go to committee. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Bill No. 12, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for lnks ter. (Stand) BILL NO. 29 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE HIGHWA V TRAFFIC ACT

(2) MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Bill No. 29, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Rossmere. The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we are prepared to allow this one to go to 3156

Wednesday, 29 April, 1981 committee as well. There is just one area that we do have some concerns about. I believe the concerns have been expressed by the Member for Ste. Rose and also touched upon by the Member for Fort Rouge and that has to do with the classification of certain types of wheelchairs as mopeds and the difficulties that might go along with that in terms of Autopac costs, for instance, for insured vehicles, for a vehicle that can only travel possibly between three and seven miles an hour which we don't see as making very much sense.

Although we recognize that anyone getting out on the streets by themselves in one of these machines should be very careful and should know what the rules and regulations of traffic are about and be aware, it seems that there is really not that much of a necessity to require licensing - when I think of my seven-year-old daughter riding around on the streets in front of our place on a bicycle that goes much faster and doesn't require any kind of insurance or licensing.

So that whole area is one that does cause us some concern and we und erstand that people from the League for the Physically Hand icapped will be add ressi ng the committee and I'm sure experts from the Department of Highways will be explaining the rationale for the specific proposals being made. We will probably have more to say on that later on. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways will be closing debate. The Honourable Minister of Highways. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

I have to apologize to mem bers opposite because I did on two occasions - I wasn't in the House when they made their remarks but I did read them - and we have got both some confusion and in a couple of meetings with the Manitoba League for the Physically Handicapped I think, a resolution of some of their concerns. First of all I'd like to point out that the amendment which is being referred to is including in the classification of a moped, a thr ee-wheeled self­ propelled vehicle, not the electric-p owered wheelchair s tha t you see. (I nterje ction)- The Member for Kildonan is sayi ng, what's the difference?

If he would be patient and listen I might attempt to explain that for him. What we were faced with last year - and it was the Member for Transcona that brought it to my att ention and it was in the paper on several occasions - was a vehicle which had the capability of achieving some 14 -15 miles per hour. it was not an electric- powered wheelchair; it was a motorized tricycle. Now, this current version is electric-powered and has an attainable speed of some 15 miles per hour. Now the Member for Ste.

Rose shakes his head but that is just the cold hard facts of it because my Registrar of Motor Vehicles inspected one of them and that is the case with the type of vehicle that I'm referring to - I'm not going to use a commercial name because it's a position of no one in this House to advertise for a particular manufacturer or supplier - but that is the generation of three-wheeled self­ propelled vehicles that are available now. We know that there are a numb er of gasoline-powered ones which have, numb er one, a greater range; and numb er two, a higher attainable speed, upwards of 30 miles per hour.

So in bringing in that amendment we were addressing not only the specific instance that was raised last year of an electric-powered one - as it so happened, used by a physically disabled young gentleman - but in making an accommodation for th ose vehicles we are not making th at accommo da tion only for people with physical disabilities.

I think it is fair to say that in the day and age of constantly escalating energy costs that a lot of these vehicles may well become in common usage in the province for summertime and maybe even as covered vehicles in the wintertime for short trips, rather than using the family car, so th at any amendment th at we ma ke has to take th ose circumstances into consideration.

That's why it was a three-wheeled motorized vehicle that was included as a moped; th at did no t include a motorized wheelchair; it ha d no effect upon a mot orized wheelchair and that's where the members in the Opposition got somewhat distracted. So the intention was to give you a vehicle to provide a licensing framework for a vehicle which had speed capabilities in excess of 10 miles per hour, not the three and four miles per hour that members opposite were indicating.

There is no reference to them and no framework in which they are involved in, in any licensing requirements in current legislation, nor did the proposed amendment bring them under the law and the req uir ement of licensing. Motorized wheelchairs would remain just in exactly the same status that they are today.

But in two meetings with the Manitoba League for the Physically Ha nd icapped, they have made a proposal which I think deserves attention and that proposal being, because there are more vehicles than what we had been made aware of in the Motor Vehicle Branch that are self propelled; that have varyi ng rates of attai nable speed; th at at th e suggestion and discussion with the Manitoba League for the Physically Handicapped we believe the proper course to proceed with on this amendment is: numb er one, to withdraw the amendment bringing a thr ee-wheeled self-propelled veh icle un der the licensing requirements of a moped and to strike a committee which will take a look at the numerous types of vehicles which are available, not only for the physically handi capped but indeed to the general publ ic, an attempt to establish proper li censing criteria and operational procedures for these vehicles and, Mr.

Speaker, that in all probability will be the course that we proceed with. But I just want to once again re-emphasize, the confusion that was brought out by the Mem bers of the Opposition was not corr ect becaus e th e amendment was for only three-wheeled self-propelled veh icles, not motorized wheelchairs, and the amendment had no particular application to those vehicles. it was only de signed to bring into a licensing status, vehicles attainable of speeds in excess of 10 miles per hour which are becoming more and more available to all mem bers of the travelling public in Manitoba.

So I look forward to having this bill proceed to committee, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and look forward to comments from mem bers opposite. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose on a point of order. MR. A.R. (Pete) ADAM: Yes, the Minister wants to leave on the record that the Opposition had left 3157

Wednesday, 29 April, 1981 some confusion in regard to the bill referred to at the present time. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Minister when he introduced his bill, specifically mentioned the word that bill would take care of the Happy Wanderer machine vehicle and that is the name under which these motorized wheelcha irs are sold, Happy Wanderer. So for the Minister to come up and say now that it is the Opposition that is trying to confuse the issue, is incorrect. lt is the Minister that ha s conf used the issue when he made his presentation.

Specifically, he should put the mileage in his bill, then the speed of the machine would be licensed. But let him not try and confuse the issue now and get himself off the hook because he is the one that dug his own mess. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of the same point of order. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, first off, I don't believe there was a point of order but I want to address the Member for Ste. Rose. If he were to care to find out what a Happy Wanderer is, it is a three-wheeled electric tricycle. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. This is not the time for debate. Debate is over.

If it's on a point of order, I will allow the Honourable Minister to continue on a point of order. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I will then proceed on a point of order and allow you to rule whether in fact there was a point of order in the first place. The Member for Ste. Rose made reference to my reference to the Happy Wander er. The Ha ppy Wanderer as sold, is an electric- powered three­ wheeled tricycle; it is not a motorized wheelchair, Mr. Speaker. The Member for Ste.

