Manitoba Hansard — 18 February 1960 (Sitting 23A, 26th Legislature, 2nd Session)

26-2-23a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

DAILY INDEX Thursday, February 18, 1960, 2:30 P. M. Intr oduction of Bill No. 10 (Mr.

Stanes) . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . • . • . • • . . • . . . . . 677 Committee of Supply: Agriculture, Livestock Branch . • • . . . • • . • • . • . . • . . . • • • • • • • • • . 678 Dairy Branch . _ ..... ..............•................. .. •..• � . • • . . • • . . . . . . 682 Extension Service . . . • . . . • . . . . . . • . . . . . • . . . . • • . . . • • • . • • • . . • • • . • • • . • . • . • . 688 Animal Pathologist and Veter inary . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . • . . • • • . . • . . . . . . . • . . 698 Agricultural and Homemaking School, Brandon • . . . . . . . . . • . • . . . . . • . . • • . • • • • 701 Soils and Crops Branch . . • . • . • • . • • . . • . . . . . . • . • . . . • . . • • . . . • . . • • . • . . . • • • . 702 Publications and Statistics • . . . • . . • . • • • . . . • • . . • • • • • . . • • . • . • • . • • • . . • • • • • • . 723 .

Agricultural Development . . . . . . . . . • • . • . • • . . . • . . • • • • . . . . . . . • . . • . . . • . . . • . 725 The Progressive Index of Votes and Proceedings will be published on Tuesdays on the last page.

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Thursday, February 18th, 1960 MR. CHAIRMAN: Department VI (f)

(3) MR. MOLGAT: Oh, Mr. Chairman, is it item 6 or •....• (f)

(3) Pasture Improvement Project and Fertilizing Trials? I wonder if the Minister could tell us in this regarC: what is planned insofar as further pastures in the Province of Manitoba? Last year the McCreary community pasture was operated only partially and it was operated at that time only by a local group. The P.F.R.A. did not take over the pastures yet and it wasn't a complete operation. Now I wonder if he could report on the progress in that regard.

I realize that it is a federal proposition but the province is interested in this and whether he can tell us whether this year it will be operated completely by the federal and any other plans that they have in the province for additional pastures? MR •. HUTTON: Is this the Dauphin-Ethelbert? MR. MOLGAT: No, this is the McCreary. MR. HUTTON: Oh. The information that I have is that the Federal Government PFRA will take this pasture over some time in the new year-- in this 1960. The Dauphin-Ethelbert pasture from fencing will commence this year.

The Ethelbert-Mossey River pasture is under investigation at the present time. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, could you give any idea as to the areas these last two pastures will cover? MR. HUTTON: I can't tonight, I'm sorry. I can get the information fer you. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Would you do that please? By ranges and townships if you could? MR. HUTTON: Yes, I'll do that. MR. PREFONTAINE: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister was kind enough to inform the House a few days ago about the proposed community pasture in the southeast part of the pro vince, but he told us that he hasn't found yet the soil or land that was suitable for pasture. I'm wondering if he could give us more details of the parts of the southeast that he has investigated . and found out that conditions were not suitable for-such pasture and where they are looking for better soil that would produce grass in a better way in order that we might be informed of where it is proposed that the community pasture might be established. MR.

HUTTON: Well Mr. Chairman, I think it would be premature at this time to endeavour to give any specific information on this. As I say, it's under investigation and that is in the broadest sense of the term, and I think it would only lead to .. a lot of speculation if I went any farther than that right now. MR.

PREFONTAINE: I think that the Minister would agree with me that the largest concentration of cattle possibly in the province is in the southeast part, especially dairy cattle and there is a lot of young cattle growing on every one of these dairy farms, and there's rio place to go for pasture, and I think it should be in the mind of the Minister to try and establish community pasture there as soon as possible. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Before we leave this item, Mr.

Chairman, talking about the Ethelbert-Mossey River pasture and also the Ethelbert-Dauphin pasture, the farmers adjacent to the proposed areas are all in diversified farming and cattle, especially milk cows that are milked for the production of cream, are the mainstay of most of the families surrounding these · two areas, and I was just wondering, Mr. Chairman, if it wouldn't be a good idea if we left a strip of Crown land around these areas because they cover almost exclusively Crown lands so that the· farmers would have pastures outside of their own lands for the pasturing of these small dairy herds.

If you should enclose all of the Crown lands in between these municipalities then the small farmers who have anywhere from 5 to 10 milking cows would find it very diffic ult to pasture them because their holdings are small.

They couldn't pasture them on their own farms and they'd simply have to do away --you couldn't very well pasture them in the commun ity farm either as milk cows, and when the plans are made and investigations are made in this connection I would suggest to the Minister that they keep in mind the possibility of leaving the strip of land around the pasture for the farmers adjacent thereto so they would have places to pasture their milk cows. MR. PREFONTAINE: Mr. Chairman, I see an item of Fertilizing Trials. I wonder if February 18th, 1960 Page 703

(Mr. Prefontaine, cont• d) .•... the department has looked into the �oat of fertilizers in this province? It is, as far as I'm concerned, and I'm a natural farmer, I have.used a lot of fertilizer up to about $800 a year -- I say that in my district less and less fertilizers are be ing used at the present time because the costs are so high. Last year I used on SO acres of summerfallow about two tons, $160 of fertilizer and the yield in barley was 5 bushels an acre, so it was a complete loss. Sol say that from my experience I will not purchase any more in this coming spring. The price is prohibitive.

I wonder if this question of price. fertilizer has been studied by the department? MR . HUTTON: Well, Mr. Chairman, the price of fertilizer is an integral factor to be considered in fertilizer trials because what we're interested in is the net return to the farmer through using fertilizer. So to that extent the cost certainly is being considered. when any recommendations are made. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, there was some talk earlier this year that a sulphuric acid plant was to be built in the vicinity of Winnipeg.

Now I realize that this may appear to come more under the estimate of my friend, the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce, but I think that there is a possibility there of by-products in the fertilizer field. To my know ledge at the moment there is no production of chemical fertilizers in Manitoba to the extent that it can be used for agricultural purposes. Is there a possibility that with the development of this plant there could rise a local fertilizer industry and could that then expect to have a reduction in the cost of fertilizer for farm use? HON.

GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Fort Rouge):. I wish I could answer that question with any degree of certainty. There is certainly a theoretical possibility of setting up a by-product chemical fertilizer industry in the province. The figures appear to indicate a possible profitable operation. So far no capital has come forward and no management group has come forward to start the industry. We still have hopes that they might. The question now -- your second question is whether that might reduce the present price of chemical fertilizer.

Certainly without preparation or without study !' wouldn't be able to answer that question. We would certainly hope so. We hope that we might achieve the two results - that is, cheaper fertilizer for the farmer and a profitable operation for the company, but I'm quite unable to say whether that would be the result. MR . MOLGAT: Is the sulphuric acid plant definitely proceeding? Is that part of it at least going ahead MR . EVANS: Pardon? MR . . MOLGAT: The sulphuric acid plant - is it proceeding definitely, or is that the one where the Minister says that no capital has come forward, no management group? MR .

EVANS: No, that's not the one I'm referring to. I understand the sulphuric acid plant as far as I know, their plans are to proceed with it. As far as my knowledge goes, Mr. Chairman, the sulphuric acid plant intends to proceed. It wasn't in connection with the sul phuric plant that I was thinking of chemical by-product fertilizer. It's another operation that is also theoretically possible. MR . PREFONTAINE: Mr. Chairman, might I ask the Minister who has just spoken whether a study is being made of possibilities of using peat land for fertilizing purposes?

Whether it would be economically sound to transfer some of that peatwood we see on the road to Falcon Lake alongside the road maybe to use for fertilizing purposes? MR . EVANS: Yes, not long ago the possibility was presented to me of using peat lands for a number of purposes including fertilizers. I think the chemical composition of certain peats also indicates the possibility of extracting certain kinds of plastics - the kinds that are used even for pipe and hose and that sort of thing. Again, this is a theoretical possibility.

The chemical constituency of the peat itself indicates that these chemicals might be extracted. So far, however, no one has come forward with a practical proposal to put up a factory based on it. MR . HUTTON: Mr. Chairman, there were a number of questions asked and I think it would probably facilitate the consideration in the estimates if I were to give the answers now. The question is raised by the Honourable. Member for La Verendrye as to the amount of com petition that the American imports of hatching eggs was giving to the Canadian hatching flocks.

In 1959 there were 214,457 chicken hatching eggs imported as compared to a total of 14,213,000 Page 704 February 1 8th, 1960

(Mr. Hutton, cont'd) ..•• •. chicken eggs set in Manitoba. As far as turkeys, in.1959 the turkey hatching eggs totalled 31%, they were relatively heavy and there were 2, 787,000 turkey eggs set in the province and of that amount 31% were imparted. In the question of the disparity between the estimates for pasture improvement and the actual exper.diture, besides the fact that sometimes and especially this past year the farmers, due to the weather, were unable to place their orders.

Besides this factor, there is also the fact that at the time the estimates are determined the Soils and Crops Branch has no idea of what the cost of the seed might be, so they have to make as good an estimate, as accurate an estimate as they can, but when they come to purchase the seed it may be higher or lower. But in the case where we have over-estimated we have been fortunate in that we have been able to purchase feed below the estimated cost.

On the question of the breakdown for the club grants for the current estimates, the 4-H Club at Dauphin, $450; 4-H Course at Brandon, $800; 4-H Club Camp Brandon $550; 4-H Club Camp Gimli $1, 900; 4-H Club Camp Clear Lake $300; 4-H Club Camp Killarney $600; 4-H Club Camp Crawford's Park $400; 4-H Club contest Toronto Royal $400; 4-H leadership course $100; 4-H Club Public Speaking Winnipeg. $400; Wages and other assistance $2, 600; and then totals of the grants $16, 000. Then we receive a credit from the Government of Canada which gives us $23,500. Does that verify the situation for you? MR .

CAMPBELL: I'm not interested, Mr. Chairman, in grants to the various clubs, although it's interesting to have that too, but it was the -- this total item is $24,500 and I was just wondering, there are three projects under .short courses, clubs, camps and 4-H club grants. I was just asking the Minister if he could get the breakdown out of the $24,500 how much went to the short courses, how much to the club grants, how much to the 4-H club grants? MR . HUTTO:N: Well it's made up of $16,000 plus $7,500 I believe.

It' .s made up of all these items and then we have a credit of $7,500 which leaves us a net, if I'm correct, of $17' 000. MR . CAMPBELL: I think that is correct, yes. MR . HUTTON: I think that answers the questions that were outstanding. MR . HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, before we leave this item of (f) (3), would the Minister tell us where these fertilizing trials are conducted, the type of fertilizer that is used in these trials and an idea as to the variety of soils that are tested? Do they give a fairly complete coverage to the various types of soils in the province? MR .

HUTTON: I believe that there are 150 trials and they are in 24 different crop districts, or 24 different soil type.s in the province and they do give a pretty comprehensive picture of the returns to fertilizer throughout the province. To tell you exactly where they are, I'm afraid I can't do·that as they are pretty well spread over the province. MR . HRYHORCZUK: Are you using both the liquid and the dry fertilizer in these trials or ..... MR . HUTTON: I believe that they --I don't believe that they use the liquid ; I think they are all pellet type fertilizers and they're used on cereals, hays, pastures. MR .

