Manitoba Committee Hansard — 7 June 2004 (Legislative Affairs Committee, Sitting 06, 38th Legislature, 2nd Session)

38-2-la06

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs Chairperson Mr. Daryl Reid Constituency of Transcona Vol. LV No. 6 - 6:30 p.m., Monday, June 7, 2004 ISSN 1708-668X

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon Riel N.D.P. VACANT Minto MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon.

Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. VACANT Turtle Mountain WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

181 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS Monday, June 7, 2004 TIME – 6:30 p.m. LOCATION – Winnipeg, Manitoba CHAIRPERSON – Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona) VICE-CHAIRPERSON – Ms. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Fort Garry) ATTENDANCE - 11 – QUORUM - 6 Members of the Committee present: Hon. Messrs. Bjornson, Lemieux, Robinson, Hon. Ms. Wowchuk Mr. Cummings, Ms. Irvin-Ross, Messrs. Maguire, Martindale, Penner, Reid, Mrs. Taillieu Substitutions: Hon. Ms. Allan for Hon. Ms. Wowchuk at 6:57 p.m. Mr. Schuler for Mr. Cummings at 8:46 p.m. APPEARING: Mr. Lamoureux, MLA for Inkster Mrs.

Stefanson, MLA for Tuxedo WITNESSES: Bill 27–The Agricultural Societies Act Ms. Lynda Witty, President, Manitoba Associ- ation of Agricultural Societies Bill 19–The Public Schools Amendment Act Mr. Brian Ardern, President, Manitoba Teachers' Society Bill 25–The Amusements Amendment Act Ms. Maureen Wilson, Private Citizen Ms. Marianne Cerilli, Private Citizen Ms. Beverley Ridd, Private Citizen Bill 30–The Safe Schools Charter (Various Acts Amended) Mr. Roland Pokorny, Private Citizen Mr. Edward Lipsett, Manitoba Association for Rights and Liberties WRITTEN SUBMISSIONS: Bill 19–The Public Schools Amendment Act Mr.

Wilfred McKay, Rolling River First Nation Ms. Lori Johnson, Winnipeg School Division Bill 25–The Amusements Amendment Act Mr. Lanny McInnes, Retail Council of Canada MATTERS UNDER DISCUSSION: Bill 19–The Public Schools Amendment Act Bill 25–The Amusements Amendment Act Bill 27–The Agricultural Societies Act Bill 30–The Safe Schools Charter (Various Acts Amended) Bill 32–The Provincial Railways Amendment Act Bill 36–The Highway Traffic Amendment Act Bill 37–The Labour Relations Amendment Act * * * Mr. Chairperson: Good evening, everyone. Will the Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs please come to order.

This meeting has been called to consider the following bills: Bill 19, The Public Schools Amendment Act; Bill 25, The Amusements Amendment Act; Bill 27, The Agricultural Societies Act; Bill 30, The Safe Schools Charter (Various Acts Amended); Bill 32, The Provincial Railways Amendment Act; Bill 36, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act; and Bill 37, The Labour Relations Amendment Act. We have a number of presenters who are registered to speak this evening, and their names, I

182 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 2004 believe, are posted on the board at the back. I can also read them for the record. On Bill 19, we have Brian Ardern, President, Manitoba Teachers' Society. On Bill 25, we have Maureen Wilson, private citizen; Marianne Cerilli, private citizen; and Bev Ridd, private citizen. On Bill 27, we have Lynda Witty, Manitoba Association of Agricultural Societies. On Bill 30, we have Roland Pokorny, private citizen; Edward Lipsett, Manitoba Association for Rights and Liberties. On Bill 36, we have David Grant, private citizen.

If there are any other individuals wishing to make a presentation this ev ening, please see the staff at the back of the room, and they will add your name to the list. For the information of all presenters, 20 copies of any of your versions of presentations are required. If you need help with photocopying, please speak with one of our staff. As well, I would like to inform presenters that, in accordance with our rules, a time limit of 10 minutes has been allotted for presentations, with another 5 minutes allowed for questions and answers to occur.

Also, in accordance with our rules, if a presenter is not in attendance when their name is called they will be dropped to the bottom of the list. If the presenter is not in attendance when their name is called for a second time, their name will be removed from the presenters list. Written submissions have been received and distributed as follows: two submissions on Bill 19 from the Rolling River First Nation and the Winnipeg School Division, and a submission on Bill 25 from the Retail Council of Canada.

Does this committee agree to have these documents appear in the Hansard transcript of this meeting? [Agreed] On the topic of determining the order of public presentations, I will note that we do have an out-of- town presenter in attendance marked with an asterisk on the list. In what order does the committee wish to hear presentations here this evening? Ms. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Fort Garry): I would like Bill 27, The Agricultural Societies Act, in its entirety, presenters first and then clause-by-clause, and then do the remaining bills in order. Mr.

Chairperson: It has been suggested that we commence with Bill 27 in its entirety, starting with the presenter, and then proceed to the bills as they are listed on the order paper. Is that agreed? [Agreed] I would also like to inform all in attendance of the provisions in our rules regarding the hour of adjournment. Except by unanimous consent, a standing committee meeting to consider a bill in the evening must not sit past midnight to hear presenta- tions unless fewer than 20 presenters are registered to speak to all of the bills being considered when the committee meets at 6:30 p.m.

As of 6:30 p.m. this evening, there were eight persons registered to speak to these bills. Therefore, in accordance with our rules, this committee may sit past midnight to hear presentations. What is the will of the committee? Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that at midnight we review whether there is need to continue after midnight. Mr. Chairperson: It has been suggested that this committee review the sitting time at the midnight hour. Is that agreeable to the committee? [Agreed] Thank you, to the committee.

Prior to proceeding with public presentations, I would like to advise members of the public regarding the process for speaking in committee. The proceed- ings of our meeting are recorded in order to provide a verbatim transcript. Each time someone wishes to speak, whether it be an MLA or a presenter, I have to first say the person's name. This is a signal for the Hansard recorder behind us here to turn on and off the microphones that you will see around the table and at the podium. Bill 27–The Agricultural Societies Act Mr.

Chairperson: I thank each and every member here for their patience, and we will now proceed with the public presentations, beginning with Bill 27. We

June 7, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 183 have Lynda Witty, Manitoba Association of Agri- cultural Societies. Ms. Witty, will you please come forward. Do you have a presentation you wish to have distributed? Ms. Lynda Witty (President, Manitoba Asso- ciation of Agricultural Societies): Yes, it is being distributed right now. Mr. Chairperson: If you wait a moment please, until some are distributed. I hope I have pronounced your name right. Ms. Witty: Yes. Mr. Chairperson: Please proceed when you are ready. Ms.

Witty: My name is Lynda Witty, and I am the president of the Manitoba Association of Agri- cultural Societies, and I would like to thank you for offering me the opportunity to address you this evening. The Manitoba Association of Agricultural Socie- ties, which I am now going to refer to as MAAS, would like to submit our report for the passing of The Agricultural Societies Act, or Bill 27, on behalf of the agricultural societies of Manitoba.

Because of a series of issues that were brought forward by agricultural societies, the current act was discussed at sessions during the 2001 and the 2002 annual conferences of agricultural societies with the recommendation that MAAS request a formal review and revision of the act. It was seen that revising the act would suggest a number of benefits. Agricultural societies have been active in communities for many years. Many have celebrated over 100 years of activity.

A new act, recognizing the changes in our communities and allowing the agricultural societies to be a part of the leadership and community development, will be seen as a positive step. Agricultural societies want a simpler process for grants. This would make it easier for the volunteers in the agricultural societies to get their allotted funds and use them for a wider variety of educational activities or events in their communities.

Agricultural societies can also help as partners with Manitoba Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives staff in delivering programs and services in the communities. * (18:40) With the new act, agricultural societies would be able to be seen as an active and dedicated organiza- tion in the community with a strong number of volunteers who have the best interests of their community at heart. With support from the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives (Ms. Wowchuk) in carrying out a review with agricultural societies, the MAAS board of directors established the following process.

The current act was sent to all agricultural societies and offices in 2002, requesting comments on the act. The MAAS board of directors personally called all the agricultural societies' secretaries and presidents as a follow-up, making sure they had all received their packages of information and offering to hold district meetings for discussion if required; 22 out of the current 62 societies responded with written comments and there was one district meeting held in Neepawa with 5 agricultural societies being represented there.

The MAAS board met in the 2002 year to review the comments and the act, incorporating comments from the various agricultural societies as well as the MAAS board. These suggested changes were re-sent to all agricultural societies and the Manitoba Agriculture offices asking for additional comments; seven societies and one office responded with written comments. The MAAS board met again and incorporated the comments into a final draft. Once the act was formally redrafted, it was reviewed a third time by the MAAS board.

In conclusion, it is felt by the Manitoba Association of Agricultural Societies that the new act will be a benefit to Manitoba agricultural societies and we wish to formally acknowledge our support to the passing of Bill 27. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much for your presentation. Are there any questions of the presenter? Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Since there are no questions from other committee members, I would like to take this opportunity on behalf of the committee and on behalf of the department to thank

184 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 2004 you and the members of the ag society who have worked with the department through this whole process of drafting and coming back with your comments. We hope these changes will meet the needs of the societies across the province. Thank you for coming into the city to make your presentation. Ms. Witty: Thank you very much. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. Are there any other presenters to Bill 27? Seeing no other presenters then, as previously agreed, we will proceed to clause by clause of Bill 27. Does the minister responsible for Bill 27 have an opening statement? Ms.

Wowchuk: Thank you. I would just take a few minutes to comment on the bill and indicate to members of the committee that ag societies play a very important role. For many years, as our presenter said, the ag societies have been in place, in some cases for 100 years. They have played a role in carrying on a variety of community activities. I want to recognize the many volunteers who give of their time to ensure that ag societies are successful.

This bill replaces The Agricultural Societies Act in a more modernized way and really gives the societies opportunity to become involved in different activities and bring more flexibility to their organization. Just with those few words, I would, again, like to reiterate my comments and recognize the staff of the Department of Agri culture, Food and Rural Initiatives for the work they have done in consulta- tion and the many people who have been involved in modernizing this act and making it more flexible for the people involved in societies. I hope to see the number of ag societies grow in this province. Mr.

Chairperson: We thank the honourable minister. Does the critic for the official opposition have an opening statement? Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairperson. Very briefly, I want to, first of all, thank Ms. Witty for bringing forward their thoughts on how a new act should be drafted. Having been a president of an ag society for better than a decade myself, I have a great deal of appreciation for the people who let their names stand for boards of directors in ag societies.

I also want to commend the ag societies in general for the tremendous amount of work they do in areas such as research, community development, and I refer only to the Alt ona ag society, when I was the president of that society, when we decided to take it upon ourselves to build a community hall and the tremendous amount of community involvement that happened during that process and the exercise. That hall stands today and has become the pivotal point of the development of a community centre that is second to none in the province of Manitoba.

