Alberta Hansard — 28 March 1980, Morning sitting (10:00) (Legislature 19, Session 2)

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Alberta — Debates (Hansard)

March 28, 1980 ALBERTA HANSARD 121 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Friday, March 28, 1980 10:00 a.m. [The House met at 10 a.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SELECT COMMITTEES MR. PURDY: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present the report of the special committee appointed to prepare the membership on the select standing committees and the Special Select Standing Committee on Members' Services. head: NOTICES OF MOTIONS MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to give oral notice that on Monday I will move to adopt the report just presented to the Assembly by the hon.

Member for Stony Plain. head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 23 The Wildlife Amendment Act, 1980 MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce a Bill, The Wildlife Amendment Act, 1980. The purpose of this Bill is to define and recognize the importance of wildlife habitat. As well, it will provide for the flexibility to control the keeping, marking, and sale of wildlife, and will allow for improvements in the administrative aspects of the Act. [Leave granted; Bill 23 read a first time] Bill 17 The Motor Vehicle Administration Amendment Act, 1980 DR. C. ANDERSON: Mr.

Speaker, I request leave to introduce Bill 17, The Motor Vehicle Administration Amendment Act, 1980.

The main purposes of this Bill are to facilitate the administration of motor vehicle registra tions by redefining certain vehicles, to facilitate the mo toring public by allowing entry into Alberta by way of in-transit permits issued by other jurisdictions in Canada, and to create conformity with provisions in The Motor Transport Act, the Criminal Code of Canada, and other provisions of this Act including enforcement of the penal ty provisions. [Leave granted; Bill 17 read a first time] Bill 8 The Service of Documents During Postal Interruptions Act MR. KUSHNER: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to introduce Bill No. 8, The Service of Documents During Postal Interruptions Act. The Bill provides for alternate modes of service where the rules of court, various statutes, and the common law allow service of various kinds of docu ments by mail when there is interruption of postal service. [Leave granted; Bill 8 read a first time] MR. CRAWFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I move that Bill No. 17, The Motor Vehicle Administration Amendment Act, 1980, and Bill No. 8, The Service of Documents During Postal Interruptions Act be placed on the Order Paper under Government Bills and Orders. [Motion carried] Bill 212 The Utility Consumers' Advocate Act MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce Bill No. 212, The Utility Consumers' Advocate Act.

The purpose of this Bill is to ensure that Albertans affected by the decisions of utilities tribunals, particularly the Energy Resources Conservation Board, the Public Utilities Board, and the Surface Rights Board, will be able to receive full and proper representation before those tribunals, regardless of their financial means.

Such repre sentation will be ensured by the creation of the office of the utility consumers' advocate, who will be appointed for a term of five years, will be dismissable only for cause, and will be able to retain technical expertise and legal counsel to assist in representing Albertans properly be fore these boards. This Bill will help balance the scales as between utility companies and individual Albertans who may be affected by such decisions and who often lack the financial . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I'm getting an increasing ly stronger impression that debate on the Bill has started. [Leave granted; Bill 212 read a first time] head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS MRS. FYFE: Mr. Speaker, this morning I'd like to introduce to you and to other Members of the Legislative Assembly 55 grade 9 students from the Sturgeon Heights school located in the municipal district of Sturgeon, accompanied by their teacher Elizabeth Corbett. They are seated in the members gallery. I'd ask them to stand and be recognized. MR. PAHL: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to introduce to you, and through you to the members of this Assembly, 54 grade 6 students from the Malcolm Tweddle school in the constituency of Edmonton Mill Woods. They are seated in the public gallery. They are accompanied by teachers Mrs. Lloyd, Mrs. Southwood, Mrs. Lee, Mrs. Konrad, and Mrs. Brunesse. I would ask them to stand and receive the greetings of this Assembly.

122 ALBERTA HANSARD March 28, 1980 head: MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Treasury MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I wish to announce a policy change which will strengthen Alberta's long-term finances and reduce a massive liability facing Alberta taxpayers in the decades ahead. The province of Alberta administers and guarantees six pension plans, three of its own: the Public Service, Public Service Management, and M.L.A. Pension plans; and three on behalf of other public employers: the Local Authorities, Universities Academic, and Special Forces plans.

In addition, it guarantees but does not administer the Teachers' Retirement Fund. The three provincial plans now involve a total of approximately 53,000 contributing employees and pen sioners; the three plans administered for other public employers together cover approximately 59,000 contribut ing employees and pensioners, and the Teachers' Retire ment Fund, approximately 30,000. Pensions are in some ways similar to deferred income.

Under a typical pension plan both the employee and the employer make a monthly contribution during the work ing years of the employee in order that income will accrue to the employee when he or she retires. With private sector pension plans and in some public plans the pension dollars contributed by the employee during his working years, and the employer's contribu tion, are paid into a fund. The moneys in the fund are then invested to yield a sound rate of return. This fund grows from two sources: the employee/employer contrib utions and the earnings of the fund's investments.

To gether, these moneys are used to pay pensions to those who retire. While a separate fund exists for the teachers' plan, no separate fund exists for any of the six provincially- administered plans. Public employee contributions are paid into the government's current daily operating ac count, the General Revenue Fund. For its own plans the government makes no contribution as employer. Pension payments are paid out of the General Revenue Fund. For the three plans it administers for others, the employers contribute a sum at least equal to that of the employees.

Today, contributions cover benefits paid, but at the same time we are accumulating a huge "unfunded liabili ty" which future generations may be called upon to pay. That liability is the cost of pensions that future taxpayers will be obliged to pay. Without a pension fund, the moneys would have to continue to come from the Gener al Revenue Fund. The Auditor General of Alberta has brought to our attention the large, unfunded liabilities of provincial pen sion plans.

In the 1977-78 Public Accounts he said the General Revenue Fund balance sheet "does not reflect any liability in respect of the Province's substantial commitment to guarantee the payment of all benefits due under" its pension Acts. In the 1978-79 Public Accounts he noted that the liability of the province under The Universities Academic Pension Act, at December 31, 1976, not counting future pension contributions, amounted to approximately $270 million.

He also noted that the Teachers' Retirement Fund assets, at August 31, 1978, would be insufficient by an amount of approxi mately $742 million to meet the liabilities of that fund. Temporary surpluses can be used in a responsible way to begin a funding plan that would reduce the govern ment's future liability and exposure, assist all taxpayers in the years ahead, and stabilize the province's financial position in the long term.

Accordingly, it is sound and prudent financial man agement for the government to begin partial funding of the six public sector pension plans now: — Without funding, taxpayers in the decades ahead could be called upon to bear higher public service pension costs. The burden on taxpayers in future years could be substantial, given projected shifts in the age structure of the province's population.

In Alberta, where over half our revenue comes from non-renewable natural resources, it is sound policy for the government today to protect future tax payers by reducing the government's potentially huge future pension obligations. Productive in vestments from a fund, commencing now, can in crease the income stream available to pay the benefits and decrease the future tax burden.

This will help to ensure that future Albertans will con tinue to have top quality health, education, social, recreation, and other services. — The government requires the operators of all pri vate pension plans in Alberta to set aside, in an investment fund, sufficient assets to meet the full cost of pensions to be paid in the future.

This ensures that employers in the private sector have sufficient moneys to pay their employees' pensions upon retirement. — If and when the province of Alberta needs to borrow on the open market to balance the budget in future decades, our credit rating will be better if pension liabilities are funded. Future governments will be able to borrow at more favorable rates if a responsible approach to funding is started now. — I note, Mr. Speaker, that eight other provinces have fully or partially funded pension plans at the moment.

Accordingly, over time and beginning in the 1980-81 fiscal year, the government will use part of the General Revenue Fund surplus to set up a pension fund to partial ly cover unfunded liabilities for past service of employees in the public service pension plans that I have described. The first stage of this approach will involve a transfer of $1.1 billion from the operating surplus account to begin the pension fund.

This figure equates with the amount of money that might be in a hypothetical Alberta pension fund had employee and employer contributions been deposited in a pension fund over past years (that's less payments to pensioners). This initiative will be reflec ted in the forthcoming budget. Legislation to implement this move will be introduced to the Assembly this fall. The new pension fund will be set up later in this fiscal year. Payment of contributions to and of benefits from the fund will not occur until the 1981-82 fiscal year.

Some actuarial studies to establish liabilities have been completed; others will be commissioned soon, as part of an ongoing review of the entire pension area. The new pension fund will be invested by the govern ment through the Treasury Department. Reflecting this pension policy change, the day to day administration of public service pensions will, as of April 1, 1980, be transferred to the Treasury Department. The pension boards will continue to report to the minister responsible for pensions. The administration of the Teachers' Retirement Fund will continue as in the past. To conclude, Mr.

