PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEHBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, MAY 4, 1977

/ '"~av 4 ,1?7:- Tape 2146 The House met at 3 P.M. ~fr. Speaker in the Chair. HR.. SPEAKER: Order please. STATEYE!'lTS RY ~fi:IISTEP.S: AE-1 ~~. SPEAKER: Hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. HAYNARD: ~fr. Speaker, I wish to provide the Rouse with a status report on the planning Tihich is taking place in relation to the Spruce Budworm Research Programme we are tmdertaking this year.

One part of the program, details of Hhich were announced by me earlier in '~arch , involves the spraying of five test blocks in Central and Western parts of the Island using n1o chemical insecticides - fenitrothion and matacil and also a biological insecticide B.T. Stephenville Airport has been chosen a.s the base of operations for the limited spraying program. Arrangements • for office accomodations, insecticide storage, disposable containers and personal accomodations have all been finalized for the Stephenville Area.

Satisfactory progress has been made in purchasing of all equipment and insecticide and the necessary pump tanks related to the orogram have been requisitioned through the Government Purchasing Agency and I understand the purchase orders have been issued. The Forest Protection Division in co-operation ~·lith the Canadian Forestry Service is finalizing plans for monitoring of the budworm development. This phase of the program is extremely important, since it is necessary to determine precisely the insect development to achieve maximum benefits in terms of insect mortality. Plans are also being made to 6(;05

~ ·1ay 4,19 77 AH-2 HR. 'M.A YN ARD : carry out both snray and post-spray surveys in order to determine actual ~ortality from the insecticide and the effective coverage from the spray aircraft. Four sampling crews ~vill be o~erating in the field and T..rill be suoported by vehicles Nhere road access is 1?0ssible and ~;vill be transported by helicooter 'tvhere necessary elsewhere. The period in which the field survey r.;ork will be conducted is. betT..reen ~ay 15th and July 31st.

Ro~.;ever, actual spray operations will not last more than a week to ten days - in early to mid-June·de?ending on the weather conditions i.n the Spring. Two temporary laboratories ~vill be established, one at Pasadena and one at Bishop's Falls. Each laboratorY will be staffed by ten people and student assistants ro1ill be en g a~ed ~~der the sunervision of a senior technician from the Canadian Forestry Service in the counting of insect ~opulations and determining the larval develooment in re~.ation to the location in Nhich the insect sampling was carried out.

Hay 4, 1977 Tape no. 2147 Page 1 - ms Insect samples for~ the basis fer a decision as to whether or not larval development has progressed to a point which would make them vulnerable to chemical insecticide. Information from the regional labs will be forwarded on a daily basis to the spray headquarters at Stephenville. Qualified aircraft spray contractors were invited to supply aircraft and personnel for the actual spray operation and the contract for this important aspect of the work has been awarded to Conair Aviation Limited of British Columbia.

Conair has a national reputation in forest protection both in waterbombing and aerial application of chemical insecticides. The company has been engaged in previous years by Forest Protection Limited of New Brunswick and by the Province of Quebec for spray operations in these areas. They also were the company which conducted the major -portiocof the spray operation in this Province during the hemlock looper infestation in 1968 and 1969. The aircraft to be employed during the experimental program in 1977 will consist of one DC-6B, two Cessna Agwagons and . . a Twin Engine Supervisory Control Aircraft.

In addition, ~~ Jet Ran2er helicopters will be engaged for survey work and other related activities. The primary chemical inse.cticides being used have been purchased. The aminocarb, matacil, has been purchased from Chemargo Limited of Hississauga, Ontario. This is the only company to manufacture this chemical in Canada. Forest Protection Limited of New Brunswick will supply the chemical f eni troth ion • The :i3ac terium B. T. will be purchased from Sandoz Inc., of San Diego, California.

A very small amount of the chemical o-rthene will be used with B.T. and is being obtained from Chevron Chemicals of Canada Limited. Planning has also been progressing well in assisting the Environmental Branch of the Department of Consumer Affairs and Environment in establishing a detailed environmental assessment of the experimental program. I am sure my colleague, the Hinister of Consumer Affairs and Environment will be more than happy to provide the details on this important aspect of the program. 6007

May 4~ 1977 Tape no. 2147 Page 2 - ms Hr. :!aynard. · I am also happy to announce that the President of Memorial University , M~. M. 0. Morgan~ has acce~ted my invitation to establish an impartial and independent committee to examine relevant documents concerning the spruce budworm problem and to prepare a report for government by Fall of 1977, which will advise government on the possible effects of the current spruce budworm epidanic on the Province's forest resource and the industry of the Province and realistic solutions to the budworm problem.

Details of the composition of this committee have been made by the president and further announcements will be made by !1r. Morgan or theqtairma.n of the committee, Dr. D. H. Re:1dell. My department will also be undertaking a public information program to make available all the facts concerning the budworm problem and to outline government's position regarding its decision to conduct a limited spray program in 1977. The information primarily will consist of radio advertisements outlining the various aspects of the program together with newspaper advertisements.

Senior staff members of the department will also be available for public discussions and interviews when requested. I am also pleased to announce that my deputy minister, Mr. Clarke, has been asked to act as interim Council of the Eastern Spruce Budworm Council, a Council which will consist of senior Government representatives from the Atlantic Provinces, Quebec and Ontario, as well as the forestry representatives from the Canadian Government, U.S. Government, and the State of Maine.

The formation meeting of this Council took place in Quebec City in the first week of March and a further meeting is scheduled and will be hosted by my department in St. John's and . . is tentatively scheduled for same time in ~~y. I will be announcing further details of that proposed meeting at a further date. In general, Mr. Speaker, the whole program is progressing smoothly, and I will continue to keep the House informed. 6008

May 4, 1977 Tape no. 21 47 Page 3 - ms MR.. SPEAKER: ' Th.e hon. member for 1-lindsor - Bucnans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, just a bri.ef r.eply to the minister 's -statement. On behalf of this side of the Rouse, one, let me say we have supported the minister or the government in their apprBaeh, the experimental approach to sp.rayillg. We recognize the . dilemma that the minister or the acUninistration finds itself in. We reeogniz .e it is a damned if yw do and .damned if you do not situation. However, 6u09

May 4, 1977 (afternoon) Tape No • 2148 NM - 1 MR. FLIGHT: we have to accept or we have to believe that the ~xpertmental spray programme is exactly what it says it is. There are some groups in Newfoundland today ~vho believe that the experimental spraying programme is the thin end of the ~vedge, that it is a cushioning of the effect, that the administration's intention is to come in with an experimental spray programme this Summer and go whole hog next year. Tna1: may or may not be true but as I said it is a concern in this Province.

Now it is interestin-g this oast several months, since the government have indicated their intention to have an e~er±mental programme 7 that knowledgeable groups, knowledgeable people have come out very strongly and are asking questions as to whether or not, regardless of what the results of the experimental programme is) we should spray.

It is very interesting that Ed Ralph- • I am sure the minister is aware of Ed Ralph's opinions- now nobody will critize or question Ed Ralph's authority with matters pertaining to forest . managemert and he is one individual .. ~vho has indicated that he is not at all impressed or not at all sure that spraying will be the answer. So what has got to be said I think, Mr. Speaker, is that number one 1 the public has got a right to know the results of that spraying ~rogramme.

There are some other groups who think that maybe the purpose of the spraying experimental programme as outlined by the minister is not so much to determine the effects on the spruce budworm as to perfect the method of spraying itself in this Province. Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the conservation grouos, on behalf of the peo~le who are afraid of the results of a spraying progr~e, I would suggest to the minister, and suggest 6{)10

~~y 4, 1977 (afternoon) Tape No. 2148 NM- 2 ~. FLIGHT: to the Rouse that there be no attemnt at all to treat this experimental programme and the results ~rith any secrecy at all, that the environmental groups should have complete access to the results of the spraying programme, Indeed I have heard that some of the larger and more equipped groups are looking at the possibility of doing their own ~al::l~i~ ·frcu. :he :ime :ha s-praying programma · begins until it is ended.

And I think that if they had the resources and are able tolthen I think that they should be permitted to carry on their own analysis right on the site where the spraying is going ahead. So, Mr. Speaker, having said that there is another thing that interests me personally; I am aware, as are all Newfoundlanders aware, that the minister · spent three or four days in Corner Brook having discussions r.;ith the paper companies and as I understand it the purpose of the discussion was actually to talk about the budworm.

Now we are aware through the media and otherwise that at least one of the paper comoanies if not both, has been putting pressure on the minister and on government to cancel the experimental spraying programme and go into a full ~11-out massive spraying programme and I would very !!luch appreciate it if the minister would indicate to the House whether or not there has been any change in the original programme as a result of his meetings in Corner Brook.

Having said .that, ~r, Speaker, we will go along and support the experimental programme and hope that the end result is in the better interest of the Province and the forestry industry, ~m. ~~YNARD: Ask it during the Question Period, HR. FLIGHT: I ~-1ill ask the question in the 0uestion Period, yes. ~ffi. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Mines and Energy, 6·'(.1-f v ....J..

May 4, 1~77 (af'ternoon) Tape No. 2148 NH- 3 MR. PEOOGRD.: Xr .. Speaker, ·-I ··understand that I have unanimous consent of the House to prol). os~ a motion making a number of amendments to the Standing Orders to facilitate the more orderly attention by all ho.n. members on t.he estimates. A number of days ago, Mr. Speaker, I did make the motion and we ran: into some difficulty. So I can mQVe ahead now if I do have that una.nimaus consent. MR. SPEA!aR: Does the hon. ~er have leave to present the motion a~ ehis time? · Agreed. MR.. PECKFORD : Mr.

Speaker, by y~ guidan-ce and by the guidance of all ho:n. mem.ber.s here in the ROuse is it necsssary for me to read through the motion again, the am.esr.dments!. I th±nk most bent• ~ are aware af what is inYo:lved her.e, one to just 6C12

Hay 4, 1977 Tape no. 2149 Page 1 - ms ~r. Peckford. summarize very briefly, it has to do with the hours of the House for the estimates, and secondly, the allocation of time for each ·af the departments so all of them are called. So, Hr. Speaker, without further adieu I would move the amendments to the Standing Orders as distributed to all hon. members a few days ago. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SMALLWOOD: The hon. member, Mr. Speaker, is overflowing with brotherly love. MR. NEARY: And sisterly love. MR.. SMALLWOOD: No, no! Jus~ brotherly. MR. • ROBER'IS: Mr.

Speaker, ought we not to divide on it so we can record the thirty-four. MR. SPEAKER: Yes, I think that is a good suggestion. I would ask hon. members whether as technicalJ.v the motion has to be put, whether it will be taken as put or whether hon. members wish me to read it? MR. NEARY: · ·Mr. Speaker, I take the motion as put. I have no hesitation at all. MR.. SPEAKER: Is the House ready for the question? Those in favour "aye." Contrary "aye." I declare the motion carried. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. Those in favour of the motion please rise: The hon. Premier, th.e hon.

Uinister of Transportation and Communications, the hon. Minister of Tourism, the hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, the han. Minister of Health, the han. Minister of Social Services, the hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs and Enviro~~ent, • the hon. Minister of Rural and Industial Development, the han. Minister of Xines and Energy, the hen. Xinister of Finance, the han. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, the hen. Minister of Fisheries, 6D13

Hay 4, 1977 Tape no. 214, Page 2 - ms the hon. Minister of Education, Dr • Collins, Mr. Young, Dr • Twomey, !11::.. Goudie, Mr. Windscr, Mr. Cross, Mr Patterson, Mr. Carter, Mr. Woodrow, Dr. Winsor, Mr. Harshall. The hon. Leader of the Opposition, Mrs. Macisaac, Mr. Canning, Mr. Strachan, Mr. Nol.an, Mr. Simmons, the hon. Mr. Smallwood,, Mr. Lush, Mr. Moores, Mr. Flight, Mr ~- Rowe, Mt'. Winsor, YJI. NE:ary. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAlCER: The motion is carried thirty-seven in favour, none against. S'OME RON. MEMBE'RS : MR.sP:iA.KE1: Env.Uonment • MR. MURPHY: Hear, hear!

Are there. any further ministerial statemen .ts? The. tm.u .. Mini.st:er of C0ll'SD!m!r Affairs and the :Hr. Speaker, . I was hoping to say at first that pos .sib.ly in view of the gQOd attendance, we might get a half day, and. .get out of here~ But witb reference to my statelllent, it is in conjunction with the .stateDtent just issued by the Minister of Forestry and Agrl.eul ture. _ 6D14

May 4, 1977 Tape 2150(Afternoon) 1:-!R. HURPHY: P.El:' _~::g the fall of 1976 my Q_f;icials were invited to participate in discussions regarding possible measures which might be taken to control this current serious outbreak of spruce budworm in the forests of this Province. r~en it became evident that only a chemical spray programce could have any short-term r effect on the bud"tvorm, 'tve provided to my colleague, the hon. Hinis ter of Forestry and Agriculture our vie~·7S conc _ern:J:n.g _the possible environmental implications of such a programme.

