Manitoba Hansard — 21 June 1999 (Sitting 47, 36th Legislature, 5th Session)

36-5-47

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session -Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The /lonourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLIX No. 47- 1:30 p.m., Monday, June 21, 1999

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CIIOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, lion. DACQUA Y, Louise. lion. DERKACII. Leonard, lion. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James DRIEDGER, Albert DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, lion. EVANS,Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCIIOU, David FILMON, Gary, lion. FINDLAY, Glen FRIESEN, Jean GILLESIIAMMER, Harold, lion. IIELWER, Edward IIICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATIILIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, lion. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIIIYCIIUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, lion. RENDER, Shirley, lion. ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis· SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, lion. STRUTHERS. Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, lion. TWEED, Mervin, lion. VODREY, Rosemary, lion. WOWCIIUK. Rosann l'acant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Charles wood Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescent wood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendryc Rossmcrc Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River St. Boniface Political Affiliation N.D I' N.D I' N.DI' NDI' PC PC. PC.

N.DP. N.llP I'.C. P C . P.C. P.C. P. C. N.IJ.I'. N.D.P. PC. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.IJ.P. P.C. N.IH. N. D.P. N.D.P. P.C. PC. N.O. P. PC. N.D. P. P.C. P.C. P.C. PC. PC. P.C. N.DP. PC PC N DP I'.C. N DP NDP I'.C N D.P PC I' C. PC PC Nil I'

3053 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, June21, 1999 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Cha irperson): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Forest Fire Conditions Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I wish to report on fire activity over the weekend which has increased due to several lightning storms that passed through northern Manitoba. Depart mental staff have responded to 58 new starts since late Thursday afternoon and were successful in controlling 54 of those fires. Nineteen additional helicopters have been mobilized into the areas of concern. Yesterday several fires in and adjacent to northern communities were actioned. There were two fires at Split Lake, one near Pikwitonei, and one near Oxford House.

These fires were quickly contained and do not presently threaten any structures. Fire investi gators have been dispatched to ascertain the cause.

Four fires are classified out of control at this time: Duval Lake, west of Kississing Lake, 360- hectare fire, lines have been established and there are 13 0 personnel that have been deployed; at High Rock Lake, 2,800 hectares were burned, 16 5 firefighters deployed; Notigi Lake, 1, 500 hectares burned, 60 firefighters have been deployed; and Pikwitonei, 75-hectare tire, 55 firefighters on site and there has been little movement of this fire yesterday, having fire lines established.

Extreme burning conditions are predicted for the next two days, with a forecast for moisture in northern Manitoba by Tuesday that should assist in the suppression eff orts. I think it is important that we remember that the potential fire conditions have become near extreme in some areas. Lightning storms triggered several fires in the far north where we have no action obser vation zones. The activity and spread is being monitored, and suppression action is not anticipated. We have recorded 315 fires to date, Madam Speaker, and have lost an estimated 74,200 hectares of forest land. *(1 335) Mr.

Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, it is quite ironic that we need to stand and talk about forest fires this of all springs when half the province is flooding and the other half of the province is way too hot. I thank the minister for bringing us an update on the forest fire situation in northern Manitoba, and of course we wish all the best for the residents and the firefighters, the volunteers and people who will be fighting fires at Duval Lake, High Rock Lake, Notigi Lake and up at Pikwitonei.

Madam Speaker, I want to encourage people living throughout the province to exercise common sense and exercise a degree of caution, because we do know that the conditions are right right now for the establishment and the sparking of fires in our province. I would think that both sides of the House would encourage people to be

3054 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 19 99 very careful in their activities. Now that summer has officially arrived, I know many people are hoping to get out and en joy many of the activities that we do outside in the wilderness, and I would encourage people to be very cautious. We do not want to see what we see in some situations with evacuations and people's houses and cabins burning up and the loss of many hectares of forest in our province.

So I appreciate the update from the minister and wish all the best to the volunteers and the firefighters engaged in battling the forest fires in northern Manitoba. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Flooding Compensation Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, I have a statement for the House. At this time I would like to make a brief statement on the programs and activities of my department in assistance to Manitobans in their recovery from flooding in western Manitoba this spring.

As a proactive measure to assist Manitobans in the flood-affected western regions, the Manitoba Emergency Management Organization identified the need for a Disaster Financial Assistance program to assist in their recovery as a result of the flooding and has established flood recovery offices in Melita and Neepawa. The recovery offices, which operate Monday through Saturday from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m., provide advice and information on disaster financial assistance to the people affected by the flooding.

The offices also serve as information centres for services of other agencies such as the Salvation Army, Canadian Red Cross trauma, stress and financial counselling services, making possible one-stop shopping for those impacted by the flood. These recovery offices are similar to those established during the 19 97 Red River Valley flood and are located in the Manitoba Agriculture offices at 139 Main Street, Melita, and at 41 Main Street in Neepawa. Inquiries can be made in person or by telephone or facsimile.

Since its opening on Monday, May 31, the Melita of fice has received over 440 telephone inquires and visits and has distributed over 300 DFA applications. The Neepawa office has been open since Monday, June 14 . The Di saster Financial Assistance program provides financial assistance to private residential property, full time farmers, full-time small businesses and nonprofit organizations when eligible costs incurred as a result of a di saster exceed an amount deemed to be reasonable.

The maximum assistance on private claims is 80 percent of eligible costs to a maximum of $1 00,000 each for home, farm and business. Claimants awards cannot exceed the cost of repair or replacement. In addition to these initiatives, MEMO plays a co-ordinating role in the activities of all provincial departments and nongovernment agencies through frequent meetings and consultations, including represen tation from the municipalities impacted by this event.

Today I wish to thank the people of all the departments and agencies whose diligent efforts are anticipating and responding to the needs of our fellow Manitobans in these very stressful times. Thank you. Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): For some time, we have been discussing the pros and cons of programs designed to help farmers and businesses in the southwest part of our province, and not just the southwest part of the province but in areas such as Gilbert Plains, Grandview, McCreary, Neepawa.

Gladstone and some parts of the southeast comer of Manitoba which have received an inordinate amount of rain. an inordinate amount of snowfall last winter and have experienced all kinds of problems in seeding, getting their crops in. Today, of course, we are hopeful that a package that would be fair to producers will be announced. I want to thank the Minister of Government Services for updating us on the steps which his department are taking to help allevia te the problems, the very real day-to-day problems that occur for people living in these affected areas.

I am told by people who are responsible for providing counselling in these areas that, as we can all understand, the stress level for families, farm families, businesses and people living in the affected areas is very high. One of the things that really contributes a lot to the increased level

June 21, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3055 of stress is the lack of details available to people. We know that there is a lot of stress involved in not getting your crop in on time and then wondering what the eventual impact on the local economy will be, but to add to that is the uncertainty of not knowing what the details are of a package that has been talked about a lot but not, as of yet, implemented for the betterment of these communities and these farm families. I want to commend the minister for opening offices in Melita and in Neepawa to help in this predicament that we are in.

My hope is that would speed up the conveyance of information that would be used in helping farm families and thus reduce the amount of stress that these families are under. Again, I want to stress that both farm operations and business operations in these areas are very much afflicted by the lack of information that is being given out. Finally, I want to thank, along with the minister, the people in the departments who have worked to put together the programs that are available for farmers and business people in this area of Manitoba. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. * (1 340) TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Mervin Tweed (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): On behalf of the honour able Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), I am pleased to table Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for 19 99-2000 Departmental Expenditures for Manitoba Agriculture. Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I would like to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for 19 99-2000 Departmental Expen diture Estimates, the Department of Justice.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, would like to draw the attention of all honour able members to the public gallery where we have with us today a delegation from Trinidad and Tobago. The delegation is undertaking a training program in management development and environmental management at the Department of Environment and is under the direction of Dr. Daniel Ch'ang, deputy medical of ficer of health, City of Port of Spain Corporation. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today.

Also, seated in the public gallery we have this afternoon fifteen Grades 7 to 9 students from Darwin School under the direction of Mrs. Lori Arne!. This school is located in the con stituency of the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Newman). Also, twenty-eight Grade 4 students from Centennial School under the direction of Mrs. Karen Klassen. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Praznik). And, sixty Grade 5 students from Winkler Elementary School under the direction of Mr. Eckhard Klaassen and Mr. Lawrence Siemens.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Pembina. (Mr. Dyck). On behalf of all honourable members, welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Flooding Compensation for Farmers Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, it has been reported over the weekend that the federal government will be making an announcement dealing with the flooded farmland in southwestern and central Manitoba and in southeastern Saskatchewan. Has the Premier been informed of the announce ment?

How much money will it be for a contingency plan for unseeded acreage, and can he report that to the House, please? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, regrettably, I cannot give any detail on the announcement to the Leader of the Opposition. I thank him for the question. My of fice and that of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) have been endeavouring to get factual information

3056 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 19 99 from the office of the federal Minister of Agriculture, and we have not been privileged to receive that information. We do have a copy of the news release which was just issued in Estevan a short while ago, which was faxed to us. It appears as though what has been proposed in Saskatchewan, which we assume may form the basis of an announce ment in Manitoba, is that there will be a loosening of the triggers for NISA that will allow for farmers that have built up surpluses in NISA accounts to be able to access that money a little more easily.

I would indicate that from a Manitoba perspective that will have some positive impact in that in the southwest comer of the province there is about a hundred million dollars sitting in NISA accounts to the farmer's benefit which cannot, under these circumstances, be released. It also, of course, is not likely that very much of it will be in the hands of new young farmers, and so that is a concern.

They are also calling for an advance payment using, as we had proposed, the AIDA funds, making a calculation based on unseeded acres and then flowing approximately 60 percent of the pay ment by September, so as an advance payment on the expected allocation. So that is as much information as I can share. It is based somewhat on speculation, assuming that what he announced in Estevan may in fact also be announced in Brandon. * (1 345) Mr.

Doer: We did pull the announcement in Estevan off the Net, and I am surprised to hear that there has been no federal-provincial negotiations for farmers and producers in communities dealing with this matter. Madam Speaker, I would like to also ask the Premier: what is the specific contingency plan from the Province of Manitoba? What will the province be leading with in specific terms to deal with the unseeded acreage? We have heard from Saskatchewan, at $25 out of the crop insurance in Saskatchewan, a specific amount of money as a contingency plan for unseeded acres.

