Manitoba Hansard — 27 February 1964 (Sitting 21, 27th Legislature, 2nd Session)

27-2-21

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ELECTORAL DIVISION ARTHUR ASSINIBOIA BIRTLE-RUSSELL BRANDON BROKENHEAD BURROWS CARILLON CHURCHILL CYPRESS DAUPHIN DUFFERIN ELMWOOD EMERSON ETHELBERT-PLAINS. FISHER FLIN FLON FORT GARRY FORT ROUGE GIMLI GLADSTONE HAMIOTA INKSTER KILDONAN LAC DU BONNET LAKE SIDE LA VERENDRYE LOGAN MINNEDOSA MORRIS OS BORNE PEMBINA PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE RADISSON RHINE LAND RIVER HEIGH'l'S ROBLIN ROCK LAKE ROCKWOOD- IBERVILLE RUPERTSLAND ST. BONIFACE ST. GEORGE ST. JAMES ST. JOHN'S ST. MA TTHEWS ST.

VITAL STE, ROSE SELKIRK SEVEN OAKS SOURIS-LANSDOWNE SPRING FIELD SWAN RIVER THE PAS TURTLE MOUNTAIN VIRDEN WELLINGTON WINNIPEG CENTRE WOLSELEY NAME J. D. Watt Steve Patrick Hon,Robert G. Smellie, Q. C. R. 0, Lissaman E. R. Schreyer Mark G. Smerchanski Leonard A. Barkman Gordon W. Beard Hon. Thelma Forbes Hon. Stewart E. McLean,Q. C. William Homer Hamilton S. Peters John P. Tanchak M. N. Hryhorczuk, Q. C. Emil Moeller Hon. Charles H. Witney Hon. Sterling R. Lyon, Q. C. Hon. Gurney Evans Hon. George Johnson Nelson Shoemaker B. P. Strickland Morris A. Gray James T. Mills Oscar F. Bjornson D. L.

Campbell Albert Vielfaure Lemuel Harris Hon. Waiter Weir Harry P. Shewman Hon. Obie Baizley Mrs. Carolyne Morrison Gordon E. Johnston Russell Paulley J. M. Froese Hon. Maitland B. Steinkopf,Q. C. Keith Alexander Hon. Abram W. Harrison Hon. George Hutton J. E. Jeannotte Laurent Desjardins Elman Guttormson D. M. Stanes Saul Cherniac k, Q. C. W. G. Martin Fred Groves Gildas Molgat T. P. Hillhous e, Q.C. Arthur E. Wright M. E. McKellar Fred T. Klym James H. Bilton Hon. J. B. Carroll P. J. McDonald Donald Morris McGregor Richard Seaborn James Cowan, Q. C. Hon.

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THE LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA 2:30 o'clock, Thursday, February 27, 1964. Opening Prayer by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPE AKER: Presenting Petitions MR. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Auguste Dansereau and others praying for the passing of

an Act to incorporate L' Association d'Education Canadiens-Francais du Manitoba. MADAM SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Notices of Motion In troduction of Bills MR. JA MES COW AN, Q. C. (W innipeg Centre) introduced Bill No. 42,

an Act respecting the United Dominions Investments Limited. MR. D. M. STANES (St. James) introduced Bill No. 64,

an Act for the Ralief of Cyril Alvin Henry, Service Station Operator, Joseph Allen Bryant, Merchant, and Frances Adelaide Bryant, his wife, all of the City of St. James, in Manitoba. MADAM SPEAKER: In the gallery there are some 45 Grade 11 students from Garden City School under the direction of their teacher, Mr. Mel Solar. This school is situated in the con stituency of the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. There are also some 55 Grades 7 and 8 students from La Broquerie School, under the direction of their teachers, Mr. Oscar Gagnon and Miss Carmelle St. Hiliare.

This school is situated in the constituency of the Honourable the Member for LaVerendrye. Nous vous souhaitons la bienvenue ici cette apres-midi. Nous esperons que tout ce que � ' vous avez vu et entendu a l'assem blee legislative vous sera utile dans vos etudes. Puis se cette visite vous inspirer et stimuler votre interet dans les affaires de la province. Revenez encore nous visiter. We welcome you here this afte�noon. We .hope that all that you see and hear in this Leg is lative Assembly will be of help to you in your studies.

May this visit be an inspiration to you and stimulate your interest in provincial affairs. Come back and visit us again. Orders of the Day HON. GEORGE HU TTON ( Minister of Agriculture) (Rockwood-Iberville): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I beg leave to lay on the table of the House the annual report of th e De partment of Agriculture and Conservation for the year ending March 31st, 1963 , and I would like to extend my abject apologies to the members of the Legislature for having to wait be yond the accepted time for this report. HON. MAITLAN D B. STEI NKO PF, Q.

C. (P rovincial Secretary) (River Heights): Madam '\_ Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to table a Return to an Order of the House, No. 11, on the motion of the Honourable Member for Brokenhead. HON. J. B. CARROLL (M inister of Welfare)( The Pas): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to table a Return to an Order of the House, No. 12, in the name of the Honourable the Leader of the ND P. HON. CH ARLES H.

WI TNEY (Minister of Health) (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, I would like to table a Return to the Order of the House, No. 20, on the motion of the Honourable Mem ber for Logan, and I'd also like to table the Annual Report of the Department of Health for the year 1963. MR. S. PETERS (Elm wood): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I'd like to di rect a question to the Minister of Industry and Commerce. I went into the library today asking for Sessional Paper No. 52, which is the Annual Report of the Manitoba Deve lopment Fund. They haven't received it in the library yet.

It was tabled in the House on February 20th , and I don't recall getting it my self if it was mailed. Perhaps it could be because Metro saw fit to change the name of my street from Melrose to Kimberley, so maybe it is waylaid in Transcona s omeplace. But I would like to get a copy of that report and I wonder if the Minister could tell me why it is not in the library . HON. GURNEY EV ANS (M inister of Industry and Commerce) (Fort Rouge): Madam Speaker , I am not aware as to why it is not in the library. I'll see that my honourable friend gets one. Feb ruary 27th, 1964. Page 511

MR . PETERS: I would like to thank the Honourable Minister. MR . RUSSELL PAULLEY (Lea der of the New Democratic Party) (Radisson) Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I asked a question the other day of the Honourable the Minister of Public Works in respect of salt on Metro streets . I note that there has been a carpet laid in the entrace of the Legislative Building. On inquiry, I have been told that it's so th at we can scrape the salt off of our feet before we come into this Chamber.

I again ask my honourable friend: does he intend to conduct an investigation into the adverse effects of salt on ho usehold effects? HON. WALTER WEIR (Minister of Public Works) (Minnedosa) : Madam Speaker, the an swer to the question is that we are still keeping a watching brief on the situation. A MEMBER: For how long? MR . DOUGLAS L. CAMPBELL (L akeside) : Madam Speaker , a supplementary question.

Is the carpet that the Honourable the Le ader of the NDP has mentioned there for the purpose of an experimentation to see just how great the ill effects of salt is on clothing and other materials that he was speaking about? MR . WEIR: Madam Speaker, this will certainly help us prove one point . HON. STEWART E. McLEAN, Q.C. (Attorney-General) (Dauphin) : Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to inform the members that we had a most pleasant meeting / this morning, the first of the Committee on Privileges and Elections , and we agreed to meet a gain next Thursday, a week from today.

My reason for speaking at this time , however, is to say that we would be glad to have anyone, either members of the Legislature or members of the public , come to our meeting in Room 254 , at 10:00 o'clock next Thursday to make such representations as they would like to make ;n respect of The Elections Act, and if our colleag- ues in the press could assist us in this matter we would appreciate it very much. MR. NELSO N SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): MaC:am Speaker , before the Orders of the Day, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Public Utilities .

Inasmuch as the Motor Vehicle Branch will not issue a licence for a power toboggan, of which there are thousands now in the province , does this mean that you cannot use them on highways or muni cipal roads or public roads? MR . STEINKOP F: That is right; you are not supposed to use them on highways or public roads. MR . SHOEM AK ER: Madam Speaker , a supplementary question. You are not supposed to . Well, is there a fine if you do? And where can you use them, because they have actually re placed the dog team , I am told, and will become very numerous in the future. MR .

STEINKOPF : There is quite an argument in The Pas whether they have replacad the I dog team or not . This is a relatively new vehicle or contraption that they have developed and the matter of safety is a very important one . We are looking into it now and making a study of the whole problem. It's been brought' to our attention very forcibly the last few weeks and f we are looking into the matter and hope to be able to come up with a report in the next few weeks on it . MR.

SHOEMA KER: Madam Speaker, I take it then , in the meantime , that there will be no fines levied until the committee reports and makes recommendations . MR . STEINKOPF : I haven't heard of any fines yet, but I'll look into that too for you. MR. GILDAS MOL GAT : (Lea der of the Oppos ition) (Ste. Rose) Madam Speaker , before the Orders of the Day, the House has been very kind to allow me to stand the resolution on Ways and Means , and if it is the wish of the government I would be prepared to go today, but I am not asking for any change in the Order Paper .

I appreciate what has been done so far and I am prepared to agree to whatever it is that the House wishes. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley) : Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend. I think it would be desirable to proceed today because this has now been stood for a week and we could proceed today and thus allow this debate to make some progress .

I would just mention , ho wever, that before I ask the Speaker to call that motion on Ways and Means , I would ask that the Motion on Concurrence in respect of the Report of the Committee that is studying the li vestock situation be called so that we may get that debate initiated as well. So we will pro ceed with the ordinary course of business , Madam Speaker , until we come to the resolution of the Committee of Supply. At that stage we would then call the report of the Liv estock Page 51 2 February 27th , 1964 .

• (Mr. Roblin cont'd) .... Committee and, after that; the motion on Ways and Means and resume the budget debate. MADAM SPEAKER: Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. J. M. FRQESE (Rhineland): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Brokenhead, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: 1. The amow1ts the Manitoba Government is committed to future Capital Grants on outstanding Cap ital liabilities by School Divisions, School Districts, Hospital Areas, etc., not appearing in Publk Accounts of the "Province of Manitoba: (

a) For the Department of Education; (

b) The Department of Health; (

c) The Department of Agriculture; (

d) Others. 2. The amounts to be paid annually, in the. categories named above, from 1963 onward until paid for. 3. The amounts paid annually, in the above named categories, in the years 1958 to 1962 inclusive. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, may I ask a question of the honourable member who just moved the motion. I had some conversations with him pointing out certain problems in answer ing the motion as listed on the Order Paper, and asking him if he would be satisfied with the information in a different form. I wonder if that does now meet with his approv- aL !VIR.

FROESE: Madam Speaker, I'll be satisfied with whatever information I can get and which is within the bounds of the government to give me. MR. ROBLIN: Thank you, Madam Speaker. MR. PAULLEY: I wonder, Madam Speaker, whether the rest of us can be let in on the secret as to what information will be forthcoming that has been agreed to by the Social Credit Member for Rhine land and the First Minister. MR. ROBLIN: I anticipated that question and I was scouting for my honourable friend before we came in, but I didn't get him in time.

He has my little piece of paper with the de ta ils of the kind of information that can be provided. If he still has it in his pocket, if he might read it then the House would know just -- he hasn't got it -- (interjection) -- Oh, I have it. Here we are. It's not possible to determine the Capital Grants beyond the level of exist in g Capital Liabilities as the amount is directly related thereto. In these circumstances it would be only possible to give the actual grants payable with respect to a previously deter mi ned period. That's the first point.