At the same time it tvas agreed that, should a spray programme be undertaken, my ~partment would co-ordinate an environmental monitoring project to assess the side-effects,if any. Since government announced i~s decision to carry out a limited spray programme) an -~nv_i~_orim.ei1tal Mon~toring C~~- ~E--~_e _ has been set up under the C}:lairiiJ.an~h~p of one of my p_f_f~c.i,. als. This Committee includes representation from the Departments of Forestry and Agriculture, JH - 1 Health and Tourism, · (~.Jiidlif_e . _ ~i~i~~o~), as well as Memorial University and the Federal Department of Fi~heries and Environment.

Excellent co4operation is being received from several federal agencies partic~la~~Y-_ the Environmental Protection Service and the Chemical Control Research Institute, each of tvhich has volunteered · - .,__ '- to direct a segment of the monitoring work and t _o_ 'tYrite _;~e. report on that segment.

Most of the work will be performed by a temporary staff of twelve senior students with special abilities in this field under the direction of a Pt:?j ect S_u1'e~~s~t: ._ This t.rork force will be organized in three teams, each of "tvhich will be responsible for monitoring the side- effects of a different chemical spray. The areas selected for study include spray blocks located near Stephenville, Corner Brook, near P.ampden _ (~~-lit~ Bay) and on Noel Paul 1 s Brook in Central Ne~,;foundland.

The studies ':vill commence before the spray programt:le, folloving a t\·70-T,Jeek period of intensive training in and around St. John's. In each study area:the dosage of pesticide applied to _ 6G15

Tape 2150(Afternoon) JM- 2 MR. MURPHY: the fares t ·environment •.vill be · estimated using a . . techni.que involving sprayed droplet recording cards which are later analysed by a computerized scanning process. Samples of soil and foliag~ will be collected, frozen,and shipped to Ontario for analysis of any pesticide residues. Bees 'and other insects will be collected in order to examine any changes in population levels follo"t.;ing each spray application. Within each area> streams will be selected for water sampling and for the study of fish and aquatic insects.

Throughout the spray programme and for sometime afterwar~ local bird populations will be studied for any evidence of side effects. Several weeks after the last spray application 1 shrews representing the 'small mammat population,will be captured and examined for any sign of harmful effects on the reproductive process. Rabbits (snowshoe hares) are also to be . . .. ·-.. . studied in a similar fashion. For each of the above subjects) results from the sprayed area t.;ill be compared with those from a nearby unsprayed area.

In the matter of public environmental health) the main concern is for the safety of those persons who 'tvill be handling the pesticides. These operators will wear protective clothing and equipment. As an extra precaution)all hospitals located near spray · blocks will be provided by the Department of Health with information on the pesticides, the symptoms of direct exposure to them in their liquid fo~and the medical attention required in such cases.

Based on recent experience in New Brunswick, Quebec and elsewhere,there is no reason to anticipate any harmful effects on the general public,even if persons should happen to be exposed to the spray. However)the spray operation will be closely monitored. Separate reports on all of these areas of stud~ 'vritten by specialists in each field,will be compiled into a single environmental report which will be presented to Government by the end of October, 1977. Respectfully submitted. SOXE HON. NENBERS: Hear, • I ne.ar. 6·G16

~ray 4, 1977. Tape 2151 R..tt - 1 PRESE~ITHTG PETITIO':'TS : ~iR. SPP:A:KE~: The hon. member of Burin-Placentia Hest. ~fr. Speal~er, I rise to ?resent a petition, a very large petition, first from my m·m district, the district I reoresent, Burin-Placentia Fest and secondl:1, another oetition from the district of Grand Rank. It is pertaining to - both petitions are similar} the~=ayers of beth ~etitior.s ~re s~ila= ~~d I will ?=esent both at one time. ~rr. Sl)eaker, I do not know if that gives me five minutes or ten. But, ~rr.

Speaker, I have to present the one from Grand Bank first because I am told that the - ~1R. SPEAKER: Order, please! Perhaps the hon. gentleman might wish to be informed on that. My understanding is that strictly speaking if he would like to present both together it ~vould be five, by leave he ~vould have ten. He obviously has the right to present t~vo separate petitions as ~•ell. SO~ RON. MEHBEP.S : Agreed by leave. YR. SPE...<\...T(ER: ~'ffi. • m:A..-r:tY : Agreed? ~r. Speaker, let me clarify.

If the han. ~ember is talking about oetitions that he has from various communities because there are other districts involved in this petition~ ' ~"R. SPEA.T{ER: Is it agreed the hon. gentleman in presenting two petitions will have ten minutes by leave. Agreed. tfR. SPE~_f{ER: Agreed. MR. CANNING: ~~r. Speaker, it may not take me ten minutes. But I wanted to get that clarified because it is unusual to have to present the other petition under the oresent circumstances.

As I .i ust stated, I have been told that the minister said that he did not want any part of it because it was in conflict with his ministerial nost as ~-finister of Justice, that the Board of Public Ctilities came under that depart~ent. "rr. Sneaker, I do not !<.no•,r how ~Talid that is. but I do not think there - 6017

}[ay 4, 19 77 . T3.ne 2151 RP. - 2 is any validity there ~vhatever. I think he can get up in this Eouse as a member of the House of Assembly, present a petition to the peoples' House, be perfectly in order. And I think it would be his duty to present this and to defend it on behalf of the people. Hr. Speaker, the prayer of this petition, of course, is simply that the people ask: this Reuse to gi·:e -:heL1 protection ,...,.._..:_t"-... U.r.c.. ........ J....., .... f~rt~er raises of electricity rates this year or in the future years. ~r.

Speaker, about just over forty-eight hours ago I presented a similar petition on behalf of approximately 500 people in my district. The petition I am now presenting is somewhat similar in many ways but in one aspect of this petition it stands out very conspicuously, Mr. Speaker, and it is this: The voice of this petition comes through me from the people who find themselves in a desperate position economically already)o~v.lng to high rising costs. r.~e neonle who have not access to the area of defense that is available to nrevent further raises in the cost of living 1 they have taken the - Oh, oh! ~ffi..

C.A~1NTNG: ~~r. Speaker, I am ahrays asking - I am ~oing to ask again if the F:ouse ~rill just keep quiet because I can assure you that this matter here is of utmost importance. AN HON. ~fE''!-ffiFR: Pear, hear! YR. CANNING: There are 5,401"1, over 5,431, about 6,'100 neople here who have come to this House through me, through their representative to ask the heln of the Rouse. That is cvhat thf! "R:ouse is for. That is ,.;hat petitions are for. And this I will trv to do if I can get the indul~ence of the !:ouse. }!r. Sneaker, thev "Lave taken the onl v neasure available to them.

They are petitionin~ this House, their Fouse of Assernl:lly, pravin~ 6D18

~ay 4, 1977 (afternoon) Tape No. 2152 MR. CANNING : for our help, the people whose names I hold here, sent me here to do exactly what I am about to do so I am going to a~proach this petition in a constructive manner and give justice to the request and ask the support of this Rouse. Mr. Speaker, why I say that they are in a position where they cannot a:J:proach the area o'f defence is the fact that those people number one, they cannot come into St. John's to meet the Public Utilities Board to put up there case. They definitely just cannot do it.

I ~"M - 1 got hundreds of names there who will be down on the Grand Banks. 'rhere are literally over 1,000 people,at least,who will be working on t-lte production line in a fish plant when those hearings are going to be heard 1 so they just cannot be here. Then of course there are others who just cannot come to St. Johri's to present their case to the board. So what they are doing through a democratic process through their House, they are asking us to support them, to defend them against rising costs what they think would be unjust and beyond their means. Now, Mr.

Speaker, there is no need for me to go into the cost of living today, the other costs other than electricity but I will just give some figures that I have gotten, actually right from the ±nvoices of the bills for electricity. And it goes something like this, this Winter I checked modern homes, insulated, I checked on older homes that were not insulated who were using electricity and the lowest monthly bill I got would be approximately $70, and I got from that to $180 per month.

So there is no need 7 when I have over like I said over 5,000 or 6,000 people th~re in that particular area,there is no need of my going into any detail or using any of my time to present this petition to prove that this cost has just gone to its utmost. It is about as much as the people can stand. They realize that. And they just cannot afford - 6{]19

~ay 4, 1977 (afternoon) Tape ~o. 2152 NH - 2 ~m.. CMTN;I~G: to pay :nore.!vithcut being impoverished. Mr. Speaker, I have a suggestion to make regarding the answer or regarding something that this House could do, the government could do in order to help the peoole properly defend it or properly represent it in the future, Pot only with this petition but other petitions that they send. Number one is the ordinary person in the street he has not got access to the statistics or the cost. If he goes into a hearing and they have the expertise of the companies concerned; they do not understand the figures.

They have not got the figures. They have not got the time to get them. to put up the'ir arguments so a company can easily win over the people. I mean what are the people supposed to know about the costs involved with that com?any, the cost of their dams or their wires or their lines or ~vhat not. So I have a suggestion I am going to make. I think it is a good one, Mr. Speaker, not only for this petition but others .. that will come and other matters that rise up where there are any boards set up to consider cost to the people, Mr. Speaker, I am going to suggest that the government would form another board. ~fr.

Speaker, there are so many boards I imagine somebody will say, What, another board . - AN HON. MEMBER: 11,000. MR. CANNING: - will probably be the first argument. Well, Mr. Speaker, I am going to suggest now that a board comprised of people, people independent of political affiliation, an independent . 6G:20

~~av 4, 1977 Tape 2153 L;<-1. ' ':?- . C.<\?R!I:'·!G: 1~0?.-rti be set uo con-prise~ of peep J e, I say, Hho a r .e not / involvecl ~7 i th the Fouse or w::!.th a political part? or not involvec, I mean~aoart f..,."'re the Governrr.ent tmder no control of the rovern.rrtent. simply an independent hoard. vr. Speaker, I !!!at-e further suf!gestion that another Ct.rf-UI!'.ent ~·!Culd be put up, can we afford another boar~? ~·r. Speaker, I would sug~est t1-.a t we could choose tro.e meT!"bers. Fe have a ~reat numb.:r, at least a .:oup:!.c cf t!-.ousand rJf overload of civil servants with this government now. ~rr.

Speaker, I would su~gest that they could be picked fro~ there. They perhaps the, out of the 27 people t1:1e Pre'!"ier has around hiT!' to aclvise hj!"' and to !'lelo him out and lv!'-.at not, perhaps he could ' . spare one. ,~~o. nd · :I am positivelY:- sure that e"Tery !"!inister in the ~overnment can 51"are one, SOl!!e assistant to the assistants, to form a board who could ~o into the figures anr cost anc !".~ly argue a~ainst any companies ~.mo are J coking fer raises trying . / to take more out of the people to see if that cost or that ~aise -.;.ras justified. ~·r.

Spea!<'er,~ve coulcl. call it ~''~at you like, ~vatchdog for the people or. people's protection consumers board or. call it fA-rhat you like. I t}. i.nk that that st-ouJ C. be done to helo those who are far off or too busy to be here ~vho cannot defend themselves. At the '!!'Oll"!en t ~-rr. Speaker, I at!T going to ask the support of this Fouse,both sicies of this House in this matter because I a~ sure that althcugh I have over 6,000 and I think possihly a couple of other petit:!.ons col"'!inr up containjn~ another 2,000. But ~"r.

SpeaY..er, ~.rhen I present this 1 think that most of ~:ewfotmcl.land and Lc?.brador could present the same petitic-n today and ~e justified in presenting it and they Hauld he .i•~stj fied in cle~af'dinp. this Eouse , ... they ~ent ns here to rer-resent them. I a~ sure they Hou.1.<1. he _-iustifiec b ~e'!T'anc':i.n~ both sides of this Vouse take this very seriousl y and give it their support. ~r. Soea~er, I as~ t~at the petition ~e p laced nn the Ta~le nf the t:louse a!'.~. _presented i.t to the cepart~ent concernec'l.

~-'av 4, 19 77 Ta.pe 2153 LB-2. Some other ron. ~errbers aTe speaking on the sa~e petition. }"R.NEARY: I •·!ill yieJd the f1oor to I!!Y colleague then. ~.W.CA'P.TEE-: ~ 6 r Sreat.-er, I support the petit"ion presented ~y I"'!Y frjen~ and colleague. I support it Yr. Sneaker, for t":·!O reasons, one that I agree -v!it}1 it and secondly that it also co:ntains the names of 093 people fr~ the District of St, ~Kary,s-the Capes. These people - AN .RON .~"'E'~E~: ( inaudible) MP .• W,CARTEP: Beg Your Pardon. AN • !ION • i'"'E}ffiEP.: From· your area?

PP.W.CAP.Tl'.:R: No, similar it is the snme petition really concerned about the electricity costs in their district. ~ .S}f~~LWOOD: Do you have any? ~ • I.J'. C..:\.PTE!:'.: I have some here, yes. ¥.r. Speaker, this is a very very real prohlem to certain! parts of my district as is evidenced by t~e fact that so many peopJ .e took the trouble and ~he effoT.t to sign that petition. Before I go any further I "to.Tould like to cn~.l"ncl. !;he person ~vho initiated the petition,. ~ 6rs. Fagan from the ~.rrs. Fagan is the hostess on the very popular open line shor.r on I thj..nk it is CHCN ·in !'Ka rys to~vn .