We know that AIDA has not been farmer friendly or producer-friendly. Very few people have accessed that program to date. Many farmers tell us that your costs for an accountant are higher than the potential relief from last year's prices. What is the specific Manitoba program, and will this program, at the end of the day, be producer friendly to deal with the immediate crisis in Manitoba? Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I make two points about this.

As we discussed it last week and as I discussed with the farmers when I was there to visit with them and met in the cabinet room with representatives of producer groups as well as the municipal leadership of the province, that the farmers, even if they planted a crop, would not get any revenue from this until September.

So, for the member to shout that this is an immediate crisis that has to be dealt with today or tomorrow, what has to be done is to find a way of addressing their need for cash flow when they would normally get it by the sale of their crop, which would be, of course, late August or some time in September. That is what we have been urging Ottawa to deal with.

The proposal with respect to AIDA, and the member knows full well that we did not from the beginning believe that AIDA was a sound program to be able to realistically impact on the needs of our farm community, but it was his critic the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) who kept saying to us: why do you not sign on; why do you not sign on or go into it? Everybody else is doing it. We were the last province to hold out in hopes that the federal government would see that the program has plenty of flaws.

Now the member opposite is taking the position that we are, that with all the flaws, it has to be fixed, Madam Speaker. We have been saying that right from day one, and what this does, as I understand it, is to provide for a cash flow mechanism, an advance payment mechanism so that the farmers would not have to wait until they put in their income tax return next year. Under those circumstances, a 60 percent cash flow payment, in advance, based on an expected allocation with the income tax return, does make some sense and does give us what we are looking for, which is an advance payment.

It is our understanding that the minister has indicated in Saskatchewan that he hopes to have that payment come in September, and that, too,

June 21, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3057 meets some of the recommendations that we have been making to him along the way. With respect to his first point about why there is no negotiation, Madam Speaker, this government has been in touch with that minister. Our Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), who is meeting with Minister Vanclief right now in Brandon, has certainly put forward many suggestions, both in writing and verbally, to the minister. But the minister has chosen to make the decisions on his own.

Even though 40 percent of the money is provincial government money, he has chosen to make the decision unilaterally as opposed to through consultation and discussion. That is not something with which we are particularly happy. * (1 350) Gang Hotline Anonymity Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, with a new question to the First Minister. On Tuesday, June 15, on the 17 th of June, on 18 th of June and again on the weekend, we have had more contradictory stories and statements and lines from this so-called Minister of Justice than we had from Taras Sokolyk about the vote-rigging inquiry.

Contradiction after contradiction. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon): what is the status of the situation on the confidentiality of the gang hotl ine, given it was his promise back in 19 94, and what action is he taking with his Minister of Justice that obviously has breached the promise the Premier made to the people of Manitoba? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I am advised that as a result of an internal review by one of my staff members, the province took over the clearing of the line of information and following up with any necessary action.

The province took over this function on or about May 10 , 1999. Prior to that date, the City of Winnipeg Police Service cleared the line of information and followed up with any necessary action. In respect of the explanation as to why certain calls were capable of identification, it was explained to the media on Thursday afternoon. I provided the media with a copy of that explanation, and I am prepared to table that same explanation here again today. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, the word-changing and buck-passing keeps continuing from this minister.

This is a document from the Depart ment of Justice mailed to 100,000 Manitobans by the former Minister of Justice and the present Premier (Mr. Filmon). This promise, basically, Take Back the Streets-no, that was this year's promise. On the Street Peace program, 100,000 brochures state, and I quote: Your call is confidential. No call is traced or displayed. I would like to ask the Premier: is he holding his Minister of Justice accountable for breaching a promise to 100,000 people and breaching the integrity and confidentiality of the gang hotline?

If he is going to be tough on gangs, take action on his Minister of Justice. Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, as far as I am aware, all calls for assistance or information since the province took this line over in terms of clearing the information on or about May 10, 19 99, have been handled on an appropriately confidential level. I would say, however, with the exception of some cans made from a specific exchange, indeed the calls ofthe member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh), there was in fact a capability of identifying those hang-up calls where there was simply a hang-up in that particular situation.

Madam Speaker, I am not aware of any other calls where there was a similar capability. As far as I am aware, all calls for assistance or information since the province took this over on or about May 10 , 19 99, have been handled on an appropriately confidential basis. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, this promise was made in 1994. This is a promise made by the former Minister of Justice as part of a previous pre-election campaign. Sergeant John Eyer in a wire service story stated that anonymity is a cornerstone of Crime Stoppers program: Confidentiality is crucial.

We go out of our way to make sure we don't know who you are. I

3058 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 2I, I9 99 think you should do as you promise to do on confidentiality. The minister is stating today that that did not happen. His contradictions last week mean that we do not believe him very much, and why should we? I would like to ask the Premier (Mr.

Filmon): given other precedents in other provinces, will you be removing your Minister of Justice and find out why your promise of confidentiality to I 00,000 people was breached and how we can restore the integrity of other lines to ensure that all of us as citizens can do what we can to prevent crime and be backed up by an honest government? Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, as indicated earlier, the disclosure of the calls made from the office of the member for St.

Johns, whether those were calls made by people other than him, as he first stated last Tuesday or whether he made them himself as he confirmed last Thursday, should not have been referenced by me in the House. That is clear. However, as far as 1 am aware, all calls for assistance or information since the province took this over on or about May 10 , I9 99, have been handled on an appropriately confidential basis. * (13 55) Gang Hotline Anonymity Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St.

Johns): To the Minister of Justice: after the minister was caught both trac ing calls, at least to 9-4-5 numbers, and then, second, breaching confiden tiality of the gang hotline contrary to the govern ment's promise, I 00,000 wallet-size cards, this was only the first of seven inconsistencies, and I am being generous with that term, from this minister. The minister gave two explanations then. He said, first of all, that the government was trying to monitor and prevent internal abuse; in other words, it was a planned tracing. Then, later, he said it was a technical glitch; it was a mistake.

My question to the minister is this: how are Manitobans ever to believe these people? What a tangled web they weave. Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, when I was first questioned by the media outside of the House on Thursday, I indicated that I would be looking into the matter. Indeed, I held a press conference later on that afternoon after I had received what I considered to be the full and complete details of this matter, and I provided that on I believe it was the Thursday after I had given the explanation. So I do not agree with the comments from the member for St.

Johns, and I have tabled the explanation that my staff had provided. Mr. Mackintosh: Madam Speaker, how is anyone supposed to believe this minister who says, first of all, that this whole problem was not his mistake, it was the City of Winnipeg? Then on Friday he comes back on open-line radio and says that his department was running this line. I would say no one is running this line, but how can the minister continue in this position with these inconsistencies? Mr.

Toews: Madam Speaker, I am advised that, as a result of an internal review by one of my staff members, the province took over the function of clearing the line of information and following up with any necessary action. The province took this function over on or about May 10, and prior to that date the Winnipeg Police Service cleared the line of information and followed up with any necessary action. Mr. Mackintosh: Well, another whopper, Madam Speaker.

How are Manitobans to trust these people when the minister says that they found out just a few days ago that calls were being traced, and then records on Friday indicate that the department knew going back at least to May 10 that this department directly was tracing calls, and those calls were languishing since December of I9 98? Boy, that is tough on crime, is it not? Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I understand that on May 10 the department went in to clear the lines of those calls.

Prior to that date, the responsibility for doing that had been with the Winnipeg Police Service, and I understand that the police chief has offered some explanation in respect of that issue. They have indicated that

June 21, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3059 the line had been of limited use and that emergency calls were rerouted for assistance. So the department, in fact, commenced discussions with the City of Winnipeg in order to determine what, in fact, needs to be done with that particular line. All I can indicate is that the province took over the function on May 10 , 19 99. With respect to the calls made from the office of the member for St. Johns, as I have indicated, those calls should not have been referenced by me in the House. * (1 400) Minister of Justice Resignation Request Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). Despite the minister's protestations, what this government has done to the fight of organized crime and gang crime has set it back many, many years, despite what the minister tries to weasel out of in terms of his words in this House. The breaching of confidentiality, the contradictory statements have destroyed the credibility of this government, if they had any, on fighting gangs.

I want to ask the First Minister: given the serious situation his Justice minister has put himself in, would the Premier consider doing the honourable thing and asking his minister to step aside in order to restore integrity to the system and allow a review to take place to ensure that some credibility goes back into the adminis tration of justice in the province of Manitoba? Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I do in fact know that the Estimates process is coming up and that I am in fact available to questioning by members opposite on this particular issue and other issues that relate to the functioning of the department. Mr. Chomiak: How does the Premier (Mr. Filmon) allow his minister to try to wriggle out of it when the honourable thing would be for the Premier to step in, considering that in 19 95 his former minister talked about the province's efforts? The young people said they would prefer anonymity.

The information to this House is it is taken off the youth gang line very regularly, as stated by the fo rmer minister. The contradictory statements are legion. am asking the Premier to step in and do some thing to restore integrity to the justice system of the province of Manitoba. Mr. Toews: Until May 10 , 19 99, the function of clearing that line was in fact the responsibility of the Winnipeg Police Service. The Province of Manitoba did in fact fund that particular line.

I understand then, as a result of an internal review by one of my staff members, the province took over the function of clearing that line of infor mation and following up with any appropriate information. As far as I am aware, all calls for assistance or information since the province took this over on or about May 10 , 19 99, have been handled on an appropriately confidential basis. Mr. Chomiak: My final supplementary to the Premier (Mr. Filmon).

Despite the fact that, in cases for five months, calls have gone unanswered on the line, despite all of those issues, it is clear that the gang line's integrity is jeopardized, not the least by which-and I am quoting Jacques Lemieux, national co-ordinator of the Criminal Intelligence Service who said, quote: security breaches can have dire consequences for callers when it comes to gang activity.

My question to the Premier is: if you take criminal and gang activities seriously, how can you allow this to go on when the integrity of the entire gang effort is called into question and compromised by the actions of your minister and your department? Mr. Toews: I do not intend to get into the entire aspect of the programs that our department has taken very successfully in respect of gang initiatives.

I do, however, want to say that, since the province took over the clearing of the line on or about May 10 , 19 99, there have been a number of conversations among staff and with the Winnipeg Police Service regarding the continued operation of the line. I am advised

3060 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 2I, I9 99 that staff will be coming to a conclusion on that issue and indeed making recommendations on this matter in due course. Minister of Justice Resigna tion Request Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): After II years, a lot of Manitobans just do not trust this government anymore, and if there is any indication, it is the complete lack of response today from the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to the numerous questions we have asked about the integrity of the justice system. Let no one under estimate the importance and significance of what this minister did.