Rose will be able to confirm if he has indeed seen one of these vehicles or the advertising literature on them, that they have th ree wheels, not four wheels, Mr. Speaker. Motorized wheelchairs that have speeds attainable of three miles per hour have four wheels and do not fall under that amendment. That is where the confusion came in because the Member for Ste. Rose made specific reference to wheelcha irs, which was not intended to be part of the legisl ative amendment. I only attempted to point that out today to prevent further confusion, which seems inevitable with the Member for Ste. Rose. MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: To the honour able members, differences of opinion do not constitute points of order. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 34, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for St. Vital. (Stand) Bill No. 35, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Logan. (Stand) BILL NO. 36 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE SECURITIES ACT MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Yes, thank you. Mr. Speaker, we are prepared at this time to see the bill go to committee. If we have any further questions, we will raise them at the committee stage. We are prepared now to have the bill received at committee stage. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and Environment will be closing debate. MR. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

I thank the members opposite for their consideration of the bill and ag ree that when it comes to committee we will have staff available and I would be pleased to answer any questions that might arise in their minds with respect to this bill. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 38 standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Logan. (Stand) BILL NO. 41- THE STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. We are prepared to have this bill go to committee. I wish to make a few comments on the bill before it does proceed.

Bills of this nature, Mr. Speaker, are always diff icult especially for Oppositions to deal with because you have to watch to make sure the Minister, or various Ministers, are not trying to pull a fast one on you, because they deal with practically the whole gamut of the Legislative Assembly acts and statutes that we have before us. My colleague the Member for Kildonan and I went through the bill clause by clause and we went through practically all the statutes that are available. One thing I want to point out, Mr.

Speaker, many of the amendments that are in this statute law amendment are corrections of bills that were in a hurry and too much speedup last year when they were being passed. I want to draw to the Minister's attention there are two sections in his present bill that he's going to wind up, if he doesn't take note of them - and I'm dealing with

Section 23 of the bill and I know we're not sup posed to deal with them in specifics - but there is a wrong reference in the bill that you're making a correction to. You're showing 23(5) , and it should be subsection 13 (5). There is also on

Section 30 where your bill says it amends 11 (2) but actually it should be 10(2) as you have in your explanatory notes. So I just point those two out to the Minister that there are a couple of errors in your bill as it is standing now.

Section 30 which amends subs ect ion 10 (2); it should be subsection 11 (2). I just draw these to the Minister's att ention. -(I nterject ion)- This is the Social Al lowances Act. Right. If the Minister checks his bill and the present statute, you'll find out that what you're wanting to amend and correct is 11 (2), not 10(2). The amendments to The Elections Act, we have checked those all out. We find nothing extraordinary except the one where there was some correction in the bound ary which seems, on checking with the Chief Electoral Officer, seems to be all right. The others seem to be just street names or bounda ry :uss

Wednesday, 29 April, 1981 points that have been incorrectly named streets instead of avenues and vice versa. We have no great In

Section 35 when the Minister is closing debate - it's unfortunate the Minister of Health is not here and perhaps we can deal with that in committee when we get to that stage if the Minister of Health will be there - but we would like to know why the changes from the present Manitoba Mental Health Act, -(I nterjection)- yes, why the changes from the specific Act as it is now. That is another one that we would like. Other than that, Mr. Speaker, the bill is just as I said, it's a catch-all tryi ng to make small amendments to bills rather than bringing in special acts for them.

I thank the Min ister for the explanatory notes that were received but that still doesn't let us off the hook, we still have to do a lot of checking to make sure. As I've pointed out we found a couple of errors. I'm not trying to be facetious or smart about it, I just want to make sure that we correct them before the bill is enacted or somebody will be back here next year or next session, trying to make those changes again. We are prepared to ha ve the bill go on to committee stage. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorne y­ General will be closing debate. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to thank the Member for Logan for his comments on the bill. If indeed his comments are accurate with respect to

Section 23 and

Section 30, Mr. Speaker, there could very well be some prospects of employment available in the Legislative Counsel's office upon his retirement from poli tics - whether th at be volun tary or involuntary. Mr. Speaker, I also will unde rtake to obtain from the Minister of Health - certainly if he can't be available when the bill goes to comm ittee - a further explanation or rea sons for the change proposed in

Section 35. Mr. Speaker, I thank him for his comments and the work that he and the Member for Kildonan have done on the bill. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Bill No. 42, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Logan (stand). BILL NO. 46 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE CORPORATIONS ACT MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Mr. Speaker, we have examined this bill. We are prepared to have the bill proceed to committee stage. If we have any further questions we will raise them at the time the bill is at the committee stage. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and Environment will be closing debate. The Honourable Minister. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I will wind up debate on this bill for Second Read ing.

As I ind icated in introducing th e bill, the intent was to normal ize procedu res with other jurisdictions across the country with respect to registration of companies and the various aspects of The Corporations Act. Since the introduction of the bill some other changes have come about that will require amendments to be introduced to normalize our procedures with those of the Province of Ontario, I believe, and I will have a couple of minor amendments to bring forth at the committee stage. I will just close debate on that note. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honurable Minister of Government Services that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Roblin in the Chair for the Department of the Attorney-General and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Northern Affairs. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPL V SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS MR.

CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I call the Committee to order. We're on Northern Affairs, 1(a). The Honourable Minister. HON. DOUG GOURLA V (Swan River): lt is with pleasure I present the Estimates of the Department of Norther Affairs to this Assembly for the 19 81- 82 fiscal year. At the outset I'd like to acknowledge the effort of my staff that was required in preparation of the Estimates. In addition their excellent service during the past year in delivering programs to those citizens in Northern Affairs jurisdictions of our province.

The programs and funding will reflect the continuing commitment to support the development of local government and the associated provision of services. The Estimates will reflect a continued use of cost-shared agreements to improve the quality of life in the north and the undertaking of responsibility respecting the Northern Flood Agreement. I'd like to briefly reflect on the past year. The level of development of local government has grown as commun ity people un dertake more decisions effecting their local area.

There has been a stronger and more active participation in the Budget process and the deliv ery of projects in the communi ties. The underlying strength in the development of the local government is the interest and responsibility being evidenced by so many communities in our north. Of major significance was the acceptance of the Fire Program with some 39 volunteer departments ready for training, a major change over the previous 3159

Wednesday, 29 April, 1981 six volunt eer depar tments. My de partment has provided nine fir e trucks plus other essen tial equip ment, the be ginnin g of a serious effort to prevent fires and reduce the ravaging effects should they start. In July 1980 a program for establishing civil emergency plans for a community was begun. To date nine northern communities have established plans with seven more underway. This was done in concert with the provincial Emergency Measures Organization.

I am pl eased to repor t that the arenas at Wabowden and Nor way House constructed in the early Seventies were reopened in 19 80 following extensive remedial work required due to construction deficiencies. The Camperville Arena built in 1972 was condemned, the un fortuna te victim of poor construction and unwise choice of structure. Some 39 homes built in the early Seventies at South Indian Lake were provided with sound foundations at a cost of $436,500.00. Su bsequent engi neering reports indicate remedial work will be required on other homes and the commun ity store at an estimated $550,000.00.

Remedial work continues to drain funds that otherwise could be used for new facilities and development needs. Among numerous road projects the all-weather road to Cross Lake was opened to traffic. The elect ion regu lations respecting northern communities had not been revised since 1973. A review commit tee consis ting of commun ity representatives, the Northe rn Assoc iation of Commun ity Councils and my department staff recommended changes that were accepted.

