1989 Legislative Session: 3rd Session, 34th Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.

The printed version remains the official version.

Official Report of

DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(Hansard)

THURSDAY, JUNE 15, 1989

Afternoon Sitting

[ Page

7523 ]

CONTENTS

Routine Proceedings

Oral Questions

Knight Street Pub investigation. Mr. Sihota –– 7523

Sale of Westwood land. Mr. Williams –– 7523

Electoral boundaries. Mr. G. Hanson –– 7525

Low-level military flights. Hon. Mr. Vander Zalm replies to question –– 7525

Committee of Supply: Ministry of Education estimates. (Hon. Mr. Brummet)

On vote 16: minister's office –– 7526

Ms. A. Hagen

Mr. Lovick

Estate Administration Amendment Act, 1989 (Bill 33). Hon. S.D. Smith

Introduction and first reading –– 7527

Committee of Supply: Ministry of Education estimates. (Hon. Mr. Brummet)

On vote 16: minister's office –– 7527

Mr. Lovick

Ms. A. Hagen

Mr. G. Janssen

Mr. Perry

Mr. R. Fraser

Mr. Cashore

Mr. Barnes

Committee of Supply: Ministry of Finance and Corporate Relations estimates.

(Hon. Mr. Couvelier)

On vote 76: new programs –– 7545

Mr. Rose

Mr. Rogers

Mr. Clark

Workers Compensation Amendment Act, 1989 (Bill 27). Committee stage.

(Hon. L. Hanson) –– 7552

Mr. Sihota

Mr. Lovick

Employee Investment Act (Bill 32). Committee stage. (Hon. Mr. Veitch) –– 7558

Mrs. Boone

Mr. Clark

Mr. Miller

Third reading

Personal Property Security Act (Bill 28). Committee stage

(Hon. Mr. Couvelier) –– 7578

Mr. Clark

Third reading

Finance and Corporate Relations Statutes Amendment Act, 1989 (Bill 29)

Second reading

Hon. Mr. Couvelier –– 7581

Mr. Clark –– 7581

Hon. Mr. Couvelier –– 7582

British Columbia Enterprise Corporation Loan Privatization Act (Bill 43).

Second reading

Hon. Mr. Couvelier –– 7582

Mr. Williams –– 7582

Hon. Mr. Couvelier –– 7583

The House met at 2:06 p.m.

HON. S. HAGEN :

Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to introduce to the House today two very good

friends of my secretary: Alison Rankin and Jack Frost from Great

Britain. Would the House please make them welcome.

MR. SERWA :

On behalf of my colleague the second member for Okanagan South (Mr.

Chalmers) and myself, I would like to let the Legislature know that in

the precinct today is a group of 57 students from Glenrosa Elementary

School. They are accompanied by teachers Mrs. Jennifer Reece, Mr.

Cooksley, Mr. Nelson, Mr. Tonn and supervisors Mrs. Rita Ross and Mrs.

Judy Monai. Would the House please make this group from Okanagan South

welcome.

HON. MR. HUBERTS : In the House today we

have a Mrs. Barbara Lawrence visiting us from Haywards Heath, West

Sussex, England. Would the House please make her welcome.

MR. CASHORE :

Mr. Speaker, visiting in the House today we have Gail Jernberg from

Coquitlam and Doreen Sookocheff from Victoria. Would the House join me

in making them welcome.

MRS. GRAN : Mr. Speaker, seated in the House today — half of them are here now, and half will be coming in at 2:30 — are

60 grade 7 students from Simonds Elementary School in Langley, with

their teachers Mr. McGowan and Mr. Dedrick. Would the House please make

them welcome.

MR. CHALMERS : Visiting from the great

constituency of Okanagan South, we have two very special friends of my

colleagues and myself. They are Cliff and Marion Bremner. Marion

Bremner is a member of the city of Kelowna council. While she's here,

she will be taking advantage not only of watching the proceedings for a

while this afternoon but of meeting with the hon. Minister of Municipal

Affairs (Hon. Mrs. Johnston) on matters concerning the city of Kelowna.

I'd ask that everybody in the Legislature make them welcome.

Oral Questions

KNIGHT STREET PUB INVESTIGATION

MR. SIHOTA : Yesterday the Minister of Labour admitted outside this chamber

that he had had discussions with the Attorney-General in relation to the call

of political interference. If the Minister of Labour thought it important enough

to tell the chief law enforcement officer of this province about the political

interference, could he explain to the House why he did not think it important

enough to include the matter of political interference in his internal report?

HON. L. HANSON :

I have taken a number of questions on notice. I will take this question

on notice also, and I will respond to those questions this coming

Monday in the House.

MR. SIHOTA : Could the minister

also tell this House precisely when he told the Attorney-General about

the matter, and whether there was a delay between the time that he told

the Attorney-General and the Crown counsel's investigation of the

matter?

HON. L. HANSON : Obviously, as I said

earlier, socialism affects the hearing. I will be responding to those

questions that I have taken on notice on Monday, and if the member can

see his way clear to be here, he will get the answers then.

MR. SIHOTA :

The public has a right to know the entire truth of this matter, and I

want to put all the questions on the record for the minister so he can

provide the public with a full measure of the truth.

Could

the minister confirm that there was a two-track strategy here: on one

hand, to come up with the internal report which would suggest that

there was no problem; and the second track, to send it over to the

Attorney-General for a matter of fixing the dilemma the government

found itself in? Was there a conscious decision then to engage in this

two-track way of resolving the issue?

HON. MR. RICHMOND :

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the member is clearly out of order,

not only because of the innuendo in his question, but because the

minister has clearly said that he plans to make a full disclosure to

this House on Monday next and trusts that the member can make it on

Monday.

SALE OF WESTWOOD LAND

MR. WILLIAMS : To the Premier. To revisit the Westwood lands decision: did the Premier not insist on a cash offer?

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM : No, Mr. Speaker. I insisted on the best offer for the people of British Columbia.

MR. WILLIAMS :

To the Minister of Crown Lands. Is it true that the bid proposal

submission that was circulated to the various bidders did not mention a

cash bid as being the only acceptable bid?

HON. MR. DIRKS : I'm not sure that it did. What we did accept, though, was a variety of proposals, and we accepted the best possible offer.

MR. WILLIAMS : Can the Premier assure the House that he told nobody that he preferred a cash bid?

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM : I can't say that I wouldn't prefer a cash bid. If it was the best bid, I would much prefer a cash bid. I don't think there's

[ Page 7524 ]

any

question about that. I'm saying that I wanted the best bid for the

people of the province. Given a choice between paper or cash, I'd

prefer the cash.

MR. WILLIAMS : So now the Premier is

indeed saying he preferred cash. The question to the Premier is: did

you advise any private sector people that you favoured an all-cash deal?

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM :

If anyone questioned me as to what we were seeking, the answer would

simply have been as it is today: we are looking for the best deal for

the people of the province. We're seeking as many bids as possible. We

want as many local people to participate as might be done. And

obviously, as I said before, given a choice between paper and cash,

I'll take the cash; but it's the best deal that we're seeking.

[2:15]

MR. WILLIAMS :

If you wade through that, Mr. Speaker, I think what the Premier is

saying is that, yes, he preferred a cash deal, and that's what he's

saying now. The question is: did you talk to somebody, Mr. Premier? And

do you realize that if you said that to anybody, you gave them an

automatic unfair advantage over all the other bidders?

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM :

Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure how many cash offers we did receive, but I do

know that those who made the successful offer were people I certainly

hadn't ever met previously or had any acquaintance with. However, let

me say again: the important thing here is to get the best deal for the

people.

MR. WILLIAMS : What the Premier is saying is

that the people who got the deal are not the ones he talked to about a

cash deal. That's what he's saying. So his memory is somewhat hazy.

view of the kind of explanations we've had today, will the Premier now

table all of the offers that were received by the government?

HON. MX VANDER ZALM :

First of all, Mr. Speaker, I take exception to this member, who

attempts to manipulate at every opportunity that in fact I said what

he's suggesting was said. I don't want him, of all people, putting

words in my mouth. I'm fussy as to what goes into my mouth. Every time

you do, it tastes awful.

Mr. Speaker, I've said it earlier:

I would prefer to see all of the information made available. I

appreciate that as a matter of precedence or custom, the BCEC provided

certain provisions in their tender calls which perhaps made it somewhat

difficult to have all of the information available. Possibly in the

future.... Definitely that is something that we should consider,

because I would prefer it. I don't have any disagreement with having

this information available to the people.

I will say,

however, that we are attempting to resolve that particular question. If

you wish to ask the minister responsible, that's something that he

might answer.

MR. WILLIAMS : To the Premier. It's

your former Minister of Economic Development, the first member for

Vancouver-Little Mountain (Mrs. McCarthy), who started this business of

confidentiality agreements on the Expo lands. It's been carried on with

BCEC and the present minister. I'm sure none of the players care about

the confidentiality agreement; it was required by the Crown. Will you

make these things available? It was you and your government that

insisted on the confidentiality agreement. Will you at least canvass

the 18 people to see if they are more than willing to have it made

public? I'm sure they would be.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM :

Well, I'm never as sure as the member opposite, who appears to be sure

of all things, including what others think or may want to do. I said

before that if you wish to ask the minister how he proposes to deal

with that, it's fine.

MR. WILLIAMS : Could the Minister of Lands advise whether he will making all 18 bids public, as well as all the analyses by his staff?

HON. MR. DIRKS :

Well, I'm really glad that he got around to finding out who was

responsible for this whole thing. It took him a long time to find that

out.

There is a confidentiality agreement in place, and the

opposition was aware of that. They received one of these bid proposal

packages on January 10, for which they didn't have to pay. They never

brought to our attention at that time that there was a problem with

that confidentiality agreement. We are presently seeking a way around

that.

We realize that there is a balance between the

public's need to know and the right to protect the sensitive financial

information that is included in it — the information submitted by the

bidders. We are seeking a way around that, Mr. Speaker. We have gone

back to the various bidders and have requested their approval to

release this information and make it public. I am awaiting replies from

them at the present time.

We do want the public to know.

I'm very proud of the process we went through, and the proposal

packages that went out. It was very public; it was well advertised. The

response was tremendous. The advisory committee that was in place

reviewed these proposals and was chaired by Ed Lien and the

vice-chairman, Victor Lewis. I think they did an excellent job of

reviewing those proposals. The decision to accept Wesbild was based on

very good, thorough financial evaluation, and we accepted the best

possible bid that we could. This is verified not only by the

independent appraiser, whose appraisal we received on March 10, but

it's also verified in the last while by one of the bidders. Triple Five

Corp. stated on the CBC and to the media that the cash value of

Westwood Plateau was somewhere around

[ Page 7525 ]

$25

million. I would much sooner take the word of the value of that

property from somebody like Triple Five, which is in the development

business, than from the member opposite.

ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES

MR. G. HANSON :

A question to the Premier. Last Monday the Premier stated that he had

never reneged on a promise in his life. Can the Premier explain to this

House why his party is not prepared to honour his election promise to

hold the next election on fair and legal boundaries, because government

MLAs this morning refused to accept his appointee's — Judge

Fisher's — report

MR. SPEAKER : Order, please. The hon. member knows he can't ask questions about business that's before the House; it's in the committee.