Speaker, this initiative represents sound financial management for the benefit of future citi

March 28, 1980 ALBERTA HANSARD 123 zens. It makes sense as a responsible fiscal approach which will protect future Alberta taxpayers and preserve the budgeting integrity of this province. Hospitals and Medical Care MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, today I am pleased to announce the government's intentions to proceed with another phase in the improvement of the management of our financial responsibilities. Last year this government applied $1 billion of provin cial funds towards the reduction of existing municipal government debt.

This year the government proposes to pay off the outstanding debentures issued by hospitals and district nursing home boards throughout Alberta. These deben tures were issued to finance hospital and district nursing home capital construction. Principal and interest pay ments on these debentures have been supported in the past from the annual budget of the Department of Hospi tals and Medical Care. The provincial budget that will soon be presented to hon. members for their consideration will provide $340 million for the purpose of financing the hospital deben ture retirement program.

Additionally, the estimates of the Department of Hospitals and Medical Care will con tain capital votes to cover current construction projects. The government intends to pay for hospitals as they are built, and the votes will be recommended for approval by the Legislature. Mr. Speaker, this major change in the financing of hospital projects will require legislation, and it is my intention to introduce a Bill early in this session for consideration by the members. The plan I have outlined today will assist hospital boards in their administrative responsibilities in a very significant way.

It is also an important adjunct to pro ceeding with the major program of additional hospital construction announced earlier this week. It will eliminate annual capital interest charges from hospitals' budgets. Mr. Speaker, the ongoing commitment of hospital con struction made by this government, the wiping out of accumulated past debentures, and the pay-as-you-go poli cy being recommended today places Alberta in a unique and enviable position with respect to Canadian health care facilities. Thank you. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to respond very briefly to the two announcements made by the hon. ministers.

In commenting on the first, I've always been very concerned about the non-funding of pension plans. When we look at some of the projections of our neighbors to the south, that the pension funds will be moving into the trillions and are going to be funded out of general revenue, I would hate to be looking forward to that type of pension arrangement. The same situation faces us fed erally here in Canada. So I would like to compliment the government on letting Albertans' dollars look after Alber tans. We've been trying to get this message to the government for the last two years, Mr. Premier.

In complimenting the Minister of Hospitals and Medi cal Care, I would like to say that I think it's a positive move. When the hon. minister talks about pay-as-you-go policy, I'm glad to hear they're finally following a little bit of good Social Credit policy. Thank you. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Nursing Profession DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask my first question of the Minister of Labour. It's a follow-up ques tion from last week on the negotiations between the United Nurses of Alberta and the Alberta Hospital Asso ciation.

The minister said in Hansard that there was a possibility that a conciliation report would be available by this week. Can the minister indicate if that report has now been finalized and is available? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I can respond to the hon. Member for Clover Bar that the report is not available as of this moment. I cannot comment further because I haven't had contact today with the conciliation board, but I understand they have a sizable decision or a number of decisions to make this week. I'm rather doubtful it will be received today. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a second follow-up question to the minister.

Can the minister indicate if he has set some firm deadlines as to when negotiations are going to come to a head? The information we received is that a decision is being asked for very, very quickly. Can the minister indicate if a deadline has been set as to when the report will come in and a decision made? Is the minister going to involve himself personally or not? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, if I understand the question correctly, the response would be that I have not received any request for a further extension of the deadline.

I would not contemplate giving an extension of the dead line, inasmuch as I believe the parties have made their submissions to the conciliation board as they deemed necessary, and the conciliation board can make the neces sary decisions in the time remaining before March 31. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care.

In light of the minister's announcement last week about the in creased hospital funding in the province or the capital costs, and in light of the fact that we have at least 400 vacancies in the nursing profession in the province right now, can the minister indicate — in reading Hansard, he didn't give me an exact answer — what plans are in place at this time to cope with the nursing shortage we have in the province, without even the new hospitals coming on stream? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, that's a challenge that occurs at regular cycles in the health care system.

Natur ally, we're very concerned about it, and are looking to the two traditional ways for hospital boards to meet those challenges. First of all, of course, is the training of our young people as they graduate from the school systems, going into professions and occupations that would permit them to fill those vacancies; and, secondly, the recruit ment of people immigrating to Alberta, either moving for other reasons or by direct recruitment, as has been the practice in the past. MRS. EMBURY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to direct my question to the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care.

During this period of nego tiations between the nurses and the Alberta Hospital Association, and with some of the apparent disruptions

124 ALBERTA HANSARD March 28, 1980 occurring in some of our hospitals, particularly in the larger cities, would the minister please assure the Assem bly that patient care is not suffering due to these disruptions? MR. RUSSELL: I believe I can give that assurance, Mr. Speaker, because this is something that naturally we're very concerned about. The ongoing communications we have with the Alberta Hospital Association have given me that assurance that health care for patients is not presently suffering because of current salary negotiations. DR. BUCK: Mr.

Speaker, a question to the Minister of Advanced Education and Manpower. In light of the fact that an increased number of nurses will be required in the province because of the new hospital facilities coming on stream, is the minister prepared to increase funding to community colleges and schools of nursing to increase the supply of nurses? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, as in all cases, the public colleges responsible for some of the nursing train ing which takes place in Alberta make budgetary submis sions based upon their projected program changes or enrolments.

Of course those are always taken into consid eration in determining budgetary allocations to the public colleges in the province. I may say, Mr. Speaker, that the subject of nursing programs at the colleges is presently being reviewed by the college boards and by the Universi ties Co-ordinating Council. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary to the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care. The other day I asked what contingency plans are in place if negotiations have not been finalized and the nurses of the province resign en masse?

What contingency plans does the minis ter have to look after the problem of nurses walking off the job by resigning their positions? The minister can answer that, and I'll ask a short one. MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I view that as a hypothet ical question, and I don't think I should respond to it because of that. I think both parties are assuming, until today and on an ongoing basis, that both sides would proceed in a legal and proper way. That's the only response I can give. DR. BUCK: Contingency plans are in the event some thing will happen, Mr. Speaker, so it's hypothetical only to that point. Mr.

Speaker, just one short further question. On the question I asked as to the projected shortfall of nursing staff in the province in light of the new programs that are coming in place, does the minister's department have any studies on what this shortfall will be in, say, the next three-year period? MR. RUSSELL: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I'm not in a position to give accurate data with respect to individual institu tions because those are still just at the preliminary pro gramming stage.

But insofar as ongoing monitoring, I think I did indicate there's an interdepartmental commit tee assisted by outside lay persons that does keep an ongoing scorecard, if I can use that term, on the profes sional health care scene. I mentioned earlier, and should repeat again, that these shortages are cyclical. They have occurred in the past and have self-corrected through one or another means. I must be optimistic that that will happen again, providing we take the proper steps. DR. BUCK: Like money. MR. RUSSELL: We've indicated that we're prepared to take those initiatives. MR.

HIEBERT: A supplementary question, Mr. Speak er, to the Minister of Labour. As a result of the recent settlement with nurses in B.C., could the minister com ment on the effect or impact that will have on negotia tions in Alberta and on the supply of nurses in Alberta? MR. SPEAKER: With great respect to the hon. member, that would appear to be a direct invitation to the minister to launch into the realm of opinion rather than fact, which is the proper purpose of the question period. Prince Rupert Terminal DR. BUCK: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to ask my second question of the Minister of Economic Development or the Minister of Transportation. This deals with the meet ings the minister had with the hon. M. Pepin. As of the change of the government, can the Minister of Economic Development indicate if there has been any change in the commitment that the provincial government has made to the building of the terminal in Prince Rupert? MR. PLANCHE: As the member may know, Mr. Speak er, the concept of the new port on Ridley Island assumed that the federal government was going to be responsible for transportation services.

We've been deeply disap pointed that they seem to be reneging on that commit ment to all the western provinces. Apart from that, our desire to build the terminal remains and, hopefully, the negotiations to conclude the financing will be ongoing. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister of Economic Development. In light of the fact that the negotiations with the federal government have sort of changed since the change of government, can the minister indicate if there is going to be a change in the date of the start of construction at Prince Rupert? MR. PLANCHE: Mr.

Speaker, the beginning of the in frastructure construction has already passed; there is al ready some infrastructure construction going on. We are troubled that the precedent of the federal government reneging on a commitment and causing our agricultural producers to cut further into their earnings, f.o.b. the farm, would be one that perhaps we couldn't tolerate down the road, so we are rethinking how the negotiations might continue. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, can the minister indicate if Alberta farmers will have to pay any of the cost of putting into place the infrastructure at Prince Rupert? MR. PLANCHE: Mr.

Speaker, that would be specula tion at this point because we haven't concluded final negotiations for financing. But it should be clear to everyone that if there are increased costs and you're backing them up against worldwide competitive economic prices, clearly it will back up to the producer.