Those changes enable that every election in the north shall be held annually in the community to which it relates on the second Wednesday in the month of February; as well clarified issues of residency and conflict of interest. The Department of Northern Affairs manages three agreements: 1. The special ARDA Program continues to assist primary harvesters of natural resources and, in addition, provides managerial training to small busi ness enterprises.

To assist northerners with large numb ers of funding agencie s the department prepar ed a compilation entitl ed Programs for Development in Rural and Remote Manitoba. lt was distributed to mayors, chiefs, and other interested persons. To further provide access to information a toll-free numb er is available to all Manitobans. Special ARDA continues to be a very important program to Manitobans. 2. Activities within the Northern Flood Agreement have increased with severance-line proposals being com pleted for two Indi an reserves, Norway House and Nelson House.

At present some ten claims are before the Ar bit rator. Man itoba has conti buted $1.2 million to Niyan un incorporated sinc e the signing of the agreement. A further and final contribution of $400,0 00 is planned and advisory groups under the agreement have been assisted in their functions. 3. The Canada-Manitoba Northlands Agreement has completed its five-year term. Provincial staff, however , have been in detailed negotiations for a new agreement since the early summer of 19 80. Efforts have included a consultation process with northern people.

Depa rtment staff has now tab led programming similar to the expired agreement with an added emphasis on areas of economic development and employment. lt is anticipated that the agreement will be signed during the first quarter of this fiscal year. The Federal Government is being pursued on this matter. Our Estimates to follow my remarks will provide for increased funding in support of communities ongoing maintenance and operation; improved facilities in commun ities and the management of the various agreements. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr.

Chairperson. In response to that very brief introduction by the Minister of Northern Affairs for his departmental Estimates I have to say, right from the start, that we are once again disappointed. I guess it is a feeling that we should be getting used to by now in respect to the investigation, the examination and analysis of the Department of Northern Affairs Estimates under our Conservative government but I have to admit that it is not one to which one becomes immune; it is not a feeling that one can shake very lightly.

The reason for that is because as we travel through the north, as many of us do, we see the effects of the policy of the Cons ervative gover nment on the northern commun ities and on northern residents. The Minister has indicated in these Estimates that th ey are increasi ng their commitm ent to local government.

The Minister said much the same thing last year when he introduced his Estimates, yet if we review the occurrences in Northern Manitoba over the past year and if we review what northerners have had to say about local gov ernment in their communities over the past year, we will find that quite the opposite has in fact occurred. We will find that while the Minister gives lip service to local govern ment the people of the com muni ties are sugge sting tha t th ere is in fact very little local government in the north and that there is less and less as each year goes by.

The Mayor of Thicket Portage said not too long ago that commun ities want more control over budgets and capital spending. What did the mayor say at that time? He said the current system whereby the Provincial Northern Affairs Department controls the budget is, "loaded in favor of inefficiency". He also said that the department's auditing system is extremely fru strat ing. Thos e are the type of complaints, type of concerns th at we hear throughout our travels in northern Manitoba.

The department is not dec entralizing in respect to providing more control over their local affairs to the different commun ities; the department is in fact doing the converse, it is centralizing control over those commun ities and that is acting to the detriment of the north in general and is creating a great deal of frustration and anxiety on the part of many elected officials at the local level in Northern Manitoba, in specific. The Minister knows only too well that within the past week we've had another mass resignation of a mayor and council in a northern commun ity. How 3160

Wednesday, 29 April, 1981 many times do we have to have these types of mass resignations before the Minister finally clicks to the fact that there is something wrong with the system? How many mayors and councils have to go through a long frustrating process before they come to the realization that the only way they are going to get the Minister to listen is to resign before the Minister comes to the realization that perhaps something is wrong somewhere in the system; and something is wrong somewhere in the system.

Now, that bothers me and bothers others on this side to begin with but the fact that the Minister refuses to acknowledge that there is anything wrong; the fact that the Minister stands before us today and says that it is with great pleasure that he brings forward these Estimates confuses us. Does he not understand what the people are saying to him by way of mass resignation?

Does he not und erstand that it's not a matter of the awarding of one contract in the community like South Indian Lake that drives those people to that sort of desperate action; that it is a result of a combination of a long series of events where that community feels that each and every time, on general, they are being overruled by a bureau cracy. it's no wonder that they don't want to continue on in their jobs; it's no wonder to me at all.

When we talked to South Indian Lake last summer in respect to problems they were having and at that time we talked about the laundr omat, and we've talked about the laundoma t in these Estimates last year, the Minister knows about what happened with the laun dromat in the commun ity of South Indian Lake. We talked about the trailers that were brought in for the RCMP officers and the trailers that were brought in by the province and the different ways in which the two di ffe rent le vels of go vern ment approach provi din g the commu nity with an opportunity to work on preparing sites for those trailers.

When we did all that we knew then that in fact there was a great deal of frustration building up in that com muni ty and the Min ister kn ew. The Minister was in that community last year and he went in there because of that type of frustration and yet a year later we have the same situation in front of us. A year later we have seen very little, if anything at all, done by the Minister in a positive way to sort out the problems that commun ity is facing.

South Indian Lake is not alone in those problems, that as well must be said; neither is Thicket Portage; neither is Camperville; neither are any of the communi ties which have come forward over the past year and expressed a great deal of concern about the way in which their affairs were being handl ed by the department and express a great deal of concern about th e way the Mi nister was handling the department because I believe if you point a finger in respect to what's happening in Northern Manitoba you must point it at the Minister and not at the department. lt is the department which gets the direction from the Minister; it is the Minister which is supposed to provide that dir ection.

The type of direction that the Minister is providing is acting to the detriment of all those in Northern Manitoba who wish to see a furthering of their ability to self-govern themselves. So while we address the issue of South Indian Lake in specific, primarily because it is the most 3161 recent inc ident, we as well are addr essing the general policy thrust of the Conservative government, their hi storical thrust, their ide ol ogic al thrust; a dogmatic conception of the north as a colonial state and they can't escape it.

They cannot escape that as much as they would like and I don't think they want to, let's make that very clear. But even if they did want to, even if the Minister as an individual wanted to, he could not escape it. lt is so much a part of this party's history, it is so much a part of his party's gen eral philo sophy tha t as long as they are in government the north will suffer; as long as the Tory government retains power in this province the north will suffer. I see some members opposite shaking their heads in disbelief. MR. BLAKE: Poppycock. MR.

COWAN: I hear one of the mem bers, the Member for Minnedosa, saying that's a bunch of poppycock. Well go up north and talk to the people. Mr. Chairp ers on, through you I addr ess th at comment to the Member for Minnedosa, go and listen to the people and hear what they have to say about you and your government; hear the agony that that hear; hear the frustration that they hear; hear what they have to say to you, listen for once with your ears and try to escape from your own sordid past when it comes to dealing with Northern Manitoba. (lnterje ction)- MR.

CHAIRMAN: One speaker at a time and through the Chair please. MR. COW AN: lt is exactly that type of negative attitude that we are hearing today that brings us to the type of conversation that we are going to have toda y and throughout the examination of the Department of Northern Affairs. The Minister isn't acting alone; these fine backbenchers are supporting him in his actions; they're encouraging him in his actions.