I think she is to be cq~encled for her community spirit and the fact that she has managed to arouse so much interest in that area and in the surrounding distrjcts with respect to the cost of electricity. I am sure the Fouse is a~vare that my frier:d and colleague the Yinister of :--rines s, Ener~y will be takin?, the necessary action during: the present session, ~.mereby the NeHfoundland HydrCI will be reauired to justify the increase app]ied for by that corooration to the govern!!!ents' rublic ITtilities Board.

This I think is an excellent !!love and certainly one I have been advocating anc in favour of for quite some ti~e. 6D22

"~ay 4, 1977. Tape 2154 PJI - 1 :~R. T,!. cARTER: ~rr. Speaker, the cost of electricity, like I said, is becoming a very real ~roblem in that a large nu~her of peoole, includin~ yours trulv, have built ho1:1es and provided electric heat on the promise that it ~vould be pro'l)abl •r cheaoer and more effective than other methods of hot!".e heating, only no~-1 -to find that the cost of nroviding the electricity to heat their homes ~as imposed a severe burden on the people who have built and heated their homes in that ~ay. So certainly, Mr. Speaker, I support the petition.

I commend rny constituents again for taking the ti~e and effort to become involved in the petition. And I again commend the author of the petition and I support it wholeheartedly. Sm-f.E HON .~ERS: Hear, hear! !·:'R. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the hen. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir C·!r. Simmons), I ~vill draw to the attention of hon. members the presence in the Chamber of some delegates frot11 the t~m. council of ~lovertmm, Councillor Feltham and Councillor Hounsell and also the to•·m clerk, "Mr. Sparkes. I know hon. members will join me in welcoming these gentlemen to the Rouse of Assembly.

SOH'E HO~l. ~1E~ERS : Hear, hear! ~1R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bav d'Espoir. ~~- R. SI~~ONS: Mr. Spea1-:er, I too have a couple of :>etitions bearing on the same subject, the subject ~.;hich >.Jas introduced by mv colleague from Burin-Placentia T.Jest(~·fr. Canning) an-i suoported by mv friend, the ~!inister of Fisheries, the member for St. Mary's-The Capes(Hr. r.r. Carter). The gentleman from Burin-Placentia \.Jest has mentioned that he ~as more than 6,000 names affixed to the petition which he has tabled here today.

And I have just reard from the ~inister of Fisheries that he has just shy of 1,000, 993. I am pleased to present on behalf of mv constituents in the coT!!U!Unities of ~.amea, Francois and Burgee; three of the thirteen communities in my district, all of ~vhich ar~ sufferi!!g under the adverse ~ffects of hi2h electricity rates, on their behalf 6023

)fay lJ., 1977. Tape 2154 ttE - 2 ·~. S E~·'O!'TS : I am pleased to present Detitions totalling 1,831. There are some petitions yet to be forthcoming. Trey 'have been recei,red by the sponsers of this petition, Radio Station CHDl in ~!arystown and they will be forthcoming and I shall be happy to table them at that time. You knm..r, ~·!r. Speaker, it was such a nice day yesterday. 111e had the Minister of Trans~ortation not only absent from the nOllSe but down in lllJ district. And in ~.ro {vays 'he ,.,as doing us a favour, doing: us a real favour. But he is here today MR.. HOftGAN: Inaudible. HR.

SU~~ONS: That is right. In two ways he was doin? us a favour. But he is here today ~vhich means t\vo things. One, he is not in my district and two, he is here. And so ~.-e ~vill tolerate him. I prefer to tolerate "tim in soTI"_e silence actual! v. ~fr. Spea.k:er, my fi'C'st Herds should be ~.;ords of congratulations to the radio station as the ''inister of :!?isheries so ivell nointed out. It ~11as the station and~ in particular, Hrs.

Fagan, the hostess of the Open Line or the Action Line ahmv in Harystovm that ~-ras responsible for fi ving those people, those thousands of people, I think 10,000 or 11,000 or 12,000 altogether, ~·7hen ive have heard from the various members, several thousands of people the opportunity to once a~ain voice their concern about a matter that affects t;eir pocketbooks. P...nd I ~11ant ~.n. thout reservation to con­ ~ratulate Hrs. Fagan and the station. .:l..nd I am pleased to see that ~ - 1 rs.

Fa~an together with her husband is in the gallery today and I think it is very ~ppropriate she should be here for this occasion. Eear, hear! ~rR. S I~f}t~~TS : ~!r. Speaker, on be!1alf of the petitioners. in particular those in my o~m district, I must once again raise the ouestion, ' '~·!hen, ~.;hen, ~hen in the nane o E hum.imity ~vill the government give heed?" ~·-! e have presented petitions Hit!:'t tens of thousands of names here in t;e last vear or so on t:Cis ver.y subject. Indeed as I look over the names on these netitions ' _ 6G24

1ay 4, 1977. Tape 2154 !'.H - 3 !R. SP.-~ · ~O . ! S: ~vhich I have before me I see names that O:tTere on the earlier petitions as ~-rell. So for man~ peo!'le this is the second time round they have had to bring this ma_tter to the direct attention of the House of Assembly. And that is only because there TJaS no action on their first petition. ~~d I hope .. 6G25 ·'

May·4, 1977 Tape no. 2155 Page 1 - ms Mr • Simmons . now there will be some action. We are told, and we will be told again I am sure before the day is out that we have to pay our way when it comes to electricity . I do not believe any Newfoundlander, any person in this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador object to paying his way in terms of elect~icity. W~~t he does object to is paying the $75,000 salaries of fellows like Mr. Groom, of paying for the cost of that useless jet that we keep supporting, and doing it all, Mr. Speaker, in the name of paying our way in terms of electricity costs.

That is the farce about it, Mr. Speaker, and that is one of the reasons whv we are in such a bind on this matter of electricity rates. Because a lot of things, Mr. Speaker, too many things, are getting written off, written off in the name of cost of electricity, troings which have nothing to do directly at all with the cost of electricity. And I object to it as a taxpayer, and as a person who has to pay those bills, too.

And I believe I speak from the heart for every petitioner whose name appears on these petitions which I am very happy and very proud to present, I support whole-heartedly, and I would request that they be placed_on the table and referred to the appropriate department of government. MR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the hon. member for Placentia, I would also draw to hon. members' attention the presence in the gallery of Mr. Ron Fagan who is the President of the Confederation of Mayors and Municipalities of the Province. And I know hon. members join me in welcoming him also. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! ~m.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Placentia. HR. PATTERSON: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition so ably presented by my friend and colleague, the member for Burin - Placentia \vest (Mr. Canning) . I, too, have a petition here, and it is part of the petition of over 15,000 names ~vhich originated r..;ith . 6u2s

May 4, 19 77 Tape no. 2155 Page 2 - ms Mr. Patterson. Mrs. Tina Fagan at radio station CHCM, and that petition includes the district of Placentia. As the member for Placentia, I support this petition because as one who has lived all his life in the communities in my district, I know the history and perhaps the people a lot better than any other m'i!!lllber of this House. I am, as the member for the area, very aware of the problems brought· about by the high cost of living, and the increase in the price of clothing and other necessities of life. }~y I say, Mr.

Speaker, that as the member for the area, and as a member of the caucus,! have fought constantly and will continue to fight to see that any proposed increases applied for by Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro will not be approved unless they are approved by the Public Utilities Board. My colleague the Minister of Mines and Energy has already indicated to me that he will take steps to bring about the appearance of the board before the Public Utilities Board, before further increases are approved. So, Mr.

Speaker, as one who has been in most of the homes, if not all in the district, and who knows most of the residents of the area by their first names, no one can tell me about the economic conditions that face the people and the area. and · t~t it is for this reason that I continually fought and will go on in this manner objecting to any increase in. electrical rates or any other increases that might seriously affect the citizens that I represent. Therefore, Mr.

Speaker, I can say that I endorse and support the prayer of this petition and,in fact,I honestly believe that it - because of the efforts of the people such as myself and the other members who have supported this petition that further increases in electrical rates by Newfoundland Hydro ~vill not be approved ~Jithou t public hearings. I have discussed this time and time again with my colleague, the ~inister of :1ines and Energy who indicates to this House .that ·this . will be done. . 6G27 /

May 4, 1977 Tape no. 2155 Page 3 - IUS Hr. Patrerson. In closing, Mr. Speaker, I again assure the residents of my supp.ort of· this p~t, ition, and I now lay this petition on th.e table of the House a~ ask that it be referred to the department to wbi.cll it 'telat~s. SOl£ RON. M'EMJ$5: Bear, hear! _ 6C28

May 4, 1977 Tape 2156(Afternoon) JN- 1 ~!R. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I would like to stand to support the petition presented by the hon. member objecting to the escalating cost in ~lectricity to the consumers of electricity in this Province. If the escalating costs continue the way they nave been in the last year-and-a-half I really do not know how the ordinary people of this Province are going to be able to cope with this financial burden.

It is absolutely fantastic, these escalating costs and I certainly want to support the petitions that have been presented and the ones~! understand that there are others to be presented and I do hope that the government will move quickly with its legislation to place the Newfoundland Hydro under the ~ublic Utilities Board so ~~at the board will control and scrutinize the Newfoundland Hydro so that they will have to justify any raises in electricity to Ne~~foundland Light and Power which consequentlY, of course,results in increases to the consumer.

I think the Utilities Board proved its usefullness recently when they turned down an increase by the Newfoundland Light and Power. Granted it is only a temporary thing but I believe they made the right decision to hold off on this increase pending on the government's decision to place the Newfoundland Hydro under the Public Utilities Board. And the sooner this is done the better for the consumers of electricity in this Province. I just simply want to say, Mr. Speaker, that I give these petitions my wholehearted support. MR..

SPEAKER: The hen. member for Conception Bay South and after him I recognize the han. member for Bay of Islands. ~!R. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, in rising I hope I am pe~itted to endorse the petition as presented by my hon. friend from Placentia and all other han. members who may have presented this joint petition in reference to hydro rates in the area. People are really uptight, Hr. Speaker, as is evidenced by the presentation of this petition and by a series of things;because of the fact that the hydro rates are 6u29

:.V1ay 4, 1977 Tape _2156 (luternoon) MR. LUSH: just one of the s tra~vs to break the ccmel 's back. Every day when one turns on the radio, picks up a newspaper you have the further increases in the cost of living on- food and clothing and shelter and transportation and any number of things. So people are being cons~stently hammered away at;their few me~ger savings if they have any at all)and they do not seem to know where to- turn.

Now it is difficult: for them to- communicate with a big · corporation so they find that there should be some hope in dealing with something that is run by the government or any agency or an arm of government and here we come to Newfoundland Hydro. .• Now, Hr. Speaker, it is pretty difficult to justify some of these things when you have members standL•g up talking about $75,000 salaries to head up that board, possibly with a house and transportation thrown in, all expenses paid. I mean that is not bad living, not bad.

And if you are flying around in a private jet, I mean how much does that cost a year and how much would that save the people down on the coast? Now we have JH - 2 to face up to these things and it is no good merely scorning at it and saying it does not amount to nothing and all the rest. The people are not prepared to accept that anymore. Now we have to look at Newfoundland Hydro. The Public Utilities Board,as the han. the Premier has said,and as I recall the han. Minister of ~fines and Energy has already indicated, I believe, that the ~ewfoundland Hydro will go before the Public Utilities Commission.

Well now the sooner the better. But there is something else. The Newfoundland Light and Power has an involvement with a group called Montreal Engineering. Hontreal Engineering sit in on the board of the Newfoundland Light and Power and if you check far enough you will find that aontreal Engineering is involved ~vi th a company, I just forget the name of it at the moment, who does work for :1ewfoundland Hydro. NR. RIDEOUT: Shawmont. ~1R. ~TOLA:.'l : Shawmon t. ~row unless we really dig in to the Ne~vfoundland 6D30

~ tay 4, 1977 Tape 2156(Afternoon) MR. NOLA.~: Lig):lt and l?ow~;r. iiP.d look. at the corporate set up, the intermingling, the bookkeeping and the whole works we are never going to have the truth. MR. NEARY: Rear, hear! 1M - 3 MR. NOLAN: Never. So let us stop conning ourselves on that. There is a very definite and sometimes suspicious involvement between Montreal En.gineering on· the one h.and and' the Newfoundland Light and Power on the o-ther and. unless you let it all hang out and get it out into the open this petition is going to solve nothing at all.

Apart from what I have s.aid,and that is as has been indicated by the Minister of ?-lines and Enet"'gy and the P-remier, of course) we will certainly hopefully have Newfoundland Hydro appear before the Pub~ic Utiltties Commission 6031.

May 4, 1977 (afternoon) Tape No. 2157 ~"M - 1 ~-!R. NO LA.."' : and to give an account of themselves which they have not been doing up to not-1, particularly since they are now talking about making profits, and that is what they are saying right now that they hope to make a profit this year. ~ow who is going to furnish the profit it if is not ~7e the consumers. So in closing, Mr. Speaker, I would certainly like to commend Mrs. Fagan and all those who took the time to circulate the petition and a petition that is well worth-while. Now it is up to us to prove to Mrs.

Fagan and all her listeners on the o~en-line show and all those who circulated it and all those who went to the trouble to sign it that it is not a useless gimmick bringing the.se things in here to the House of Assembly, that they do get a proper hearing and not only that that those me111bers here on either side are quite prepared and are knowledgeable of the fact that people are suffering today, r.eally this is not an exaggeration, suffering because of the enormous increases in the cost of living.