MR. G. HANSON :

My question, Mr. Speaker, to the Premier is this: is the Premier

prepared to put the next election and the public's money at risk by

running an election on illegal boundaries?

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM :

The whole boundary question is before the committee. I expect that the

committee will be dealing with it carefully, properly and in due time,

giving due consideration also to how people view some of the proposed

changes. I think it is important that people's views be expressed at

these committee meetings and that there ought to be the opportunity for

that.

As you suggested when you first stood on your feet,

if someone wasn't prepared to immediately accept what you propose

because they felt that perhaps the time ought to be there for the views

that are given to us as members of this Legislative Assembly to be

expressed, then I say that I appreciate the stance taken by those who

oppose your attempt to have it done without proper discussion and

without having those views considered. I certainly don't think it was

ever intended that things should be ramrodded through without the

people having their consideration.

It's fine for a member

from Victoria to think he has all the answers, but there are a lot of

people up there in Atlin who are concerned. There are a lot of people

in this north country who happen to have views that may not necessarily

coincide with those of someone from downtown Victoria. They should have

their opportunity too.

Mr. Speaker, while I'm on my feet, perhaps I could present an answer to a question I took on notice yesterday.

Interjections.

MR. SPEAKER :

If the Premier could possibly wait until question period is over.... I

think it's over, so the Premier can answer his question.

LOW-LEVEL MILITARY FLIGHTS

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM :

I took on notice yesterday a question from the member for Atlin (Mr.

Guno) regarding low-level flights over northern B.C. In reply to the

question taken on notice yesterday from the member, I would like to

comment on the authorized low-level flight corridor, which includes

B.C., to accommodate four flight days per year.

I'm

sure

the member recognizes that the authority with regard to national

defence remains the jurisdiction of the federal government. The flight

corridor in question allows Canada to fulfil our NORAD commitments for

the defence of North America. Leading up to the establishment of the

flight corridor, the federal government — under the federal

Environmental Assessment Review Office legislation — undertook a study

that looked at environmental problems and sociological concerns.

MR. LOVICK : You didn't talk to the people.

MR. SPEAKER : Order, please.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM : Are you interested?

Interjections.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM :

If you're interested, please listen. While we naturally have concerns

with the low-level flying, the study is comprehensive enough to

indicate that consultation with affected groups has taken place and

that environmental concerns have been addressed. However, I can also

advise the House that I will be in contact with the Hon. Mary Collins,

Associate Minister of National Defence, to request that any settlements

in proximity to the flight corridor be given advance notice of the

specific days on which test flights will be carried out.

Interjections.

MR. SPEAKER : Order please. Hon. members, could we please have silence.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM :

Yes, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate that, because I thought they wanted to

have an answer when they asked the question yesterday. I can recall the

member for Vancouver-Point Grey appeared quite interested in this,

particularly as it affects the defence of this country and NATO.

Finally,

Mr. Speaker, I would reiterate my position of yesterday: our NORAD

commitments provide a solid example of our participation in the

deterrence effect that is resulting in tangible reductions in the arms

race.

Interjections.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM : You're saying it's okay if it's in the Soviet Union? Is that what the member for Point Grey said?

[ Page 7526 ]

Mr.

Speaker, some of us have had experiences that allow us to believe that

four days a year of unarmed flights is a very small price to pay for

continued peace.

Interjections.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM : You don't mind if it's in the Soviet Union, do you?

MR. SPEAKER : Order, please.

HON. MR. RICHMOND :

On behalf of the Select Standing Committee on Forests and Lands, Mr.

Speaker, I would ask leave for that committee to sit today at 3:45.

Leave granted.

Orders of the Day

The House in Committee of Supply; Mr. Pelton in the chair.

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF EDUCATION

On vote 16: minister’s office, $224,490 (continued).

MS. A. HAGEN :

In the early part of the afternoon we want to canvass two or three

local issues, first of all on the Island in the riding of Nanaimo. My

colleague the first member for Nanaimo will be addressing that matter

to the minister now.

[2:30]

MR. LOVICK :

I see that the Minister of Education is beaming from car to ear,

waiting in breathless anticipation for my remarks. I am delighted to

see that he is indeed that perceptive and knows that this will be good.

wanted to canvass a couple of issues of very specific concern to my

constituency, if I might, with the Minister. I was delighted with the

news in the throne speech that there was going to be a significant

injection of money into the Education portfolio, into that ministry: to

wit, that some $1.5 billion was committed over the next six years to

allow for new school construction. I was very pleased to hear that.

Similarly I was very pleased to hear in the budget speech some further reference to that sum in more specific terms — namely,

that the budget for the Ministry of Education will rise by $253 million

in the next fiscal year to over $2.2 billion, a 12.8 percent increase — and

also to learn that the government has approved a $250 million capital

plan for 1989-90 for schools to meet new space requirements and provide

for upgrading and renovations.

Like most British Columbians — certainly like people in my constituency — I

was delighted with those announcements because, as the minister knows, my constituency

has had a problem of rather rapid growth in the last few years, especially in

the northern end of the community. We have a chronic shortage of space in our

schools.

The

minister has certainly been sensitive to the requests of the community;

indeed, he was kind enough to meet with a delegation from my

constituency last year from our local school board. We talked about

these matters. He certainly is aware of the need for a new school in

the northern part of the riding.

I note that some

announcements have been made quite recently concerning what looks to be

permission, if you will, to go ahead and start building new schools in

the north, to improve upon that situation. That's what I wanted to ask

the minister about. I am wondering if he will clarify for me the exact

meaning of the most recent announcements. I am talking about two

documents, two specific statements — one on May 2 and the other on May 3 of this year —

the first dealing with capital budget for 1989-90, minor projects, and

the second dealing with capital budget for 1989-90, major projects.

What those documents would seem to indicate — especially the second of the two, the one about major projects — is

that we have, indeed, given the funds. The funds are in place for the

planning part, also for the site acquisition for that new school in the

north. What I'd like to know from the minister, if I could, is whether

he can provide me with any more specific information regarding when

that building might begin and when it might be completed, so that we

can deal with the chronic space shortage I alluded to earlier. If the

minister could answer that for me, I would appreciate it.

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

I guess I should preface my comments by saying that we are very pleased

that over the last two years we have been able to get the two-year

spending envelope which has made it possible to assure, when we give

the planning money in the one year, that we in fact have the

construction money, so that we don't create any illusions about people

planning and then not knowing whether we are going to have money in our

envelope for construction.

With that preface, I can tell

the member that there are four planning approvals for the additions,

and time will tell how quickly those come together for Nanaimo. Those

are for — I want to make sure I get the right ones here: an addition to

Georgia Avenue Elementary School, $95,000 plus; a new construction for

Rutherford Community School — planning money of $133,000 plus; for the

new McGirr Road school, $588,000 plus; and for site acquisition, new

elementary, $250,000. We have allowed that much money for Nanaimo. With

or against my better judgment, we have allowed it.

HON. MR. RICHMOND : I move the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

The committee, having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again.

[ Page 7527 ]

ESTATE ADMINISTRATION

AMENDMENT ACT, 1989

Hon. S.D. Smith presented a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor:

a bill intituled Estate Administration Amendment Act, 1989.

HON. S.D. SMITH :

This bill is a matter dealing with the Estate Administration Act. It is

a matter that is going to change the office of the public trustee in

relationship to official administrators and will provide greatly

enhanced service throughout the province.

Bill 33

introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the

day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

HON. MR. RICHMOND : Mr. Speaker, I call Committee of Supply.

The House in Committee of Supply; Mr. Pelton in the chair.

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF EDUCATION

On vote 16: minister's office, $224,490 (continued).

MR. LOVICK :

What a changeable world we live in. I was caught entirely by surprise

by that interruption, Mr. Chairman, suddenly going from committee into

the entire House. However, needless to say we're all very suspicious

now about Bill 33. We wonder what little goodies lurk in that

legislation, so I guarantee we will be searching closely to find out.

Back

to the question. I appreciated the minister's answer, but I wonder if

he would give me a brief clarification. The document I was quoting from

is a memo from the trustees to the executive council regarding major

projects in the capital budget.

I heard in the minister's

answer a figure of some $500,000 that I don't have. I'm wondering if he

would clarify that for me. It isn't in my memo dated May 3, which

refers to four items: planning funds for the Georgia Avenue addition,

planning funds for the Rutherford annex, planning funds for the block

48 secondary school and site acquisition funds. There was another

figure in there that surprised me, Mr. Minister, and I wonder if you'd

share it with me, just so we are sure we're talking about the same

stuff.

HON. MR. BRUMMET : I like to surprise the member once in a while with good news.

Out

of the several hundred projects that we've got on the list, there is

$588,000-plus for the new McGirr Road secondary in the '89-90 budget. I

guess I'd better hedge that a bit, in that maybe that's what we've

budgeted for this year. They know they're going to go to planning

approval in the spring, before the fiscal year ends; perhaps that is

why it hasn't been announced to them. That's what we've allotted in

this year's envelope for planning money. We're assuming that all or

most of this could get started in the following year, but that could be

affected by reprioritization, for instance, if some students show up

somewhere else or don't shown up. But that's what we're planning for

the Nanaimo area.

MR. LOVICK : I must confess that I

don't have much experience with this ministry and its use of different

envelopes. The planning money has been allocated. You said the

$588,000, though, is above and beyond the planning figures quoted:

namely, the $133,364. Again, as I say, Mr. Minister, I don't mean to be

difficult, but I just don't understand why we're using different

figures.

quoted you four items. You gave me another

figure for the McGirr Road secondary school, which is item 3 on the

document I quoted: namely, planning funds for block 48 secondary

school. Block 48 is the McGirr Road secondary. Could you explain to me

— and pardon me if I'm obtuse — the difference between the $588,000 and

the $133,364?

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

Maybe I inadvertently explained it already. Oftentimes there is some

initial pre-planning money for the basic conceptual plan, and then

there is money added for the detailed working drawings plan. I've now

learned that the McGirr Road construction is to go in 1990-91. We may

not have given the school board the detailed planning money yet, but we

have allowed for it in the budget.

I was quoting to you the

total that we have allowed for Nanaimo in the budget. Do you want those

figures again? The four that we have allowed: addition to Georgia

Avenue Elementary, $95,530; new Rutherford elementary, $133,364; new

McGirr Road secondary, $588,322; and we have allowed site acquisition

for a new elementary of $250,000. Quite often we don't like to announce

the amount. We put an estimate in there because if there are still

negotiations going on on the land, once they know what the amount is,

that usually always turns out to be the minimum price. I hope I haven't

let the cat out of the bag on that one, but we have allowed for that.

Those are the figures that we have provided for. The only explanation I

have is that because McGirr Road secondary is slated for construction

next year, and that may be after the fiscal year, then we're allowing

for the planning that's necessary to precede that.

MR. LOVICK :

I'm pleased to inform the minister that he hasn't let the cat out of

the bag. But you have clarified something, because the information I

received from the school board office is incorrect, insofar as it has

transposed two figures. That's why I was having difficulty.

According to the school board, the....

Interjection.

MR. LOVICK :

No, I believe you are correct. The $588,000, according to them, was for

the Rutherford elementary school project, as opposed to the other. So

that's what the confusion was.