HRYHORC ZUK: They're not developing any new fertilizers in your research labs are they? · MR . HUTTON: No. They test the commercial fertilizers. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, has the department given consideration to going into an investigation of the liquid type fertilizers? That is apparently the biggest development in the United States now and there are many mixing plants throughout the United States mixing basic and hydrous ammonia and other types of fertilizers so that the farmer can proceed and put this on in one application.

He can put it on in much heavier quantities than normally is available through the dry types and this seems to be taking over in the United States to a large extent in the field of fertilizers. Now maybe here due to our shorter season, due to the rush in the spring at seeding time to get the crop in, and sometimes in thA fall there is the same difficulty as was the example this fall that this may not work. But it seems to me that this would be the time that a complete investigation of this should be done because it certainly has been one of the prime developments in the fertilizer field in the United States. MR .

HUTTON: I'm afraid that I was incorrect when I said that liquid fertilizers were not being tried because they are in combination with the pelleted type. They're using the February 18th, 1960 Page 705

(Mr. Hutton, cont'd) .. ·-·.ammonia type nitrogen, and in combination with that they are using 1148 as a spring application. And varied combinations are being used. I didn't have the in formation here but it just occurred to me that I have been reading the reports of the various tests that have been carried on and I am quite sure that they do try them both by themselves and in combinations to determine the best returns. MR . HRYHORCZUK: One more question, Mr.

Chairman, and maybe the Minister wouldn't have the answer to this one but down in my area there is quite a variance as to the amount of fertilizer used per acre. It varies anywhere from 30 to 80 pounds. I've often been asked a question.- - I am curious myself-- as to whether an overdose, if I may use that term, of fertilizer could be harmful to the crop. MR . HUTTON: No, I wouldn't say that it would be harmful but I would say that it would be harmful to the farmer's pocketbook because he wouldn't get any returns for it.

There is a maximum of -- you reach a point where you get the maximum benefit for the amount that you use and it's a question on the part of the department to determine just at what point the farmer gets the most returns for the dollar spent on fertilizer. , MR . BRYBORCZUK: I suppose the maximum would depend on the variety of soil too, wouldn't it? MR . BUTTON: Oh yes, the variety of soil and the crop that he is -- whether he is fertilizing a forage crop or hay crop or cereal crop, or potatoes or vegetables or feed. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister was going to get me some figures I believe, as to the expected expenditure under (3) for this year that we're in now. !_wonder if he was able to do that? MR . BUTTON: Pasture and ....... ? MR .

CAMPBELL: My point was that on this item 3 that a year ago, that is, the year ending March 31st '59, that on these projects that there was just $49,000 odd spent and then the very next year the '60 estimates jumped up to the present estimate of $69,000 and I was wondering if that wasn't a little bit optimistic and then I wondered from that if it had been or had not been brought to Committee this year. MR . BUTTON: Well, I think again the same thing applies that when making our estim ates for this coming year we have to take into account the fact that we don't know what the cost of seed may be.

We don't know exactly what the response of the farmers is going to be but we have to be prepared for the response that we hope we will get, and we have to be pre pared for the price that we might have to pay for grass seed. MR . CAMPBELL: I wouldn't think, Mr. Chairman, that the amount of seed used, that the price variation would make a difference of $9,000, would it, on a $41,000 item? MR . HUTTON: The price? Oh, I think it can vary quite a bit depending on the crop. I believe we have $54,000, no, we have $60,000 for, an estimate of $60,000 for seed, The total estimate for seed and garden supplies is $114, 800.

Against that is a credit of $54, 000. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, before we leave the matter of the community pastures, previously there was an item in the estimates for community pastures $7, 000 and I don't see this appearing in this year's estimates. Does that come now under the Pasture Improvement Project or does it disappear completely, or what is the answer? MR . HUTTON: It is included in the $69,000 it shows for 1960. It was $50,000 plus $7, 000 item for community pastures -- so it is buried in the $69, 000. MR . MOLGAT: Now as I recall it, Mr.

Chairman, that was for the operation of Sleeve Lake community pasture. Now that pasture has been built during the time of high water levels on Lake Manitoba as an assist to the ranchers along the edge of the lake who couldn't keep on. They either had to have a pasture or they couldn't have kept their herds. When it was built the limits of the PFRA did not cover all the agricultural parts of Manitoba. At that time it took off very close to my honourable friend's constituency, the southern end of Lake Manitoba and over generally in the Beausejour area to the south.

Now all of the province, I understand, is covered by PFRA, that is, all of the agricultural part which I would think would include the Sleeve Lake community pasture. I may be wrong in that regards. (Interjection) Well, the area in the interlake, it's just on designated property. Well not ..... � .on the inter lake parts but on the west shore of Lake Manitoba, the PFRA boundary there has been moved north all the way. Has it not been moved north in the interlake? Page 706 February 18th, 1960

MR . HUTTON: As I understand it, there are certain areas in the provinc� where the PFRA participates on designated programs but not as general rule. This is as far as my understanding of the situation goes, that there is an area, for instance, we were discussing the question of small projects assistance to farmers for stock watering purposes, this does not apply in the interlake area. Whether it applies north on the west shore of Lake Manitoba I e.!IJ.i111: tell you because I haven't had the occasion to make the enquiry in that regard, but I know that it doesn't apply in the dnterlake. MR .

MOLGAT: Well, I know that there has been some change in the PFRA boundaries because over on our side of the lake we, in fact half of my constituency was previously Within the PFRA limits and half it was outside, and it was always quite a point of argument as to why certain farmers could get dugouts and others couldn't. But that was changed and now the community pastures can be built in that area. For example, I think two that my honourable friend mentioned earlier, the Dauphin River-Ethelbert certainly is outside of the previous limits of PFRA and so was the Mossey River one.

Now in the case of Sleeve Lake, it would seem to me that if the boundary has been moved north on the west side of the province, in the interlake the same thing should be done, and that the PFRA should take over completely the management and operation of the Sleeve Lake pasture. Now is there any move in that regard and if not has the province made application to PFRA to have that done? MR . HUTTON: We try to get as much out of PFRA for the province as we possibly can. MR . GRAY: Mr.

Chairman, in connection with item 4, I tried very hard to support the Honourable Leader of the Opposition in his economy and save the taxpayers money. As a matter of fact as a reminder during the deliberation of the estimates I wear a Scotch tle. But in this particular case of soil erosion,- and admitting that I know very little about it, that• s why I usually keep quiet during the agricultural estimates, I think that this is a very, very serious and important subject.

We have farmers coming into the province that exploit the land, feel ing that they are not going to stay there all the time, and do not follow the biblical law of cultivating land for so many years and then give it a holiday for a year at least. Now in view of the very important subject of soil erosion, how can the province or the Department of Agri culture.give complete service on $12,000 a year estimates?

I think this subject should deserve legal obligation in one way and inspectors, and guidance, and teachers, and tell the public that it is not in the interests of our future generations to exploit the land and not bother about what is going to happen for the coming generation. My complaint in this case is that I don't think that this amount can and will do any good in our efforts to preserve the land and not exploit it while we are alive but think about the coming generation as well. MR . SCHREYER: Mr.

Chairman, in connection with this item, would the Minister tell us how they managed to effect a reduction in the amount? MR . HUTTON: A salary, previously a salary was shown in the investigation in the control of soil erosion which is now in F (

i) under the $145,000. This is the major part of the reduction. MR . PREFONTAINE: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister give us a breakdown of how much of the $11, 000 it is supposed to spend on investigation and how much on control? MR . HUTTON: The following stabilization program, assistance program is included in here; the tree planting program is included in this.

The soil conservation clubs are includ ed in here and I think you should keep in mind that there's a great deal of inter-relationship between the programs within the Soils and Crops Branch; that is, that many of the same personnel are working on on!il project as are working on another, and that it's quite possible that the farmer who is taking

part in a soil conservation club program may be getting assist ance under the pasture improvement program, so that taking the items as they appear here doesn't really give you a true picture of the effectiveness of a particular policy.

Under the investigation and control of soil erosion the major items are the soil conservation clubs and the tree planting programs, and let me assure you that we'll get a tremendous benefit from this particular program because I believe that the work that is done through the soil conservation clubs is a tremendous help to the province, because every one of the farmers who graduate and who adopt the soil conservation practices is an example to all the farmers around him, and to that extent the policy does snowball. February 18th, 1960 Page 707

MR . GRAY: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister tell us what is the program on soil preservation and how much money out of the $12,000 is actually spent, and whether there is any district in the province that there exists soil erosion, and what is being done about it? MR . HUTTON: Well there are several districts in the provinca where you may have a gully erosion problem.

Wherever: you get rolling land and heavy run-off of water you can soon have the landscape scarred by these water runs, and for this purpose $5, 000 is being appropriated in 1960 to assist the farmer, first of all, in shaping these gullies so there's a reasonable feed bed; smooth out the scars that nature has left; and an assistance for grass seed. In the case of the seed planting, and these are field shelterbelts, I believe the other day we told you we set out 1. 3 million trees in 195!}. and we expect to set out another million this year.

Since 1954, under this program, plantings have been made on close to 2, 000 farms, and last year there were 364 miles of trees planted. This year we are estimating for at least 300 miles. Some of the areas where there is investigational work going on are at Alexander, Turtle Mountains, Spring hill and Bruxelles. MR . HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, I don't think that we. should pass over lightly in· this particular item.

I think it is one of the most important under this heading when you con sider that in a great part of our province the productive soil is only a very thin layer of top soil, and when you are reminded of the dust bowls to the south of us that cover thousands upon thousands of once arable and rich lands and you go to our western province and see the begin nings of dust bowls there, and no doubt you could find some small ones even here in this pro vince, I think it is a very important subject and should be gicven considerable thought and a great deal of study.

There are of course, as we all know, two types of soil erosion or two causes for it. The major ones are wind and water and it's the wind erosion that has caused most of the damage that I speak of. Even driving through the Province of Manitoba you can see along the .fence lines piles of top soil some places as high as 4, 5 and 6 feet, which indic ates that quite a portion of the soil that may have been rich has been piled up in these long lines along the fences and tree lines and so forth. No doubt we have a good program. It is effective but it certainly is limited.

I think the dangers from wind erosion are so great that we should double our efforts in that regard. As to the usage of soils too, we have a lot of soil broken up and tilled that is not suitable for cereal crops. It probably would be much more suitable for the pasture of cattle and hay lands. And I don't know, I didn't hear the Minister mention whether we had a program whereby we tried to dissuade farmers from breaking up this type of soil. I know that we have the laying down to forage crops and so forth, but that's for land that's already been tilled.

Have we anything in the way of teaching, say in our Extension Service, as to what types of soil should be broken up for cereal crops, or are we leaving that to the intelligence of the tiller of the soil? MR. HUTTON: Well of course this is very much a part of the programs that we have in operation in the soil conservation clubs of which I've mentioned. This is one of the very valuable services that we get from the department --from the Bran ch of Soils and Crops - advice on what our land is suitable for.

In the farm business groups, of which there are 14 this year, this again:, the land use, is a major study in this 4-year course, and as I pointed out I believe yesterday, in the soil conservation clubs there is over a period of 4 years, there is advice; ther e is supervision given; and following the 4th year the farmer is given a land use map of his individual farm. All the land of different types of soil are delineated on the map. The recommendations as to how this soil should be handled are all delineated. Any particular problems that he has in land management have been dealt with over the 4-year period.