On Tuesday last week he chose to release confidential information in this House. He denied that on Thursday, but in statements to the media on Thursday and Friday, he has now confirmed that he did indeed release confidential information in the House. This has compromised the integrity of this particular line. I want to ask the First Minister why he will not apply the same kind of code of conduct that even Mike Harris in Ontario applied when Mr. Runciman, a Tory cabinet minister, also breached confidential information.

Why will this First Minister not remove the Minister of Justice p- ing investigation of misconduct? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): In respect of the disclosure of that information, I have indicated that I should not have referred to those particular calls being made, even the fact of them being made. I appreciate that. I do indicate that-and this perhaps needs some clarification. The member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) indicated that he did not make any telephone call, and he stated that at page 2778 of Hansard.

On Thursday, in fact, the member specifically said that those were his calls. I indicated at that time that was the first admission by anyone of making a call. The point is that the matter should not have been brought forward by me in the House. Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, I want to ask the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) again, who is supposedly still responsible for the operation of government in this province, not his Minister of Justice: why will he not recognize how serious the breach made by this Justice minister is then, not only in terms of the credibility and integrity of this minister but a program where they sent I 00,000 leaflets out in the province, guaranteeing anonymity? Why will the Premier not take action? Mr.

Toews: As far as I am aware, as I have indicated earlier, all calls for assistance or for information since the province took this over on or about May 1 0 of this year have been handled on an appropriately confidential basis. The reason why certain hang-up calls were able to be identified has been addressed by MTS, and that ability to identify hang-up calls no longer exists. Mr. Ashton: A final supplementary. I want to again ask the Premier of this province how he expects anyone to believe anything he says now on crime.

You know, all those ads about getting tough with gangs, but in I9 94 he promised a confidential gang hotline and this minister breached that confidentiality in this House last Tuesday, this minister who should resign, Madam Speaker. Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, as I indicated earlier, with the exception of a number of calls that were made from the member for St. Johns' (Mr. Mackintosh) office, the province did not have the capability of identifying any anonymous calls made where there was simply a hang-up without leaving any further information.

I am advised, and as far as I am aware, that the calls for assistance or information since the province took this over on about May IO , I9 99, have been handled on an appropriately confidential basis. I would also again reiterate what the police chief just said recently, that this line has been of very limited use and emergency calls when they were in fact rerouted for assistance. Gang Hotline Anonymity Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, on several occasions the Minister of Justice has made reference to "appropriately confidential." The question that we have for the Minister of Justice is: in his definition of "appropriately confidential," does that then mean

June 21, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 306 1 that anyone who is calling in to the gang line today has absolutely no fear of the government being able to track or get or find out who it is that is calling in to that particular line? Is th'lt the case? And if that is not the case, can the minister or this government give that assurance that people today do have the ability to make that phone call and not be traced in any fashion whatsoever? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I thank the member for that question.

I am advised that MTS in fact has addressed that particular problem to ensure that confidentiality, the issue, of course, of phoning the phone line. If a person leaves their name and number and requests assistance, obviously that is going to be answered by someone and will be followed up by someone, so that is still then being handled in an appropriately confidential way. * (1410 ) Mr. Lamoureux: Was the minister unaware that the calls to the gang action line were confidential, and if so, can he explain why his office then had tracked these calls in the first place? Mr.

Toews: Well, Madam Speaker, when the particular staff member went in to clear those lines, the particular staff member simply did a clerical function, that is, recorded all the information that was there. In the case of some hang-up calls, and the only ones that I am aware of are the ones from the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh), there was able to be an identification by the automatic downloading of the prerecorded name that is put onto the voice mail system. So that was in fact as explained here. Now that clearly should not have occurred, and that has in fact been addressed by MTS.

Education System Standar ds Testing Breach Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, with a different question for the Minister of Education. I trust that the minister has now had the opportunity to review the report from the Seven Oaks School Division. My question to the minister is: is he content with that particular report, and if so, will he table it? If not, will he now call for what we have been calling for, an independent investigation into the whole breach of the security for standards exams? Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, the report to which the honourable member refers was received in my office late on Friday afternoon. I have spent a good part of this morning reviewing that report, as has my deputy minister and legal counsel. It is safe to say, because it was previously acknowledged by Mr. Brian O'Leary, that the report confirms his wrongdoing in that he, Mr. O'Leary, breached the security protocol of the test, potentially compromising test security. That much I can comment on. There are-[interjection] I can do that because Mr. O'Leary acknowledged it himself.

We have yet to hear from the honourable member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) about this matter, the Leader of the New Democratic Party, who says that if his campaign manager were to do wrong he, that being the Leader of the Opposition, would resign. Now we await word from the Leader of the Opposition on that matter. Having said that he would resign if this type of thing happened, we await word from him. But there are matters that relate- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, on a point of order. I have been patiently listening to the minister.

Beauchesne's is fairly clear, indicating that relevancy is somewhat important. There was a specific question. An Honourable Member: 417 . Mr. Lamoureux: Beauchesne's 417 , the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) tells me, to assist you. Unfortunately, I do not have it right in front of me. But the point is I do believe there is an obligation for the Minister of Education either to answer the specific question that was put: is the minister content with the report, or

3062 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 are we going to see an independent investigation? Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Education, on the same point of order. Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, it had been my intention to be relevant to the question.

I thought that I was dealing with the very specific points raised-points plural-in the question by the honourable member, points related to the report that we referred to, the fact that I am reviewing the matter with a view to answering further the questions raised by the honourable member, questions such as whether there ought to be something else happen or whether I will table it in the House. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I believe the minister is responding to the question now and not speaking to the point of order.

On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Inkster, I would agree that the honourable minister did ramble away from the specific points of the question, and I would ask the minister to keep his remarks relevant to the question asked and to quickly complete his response. *** Mr. McCrae: accept that ruling, Madam Speaker. There are other issues, related issues, ancillary issues surrounding this whole matter, issues related, for example, to the grievance arbitration in which one Mr. Treller is involved.

I am getting some legal advice about that, because I think that it would be my wish to make public the report. But there are certain processes in place and in progress, the outcome of which ought not to be jeopardized in the same way that Mr. O'Leary jeopardized the test system in Manitoba. Minister of Justice Resignation Request Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): The Minister of Justice of every province in this country must be the bearer of truth and the guardian of public trust. This Minister of Justice no longer has the confidence of many members of this House or, I would suggest, the respect of many citizens.

His betrayal of the confidence of the hotline and his many twists and turns as he avoids responsibility for his action have clearly lost him that trust. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to be accountable in the full parliamentary manner for a minister who has betrayed that trust and to conduct an investigation and to report back to this House while the minister stands aside. Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): With the exception of some of the calls that were made on a specific exchange, and that is a government exchange and a voice mail system, the province did not have any capability of identifying any anony mous calls made where there was simply a hang up without leaving any further information. As I have indicated earlier, the disclosure of the calls made from the office of the member for St. Johns (Mr.

Mackintosh), whether they were made by staff or whether they were made by himself as he first indicated and then later indicated, should not have been referenced by me in this House. However, I am aware and I have been advised that all other calls for assistance or information have been acted on in an appropriately confidential manner. Ms. Friesen: I would like to ask the Minister of Justice why it is he continues to evade his parliamentary obligations by telling us it was the city's fault; it was the police's fault; it was his staffs fault.

Why is it from this government there is blame everywhere, and we have a Minister of Justice and a Premier who are accountable to none? That is what it is about. An Honourable Member: Afraid to call the election, afraid to face the truth. Mr. Toews: The member for Thompson makes a good point. Ultimately, I am responsible to the electorate in the constituency of Rossmere, and I will- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3063 Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Toews: And I do indicate, and I have stated it in answer to earlier questions today, I should not have ref erenced those phone calls that were made from the office of the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh). Ultimately, Madam Speaker, I am responsible to this House and to the electorate in the constituency of Rossmere. *

(1420) Gang Hotline Anonymity Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): To the Minister of Justice, who I hope never runs a witness protection program, I want to quote the sergeant who supervises Winnipeg Crime Stoppers who says: Anonymity is the comer stone of Crime Stoppers worldwide, and we go to some lengths to protect that. The head of the Criminal Intelligence Service of Canada who said: security breaches can have dire con sequences for callers when it comes to gang activity involving bikers. We know how bikers operate. If they find out who gave the infor mation, their weapon of choice is intimidation.

My question to the minister is: does he not understand how he has undermined not just criminal intelligence on gang activity in Winnipeg but he has undermined every call line and the criminal intelligence of this government? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): As I have indicated earlier, as far as I am aware, all calls for assistance for information since the province took this over on about May 10, 1999, have been handled on an appropriately confidential basis. I understand that the ability to identify the hang-up calls that came from the member for St.

Johns have been corrected as a result of the MTS making the necessary change to the system. So I am willing to take my share of the responsibility for even referencing the fact that there were- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Toews: As I was stating, Madam Speaker, the ability to identify a hang-up call has been corrected as a result of MTS making the necessary change to the system. Mr.

Mackintosh: Well, aside from the seven whoppers and the breach of confidentiality, can the minister explain-if we are to believe these words of the former Minister of Justice about the gang hotline that it is, and I quote, extremely helpful, a very important tool, individuals find it very useful, and as I quote, another successful anticrime initiative, why is it that after the election and in the face of ballooning, skyrocketing and dangerous gang activity, this government walks away from it? Can he explain that negligence? Mr.

Toews: Well, Madam Speaker, in respect to the issue of gang violence, this department and this government has taken numerous steps to ensure and limit the activities of gangs. Indeed, from statistics that I referred to in this House earlier, 385 identified gang members are in fact incarcerated. In respect of the number of gang members, as the member knows, the number of confirmed gang members in the province from the Winnipeg Police Service is approximately 60 1. Gang Hotline Anonymity Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, I want to address my question again to the Premier (Mr.

Filmon), because it is totally inappropriate for a minister in this case to be answering questions that relate directly to the integrity of this minister, whether he should in fact even remain as a minister of the Crown. I want to ask the Premier if the minister's oath means anything and in fact whether the First Minister has any concerns whatsoever about the fact that this Minister of Justice has com promised a significant part of his ability to perform in that role because he chose last Tuesday to come in this House and breach the confidentiality of the supposedly confidential hotline. Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, as I have indicated earlier, I should not have ref erenced those particular calls. But, in fact, as I am aware, any calls, any genuine calls for assistance or information since the province took over the

3064 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 line on May 10, 1999, have been handled on an appropriately confidential basis. Minister of Justice Resignation Request Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I will try to get the Premier to answer a question. The Premier has no problem appearing on TV on paid ads every night talking about justice and gangs, but he will not stand up in the House and try to defuse the situation, explain the situation his Minister of Justice finds himself in.