When the Member for Minnedosa says, in response to the comments of just a moment ago - and they aren't on the record but I think they should be on the record - talk about the misappropriations he said twice. What is he saying? He is giving us some ins ight to how he views organizations in Northern Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa on a point of order. MR. DAVID BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. If the member wants to put those on the record he should have the full feeling of my remarks.

They're great for throwing the odd little point out and getting that on the record - the member of the opposition or the Member for Minnedosa said this or said that - but they don't have any idea of what context it was said in. My mention of that particular item was I want the member to settle down and be realistic in his remarks.

I know it's his job to thrash the Minister and to thrash the department but he's got to be a little tempered in his remarks and realize it's not a one-sided sword; it's a two-edged sword up north and he knows that very well but he's playing his role the way he way he sees it fit and he's going to have to live with that, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Churchill on the same point of order? No, all right. I think if we would

Wednesday, 29 April, 1981 just control ourselves. If any memb er wants the Chair if he signals he'll get his turn bBecause if we start to cross back and forth it's hard to recognize who has the point. The Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. I just have to address the point of order very briefly that was brought forward by the Member for Minnedosa and suggest that we have looked at the situation realistically; that we have gone and talked to the people and invited their responses and we have gotten their responses.

When I speak here today I am not speaking on my own, I am speaking for the people in my constituency; I am speaking for the people in Northern Manitoba and I am trying to give the Minister and his government some of the benefit of the insights which we have developed, not over the past years, not over the past three years, but over decades and decades in respect to what should be done to make the north a better place for people to live. That's all we are trying to do and we have shown restraint.

We have shown restraint for three long years just as the people of Northern Manitoba have shown restraint for three long years and we have tempered our remarks. When review ing my files for this particular Estima tes and going back thr ough las t years Estimates I'm amazed at how tempered our remarks were. I am amazed at the opportunities that we provided the government so that they might be able to develop a better northern policy. So we have tempered our remarks but there is a time for anger and I think perhaps now is the time for anger.

And if that upsets the members opposit then so be it, because there is anger and there is frustrat ion because there are problems in Northern Manitoba and the Conservative government has done nothing to deal with those problems in any sort of positive way and, in fact, th e Cons ervative gov ernment appears to have done a great deal to agg ravate existing problems and to create new problems where problems didn't exist before.

So I'm somewhat amazed that the Minister would want to take credit for what has been happening in respect to the development of local government in Northern Manitoba because the Minister's policies are not working; they are creating frustrat ion; they are creating antagonisms and they are creating a situation which will take some time to undo because they are building back into the system the sort of cent raliz ed cont rol over the affairs of remote commun ities which acted to the detriment to those communi ties for so many decades and so many years.

But it's not us who are only saying tha t the Progressive Conservative government has forsaken the north. A Free Press article, Mr. Chairman, March 14, 1981, PCs Blamed for Despair in North. Now who's blaming the PCs you might ask? Well, it says Northern Manitobans say neglect has led to fewer jobs and more welfare. Well cert ainly North ern Manitobans have said that the Cons ervative policies, which are policies of neglect, have led to fewer jobs and more welfare in the north.

And what does the Min ister say in respons e to th at very serious allegation, one which is substantiated by northerners, what does he say? He says he's sick and tired of the rhetoric on the north. What does he say exactly in the House - and I'm qu oting th e Min ister of Northern Affairs - "I'm sick and tired of all of this rhetoric from the other side about wha t isn 't happening in Northern Manitoba".

Then he went on to say that new roads were the key to unlocking the north and when he was asked what new roads had been started under the Conservative Government, his mind went blank - not the first time nor the last time his mind went blank - but his mind went blank.

He couldn't give us any concrete examples because there are very few concrete examples; because the road building that is ongoing in the North now is not what it used to be and if you want to ma ke the com parison of his go vernment's activities in road building in Northern Manitoba against our government's activities in road building in Northern Manitoba then let's do it because I think that's an accurate and a fair way to deal with it You will find they have cut back on road building to remote communities in Northern Manitoba. If he says that's the key, then he himself is taking that key and throwing it away.

If he is really sick and tired of the rhetoric on the North, if the members opposite are really sick and tired of hearing about how their government is failing in Northern Manitoba, then let them do something successful in Northern Manitoba. Let them develop programs which worked in Northern Manitoba; let them gestate from the historical approach to the North and try to, in in novative and imaginative ways, bring forward something positiv e for Northern Manitoba.

But they are going to refuse to do that; they have refused to do it for three years now; they have refused to do it for centuries and they will continue to refuse to do it but that's the only way in which they are going to avoid having to hear about how they are failing in Northern Manitoba because the situation is not just going to go away. The people are not going to suddenly stop talking about their own future.

The Minister talked about creating employment in Northern Manitoba and yet we have his own words that he thinks some of the projects which created employment in the North - and one of the members opposite likes to talk about Churchill and we talked about in specific the Churchill prefab plant - one of th ose projects which created employment, which developed skills in the North, which on a strictly balanced budget estimate was probably not making money but when you develop a cost-benefit analysis in order to determine the full benefits and the full financial reward from that plant it was in fact making money, but they disbanded the plant.

They threw people in the North out of work and because there was no other work in the community they had to go on welfare. They didn't want to go on welfare; nobody wants to go on welfare; people want productive emp loyment but when th e produc tive employment isn't there, people want to live. They don't want to starve; they don't want to live in misery so they go on welfare; it's not enough but it's something; it's better than nothing. When they go through the North cutting the work projects in the way in which they did they are going to in fact drive people out of employment and on to welfare.

The Mini ster says that he is doing this because he thinks that's more benef icial. Wel l, beneficial for whom? Beneficial for the people who 3162

Wednesday, 29 April, 1981 are on welfare? Certainly not. Beneficial for the government? Certainly not. Beneficial for the people of this province? Certainly not. I would like to know and we'll ask the Minister later on when we have an opportunity who he thinks is benefiting by his welfare over employment policy in the North. To whom does he think th ose benefits are accru ing? I'd be interested in his answer. I think it will liven the debate and give opportunit y for more que stions because that is a policy that I can't unde rstand; that is a policy that my colleagues cannot und erstand.

That is certainly a policy that the New Democratic party never subscribed to. I can assure him that it is a policy that the New Democratic Government never subscribed to and never intended to implement. I know for a fact that the people in Northern Manitoba have had a great deal of difficulty in trying to figure out exactly what the Minister meant when he said that he preferred welfare over employment. So there will be opportunity for the Minister to talk about that becaus e that indeed is a strange se ntiment. The Mi nister also talked about the Northlands Agreement. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR.

GOURLAY: I would like to correct the Honourable Member from Churchill. At no time did I ever say that welfare was better than employment and I would like to put it clear on the record. MR. COWAN: Well, I don't have the quote directly in front of me, perhaps the Member for Rupersland remembers the exact instance, but I can find the quote and I can certainly read the quote in the record. -(In terjection)- No, Mr. Chairman, it's certainly not a pass and I would like to find the quote because if the Minis ter wants to talk about that comment then perhaps we should talk about the comment. MR.