He is given a crop rotation, a variety of crop rotations that are particularly suited to his farm. And I think that on this personal basis that we are doing as good a job as we possibly can, and that if the job is to be improved upon this can only be accomplished by the participation and the acceptance of the farmer of the principles and the information that are given to him by the Soils Branch. MR . SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, this isn't the item under which we would discuss the soil and water conservation projects --that would come under 15 I take it? Now here's a little

article that points up what the Honourable Member for Inkster and from Ethelbert said, and I just stumbled across it now. It says, "in contrast, the news headlines of the 1930 speech featured drought, dust and despair. In the Melita crop reportir.g district, the hardest hit Page 708 February 18th, 1960

(Mr. Shoemaker, cont'd) •.•.•.• drought area in Manitoba, the acreage of field crops harvested dropped from a half a million acres in 1930 to less than 40,000 acres in 1934." In four years it dropped from a half a million to 40, 000. - (Interjection) -- Could be. Maybe that• s it - didn't pray for rain. But that certainly suggests the type of damage that soil erosion can do. Well, Mr . Chairman, how does --we're presently discussing Item (4) and then I note in Item (8) , Soil Surveys and Soil Investigation, and it talks about soil investigation under ( 4)- how are they correlated-- (4) and (8) there? MR.

HUTTON: No, there is no-- one is soil investigation-- or soil surveys. The only connection between the two is that each summer a team made up of provincial personnel, personnel from the University, and personnel from the Federal Government, go out and carry out soil survey investigations in the province. Last year they worked in southeastern Manitoba and they covered 600, 000 acres. These men worked under the direction of Dr. Hedlin of the University of Manitoba.

The information that they get is information that is used in the Assess ment Branch and it also will be used, as this is the type of information that will be correlated and used by the people, the federal and provincial people, carrying out the economic land use study that has been undertaken.

But there is no real connection between soil surveys and soil investigation and the investigation and control of soil erosion, except that you use the informa tion that is derived from the soil surveys and soil investigation program in working out programs of particular land use in our other programs in the Soils and Crops Branch. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, has the Honourable the Minister told us the number of Save the Soil Clubs in Manitoba? MR. HUTTON: 52. MR. SHOEMAKER: And are they given a grant of any kind -- an outright grant of any kind? MR.

HUTTON: No, the soil clubs don't get an outright grant but they get the service that I spoke of the other night, and I don't know how you could put a value on it.

I stated-- I forget when it was, I seem to have been here so long --after four years of personal contacts with the ag reps and the soil specialists and the determination of a program for his particular farm, a study of the problems of his particular farm, a mapping of his particular farm land which is detailed and which not only takes into consideration the variation in soil from one field to another but the variation in soil type that can and does occur in a particular 40-acre or 80- acre field. Now the D------people in the United States carry out a similar type of ser vice.

They charge a fancy price for this service and many of the members of agricultural staffs in the United States, and it's happening here in Canada, have found it to their economic advantage to open up offices and engage the assistance of various specialists in soil husbandry and so on. And on the question of grants, I think that the value that the farmers of Manitoba are receiving through the soil conservation clubs is something that we just can't put a price tag on.

Personally, I believe to a farmer who is in business and going to stay in business for the next 20 or 30 years, the economic advantage can be counted in thousands of dollars. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, on this item I really want to support the Minister completely because -- and the item is Investigation and Control of Soil Erosion. As the Minister has pointed out, this is the one that specifically deals with soil erosion.

The later one, as he has explained, and I'm gl ad that he did explain it at this time so that the distinction is clear, the other one is the general soil survey work and it's tremendously important too and we'll maybe have something to say about that when we come to it.

But this one No. 4 is an investigation and control of soil erosion and I certainly agree with the Minister that on this one you can't put a value on the services that the staff give, and certainly these clubs - (do you call them "save the soil clubs?'? - certainly what they do -- soil conservation ---I presume that they are largely adults although there are boys and girls in them too. (Interjection) Pardon? Largely adults .•.••... entirely adults? Well, I think that's the very best of work. I think that one of the greatest dangers in Manitoba is the question of soil erosion.

As the member for Ethelbert Plains pointed out, you've got the two kinds, water erosion and wind erosion. I'm inclined to think with all due respect to water erosion, and goodness knows it can be a terrible tragedy to the individual farmer, but I still think that wind erosion over Manitoba as a whole is probably causing more damage today than the other one. But the other one is the real tragedy to the individual when it happens. February 18th, 1960 Page 709

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd): The Minister mentioned Bruxelles. The people who are acquainted with th.at area will know that it's excellent land, first-class land, but it is not only rolling but it's pretty hilly in spots and under natural conditions the hills had trees on them. Enterprising farmers went in there and they sure were enterprising and they sure worked and they kept grubbing those trees out. And as they went further and further up and exposed the surface, and they got years of heavy rains, there was a real bad situation developed in there, and the gully in that area was a sad sight to see.

Now it is just quite amazing what can be done by --and here's a place where I can give the experts great credit --what the experts can do by going in and starting a development there on a community basis and showing the farmer just -what can be done with modern machinery by getting those gullies filled up quickly_ 3.I!d lev�lled out so that they can get a catch of grass and so on because when the heavy rains come, that water has got to go some place and it is going to go downhill and the way it goes, unless there is a pretty good well-grassed easy slope to carry it down, well, it will make trouble.

And so I know that when you talk about how bi g this question is over all Manitoba and about how import ant it is that there is a tendency of some of us to think that eleven· or twelve thousand dollars is a small part but what the Minister has said is correct, that alf"of these services work in together. The agricultural rep who shows in another place -he's working on this. All the people in this particular branch are available for work in it and their work is educational rather than actually getting out and doing the job.

It is evident to all of us, I'm sure, that you can't plant a million trees or a million point three trees with $11,000, but what you can do with $11,000 is get the people out and sell the program on the tree planting, and that's what you can do on the rest. Now I certainly agree that this is first clt.ss work.

I think it's being better done than years ago when we were in charge of it even, because the :--well the fact that they have more modern machinery to work with and more people nave been trained in this work in recent years, and they have come to see the problem and I think it's a very very worthwhile work and something we're glad to see go ahead. But because it's so big the amounts of money look small, but these little bits of money can do a big job when they are directed along that particu lar line. I presume, Mr.

Chairman, that what the Minister would say is that the tree planting program is largely directed toward wind erosion. Is that correct? MR . SCHREYER: I'm not prepared to say if this amount is inadequate. It might be adequate - I don't know. I think that one of the reasons why it might be adequate is because a lot of the good work here is done by the soil conservation clubs which don't really require any provincial outlays. But I' m wondering --I' m sure the Minister must be disappointed in the total enrolment in the clubs, because according to the report, there are only 850 farmers enrolled.

Now I'm sure that these clubs do good jobs. As a matter of fact there is one club in my home school district. And perhaps the Minister could tell us if anything is being done with a view to in creasing the enrolment --anything really substantial? MR . HUTTON: First of all, there's a graduation in this program. I believe that I graduate this year .. And after the four years the department feels that sufficient information has been given to the farmer and if he has a real desire to carry out the program he can do so on his own.

In order that we can get this program across to more people, we turn from the man who has had the four years' association with the club and give the majority of our time to· new recruits. But, of course, there's a copy of the individual farmer's plan of his farm kept on record with the ag reps of one of the Soil and Crops Branch, and if at any time, after his graduation, that he runs into a particular problem he knows where he can go for assistance. This would account to some extent for the fact that there maybe isn't the overall increase in enrolment which you would expect.

And then it's sad to say that even where the programs are operating, all the farmers are not interested. And one of the major problems that the extension service man has to face - one of the problems that he has had to face ever !!ince the first ag reps were established in the province(! believe it was in 1916) was the resistance that the farmer has sometimes for the experts. And this is a real problem --the ag reps, the extension specialists; before he sells the program he must sell himself.

And I say, it's sad to say the programs that are offered by extension services are not always accepted whole heartedly by the farm community. But, on the other hand, there's compensation for this Page 710 February 18th, 1960

(Mr. Hutton, cont• d) •..• • because if you get 15 or 20 or even 10 farmers in a district to take

part in one of these soil conservation clubs, if they carry out the recommended practices, you will notice that it isn't too long before their neighbours around them will see that it works on the practical level and they will adopt the new practices. So I think that we can't honestly evaluate this program entirely on the basis of the enrolment because in agriculture, as in every other industry, you have the innovators, you have the people who follow, and then you will have those who lag behind. MR . CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairman, if the Minister would be prepared to add that if you can get the children of those farme rs who at first don't take much interest, into the 4-H Club that eventually they sort of bring the parents along too. MR . SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, I suppose that the Honourable the Minister is familiar with Dr. McConkey and the type of work that he has been doing -- he's a world expert on soil erosion and I recall very vividly listening to a lecture that he gave a year or two ago, and a film -- there may have been two or three films that he showed at that time.

Are those films that he had-- I imagine they belong to him or in his library, but I would suggest that if we could make those available to the Save the Soil Clubs in this province we would be doing a wonderful service to them because they are just excellent, those films that he had that night. And if they could be made available to the Save the Soil Clubs I think it would be really worthwhile. MR . CHAIRMAN: -passed. 5- MR . ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, on the tree planting program. How are trees avail able?

Are trees available to individual farmers and what is the policy concerning the obtaining of trees from the forestry station? MR . HUTTON: I am not too familiar with this program but as I understand it, whenever a tree planting program is carried out in a particular district, they do require that the entire district agree to t3ke

part in the program for the very obvious reason that if you had one farm er take

part in a shelterbelt program he would catch all the snow from his neighbours, for one thing. And unless you can get a reasonably large area to accept the program, it isn't carried out, because it would pose real problems to a small area who would act as a snowtrap. Arid you can imagine what would happen in our flat prairie if you had one individual or two or three or even half a dozen. So it must be carried out, as I understand it, on a fairly larg e scale before it is undertaken in a particular district, and then assistance is given.

T!le municipality, as I understand it, undertakes to purchase a tree planter and the department pays half the cost. And then the department will make the contribution towards the planting of the trees -- I think it's $2.00 a mile. And the whole thing is organized, to myknowledge, through the ag rep and the Soil Crops Branch, and is really a major undertaking in a district. MR . GRAY: One more question. Are the tree planting-- the question of the tree planting -- are they included in these estimates? MR . HUTTON: Yes they are. MR . MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, I was under the impression that the department owned the tree planting machines and that several of them were owned by the province and doing work in various parts of the province on tree planting. I'm sure the department did own some previously. Do they not own machines any more? MR . HUTTON: I don't know. To my knowledge they contributed 50 percent. The department under this estimate, contributes -- this appropriation contributes 50 percent on the cost of the machines. MR . MOLGAT: There are no machines presently owned by the province? MR .

HUTTON: There may be, but I don't believe that the Department of Agriculture owns a tree planting machine. There's another program under another department -- another program of tree planting under the department but I think that falls under reforestation. MR . EVANS: That's in the Department· of Mines and Natural Resources. There are several tree planting machines owned at the Pineland -- is it Nursery -- near Hadashville. I think those are owned by the Department of Mines and Natural Resources. MR .

MOLGAT: Well, these trees that are planted under the Department of Agriculture are supplied by the provincial nursery. Are they not or are they supplied by the Federal nursery at Indian Head? February 18th, 1960 Page 711

MR . HUTTON: I would imagine that they are supplied by the -- made available by the Federal department. But assistance is given in -- besides the contribution to the tree plant ing machine, additional assistance is given of $2. 00 -per mile. MR . CORBETT: I would just like to add my word of appreciation to all these kind remarks of the Leader of the Opposition -- approval of the policy of the government. I would like to call the attention of the House to Item 15 on this program, Water Control and Conserva tion.