The second point is: The amounts in total for each ty pe of grant could be produced on an estimated basis for 1963-64 and 1964-65. And three: The amounts in total of each type of grant could be produced on an actual basis for 1958-9 to 1962-3. So this is the information we will undertake to produce under the terms of this order. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the second reading of the proposed motion of the Honourable ....... . MR. ROBLIN: I observe that the question has not yet been put on this motion. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.

MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the second reading of the proposed motion of the Honourable the Minister of Public Utilities. The Honourable the Member for Carillon. MR. L. A. BARKMAN (Carillon): Madam Speaker, I beg the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed. The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honour able the Minister of Public Utilities. The Honourable the Member for Selkirk. MR. T. P. HILLHOUSE, Q.

C. (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, it may be anti-climax on my part to deal with this matter after the excellent presentation made here the other day by the Honourable Member for St. George in respect of Bill No. 37, but at the same time I feel that th e matter is of sufficient importance to deserve repetition and emphasis. In my opinion, the sole purpose of this amendment is to remove ministerial responsibility for the actions of the Hydro Board and to make that Board responsible and answerable to a standing committee of this Legislature.

If there is any doubt in anyone's mind as to the accuracy of th e statement which I have just made, I would refer you to Pages 277 and 288 of the February 20, 1964 issue of Hansard. I believe that this legislation is bad. I believe that this legislation is a negation of respon sible government. I believe too that it will interfere with the efficiency and affect the morale February 27th, 1964. Page 513

(Mr. Hillhouse cont'd) ..... of a board of a crown corporation, in that it will place that board into direct contact with and answerable to a committee of this Legislature. The other ev ening I asked the Honourable Minister the Provincial Secretary a question regarding the po licy of the purchasing bureau.

Now I could, Madam, have asked that question of the pur chasing agent direct, but at the sanie time I felt that it would not be fair for me, as a mem ber of this Legislature, to place a civil servant in the position where he may have to answer a question to me, or deny me an answer to a question which might affect a practice or a policy of the government.

This amendment in my opinion will force the members of the Hydro Electric Board to appear before a committee of this Legislature and to answer personally, and perhaps try to ju stify matters which could be a policy of this government and directed to be followed by that bo ard by this government, I believe that our present legislation is quite satisfactory in that it gives to Parliament an indirect control over a Crown Corporation, indirect in the sense that it is exercised by a Minister but nevertheless parliamentary in that the Minister is acting as a parliamentary agent and is responsible to Parliament for everything done by the corpora ti on over which he is responsible.

In conclusion, this legislation would deprive the members of this House of one of their most cherished democratic rights; namely, that of asking of a Minister the questions relating to the operation of a board or a commission under his jurisdiction. I feel, Madam, that this le gislation is bad. I think the government has made a mistake in introducing it and I would ask the government to withdraw it. MR. E. R.

SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Madam Speaker, the Honourable Member for Selkirk and I have both spoken on the other sister Bill and he found it necessary to make some further statement with regard to this Bill and so do I, because I interpret the intention of the government here in a way that is quite different from my honourable friends to the right. I get the impression that this government is tryL."l.g to change the relationship as between the two crown corporations and the Minister insofar as matters of detail are concerned.

It is a fact that a crown corporation works and labours under a distinct disadvantage, and that is the people, members of the general public tend to demand from it service to such an extent that it at times undermines the efficiency of the operation of crown corporations; and when cr own corporations tend to run up a deficit, then of course there is usually a holler when they have to be subsidized. But in any event, I don't think that we here should do anything that would put the efficient operation of a crown corporation in our jurisdiction under any kind of jeopardy.

I don't think that it is proper, constitutionally, for members to pester a Minister with questions of detail relating to a crown corporation and therefore I would wel co me the establishment of a committee -- or rather I would welcome the change in procedure whereby the annual report would be referred to a special committee, the standing committee that would have the report permanently referred to it.

Now then, there is nothing in the remarks made by the Honourable Minister that I could se e -- and I did do my homework, I did read the statement that he made -- there is nothing in there that I can construe or interpret as meaning that they will refuse henceforth to answer to questions of overall policy, and this is the nub of the matter. I hope that the Minister will set my honourable friends' minds at ease and tell them that, insofar as matters of overall policy are concerned, the Cabinet will still hold itself responsible.

There can be no other way, Madam Speaker, because the practice, and it's a well estab li shed practice by now, is that -- at least under the British parliamentary system -- is that matters of detail pertaining to crown corporations are kept out of the House. Questions and statements on broad and general and overall policy are threshed out in the House and I don't see any change in this l!')gislation or anything in this legislation that would change this. It's just the cleaning-up operation because of some misunderstanding that has taken place in the past few years. MR. M. N.

HRYHORCZUK, Q.C. (Ethelbert Plains): Madam Speaker, I wish to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Lakeside, that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed Resolution standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Morris. Page 514 February 27th, 1964.

MR. H.P. SHEWMAN (Morris): Madam Speaker, I wish to move, seconded by the Honour able Member from Gladstone, that this House doth concur in the final report of the special committee of the House appointed to enquire into all phases of the Livestock Marketing System in Manitoba received by the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba on Monday the lOth day of Feb ruary,, 1964. Madam Speaker presented the motion. - MR. SHEWMAN: Madam Speaker, it might appear that I might be reading my notes, which I will be in part.

The Committee, in acco .rdance with its terms of reference, undertook a comprehensive review of the livestock marketing system in Manitoba, what machinery is in volved; how it functions; which of its functions are not performed to the satisfaction of the in dustry; what the specific problems are; .what are the thinking of those involved in the industry. The Committee has also studied general principles of marketing systems and has gathered in formation and comments from those competent in the field in Manitoba and elsewhere.

It has co nsidered various methods and procedures in general for experimental use in other areas. Submissions were received by the committee that covered many aspects of the system and pre sented a variety of issues: public markets versus direct to plant deliveries; live and rail grad ing; health standards; community auction sales; transportation services; marketing margins. These are a few of the issues and problems presented for the committee's consideration.

In the early stages of its investigations the committee solicited submissions from all or ganizations known to be interested in the marketing of livestock and twenty briefs were submitted. lVIadam Speaker, the members will notice in their report that we went far and wide to gain the necessary information to be able to table the report which we tabled. And in the appendix -- we contacted a good many people in our investigations and the contacts with them, but there are a few names that I would like to mention at this time.

I would like to thank the members th at have worked on this committee with them and worked very well, such as the Honourable Walter Weir, Dan Roberts, George Johnson, D. I. Dow and Mr. Peter Wagner. It was Profes sor F. Campbell of the Ontario Agricultural University who was of great help in the experience that he had in Ontario in work along these lines, and was well acquainted with the problems of marketing livestock and other products in Ontario. At this time, I would like to thank Dr. J. C. Gilson and Dr. A. W.

Wood of the Department of Agriculture Economics for the University of Manitoba, and also the Manitoba Telephone System. They have put on a display for us of marketing livestock by television; also by teletype. I'd like to thank Professor J. H. Ellis of the Department of Mines and Natural Resources who co ntributed quite a bit of useful and well thought out information to the committee. Then there was the three farm organizations: Mr. Usick and Mr. Galonsky of the Farmers Union, Mr. Ransom and Mr. Douglas of the MFA, Mr. Kapiluk and Mr. Hamilton of the Pool. In Ontario, Madam Speaker, there was Mr. G. F.

Perkins, Commissioner of marketing; al so Mr. W. P. Watson, the Livestock Commissioner. There was a Mr. Fred Campbell, the Stockyards Manager at the stockyards in Toronto and Mr. Charles McGinnis, the Manager of FAME. In. Saskatchewan there was Mr. H. S. Hanna, Director of the Animal Industry Branch, Mr. Glenn Flaten, President of the Saskatchewan Hog Producers Association, and Mr. Ira K. Mumford of the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool. In Albert there was Mr. R. M. Putnam, Deputy Minister of Agriculture; Mr. W. H. T. Mead, Livestock Commissioner; also Mr. J. M.

Bentley, who is the National President of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture. At Lethbridge, Mr. E. French; and at Walsh, Alberta, a very interesting interview was held with Mr. Walsh who is a large rancher at Walsh,Alberta. Then in the United States we had interviews with Professor Lee Kolmer of State Iowa Uni versity; Mr. E. V. Stadel of the Farm Bureau Services Incorporated at Des Moines; Mr. Frank Kutish of the U .S . Department of Agriculture at Ames, Iowa;, Mr. R.A. Rodeen, President of the Sioux City Stock Yards; Mr. Harry Gamage, Secretary of the Sioux City Livestock Ex change; Mr. W. P.

Dolan, Secretary-Treasurer of the South St. Paul Stock Exchange; Dean Arlon G. Hazen of the North Dakota State University at Fargo, Director of the Agricultural Experimental Station. At this time I would like to thank those ones who helped us with the secretarial and February 27th, 1964. Page 515

(Mr. Shewman cont'd) ..... stenographic work. There was Miss Ruth Loutit, Mrs. Marjorie Badger, Mrs. Molly Bailey, Mrs. Betty Broadfoot, Mrs. Katherine Clancy, Miss Nan Guertin and Mrs. Phyllis Ke yworth. When this committee was established, set up in the House, we had very little to go on, Madam Speaker, and we decided at the first two meetings that we had that we would take it in four phases. We would call for briefs from the producers; next was the processors and the 1 abour in the meat distribution; public markets and transportation; then the fourth was retail and consumers.

As we went along we did vary that first setup in some ways. We had on our mailing list the producer groups, which were 21 in total; transportation was two railways and one trucking association, and the individual truckers, which amounted to 203; selling facilities, there were ten; processing phases, labour, two; meat packers councils, that included Swift's, Canada Packers, Burns, and at that time the Brandon Packers, there was nine; slaughter hous es 26; processors, such as sausage manufacturers, etc., and wholesalers, 25; locker plants 89.

The retail association has a membership of 1, 500 but 500 of that association handled meat in one form or another. Then there was two consumers associations that we contacted. Now I me ntion these figures in passing to say that we notified these people of every meeting that we : had right from the start to the finish, to give them a chance to hear the evidence and to sit in and to see what was going on. Now the committee held 27 meetings and some of them were two-day meetings, and we did have Professor Campbell fly from Toronto to Winnipeg to spend a full day with the commit tee, which was very valuable.

Now, Madam Speaker, I think the report should be accepted. It speaks well for itself and that's all I'll have to say at the time. MR. ALBERT VIELFAURE (La Verendrye): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Member from Lakeside, that the report of the committee be not con curred in but be referred back to the committee to consider and report on the following reso lu tion:

Whereas there has been a great deal of public discussion on the merits of the Hog Pro ducers Marketing Board in Manitoba; and

Whereas consideration is being given to the estab lishment of similar boards in the Province of Saskatchewan and Alberta, and a vote will likely be held in Saskatchewan shortly; and

Whereas there is presently a request on behalf of the farm organizations of this province for a vote on the establishment of a Hog Producers Mar ke ting Board under The Natural Products Marketing Act; therefore

be it resolved that this House request the government to instruct the Marketing Board under The Natural Products Marketing Act to proceed with a vote on the establishment of a Producers Marketing Board in the Province of Manitoba, and that the recommendation of the committee so establish a state-controlled hog marketing commission be not implemented until the results of such a vo te has been determined. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I take it that the mover of the amendment does not propose to speak on it and explain what it's all about. MR. VIELFAURE: Yes, I would. Should I now?