March 28, 1980 ALBERTA HANSARD 125 MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I could sup plement the hon. minister's answer by advising the House it is intended that that item will be near the very top of the agenda at the western premiers' conference in Leth- bridge in a few weeks. The hon. Minister of Economic Development has expressed to the House the concern with the reneging by the federal government of its obliga tions. Perhaps it should be underlined for the Assembly that the constitutional responsibilities here rest with the federal government.

The undertakings made by the Al berta government were not by way of constitutional obli gation, but merely supportive of the Alberta farmers. In addition I might say that on a number of occasions there has been a growing acceptance of rejecting the view of user-pay in transportation in Canada. The preliminary reports we have on the communication from the federal Minister of Transport that the Minister of Economic Development was referring to, alarm us in the sense that they seem to be a return to that concept of user-pay.

I presume the hon. member was asking in his earlier ques tion as to the impact by way of payment or obligation by the western grain farmers to develop these facilities. We consider these negotiations and discussions as very, very serious. For our part, we in Alberta are prepared to continue to play whatever appropriate role we can as a catalyst in moving forward that very essential project. But we have to recognize the reality that it is a port in Canada, it is a part of the transportation system, and it involves a re quirement by the federal government to meet its due obligations to all regions of Canada. DR.

BUCK: Mr. Speaker, just a final short supplementa ry question to either the Premier or the minister. Has the change from the former Liberal government's philosophy of user-pay to the just-former federal government's phi losophy of government-pay and now back to the user-pay philosophy, changed the philosophy and position of the Alberta government in the discussions that have just taken place as to its going ahead with the terminals and infrastructure? MR. PLANCHE: I guess the best way to answer that, Mr. Speaker, is that we are determined in the longer pull to properly evacuate the products of this province.

Dur ing that interim when the previous Liberal government was replaced by the Conservative government, the nego tiations were continuing on the financing of the port facil ity. They weren't concluded until the Conservative gov ernment was in place. The change has occurred from that firm position, and the reaction to that won't be forthcom ing until we've thought through its ramifications to the total transportation system. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, just a short point on that. Can the minister indicate if that firm commitment was in writing, a statutory commitment, or just an oral com mitment? Because, Mr.

Speaker, if it was a government- to-government commitment in writing, then that com mitment will have to be followed up. If it's just a Conservative-to-Conservative, buddy-buddy type of commitment, then that's a different thing altogether. MR. PLANCHE: Mr. Speaker, this wasn't a buddy-to- buddy negotiation at all. It was a negotiation among a consortium, the National Harbours Board, the federal government, and the provincial government in terms of some financing support. As to whether or not it's in writing, I'd like to take that as notice and respond. MR. LOUGHEED: Mr.

Speaker, just to add to it, I think the appropriate way to look at this matter is that the documentation was a public commitment by the duly elected federal Minister of Transport at the time last fall. Surely we as Canadians are entitled to rely upon that. If the thrust of the hon. member's question was whether or not there's a legal obligation, we'll have to do some checking, as the minister said.

It would be doubtful that would be the case, because it was part of an earlier negotiation of the responsibilities that would be assumed by the consortium, responsibilities assumed by the federal government, and responsibilities that we were prepared to present and have presented in assisting in the financing through the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund. We'll have to check, but I would really have to react against the buddy-to-buddy aspect. It was duly put by the elected Minister of Transport. It is not just for the benefit of Alberta; it is a project for the benefit of all of western Canada. MR.

SINDLINGER: Supplementary please, Mr. Speak er, to the minister. The minister has indicated that the "infrastructure construction" has begun at Prince Rupert. Can you please advise the Assembly whether the govern ment of Alberta has any contractual or financial obliga tion regarding the costs associated with that? MR. PLANCHE: Mr. Speaker, the infrastructure I was referring to was a road approaching the causeway that the British Columbia government is participating in financially.

Our commitments were made publicly in good faith by our Premier in the context of the good- faith commitments of the federal government. How that all fits into the picture since the surprising and disap pointing announcement last week remains to be seen. Health Care Payments — Physiotherapy MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care. It concerns the payments from Alberta Hospital Services Commission for physiotherapy treatment. A number of centres in Alberta, such as Edmonton, Calgary, Ponoka, and Red Deer, receive payments.

Payments are not made outside those areas. I wonder if the minister has made any changes in the program of payments for physiotherapy that would assist payments being made in the rural and other areas of Alberta. MR. RUSSELL: I'm not in a position to say anything on that matter today, Mr. Speaker, although that item has been given a lot of attention during the last few months. We recently met again with the physiotherapists' associa tion executive and discussed that matter at some length. I expect to be able to make an announcement within the coming weeks. International Assistance Program DR. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Minis ter responsible for Culture is with regard to Alberta's international assistance program. Some of the non governmental agencies receiving matching grants for in ternational development have been unable to utilize these funds because of Alberta requirements to use Alberta

126 ALBERTA HANSARD March 28, 1980 goods and services. Does the government restrict or direct the use of these funds, or is that decision left to people in the third world countries operating on behalf of those organizations? MRS. LeMESSURlER: Mr. Speaker, when this program came into being in 1974, we were using 60 per cent in kind and 40 per cent in cash. Due to pressure by the agencies we were dealing with, we changed and went to a program of 75 per cent in cash and 25 per cent in kind.

Of the approximately 50 agencies that received funding through our program this year, very few have not been able to use this in-kind method. The suggestion of using certain goods and supplies in the in-kind procedures comes from field representatives in the foreign countries. I would also like to add that at the present time we are actively doing a study on the 25 per cent in kind. DR. CARTER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Have there been any administrative problems in the third world on behalf of other governments that present difficulties with regard to this program? MRS.

LeMESSURlER: I don't think it's been on behalf of the other governments in the countries, Mr. Speaker; it's the regulations in some of the agencies themselves that are having the problem. DR. CARTER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Is the minister considering lifting these restrictions entirely? MRS. LeMESSURlER: Mr. Speaker, I did say that we are actively undertaking a study. But, as I stated earlier, there are very few organizations and agencies that are having a problem. We will look into the entire situation. MRS. EMBURY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Following the request of council for a specially designated fund for emergency needs, could the minister indicate what her decision is regarding this new request? MRS. LeMESSURlER: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I happened to be at that meeting when we did have a request from the agencies. Upon leaving that meeting, I met with various agencies to find out what moneys they had in their own agencies for emergencies and was very pleased to find out that the majority of agencies do have dollars on hand for emergency relief.

The majority of these dollars do come from moneys raised by and given to the agencies by the Alberta government. MRS. EMBURY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Is the amount of international assistance con tributed by our province remaining about the same, or is the amount increasing? MRS. LeMESSURlER: Mr. Speaker, that amount is actually calculated on the moneys raised by the public sector. At this time I don't know the exact number of dollars that have been raised. MR. GOGO: A supplementary question to the minister, Mr. Speaker.

Could the minister advise the House wheth er the Alberta government deals directly with third world countries, or does the Alberta government deal with ei ther a national body or agencies resident in Alberta fulfil ling that need in the third world countries? MRS. LeMESSURlER: Mr. Speaker, requests that come to the Alberta government are through various agencies that either have branches in Alberta or national offices in the east. If that is what my hon. colleague is asking, that's the answer. Agriculture Fuel Use MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My ques tion is to the Provincial Treasurer.

Could the minister tell the House if he is making any changes in the designation of fuel used for agricultural purposes? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I'm not contemplating recommending any changes of that kind at this time. Education for the Deaf MR. KUSHNER: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Advanced Education and Manpower. I've received representations from young deaf people who would like to take up a trade but at present are unable to obtain the required formal education, due to an apparent lack of interpreters at NAIT and SAIT.

My question to the hon. minister is: what steps has the minister's depart ment taken to provide adequate qualified staff at NAIT and SAIT for deaf people wishing to provide themselves with a career and make their contribution to the province of Alberta? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, this is a matter that has concerned the government. The programs now in place really are available in Edmonton through Alberta Col lege, which of course is a private college. Through pro grams funded through my department on a contract basis with that college, we are providing some interpreter serv ices for deaf students.

However, there is a shortage of such qualified interpre ters at the present time. As I understand it, those who are available, Mr. Speaker, are provided on a fee-for-service basis and have other types of employment as well. There fore, there are some difficulties in obtaining such interpreters. I would say that we have plans to utilize a portion of the program funds that I announced last year with regard to capabilities for training people to deal with situations of this kind. When those programs are in place, we expect that the number of interpreters will increase substantially.

I would like to indicate that if any members have specific cases of this nature, I would certainly appreciate their bringing them to my attention. 75th Anniversary MR. KNAAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minis ter of Municipal Affairs in his responsibility for the per capita grants under the 75th Anniversary distribution. There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the use of the funds. I wonder if the minister would clarify for the Assembly whether the per capita grant to municipalities can be used for new capital construction. MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, the answer quite clearly is yes.