And I'm quite sure that the wise and farseeing ideas of the government in putting this department under the control of the Department of Agriculture is going to have a tremendous and far-reaching effect on this other item which we are discussing of Soil and Conservation; that water control is allied -- is going to have a big effect on soil erosion and will be tremen dously beneficial.

I just wanted to call the attention of the Opposition to the fact that it's this present administration which co-ordinated this water control and erosion department under the Department of Agriculture with which it was truly allied, and I'm sure is going to have a considerable effect on this soil erosion and these matters which we are discussing at the present' time. MR . ROBERTS: Mr.

Chairman, I'm sure the Minister is aware of the soil erosion due to water problem which exists in the Seine River area particularly in this year 1959 when the Seine River flooded and water from the Sandilands Forest Reserve from Marchand area came flowing overland to the La Broquerie, Marchand, steinbach, ste. Anne areas and washed out great gullies in farmers' fields running alongside the roads, alongside the ditches and every where but where it should be running. Has the department any particular plans or policy towards seeding down some of this area that was so badly eroded this spring? MR .

HUTTON: Not to my knowledge. MR . CHAIRMAN: 4- passed. 5- MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, on 5 I have a question that I'd like to ask the Minister and I think I gave him partial notice of it before the dinner adjournment that I was going to mention this one as well with regard to what appears in Public Accounts. Because we have here an appropriation of $20, 000 -- that of course is for the coming year. In the estimates for the present year we have $20,000, and the year ending March 31st, 1959, we had $15,000, and referring to the public accounts, Page 194, the Minister will see that only $1,447 -odd was expended.

Now once again I'm not criticizing the Minister or the department for that. I'm sure there's a good reason, but I was just wondering why the expenditure would be so far from the estimate? MR . HUTTON: I take_no responsibility for the 158-159. I can assure you that in 1959-60 the expenditure was in the neighbourhood of $19,000 and this year I believe we're asking for twenty. And this, of course,- is used for the experiments in the growing of tobacco and in making certain that we have adequate supplies of certain strains of seed -- pedigreed seed.

The ones that we, are after right at the present time are Lincoln brome and this wheat grass. MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I noticed that the tobacco item appeared back in one of the other items under Public Accounts. As a matter of fact I was going to raise it but when the Minister gave quite -- what I thought was quite a complete statement on it on his general introduction of the estimates, I decided to not do so. But the tobacco exp�rimental project .in the Public Accounts of '59 shows back under the Extension Service Branch -- in Item C (2) -- shows $1,854 there.

But if the Minister assures us that the expenditures in the present year are something like $19,000, why, that's a good justification for this estimate I guess. MR . ROBERTS: Did the Minister say how much of that was to be spent on the tobacco trials? How much of this $20, 000 appropriation? MR . HUT TON: No. A year ago there was -- in '59 there was $17, 000 spent on the tobacco experiment. And I would imagine that approximately the same will be spent this year $17,000. MR . ROBERTS: I think the Minister is perfectly aware -- Have you been out to the trial areas?

I would suggest that it would be a very worthwhile trip. The tobacco future, particularly the eastern part of Manitoba, does look quite bright, but it has had weather set backs.. But so have all other crops in the area, and wherever a normal growing season was Page 712 February 18th, 1960

(Mr. Roberts, cont'd) .....•. experienced, tobacco has proven to be quite -- -and have a very strong strong possibility in the area. Personally! would be very much in favour of an expend iture of twice or three times that much and maybe more in the coming years, because the potential is so great that a gambled amount of money at this· time surely would be well worth while.

The possibilities that tobacco holds in an area such as this are so great that if a strain can be found and it can possibly be grown at a profitable level, the long-term potential is so great that any amount that we might gamble at this time to prove that tobacco is good would surely be worthwhile.

I think the Honourable Minister as other members of the Committee are perfectly aware what tobacco has done to other· communities in Canada, particularly to a certain community in Ontario who really had land very little more valuable than the land in the eastern part of Manitoba right at the present time - the Sandilands area. It was just as light soil, just as poor soil, and people there were considered to be in a poor soil area and now of course are considered to be in the richest part ot Ontario.

And here possibilities are so great that even if there's the remotest chance that tobacco is _going to be a success in Manitoba that it surely would be risking more than that on it and sooner. We don't seem to be expanding our projects in tobacco. They ar:e at the same rate as they were when Mr. Prodan convinced the people of Manitoba that this was a good idea.

I don't think that our government has taken this possibility of tobacco seriously enough and they're expending rough ly the same amount of money each year on it as a sample -- as a test area, but they're not really going into it, I don't think, to a point where they really can find out if it is possible or it isn't. MR . HUTTON: Mr. Chairman, I want to assure the Honourable Member for La Verend rye that this government doesn't consider it a risk, nor do we consider it a gamble.

We con sider it a very sound investment and I think i pointed out to the House when I gave the initial report from the tobacco experiments that we have every intention of expanding the program but at the present time the land that is suitable for tobacco has to be improved. And this is the project that we are undertaking in 1960. We are going.to maintain the acreage that we had in the. past. We're going to improve more land for the future. MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, has the Minister said they were going to conduct trials in the Portage la Prairie area? MR . HUTTON: We're going to continue them. MR .

CAMPBELL: They have already been started there? Have they? MR . HUTTON: There was a rather unhappy experience in '59, but this is no indication whatsoever of the potential, because they experienced very bad weather conditions, but the experiment will continue. And I should point out to the House that the tobacco experts who visited this area during the past fall, who visited the experimental crops in the southeast, told us that we can't form any conclusions on a one or two-year basis.

We have to take the exper ience over a number of years before it's safe to encourage anyone to go out and try tobacco on a large scale basis . MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, does the Minister know the area near Portage la Prairie? I presume it's south and west because that would be the land I think would be suited for it. Might I ask the Minister, Mr. Chairman, if Mr. Prodan is still directly associated with this work or if he has retired, who is directly in charge of it? MR . HUTTON: You've asked for something-- as far as I know he is, but there may have been a development of late but I haven't been aware of it.

MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Prudan is right, I know, at the retirement age. If he hasn't retired I'm not aware of that. I think that this item is under discussion because this is a new crop for Manitoba,that Mr. C. S. Prod an really deserves a mention here because he was one of the earlier agricultural reps. He worked in the eastern area here when it was largely in the pioneer district and he sure tried hard to develop that area along different lines, and eventually I think it was very largely due to him that these trials were started.

I don't know ·whether he is on the retired list or not, but if he's still on the go I'm sure he'll be mighty glad to see this project make good progress. MR . ROBERTS:. Mr. Chairman, to get this straight --the $19,000 of the $20,000 is going to tobacco? Am I correct? MR . HUTTON: Yes. February 18th, 1960 ;page 713

:MR. ROBERTS: It's leaving very little for the other special crop trials and seed variety multiplications that are listed here in the estimates . MR . HUTTON : The special crop trials are carried out for the major part by th e University, but the Soils and Crops Branch have the responsibility to ma ke the one-acre plots available throughout the provinc e -- there are 24 of these plots . And the responsibility of the soils and crops people is to make this plan available and to carry on a liaison with the University in this program .

So as far as the crop question is concerned it is not an expensive item on our pa rt . :MR. ROBERTS : Mr . Chairman, would the Minister tell us if these plots are includ ing the trials of testing of various varieties of rape seed. I understand that there is a great potential that is building all the time for rape seed. It has been grown to some extent in Manitoba .. I think there's room for a great deal of experimentation for development of seed varieties that are more accept able to our climate and more acc eptable to the ma rket which is apparently building for rape seed.

I understand that Franc e, in particular , has been look ing for rape seed in our country and these are the sort of things, I suppose, we should be really pushing and looking for as a source of revenue for our farmers . Would the Minister tell us about any trials on rape seed? :MR. HUTTON : Well, the University, of cou rse , is carrying out resea rch on crop varieties consistently, and of course this is part of their program .

But the idea of the crop -- test crop, is to determine which variety, which strain is best suited to a particular soil type , and the development of new strains and varieties is carried on to a greater degree out at the University. On a visit to the Plant Science lab they showed me a new instrument that they have obtained, which will in 20 minutes give them a breakdown of the acid content of one rape seed. Now in the past it took them six weeks to find out what the acid content of that seed from the rape seed plant contained. But this has given them a tremendous impetus in their program of pl ant breeding .

Also they can grow six, by using their growth chambers out there , they can produce six crops in one year . So a great deal is being done and I was as happy as anyone when we learned that representatives from France had come over here and ma de a deal for $12 million worth of rapeseed because every time we get a million dollars worth of market, it' s a million dollars in the farmers' pocket. MR . CA IVIPBELL: ....•..... answer that question about ma rgarine , maybe we'd know whether we had a market right here or not . MR . MOLGAT: Mr .

Chairman, the mis sion that was over here from France to pur chase rape seed apparently had difficulties in getting the exact varieties that they wanted. Were they able to obtain the variety here in Manitoba? :MR. HUTTON: I can't answer that . I know that they did get the -- they want the, I believe it 's the golden variety.

I don't know exactly where they obtained the seed -- the supplies, but I think that although it is of significance to Manitoba this year if they couldn't supply that particular variety, nonetheless the inte rest on the part of France in coming over· here will lend further impetus to the program of getting what the countries of the world want , grown here in Manitoba. :MR. CHAIRMAN: ..... passed; 6 Revolving Funds, 6- passed. 7 -- :MR. E. I. DOW (Turtle Mountain) : Mr . Chairman, I would like to ask a question of the Minister.

In this Revolving Fund for loans to commun ity seed plants , were there any pla nts established in '5 9, or how many plants have been established since the loan fund was set up? MR . HUTTON : One . :MR. DOW: Just one ? Well, Mr .

Chairman, in this line of seed plan ts , I know in the western part of the province for reasons , and in this I am not criticizing the Minister or the re gulations that are set down , but there seems to be some part that they seem to have difficulty in establishing the seed community seed plants because for the past, I would say two yea rs, I've known one or two districts that have very desired thoughts to get these plants in operation. And I think, Sir, that you are aware of the fact that the se plants are possibly more beneficial now .and more needed now than they were even three, four or five years ago .

In the 1954 seed drill survey the provincial average of samples cleaned in the elevator and rejected was something like 74% and in last year, there was a survey ma de of 47 samples from the seed Page 714 February 18th, 1960

(Mr. Dow, cont' d) .. ...•. drill of which something like this -- there were 47 samples collected; 29 of those samples were graded 'rejec ted' , 8 were No. 2 seed, 7 No . 3, and 3 No . 1. And in one seed sample there were something like 346 seeds to the pound, and another one , 222 .

Well, I went a little further and I had an elevator operator make a survey of 127 permit holders and he came up with this information that 50% of these permit holders had no cleaning equip ment and 25% had equipment but it was out-dated and worn-out, and the balance had �ood usable equipment but for various reasons they weren't altogether usable .

And I'm wondering, Sir, I notice that in the estimates there is just estimated for the poss ibility of one plant under the prese nt regulations for 1960-61, that some possi ble changes in the regulations to facilitate and get these plants in operation, it seems to be -- there seems to be a very desired want of these plants throughout the various farming communities.