It includes now a skating arena, a hockey arena, a curling rink, general conference area and a number of other facilities attached to that centre. I think that is just a demonstration of how an active ag society can have a tremendous influence on the development of a community that has an intergraded community for both rural and urban.

I want to commend the ag societies for having played a pivotal role in development of fairs, community activities and, es pecially, in the areas of research and ensuring that our young people, through such things as 4-H and calf clubs and other things, can learn how to participate in a meaningful way in rural and urban communities. So, again, thank you. We would encourage the minister to quick passage of this bill. I understand that there will be an amendment. We had also drafted an amendment to

section 7. I understand that we were thinking along the same lines. Maybe we should have discussed it before we each proceeded to draft, but we concur with the amendment that is being brought forward. Mr. Chairperson: I think, Mr. Maguire, you have had your hand up to wish to speak, but at this point it is the opening statements by both the minister and the critic for the official opposition. You would require leave of the committee to add a comment at this time unless you wish to add your comments on the clause by clause. An Honourable Member: Later. Mr. Chairperson: Later, okay, thank you. We will now proceed to thank the honourable Mr. Penner for his comments.

June 7, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 185 We will now proceed to clause by clause. Clause 1–pass; clause 2–pass; clauses 3 and 4– pass; clause 5–pass; clause 6–pass. Shall Clause 7 pass? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, we have an amend- ment to clause 7. As the Member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) indicated, both of us in discussion recognized that this is a place that we should make a change, and so I have an amendment to this clause. I move THAT Clause 7 of the Bill be amended (

a) by renumbering it as Clause 7(1); (

b) by striking out "100" and substituting "50"; and (

c) by adding the following as Clause 7(2): Minister's approval for a headquarters within 50 km 7(2) Despite subsection (1), the minister may, on request from the persons who wish to organize a society, permit the society's headquarters to be closer than 50 km to the headquarters of another society. Mr. Chairperson: It has been moved by the honourable Ms. Wowchuk THAT Clause 7 of the Bill be amended (

a) by renumbering it as clause– An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Chairperson: Dispense. The motion is in order. Any comments, questions? Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Chairperson, just a quick question to the minister. The Manitoba Association of Agricultural Societies, would they have been aware of this particular amendment? * (18:50) Ms. Wowchuk: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairperson: Any further comments or questions?

Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the amendment? [Agreed] Clause 7 as amended–pass; clause 8–pass; clauses 9 and 10–pass; clau se 11–pass; clauses 12 and 13–pass; clause 14–pass; clause 15–pass; clause 16–pass; clauses 17 to 19 –pass; clause 20–pass; clauses 21 to 23–pass; clauses 24 and 25–pass; clauses 26 and 27 –pass; clause 28 –pass; clause 29– pass. Shall clauses 30 to 33 pass? An Honourable Member: No. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, I have an amend- ment to clause 33. Mr.

Chairperson: Before we proceed then, is it the will of the committee to pass the previous clauses: clauses 30, 31 and 32? [Agreed] Clause 30–pass; clause 31–pass; clause 32–pass. Madam Minister, on clause 33. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, I move THAT Clause 33(2) of the Bill be amended by striking out "classes of societies" and substituting "associations". Mr. Chairperson: The amendment is in order. It has been moved by the honourable Ms. Wowchuk THAT Clause 33(2) of the Bill be amended by striking out "classes of societies" and substituting "associations". Is the committee ready for the question?

Some Honourable Members: Question. Mr. Chairperson: The question before the com- mittee is as follows: It has been moved by the honourable Ms. Wowchuk THAT Clause 33(2) of the Bill be amended by striking out "classes of societies"– An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Chairperson: Dispense.

186 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 2004 Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the amendment? [Agreed] Clause 33 as amended–pass. Shall clauses 34 to 36 pass? Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): I just wanted to make a comment before we pass the remaining parts of the bill that it was a pleasure for me to attend the Premier's (Mr. Doer) Recognition Awards Dinner this year. I would just like to make a note that the Manitoba Agricultural Societies was the association that was awarded that honour this year. Mr.

David Hicks from Boissevain, an ag society member of long standing, was there to receive the award. Recognition was well given and just a great tribute to the organization, the association that has done so much work for communities in Manitoba. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Clauses 34 to 36–pass; table of contents–pass; enacting clause–pass; title–pass. Bill be reported as amended. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairperson, I would just like to take this opportunity to thank the members of the committee for recognizing that there were people from out of town presenting and also for recognizing my personal

schedule and for making the allowance to have this bill passed in its entirety before we got to the other bill. Thank you very much. Committee Substitution Ms. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Fort Garry): With leave of the committee, I would like to make the following membership substitution: Effective immediately for the Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs, St. Vital the honourable Ms. Allan for Swan River for the honourable Ms. Wowchuk. Mr. Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee to proceed with the substitution? [Agreed] Ms. Wowchuk: Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Minister.

Bill 19–The Public Schools Amendment Act Mr. Chairperson: The next bill in consideration of the committee is Bill 19, The Public Schools Amendment Act. We have a presenter, Brian Ardern, president of the Manitoba Teachers' Society. Mr. Ardern, would you come forward please. Good evening, Mr. Ardern. You may proceed when you are ready, sir. Mr. Brian Ardern (President, Manitoba Teachers' Society): My name is Brian Ardern. I am the president of the Manitoba Teachers' Society, and represent 14 000 public school teachers in the province.

This evening I am going to restrict my com- ments on this bill to the changes being made to

section 92 of The Public Schools Act. Teachers employed by Manitoba school divi- sions sign contracts with their employers. These contracts set out some basic terms of employment for teachers. However, it is our collective agreements in 39 school divisions in Manitoba which cover salaries, rights and working conditions for our members. Teachers on permanent contract sign what is called a Form 2 contract. It is called that because it is Form 2 in the

schedule attached to The Public Schools Act. Teachers who are hired on term contracts sign a Form 2A contract. The Form 2A contract is not part of the

schedule of The Public Schools Act, and, as you will see later, that is important. Form 2A contracts were introduced about 25 y e a r s a g o . A t t h a t t i m e , F o r m 2 A o r t e r m c o n t r a c t s for teachers had a specifi c purpose. According to Maureen Hemphill, Minister of Education at the time, they were to be used when permanent teachers were on leave such as lengthy sick leaves, sabbaticals, unpaid leaves of absence, maternity leaves or deferred salary leaves. Unfortunately, regulations to clearly define the use of 2A or term contracts were never put in place.

This has led to serious abuses in some school divisions. The most common form of abuse is the use of term contracts to indefinitely extend a teacher's probationary period. In some school divisions, teachers have been on revolving term contracts for five years or more. This denies our members the benefit of due process. We believe that teachers should have the same protections other workers enjoy under The Labour Relations Act.

June 7, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 187 Attempts to correct these problems through collective bargaining have failed. For example, in some divisions the collective agreement says that after two years on a 2A contract, a teacher hired for a third year must be given a permanent contract. Now, teachers are routinely hired on 2A contracts for their first two years without regard to whether or not they are replacing another teacher on leave. These teachers work for two years, only to find that when their second term contract expires, the division may arbitrarily decide not to offer them a permanent contract.

Because teachers have no right to due process until one year and one day after they are on a permanent contract, some teachers work three years and are then let go, two years on term contracts and one year on a permanent contract. * (19:00) Recently, teachers in one division who had taught on 2A contracts for two years were denied a third permanent contract when they became pregnant. This was the only reason these women were not given permanent contracts. They had stellar evaluations and recommendations for renewal.

After the society filed grievances, the school division backed off and offered these teachers permanent contracts. However, in the 21st century, it is shameful that any woman has to face losing her job because she becomes pregnant. Still, today, teachers in this division are often advised to hide any evidence of pregnancy as long as possible. The amendments that you are considering to

section 92 of The Public Schools Act will help address these abuses. Manitoba teachers are hopeful that once this legislation is passed, the minister will immediately put in place regulations governing the use of contracts for teachers that will prevent the abuses our members have experienced. These regulations should clearly state that Form 2A contracts, or term contracts, may only be used when a teacher is hired to replace a permanent teacher on leave. A school division should not have more teachers on Form 2A contracts than it has teachers on leaves.

No teacher may be on a Form 2A contract in the same division for more than two consecutive years. If staff reductions become necessary for any reasons, there are provisions for layoffs in every collective agreement and there should be penalties for abuses. I would also like to briefly mention substitute teachers. As a result of changes to our bargaining legislation in 2001, local teacher associations were required to apply to the Manitoba Labour Board for bargaining certificates.

As part of this process in 2002, several of our local associations sought declarations from the Labour Board that substitute teachers be included in our bargaining units. In January of 2003, the board issued an order stating that substitute teachers were not included in local teachers associations' bargaining certificates. The board stated that they were not part of the bargaining unit because they were not employed under a written contract under

section 92 of The Public Schools Act, which I referenced earlier. This same

section is under consideration today. This decision was made despite the fact that the board recognized that substitute teachers are qualified teachers and that rates of pay for substitute teachers are contained in all but one of the collective agreements in the province. After more than 40 years of bargaining for substitute teachers, the society believed that there was voluntary recognition that substitute teachers were part of our bargaining units.

We appealed this Labour Board decision and whatever the outcome of this appeal, it is certain that the decision will be appealed, and then the subsequent decision will be appealed to a higher court after that. In the meantime, four of our local teachers associations have signed up their substitute teachers and made applications to the Labour Board to form separate bargaining units for these substitute teachers. Substitutes have been eager to sign up in separate bargaining units if that is what they have to do. Labour Board hearings began in April, and additional hearing dates are scheduled.

It is quite possible that whatever the outcome, this decision will also be appealed. If the Labour Board grants substitute teachers separate bargaining certificates, they will be entitled to all the rights under The Labour Relations Act including the right to strike. This is an inefficient approach. Substitute teachers want to be part of the Manitoba Teachers' Society. Substitute teachers have

188 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 2004 always considered themselves as part of the Manitoba Teachers' Society. In fact, despite the ruling of the Labour Board, we are still providing services to substitute teachers. However, the extent that we can do that is extremely limited. Our ability to protect and extend the welfare of our members is a function of our ability to bargain on their behalf. It is a fundamental tenet of labour law. The Rand Formula was put in place so that even people who did not want to join a union would pay union dues if they benefited from the union's efforts.

In our case, substitute teachers want to be part of our union, but we cannot act on their behalf. It is ironic, after all the discussion about the floodway labour agreement and forced unionization, that we have teachers who want to be part of a union and cannot. A substitute teacher who is disciplined unfairly or has an unreasonable complaint against him or her would only have recourse through the courts. They would not have recourse through the collective agreement. In effect, our substitute teachers are being treated as second-class citizens.

The Manitoba Teachers' Society believes in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms to provide freedom of association to all Canadians. All teachers, including substitute teachers, should have the right to be represented collectively by their association. Currently, applications are before the labour relations board for four bargaining units. However, there are 39 school divisions with substitute teachers. If substitutes are organized separately, it will mean the school boards will have an extra round of bargaining, time that trustees and superintendents could better spend addressing the needs of students.

