Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Wednesday, March 28, 1973 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 39

March 28, 1973 Th,e Houae met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape no. 870 NOTICES OF MOTIONS Page l - MR.W HON. J.C. CROSBIE (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I am pretty sure that I gave notice of this yesterday but I will do it again anyway. It is not on the Order Paper. I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave of the House to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Social Security Assessment Act, 1972." I think while I am at it, Hr. Speaker, I will give these notices in case I forget t01110rrow.

I give notice that I will on tomorrow Friday move that the House resolve itself into a committee to consider ways and means of raising the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. I give notice that I will on to1D0rrow Friday move that the House resolve itself into a committee to consider supply to be granted to Her Ma.1esty ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS. HON. H. A. COLLINS (Minister of Municioal Affairs aud Housing): Hr. Speaker, I have a question which would take about an half hour to answer. Is it all right to read it? Mr.

Speaker, it is an answer to Question No. 42 on the Order Paper of February 26, in the name of the hon. member for St. Barbe North. I will now proceed to read it. It will take about forty minutes. MR. CROSBIE: I have the answer to Question 90 on the Order Paper of March 1, asked by the hon.

Leader of the Opposition. ''Since March 31, 1972, what demands have the government received that have not been met as of a current date for payment of bank loans which have been guaranteed by government, showing in each case the amount of the payment made and the name of the person, firm or organization in behalf of which the loans so guaranteed were issued?" The answer is that since March 31, 1972, the government have received two demands for payment which have not been met as of a current data; Packet Atlantic Limited, $150,000, together vith interest; .3020

March 28, 1973 Tape no. 870 Page 2 Knee Fix Sportswear Limi.ted, $10,000 plus interest. MR. ROBERTS: Who? MR. CROSBIE: Knee Fix Sportswear Limi.ted. AN BON. MEMBER: {Inaudible). MR. CROSBIE: No, it was fixed before we came in. This is a guarantee granted by the previous admi.nistration which we honoured. AN HON. MEMBER: {Inaudible). _MR. CROSBIE: Mrs. Barbara Hatch, Carbonear. MR. MURPHY: Harbour Grace. MR. CROSBIE: It is for making sports jackets. Packet Atlantic, 1a a guarantee of a bank loan. HR. ROBERTS: What is the number of the question please? HR. CROSBIE: It is Question No. 90 of March 1.

Question No. 91, on the Order Paper of March 1. asked by the Leader of the Opposition: "Since March 31, 1972, what amounts have been paid by the Government on demand from the holders of its loans and guarantees to meet defaulted installments of bank loans and debentures, principal and interest, showing in each case 3tl21

March 28, 1973 Tape No. 871 NM - 1 MR. CROSBIE: the amount of the payment, the name of the person f~rm, or organization, in respect of which the loans or debentures so guaranteed were issued." The following payments have been made for issues under guarantees since March 31, 1971. Brigus Knitting Mills - $59,754.54; Corner Brook Amalgamated Regional High School - $60,414.27; B. B. Spencer Limited - $29,250.00. AN HON. MEMBER: Who? MR. CROSBIE: B. B. Spencer Limited. AN HQ.N. MEMBER: Is that the hotel in Windsor? MR. CROSBIE: The hotel in Windsor, that is right.

Deer Lake Amalgamated Regional High School - $12,322.75; Harbour Grace Recreational Centre Limited - $5,977.95; Hotel Holdings Limited - $20,279.79; Paragon Hotel Limited - $35,897.79, that is Grand Falls; Hotel Buildings Limited, that is the Holiday Inn - $956,652.89; Javelin Paper Corporation Limited - AN HON. MEMBER: The honour role is it? MR . CROSBIE: This is the honour role.

Javelin Paper Corporation Limited - $4,168,081.79; Ocean Kist Products Limited-we kissed it good-bye there - $131,410.96 and Northern Lumber Company Limited - $22,487.81, so that these are all regular ones that have been appearing every year for the last number of years.

The second part of the question is,'Since March 31, 1972, what payments other than those referred to in (1) above has the government made under guarantees in respect of bank loans and debentures showing in each case the amount of the payments made and the name of the person, firm or organization in respect of which the loans or debentur.es so guaranteed were issued?u The answer is nil, there were not any others. Question no. 92 on the Order Paper of March 1, asked by the honourable Leader of the Opposition. "What are the names 302'2

March 28, 1973 Tape No. 871 NM - 2 of those persons, firms, corporations and other organizations to whom the government or any agency, commission or corporation of the government have given financial assistance, ~ince January 1~, 1972 b7 vay of loan or guarantee of loan showing in each case: (

a) the date when said loan or guarantee of loan was granted; (

b) The rate of interest payable in respect of such loan or guarantee of loan.u This one is too long. It would take about - this is number 92. I will table this, there are twenty loans and it might be too dull to read it all, so anyway that will be tabled. Do you want me to read it? Yes, the Leader of the Opposition will read it. Question no. 94 on the Order Paper of March 1. "What is the value of demand loans advanced by Canadian chartered banks to government or any government agency, as of January 31, ahowing for each amount: (

a) the name of the bank which advanced said loan: (

b) the value of said demand loan; (

c) the interest rate applicable; (

d) the nature of any special conditions or charges applicable to the loan or applicable to its repayment?" Answer - as of January 31, 1973 there were no demand loans advanced by Canadian chartered banks to government or to any government agency over which the Department of Finance has jurisdiction. Now we do not have jurisdiction over and we have not checked, say the Workmen's Compensation Board or the Power Commission. MR. ROBERTS: Not over the Power Commission. MR. CROSBIE: No, we are only answering for the ones we are responsib~e for - NIBC and the Newfoundland Minister of Finance . MR. ROBERTS: The government are not responsible for it. 3023

March 28, 1973 Tape NO. 871 NM - 3 MR. CROSB_IE: No, no, the Department of Finance, they do not report to us. HR. ROBERTS: Oh I see. ~ROSBIE: So if the honourable gentleman wants to ask a question about one of them we will certainly answer it, for we know demand loans of the government or any of its agencies. Finance is responsible for it. Question no. 97, on the Order Paper of March 2, asked by the Leader of the Opposition, as of January 31, 1973, "What is the value of the outstanding amounts of treasury bills of government or of any government agency, showing for each treasury bill: (

a) its face value; (

b) the rate of interest applicable; (

c) the value of the treasury bill and accumulated interest as of that date; (

d) the date on which it is callable?" The total is $8.435,842.81. The interest rates are 5.25 per cent discounted and in one case it is nil, in anot~er case it is two per cent but I will table it. The rest of it is when they are due is March 15, 1972 and so on. Anyway the amount is $8,435,842.81, which is quite a low amount. Question no. 99 on the Order Paper of March 2,asked by the honourable Leader of the Opposition.

"As of January 31, 1973, what is the value of the indebtedness of the government to the Bank of Montreal in respect of any overdraft or loan account or otherwise of government with said bank?" is the way we conduct our business. Nil. Answer - nil, That MR. ROBERTS: It has been quite normal this past couple of years. MR. CROSBIE: I used to ask the que_stion and got answered nil too. "As of January 31. 1973, what is the value of the indebtedness of any agency of the government including crown corporations and commissions to the Bank of Montreal in 3024

March 28, 1973 Tape No, 871 NM - 4 respect of overdrafts or loan accounts or otherwise?k My answer - with respect to agencies including crown corporations and commissions for which the Department of Finance is responsible, the answer is nil. MAa at January 31, 1973, what is the value of the amounts owing by government or any agency of government including crown corporations re treasury bills having a term of six months or less?" Answer - with respect to agencies,including crown corporations and commissions for which the Department of Finance is responsible, the answer is $8,435,842.81.

There would be others at the Power Commission if you want to ask that question. Thenu(4) what is the indebtedness of the government or any agency of the government including crown corporations to Canadian chartered banks other than the Bank of Montreal, in respect of any overdraft or loan account?" The answer is nil with respect to any agency Finance looks after, The next answer I will just table this one, question 102. AN HON . MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: No. It is my travelling expenses. Question 102, of the Order Paper of March 5. MR, W.N. ROWE: No wonder he is just tablin~ Jt. MR.

CROSBIE~ Do you want me to read it? MR. W. N. ROWE: He has not got the face. MR. CROSBIE: Okay I will read it, I do not mind. We do not mind what we disclose. That is going to put the overdraft up. I have not got the question, I only have the answer here but the question is what travelling expenses the Minister of Finance had outside Canada and this is so good I am going to read it.

Answer - since January 18, 1972, the Minister of Finance has made four journeys to places outside Canada (1) from March 28, 1972 to April 10, 1972, visited New York, U.S.A., for signing of US bond issue and to meet with legal counsel for 3025

March 28, 1973 Tap~ No. 871 NM - 5 Canadian Javelin Limited with reference to linerboard mill project. Proceeding from New York to London, England for meetings in London with Sir Robert McAlpine and Company Limited, Wamsley& (Bury) Limited, Lazard Brothers, English Export Credit Department, Rauma-Repola·, all in connection with the takeover of the linerboard project at Stephenville by the Government of Newfoundland.

In addition, met with the fiscal agent of the province, the United Kingdom, attended closing in connection with the UK,Euro-dollar loan of that date, and held discussions with lleinwort-Benson in connection with oil refinery project at Come By Chance. Now after doing all that I am sure you are going to expect a bill of $10,000 at least. The total cost to the government for hotel accommodations, meals, ground and air transportation and other expenses was $1,847.20. MR. W. N. ROWE: Shame! MR. CROSBIE: I did not eat. The minister was accompanied on this trip to New York and London with Mr. D.

Peper, Comptroller and Deputy Minister. The total cost to the government for hotel accommodations, meals, ground and air transportation, other expenses in connection with Mr. Peper, was $1.'368.16. The reason that his was less was that I had to have a room to meet with these people in, so I had to pay for an extra room. The second - from August 22, 1972 to September 1972, the Minister visited Vancouver to attend a meeting with McMillan Bloedel Limited with reference to the linerboard mill at Stephenville. MR. ROBERTS: Vancouver? Vancouver is not outside Canada. MR.

CROSBIE: From Vancouver went to Peking to attend a 3026 ~

March 28, 1973 Tape Ho. 871 NM - 6 Canadian Intemational Trade Fair at Peking al a representative of the province. It was hard, grueling work. From Peking, the minister visited Tokyo, Japan to meet with officials of the Department of Finance of Japan, security deals in Japanese banks. This was really grueling. Alf ROS. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.. CROSBIE: I sold twelve packages of savoury in China, but the money went to the :Minister · 3027

March 28, 1973, Tape 872, PRgc I -- apb ~- CROSBIE: of Education, the former minister. AN HON. !.fD'BER: (Inaudible) ~- CROSB_~:- Security dealers and Japanese banks discussed the possible raising of loans for the province in Japan,followinp, which a loan was negotiated from the Bank of Tokyo Trust Company. From Tokyo the minister flew to London for meetings with Sir Robert McAlpine and Company Limited with reference to the linerboard mill project. The save was $2 million by the way. Changed their construction project. MR. ROBERTS: It was worth the trip. You should be going there more often in that case. MR.

CROSBIE: I cannot do it every trip. Meetings with officials of E.C.G.D. and the fiscal agents of the Government of the United Kingdom. Total cost to the govermnent for hotel accotlll!lodations, meals ground and air transportation and other expenses was $3,253.50. MR. W.N.ROWE: How much of that was in yen? MR. A.J .MURPHY: How many did you buy that day? !ffi.. CROSBIE_:_ Oh no, this was all - no meals again, the meals were free in China. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. CROSBIE: I did not put that on the account it only cost ei~ht dollars.

(3) On September 29, 1972, visitec Boston, Massachusetts, United States of America, in connect1 .on with marketin~ agreement for Labrador Linerboard Limited, had meetings with Rand-Whitney Container Corporation and International Forest Products Incorporated. Total cost to the government in connection with trip was, $246.00. The minister was accompanied on the trip by Dr. Stuart Peters, chief executive assistant to the Premier and hiR cost totallerl $246.00.