The guidelines which went out in early January, which were provided I believe to all MLAs, do indicate in two or three areas — guideline number two suggests, for example, that a substantial portion of the funds should provide a lasting benefit. Guideline number four says that

March 28, 1980 ALBERTA HANSARD 127 projects of a capital or lasting nature must be completed within a reasonable time after the end of 1980. Guideline number five again refers to capital projects and the rela tionship to other provincial grants. I should say, however, that when it comes to capital projects a further guideline suggests that the municipality should not be using these funds for purely municipal purposes, such as roads or streets.

But for all other capital projects — recreation, culture, library facilities, and so on — municipalities are quite free to use the $20 per capita grant for capital projects. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, there are literally hundreds of capital projects going on and already established by municipalities throughout the province. MR. KNAAK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. In the guidelines it's not quite clear whether the funds can be used to add to existing capital projects. For instance, could funds be used to dome stadiums or extend parks? MR. MOORE: Mr.

Speaker, $20 per capita has to be borne in mind when we talk about doming stadiums. But certainly the funds can be used for additions to existing recreational structures or whatever, if that's the desire of the community. The guidelines are very broad and pro vide the greatest latitude to municipal governments to utilize these funds in a way which will provide lasting benefit, with the utmost flexibility for municipal councils to make their own decisions. MR. D. ANDERSON: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is to the hon. Minister responsible for Culture, with respect to the 75th Anniversary.

Could the minister indicate if the government has as yet determined a method of distribution for the encyclopedia within the province of Quebec? Specifically, is the minister consider ing a one-to-one presentation to people in that province in order to show our friendship with the people of Quebec? MRS. LeMESSURlER: Mr. Speaker, as the encyclope dia will not be ready to be distributed till about 1983 or early 1984, basically I don't think I'm in the position to answer that question. MRS. OSTERMAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the hon.

Minister of Government Services in his special capacity under the 75th commission. I think all members are aware there's been considerable discus sion about the budget for our anniversary. I wonder if the minister could give us the total of that budget now. MR. McCRAE: Mr. Speaker, we've struck a budget just under $75 million for the 75th Anniversary celebrations, and that involves all components of the celebrations. MRS. OSTERMAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister tell us if the expenditures to date would indicate that we're on budget? MR. McCRAE: Yes, Mr. Speaker. It is a large program.

It involves the municipal grants the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs just talked about, the encyclopedia project, and a number of other projects. But our intention right now is that — yes, we are on budget. We would hope to and are reasonably confident we can stay within the budget. MR. MAGEE: Mr. Speaker, could the hon. Minister of Education, in his responsibility for proposals submitted by Albertans for 75th Anniversary funding, please advise the House what criteria were used for the selection of projects being funded by the 75th Anniversary Commission? MR. KING: Mr.

Speaker, I can address myself to the criteria used by the cabinet committee in the final consid eration of projects recommended to them by the officers and staff of the 75th Anniversary Commission. I should say that before we considered these proposals, we had the benefit of the advice of the staff of the commission, and of advisory committees of knowledgeable Albertans deal ing with each special area. But I would say that the criteria of the cabinet committee were these. First of all, we wanted to support projects and pro grams that would be enjoyable and memorable in and of themselves.

We wanted to support programs that would be remembered by Albertans after 1980 is finished. Secondly, we wanted to support programs that would contribute to the lasting growth of talents and skills among Albertans. It is widely known that insofar as funding from the commission itself is concerned, we did not encourage, and in fact are not supporting, capital projects. We wanted to endorse the development of ta lents and skills rather than buildings. We wanted to support the development of talents and skills among younger people. As well, we wanted to recognize talents and skills that were already developed.

So we sought a mix of programs, fostered by people who had a reputa tion and wanted to develop a reputation. Thirdly, we wanted to expose as many Albertans as possible to the remembrance of the province's past and planning for the future. So we sought geographic distri bution. We sought to ensure the programs were not funded solely on the basis of merit if that was going to mean that potential development in rural areas or smaller centres would not be recognized. MR. MAGEE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister please indicate to the Assembly how many of the programs he has described were approved?

MR. KING: In total about 180 have been approved for funding by the 75th Anniversary Commission. There are still a very small number of proposals for which a deci sion is outstanding. Principally that's because they were received after the deadline we advertised to the public. Notwithstanding the fact that they came in after the deadline, we thought they had very considerable merit and so have under consideration about six or eight addi tional projects. But they will commit the very last of the funding that is available to the 75th Anniversary Com mission for this purpose.

In addition, I might say that of the approximately 180, I am responsible for approximately 113. The balance are the responsibility of the chairman of the cabinet commit tee the hon. Minister responsible for Culture, and the hon. Minister of Recreation and Parks, because they are related to the Festival of the Arts or to recreational and sporting activities. MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the last supplementary on this topic.

128 ALBERTA HANSARD March 28, 1980 MR. WEISS: Thank you. To the hon. minister. Would he reply to this Assembly how many applications were rejected, if 180 were approved? MR. KING: I don't think it's correct to characterize the balance of the applications as having been rejected. We received approximately 2,500 applications for financial support. It was extremely difficult to choose from among 2,500 the 180 that we thought most suited the criteria I have just described to you. We had to do it, though.

So a large number of the balance were referred to the local municipality because, in our view, they had local merit, they showed the promise of developing the kinds of ta lents and skills that I described earlier but were not of general application to the province. So those not funded by the 75th Anniversary Commis sion were not rejected because they lacked quality or merit; they were referred to other sources of funding — the municipalities or private corporations. MR. HIEBERT: Mr. Speaker, in light of the comments made by the hon.

Minister of Education about the proj ects not being capital intensive and the concern that projects should have lasting permanent value, my ques tion is directed to the Minister responsible for Culture. What current information could the minister share with the House that would make Albertans confident we would be getting full value from our Canadian encyclo pedia and that the publication will not just end up being a dust collector on our shelves? MR. SPEAKER: With great respect, this could very well launch a debate on the merits of the encyclopedia.

I would question whether such an outright request for opinion should qualify for the question period. Alberta Research Council MR. PAHL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to direct my question to the hon. Member for Calgary McKnight in view of his responsibilities as chairman of the Alberta Research Council. In view of his announcement earlier this week, could he advise the House just why the Alberta Research Council, in view of its important links with the University of Alberta, needs to move from a location where, I understand, it has spent about 60 years? MR. MUSGREAVE: Mr.

Speaker, the facility we have at the university campus is about 25 years old and is very, very small for our present needs. One of the objectives of the long-range plan was to try to become more involved with industry, and what better place to do that than in an industrial area. As far as retaining our links with the university, we have two members on our board now: one is the vice-president of graduate studies from the Univer sity of Calgary, the other is a vice-president from the University of Alberta in Edmonton.

We also have one of our senior managers responsible for liaison with the uni versity environment throughout the province. MR. PAHL: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps the member could advise the House just how the Alberta Research Council will relate to the Edmonton Research and Development Park in the dynamic constituency of Edmonton Mill Woods. MR. MUSGREAVE: Mr. Speaker, it is practically across the road from the Edmonton research park which, I should point out, was designed by international consul tants. We think it's an excellent neighbour for us to have.

But because of our mandate to be involved with research with industry, universities, and new technology and peo ple, we want to make sure we have the flexibility that may not be available to us if we were within the Edmonton park. Also we wanted more land than was available. MR. D. ANDERSON: Mr. Speaker, could the hon. member indicate whether alternative sites, say the Univer sity of Calgary or the University of Lethbridge, were considered? If so, why were they not chosen over the site in Mill Woods? MR. MUSGREAVE: Mr.

Speaker, many sites were cho sen, and we spent many thousands of tax dollars deter mining where the best site should be. But after the parameters were worked through, it was decided that the site we chose in the Edmonton region was the best. That's not to say, though, that in the future we want to have a presence in southern Alberta. We'd also like to have a presence in northern Alberta as well as in the main centres. MR. D. ANDERSON: A further supplementary question to the hon. member. Could he identify why the site was determined to be the best compared to others in the province? MR.

MUSGREAVE: Very simply, Mr. Speaker, first of all, there was the problem of moving 450 people, a third of them professional people, who are very difficult to recruit at the best of times. Secondly, we wanted to be near an international airport. We wanted a large block of land, which was not available in southern Alberta. I could go on to give several more reasons, but I think those are the most important ones. Family Home Purchase Program MRS. CHICHAK: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the hon. Minister of Housing and Public Works.

On March 14 the hon. minister announced sever al housing incentive programs. I want to relate my ques tion to the Alberta family home purchase program. I've had representations with respect to the announcement of that program as to the maximum house price limitations on homes that might become eligible under this program. I wonder if the hon. minister could advise what criteria were used to determine that the maximum eligibility price of $63,360 for new homes was an adequate maximum price and, insofar as existing units are concerned, a maximum ceiling price of $53,200?