Teachers will bargain under The Public Schools Act, while substitutes will bargain under The Labour Relations Act, with the right to strike. My point this evening is that we can wait and see what the labour relations board and the courts will do, or the minister can issue a written contract for substitutes, a power he already has. This will make substitute teachers members of the Manitoba Teachers' Society under the

definitions contained in The Public Schools Act. As a result of the amendment in Bill 19, the minister will have the power to make appropriate regulations that govern the use of substitute teachers' contracts. There is a better, simpler way; 2A contracts and the rights of our substitute teachers are critical concerns for our members. The amendment in Bill 19, if the needed regulations are proclaimed, will help address these concerns. However, an alternate and more effective way to correct this problem is to eliminate all teacher contracts and place teachers under The Labour Relations Act.

Teachers will then be treated like all other employees in Manitoba and like most other teachers in the country. Matters currently contained in contracts will then become matters subject to collective bargaining, which is where they belong. This would be a streamlined and long-term way to stop the abuse of 2A contracts and result in substitute teachers being the same bargaining unit as teachers. As well, this solution will solve a host of other issues concerning teachers' contracts. Thank you for the opportunity to present our views this evening. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. Ardern.

Any questions, comments by members of the committee? Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): Thank you for taking the time to be here tonight, Mr. Ardern. Have a good evening. Mr. Chairperson: Any other comments, questions? Seeing none, thank you, Mr. Ardern, for your presentation here this evening. Before we proceed, are there any other presenters for Bill 19? Seeing no other presentations, then we will proceed with Bill 25. Bill 25–The Amusements Amendment Act Mr. Chairperson: The first person listed for presentations under Bill 25 is Maureen Wilson. Ms.

Wilson, are you in the audience? Please come forward. Do you have a written presentation? Ms. Maureen Wilson (Private Citizen): Yes.

June 7, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 189 Mr. Chairperson: You may proceed when you are ready, Ms. Wilson. Ms. Wilson: Good evening, and thank you for affording me this opportunity to speak to you tonight. As a parent and video game consumer, I have a vested interest in the topic of violent video games and felt it was important to speak to you tonight on the issue in support of new regulations.

When I was young, the debate about video games surrounded whether or not children could hurt their eyes looking at the TV for too long, and the hand-eye co-ordination aspect of playing was always offered up as a positive attribute. For several years, video games were the domain of children and there was a very small adult audience. Perhaps this began to change earlier, but in 1987 a game called Leisure Suit Larry , a personal computer game with adult and suggestive themes, was released.

In my mind, this is a benchmark for a change from video games becoming just for children into video games being developed for an adult audience. I would hazard to guess that the majority of people my age have played video games or still play video games on occasion, as I do with my own son. Now there is a substantial market for adult-themed video games, as all of us who grew up with this emerging technology have aged.

Together with the successive generations of gamers, we feed a $30- billion-a-year industry, a figure which now surpasses movie revenues. * (19:10) This issue, as I see it, partly involves the need to draw a distinction between games marketed to children who are 17 and under and games marketed to adults, 18 and over. Marketing is the responsibility of the gaming industry. However, a 2001 report conducted by the Federal Trade Commission found that: 1.

The companies in those entertainment industries still routinely target children under 17 in their marketing of products which their own rating systems deemed inappropriate or warrant parental caution due to violent content." 2.

"The FTC found evidence of marketing and media plans that expressly target children under 17, and promote and advertise products in media outlets most likely to reach children under 17." For example, action figures such as those tattoos, Spiderman, the Hulk or any number of other themes which are designed for children six years and older can be based on "R" rated movies or "M" rated video games. Self-regulation by the industry seems pointless to me when on one hand they claim to be protecting children from violent material while on the other they are still actively marketing violence to children.

When I, as a parent, am told I am solely responsible for what kind of media enters my home, I find the marketing techniques developed by the industry to circumvent its own rating system a hindrance. I am in charge of instilling the correct values and morals in my child, while others spend enormous amounts of money trying to get my son's business, not my own. The Retail Council of Canada has developed a program called Commitment to Parents, which has been running in British Columbia for three years.

The Commitment to Parents program sounds good, partly because it includes major retailers and will be able to run a bigger and more widespread informa- tion campaign than any regular non-governmental organization would ever be able to conduct. However, I do not think the program can stand alone as a viable alternative to legislation. The Commitment to Parents program is entirely voluntary. Retailers may feel some pressure from the Retail Council of Canada to sign on but ultimately the decision rests with each retailer who sells or rents video games.

Consumers have been told by the Retail Council of Canada that the reason these disturbing games remain in stores is because there is a market. Yes, there is a market, and I believe that if kids get ID'd at Zellers or Wal-Mart they will quickly find the nearest retailer who can still be legally selling inappropriate material to minors. To me, a plan which only includes some retailers makes no sense. Regulation is a simple way to ensure that every retailer follows the same guideline.

A non-released survey conducted by the Manitoba Film and Classification Board in 1999 pointed to difficulty in keeping ESRB initiative

190 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 2004 brochures and other informational material in stock and available to the public. In his

summary, the Manitoba Film Classification Board inspector found that, "Most places did not follow the ESRB rating guide but had their own policy. They would sell to anyone because there is no regulation in place and, if they did not, someone else would." "The retailer generally handled complaints them- selves. There is no local Manitoba number on the ESRB material. This is probably the reason we have not received any complaints at the Manitoba Film Classification Board." "Basic concerns expressed are they, the retailers, would like to have posters or something permanent to display.

Brochures, countertops, all get lost. They would like to see the Manitoba Film Classification Board phone number on the material." Still, the goal is to change the way violent materials are marketed and to provide parents with the information they need to make informed choices about what their children watch or play. The Retail Council of Canada has indicated that no matter the outcome of this legislation, they still intend to introduce the Commitment to Parents program nationwide.

I applaud this effort, and I think that new regulations in tandem with a fresh information campaign will send a powerful message to parents and the larger community that violent entertainment does not belong in the hands of children. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Ms. Wilson, for your presentation. Are there questions from committee members? Mr. Martindale. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): No. I was signalling the page. Mr. Chairperson: Sorry. Any questions from committee members? Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): Ms.

Wilson, thank you very much for your presentation this evening. I believe it is important for all retailers and parents, and others, to be responsible to our children in our province. We believe that this legislation will ensure that throughout the province of Manitoba. We also believe that parents will have that knowledge, hopefully, that violent or sexually explicit video games will not be sold or rented to their children. So we are hopeful that this is a positive step forward in meeting that.

We also believe that this legislation provides an opportunity for parents, the retailers and government to work together and protect our young children from these images that they may not be mature enough to see but, certainly, on behalf of government, I would like to thank you for your presentation, your thoughtful presentation this evening. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Ms. Wilson. The next presenter–oh, sorry, Mr. Cummings. Did you have a question? Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): I was going to ask Ms.– Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Wilson, would you mind coming back please. Thank you. Mr.

Cummings: Sorry, I was asleep at the switch. I wondered if you felt that there appears to be sufficient opportunity for enforcement of what happens in retail outlets to support this legislation. Ms. Wilson: I believe that without the legislation there will be no changes made to industry and there will be no change to the retail market as a whole without regulation, which allows for fines to be imposed upon a retailer.

As far as I understand, the Retail Council of Canada's program will put that responsibility on the employee who makes the sale at the point of sale and not on the industry or the retailer as a whole. Mr. Cummings: Thank you, Ms. Wilson. Mr. Chairperson: Any other questions? None? Okay, then we will proceed to the next presenter. The next one on my list is Ms. Cerilli. Please come forward. Good evening. Do you have a written presentation for the committee? Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Private Citizen): I did not get it photocopied, so you are just going to have to listen. I am just going to arrange my– Mr.

Chairperson: Good evening. You may proceed when you are ready. Ms. Cerilli: Thank you. I am really pleased to join you tonight to see this legislation come to fruition. It has been a long time in the works.

June 7, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 191 I just want to let you know that I am actually here representing the Violence Is Not Child's Play Coalition, which is a spin-off of the Project Peacemakers group which has done a number of great things including pr eparing a peace curriculum for Grades 5 to 8. They did a petition in 2002 on this issue which had over 30 organizations onside and sign on, such organizations as the Manitoba Association of School Trustees, the Child Guidance Clinic, a number of school divisions, the family physicians association, New Directions and a couple of hundred individuals.

So we are here representing many more than just us three. So we applaud the legislation and that Manitoba government is leading the way nationally on this issue and along with Nova Scotia. I am not going to do a comparison tonight with the Nova Scotia legislation which was just tabled a couple of weeks ago on the same issue, but that would be an interesting exercise. What we are wanting to recog- nize is that you are seeing that there is a negative socialization aspect to violence as entertainment and that these video games deserve some positive action. The various coalition members you have already heard from.

Maureen will be dealing with a whole variety of issues. The thing that I am going to focus on specifically is how to make this legislation as current, as relevant and as preventable as possible. We really want to emphasize that we want to focus on prevention and not just punitive measures in the legislation. So what does this legislation do? It does three things. It puts the video games under the regulatory framework of the Film Classification Board, but it does not specify what that framework would be.

As you have already heard from Maureen, we have some concerns about that, that the ESRB classifica- tion is just going to be adopted. The second thing that the legislation does is it allows for the government to adopt the classification system of another jurisdiction. We are concerned that the industry standard or existing voluntary system is simply going to be adopted. We see that meetings such as we are having here tonight are crucial to the process of social change and de-escalating violence. We want to encourage that the Minister of Culture (Mr.

Robinson) and his colleagues from across Canada as well as their officials continue to meet to ensure that the community is engaged in this issue. We would also like to see issues of violence as entertainment, domestic violence and community violence on the Premier's agenda for First Ministers' meetings. The third thing that this legislation does is it allows the government to re strict and guide the sale of violent video games to children. That is the big thing that it does that we are very pleased with.

We are also concerned that there is confusion among the public about the difference between a rating system for CDs, compact disc movies and video movies and a system for regulating video games. So we want to flag that one. * (19:20) I just want to do a little brief why this is so important. I have been working on this issue for probably about six years, and I see it as a huge issue. We are trying to keep up with a very fast advancing industry. The electronic media that is being sold to the community, particularly kids, is rapidly chang- ing, as you heard Maureen reference.

The habitual video-game playing by kids who are abused, neglected, bullied and otherwise vulnerable due to a lack of positive messages and influence is a recipe for disaster and a recipe for violence among kids and by kids. So we want to put this discussion in a wide social context by saying that we do live in a violent world, and it is difficult to raise peaceful kids in this violent world. Our culture does glorify violence as entertainment, as an acceptable way to solve problems, make decisions and to entertain ourselves.

We take exception to the idea that shooting people, fighting people, raping and killing people should be presented to kids as entertaining. Now, just let us stop for a minute and take a breath, because I do not know how many have actually seen the content of what is in these games. The ones that are coming out that are going to be at a store near you and your kids, the kids that you care about, are going to be way worse.