(4) From Octoh~r 19, 1972 to October 23, 1972, the minister visited Fran~furt, West CenMny in connection with German lonnn and to meet with West German Financial Syndicate. When you are in the Department of Finance you see the world. The minister also visited London, England to 302~·-

March 28, 1973, Tape 872, Page 2 -- apb meet with t1~cal a~enta of the Government of the United Kingdom. TM total coat to the ~overnment was $998.96. I also hRve a copy for them. MR. POBERTS: The minister spent a week in Frankfurt for $998.96? so~ HON. 1-'EMBERS: (Inaudible) ?AR. 'ROBERTS: The air fare alone would be seven or eir,ht hundred dollars I should think, unless the minister went cheap class. DR. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the answer to question (189) on the Order Paper of ¥arch 23, 1973, asked by the honourable member for Labrador North.

Also, to question (210) on the Order Paper of March 28, 1973, asked by the honourable member for Bonavista North. AN HON. ¥EHBER: What was the first number? DR. FARRELL: (189) and (210), Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Before commencing Orders of the Day, I would like to welcOl'le to the galleries a portion at least of the Driver Education Class of Gonzaga High School,accompanied by ¥r. Ray O'Neill, Executive of the Driver Education Association. I tru~t that your visit to the House of Assembly will be interestin~ and informative and that your stay will be very enjoyable. ORDERS OF THE DAY: !-!R. F .B .P.OWE: '1-'r.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honourable ~inister of Education. In view of the information that the minister ~ave the House yesterday, sayin~ that there were no available boilers for the Buchana School and that any boilers that were available cost in the vicinity of $30,000, I was wonderin~ if the minister knows that there are five boilers available in St. John's and they are valued not at $30,000 but at $5,000. Two of these boilers, Sir, are one and a-half million B.T.U'R each, f:l.fty horsepower boilers ••• ~.

SPEAKER: Is the honourable member makinr, a speech or is he asking a question? ~IR. F .B .ROWF: No, ¥r. Speaker, I am tryin~ to point out the fact that 3029

t-'arch 28, 1973, Tape 872, Page 3 -- ~pb the information that we got yesterday ie inconsistent with the infonnation that I have. I am askin~ the minister if he is aware that these boilers are avRilnble and I am now giving the ninister the specifications of these boilers. The two boilers, Sir, are one and a-half million B.T.U's fifty horsepower and ••• MR. MARSHALL: Point of Order. Mr. Speaker. MR. SPF.AKER: Point of Order. MR. ~APSH.ALL: Mr. Speaker, the Point of Order is that questions may be asked, but the honourable member for St.

Barbe North is prefixing his remarks with certain facts, certain statements that amount really to a speech and the giving of information or alleged information rather than askin~ the questions. :MR.. ROBERTS: Your Honour has already said that the honourable member from St. Barbe North could proceed. May he be allowed to proceed without harassment? 'MR. SPEAKER· MR. F .B.ROWE: The honourable member may continue. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am asking the honourable Minister of Education if he is aware of the fact that there are five boilers available, the two that I mentioned first and the one at one and a-quarter million B.T.U's. MR. SPEAKER: If the honourable member will permit. If he has to ask a auestion by all means. ask the question but he is not to be permitted to ask the question and give the answer at the same time. If the honourable member will ask the auestion and then resume his place. l-'R. F.B.ROWE: Thank you, ~r. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, is the honourable Minister of Education aware of the fact that the Department of Public Works and Services had this information last Thursday? ~. OTTF.Nl!EP.fF.R: -~ ---- ---- -- ~r. Speaker, perhaps I could short-circuit some of the, well not short-circuit them but give the honourable ~entlemRn perhaps more relevant 1nformat1oTI which 1s ohviously related to his 3030

March 28. 1973, Tape 872, Page 4 --.apb question by sayin~ that the minister is aware that two boilers are now I would think on their way to Grand Falls. Two were located which were presumably shipped 1.n for some construction. I am not sure what construction it was and they have been found to be suitable. They are to the best of my knowledgein•transit now to Buchan&. AN HON. :1-(EHBER: (Inaudible) MR. OTTENHEIHER: Right. So, there are two in transit now, on their way to Buchans. I am told that they should be connected by ~onday.

I would prefer to say that it would be Tuesday or Wednesday, although I certainly hope it would be ~onday because they have to be converted from s0111ething to something else and there is a fair bit of installation work to be done. There are two on their way to Buchans now and certainly should be operative by the middle of next week. It may vell be at the beginning of next week,harring unforeseen circumstances or unforeseen difficulties in gettin~ them attached,hut there are two on their way now. MR. F.B.ROWE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

What are the specifications of these boilers and are they going to be suitable for heatinp, both schools or just one of the schools? MR. OTTENHEDIF.R: Mr. Speaker, I can only answer that by saying that I understand from the engineers in the Department of Public Works that they are adeauate. They have been in touch with the school board people, the superintendent,and they know the size of the building and they tell me that they are adequate to heat the premises. Their actual technical specifications I do not know.

All I know is, the public works people have told me they are adequate and they are on their vay. ~ - F.B.R~ Adequate for both buildin~s. MR. 01TENHEIHF.R :_ Rir,ht. MR. NE>RY: ~r. Speaker, I would like to direct n question to the Minister of ~nnpower and Industrial Pelations. I would like to ask the minister if he haA yet apoloRized to the employe~s of the 3031

March 28, 1973, TApe 872, Pa~e 5 -- apb Unemployment Insurance Commission for statements he is alle~ed to have made about the incompetence of the Unemployment Insurance staff in this province? :MR. DAWE : Mr.

Speaker, when the thousands of people in this province who have been wronp.ed by the overpayments and the methods of collecting the overpayments by the Unemployment Insurance Commission, (I do not confine that to the people down on Duckworth Street, or wherever they are in Eastern Canada) when these people who have been persecuted through the methods employed by the Unemployment Insurance Commission for the recovery of these amounts, when they come in and tell me that I should apologize, those thousands, then I will l>e only too happy to apologize to them. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, is the honourable minister aware that this ie a part of the policy, a part of the system and not the fault of the incompetence of the employees at the Unemployment Insurance Commission? HR. DAWE: These people are very ri~id, they stick very close to the rules and if the rules says: "Thous shalt collect all overpayments and thou shalt employ every possible means to recover these overpayments." these people employ every means. They are inflexible, they are inhuman in applying these means and I think that that should answer your question. ~- NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I will pursue this matter later. MR.

DAWE: I hope so. I wonder if the honourable Premier would inform the House that because of the serious deterioration in labour mana~ement relations in this province, if the Premier is considerin~ replacin~ the }'inister of 1'-fanpouer and Industrial Relations,who presumably has lost the confidence of unions and employers in this province, with somebody else who is more experienced in these matters? !-'R. SPF AKER: That question is completely out of order. 303:!

March 2B, 197'3 ' Tape 873 JM - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. Premier then infom the House if the member for Uonavista South has resigned his seat yet thus allowing a by-election in that district, Sir? MR. SPEAKER: That question. to is out of order. MR. NEARY: Well, ~r. Speaker, I will try again and see if this one is in order. Are hon. members aware that the deadline for securina 1973 non-reflectorized - MR.

SPEAKER: If the hon. member will permit this question has to be directed to a particular department or to a particular minister and would appear to be _just makinr, a statement rather than asking a question. MR. NEARY: ----- Mr. Speaker, I apologize and I put the question to the hon. Ministers of Fisheries, Health, Education and Environment and Provincial Affairs. AN HON. r-iE?-'BER: Do we all answer that together now? MR. NEARY: They can either ~nswer individually, Sir, or collectively.

Are these ministers aware that the deadline for securing . 1973 non-reflectorized licence plates is Friday of this week, tomorrow, and that the ministers have not yet secured their plates. At least they are not on their cars and they should be on now, Sir. They should be settinp a ~ood example. MR. EVANS: "~r. Speaker, could I ask the hon. I.Pader of the Opposition if he is going to replace the needle in the robot for Bell Island? MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, to a point of order, I trust Your Honour will be good enough to call the gentlemen on the other side to order, as quick as you are to call them as you are to call us. That interjection was completely out of order. Even if the hon. gentleman could ask a question of me and of course he cannot at this sta~e. But I must say if Your Honour is as I am sure Your Honour is, if Your Honour is determined to enforce the rules of this llouse,I would hope Your Honour wou] d put thnt into practice 1md be as quick rm the mark on 3033

March 28; 1973 Tape R73 both sides. MR. MOORES: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker, if I could speak to it. I think the '7Uestion that was asked from this side of the House was done somewhat rapidly on that occasion

whereas on the other side it is fairly obviously that whilst the question may be out of order on occasion it is fairly normal that the member for Bell Island is usually out of order as opposed to the questions he asks. DR. FARRELL: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I would just like to inform the hon. member for - MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. member would resllllle his place. The hon. member for Bell Island had asked a question to a number of ministers which in itself may have been out of order. It was not objected to by the government side.

The member for Burgeo-LaPoile interjected, certainly out of order,and while the comment made may have been facetious it was nevertheless very much out of order and the Leader of the Opposition's point of order is well taken and accordingly the member for Burgeo-LaPoile is ruled definitely out of order. MR. NEARY: Thank you! Mr. Speaker, I will put the question ar-ain and this time I will put it to the individual ministers. When is the Minister of Fisheries ~oinp, to secure his 1973 non-reflectorized licence plates? MR. C~~.J::..~MAN: The answer to question one was yes.

The answer to question two, because I believe that is the second question, is by the deadline. MR. !-TEARY: Today. Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister of Health when the minister is r,oinr to r,et his 1973 non-reflectorized licence plates? DR. R/Jl·.'E : I will be puttinP, them on by the first of April. HR. !-IF.ARY: Well• how about the f-'!inister of Environment and Provincial Affairs? 3034 .TM - 2

March 28, 1973 Tape 873 JM - 3 MR. DAli_E: Mr. Speaker, to a point of order if you pleAaa. MR. NF.ARY: Sit down, sit down,lackey. MR. DAUE: Surely the question period is to obtain from the government side of this House information which is required by and for the interests of the people of this province in particular and certainly it does not matter a damn when any particular minister on this side is going to acquire his licence plates. MR. NEARY: Sit down, crawler. MR. HICKEY·: ~r. Speaker, may I answer that question? MR.

SPEA.~~~= The point of order itself is well taken but the method in which the hon. minister addressed himself to the point of order and one particular word in which he used is certainly unparliamentary at least in this House. MR. NEARY: Make him withdraw it. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, if I may, the word "damn" in the Bible it · is described as condemn. It means nothing more to me than conde':l.n. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform the hon. member that I wrote him this morning advising him as to when my plates will be on. MR. OTTENHEJ:MER: Mr.

Speaker, I think that that is a question of such importance and it is obviously that such thought went into it that for me to answer it on the spur of the moment would be an insult and I think it should be notice of question perhaps to go on the order paper. It might be the best place. MR. NF.ARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. t would like to ask the minister if his department is takin~ any extraordinary steps to try and resolve many of the labour disputes that are p;oin~ on i~ the province at the present time such as beefinv. up the conciliation branch of that department. 3035

March 28, 1973 Tape 873 MR. DAWE: We have all the concilia 'tion officers on geritol. I hope that will beef them up a little bit. MR. NEAR_!: There is arrogance for you, Sir. MR. DAWE: Of course, Mr. Speaker, we are concerned and perhaps much more concerned than the labour critic on the opposition side. We are very concerned with every labour dispute whether it involves hundreds of employees or whether it involves a handful, five employees 1 such as we saw at Serve-A-Car.