GOURLA V: Is this the same newspaper that calls South Indian Lake a mining town? MR. COWAN: You know, the Minister seems to take great pleasure, as does his colleagues, in knocking the Free Press and, this is very interesting, when the Minister is faced with a situation that is quite serious, when he ha s a whole council resign over hi s department's policies, over his own policies, when he is faced and confronted with that situation and asked in the House by the Opposition a legitimate question, will you go up there and talk to the people?

And if you don't go up there and talk to the people will you make a phone call to the people? What does the Minister talk about? He talks about the fact that South Indian Lake is not a mining community. That's all he cares ab out is that they made a simpl e mistake. I could suggest to him that his own Premier and his own Minister of Labour made a much much more obvious mis take when the y said that the population of Thom pson is 19, 000 people at this time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member from Minnedosa on a point of order. MR.

BLAKE: The Minister asked the Member for Churchill if he could tell him when he made that 3163 quotation and he hasn't answered it, he hasn't said when it was made or he hasn't retracted it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, the fact of the matter is that we are stretching our rules to allow this to apply on the Minister's Compensation, we really should be onto another item and I respect . . . MR. BLAKE: The Mem ber from Churchill, Mr.

Chairman, with all due respect, said the Minister of Northern Affairs would rather have welfare over employment for the people of the north and he asked him to show him where he said that and the member hasn't been able to do it so therefore he should retract it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member from Chu rchi ll, probably it isn't right to quote the Minister from a newspaper. If you have it maybe you could clarify exactly what you did say, we'd all . .. MR. COWAN: Mr. Chairman, on the point of order, I will, and I'm reading from a Free Press

article of the 17 th day of the 3rd month of this year, when it says that the Northern Affairs Minister was quoted as saying that programs, and these are job creation programs, were not good value when compared to welfare.

Now, if the Minister is at this point backing away from that statement then I'm glad to hear him finally come to his senses but the fact is that he made the statement and the fact is th at this statement is in the record and if we can go back to the Hansards, if someone wants to provide me with a Hansard for that day or the day before then I'm certain that we can point out in great detail exactly when, how, and wher e the Mini ster made that statement.

But the fact is that he has been quoted as saying that the job creation programs of the New Democratic party were not go od value when com pared to welfare and I would invite any comments that he might have to make in respect to that earlier statement. MR. BLAKE: Yes, I just wanted the record to show that the Member for Ch urchill is quoting from a newspaper

article that claims the Minister said that. MR. COWAN: We seem to be at a bit of an impass, Mr. Chairman, if you'r e not going to accept a newspaper quo te, however, if the mem bers can come forward and provide the Hansards for the days surr ounding that period of time and can - (Int erjection)- I'd like to make my point of order if I can before being interrupted. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member from Churchill. MR.

COWAN: Thank you, if the Minister or the members opposite can come forward with something that proves that he did not make such a statement then I would be willing to retract the statement, however, as it stands now, the only evidence we have is evidence that shows that he did make such a statement. MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, the quote in the newspaper, I can say, is accurate but the Member for Churchill did not quote what I had said accurately and took it out of context and I can elabor ate on

Wednesday, 29 April, 1981 that further but I don't think that this is the proper time right now. MR. COWAN: I can't see any better time, Mr. Chairman, for an elaboration on the part of the Minister because I would like, in this instance, to be proven wrong. MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, the long lists of projects that the former admi nistration had were make-work type of programs. None of them were ever self-sustaining; they were huge losers to the province; they were costing the taxpayers of this province huge sums of money.

Our admin istration looks at it from the point of view that we want to create lon g-term meaningful jobs tha t are self­ sustaining and that will reduce welfare costs; people don't like welfare; I don't like welfare. I'm sure people in the province would like to see welfare reduced but the types of huge spending projects that were mismanaged for the most part had no hope of ever becom ing self-sust aining and ma ny of the people were certainly not sure of what the projects were all about.

This is how I was quoted, perhaps maybe somewhat out of context but certainly it was a very costly program that we were getting into and it was one that the Province of Manitoba could not afford for very long . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair will rule that we are now on (1) (

b) so we're clearly somewhere within the rules of the House. If we go on like this (

b) opens up the same subje ct and if you want me to quote it I will - Salaries and Wages. The Member from Churchill. MR. COWAN: Mr. Chairperson, I had not com pleted my response to the Minister which has been allowed in other instances. The years previous and in other Estimates during this year I believe it has been the pract ice of the Minister to make an op enin g statement under that item for the Opposition to respond. But if you want to go on to 1(

b) and you believe that will deal with the situation I'm perfectly willing to do that. I'd like to be able to continue on in my remarks; I would not be able to lose the floor because of that change. MR. CHAIRMAN: We are breaking the rule to do what we've always done. The Member for Churchill is perfectly right to be allowed one comment seeing we're getting into a hassle. We're on to (b)(1 ). I recognize the Member for Churchill - (1) (b). MR.

COWAN: Now, based on the Minister's last statement, I'm interested in finding out if he believes that the welfare that was necessitated in Churchill because of the closure of the Churchill prefab plant is a better investment of the taxpayers' dollar in this province than it would have been to keep that plant open. I would hope the Minister would answer \hat.

Quite directly, does he belie ve that it is better to spend money on paying out welfare to unemployed Churchill residents than it was to spend money on provi ding emplo yment for them and, as well, providing them with experience which they can use in other jobs? MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, I understood that the Member for Churchill wanted to complete his remarks in response to my opening remarks. Are we getting into line-by-line questioning or where are we? MR. CHAIRMAN: We're at (1) (b). MR.

COWAN: lt was not I who wanted to proceed directly into line-by-line questioning it was the will of the Chair and I accepted it as being appropriate and therefore would hope the Minister would take this opportunity, under line-by-line questioning, to talk in general ways ab out his govern ment's poli cy in respect to employment versus welfare in Northern Manitoba. I think that's perfectly legitima te under the rules of this Committee. MR. GOURLA Y: Cert ainly the project tha t the member refers to was one that we couldn't sustain for very long.

I don't have the details on tha t operation right handy but I can get them for a subsequent session. But certainly it was a very heavy loser and one that had to be stopped. MR. COWAN: The question to the Minister is simply, why did it have to be stopped? MR. GOURLAY: I don't know what I have to say to inform the member that this was a very huge loser of taxpayers' money and one that had no hope of becoming self-sustaining. lt was scrapped on that basis. MR. COWAN: Can the Minister indicate how much money that project was losing and how much money that project was projected to lose over the next five years?

Does he have that figure available to him? MR. GOURLAY: No, I don't have that information available and it was prior to my coming on as Min ister of Northern Affairs but I can get tha t information as I mentioned earlier. MR. COWAN: When would the Minister be prepared to provide us with that information? MR. GOURLA Y: I would say the next time we meet or the next sitting or shortly thereafter. MR.