I think it's well known that the operation, of them won't make any money for shareholders and they seem to be backing away for various reasons , and pos sibly the Minister might have something on his mind that might be able to facilitate and expedite these plants throughout the community. I know I sat in the other day with five of the districts as set up by the department, and they have certain plans that pos sibly they have already offered to the Minister or will be offering to him, but I was wondering if he had anything in mind that he might suggest that could speed this operati.on up ?

I think it's something is needed throughout the grain-growing part of our province and unde r the present loans , we are not subsidizing the plants we're loaning the money. So would the Minister have anything to comment on that? MR . HUTTON: Mr. Chairman, we're learning a lot. We have established one plant under the Act that was brought in by the Honourable Members of the Opposition and like every thing else, when you start off in a program, you learn by experienc e.

I think that the exper ience that we have had with the plant that is in operation in the province has m·aybe posed a difficulty for the people involved, a temporary difficulty, but I believe we have learned certain things . And one is that from now on the local assoc iation will have to raise one half in cash . I don't think that this is impossible at all; in fact I believe that it is to their advantage because it has been found by experience that th ose farmers who put little into the plant are inclined to by-pass it.

That is to say, if you sell a share for $25 .0 0, if you have a $25 .0 0 interest in the pl ant, you may not take advantage of it. There are two things that are important in the success ful establishment of a seed cleaning plant . The first is in the initial stages, in financing it; and the second is, in getting sufficient business to maintain it on a paying basis . And I think there is a relationship between the initial participation of the farmer in the plant and his continued pa rticipation in the years after .

Now, I think that in the coming year that when the information that has been derived from the experience of the plant in operation has been given to those who are interested, and as I understand it there are three areas at the pres ent time who are interested in establishing plants , I think that more plants can be established and established. satisfactorily under the pres ent Act. If it proves otherwise, we're going to have to take another look at it. I think that the operations in the plant that is operating at the presen t time are fairly encour aging.

They had a little trouble but at the presen t time things are look ing up and I don't think that there' s any reason to make any drastic changes at the presen t time until we see what is going to take place .

Of course, it was neces sary to increase the loan - the maximum loan - from $20 to $30 thousand, because it was found that in the first place the plant at Rivers couldn't be built for $40 , 000; secondly, as in all businesses, there are improvements made in plant facilities and it is now found to be a great advantage to construct the plants from steel, that the problem of maintenance, the problem of keeping grain pure is reduced markedly where you have an all-steel structure building.

We are giving the thing - the program a great deal of consideration endeavouring to reduce, if we pos sibly can, the cost of the unit without in any way reducing its effectiveness to the community. But it's a program that deserves and will get constant consideration. MR . DOW: I wish to commend the Minister for tho se remarks because I agree with him lOO%.

And I' m wondering, Sir, if the information that we may have in regards to the development of the same type of plant in the western provinces have started out on a very, very small percentage and each year they increased to· almost lOO% usage as the years went along . You wouldn't ha ve those figures available , I suppose, Sir? I would --- MR . HUTTON: For Alberta? February 18th, 1960 Page 71 5

MR . DOW: Well, yes, for Alberta. Yes, in the original plant. It seems to me it went from 40 <;% to 50, on up to nearly 90% as the years went along of the communities using it. What I was trying to get at, if we could get that information more firmly established that they have proven themselves to the farmers that we might not have so much difficulty in getting over the humps that they've already hit in trying to establish ........ I must give credit to the ag reps in the various distr icts .

These chaps have worked real hard and sincere but they seem to be hitting a kind of a backstop every now and again that deters them in their efforts, and I'm wondering if something cannot be used to expedite it, whether a good sales program possibly might be, because I think it's something that'll really pay off when you see the figures used by various experts when we talk about a loss to the farmer of $5 .0 0 an acre for weeds , multiply that to a thousand dollars per farm and then you get up into the millions, and it's a terrific loss to the farmer that possibly we could speed up with the spark plug of the Minister and the ag reps that they're doing . . . • • . . • . . • .

Continued on next page. Page 716 February 18th, 1960

MR. M: E. McKELLAR (Souris-Lansdowne): Mr. Chairman, I would just like to say a few words on this very important item. I'd like to also say in our area we haven't a commun ity seed cleaning plant but we do have five very efficiently , privately owned seed cleaning plants, one at Glenboro, two in Wawanesa and two at Souris . These are all owned and operated by far mers and they buy and clean seed and export it to the United States. I am a registered seed grain grower and along with many others in our community we use this to take up the slack in our farming operations.

Between these five seed cleaning plants, they clean in the neighbour hood of half a million bushels of registered Selkirk wheat and export it to the United States and this brings in the neighbourhood of between two -thirds of a million and three-quarters of a mil lion dollars to the far mers in our area. I think this is a wonderful industry and one which allows us to sell over and beyond our quotas and I think a lot of credit goes to these five parti cular far mers who had enough courage to go into this particular line of business .

I'd also like to say that when this government took over two years ago there was a 50-50 reciprocal agree ment with North DakQta 1nd this caused great hardships to the truckers between Manitoba and North Dakota and at that time they were able to have it reduced to 1/5th and this solved a lot of problems in the trucking -- the trackers between Manitoba and North Dakota and since then it has been a great help.

I also hope that, maybe in the futu re, it will be -- they will be able to have a full reciprocity with North Dakota, the same as they have with Minnesota as this is a great help to getting rid of this wheat. I don't think there's much else I'd like to say on this other than I think each farmer realizes the importance of having good seed. Jt is just as impor tant as working your summer-fallow good or sowing fertilizer and I think if this project of com munity seed cleaning plants was started up in more communities, I think it would be worth many thousands of dollars to the farmers in Manitoba. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 7 MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I notice there's quite a reduction in this figu re. What is the explanation for this; is the department not expecting any further plants to be established or •.•• ? MR. HUTTON: Well, real izing that the program as it is today and the work that must be done at the local level to raise the fun ds, we fe el that our chances are that there won't be more than one established in Manitoba in 1960. It takes an awful lot of organization before you get into construction.

Now we may be wrong but we feel that if there is one established in Man itoba in 1960 we will have achieved quite a bit. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, can the Honourable the Minister tell us whether the Rivers Seed Cleaning Plant buy and sell seed or buy grain and sell seed to the United States as suggested by the Honourable Member for Souris-Lansdowne, and can he tell us the number of share-holders at the inception of the seed cleaning plant at Rivera and now? I mean is the mem bership increasing there? MR. HUTTON: There are 400 odd members in the Rivers Co-op. I believe there are 300 odd participating members.

They take in seed and clean i.t to registered specifications for growers in the district. As far as I know, they do not buy and sell registered seed. The plant, this fall , of course, suffered a serious set-back because of a storm and was out of production for awhile but the last report that I had is that the situation is much more encouraging at the present time.

I would just like to add a word to what the Honourable Member for Turtle Moun tain had to say about ruuning into road blocks, I think that if the fa rmers realized what the cost of adequate equipment would be on their fa rm, that the capital investment required by them to establish a seed cleaning plant in their community is relatively small, even though they have to raise, at the present time, approximately 30 thousand or less -- i.t varies of course.

But ac tually the cap ital investment required in comparison to buying even the cheapest mill today, be cause even the cheapest mill will run you $200 and the kind of service that they get from these mills, from these cleaning plants, there just isn't any comparison and it is a relatively small capital investment for the service that they receive. MR. CF.AIRMAN: 6 -- passed; 7 -- MR. TANCHAK: Mr. Chairman, are we through with six? On the subject of weed con trol, tt seems to me that I recall that the former Minister had quite a bit to say on the subject of weed control programs.

Now there are different municipalities that would like to enter into that and I understand that these areas are supposed to be five townships each. I would like to February 18th, 1960 Page 717

(Mr. Tanchak, cont'd. } .•. get some information on that. I would like to know how many were established? To my understanding it's about ten and then I would like to know how much money is appropriated as far as this project is concerned? MR. HUTTON: The size of the weed control districts is a minimum of twelve townships and they suggested a maximum of 30 townships. It is suggested that the initial unit will encom pass two municipalities and any interested urban municipalities that are included within the general area.

The agreement between the established weed control area unit and the province is that we will pay half the cost of the salary of the weed control inspector up to a maximum of $1, 500, that is the provincial grant maximum is $1, 500. In addition to this , we will contribute a maximum of $500 towards the expenses such as literature, publications of various kinds, ex penses incurred by the weed inspector in carrying out his program. We will contribute selec tive herbicides to a maximum of $350 per unit. Now the plan is to establish ten units each year.

This year we have already received resolutions from sufficient municipalities to establish the ten weed control area units. The total appropriation for the establishment of these units is $23, 500, $15, 000 for the salaries of the inspectors, $5, 000 for expenses and $3 ,5 00 for selec tive herbicides. If you would be interested in knowing how these areas are established and the administration of the weed control units, I would be happy to give it to you but -- you want to hear it?

There's an in itial meeting of the entire councils of the municipalities concerned and then they draw up a -- establish a basic agreement, they define the district area, they select an official headquarters, they establish a cost sharing basis between the municipalities, they outline the municipal responsibilities to the weed control district board and the responsibilities of the board to the municipalities. They appoint two councillors to the weed control district board; they pass a by-law under

section 44, of the Noxious Weed Act, transferring authority or delegating authority from the municipality to the proposed weed control district board. They authorize sums of money to the weed control district board to take care of their share of the salary and expenses; they establish a chemical fund in the municipal budget and this, of course, makes provision for soil sterilants, selective herbicides, application costs where applicable.

There's a regular appraisal of the weed control activities within the municipality and they are committed or obligated to definitely support all the decisions for weed control as outlined by the weed control district board. These are the responsibilities and the procedures of the mun icipalities.

The weed control unit board elects a chairman and a secretary-treasurer; they es tablish definite meeting dates and they notify the chairman of the weed commission as to the dates of these meetings; they are obligated, and under the amendment to the Noxious Weed Act, they are obligated to acquire the services of a qualified person to act as weed inspector and they establish a salary

schedule and . they make provision for expenses. The weed super visor's duties and responsibilities are outlined; and the field work operation is outlined; and progress reports have to be made; and annual reports and mapping of the entire district has to be carried out by

section on a three or four year program. And then they must make provi sion for deep-rooted perennial programs and general weed control programs. They have pro grams in weed identification and educational displays and so on. The supervisor has the res ponsibility to administer the Noxious Weed Act, the preventive noxious weed control programs and the general weed control program, and weed identification program, as it's laid down by the district committee. He has to carry out educational displays and demonstrations at fairs and field days and field locations in the schools.

He is expected to contribute news paper ar ticles ; to give lectures on weed control. He is expected to collect weeds , mount them and dis . play them ; lie is expected to attend schools to generally increase the knowledge of the public with regard to weeds and weed control. He is expected to make farm visits; and he is expected to make monthly and annual reports; do weed mapping and so forth.

Now you may say that that's an awful program for a weed inspector to carry out, but one of the great advantages of this program i.s that it makes allowance for a full time weed inspector twelve months of the year, but in the summertime of course he will be expected to carry out his field duties. In the winter months he can plan his programs; he can tackle difficult problems that do exist and we all know they exist.