We are actively working on these and hopefully before this day is out we will have some more information on at least one of these wildcat situations. MR. NEARY: We do not get very much infort11ation out of Yogi Bear, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Public Works and Services has promised me now three days in a row to provide me with certain information on awarding contracts on the Carbonear Hospital to Babb Construction without calling tenders. I asked the minister two questions and he promised to get me the inforr.,ation. I wonder if the minister has the information today. MR. EARLE: Mr.

Speaker, I have been checkin~ that question. It has been asked at least four times and the last time being at five minutes to eleven last night. I know the hon. member will be extremely happy to know that I have for him the answer. The two contracts in question, one was for the smokestack and the contract amount was $189,000. So far there has been paid on that contract $51,030. The second contract was for water and sewer lines at a cost of $159,000. There has been nothiny, paid on that as yet. The smokestack is approximately thirty per cent complete and the water and sewer line excavation has started.

Due to weather conditions both projects at the mom~nt are at a standstill. JM - 4 MR. IIPTSOR: of Fisheries'! Mr. Speaker, mny I direct a question to the hon. ~inister Has the mfnfAtrr had any success in attractin~ any 303-6

March 28, 1973 Tape 873 JM - 5 private or otherwise company to operate the fish plant at Chan~e Jal ,md th iB su1!111ler? !-fll. Cl!CF.SF.IIA!J: I nm not in a position to state definitely at this time. I now there have been some negotiations going on but exactly vhat the present position is I cannot say. MR. WINSOR: No decision has been made? MR. CHEESEMAN: Not to my knowledge. MR. SPEAKF.R: Today beinr Private Members' Day we move to motion (10). MR. DOODY: If I may, I do not know if I am out of order.

I would like to ask leave of the House to revert to motions but I would like to announce another part of the winter capital works projects fund if that is in order at this present time. We have today agreed with ()ttawa to spend a total of $2,957,000 on forest management and improvement. This is an extension to the previous $4.8 million which we mentioned a few days ap.o. The labour costs are $2 million or there is an excess of $2 million, materials and equipment of some $628,000 and some other costs of $250,000. The total eligible labour forgiveness is $1,837,000.

These projects are spread around various sections of the province which are most desperately in need of forest improvement, forest thinning, construction of forest access roads, forestation or reforestation, the establishment and operation of forestry nurseries and we also have some work on the blueberry grounds of the province. Where is the hon. member for Bonavista North? He will be pleased to know that we have a considerable amount of money involved here for blueberry ground improvement and as soon as it is possible we will get these pro.1ects into operation. If any members of this hon.

House are interested in getting any further detail on it the information is available. MR. SPEAKER: Ap.ain, today bein~ Private Members' Day we move to motion (10) introduced by the nember for White nay South asking that the House direr.t the povernment to establish immediately a r.ommission of Enquiry to examine, 3037

March 28. 1973 Tape 874 PK - 1 to enquire into and to investigate all aspects of highway safety and that such col!lll1.ission of enquiry be directed to report back to the r,overnment with their findings and recommendations without undue delay. I believe at the time of adjournment on last Wednesday the member for St. Barbe North had the floor. MR. ~~ARSHALL: If I could,with leave of the honourable the member for St.

Barbe North, before we ~et to that matter,! would like to make a motion that when the House rises this afternoon it not adjourn until three o'clock tomorrow afternoon but until eleven o'clock tomorrow morning. This is necessary, Mr. Speaker, because of the fact that Your Honour has to leave the chair,under the rules,at six o'clock. So I would like to make that motion now. MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that the House at its risi ng this evening at six o'clock do adjourn until eleven o'clock tomorrow morning. Those in favour "aye". Those against "nay". Carried. The member for St. Barbe North. MR. F. B.

ROWE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the last private member's day I just started my speech in support of the resolution so ably moved by the member for White Bay South. I was ~ollowing the c01IDT1ents made by the member for St. John's East. The member for St. John's East as far as I can hear really supported the arguments put forth by the member for White Bay South but for some peculiar reason, Sir, he did not support the resolution itself. The main points that the member for St.

John's East made is that the present administration is doing everything possible to improve the safety situation on the highways in our province with the funds that they have available. He also mentioned that there were three films on ''Driver Education" and there was now a driver instruction being carried out in some of our schools. He alluded to this business of establishing a point system and he mentioned that there was probably a need for four lanes on the Trans Canada Highway. The povernment have 3038

March 28, 1973 Tape 874 PK - 2 brought in an improved inspection system for the licencing of automobiles in this province. Now, Sir, these are all p,ood suggestions really. They are good for improving safety on the highways of this province. But, Sir, they are not good argwnents against the particular resolution under consideration. I submit, Mr. Speaker, that if we were to ask ten other people for their views on highway safety in this province that we would probably get ten or fifteen completely different suggestions from each of these individuals and they would all be good suggestions.

Sir, the very need for this reAolution, the reason why thiA resolution should be supported by all honourable memhers in this Bouse is that there is a need to organize the approach or organize these suggestions, brinr, them together, consolidate all of the ideas that could come from the various sectors of this province so that we could have sort of a concerted effort to bring this to the people of Newfoundland. This resolution would do just that.

The problem is if we do not support this resolution various sectors of our province will continue to make suggestions to government, to safety councils, to school boards and this is· a disorganized approach, it is a piecemeal approach however well meaning these suggestions may be. So, Sir, the need for a concerted effort for the consolidation of all these ideas is one obvious reason why honourable memhers of this House should vote in favour of this resolution. Another important thing, Sir, is we have now a royal conunission for instance studying the situation with respect to Labrador.

Now everybody realizes the needs and the problems in Labrador. They are well documented. Many, many suggestions have heen made to rectify the situation in Labrador. Yet this administration have set up a royal commission on Labrador. The same thinr, is true or 3039

March 28, 1973 Jape 874 PK - 3 should be true for this particular resolution. There are an awful lot of suggestions that can be made by various people. We have to have this resolution passed in order to create a public awareness, in order to dramatize the situation with respect to highway safety in the province. So for those two reasons to consolidate all the suggestions and questions and ideas and to make all of the public aware,in order to dramatize the situation with respect to safety then we should have this particular resolution passed.

Now if we look at one of the comments made by the honourable member for St. John's East,he said there are three films on driver education,now heing shown I believe in some of the schools throughout the province,and I do not know whether they will be shown on televison or not. Well that is a good thing;nobody is going to argue against that. But, Sir, this is only a peashooter approach. it is only a little dent in the side of the whole problem.

With respect to the honourable member's suggestion that probably we should have a four lane Ttans Canada HiP,hway and then the honourable member goes on to criticize the federal government for probably not providing more money for roads and probably we should go after the federal government in order to get them to build a Trans Canada Highway, Sir, this is just a part of the overall strategy of all honourable members on the other side of the House. A few weeks ago we heard the Minister of Finance criticize the federal government and the very next day Mr.

John Turner hands along $24 million to this province,through a change in the equalization formula. We saw the Minister of Education a few weeks ago he criticized the federal government in some aspect of education. They should become more involved in financing education in this province. A few days later we hear the honourable Don Jameison announce4n amendment to the DRF.F. ap.reement whereby the federal government is participating to a r,reater extent in financinp, education in this province. 3040

March 28, 1973 Tape A74 PK - 4 So, Sir, this is just a part of their overall tactic. Last year it was criticizing the previous administration for the alleged mess that they left behind, now this year they switched from the previous administration to the Federal Liberal Government. Sir, this was a ridiculous ar~urnent or suggestion for the honourable member for St. John's East to make when he knows full well that there is for example still 300 miles of dirt road running from Deer Lake right up to St. Anthony on the Northwest Coast.

Certainly if the honourable member were concerned about highway safety in this province, he would certainly think that if any federal money is going to be spent for highway development in this province it should be in an area such as the Great Northern Peninsula. Sir, I will be very happy to hear and to see when the estimates come down or later in the session what good news the honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications has with respect to vhat specific proposals have been made to Ottawa for the reconstruction and the paving of the Great Northern Peninsula and other such roads in this province.

Another point that the honourable member for St. John's East mentioned was that his administration had improved the licencing system in this province. Now, Sir, again this is a very good thing and a step in the right direction. But I must also point this out. that there are certain areas of this province where this creates an extreme hardship for the people. For example, if you buy a new car on the Northwest Coast this year that car is going to be in a pretty desperate state one year later.

The people are suffering from a fair amount of unemployment in that area, as they are in certain other rural areas of our province. The cars do not last that long on these types of roads. These improved licencinp. procedure or system or inspection system creates a ~rent hardship for these types of people. 3041

March 2R, 1CJ73 Tape 871+ PK - 5 SiT, the only way that we can get around this kind of a situation 1.s to improve the actual construction and the structure of the roads themselves. Now, Sir, there are many statistics that the honourable member for White Bay South brought before the House that I am c.ertainly not going to repeat. However I just started the last day to mention the fact that the Minister of Fihance. and he can correct me if I am wrong, for some honourable 3042

March 28, 1973, Tape no. 875 Page 1 - MRW minister on the other side made a public statement a couple of months ago indicating that the economy of this province vas in tremendous ehape one year since they took over and one of the reasons that the hon. Minister of Finance I believe gave for this statement was that there had been a tremendous iocreaae in the number of sales of new automobiles in this province. I think you can confirm that.

Now, Sir, what I was trying to point out when I ended the last day was that if we look at the estimates of the Department of Transportation and Communication for last year and the year before, we see a definite decrease in the votes under certain headings. For instance for winter maintenance in 1971-1972, there was a vote of $9 million. Last year the vote was approximately $4.5 million, for winter mainteoAnce. For summer maintenance there was a decrease from $2 million dovn to - well there was a decrease of about $100,000 io auaaer maintenance.

This can only result in a greater number of soft shoulders, more wash boarding on the roads which could contribute to accidents and this sort of a thing. As far aa winter maintenance of equipment was concerned, we had a decrease last vear from the year before. As far as improvement and reconstruction of highways was concerned, we had a decrease of,a round figure of $31 million in 1971-1972 to only approximately $14 million in 1972-1973. New construction, a decrease of almost $1 million. Replacement of old bridges, a decrease of approximately $700,000.

New roads in nonincorporated areas, the vote for that was only $148,000 and it went down to $100,000. A decrease in the vote for ferry landings from $41,000 down to just $1,000. Nov, Sir, the point I am trying to make here is the fact that you have an overall decrease in the votes in these various headings. It obviously means that the highways cannot be in as good a condition as they were the year before. It is impossible.

The other important thing is that if what the Minister of Finance said is correct, we do have an increase in the number of new cars purchased in this province, presumably an increase in the number of cars. The hon. member for 3043

March 28, 1973 Tape no. 875 Page 2 White Bay South has given statistics to show that there is an increase in the number of licenced drivers and an increase in the number of new drivers, young drivers in this province.

If we do not have an increase in the Department of Highways for the purpose of road maintenance in the summer and the winter, reconstruction, bridges and this sort of a thing, if we do not have an increase in the monies made available to the Department of Highways, corresponding to the increase in the number of cars and drivers, this can only mean that it will contribute to highway hazards in this province. The maintenance could quite conceivably go down if the roads were paved.

I would like for the Minister of Justice to just tell this House how many miles of road this administration are responsible for paving since they have taken over .- a drop in the bucket. The Burin Peninsula has just a little bit.something to do with the previous administration and the Federal Government in Ottawa. Just like the construction and the paving that is taking place in the Port au Choix, Port Saunders, Hawkes Bay Area is the result of an agreement made between the previous Liberal Adminitration and the Federal Government.

Not one single agreement was established between this - as a matter of fact I am still.trying to find out what proposals this administration have made to the Federal Liberal Government for the purpose of reconstructing and paving the major highways in this province. You have had exactly fourteen months to make your proposals and we have not seen any action yet. This, Mr. Speaker, was supposed to be the "government of action." We were going to see a terrific change from the achievements of the previous administration. We have seen a tremendous change as far as highway construction is concerned certai.nly.