COWAN: So at the next tim e that this Commi ttee meets the Min ister is making a commitment to provide to us a figure which would be equi valent to the amount of money which the Churchill prefab plant would have lost by continued operation for this year or for the year in which it was cut back and for a five-year period; is that correct? MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, the mem ber is putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that at all.

I said I would bring back the information that we had with respect to that operation when it was func tioning and the types of losses that it was creating; that's what I promised to bring back and nothing else. MR. COWAN: Will the Minister bring back the cost­ benefit analysis which was done which showed that plant, in fact, could remain operational and could provide dividends to the province if one took into consideration the lost tax revenue, the welfare costs which would be paid out as a result of the closure of 3164

Wednesday, 29 April, 1981 that operation and the other social impacts which would exhibit themselves in the communi ty at the time of the closure and ther efore would cost taxpayers increased mone y for the provision of services to deal with the social disruption caused by the increased unemployment in the commun ity? MR. GOURLAV: No. MR. COWAN: Why won't the Mini ster do tha t because that has to be part of the equation? You just can't say that a company lost money this year and for that reason we're going to scuttle it or scrap it, to use the Minister's words.

One has to review the situation to find out the effects of shutting down that operation. How many people are going to be on welfare? What are going to be the welfare costs to the province because of that? How many people are paying taxes because the y are wor king at tha t operation? What's going to be tax revenue loss to the province? What's going to be the tax revenue loss to the general area? What kind of accelerated programs are you going to have to put in place to deal with the manifestations of the social disruption that accompanies any closure?

If you don't do that then you can't very well make the statement that particular project is costing the Province of Manitoba money because you don't know, because you don't have the full figures before you. And if you're going to read one line against another on a simple balance sheet then you will find that in many instances you are making a wrong decision based on incomplete information.

So I would ask the Minister again, can he provide to us that social cost-benefit analysis so that we can have all the information available to us in respect to the cost of operating that plant after it was closed and the cost of not operating that plant after it was closed? MR. GOURLAV: I'm not prepared to do that, Mr. Chairman. MR. COWAN: The Minister says he's not prepared to do that. I'l l have to accept that but perhaps the Minister would use this opportunity to explain why he is not prepared to do it.

I'm not trying to change his mind at this point because he seems to have his mind made up but I would like to have some insight as to why he made that particular decision. MR. GOURLAV: I'm not prepared to comment any further on it, Mr. Chairman. MR. CO WAN: You'r e not? Mr . Chairman, the Minister says he's not prepared to comment any further on that particular item?

I mean we'll have to accept him at his word but we certainly have to question why it is that he is not prepared to discuss wha t is an essen tial item in respect to his department's poli cy th rust and in respect to conditions in Northern Manitoba. it's going to be a very complex Estimates if, in fact, the Minister is going to, at one point or another, arbitrarily and unila terally decide that he's not prepared to discuss wha t are very cr ucial issues to the people of No rthern Mani toba , to the Opposi tion, I would suggest to his government.

Would he not reconsider that and perhaps allow this discussion to continue so that we can have some better insights into why he's making the type of decisions he's making? You know, perhaps - and I don't think it's the case - but perhaps he's made a right decision from time to time. Certainly he'd want the opportunity to explain how he came to that conclusion, to substantiate his decision and even to try to change our mind if we're in the wrong in respect to criticising the decision of his and he has evidence to prove otherwise.

I would hope that he want to bring that evidence forward so that we can all understand a bit better the way in which his government is proceeding with Northern development. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1(b) - the Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Well then perhaps I'd ask the Minister if he can indicate to us what projects, work projects, have been shut down by the government over the past four years or three years, since they've taken office in October of '77. MR. GOURLAV: Mr. Chairman, we can provide that lis tin g. We don't have it avai lable right at the moment MR.

COWAN: Has the Minister talked to individuals who were emp loyed by these projects to try to determine if in fact they bel ieve that the course of action which the government is following is in fact the proper course of action? MR. GOURLAV: Mr. Chairman, most people that I've talked to prefer to work on long-term meaningful jobs; they don't like government make-work projects. MR.

COWAN: I have no doubt that most people prefer to work on long- term jobs when they're offered a choice between long-term jobs and short­ term make-work jobs, however when they're offered the choice between no jobs and short-term make­ work jobs is the Minister still of the opinion that they would prefer welfare over work? MR. GOURLAV: Mr. Chairman, I would say that there's been considerable improvement made in the general activities of the north.

Perhaps there's still a long way to go in empl oyment, th ere's many communities that have high employment but certainly with the mining exploration and other developments tha t are taking place in the north and also the projects through the Commu nitie s Ec onomic Development Fund - that particular corporation has created more jobs in the last three years than the last thr ee years of the previous admin istration did. MR. COWAN: The question to the Minister was has he talked to people in respect to whether or not they prefer sh ort-term ma ke -work empl oyment over welfare? MR.

GOURLAV: I'm not sure that I've talked to th ese specific people th at ha ve been in th ese projects that you refer to. MR. COWAN: Does the Mi nis ter think th at individuals in Northe rn Manitoba would prefer welfare over being employed, even on a short-term basis, on what the Mini ster calls a make-work project? 3165

Wednesday, 29 April, 1981 MR. GOURLAY: Could the member repeat th at question? MR. COWAN: Yes. I was asking the Minister if he hasn't talked to individuals in respect to this I'm asking for his opinion and the opinion I would like from the Minister is does he believe that individuals would prefer welfare over being employed if even only on a make-work short-term project? MR. GOURLAY: I would say for the most part people do not enjoy living on welfare; they would prefer to work. MR. COWAN: And those people would prefer to work on even short-term make-work projects, as the Minister calls them? Is that his opinion?

MR. GOURLAY: I would think perhaps they may. That's correct. MR. COWAN: So let us have the record straight, Mr. Chairperson. The Minister is not saying that they have disbanded these make-work projects because people in the north want them disbanded; they have disbanded them for other reasons. MR. GOURLAY: As I explained earlier, the types of jobs that we are trying to create are long-term meaningful jobs that will be self-sustaining.

The types of projects, as I indicated, that were for the most part started under the previous admin istration were big losers and had no hopes of becoming self­ sustaining, they weren't short-term jobs. MR. COWAN: Th e Mini ster di dn't ans wer the qu estion but I don't think he will either, Mr . Chairperson, but that's his prerogative certainly. I would ask him perhaps to bring back information for our next sitting, if he doesn't have it available now, as to how many long-term self-sustaining jobs have been created in Northern Manitoba in his three-and­ a-half years of government?

As well I would ask if they can provide information on how many long-term self-sus taining jobs have been lost in Nor th ern Manitoba during their term of government? MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure if that information is available to us but if it is we'll get it. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1(

b) the Mem ber for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to make some general comments on the Minister's office part of the Estimates which covers the entire department and therefore it should be possible to comment on the general concerns we have before we get into the specifics of the department. Mr. Chairman, I'm particul arly concerned with many of the things which my colleague has already brought up and that is the government's attitude towards northern development.