[ Page 7528 ]

I think that's all I have for the moment, Mr. Chairman. I thank the minister for the answer.

MS. A. HAGEN :

I note that the minister is in a good frame of mind this afternoon, as

he, I think, knows as I do that we are hoping to conclude our

deliberations on the Education estimates this afternoon.

I want to move now to another local issue.

Interjection.

MS. A. HAGEN :

There was a sotto voce sound across the way, but I didn't hear what the

minister was saying. I'm sure that if he wants me to hear it, he'll

make that comment when he rises.

Parents,

students and the

school board in the district of Qualicum are considering making condoms

available within that school district. I wanted to raise this issue

with the ministry, because I think it has had a good deal of

discussion, and to pose a question to the minister about whether he

supports the right and the responsibility of this community — or

indeed, any other school district community in the province — to deal

with and to approve such a proposal.

[2:45]

HON. MR. BRUMMET : My comment before, when the member said we were going

to finish in a short time, was that I wanted — as she was pushing me for this

morning — a firm commitment or a confirmation of that, which I am unlikely to

get.

Regarding

the issue of putting condom dispensers into the schools, the boards

have the authority to take that initiative. I was asked what my opinion

and view was on it, and I said very clearly that I think the school

boards should stick to dispensing education and not condoms.

MS. A. HAGEN :

This morning we were discussing the human and social development of

children. Indeed, later this afternoon I do want to talk with the

minister more about some of the roles and initiatives that might take

place in the secondary schools. Does the minister agree that the

schools have a very important role to fill at this time around dealing

with presenting issues to young people? Presenting issues to young

people very often has to do with issues relating to their sexuality.

They very often have to do with immature people, people who are

learning about themselves and their relationships with their fellows,

students who very often may be at risk in respect to some of their

actions, because they lack maturity, information and knowledge. Would

the minister agree that it is a very important matter for the schools

to play a role, particularly at this time, in health and family life

and sexuality education for adolescents?

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

I think that it's important, and I thought it was important enough two

and a half years ago, shortly after I was appointed as minister, to get

on with the family life education program which has been operating in

the schools for two years. I would refer the member to that program.

MR. G. JANSSEN :

I'd like to comment and become involved in the debate, as my son

attends the Kwalikum high school. I've had many discussions with him

about his upbringing and sexuality and his friends who go to that

school and other young adults — we can call them students, but I'd like

to refer to them as young adults — who attend the Qualicum district.

Ballenas high school in Parksville has done a survey, and the students

there are in favour.

Comments

attributed to the Health minister, where he has said that the idea is

ridiculous.... I take exception to the Minister of Education's remarks

that his advice to the boards is that they have more important issues

to deal with in education than condom-dispensing machines. I think it

is a school's responsibility to ensure that education take place not

only in the three Rs but also in social upbringing, such as the type of

sexual conduct they will be carrying on throughout the rest of their

lives. I think that can be best established at an early age, among

young adults and adolescents.

I wonder if the minister has

any indication as to the amount of sexual activity there is among

adolescents in that district, including the disease factor and the

incidence of pregnancy in that school district. Is it at a normal

level, is it low or is it high?

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

Mr. Chairman, I don't disagree with the member at all about the

responsibility of schools to provide education about social issues, sex

education, what causes AIDS, what doesn't cause AIDS, and so on. If

he's on such good terms with his son that he feels his son should be

getting paid-for condoms at school, then perhaps maybe some family

responsibility should.... I think the family should be as concerned

about a person getting AIDS, or getting pregnant, and give the

necessary equipment to them. It should not be the schools that dispense

condoms.

MR. G. JANSSEN : I'll pose my question to

the minister again. Is he aware of the amount of sexually transmitted

disease and pregnancy in that school district, and whether or not it is

below or above the norm in British Columbia?

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

No, Mr. Member, I'm not. I took the advice of your colleague this

morning: that we should not be collecting that type of personal

information on students.

MR. G. JANSSEN : The

minister, Mr. Chairman, is also quoted as saying that the Qualicum

School Board should forget it. In that regard, I gather he is following

the advice and the line of his Premier, who said that the decision of

placing condoms in the high school could backfire on the board.

Statements were attributed to the member for that area. The Minister of

Advanced Education (Hon. S. Hagen) said that the

[ Page 7529 ]

school

board should learn to read between the lines. I wonder if the minister

could assure us that his government will not interfere in the decision

made by the school board, which has autonomy in this area.

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

Mr. Chairman, that's the sort of thing that always disturbs me: their

interpretation of why I have an opinion. I came back from a trip

overseas. I did not have an opportunity to meet or talk with the

Premier on this issue. I was asked for my opinion, and I gave my

opinion. That member tries to put on the record that I am presumably

carrying out the Premier's instructions. I'd like to correct that. I

can and do think for myself. I can give an opinion when I'm asked an

opinion.

have already made it clear, had that member been

listening, that I cannot by any legal device stop the school board from

doing whatever they want to do in this respect. If they asked me for my

candid opinion — and I'll back that with some of my views and concerns

I have after 26 years of experience in the school system — I'd say that

I do not think schools should be dispensing condoms.

MR. G. JANSSEN :

I thank the minister for his remarks and his concerns. However, as an

interested parent — and he has already congratulated me for that — I am

simply trying to establish whether or not those remarks were his

personal remarks or the remarks — and direction — of his ministry.

I've spoken with members of the school board — as I live in the area and pay taxes there — and

they have expressed concern to me that if they were to make their

decision, considering the remarks made by members and ministers of the

government, it could have some implications on future decisions that

they may make and negotiations they may have with the school board.

HON. MR. BRUMMET : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I think that's out of order.

MR. G. JANSSEN :

I am simply, as I said, a constituent of that area trying to establish

whether or not the support that the school board may want to offer in

continuing sex education by dispensing condoms, by doing a survey of

the schools, by treating young people such as my son as young adults

and involving them in the democratic process of decision-making — which

I think we should all be encouraging young people to be involved in —

will be met in the future with some negative response from the Ministry

of Education.

They

have concerns. They have expressed their concerns to me when I

questioned them, and I am simply trying to canvass the minister to see

if the remarks made by members of the ministry will in fact have those

implications. I am sorry that the minister is taking this personally.

We should be dealing with his estimates in education. He should not be

dealing with this at a personal level. He should be dealing with it as

a minister of the Crown as it pertains to his ministry.

Can

the minister assure the House that if the Qualicum school board makes a

decision — as it has the right to do if it is in fact autonomous —

there will be no repercussions on behalf of his ministry in the future?

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

Mr. Chairman, that was why I was rising on a point of order before.

That member has the audacity to stand up here and ask for my personal

opinion. I gave that personal opinion, and then he had the audacity to

stand up in this House and say: "Will you assure me that you will not

be vindictive on any other consideration for that district in the

future?" I don't know whether I should dignify that kind of stupid

question with an answer, but I can assure that member that I don't

operate that way, even though he does.

Interjection.

MR. G. JANSSEN : Mr. Chairman, I at no time indicated...

HON. MR. BRUMMET : You did so!

MR. G. JANSSEN :

...or attempted to indicate that the minister should confuse his

personal opinion with that of his ministerial responsibility. I have

spoken to the members of the school board — some of whom I voted for,

and who I believe I have the right as a constituent and as a member of

that community to speak to and find out what their concerns are, and

what direction they are taking.

I have children in that

school, and I was simply trying to canvass the minister to find out

whether or not their concerns are well founded.

I'm sorry

the minister takes them personally; I'm sorry he gets so excited. I'm

simply trying to find out for my personal well-being — and that of my children — whether

or not the fears expressed to me by the school board members that I

spoke to are in fact grounded.... He has answered that question, and I

thank him for that. But I remind him that he should remain calm. We

certainly wouldn't want the minister to overexert himself during these

estimates.

MR. PERRY : Mr. Chairman, I had not

intended to participate in these debates, because my colleagues have

been exploring the issues so comprehensively. But when I hear the

minister's response to the member for Port Alberni, I have to express

my reservations about it.

Mr. Chairman, one of this

morning's newspapers has an

article describing the recent experience of

the United States Army, in which — if I remember correctly — about one

in 600 new recruits into the United States Army are testing positive

for the AIDS virus, HIV. It is now thought that it will become the

major cause of mortality or death in peacetime among young American

soldiers — more than accidents and violence.

[ Page 7530 ]

School

boards in British Columbia are beginning — ahead of more senior

politicians — to try to grapple with the serious life-threatening

infection of HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases.

[3:00]

I think this is a major matter of public policy when the more junior

levels of government, which are perhaps more closely connected to the

real problems or the real aspirations of people, are trying to show

leadership. It is shocking for senior ministers of the Crown of such

influence as the present minister to attempt to influence them in a way

that will discourage them from doing their duty of protecting the

children under their jurisdiction. I think what the member for Port

Alberni was seeking, which I would also seek from the minister, is some

reassurance that when school boards — on the advice of the local

medical officer of health, who has the statutory responsibility to

protect the health of schoolchildren — propose initiatives in the

health field, there will not be arbitrary pronouncements from ministers

of the Crown discouraging them from fulfilling those responsibilities.

MR. R. FRASER :

Mr. Chairman, I can't tell you how astonished I am by the presentations

I've just heard from the second member for Vancouver-Point Grey (Mr.

Perry) and the member for Alberni (Mr. G. Janssen). Isn't it amazing

that they would even think that the minister would have reprisal in

mind if he had a difference of personal opinion with any school board

or any member in the House? It's a funny sort of press-paranoid thought

process that must go on over there, that they can actually think that

way — impugning motives. it's astonishing.

I'm going to

move on from that, and I'm going to talk about some other policies that

the minister has talked about. I like the new teacher education program

funding — that will do great things for the teachers in the province — suggested

by the Sullivan royal commission. I would like to commend the minister

for taking so seriously the report of the Sullivan commission, which

I've said in the past has been somewhat short of the mark, in my

opinion. It was more of an inventory than a forward-looking process and

not as good as the one that was done in Ontario. I think we have to

start moving ahead in education to new ways of getting some more

information to our students more quickly and more effectively. I think

we should start mixing up the education formula with more high-tech

material.

Once again I look to the minister and I say,

"Minister, how very interesting; how forward-looking." We now have the

B.C. Educational Technology Centre which will help teachers become more

technically competent — computer-competent, computer literate. I think

there are actually some wonderful programs here. As I say, the new

teacher education program and the programs to attract teachers to rural

areas and to keep them there, giving them a shot at student loans at

universities and things of that nature, are all positive, all

aggressive, all attractive, and all to motivate the teachers in our

province to become even better than they are now — and they are good now.

That,

of course, brings me back to the remark made by the member for Prince

George North (Mrs. Boone), who got up in this chamber and said that we

should be ashamed of our schools, when our students, in competition

with students across the country, are performing very well, taking

awards way out of proportion to their numbers in the country. That has

to tell you something about how well the teachers are doing, how well

the students are doing, how good the school system is — and constantly improving, with new programs.

The opposition has said from time to time — and I've heard it in the last couple of days — that

school taxes are too high, and then they say the government doesn't

spend enough money. So which is it? They never seem to know, Mr.