Now, Sir, I would like to focus the attention of the House on this whole business of school bus operations in this province, with respect to safety. This is one item that the member for White Bay South did not get into in any detail. He mentioned a tremendous amount of 3044

Karch 28, 1973 Tape no. 875 Page ) i~formation and statistics outside of this particular area. But, Sir, as everybody knows, there has been an increase in the number of students bussed in this province over the past year. As everybody aust realize, there has also been an increase in the cost of operations of these busses, l imagine the hon. member for Bay de Verde can certainly confirm this. The cost of living has gone up in practically every sector of our lives and obviously bus operations would not be exempted from this. Sir, besides that, we have had extreme winter conditions in this province.

Sir, there has not been a corresponding increase in the grants to the school boards of this province for the purpose of operating school busses. The government no longer underwrite the cost of school bus transportation in this province, the total cost. AN HON. MEMBER: A matter of a blank cheque. MR. F. B. ROWE: It is not just a matter of a blank cheque. The school boards have made this administration very aware of the amount of money that they need for the operation of the school busses in this province.

The Minister of Finance knows full well that the amount of money that the school boards are getting for this purpose at the present time is desperately inadequate. This past year there has been an increase of only $81,000 over the year before for the purpose of school bus operations in spite of the increaRed cost of operation and in spite of the increased number of students who are being bussed to school. Sir, I have been told and I am sure that the Minister of Education must have been told by school board members and chairmen that they simply do not have enough money to operate an adequate school bus system.

Now, Sir, school bus contractors nre operating school busses for only one purpose. They are operatinR to make a dollar. It is a legitimate business enterprise and if the school bus contractors simply 3045

Karch 28, 1973 Tape no. 875 Page 4 cannot get enough money from the school boards for the purpose of operating their school bueses, it is obvious what is going to happen. There are going to be cut-backs on something. There will be cut-backs on the maintenance of these busses. There will have to be if they are going to make it a lucrative operation. The only result that you can have from the inadequacy of funds for the operation of school busses, is an increase in the hazard of operating these particular school busses.

Nov, Sir, I am going to sort of ramble on with some facta,information, suggestions that have just recently come to my attention that would give some indication of the kind of suggestions and the kinds of facts that can be brought to the attention of honourable members by various sectors of our society and thereby try to indicate the need for having some organized approach such as a commission to look into this sort of thing. Sir, much of my information is coming from the Co11Samers Association of Canada.

The Consumers Association of Canada have a school bus committee established and they have made a certain amount of information available. AN HON. MEMBER: ( Inaudible). MR. ROWE (F.B.): No, the Consumers Association of Canada. I can give the honourable member the address if I can find it. 3046

March 28, 1973 Tape 876 IB-1 Do you know, Sir, that school buses are exempt from many sections of the Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Act, including those standards covering interior occupant protection. Now, I do not know whether this is so in this province and I would like for the honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications to indicate to the House whether or not this is so. In other words, the school buses really do not have to have the same protective covering on their interiors as do the private automobiles.

The Canadian Standards Association, Standard D250 relating to school buses,which prov:ldes recognized safety features is not a mandatory standard in all provinces. So, the question is whether or not it is mandatory in this province. The present Canadian Safety Association, Standard D250, specifying that the top portion of the frame of each seat except the rearmost seat shall be padded and covered, does not require that energy absorbing, closed-cell structure, slow memory foam, as required on the standard automobile on the dashboard padding be used,or that the seat back be at least twenty-eight inches high.

In other words, Sir, what this is suggesting here is that the standard of safety on the interior of a school bus with respect to the padding of the interior is not of the same standard as that required in the standard automobile. We well know the calibre of the standard of the safety of the insides of some of the standard automobiles. Sir, what we need here is standards soch as these. I do not know whether this has heen brought to the attention of the Minister of Education by anybody or by any group or to the attention of the Minister of Highways by any groups. If so, well and good.

Sir, all of these new buses operatinr in the province should be equiped according to a standard that would require types of things that I just mentioned a second ago and the same thing should be true for all school buses presently beinp, used in the provinre. 3047

March 28, 1973 Tape 876 Sir, in a letter addressed to the Newfoundland Safety Council by the Consumers Association of Canada they expressed the following feelinp,s; 11 The Consumer Association of Canada School Bus Safety Committee would like every province to have a no-standee law for school buses and the twelve or thirteen inch rump room allocated per child is not at all realistic. 11 IB-2 . ,'. · :,-:Sir, questions now rather than just facts. Do we have a system of mechanicai fitness certification in this province for school buses alone? I honestly do not know the answer to it.

Do we have a drivers screening and training programme for school bus drivers because school bus drivers are far different from other drivers in this province? Do we have school bus patrols and emergency transportation measures plans for the operations of school buses? These are the types of things that we need in this province and as I said before these are good suggestions that could have come from a Jreat many sectors in our province. We still need a commission to collate all this information, bring it together, have public awareness on it, dramatize it and get people involved.

Sir, this was some information relating really to this whole business of seating within school buses and the calibre of the design and the padding and this sort of thing on these school seats. I would like to turn my attention to the mechanical fitness of buses.

Sir, I hope that the honourable Minister of Transportatlon and Communications will he speaking on this resolution and I hope that he will be able to answer the question as to whether or not there is a mechanical fitness certifications programme for school buses and whether or not there is any kind of a driveri screening and training programme for school bus drivers. The ~inister of Education probably if he speaks to this can mention whether or not there are any plans to set up school bus patrols and any kind of an 3048

March 28, 1973 Tape 876 emergency transportation measures plan for the operation of school buses in this province. As far as the mechanical fitness of school buses are concerned, Sir, in this province, it is my feeling that there IB-3 is a need to upgrade any kind of a mechanical fitness certification programme if in fact there is such a procedure in this province.

It might be an idea as well to require that when a school bus is deemea mechanically tmfit, its condition should be reported imnediately to the Department of Transportation and Communications and it should also be reported to the particular Board of Education that is using the services of that particular school bus contractor. We should also require that all mechanical work done to school buses be accompanied by a work order signed by a well qualified mechanic either in doing the work or in supervising the work on the bus, the maintenance work. It should be done on a periodic basis.

We should also require that these wurk ord~rs be kept on file for a reasonable length of time and available for inspection by the Department of Transportation and Communications. Sir, all of these suggestions are brought up by resolution of the School Safety Committee or whatever it is called of the Consumer Association of Canada. Sir, one of the things that really disturbs me greatly and I have asked a number of people about this, is the actual qualifications of the drivers of the school buses in this province.

Now, Sir, I know full well that school bus drivers in this province are doing everything that they possibly can to provide a reasonable service to the students going to the .schools in the var1 ous :1reas of our province but it is still incumbent upon the government to establish some sort of a policy whereby you can have at least a certain minimum standard for bus driver qualificDtions in this province. Driver qualifications, their training and their performance are in need of 3049

March 28, 1973 Tape 876 IB-4 uniform standards and guide lines throughout this province. Nobody can tell me that the standards are equivalent from one end of this province to the other nor from one province to the other. Probably we should ask for character references. Driving and criminal records should be a mandatory part of hiring and licensing school bus drivers in this province.

Defensive driving and first aid courses with periodic refresher courses probably should be mandatory, We should have a basic, practical instruction and this should be given to indicate to the drivers how they can maintain student discipline aboard the buses. The honourable member for Port de Grave in a speech a few weeks ago certain!~- indicated to this House the many problems that he had with respect to dicipline aboard school buses. This cannot help contribute to school bus safety as far as .the students are concerned in this province.

Sir, probably we should require mandatory attendance at safety meetings, at school b 1s seminars sponsored by the Department of Education or the Department of Transportation and Communications. Probably we should require actual road testing coupled with written tests each time the license is renewed and we should have renewal of licenses for school bus operators. Sir, these are the types of suggestions that have undoubtedly been made 3050

March 28, 1973 Tape no. 877 Page 1 - MRW and certainly if we had a commission set up to travel throughout this province, we could get many motifications,many other suggestions to these types of things. Sir, severe weather conditions are certainly a common aspect of school bus operation in this province. The fact that a school is open should not justify risking the safety of students being sent to a particular school and I think of this particularly in terms of my own district of St.

Barbe North where many a night we have had students staying in the school overnight, where many a day ve have had busses being stuck in snow drifts for three, four, five or six hours waiting for a grader or a snow blower to come along to pull them out. Sir, some special consideration has to be given to the severe weather coniditions that exist in this province with respect to the operation of school busses. We should not just think of safety aboard a bus or safety on the highways itself but what is related to it.

There are many communities or areas in this province where we have school busses operating, where students live on community roads and the main highway may be open; the school bus many operate on the main road but what happens, the students get picked up at the end of the community road because that has not been plowed.

They would have to walk a mile or two in severe weather conditions to get picked up, hoping that the bus will be there and then get dropped off in the darkness of night or later afternoon and have to crawl their way back over unplowed community roads, Sir, this may not sound very serious but some consideration should be given with respect to finding oat exactly what the proble1118 are with respect to safety in this province.

We should have a very serious look at the establishment or the installation of two-way radio or two-way radio system of some kind or telephone systems in school busses, in order to inform parents of the whereabouts of busses and this type of a thing. Now I saw a resolution,in fact a Newfoundland Teachers' Association Resolution that is likely to come up suggesting that we should 3051

Karch 28, 1973 Tape no. 877 Page 2 have some audio-visual installations in the school busses to educate the students on those long runs back and forth to schools. I think probably that we should first give some consideration to this whole business of establishing two-way radios or some sort of a telephone system in school busses in places like Labrador South, in places like the Great Northern Peninsula so that we can cut down on the hazards as far as the transportation of students is concerned.

Sir, to get back to the maintenance of student discipline for one moment, the Huron First County Roman Catholic Separate School Board suggests that the drivers should know the principle of pupil psychology,no less,so that they can stop the trouble or eliminate the trouble before it actually begins. Now this might sound a little bit way out but the fact of the matter is is that discipline on school busses is probably one of_the biggest problems confronting school bus drivers ~oday.

If the drivers can get some sort of rudimentary training with respect to - not disciplining a bunch of high school students or a bunch- of elementary school students but just how to relate to them, understand the maay problems that thev might have; it would certainly cut down on the hazards as far as school bus safety is concerned in this province. Sir, I would like for the Minister of Education to indicate whether or not his department is giving any consideration at all to the establishment of safety patrols, school bus safety patrols made up of students.

The Ontario Department of Transportation has a number of bulletins out on that. I am sure the minister must have had a look at this. Now, Sir, what I am trying to get at here is this: The standards of school bus safety are certainly not uniform throughout this province nor are they uniform throughout the provinces of Canada. There are a great many suggestions. There are a great many hazards. There are a great many problems and the only way of really ascertaining the nature of all the problems and the nature of all the su~gestions 3052

Karch 28, 1973 Tape no. 877 Page 3 in all of the areas of this province is to have this coDDDission set up and hopefully have it travel around and meet with some of the school boards out in these various areas. Sir, I could go on with this whole business of child- car restraint. but I will leave it to one of my other colleagues to get into that. We have a long way to go with respect to proper and adequate standards with respect to child auto seat restraining systems.

We are often dependent upon the Americans to come across vith certain standards in this regard because most of these child auto seat restraining systems are actually produced in the United States and they were imported into Canada and consequently we sometimes in Canada have a tendency to wait for the standard to be announced sort of thing in America before we move in that direction.ourselves. Sir, another area that we could get into is this whole business of injuries to children in automobile collisions.

We can mention an awful lot of publicity which has been given to battered chjldren or children who have been ahused by their own parents. We see some of these horrible pictures in the newspapers from time to time. We hear it on television and radio news. However, very little is heard of the many injuries that young children suffer aboard their own private vehicles driven by their parents and a substantial number of these accidents occur year after year,in province after province and within this province and very little publicity is given to it. We have to give publicity to this, Sir. We have to dramatize it.