So, entertainment that gives points for raping prostitutes, for stealing cars, for beating people up, especially targeting certain demographics, certain ethnic groups, certain gays and lesbians, for example, or the police, I would think that we all want to not see that in the hands of kids. So that is what this is about.

192 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 2004 There was recently a book profiled in the Free Press called Who is Raising Your Child? Battling the Marketers for Your Ch ild's Heart and Soul . The cover says it all. It also says, "Help Kids Care Less about Things and More about People." I have other examples of what I am talking about with magazines that teach companies how to market to kids. This one is called KidScreen; about reaching children through entertainment software " There are ads in here.

"Twenty-thousand wired kids and they are all yours." So they have conferences teaching companies how to access kids as a market for selling all sorts of stuff. These games that market the conditions for bullying, violence and discrimination, making it seem normal, no big deal, or just the way things are. Kids learn what they play and kids learn from the environment they live in. If you have any doubts about the importance of this issue, go and watch the movie The Corporation. How many of you have seen that already? It has got a segment on violent entertainment that is really worth the price of admission.

So I am going to focus, as I said, on how to make this legislation preventative. What do we mean by preventative?

Well, like I said earlier, not focussing just on penalties that are levied after the fact when violent games are sold to minors in violation of the new rules, but rather, taking a broad strategy to inform and educate parents, caregivers and kids about the effects of violence as entertain- ment to counterbalance the effects of advertising, peer pressure, through media literacy and parenting skills, to recognize and counter the addictive nature of these forms of entertainment due to target marketing and their interactive nature, I am calling these video games, particularly the ones that are extremely violent, pornographic, as the crack or cocaine of the entertainment industry, stipulating the consequences that incorp orate those concepts of prevention and non-violence into the focus to change attitudes.

The legislation would be made much stronger by requiring this public education campaign and parent support. I recommend to the committee to add these changes as an amendment to the legislation. So making an amendment that would also require there be an attached media literacy parent education program and we are also, at the end, going to recommend some research to go along with this legislation into the addictive nature of violent video games. Just today, I was ad hoc talking to someone on the phone, a friend, telling them what I was doing tonight.

They were talking about a teenager, of a friend they know, who is definitely hooked on these games. They play them compulsively. They do not want to go to school anymore. Their grades are falling. They are not doing anything else, like playing soccer, or doing any other kind of fun things that kids do, because they are hooked on playing video games. So here are some ideas for the legislation. This legislation is a shell, and the important regulations will have to address the following: a. Clear information about the content of games available to parents, guardians and kids.

Large stickers with rating information about the contents of the games on all games, new and used. The posters, Internet information, and I also have a copy of the study that was done by the Film Classification Board in 1999 that found that the existing voluntary system is not being adhered to, and why this legislation is so necessary. b. Clear instructions for retailers about how to separate the games, disp lay and store the games, so little ones are not exposed to the ads, the toys, the target marketing an d the propaganda.

Being exposed to these games does allow the discus- sion between a parent and a kid to occur about multi-media nature of this industry, and it is overwhelming to children and many parents. It is tough to compete for your child's attention as a parent with multinational companies. They have a larger staff and a much bigger budget for advertising. c. Information to parents, teachers and caregivers about why everyone needs to be concerned about violence as entertainment, and how it must be contextualized, the issue to show why it is important and why they need to be concerned about what their kids are exposed to.

This should include some information about child develop- ment, and how we learn from play and our environment. As an aside, there was just a really good conference that Healthy Child sponsored called

June 7, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 193 "Children of the Environment." There was a workshop on whole community planning that really dealt with these concepts of how understanding how kids learn from their environment. The government did sponsor that conference. d. The sales outlets must be registered with the Film Classification Board or some other governing bodies that will sell or rent these video games. This gets to the issue that Mr. Cummings was addressing. e. There needs to be regulations addressing the cross-marketing of figures, characters of violent video games to younger children.

For example, what happens is the figures from a team-rated game are marketed as toys to preschool children and primary-age children that would play with the game figures, even though they cannot actually rent those games. They are games that are intended for older kids or adults, but the target marketing is occurring through figures and toys to little wee ones. These are the tactics used by manufacturers and ma rketers to get very young children interested in these violent games, before they can rent them, and this sets up for pressure, or the nag factor, to begin using this form of entertainment. f.

We want to encourage the government to hold further public meetings on this issue, to sponsor guest speakers, and invite retailers to these educational events. We re alize that these are the ways that we are going to actually change and affect attitudes. The regulations at the retail level are something that has to also be done at the manufacturing level. There is a rule for government to invoke the hate laws with some of these games.

It is a concern when there is lots of attention to the criminal mind at the level of street crime; however, th e criminal mind that is at the level of the captain of industry, and thinks up these cool "toys" that are mass-marketed to kids is much more dangerous. g. The challenge with the new legislation also brings with it the obligation of enforcement, and we have some ideas about that. The Manitoba Film Classification Board does not have a huge ability to be proactive but, rather, will depend on a complaint system once the ratings have been given.

The legislation, theref ore, needs a mechanism for complaints from the public when sales to minors occur in violation of the regulation. This will help the public be the watchdog. This requires a mechanism for filing complaints. * (19:30) h. The other legislative issue of the "how" of the enforcement also needs to be addressed. One strategy would be licensing retailers. Then retailers could have the license to sell video games revoked. After a number of chances and a few violations, the games would not be sold or rented or marketed to kids. This adds another preventative aspect.

Perhaps, after a few chances, there could be a sign on the door that says something like, in big capital letters, "This establishment no longer is licensed to sell video games as they have been in violation of selling adult material to children," end caps. As is often the case with fiscal fines, industry is encouraged to simply see them as a cost of doing business. The deterrent nature of fines is, therefore, limited. The real goal is behaviour change and not just being caught avoiding a code. The system of fines is supported by the coalition, but it should not be the only penalty. Time?

Well, I have (h), (i ), (j), (k), (l), (

m) and (

n) to go through. Mr. Chairperson: Perhaps if I might interject at this point. We are past the allowable point in time for the presentation, which was 10 minutes, and we went well over into the 13-minute mark. I am just wonder- ing if we could get copies of your presentation that, perhaps, could be distributed to members of the committee, and then they co uld see the remainder of the points that you had listed there.

That will give us a chance to give consideration to each of those points, and then, at this time, give members of the committee the opportunity to ask any questions that you might have with respect to the presentation that has been made by Ms. Cerilli here this evening. Is that agreed? [Agreed] Mr. Lamoureux, did you have a question? Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Yes, Mr. Chairperson, I would just ask if the member would

194 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 2004 like to be able just to maybe conclude on her last points. I will put it in the form of a question, if that is okay. Ms. Cerilli: Are you asking if I would like to finish and then forfeit my time to answer questions? Mr. Lamoureux: As my question, I would ask if Ms. Cerilli would just kind of enlighten us on those last few points. Ms. Cerilli: Okay. I will just go through them in point form. Then, there will probably be a couple of minutes to answer questions. [interjection] Cannot do that? Mr. Chairperson: Just please proceed. Ms.

Cerilli: I am recommending that you adopt the idea of the "john school" and that violators of the new regulations go to, I do not know, video game school. Again, keeping in mind the preventative aspect of that, we recommend making the disclosure of the content of the games public. So, right now, the ESRB has a form that is completed. The manu- facturers actually have to disclose, but the public does not have access to that information. I will skip over (

j) because Maureen dealt with that. No. (

k) is we want to make sure that there is a citizen or community standard and not just an industry standard on this issue, that we do not just adopt the industry standard. We like the idea of the porn tax. The video game tax is a sales tax that would also get parents' attention. We do not want to see any grandfathering of old games. As I said, we realize that it is difficult to legislate culture, so we want to encourage you to do research and public education as part of the bill. Thank you very much. Mr. Chairperson: Are there any other questions of the presenter? Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Just one question.

You said that you would prefer not just to see an adoption of the ESRB ratings. What kind of rating would you prefer to see, and how would you see that evolving? Ms. Cerilli: I think that there needs to be a community standard. The ESRB is an industry standard. We did meet with the local person, who is actually a former Conservative staff researcher, interestingly enough. I thought he might be here to make a presentation. But what we want to see is that there is a community standard, and that we do not just adopt the industry standard for the games. Mrs.

Taillieu: I just want to note for the record that the gentleman from the retail sales council is out of town and he has provided a written report. I am still unclear though as to what you are looking for. Are you looking for another rating of every single video game? Ms. Cerilli: We think there are some cracks in the way the existing rating system reviews games and the actual ratings themselves. The way they set the ratings, we have seen information that it is based on a clip the ESRB gets from the manufacturer and a disclosure form. The community needs to really be able to look at that.

The other thing, when we met with the Retail Council of Canada, their interest is protecting retailers' market share, their reputation, their trustworthiness. Their stake is not in reducing violence. That is the community's interest. Do you understand what I am saying? There is a difference in what the industry standard is going to be and what a community standard is going to be. Mr. Cummings: There might be a difference of degree but I do not think there is any difference about the concern that can be raised around some of the material that is being made available in increasing numbers.

The problem I have with this bill–by the way, your presentation, I do hope you will share your (

a) to (

m) listing with us at some point. The enforcement aspect, I am afraid you could look at this bill and suggest there is a lot of nice verbiage but when the rubber hits the road there is not a whole lot happening. Would you be in favour of a more defined method of enforcement? Ms. Cerilli: I remember saying those words to you in this very room a number of times, Mr. Cummings.

June 7, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 195 I think the trend in legislation is to do more and more in the regulation part. So what we are advocating in terms of having a community standard is that there needs to be more meetings, that there needs to be some kind of community engagement and involvement in making those regulations.

I have definitely said one amendment would be to require that, so that th ere could be an amendment that would require there be those two components in the legislation, research and some kind of public engagement strategy, because that is also what is going to get parents to realize this is new. I have also raised the issue that there is going to be some confusion out there. You are going to have Johnny who, up until one week, is able to go and get certain games. Then all of a sudden there are going to be some more requirements. He is going to have to show ID.

There are going to be some new requirements on the retailer. Secondly, there is going to be then what the parents do when all of a sudden these kids do not have as much access to these games. There are going to be some interesting dynamics happening with this legislation. Mr. Cummings: When is it enough? One of the questions that was raised about this bill to me, in fact a couple of questions, came from a class of students touring this building. They were scoffing at the concept of the bill. They have other ways and means of acquiring the material without always going through your normal retail methods.

Therefore, that led me to reinforce my questioning of whether or not there should be a more definitive aspect to this bill about enforcement. Then it might go further than just laying out some broad parameters, which is what we have here, enforcement where underage are supplied, either through legal or illegal means. Drinking, smoking, pornographic material, we get onto everybody's case. This, by your own words, is heading in that direction in some cases. Does that not make sense? * (19:40) Ms. Cerilli: It is trickier, because you are regulating, as I said, culture.