See the Newfoundland Light and Power or Hydro ~11hen they bring in t!'l.e increases, it is not just to the consumer because the consumer pays again ~~hen the businesses that are affected when their power goes up they pass it on to the consumer as well. So it is pyramiding all the time and there is only one source of funds and that is. the man or the woman and their children who live in the communities that are so ably represented by my friend on my left · and the Minister of Fisheries and my friend from Placentia and so on. So I commend Mrs.

Fagan and all those who were involved in the petition and can assure them of our complete, whole-hearted and most sincere support. ~tR • SPEAKER : The hen. member for Bay of Islands, then I will reco~nize the hen. members for LaPoile and Fortune - He~itage. ~. HOODROH': Mr. Speaker, I would like to add my words of support to the three petitions. It is going to be very difficult 6G32

:-fay 4, 1977 Tape No. 2157 MR. WOODRm.J: not to be repetitious in what I have to say but I will try to avoid repetition as much as possible. Now first of all, Mr. Speaker, I would like to say that this is a very serious matter, very, very serious and anybody who plays politics with it he deserves to be electrocuted. We are dealing with the lives of people, ~r. Speaker,- and that is something we cannot be political aboct, we have to s~eak from our heart on this thing. Now, ~~. Speaker, in the smaller areas of our Province many peo~le have built homes and they have installed electric heat in them.

In fact they did this with the promise or the impression that they would get cheaper electricity. But they find that in many cases the amounts are not only doubled but trebled and the like. Speaking for my own district, about ninety per cent of the new homes huilt alon~ both sides of the Bay of Islands have electric heat. And people,in fact;over the past year or so are wondering where they are going to turn and they are also putting wood and oil furnaces in their homes, especially wood furnaces. So, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to see every member of the House support this petition that I feel in their hearts they will support it but it is impossible logically for every member to speak about it. I would also like to congratulate Mrs. Fagan and all others who took

part in getting these petitions out. I have been involved in my lifetime many times with petitions and the like and I realize that it takes an effort on the part of somebody to get these petitions,as it were,off the road. I feel sure and I am confident that the han. Minister of Mines and Energy certainly has a heart for ~ewfoundland, he loves peoole, I am sure that he will do his utmost to see that 6D33

May 4, 1977 Taoe No. 2157 NM- 3 ~. WOODROW: the peo1:1l~ are given just and fair treatment tmen he has a~ opportunity to speak about it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, ~ilL SPEAKER: !he hon. xnember for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. J. ~-7INSOR: ~r. Speake ·r, I as well rise to support my colleagues who have already pl;'esented petitions on this same subject. I have to p:-esent petitions on beh:l.lf of 3o::;J, H:-eck Cove and Coombs Cove. _ 6D34

May 4, 1977 Tape no. 2158 Page 1 - ms !-tr. J. 'iUnsor. Boxey,122 persons; Wreck Cove, 100; Coomb's Cove, 66. Now these are three and only three of some twenty-three communities. And I think the mails will probably produce in the very near future petitions from the other twenty communities in my district. In supporting this petition -well first I should read the prayer of -the petition that I have. I did net hear. the hon. member for Burin- Placentia West's. ~did not hear his prayer· as there was a bit of noise going on in the House.

The prayer reads: 'We the undersigned protest the present high ' cost of electricity and are concerned ~ith the possibility of placing one or more annual rate increases. We feel that there is a very real possibility that the cost of electricity may reach an uniust. and unrealistic high point within the near future. We, therefore, ask that you, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador do take a realistic look at this situation and take whatever action is necessary for the protection of the people of this Province.

I am very pleased to see members from the other side of the House presenting petitions on this as well which indicates that they are certainly sympathetic with the prayer of the petition. My colleagues on both sides have already pointed out that this massive petition has been sparked through the good offices of Mrs. Fagan and her action line of CHCM, which we are thoroughly familiar with. It is also backed up by the co-operative effort of one-third of Newfoundland, the South Coast districts, the action coasts. And these are the combined efforts of Placentia Rast, St.

Mary's - The Capes, Burin -Placentia West, Fortune, Hermitage, Burgee -Bay d'Espoir, Grand Baru~ and LaPoile. The hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has not presented his petition yet but that is coming I presume. These people are looking at a possible twenty-five per cent increase over the next few months, possibly by the end of the year. _ 6G35

Hay 4, 1977 Tape no. 2l:i8 Page 2 - ms !-!R. J. WINSOR: Three years a~o it uP-s $60 a month, then $90, then $140, add another t~venty-five per cent on that $140, and you have it up to $175 a month for your light bill. Now we could say that the people were led down the garden path by ads proposing that they insinulate their houses and install heating,~ .and I k:1ow in ID.Y home t:own, amazingly enough over half the homes are totally electric, and we started off with disel power, diesel generated - MR. ROBERTS : MR.. J. W'INSOR: hard to believe. Was this in Gaultois? Yes, in Gaultois believe it or not. It is ~.

SMALLWOOD: Now or - MR. J. WINSOR: Now. And, you know, that has been so for several years. We started off with diesel genErated power, and then, of course, we have an undersea line installed across the bay which is working quite successfully. It has never given any trouble whatever. MR. ROBE!.TS: Touch wood. MR.. SMALLWOOD: That is hydro power now, is it? MR. J. WINSOR: Yes, touch wood. My colleague, the leader says, Touch wood.

The only problem we have is with salt water on the open lines on a very exposed coast, and then we get a knockout, And I have personally gone through three days of ten to twelve below zero without power and, therefore, no heat. Burn birch junks and whatever. Coleman stoves. But the power is welcome, and it is certainly a wonderful adjunct to the well-being of our people on the coast.

But they should not have to suffer for mismanagement in a way, an overloaded, r:op-heavy corporation. \fuen the administration of a business, the cost of it exceeds the production somebody should be looking after balance sheets and doing some cutting. Our people cannot carry this extra burden. It is the duty of government to find a way 1:0 put a freeze 6G36

May 4, 1977 Tape no. 2158 Page 3 - ms Mr • J. Winsor. on further escalation. The consumer ha.s become thoroughly frustrated. The mcn;ale of the people is suffering extremely, not only from powe.r but from other things. And the c:onsumer pays for everything. I, th~e.fcre- , ask in supp ,orting this p-etiti-on, I as.k that this be placed on the table of the House and refen-ed to th.e department to which it relates. SOME RON. MID(BERS : Hear, hear ! / 6037

}~y 4, 197i (afternoon) Tape No. 2159 N."f - 1 ~. SPEAKER: The hon. member for ~Nillingate. ~. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, it goes without saying that I share the concern of the hon. memb.ers who have presented these petitions and that I share the deep concern of the . people -what was it, 15,000 of our fellow Newfoundlanders who have signed these petitions. I share their concern. MR.. NEARY: Hear! Hear! MR.

SMALLWOOD: I agree with those who have expr!!ssed WC'rds of c:on~atulation to the lady who organized the distribution of the petition which I understand she did through her enormously popular radio ~rogrmmme, emanating from Marystown 7 is it? MR. NEARY: I think you are going to be on on Friday. ~- SMALLWOOD: I am going to be on that line on Friday T'torning so· I had better be careful what I say. Nevertheless I am not going to pull my punches and I am not going to dissimulate ·, I am going to express the truth as I see it.

It is appalling for the consumers of this electricity up there, nothing short of appalling to see prices rise as they do for electricity and for lots of other things as well. It is appalling for anybody anywhere in the Province to see prices of almost everything rise as they are rising. But, Sir, I have to ask myself candidly and honestly, I have to ask myself the question - Are the Hydro Commission- what is the name now?-Newfoundland Hydro. ~- NEARY: Newfou1idland Hydro Corporation. MR. ~~LWOOD: Hydro Newfoundland is it? }IR. mARY: Corporation. MR. S~U100D: Newfoundland Hydro Corporation, are they overcharging?

Are they out to make a profit? Well is it any more than a nominal profit? ~. PECKFORD: They are not out to make a profit. ~1R. S~LLI-TOOD : They are. ~. PECKFORD: They are not. . - 6038

May 4, 1977 (afternoon) Tape No, 2159 NM- 2 ~. SMALLWOOD: They are .not,_ -They are a public service ~.;ho are serving the people. ~1R • PECKFORD : ~fR. SMALUJ'OOD: ~fR. PECKFORD: HR. S}f.ALLWOOD : That is right. And I suppose either they have to break even And they are not breaking even.

Either they have to break even by charging enough to the consumers to get · enough revenue to break even or if the consumers as consumers do not pay enough to enable them to break even then the consumers not as consumers but as taxpayers- remember that every consumer of electricity is a taxp-ayer and in one capacity or the other they got to contribute to the Hydro Commission to make them meet~pay their bills. Now what I do not understand is what is this escalation in the costs of producing power?

If someone says it is the escalating cost of crude oil that is brought into the Province from the oil producing countries and burned to produce electricit~ and the cost of the crude oil in the last two years has gone up from $1.25 a barrel to $14,00 a barrel, the plants that are burning up that oil to produce electricity, naturally their cost of production has gone sky high, But to that my hen. friend from his constituency may very well say> and a lot of the people on the Southwest Coast m;ly say,"But we are not consuming electricity that is produced by burning eX?ensive oil 1 weare consuming electricity that is produced in Bay d 'Espoir by falling water., and there is virtually no expense to that once you have installed the productive capacity.

Afterwards there is virtually no expense." But, Sir, in reply to that surely to God we all have to recognize that the electricity that is produced by burning expensive oil and the electricity that is produced by falling water is all merged, it is merged in a grid that is owned by Hydro Newfoundland and they might indeed charge a very low orice for those 1-1ho consume the hydro power and a high price for those who consume the oil fire<! power and have _ 6C39

~ray 4, 1977 Ta-pe 2160 13-1. ~ "? • S~ 'ALL POOD : ti•!O differel" .t rates, one very low anC. one very hi~h, that might he done 1:-ut '\.!Ould it 1:-e fafr? Hould it be fair? Is it not more fair to average it out and char?,e a bit more than ~•auld nortr'ally be the case in one part and a bit less than ,.,..rould normally be the case in another by averaging it out. It so happens that I am the one who initiated the great power develop~ent in Bay d 'Espoir. It so hap!)ens that I am tte one \•rho initiated the prograini!!e of rural elect-:--i.fication :i.n ~;e .. ,rfoundland.

Hhen •.ve brought in rural electrification we subs7dized it very he~vily, ::.ecause I!'OSt of it at that time "to7as, tr..e same as my han. colleague .• savs, it was diesel pow~r. All around tl'-is isJ.ar..d ~·Te hac ciesel plants, ue !'!lUSt h~ve had a couple of hundred of them producing electricity by burni...;,g oil'. The Governn:ent subsidized that pmver to the a~ount of hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. ~~ .PECKFOP.D: Sll. 8 million in this coMing fiscal year. ~·!e are subsidizing rural electricity.

That :! s rural as distinct from the other the more convent:!.onal form. ~Tor-7 , ,,>e have to ask ourselves this ouest ion. j as 1egislators an~of course 7 the government even !'!ore have to · P..sk themsebres the ouestion, if we are subsidizing rural electricity t.;ill -,;.re also subsidize hydro electricity and the conventional norrr1al sale of electricity throughout the province? If the government subsir-lize it, it has to find the !!'oney to do it. ~·!here r.rill it get the money? By taxing the ?eople. So that the consuner pays as a consumer in high prices or he gets lm..r prices and pays as a taxpayer.

T~ook., ~r. Speaker, ~-:e T"ust, surely to God r.-7e t!'USt. look e~.t these facts. He can sympathize •,Jith the 15,000 1vho signee th_at petition. Fe can sym~athize ~v-ith then. Fe can have boundless respect and adiriration for the lacly wl,o or~anjzed the petition, [- ut in do in~ both ~urelv to Gael T,Te T!'.USt as level-hearlecl ~re~doundlance rs and legislators He must look. at the actual ::~ ct anti try to find som.e ~inc of a solution if that is possible to t1.o. It is the burden 6u4o

~'ay 4, 1077 '!'cone 2160 LS-2. ' . .-u. S"ALU.!00D: of the _o;:r.overrrr:,_ent. The Opposition ha,re '1.0t got to find the solution, it is the _iob of the govern!'!ent to fi:nc-1 it jf there is one to find. 0n that I have ~~sterious doubts. general '!!'ana~er, the 1,os!'l of Hydro Co1'1r'!ission is ~ettin~ ~.TJ:-.at, S70,000 or ~80,000 a year .

This is referred to, oka,rl let }!im Hork for a dollar a year, put do'l'm. a lot of the hir:h paiCl !"1en to a dollar a year and what ·difference ~vill that ~ke in the p!'ice cf electricity? ~o a~~y with the jet, the expensive jet? l"'lose down the office in ~·ontreal and cut doT.•'!\ the O"'Ter~ead of that Hydro Commission and wrat difference will it in fact, in fact -r..rhat difference will it make in the bill that is sent out for each kilowatt hour of electricity consumed~ Maybe i am not being very helpful.