Those making repre sentations to me have indicated that there appears to be a real difficulty finding units within those price ranges. MR. CHAMBERS: Mr. Speaker, the prices the Member for Edmonton Norwood is referring to are the loan amounts. The actual maximums have been increased from $64,000 to $70,000 for new homes, and up to $56,000 for existing homes. It's a subjective thing, a matter of judgment. The board of the Alberta Home Mortgage Corporation assesses these numbers on a regular basis.

Obviously when one thinks about gross debt service ratios, it's important to keep the price as low as possible, because the amount of mortgage payment is related directly to the price. * *See page 151, left column, paragraphs 11 and 12

March 28, 1980 ALBERTA HANSARD 129 Of course the size of the house is controlled: 110 square metres for a bungalow, 120 for a two-storey. It's been found in the past, though, that these prices have been well accepted by the industry, and the relatively modest home that it's possible to create within those prices are well accepted by the public. We think the current maximums we've established will result in the creation of 5,500 starts this year. MRS. CHICHAK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the hon. minister could advise further whether he has had any indication currently with respect to the very high interest rates, whether this new announcement still enables them to have substantial activity. In this short period of time, has the minister had any response from the industry? MR. CHAMBERS: Mr. Speaker, I think the answer to that is, fairly, yes. In discussing the question with officials of the Home Mortgage Corporation, their telephones have been very busy. There's a lot of activity. Of course it's too soon to put actual numbers to it, but the interest is certainly there.

Advertising Policy MR. OMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed either to the Minister responsible for Personnel Administration or the Minister of Advanced Education and Manpower. On Saturday, March 1, an ad appeared in the The Calgary Herald under the heading of SAIT, asking, "Is your husband a carpenter?" I gather this ad has sparked an inquiry by the Human Rights Commission as to whether this was a violation of human rights. I would like the ministers to indicate what directives they are giving to their institutions or personnel people for that kind of advertising. MR. STEVENS: Mr.

Speaker, my colleague the Minister of Advanced Education and Manpower may wish to supplement my answer. The advertisement the member refers to appeared in one issue, I understand, of the major newspaper circulating in Calgary. I understand the adver tising director has apologized for the advertisement in the newspaper, and I also would here and now apologize for this advertisement. Since 1971 the government's policy has been that no advertising of positions would include sexist comments of that nature.

A citizen brought that to my attention; I have advised the citizen that our policy is to advertise for candidates equally, with qualifications, background, and/ or training for the positions. MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, if I could just supple ment that answer very briefly. It's my understanding that the administration of the Southern Alberta Institute of Technology has indicated quite clearly that such adver tisements will not be utilized in the future. On behalf of the administration, I would like to advise the Assembly that an apology has been properly made. MR. COOK: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.

I wonder if I might make a point that the hon. members in the opposition seem not to be really paying attention to the question period today . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. May the hon. Minister of Agriculture revert to Intro duction of Special Guests? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS (reversion) MR. SCHMIDT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's indeed a pleasure this morning to introduce to you, and through you to the members of this Assembly, 25 students from the Pigeon Lake regional high school. They're attended by their teacher Mr.

John Strembitsky and are seated in the public gallery. I would ask them to rise and receive the usual welcome of this Assembly. ORDERS OF THE DAY head: GOVERNMENT BILLS AND ORDERS (Third Reading) Bill 15 The Appropriation (Interim Supply) Act, 1980 MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I move third reading of Bill No. 15, The Appropriation (Interim Supply) Act, 1980. [Motion carried; Bill 15 read a third time] MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, His Honour the Honourable the Lieutenant-Governor will now attend upon the Assembly. [Mr. Speaker left the Chair] head: ROYAL ASSENT SERGEANT-AT-ARMS: Order!

His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. [His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor took his place upon the Throne] HIS HONOUR: Be seated, please. MR. SPEAKER: May it please Your Honour, the Legis lative Assembly has, at its present sitting, passed a certain Bill to which, and in the name of the Legislative Assem bly, I respectfully request Your Honour's assent.

CLERK: Your Honour, the following is the title of the Bill to which Your Honour's assent is prayed: Bill 15, The Appropriation (Interim Supply) Act, 1980. [The Lieutenant-Governor indicated his assent] CLERK: In Her Majesty's name, His Honour the Honourable the Lieutenant-Governor doth assent to this Bill.

130 ALBERTA HANSARD March 28, 1980 SERGEANT-AT-ARMS: Order! [The Lieutenant-Governor left the House] [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: CONSIDERATION OF HIS HONOUR THE LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR'S SPEECH Moved by Dr.

Reid: That an humble address be presented to His Honour the Honourable the Lieutenant-Governor of Alberta as follows: To His Honour the Honourable Frank Lynch-Staunton, Lieutenant-Governor of the province of Alberta: We, Her Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Legislative Assembly, now assembled, beg leave to thank Your Honour for the gracious speech Your Honour has been pleased to address to us at the opening of the present session. [Adjourned debate March 26: Mr. Weiss] MR. WEISS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is indeed an honor to reply to the throne speech.

First I'd like to congratulate the Member for Edson and the Member for Edmonton Mill Woods for their contrib utions to this debate. Mr. Speaker, last year at this time I had the honor of attending this Assembly for the first time. I would like to quote a little paragraph from what I said in reply to His Honour's speech last year: I would like to apologize, Mr. Speaker, for the lack of congratulatory innuendoes I might pass on this evening because, representing the largest constit uency in Alberta, I have only half an hour to do it in. If I'm going to congratulate every one of you, I just won't have the time.

Well, Mr. Speaker, I would like to take the time this session. I'd like to say congratulations to you for the sobriety you bring to this House. We certainly look for entertainment, but I think we can look to other corridors and avenues for it. As a member of this government, I am very pleased that we try to bring legislation and represent this government in a realistic manner. I'm sure the hon. members of the government are of that opinion as well. Mr. Speaker, I welcome His Honour the Lieutenant- Governor, Frank Lynch-Staunton. I'm sure he will serve well in his capacity.

It's notable that the ex-Lieutenant Governor has gone on, not to sit idle in his retirement, but has accepted a new challenge in a position that will serve his people and our country as well. Mr. Speaker, as I have pointed out, Lac La Biche- McMurray, located in the northeast corner of this prov ince, is the largest constituency in the province. Within its boundaries are the major centres of Fort McMurray, Lac La Biche, and Fort Chipewyan, which is the oldest community in Alberta, and many centres such as Wand ering River, Plamondon, Fort MacKay, Anzac, Janvier, and Cheecham.

Of course, within its boundaries are the huge tapped and untapped reserves of the Athabasca oil sands. I would like you to know, Mr. Speaker, that we in Fort McMurray and area do not believe that these oil sands belong just to Fort McMurray. They belong to the citizens of Alberta. I am proud to represent the area. I'm not a theologian, historian, philosopher and, pray tell, not even a public speaker. But I do believe I am a realist, and I'll continue to work at representing my constituents in a responsible manner.

I believe that is why they elected me and sent me here, to try to do that job and be a liaison for them. Mr. Speaker, as it is difficult to speak on the constitu ency as a whole, given the vastness and diversity of the constituency, I have chosen to talk about some of the regions and the major urban centres. In 1961 Fort McMurray's population was about 1,200. In 1967, follow ing the construction of Great Canadian Oil Sands, the town climbed to 8,000. Ten years later the population shot up to nearly 25,000, and now surpasses the 25,000 mark.

This second surge of growth, largely as a result of the Syncrude project, has placed a number of demands on the community in coping with the problems rapid growth brings. I am proud to say, Mr. Speaker, that the Progressive Conservative government met the challenge of providing leadership and responsibility in assisting the new town of Fort McMurray develop. The Alberta Housing Corpora tion was instrumental in helping provide housing for the growing population. Schools were built and a regional hospital is well under construction. Mr.

Speaker, upon hearing the throne speech that was read last Thursday by the Honourable Lieutenant- Governor, I am proud to say that I am part of this government, which has as its four priorities housing, hospitals, highways and roads, and manpower training. It is my hope that over the next few years our government will continue to emphasize housing and endeavor to pro vide adequate housing at a reasonable cost to all citizens. The Syncrude project is nearly completed, but we are faced with many more years of rapid, unpredictable growth in our area.

Recent studies indicate that the town of Fort McMurray will have a population of some 35,000 by 1985. The expansion of Great Canadian Oil Sands — now known as Suncor — and Syncrude, along with the proposed Alsands project north of Fort McMurray, which is located not far from Fort MacKay, could result in a new community when the project is approved and will probably present many challenges to this govern ment. Mr. Speaker, I'm confident this government can and will meet these challenges. No one can justly accuse this government of being concerned only with securing a better oil deal with Ottawa.