You are trying to apply a mechanism that is designed for something like tobacco or alcohol in some ways, but there are all sorts of things that the government regulates that are equally as slippery. Some people have said, "Well, there is way more harmful, disgusting stuff on the Internet, which is more difficult to regulate yet." But let us do what we can. Let us do what is right in front of us.

There are other ways wher e–I have just got an ad from a magazine here that says, "To 12-year-old Lisa, he is simply 11-year-old Jenny." It has a picture of a guy on the Internet and it says, "25 percent of kids have been asked to meet someone they have met on-line." So 25 percent of kids that are in these chat rooms are being lured to meet people. So it is tough to regulate all this stuff, but we have to make an attempt. I would rather do something and see how it works than do nothing and sort of throw up our hands and say, "Well, you know, we can't do it." Mr.

Chairperson: That concludes the amount of time that we have set aside for questions and answers. Thank you, Ms. Cerilli, for your presenta- tion here this evening. If you would not mind leaving a copy, our page will take that and photocopy it, and we can distribute it to members of the committee. If you would like your original back, we can do that as well. Ms. Cerilli: Yes, I would like my original back. I can also send a copy that is a little bit less written on, but you have my scratch notes too. Thank you very much. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. The next presenter on our list is Bev Ridd. Ms.

Ridd, could you come forward please. Do you have a written presentation? Ms. Beverley Ridd (Private Citizen): I do. Mr. Chairperson: The page will help you to distribute it to committee members. Mr. Chairperson: I think we are ready. Please proceed, Ms. Ridd. Ms. Ridd: My name is Beverley Ridd. I thank you for this opportunity of speaking to the committee. I am speaking, actually, from the perspective of a parent and a grandparent. I am the mother of three children, grandmother of seven, five of whom are

196 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 2004 boys, and boys are particularly vulnerable in this whole video game world. They are the ones who do the most playing. I am also a person who has had a lifelong concern for the well-being of children. I am a graduate of the Children's Hospital of Winnipeg, and was the first director of the River Heights Family Life Centre. I became concerned about violent video games in 2001 after being asked to participate in a pre- Christmas toy store inspection.

The purpose of the inspection was to ascertain the type of toys being marketed to children that year; for example, what percentage of the toys on display encouraged violent play or depicted graphic violence. In the course of the inspection, our group visited the video game section. This was new territory for me. I was quite naive about the content of video games and what kinds of games were being sold to children. To put it mildly, I was shocked. The illustrations of violence an d explicit sexual themes, as well as the written descriptors on the boxes were an eye opener.

I did see that there was some information about a rating system explaining the meaning of the small letter on the corner of the boxes, for example, that E meant suitable for everyone. But, as these games were shelved alphabetically, an E game could be adjacent to an M, mature-rated game with a very lurid cover, many at the level of a small child. I also discovered that, unlike videos, there was no law outlawing the sale of these M-rated games to young children. It was strictly voluntary on the part of the store to refuse such sales.

I have known for many years that the way children learn about life an d society is through play. We give young children pots and pans to teach them about cooking, or miniature toolsets to give them their first experience with hammers and screw- drivers. Ms. Kerri Irvin-Ross, Vice-Chairperson, in the Chair I became very alarmed about what these violent video games were teaching young players. Also, I wondered if most parents were as ignorant as I about what their children were playing.

Since then, I have spent a lot of time reading the current research on the effects of violent video games, and speaking with parents.

In 1999, the Canadian Pediatric Society, in their position paper, Children and the Media , noted that, quote, "The influence of the media on the cycle social development of children is profound." In July 2000, four major public health groups– the American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry–issued a joint statement to the American Congress, which specifically addressed the connection between media viewing and aggressive behaviour.

This report said, in part: "Viewing entertainment violence can lead to increase in aggressive attitudes, values and behaviour, particularly in children. Its effects are measurable and long lasting. Moreover, prolonged viewing of media violence can lead to emotional desensitization toward violence in real life.

Children exposed to violence are more likely to assume that acts of violence are acceptable behaviour." The statement went on to say that, "although less research has been done on the impact of interactive entertainment such as video games, on young people, preliminary studies indicate the negative impact may be significantly more severe than that wrought by television, movies or music." The evidence of the link between viewing entertainment violence and aggressive behaviour is now indisputable. Since that statement was made, much research has been done concerning violent video games.

For example, one study carried out by Smith, Lachlan and Tamborini in 2003 entitled Popular Video Games: Quantifying the Presentation of Violence and its Context gives us some idea of the content in these games. Here are some of their findings: "Boys aged 8-18 surveyed in this research spent 40 minutes a day playing computer or video games. The number of violent interactions in a 10-minute play period ranged from 2 to 124. "Boys who play Teen- or Mature-rated games for a minimum of 40 minutes a day may witness over 180 incidents of aggression per day or 5,400 incidents per month.

June 7, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 197 "In 98 percent of the games surveyed, aggression went unpunished. In fact, in more than half the video games the perpetrators were rewarded for their aggressive actions. "Only 10 percent of all video game perpetrators possessed 'good' or 'prosocial' qualities." You can see the kind of toxic content that is in these games. Another study, Video Game Violence and Public Policy, conducted by Dr.

David Walsh, the director of the National Institute on Media and the Family, a psychologist, in a meta-analysis of 35 different studies of violent games in 2001, showed a consistent pattern of results in five areas. Exposure to violent video games increases physiological arousal. Exposure to violent video games increases aggres- sive thoughts. Exposure to violent video games increases aggressive emotions. Exposure to violent video games increases aggressive actions. Exposure to violent video games decreases positive, helping actions.

What I have not put here is there is new research that has just come out this year. It is called video game neurology where they have actually done studies that these chemical changes that take place in the brain actually change the brain itself so that, although the person playing the game may think this is fantasy, the brain thinks it is real. It is a profound experience that our children are having when they play these games.

Anderson and Dill, in their research paper, Video Games and Aggressive Thoughts , Feelings and Behaviour in the Laboratory and in Life , concludes there are some key characteristics of violent video games that suggest their dangers may well be greater than the dangers of violent television or movies. They find three reasons for this. The first concerns identification with the aggressor. You are actually the one doing the killing and the shooting.

The second reason for concern involves the active participation involved in video games, and a third reason to expect video games to have a bigger impact than television or movies involves their addictive nature. Griffith and Hunt, in 1998, found that one in five adolescents can be classified as pathologically dependent on computer games. I did a workshop with Marianne for high school students. We were shocked when one young man told us that when his parents stopped him from playing violent video games, he actually went into a depression and felt suicidal. He was that addicted.

Some recent research, as I pointed out, was disturbing. William Illsey Atkinson, writing in The Globe and Mail , Saturday, March 13, 2004, describes the findings of a new scientific discipline called video game neurology that shows how elec- tronic games affect the human brain. Neurologists discovered that playing a video game sparks a unique neurochemistry in the brain. For example, they discovered that increased activity in a brain region called the posterior cingulate proved that the images were being burned into storage as vivid, persistent and traumatic memories.

The team concluded that the children retained violent video game images in a way that could influence th eir future behaviour. In other words, their brai ns were actually being changed, as I said. Anderson and Dill conclude their study with this warning: With the recent trend toward greater realism, more graphic violence in video games and the rising popularity of these games, consumers of violent video games and parents of consumers should be aware of these risks. So the question is how can legislation help our children and parents.

Restricting the sale of mature- rated games to under age children is, obviously, a very good start and we commend the government for that, but many researchers, however, point out problems with the current entertainment software review board rating system. * (19:50) First, because the ratings are different from the current rating system for movies and videos, they can be confusing for parents. I find this when I go and speak to parents, that they are confused that we have one system for movies and one system that is on the boxes for the games.

Second, because researchers, such as those from the Harvard School of Public Health, as well as parents, frequently disagree with the appropriateness of the ratings. There is a very large study that was just done by the Harvard School of Public Health on violence in teen-rated video games and it is quite

198 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 2004 horrifying what they found in these games, that they found this was not appropriate. They did a similar one on E-rated games and, again, there was a disproportionate amount of violence to what one would want in an E-rated game, E for everyone.

Daphne White from The Lion & Lamb Project found that although E-rated game indicates that the game has content suitable for persons 6 years and older, as many as one third of all E-rated games have such violent descriptors as, quote, "animated blood and gore," "animated/pixated depictions of mutila- tion or dismemberment of body parts"–this is in an E-rated game–"realistic violence." Furthermore, parent raters for the National Institute on Media and the Family disagreed with one out of every four ratings. So you can see that the problem is profound.

The ultimate goal of the Manitoba government, we believe, should be to work toward a national enforceable rating system that is consistent with the current film classification system. That would be the way we would really like to go, for Manitoba to take the lead and work toward making a national enforceable rating system consistent with the current film classification. In the interim, it will be important to com- municate to the public the substance of any new regulations introduced. This alone can have the beneficial effect of raisin g awareness of the issue.

I find, when I speak to parents, a lot of them really do not know what is going on. Furthermore, this is another problem parents find, it would give parents who do not wish their children to play these games the information and the authority they need when speaking to other parents to prevent children from having access to games which are not allowed in their own homes. Another problem with the rating system not being visible enough, and that was mentioned, I will just mention it briefly again, video game retailers should ensure that information about any rating system is very visible.

As was mentioned, a permanent display is preferable to pamphlets that get misplaced. Larger rating stickers on the boxes would help get the attention of purchasers and, above all, the M-rated and teen-rated games should be located in a separate

section from the E-rated games. I agree that parents have a responsibility to be vigilant and monitor their children's activities. However, they are up against an industry that spends millions to advertise their products to children. As White says, parents cannot stem the tide of entertainment violence on their own. We need help from our government. Legislation also needs, I believe, to look at the arcades. It is incongruous that a child cannot attend an R-rated movie but can play an M-rated video game in the foyer. Madam Vice-Chairperson: Excuse me, Ms. Ridd.

We are at 11 minutes and 46, so if you could wrap it up, because I know that we probably have some committee members who have some questions for you. Ms. Ridd: Okay. I have just a couple of paragraphs. Parents and children would also be helped if there were regulations for the promotion and marketing of games. As was pointed out, Marianne or Maureen, I guess Maureen pointed out that routinely the industry targets young children. Just recently, Doug Gentile fro m the Iowa university gave this quote: Advertisements for M-rated games have appeared in Sports Illustrated for Kids .

It is unfair of the industry to label games as 'not for kids' when marketing to kids. The other problem that was spoken about was how they cross market, the toys and the games. One of the things that could be done there is to place a warning label on the action figures that would address this problem. In other words, if the action figure was from a mature-rated game, that could be on the figure to say where this is from.

In conclusion, I would just like to say that, although I am speaking, sort of, primarily as a parent, I do believe it is the responsibility of our whole community to provide a safe and nurturing environment for all children. So a large scale public education program that would include information on these effects would be very helpful, and, also, helping parents with alternative activities, and information on parenting skills to address this very serious problem.

Many people bemoan the amount of violence in our society today; addressing the problem of violent video games is one preventative action that the government of Manitoba can take. Thank you.