Chairman. The taxes are too high; you're not spending enough. How do

they put all that together? How can they possibly suggest that we can

spend money that we don't get in the form of taxes? They want to invent

money in the air. Of course they don't want to do any taxing. They want

to spend even more money. They won't go into new high-tech teaching

methods, and they won't support programs offered by the minister on

behalf of the government for the people of British Columbia. They seem

to hang back — nitpick, nitpick. There's no philosophy there; there's no comprehension there.

The

member for Burnaby North (Mr. Jones), who was the critic last year....

If there ever was a critic who needed help, it was him. Thank goodness

he's over there and not in the schools. I'd much rather have him here

where we can keep him in hand; no question about that.

It's

interesting about the taxation question. They're worried that they

can't tax industry, just residences. Well, there was a reason for doing

that, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to remind those members that the

makeup of towns across the province of British Columbia is variable.

Some towns and communities have industries, and some don't. So if you

want to tax industries and you don't happen to have any, that doesn't

make so much sense, does it? If you have a lot of industry and you want

to tax it, great, you're fine. The system is worked out so that it's

shared community to community; it's taxed by the provincial government

and handed back. That's why it's done that way.

We gave

taxation powers to school boards so that if they wished to enrich an

already rich program, they could add taxes on their homes — industries don't have children, homeowners do — and

put more into the program. Now there are communities out there writing

to the government saying: "Please don't let them have that authority.

Please don't let school boards tax me. Please take away the power you

gave them." I'm suggesting it was a good move to give school boards

that authority. They can go to the homeowners in their communities and

to their parents, aunts, uncles and grandfathers, and say: "You want to

spend more on schools. We've got just the

[ Page 7531 ]

ticket. You give us the money you want us to spend on schools, and we'll spend it."

One

of the things this government has done, even through the restraint

years, which were so hard on so many people.... Education got way more

money than some other ministries did. Of course, they had to make a

contribution in terms of effort. Everybody had to help. Universities

had very small funding reductions. I know something about that.

Industry took brutal beatings in those years. Most of the education

system went.... Yes, they were affected, but not a great deal.

have the Canadian Federation of Students saying that going to

university is a right, not a privilege; that education should be free.

That's a little arrogant.

We do all kinds of wonderful

things in education in this province; we always have and always will.

That minister has done a great job. He is entitled to a personal

opinion, as is the member for Alberni (Mr. G. Janssen). Everybody is,

collectively.

On behalf of the people, that minister is

putting in programs that will make our system terrific. They will bring

a little flexibility. It will be, I suppose, troublesome for some

people to understand why you would want to have a flexible first few

years in school. It will probably be more difficult to manage than just

fixed calendar times, but you know the way the human spirit works, the

mind works and people work. Teachers do adjust from student to student

as much as they can. They have before, they do now and they will in the

future. How can it be any other way?

Make it happen for

those students. If one student's having trouble, that student will

probably get more help. If some student is doing very well, that

student will probably help his or her friends. School is all about

that. Socializing is part of the learning process, and students learn

how to do that in school.

Some teachers are very good in

large classes; some teachers are better in small classes. Some students

have the same feelings. Some would rather be in a big class somewhere

at the back, where they can just work away at their own speed; others

want to be up front in a small class, participating. Everybody has a

different personality. The school system, which looks very rigid, in

fact has more flexibility than we might imagine, because people are

interested, because people care and because people like that minister

do what they can to make it easy for the kids to learn, the teachers to

teach and the system to function.

If the fiscal framework

isn't perfect, I'm not surprised. Nothing is perfect. If it needs

adjusting, the minister will consider it, as will the government. The

education system in B.C. is good because it's constantly being worked

on. That's why it's working, not because that side over there doesn't

know what to say because they can't think of anything nice. Never have

I heard a compliment, yet nothing is all bad.

It's time

some of this debate got onto really meaningful input from that side

over there. It's a funny thing about titles: they're called the loyal

opposition. They presume, then, that they have to oppose everything. I

don't think titles do the job they ought to do sometimes.

have a good system. I'm proud of it, parents are proud of it, the kids

are doing well with it and the government's working hard at it. Keep it

up, Mr. Minister.

HON. MR. BRUMMET : I'll try to respond very briefly to the previous two speakers and then to the member for Vancouver South.

The

member for Alberni asked me not to get excited and not to get upset

when he clearly tried to leave the impression with this House that I

have to promise on a stack of Bibles or somehow that I will not make

decisions about school districts on a vindictive basis. I resent that

very much.

I've just finished with his colleague from

Nanaimo, who got approvals for schools on the basis of the need and the

priority we could establish. No vindictiveness; objective, as much as

we can. I do resent it when members say, "Will you tell me that you've

stopped beating your wife?" or, "Will you tell me that you're not going

to be vindictive in your decision-making?" and then say: "I didn't

imply anything by that. I'm just asking a question." Well, implicit in

that question, as far as I'm concerned, is a slur, and I object to

those kinds of slurs.

The member for Vancouver-Point Grey,

who hits and runs, came in here and made a statement because he wants

to be on the record. I don't know whether he cares as much about the

students as he cares about trying to make some political Brownie

points, because that's about all he stays in here for. Anyway, he came

in here and put on record what is already well known, and then he's

astounded — according to him — that the senior politician doesn't care.

That's a misinterpretation again. I care as much as anybody else. I

think that commitment is evident in the program we put in when the AIDS

problem became an issue. We put that program into the schools as

quickly as it could be put together. Not by me; a group representing

health, social services, public experts, put that program together for

us, and I might say it's a good program, one that has been widely used.

That program deals with education, and I'm committed to education. I

have no problem with education about birth control, about how AIDS is

transmitted and how to prevent it. I have no problem with that at all.

But I do have a problem with the schools then getting into dispensing

birth control pills or condoms, instead of the parents. That's what I

have said. I don't mind that being clearly on the record.

have also said that I don't have the authority, even if I had the

inclination, to tell school boards what they may or may not do. But I

can tell that member time and again.... When a school board makes a

decision that the member doesn't like, or that somebody there doesn't

like, then who do they come to and say: "Please overturn the decision"?

How many parents come to me and say: "Do something about it"? I say to

them: "You elected them. You hold them accountable. You deal with your

school

[ Page 7532 ]

board."

I do that even at times when I find it difficult because of what I

think has happened. But I act according to my principles and according

to the law.

[3:15]

What a treat it was to hear the member for Vancouver South take a

broader look at the education system and the positive things that are

happening out there, instead of getting up and saying: "Well, it may be

a good system and the students may have excelled, but I know one

student who failed." That's the type of approach that the socialists

use repeatedly: there must be a flaw; it doesn't matter how good....

a recent international competition with 13 jurisdictions our students

came in first in science and a close third in mathematics. Just last

year I announced in this House that on a mathematics test across this

country written by 25,000 grade 7 pupils, 15 of our students were in

the top 25, and the top one in Canada. In language arts, in science

programs, in other competitions — the Olympics of the Mind — they have

repeatedly placed well, done well. They do well when they go into

post-secondary out of our school system.

yes, I think we have every reason to be proud. We're proud of what we

have now, and we're very proud of the Sullivan report recommendations

that we're trying to implement, despite the sniping and the attempts to

create fear and paranoia out there in the public when the final answers

aren't in place yet. I'm very proud of our system. I'm very proud of

the things we're doing. We've added computers — the royal commission changes. You can suggest whatever you like.

Local

taxation becomes a big issue. Large majorities of local taxpayers

demanded the right to spend more money in their school districts and to

hold their boards accountable. Now that this hasn't worked, they want

to hold me accountable for electing their board members and their board

members making those decisions. Despite all that, I'm rather torn. The

average homeowner in this province pays $127, after the homeowner

grant, for a quality education system that measures up across this

country. Is that too much to spend on education? Believe it or not,

with the $50 homeowner grant.... Last year it was $137 after the $380

homeowner grant. This year the average is $127 — down $10, despite the

supplementary budgets of school boards. That's the gross amount I'm

talking about. On the shareable amount it would be much less. Even with

school boards that have gone well above the fiscal framework, it's down

$10 this year as a result of the initiative taken by this government

and by this ministry.

I'm proud of what we are doing. I

think we have every reason to be proud in this province. And it does

upset me when members imply vindictiveness, or when an opposition

member in this House says we should be ashamed of our education system.

I can't accept that. I do get a little exercised by that.

MS. A. HAGEN :

I want to make a couple of comments before I move to another subject.

First, I want to acknowledge the minister's acceptance of the right of

the Qualicum district to make its own decisions, and to commend that

board for the process that I understand they have followed in coming to

a decision. It's a difficult topic and a difficult issue for parents. I

think my colleague from Point Grey — who has in fact left to have a

meeting with the Vancouver Persons with AIDS Coalition, and who

expressed his regret that he wasn't able to be here for the

continuation of this debate — is very much aware, as are medical health

officers. It's very consistent with some of the discussions I know the

ministry has had of the close working relationship between the medical

health people and the school district that some fairly significant

discussion and decisions will be taken at the local level. I feel that

the minister's personal comment about forgetting it was one that

perhaps didn't dignify the discussion, but perhaps he was tired after

coming back from Japan, and that's understandable; jet lag coming that

way is really pretty hard on people.

It's interesting, too,

to hear the comments of the member for Vancouver South (Mr. R. Fraser),

who recently told Chinese students that the democracy in this

particular country couldn't accommodate their viewpoints. I remember

him talking to the issue of post-secondary students and suggesting that

they really should take their post-secondary education in their own

hands and not look to the state, or else go out and get a job. To wax

very enthusiastic about our public school system....

That

gives me an opportunity, in fact, to move to my next topic. We've

talked a lot about dual entry and primary education, and I want to talk

now about secondary education.

I want to preface it by the

comment that I believe that in spite of the rapidity with which the

ministry has worked to bring change into the system, the change in the

primary system is going ahead and going ahead well. It's going ahead

because I think the minister is committed to it. It's also going ahead

because there is a fundamental agreement around the ungraded primary

and because of the work that is going on in the districts. There has

been a lot of progress in that regard. The minister is wont to say that

we are all naysayers, but I think if people pay attention to my remarks

made over the last few days, they will know that that's been anything

but the approach that I have taken to the estimates. It's a matter of

accountability and the minister having an opportunity to explain to the

public some of the issues on which he is working on behalf of the

ministry and the people of the province.

The area of secondary schooling I don't think has developed as extensively — certainly in the public's mind — around

the implementation of policies stemming from the royal commission, and

so I would like to take just a few minutes in our discussions this

afternoon to deal with that issue.

I am going to preface my

remarks by what is a personal viewpoint. It's there in the Sullivan

commission, but not as strongly as I might like. It's a point of view

that might be one that we should look at as we look at the whole

secondary system. I happen to

[ Page 7533 ]

believe

very strongly that, in the same way that we are paying a lot of

attention to primary education and the importance of that education in

casting a program, a process and an approach that is very suitable to

the learning modes and needs of children, we really need to look at the

whole secondary system in something of the same manner.

are looking at a system that we would all agree is having a tough time

meeting the needs of students. That is demonstrated by the fact that

students drop out. I think that that's a part of changing times. The

rate at which students are leaving the secondary schools seems to be

increasing. I know the minister has been working hard to try to get a

handle on that and to get some kind of valid picture about what is

happening.