I will fully support the Premier in the firm stand he has taken on receiving a fair price for our depleting oil and natural gas, and I wish to state that this government is concerned with people and with people problems, a lot of which are happening right in the Lac La Biche- McMurray constituency. And a lot has happened; in the new town of Fort McMurray, for example, a lot that we are proud of. We are looking forward to the opening of the new provincial hospital in May. This 150-bed hospital is an example of the government's fine health care facili ties provided for the future, at a cost of some $41 million.

Construction is starting on a $17 million provincial build ing. This should be completed by mid-1982 — just anoth er fine example of what our government is doing. We have many projects under way, Mr. Speaker, some of which I would like to inform you of. A $14 million bridge is being constructed at Fort MacKay. This will develop and allow access to the much needed tar sands and area. We look forward to the twinning of Highway 63 within the town boundaries to ease the traffic situa tion. The expansion of Thickwood Heights in the new Dickensfield area, just opened up by the hon.

Minister of Housing and Public Works, provides for more homes, much needed within our area. We asked for this last year;

March 28, 1980 ALBERTA HANSARD 131 these demands were met. Last year the hon. Minister of Education officially opened the new Father Beauregard community education centre; one of the finest in the area, showing a community centre can involve people in both the education and recreation fields. As well as normal grants for the recreation and culture boards and the municipal debt reduction of over $12 million, we're delighted to have been able to formalize agreements through the co-operation of the hon.

Minister of Municipal Affairs to obtain up to 10 mills' tax transfer from ID 18 to assist in the annual budget of the new town of Fort McMurray. I might add, Mr. Speaker, that this is concern. Here was a new town that was rapidly growing. We had problems; we had a strained budget. We now have a five-year commitment from this provincial gov ernment of up to 10 mills, approximately $1 million per year for five years, to ease this budget for our community. Over and above that, the social needs of the people are being met.

We have the opening of the detoxification centre under the Alberta Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Commission. A youth assessment centre has been opened. We do have other problems, and we hope we can resolve these as well, Mr. Speaker. While the new subre- gional plan did not make any commitment or allowance for acreage development, I am pleased with our ongoing and current discussions with the hon. Associate Minister of Public Lands and Wildlife, and am confident we can resolve this matter together.

I look forward to the continued development of McKenzie industrial park, through the co-operation of the Alberta Housing Corporation. A new courthouse is being constructed this year, and tenders are being called at an estimated cost of up to $5 million. Mr. Speaker, the amount allocated for new construc tion in the Lac La Biche and Fort McMurray regions — and I will describe the Lac La Biche area in a few minutes — represents many millions of dollars in this constitu ency, and in total represents in excess of $100 million.

Over and above that, there's many thousands of dollars for operational fixed costs and administration costs. Can anybody say those are signs of a government that doesn't care? It doesn't just take money; it takes interest, sinceri ty, dedication, and responsible planning. Mr. Speaker, nobody can say our good government does not listen or is not trying to improve the quality of life for its citizens. Yes, along the way we'll make mis takes. But show me any government that has accomplish ed what this government has over the past eight and a half years.

The actions of this government speak much louder than those in the opposition would lead us to believe. The problems are numerous and the programs go on. But as I've said before, I'm confident we can meet these challenges; the two ministerial statements are just two of many things yet to happen. And I'm proud to be part of it. I'm sure we look forward in years ahead to many more programs for all Albertans. In 1980 I also look forward to the new town of Fort McMurray taking one giant step forward and becoming the fourth largest city in Alberta.

Mind you: fourth for now, but growing fast, and who knows just how big. Watch out, Edmonton and Calgary. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to move over to the Lac La Biche area. Many exciting things are also happening within that area and that community. We've recently had approval of the new Lac La Biche General Hospital. It provides 69 active beds and 25 auxiliary units to our community at a cost of approximately $10 million. Construction is now under way on the new $6 million provincial building. Increased development of oil and gas activity in the area is of prime significance.

Alberta Energy's interest lies in the estimated 12 billion barrels of heavy oil, and the encouragement of a pilot plant in the Primrose area is most welcome. This activity will permit development of much needed access roads, supported by all communities in the area including Fort McMurray. I refer to the Conklin road. It will give Fort McMurray another access. At present, as most people are aware, we only have one road into the area, Highway 63. This area will develop tourism, recreation, and resource. It's a much welcomed addition to that area.

Joint involvement with the federal government through their programs to develop a coverall manufacturing plant, which would employ native personnel from the Caslan colony, is continuing today. Ongoing discussions are be ing held in this community today, with a meeting with the regional economic development council. I'm sorry I could not be with them to add my support, but they're aware I had to be here. I'm very pleased.

This project is similar to the successful Beaver Lake parka factory, which is oper ated by the Beaver Lake Band, successfully employing natives within their own community and enabling them to be a part of our society. The town of Lac La Biche has now opened a 20-lot industrial park to accommodate growth and, with assist ance through the hon. Minister of Housing of Public Works, is opening up a 100-lot home development. We look forward to the continued upgrading of the Lac La Biche Alberta Vocational Centre.

We're hopeful of a contemplated expansion and development of this success ful Alberta vocational learning centre. The Lac La Biche fishermen's co-op has just come through a most successful year. This year their members can be proud of a net profit of some $13,000. Mr. Speaker, it should be noted that a first was introduced from this area. I would like to table with this Assembly a sample of golden caviar from Canadian lake whitefish. This is a first for Canada. This will be marketed in Los Angeles, the United States, and all through North Ameri ca.

You've all heard of Russian caviar; we now have Alberta-produced and -marketed caviar. [applause] I'm very proud of the dedication of these people, pre dominantly native, in their efforts to see this to successful fruition. While tourism will continue to play a major role in the Lac La Biche region, it should be pointed out that the area is also very strong in both agriculture and cattle marketing. Lac La Biche is becoming recognized as a major cattle shipping point. The hog problem: I'm sure the people there are as concerned as in any area. We're pleased to note the situation is in hand.

The main reason the Lac La Biche area attracts recrea tion enthusiasts and sports fishermen is of course the Lac La Biche Pow-Wow Days and Fish Derby; not only on those specific days, though, but all year round. Within a 50-mile radius of Lac La Biche are more than 70 per cent of Alberta's class 1 beaches. Come on out there some day, folks. Come out on the weekend and enjoy yourselves. It's beautiful — some of the finest area in all Alberta. I'd like to fly you up to Fort Chipewyan. When I say "fly", Mr. Speaker, it's because that's one of the only ways to get to that community.

Fort Chipewyan — the oldest community in Alberta, as I have mentioned — is only accessible by air, water, or snowmobile. There is no road to that community, and that is a very serious problem facing that area.

132 ALBERTA HANSARD March 28, 1980 We hope to be able to assist this community by devel oping a new community centre and a senior citizens' residence. But I would request that all members of this House assist me in addressing the three most serious problems facing this community. One is the isolation, and the need for roads, as I've pointed out. This year I had the opportunity to make an annual trek by snowmobile to visit this community some 180 miles from Fort McMurray, and on another 120 miles to Fort Smith: a total distance of some 600 miles by snowmobile.

We do this to dedicate what we call the Muffaloose Trail. We hope this road will be a reality some day. The people need it. We urge your support. The second prime interest to these people, Mr. Speak er, is the need for water. I can appreciate this might become a political decision. But we as legislators are going to be forced to meet that. I would hope the decision lies with this Assembly. I don't think it's a demand that any of us should be without, or that we should create this problem for any community.

The third important point facing the Fort Chipewyan people is the ever-increasing situation of alcohol-related problems. We must now take a strong stance and help these people through prevention or education. One smaller community in my area is called Plamon- don, predominately comprised of French descendants. This community demands very little of the provincial government. We've just seen the completion of a new senior citizens' home, a six-unit centre. It was very welcome to the community.

This community is so self- supporting that their demands to government are little, but their community involvement and participation could be ranked amongst the highest. I would like to play a compliment to the this community; the citizens of this community can be very proud of what they have done and what they accomplish. In Wandering River we have just seen tenders being called for the proposed new $400,000 water system. We hope to see this commence in the spring and look forward to continued growth within that community. I might mention, Mr.

Speaker, that this is almost a new commu nity, having grown up overnight. We'll work hard in an endeavor to open new lots to accommodate the demands and needs of the people in this area. In some of our native centres, Mr. Speaker — we have one in particular, the community of Anzac. The provin cial government was successful in implementing the land tenure program, providing many new families with their own deeded property. This is a very first and pre dominant step in this area. I might mention the citizens are very proud of this accomplishment, and today are going to take

part in building and developing their centre themselves. They will now own their land for $1. They'll work on building this community themselves, and hope fully will install and put back some of the pride in the heritage they have had as a people in the past. I would also like to commend the Anzac citizens' association for working hard and closely with the government in seeing this become a reality as well. Mr. Speaker, I was pleased with the government's deci sion regarding the permanent location for Athabasca University. I fully support this government's policy of decentralization.