But I am· tryin~ to be honest, I a~ trying to be realistic. ~~-· SPFJ....KE~.: Ron. !'!e!!!ber for Ee.gle "'iver. ~'1::1. ST'~'ACFAN: ~r. Speaker, I have talkeC' about this sub _i ect a coupJe of ti'!!'es before. The petition is from the Soutl-· roast of this province and I represent the Labrac'lor roast •·rhich gets all of its electricity from oil-fired diesel generators., in --a- 'situation •mere ~·~e a.re subsidized onlv at the rate of 500 kilmvatt::: ac.d above that ~·e pay an escalatin~ rate-~s 'tve use more e1ectricity ~.,.e have to pay •li'OT.'e. substantially more.

The businesses / for ~Sti;lnce~ l'!'Ore rusinesses have a mul tj_nlica tion fe.ctor of 9. SI!!all families in the T.vinter use a considerable at!'_ount of electricity 75 :rore than the 500 kilOlolatt subsiclized figure. ~~ • ROBERTS : 51"0 k.ilm·rat ts is not even norli'.all y more than a T •1•. set or - 1- ~-iR.

STPACE,.~N: No, so noo;.r ~-re are faced on the coa.st., anc'l ~re~·rfounC.J anc'l Fydro a~e faced with neo-ple v!ho are une"!p1 oyed, people •··"'n are on ~·relfare, -perrple ~.:rho now Olve Newfoundland Hydro from !?bUU to ~ DUU ' I I ~.('no,..r peoule -.:;.:ho oPe ~e~·rfoundl<'!nd I abrader ~yr1ro ~ 1500. •rv auestion tren in supportinP' anything in the range fron - 6041.

~1ay 4, 1977 Tape 216l(Afternoon) this petition is ~vhat is the hydro corr.pany going to do? Are they going to take the people to court? Can they cut off their electricity during the summer months? They certainly cannot during winter. Row are they going to come to terns with the fact that there are people who are unemployed, people on welfare, people who cannot afford these rates and cannot affcrd to pay these bills? How are they going to come to terms with them?

And what is going to happen is that if they do not come to terms then more and more of the people in the communities will refuse to pay their bills because many of them cannot face such high electricity costs. Another point raised in the petition which I would like to bri.ng up is the Power Consumers Association th;:a t: the member for Placentia West v1as talking about.

On this I ~vould like to say that ~Te~vfoundland and Labrador Hydro should have public hearings before there is any increase in hydro costs but I am also concerned that it comes underneath the Public Utilities Board or if anything does come under the Public Utilities Board normal people, ordinary people cannot go in front of the board and successfuliy present their point of view. I support the Public Utilities Board, the set up of it. I understand its limitations but it should be less technical. It should be less rigid.

It should accomodate ordinary people, not lawyers, not people who have money behind them to present their cases. It should allow ordinary people to come in and give evidence on the situations concerning them without being so structured and so rigid. I saw many people, many people being frightened away. HR. SMALLHOOD: r..;rould the hen. gentleman not say that it ~vould be even more important to bring in chartered accountants;you knmv, to get the actual d0llars and cents facts of the case? ~·.!R. S TRACF.b'l' : Absolutely.

I have seen this happen at a couple JM- 1 of hearings that there are expert ~.;itnesses called but unfortunately / / 6-042

Hay 4, 1977 Tape 2161 (Afternoon) MR. STRACIAN: . many people \vho ~•ant to present their point of vit!w cannot travel to St. John's especially from the South Coast of N~Nfoundland or from the Labrador Coast for instance; They cannot travel in and present their point of view and many people have no access to the Public Utilities Board. And I think it is about time that the whole Public Utilities Board structure should be changed to allow people, ordinary people, not the expert witnesses, some imput into control over electricity rates and hydro rates. MR. NEARY: Rear, hear! MR.

STRACHAN: And I think that this should be done quickly. I have seen very frustrated people, very, very frustrated people who cannot have any tmput into the cost of living or in increases which affect them. So there are two points I would like to make here in supporting the petition. First of all the high rates of electricity and what is Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro going to do with people who owe large sums of money up to $1500 and will continue to owe these large sums of money? }!any people are unemployed, many people are o~ welfare and ~onot pay these sums of money, cannot pay their bills.

Secondly the Public Utilities Board then should be restructured and broadened and less rigid so that ordinary people can have some kind of imput. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, I th.ink a great number of members have spoken on this and they have made most of the points which in my JH - 2 view ought to be made.

I think it has been an excellent debate, I suppose:"' we are not allowed to call it a debate, an excellent discussion in support of the petition and I would congratulate the members who have taken part and particularly my friend from Burin-Placentia West tvho presented the o-riginal petition. ~1R. NEARY: :!R. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! I ':-Jould also like to say a word of appreciation and commendation to ~trs. Fagan the host of the open line sho~.; on CHG1 6.043

May 4, 1977 Tape 2161 (Afternoon) }ffi:. ROBERTS: Radio. That particular radio network, the VOO! network has initiated a· number of these petitions. We had a very large one last year from the Clarenville area with respect to a hospital. This one I think is the largest one they have ever put togethe -r and I think that is very much to the credit of all who have been invol~ed in it. Mr.

Speaker, the points which have been made by previous speakers, I think~ are valid and I think that among the spe-akers, given the limitations of the five minutes which were allowed under the rul.es:, the case has been . ma.d.e effectively and with a considerable degree of force and a considerable degree of .precision and accuracy. As I see · it the situation is this, o.ii. the one hand the cost of electricity is .going up rapidly. I would ventu-re to say it has just about doubled in the la$t few yeat:s in this Province .after many, many years ~.ffien it remained 6D44 .rn - 3

~~ay L~ , 19 7 7 • Tape 2162 "~. ROBERTS : stable or near enough to stable. It is gain~ un raoidlv. F.lectricitv is not a luxury_, it is a necessitv, and for those ~rho heat their homes it is an absolute necessity and for everybody else in this Province, whether he heats his home ~nth electricity or ~Yith some other source of heatJ electricity is an absolute necessity in their lifestyle. To live without electricity ·tvould be unthinkable and completely unacceptable in this day and age. So ~ve must use the commodity and by its very nature it is supplied by monopolies. {.Je must use the monoooly.

We must ~ay the ~rice the monopoly charge. ' That is unavoidable. And equally it is unavoidable that the monopoly, in this case Light and Power and Hetvfoundland and Labrador Hydro, must increase their prices from time to time particularly r.men 1ve are in the situation '"e are in todav in this Province tvhereby all our incremental oower is thermal generated, it comes fror thermal fuels, ~ainly oil. And we all know what is ?:oing to hanpen and is hao-pening: and has ha1)oened to the price of oil. ::-Tow, Sir, so ~ve must accept that. I do not find it very palatable. I heat mv ~orne electrically.

And my electricity bills particular in th~~inter months are staggeringly hig~. ~~d there is no real way to keep them down. I go around turning out the li~hts and suggesting to the children and sometimes gently and someti~es - ~-~. SHALL WOOD : (Inaudible.) LBJ? HR. ROBERTS: Right. - sometimes less gently that they should keep the heat down a little belotv what they consider to be a tolerable thinS?. But we have to pay the bills. ~ole all have to. Now, Sir, - I·IR. :·TOLAN : \·le also pay sales tax. HR. ROBERTS: Yes, my friend from Conception Bav South C1r. ~Tolan) points out the sales tax is on it.

It is a very unfair tax because it is the only source of heat anywhere in this Province that no~.r pays a sales tax. And everv~ody T.vho is paying for electric heat is naving, I C,elieve, an unfair share of the load. But, : -~r. Speaker, to come back _ 6D45

~·fa,, 4, 19 77. Tape 2162 RH - 2 ~IR. ROBERTS : a~.;ray from the sales tax point for a moment, the main concern that I see is that we must insure that the ?rice 'vhich r..;re pay for electricitv is the minimum that can be paid. If it is not subsidized t~ere is a orice, if it is not subsidized bv the government then the price must be a fair and a genuine nrice.

But let us make sure it is a fair and a ~enuine price. \Je on this side have been saying for many years no~·T t>-TO thi!'lgs: First of all that the Hydro,which after all is a major comnonent of the cost, the cost by Hydro I mean 'vith a ca?ital 'H', the Fvdro operation, that that operation must come under the Public Utilities Board. Hell the govetnment have at long last accepted our vier.,;J and I understand legislation to that effect will be brought in at this session. And I have no doubt it will be adopted with the sup~ort of members on all sides. He also feel very strongly, my friend from Eagle River (~·fr.

Strachan) touched on it and a number of other of my friends did, that He must, the government must act to make the Public Vtilities regulato~v process a meaningful one. As it nm-r stands it is verv lopsided. The hoard is fair and impartial. The board can only go on what is before them in the Hay of evidence. On one hand you have got the comnanies r.vith a vast array of eXPerts and technical advisors making their case and on the other hand you have got the Federation of :funicipalities or a fer.v, even ,individuals or a few groups with verv, very limited resources.

I think that the cost of op'Posing apnlications ought to be paid for in the same Hay as the cost of making ap'Plications, in other words, put as part of the cost of the overall service being provided. Because if Light and Power, ~1 r. Speaker, spend half a million dollars preparing a rape case, then that half a million dollars is built into their costs and it is reflected in the hills '·7hich each of us as consumers pay. So the government have come part r.vay - ~"R. $}f~<\LLFOOD: Is it correct that the public have to pay the cost of their persuading the nublic to nay more? ~~-. ROBERTS: T~at is exactly it.

And the more ryersuasive Lizh t and l?orver is and the more costly their ryersuasion is the more the hills 51:0 up. r.rell 6D4G

~ray 4, 19 77. ~ane 2162 RH - 3 liR. P.OBERTS: I ':vould lil--~ to see an adversary system. I think the Public Utilities Board is the only real way to govern it. He have to have mono-polies. The competitive system t¥ill not work. So that leaves us •vith a State, granted a State authorized monopoly and the regulatory proces ,s is the only way to insure that that monopol,y does not get out of hand. I fe~l very st.rongly - . MR.. :~OLA.'\1: .How tnany provinces have outfits like the Light and Power right now? r-m..

ROBER.'!S: There are two provinces of Canada that have T"Jrivately owned potoTer companies, here and Alberta, the richest and the poorest. MR. SMALUTOOD: t-7ell, Nova Scotia has some - 'XR:. ROBERT'S: No, no, the government of Nova Scotia bought all the - A._~ ~ON. m>!BER: Prince Edt.ra.Td Island do, do they not? / 6047

May 4, 1977 Tape no. 2163 Page 1 - ms MR. ROBERTS : No, I do not think so. I do not think so. I could be wrong. I could be wrong. I could be. But Ontario, Quebec, Manitoba, British Columbia, New Brunswick are all publicly owned, the big provinces. Mr. Speaker, I feel very strongly that the government ought to I:lak.e the Public Utilities process a meaningful one by funding the consumer groups.

The Federation of Municipalities I am told has put $50,000 into opposing the rate increases in the hearings of phones and lights in the last little while, a staggering sum of money for an organization with relatively few dollars. Those dollars, of course, in the long~ run must come out of the public, because the federation has what it gets fran its members, the municipalities 7 who in turn get their monies either from the government directly or from the taxpayers. So I would say to the minister that I think that would be money well spent. And I would make one other point if I might, Mr. Speaker.

I think it is of great importance that Hydro trim their costs, because I am one of these, like many in this House, who believes that Hydro is hopelessly extravagant. I think they are over -staffed. I think they spend money like it is going out of style. }.nd the way they spend it, it will be going out of style. I think that in an era when they are expecting the people of the Province to pay swingeing increases in electricity rates, absolutely swingeing increases, Hydro ought to cut down maybe an insignificant part of the total.

But the important thing about Caesar's wife -my friend from Twillingate would agree - is not simply that she be virtuous, but that she appear to be virtuous. And every time I go into the post office to get my mail in the morning - and I see fifteen or twenty Hydro cars there - and do you know they have a man employed who comes out each morning ancl starts those cars to make sure they are ~.tor king, and then goes back in. So I am told that. HR. :-rOLA..\1': Shame! SOHE HON. ~EP..S; Shame, shame! 6(48

May 4, 1977 MR. Rn'RF,RTS· HR. NOLAN: MR. ROBERTS : Tape no. 2163 Page 2 - ms And the vast salaries paid to the officials - The Premier of the Province - That is telling me that I am nearly out of time. If I may finish the sentence, Mr. Speaker, by leave? - the vast salaries maybe net too much, but, for example, I am told that the Light and Power Company has one chartered accountant, and Hydro has four. I am told that the Valhala of salaries in New£ oundland today is to go to work for Hydro. I do not know if these are correct.or not.

I am told them and I believe that the people who gave them to me did so believing them to be accurate. But I think it is essential, and when these hearings come up with Hydro as they will in a month or two or three, Hydro should be submitted to the rigorous examination, absolutely rigorous. And if the governm~nt have to take $200,000 or !?300,JOO and fund groups to go in and tear E:ydro's balance sheet and their expenses to bits, it would be money well-spent. SOME HON. ME11BERS ~ Hear, hear! MR..

ROBERTS: Because I would say that unless people, unless the people of this Province, can be shown that any cost increase is necessary, then we are heading for trouble, the sort of trouble - my friend from E"agle River (Mr. Strachan) talks of people refusing to pay their bills, many of my constituents are in the same problem. They have no choice but to pay these bills. The bills are hopelassly out of line. So I would think, Mr. Speaker, that this petition which my friend from Burin -Placentia West (Mr.