We have to bring public awareness about it. The only way to do it is to establiah this kind of a commission; to support this resolution and see whether something can be done about it. The need to inform the general public is great. Sir, I really do not have anything else to say on this. The resolution was moved most admirably by the member for White Bay South. He backed · it up with a tremendous amount of statistics. I think about the only point that I can re-emphasize here is that in spite of what the hon. member for St. John's East had to say, which seemed to me quite honestly, 3053

March 28, 1973 Tape oo. 877 Page 4 that he was going to support the resolution, I think there is a need to set up a central body to support this resolution so you can tie up all these loose ends, so you can collate all the information, so that you can consolidate it, give it proper publicity, give a certain amount of drama to it, bring it to the attention of the people of Newfoundland and io this way I think we could cut down significantly oo the highway hazards in this province. Sir, I have great pleasure in supporting this particular resolution. _MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to say a few words on this resolution because I would like to see something done about the highway safety with regard to improving highway safety i~ this province, I am ·not sure if a royal commission is the answer. We have seen IIUlllY royal commissions in the past, good reports in many cases but little action after the reports have been brought in. I have discussed this matter with a number of honourable ministers of this government and I know they are concerned with this matter.

I am sure that they are in a position to take the necessary action at least to alleviate some of the hazards on our highways today. I have been travelling back and forth over the Trans Canada Highway for the past three years,cootinuously, at least one trip per week as far as Gander or the Glovertown Area. _ There is one

section of highway between St. John's and Whitbourne which to me, oo some occasions I wonder if I am in a drag strip or if I am on the Trans Canada Highway. The questions are: Is it the fault of the drivers? Is it the fault of the construction of the highway or the design of the highway or the sigos on the highway? There is one which to me is a problem and that is the signs. The signs on the highways that we have here in Newfoundland vi.th regard to these three-lane sections 3054 ·

March 28, 1973 Tape 878 PK - 1 Of course these three lane sections are only on elevations and it is mainly I think on the

section of road between St. John's and Whitbourne. A sign that says "Slower traffic keep right" 1n my opinion is a wrong kind of a sign. Because who can define slower traffic? Is slower traffic forty miles per hour? Is it forty-five? Is it fifty? Is it fifty-five or sixty miles? We have a speed limit set at sixty miles per hour, if you drive beyond that limit you are violating the traffic act. So who can define slower traffic? Now this is causing a major prohlem.

Because if you are driving along the highway in a centre lane bet:ween here and Whitbourne and you are driving at fifty miles an hour and the driving conditions are not too comfortable, for example, it could be foggy which it usually is or it could be in the winter when there are snowy conditions and you are driving at a reasor-able rate, fifty miles an hour.and somebody behind you comes up and,maybe not so responsible a driver in some cases,and is blowing his horn and he wants to pass, co along comes an R.C.M.P. patrol car and they will stop you because you are obstructing traffic.

They can rightly so give you a ticket for obstructing traffic because you are driving,according to their standards,at Blower speeds. But if you are driving at fifty-nine miles an hour you could also get a ticket in their standards because you are also slower traffic• because you are slower than what is behind you. If the person behind you wants to pass in these three lanes, and -f.f you do not give them the ri~ht-of-way,you are slower traffic. This to me is wrong. This has created 1 think in the last couple of months 0 this

section of road hetween Hhitbourne and St. John's,the prohlem of the law enforcement officers not knowing how to regul;ite the traffic with regard to issuance of violation tic~ets. Now I myself am a witness of this through my experience. Because durinp, the past seven months I have received two tic~ets, it is not the 3~55

March 28, 1973 Tape 878 PK - 2 matter of receiving two tickets, one ticket was for driving in a middle lane.obstructing traffic,driving at fifty-five miles an hour. I was found guilty. AN 'RON. MIDIBER: Found guilty? P-'R. MORGAN: Yes. found guilty. Now, Mr. Speaker, the point that I am going to make is that I was found guilty, a violation of traffic for driving in a centre lane and driving too slowly about three months after I was stopped by an R.C.M.P. patrol officer,again in the same

section of road.for passing on an inside lane,doing fifty-five miles an hour. This is going on every day. The R.C.M.P. officers are not fully aware of what to do in a sit~ation, whether it is a violation to pass on the inside lane or whether it is a violation to obstruct traffic in the centre lane. Now this is a very, very serious problem. Of course, if it is allowed to continue what is going to happen is that we are going to see more and more accidents l•n the sections were the slow lane joins the centre lane.

So one recommendation I have and I would like to see it carried out as soon as possihle in this province and that is these signs be torn do'l'7tl. They are the wrong kind of signs. The signs should not read 'Slower traffic keep to the right". The signs should read ''Keep right except to pass." It is the proper kind of a sign; it is in other province. There is no reason to have a different kind of a sign here. especially when the sign is going to cause accidents.

So in this case we are looking at three possible causes of accidents, the driver, the construction of the highway or the signs and in thi!'I case we will blame the signs on these sections of road where we see three lanea,from St. John's to Whithourne. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would 11~~ to Rpeak also for a few minute9 on the cases where the driver3 are to hlarne. We have many cases where the driverR are to h]ame in causinv prohlema on our hiF,hway. I am v,oin~ 3056

March 28, 1973 Tape 878 PK - 3 to make a statement here today which I feel is justified, I am going to he critical of our law enforcement officers we have to enforce the law·on the Trans Canada Highway, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, l:ecause I feel they are not doing an adequate job. They are not doing the proper job of patrolling our highways. Now on a special holiday like a Labour Day weekend or some other weekend, the 24th of May weekend. you travel back and forth the Trans Canada Highway and you will see law enforcement officers in patrol cars out in scores all over the province.

But if you travel again during Wednesday, Thursday. Friday of the following week, maybe even on the weekend again, you are lucky if you see a patrol car all the way from St. John's to Port aux Basques. What do they do? They disappeared. Mr. Speaker, the situation is serious because if the R.C.~.P. where I think their main jurisdiction is the Trans Canada Highway, with regard to traffic violations, especially in the area between St. John's to Whitbourne, my question is if they can come out in full force on weekends to try and scare the people,if you wish, the drivers into driving safely.why not do it more often?

That i~ their job. They are getting well paid for doing their job in this province. So why not at least have one or two patrol cars every weekend on the highway to make sure that some of the drivers who are driving recklesslY, and we have quite a few drivers who drive recklessly on the highway, that these people are prosecuted accordingly. These are two points. My third point I would like to make, Mr. Spea~er, and briefly and that is with regards to drivers ohtaininp. their driver's licences. Now I find a bi~ difference in a driver obtaining a driver's licence in St.

John's and a driver who ohtains a licence in a rural area. Take for example were we have P.C.M.P officers stationed say Clarenvil]e or Glovertown any of these places and the road test or inspection test u~ed by the R.C.M.P. officers in the samller areas is not near as strict as the road test used by the constabulary here in St. John's. 3057

March 28. 1973 Tape 878 PK - 4 What I am tryiny, to say ie that the people who get their licence for the first time in the rural areas are not as ~ood ~rivers as those who get their licences in the urban centres. I am a rural man, I can say this but I get criticized,but it is a fact. It is a fact. I think that there should be a ~uch stricter kind of road test when a person is receiving a driver's licence for the first time. It is a bit different if a driver has had a licence for a number of years and it has expired and he is getting a new licence and he is required to take a new test.

But I think it should not matter where a person is residing in the province he is issued the same driver's licence.and I think every procedure and every step must be taken to ensure if a person is issued a driver's licence in this province that he is definitely a knowledgeable driver knowing that the rules of the road and he has sufficient experience to handle the car properly on the highway. These are just three points and one more finalPmaybe a minor point but still important. We have inspection tests of all the cars now,before we could get them licenced, the older cars back to 1971.

Now these cars have to be all inspected, road tested before they are on the roads. That is fine. So you go into a service station who has a licenced machantc on duty and you ask him to inspect your cgr and sign a sheet to take back to the registration bureau to ~et your plates. But I have seen most of these cars already having been inspected and there is one little defect in the inspection which is a very important defect when you think about it and that is you go in and they check your lights on high beam to low beam. lf your lights work from high beam to low beam they feel it is okay.

But that is not the important factor of working from high beam to low beam, it is important sure, but the other thing which must be checked and should be checked and that is,not only if the lights work from high beam to low beam but they should also be positioned properly. Because I have seen some of these cars this year even the 1971 models that have already 3058

March 2P., 1973 Tape 878 PK - 5 been inspected and the new licence, plates on them, you will rneet them on the highway durin~ the nbht, especially when there are bad drivinv, conditions, and even when the lights are on low beam if one of the lights are out of position with the other one you could be blinded on the highway and force( off the road I have seen these kind of thinFs. 3059

March 28, 1973 ' Tape 879 One of the most import3nt thinis I think is that when you are inspectinp, the lights for night driving that these lir;hts must be properly positioned. Now these points that I have made mir,ht not sound so important but I think if steps were taken to have these thinp,s corrected that it would help alleviate some of the hazards we have today on our highways and otherwise improve hir,hway safety. Now I am sure that the hon.

Minister of Transportation and Communications is p,oing to elaborate on all the aspects where we can as a ~overnment improve the safety conditions and I feel that he is in a position to take the necessary steps to correct some of these hazards. Therefore I cannot support the resolution as it stands. Sure it is a p,ood resolution but I p,o alonp, with it except for the fact that I see no reason to appoint a royal commission. I feel our government is in a position to take the necessary action right now. Thank you! DR. FARRELL: Mr.

Speaker, in rising to speak on this resolution I would first of all like to apologize to this hon. House for my inability to attend on the 21st when the hon. member for White Bay South initiated the debate on this resolution. However, I think most of the members know that I was on the Northwest Coast waiting for some of my colleagues on the other side who were unfortunately not able to reach me to visit St. Rarbe ~orth, South and the Labrador Areas. At that time also we ran into a little difficulty with a colleague on my side who ended up in hospital and we had a little problem which prevented me from being here.

Due to me not beinp; here and Hansard not beinp, ready at this time, most of the infot"l'lation that I have received on the debate from the hon. menhcr for !'hite Ray South particularly has been obt3ined by me fron preBs reports and local reports. llf'forr. T 1,.,y nnyd1ini'. further T would lil·e to thnnk the hon. llom;e !.<';1<Jcr for pre~rntin?, so nbly the goverranent 's position 3060 JM - 1

March 28, 1973 Tape 879 on th18 rf!l'lnluttnn nnt:1 T woulcl likP tn thnnlr him nt th18 time. The hon. m~mher for St. P.arhe North, I felt that he took a very peculiar attitude in basically agreeing with many of the points brought forward by the hon. member for White Bay South and I would take that same peculiar attitude myself that I myself would a~ree with many if not all of the ideas projected by the hon. me~ber. However, as I said I did not get his debate in full detail so I cannot go into it much further than that without havinP, the Hansard - and not having been here.

However, as he stated ancl as I read in the press the statistics as presented in this resolution are horrifying, shocking and I am sure every member of this ~ouse and indeed every citizen of this province is very worried about the situation just as we all are here and particularly so in the Department of Hir,hways.

As I said already.I would agree in great part with much of the reasoninp brought forward by the hon. member and the facts he has presented. ' He did bring up a couple of points (before I get into any detail on the specific areas of the brief) on the Trans Canada Highway and these climbing lanes and signs which have been brought up by many of the speakers in this debate. I am agreeing with him here as well that I feel that perhaps when this road was being built, it was suggested here in the House and indeed by the hon. Leader of the Opposition a few evenings ago.that perhaps it is obsolete.

I am sure it is in many areas and that we need a four lane hi~hway and I aM sure we are going to try and press for that in the years ahead. I will give credit where credit is due that the past administration initiated this Trans Canada Highway and except for several portions which nePrl ~nd very badly need upp.ra<1inP. ,particularly in the Clarcnville Park 1md P11rk Gambo 3061 JM - 2

March 28, 1973 T°ape 879 Areas,on tr.e Northeastern

section and I would say White's Road Area of the West Coast through to Crabbes River or Robinsons where before anything further is done or any other expenditures on the Trans Canada Highway these two particular areas should be upgraded to the standards of the rest of the highway at the present time. Mr.