I would like to ask the Premier: does the Premier not recognize that all of the claims and promises since 1995, all of your heavy-priced paid TV ads, the very nature of all of the confidential lines in the province of Manitoba are in jeopardy because of the breach of confidentiality by your minister and the conf using stories and the seven or so contra dictions? Will the Premier not do the right thing today, stand up and ask his minister to step aside while they investigate this issue for the benefit of all Manitobans? Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Indeed, I can indicate that it was as a result of an internal review by one of my staff members that the province took over the function of clearing the line. There were, I understand, some concerns about the operation of the line, and as a result, other conversations have taken place between staff members and the Winnipeg city police. I know that staff are looking at the operation of the line and will come to a conclusion and recommendations for me in respect of the operation of that line.

As the police themselves have indicated, in recent years the line has been of limited use. Emergency calls, however, I might stress, were appropriately routed for assistance. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. *

(1430) MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Income Assistance Reforms Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Madam Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise in the House today to speak about my government's recent initiatives in the area of welfare reform. These are important initiatives that will benefit social assistance recipients and their children for years to come. On Friday, we announced $1.2 million in funding aimed at getting young Manitobans off welfare by helping them stay in school, taking parenting courses, receiving training and finding jobs. A Leamfare program will be aimed at minors aged 16 to 17 years of age.

As of January 2000, certain conditions will have to be met for these people to receive income assistance. Able-bodied young adults without children will be required to attend school, be in training or be employed in order to receive their employment and income assistance. Should an individual in this category fail to comply with these terms, their benefits will be terminated. Able-bodied young adults with children will be required to take parenting courses. If their child is over six months of age, they will be required to go to school to receive their benefits.

Where no family supports exist, government will provide assistance to cover child and trans portation. Young adults who do not comply with these conditions will see their benefits reduced, but any funds deducted will be held in a fund that a special support unit will administer to meet their child's needs. These initiatives will help us to engage in meaningful early interventions and help prevent long-term welfare dependency. We want young Manitobans to realize the importance of education in the overall quality of their lives and the lives of their children.

The best way for them to improve their standing in life is to obtain education and training so they can provide for themselves and their families. We also want to see that young Manitobans with children are learning how to be good parents. The effects of these initiatives will be felt for years to come. I commend my government for this significant and logical approach to a very real concern. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Aboriginal Solidarity Day Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, aboriginal people regard this day as a

June 21, 1999 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3065 day of meditation, prayer and reflection, a day in the aboriginal world as the first in the new year. Modem-day terminology, of course, regards this day as the summer solstice or the longest day of the year.

For centuries, First Nations people have prayed to the Great Spirit or the Creator and also what is referred to as the Four Worlds, these being, of course, the animal world, the plant world, the earth world and the human world, for all these four are interdependent on each other: our Mother Earth for what she provides for us each and every day; our Grandfather, the plant world, for the medicines to cure illnesses that sometimes plague our people; and as well our brothers and sisters of the animal world, the four-legged world, that provide us with sustenance; and our reliance on our fellow human beings to side with each other in a time of need.

Many of our people have lost their way in the big world, but yet many still remain true to their traditional teachings of the elders. It is for this reason that we celebrate with other aboriginal people throughout North America and indigenous peoples throughout the world a day of solidarity, so that such experiments like residential schools and assimilation attempts like the exportation of aboriginal children to foreign countries will no longer occur in our future.

So today on behalf of my colleagues, my Leader in the official opposition, I rise to salute the contributions made by aboriginal people in this country, this being Aboriginal Solidarity Day. Thank you. Norris Lake Cairn Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Madam Speaker, I recently attended a special ceremony at Norris Lake Cemetery to unveil a cairn dedicated to the Swedish settlement in this area northwest of Teulon. The first Swedish settlers arrived at Norris Lake over 100 years ago and began to build their homes and communities.

The cairn that was erected at Norris Lake recognizes a church and several schools built by these early settlers. The Swedish Baptist Church was established at Norris Lake in 1907 and served the people of the area until 1967, when the building was relocated. The settlers were also involved in establishing the Norris School, the Westerham School, MacFarlane School, and also the Carlsborg School, which were completed between 1909 and 1916. As time went on, the schools were eventually closed and students from the area began attending classes in Teulon.

The creation of the schools and the church were a very important part of building communities. By marking their history, we are also able to mark the progression of settlement in this area. So I would just like to take this opportunity to again congratulate those involved in erecting this cairn. Through their efforts, future genera tions will have a better appreciation of the Swedish settlers of the Norris Lake area. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Greenway School Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, today I rise to talk about one of our local schools, Greenway School, which was recently rebuilt.

Built anew in 1996, we had the official openings. Unfortunately, that brand-new school site sits on a yard space that is probably half of what we would consider standard for schools that are being built today. Living in an established neighbourhood in the core of the city means that sometimes there have to be compromises. Now we have an opportunity to rectify some of those unfaimesses by looking at expanding that site. It is an unusual circumstance that we have the demolition of an established building, but that is exactly what happened.

Adjoining Greenway School, Canadian Linen has been demolished, and that yard site is now vacant and available for sale. I have urged the government to look into this situation, allow the 600 children who use that yard space a little bit more land and have more parity with the schools being built in St. Vital, in Linwood, in other parts of the province and in this city. The window is open for a very short time in neighbourhoods where land is in high demand, and the opportunity exists today.

3066 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 2I, I999 I urge the government to take special measures so that we can compensate those 600 children who use that school daily. In fact, the school division has had to put additional costs and maintenance into that small yard site so that the grass will survive the use by the community. In addition, the school sits in an area that is short of green space. So I urge the government to do the right thing, move on this quickly and expand the yard site for Greenway School. Thank you. NHL Stanley Cup Mr.

Denis Rocan (Gladstone): It gives me great pleasure to rise before the House this afternoon and offer my congratulations to Carman's Eddie Belfour, Winnipeg's Mike Keane and all of their team mates on the Dallas Stars for their victory Saturday night and capturing hockey's holy grail, the Stanley Cup. The six-game final series of the Stanley Cup did not come without a hard fight for the Buffalo Sabres and Manitoba's James Patrick. I congratulate the Sabres and Patrick on their success this season and for a tremendous effort in the final series.

Saturday night's game was the second longest game in Stanley Cup final history, lasting more than 11 4 minutes. Manitoba's own Eddie "the Eagle" Belfour's performance throughout the playoffs and the final game was outstanding. "The Eagle" completely shut out the Sabres in game five and stopped 53 of 54 shots in game six. Having spent II years in the league, this is Belfour's first Stanley Cup and is well deserved and well earned. Mike Keane becomes the ninth player in the league to win three Stanley Cups with three different teams. Keane played all 23 games in the post season.

His hard-hitting, rough-and-tumble style helped lead his team to victory. Please join me in congratulating Manitoba's Eddie Belfour, Mike Keane and James Patrick for their tenacious efforts throughout the playoffs and the final series, and offer a special congratulation to Carman's Eddie "the Eagle" on his first Stanley Cup. Thank you very much. ORDERS OF THE DAY Committee Cha nges Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I move, seconded by the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr.

McAlpine), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: the member for River Heights (Mr. Radcliffe) for the member for Assiniboia (Mrs. Mcintosh). Motion agreed to. House Business Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, a number of bits of information on House business. First of all, I would ask if you could canvass the House to see if there is a willingness to waive private members' hour for today, of course being on the understanding that we will be using Thursday morning for Private Members' Business.

Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to waive private members' hour today with the understanding that we will have private members' hour Thursday morning? [agreed] Mr. Praznik: Secondly, the opposition House leader and I are working out ministers and critics for a series of committee meetings involving a number of annual reports, and although we have finalized one or two of them, I look to the opposition House leader.

I understand there are still one or two more of the committee hearings to be matching ministers and critics, and then we will be making an announcement for a series of Tuesday morning committee meetings. I hope to be able to do that tomorrow or the next day. Thirdly, Madam Speaker, I would ask if you would find if there is consent of the House for the Estimates of Consumer and Corporate Affairs to be considered in the Chamber on com pletion of Executive Council today. Executive Council is scheduled for here.

Should that be completed, is there unanimous agreement? .. (1 440) Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to allow the Estimates for Consumer and Corporate Affairs to be considered in the Chamber upon the conclusion of the Estimates of Executive Council? [agreed]

June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3067 Mr. Praznik: Secondly, Madam Speaker, again the consent of the House for the Estimates of the Department of Highways and Transportation to be considered in Room 255 on completion of the Legislative Assembly Estimates. Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House for the Estimates of the Department of Highways and Transportation to be con sidered in Room 255 upon completion of the Estimates of the Legislative Assembly? [agreed] Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, for the infor mation of all members, consideration of the Estimates of Family Services will continue in Room 254. I would then move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Gilleshammer), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and that this House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Most Gracious Majesty. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concu rrent Sections) FAMILY SERVICES Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Family Services. When the committee last sat, the honourable Minister of Family Services had commenced her opening statement. The honourable Minister of Family Services has 52 minutes remaining. The honourable minister, to continue her opening statement. Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Chairperson, I will just begin at the start of the last paragraph I was reading when we finished last time.

Since our government began reforming the welfare system in 19 96, the caseload for clients participating in welfare reform has dropped by 9,900. This means that more than 18 ,300 people supported by welfare have left the rolls, the first time in two decades where there has been a decline in the number of welfare recipients. The new policy initiatives I have recently announced will help sustain and expand on the success of our previous reforms, the first being work before welfare. When able-bodied individuals apply for assistance, they will first be directed to job opportunities.

Family Services will provide employment referrals and other supports to help people find work. They must then show proof of their job search efforts prior to being eligible for assistance. During this period, Family Services will provide assistance in emergency situations. Next, work for welfare: Every person capable of working must make a contribution as a condition of receiving income assistance. All clients will be required to contribute up to 35 hours of community service each week, with contributions varying on capacity to work and availability of placements. Participating will be mandatory.

Exemptions include single parents with children under six, the disabled, and the aged. Community organizations and munici palities will identify projects and then provide direction and supervision of those projects, such as cleaning up graffiti, sidewalk and street cleaning, participating on neighbourhood crime patrols and school patrols, or assisting lower income seniors or disabled persons. Recipients will only be assigned to school and senior projects after background checks are conducted. Community mobilization initiative: I am pleased to indicate that our Premier (Mr.