Thank you. The main reason -- my amendment is fairly self-explanatory -- my main reason for br inging it at this moment is that I cannot see why the government should bring in a state controlled marketing board when at this very time in all three provinces the farmers are ask ing the governments concerned to give them the opportunity to vote whether they want a board or not. I would strongly recommend the government to wait or to give these farm organiza tions the opportunity to express themselves.

And I would even go a little further and ask the government to try and establish the vote on the same day as in the neighbouring provinces. This is the main reaso� for bringing in this amendmen t at this time. MR. SHOEMAKER: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. George, that the debate .....• MADAM SPEAKER: Before the honourable member makes this motion, I would like t.o say that this is referring the motion back to a special committe and, under the rules of the House as we have it so .far, this is not allowed. Therefore, I must rule that the motion is out of order. MR.

MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I certainly would have no objection to your taking the motion under advisement if that was your decision, but I think that we're in an awkward position Page 516 February 27th, 1964.

(Mr. Molgat cont'd) •...•. here in the House. The motion was read to the House and after be ing read to the House an honourable member has spoken on it, so I think by virtue of that th at the motion has been accepted. I really don't believe that the decision can be reversed just in that way at this time. MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, it is a difficult question. It was a very long motion and I, myself, was rising to say that we should let the matter stand. I got off the track there and invited my honourable friend to speak.

I think that it might be reasonable to ask that Madam Speaker take the question under adviseme nt and have a look at it. It does run square into the proposar on the Order Paper of the Honourable Member for Lake side, and it does put us in a bit of a quandary. Perhaps it would be better if it was taken under advisement and we allow Madam Speaker to rule on it at a later date. MADAM SPEAKER: Is this agreed? I will take it under advisement then and give my rul ing at a later date. The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable the First Minister. The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MH.

MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I repeat again my thanks to the House for allowing this matter to stand. We had not really expected that we'd be in the budget debate quite this early. It is not our normal practice and I would like to comment briefly first of all on the change in procedure introduced by the government this year in the dealing with estimates and with the bu dget. I'm not sure that I agree with the First Minister in the change that he is proposing to the House, although I do admit that this appears to be the practice followed in a number of other provinoes.

In the past in this House, the Throne Speech has been the traditional verification of the .confidence of the House in the government before proceeding with any business at the beginning of a session. This was followed on the completion of the Throne Speech by the dis cussion of estimates and the government plans for the following year. When the estimates, which are the proposed spending program for the coming year, were fully discussed and passed, then we moved on to the budg�twhich was introduced by the First Minister.

The bud ge t then proceeded to outline how the government proposed to implement its plans and, once again after a thorough discussion of the plans and estimates, the House was able to decide whether it had confidence or not in the government and its procedures and allowing it to raise· th e money required to implement its program. Now under the new system we don't have that, Madam Speaker. We have two confidence moti ons at the very start of the session before the House had actually had an opportunity to discuss the government's plans in detail.

And as we're being asked at this time in the ways and means motion for the raising of the taxes before the approving of the expenditures, we are in fact being asked to give the government a blank cheque, to tell them that they can pro ceed and raise the funds before they have told the House exactly what the funds are going to be used for. I submit, Madam Speaker, that the previous procedure in this House was more consistent with proper practice.

Now in terms of words spoken, the Budget Speech that was given to us was certainly a great success; but in terms of real accomplishment, I believe that it leaves a great deal of doubt in the minds of the public of this province, doubts that can't be buried in some 65 pages of comments and statistics as given to us by the Provincial Treasurer. I believe that the people of Manitoba can take a great deal of satisfaction out of the fact that the Canadian economy has been buoyant in the last year and that this province has been able to share some of the benefits of this upsurge.

In fact, Madam Speaker, this buoyancy in the economy appears to be the only thing that has saved this government from following what has now become an annual practice of introducing new taxes. But the First Minister has left the door open. He apparently is having an open-door policy in. the field of finance as well. He mentioned that there could be increases later on.

I think it is well, Madam Speaker, to remind ourselves at this time of the record of this government in the field of ta.'i:ation, and to remind the government that they will be judged not on how much they spend but on how wise ly they administer the tax revenues of this province and how well they run our affairs. Now let's look at the record of this government in that regard. Starting in 1959 when they took office, Madam Speaker, there was a substantial amount -- some $13 million or so in the February 27th, 1964. Page 517

(Mr. Molgat cont'd) ...... Post-War Emergency Fund. That was soon used up. Very shortly after that, I think around about 1960, there were increases in fees and licences of all sorts. I don't know exactly how many million per year but it was a substantial amount, in fact noth ing that could be increased at that time was left untouched, incluciir,g fees for students writ ing exams, students attending Teachers' College and so on. Not too long after that an in crease in beer and liquor prices -- again, I don't know how many million. In 1961 the gaso li ne tax was up by three cents.

I estimate that this will bring in something like $4 million per year. In 1962 the provincial income tax was introduced, and again I estimate that this will bring in something in the order of $11 million per year. In 1963 the cigarette tax was introduced. This, according to the estimates presented to us, is going to bring in some $3. 7 million per year. Then there has been driver licences increases, park fees and oh, so ma ny, Madam Speaker, that it is impossible to have a complete list. The one that I have is only partial and I must confess that one has to guess at the figures.

At the same time as that was going on, the municipalities of this province were being forced by actions of this government to substantially increase their taxation. The figures there are clear, Madam Speaker, that since 1958, the municipalities of Manitoba and this is including school taxes, have had to increase their taxes from $56 million up to $79 mil lion in 1962 or an increase of $23 million -- almost 50 percent.

On top of all this, Madam Speaker, the heaviest tax of all, and that is the huge increase in the provincial debt, a figure that stood at over $570 million at the 31st of March, 1963 compared with some $225 million in 1958. The figures for 1963, Madam Speaker, are the ones given to us in the Public Accounts Committee on Tuesday of this week. The latter fig ures for 1958 I have ·calculated from the Public Accounts on the same basis as we had the calculation for 1963. They show more than a doubling in the past five years.

Now it is clear from these figures, Madam Speaker, that this government has imposed millions and millions of dollars of new and increased taxes on the people of Manitoba, some direct, some hidden; some we see, some we don't; but the taxpayer has been hit on most of his activities --his driving, his drinking, his smoking, his recreation in provincial parks, to say nothing of the most painful and serious of all, the increase in taxes on his home and his land. This is the record of this government, Madam Speaker, and the warnings from them still persist.

We have been warned in the budget speech that we should expect an increase in hospital ization premiums. We have been warned of a possible increase in taxation as a result of the Michener Commission Report. The Telephone System is in deficit; I suppose we can expect an increase in its rates. But, Madam Speaker, this is the record, but the most serious weakness at this point in the statement given to us in the budget is the failure of the govern me nt to clearly tell the facts of the present situation.

The budget is the time when the government sho uld expose in plain, clear terms to the public of Manitoba, the true position of the finances of our province. It should give full and complete details of its stewardship. The government should not try and juggle figures. Let's look at. the budget statements compared to impartial facts. Let's deal first of all with this matter of surplus. This government again persists in claiming a surplus in the coming year.

The Budget Speech says on Page 36 that "Information now available from the departments shows prospects for a surplus on current accounts in the 1963-64 fiscal year of about $10 million. In accordance with the established practice, this amount will be car ried forward into the next fiscal year." Now the established practice referred to here, Madam Speaker, I would point out, was a practice established by this government in 1960. It established the practice. Starting at that time, in an attempt I presume to hide deficits, this government carried forward last year's surplus into next year's income.

According to the estimates of revenue, the amounts carried forward from year to year are the following: in 1960 they carried forward $3.7 million; in 1961, $5.1 million; in 1962, $6. 5 million; 1963, $7.5 million. Similarly, the sa me estimates of revenue which are given to us here in the House would indicate that the estimated surpluses at the end of each year according to the government were: in 1960, $5. 3 million; in 1961, $3 million; in 1962, $1.9 million; in 1963, $265, 000; but we are told in the budget that this would be revised. Page 518 February 27th, 1964. I

(M r. Molgat cont'd) ..... Madam Speaker, that's the government's statement. What are the facts? The following figures that I will give are not my figures, they are not the figures of the Liberal Party; they are the figures of the Canadian Tax Foundation. This Canadian Tax Foundation is an inde pendent body. The best description of it, Madam Speaker, I think is found at the back of this bo oklet, and this particular one is "Provincial Finances, 1963." At the very back of the book, behind Page 177, there is a heading: "The Canadian Tax Foundation".

I would like to read onto the record, Madam Speaker, exactly what the Foundation is so that there will be no illusions as to the source and the accuracy of the figures that I give. "The Foundation is a non-profit, tax research organization established in 1945 by the joint ac tion of the Canadian Bar Association and the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants. Its policies and affairs are controlled by a board of governors elected annually and drawn equally from the two sponsoring professions and from all provinces.

While it is an emanation of these two professional bodies, the Foundation is not expected nor does it presume to represent their interests, but their sponsorship does provide the advantage of direct access to expert knowledge and opinion of the highest calibre. The membership of the Foundation is ma de upofboth individuals and corporations and their contributions are its sole financial sup port. The Foundation receives no financial assistance from governments. The offices of the Foundation are in Toronto, but it functions as a national organization and its studies are carried on on a Canada-wide basis.

The permanent staff now numbers 13. In addition to the permanent st aff, outside experts are engaged from time to time to carry out special studies and the Foundation carries on extensive correspondence with tax specialists in several other co untries. " Then they go on and give the role of the Foundation, Madam Speaker, which is basically to study and analyze tax structures in Canada.

I read this on the record, Madam Speaker, be cause I think it is important to understand that this is not a group sponsored by government or by any special interest group, that they are simply interested in analysis and presenting the facts. So I think that I've made it clear that this group is in an impartial and knowledgeable position. So let's see what they say about the surplus position in Manitoba. I quote now from the same book, Madam Speaker - 1963, Page 167. I see the Premier has a copy so he can follow clearly what I have to say.

There on Page 167, Madam Speaker, the heading is -- this is re ferring by the way to Manitoba finances which starts on page 165 -- and the heading is: "Deficit for 1963." "Manitoba's estimated revenue of $123.9 million in fiscal 1963 fell short of ex penditures of $155.2 million by $31.3 million. This short-fall represented 25 percent of reven ue.

In 1953 Manitoba's accounts showed a surplus of $13.4 million" -- that's in 1953 -- "Over the ten-year period revenue increased by 124 percent and expenditure by 269 percent." Then turning to the previous page, Madam Speaker, Page 166, we have Table No. 50, and here after an analysis of the accounts of the province is, at the bottom of the page, indicated sur plus or deficit, and in each column, Madam Speaker, here are the figures: for 1953, a surplus of $13.4 million; 1960, which is the next figure given here, a deficit of $27.8 million; 1961, a deficit of $32. 9 million; 1962, a deficit of $20 million; 1963, a deficit of $31. 5 million.

Mad am Speaker, could anything be clearer:? A very substantial defict every year according to the Tax Foundation, in spite of the government's claim of surpluses every year. To go on now, Madam Speaker, to the debt position. The budget in this regard says the following on Page 29: "At the close of the calendar year our outstanding obligations on ca pital accoun!::, as represented by the net debt, have actually been reduced from a year ago by about $1 million.

This has been in large measure due to two factors, the transfer of matur ing utility obligations to a guaranteed basis and the continued growth of provincial sinking funds. " Government news releases published on the 12th of February repeat the same statemen t, to be carried in all the news media of the p.rovince. Here's what that news release says. The heading, "Net Public Debt Down - Net public debt of Manitoba declined $1 million from De cember 31, 1962 to December 31, 1963 to stand at $168.4 million.