Speaker, several people have mentioned these climbing lanes and the signs there and I know that in the past and even before I came into government I myself felt very frustrated in using these particular areas of the hb:hway and I think most citizens driving on the highway today, most responsible citizens have been frustrated. I think this is due basically to the lack of knowledge of the signs and how they can be handled.

First of all let me say that "Slower traffic keep right" is the sign and not "slow traffic.·• It is slower traffic and obviously slower traffic means a vehicle which is being overtaken by anothr..r vehicle. That is the way I see it. So this vehicle should move into the climbing lane or climbing ramp.

Now the road sir,ns which have been erected by my department, as far as my investigations are concerned over the past twelve years, have been in compliance with the standards set out by the Canadian Manuel of Uniform Traffic Control Devices for Canada,and the re1ptirement for motorists to keep right when pass in~ is a standard rule for a three -lane hi~hway, a four-lane highway, a four-lane undivided highway or a four-lane or more divided highway. It is not,and I repeat 7 the standard rule for a two-lane highway with the very short climbing lanes which we have in t~is province at the present time.

Now I think we could assume that particularly in the area which the hon. memher for Bonavista South just mentioned, JM - 3 the area from St. John's to Whitbourne,in these climbing lanes that . ·· 3062

March 28, 1973 ' Tape 879 if we insisted that these people keep ri~ht except to pass you would find,particularly on the weekends, and I dP not think any member would disagree with this, that these short lanes would soon become very filled and there would be great frustrations and dangers to the public because of the selfishness of a great many of our motorists on the hi~hways.

They would not alone he waiting impatiently to p,et into the main stream of traffic at the head of the climbinr ramp where the sirn "Merge" would also cause a little problem and l!lerr,e means simply what it says,"merginp, traffic, be careful," that these people in these particular areas,particularly on the East Coast where we have heavy traffic particularly on the weekends /I.rd particularly more so in the summertime,that this would lead to nothing but frustration because these ramps or climbing lanes are not designed, Mr. Sneaker, for fast speed traffic. Now that is the most important point I want to put up.

They are not, according to all engineering standards,not desirned for fast speed traffic. For instance the tum-outs into these c]imbing lanes are very short, as you all know, their exits are very short, there is no long ramp into them like you will see in the lonp; three-lane highways on the mainland or an}"-1here else and before these can be extended or these signs can be changed these climbin~ lanes must be exten~ed, the entrances and exits must conform with standards, even their elevations on curves are below the inside lane elevation. These are points which I would like to point out.

The legal position on those I would like to read out, Your Honour. I know particularly, as I said already, that it is very frustrating when a driver, and this is what leacls to accidents, overtake!'! another clrivrr on the cC'nter lane who does not p11ll over.and he is travelllnr at the normal rnte of speecl 1 it lPncls to problems li\,e the hon. nenhe r for Jlonavi s ta Sou th h,1 s lust nen t ioned when he broke the lnw on two occasions. J was sorry to henr that, most 3063 JM - 4

March 28, 1973 Tape 879 sorry that he passed on the inside and was speeding on another occasion, shockinp;, shockinP, is all I can say. It is disgraceful, it :ls appalling, Mr. Speaker. But I would just like to read

section 119 of the Hi~hway Traffic Act and 120 - 119(2) and

section 120(k): "The driver of a vehicle which is proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall drive in the right-hand lane then available for traffic or as close as practicable to the right hand curb or edp.e of the roadway except on overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left hand turn at an intersection or into a private road or d.riveway." 306 4 JM - 5

March 28, 1973 Tape 880 IB-1 and

section 120 (

k) states, Sir, that the driver of a vehicle on a lanad road when beinp; overtaken by another vehicle travelling in the same direction shall allow that vehicle to pass and shall travel in the lane nearest to the right hand side of the road­ way or in a manner that allows the overtaking vehicle free passage to the left in a lane available to traffic moving in the same direction as the travel of the vehicle. Mr.

Speaker, if the above sections of this act were enforced and a few convictions obtained, we feel that the drivers who do not consider themselves to be slow drivers but who are the one who cause most of the frustrations would change their attitudes, swallow their pride and move over. I think nobody would repute that statement, Your Honour. As I said, I will just repeat that these lanes - just to emphasize it - according to all engineering standards are not capable of handling traffic particularly on the East Coast where we have very heavy traffic. They have to be extended, improved.

They have to be shouldered a little better because in many areas the shoulder of the highway has been used to obtain this third lane. Now, I would like to discuss, Mr. Speaker, the specific points that were presented to me in the brief from the Newfoundland Safety Council. These were and they enumerated the ones they felt - I agree here - were the ones which should now receive the most attention. 1. An improved licensing s~' stem. 2. A relicensing system. 3. High school driver education. 4. Regulntions re: driver instructors' schools. 5. Bicycle licrnsing systems; and 6. The point or the merit system.

Now, I presume because we have been hnvinR n little difficulty with lia1Ron, with the sAfety council, that tlu• snfety council are

!-(arch 28, 197 3 Tape 880 IB-2 speaking of - when they are sneaking of an improved licensing system - stricter written exlllTlin~tions. They have recommended to us, I must say - and we have looked at them - new examination papers with a hundred questi.ons in1Jtead of the twenty-five questions,which we have four groups of,which we are using at the present time. We feel that these should be done randomly, that the same twenty-five questions should not be used on a re-examination. For those reasons we use these four, or twenty-five questions,at random.

Now, we did not plan to adopt the hundred question paper proposed by the Safety Council because we plan to adopt standard national written examination paper designed by the Canadian Conference of Motor Transport authorities, CCM'TA. Again I repeat here that is my aim, that standarization with the rest of Canada is my aim while I am in this department and I am sure is the aim of the government. Now, again on the improved licensing system, physical examinations. Now, the Safety Council advocates general physical examination, eye tests, hearing tests, psychological testing.

The only way at the present time,Your Honour, that we could implement visual acuity tests or other physical tests j_s by requiring the applicant for a driver's license to submit a medical certificate for the issue of license. That, Your Honour, at the present time when I would personally like to see something of this nature, I think it would be an undue load on the medical profession which is having great difficulty at the present time. I would think that we would have many objections from the public on this one as well.

It looks at the moment as if it is an impossibility due to the lack of medical personnel in the areas of the Island and would be objectionable to many people who are now suffering from the lack of medical facilities. The stricter road tests and in this one I can go with ~swell The council advocates havingthe case of the testing of drivers taken out of police hands and put in departmental hands. In other words, we would have our own examiners. Right now, at the present 3066

March 28, 1973 Tape 880 moment 9 the RCMP do our examinations. Your Honour, The RCMP do these examinations because they are spotted all over this island IB-3 and the honourable member from St, Barbes North knows the difficulties which would occur if some one from that area or St. Anthony or the South Coast, whatever

section had to go to a central point to have these examinations done. I feel myself that we should have this. I feel that we should have our own examiners because the RCMP - we have been in touch with them on this and I think prior to my assuming this portfolio it was also done. We wondered if we could put in these visual examining machines which are not to difficult to operate - but they have felt that this is outside their capability,and did not wish to do so. I feel the only way we can go is look for our own examiners and this we are going to do when the necessary funds are available.

At the present moment the RCMP are spotted in every part of the island and they do the examinations. When we have business or conferences in other parts of the dominion, we feel pretty dejected often when we are so far behind in this type of examination(and this is why I agree emphatically with the Safety Council.) that we have to l go and say that our licenses are not transferable,for instance,to Ontario where so many of our people go.

The other point that I would like to mention that was agreed by us was the last conference of miniRters responsible for motor vehicle administration to implement ( and this was held by the way, Your Honour, in St. John's in October, I believe - I forget the exact dates - I was just getting back on my feet myself and it was a very successful conference ) a system of driver classification whereby there would he different licenses for motorcycles, automiblies, buses and various classes 9 by weight, of heavy tractor trailors.

We also agreed to conduct visual acuity tests and other medical examinations as soon as possible. They were very insistent on that and we hope to do that as soon as possible. We now have spec.ial licenses for motorcycle drivers, car drivers and for bus drivers. To inform the member for St. Barbe North: 3067

March 28, 1973 Tape 880 IB-4 When the licensing system - I know I may be repeating some of this - was discussed last week on this resolution.we now demand at the present time re-examination in three categories, if the permit is lapsed three years or more, any person with a physical disability of any kind,and thirdly, if the police report a person as having bad driving habits, we do in these important cases insist on re-examination. Now, as the honourable Leader of the House, the honourable member for St.

John's East,has stated and I did read in the paper that the accident rate is extremely high under the age of twenty. There are two schools now conducted by the Newfoundland Safety Council, Consolidated High School, Marystown,and Holy Heart of ~ary, St. John's. Those courses are approved by the Safety Council of Newfoundland,as required by regulations under the Highway Traffic Act. I wish we were holding them in many other schools as well.

I feel that perhaps - and I am going to do some work on this - that perhaps they should be mandatory,like they are iu some other provinces, that they should be part of the Highway Traffic Regulations,to be held in all schools. The forth point that was brought up in the brief was the driver instructors' schools. Your Honour, we have none. We-would have to train instructors to conduct classes for instance for prospective instructors probably at St. John's, Grand Falls, Corner Brook and Labrador City. At this moment.with the cost, it is out of the question.

On licensing; I have pot one point I wanted to mention on licensing and I am looking at this as wellPas perhaps if we do establish the licensing in our own hands, in our departmental hands, we may be able to get some type of mobile unit who would go - and we would stagger the dates as far as licensing requirments would be necessary. We are looking into the cost of this type of operation but we could use mobile units in licensing and then we would be able to get our visual testing done through this means beside~ 3068

March 28, 1973 Tape No. 881 NM - l the ones in the main centres. Ott the bicycling licencing system I am not quite sure on this one, as far as what was requested but I do not see any useful purpose in licencing bicycles as a source of revenue• '1'he licencing of bicycle riders may be another matter.Your Honour,but I can hardly see the department you know examining and issuing licenc~s to small children but,of course, I know I agree that the safety council always have the interest of children at heart and I feel that when we have a bit more discussions with them we will know exactly what they mean by that.

I think the most important point of all, and this one my government has pledged the point or demerit system. !ut there is one very important point here because no formalized system in my opinion can be implemented until an independent appeal board or boards are set up. Everybody knows, if you have an individual with repeated traffic violations and he haa lost nine points.for instance, and crosses a line or a simple little matter of a traffic violation, he loses his entire pointage. Where does he go?

He immediately has pressure on officials and I feel that this should be done, but it would not be fair to inflict this on public officials and it should be done by an independent appeal board and I think again that most honourable members of this honourable House will agree with me on that. As we know,under the ~riminal code, the National Parole Board can only act under that code.

There is a little problem here again, I think that legal minds in the House may know, I am sure they do, have a lot more expertise knowledge, but we have a little difficulty at the present moment with the amendment to the criminal Code, the Canadian Criminal Code.as far as restricted licences, which is causing a little problem in setting up the point system. We have to come up with some ideas on this. 3069

March 28, 1973 Tape No. 881 NM - 2 The department has tightened up as you Jmow,.YouT Honour,has been discussed here already,on vehicle inspections. t know that the honourable member for St. John's East has stated that since January, 226 sets of licence plates were removed from vehicles by dealers and they were sold without plates, either for scrapping or for complete overall by the registration.

Those were the main points which were covered in the brief and I repeat that in every one of these areas,except the bicycle one, we are going ahead as much and as quickly and as far as possible so we will be standardized Your Honour with the rest of Canada in these areas. Secause it is extremely important, I would say it is even embarrassing to go to some of these meetings and see how far we are behind in these areaa. If it is a peculiar attitutde,I do agr~e with the honourable member for White Bay South on many of the~e point• he ha• brought up.