Filmon) will personally be writing to community and business leaders to request a voluntary commitment from them and their staff to act as advisors and mentors to people on welfare. Such mentors could provide welfare clients with valuable advice on resume writing, interview preparation, and in making business contacts. In addition, the Premier will be asking for volunteers to work on community group projects with welfare recipients.

Incentives to work: To help people make the transition from welfare to work, Manitoba currently offers drug, dental, and optical benefits to single parents and disabled clients who leave welfare for employment. Coverage is currently

3068 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 available for up to one year. To make sure people can keep on working under this initiative, benefits will be extended from 12 to 18 months. Program Compliance: Our government is also committed to ensuring that assistance gets to those in need. Abuse of the system is not acceptable. Our past efforts to target abuse, such as our welfare fraud line, specialized inves tigators, preintake orientation sessions, and expanded information sharing agreements, have been successful. To build on that success, we are taking steps to do even more.

We are going to intensify efforts by introducing a parental support maintenance enforcement unit, a housing investigator, enhanced enrollment inves tigations, and income and asset investigators. I would again like to point out that these new initiatives will not apply to the disabled, single parents with children under six, and the aged. While some of these initiatives will take effect immediately, the work for welfare and Program Compliance components will begin to be phased in this fall.

Over the years, we have implemented several early intervention and prevention initiatives that work toward ensuring our children get off to a good start in lif e. EarlyStart focuses on prevention and is designed to provide three years of early intervention with children ages two to five to help ensure that they are ready to learn when they reach school age. BabyFirst is a community-based, early childhood program for children from birth to three years of age. It emphasizes positive parenting, enhanced child-parent interaction, and improved child health and development.

The Women and Infant Nutrition Program helps meet the nutritional needs of pregnant women and children under one year of age. Another of my recent announcements builds on our past efforts. The provision of an additional $500,000 each year to create more spaces for addictions treatment provides new hope for Manitobans, particularly parents. Parenting is the most important responsibility in our society. Those parents with addictions face great challenges, and our government is committed to helping them help themselves, which ultimately helps their chi ldren.

After all, for addicted parents on welfare, how they can support their children when they are also supporting an addiction? We want to ensure we are doing everything possible to get the support and treatment services to parents in need to change that. Prior to the province taking over the City of Winnipeg's welfare system, the city required its clients without chi ldren who had a chemical dependency to attend a treatment program. The city would terminate benefits if the client did not attend.

Upon implementation of one tier in April, the Department of Family Services adopted this policy, and we are taking steps to ensure that we are more aggressively encouraging addictive clients to get treatment. While parents with addictions will also be included in this initiative, their benefits will not be terminated for noncompliance. Our first priority will be the safety and security of children. We will exhaust every effort to ensure connection to early intervention initiatives.

In the case of continued refusal of treatment, Child and Family Services will be asked to put the necessary saf eguards in place to ensure that children are not placed at risk. * (1 500) It is estimated that funding will provide treatment to approximately a hundred parents each year. In most cases, treatment will be provided during the day while children are in school. For parents with young chi ldren, additional funding has been set aside for the child daycare program and overnight care.

Depending on the needs of each client and the severity of the dependency, the treatment may include residential detoxification, day program ming to address the addiction and ongoing support services to help clients improve their life skills, prepare to look for a job and find work. Our government knows that it is difficult to be a teen parent. We also know that dropping out of school increases the risk that they wiii fall

June 21, 19 99 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3069 into the trap of welfare dependency. Effective January of 2000, teen parents aged 16 and 17 years on welfare will be required to take parenting courses. Those with a child over six months will be required to attend school as well. Where there are no family supports, government will provide additional assistance for such things as child care and transportation. If a young parent with a child over six months refuses to continue his or her schooling, welfare benefits will be reduced on a graduated scale.

Sanctions include reducing payments by $50 per month for the first three months and by $100 per month after that. Any money deducted will be placed in a fund to be administered by a staffperson of a special support unit and will be used for items which will benefit the child and ensure that his or her needs are being met. The special support unit will be established to work with young parents to both encourage continuation of their schooling as well as to ensure that their children are not being put at risk.

Our government will be providing $1. 2 million toward providing such things as parenting programs, child care, transportation, training services and staff for the special support unit. We want young Manitobans to gain an education and be better parents so they are able to care and provide for their children in the years ahead. This is not about forcing youth to go to school as much as it is about ensuring youth recognize the importance of an education, both to them and their children. After all, if a parent is not prepared to help themselves, how are they going to be able to help their children?

By reaching out to these young people and by putting supports in place to help them stay in school and gain an education, we believe we can help more Manitobans stay on the road to self sufficiency, instead of falling into the trap of dependency. Young adults 16 and 17 years of age without children will be obligated to go back to school, be in training or do community service as a condition of receiving employment and income assistance. Currently, all income assistance clients with work expectations are expected to look for work or prepare for work.

Under this new initiative, young adults under 18 on welfare must go to school, go through a more structured and intensive job preparation and job search effort, or do community service. If an individual refuses to comply, welfare benefits will be terminated. We are also continuing to invest resources to help people find and keep work, especially single parents. These initiatives complement our Making Welfare Work strategy, which has resulted in many more people working and lower income assistance caseloads.

In 19 99-2000, our government will invest a total of $6.5 million in making welfare work programs to help Manitobans make the transition from welfare to work, including such programs as Taking Charge!, Community Services Projects, Rural Jobs Project, and Opportunities for Employment. We will continue to work in partnership with other jurisdictions to improve the situation of lower income families and children.

As part of this co-operative work, the first phase of the National Child Benefit was successfully launched in the past year and has been recognized throughout the country as a good start in addressing child poverty. This national initiative is the product of a co-ordinated effort involving the federal, provincial, and territorial governments. It has the commitment of governments of all political stripes to work together to develop and expand programs which prevent and reduce the depth of child poverty and promote attachment to the workforce.

We will continue to encourage the federal government to remain an active partner in addressing child poverty by significantly enhancing its investment to the National Child Benefit in the future. In 19 99-2000, Manitoba will be increasing spending for children, youth, and their families by $25 million, of which $1 1 million will be in initiatives which qualify under the National Child Benefit. Anticipated recoveries under the National Child Benefit, which are available for reinvestment by Manitoba, are estimated to be $7 million.

Accordingly, the province is investing more than $4 million from new provincial funding in 19 99-2000. We are

3070 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 19 99 investing these additional funds because of our commitment to addressing the needs of children on a long-term basis. This year Manitoba's reinvestments are building on the approach introduced in 19 98-99. We will again focus the largest portion on child care. We will add $5.3 million to the child daycare program to fund additional subsidized spaces, increased grant funding, and provide more funds for extended-hour care. Our total budget for child daycare will be more than $53 million. You will remember that I mentioned earlier the WIN program.

I am pleased to advise that we are expanding this program. Introduced in 19 98, the WIN program provides lower income families with access to community-based programming that covers a wide range of topics, such as the nutritional requirements of prenatal and postpartum women, infants and children, newborn care, parenting, child development, cooking, and shopping. Families on income assistance who attend these programs are eligible for a nutritional supplement of $65 per month starting during the last trimester of pregnancy and continuing throughout the child's first year of life.

In 19 98- 99, $1. 8 million was allocated to the program; $960,000 in additional funding has been allocated for 19 99-2000. A number of initiatives introduced through the Children and Youth Secretariat will be expanded as a result of the reinvestment of funds under the National Child Benefit system. The additional funds contributed by the province include EarlyStart, BabyFirst, and adolescent pregnancy programs. I am pleased to note that the C.D.

Howe Institute, one of the top think tanks in the country, recently released a nationwide study that says of all the provinces, Manitoba is making the best use of its share of the National Child Benefit to help fight child poverty by providing low-income families with added benefits and services. The C.D. Howe report commends Manitoba's 19 98 and '99 NCB investment of $1 5.2 million into early childhood intervention initiatives, school readiness programs for preschoolers, nutrition counselling for families, and other preventative approaches.

It argues that the other provinces should adopt variations of Manitoba's strategy by investing NCB funds in intervention programs to improve the prospects of children in disadvantaged circumstances. As we all know, disabled people often experience higher daily living costs than nondisabled people. As well, they often face special barriers to employment and require ongoing support services that make it difficult for them to become financially self-sufficient. Our government recognizes and wants to address these special circumstances and challenges.

We want to establish an income assistance approach that best meets the needs of Manitobans who have severe and permanent disabilities. Currently, there are about 12,000 disa bled Manitobans receiving EIA benefits. Many of these clients are eligible for additional benefits under the EIA program's Income Assistance for the Disabled component, which helps cover the extra costs associated with being disabled and living in the community.

In 19 99-2000, an additional $1. 4 million has been allocated to the Income Assistance for the Disabled program, increasing benefits from $70 to $80 per month. * (15 10) However, we have been asking ourselves would disabled clients be better served by a separate income support program or does the existing program need to be modified? These are some of the questions we are looking to find answers to. A number of other provinces, British Columbia, Alberta and Onta rio, have established separate income assistance programs for people with severe and permanent disabilities.

Other jurisdictions like Manitoba have adopted special policies and provisions for the disabled within their existing income assistance programs. However, it might be time for a change. To determine which route is best, our government will be consulting with all segments of the disabled community and their families

June 21, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 307 1 about the merits and possible design features of any new initiatives. A reference group will be established to work over the summer to develop and co-ordinate a consultation process to be implemented in the fall. It will have represen tation from Manitobans who have interest in programs and services for the disabled community. Over the next several weeks, community members will be appointed. The reference group will ensure that meaningful input is received from Manitobans with physical, mental, psychiatric, learning and other disabilities, and their families.

Particular attention will be paid to the views of disabled people currently receiving Employment and Income Assistance benefits. Based on the results of the consultation, our government will determine specific proposals which could include the introduction of new legislation. We are looking to make the program fairer and more comprehensive. As we move into the next century, we want to ensure that we have a program that meets the needs of Manitoba's disabled community. As I am sure my honourable friend is aware, a single system of income assistance in Winnipeg was successfully implemented as of April 1, 19 99.

The new system will reduce the administrative overlap involved in two levels of government providing similar services. Services required to meet specific needs of clients will now be del ivered from locations designed to meet those specific needs. During 19 99-2000, we will begin to extend the technological improvements associated with the introduction of one tier to our rural regional Employment and Income Assistance offices.