Gross debt $373. 4 million is offset by $189.8 repayable by utilities and by an increase of $6 million, to reach $21.5 million in sinking funds and other funds for general debt retirement." Those, Madam Speaker, are the statements of this government in the budget speech, in February 27th, 1964. Page 519

(Mr. Molgat cont'd) .•.... the news release. Now in fairness to the government I must say th at at least in the budget, if not in the news release, mention is made of the guaranteed debt. It is mentioned, but do we find any clear-cut statement, Madam Speaker, of the total debt 'including the guarantee? No.

There are two tables, one on Page 30 and one on Page 32, and if you carefully combine the right figures, · as the Comptroller- General did for us in the Public Accounts committee -- and this had to be done ··with some care and considerable juggling from page to page -- if you do this carefully here and combine the right figures, it is possible to get the total, but if you look at either table separately there is no clear picture, Madam Speaker.

Similarly, if you take the last page of this budget which shows this graph entitled, "P rovince of Manitoba Public Debt",. one could reasonably expect that this would be a true presentation of the total public debt of this province; but, Madam Speaker, it is not. This chart does not include the guaranteed debt of the Province of Manitoba. This, Madam Speaker, has not been made clear in the budget nor in any of the news releases. Now the Premier cannot claim, Madam Speaker, that all these types of debt should not be included.

The Fi rst Minister himself was an expert in the field of finances a few years ago when he sat on this side of the House. I have to remind him and the House and the people of Manitoba of the statement that he made in the budget speech debate here on the 25th March, 1952, and of the amendment that he moved at that time -- (interjection) -- 1952, that's correct. It's a very interesting statement, Madam Speaker, and it outlines the philosophy I presume of my honourable friend, and I quote: "But, Mr. Speaker, there is something more important than exchange rates when you come to talk about the Provincial Debt.

There is another con sideration which we should not overlook, and surely that is the size of the provincial debt. We were told the other night that last year it was 135 million; this year it will be $158 million; next year it will be $175 million, which will be the peak that we have ever aspired to in this particular connection, and we heard a lot of

definitions. We heard about gross debt; we hear about self-sustaining debt; let us be careful lest we deceive ourselves with words. What is this phrase, " self-sustaining debt"? Well, let's take an example here. The highways right now when they are covered by capital borrowing are considered to be dead weight debt. But, Mr. Speaker, if you had a Highway Commission as trey have in some parts of the world, with the right to levy the gasoline tax and that sort of thing, in other words to sell the highways, they would come to this government and borrow funds.

We would lend them the funds and they could sell the highways to the public and pay us back the interest on our money and we would call that self-sustaining debt. " The speaker, the present Premier, carries on: "That is precisely the procedure that takes place when you authorize the Telephone System to have a monopoly on phones in this province or the Power Commission to have a monopoly on power in this province. You could call any thing self-sustaining debt provided you balance and define your terms nicely. We know what happens in hard times.

Whether you call them self-sustaining debts or dead weight or what ever you call it, the people do not use the roads; the people who don't use them take out their te lephones, as we have seen them do; they economize on electric light. Some of these self sustaining debts may require a prop or two before we are through." The present Premier carries on, Madam Speaker, and says: "There is a funny thing about. debt, Mr.

Speaker, no matter what you call it, you still have to pay it back, and I say that we should regard this steady increase in the gross total of the debt of this province with some concern." Madam Speaker, that was Mr. Roblin speaking in 1952.

The following is the amendment that he moved at that time, Madam Speaker, as an amend ment to the budget speech, and his amendment read as follows: "That this House regrets that the government has fail!ld to propose measures adequate to reverse our adverse population trend and has failed to display that economy in internal administration that they preach to municipalities, while at the same time are increasing the provincial debt of Manitoba to an all-time high of $175 million as estimated by the Provincial Treasurer as of March 31, 1953." Well that was 1953, Madam Speaker.

Yesterday, or rather on Tuesday of this week, Madam Speaker, we we11e dealing with the figures for the 31st March, 1963. My honourable friend was showing great concern of 175 million in 1953; the figures given to us the other day by the Comptroller-General indicate that we are nc,w at $570 million. Page 520 February 27th, 1964.

(M r. Molgat cont'd) .••. Le t 's have a look then, Madam Speaker, at the facts of the situation as they are now. The Comptroller-General told us on Tuesday of this week that the total guaranteed and direct, less sinking funds was $570 million; that in addition to this there is another figure of some $25 million of bonds of the utilities presently held by the government. According to the tables in the budget speech on Pages 30 and 32, if you total the right figures you find, Madam Speaker, that at the 31st December, 1963? the total debt, less sinking funds had risen to approximately $610 million.

In the period of nine months therefore, Madam Speaker, from th e 31st March 1963 until the 31st of December we have had an increase of some $40 million in the debt of this province, and this government claims in its budget speech, and spreads news releases all over the province saying that there has been a decrease in the debt of $1 million. Madam Speaker, let's turn again to the impartial opinion of the Canadian Tax Foi.mdation in its 1963 report. I refer the Premier to Page 26, Table 14. I'm sorry I have been unable to supply all members of the House with this most illuminating document.

In fact after read ing it, Madam Speaker, I can well believe that they needn't put in the back here when t,hey say that the Foundation received no financial assistance from government? I'rri sure they'd receive none from this one. So Table 14, Page 26, shows that, today, Manitoba has the du bious distinction of having the biggest per capita debt of any province in Canada.

The Prem ier stated, Madam Speaker, that whether its direct or indirect it's all debt and it must be paid, and I agree with him and when you combine the per capita direct debt and the per capita indirect debt for every province in Canada, Madam Speaker, this table shows clearly the re sults. Manitoba is at the top with $530 of debt for every man, woman and child in this pro vince.

The next to us is the Province of Ontario with $526; Saskatchewan, $486; New Bnms wick, $441; British Columbia, $400; -- and we hear so much about the tremendous debt of British Columbia; Nova Scotia, $381; Prince Edward Island, $347; Newfoundland, $267; Quebec, $248; Albert, $166; but Manitoba, Madam Speaker, at the very top with $530 per head.

In the year 1952, Madam Speaker, when the First Minister was so distressed about the situation, when he was givingthe.Speech I read back to him a few moments ago, when he wa s moving amendments decrying the debt of $175 million, do you know what the per capita debt in Manitoba was then? -- $177.00. It's gone up from $177 to $530.00. According to these latest figures, Madam Speaker, this is the province with the highest per capita debt in Canada. Now I ask you in all fairness, Madam Speaker, does the budget presented by the First Minister in this House last week reveal the true financial position of Manitoba?

Does it give to the people of Manitoba the proper facts of the situation? These are the facts, Madam Speaker, from an impartial body -- not my facts -- the facts of an impartial group of specialists in the field of taxation, and this is what the government should be telling the people of Manitoba. This government is a management. We here are the board of directors, if you will. We represent all the people of Manitoba as the shareholders. I don't know of any board of direc tors or group of shareholders who would accept this kind of financial statement.

The Premier says himself in his budget speech on Page 29 that we must accept the fact that Ontario and Alberta have a very much higher level of economic wealth than we have in Manitoba. I accept that fact. It is true, and that is why the situation as revealed by the' true debt picture of this province, by the fact that we have the highest per capita debt of any province is, and must be, of real concern to us, and the government should give us those facts.

I believe, Madam Speaker, that Manitobans look forward to constant improvement in government ser vices, but we're not getting value for our money from this government. During the Thi:one Speech debate I covered some of the failures of this government in certain departments. I discussed how they had failed to act on reports such as the Willard Hospital Report, with the resulting serious shortage of hospital beds. I showed how they had failed to take advantage of generous Federal Government offers to build and operate sorely needed technical schools; how the curriculum program was behind; and on and on.

Today I would like to deal with two other departments. In the field of agriculture, the February 27th, 1964. Page 521

(M r. Molgat cont'd ) .•.•. Throne Speech said very little ; the budget speech says not much more. Mention is made of capital inve stment in agriculture. The government pretends, Madam Speaker, that there 's a large increase in the spen ding es timate s for the provision of service s to agriculture . This is not the case . The largest single increase in the es timate s for the Department of Agriculture is the Greater Winnipeg Floodway.

Surely the government does not intend that the people of this province be left with the impression that money spent on the flood way can be classified as an expenditure on agriculture. I am sure that the people who live in the Red River Valley south of here will have a hard time justifying this type of expenditure as being just for the good of agriculture . Mention is made in the Budget Speec h about wate rshed studies. I ask, Madam Spea ker, when is this government going to st op studying and start working?

There are hundreds of small water-contr ail and man-managemen t projec ts in this province on which work could be starte d -�at once. Why do we have to submit to this same routine of more studie s ye ar after year? Why are the y delaying and failing to act? Is it because the government has no policy? We ll it's cer tainly so, Madam Speaker, in the field of extension services in this province and my author! ty there is none othe r than the Minister of Agriculture himself. I quote , Madam Speaker, from one of these new news releases that have been developed in the past year -- the green ones.

This is one that was released on the 24th of January, 1964. In other words, barely a month ago. This is the Minister of Agriculture spea king, and he says -- speaking I belie ve to his own staff -- ye s, he's spea king to departmental personnel. He says: "Agricultural extension workers must restore in some of our farm people and nurture in others a real confidence in the industry. Over the past 20 years the province has lost 1 1/2 percent of its share of the national agricultural production. This represents the loss of $40 million annually, or $1, 000 per farm.

In te-rms of physical farm production, the province has increased it s volume output by ten percent while the Canadian average is a 23 per{lent incre ase . Only two province s have shown a lesser increase than Manitoba. In 1963 alone , hog popula- ti on dropped 17 pe rcent in Manitoba while Ontario farmers increased the ir hog numbers by the same pe rcentage. This is a loss we are not going to recover.

" The Ministe r continue s: "Since the Manitoba resources are not poor, relative to other provinces, and the farm people no le ss resourceful, this failure to expand equally must mean that information is just not getting through to the people .

In spite of a highly qualified staff of extension workers promoting good programs and backed by a fine research institution in the University of Manitoba, ther e still needs to be a continuing improveme nt in extension techn ique s." The Minister of Agriculture continue s: "We in the department must analyze ourselve s to see if we are truly utilizing our en ergy and efforts to the best advantage." Mr. Hutt on said: "Only by doing so can we be assured that Manitoba .agriculture becomes second to none in Canada. " That's the end of the statement, I Madam Speake r, and that' s an amazing statement.

He re we have the Minister of Agriculture telling the st aff of his department that the govern ment agricultural policy has failed to cut any ice with the farmers. He admits to his staff that the government six years in office have not only failed to produce an upswing in the prosperity of the farmer, but have actually seen a downhill slide set in -- and not way back when, Madam Speaker, -- but even last year, 1963, he admits hog production going down. What a remarkable statem ent.

The Minister then goes on to say that his department must analyze itse lf to see if it's truly utilizing it s energy and 'efforts to the best advantage. There could be no bette r way ·of cgndemning the government' s agriculture record than the w0rds of the Minister himself. I'm happy to see however, Madam Speaker, that he finally admits what we 've been trying to say for some time, that this government spends most of its time talking and dreaming -- talk, but very little action. A look at other departme nts of this government indicate s tLai laq;e sums of money are being spent.

Oh, the promotion program is rolLing ahead full stea m ; but a close scrutiny reveals that because of lack of leadershi p and a cle ar definition of what government policy is, we are failing to take advantage of the buoyant ec onomy that the Provincial Treasurer. boasts of. What about t)le Department of Industry and Comme rce , Madam Speaker? He re we have what was heralded as the shining star of the Roblin Gove rnment. This was the department that was going to lead this province to new and greater things; deve lop industry; provide jobs; and Page 522 Fe bruary 27th, 1964.