My constituency is the home of one North America's most unique community colleges, Keyano College, located in Fort McMurray. As well, we have the Alberta Vocational Centre in Lac La Biche. Comments have been made about the distance, the staff problems, the housing. We have some of those too, Mr. Speaker. But I would also like the members of this Assembly to know that [while] the units and centres are located 120 miles and 300 miles respectively from Edmon ton, the urban centre, we have some of the finest teachers around. These people are the pillars of our society in our communities.

At every meeting you go to, these people play a predominant role within our areas. We're proud of them. I don't think you'd find any one of them who'd want to relocate to the major centre. We think it's home; it's home to them. We're pleased to have them, and I'm sure Athabasca will look to a continual growth and will have many new people within their community as well. Mr. Speaker, I was also pleased with the government's decision to expand the educational program of the Alber ta Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Commission.

AADAC, as it is known, has been established in Fort McMurray for some time, and Lac La Biche, and has made admir able effort to provide counsel. But ongoing assistance must be made in both the financial and the personal aspect. I look forward to working with this group in the next year. Mr. Speaker, I too was encouraged by the govern ment's decision to continue with the urban native referral program, with increased emphasis on recruitment and training programs. Training programs for people in my constituency have taken great leaps forward.

The em ployment of natives by Suncor and Syncrude has shown a dedication to equality in human rights. Mr. Speaker, I would like to commend the 75th Anni versary for their dedication, their interest, their perse verance in implementing this program and going out to the rural communities, in my constituency in particular. I would like it to be known to members of this Assembly and to my constituents as well that not one project suf fered as a result of this decision or this funding for this project. And as in any birthday, there must be a celebra tion and gifts.

They're not all goodies, but they're not all baddies either. Mr. Speaker, when we hear the budget speech, I'm sure we will see that it plays a very small role in the overall budget of Alberta. But the participation by citizens will be great. Earlier I raised the question with the hon. Minister of Education about the number of requests that had been — I used the term "rejected", though it was not apt — for participation and involvement in this project.

I raised it not to show how many people were not able to take advantage of the program, but to show the Assembly the sincere interest and active involvement by the number of persons out there in those communities. This is a people's program. The government is not going to run this pro gram. It's going out to the people and to the municipali ties. The funding is there for them to give to the people, and how best they can utilize and work these programs within their area. Mr. Speaker, I'm confident our munici palities and our areas will spend this money and use it widely for all the citizens within our areas.

I would like to go back and think for a minute, Mr. Speaker, take stock of why we as legislators are here. It's been an interesting year to me. I've attended some 200 meetings. I've answered 1400-plus telephone calls. That's surprising, but it's a true figure; we have kept track over this past year. I've made many visitations on a once-a- month basis to my Lac La Biche constituency: to the Fort Chipewyan region, to Wandering River.

For the last year I've attended approximately two and one-half days in Edmonton for various meetings, as well as attending openings, as some hon. members of the opposition would refer to them. I look at those as the plums; I think of the

March 28, 1980 ALBERTA HANSARD 133 others as the work. The 300-odd letters I've written to concerned constituencies — I think we, as government, make ourselves available, and that's why we're here as legislators, not as entertainers. Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned before, I thank you for bringing that sobriety to this Assembly. The people out there is where it's at. It's a real world in that constituency. I'm never going to forget that. In closing, Mr. Speaker, I would like to read two or three sentences that I have in my constituency office and in my office in the Legislature Building. I ask you to bear with me.

It says: Regrettably to some, but hopefully understandable to all, my order of priorities are as follows: 1. My family 2. My constituents 3. My government Please allow me to maintain them so I may meet the challenges before me. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. [applause] MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to thank you very much for the opportunity of speaking at this time. I'd like to offer my congratulations to you, Mr. Speaker, in your office. Also my congratulations to the new Lieutenant-Governor, and certainly the mover and se conder of the Speech from the Throne, who did a very fine job.

My remarks today may not excite the thumping and the reactions I had just a few moments ago, because I feel that some things should be said and an attitude should be conveyed to the government about the operation and the leadership that is occurring at the present time. I would like to make my criticisms under this proposal: since 1971, after nine years in office, the government has become a government I would class as reactionary, an organization of people reacting after the fact in many situations rather than showing the leadership it had in 1971. The goals, objectives, enthusiasm we had in 1971 have been lost.

Mr. Speaker, that is a sad situation with regard to the administration of the affairs of the govern ment of Alberta and the affairs of the province of Alber ta. I'd like to give some examples of where that happens in the administration of this Conservative government. First of all, take the example of the Minister of Social Services and Community Health. Over the last two or three years, we've had situations occurring that could have been predicted and avoided.

For example, when we discussed the Metis files a year ago, we said to the minister: go into the details, look at the situation, act quickly, call an inquiry and find out what's going wrong. The minister said: I've got it in hand, I trust my officials, they're going to look after it. Finally we forced the situa tion. He had to do his homework and come up with some answers. The very same kind of situation occurred with West- field. We had to create a political bump, a pressure out in the public. After the minister realized he was in trouble, he reacted.

The one before us at the present time is certainly the concern we have with treatment in the northern residential treatment centre in the Peace River country. The minister and his assistants kept saying: things are all right; this happened and it won't happen again; we have it hand; we won't have an inquiry. The public of Alberta had to react, had to show their concern through the opposition members of the Legislature. Fin ally the minister reacted by doing something. Mr. Speak er, that's not the way a government should operate.

In the programs he leads in this province, the minister should show some organization; should show guidance, not reac tion; compassion, not blindness; and encouragement, not punishment. Let's look at the Minister of Environment for a few moments. The Bow River. When the questioning started in the last session, we asked the minister, what are you doing about the pollution in the Bow River? Well, I have a two-year study, some predict it will be completed in 1980, the end of 1980, or 1981. What did we have to do?

His own backbencher finally had to get the minister out in the river to show him the pollution that existed out there; had to create pressure from the public. Then he reacted. So in the speech here, we have the minister saying he will announce something during the current session. [interjection] I certainly hope there is a good announcement. I hope that financial support and aid for the city to eliminate that pollution in the river occurs quickly and efficiently, as it should. But before anything happened, we had to have pressure, then reaction; not really leadership, I think.

Those problems are there, and have been researched over the last 10 years. There are some good studies with regard to the Bow River that indicated the pollution was there, and that something should have been done. Let's look at the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Interest rates, high rental rates — the minister didn't have any answers in question period yesterday. He didn't know what was going to happen to rent controls, whether we'd keep some in some areas. What will hap pen? It's happening out there right now.

Senior citizens and people on fixed incomes are already phoning and saying: we've got a problem; our rent is going up 30 per cent, $25 more a month; I can't afford it. If it doesn't happen before the end of this spring session, I'm sure that after the increases on July 1 we'll have the minister scrambling to do something in the fall session. Mr. Speaker, that's just not good enough, when we know the problem is here. Thinking, not complacency, should go on at the present time. Mr. Speaker, let's look at the Minister of Agriculture for a moment or two.

The announcement the minister made last Wednesday with regard to ADC loans was needed, and will certainly benefit young farmers across this province. I have no criticism of the announcement itself. But back in January, in February, last December, last November, young farmers were told that if they wanted to have lower priced land and start planning their farming year for 1980, to make agreements with regard to land. Most farmers selling their land say that March 31 is the final date by which they want to conclude an agree ment. This announcement takes effect on April 1. It causes problems, Mr. Speaker.

We knew the problem was coming. We knew there were young farmers who wanted to get into the farming business. We knew there was a problem last fall. It was raised in the Legislature. But now we have reacted. Mr. Speaker, I think that has to be examined in this government. We knew two years ago that we were going to have problems with the hog marketing situation. We had to react by putting in place a council to supersede the powers of the board. I think that's just another reaction to the situation. The Minister of Municipal Affairs.

With regard to The Planning Act and land-use by-laws, we're living with leg islation passed in 1977 by the present Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs. At that time, the govern ment indicated that municipalities would pass land-use

134 ALBERTA HANSARD March 28, 1980 by-laws by, I believe, March 31 this year. Now the date has been extended into September, because there is pres sure and confusion. People are not sure they want to be controlled, not sure they want their freedom and rights of property to be taken away, and they're reacting to the MD councils. But what kind of leadership has the present govern ment given with regards to land-use by-laws? What kind of philosophy? Who is really sending out the attitudes towards land-use by-laws? The planners of this province are doing it.

What is their thrust with regard to develop ment by-laws? Their thrust is to have controlled devel opment in the province of Alberta. Development and entrepreneurism are not encouraged. They want to con trol individual farmers, small businesses, small towns, and urban centres as much as possible; control going out to the bureaucratic system.