Certainly, as we have seen over the past three years of this government, they do not appear to have the interest of the commun ities at heart in terms of the development of an kind of innovative programming. What we have seen is the reduction or elimination of any kind of developmental programs that have been available through the Department of Northern Affairs. What we have seen in its place is the concentration on the physical del ivery of infrastructure services to the communities.

Now granted that's a very important function of the Department of Northern Affairs but it's not the only function of the Department of Northern Affairs. lt certainly wouldn't be the only function of a Department of Northern Affairs under a New Democratic party government. I say that, Mr. Chairman, because I think that is where the contrast lies between the Conservative approach to northern commun ities and the NDP approach to devel opment in the north.

If we look at the north in general we see that it's really doomed to become a welfare population if the provincial government continues to follow this policy because really they're only looking after the physical side of the communities; they're not attempting in any way to assist the commun ities to develop economically; they're not assisting them to develop their resources.

They're forcing them to rely on an unstable su bsistence economy, trapping and fishing, which has been there for centuries is practically the only occupation which this government I think considers the people are able to do in the northern commun ities. They're certainly not doing anything about the high unemployment. The environmental problems in the commun ities are not being looked at sufficiently by this government in spite of their blink ered view of the communit ies and their concentration on only the physical side of their problems. There's certainly an inadequate level of social programs and resources.

Mr. Chairman, the north in Manitoba suffers much the same kind of problems as developing countries and it's something that any government has to take notice of and has to try to develop the programs to deal with those problems. If you look at the area, Mr. Chairman, you see that the area generally has the highest ill iteracy rate in any place in Ma nitoba and certainly it's compa rable with devel oping count ries in that respect. If you look at the statistics you see there is a higher suicide rate which is related to the depression conditions that face the people in the communities.

There are more youths and able-bodied people on welfare than anywhere else in Canada. There is a higher rate of infant mortality because of the unsafe conditions of the housing and the improper health services that are available and, Mr. Chairman, I think a large part of the problems that are facing Northern Mani tobans toda y are part and parcel of the blink ered view tha t the Conservative party has towards Northe rn people.

Th ere's certa inly an indecisiveness if not a complete lack of responsibility on the part of the Prog ressive Cons ervative government in developing any kind of northern social or economic policies. There has really been no efforts made other than to continue some of the programs that the NDP brought in. I don't know one single solitary program that this Minister or any other Minister can hold up and say this is some thing that we've developed and we are holding out, to be at least part of the answer to the problems of Northern Manitoba.

They have simply carrie d on the part of the poli cies that were developed by the NDP and even there they have watered them down to the point where they actually 3166

Wednesday, 29 April, 1981 discrimina te in the delivery of the policies and we saw the commun ities economic development fund as a case in point, where it's not even available to over 75 or at least 50 percent of the Native people that live in the Northern part of Manitoba and that is the treaty Indian people, thiss government is ignoring their economic development opportunities.

They are ignoring them and refusing to permit them to even apply to the Communi ties Economic Devel opment Fund for assistance and I say that's a discrimina tory policy - I've said it before and I'll continue to say it - becaus e I think this go vernment should be embarrassed by that kind of a policy and it certainly should be pointed out at every opportunity.

If you look at the North it's become even more isola ted econom ically and socially si nce this government has been in power. lt certainly exhibits something which I think is really unfortunate and that is the sense of hopelessness that has developed in many commun ities. You talk about doom and gloom in the Province of Manitoba, Mr.

Chairman, you cert ainly see it and hear it in many No rthern commun ities because there is a sense that there is no government either provincially or federally that's really interested in their problems and is really prepared to do anything about the major problems which they are facing. So there is certainly a lack of confidence in the future.

I saw when I was first elected in 1973, in many of the Northern communi ties, in fact most of them, there was a sense of hope that something was going to be done and there was a sense of participation in the local government, a participation and a potential economic development of the communities and that is something that has waned, certainly under the Conservative Government because they see this government as not being one that's receptive to that part of their development, in fact to the point where they've just thrown up their hands and they say there's no point in even writing a letter; or putting in a proposal; or making any effort really to get this Cons ervative Government to move in areas of economic and resource development.

We may as well just forget about it. So there's that sense of hopelessness when it comes to economic development opportunities. I think that's sad and it's something that this government has to be blamed for because they certainly haven't done anything in that area. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, I would think that generally the government's response which has been characterized by one of providing a very minimal level of service which is just sufficient to gu arantee the containment of people in the remote commun ities. it's not a large enough level of service to allow them to develop any opportun ities for education or training to get out of the community and to pursue other opportunities; it's a containment policy which this government is following. it's one of providing welfare and just keeping people down, in the community and not doing anything more in terms of assisting them.

The North generally, Mr. Chairman, is lacking in most services and especially in the area of health care. I think it's tragic and it's something which should be a sour ce of shame to Mani toba and 3167 Federal governments that people in the North suffer such a low degree of health care and as a result there is such a high degree of infant mortality and other health problems. If you look at the reports on alcoholism, Mr .

Chairman, you see that alcoholism exceeds by nearly 50 percent the provincial average in Manitoba and certainly that also can be attributed to the feeling of desperation and hopelessness that people feel in Northern commun ities. it's not only the Indian or Native people that have problems with alcohol, it's every person, every resident, in many cases every kind of resident that lives in Northern commun ities.

You talk to teachers, nurses, professional people in the commun ities who find that in many cases there are alcohol problems ther e too because of the isolation and the lo neli ness associa ted with commun ities that have very little opportunities for recreation or personal development of any kind. Mr. Chairman, if this government doesn't have any sens e of politi cal pu rpose in rela tionship to development of the northern part of Manitoba I think it's a sad case for Northerners.

I've questioned the various Ministers on this, whether it be the Minister of Mines or the Minister of Natural resources or in this case the Minister of Northern Affairs, and none of them seem to have any sense of political policy or purpose as to where they may be going in terms of the government's direction in Northern Manitoba. What seems to be particularly absent is any kind of philosophical commitment to develop any kind of innovative programs to assist Northern people. Then you see, Mr.

Chairman, the headlines, "The province ties roads to jobs" and my coll eague already mentioned when we asked the Minister of Nor thern Affairs which roads were going to be developed which would create jobs, he couldn't think of any. Well, Mr. Chairman, when that's your only policy and your only idea or concept of something that may assist Northern people in developing jobs then when you pursue even that glim mer of hope, that little light of possibly some concept in the mind of the Mini ster as to what may assist Northern residents we find even there, there is blackness and nothing.

He doen't know what he's going to be doing even in terms of better roads. The Minister was also quoted in the same

article as saying he doesn't have a lot of ideas for creating empl oyment. Well, that's certainly true and I think it exem plif ies the Progr essive Con servative Government in their attitude towards the north. In fact I suppose it would be exemplary for the whole province that they don't have any ideas as far as creating employment. Mr. Chairman, it's interesting to listen to the Minister who said today that he doesn't want to start any short-term make-work projects. You would think then, Mr. Chairman, that he has some kind of a policy on the other side of the spectrum which is to create long-term jobs. Mr. Chairman, when you look at the

article - the same

article where he ties roads to jobs - you see that the Divisional Personnel Manager for Sherritt Gordon Mines at Leaf Rapids and Lynn Lake is quoted as saying "that a proposed Na tiv e hirin g and training program had been scrapped" and that the reason was production is so low the company doesn't have time for as he call it "li ttle fringe programs".