Canning) has brought in, this petition organized by Mrs.Fagan on the CHCM open line show has led to one of the better discussions in this House. ~.J'e spent an hour or more on it, and I think every minute of it was well-spent. And I would hope that other members would take

part in it, Sir. .It is a subject of great importance to the people of this Province. It is one, Sir, that the government must come to grips with, and I have outlined . 6049

.' Hay 4, 1977 Tape no. 2163 Page 3 - ms Mr. Roberts. what in my view are the steps they must take. I repeat, Sir, I think it would be money well-spent. I think it would be of service to the public interest, and I ehink it would be of a great service, because the matter is one of great importance. I support the petition, Sir. MR. SPE.AKER: The hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs and Eavironment and then I recognize the hon. gentleman for St. John's East. MR. MUEPHY: Mr. Speaker, this has become - even if we do not call it somewhat a£ a debate.

I am just a little bit concerned with the introduction of politics into it. But as Minister of Consumer Affairs, and as a private resident of this Province, I say that 5,000 could be 500,000 protesting the increase of rates. I get many calls -I would say in the hundreds -with regard to energy rates, and there is no justification or any help to the people of this Province to say that anybody has visited :t-!ainland Canada or the United States feel in many cases that we are perhaps all in the same box.

One time we used to talk about our light bill, but that is gone out the window now, and we are not worrying about our light bill any more as far as electricity is concerned. Everybody went and fell for the big bait that was thrown out some few years back where we had the juice running out of our ears basically.i~en the great Churchill was on the go, the electricity was going to run out of our ears, out of our noses, out of our eyes. At that time I nearly fell for it.

I live in an older house, and I was advised that the cost of heating that house by electricity would be beyond my means even at that time, eight or ten years ago. _ 6-DSO

May 4, 1977 Tape No. 2164 NM- 1 ~R. MURPHY: W.~ -ct:l~ fell into the trap of getting the electricity and no one,I think,cuts a load of wood any more. I was speaking to my han. friend from St. Georges (Mrs. Macisaac:) the other day and asked her what is the prospect down in St. Georges any more? Hhat about coal? The States are rapidly trying to get back to coal. Electricity is expensive. The people in the larger areas I understand like Corner Brook, sc·. John 1 s, so forth are paying perhaps nearly half more than they should pay because of the plan that the member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) mentioned where there-are estal:lished normal rates. But I have had many calls with reference to the cost of electricity and the cost of heating homes and we have just got to face facts, that we either pay the light bill or we put another two per cent or something on the sales tax to pay for it. So whichever pocket it comes out of it has got to be paid for. We have heard Hydro abused and all the rest.

Possibly they are living a bit high off the hog but again as one of the gentleman pointed out, their salaries would not by any means contribute enough to subsidize all our light bills or power bills as we would like them to. · So all I can say is as far as I am concerned, we have the Public Utilities Board and if some group goes to them and looks for an increase in orices. . / wellthat group has to prove that they need this.

I am told that our Chairman of the Public Utilities Board is one of the most competent indivduals. they have the staff to look at the balance sheet.And I have received many calls .I think the hon. member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Canning) said about the ordinary individual cannot cope and I appreciate that fact but in this Province today where we are about seventy per cent unionized, and pretty ~vell every union has a lawyer is it not possibleland I have told all the people in labour who asked me, is it 'not possible to get their lawyers to get together and prepare a case instead of the small groups 6051

May 4, 1977 Tape No, 2164 NM- 2 MR. MURPHY: ~etting together to prepare a case?

Instead of a small group of individuals going out and hiring a lawyer who. happens to have to pay perhaps $30,000 or $40,000 for that effort, make it an ongoing part of the lawyer's work to present their case, But again I can only say, Sir, that we sympathize greatly ~vith these people and all I can say again is all Consumer Affairs Departments say, turn your thermostat down a few more degrees and do away with the three way lights to 100 or 200 or 300 and get back to perhaps - live according to what we can afford to pay for, not what we would like to have. I support the petition incidentally, Sir, MR.

SPEA...'<ER : The hon. member forSt, John's East, MR. MARSHALL : Mr. Speaker, I want to have a few words on the petition in support of it. But before supporting it I would like to note that I do not think it fair or accurate,and nost of the members of this House have not done so, to indicate to people who are using electricity that you may not have to pay for it and to bring jn - or to make statements, let us put it this way, that the rates are too high and they should not have to be paid by the individuals concerned.

Because if they are not paid by the individuals concerned, this has already been pointed out, they are going to have to be paid by the taxpayers, So they are going to either have to be paid directly or indirectly, Now everyone can sympathize with what is in this petition.

I think what is at issue really is not so mach whether electrical costs should be paid for or how they should be paid for, that is probably another issue, but the main issue here is really are electrical costs in this Province being provided in the most economical manner ~ossible( I think that is really the question ~vhich brings in Newfoundland Hydro and I will agree with the position as we have agreed before, that Newfoundland Hydro should be brought before the Public Utilities Board. But I // 6052 •

~..ay 4' 1977 Tape No. 2164 NM - 3 ~1R. :-!ARSH..o\LL: _ ___ g? ... ~. little bit ~ur~her than that, I feel I r..rant to speak on this petition to once again advocate the position I brought up and other people have brought up before about Crown corporations, ar. intensive investigation by the Public Utilities Board is very beneficial and should take place and the consumers - ~. S~~LWOOD: ! -say more of them. MR. MARSHALL: - of them - by the Public Utilities Board of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Corporation should take place with respect to the rate structure and what have you.

But there should also be a media in this Ro~e, Mr. Speaker, _ as ! mention again and it will probably have just as hollow a ring as before, like the ring in a hollow oil barrel, that the Newfoundland Hydro's accounts should be brought before this Rouse or a committee of this House in addition to the Public Utilities Board in the same way as all other Crown corporations for as intensive and detailed an examination as this House or any committee of this House is capable of giving it. AN RON.

ME1BER: - by the Public Accounts. }ffi.. ~SHALL : No the Public Accounts Committee you see comes into effect - well the Public Accounts ~vhat it does is it examines the accounts of the Province after the fact. It comes into effect~I suppose,indirectly through the estimates but we do net really get an opportunity by the way the - we never have · _ 6D53

?'fay 4, 1977 Tape 2165 (Afternoon) JH - 1 ~-fR. MARSHALL : to really have a detailed investigation. Hhat I am talking about is that there should be a committee of this House \Jhere the president and various officers of Newfoundland Hydro as ~vell as other Crown corporations are called before that committee before they are given approval to expend the monies which they tvish to expend for the purpose of having them examined as to the appropriateness, the reasonableness and the economies of the measures that they propose to take in t~e ensuing year.

To examine it after the Public Accounts Committee, by the Public Accounts Committee might be valuable b_u.t it is like trying to shut the barn door after the horse has been let loose because you have no real control on the expenditures that have occured before. So I think that those are ~vo a~ that should be taken.

I agree with all speakers who have stated that the public has to pay for it anyway whether directly or indirectly and the major issue confronting us on electrical charges is for the people of this Province to be convinced that the charges are as economical as they possibly can be even though they Dight be high and they may be burdensome. The only way that. this can be determined is by certainly submitting them to the Public Utilities Board. That ~.;auld be very valuable, indeed it would be invaluable but it certainly should go one step further.

The Newfoundland Light and Power Company~ to which the member for Conception Bay South referred has to,in addition to the Public Utilities Board 1 has to report to its Board of Directors, its shareholders and Board of Directors and here in this Province, of course,the shareholders of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Corporation are the people of Newfoundland and the people of Newfoundland should receive a report through a committee of the House because this is the only way it can operate. So those I think are t-.;Jo positive steps.

I do not kno~.; what we are going to do with Crown corporations, Hydro or any other of the Cro~m corporations. They seem to be running a-.;vay and - 6054

~1ay 4, 1977 Tape 2165 (Afternoon) ~!.L HARSHALL : running !V'ild w.he ther they are wasting money, they certainly appear to be spending a lot of money,whether they waste it or not nobody really knows but we will never know until these accounts are brought before the House or a committee of it. ~fR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: ~r. Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of 489 constituents in the district of LaPoile. The petition circulated by the s·ame hon. lady, the hostess of the hot line programme in CHCM in ~arystown. Hr.

Speaker, I will be listening with intense interest to what han. gentlemen have to say in support of this petition. And I know, Mr. Speaker, that I cannot enter into the realm of debate but I want to say this, Sir, that it is a fallacy, it is a myth, we are fooling ourselves, we are being naive if we think for one moment that placing the New·foundland Hydro under the Public Utilities Board or under some other regulatory body is going to stop or bar the increases in electricity in this Province. It is not. He are just grasping for a s tra~v, Sir. ~r.

Speaker, let us look at regulatory bodies,the Public Utilities Commission with all due to the gentlemen who are on the Board, hon. gentlemen, the Public Utilities Commission, any other regulatory body is decided by a ~inute-in-Council, by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council, then they bring legislation into this House and then the Lietuenant­ Governor -in-Council makes the appointments to these beards. Immediately, Mr. Speaker, the dice are loaded. The cards are stacked against the consumer.

These people ·will follow vThatever instructions are issued by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council, and let us not fool ourselves, Sir, that these increases that we are now talking about, that we are tignting the instructions, the cecision has been made on the ~ighth Floor of this building. ~1r. Spe3.ker, >-That is happening here is that the :~e~vfoundland Hydro have been ordered to go from a deficit position to a profit position in a very short tL~e, and that is why they are 6055 JH - 2

~l ay 4 , 1977 Tape 2165 (Afternoon) JH - 3 ~. ~eary: asking for over a 40 per cent increase in electricity rates. That is the political decision, Sir. You do not expect one regulatory body to regulate another governll\ent reg~latory body , Hr. Speaker, ~ve are just being naive and stupid if we expect that. It is not going to happen. ~ve are grasping for s tra':vs. And that can only be the reaction of a hard pressed govetnment,to get the government off the hook. That is the only reason why these bodies are established, Mr. Speaker, Ncn1, Mr. Speaker, let us be realistic about it.

What we have to do is this, if we are going to be positive, my hon. friend from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) touched on it when he said "Let us be 6056

'-1ay 4, 1977. Ta'l?e 2166 P.H - 1 }.fR. ~TEARY : honest about it, He ~ave to do one of t-cvo or three things in this Province. r.re have, first of all, Sir, to recover enough money from the sale of the nmo1er of the TJp!'er Churchill to subsidize electricity in this Province, or, alternatively, •ve have to develop the Lov7er Churchill, not to bring it to the Island because that would be imnractical.

There is no way that you can sell the pot·rer from the Lower Churchill on the Island of ~:r e~vfoundland ~y a transmission line, by building a tunnel to sell it less than twenty-two or twenty-three or t'venty-four mils, no ~•ay. So that is not ~oing to reduce the cost of electricity on the Island. So ·tmat ~· · e have to do is to bargain our nosition of the Lmo1er Churchill, to sell it, to export it, and the revenue that comes into the public Treasury, use that to subsidize electricity to lower the price of electricity to the consumers on the Island of tTeHfoundland. Other..rise, Yr.

Sneaker, the only other alternative is to develon the hvdro potential that ~.;e have in the small rivers and streants on the Island part of this Province. And if we cannot do that, Sir, then ~·7e are slaves to the Arabs.

It is the Arabs, Sir, it is t~e forei~ countries, the oil producing countries - the decisions are being made outside of this Province to increase electricitY rates in this Province. ~.f'P_ • Si"fALL POO fl : The same thing anplies to Canada and the United States. ~~- - ~rEARY: Hell, more so to Ne•.rfoundland, more . so to ~Je~.rfoundland. ~· ~aybe to Canada and the "United States hut !!".ore so to this Province. And this is '·rhat ~.re are dealing 1·1i th now, the nrice of electricity - ::m. .

S~!.ALL\-.TQOD : \.Je feel it more. ~fR. ~TEARY : He feel it more. .<\nd -eve at·e being forced to be slaves to the Arabs, Sir. They are calling the shot because "t·7e are exnanding the thermal generating plant over here at Holvrood and •·Te are gettin~; into gasoline operated turbines "tvhich are verv, verv expensive one rations. So, :rr. Sneaker, r-re are talking about a situation over which \ve ~r:1ve no control unless, Sir, t-re are ~renared to accent the challen~e. Either use . 6057

·~av 4, 1977. Tane 2156 RH - 2 ~.r:R. 'iEl\ .RY: wind, solar power, tide ~r.oveT..ents or to look it'l.to the possi~ility of developing t~e hydro potential of the small rivers and streams on this Island. And nohody can tell me, Sir, that ~v-e do not ,ave a ver;r _~Sreat potential on t~is Island. And ur.til He are or epa red, ;-!r. SoeaJr.er, to come to grips tvit~ this problem "tve can grasp for all the straws we like and He can talk about regulatory bodies •..;hich is utter nonsense because they are bodies that are established by the government. The dice are loaded, not going to help the consumer.