(Mr. Molgat cont'd) .•.... and make Manitoba the envy of all provinces . Well if spending is the criterion of greatness and the full measure of the onward thrust, then this department has succe eded beyond the most ardent expectations of the Minister of Industry and Commerc e. He is this government's great planner. In terms of dollars spent he has been a smashing succe ss. In 1952-53 when this department was originally formed, it had 28 employees and a budget of $27, 000. 00. Jn 1963, ten years later, it had 105 employees and a budget of $1.5 million.

In terms of money spent for industrial activities the rate of increase has been even greater - from $129, 000 to $1. 1 million -- almost ten times . But what are the sobering facts, Madam Speaker? The report of the department itself shows 260 additional jobs created in this province in industry. It works out to 26 jobs per year. Dominion Bureau of Statistics figures show that the index of industrial employment for Manitoba st ood last year at only 12 points above that of 1949, and about half the national average increas e.

Now the First Minister has spoken about his government's plans to provide for the 75, 000 new jobs that will be needed by 1970. I sincerely hope that he's not depending on the Depart ment of Industry and Commerce to provide the leaders hip that is needed. The reason, Madam Speaker, that this department is failing in its objectives is due to the fact that there is appar ently no direction from the government. The governn1ent does not even know what its own policy is in industrial development, and I will give you an example of what I mean.

The Honourable Gurney Evans, Minister of Industry and Commerc e, speaking in Washing ton ---this was on the 31st of January, 1964, Madam Speaker, not a month ago yet -- he was spe aking to the Society of Industrial Realtors and he spoke in glowing terms at that time about his government's acc omplishme nts and he outlined this policy, and I quote directly from what he says : "Our industrial development policy is to provide stimulation and incentive to private enterpri se.

It is our firm conviction that the economic growth of our country depends directly upon individual entrepreneurs with risk capital undertaking the investment required and operat ing with the objectives of making a profit. Massive expenditures by government are not "under lined", not "· ..•.. " the key to our economic growth, nor can they attain the goals required . The responsibility of government is to create the appropriate business cl imate.

" The head line in the paper at that time, Madam Speaker, was "Massive Spending Not Answer", and th en we had a desc ription of the meeting that my honourable friend attend ed , Now this , Madam Speaker indicates government policy as announced by the Minister himself on the last day of January of this year. Now let's take a look at this government -- oh, not in Washington or in New Orleans, but right here in Manitoba where the policy should be carried through. And what do we find?

I re fer, Madam Speaker, to an artic le in the Winnipeg Tribune on the 11th of February, 1964, and the headline of that one is: "Government has Key to Growth ." Now this is, oh, some 11 or 12 days, Madam Speaker, after the Minister spoke -- but within two wee ks . Now this

article covers a sta tement made by Dr. Baldur Christianson, the Executive Direc tor of the Manitoba Consultative Board, a distinguished civil se rvant appointed by this government as the permanent head of the Consultative Board and charged with getting CO MEF going. Now here is the man, Madam Speaker, charged by this government under this Minister to put into effect the policies of this government presumably. Here's the man who should know what government policy is, and this is what Dr.

Christianson says, and I quote: ''Massive expenditures by the government are the key to Manitoba's economic growth." Two weeks before the Minister is saying in Washington: "Massive expenditures by government are not the key to economic growth. " Now, Madam Speaker, I can find no more damning indictment of this government for its lack of policy. I ask the government: what is their policy? Is there a policy or is there not? Is it any wonder , Madam Speaker, that the people of this province are becoming weary of high sounding phrases of pro�ction that are heard in New Orleans and Washington and no policy at home?

"Evanisms" by the dozen, but no-policy. How can you have any action? The people of Manitoba are saying, Madam Speaker, "Does this government really know what it's doing? Is this government getting full value for all the taxes it collects from us? How can they be when they don't know themselves what their policies are, and they contradict their own st ate ments ?" Can we be expected, Madam Speaker, to have confidence in a government which on the one hand continually increases taxation, in which by some of the examples I've cited today -- February 27th, 1964. Page 523

(Mr. Molgat cont'd) ...•. and these are only some of them -- fails to carry through programs that will allow the people of this province an opportunity to share in the resources that are ours?

I therefore move, Madam Speaker, that the motion be amended by striking out the words after "that" in line one and substituting the following -- this is seconded by the member for Lake side -- 11that this House regrets that while greatly increasing provincial expenditures, debt and taxes, this government has failed to produce results in any .of its programs and has wasted the taxpayers' money . 11 Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR. SCHREYER: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member for Elmwood, that the debate be adjourned.

Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried . • , • • . . . continued on next page . Page 524 February 27th, 1964. I

Jlll :R. ROBUN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Education, that Madam Speaker do now leave l:he Chair, and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. J.\IIadam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee with the Honourable Member from St. Matthews in the Chair. HON.

GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Edu·::ation) (Gimli) : ...... before we move into the curriculum, I would like to take this oppor'tunity to clear up a little confusion which resulted the other evening with respect to some of the questions which were left -·- if I may clean them up. The first one is with respect to the number of permit teachers . The Leader of the Oppos ition asked for a reconciliation of the various figures connected with permit teachers . The figures taken from the departmental records we believe to be correct. Three figLlres came out and I think they can. be explained in this fashion.

In January, '63 there were 144 people teach ing on permits . During the school year 1962-63 the number of indivi 1u als who taught on permit at one time or another was 16 0. This was the figure showing in the Annual Report on page 74. In January of 164, the number of teachers employed on permit was 229. The difference between the number on permit in January '63 and January '64 is approximately equal to the decrease in enrollment which resulted from the rising of standards at the Teachers ' College in the previous year.

The figure of 293 , which I quoted, is the figure which includes those listed for payment in one of our tables here , includes those teaching on permit and a number of others listed as "others" who were not listed at the time as having valid Manitoba certificates. Included in this group were those who came to Manitoba to teach on exchange from other countries; those who came from outside of Manitoba; and who at the time of the account were negotiating for Manitoba certificates but had not yet received them.

I think it is interesting to note that of the permit teachers who are now teaching 41 have university degrees, 32 have third year, 17 second year and 42 have a complete Grada 12 . That leaves about 97 with less than Grade 12 . However this discrepancy in the figures I think is cleared by this statement. The Leader of the Opposition also asked the numbers of teachers leaving Manitoba.

For obvious reasons we can •t tell how many teachers left Manitoba and taught elsewhere but we can give a good indicatio.n of the probable transfers from the following figures: 249 Manitoba teachers requested that a transcript of academic and professional standing be sent to Departments of Education and Universities outside Manitoba. Some of these took further professional training or academic standing but did not teach and have since returned to Manitoba. On the other hand, 222 teachers from other jurisdictions transferred their credentials to Manitoba and were issued Manitoba certificates.

It would appear there is no significant difference between the number of teachers who transferred to Manitoba to teach and the number who transferred from Manitoba to teach elsewhere . Another ques tion raised the other evening by the Leader of the Oppos ition was the question of the amounts of gralts to the affiliated colleges. I would draw his attention to the Statutes of '63 ,

Chapter l, Bill 67. In here is set out the formula by which affiliated colleges are paid grants . All these af filiated college grants are paid from interest earnings of school lands funds by authority of this Act of the Legislature. They are not included in the departmental estimates but are in a trust fund. The Leader of the NDP asked the number of Grade 12 students at affiliated colleges. The I information is avilable. The enrollments at United last year in first year were 308, and they get a $60 grant which comes to $18, 00 0. 00 I even multiplied these out for the Honour able Leader of the NDP. St.

John 's College , 75 times $60 is $4500; St. Paul's 96 times 60, $57 60. 00; Brandon 34 times 60, $2, 400 ; St. Boniface , 29 times $60 for $1 740; for a total of $3 2, 53 8. Every affiliated college apparently knew it would have no first year in '64 - the scale of grants are worked under known con1itions , that is when it was decided to extend Grade 12 as set by the University Senate , when they said Grade 12. was the minimum , they were quite cognizant in the affiliated colleges of this fact.

I think those were the questions which were asked -- I think there were two• questions asked by other me mbers which I'm trying to get information on and I will communicate with them direct ly if I may. MR. PETERS: Mr. Chairman I'd like to draw to the attention of the Minister of Education February 27th, 1964. Page 525

(Mr. Peters, cont' d) .. . a cli pping tha t I ran across in yesterday's Free Press and deals with the United States: "Two more years of school in U. S. proposed ." "V. S. Labour Secretary W. Willard Wirtz has proposed that two more years be added both to free public education in schools and to com pulsory education requirements . He offered the plan for the point of depart ure for getting poverty and unemployment out of the V. S. bl oodstrea m. Mr. Wirtz 's proposal would carry free public education through two years of college in most states and would lengthen com pulsory school age to 18 years. " Now, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to add and draw to the Minister's attention tha t I would urgently ask him to confer with the other Ministers of Education in the other provinces and confer with the federal authorities of getting a uniform curriculum right through the whole of Canada. I know th at under our statutes the age is going to be 16 next year and I would ask him to urgently take this under advisement because apparently they have studied this question a lot further than we have .

I think we should have a uniform curriculum right through all of Canada and I would urgently ask the Minister to take this under consider ation . MR. DESJARD INS: Mr. Chairman, yesterday the Hon ourable Member from Lakeside while speaJsing about the Hutterite schools, mentioned that these were private schools and the Minister then answered and the Premier shook his head, meaning "Yes, they were private schools ." I'd like to mall:e sure of this . I'd like the Minister to answer this question . I under stand these schools are public schools -- the Hutterite schools are public schools.

I'd like to know what kind of grants, if any, they are receiving for their teachers and who built th eir schools and if they are subject to same At tendance Act as anybody in Manitoba, and who inspects their schools to make sure that they follow the same curriculum as the other stLtdents in Mani toba . I thi nk that we should get mo re than tha t. Yesterday we didn't get anything on this at all. I' d like to know how many of these children have taken Grade 9. I don't think they go much past Grade 9. I understand that some of the m take Grade 9 by correspondence.

I'd like to know if the Department has a record of how many have been taking Grade 9, the Correspondence Course of Grade 9, let's say over the last 10 or 20 years. I'd like to know more about this . From ri:Jy understanding the se schools are not private schools and the Premier yesterday was waving his head indicating they were, so I'd like to have an ans-'\Ver from the Minister on this . MR. JOHNSON: I thought we were past tha t item but as a courtesy I would say to the Mem ber from St. Bonif.ace the Hutterite schools are operated as public schools under The Public Schools Act.

They are built by the school distric ts; they get regular grants, regular inspec tional staff; they are under an official trustee appointed by the province; the numbers are in the Annual Report. MR. DESJARD INS: . . .. . .. Mr. Chairman, that one of these schools they are allow ed to have their own division with only 3, 000 acres of land and their schools th erefore are built by the public the same as the other public schools in Manito ba . What is the requirement; what is the minimum acreage that they have to have before they are al�owed to be cl assified as their own division? MR.

JOHNSON: These are school districts that are formed within the colonies. I don't know of any acreage requirements. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman I have no business to interject here but for the honour able members' informat ion there is such a district and the mill rate is 322 mills. MR. C AMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, if I inadvertently gave what could be considered as incorrect informat ion yesterday, I'm sorry.

The sense in which I was suggesting that the se were private schools was tha t according to my understanding tha t even th ough they set up a school district com posed of the land th at the Hutterite Colony itself owns and support the school district-- with government grants of course -- but support that district · com pletely by the mselves, that th ey still pay taxes _to the municipalit y in addition to tha t.