Let's accept that there are a lot of students

who are not graduating in the normal five years of secondary school,

not going right through and finishing grade 12. There are some

assumptions that seem to be made about those students which I really

want to get a handle on. One of the assumptions seems to be that those

students who are leaving the system are somehow students who are not

looking to, not fitted for, not able to benefit from post-secondary

education. As I read what Sullivan has to say and as I listen to some

of the things that the minister has had to say, I am really very

concerned about that.

Mr.

Sullivan said, for instance, on page 92 of his report: "These learners"

— referring to drop-outs, which is the

section in which this quote

occurs — "however,

once shared many of the same goals as those who advance to

post-secondary studies. But they somehow fell behind as they were

streamed into basic or non-academic programs. What then become their

goals? What do we see for their future?" It seems to me that there are

presumptions here that there are some limits on children's potential.

There are some assumptions that a very significant number of students

will not — immediately or at any time in their lives — go on to

post-secondary education, that they may in fact be workers and go right

into work and that they may continue to be workers trained on the job

or whatever might be required.

[Mr. Rogers in the chair.]

this post-industrial information age, I find that perspective and

approach quite troubling. There is practically no area of endeavour in

the work field now for which students will not require some

post-secondary education. That fundamental expectation and recognition

has to be a part of any planning for reform and transformation of the

secondary system.

I've heard the minister get involved in

discussions around this issue and the relevance and appropriateness of

secondary education before. It's my sense that he may indeed have a

similar perspective, that there is a search for relevance and a

recognition of the potential of these students. Let me ask, first of

all: is it the minister's perspective, in planning for the changes in

secondary education, that the majority of students who are not

academically moving towards a university stream — whether they start at college or go directly to university —

are not at some time going to be participating in post-secondary

education? Is it his perception that they are more likely to be trained

through some very minimal vocational training and will go into the

workforce, and that's really their economic future — if you like — and a reflection of what their future is going to be?

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

Mr. Chairman, I'm surprised that the member, who follows all my press

statements so closely right down to one or two words, is not aware of

what I've clearly stated is my position on that. I suspect that she

wants to get her concern for this on the record and see if I might

change my opinions. I might change the words, because I don't follow

the same script all the time, and I don't feel I need to.

The

Sullivan royal commission report happens to coincide very much with my

own views, so I have absolutely no difficulty with it. What the

Sullivan report recommended and what has been translated into a rough

conceptual framework by the ministry through discussions with EPAC and

the steering committee of EPAC with my concurrence — I don't know how

much it matters in this process, but I hope it's a factor — is

that our target is to have all students complete 12 or 13 years of

school, regardless of what direction they intend to go afterwards.

have not said they're not going to get involved in post-secondary

education. I said that some of the students told Mr. Sullivan and his

commission that the present secondary program is fairly well suited to

those who want to go on to university. That doesn't include all

post-secondary education. Their suggestion was that it was not that

well suited for someone who chose another career path. Implicitly, the

secondary school program — with its examinations, which subjects were

examined and what was done — was in effect saying that you prepare for

the university route or you go second-class.

That is not true; I have never accepted it. There are many other careers that are — and should be — alternative

choices. It shouldn't be that if you can't do it here, then you go

there. So I'm quite convinced that all students should get a higher

education. It's also very clear, with the changing technology and the

job changes that students have to face, that they have to be well

educated in these skills to be able to change. That requires more

education.

[3:30]

Mechanics, in this day and age, is no longer pulling wrenches; it is

now having familiarity with computer technology and all sorts of

machines — scanning machines or whatever. It can change within five

years; we can no longer predict. So what we've gone along with, from

our perception, is to prepare students better for whichever direction

they can go. Yes, all educational research and evidence indicates that

the grounding they have in the first few years of school are

fundamental to some of the successes or failures in later years. So

we're trying to reduce the failures and improve the successes. We also

want to

[ Page 7534 ]

make the programs more relevant to secondary students from their perspective — not

the university entrance requirements set by the university, but

relevant from the student's point of view. We are trying to find how to

do that. EPAC has discussed this at considerable length. There is a

steering committee from EPAC that has tried to lay out a conceptual

plan for what type of things might be included in order to do that.

That plan is a long way from implementation. I hope it's not too far,

because some of the things about career preparation and some of the

things that are being suggested are in effect in the schools right now.

It's quite possible.

It's further evidence, I guess, of my

commitment to allowing students to go on to post-secondary education.

As you may recall, our Passport to Education program was castigated

when it was brought forward. Nevertheless, many students have taken

advantage of that program to pay part of their fees in universities,

colleges, technical institutes, whatever post-secondary training they

choose. I think you have my commitment on that. It seems the committee

is moving in concert with what the Sullivan report recommendations have

put before us: let's make it relevant, let's give some credibility to

the other courses that were the instead-of courses in the past.

Those

are the sorts of things that are happening. That doesn't mean we're

going to wait until the grade 1s get to grade 12. There's a lot of work

going on, and the committee has set out a possible time-frame from the

spring of 1989.

"Spring of 1990: draft of the revised primary curriculum

available for response by the field — and draft the necessary technical

materials that go with that. "Fall of 1990: develop provincial information professional

preparation programs and sequential program materials available for optional

use. 1991-92: revise curriculum and assessment materials for sequential program

available for optional use in the schools. 1992-93: optional use of sequential

programs. 1993-94: require ....."

we are in the primary, we're giving it an evolutionary process, with

the involvement of the teacher, the preparation of the teacher, the

involvement of the parents, the preparation of the parents to

understand it, and the opportunity for students to adjust and adapt. It

will all come together — if we ever get together and see how far we can

take it together, instead of seeing if you can undermine it.

MS. A. HAGEN :

Mr. Chairman, you're wont at various times to comment about imputing

motives. I do find it distressing that whenever I ask a question, the

minister imputes a motive. I find that's not consistent with my

approach to the estimates. I would appreciate it if we could simply

address the issues that I'm attempting to raise.

want to thank the minister for his comments. It's a very difficult area

in which to institute change. If we are ever looking at an area where

there's a whole range of needs of young people, it's certainly at that

secondary level. I would hope that one of the things that might happen

— indeed, as the minister and his staff and advisory people examine

what may happen — is

that they look at the junior secondary years as very significant years

in the whole success pattern of children as they go through that

system. I think the focus has been primarily on what happens when

students get to grades 11 and 12. Although I don't have a very good

handle, looking at the information that's available, on where the

drop-out rate is greatest, it appears that it's in that grade 10 and 11

period, with a lot of it still happening in grade 12.

The

minister and Mr. Sullivan have proposed that there be a number of

tracks that students can take. I concur entirely that those tracks

should be of equal value, and they should be tracks that can interweave

with one another, that there are a number of ways that young people can

in fact stay involved with learning. Not all of this is going to happen

perhaps within the four walls of the school. I think it would be good

if a good deal of it happened outside the four walls of the school. By

the time young people are 16, 17 and 18, it's time for them to be

experiencing things that are not necessarily as institutionalized as a

secondary school sometimes is. I think our schools have done a good

deal to try to open the doors through career education.

There's

been a fair amount of discussion about cooperation with business and

industry and entering into some kind of working relationships with

business and industry. I'm interested that it's business and industry

and not the community at large, not non-profit societies, hospitals and

so on. Perhaps the minister can give us some idea of what kinds of new

programs are being considered as a means of encouraging people to stay

within the school system and what kinds of working arrangements would

be in place for that to happen.

As I'm sure the minister

knows, there is considerable concern that the public education system

as we know it may be significantly changed in terms of policy and

accountability and delivery of service if we move to what we might call

the private training school model and so on. There are legitimate

questions about that issue. I think it's a good opportunity for the

minister to provide us with some view of what is going to happen to

students who want to be hairdressers, journalists or bank clerks and

decide that they don't want to stay in school; they're interested in

that kind of career. What would be a pattern of the last couple of

years of such a student's school activity? I know the minister has

outlined, and I am aware of, the common curriculum, the areas where the

student will have to show proficiency in order to graduate. What would

be the working arrangements with business and industry, with other

sectors of the community, I would hope, and what would be the role of

the school in that regard? What would be the role as the public

institution responsible for high school graduation with some diversity

in the way in which a student may be able to achieve that certificate

and that status?

HON. MR. BRUMMET : Once again, Mr. Chairman, we have put aside money in the implementation process for curriculum development, assessment

[ Page 7535 ]

evaluation, teacher upgrading and teacher retraining for a variety of the things that will have to happen.

So far what the committee has worked out — and it is reflected in the policy documents that we have put out — is

that we should target for all students to go through school in one

stream, but in the final years you give them more options so that they

can prepare for a variety of different things with the same credibility

as they have been preparing for university. Conceptually, that's it.

Exactly what courses and how much of it they'll take in school or out

of school has not been worked out. It will be worked out in and through

a consultative and evolutionary process.

I can't answer the

question of how much of it is going to be and who's going to pay for it

until we know what's going to happen. We are trying to make every

allowance for it, recognizing that we might, say, set aside X million

dollars for career preparation as we know it now. By the time the

committee works it through, it may be part of graduation rather than

career preparation. It just may be a factor in graduation — which it is

now, in a sense, so in that way it won't change that much conceptually.

If we set aside X number of million we don't know whether that million

will have to shift, move, or whatever. So I can't answer those kinds of

questions of who's going to pay for what.

We are following

the concept that primarily every student in British Columbia is

entitled to a free education up to grade 12 graduation — up to the age of 19, which is the generally accepted school age — to

the extent possible, but also recognizing the fact that right now in

the school system there are some fees for extras they take that might

be optional. I would like to think that nothing that is required of the

student — no course that is required — will require a fee. I know how

the system operates. If, say, the student in career preparation decides

to build a coffee table, it is not uncommon for the school to charge

for the wood that they use, but they don't charge them a fee for the

course. It isn't entirely free now, but we're still working on the

basic concept that everybody is entitled to an education to graduation,

and after that with assistance.

MS. A. HAGEN : I'll

try two more questions. The minister is really not giving very much

information to me or, through this debate, anyone else.

Mr.

Minister, is there any consideration that the private training school

model, which exists with the post-secondary schools — where

there is a school that is licensed, it offers secretarial training,

training to be involved in financial institutions, a whole range of

career-related opportunities — could be available to secondary school

students and under similar terms as are available with the

post-secondary system, where students who enroll in those institutions

are eligible for student loans? The model might be with the public

school that there would be school dollars available for the tuition of

the student. Is there any consideration of that model of a private

training institution supported by public tax dollars in order to

provide a student with a career-training opportunity that would be part

of the particular student's high school graduation requirements?

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

Consideration has been given to all of these notions, but no decision

has been made to include that particular model, nor has a decision been

made to exclude it. Therefore no decision has been made as to who pays

for what portion of it.

I go back to the basic principle of

whether it's a required part of their course and graduation. How do I

know what the system is going to suggest or recommend four years down

the road as to who pays for what portion of it? All I can say is that

we're sticking with the basic principle of a free public school

education to grade 12 graduation, but it doesn't mean that a private

school couldn't be used if it makes the best sense. It doesn't mean

that a school board couldn't.... Instead of trying to set up a

hairdressing course for two people who want to go, maybe they can teach

some of the academic, the chemistry and biology in the school and pay

the hairdresser for some hands-on training. You can't count on

volunteers if you're going to make it a part of your program.