They are not going to look into the extravagance and tvaste, into the various Cro~m corporations like Newfoundland Hydro and so forth. \·le are only wasting our time, Sir, unless ~o1e are prepared to face up to the problem and come to grips Hith the problem and try to develop the hydro notential on this Island, otherv1ise, develop the hydro potential of Labrador, export the poHer, use the revenue that comes into the public Treasury to subsidize the cost of electricity on the Island part of this Province. MR • SPEA ... T<ER : The han. reember for tvindsor-Buchans. ~-!R. FLIGHT : Yr.

Speaker, I rise to support the oetition so ably presented by the ~on. member from LaPoileC·~r. Neary) and the han. member from Burin-Placentia ~.Jest: C·tr. Canning). 11r. Speaker, some of the things I have heard in the course of debate this afternoon is absolutely appalling. \4hen I hear a minister of the Crown standing up and suggestjng that somebody, t~e groups, various groups should get together to make a case against Newfoundland Hydro. Now what a red herring, :Mr. Speaker. ~,Te~.;foundland Hydro is au arm of the nrovincial government. It is a Croto7n corporation.

And if t~ere is a case to be made, why should Cabinet recommend that somebody else make it. If any member of ~abinet or any member of this government feels that there is a case to be mane against Hydro; then how they would have the face to suggest that somebodY else make it is beyond me. If there is a case and there is a case and the ministers have accented, an han. minister spoke, stood un and said that he ~ould recommend that a - 6058

Taoe 2166 RH - 3 ~ffi • FL IGm : case be made against Hydro, well, who is better equipped and T,rhose responsibility is it to make the case against NewfoundlaQ.d Hvdro morp_ th-an not Cabinet itself. And, ~.r. Speaker, the Newfoundland people have been hoodt.o~inked, sucked in to using electric heat in their ho'Mes. Re-gardless of whose administration or regardless of / _ 60SS •

May 4, 1977 Tape No. 2167 ~T:M- 1 MR. FLIGHT: ~~!!.~~ it haopened it happened. And people on fixed incomes decided that electric heat would be the cheapest. We were going to get cheap - ~. MURPHY: ~r. Speaker, if I could -would you pardon me please? I just ~<~ant to come to a point of order. Because I said nothing about going against Hydro. Hydro had never b~en before the Public Utilities Commission. I refened to Light and Power and the others, I did not talk about Hydro at all. So the gentleman I think is mistaken, MR. FLIGHT: Be that as it may, Mr.

Soeaker. the fact is that the Cabinet has got to accept the re'sponsibility for the actions of Newfoundland Hydro. The Cabinet has got to accept the responsibility that the people of Newfoundland were deceived into believing that electricity woUld be abundant and cheap and the same people built homes and used electricity for heating purposes, And now once the government and once Hydro had them in their clutches we see a steady escalation of the cost of electricity, It is not a case, Mr.

Speaker, of whether the peo?le of Newfoundland will or will not pay their electrical bill, it is a case as to whether they can or cannot pay it and any gentleman, any family living in this Province today who has got a fixed income of $300, $400, $500 cannot pay $250 for a light bill. It is as simple as that. It is not a case of whether they will or whether they will not. And another thing that is happening here, Mr. Speaker, is Hydro in lots of cases are getting blamed for things that the Cabinet and the government is responsible for. I represent two towns, Mr.

Speaker, that has got the hydro lines passing r:t.ght through one of the towns but those two towns are forced to stay on diesel because the Cabinet refused to ~ke the funds available in the Rural Electrification Vote that would take them off hydro. ~'fR. SMALUlOOD: Hhat are the two? _ 6G60

~ay 4, 1977 Tape No. 2167 NM- 2 '-fR. FLIGHT: ~illertown and Buchans J•lnction. Now, ~r. Speaker, the avera~e bills in those communities during last Winter was anywhere from $200 to $250 to $300 for diesel power. The cost of the line would have been S500,000, ~~. Speaker,and Cabinet decided to withhold those funds. So in this case Hydro is not to blame. The Cabinet is to blame. Cabinet is perpetrating on t:hose people a situation where they wiJ.l pay $200 a month for electricity. MR.

PECKFORD: They have not got the money to do all the hydro lines in the Province because they need dollars now to do it. capital costs now you will find operating later. MR. FLIGHT: Well, Mr. Speaker - MR.. PECKFORD: It is not as simple a.matter as that. Where are you going to get the money1 ~1R •. FLIGHT : Mr. Speaker, you have not got the money to do all the hydro projects in the Province that may be, but as the han. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) said, why does not Cabinet accept the responsibility and rein in Hydro and look at the millions of dollars that that Crown corporation is spendin~ that is not necessary. I have made a point - $500,000 would electrify two communities. Getting back to the jet and I do not want to be petty, what would it have cost the jet to operate if we had ground it? MR. PECKFORD: That has no relevance. That is out of CFLCo. and and not out of Newfoundland Hydro as it is reflected in the rate. That is completely irrelevant. MR. FLIGHT: It is relevant, Mr.

Speaker, as far as the people who are paying the bills are concerned. So, Mr. Speaker, I believe that the Cabinet has got a responsibility to the people of this Province. 'l.ffi. PECKFOF.D: ~. FLIGHT: Sure they have. Nobody is arguing that. And I do not believe that they should be shuffing that responsibility off on the Public Utilities Board. :-!R. PECKFORD: Oh , yes on the Board. Somebody has got to take 6D61.

~y 4, 1977 Tape No. 2167 ~. PECKFORD: ·- .. a_ l.9ok at the that, Cabinet cannot, they are not qualified. NM- 3 ~IR. FLIGHT: The Public Utilities Board was appointed by and answers to the government. MR. NEARY: That is right. ~. FLIGHT: And it is a political decision all the way down the line. MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. ELIGHT: And the Cabinet should take responsibility for what happens in this Province with regard to Ne~rioundland Hydro. ~!R. NEARY: That is right. MR. FLIGHT: And until they start taking that responsibility we will not see any change in Hydro's actions.

The people of this Province believe that Hydro is a fat cat spending money all over the Province, there are fleets of all-terrain vehicles, you cannot drive in Central Newfoundland without meeting half a dozen Newfoundland Hydro vehicles. MR.. NEARY: That is right. ~. FLIGET: You just cannot do it. And that gives the impresssion to the people of this Province that Hydro is making a profit - MR. PECKFORD: ~ey are not. MR. FLIGHT: And then the question is whether they are spending it vTisely. Hr.

Speaker, it is time for us to stop playing around with this and have the Cabinet take the responsibility that they mve to the people of this Province. They have not done it yet. MR. • CALLA.~ : Eighty thousand dollar a year salaries, MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Eagle River. MR. ST~\CRAN: Mr.

Speaker, in supporting the member for LaPoile's petition there are a couple of points I want to raise that he had mentioned in the - I do not know if they are in part of the prayer of the petition but they are points that we should look at because we are concerned not only now with the production of electricity but down the road ~dth the production of electricity. And the 6G62

May 4, 1977 Tape no. 2168 Page 1 - ms ::1r • Strachan. member for LaPoile (~r Neary) raised the problem of trying to get small river production in this Province. There are a great deal of small rivers. l1R.NEARY: }1R. STRACHA.'i : MR. NEARY: MR. STRACHAN: How about Lloyds River? And we raised the question - That is right. One second. - we raised the question here then that there is a method of small river low head production using a strafio turbines which we brought up before. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR..

STRACH.<\N: The straflo turbines give a reduction in capital cost of between 15 per cent and 30 2~r cent, and they have a :ar greater efficiency than the Kaplan or Francis turbines which require the threefold change in direction with frictional losses. So there should be consideration then and discussion done for the future in the development of straflo turbines to produce electricity in the areas where it can be provided to communities and therefore lower the production costs. Another point that I would like to raise here in trying to lower - it should be looked at possibly in trying to lower HR.

SMALLWOOD: Would the han. member please allow me? Does the hon. member knmv? Is he a~vare of whether or not the Hydro Cormnission have looked at that? ~1R. S TRACH.Al.'i : Well, I think I will probably leave it to the minister to respond to that. My feeling is that they probably looked at it, but there was at one time a great deal of problems with the straflo turbine, because it requires a rim, the generating - what is it you call it? - it is on the rim, and there is a difficulty ~vith the operation of that rim. And this was the real problem at one time. There is not a shaft in the centre of it.

It is generated in the rim. And I think there were problems. But apparently these have been overcome. There are successful installations in Austria and Germany. 6·063

May 4, 1977 Tape no. 2168 Page 2 - ms MR. NEARY: 'iofaat about that company in Sw·itzerland? MR. STRAC1WT: Escherwyss Company of Zurich, Switzerland. ~m.. NEARY: That is right. MR. STRACHA..'IIl: -are producing these straflo · turbines. So possibly this could be looked into. The second point I would like to raise is the fact that in this time when we are asking for energy conservation in this Provine~ - MR. PECKFORD: The first member who mentioned. it out of all the people who have spoken so far. MR. :!EARY: No, Sir, I mentioned it weeks ago. MR.

STRACHAN: In energy conservation I agree with the programme, but I also want to talk about another aspect of energy conservation, and that is the fact that in 1974 alone, one hundred and fifty billion cubic feet of water was over-spilled in Churchill Falls. In 1975 it was one hundred and eighty-six billion cubic feet of water which • was over-spilled in Churchill Falls which if generating capacity had been there could have produce about 3.9 billion kilowatts of power. An this represents something like 6.5 million barrels of oil that we could have saved in the generation of electricity.

So there should be a look at this. The over-spill in fact from Churchill Falls could have produced roughly 70 per cent of the power required by Nova Scotia, and there should be a look at that kind of over-spill and all the situations in order to produce electricity more cheaply. AN HON. MEMBER: Which Churchill? MR. STRACHAN: That is the Upper Churchill. And then the energy conservation MR.. PECKFORD: (Inaudible) . MR. STRACHAN: My figures by the ~·ray are from the President of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, Dennis Groom who produced these figures.- :t:-m.. PECKPORD: I am not talking about the figures. ~·fR.

STRACHA...'IIl: - and I quoted these. ~. PECKFORD: I am talking about development and transmission of electric generated at the Upper Churchill site. 6.U64

May 4, 1977 Tape nc. 2168 Page 3 - ms MR. STRACH&~: I am only· stating the point as he presented it. He presented it as a point of energy conservation, and I am stating this as a point of energy conservation. And, of course, the programme which the minister has now got into of developing an energy conservation programme which is understood in this Province.

And I think that if we could put some of these things and start looking down the line, maybe then we can start producing cheaper electricity in future for our smaller areas and rural areas which are really being hit, not so much the larger areas, but I think the rural areas are really being hit badly by the rising costs of electricity. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of !1ines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, first of all let me say that it has been a very interesting discussion and debate on the petitions that have been presented by different han. members. ·I am especially impressed with the remarks of the han. member for Eagle River (}fr. Strachan) , the han. Leader of the Opposition and the han. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) who I thought took a very extremely responsible position relative to the prayer of the petitions presented. I, too, Mr. Speaker, support the prayer of the petitions that have been presented.

I again as an individual, as a Hinister of the Crown, as a member for a district, oppose increases to electrical rates in this Province in principle. A..~ HON. ME1-1BER: What about the tax increases? MR. PECKFORD: I oppose the tax increases that we have announced. I oppose a whole lot of things in principle, but I also recognize the realities of the situation. Now look, Mr. Speaker, let us get one thing straight. What the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) had to say in my opinion - and with all due respect to the hon. member -was elementary, stupid and foolish for the most

part 1 very, very foolish. MR. FLIGHT: Was he? ~·fR. PECKFORD: It showed the lack of knowledge on the part of the hen. member. Crazy! Crazy! ~IR. FLIGHT: It would be in your case. 6·065

i!a.y 4,1977 Tape zy;q :\E-1 It ~vou1d 'be in vour case. Let us just recognize that in the budget this ve-'3.r tl"lat t~i:s government today - in the next couple of ~-1eeks 'rill 'be asking the hen. Bouse to annrove Sl9.U. million for subsidizing Newfoundland Hydro, Sl9. 4 million, ta."< money to subsidize Ner.vfoundland Hydro. MR. NEARY: More or less. PEC!~Orill: ~rr. Speaker, I have only got about four minutes left. all the hon ·gentlemen on the other side had a chance to speak I will not continue my speach if I cannot have protection from the Chair so that I can speak in silence.

Speak 'Nithout nobody else saying anything. MR. S~!.ALL \.JOOD : We need to keep silent. MR. NEARY: The hon .• gentleman made - ~- PECKFORD: I know I corrected it. HR. NEARY: I move to repeat the auestion, ~~r. Speaker. '":R. SPEA.._T(.F.R : I cannot accept the motion because the previous cruestion has to be moved to a motion and strictly speaking during netitions there is no motion before the Chair. Y!L LUNDRIGAL~: Better to give protection, Hr. Speal-:er. MR. SPE.~R: I am not aware of any point of order before the Chair so I am not permitted to go into a gratuitous discourse. HR. PECKFORD: 'fr.