It was in that sense that I was com paring the m to private schools; and I think tha t even in the case where the mill rate is more than 300, tha t the Hono:�rable Member for Brokenhead mentions , I th ink he will find that they are like ly paying the regular municipal taxes on that land -- the school taxes , (Interjection) The regular school tax , yes. MR. DESJARDINS: ....... should be clarified. Are �hey paying school taxes on their land just to th eir own school division . In other words, th ey're not paying to any other municipality but to their own sc�1ool division.

I'm not talking about the municipal tax now but the school tax . Page 526 February 27t h, 1964.

(Mr. Desjardins , cont'd) ... There is another question that I asked: Do they come under The School. .Attendance .Act? MR. JOHNSON: Yes, they come under The School .Attendance .Act. I said under The Public Schools .Act which includes The School .Attendance .Act. My understanding is they pay all regular taxes and have their own school districts . MR. DESJ.ARDINS: .... this regular tax; is that the municipal tax or the school taxes also? .Are they paying double tax -- doub,le school tax or their own money go to their own schools? This is what I would like to know.

MR: JOHNSON: I believe they are paying double taxes on their own schools. · MR. CHAIRMAN: ..... completed this ..... MR. P.AUL LEY: Mr. Chairman, the Minister was kind enough to give me an answer to a question or two that I posed to him yesterday in respect to the grant in first year university, Grade 12 .

He was kind enough-- I didn't jot down the sum total but it seems to me it is some where in the neighborhood of about 400 students that will be affected, somewhere in the neigh borhood of $42, 000. in grants -- $32 ,0 00 is it .... $'32, 000 . in grants that the university won't be rece iving for these students come the next succeeding term. He also mentioned I believe Mr.

Chairman, that he had discussed this with the Senate of the Un:iversity, they were made aware of the fact that there would be this reduction of the number of students, or at least the s·�udents for first year univers ity would not be attending at the university.

Now I would like to know from my honourable friend -- he may not have the answer but I am sure the .Attorney General would or he should, if he hasn •t -- were discussions also taken up with the public schools or any other schools as to the necessity of them making additional provisions for the retention in their schools of students in Grade 12 as we know it now, or first year university?

If there were about 400 students, I would roughly estimate that this would mean an additional 20 rooms based on 20 pupils in Grade 12 , or first year university, as being desirable -- of course naturally this means additional 20 rooms of accommodation -- and I want to kno w whether or not accompanied with the discussions with the senate were discussions also conducted with the other school districts who have to provide accommodation? MR. JOHNSON: Mr.

Chairman, two years' notice was given by the senate to the depart ment and the department in turn, gave two years ' notice to the school districts of the province - school divisions. MR. MOLG.A T: Mr . Chair man, I would like first of all to deal with the question that the Minister has answered to me in part only, which he was supposed to give me the balance of - and that was regarding the Island Lake School. I had asked him whether it was still open. He replied to me it was but I think he was to get for me the number of students -- which I don't be lieve I got. MR.

JOHNSON: I' m sorry I would be pleased to give the Honourable Leader of the Opposi tion a complete statement on that matter which I have in the office. I'm sorry, I believe there are I won't say it -- I'll double check on it. MR. CHAIRM AN: 4 (

a) passed. lVIR. MOLG.A T: Mr . Spsaker, I had hoped really that we wouldn't go into curriculum today because I must confess that I had other things that prevented me trom reading the statement made by the Minister or the statement given to us yesterday. However, I am prepared to make s,Jme general comments and I don't know if they are covered in the statement that he gave us or not. During the throne speech debate Mr. Chairman, I said certain things about curriculum. The ex-minister of education said that my accusations that the curriculum was makeshift and handled in bits and pieces were not accurate .

We ll ! would like to refer first, Mr. Chairman, to some of the statements made by the teachers in this province . They have recommended to the Minister, this is by a resolution of the Teachers Society; that the Minister establish a curriculum commission and sub-c ommission to st·udy the whole field of curriculum, and on the basis of this, to publish a comprehensive curriculum. They have requested that the personnel of commissions and sub-commissions be highly competent and be relieved of other professional responsibilities and paid equitably. The problem it seems Mr.

Chair man, in this matter of curriculum revision, is that it is done on a part-time basis by teachers who are presently teaching and they cannot February 27th, 1964. Page· 527

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd) ... devote the time to it that's required. Now the Minister said, "Well it doesn't matt er where you start; if you start at Grade 12 and work down in your curriculum revision or if you start at Grade1 and work up, there' ll ·be people compl aining." Well Mr.

Ch airman, here 's an example of the problems com ing out in the way in which the Government has proceeded with .curriculum revision, proceeding as it has with the revision of the higher grades first -- and here I'm quoting now from the magaz ine entitled "The Manitoba Teacher" which is the Society's Journal -- referring to curriculum : "The move leaves one important problem yet to be dealt with and that is the relation of the high school program to the elementary program.

Supposing for example, it is found that by the use of such metho1s as Cuisinaire the work now being done in elem entary mathe matics for Grade 8 can be com pleted by Grade 6, this would leave a two year gap between eleme ntary and hhrh school. and the answer might be in part to move some of the present high school mathP ma tics program into the eleme ntary sch ool. This in turn, would mean a revision of the high school curriculum ." Now this Mr. Chairman, it seems to me is the whole problem, that if you do it piecemeal you cannot have a curriculum that flows through the com plete system.

You do your high school first, then you have got to make fit your elementary into this program, rather than taking the whole affair and doing it as a com plete job. And this Mr. Chairm an, was oar objection. Th1s was to be done by the Government many years ago. It received the Royal Commi ssion Education Report back in 1959. This is now 1964 and to date the main revision has been the General Course . The Minister said that he would ·aave the University Entrance Course. We 11 it will be partly in apparently for the Fall of 1964 .

Now insofar as the necessity for revision, I don't think there is any argument about tha t. I'd like to quote some of the things the teachers are saying Mr. Chairman, about texts and curricul um. Here's a statement for examp le on the science text: "The Grade 10 science text is out of date to the point of being wrong on the following points as well" -- and then he lists some of the specific errors . "Over and above it being incorrect and outdated, the Grade1 0 science text also suffers from a lack of exactness.

This is explainable since it was meant for use by students approximatel y thirteen years rather than sixteen years. Why the authorities have allowed this text to rem ain in use for so long is a mystery. " Another stateme nt in the field of mathematics: "The present program in our schools is woefully ineffective and mathemat ically unsound. The main com plaint seems to center around both the teaching and the contents of the algebra course . Probably the most dam ning statement of all Mr.

Chairman -- this is made by Professor Jaenen who my honourable friends have appointed on the Commi ssion for Biculturalism, so I presume that they have respect for his ability, I certainly have -- he is an old classmate of mine -- and he says "Our present syllabus in history in Manitoba is abomi nable . It is a disgrace to our intellectual perception and I am surprised that teachers have accepted it for so long with only murmu ring. " I So Mr. Ch airman, I read these things to point out to the Minister that we didn't dream up the compl aints about his curriculum .

This is what the teachers, the people who are primarily concerned with the curriculum, this is what they are saying about it here in the Province of Manitoba. And we are saying to the Government get on with the job . Don't do it on a piece meal basis ; get a permanent com m ittee if necessary and let's get the curriculum brought up to-date and from then on we'll have plenty of work to do in keeping it revised.

We know this, because the changes in the world today me an that we will have to be working on constant revision; but the urgent thing is to get the revision done and this is what the teachers of Manitoba are say ing. MR. JOHNSON: Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to be dragging the detail of this curriculum thing through the heat of political debate time after time, but I think there is a little bit of small talk going on here in this Legislature re curriculum, because -- and I say this with all respect to the Leader of the Opposition Party -- the reason I held up this curriculum thing, and I know he is terribly busy and we all are, and I don't want to delay or extend the issue beyond saying this: that I have made it my business to try and understand the tremendous amount of activity that has been going on in the department since 1960 with respect to curriculum revision, and frankly in the time tha.t I have had to try and absorb what has been going on, I can hardly imagine the extent of activity since 1960.

It has been tre mendous and I think probably I am partly to blame under Ministers Salaries for not getting across clearly to the commi ttee the extent to which the governm ent, the department rather, the governm ent, have involved the Page 528 Feb ruary 27t h, 1964.

I I � (Mr. ;rohnson, cont'd) ... teaching fraternity of Manitoba, the university people and everyone acknowledgeable in curriculum content over this period of time. And to give the honourable members of the committee just some id·�a of the scope and the amount of work that goes into each subject that is considered, I passed around this book. Now as I said when I passed it around, it is more or less to give you in the Legislature an idea, a bird's eye view, of what is seen through the Minister's eye when one approaches the subject of curriculum . This is a field for the professional.

I think the Leader of the Oppos ition can take tremendous heart to realize that only $12, 620 was spent on this in 1957, in curriculum development. In these estimates $173, 000 is being spent, Mr. Chair man, in the coming year on curriculum develop ment. From a: staff of two we are coming to a director, full-time consultant, assistant direc tor, research assistant and general staff .. It provides for time to pay for substitute teachers , to pay the school divisions for those teachers they take into semina':'s for two to three weeks in the year for these courses, to look at them.

It pays for travelling expenses and so on; and it pays fees and wages for consultants who are brought in to be consulted in specific subjects. A great deal, a massive amount of activity has been going on. I further determined -- and I would like to explain this to the committee because I think it will help you in grasping an idea of just what we're up against. In addition to this one should realize there's a beginning and an end to everything.

One has to start somewhere when one is revising something, and my under standing, and I think it is just as logical an argument, and I'm sure that if you had started at Gradel and· worked up towards Grade 12, it would have been, in my humble opinion, not as effective as the course of action that has been followed. The whole reason for not setting up some sort of commission was because the department, the government felt they had to involve as many teachers as possible in curriculum development.

At present there are over 170 teachers on various committees, and they expect this figJ.tre will be almost double in a year. Arrangements have been made for teachers , as we said, to be released for full-time day meetings with substitutes paid out of this appropriation. To release teachers full-time for curriculum development I think would mean the involvement of fewer teachers . To take 170 teachers out of the classroom for one year I am sure would be most disturbing to the schools -- these are top people in their fields. The pattern in other provinces is the same as here .

They haven't done this anywhere else -- that is, they haven't formed commissions or central committees and brought about centralization in the hands of a few. I t hink it has been proper to attack it the way they have , by means of seminars, curriculum committees involving so many teachers , Manitoba people and consultants in these courses. They have to carry on continuing research at some seminars and to keep the thread going and thH ac tivity at a high level, this three time consultant attached to the Director of Curricula have carried this forward -- a continuing sort of out-going secretariat.

There's a big danger of full-time people I would say in curriculum development, and I'm sure if we did this the Leader of the Oppos ition I think would properly say this is centralization, or the critics may say that -- and I think they would have a point. I say to myself, "Surely there's enough centralization now; let's not have more of this." I think the whole basis is we must involve as many teachers as possible.

I think, too, the other reason I distributed this curriculum development material here was to say to the members of the House, that this more or less indicates the procedure that went through beginning in the summer of '60 in the development of the general course where a seminar was held for two or three weeks ; where the curricula committee was set up and the general outline of their activities decided upon; where following that courses were put in on a pilot basis; consultation was held with other provinces across Canada; in individual subjects consultants were brought in; the process continued involving all these committee meetings; all these indi viduals; all these people with a contribution to make .