The Community Living Division provides co-ordination, direction and support for adult community living in vocational rehabilitation programs, the Manitoba Developmental Centre, regional delivery of social services and residential care licensing of adult care facilities. We continue to place a high priority on programs and services for adults living with a mental disability. Community-based services have been expanded and funding support for residential and day services agencies has been enhanced.

For the past four years, $22 million has been added to the Adult Services budget to assist those adults living with a mental disability who are in critical need of community living supports. This year we have added $8.7 million for services and supports for adults living with a mental disability, an increase of 12 percent over the previous year. This increase will provide additional residential and respite services for over 130 individuals.

In total , approximately 3,350 adults with a mental disability will receive supports to live in the community in a variety of settings including family homes, supported independent living and licensed residential care facilities. The funding increase will also allow for an expansion of the day services program ming for over 90 individuals. Approximately 2,200 individuals will participate in day services programs. Residential and day services agencies per diems will be increased by 5 percent in order to assist service providers in recruiting and retaining staff.

We will continue to work closely with service providers to ensure that individuals with mental disabilities are supported in daily living activities and are provided with the opportunity to live independently and participate in community life to the greatest extent possible. We will also work closely with community groups to develop pilot projects for seniors with mental disabilities and to test innovative approaches to family support, client-centred planning and self-directed care.

In the area of assisting Manitobans with disabilities to obtain and maintain employment, Manitoba signed the Employability Assistance for People with Disabilities agreement which took eff ect on April 1, 19 98. The EAPD agreement places greater emphasis on employment outcomes and measuring program eff ectiveness. Representatives of the disability community participated in an extensive consultation process with Manitoba officials. Their views, along with those of national disability groups, were taken into account in the development of the multilateral framework for the EAPD agreement.

Our vocational rehabilitation program and other staff will continue to engage community representatives in the implementation of the EAPD agreement. The Child and Family

3072 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 19 99 Services Division provides central program management for child and family services programs. While the division as a whole will see an increase in its budget, the child, family and community development component will see an increase of $8.8 million in its maintenance of children and external agency support area. Keeping children safe and protected from abuse and neglect is a primary objective of the department. The recent amendments to The Child and Family Services Act will strengthen our ability to meet the needs of children who are at risk.

This year, we will continue to be active in implementing this legislation as well as in contributing to efforts to intervene early in the lives of children and families to prevent longer term difficulties. The new Adoption Act will enhance our ability to facilitate adoptions to provide permanent homes for children. In 1999-2000 through the Winnipeg Development Agreement, the province is providing almost $500,000 in operating support and $346,000 for refurbishing living space for a parenting support project for at-risk adolescent mothers and their children.

We recently announced that the Family Dispute Services branch has been renamed the Family Violence Prevention branch. The new name, implemented as of April 1, 1999, was done partially as a result of the Lavoie inquiry recommendations but also in keeping with the general direction to address issues of family violence on a much broader level. For 1999-2000, we will increase support for services for families affected by domestic violence. Community consultations are currently underway to identify gaps in services and how these issues can be addressed through community-based initiatives.

Supervised access service, which has been implemented in the communities of Brandon and Thompson, will be expanded to Winnipeg. This service allows custodial parents to arrange for their children's visits with the noncustodial parent without needing to have contact with that parent. A high-quality child care system is an important part of my government's commitment to working parents. We understand the need for a system that is flexible and responsive to the needs of families. We are continuing to implement the recommendations of the child day care regulatory review committee.

Alternative child care arrangements will continue to be explored and created to meet the changing work needs of families. In 1999-2000, funding for the child daycare services has increased by $5.3 million for inf ant and preschool care, including an addition 500 subsidized spaces. Since 1987-88, almost 5,000 additional spaces have been created for the benefit of children and their families. As recommended by the regulatory review committee, the 1999-2000 budget provides resources to move towards a unit funding model for funded child care centres.

This model ensures that funding takes into account the staffing levels required by regulation, as well as the need to improve salary levels for early childhood educators. Opera ting grants for full time child care centres and infant preschool spaces will be increased by 15 and 10 percent respectively. Grant funding is being provided this year to approximately 1 ,600 currently licensed expansion and nursery school spaces. The 1999-2000 increase includes $1 million for the Children with Disabilities Program, to ensure that families with children with a disability are able to access child care support.

A 2 percent increase in operating grants for all family daycare spaces is provided in this year' s budget. In addition, the budget includes funding for all nonprofit nursery schools, including 2 percent to operating grants. Our 1999-2000 budget also provides increased funding for the development of rural child care. New operating grant funding of $500,000 will support the development of an additional 385 infant, nursery and preschool child care spaces outside the city of Winnipeg.

In the Children's Special Services area, an additional $645,000 will provide support for an increase of approximately 150 children and their families as well as funding for a Thompson site co-ordinator for the F AS telediagnostic model. *

(1520) We created the Children and Youth Secretariat in 1994 to provide a vehicle through which policy and programs for children could be

June 21, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3073 co-ordinated and early intervention and prevention initiatives could be initiated. A number of important early intervention and prevention programs have been introduced as a result of the co-operation and co-ordination efforts of the Children and Youth Secretariat. As mentioned earlier, in 1999-2000, we are expanding the EarlyStart program which provides focused early intervention for young children to increase school readiness and decrease the need for costly education, health and social services interventions in the future.

We are also adding funds to the BabyFirst program to provide services to families living in conditions of risk. BabyFirst emphasizes positive parenting, enhanced parent-child inter action, improved child health and development and optimal use of community resources. As well, we are implementing initiatives to delay pregnancy in adolescents. Finally, and in closing, I want to emphasize that in our allocation of expenditures for 1999- 2000 we have made a concerted effort to achieve and maintain a balanced approach to renewing and preserving services for the most vulnerable members of our society.

We have taken very seriously our responsibilities to Manitobans who require support and assistance in their time of need. We have also taken very seriously the needs of future generations of Manitobans, those children of families who require our assistance today in order to help ensure a positive future . In this effort, we have taken every opportunity to engage the community in meeting these challenges in the spirit of partnership and shared responsibility for meeting the needs of vulnerable families and individuals.

As we move forward this year and in the years to come we will continue to work with existing and new community partners. We will continue to develop innovative initiatives to help people to find work and to become self sufficient and to enhance the outcomes for children and families at risk. So I am looking forward to the dialogue and discussion around the departmental expenditures this year, and I certainly welcome comments from my honourable friend and his colleagues around some of the good things that are happening in Manitoba.

I know we always have dialogue, debate and discussion around some of the things my honourable friend may feel are not happening, but I certainly look forward to his comments, suggestions, recommendations and ideas on how we can continue to make our programs as eff ective as they can possibly be for those who need the support and the services from the Department of Family Services. Thanks, Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Cha irperson : I thank the honourable minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for Burrows have an opening statement? Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Some good things are happening in some parts of this minister's department, but this minister has a long way to go before she gets even a passing grade. In the past, this minister has had several nicknames. Last year I dubbed her the minister of pilot projects. This government likes to talk about partnerships, partnerships with business, partnerships in education, here a partnership, there a partnership, everywhere a partnership. There is one partnership this minister should be ashamed of and her government should be ashamed of; they are partners in poverty.

This government does not care that they have been the child poverty capital of Canada for several years and have been in the top three of the highest levels of child and family poverty for many years in a row. Welfare cases have grown. In the 1998 annual report, 74,000 people were recorded as being welfare recipients. In 1988, there were less than 62,000. The one-tier project or amalgamation of city with provincial welfare was plagued with problems from the beginning. It began with an untendered IBM contract.

Then there was the senior civil servant who violated conflict of interest guidelines by leaving government to work on a contract he helped design, then attended meetings with government officials less than a year later. After the April 1 change when the Province of Manitoba took over the City of Winnipeg's caseload, some people did not get their cheques, some cheques were late. Winnipeg Harvest had the largest ever number of people walk in

3074 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 requesting food. Some cases were not transf erred from the city to the province. Direct deposit information was not transferred. People did not know which office to go to. People could not find the office on Rorie Street because there is no signage. People could not get through on the phone. I am told there were 15,000 calls that were not answered. This government likes to brag about being an efficient government. There is no efficiency when 15,000 calls go unanswered.

One person tried 140 times to get through on the phone, gave up, went to the office in person, and got so frustrated he began taking his clothes off. Only then did he get an appointment. People were told they had to have an appointment. They could not walk in. It took three days to a week to get an appointment, if they could get through on the phone. Under the supposedly new and more ef ficient amalgamated system, the case co ordinators have caseloads of 170 or more.

They have to do everything that was formerly done by support staff and spend 50 percent of their time serving the bureaucratic needs of the system and too little time with clients helping them get off welfare and into a job. This minister is intent on eliminating staff with social work degrees and deprofessionalizing the staff. Staff are now case co-ordinators so there is no time or role for counselling abused women or protection planning. I am told by people on the front lines the intake assessment tool and the new intake process work very poorly.

Staf f transferred from the city to the province say the city's computer system was better, even though the province apparently spent $8,7 10,000 on new computers. Explaining the new system to clients was last on the government's agenda as it took months, repeated letters and phone calls from St. Matt hew's Maryland Community Ministry staff and phone calls and letters from the MLA for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) and I before Income Assistance staff were finally allowed to go to St.

Matt hew's Maryland Community Ministry and face the people most affected by the amalgamation to explain the new system and answer questions. If I were the minister, I would have gone myself, and certainly this minister, if she had the courage, could have gone in person and answered all the questions. Why you and your staff are afraid to face people who are poor and powerless is beyond me. At the very least, if you are going to make changes in the system, you should be prepared to def end the changes and even explain them.

Last week's warmed-over Mike Harris announcements are a damning admission that this government has failed to move people from welfare to work. A similar situation exists in child care centres where dozens of centres are advertising for ECE lis and ECE Ills and cannot get them. Those who are still working in child care are inadequately paid, considering they have two years of post-secondary education. Dozens of centres have provisional licences because they do not have the required ratio of qualified staff to children.

The result is that the quality of care has been compromised, and what was once the best child care system in North America under the NDP is deteriorating under this government's watch. Most of that time it has been under this minister's watch, since she has been the minister since 1993. There is a huge gap between this government's rhetoric and its actions. In the 1995 election, the PC Party said, and I quote: Our children are the most fundamental social investment we make in our society.

But according to the National Council of Welfare, the child poverty rate in Manitoba in December of 1998 had grown to over 25 percent, the highest rate in Canada. Manitoba was condemned by national organizations and the United Nations for provincial government policies which have contributed to child poverty.