I'm

just saying this is a possibility. I hope you don't go out and say I've

suggested that this be done. I don't know whether it will become a

reality or be discarded as the process goes on.

[3:45]

MS. A. HAGEN :

It seems to me that one of the things the public needs to have some

knowledge of for a system that's in a state of flux is the thrust. I

think the public's thrust in respect to public education is that this

education comes under local school boards and is publicly accountable,

regardless of the models — thinking there might be various models — that

might be in place. Perhaps the minister could advise us whether the

school district will in fact continue to be the body responsible for

the education of children through to grade 12, to the end of their

graduating year.

HON. MR. BRUMMET : The school boards

do have the prime responsibility to provide students in their districts

with an educational program that suits their purposes. I don't think

that means they must be tied to a particular desk fixed to the floor in

that school. If the boards find a better way to do it, then I'm not

going to say I'll preclude that kind of option right now. The public

school system remains our main education system, as Mr. Sullivan has

indicated. This government has accepted the position that if students

choose an alternate education route, they may do so. The public school

system remains paramount.

MS. A. HAGEN : I spent a

lot of time this morning talking about accountability and assessment,

and I think what I'm really getting at is: who's going to be

accountable for the system? I note that the present system with the

private institutes' training program,

[ Page 7536 ]

and

with public dollars available to them, is singularly unaccountable. I

would certainly not like to see that kind of system spreading to a

broader range of students. This is not to say that a lot of those

schools don't do a good job, but there is no accountability within the

system for those institutes. There are public dollars, and some of

those public dollars are indeed being misused. The people who are

suffering are the students who assume that a quality of education is

available to them in those institutes. There's no guarantee at all that

the quality is there, because there is no accountability.

Let

me raise one final question in relation to this whole secondary school

matter. Mr. Sullivan emphasized and made a strong commitment to the

concept of life-long learning. It's my view that he saw the local

school as one of the available resources for a student all through his

or her life. One of the things I find in my own district is that our

local school district community education program is working with a

very significant number of people who have been — to use the name we give to them — school

dropouts, people who have not graduated. They've brought them back into

the school system for academic and career-related and upgrading

activities under the aegis of the Ministry of Education.

it your intent, Mr. Minister, to act on the recommendation of Mr.

Sullivan on page 109: "That the Ministry of Education, school

districts, and schools, in planning...educational programs, incorporate

the concept of lifelong learning and...cater to the widest range of

learner interests" within the public school system? Is that indeed a

significant part of the thinking and the planning that's going on?

Although I've made a commitment to the minister that I won't say a word

about the School Act until it's tabled in this House, might we

anticipate that the kind of philosophical and policy agenda the

minister may have been addressing would be reflected then in the

legislation that will be coming forward? Or if he wants to stay with

policy, I'm happy to hear his observations just to that point at this

time.

MR. CHAIRMAN : If the members are trying to enforce order, then the Chair doesn't have to. Please proceed, Mr. Minister.

HON. MR. BRUMMET : We'll do our best to keep the Chairman on track.

You

say that they should not be allowed to take any programs or courses at

private institutions because they're not accountable. I guess I'm a bit

more open-minded on that one, and I would think that a school board

that is going to pay money to some other institute to provide a course

for a student.... I would give them the credit that they would see that

it's accountable before they recognize it for credit or for payment of

the bill. I guess the member is somehow saying we're going to take them

out of school and send them over to a private institution. But it will

be a coordinated effort if it happens. I don't have any problem with

that one, because I have the faith that the school trustees are hardly

going to pay somebody for doing a job that they have no.... I mentioned

the hairdresser analogy. They're hardly going to send a student to get

hairdresser training from somebody who is not a qualified hairdresser

or without assurance that they're going to get some training.

for lifelong learning, the Sullivan report recommended what to some

extent we were already into. Many adults have been able to come back

for grade 12 equivalency courses. Two years ago we made the policy that

if they are attending school, regardless of their age, we could allow

them to be counted as full-time equivalents in the funding formula, and

if they are only taking a partial course, they could be counted as

one-eighth or two-eighths or whatever — eight being the standard

number of courses a person takes for full-time equivalency.

other words, we are committed to lifelong learning. We hope the program

we've put into place, the relevancy to students, will develop a greater

love for learning, a greater curiosity, a greater desire for continuing

learning and a recognition that learning does not stop when you walk

out of the classroom in June but goes on and on. Since people can now

return to schools, we fully expect, and have so expressed in our policy

statement, that we're going to try to make the legislation fit so that

people can come back to school. The only question that will come up

somewhere along the line is who funds them, Advanced Education or us.

It's not, to me, a big issue. It's the same government, so all we have

to do is get together and work out the protocol.

MR. G. JANSSEN :

I'd like to preface my remarks by saying to the minister that in our

discussion earlier there was no intention on my part to indicate that

he was in any way vindictive. It was simply to give him an opportunity

to clarify some of the remarks attributed to him and other members of

his side of the House and to relieve some of the anxiety that is felt

by me and members in the community in which I live and the school my

son goes to.

I'd like to canvass the minister on Alberni

District high school, which, as he is probably aware, has some 1,400

students and was due for a renovation of between $10 million and $12

million. An architect was called in, because the school is desperately

in need of work. It was built many years ago, in the late forties or

early fifties.

I've got a small office in this Legislature

here, and the office of the principal of that school is even smaller.

In fact, when he's trying to conduct his business and run the school,

he has people trucking through his office with various documents and so

forth. He doesn't have room in that office to put in the computer and

various electronic hardware that is now commonplace in other schools.

The library is located in an old crafts workshop — one

that I attended. The crafts have now been moved out. The bearing walls

were removed. It's considered unsafe in the case of even a minor

earthquake.

When the school buses are unloaded, students have to climb stairs at the back of the school which

[ Page 7537 ]

are

narrow and weren't intended for that purpose. The band must now pack

their instruments up every time they move in and out of the auditorium,

which they use for practice. They have to pack those instruments down

hallways and through various rooms in order to store them.

The

science room is completely inadequate. Storage is inadequate. Great

strides have been made in science, and, as the minister indicated

earlier, students from British Columbia excel in the sciences far above

other students in Canada. But the teaching facilities in Alberni

District high school remain in the category of the 1950s,

whereas we're

trying to teach technologies of the 1980s.

It's felt in

Alberni that they had done their homework. They had called in the

architects and made appropriate recommendations on the space

requirements, modernizing the school and implementing the mechanics of

the school: the washrooms, heating systems, insulation and so forth.

They felt that they would be considered for funding this year. They

were rather surprised to find out that greater priority had been given

to other schools which had not, in their opinion, submitted as much

information and were not as prepared to go ahead with the project as

Alberni District high school was. I wonder if the minister could

apprise me, firstly, why the decision was made not to go ahead with the

reconstruction of that school at that period of time, and when the

Alberni School District could expect to be able to go ahead with that

much-needed project.

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

I can tell

the member that they are on the high-priority list. Generally when the

proposal comes forward about renovations or building new schools, there

is some investigation done — and thank goodness there is — as to

whether it warrants spending a lot of money on it or building a new

facility. So there are some studies that go on.

When

those studies come in, we have to place them somewhere on the list.

Let's say it's on the high-priority list. For instance, I can tell you

that this year we were given $250 million, and just the absolute high

priorities for this year were $370 million. What we have to do then is

go back and reprioritize. The first priority generally is whether there

is a significant safety factor. The next priority, which gets into the

bigger money, generally is whether they have space for those students

now.

Then we move down into renovations and fixing up. We

are behind, and that's one of the reasons we have made a six-year

commitment of $250 million a year. They are on the high-priority list.

I guess the reprioritizing will determine at what point they come in

this year. At this point in time, we have given them, I think,

three-quarters of a million dollars under minor capital.

On my brief list it says "roof replacement" — and I don't know whether it is on that school or whether it's on another one — and

"buses." So they have some money to work with in the operating budget.

Those are usually minor amounts, so I am not going to make a big issue

of it. Next year we will be putting again into minor and major, so at

this point I am not sure whether we should spend a lot of money to fix

that school up and how long it would last, or whether it should be a

replacement. Those are the considerations that we have to make from

time to time.

I am sorry I can't give more than telling you

they are on the high-priority list, which puts them in these five

years. Where we can slot them in the five years will depend on whether

or not enrolment increases keep coming or whether they slacken off

somewhere. In other words, the priority will always be a roof where

they didn't have one before fixing up what is.

The other

thing is that we have changed the space criteria to accommodate the

computer rooms and many of the things that have come into the education

program since, and so the space requirements — discretionary space and that sort of thing — are

more generous now. Many of the schools don't fit the new space

criteria, and as we get around to fixing them or doing a major

renovation or building a new school, it will be under the new space

criteria.

If it is a minor renovation and it will make it adequate for some time, we do the best we can to build in new space criteria.

MR. G. JANSSEN :

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I am sure we will continue to press the

ministry and meet with them to make sure that we either renovate that

school or, if we are fortunate enough, build a new facility that will

be much more modern and serve the needs of the community much better.

[4:00]

One other small item that's been on the agenda of the Alberni School

Board for some time is the small Bamfield school, which has been on

hold for some time. I recognize that only 50 students attend that small

facility, but if you are familiar with Bamfield at all, you will know

the school is located on the wrong side of the inlet. If the minister

has followed my comments in the House on the Highways estimates, he

will know there has been a 26-year attempt to have a road built to the

other side of the inlet, which has not taken place yet. The students

have to go back and forth across the inlet to attend that school. With

the inclement weather that is usually in effect in Bamfield in the

wintertime, it makes it a real hardship. The building is very old. Most

of the students who attend that building are native students from the

Ohiaht reserve at Pacheena. Garbage and supplies have to be taken back

and forth across the inlet by boat.

There is a great

difficulty in maintaining staff there. There is a shortage of housing

for the teachers they are able to bring into that area. None of them

stay very long because of the isolation. I realize this is also a

problem in other communities, but in Bamfield it seems particularly

acute. There is virtually no available housing in Bamfield for anybody

to rent, much less schoolteachers.

The building was

rat-infested at one time. There is a continual problem with rats that

run up and down the beach. It's a small amount for a small problem that

could be easily alleviated. However, it seems that

[ Page 7538 ]

the

Bamfield school remains on hold, and I wonder if the minister could

find it in his budget this year to make some movement on building a new

facility in that small community.

They don't ask for much.

Most of the people accept the isolation there, accept the fact that

they have to travel two hours over a dirt road to get to and from

there, accept that there are no garbage facilities, no water, no sewer.

Asking for a decent facility for their students to go to school in

seems to be a small request.

HON. MR. BRUMMET : I

thank the member. I share his concern about some of the small, isolated

schools. I was in the Alberni district two or three times. I haven't

visited the Bamfield school, because I couldn't drive in — and we're not getting into construction of roads in my ministry — and

I didn't have time to go by boat. So I haven't seen it, unfortunately,

but I have seen many other parallel situations. All I can say is that

if the board puts together their case.... For instance, there were

three over and above the three-quarters of a million that I mentioned

to the member. In the minor capital, some $332,000 was put into their

budget for shareable capital. Was it shareable or non-shareable?