And they have completed the content of the general course. The Grade 10 and 11 syllabus is in a program of studies; it has been published and this report more or less says this year the content of the Grad3 12 general course outline has been completed. The work on curriculum development was completed first with respect to the general course -- and why? Why did they start with the general course ? Because the first concern when they sat down to discuss curriculum was what to do with the non-matricula ?

This was their first concern at that time -- the emphasis on non-matriculates at that time -- February 27th, 1964. Page 52 9

(Mr . Johnson, cont'd) ... apparently no adequate provision was being made. They felt that the general course area was the most immediate need of the many immediate needs at that time because there was no provision for this kind of pupil. They felt to meet the interest and ability of this kind of student that this was the reason they should approach this . In the meantime as this report indicates, certain studies did go ahead, such as a music syllabus for elementary grades was completed some time back. Physical education was pro ceeded with and a syllabus outlined on the committee me thod.

Then they had the big seminar last summer at the beginning of the university entrance course, where pilot projects are going in this fall in '64 -- but where already over the past year certain scientific subjects have been entered on a trial basis into our school system. The very fa·::Jt that everything went so smoothly and went ahead so well with s:.�ch major changes in the revision of the general course , determined the course of actim With respect to the uni versity entrance . And again the same seminars will be held this summer with respect to the elementary course.

Recommendations re subjects such as Francais, conversational French, arithmetic, health, music, physical education -- these elementary committees exist; they have made certain recommendations and done a certain amount of work. A Curricut'um committee is studying the possibility of providing a conversational French course commencing Grade 1 and I am advised at the last meeting they recommended a program of such covering Grade 2 and 3 and are in the process of developing an outline for Grade 1. So activity is going forward now.

Not only has the general course pretty well been com pleted; and not only are we going ahead full steam on the university entrance course, but work has been going on and will continue to go forward on ele mentary; and in addition to this a ter minal course is going ahead with a seminar again this summer. For years, as I understand it, there has been provision for the old high school leaving course in our schools -- as I understand it the nature of the content of that course was left up to the principal of the school.

The department were aware of these courses and the patterns of such courses were well known and approved by the department -- apparently teachers can spot these students some times early in the ir careers -- Grades 7 or 8 -- and a number of divisions on that basis were making provisions for terminal courses, some starting in the junior high grades and before that.

And as the strengthening and revision of the high school content through the general university entrance courses has been going on, the department have been aware that there would still be a body of students for whom the standard courses do not make adequate provision, and last summer a committee of inspectors were named to study the present terminal courses here and elsewhere in other provinces and their report and recommendations were sent to the Advisory Board. In addition, provision is made in the estimates here for a seminar to be held to begin the planning of the new terminal course .

So here we have in general terms -- what I'm trying to say to the committee , Mr . Chairman, is that not only has this activity been going forward not only on one front but really on all fronts. I think we can be very pleased that we are getting a tremendous involvement of our local people and educators.

I don't think that I as the Minister or members of the committee can ..... debate except in very general terms the professional opinions as to why certain texts are picked and so on, but I again say that in tabling this I just wanted to let you see how decentralized an operation this was, and how it was a sincere attempt, as I !Understand it, to try and involve as many people as possible and to obviate the very very question which the Lea der of the Oppos ition has brought up. For example, saying that certain teachers object to the science text, the mathematics text.

In this bulletin on page 27 for example, it outlines the committee's work on the science general course, and the second half the problems facing the university entrance curriculum committee i.n development of science subjects for Grade ll and 12 . I think that if we only had a commission or a central committee doing this sort of thing we would have less confidence than we do when it's a broadly based group of experts in our own province who ::: an in addition to this rely upon outside consultation. I personally and quite honestly feel that this is a first-class effort in this province over the past few years.

I'm also pleased when I hear the consultants who have been brought in from the United States to sit down with our people and curriculum committees , and staff members , are most envious of the very happy relationship which exists between the university people and the Department of Education Page 530 February 27th, 1964 .

(Mr. Johnson, cont'd) ... and the teaching fraternity in this province.

And I think this very kind of activity will only shore up that feeling and enhance the confidence of the people of Manitoba in this House in our curriculum development . l' m also told , for example , that in the development of the high school courses they have interjected in the last year, from the beginning certain junior high teache rs so that as the senior courses are develop ed the advice and knowledge and background of the se people can be considered in the finalization of the more .senior courses; and th ese people in turn will form the core of the commit tees for seminar and curriculum development when it comes to the specific -subject s in th o"se grades.

For example, already within the sciences , as mentioned by the Leader of the Opposition, I understand that certain of the teachers in the junior high category have been involved in the development of the mathematics course for the more senior grades in university entrance, and they in turn are pointing out that the content of the course at the Grade 7 and 8 level will have to be changed somewhat to fit in with a course later on .

I think the very fear which the Leader of the Opposition has brought out here this afternoon as to what can happen in curriculum development is certainly more likely and prone to happen with a centralized commit tee not involving the several skills that are required in such a com plex procedure. Now, I'm talking as though I'm a professional -- I'm not. I'm merely relating that there is in these estima tes money, Mr. Chairman, to carry forward an active curricttlum develop ment program in the coming year and a continuing program, a program that will have to keep going on and on with continuing research.

I have tried to indicate to the committee through tabling some of the minutes of some of these curricula committees, how extensive this really is , and while I'm sure nothing 's perfect, and I'm sure that the work of curriculum development in th is province will never be complet ed, nonethe less , I feel that we can take much satisfaction from the area, I think criticism is welcome but I think we shouldn't prejudge too strongly the work of the commit tee without further elaboration and it certainly shou ld be my duty, Mr. Chairman, to try and enlighten the commit tee in that vein. MR. A. E.

WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): Mr. Chairman, 1 wonder if the Minister would be good enough to answer a question for me -- and I won't expect any lengthy speech on this one. But I'm often concerned, Mr .. Chairman, about examination fees. We have people today who have two and three children in education and who are trying to give them benefits of higher education, and when ex amination time rolls around I understand there is a fee after Grade ll and with two or three boys and girls going to tmiversity it could amount to say $50. 00. Now with families in the low income group this could present a problem.

I just wonder how you take care of th at, Mr. Chairman, we have provided Unsatisfied Judgment Funds for people who refuse to take out insurance, and I just wonder how we do help these people, because it would b.a a problem. MR. JOHNSON: It's a difficult problem and I'd certainly like to look at it in the coming year, Mr. Chairman. MR. PA UL LEY: Mr. Chairman I don't think tha t's good enough -- th at the Minister of Education this year will say exactly what the Minister of Education said last year.

I think the Minister of Eaucation the year before said the same thing: "I'll take a look at it. 11 I think that it's time in th is regard to stop looking at it and start doing something about it. As my honourable coll eague from Seven Oaks has pointed out, there is a hardship in many cases be cause of the fact of the set fee for taking examinations in our schools. I have had a number of parents draw the matter to my attention. Now, I want to know, and I'm sure my col league does , and the members of this committee, what happens in the case where they simply haven't got the fee?

Are the children deprived of taking the examination? Have they got to make an appeal to the local school board to make aa appeal to the Minister of Education or possibly the Provincial Treasurer who reoeives the dollars and cents for th is ? I suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that it is simply not good enough for the Minister of Education to say "l think this is an important matter , I'll take it into consideration. 11 He stood before us all through his estimates on a dozen and one different occasions and extolled the virtues of the educational system here in the Province of Manitoba , told of "How proud we are that this is a "first. 11 We in Manitoba are pleased to be able to tell the boys that come up here from the U. S.A . of our association with this group and that group and the other group." I would like to Febi:'tiary 27th, 1964. Page 531

(Mr. Paulley , cont'd) ... hear from the Minister of a "first" in looking after the children of those less fortunate in the Province of Manitoba in order that their education may be en- hanced and the m not deprived -- as I'm sure some of the m are -- of the opportunity of taking ·e xam inations as the result of the imposition of the exam ination fee imposed by your government. MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Chairman I want to tell my honourable friend that I was Minister of Welfare in this province (interjection) Just a minute you are talking as though I'm a hard headed old means tester or somet hing, Mr. Chairman.

I'm just trying to say to my honourable friend that in the Department of Welfare at any time in cases where it was un der the provin cial jurisdiction where it was shown that the person was on social allo wance, for example, and there was any hardship at all in mee ting the exam ination costs of the children of these people, this was attended to. Within the department, as far as I can determine, the cost of exam ina tions is high; the fees have gone up due to the increase over the years. There is no provision here except that.

I'm certain that in any particular case where an individual could not pay the fees required to write the examination, if it was referred to the Minister's office I'm certain every mea sure would be taken to, as far as I'm concerned, to see to it that was met. Other than that there is no change in policy, Mr. Chairman, insofar as the examination fees for the high school examinations are concerned at this particular time.

However, in cases of individual hardship , in reviewing the ma terial at estim ate time it was my understanding that on very few occasions have instances been brought to the Department of Education's attention -- that is, cases of individual hardsh ip. But with a family of my own I realize that these $15. 00 to write a com plete set of Grade 12 e:m mination papers with some people can be a hardship. I don't know anything mo re than that at this time. I'd be glad to find out what the experience has been in the past.

I quite agree with the Leader of the NDP that it would be my hope that no child was deprived of writing exam inations because of the lack of the necessary finances. I know that insofar as the province's direct responsibilities were concerned this need was met. That is really all I can say at this time. When I say that I'm taking it under advisement I'm not treating it lightly. I realize the very point the honourable member makes. I will take it under advisement and I will have a look at it in the com ing year. MR. WRIGHT: Mr. Chairman I believe the Minister when he says he is interested.

I'm just wondering though whether any instructions have gone out to the principals of the schools setting out any steps that could be taken should a situation like this arise. MR. PAULLEY: .. .. . the very point, Mr. Chairman. Now my honourable friend when he first darted up there with his -- it's a good job that it was just his finger and not somet hing clutched in the palm of his hand or the Leader of the New Dem ocratic Party ma y be hors de combat.

When my hon�urable friend started out he reverted back a few years to the days when he was the Minister of Welfare and come up with the question of mea ns test and needs tests - and he was right, I think, when he was talking about The Social Al lowances Act and Welfare, of people who are under the needs test -- still a mean test -- whose children may be provided for, but I want to say to the Minister that the people that I have in mind aren't people who are on social allowances and social welfare. People, as my coll eague from Seven Oaks has said, that are finding it difficult.

Now here we have a great educational system in the Province of Manitoba and we share to a considerable degree in pride that we supply free textbooks to our students up to Grade 12. We supply the m with free accomm odation, outside of course of the fact that we pay taxes, but generally it is conceded that it is free education up to the level of Grade 12, free textbooks. And having done this, supplied the children with these facilities, in effect at the present time we are depriving many of the m or placing an unjust burden on the m for their educational fees.

Now I'd like to make a suggestion to my Honourable Friend the Minister of Eaucation. This ma tter has been discussed in the past; I just want to make a suggestion to him as to a solution.

I don't know if he'll be able to get the Provincial Treasurer to go along with this or not, but I ma ke this suggestion that he write to all of those concerned with accepting the fees for writing exam inations and say to the m that if a student comes to you to take the examination -- I'm thinking particularly of principals of schools and school teachers -- that if any student indicates to you or you· are aware ·that it will be an imposition or a financial burden on the family to take the exam ination, you are given the authority to allow the m to write the examinations without Page 532 February 27th, 1964. I •

l (Mr. Paulley, cont1d) ... the payment of a fee. It is just as sim ple as that. So my honourable friend says he is going to look into the matter . I suggest to him that he doesn't have to look into the ma tter any further, he's got some sage advice from this side of the Ho:J.se as to how at least this problem can be overcome. MR. CHAIRMAN: .. ... . passed. TIIIR.