In the 1995 election campaign, the PC Party said: Our health, education and social services must be child focused if we are going to make a positive difference in the lives of our children as they develop into healthy, competent, responsible citizens who will partici pate in enhancing the quality of life in communities throughout Manitoba. But according to the government's own Mason Report, quote: In Manitoba the Departments of Health, Education and Family Services are all reducing service. The

June 21, 1999 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3075 contraction of the human service envelope is exposing both natural and foster families to greater demand for child and family services. In the 1995 election, the PC party said: The Filmon government will maintain its ongoing commitment to finding and implementing more effective ways to successfully keep families together rather than intervene by taking children into direct, formal care.

But, according to Winnipeg Child and Family Services, between 1991 and 1998, the number of permanent wards brought into care rose by 42 percent at an increased cost of $10 .8 million in one agency alone. Today we have the highest rate of children in care in the country. *

(1530) Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair In the 1995 election, the PC Party said: The safety and care of children is of paramount concern. In situations where the family is unable to provide such care, the children should be placed in a safe, supportive environment. But, according to the Department of Family Services, the Filmon government spent $7.8 milli on in one year alone housing hundreds of children in hotels and shelters staffed by shift workers. By 1998, Winnipeg Child and Family Services stated that the use of hotel and shelters was at an all-time high. Under Mr.

Filmon's watch and this minister's watch, Manitoba had the highest rate of child poverty in Canada for several years, and for the most recent year for which statistics are available, Manitoba was virtually tied for second. Children make up over 40 percent of those using food banks in our province. Food banks went from an unknown phenomena to year-after-year record growth. Cuts to prevention services such as speech and hearing have compromised children's readiness for school. Cuts to education have compromised our children's ability to be prepared for the jobs of the 21st Century.

Cuts to recreation programs, such as the elimination of provincial funding to friendship centres, meant a cut in programs that have resulted in youth turning to destructive alternatives such as street gangs. And the list goes on. I would like to illustrate the list with some newspaper clippings. I will spare the minister the details. I will just read the headlines.

For example, on January 17, 1998, this headline: "Manitoba leads in teen pregnancies." From the Winnipeg Sun of June 14, 1998: "'New poor' tum to food banks." The first two paragraphs say: "People who use food banks are more educated, healthier and younger than most people think, a recent Montreal study shows-a trend which is mirrored in Manitoba. 'We find, when we do a snapshot of our users, about 25 per cent of the people are working or in transition,' said David Northcott, co-ordinator of Winnipeg Harvest." From July 4, 1998, by Nicholas Hirst of the Free Press, a column entitled "Focus on inner city kids." He points out that "last year there were 71,000 occasions that a child spent a night in short-term placements including hotels." He has some suggestions for solving these problems.

I do not agree with two of them, but a third one says: "Work on the root problems of a poverty-stricken, disil lusioned, depressed core area. Create 24-hour community centres out of schools and other community buildings. Have an inner-city housing program to reb)!ild and improve the stock that is there. Wor� W,ith the community groups to do that and emp1o1 inner city workers to do the building." July 8, 1998, a Free Press headline says: "Child benefit no extra help to recipients.

Single mother in 'total shock' after finding provincial welfare reduced by the same amount." July 28, 1998: "Crumbs for single moms." August 31, 1998: "City's poor are among poorest in land. Three of Manitoba's wealthiest areas in Winnipeg: Stats Can." The first paragraph says: "The least affluent neighbourhoods in Winnipeg are also among the poorest in Canada, according to a study released this month by Statistics Canada.

Incomes in the Winnipeg postal codes which begin R3A and R3B rank fourth- and fifth-last in the country when it comes to median income reported on 1996 tax returns." From The Globe and Mail, Friday, September 11, 1998 : "Food-bank users immune

3076 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 19 99 to economic good times. Handouts rationed as number of Canadians requiring emergency supplies jumps 5. 4%." From the Free Press September 16 , 19 98: "The market isn't working." September 11 , 19 98: "More people are using food banks in province to make ends meet." From December 8, 19 98: "Manitoba labelled child poverty capital." December 3, 19 98: "Sad progress on child poverty," the Winnipeg Sun. It was not just Winnipeg papers that noticed this.

The editorial in the Thompson Citizen for December 4, 19 98, says "Poverty capital of Canada unchanged," referring to Manitoba. December 14: "Feds fight child poverty, but province claws back." From December 3. 19 98: "Poverty's small faces. 72,000 children were living in destitution in Manitoba in 19 96. Poor families find it a never-ending struggle to make ends meet." December 19 98: "The other world intrudes," Frances Russell talking about "Two different worlds are becoming ever more visible in Manitoba and Canada," the two different worlds being one for the haves and one for the have nots.

December 4, 19 98: "Poor fall further behind." December 5, 19 98: "Canada gets failing grade on treatment of its poor. UN panel cites homelessness, rising use of food banks, welfare cuts." December 30, 19 98: "Quick way to cut poverty" headline on a story regarding attempts by governments, including this one, to redefine poverty in order to make the stats look better. From July 3, 1998: "Child workers' case load a danger," referring to the high workload requirements of Child and Family Services staff. July 10 , 19 98: Child and Family Services "to split up siblings in bid to cut hotel stays.

Separating children 'contrary to everything we've ever done.'" The first paragraph says "Winnipeg Child and Family Services officials want to keep kids out of hotels at all costs-even if it means separating them from their brothers and sisters." It really shows how desperate the situation is.

From November 1, 19 98: Child and Family Services "volunteers face an uncertain future." Now that we are into the spending Estimates of Family Services, we will see where the government is turning on the spending tap in a pre-election spending binge and where they are tightening the screws on the most vulnerable, also in a blatant attempt to get votes in a pre election period, an election postponed because they knew they could not win. The Acting Cha irperson (Mr. Dyck): We thank the critic from the official opposition for those remarks.

Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of the department. Accordingly, we shall defer consideration of this item and now proceed with consideration of the next line. Before we do that, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister then would introduce her staff that are present. So if they would please move forward. The honourable minister, to introduce her staff, please. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, I would like to introduce my deputy minister, Tannis Mindell; and assistant deputy minister for Administration and Finance, Kim Sharman. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Thank you. We will now proceed to line 9.1 Administration and Finance (

b) Executive Support ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits. That is on page 65 . Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I would like to ask the minister for the list of grants to external agencies. I went through the Estimates book this year and made a list of them. I do not know why I did not ask for all of them in previous years. That was a mistake on my part.

I will give you the whole list, and if I can get these tomorrow that would be great, or as soon as possible: the Community Living and Vocational Rehab programs, Maintenance of Children and External Agencies, the Family Support Innovations Fund, the family violence prevention External Agencies, and Children's Special Services Financial Assistance and External Agencies.

June 21, 1999 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3077 Mrs. Mitchelson: I know that we have provided the list of grants to external agencies in past years, and I know there was a recommendation by my honourable friend, or a request, that we break it down into different divisions for him. Just to show how very accommodating we are, we do have that list here today, and it is broken down I believe in the way he has asked for it. So I am prepared to be certainly as co-operative as I possibly can in providing information to my honourable friend. *

(1540) Mr. Martindale: I would like to thank the minister for following that suggestion and for having the list available so quickly. I would like to ask the minister, I guess I am going to have some questions on the first

section here. Since this includes Policy and Planning, I am wondering if there has been an evaluation of Taking Charge! and if the minister could make it available for me. Mrs. Mitchelson: It is my understanding that that report is almost completed in its final stage. It has to then be reviewed by the project review committee which is both federal and provincial appointments. Certainly once that has been finalized, it will be released publicly, and I will ensure my honourable friend gets a copy as soon as it is able to be released. Mr. Martindale: I thank the minister and look forward to getting the report.

Can the minister tell me if there are plans to extend the Taking Charge! program, or are you awaiting the evaluation? Mrs. Mitchelson: Although the federal govern ment has finished its funding commitment to Taking Charge!- the five-year pilot project is finished- there certainly was significant value in some of the programming that took place at Taking Charge! with I think over 1,200 women and their children moved from assistance and into the workforce as a result of various different programming activities.

We have continued our provincial funding in this year's budget, and we have added an additional $400,000 through Education and Training to Taking Charge! The federal government has directly flowed I think it is around $900,000 to Taking Charge! for one additional year, so they have some commitment for this fiscal year, but they say that will be the end of their funding.

As a result of the reduction in funding, Taking Charge!, the board and staff have had to take a look at what programming they have done, what programming has been the most effective and has had the greatest impact and determine what they are going to fund into the future, what kinds of programming they are going to fund. There is a significant reduction that has caused them to take a look at what has worked well and what has not. As with any pilot project, we know that not all pieces are successful.

It is important that an evaluation is done and that you build upon the strengths of any of the program components, and that is exactly what Taking Charge! is looking at right now. I think what they are beginning to focus on in a more significant way is those single parents who have the greatest needs and significant support required. We know that that is not always the cheapest program, that sometimes they are the most costly programs, but when there are multiple needs and there is a lot of work to do, I think they feel that that is probably the area where they need to focus their attention and direction.

That is what they are in the process of implementing as they move forward and look at the resources they have and where they can best be spent. Mr. Martindale: I understand that Taking Charge! is funding some adult literacy programs, and I am wondering if those are going to continue or if they are going to be terminated, I guess. Mrs. Mitchelson : I do not have a specific answer to that, but I can certainly undertake to get that information from Taking Charge! and provide it. Mr. Martindale: Under Information Systems, it is my understanding that Information Systems have been contracted out to Systemhouse.

Is that right?

3078 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 Mrs. Mitchelson: Right across government, government-wide, we have gone to a desktop management system with Systemhouse that will provide standardized software and hardware right across the board. So it is a government wide project. Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell me how many staff went from Family Services to Systemhouse? Mrs. Mitchelson: Six staff from the Department of Family Services went to Systemhouse. Four of these were as a result of the desktop initiative. Mr.

Martindale: Can the minister tell me if the contract with Systemhouse is available to me or it is confidential? Mrs. Mitchelson: I am told that because it is a government-wide initiative, the initiative reports to the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Gilleshammer) through the Office of Information Technology. So the contract would be under the auspices of the Department of Finance, where that question would be most appropriately asked. We do not have individual contracts with Systemhouse. It is a government-wide contract. * (155 0) Mr.