June 7, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 199 Madam Vice-Chairperson: Thank you, Ms. Ridd. Are there any questions? Mr. Lamoureux: Ms. Ridd, I really, truly, did appreciate your presentation . In it, you make refer- ence to legislation needs to also target arcades. Then Ms. Cerilli was talking, and there was some table discussion about Internet. I am wondering if you feel that the legislation should take into consideration, let us say, the distribution of things that would be downloaded from the Internet. Do you see that the legislation or regulation should be looking at that?

Obviously, we cannot prevent what people are going to download, but, what they might download, and then bring to the school for distribution, is there a role for this legislation or regulation to address an issue of that nature? Ms. Ridd: You know, I think somebody made the point earlier that, I guess it was Mr. Cummings made the point, you know, you can get around these things.

Kids can buy liquor, get their friends to buy it, that type of thing, but I think just having something like that there makes parents more aware and makes society more aware, and I think that might be something that should be looked at, yes. I have a couple of examples that people might like to see. Madam Vice-Chairperson: Okay we can have the page pass those out for you. Are there any other questions? Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Thank you very much, Ms. Ridd, for the presentation.

I think you make a compelling case for the vigilance that all of us should have in regard to what we allow our children to see or not to see. I just want to ask one question. Are you aware that there are a significant number, in our Manitoba society today, of parents that will simply not allow their children to view these kinds of materials? Number 1, they have no tele- vision sets in their homes, nor would they allow material such as this to be brought into their homes. Are you aware of that? Ms.

Ridd: I would say they are, probably, very much in the minority, because I have been invited to speak to parent councils and parent groups, and that would be a rarity that somebody would not have access to that. In fact, I think the study has just been done. I think Maureen just got a study that the Canadian children play more video games than any other children in the world. So I think it is a broad problem. If those people do not have them, they are not going to be worried about this, except how it affects, maybe, their children from somebody else's behaviour. Mr.

Penner: I guess the question I have, would you agree, that, if we, as adu lts, played a more proactive role in ensuring that our children were kept from these kinds of materials to a much maturer level in society, we would have a different society? Ms. Ridd: I believe that is the ideal, but I also believe there are a lot of children who do not have those types of parents. I believe there are children who are vulnerable. I think most parents really want the best for their children, but, maybe, are ignorant of the effects of these games, do not think about it.

I am quite surprised when I go to speak to these groups that well-meaning parents have never looked at what is in these games. When I show a video of clips of some of the things that are in these games, they are totally shocked. So I just think that we cannot expect individuals to take full responsibility. This is a huge industry that markets these things to our children. I think, as a community, we have a responsibility to care for the children of our community. * (20:00) Mr. Penner: Just one short quest ion, then.

Do you truly believe then that government could impact these kinds of decisions, when parents cannot impact the decisions of their children? Ms. Ridd: Yes, because it would give parents the backing that they need, Mr. Penner. Parents would be able to have that authority that they could speak to a parent of another child, or a friend of theirs, and say, "You know, I do not want my child to see this, and it is not allowed." It would just be, I think, very helpful. It would really raise the awareness among parents of what the effects of these games are, and the problems that they ar e affecting our children with.

200 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 2004 Madam Vice-Chairperson: Any other questions? Mr. Lamoureux: One request, because you do seem to have quite a bit of information. You made reference to a video clip. Is it a VHS tape that depicts some of these that you might be able to–I know I, personally, would have an interest in just getting–it sounds like you make presentations. Is that something which, maybe, you could make available to each of the three political parties? Ms. Ridd: Yes. One of our volunteers just recently made a new video.

Her boyfriend plays video games, so she did a video of three of the most popular games, but mature-rated games, which are still available to young children; one is Grand Theft Auto, Vice City and Manhunt , which is the notorious one that the province of Ontario has just outlawed being played at all. Yes, I certainly have that available and would be willing to show it. It is quite shocking. Madam Vice-Chairperson: Thank you. That will conclude our time for questions. Mr. Robinson: Ms. Ridd, thank you very much for your well-researched and th oughtful presentation.

It is, indeed, something that we, as a committee and, ultimately, as a government, take very seriously. Both yourself, your presentation and the one previously by Ms. Cerilli, is something that is very informative, firstly. Secondly, there ar e a number of good recommendations, I believe, that are contained in both your presentations ranging with the 13 recommendations that Ms. Cerilli had with respect to t h e w o r k t h a t w e s h o u l d b e d o i n g . I w a n t y o u t o know that this amendment to our Amusements Amendment Act is, simply, the first step, we believe.

I believe that opportunities are there for, perhaps, amendments as a possibility, as the work continues on the interprovincial working group that you are very familiar with, as the industry itself evolves. At the Vancouver meeting of the working group very recently, the Retail Council of Canada and the ESRB made presentations to this working group. I want you to know that there was discussion about whether the ESRB ratings were sensitive to Canadian values. We have to make some inroads there, as well.

As a result of lobbying efforts on behalf of Canadian provinces and our representatives, we have had a position on their advisory board offered to us here in Canada. So I think that is a substantial move in the right direction. I believe that Ms. Cerilli in her presentation said that we should have a homemade community- standard product developed. I think that is, ultimately, the goal down the road. We are, also, mindful the industry is changing on a regular basis. As a committee, I believe, as legislators, we are very familiar with that.

Whereas, we are just as concerned–certainly, I am, as a parent, potentially a grandparent soon–that we must be very mindful of what is accessible to our children. I want to thank you for your very thoughtful presentation to this committee tonight. Madam Vice-Chairperson: Thank you. Bill 30–The Safe Schools Charter (Various Acts Amended) Madam Vice-Chairperson: Now we will move on to Bill 30, The Safe Schools Charter. Our first presenter is Mr. Pokorny. A ll right, Mr. Pokorny, if you would like to start, please. Mr.

Roland Pokorny (P rivate Citizen): Due to time constraints, I am only going to briefly read over it. My name is Roland Pokorny. I am the parent of a severely bullied child. Bullying cannot be prevented if it is only addressed at the school level. It has to be addressed on a community-wide basis. In school, bullying is a pack animal sport. It usually involves two or more bullies picking on one individual. This is why adults are so easily fooled. They see a group of popular kids accused by one less popular child.

For adults in authority, including school staff, municipal councillors, or any other responsible adult, they will work hard to discredit the victim. There are different types of bullies. For child bullies, bullying is a learned behaviour. Bullies are taught to bully. To a child bully no means no, yes means yes, and silence means yes. There are no spectators. Most of the time bullying is not physical; it is psychological. They will call you names. They will

June 7, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 201 tease you, torment you. They will humiliate you, mock you, embarrass you in front of your friends. They will threaten your friends to isolate you and ostracize you from all other children. Now where the real problem lies: the pro-bully adult. The pro-bully adult usually believes that bullying is okay, that bullying will toughen you up, that it is a rite of passage, that bullying is part of life and you just have to accept it. Mr. Chairperson in the Chair The best way to distinguish a pro-bully adult from an anti-bully adult is the desire for proof.

Pro- bully adults will always demand large amounts of proof that a problem exists . The amount of proof is so great that it usually comes at great cost to the victim of bullying. The anti-bully adult always believes in being pro-active. Prevention is the rule. Proof is never needed to implement new ideas that will prevent bullying. The adult bully and the serial bully: It is estimated that 1 person in 30, male or female, is a serial bully. Introverted bullies are the most danger- ous type. They sit in the background and recruit others to bully for them.

Extroverted bullies can be charismatic and seem to bewitch people. The serial bully knows what they are doing. They are responsible for their behaviour and thus liable for its consequences to other people. Most cases of bullying involve a serial bully. When called to account for the way they have chosen to behave, the bully instinctively exhibits their recognizable behaviour responses. Denial: The bully will deny everything. They did not do it. A variation of this is trivialization; they may have done it, but they think it is insignificant to report. Retaliation: The bully immediately counter- attacks.

The bully quickly and seamlessly follows the denial with an aggressive counterattack of counter- criticism and counter-allegations, claiming to be the victim and saying the victim is the bully. Feigning victimhood: This commonly takes the form of bursting into tears. By using these responses, the bully is able to avoid answering the question and thus avoid accepting responsibility for what they have said or done. As a pattern of behaviour learned by the age of three, most children learn or are taught to outgrow this, but some are not, and by adulthood this avoidance technique has been practised to perfection.

A further advantage of the denial/counterattack/ feigning victimhood strategy is that it acts as provocation. The target who may have taken months to reach this stage sees th eir tormentor getting away with it and is provoked into an angry and emotional outburst, after which the bully simply says, "There, I told you he or she was like that." I have included some more information on bullying, but I have also included, on page 6, common excuses used by pro-bully adults and adult bullies, as well as what an anti-bully adult would say.

On page 7, I have included some ideas on how to prevent it within our schools as well as within our community. Now my story and why I am here. In October 2002 was the last time my son attended school. He was 10 years old and in Grade 5. On a Monday he got off the school bus. His clothes were damaged and had dirt on them. He ran into the house crying and ran into his room. He did not say anything, but, when we asked, he said, "What is the use; no one believes me anyway." Scott's older sister, Kelly, was also in the bus, and she saw everything and told us what happened.

Kelly is an honour roll student and four years older than Scott. In her own words, which she said do not change: "When Scotty walked outside the school, he bumped David with his backpack. With that David ran after him and started bashing him with his backpack. Scott then started running up the steps to get on the bus. On the last step David pounced on Scotty like a lion would onto its prey. David started punching, hitting, kicking and swearing at Scotty. The bus driver was watching the whole thing, and she just sat there with a smile on her face.

When I saw that the bus driver was not going to do anything, I ran to the front, grabbed Scotty and told David, 'You are in trouble now.'" * (20:10) "When I sat down in my seat, Scotty sat down and just started crying in my arms. I have never felt so bad in all my life. Sitting across from us was a

202 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 2004 boy named Andrew. When he saw Scotty crying, he walked over to David and started punching him and asked him how he liked it. He even asked David if it felt good being beaten. Now the bus driver did not stop David from beating Scotty, but she did stop Andrew from beating David." When I came home from work, I looked at Scott. He had bruises on his arms, legs and back. I went to the school the next day, and I talked to the vice- principal. I told him what had happened and invited him to my house to see Scott's condition.

I told him Scott would not be back at school for at least a week, so he could heal. He declined the invitation, and said he would investigate. A few days later he called to say he investigated the matter and concluded that nothing had happened. The boys who attacked Scott said they never touched him and that it was little more than a little pushing and shoving to get on the bus. The bus driver did, however, file an incident report against Andrew. He was the only one to get in trouble. The vice-principal never talked to Kelly.

I told the vice-principal this was not the first time something like this had happened, but it would be the last. Scott never returned to school. The school cared nothing about Scott's condition. No one ever called to see how he was doing. A few weeks later we received a call from the school requesting that we remove his belongings from the school. We were requested to come after school. When we came, Scott's teacher tried to convince us to say that we are pursuing a different type of teaching and to not say that Scott was bullied.