Shareable in other words, they could direct some of the money there.

We'll give them all the assistance we can to make those educational

opportunities for the students in Bamfield as good as we possibly can.

far as teacher accommodation is concerned, we don't provide that under

the school operating or capital budgets, but there is a program, the

School District Housing Act, which allows school boards, on a

full-recovery basis for rent and that, to ask for approval to actually

build housing, mortgage it in the normal way, and all they have to do

is put the package together. Whether they are interested or whether the

costs would be prohibitive in terms of rent, I don't know. In other

words, we don't, through our operating or capital budget, provide free

housing for teachers; but boards have a way to do it if it is a

priority. We'll assist them in any way we can. All they have to do is

discuss it with me or the ministry.

I can't meet with every

one of the 75 boards who all feel that their school.... Everybody's got

an older school in their district, and I can't possibly meet with all

of them, but certainly my staff is aware and has the mandate to check

with them, to go out and look at the buildings, and some of the staff,

I know, have been there.

MS. A. HAGEN : I want to

move to another topic now, one that I've discussed with the minister

before I'm sorry that my colleague the first member for Vancouver-Point

Grey (Ms. Marzari) is not able to be in the House today. She is ill.

She and I had planned to share this discussion with the minister.

One

of the matters that Mr. Sullivan dealt with and that all of us have to

be concerned with is the question of gender equity within our school

system. My colleague from Alberni and I were chatting, and we happened

to use the example of a hairdresser. As I sat back and thought about

that, I thought that it's just not the kind of example we should be

using these days; we should instead be using the kinds of examples that

my friend Marcia Braundy, who has done a lot of work in the province on

women in trades and technology.... We should be using the perspective

that she's coming from: that women will, in fact, be very much involved

as teachers and as workers in trades and technology, which is the area

of coming jobs. Service jobs are going to be there, but it's a bit like

that comment of Mr. Sullivan's, that we tend to perpetuate the concept

that people will choose certain jobs, and there is a perception that

those jobs will be held by women.

It seems to me that one

of the tasks is to work with very significant goals for change. The

policy statements of the minister and the policy directions to which he

has referred frequently over the last day or so really don't suggest

much in the way of action; they suggest a lot in the way of monitoring

how the system will work. The minister will place emphasis on enhancing

student awareness, will provide information, will monitor how many

people there are in the system. We need to move beyond that to some

very definite action plans.

I think there are action plans,

too, that have to reflect a changing view of the system, a system that

is more feminine and female in its nature and orientation. Very often

we tend to find that our education system reflects, just by virtue of

the people in positions of authority and responsibility, a male

perspective. If we look at who our principals and vice-principals are,

even after years of some attention to this, something like 15 percent

are women. When I was going to school as a young person, which happened

to be during the war, there were more women principals than there are

today. We've regressed rather than progressed. I recognize that I have

had more experience than some people in the House, but I'm sure the

minister and I share some time-frames in our early schooling and the

role of women at that time.

want to ask the minister some fairly specific questions about what his

action plans may be — not

plans that talk about monitoring, providing information and

encouraging. I note that Ontario has provided some incentives for the

improvement in numbers of women in positions of senior responsibility —

just to mention one province that has translated goals into some very

definite action plans.

First

of all, I'm sure the minister is going to be happy to announce that

there is a woman assistant deputy minister or associate deputy minister

who, I understand, has recently been appointed to his ministry. Perhaps

he could advise us if there are any changes or improvements since last

year in the number of women who hold positions of special

responsibility — ADMs, executive directors or directors — within his

own ministry.

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

I was looking at it from the perspective that we have selected and

appointed a superintendent who was doing a great job, and who

[ Page 7539 ]

felt could do a great job in helping us in the field to implement the

royal commission report. I was thinking of it as a superintendent, not

because she was a woman, but because she was well qualified and well

suited to the position. I don't know; I don't keep track of who each

position is filled by. I know that in the ministry the policy is that

we do not turn away women because they are women; we generally hire on

the basis of qualifications.

There are quite a few women in

the ministry operating in various capacities. I'm sorry, I don't know

all of their titles, but when I have meetings with other than the staff

I'm surrounded with here at the moment, there are women at these

meetings. They are in directors' positions in our ministry.

It's

strange how an off-the-cuff reference to a job can suddenly be used

against you. Hairdresser: I don't think I said female or male, did I? I

think there are hairdressers who are male as well as female. I could

just as easily have said someone who wants to be a truck driver. That

is no longer the exclusive preserve of males — not in my mind. I've

seen women truck drivers; I've seen men truck drivers. I don't know,

there may be more of one or the other. I don't see anything

gender-based in the hairdresser example I used. Maybe I'm not that

focused on it.

The member said something about there being absolutely no.... We've got a policy statement and no indication of action — just

monitoring. One of things we're monitoring.... Boards make the

appointments, and we're working with boards, and we try to suggest that

in our

section on gender equity and in our policy directions that we

put out. I'm sure the member has read them. I generally hate to waste

the time of this House. But when something is clearly in there, and the

member says there's nothing in there, then I feel an obligation to

point it out: "Action: Ensure that new health and guidance programs

include information about nontraditional work options for women and

men. Host summer institutes for counsellors to provide information

about opportunities for females." That's actually hosting summer

conferences. "Encourage school boards to improve ratio of female

students to female counsellors. Create resource packages to emphasize

the role of careers in women's lives." That's not to think about or

discuss. "Review existing authorized and prescribed learning materials

for bias and for opportunities for enhancement of awareness of gender

issues."

That process has started. As we revise textbooks,

we'll be doing it. In No. 2 under the major heading "Increased

Management Opportunities for Women," it says: "Encourage school

districts and government to provide support to potential managers.

Review hiring practices to ensure removal of systemic barriers, sex

stereotyping, traditional male bias. Provide bursaries for upgrading

leadership skills...." That sounds to me like definite and concrete

action. "Provide bursaries for upgrading leadership skills of females

in education. Ensure equal access to leadership and growth

opportunities. Establish flexible working conditions" — in order to

take away some of the barriers that prevent women from continuing as

men do; for instance, flexible working conditions for women who might

be away to have children, so family responsibilities can be shared and

managed. "Increase accountability." I think we're moving a long way in

that direction. We're doing the best we can, but not dropping all

requirements for experienced qualifications.

[4:15]

MS. A. HAGEN :

It is interesting, the different documents from which we can read. If

one looks at the actual formal policy directions of January 27

published by the ministry, the information provided is not as specific

as in the other document that I think the minister read from. It's

called "School Act and Provincial Education Advisory Council." I

understand that those are the recommendations that come from the

advisory council to the minister. I certainly think there are, within

those recommendations, some very concrete suggestions about actions

that the minister might take; but to my knowledge, this is not a widely

public document. In fact, it's not even dated. The one I have simply

says: "Attachment to." I understand it's the summation of the decisions

that were taken.

Has the minister in any way considered

providing any affirmative action plans or programs that would encourage

local school districts to increase the number of women in positions of

senior responsibility?

HON. MR. BRUMMET : In January

we put out a

summary, and we've been adding details all the time. I

thought that package had gone out in January as well, but I guess the

one booklet that we put out — the policy directions — was a condensed

version. If the member wants to say we've never put out a complete

picture of all the things that are going to happen, I'll agree that we

haven't, because we are still completing it. We say the conceptual

outline, and then we try to fill in the parts. But we don't try to fill

them in ourselves. We get the conceptual outline through the

consultation process; then we go back into the consultation process and

say: "Okay, let's flesh out what gives meaning to these." I'm sure that

the ones I read to you will be fleshed out further as the process

evolves — in other words, exactly what terms.

MR. R. FRASER :

If I heard correctly, the member from New Westminster asked if the

minister was going to influence school boards into putting women into

positions of responsibility.

MS. A. HAGEN : No, I didn't say that.

MR. R. FRASER : In that case, I'll read the Blues or listen to you again.

MS. A. HAGEN :

My question, Mr. Chairman, was whether the minister was considering

incentives that would encourage school districts to have more

[ Page 7540 ]

women in positions of responsibility — more women in administration.

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

I guess it's simply what connotation you place on incentives. There are

a lot of incentives that I read: seminars, regional seminars with

Advanced Education, helping people to attend those seminars. I think I

pointed out some of the materials we would be preparing, encouraging

boards to do the type of thing that will avoid.... If by incentives you

mean paying them twice as much to put a woman in the position as to put

a man, qualifications being equal, I would have to give that some

serious thought.

MR. R. FRASER : I did hear correctly

the member suggesting that the minister should influence school boards

into putting women into positions of responsibility. If you want

incentives, extra money, all that kind of activity, that's influence — pushing

a board to make a decision, which a minute ago the minister said he

couldn't do when your colleague from Alberni said: "Will the minister

promise not to influence the board?" That's why you're never going to

be government. That's why the NDP is never going to make it. They never

know what they want. One member says, "Don't influence the board"; the

next member says, "Do influence the board," suggesting that I was

making some horrible mistake when some time ago I said students should

take some responsibility for their lives. Why not? They've got to start

sometime. Most of them want to take responsibility for lots of stuff,

like driving the family car or their own motorcycle. They're trying to

be adults. Yes, they should take more responsibility. I happen to

support that idea.

And one more thing, Madam Member: don't put words in my mouth. I'll

do it myself.

MS. A. HAGEN : Although we are not discussing that member's words, I'm sure his defence will be noted and observed in relation to his words.

the minister: the minister then doesn't see that the systemic situation

we have, with a very disparate representation of women in the field of

administration, is something he would want to take action on in terms

of some kind of affirmative action plan. I understand that he's saying

they're prepared to provide some kind of assistance for people to take

leadership training, but that he doesn't see an affirmative action plan

in this area as something that would be within his purview or policy

initiatives.

HON. MR. BRUMMET : Mr. Chairman, I'm

starting to feel like a yo-yo. Maybe the person on the other side likes

the up-and-down effect, but I can get my exercise in some other form. I

would recommend that perhaps the member put a few questions together so

that we can get on with my estimates rather than my exercise program.

Perhaps

the member might not try to translate what the minister thinks; maybe

she should stick to what the minister says. I had read to her: "Review

hiring practices to ensure removal of systemic barriers, sex

stereotyping, traditional male bias." I read that, and then you got up

and said: "I take it that the minister does not concern himself with

systemic barriers." Yes, I do, and we're trying the best we can.

MS. A. HAGEN :

Let me save the minister some of his yo-yo response. I find that it's

actually good to get up and stretch when we're in the House for a long

time, but let me ask him three questions.

Interjections.

MS. A. HAGEN : We're getting there, Mr. Minister; we're not too far off schedule, so be patient.

Could

you give us some indication of whether there is a textbook review going

on at this time with a view to eliminating inappropriate gender

stereotypes, and especially whether there's content being considered

and included in textbooks that deals with women in the context of our

cultural and intellectual heritage in Canada?

Two other

questions regarding specific funding and curriculum development. There

have been some excellent programs funded by the federal government, I

understand, and targeted to young women students: Scientists in the

Schools and summer science workshops for girls, organized by the

Society for Canadian Women in Science and Technology. Has the minister

given any consideration to funding such programs, which, particularly

in the summer, provide opportunities for young women to move into what

we unfortunately still call non-traditional areas of participation?