Martindale: Is the contract broken down in any way so that you would know how much the services provided to your department are worth? Mrs. Mitchelson : If we look at page 73 of the Supplementary Information, it will indicate what the Amortization of Capital Assets for information technology are for the Department of Family Services. For the Desktop Manage ment Initiative, the capital for this year allocated from the Department of Finance to the Department of Family Services is $2.569 milli on. That would be our portion of the whole initiative that would be assigned to Family Services from the central contract.

On page 35 of the Estimates, the amount that would be seen here would be our central support for Information Systems. Then you would find within different divisions or branches some additional costs for implementation of technology. So there would be some allocated in here. This would be our central support piece. There is some in every division then. Mr. Martindale: Going back to page 75, where it says Family Services $8,7 10,000, does that refer to computers as well? Mrs. Mitchelson : On page 75, this is the capital investment for information technology to develop the one-tier system with the City of Winnipeg.

Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell me, on page 73, if the $3, 177,000 is also for computers? Mrs. Mitchelson: The amount on page 73 would include the hardware for the one-tier system, and on page 74 would be the building of the system, the software for the one-tier project. Mr. Martin dale: Would it be accurate to say that if you add $3 .1 million and $8.7 milli on, that is what the department is spending on computers? *

(1600) Mrs. Mitchelson: For clarification, when you talk about spending on computers, are you talking hardware and software combined or are you talking about purchase of computers, or what are you talking? Mr. Martindale: Both hardware and software. Mrs. Mitchelson : I am not sure if I am clear on the question that was asked, but on page 73, it is the hardware, right? It is the computers. On page 75, it is the development of the program which is a one-time cost for the implementation of the one-tier initiative. Does that answer the question? Mr. Martindale: Mr.

Chairperson, I thought the question was fairly easy, and that is how much are you spending on computers this year, hardware and software? I thought if I added the number at the top of page 75 and the number at the top of page 73, I might get the total, but it does not seem to be that clear.

June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3079 Mrs. Mitchelson: I think I have it. The total IT budget excluding capital is $9.2 mill ion, and then if you add the capital from page 73, the 2.569, that is the total expenditure of the Department of Family Services on IT this year. You asked for the total costs with capital, and I guess you are looking for hardware and software and staff. That is the total number. Mr. Martindale: If that is the number the minister is giving me, then I guess that is the number that they spent this year on computers.

I would like to ask the minister, on page 35 under subappropriation 09- 1 G, Other Operating has increased from $12,000 to $144,000. I wonder if the minister can explain that particular line. Mr. Chairperson in the Chair Mrs. Mitchelson: Of the $9.2 mill ion that we indicated that was spent on Information Technology, the Other Operating, this is part of it. As we said, it was allocated throughout the department. The $144,000 is in this line. Mr.

Martindale: If I could clarify, I think the minister was trying to tell me in a previous answer and this one that the costs of operating the computer systems are spread throughout your department, so on several pages there would be a similar operating line? Okay. Going back to the computer system, presumably if it says amortization, it is amortized over a number of years. I wonder if the minister can tell me how many years the computer acquisition is amortized over. Mrs. Mitchelson : We have a government capital policy, and that is amortization over 15 years. So this is part of the overall government policy. Mr.

Martindale: In a brochure that I got about the help desk, it says that it is available 24 hours a day. I am wondering how many civil servants are working after midnight. Is there a demand for a 24-hour-a-day help desk, and, if so, what is the demand? Mrs. Mitchelson : It is run by Systemhouse. It is a help line and it would be available there for those who are having difficulty with their computer system after hours, so anyone who works after-hours hours, whether it be, I suppose, in Corrections, Citizens' Inquiry, any type of after-hour service that might be provided through our regional services.

Any of those activities that are ongoing throughout government that would be the nontraditional working hours, the help desk is there and available and it is part of the contract with Systemhouse. * (1610 ) Mr. Martindale: Well, I am glad to know that 24-hour help is available for your hard-working civil servants. I know one of them phoned me at 6 a.m. which is one of the advantages of this modern technology, you know who called you and when, which, as we know, is causing the Minister of Justice great problems right now. I do have a question about that.

I understand that, you know, civil servants often work until five or six o'clock because I frequently talk to them between that time, but are you paying for a service that is not used very much? I mean, how many people are working after six o'clock every night. Mrs. Mitchelson: Given that there is a government-wide contract, each department provides some support to the after-hours help line.

I guess my honourable friend might be critical of that support being available, but I guess I would have to question whether he would think that during a forest fire or a flood situation where the citizens of Manitoba might need support from Natural Resources or Emergency Measures that we do not have any support available and if there are things on the system that need to be accessed by those that are working providing that kind of emergency services in our correctional facilities if there was a problem with the computer and those who are working shift work or evenings or nights within our correction system could not have access to a help line if they needed to get some information off the systems.

Or in Regional Services, I know that in some of the regions, I know some of the areas of

3080 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 21, 1999 our province are served by child-mandated Child and Family Services agencies, but I know that our department provides that service throughout many ofthe regions of the province of Manitoba.

Especially in the North, if there was a child in need of protection and we needed to access some kind of information after hours, I would sense that, I would hope that if his party was in government they would believe that the citizens of Manitoba should have that kind of support and service, and we should be able to access information to provide the most appropriate and timely support possible. Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): I am going to ask for my two colleagues to allow me to do this. I am trying to monitor three committees right now. I have some questions in the area of investigations in income security.

I am wondering where that comes. I do not know if I will be able to be here when you get to that line. but I was not here at the start of this department's hearings. Are you going line by line? What line would that line be in, income security in regard to the investigations? I will be asking questions in regard to the emphasis on proactive investigations and the number of investigators since the amalgamation of the two. Where would that be, and any idea when you would be getting to that? Mr. Cha irperson: I did not recognize the honourable member as a point of order, so I am not going to rule on that.

I did understand that the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) conceded to the honourable member for The Maples, so hopefully your question has been dealt with. Mr. Martindale: I thank the minister for her answer. She mentioned things that I had not already thought of which probably justify having 24-hour help. In fact, I am one of the people that could use 24-hour help except that it is not available to me, but perhaps maybe after the next election it will be available to me. I would like to ask the minis ter if the IBM contract for the one-tier system would be available to me.

I have a copy of the business case but the contract, I presume, is somewhat different. I am wondering if that is available for me. Mrs. Mitchelson: The contract with IBM around the one-tier system is not a separate contract with IBM. There is a contract with IBM for Better Systems which is the one-tier project, plus some projects in Education and Training, Consumer and Corporate Aff airs, Finance and the Department of Labour, so that is one contract with IBM, and that falls under the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gilleshammer) again. There would be information available on that contract.

I guess, ask in Finance Estimates. Mr. Martindale: I wonder if the minister could tell me how much the one-tier part of that contract is worth. What was it costing your department? Mrs. Mitchelson: That is the number that is on page 75 in the Supplementary Estimates. It is $8.7 million. Mr. Cha irperson: Item 9. 1. Administration and Finance (

b) Executive Support (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $521 ,500-pas s;

(2) Other Expenditures $80,7 00-pass. 9. l .(

c) Social Services Advisory Committee (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $207 ,BOO pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $159, I 00-pass. 9.l .(

d) Human Resource Services (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $83 1 ,8 00-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $88, 800-pas s. 9. l .(

e) Policy and Planning (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $8 16, I 00-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $177, 700-pass. 9. J .(

f) Financial and Adminis trative Services (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1, 756,8 00-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $493,4 00-pass. 9 .l.(

g) Information Systems (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,51 9,000-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $8 18,900-pass. 9.2. Employment and Income Assi stance (

a) Client Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Services $2 1 ,246,000.

June 21, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 308 1 *

(1620) Mr. Kowalski: I have some questions in regard to the investigative unit in this department now. I am going to ask to be sort of educated into how the department is run and some background information, especially concerning the amal gamation of the City of Winnipeg income security with the provincial. Just so I know either the positions or the persons, I would like to relate it to what my knowledge is, a person by the name of Don Feener. Now, I am not too sure what his role is, if he is an associate director of that.

Could you tell me what his position is and who he reports to and what the chain of command is before the amalgamation, before the amalgamation of the two departments, where he was? Mrs. Mitchelson: I am hoping I am answering the question. Don Feener is the director of Investigations reporting to the director of Compliance who is Lawrie Cherniack who has just arrived at the table here. I also did not introduce Gisela Rempel when she came to the table. She is our ADM of Employment and Income Assistance. Mr. Kowalski: Was that the same situation before the amalgamation?

Was it the same structure and the same personnel before you amalgamated the City of Winnipeg and the provincial income security? Mrs. Mitchelson: The structure has been changed as a result of the amalgamation. In the past we had a head of Investigations. With the amalgamation, there was a position created, director of Compliance, which is a new structure. Mr. Kowalski: Does that signal any change in emphasis or direction? Investigations can be proactive where you are searching out fraud, people who are not needing or not deserving of social assistance.

You could do proactive inves tigations, whether it is working with other government departments, whether it is-at one time I believe you had an informant line; I do not know if you still have that,

whereas Compliance to me sort of indicates Jess of a proactive role and more of a role of just looking at the applications and ensuring that the information is right. Has there been a change in emphasis? Is that idea of Compliance a change of direction? Mrs. Mitchelson : It is not Jess proactive. have to indicate there have been a lot of other functions, and there are a lot of other issues to deal with.

Now, as a result we have an amalgamated system, and we have to ensure that people who might have in the past been on the City of Winnipeg case load as single employable individuals are not cohabiting with someone that might have been-! mean, there are issues around trying to ensure that we are only paying one welfare cheque for one reason to an individual. We also, with our announcements that were made last week, are going to be much more proactive in trying to ensure that we work with single parents to ensure that they are getting all of the maintenance that they should be getting from a partner.

We are going to be, because I know that sometimes within the Justice system it is not one of the highest priorities, hiring paralegals within the Department of Family Services to work proactively with women to ensure that we are holding the other partner accountable for- An Honourable Member: Not always women. Mrs. Mitchelson : No, and that is why I said the other partner-accountable and ensuring that there is some onus and responsibility to ensure that you are supporting a child that you may have been somewhat responsible for.

So we are going to proactively seek that kind of support and ensure that people are contributing financially to the support of their children. Mr. Kowalski: I am looking now for numbers. Prior to the amalgamation, how many investigators were there in the provincial end of it and how many investigators were working with the City of Winnipeg investigating? My understanding is that possibly the City of Winnipeg did not have dedicated investigators as much as they relied on

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-5-47
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 5th hansardpdf 47.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	34f631e5cbf46169350b7d04c0839c1b3457fca9

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