FROE SE: I haven't had a chance to look through the booklet we were given the other day, the initial report on the work done by the various comm ittees, but la m interested in the one found on page 54 and 55 dealing with the German university entrance course and the com mittee set up to deal with this particular matter. I wonder whether the Minister could tell us whether these comm ittees that. are set up to do the various jobs, whether they will have re presentation rr.ade to them by people who have somet h ing of particular interest to them on these various subjects.

I also find that for instance on page 55 dealing with the ma tter of language instruction and dealing with the instruction of German the question when to begin this instruc tion in schoo l. Personally I feel that this should start at a very early age because at that time the pLlpil can learn a language withont any difficulty. I feel that German should be started at the Grade 1 level like French and any other language. Also I think the desirability of having oral language taught and used in the school at that particular time would be of great advantage.

On the following page they refer to "curriculum mu.:;t be planned for Grade 7 to 12, inclu sive. " Does this mean that we exclude a course for Grades 1 to 6 inclusive? I feel that a full course should be planned from Grade 1 and on including Grade 7 to 12. I note that they are co-ope rating with the com m ittee in B. C. set up for a sim ilar purpose and I expect much good will come out of this . I wonder if the Minister could give me advice on this? MR. JOHN SON: I will take it under advisement, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Chairman with respect to the last speaker, it says here there are no plans at the present time for the intro duction of this subject in Grade 1 but I will take this mat ter under advisement. MR. CAMPBELL: I have to confess that I am one of the mem bers of the House who is willing to admit that he hasn't too much to do and I have had some time to read the ma terial that the Honourable the Minister gave us yesterday to take as homew ork. I took him serio:.1sly and took it home with me and have thu mbed through it a couple of times. I can't pretend that I have read it com pletel y but I have glanced at most of it.

I can certainly see that there is a tremendous number of teachers taking a lot of interest in this work. I would agree with the Minister that would seem to be the logical way to tackle it, but up to date the most of them seem to be saying that the courses will not be ready until such and such a time. I presume that's what the Minister has been tell ing us, that most of these are going to come in in 164, ·o r even as late as '65.

Now one in particular I was looking at -- I was most interested in the university entrance course -- but one that I paid considerable attention to was the physical education, because later on there will be in one of the departments com ing up th is question of the annual vote that we now have before the House of the physical fitness program. There has been a great deal of attention paid to this in recent years and so I was interested to see what the schools were doing about it, and I found that there were two different comm ittees . .

I know very few of the people that are mentioned here but there is a senior -- I shouldn 't call it a senior comm ittee, but there is a com m ittee dealing with the senior grades -- it's mentioned on page 72 -- the grades 8 to 7 and 9, and then a little later apparently the same com m ittee dealt vli.th the drafting of a program for 9 to 12. Each co mm ittee member was assigned a spec ific activity area to develop the content and they divided the work as would seem to be reasonable.

But on page 74 we find that they reached the stage in May 162 of where the com m it tee had been divided into two sub-com mittees -- one to act as an editorial staff and the other as a technical staff -- and the course was then,published in its tentative form to be instituted in the fall term of '63. I read on though and find that they are going to make that as an experi mental one -- provisional outline will be issued in its final form by 164. A som ewhat sim ilar report is given regarding the physical education in Grades 1 to 6.

There again they mention "There did appear," -- this is on page 117 -- "There did appear to be general agree ment that regulations regarding the time allotment and program enforceme nt be strengthened to ensure that the daily twenty minutes of physical education be required. " Is this a usual requirement? What la m interested in is, how do we tie the school work into this whole overall general February 27th , 1964. Page 533

(Mr. Camp bell, cont'd) ... question of physical fitness? Much attention is being paid to this question these times and I know that it is custo mary to quote statistics about how the call-ups for bo th Canadian Military Training and United States Military Training have shown tha t the physical standard is nothing like what it should be -- it's tremendously low. Is the reason partly because of some thing that is lacking in the schools?

I don't want to appear to be always harping back to the old times, but in my day I think that mo st of us seemed to get enough physical activity in U1e natural course of events -- I might almost say, "enforced course" of events to be at least physically active a lot of the time. What's gone wrong tha t we need all of this attention paid to physical fitness? Is the school doing a good job? I don't know. I'm interested in the subject and I'm not asking these questions to emba rrass the Minister -- he can at any time later ma ke his reply -- but I would suggest that a good care ful look be taken at this matter.

I notice that according to this report that a lady is the phy sical instructor in Seven Oaks School Division. I notice that in quite a few areas a lady is the physical instructor. A great many districts seem to have someo ne working in this capacity. Are they really acco mp lishing the results? I pass by the high school grounds and I see the -- speaking of junior high and senior high - I see different classes of youngsters out playing games of one kind and another, practising for track and field events.

I think all of these things are good, real good, and I would gladly have e.scaped from the arduous duties of my mathematics, and history, and spelling and some of those things when I was a boy in school to have snuck out and played some gam es, or got ready for track and field work. But surely if that's the ma in thing that we're doing in these times, it doesn't take very high-priced help to do that kind of thing. Is there somet hing new that the ex perts know about, or is it just the fact that the good old days are gone when we got a lot of activity as a natural course of events?

Now if there is any progress really being made in this I would be glad to hear it, but I am quite willing to leave the further discussion of this item until the physical fitness program comes up. I gather it's in the Depar tment of Welfare , is it? J 'm giving notice that maybe the Minister of Education could contribute to the discussion at that time . MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 27 passed. Department VI. MR. JOHNSON: Mr.

Chairman, just before we leave education I, with consent of the whips, I have arranged with your permission, and I hope yOLl will be able to come, for all of the memb ers of the House to come out to the Manito'Ja Institute of Technology for supper imme diately following the House rising at 5:30 on Monday next, that's the 2nd. As soon as the House rlses , we'll have a bus at the front door, take all of the mem bers out, have them down to supper by six.

It's a huge building to see and it was thought best for the memb ers to be able to walk around when it isn't crowded during the day with students , and have a look at just the physical layout of the plant. The rest of the week will be set aside as an open house and during that week if there are any memb ers who would like conducted tours of any particular aspect of the work, or to go into anything in greater detail, the department would be pleased to take on an instructor or some one to take you around. Now I'm hoping that this will be confirmed either Monday or Tuesday, either day -- Interjection -- oh !

Well the whip cleared Monday earlier. I'll have to announce this again tom orrow but I would hope that we will have it either Monday or Tuesday then. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Cha irman, I' d like to say on behalf of our group that we appreciate the invitation of the Minister because I think this is a perfectly proper activity for the memb ers of the House to engage in.

We have been showing a good deal of interest in the vocational training and this is -- I have not had the opportunity yet of visiting it, but I'm sure it is an up-to-date and mo dern building and I think it's .well· worthwhile that we should go and see it, so I appreciate the invitati.on of the Honourable Minister . I think the most of us are planning to go. Just with my usual caution I want to check once again -- there is no cha rge for the meal? MR. JOHNSON: If there was -- no, there will not be -- I would. take you as a guest sir. MR. CAMPBE LL: I made my acceptance conditional. MR.

CHAIRMAN: We spent a long time the other night on this one item and sometimes I thought we were .going all over the universe but perhaps the safety valve or the fence some might think was the Minister's salary because someo ne said, "Isn't so and so out of order?" Well the Minister's salary hides a mult itude of sins but tha t may have been the thing that saved Page 534 February 27th, 1964.

(Mr. Chairm an, cont'd) ... some of us from going headlong into perdition. I would like to suggest now th::tt as we take up the estimat es for Agriculture and Conservation that if anything tha t we are going to say is going to be covered by an item further on, that we reserve our contribution to the discussion until we come to that item. Pm just saying tha t because I think it will facilitate time, because I feel sure in my own mind and I may ba wrong, but I feel sure in my own mind, or I hope so, that when the Minister answers these questions he will answer the m when he comes to that item in the estimates.

I hope so. The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. JOHN P. TANCHAK (Em erson) : I think I can only discuss this under the Minister 's salary. I have to confess that I should have done it before . What I am referring to is to this Bill No. 24 and I want to discuss it as it relates to agriculture. That's why I want to bring it up at this time. I realize I shou ld have raised objection to this bill on second reading but at that time I didn't realize how seriously it would affect the farming industry as a whole, parti cularLy the livestock industry and the poultry industry.

I'm sure that most of the memb ers here will agree with me. --(Interjection) -- No, I'm just discussing the objections, how it relates to the farming industry, not the bill itself. 'Ne didn't realize how seriously it affected our industry. Most of the members will agree with me that the words, the che mical descriptions are meaningless to us -- probably our doctor friends are the only ones who could understand these words.- - (Interjection) -- Bill No. 24. The Pharm aceutical Bill.

Take for instance the word on page 1 -- it's an 18-letter word -- 1 don't know if I can pronounce it it's Bishydroxycoumarin or somet hing. Here's another one -- I think I can pronounce this one -- Dihydrostreptomycin -- a 19-letter word. And there's one here, that I don't think -- Disodiumdibrom oxymercury -- a 24-le tter word. Now these words are meaningless to most of us ; we probably know the m by their mo re com mo n trade names.

However, I took the trouble to investigate and I also discussed this with some more scientifically minded people than myself and I have come to the conclusion that this Bill is very undesirable from the standpoint of the above mentioned farming industry. There are numerous remedies that are presently used in the livestock and poultry industry which are procurable through various feed com panies, hatch eries, and even some local stores, and these we can get, all of us , the farmers can get them at a very very low cost.

Now if this bill is passed the way it is written, it will prohibit most of these remedies to be distributed throug;h these outlets as they were in the past. I didn't say all of them, but most of the m, and there are quite a few of the m -- there are some aureomycins and penicill ins and then some rem edies for Blackleg also I understand even a remedy for erysipelas, hog vaccine, even that is included. It would place the distribution of these preparations in the hands of the pharmaceu tical trade .

Now I have the highest regard for this trade, this segment of our population, but I don't think we shou ld compel our farmer friends to pay -- what shall I say -- "prescription" prices for these reme dies. And then again we'll be burdening them with that extra inconvenience -- in some areas -- of finding outlets where they could procure these remedies. I know in my own constituency there are only two -- it's about 108 miles long -- there are only two drtlgstores. They'd have to go in and procure those from the m. Now I took the trouble, I wasn't too sure, I was suspicious -- not suspicious of the govern ment.

Probably the Honourable Minister himself didn't exactly know what it implied -- I pre sume the Agricultural Mmister might have if he had the time to study it -- but I took this to the people who I thought would be interested in it and I was surprised to find that most of the m didn't even know anything about the bill, but once they read it, studied it, they right now are interested and so much so interested that they are going to raise strong objection to this bill. ... MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I could raise a point of order with my honourable friend .. MR. TANCHAK: I'm just about through.

Another minute ... ... . MR. EVANS: I think perhaps I'd like to make the point of order in any event. Surely this is most clearly another debate that is set down on the Order Paper for our consideration. That bill is still open for discussion. I don't know whether second reading has been held. If not, certainly the com m ittee stage is open and my honour able friend has every opportunity to propose changes in that bill. When he was speaking I thought perhaps he had in mind to refer merely to the subject ma tter of the bill; that it was a matter that he might wish to discuss with the February 27th, 1964. Page 535

(Mr. Evans, cont'd) .. . Minister of Agricultu

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-2-21
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 2nd hansardpdf 21.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3527ffe280fad33e9aa5a0bb7d76fa5dbc4fa56b

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