Some of them are pretty knotty but this gives him time to attack these programs and to formulate a strategy, if you want to call it that, and much of the educational program will be carried on of course in the winter months and the actual control of weeds in the summer. Now I think that, unless I maybe should outline the duties of the Department of Page 718 February 18th, 1960

(Mr. Hutton, cont'd. ) •.. Agriculture. The Department of Agriculture is responsible for the approval of financial assistance as outlined in the policy. They are responsible to give techni cal assistance and advice. They are responsible for approval of the program and for supervi sion. We are responsible for educational and training programs for the weed inspectors, and there is one being carried on this winter at Brandon. We are responsible of course in taking a major

part in the educational programs and so forth and make available the technical know ledge that we have. I think that pretty well outlines the program. Are there any questions? MR. SHOEMAKER: You have touched on the size of the weed control areas, if that's the proper term to use, but would you suggest that an ag rep area might be about the ideal size of a weed control area, or should it be double that size? MR.

HUTTON: No, I don't think that it necess arily bears -- there may be a relationship between the ag rep area and the weed control area but I would suggest that the main considera tion in arriving at the size of the area was the ability of a weed inspector to deal with the size of the area involved and not the question of whether it fell within the framework of the ag rep's area. MR. E. I. DOW (Tu rtle Mountain): I think you've covered it pretty well but there's one problem that arises with the urban centres within the district.

Is there any formula that your department has set up in regard to their participating cost or is it just an agreement that they - make with the various municipalities, realizing that you may have possibly 24 to 30 sections and an urban area may be only one section, do they participate on a

section basis or do they go on an assessment basis, or is there any? I might say we've run into that already and I was just wondering if there was some formula that your department may give a lead on. MR. HUTTON: No, of course they will contribute much less than the municipality, but the policy states that "any interested urban municipality within the general area. " MR. DOW: But don't you think, Mr. Minister -- Mr. Chairman, that they should be in terested or we might defeat the purpose ? If the urban areas were allowed to be left out, that would defeat what the department is trying to do.

In my opinion, I would like to see something that they shall be in there, but the formula for participating is the one that I'm concerned with, not that I want to feel that the urban boys are not going to pay their share, but on the other hand if there was something, either so much a

section or so much per unit or something of that na ture, I think it would solve the difficulty and possibly arguments. MR. HUTTON: Well the question of financial participation is left to agreement between the municipalities, and I think that possibly for a very good reason -- that the municipalities in Manitoba -- there may be quite a variation in the topography and the amount of land to be considered and so forth, and it is thought, and here I must speak off the top of my head, I would imagine that it was felt that the municipalities would have to come to an understanding on this.

Evidently, from the results that we have seen, this hasn't posed too great a problem in getting . co-ope ration between the municipalities. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, I'm sure that most of the members here have read with interest the progress that is being made on wild oat eradication and the treatment of same. I wonder if the Minister can report on that progress? MR; CAMPBELL: :Wrr. Chairman, before we do that, if I might pursue the other ques tion just a wee bit I'm sure the Minister won't forget the wild oat question. I, too, find the Minister's statement on this very interesting, Mr.

Chairman, and I think it's a very ambitious -, scheme. Do I understand correctly when the Minister is outlining the responsibilities of the department and of the municipalities that that is all covered by an agreement between them ? It's an agreement • • • • . · MR. HUTTON: It's covered by the regulations under the program. MR. CAMPBELL: Oh. Is there

an Act! There's no Act that covers this as yet, is there ? MR. HUTTON: No, but in order to qualify for the assistance they must do certain things. MR. CAMPBELL: Well, then it really is a sort of an agreement I guess, or regulations, whichever -- When the Minister speaks of a quali.fied weed inspector it seems that this is going to be quite a job that he has. Will "qualified" under that desiguation mean that· he will have to be technically trained or do they leave that up to the people themselves? February 18th, 1960 Page 719

MR . HUTTON: Characteristics of a com petent weed supervisor should include: mature judgment, basic knowledge of farming problems, personality, an alert mental attitude for learn ing, administrative ability, firmness of decision. -- (Interjection) -- So we hitched our wagon to a star. I don't think so. I think what we're looking for is preferably a farmer who, or some one with farming experience who has good horse sense, good common sense, good judgment; who enjoys studying a little; who enjoys working with the public; and who will take a real interest in it.

I think these are the basic qualifications and I am told by the Soils and Crops Branch, by Mr. Forbes, that we are very fortunate that we are finding the type of man that we want. MR. CAMPBELL: I agree completely, Mr. Chairman, with the Minister's qualifications and I am sure they can find them. I have only one more question on this point, and that is, can the Minister give us now the areas roughly -- the districts where they've already appli ed? MR. HUTTON: Birtle , Miniota, Shoal Lake, Hamiota, Strathclair, Blanchard. These have already passed a by-law to form a district.

Harstone, Albert, Edward, Arthur, Brenda, Winchester, Whitewater, Morden, Riverside , Turtle Mountain, Robli.n, Louise and Portage la Prairie and Ritchot and DeSalaberry. Other areas that are interested are Daly and Whitehead, South Cypress, Victoria, Morris and Montcalm, Rhineland, Stanley, Hanover and LaBroquerie. MR. CAMPB EL L: That is the information I wanted to get, and I apologize to the Hon ourable Member for Gladstone for pushing in ahead of him but I thought maybe it was best to get the questions on this thing finished up before we went on to sow our wild oats. MR . TANCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, I still have two questions here on this. Were all the different municipalities aware of the fact that only ten areas would be established this year ? Through what medium were they informed ? MR. HUTTON: If I am not mistaken, the municipalities were all informed about the program and their information was such that they passed a resolution at their annual convention endorsing it and asking the Provincial Government to proceed with the program that had been outlined to them. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, the Minister said that this was limited to ten. Now my question is, why was the figure of ten chosen?

If this is a worthwhile program and more want to join in, it seems to me that the extension should be made. And I understand from the Reeve of Montcalm Municipality, for example, that they wish to form a district and that they have been advised that they are the eleventh, so that they're on the outside looking in and ..•• MR. HUTTON: They're first on the list for 1961. MR. MOLGAT: Yes, well now that's very fine but then what are they going to do in 1960? Here is a municipality who I think is prepared to go in with the Municipality of Morris to form such a district.

I think it's agreed that this is a valuable plan or the Minister wouldn't have put it in, so it would appear to me that we should have more leeway there, and if they are prepared to come in and join in the same way as the others then that they should be taken in on the same basis, otherwise the program will be retarded in that area for possibly a full year. Now couldn't something be done, either that the present assistance, if the Minister can't see his way to find more money to put into the project, then could the amount of assistance set up be divided amongst the total number who apply ?

Then next year, if the Minister intends to put more money in to it which I presume i.s his intention, then the grants could be increased to them all. But at least all of them would be on the same basis this year. It seems to me that unless that is done that it can lead to discrimination merely because they didn't happen to get the appli cation in amongst the first ten. MR . HUTTON: If it were a mere question of money it would be easily answered, but this program to be successful, I think you will agree, must be introduced rather carefully.

The staff at hand -- Weeds Branch doesn't feel that they can do an adequate job if they try to open it up wide, and I would suggest to the honourable member that if we make exception for one we must make exception for all. The program was laid out so that we would by stages make this program available to the whole province, but to do it to advantage and to get the greatest bene fit from it we believe that it should be done by steps, taking on as much as we are able to do good job of in a single year.

And it is felt that by adding ten units each season that this can be done and that we can get the most advantage from the new program, because we feel that if we introduce this on such a broad scale that we can't give the supervision and the assistance that is necessary and required under the program that it might fail, and there is no point in trying Page 720 February 18th, 1960

(Mr. Hutton, cont'd. ) .•• to bring a- - not trying to bring it but carrying a program out in such a manner that it is likely or liable to become into discredit.

It is much better to carry it out on a basis where we have a reasonable amount of assu ranc e that it's going to succeed, and I believe that even though that it represents a delay of one or two years for soLle of the municipalitie s, at the same time the present method of weed control has gone on for a good many years and I don't think one more year is going to endanger the state of aff airs in a particular proposed area to the same extent that we would endanger their future if we jeopardized the program by trying to carry it out on too big a scale. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chai rman, I believe the Member for Emerson asked the question but I didn't catch the Minis ter 's answer if he gave it. Were the municipalities aware, when they were advised of this, that there would be only ten districts formed in the provinc e? MR. HUTTON: Yes. MR. MOLGAT: Was that part of the inf ormation that was sent to them at that ti me? MR. HUTTON: Yes. MR. MOLGAT: Was the deadline set up for applications by the municipalitie s? MR. HUTTON: I can't say that a deadline was set up but it was understood that those who applied for inclusion in the program in 1960 first would be served fir st. MR. CHAIRMAN:

(7) MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, I never got an answer to my wild oat problem. (Interjection) -- Oh, isn't there ? MR. TANCHAK: There's one more question on this No. (7), Weed Control. And I'm going to use the famous phrase of "go it alone" this time. What if the municipality decide s to go it alone on that ? Would the department be prepared to give them any ass istanc e at all ?

Maybe not moneywise -- financially -- but as far as education and so on if they decided to go it alone, because I understand that these two municipalit ies, Morris and Montcalm, intend to go it alone this coming year if the government is not prepared to assist them. Would the gov ernment assist them in any way at all? MR. HUTTON: I can't answer that question here tonight. I would have to consult wi.th the chaps in charge of the weed program in the provinc e to determine what the answer should be .

It's possible that if there is a determination on the part of a munici.pality to -- that some consi deration can be given , but I must say to the House that I think it is unfair to ask the Weeds Branch to try and carry out a complete provinc ial program on this in 1960 because, as I say, unless adequate supervision can be given in the setting up of this program it could very well fail and the enthusiasm of February could turn to disgust by October and this isn't going to serve any good purpose. But I will consult the members of my staff on thi s question and see if anything can possi bly be done. MR.

SHEWMAN: ·Mr. Chair man, the name of Reeve Beaubien and the municipality have been mentioned in this discussion, and I was talking to both the Reeve of Montcalm municipality today and the Reeve of Morris municipa lity along wi.th Mr. Ford of the Department of SoUs and Crops and the man in charge of weed control. We haven't been able to contact the Minister on acc ount of him being busy wi.th his estimates but those two reeves -- and I'm telling the Min is ter now that they would like to have an interview with him just as soon as possible to discuss this very thing as far as they are concerned.

Now that meeting took place at noon today. (Interjection) -- Pardon, MR. HUTTON: I would be happy to meet them. MR. SHEWMAN: That's the situation and I just wanted to put the Honourable Member straight on just what took place today because I don't think they were just quite up to date op. what the department was trying to do. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I apologize for asking just one more question.

It seems -- it's not a criti cism, but it seems that more areas were wanting in than could be ac commodated this year and I can see the Min ister 's reason for why it's diff icult to keep on ex panding indefinite ly. What I would like to ask is, by what means were the municipalities noti fied, by lettt:lr or circular ? MR. HUTTON: I think they were all contacted directly by the Weeds Personnel. That is my understanding. MR. CAMPBELL: By circular letter or something ? February 18th, 1960 Page 721

MR . HUTTON: Well by circular letter, and in many cases on a personal contact basis. MR . CHAIRMAN: (7) passed.

(8) MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, are we going to get an answer or a .• •••• MR . HUT TON: 'Do you want to hear about wild oats? MR. SHOEMAKER: Yes, and what's being done about it. Is there a chemical available to the municipalities, etc. , etc. and etc. MR. HUTTON: Pardon? A MEMBER: The last three words were etcetera. MR. SHOEMAKER: Just make the report that you intended to give us on the wild oats. The progress that the department is making on wild oats. MR. HUTTON: Well the department isn't making any progress on wild oat control. The university has undertaken studies and Dr.