Speaker, the important a_uestion here as has been addressed by a number of hen members is that we insure that any increase in electrical lights in this Province j_s the ~inimum that is necessary to cover costs by the various utilities. That the peoule of this 'Province have to be convinced that '.vhatever the increase is it is only the increase necessary to continue the ongoing business of generating and distributing electrical pm-1er in the Province. They have to be convinced of that. ~rR • !-TElu.~Y : But they are not convinced. 6G66

:'-~av 4,1977 TAne 21f9 Y~R. PECKFORD: One ~vay in 'vhich t!-.is can be done is to put the crown corporation :re~·rfoundland Rvdro under a oublic ~card, like Utilities Board. MR. NEARY: ~·!R. PECKFORD : Do not be so foolish 'bov' ~~d to insure that their accounts, their hudget is absolutely and totally scrutinized every ~vay, shape or form by that l,oarri. HR .• PECKFORD: And I concur. with the Leader of the Opposition that there must be some kind of adversary system to insure that this is done.

You just do not trust to the board,even though they are very confident, you _iust do not trust to these people that they \·lill not be swayed by the experties that 'tvill come from the large corporation. That there is a very real responsibility unon Cabinet and government, this House to insure that this kind of adversary system is placed so that when an increasP. t.c; approved ~y the board it can be recognized by all and sundry_ in the Province to be a reasonable and just increase given the evidence put forward by both parties, by both sides of the argument.

That is what t.;e intend to do, that is r.-rhat we intend to do and ':·le ~.;ill see that through. Absolutely no cruestion about it that that adversary system has to be in 1Jlace. NovJ all the other red herrings that have been brought into the debate are hardly worthy to co~ment on, reallv. That is the kev question in the whole thin~. Rear, hear! Hr. Speaker, let us reme!!lher, let us rer::.ember that the orice of oil in Eastern Canada today is being subsidized. ~ffi.. FLIGRT: Row about the Golden Eagle situation? MR. PECKFORD: At the price - HR.. SP EA..TZER : Order please!

The ~on. ~entlernan did inform members that he ~nshed his ri~ht to he strictly observed so I must direct the hoR gentleman to be silent. 6C67

!'-!av 4,1977 Tape 2169 AH-3 ~1R. PECKFORD : The Price of oil has to be imPorted to Eastern Canada from Venezuela is being su~sidized. ?he international price of oil today is around Sl4 oer l'la.rrel, that is the intern~tional price. It is being subsidized dmm t.o S9.25 by the taxoayers of Canada rl!!ht no~ot. HR. SMALLW'OO!J : MR. PEC'KFORD : that is the price of oil, <i9.25 - As aeainst $14·. As against $14 - Sl4.10 to be exact, $14.10, that is being subsidized under the compensation programme announced by Ottawa -tmich they are trying to get out off now because it is costing them to lllUc.h.

Some months they ~vill tnake it from their ten cents excise and other months they will not and they are getting into trouble on it. So let us remember t~at when we talk about higher cos·ts due to more oil fired generation let us put it int-o penp.ee.t:ive that we an somewhat lucky in Eastern Canada and in Canada in general because we are living in a system '~hereby gowrnments have recognized - - 6(68

Hay 4, 1977 Tape 2170 (Afternoon) PK - 1 Hr. Peckford: the Federal Government has recognized with the provinces that some kind of compensation programme to press the international price downwards to make it easier on the consumer who has to buy electricity generated by oil and that that kind of - and that is going to go up next week. MR. -NEARY: The tarrif s •.• MR.. PECKFORD : A decision will be made next week for the 1st. July. Let us not forget either, Mr. Speaker, that every small hydro site in this Island has been examined in the last ~No or three years by Newfoundland Hydro, every single one.

That is number one point. Number two point - MR. NEARY: No way. That is not true. MR. PECKFORD: Number two point - MR. NEARY: What about the Straflo system? MR. PECKFORD: The system mentioned by the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) has also been studied, we have had people go look at, not read it in books, but go rook at it and to see how it operates. Number three, there is only one small hydro site in the Province that can ensure fairly relatively cheap power today, and that is Lloyds River. SOME RON. MEMBERS: HR. PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER: MR. PECKFORD: NR. SPEAKER: MR. PECKFORD: SO~!.E RON. MEMBERS: HR.

SPEAKER: HR PECKFORD: HR. LUNDRIG&>l: ~1R. SPEAKER: can continue by leave. SOME EON. ME~ffiERS: Oh, oh! The rest of them Hynes Lake, Upper Salmon - Order, please! Up Terra . Nova, Upper and Lower - Order, please! Cat Arm are all - Oh, oh! Order, please! - expensive sites. And we have cancelled Lloyds River. The hon. gentleman's time has expired. He By leave. . 6G69

May 4, 1977 Tape 2170 (Afternoon) PK - 2 HR. SPEAKER: The hon. gentleman has leave to continue. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave! By leave! XR. PECKFORD: I got to have by leave from everyb~dy, I do not have it by the hon. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Xr. Simmons). MR.. SPEAKER: Dces the han. gentleman have leave to continue? HR. SIMMONS: Two minutes. HR. PECKFORD: Two minutes is no good,I would just as soon sit down. MR. NEARY: We gave the member for Placentia extra time. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. -· M'R~ SIMMONS: Who did? !u~ RON • MEMBER: \ve did so. MR. S D1MONS : He was making sense about it. ~1R.

PECKFORD: There is no need - it is all right, Mr. Speaker, continue. HR. S !!-!MONS : I rise to support the petition so ably presented by my colleague for Fortune-Hermitage (Mr. J. Winsor). ~1R. LUNDRIGAN: ,1-l'as he at it I wonder? HR. SD1NONS : I attempted to comment on what just transpired. rhe last time I saw a fellow get so exercised he died just after of epilepsy. Mr. Speaker, the member for St. John's East actually mentioned a point that bears re-enforcing. He and I are not always in agreement but on those happy occasions when he has the wisdom to say something as intelligent as he said today - MR.

LUNDRIGAN: (Inaudible) . MR. SIMMONS: Well the sometimes Caoinet Hinister from Grand Falls - ~!R. Lt!NDRIGAJ.~: (In.<tuciihle) . XR. S~10NS: Mr. Speaker, I have tried some difficult stuff in my day but never anything as difficult as trying to educate that hon. member. That is beyond me completely. Even his Premier could not do anything for him there, ~- [r. Speaker. So I am not ev~n going to try.

May 4, 1977 Tape 2170 (Afternoon) PK - 3 Mr. Simmons: Mr. Speaker, the member for St. John's East (!-lr. Harshall) mentioned the need for some kind of a committee, a Committee of the House-s We __ . have all mentioned possible solutions here today and perhaps what ought to be done when the afternoon is over, politics aside, and we have said some fairly partisan things, put that side, perhaps some ideas have come out of the afternoon discussion which can be followeJ up.

And one of the ideas is the need for some kind of a committee, I do not advance this as the only solution or the solution} but it may well be a part of the solution. I understand that a number of t:!e P=ovi.."lces of Canada in addition to the Public Accounts Committee :1as a committee on Crown corporations, and indeed we are one of the few provinces now which does not have such a committee, a separate committee which performs somewhat of a Public Accounts function on Cro~~ corporations.

The extra ingredient . that would be required - the extra ingredient that would be required is the licence or the freedom to investigate during the fact instead of only after the fact as it applies in the case of Public Accounts Committees - and I believe with the proliferation of Public or Crown corporations, Housing Corporations, Ne~V'foundl.and and Labrador Development Corporation, Hydro, there must be, I do not know how many, but there must be fifteen or twenty or so Crown corporations. HR. DOODY: ~1R. STI1MONS: At least. At least those many, the Minister of Finance indicates.

And there certainly is a need for some input from this particular level here, the elected level of public life,to have - 6071

May 4, 1977 Tape No. 2171 NM- 1 ~. SIMMONS: some input into the decision making of those co~orations. I do not suggest that that committee ought to be a board of directors but they ought to be a sounding board at the very least and a control function at most. They ought to exercise some control over these corporations. The case before us is a good one, the need for somebody to ·hold some rain on .this empire building Hyd~o. I have never seen anything, Mr.

Speaker, in this Province and I suppose there is hardly anything in Canada where a corporation, financed by the public funds completely, has skyrocketed into a literal empire so fast to the direct financial advantage of a few and to the direct financial misery of almost every taxpayer in this Province. It is an incredible situation, incredible beyond words.

And it is almost an indictment of us as a people that we would allow it to go on and to extend itself and to grow like a monster as I described it recently in this Rouse,as a Frankenstein's monster,and it is almost to that ?Oint where it has gotten sadly out of control. We the taxpayers hardly kno~-1 what is going on, & . Speaker.

I believe that we ought to give some attention to the matter of a committee of this Rouse which would perform the .function I have mentioned over Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and also in relation to others of the fifteen or twenty or twenty-five Crown corporations which we .have in this Province. I believe that "kind of a committee is long overdue. The BC Legislature has just introduced legislation to make exactly this kind of a committee a part of its structure. The Saskatchewan Legislature already has that kind of committee.

I am not aware of which other provinces do though I am told that others do, But these are two present examples where Saskatchewan has one and BC has just seen the wisdom and has introduced 6D72

~ay 4, 1977 Tape No. 2171 ~- 2 ~~. SI~ONS: legislation the past four or five weeks to bring in such a co~ittee as part of its legislative structure. I would strongly recommend that we in this House be looking at that kind of committee as well. I believe it would serve us very well but it might hold in rein some how ~ if it is possible to hold in rein at all, this monster, this ~Tewfoundland and Labra·dor Hydro. It might serve "to hold it in rein before it is too late. ~!R. NEARY: Hear: Hear! non MR. !iPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. ~m. DOODY: This is a motion, Mr. Speaker. ~R.

SPEAKER: Does the hon. minister have leave to revert to a notice of motion. Agreed. NOTICES OF MOTION: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave of the House to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Loan and Guarantee Limitation Act, 1975." (Bill No. 54) ORAL QUESTIONS: XR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development, Sir.

I would like to ask the minister if there is any foundation to the fact that a sawmill in around near Gander had its equipment seized by the minister's department thus forcing the lumber c~mpany, the sawmill, out of business'Z MR. SPEAXER: The hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. MR. LmmRIGA..~: ~. Speaker, the answer is a categorical no. The company the hon. member is referring to I believe is Gancer Lumber Comoany - ~. NEARY: That is right. 6G73

May 4, 1977 Tape No. 2171 NM - 3 ~. LUNDRIGA.L'f: - that have.had an in'!)ut of some $340,000 from various government sources and that have been unsuccessful unfortuantely. I believe the member is indicating there was a Rural Development loan to a subsidiary called Lakeside Lumber and that they did have equipment which was not able to be handled by the company and that equipment has been - what is the word, what word did he use, seized? MR. NEARY: That is right. MR..

LUNDRIGMT: That equipment has been repossessed, I believe is the word, like maybe I will give the statistics and there is time maybe 100 companies that have had Rural Develo~ent loans for the · past five years, four-and-a-half years. The answer is no. The company has had severe financial problems.

About eighteen months ago, as a matter of fact the first res~onsibility I assumed was to put the - ! am quoting off the top of my head, I am not anticipating the question - $135,000, I believe)as a loan guarantee. . behind that particular company, the company .. that employed a number of people in the Fogo district and in the Gander district as well, and particularly the Gander Bay area where there is a lot of high unemployment 6D74

May 4, 1977 Tape no. 2172 Page l - ms Mr. Lundr igan. as 'weil, and it is with a lot of re~ret as a matter of fact, ~~. Speaker, beca~se of the fact of it, number one. The second thing is that personalities can enter into it. The individual, the prime owner, the manager is a person I have known for quite a number of years.

And every effort was made, considerable effort to support that particular company even to the point where I personally a year and-one-half ago almost uent against recommendations of officials in the department to put a final - what we thought was a final level of support behind t~at particular company. !1R. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A Supples:nentary. MR. NEARY: Do I understand from the hon. minister, Mr. Speaker, that if the minister and his department had not put the blocks to the Gander Bay Lumber Company - MR. LUNDRIGA.i'l: We did. MR.

NEARY: - which the hon. minister did, but if the I minister had not done that, that the company would not have survived anyway? Is that what the minister is telling the House? MR. LUNDRIGAN: No , Mr. Speaker, it is absolutely untrue, and incorrect. The govertWent have not done anything to exacerbate the conditions of that particular company. As a matter of fact the loans have not been called. The banks, of course, were the people who were the most concerned, because they were exposed as well.

And the government did nothing, absolutely nothing but to try and alleviate the problems right to the point where it was required for the company to survive. It would have been necessary for the government to bring in guarantees, substantial guarantees behind that company. And, of course, the conclusions were arrived at that even with substantial guarantees behind the company, it was impossible for the company to survive because it could not have tolerated that kind of a debt load. It would not tolerate the debt load that was in axistence. 6075

~ay 4, 1977 Tape no. 2172 Page 2 - ms Hr. Lundrigan . And I twould go further ·anci· sa:y, Xr.-Speaker, that in response to a question that should be raised every day -I am disappointed that we do not get more questions on the foreatry industry - that a lot of our larger mills have had trouble, and will continue to have trouble. The half dozen large mills that are in the Province have had very great difficulty in surviving, and I will get an opportunity, I hope, during the estimates to give some of the reasons for it. MR. NEARY: MR. ·SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary, question, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary.

A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the minister, Sir, What happens in the case of equipment that is repossessed such as the equipment that was repossessed from the Gander Bay Lumber Company, and equipment from other companies? I notice that there are a lot of ads in the newspapers listed under the purchasing agency, the purchasing department of the provincial gov