We left the school with Scott's belongings and said that Scott would not be back until things changed. We never heard from the school again. It was as if Scott had never existed for the school. Only after writing several letters to various school officials did we receive a call, but nothing ever came of it. They offered to move him to a different school, but that would not address the problems on the school bus. Today our son is home-schooled, wondering why everyone hates him. We do not know what to say. The problem with bullying did not start at the school. It did not even start with the kids from his class.

It started right in the neighbourhood. In November of 2000, a couple moved into a house they had built right next to ours. Within a few days of moving in they started an illegal day care. Within a few days of opening the day care my children started to get bullied by the older boys at the day care. The couple that ran this day care taught the kids they looked after how to get what they wanted using harassment, threats and intimidations. The kids learned the lessons well. I complained to the couple and I was simply told off. The couple stated their kids could bully anyone they wanted on public property.

The day-care couple arranged for their kids to be brought to their house on the school bus. This made my children prime targets. My son came crying off the school bus almost daily. Even my daughter was upset most of the time. The bullies even spread their efforts to the school, which now became a nightmare for my children. Shortly after the day care opened, we got a new bus driver. The new bus driver was friends with the day-care owner and decided to ignore the school bus safety rules.

She decided to drop the children off at the property line between the two homes, which meant there was only about two feet between the bus door and snow bank. On the last day of school before Christmas 2000, the bus stopped only a few feet from the snow bank. This meant that my children had to jump onto the snow bank to get away from the bus. Kelly jumped on the snow bank and made it safely to the house. Scott did not make it. He hit the snow bank and slid under the school bus. The bus driver did not see Scott slide under the bus and simply drove away.

My wife grabbed his coat and pulled him out from under the bus with only inches to spare. During the months after Christmas, my son was almost run over in his own driveway, as parents used it to turn around, going to the day care. By July we had had enough. One day while outside in their front yard, some of the older boys started calling all of us names. I tried to find an adult at the day care, but I could find none. My son eventually ran crying into the house. I met with the husband that runs the day care and told him what had happened. A couple of days later the wife made all

June 7, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 203 the kids line up in front of their garage and apologize to us. The peace was short-lived, though, and I finally complained to the local government. The council would not respond and told me to write a complaint to the Selkirk planning commission which enforces the by-laws. A hearing was scheduled for September 13, 2001, at the local council office. I was told a petition and proof of the problem. Some neighbours told us that a day-care owner had lived in the area for more than 20 years and were just moving to a new house.

They also told us this couple were good friends with the local council and planning com- mission and that the municipality is very pro-bully. The hearing was a joke. The council and Selkirk planning cared nothing about our problems and, even after seeing a petition and pictures, sympathized with the day care. They cared nothing about safety or quality of life. The day-care couple admitted to the bullying but stated it was not their problem; the council agreed with them. The two weeks following the hearing was a nightmare of harassment and intimidation.

Our children were terrified and did not want even to go outside. I contacted my local councillor to try and arrange for a meeting between the day-care owners and myself to discuss the dangers their day care was causing, but the day-care owner would have no part of it. Even though there were no children at the hearing, bullying at the school increased 1000 percent. My son suffered from panic attacks and anxiety as a result of all the problems, which made things even worse. He was now being bullied at home, on the bus, and at school. He had no break from the bullying.

He was constantly terrified during his years at school. My son averaged three to five panic attacks a day. His weight was down 10 pounds. He could not sleep; he would not eat; he looked dead. It was very rare to see him smile. The bullies would damage his clothes, smash his school work, destroy any crafts he made. He was constantly called names and put down. We met with people from the school. They insisted there was no proof to back our claim and insisted the problems were of Scott's own doing.

We were told he had learning disabilities, emotional problems, problems relating to others and that he was too sensitive. It is funny how they never say bullies are insensitive. The bullying at school spread with amazing speed. Eventually, kids were bullying Scott from his own class, other classes as well as other grades. He would be blamed for things he did not do and further humiliated by school staff who would make him apologize to the bullies for things he did not do. He was even made to apologize for things he was accused of doing when he was not at school.

Whenever Scott tried to get help from the school staff, they would call him a tattletale and say he did not have enough proof. Whenever the bullies would say something to get Scott in trouble, they would back each other's stories and the school staff would believe them. Eventually, the bullies st arted to threaten Scott's friends. They said they would pound anyone caught talking to him. Scott was alone. He tried to regain his friends, but they would rarely talk to him and eventually joined in the bullying.

During the winter following the hearing, two more parents picking up their children from the day care drove almost 45 feet up our driveway and forced Scott to jump into the snow to avoid being run over. We tried desperately to get help. We made many phone calls and wrote many letters, but all either ignored us or abandoned us. No one cared; nobody wanted to help. We do not know what will be coming next as the laws, by-laws, rules and regulations do not apply here. I gave a list of all the people I wrote letters to and contacted.

All said there was not enough proof, or that it was somebody else's problem, and they would not get involved. In September, 2003, I contacted my councillor, the reeve and the CAO of West St. Paul. I told them we would be willing to move to another area of the city, but it would take us a few years to collect up enough money to move. I asked if they would just put a few conditions on the day care to at least make things a little safer for my children.

I then reminded the council of the following: when you establish specific conditions, the purpose should be to protect the primary use of the neighbourhood and ensure that the quality of life and safety of the neighbours is not affected by the operation. A month later, I received a letter from the CAO of West St. Paul who stated he would not place any conditions on the day care as doing so would be unfair to their operation. I later called the reeve and expressed my disappointment. He stated that I was the only one complaining and did not have enough

204 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 2004 proof to back up my complaint. He said he would do nothing. Today, the day care continues to operate as before. Whenever they get a chance, the adults and the children who are at the day care damage our property, or glare at us any time we are outside. The bullies continue to get a good education from the school system while my son sits at home, and we must continue to pay one of the largest tax bills in the country. I believe my time is up. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Pokorny, for your presentation here this evening. Any questions by members of the committee?

Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): I would like to thank you very much for your presentation tonight, bringing your personal experience forward to this committee. This is a very serious issue which you have indicated tonight. I th ink, certainly, some areas can escalate into things that we cannot even imagine. We have seen them happen in Littleton, Colorado, in Tabor, Alberta, some of the situations that have taken place in those schools and how scary bullying can be and how quickly it can escalate into situations that have taken place so far.

I was intrigued by what you mentioned at the beginning of your presentation about more community involvement. I just wanted to see if you had a couple of comments as to how we could go about involving the community a little bit more in this matter. Mr. Pokorny: Yes, I did a lot of research on this. What I discovered is that, as I heard before, about video games and all this, a lot of our kids would prefer to be outside playing in the streets with their friends, but the bullies rule in sporting events. That is why people are becoming couch potatoes.

If we had community prevention programs, as I said on page 7, we could establish a comm unity-level bully preven- tion committee consisting of homeowners within a certain area and one councillor present to address any problems that arise. You can modify by-laws to include quality-of-life issues, because, after all, right now many of our by-laws are strictly robotic. They address issues relating to fencing and so forth, but they do not allow quality of life to play a role in anything, and, if they do, quite often they are just simply ignored.

You can establish a provincial ethics committee that can determine if any action or decision made by a local government may result in animosity or promote bullying while still being legal. You can establish guidelines within government that would tie funding to bully prevention programs. The more bully prevention programs, the greater access to funding. A lot of people ask me, "Where do you get the funding to pay for these programs?" * (20:20) Well, one of the side effects of bullying is health care problems. If you go to page 17 there is a predictable outcome.

Bullying results in severe negative stress, which results in many doctor visits for many people. If you read the effects of negative stress it includes migraines, aches and pains, reduced immunity to infection, irritable bowel syndrome, thyroid, skin irritations, sleeplessness, fatigue and many, many more. If you started dealing with bully- ing there is a very good chance your health care costs would either stabilize or even go down. The costs right now to Canada are staggering. The annual cost of stress is in the billions.

A lot of it can be related to bullying in the communities, bullying at schools, bullying in the workplace. A child bully grows up to be an adult bully who trains a child bully. You have to break the cycle. Mr. Chairperson: Mrs. Stefanson. Mrs. Stefanson: One more quick question with respect to the legislation that is before us today. Does it essentially address your concerns? Mr. Pokorny: It addresses many of the concerns, but my biggest concern is that many of the pieces of legislation that are out there already are easily abused by adult bullies.

That is not to say that every single person in government is an adult bully, but if you do not write the wording of it in such a way that it cannot be abused, then it can simply be ignored or interpreted in a negative fashion. Mr. Chairperson: Any other questions of committee members? Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): Thank you very much, Mr. Pokorny, for being here tonight and bringing this information to the committee. Obviously, a lot of

June 7, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 205 work has gone into this presentation. It was very important that the committee heard your story and heard your concerns. If I may ask, is Scott still writing? Mr. Pokorny: Yes, he is. Mr. Bjornson: And how is that going? Mr. Pokorny: I just said he did win an award for writing a story, and the Honourable Peter Bjornson came and heard him read it at the Writer's Guild, which made him feel very good. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Pokorny, for your presentation here this evening. The next presenter I have on the list is Edward Lipsett. Please come forward, sir. Mr.

Lipsett, we have a page here that will take your written presentation, if that is what you have in your hand. Good evening, sir. If you would just wait a few moments until we distribute your presentation and then we will proceed. Good evening, Mr. Lipsett. Please proceed when you are ready, sir. Mr. Edward Lipsett (Manitoba Association for Rights and Liberties): Mr. Chairperson, honourable members, my name is Edward Lipsett. I am representing the Manitoba Association for Rights and Liberties.

The Manitoba Association for Rights and Liberties, certainly, agrees that pupils must be provided with a safe and caring school environment and that this involves holding pupils and staff to certain standards of conduct. However, existing legislation provides school authorities with ample power to set standards and impose disciplinary sanctions. Yet expressly notifying pupils and staff what is expected of them seems like a good idea. However, we respectfully suggest that imposing or enhancing the duties and responsibilities alone is not sufficient.

We also believe that the rights of pupils and staff should be expressly stated and protected. It is in the latter area where we respectfully suggest that this bill and, perhaps, even the existing Public Schools Act and The Education Administration Act may be found somewhat wanting. We respectfully offer the following suggestions and comments in the hope of improving that aspect of the situation. Okay, I will get back to clause by clause. Re:

section 1(2) of the act, new

section 41(1)(b.1). I respectfully suggest that it would be better if new clause 41(1)(b.1) were to read something like: (b.1) ensure each pupil enrolled in a school within the jurisdiction of the school board is provided with a safe and caring school environment; (ii) that respects the rights of the pupils and staff including the rights and freedoms protected by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the rights protected by the Human Rights Code and the rules of natural justice and procedural fairness.