George Friesen, who is in charge of the Weed Control Research at the University of Manitoba, has had in 1959 significant success in the control of wild oats in wheat, barley and flax. There are two chemicals used, and don't ask me the name of . them off-hand. One is tilled into the soU as a pre-seeding operation and the other is applied post-emergence. In both cases there was, as I said, marked success in the control. I believe in the flax that there was an increase of something like -- it was over 200% in yield.

The cost of the chemical at the present time is about $7. 50 an acre, but I am told that they expect with the widespread use of this chemical that it could be reduced to as little as $1. 50 an acre for the cost of the treatment. So I would say that we can look forward with encouragement to the day when we don't need to worry about the wild oats that we sow. MR .

CAMPBELL: I think this is really a remarkable development, and I was amazed to find the statement in the Agricultural Research Progress Report that the Minister had laid on our desks, that though I had certainly known that wild oats were the No. 1 problem among the weeds, and there's no question about that, I still was astonished to find the statement that wild oats continued to be a major weed problem in Manitoba. That

part I was aware of, but this part, "causing greater financial losses to the farmer than all other weeds combined, " well I must confess that that is new to me but I accept the statement because I know how troublesome they are. And if the report that's been given here, and I have read the wild oat portion of it very, very carefully and much more so than I've got to read the other parts of this report be cause that one had received some prominence in the newspapers, I think it is really most en couraging.

I was glad to hear the Minister say in concluding his brief statement on this that he thinks that with widespread use of the chemical perhaps it will come down to $1. 00 an acre and it will, in his view the way the research has indicated up to date, probably mean the end of our troubles with wild oats. Well that seems almost too good to be true because people who come from the heavy lands

section such as he and I do, we have sure found wild oats to be a tremendous problem during the -- well all the time that either he or I have been close to farm ing. I remember very well when out in the Flee Island district it looked as though sow thistles were probably going to run us off the farms. There just wasn't an answer at one time to the problem of sow thistles, particularly with the marsh bordering on the lake ready to seed down our summer fallows .every year and no amount of weed control could do very much about it. And it was a farmer in that area who found the best answer to the sow thistle problem.

It was terrible at one time, but a farmer found that harvest plowing was really the answer to it.

It was difficult because it had to be done at the time of the year that the farmer was busiest any way, but it was a lifesaver, and as the Minister I am sure knows, sow thistles, now that mod ern machinery has come along just isn't a very big problem anymore at all; At one time it just looked as though it was the number one weed in our country. -- (Interjection) -- Well the grasshoppers were given a lot of the credit for it, but actually the harvest plowing system that's so easy to do with the modern machinery was what did it in the Portage la Prairie area before the big infestation of the grasshoppers, and that really is controlled.

Then it wasn't very long till we were, in that area, we found that wild mustard was really the number one problem because pretty nearly everybody knows how to handle one or another of these weeds but wild mustard was a particularly tough one. Then there came along this spraying proposition with one of the chemicals. I believe the name of that one was Synox if I remember correctly, a yellow material something the colour of the mustard itself, and mustard just ceased to be a major problem anymore with the spraying program. Now if this turns out that it can do the . Page 722 February 18th, 1960

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd. ) ••• wild oat in, for something in the neighbourhood of a dollar an acre, we've really made some progress. And i.f that turns out to be true, and I certainly hope that the Minis ter's estimate is right, i.f it does, then all the money that's gone into that type of research out there will be returned in one year.

I kno w that this program's been going on for some little time but there really is a prospect -- i.f the situation is as good as both the report and the Min ister seem to believe -- there really is a prospect that at last we've got the number one enemy of the grain crop on the run. I hope he's right and I congratulate the people that•ve been doing the research on this job. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, it's still considered to be in an experimental stage, is it not? That is, the farmer is not yet able to buy the chemical. Or is it available to him even at the $ 7. 00 an acre? MR .

HUTTON: I believe it is available at $ 7. 50 an acre. The cost of application would be approximately $7. 50 an acre and the only place that you would consider using it would be on flax. I imagine. But I would suggest that i.f and when the price of the chemical is reduced to the place where you can treat even wheat at $ 3. 00 an acre that it will be advisable, at least I would be interested in it for two very, I think , sound reasons.

The first is, that in the control of wild oats by cultural methods you are involved in delayed seeding, and I think it's pretty well established in this country before the development of Selkirk wheat which has to some extent altered the situation, that whenever you delay seeding you first of all jeopardize the yi eld; sec ondly, you run into a period of weather in the fall which our experience has shown is n't nearly as suitable for harvesting; so that i.f, by the development of the wild oat control by chemical we can go out and thresh that grain when the weather is right and the condition of the soil is right, then we stand to get our biggest yields; and secondly, when we've had our crops seeded in time, it means that we can take it off that much earlier in the fall and avoid the risks of a late har vest. -- (Interjection) -- Pardon?

Yes. And for those reasons I would say long before it reaches $ 1. 50 an acre it will, I think, meet with favourable response from farmers who are pestered by wild oats. I think we all recall when 2, 4-D was introduced, that it costs us in the neighbourhood of $ 1. 00 an acre for chemical. Today we can spray our crops for about a third of that. There have been tremendous improvements made. Today we use various types -- MCP rather than 2, 4-D. MCP has proved to be much easier on oats and barley for instance.

You can even go out and spray a field where you have a seedling crop of alfalfa and get away with it, and I suppose i.f those farmers who farmed 20 years ago could see how easily the farmer of to day handles his weed problems that he'd think that we were "just in clover". MR. CHAIRMAN: (7) -- passed; (8) -- passed. No. 3, Resolution 27 -- Agriculture, $ 1, 275, 375 -- passed; No. 4 (

a) MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, on No. 4, could the Minister tell us what the salaries cover there? There seems to be a very sizeable increase in the appropriation. What is the reason for the change? MR . HUTTON: According to my figures there are the same number of bodies as a year ago, but there are ten salaries included: that of the Director; that of the Supervisor Consumer Information; agricultural ...••• who is our radio and TV commentator and writer, Mr. McNair; an agricultural editor writer, Mr. Smith; an agricultural information writer, Mr. GUes; an ag ricultural statistician, Mr.

Proud; and three clerk stenographers. I might say when I'm on my feet that this department has undertaken a very ambitious program. We were very fortunate to have six radio stations in Manitoba give us time for five minute broadcasts every day, and this has afforded us a most invaluable opportunity to get information that is pertinent to the problems and to the moment before the farmer.

I might also say that some of the increase in the appro..: priation is necessitated by the need for more equipment and the tremendous demand on the part of the public, both the farm public and �he consuming public, for more information. I think that it is money well spent because i.f we've going to get the benefit of all the research and all the woi'kthat's being done on behalf of the farm community and for which the consumer, too, bene- . fits, I think it's money well spent in giving this information out and I think we've very fortunate in the staff that we have, the calibre, their ability in doing a fine job.

MR MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I don't quite understand how come there's a 25% increase in salary expenditure i.f there 1s no change in the staff. -- (Interjection) -- Last year's which? We've two Ministers of Agriculture now but ••• February 18th, 1960 Page 723

MR. HUTTON: Well, I think the question is answered by the fact that a year ago there -were -- there have been established positions filled since a year ago. An assistant accounted for the increase in the salaries. What is that? MR. MOLGA T� It's a matter of $ 11, 000. MR. HUTTON: Oh, yes. It was the -- we were fortunate in acquiring the services of Mr. Keith Smith and there was no vote for his salary in 1959-60. This accom1ts for the most of it and the other portion would be increase in salaries. MR . CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairman, before this item is passed I wanted to ask the Min ister about the little agricultural statistics bulletin that this branch gets out. The one that's crammed full of information about agriculture. It usually comes about this time of the esti mates. Is the Minister able to tell us when it will be available this year? MR. HUTTON: I can't tell you that. I have enquired myself because I find it very use ful, and so far it is not available. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I think that you are referring to this little booklet here, the Story of Manitoba's Agriculture? MR. HUTTON: No, no. MR.

MOLGAT: Well now, this one here also is a very useful little booklet. It's a nice handy pocket size and gives all the statistics. Now I don't believe this had been reprinted since 1956. is it the intention of the department to keep on printing thi:s one, or to reprint tt, or what is the situation? MR. HUTTON: I can't answer what the intention of the department is but I have found that particular booklet of immense value myself and I wot.D.d be in favour of it. MR. CHAIRMAN: (

b) passed. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, under the matter of Supplies, Expenses and Renewals, is the department doing anything on the matter of film production in the agricultural field? And if_ so, what is the project? MR.

HUTTON: Film equipment has been purchased; we have a new studio built here in the old Soils and Crops vacancy; we have purchased cameras; we 've purchased a 16 mm movie camera to make short movies one to five minutes in length -- these are used in TV presentations and at meetings -- and of course part of the expenditure, the increase in the expenditure i.s due to the fact that those people with the responsibi.li.ty for making the film and getting the scripts ready must move around through the province to get the information, both of a technical nature and a practical nature, that is attractive and interesting to the public.

And this requires an ex penditure of monies to keep them going. MR. MOLGAT: Have there been any films produced so far by the department? . MR. HUTTON: I can't answer that just off hand. They have been engaged during the latter part of 1959 in developing a series of programs which have been going out on the daily broadcasts, and I think you can imagine just the magnitude of the task when you even have to . get a five minute program ready. Som etimes I think it's more difficult to say all that you want in five minutes than it is in five hours. They are faced with this task.

They must have a new program for every day in the week and it's quite an ambitious undertaking. As to whether they · have undertaken to make any film as yet, I am not aware. You no doubt are aware though that our Mi1:1s McKay has been appearing on the CBWT television program. She undertook a very ambitious

schedule for this winter. It has been extremely successful and her contribution has been appreciated, not only by the department but by the CBC, and I think she should be con., ara tulated for the job she did along with all the others. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, wlil these films be available for farm groups? MR. HUTTON: Yes, that's just what they are made for. MR . GUTTORMSON: And who do they speak to to rent them ? Who do they have to con tact to be able to rent these films ? MR. HUTTON: Well I would imagine you'd contact the Department of Agriculture. MR. GUTTORMSON: I'm well aware of that.

I would say what particular branch of the Department of A'grtcglture? MR. HUTTON: Publications and Statistics. MR. GUTTORMSON: Is there any rental on those films ? MR. HUTTON: I wouldn't imagine so. Page 724 February 18th, 1960

MR. CHAIRMAN: (

b) passed. Resolution 28 -- Publications and Statistics, $81, 920 -p assed. No. 5, Agricultural Development -- (

a) Salaries ... MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, •.•••. and when we get it could we get the number of those who are agricultural reps at the sam e time please ? MR. HUTTON: There is an appropriation for 37 agricultural representatives, six assis tant agricultural representatives, three technical staff, 34 clerk stenographers, four provisional assistants, openings include student assistant openings.

There are 35 offices; there are 37 dis tricts with 37 ag reps; and then although we are lacking five bodies in this group -- I believe it's five -- there's an appropriation for six assi stant ag reps to assist the agricultural representa tives who have areas which are either of a very diverse nature in their agricultural production or who have a larger area to cover than normal, or who are carrying heavy programs. For any one of these reasons they may have an assi stant. MR . GRAY: Mr. Chairman , I'd like to ask a question. Are they, most of them, agri cultural graduates ? MR.