Wednesday, 29 April, 1981 Mr. Chairman, I think that the reason that Sherritt Gordon is not proving itself to be a good corporate citizen by increasing its opportunities for Native people, particularly the unem ployed people in the remote commu nities, increasing opportunities for these people to have jobs, permanent long-term jobs in the community, can also be laid at the doorstep of the Provincial Government.

What initia tive is the Provincial Government taking to ensure tha t the companies that are operating, that can have the potential of providing long-term jobs to people are actually fulfi lling their responsi bility. Here again there's a failure on the part of the government to really do anything in that area. I want to follow this up, Mr.

Chairman, when we get down to line by line because I think that the government now has an opportunity, with a new mine opening up in the area of Bissett, Manitoba, which is a remote community which comes under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Northern Affairs, where he could take the initiative and make sure that there is provisions made that would compel the company to take the initia tive, to get out there and to recruit their employees, their 200 employees that they need from the local area. There are people there that have mining skills th at could be taken on I'm sure immed iately without any training.

But, Mr. Chairman, there is sufficient lead-time, which I think would be available to the mining company, to provide training programs for the mill operation which is going to be in operation I understand towards the end of 19 81; they could have training programs in place to make sure that people are trained to plug into those jobs as soon as they come available. Mr.

Chairman, there's good reason on the part of both the government and on the part of the company to do this kind of thing because on the part of the government many of th ese people are now on unemployment insurance, if they were lucky enough to have had a job sometime during the last year, or they're on welfare. Mr. Chairman, to the extent that they can be put into permanent employment is a savi ng to the taxpayers, both provincially and federally. On the part of the company, Mr.

Chairman, the statistics show that the most reliable workers, the workers that have the lowest turnover rate in mining towns, are those that come from the remote northern commun ities. The highest turnover rate is recorded in those mining towns where they have the transient miners that come from all over the world to work in mining towns. Many of them stay two or three weeks or a month till they get a stake and they're off; when they spend their money they're on to the next mining town in some other jurisdiction. They'r e a very transient population in that respect. I want to compare, Mr.

Chairman, this government's attitude toward that one thing which the Minister wants to hang his hat on - long-term job creation to the efforts that are being made in Saskatchewan by the NDP government there, to make sure that Native people have an opportunity to participate in the long-term jobs that are made available through resource development and mining. If you take a look at the one example that has come to my attention - the AMOC development which is a combina tion of the AMOC Company and the Saskatchewan Mining and Devel opment Corporation.

They have, in a lease, the government has compelled the company to ensur e th at Native people are trained and employed in that mine. They have a 43- page lease under which the company is compelled to have at least half of the company's mine and mill employees to be of Native descent. Mr. Chairman, it's spelled out clearly in a lease. There's no just word-of-mouth commitment that yes we're going to look for people in the local area and we'll make every effort to ensure that we hire people that are available because, Mr .

Chairman, we ha ve the experience to know that this goodwill part does not always come through to create jobs. lt has to be more concrete and definite than that. I would say that the government here should be able to take an example from the AMOC situation in Saskatchewan because if you look at what is happening there now you see that AMOC has exceeded its 1982 objective already by this time.

The Native employees in the Saskatoon office even are a case in point where they're proving that the Affirmative Action Program which has been in a sense foisted upon them by the NDP government in that province, is working out to the company's advantage; they're getting very good dedica ted Native people working in their operation. They have to go some lengths to live up to the lease.

One of the requirements for example is that the company's recruitment team make regular sweeps through the vil lages of Northern Saskatchewan to interview people and to line up promising candida tes who are flown to Saskatoon for interviews, briefings, medical exam inations, etc. Those that are still interested in working are given the opportunity to enter the work force at the Cluff Lake Mine in No rthern Saskatche wan. lt's an expensive and lengthy process as admitted by the AMOC people but, Mr. Chairman, they say, and I quote from them, "lt pays off".

People who are hired cannot become early dropouts because they know what to expect. If you com pare th at to other mines even in Northern Saskatchewan the ultima te bottom line is the turnover experience. The turnover at AMOC last year was running around 38 percent with its Native employees in place and that's compared to 10 0 percent turnover which has been experienced at Eldorado Nuclear in Uranium City. At the latter mine in Uranium City most employees are non-Native and many are non-northern residents.

You can see the same thing in Northern Manitoba if you take a look at Thompson, any of the northern mines with the possible exception of Flin Flon where they have a pretty stable work force. The turno ver rate is approaching 100 percent. The mining companies would be well advised to look to the people that are living right in the north to become part of their labour force because they would have a more stable labour force.

In so doing I'm sure it would be a happier and more profitable experience for the company and this is an area which the government, if it had any gumption and any initiative, would get in there and make sure it happens. If they're talking about long-term jobs here's an opportunity for you, take that on as a project. But, Mr. Chairman, the thing that we see from this government is a lack of attention and a lack of interest and because of that I don't even hope, I don't even expect that they will do anything even given the information that's provided to them of the potential success of these kind of programs. 3168

Wednesday, 29 April, 1981 MR. CHAIR MAN: The memb er will ha ve approximately nine min utes when th e Comm ittee meets again. The hour being 4:30 Committee rise for Private Members' Hour. Committee rise. SUPPL V - ATTORNEY -GENERAL MR. DE PUTY CHAIR MAN, J. Wally McKenzie (Roblin): Committee will come to order. We are examining the Estimates of the Department of the Attorney-General and we are dealing with Resolution No. 17 , 2(b)(2) the final item and I understand that the Hono ur able Atto rney-General ha d some information to bring to the Committee.

If that's the way you wish to start or the Honourable Member for Wellington whichever the Committee suggests. MR. BRIAN CORRIN: I was going to suggest the point, Mr. Chairman, that the first item would be the item, well I guess two items that were carried over, being th e expe nses incu rred by the Provincial Government to pay special counsel responsible for the conduct of the Constitutional Reference Case, namely, Mr. Kerr Twaddle. 1t was indicated yesterday that information would be brought back to us at the beginning of today's Session.

The other item I'm less enthus iastic about, I think it can be covered under this item so I don't care, that's dealing with the wire-tap information which I think will flow naturally into the criminal prosecutions item. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I thank the Honourable Mem ber for Wellington. The Honourable Attorney­ General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I've not yet received all of the informa tion. Today being Wednesday Cabinet met this morning and I came right into the House.

I don't have that information available today with respect to either matter but I hope to have it available tomorrow at the start of the Estimates. I think we could agree at the start of the Estimates tomorrow I would raise whatever information I have and whether the item is passed or not we can return to it. I have no objection to that. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Can I get some advice from the Committee. Will we leave this item, pass it, the Attorney-General will bring the info