Finally,

in that same curriculum development area there was a good deal of work

done by home economics educators in British Columbia last year. An

information bulletin that came from your ministry, I think, towards the

end of 1988 set up the fall of '89 as the time to determine the

direction and magnitude of change in the area of home economics. There

were particular recommendations that home economics should be

compulsory for all students at some level in the junior secondary

grades; that the courses should be redesigned to appeal to both boys

and girls; and that home economics courses should very much look at

issues of paid and unpaid work in the family and at the relationship

that that work, most traditionally still done by women, has to their

value in our economy, so that young women have some opportunity to view

the varying work that they will traditionally do as mothers in the

context of its value to the economy and to put that in the perspective

of paid work. Could you give us some advice about what is happening in

that area?

HON. MR. BRUMMET : Mr. Chairman, I feel a

little better getting up to answer three questions at a time. Textbook

review to remove sex stereotyping or gender bias has been ongoing for a

number years and will intensify. As we are adjusting and adapting the

curriculum to deal with new approaches in education, of course it will

all be screened for that. We

[ Page 7541 ]

haven't

thrown out every book that was published ten or 15 years ago, but we're

certainly screening them very carefully as new ones come out and trying

to remove it.

As for science programs the federal

government is into, that's a post-secondary initiative. We're very

interested in it because it affects our students, but the types of jobs

you're talking about seem to be more applicable to post-secondary.

for home economics, I guess some work was started on that. In the

Sullivan report we now have practical arts as part of the core

curriculum, which could include all of the subjects. That will be

reviewed as we review the total secondary school curriculum. It hasn't

been tossed out; it is just going to become part of the package for

study.

I might point out to the members, since once in a

while I like to digress into some personal experiences, that before I

picked up this job in 1979, and a few years before that, I managed to

arrange the timetable in my junior secondary school so that every boy

or girl in the school took home economics — foods, cooking or sewing — metalwork

and woodwork, the four courses available in the school. All the grade 8

students took them, and we found that in grades 9 and 10, where it was

voluntary, they chose at will. I was there a few years ago.

MR. CASHORE :

I would like to spend a little time now talking about computers in

schools in the context of what appears to be a disturbing trend in the

gender difference in the use of computers, which is reflected not only

in schools but in life beyond the school in the various fields that

people go into after they leave the school system.

This is

a trend that I don't raise so much as a critique of the ministry,

because it is a North American trend. Some of the information I'm going

to refer to reflects American research and some of it Canadian

research. It's the type of issue that we have to put our minds to

together, because when we consider the use of the computer and the way

it is used by people in our society, if there is an imbalance, the

computer, being such a powerful instrument, can exacerbate the gender

differences that we want to be able to address.

There was an

article in the Vancouver Sun

on February 20, 1989, entitled "Why Boys Lead Girls in the Computer

Race." It mentions that social scientists say that there are

differences that lead to disparities in the limits on how far women can

go in the computer business and that lack of computer skill has become

a significant barrier to success. It points out that, given that

computers are relatively new in our schools and are readily accessible

to most people in our society, it was hoped that this might be one

field where we would be able to move along with a very balanced usage

between males and females, but apparently that has not been the case.

[4:30]

Educators and computer scientists say that it appears that women are losing

many of the gains that have been previously made, and there's a UBC computer

scientist, Richard Rosenberg, who says it's just one of the various ways

in which girls are not encouraged the way boys are. I don't believe he means

that quote to be a reference entirely to the school system; I think he's

using it as a reference to the way we socialize within our homes. But certainly

it's reflected in the schools. He also says that women clearly do want to

have the ability to make effective use of computers.

1988, 84 percent of students enrolled at UBC computer science courses

were male, and most of those students came out of our school system. He

also said that before — and after-school use of computers — this would

be the students who go to the computer room following the school day

and the ones who go there earlier — is

dominated by boys and that a 1984 study by Harvard University found

that three out of four children enrolled at computer camps were male. A

Stanford University study found that among grade 5 to 8 students from

middle- and upper-income families, boys are more than three times as

likely as girls to use a computer in the home.

Just one

further piece of information. Women's principal involvement with

computers apparently consists of painstaking but routine tasks like

word processing and data entry,

whereas males tend to be more involved

in the sophisticated aspects of computer usage. Much of this research

also points out that there is a socialized behaviour in society whereby

males tend to be more into math, and there seems to be a relationship

between that and the fact that this is sort of an entry into the use of

computers.

I would like to ask the minister to comment on

the use of computers in schools in British Columbia and to hear his

comments on how we might be working to address the data that indicates

there is a gender discrepancy in the use of this equipment, which is

reflected later on in the way that the boys and girls who graduate from

our schools take

part in the use of computers in the workplace and

their homes.

HON. MR. BRUMMET : I have to comment

very briefly to the question at the end, where the member said: "What

about the use of computers in the schools?" We don't distinguish. We're

getting more computers into the schools. All students, regardless of

gender, are taking computer training. They're using the computer as a

learning resource. They will all become computer-literate, with no

distinction.

I'm sure that posterity and the House and the readers of Hansard

will be highly impressed with the member's opportunity to use my

estimates to put on record that he's done some research into

post-secondary and that sort of thing. But I'm not going to comment on

that. I can't respond to it, because it has nothing to do with my

estimates.

MR. CASHORE : Mr. Chairman, I think it

does have to do with the estimates, in that we are canvassing the ways

in which various ministries address the facts of the situation within

the province. And presumably, being an educator, the minister is

interested in hearing research data and bringing that to bear, so

[ Page 7542 ]

that he might do the best he can in producing an education system that is effective and worthwhile.

While

I agree with the minister that the approach taken within the schools

definitely does not seek to discriminate in who may use the computers,

nevertheless, the data points out that we have to address the fact

that, if you will, there's a socializing aspect to what happens, and

that in actual fact, boys are much more computer-literate than girls. I

think that is a concern for the minister. I don't put that forward as

anything to particularly try to ruin the minister's day, but I think

it's an appropriate issue to canvass during estimates.

Mr.

Chairman, there's just one other comment I'd like to make, and it's a

reflection on the fact there's been a tremendous transformation in the

way people in our society think about the environment, which has been

taking place over the last few years. If the Royal Commission on

Education had been conducted a year later, I believe there would have

been a very significant difference, both in the type of input that

would have been made to the commission and in the flavour of the

report. I think that some of the concepts of the Brundtland commission

would have become part and parcel of many of the presentations made to

the Sullivan commission. As we recognize the really important need to

address the environmental issues, further to the work of the Brundtland

commission, we really do see that part of the concept of sustainable

development — which we have agreed to on both sides of the House — when

it comes to education, really means that children, as they learn about

nature, need a hands-on opportunity to relate to the concept of

sustainability.

[Mr. Rabbitt in the chair.]

excellent example of this is the recent, I guess, mini-disaster, when a

diesel locomotive was derailed and spilled diesel fuel into a tributary

of the Brunette River. Many children, students at Twelfth Avenue

Elementary School, had in their school class raised salmon and released

them into the river as part of a program within the Ministry of

Education — and I commend the minister for that. They later wrote

articles to newspapers and were interviewed on television and on radio,

giving their response to this situation. I think that's an example of

education that we can all affirm and want to see developed, as we

hopefully see our educational approach being one that pays very close

attention to the concept of sustainable development.

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

I would commend to the member the reading of the mission statement,

which concludes with this statement: "The students need to acquire the

knowledge, skills and attitudes needed to contribute to a healthy

society and a prosperous and sustainable economy."

MS. A HAGEN :

I had hoped, Mr. Chairman, that the member for Atlin (Mr. Guno), who is

returning from a speaking engagement, might be in the House by this

time. But since he hasn't returned, there is a particular issue that

he's asked me to raise, and I want to just take a moment to do that at

this time. I think I know what the minister's response might be in

respect to this, but I think that it's a local issue and of concern to

families in Cassiar, in the member for Atlin's riding.

It's

a small issue but a very fundamental one in terms of how parents may

get some assistance in dealing with a matter that is of great concern

to them. Apparently there is a policy within that particular community

that is set, I would gather, by the principal. It says that children

are not allowed to come into the school until a certain time of the

day. These are small kindergarten children and are often arriving at

school in very severe temperatures, in the minus 25 degree to minus 28

degree range. They apparently haven't been able to resolve this matter,

and I think the member wanted to ask just exactly what offices of the

ministry might be available in this regard. If there is an action on

the part of a school that parents are not able to resolve, is there any

means by which the ministry can be of assistance to that community of

people to resolve that issue?

HON. MR. BRUMMET : Here

is where I have a little difficulty between my personal views and what

I can or can't do personally. I think it's easy enough for these

students to be let into the school and accommodated. When I was in the

school system, no kids stayed outside in the cold weather in my school.

I know other schools that did it, and I guess I can't stop people from

writing it into agreements. The teachers only have to supervise the

children from nine to 12 and from one to three — if that is the issue; I don't know whether that is the problem there.

find it difficult to accept as a professional, but nevertheless, if

people do that, I guess they will have to try and work it out at the

board level. Surely I can't come in there and order them to open the

school at 8 o'clock, as I did when I was a school principal.

MS. A. HAGEN :

I know a couple of times, when incidents have come to my attention from

other school districts, I have found that a person in the ministry who

I think has a school liaison role may be helpful in that regard. Is it

possible that such a person might be helpful if the member brought this

attention directly to your desk?

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

When requests come in to my office or to the ministry, we do have a

director or superintendent in charge of field services who tries to

meet with them, do some liaison and see if problems can be solved. That

could certainly be done. I don't take too many of them from the House

here, because I don't know.... In other words, come to my office or

write to my staff and we will do the best that we can.

MS. A. HAGEN : I know the member will probably speak to you directly, or to your staff, about that matter.

[ Page 7543 ]

have just a couple of other matters that I want to raise before I do a

brief summing-up of the estimates. I want to ask if the minister can

advise the House what amount of income it is estimated the government

will receive from non-residential taxes in the 1989 tax year to be put

toward the government's share of school district funding.

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

The money now goes into consolidated revenue, but they have a record

and we can give you the information because we can get it from them.

The guesstimate this year is $535 million.

[4:45]

MS. A. HAGEN :

What I'd like to do is just take a few minutes to review and then

conclude my comments on the estimates. It's been my commitment that we

would hopefully finish at about the time I think we shall finish, or

perhaps a few minutes before that time.

We've had an

opportunity to discuss over the last several days quite a number of

issues that have come to the attention of members on this side of the

House and concerns of people with respect to this minister's handling

of the affairs of education. I just want to be sure that the

conclusions we've reached are ones that perhaps we can agree upon at

this time. This is, if you like, in the nature of a wrap-up.

talked a fair bit about fair taxes and about what fair taxes might be.

I know the minister has at various times stated for the record what he

believes to be a record to be proud of.

The Union of B.C.

Municipalities has been spending a fair amount of time paying attention

to trends in school budgets from the source of revenue. Although their

figures are not right up to date, they do show certain trends. They

show that the provincial share has increased over the last six years — those are the years I've been using, '83 to '88 — fro