HUTTON: They are all agricultural graduates. MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, I asked a question before dinner whether the ag rep is going to be re-established at Fisher Branch and the Minister told me to ask the same question under this item. Is he prepared to answer that question? MR. HUTTON: •.•.• as to whether we are going to establish an ag rep at Fisher Branch? MR . WAGNER: Re-establish. MR . HUTTON: Re-establish?

Well I might say that at all times the ag rep areas, as far as their boundary and so forth and the area that they cover, are under consideration in an endea vour to see that the best job possible can be done. And as I pointed out, during the past year two additionalagreps were established-- or ag rep areas were established and a re-organization of three other ag rep areas was carried out to gi.ve a more even distribution of work loads to the ag reps and to attain the best mileage possible out of the service and so on of the ag reps in that area. MR . WAGNER: Mr.

Chairman, I discussed this matter with the former Minister and I also discussed it with the department -- one of the branches, and I was -- at least I was under the i.mpr�ssion -- assured that this reorganization program is going to be carried out for one year, and then i.f it doesn't turn feasible they are going to re-establish another ag rep in Fisher Branch. Now as far as I get the answer from this Minister, it does not gi.ve me a definite an swer whether in his own mind that it's feasible to have such a large area for one ag rep, as I said before.

He is in a very ticklish position because i.f he wants to get out and inform the far mers he has to travel one way -- 70 miles to get to the other end of his territory, and surely we don't expect one man to travel such a vast area and gi.ve service to the farmers. Just an example, as I said before, he comes out once a week to Fisher Branch and then that particular day the farmers have to line up and get the information and they are disgusted and they don't come at all, and that area is not assisted by the ag rep altogether.

So I understood, as I said before, that if it's not feasible -- well to my knowledge and the complaints from the people there, it's not feasible. to have one ag rep in Arborg to fill the whole practically Interlake area. So when the Minister stated that he has two districts over there -- the new districts -- well I would surely think that re-establishment in one of the old districts -- the ag rep would be posted. MR. CHAIRMAN: (a) -- passed. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister tell us how many ag reps he has in the Interlake? MR.

HUTTON: In the total Interlake area there are one, two, three, four, five. MR. GUTTORMSON: Where are they located? MR. HUTTON: Ashern, Arborg, Teulon, Stonewall, Selkirk. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, I sym pathize with the remarks made by the member from Fisher because I know in my particular constituency which is quite large, more than 100 miles long, we only have one at Asharn and I think he just can't serve the area like it should be because the area is too large for him to get around and for people to come to see hi.m.

And I would certainly appreciate i.t i.f the Minister could take into consideration to try and lo cate another ag rep in that area. February 18th, 1960 Page 725

MR. HUTTON:. Well I would say this, I think that we -- there is a question and a real question as tc whether it is wiser to open up a second office and put an ag rep in or whether it is wiser in some areas to put in an assistant, because I think ·something can be said for the fact you divide the work load in terms of its scope and that possibly a petter job can be done that way.

And _as I said, we can't carry out the program in one year or two years, but we do Jeel that in the next two or three years we would be able to make improvements and certainly every year we are goin&" to endeavour to make adjustments in the boundaries and the areas with the goal in mind of getting approximately one ag rep for every 1, 000 to 1, 350 people. This is. the goal. Now. on the question of working individually with farmers, I think that this is :>.sking an awful lot of an ·ag rep.

Surely his best work is done where be is working with groups -- his work for the 4-H; his work for the soil conservation chlbs; his work with feeder cattle associations; his work with any other number of interest groups in the community. If you were to endeavour to deal with the farmers' on an individual basis, I'm. afraid the ag rep would be run right off his feet because even in the smaller areas, territorial-wise, the ag rep would have to meet on the average of three people a day -- Sunday, Monday and Christmas, in order to deal directly with the public on an individual basis.

But he can reach and do a tremendous job where he's dealing with -- using a group •. .•••• • MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, I don't know if the Minister is aware -- I didn't mean to say on an individual basis. But just for his information, possibly for the House, .we had an ag rep in Fisher Branch; we had 4-H clubs started. We were discussing the calf clubs, but what happened? Our ag rep was taken as an assistant to the Dauphin area, and Dauphin seems to be very popular. They took our ag rep as an assistant to Dauphin area. Now what happened in our area?

Our calf club fell apart; our 4-H club fell apart; our sowing club fell apart. I didn't mean that the ag rep h?.d to go 70 miles to see one individual farmer, but surely I expect the ag rep -- if there is enthusiasm in the country forming any kind of a club we should be as sisting them, and naturally when these young people and elderly people -- as a matter of fact there was a particular one woman that was helping, she was neglecting her farm home, I'm going to say, to assist the ag rep in forming these clubs and what not, and then this was just taken away .. Well surely, Mr.

Chairman, we expect an ag rep back in the area because this one -- it's -impossible for him to cover that area. I sympathize with the man as I said before. I never met him; I never seen the man; but I just realize what he has to come through. Here the Minister says or tells him of 300 people, and mind you I'm guessing, we have over 10, 000 - for one ag rep. This consideration should be taken with sympathetic consideration as you like to call it. MR. GUTTORMSON : Mr. Chairman, the Minister didn't really mean tbat an ag rep for every thousand or 13 hundred people did he? -MR. HUTTON: Farmers, farmers. MR.

GUTTORMSON: At the present time -- (In terjection) -- Pardon? MR. HUTTON: I meant farmers. - MR. GUTTORMSON: I thought perhaps you did. At the present time we have one ag rep located_ a,t Ashern and the nearest ag rep south is Stonewall. Well this is well over 100 miles and certainly it's far too big an area for one ag rep to do a job on. MR. HUTTON: He haa 1205 farms to serve. MR. GUTTORMSON : The ag rep at Ashern? He's got to serve all the area all the way north to Gypsumville and all the way -- I don't know how far -- where does the boundary line extend South then? MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr.

Chairman, I think that if you spread your ag reps across the province on the basis of the number of farms he has to serve, whether that is in itself a fair way of doing it. MR. HUTTON: That isn't the only consideration. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Well I hope not, but with your answer to the Honourable Member from St. George, it looked that way to me. MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the Minister -- these two new districts, are they new districts or are they the same ? -- They are brand new districts. Well I'm a little bit Page '726 February 18th, 1960

(Mr. Wagner, cont'd. ) . • • surprised and disappointed, when there was a district already estab lished under the ag rep and now he has been taken away and new districts are formed. There surely must be something wrong. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, how far north does the ag rep from Stonewall cover? MR. HUTTON: I don't know whether you can,see this map. MR. GUTTORMSON : I can see it. ' MR. HUTTON: I asked the department to make it tip for me because itis a little bit confusing. They did a very good job. I'll admit that the member for St. George has a problem in that area.

I think his problem -- he has much more to complain about than the member for Fisher. -- (Interjection) -- I don't know whether you can see it from there, but I think that there has been effected a fairly reasonable distribution of the work load to the ag reps in the province, and I think that you want to take into consideration that at Brandon and at Dauphin you have the assistance of the Extension specialists to help carry out the program that the ag reps in these various regions carry on.

We're not saying i.t's perfect, and I think when I spoke about this initially that I said that it was subject to revision at all times, but at the present time that's the way it stands. -- (Interjection) -- You're not nearly as bad off as the Member 'for St. George. MR. WAGNER: Surely, Mr; Chairman, when the ag rep from Arborg has to go way down to Hecla Island and then come back around Poplarfield to Fisher Branch to Red Rose, that is a large territory-to cover. I venture to guess 300 miles one way. MR. GUTTORMSON: I could drive 300 miles in our ag rep's area too. MR.

TANCHAK: I would like the Minister to tell me how many units -- farms the ag rep in Emerson constituency, that's centered at Vita' -- how many unit farms does he serve? MR. HUTTON: 1540; MR. TANCHAK: Pardon? MR. HUTTON : 1540. MR. TANCHAK: 1504. So that suggests that he is terribly overworked and I have to give him credit. We've got practically one of the best ag reps in the'Province of Manitoba. He's doing a wonderful job with the 4-H Clubs and all the other clubs; but I suggest that he should have a helper.

Last year when I brought this up the former Minister told rrie -- this was his answer -- when I asked him for that he says, "you go back home and you '11 find out that there is another man appointed there." Well I did and there was one, an assistant. But what happened to him now? -- (Interjection) -- And by the way where's Dauphin? MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, I understand that some members want assi stants, and we haven't got even an ag rep. MR. ROBLIN: I hope the honourable member doesn't take his usual length of time be cause it's almost eleven o'clock. MR. SHOEMAKER: I'll be brief, Mr.

Chairman, because I have nothing but commenda tion for the ag reps by and large. I've worked with the ag rep at Neepawa considerably. I've been out with him until midnight on several occasions; I've been out with htm on Sunday; and when the Honourable Minister has suggested that the ag reps were run ragged or run off their feet or something of that nature I agree with him. The ag reps are assuming new duties all the time too, and I don't think the Minister touched on that. There is an increasing number of new duties for the ag reps to do and that simply means that they are overworked.

Since the introduction of Farm Credit Flan and other things it has added to their work considerably. In my own constituency I feel that the area is altogether too large. I think that it should -- we should have an assistant there. We definitely need an assistant there, either that or the area reduced in size and another one established at Neepawa. MR. HUTTON : Mr. Chairman, I have a proposition to make to the member for Glad stone. There's a question of space that is of importance at Neepawa and we are considering an assistant for, I believe it's Minnedosa, and I would make a deal with him.

If he will allow the home economist to move over to Minnedosa we'll put the assis tant in at Neepawa. MR. HRYHORC ZUK: Mr. Chairman, just a moment please. I'm informed that some of the ag reps, i.f not all of them, are doing social work in the Province of Manitoba, that they interview old age pensioners or pensioners around 65 to 70 to obtain certain information asked for by the Department of Health. -- (Interjection) -- They did within the last month unless i.t's February 18th, 1960 Page 727

(!VIr. Hryhorczuk, cont'd. ) ••• been changed just within the last few days. But I was just won dering, Mr. Chairman, whether they intend to extend the responsibilities of the ag reps into this social allowance field, because if they do you'll have to have more than one assistant in each of the districts. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, this is the item I think under which we asked former ly the question about assistance to the agricultural museum. Is the Minister in a position to tell us if the province is still supporting the agricultural museum at Austin?

And can he tell us any thing about their situation with regard to a grant by the Federal Government as well? MR. HUTTON: That matter is under consideration. At the present time the department is co-opera ting with the group at Austin and there is nothing concrete come of it as yet. I will endeavour overnight to gather together all the available information to date. -- (Interjection) - Yes, with regard to it. MR. CHAIRMAN: (

b) passed; (

c) passed; No. 5 passed. Resolution 29 -- Agricultural Development, $554, 860, passed. MR. CAMPB ELL: Mr . Chairman, I think that the Minister is bringing down some fur ther information on those items. � R. ROBLIN: We've made such excellent progress thafi think we ought to rise and report. MR. CHAIRMAN: And in addition to that we have decided that Manitoba has sowed the last of its wild oats. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions and have directed me to report the same and ask leave to sit again. MR. W. G. MARTIN (St. Matthews) : Mr .

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the .Bonourable Member for Winnipeg Centre, that the report of the committee be received. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. ROBLIN: Mr . Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce , that the House do now adjourn. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House adjourned until 2:30 Friday afternoon. Page 728 February 18th, 1960

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-2-23a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 2nd hansardpdf 23a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	34c9df6bd1a2b315db4fd595680f6b7800e370e3

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