Now there were a couple of points that I have to mention•, Your Honour,because I feel it would do us all good but after a lengthy discussion with the Director of Motor Vehicles and Dri~er Safety, Mr. E.R.

Bartlett, and various other avenues I had looked at and researched, I came up with some following information which to me appears to have started Newfoundland Safety Council to sort of get off their rears a little bit as far . as liaison with the Department of Highways is concerned, Now early last year the Newfoundland Safety Council called a Safety Conference which convened at the Newfoundland Hotel, and due to illness I was unable to attend.

It was a two day affair and according to all press reports it was very successful until the final day when without notice of any kind a speech was delivered by the Executive Director of the Newfoundland Safety Council condemning the Department of Highways for lack of co-operation, 3070

March 28, 1973 Tape No. 881 NM - 3 Now since I assumed office, Mr. Speaker, as Minister of Highways and a subsequent new name of Transportation and eo.nm1cation, our officials of this and my department have gone all out, Sir, to be of assistance to the motoring public of Newfoundland. I do not wish at this time or any other time to get involved in any way in a clash with a group of people who I think are doing a wonderful job, I know many of them who have given of their time and energies in this very important area.

Perhaps I should say that the director maybe has been frustrated over the years, perhaps he has and is probably over zealous,and there is nothing wrong with being over zealous when you are talking abouf safety, I am all for it, maybe that is where we get off the rails, but since my time in this departmP.nt, it has been very unfortunate that it seems to me that there has been no liaison and it certainly, as far as I am concerned, has not been my fault nor the fault of any of my officials.

Most of the points raised in any involvement here have been points well raised, many of them were false, I will agree, on boths•ides. But how did they start so suddenly at this particular time? Not only that, Mr. Speaker, but the Newfoundland Government is paying a grant of $7,500 per year to keep the council going, operating.and if that is not co-operation well I do not know what is, To suggest a commission of enquiry or a royal co1111111as1on to examine and review all aspects of highway safety is,in my opinion,not necessary at this time as I pointed out already. I pointed outimy colleague from St.

John's East, he pointed out in the Bouse last week, during my absence, that government members could not support such a commission because we feel it is not the proper approach 3071

March 28, 1973 Tape No. 881 NM - 4 at this time. It is not the proper approach I should say of ensuring highway safety.Your Honour. What is required is time and I think most members will agree is action,and this is what we are doing on all the points brought up by this brief. I would like to point out a few statistics,Your Honour. which I have here with regard to the increase of vehicles in this province during the past forty-five years - forty­ five years ago our province Newfoundland had only 1,089 vehicles and 1,297 drivers, that was back between 1925 and 1927.

By 1955 we were up to 16,478 vehicles, 21,741 drivers and then in 1960 we leaped to 63,075 vehicles and 67,250 drivers. In the past two years we have had a whopping 125,778 vehicles and 137,000 drivers and these figures are increasing all the time and as the driver has a great deal to do with accidents in my opinion, and the largest part due according tr, these fi~res. an increase - an increase in our highways, an increase in our paved roads.

It is nice, I agree with the gentleman opposite at all times that it is nice to get off an unpaved road and onto a paved one and people may get very enthusiastic and say it is wonderful, smooth and so on and so forth,but this will increase their accident rate. Now my department, Mr. Speaker, is very aware of these increases, extremely so. These increases which I have mentioned will continue to grow and grow and so will the accidents and fatalities on the roads unless we start to curtail it at the grass roots level. This, Mr. Speaker is not for a commission of enquiry or a commission.

Everyone in the province is aware of the fact that a commission of enquiry would take too long, lt would take at least several months - four, five or six months. I feel it would be a waste of time because we are working on these points at the present time. 3072

March 28, 1973 Tape No. 881 HM - 5 We know the fact and figures as presented by the honourable member for White Bay South last week and no member of this Bouse can deny them in any way. 3073

March 28, 1973 Tape 882 PK - 1 The facts are there and I know every honourable member would like to see them reversed. Mr. Speaker, since assuming office I have become totally aware of any my belief is that the province needs to alleviate some of the accidents and fatalities on the highways. One of main ways of doing this is a good Driver Education Prograrr:me,I think. I have stated this on many occasions, I do not mean educating the older type driver, I mean educating the young driver such as in our schools 1 already mentioned in the Driver F.ducation Programme in our schools.

People who are ta~tng to the highways for the first time must be made totally aware of the dangers and be totally aware of every facet of safety. There are a numher of vehicles coming to our province, a number of vehicles in the province, the number of drivers are increasing continuously. This is where the Driver Education Programme should hegin in our schools and I congratulate the Safety Council in initiating the two schools were they have initiated these driver courses. Now it has been mentioned al.ready and I will repeat it now, the honourable member for St.

Barbe North mentioned it, that we have driver education films. We have three of them which pertain to highway safety in this province,which are going to be distributed to the various high schools in the province, community orp,anizations and safety seminars, workshops, television or whatever. We ~ave had highway commericals produced which,to my knowledge, ~r. Speaker, is the first time it has ever been done in this province, I may be subject to correction on this. But I am convinced, Mr. Speaker, that this is where our programme should start and must start and start immediately.

We can do this through distrihution of these films by the audio-visual branch of the Department of Education to the various schools in the province. This is extremely important, Mr. Speaker. My colleapues and I are certainly aware of the ever increasing number of younr. people who ranch the drivinr. age and we feel that through those films,at least it will be a start, we will have a greater 3074

March 28, 1g73 '!'ape J:182 PK - 2 knowledge of highway safety in the province. Now, Mr. Speaker, my department has included in its estimates for the coming year the necessary funds for a driver's manual for the benefit of new drivers and hopefully on Friday funds will be made available, A lot of recommendations of the Newfoundland Safety Council will be incorporated in this manual now already in the planning stages. One of its main pruposes we have in mind is to protect the people on the highways in this province. Mr.

Speaker, my department is aware thereare greater demands I should say on drivers than ever hefore. And again I say everybody agreed today you must he more skillful, more alert and more knowledgeable. I think one of the speakeriin this debate mentioned actually he is scared to drive today. I am inclined basically to agree with him, occasionally.

If we bring in legislation of this nature, just let me repeat, because we must have on the merit system; I will just repeat I this again - when withdrawn for repeated traffic violations,it must he done throu11;h a separate appealJboard, I repeat this becanse I just noticed it here again. We have at the moment(! will quote another few statistics and to point out some of the aspects which are undertaken by my department with regard to highway safety in this province) we have a total of 568 authorized inspection stations consisting of service stations and garages, the highest ever.

We also have twelve inspectors attached to the Motor Registration DiviRion throuRhout the province and seven bus driver examiners. We are also hoping that thiR numher will he increased in the near future. Let me point out one fact,that in the past yeRr there were between 1100 and and 1200 vehicles which had their platcR removed throughout the province because of improper licencinR. People will say there :f.~ a lot of junk left on the road,perhaps there is hut there would he 1200 more except for the work that was done in this division. 3075

March 28 , 1973 Tape_ 882 PK - 3 We have heen ueinp,, aA I said earlier, standard traffic signs throughout the province and we hope to carry out a programme of education concerning these signs. We have been criticized by the safety people and other organizations because of lack of understanding of these signs, Your Honour. In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, my department is very aware of the situation regarding highways safety in this province. We are abreast of it. We hope to eliminate a lot of accidents and fatalities / through our safety programme. I would like to quote at this time another quote, Mr.

Speaker,a part of an editorial which appeared in a St. John's newspaper of January 4, 1973 and it bears repeating and I remember this particular occasion myself and I quote wh~re three or four years a~o a, R.C.M.P. officer speakin~ in Corner Brook durin~ Safe Driving week who said the indifference of Newfoundlanders and their noncompliance with the rules of safe driving and common sense were turning the highways of the province into a slaughterhouse .. I feel, Mr. Speaker, that could well sum it up.

I feel in my oJinion that at this time , ar1 I have stated on two or three occasions already this afternoon . we have most of these areas in hand. We intend to do every­ thing in our power to expedite them. What we need is action~and action now not in four or five months, to complete the comprehensive safe driving programme which my department has undertaken, It is also mentioned compulsory insurance for accident and no fault type was mentioned by the honourable member for White Bay South.We are lookin~ into this matter as well, as it was announced recently.

Perhaps the approach on this one may be a public enquiry to find out the area we should go to for uniform standards and rates. A better and closer liaison must be adopted between the Newfoundland Safety Council and my department. There were some questions asked that I would like to mention 'before I sit down . Your Honour, hasically on school bus regulations. The honourahle memher for St. llart>e North is quite correct when he says the CSA the Canadian Stnndnrd Association. Standard D 250, is not 3076

f;1arch 28, 1973 Tape 882 PK - 4 mandatory in this province. He is quite correct on that. We hope to bring our standards up to the standards of the Canadian Standard Association. We have received many requests from the safety council particularly say in the area of standees in school buses, Earlier this year we passed a regulation and I believe it was on the 12th. of February, where the operator of the school bus may not carry standees of more than fifty per cent of the seating capacity of the bus. It was formally twenty-five per cent.

We are bringing this down gradually because we feel that to do it more rapidly would impose an intolerable financial burden on our school boards at this time. ~Ie hope each year that we will improve this until we reach the Canadian Standard Association, in compliance with thi11 Standard 250,where no standees are allowed at all, but I cannot see this at this time.We are trying to minimize it gradually. We also s~y, where there are additional passen~ers,carried. that straps be available or handholds for the use of passengers. We are also working on the 3077

~•arch 28. 1973, Tape 883, Page 1 -- a.pb regulations to improve the seating and the forward seating as far as padding. This has not been done up to the present time. The !eating capacity has 'been increased and will be published on the 4th. day of January. I go into great detail on many of these areas, Your Honour. I would just like to mention to the honourable the member for St. Barbe North that a school bus has to have a mandatory examination by the R.C.M.P.,under the regulations,every three months and have a certified mechanic check it every three months.

They also have to have a special licensing examination by a bus examiner. These are regulations which were already in force. I think perhaps my honourable colleague,the ~inister of Education,might like to say a few words on this area. I just wanted to state about the C.S.A. standards and the examinations of the bus. I intend to do everything in my power,personally, to expedite the changes that have been outlined by the Safety Council. However, I feel that it is better to do it going the way we are going right now because I think we can do it more rapidly.

We are certainly going to spend a lot of time and we have had Quite a few discuasions already. Mr. Speaker, on that basis,! cannot support this resolution. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support this resolution. I want to congratulate my colleague, the member for White Bay South for bringing in a resolution at a time, Sir, when the accident rate, the death rate on our highways is the highest in the history of this province. I am amazed, Sir, to hear the ~inister of Transportation and Communications state that he is not in favour of this resolution.

I agree with some of the points the honourable minister raised but, Sir, his argument against appointing a royal commission at this time was very weak. As a matter of fact, ur. Speaker, some of his points had no logic in them, no logic at all, Sir. Obviously, tl1e honourable minister is paying too much attention to the engineers in his department who are more interested in building bridges and constructing a road from point "a" to point ''b" and how 3078

March 28, 1973, Tape 883, Page 2 -- apb you hould get it there than they are in safety on thP h1P,hwsys. Let me p;iv«? you an example, ~r. Speaker, of on,: point thnt the honourable minister made, to sho~ the House how illoP:ical it is. The minister said that the Newfoundland Safety Council should ~et off their rears ••• DR. FARRELL· I did not. 1"R. NEARY: The minister did state that, ~r. Speaker. DR. FARRELL: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, I certainly did not. On a point of order, I make that statement. MR. NEARY: Get off the rails. AN HON. !-fEMBER: (Inaudible) -------- "'1t.