Without some reference to the Charter and other rights, there may be a danger that reference to respectful and responsible behaviour could be used or interpreted to bolster any authoritarian tendencies that school administrators might have to an excessive level. At any rate, some safeguards for the rights of pupils seems appropriate in comprehensive school legislation. New

section 41(1)(b.2), it might be appropriate for the legislation to contain criteria or limitations concerning such policy le st they undu ly interfere with freedom of expression. Now we are going to

section 1(3) of the act and new

section 47.1(2) of the legislation. There should also be a clause, something like (a.1) a statement that the rights of the pupils and staff including the rights and freedoms protected by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the rights protected by the Human Rights Code and the rules of natural justice and procedural fairness be respected. Without such provisions, there may be a danger that the code would be written and/or interpreted in an unduly authoritarian manner.

Words like "respectful manner," especia lly in a school setting, could be used to discourage dissent or criticism, unless modified in a manner that offers recognition or protection of such rights or values. At any rate, without such provisions the code and indeed this legislation could be seen as too heavily weighted in the direction of responsibilities of pupils and control over them without being balanced by concern for their rights and freedoms, at least to the extent appropriate in a school setting.

206 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 2004 I may wish to add as an aside that I am in no way suggesting that any rights or freedoms are absolute. I am certainly not suggesting that children in school can exercise the full rights of expression that, oh, adults have. However, this issue has been dealt with very extensively in the American courts. They have shown that it is quite possible to balance the rights of the students with the needs of the school. Our own Charter would apply to public schools.

I would suggest the legislation should at least have some mention that there are rights involved for students who, after all, will soon be full fledged citizens and that it is not all a matter of controls imposed on them. Anyway, getting back to my written submission, new clause (b.1), about the bullying, et cetera, this terminology might be a bit vague or potentially overly broad. It might be necessary to define or limit some of the terms used lest relatively innocuous behaviour or even legitimate expression unintention- ally be covered.

One can certainly sympathize with the gentle- man who spoke previously and one can certainly understand that there is much bullying in the schools that must be banned. However, the word "bullying" itself does not necessarily cover such matters. Some people could use it to cover just severe criticism, as was emphasized by a recent event in this honourable House before a member of the opposition raised a question of privilege, which was denied, concerning a minister who alleged that calling on her to resign was bullying.

I am sure we all remember from our own school days; in my time, it was quite long ago when kids would think of the teacher as the biggest bully on the block, or the teachers would think that the principal was the biggest bully on the block. * (20:30) The point I am trying to raise is, not that it is not a severe problem, it is, but bullying, as well as a reference to psychological abuse could be very wide ranging. Other legislation refe rs to such concepts as intimidation, threatening, violence. So that is what I am saying, we could, maybe, narrow the legislation, just a bit.

Even the French side of the bill, "intimider," to intimidate, might be preferable to the word "bullying," which could mean whatever somebody wants it to mean, as well as serious things that one must deal with. Anyway, getting back to new (b.2) about Discrimination, Human Rights Code. It might be better if this clause were replaced by "harassment," as defined in subsection 19.2 of the Human Rights Code. In most cases, "discrimination" by the Human Rights Code could not be carried out by the pupil against pupil, but is most likely to be carried out by the staff and/or board policy.

That, of course, is already prohibited by the Human Rights Code, and the terminology, which I earlier suggested be added to new clause 41(1)(b.1) and it suggested additional clause 47.1(2)(a.1) would reinforce this message. New (c.1) with gang involvement. The term "gang involvement" is potentially vague and overbroad and might cause infringement on freedom of association. It lacks any definition or limiting parameters. Would it be deemed to cover a mere membership or communication with other pupils who are perceived to be "gang" members, even though no illegal or harmful activity is carried out or planned.

It must be recalled that, if "gang" involve- ment or group membership can legitimately be penalized, there has to be knowledge of the group's illicit purpose and intention to foster that purpose. It seems that unlawful or harmful activities can be penalized by school authorities at any rate, and this addition is unnecessary. Getting down to paragraph (

d) about the Internet and computers. The phrase "that the school has determined to be objectionable" might give the school too much power over matters that could involve freedom of expression. Furthermore, unlike new clause 41.1(b.2), it is not expressly limited to activities at school. It seems that some criteria, parameters or limiting factors are necessary in the legislation to prevent overreaching. New paragraph (e). It seems that greater procedural protections should be given to pupils facing discipline, perhaps here and/or elsewhere in The Public Schools Act and The Education Administration Act.

I just conclude by stating that, again, I appreciate there are serious problems in schools that have to be dealt with, but not at the expense of legislation that is so wide ranging that it could cover innocent as well as sanctionable conduct. Further, I do not know if

June 7, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 207 this would have anything to do with it, but many people wonder why the voting rate among young adults is so dismally low, 25 percent. Maybe it would help the students in our schools, especially at the high school level, who are also adults might be treated as citizens, to learn that there are rights as well as responsibilities. Maybe that would even help to motivate them to greater civic activities in their adult years. Again, I thank you for your time. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much for your presentation, Mr. Lipsett. Any questions? Mrs. Stefanson: Mr.

Lipsett, I just want to thank you for you presentation today. I think you brought some very compelling arguments forward here, certainly when it comes to the rights and freedoms of individuals in the school. I just want to thank you for bringing that to our attention today. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Lipsett, did you wish to respond? If not– Mr. Lipsett: I appreciate your comments. Mr. Bjornson: I, too, would like to thank you for taking the time to present here tonight. You have brought some very interesting information to the table.

As you said, the community sense of bullying and other issues around this act are very important and it is quite appropriate that we would be having this discussion after we have talked about The Amusements Amendment Act and the relationship is obviously there with respect to what we are trying to do to prevent children to having access to violent media and the pervasive nature of violence in our society. So it is quite important that we address these issues through our schools and our Safe Schools Charter and again, thank you for being here tonight. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr.

Lipsett, for your presentation here this evening, sir. Mr. Lipsett.: Thank you very much. Mr. Chairperson: That concludes the list of presenters that were registered to speak. Are there any members of the public in the audience this evening that wish to make a presentation to Bill 30? Seeing no other presenters, then we will proceed with the next bill. Bill 36–The Highway Traffic Amendment Act Mr. Chairperson: For Bill 36, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act, we have one presenter registered to speak, David Grant. Is Mr. Grant here this evening? No. Calling Mr.

Grant's name then for the second time, since he is the only presenter registered to speak to Bill 36. Mr. Grant? Mr. Grant's name, then, will be struck from the list. Are there any other presenters in the audience here this evening that wish to make a presentation to Bill 36, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act? Seeing none, that concludes the list of presenters on Bill 36. Bill 37–The Labour Relations Amendment Act Mr. Chairperson: W e a l s o h a v e f or consideration before this committee this evening, Bill 37, The Labour Relations Amendment Act.

Are there any members of the public in the audience here this evening that wish to make a presentation to Bill 37? Seeing no presenters on Bill 37, I will call then for presenters for Bill 32 , The Provincial Railways Amendment Act. Bill 32–The Provincial Railways Amendment Act Mr. Chairperson: Are there any members of the public that wish to make a presentation to Bill 32? Seeing no presenters to Bill 32 then, that concludes the list of bills to be called for present- ations here this evening. Bill 19–The Public Schools Amendment Act Mr.

Chairperson: We will then proceed with clause-by-clause consideration of the bills listed in order which will be Bill 19. During consideration of a bill the table of contents and the enacting clause of the title and the

208 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 7, 2004 title are postponed until all other clauses have been considered in their proper order. Also, if there is an agreement from the committee for the longer bills, I will call clauses in blocks that conform to pages with the understanding that we will stop at any particular clause or clauses where members may have comments, questions or amendments to propose. Is that agreed? [Agreed] We will then proceed to clause-by-clause consideration of Bill 19. Does the honourable minister responsible for Bill 19 having an opening statement? Hon.

Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): Mr. Chair, I just wanted to say that Bill 19 is the result of consultation with our stakeholders and many of the recommendations that are being brought forward as such for this legislation have been a result of that consultative process. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the honourable minister for the opening statement. Does the critic for the official opposition have an opening state- ment? Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I just do have a couple of comments concerning this bill.

It is essentially an omnibus bill that makes several changes to The Public Schools Act. There are a couple of things where we do have some concerns associated with this bill. In particular when it comes to

section 39.6, I think it is fair to say that it is commendable that rules regarding disqual- ification of school trustees be codified in legislation with standards similar to municipal and provincial candidates. The decision to bar candidates convicted of criminal offences for a period of four years after their sentence expires could, essentially, be unconsti- tutional. I would just caution the minister that this

section could be challenged and could be found to be unconstitutional and perhaps goes beyond the guidelines laid out by The Election Act, The Legislative Assembly Act or The Local Authorities Election Act. * (20:40) So I just want to put a few words on the record with respect to that, that, potentially, if it is challenged could be found unconstitutional. The other area that I have some concerns with, and some of this was brought forward in one of the presentations this evening, with respect to some of the changes to Form 2A and A of contracts between teachers and the school divisions.

Certainly, we understand the arguments brought forward and this will be provided in regulations at a later date. Brian Ardern from Manitoba Teachers' Society brought forward some regulations that he would like to see as part of the regulations that will come forward by the minister at a later date. I would like to ask the minister at this point in time, although I am not sure if I am allowed to, but if I had the opportunity to I would like to ask him who else had been consulted, because I know he mentioned in his opening statements that all stake- holders had been consulted when it comes to this bill.

Clearly, I am not sure that the school divisions would have been consulted with respect to this because, essentially, what this will do is cause an expense to be incurred at the local school division levels. If some of these regulations are taken into consideration, I would just like to quote from a presentation that was submitted tonight by the Winnipeg School Division. Basically, what they said is, and I will quote them, "In the case of the Winnipeg School Division, we would also advise the government that any change to the

schedule of employment would mean the government would be changing the terms and conditions of our collective agreement through legislation or regulation.

As our individual schedules of employment are defined in and are attached to and form part of the collective agreement between the Winnipeg School Division and the Winnipeg Teachers' Association, the government, in doing so, would be seen as making a major intrusion in the collective agreement and this would be in direct contravention of the government's philosophy of free collective bargaining." I guess I would just like to know, there would be potentially significant costs incurred as a result of this change in legislation and it is infringing on the territory of the collective bargaining right that resides with the individual school divisions.

Now, poten- tially, this is perhaps the minister's way of making a

June 7, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 209 pre-announcement to ch anging the collective bargaining to being province-wide. We know the Premier (Mr. Doer) has been out stating as such, but I would just have thought that certainly the school divisions would have been consulted when it came to this part of the legislation. I think, clearly, they have not been consulted with respect to this.

I would hope that throughout the process of bringing forward the regulations that they will be consulted so that any major costs that will be incurred, and because it is infringing on their territo ry of the collective bargaining, that I would hope that the minister would be consulting these organizations as well as MTS. MTS was here tonight to do a presentation on this and, certainly, are aware of what is taking place. So, with that, I will conclude my comments. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the honourable member for the opening s

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-2-la06
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 2nd hansardpdf la06.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	34d4e257dc30ac3684bf2a92501f9616e4008ec8

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