NEARY: That must he in the Southern Part of Ireland, Sir, they use that kind of lingo. DR. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, would someone inform the honourable member I. .. MR. NEAPY: ~r. Speaker, am I going to be interrupted, Sir, ••• DR. FARFELL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: hn I permitted to speak in silence or am I going to be continuously interrupted by the "Irish Rover?" DR. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. MR. NEARY: "The Rebel." AN HON. MEMBER: Go back to your ~arbage dump. Sit down'. Would you ask him to sit down on a point of order, Sir? MR. NEARY: Is it a point of order, Mr. Speaker. DR.

FARRELL: Why, when the honourable ••• 1"R. SPEAKER: Point of order. DR. FARRELL: Flunkie, mobile pimple from Bell Island ••• l'IR. NEARY : Mr. Speaker, what kind of a point of order is this? Sit down you forei~n-poin~ despot. This animated lArynx from Bell Isinnd. Are we going to put up with thPRe contJnuous insults? ~-__ Nf,!1._RY_:_ ~r. Speaker, thfR 1s not a point of order, Sir, I demand 3079

~arch 28, 1973, Tape 883. Page 3 -- apb to be able to carry on with my speech. It is not a point of order. Sit down you foreirn despot. MR. SPE>K!,~~- Order please! If both honourable gentlemen would resume their places. The debate could degenerate into a name-calling session between the two honourable gentlemen and I am sure that nobody in the House wishes that. The honourable memher for Bell Isalnd has the floor and has the rip,ht to be heard in silence. The Minister of ~ransportation and Communications, if he has a point of order may make it, however. l-'R. NEAFY: Thank you, ~r. Speaker.

It could develop into an Irish brawl if this sort of thinr, kept up. I did not interrupt the Minister of Transportation and Communications when he was speaking, Sir. MR. J. MORGAN: He made sense then, common sense. MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, I was dealing - The Chancellor of ~cGill. Mr. Speaker, would Your Honour please ask the ', Chancellor to learn a little courtesy in this !louse, a little manners and stop interrupting. MR. ~ORGAN: Speaking of manners, where are your manners? Under~round? MR- NEMlY: Mr. Speaker, if honourable members would just sit back they might learn somethin)!'.

They obviously cannot take it. Voting against this resolution, ~r. Speaker is like voting against motherhood. MR. EVANS: We should have voted against yours. MR. NEARY: Sir, the minister says they should get off their rears or off the rails or whatever it was he said and create a better liaison with the Department of Transportation and Communications. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to point out to the honourable minister that the Newfoundland Safety Council, which is a nongovernment, nonprofit organization and the only organization of its kind active in this province,in safety on our hiRhways and school safety and industrial safety, that the miniffter,in April of 1972, the minister who is asking the Newfoundland Safety Council to create better liaison with his department, do the honourahle members know what the minister did in April 1972? P.e cut the ~rant of the Newfoundland Safety Council from 3080

March 28, 1973, Tape 883, Page 4 -- apb $10,000 a year down to $7,500. MR. mPr.AN: You Baid it was an nonprofit organization. HR. ·NEARY: That is rip:ht, it is nonprofit, ~r. Speaker. Then the ainister has the gall to get up here and ask the Newfoundland Safety to get off their rears and create a better liaison with the department. This reduction in the grant, Sir, has had a very serious effect on the programme and the good work that the Newfoundland Safety Council is doing in this province, Sir.

If the Safety Council is 2oin2 to be able to do the work that they would like to do and make meaningful progress in this province, instead of cutting the grant it should have been increased. Take some of the money that was lashed out to McLean and use it to protect the drivers on the highways in this province. Then the minister talked about the passing lanes. The passing lanes. He said that if we changed the signs on the passing lanes to read "Keep right except when passing" they would be blocked, you would have a line-up of traffic. What nonsense, Mr. Speaker, what utter nonsense.

I never heard such tripe in my life. No logic. The minister should know better. AN HON. !-'EMBER.: (Inaudible) n. NEARY: The minister did say it. Sir, I think and I have thought ever since the third lane was put in, that it is wrong, that we should follow the practice in other Provinces of Canada, that you keep right except when passing. I stated that in this House five years ago, Sir, and I still think I am right but because of the stubbornness of the engineers down in the Department of Highways, we have not been able to get it changed. It should he changed, Sir.

Apart from liquor, apart from alcqhol, I would say that this has caused more accidents on the Trans Canada Highway than anythinp: else. It is next t_o liquor I would say and I am told, Sir, thnt liouor is involved in fifty percent of the highway accidents in Newfoundland. I would ~ay thnt that is a pretty serious matter, Sir. 3081

March 28, 1973, Tane 883, Page 5 -- ~pb The minister also said - before t g;et off these passin~ lanes, Mr. Speaker, the minister said that before they take a look at that they have to improve the shoulders of the road. That is probably true, the shoulders pretty well alon~ the whole len~th of the Trans Canada Hi~hway are in bad shape. But, Sir, I do not think it is necessary to extend these lanes to change these signs. I think -it should be done at once. Sir, the meinber for Bonavista South when he was s-peaking in this ,debate pointed out that the slow drivers were more of a hazard an the , 3082

March 28, 1973 Tape 884 JM - 1 highway and they were the ones who were causinP. all the trouble in these lanes. Well, Sir, the hon. minister must know if he visits his district at all, does any driving on the Trans Canada,that if you are out in the lane where you are supposed to be,going sixty miles an hour,and some fellow comes up behind you and he is not satisfied with the rate of speed at which your car is proceeding, he will pull in the right lane, Sir, and he will pass by you. The minister did not mention this at all but this is a fact, Sir, because it has happened to me on a number of occasions.

It has probably happened to every member in this House, cars passinp, in the wron~ lane, passing in the inside lane. AN HON. MEMBER: It may be legal but it is certainly dangerous. MR. NEARY: It is not legal and it is not illegal. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, it is wrong and it should be stopped and the only way it can be stopped is to change the signs and conform with practices in all the other provinces of Canada whereby you keep right except when passing. The minister mentioned another point that I dis~gree with him on about licensing bikes.

The minister said, "No, we are not goin~ to get involved with licensing bikes, little children havin2; to license their bikes." Well, Sir, I have little children and I can inform this llouse that I would feel more confident and more reassured if I knew when my children were out riding bikes on the streets and on the hir,hway that they had to pass a test, that they had to undergo some training and that they had to have a license hefore they ride these bikes. Rir,ht now, Sir, they just ro out ancl learn on their own. They do not know the rules and rerulations nf the road. They do not know the rules of the road.

Thcv .,rP helter-!>h•lter al 1 over the pL"lcc :ind they are a Jwz::irrl, Sir, my nwn cldlrlrcn,ancl T would he VC'TY h:ippy if some l,'.rn11nd rulC'n wcrP ln{d cfown whereby thc- 1;p kids were tnvcn un<lPr. the winP' of some orrnnization ]il:c th<' f!c>wfoundland S::ifety r.ouncil 3083

March 28, 1973 Tape 884 and they were taught how to ride a bike properly on the highway and on the streets. What nonsense the minister is getting off with.

Now, Sir, I agree with many of the points that have been raised in this debate, points that have been put forward by the Newfoundland Safety Council: their recommendation that a new licensing programme should be developed by the Department of Transportation and Communications, that a programme of relicensing should be initiated by the Department of Transportation and Communications~ and this programme would require all motorists to take the written an~ practical driver examination every four years. This process, Mr. Speaker, would have a tendency of upgrading the driver performance in this province.

Sir, I do not know if members are aware of it or not but under the heading of ''High School Education" Newfoundland is the only province in Canada that does not have a High School Driver Education programme. Mr. Speaker, the fip,ures that I have,there are 15,000 young people becoming eligible to drive each year in this province and, Sir, before they are p,ranted a license or before they start driving on the highways I think they should have some knowledge of what they are doing. They should acquire some knowledge of driving.

I think, Sir, and I agree with the Newfoundland Safety Council that it should be a part of the curriculum in the schools. The minister pointed out in his remarks this afternoon that a manuel for motorists would be provided, 3084 JM - 2

March 28, 1973 Tap~ No. 885 NM - 1 MR, NEARY: I think he said next month or sometime this year. I am glad to hear this, Sir, this is something that the Wewfoundland Safety Council have been advocating for a long time, Now, Mr. Speaker, for a government that swept into power last spring on a pledge to create jobs for our provincial unemployed and to help small industry, this present administration during the last fourteen months, Sir, from whet ve have seen of them, have reversed their policy in this regard. What other way, Mr.

Speaker, can we explain the purchase of provincial licence plates from a Mainland firm when we already have here in this province, Sir, a competent manufacturer only a few miles down the highway here who could manufacture these plates? I do not think it would be fair to say, Sir, that the present Tory Administration is deliberately creating unemployment. It could be said I suppose,if they were trying to get more assistance, more federal funds, more money from Ottawa. But Mr.

Speaker, one thing that stood out in the unfortunate controversy that developed last year in this licence plates situation was the inability of the Minister of Highways or the Minister of Transportation and Communications to clearly refute statements made by Robert Neal Limited, pointing out the unfair treatment his firm received in this matter of the discriminatory placing an order for licence plates outside the province. MR. MURPHY: There was a tender called. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, there was a tender called. The dice were loaded, the cards were stacked. The Newfoundland Safety Council, Mr.

Speaker, clearly proved the safety advantages of retaining the present reflectorized licence plates for up to three more years. Despite a stron~ case, Sir, that these reflectorized plates ehould h.~ve been retained, the minister, in his ueual stubborn way, his stubborn persistence,salrl no. The licenee plates were ordered 3085

March 28, 1973 Tape No. 885 NM - 2 from Nova Scotia. which will cost the taxpayers of this province, Mr. Speaker, the better part of $100,000 on licence plates that are only good for one year, Sir, when we are told that the reflectorized licence plates could have been used for another three years. This, Mr. Speaker, in my opinion, is straight stupidity.

The Newfoundland Safety Council, Sir, is an authority on this matter, Sir, our province's enlightened authority.and they told us that the vast majority of the States in the United States are unanimous in upholdin~ the benefits of safety reflectorized licence plates and yet the minister persisted in his wrongdoing. He persisted in bis wrongdoing• Sir, and he upheld_ the decision of the administration to do away with reflectorized licence plates. The minister should have been man enough, Mr.

Speaker, to admit his mistake and use the reflectorized licence plates for another three years and save us all hundreds of thousands of dollars. You know, Mr. Speaker, to add insult to injury, members of the House of Assembly then were given the preferential treatment. They were asked to decorate their cars with special white on blue plates, the Tory colours. We in the opposition, Sir, did not feel that we were any better than anyone else in this province. MR. MURPHY: That is why you had 1001 to 1040. How stupid! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a set of numbers is a different matter than going out and having special 3086

March 28, 1973 Tape 886 plates made,especially when they are Tory colored. Mr. Speaker, 1 was never impressed even with reserving a block of numbers which was the past tradition of members of the House. Even that, Mr. Speaker, in my opinion smacked of discrimination. So, the opposition, Sir, decided to forego that privilege of using these special plates. It is too bad, Mr. Speaker, that the honourable minister is not in his seat. It is too bad he ie not in his seat because- Mr. Speaker, could I speak in silence please?

I want Your Honour to rule because I am being interrupted by old prayer beads himself here from St. ;John's Centre. IB-1 MR.. SPEAKER: The honourable member will be premitted to s~eak in silence. MR.. NEARY: The honourable minister is such a hypocrite he would strangle you with your own prayer .beads while you are saying the rosary, Sir. MR. MURPHY: That is the second time you said that,slimy mouth. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, do I have to tolerate this? MR. MURPHY: Yes,listen to it, you big bluff. MR. NEARY: You what? MR. l"URPHY: You big bluff. You are lucky you do not get a punch in the nose. MR.

NEARY: Oh now, Mr. Speaker, here we are. We have two bully boys in the House. Oh, Mr. Speaker, you are looking at a member here that could not care less for anything on that side of the HouRe,cither individually or collectively, Sir. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. NF.ARY: Oh, sit down. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Spea