If this government is really conservative, which means it believes in individual free dom, and believes that individuals will take responsibility not only for their private property but for their neighbors' interest, then a philosophy would have been engendered in The Planning Act and put forward with regard to rural MD by-laws that said: the by-laws should not control people but should enhance their living conditions and encourage initiative from individuals. That isn't the case at the present time. I've just gone through two or three of the hearings in various munici palities.

The by-laws are being written by the planners, not the people. Is this government trying to come up with any philosophy? No leadership. There will be a reaction in this coming year, but the government will say, well, we didn't think about it. Then they may react again. [interjection] Mr. Speaker, my hon. friend from Pincher Creek says it's the municipality's responsibility. How dumb can any thing be? Who set up The Planning Act and its philoso phy? This government rammed it through the House and onto the people of Alberta.

Now the grass roots have to live with the planning and the leadership that didn't occur at that time. [interjection] Mr. Speaker, if the Minister of Municipal Affairs be lieves in a more socialist approach to planning in this province, I'd be pleased if he'd stand in his place and commit himself to that in this Legislature. If he doesn't really believe in it, then let's change the Act and allow a little more freedom in the province of Alberta. How does the Minister of Labour deal with and react to the situation?

The Individual's Rights Protection Act — yesterday or earlier in question period, with regard to allowing disadvantaged groups the possibility of better advantages in gaining employment, the minister said he wasn't sure where he stands. He doesn't know how to handle the situation. He doesn't really know the defini tion of some types of positive discrimination. Mr. Speaker, I think we put him in as Minister of Labour to find out the best definition, to lead in this whole area of labor relations, and to determine what he feels is the best idea and tell us. But no, he is waiting for pressure to grow.

I hope Bill 201, which I presented in this Legislature, creates pressure in the province. If that's the way the government reacts, if that's the only way we get the government to make some realistic decisions, we'll help that happen. Last fall and earlier this year, the minister knew this concept and this whole concern of the Human Rights Commission existed. But what has happened? We haven't even got answers to the question yet, Mr. Speaker. I hope he can take some leadership now.

Maybe it's the last hour, but take Bill 201 that I presented to the Legislature, make it a government Bill, and show some leadership in that area. What about the Provincial Treasurer reacting to the situation? That was a good announcement today. I really thought that had some foresight, some insight, and was a good announcement. I really appreciated what he had done. [applause] Up to this point I really hadn't seen any initiatives from our Provincial Treasurer, except keeping the accounts.

But that was good insight as to what is happening in our economy of 1980, '81, '82, and '83: very good insight with regard to what can happen to pension plans, and the pressure we're going to receive from Ottawa and other provinces of Canada to take not only some of our surplus funds but funds from the Heritage Savings Trust Fund. I want to congratulate the minister for predicting the kind of troubles we'll have in the next two or three years. That was a good thing.

The concern I had prior to that announcement was: certainly the Heritage Savings Trust Fund is sitting there, we've not seen any guidelines or real leadership from the Provincial Treasurer, and groups come in and say they need some money from the Heritage Savings Trust Fund and, if the pressure gets great enough, we give them some money. I don't think that's quite right, Mr. Speaker. What about our Minister of Energy and Natural Re sources? I think the biggest responsibility he has with regard to this Assembly and the people of Alberta is our oil sands development.

What program has this govern ment placed before us? It's a plant-by-plant development in the oil sands. Well, what kinds of problems? It may develop the oil sands, but what about economic condi tions, what about social conditions? The policy of this government doesn't answer either of those. We have big booms in the economy in those areas, then we have dips; another boom, then another dip. What kind of planning and foresight is that? With regard to social problems, we know what hap pened in the Fort McMurray area. The statistics show that social problems just bumped right up.

There's some control, some programming being put in place, and they're starting to level out. But if the oil sands goes ahead, the same thing is going to happen: up, down, up, down. Where these kinds of things are predictable, some type of plan could be put together. I conclude about the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources and say he will react one of these days, and something comprehensive may come on the table. What about our Minister of Federal and Intergovern mental Affairs with regard to the same type of thing? What does he do? He waits for Ottawa to react. I don't know what else he does.

I really don't know what else he's reacting to, because I haven't heard too much from him. DR. BUCK: It's a nice retirement. MR. R. SPEAKER: A nice retirement job and pension. But his whole philosophy is: wait for Ottawa to call us, then we'll react. That's so contrary to the philosophy of the original six Conservatives in this House that I just can't believe it. He has never read the Hansards or the history. I can remember when the Provincial Treasurer, the Hon. Lou Hyndman, stood in his place here day after day and said to us as a Socred government, go to Ottawa, go to Ottawa.

He was listing all kinds of things. Go to Ottawa. I can see him standing here with his glasses day after day saying that.

March 28, 1980 ALBERTA HANSARD 135 Well, we took his advice a few times and went to Ottawa and solved a number of problems. But now what's happening? [interjections] The secret of this whole thing is that I saw a big fault in 1970, and I'm telling you people about it at this time. Why don't the fellows look at history just a bit? Here we have another minister, com placent and happy, ready for his pension, ready to react: don't push me too hard, because Canada's going to be great in the world of nations and I will do what I have to and react when I have to. What about our new Minister of Economic Develop ment?

I thought that maybe his first comment after taking on the portfolio still prevails. He said, I really don't want to do anything, because if I don't, I won't make a mistake. It was something to that effect. I'm not sure just how he's applying that, but we haven't heard too much about economic development and about small business development in the province of Alberta. I'm not sure what he's going to react to one of these days, but I hope he reacts to something and comes up with a few ideas. Our Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care: a very good announcement the other day.

We well know, and I know from this side of the House, that from 1975 to 1979, over and over again we asked the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care at that time to listen to the people, to hear their needs, that hospitals should be built across this province. What did we get? He was planning, he was freezing, and just ignoring the fact that hospital costs were going up, that there were long waiting lists in most of the hospitals. All that data was tabulated and recorded in this Assembly. But not a thing. Then a good move. The Premier put a person into the portfolio who, I think, listened.

I think that's where he got his ideas. He made a good announcement and reacted to the problem out there. But what has happened in the meantime? The cost of the hospitals that will be built in these next few years will be unbelievable, much higher. To compensate, what is happening in the planning? Rooms are made smaller, certain facilities are cut down, so we can meet the announcements. That has to be done. There's no alternative. But we've lost a lot of good facili ties and initiative in the province of Alberta, because we waited till we had to react. That's an unfortunate situation.

It wasn't necessary, because in 1975 we had the money we have today to spend on those very facilities. Mr. Speaker, that kind of reactionary situation is not good. There was nothing wrong with the announcement, but it had to come after all kinds of pressure. What else? We're in a situation now where the hospital workers are negotiating salaries, and there's concern about a shortage of nurses. The government is saying, well, they're negotiating, there are ups and downs. The minister said: these kinds of fluctuations are occurring and we're not overly concerned; I think it's going to work itself out.

My hon. colleague mentioned in the House two or three times that nurses and hospital workers are getting concerned. Because of their positions they feel they can't strike, but they can resign. It would be unbelievable if we forced them into that kind of position. As a government, we should be thinking about the problem now, planning, and heading it off before it actually happens. One worker phoned me this morning, just out of the blue, and said, do you know the differences in rates between Alberta and B.C. at the present time? I said, well, give me some figures.

He said nurses are averaging maybe $500 a month difference. Housekeeping, as a job, for example: in Alberta they're getting, with the proposed increase, $869 a month; in British Columbia, with bonuses and other benefits, it amounts to $1,405. Mr. Speaker, that's a very significant difference. If I were a single nurse just starting out my career, I wouldn't stop in Alberta. I'd be heading off to B.C. For $600 a month I could pay my travelling costs in one month. [interjection] Mr. Speaker, the problem is there. I think we have to plan, think ahead, and be responsible and not complacent DR.

BUCK: And then a nurse supports that stand. MR. R. SPEAKER: . . . as we see it at the present time. It's there. Every one of these ministers is highly paid. We get enough money for our jobs. That's not my complaint. We do it on a full-time basis. There are executive assist ants, all kinds of research staff in every one of these departments. Those problems can be tabulated and dealt with, without waiting for a point where we have to react to the situation. What about the Minister of Education? He has certain problems that he gets great headlines over. That's his problem, not my problem.

In the last two or three ses sions, we've talked about the goals of education. Well, since the hon. member has been minister, I recall his making a speech on it, but I don't know of a strategy or a discussion in this Assembly as to how those goals of education have been put in place in a comprehensive way so they permeate the system of education in the province of Alberta. What are we going to wait for? When is the minister going to show he has a comprehensive approach to education in the province? I think it's incumbent upon him to provide that to us here in this Assembly.

What about the Minister of Advanced Education and Manpower? One of the very interesting comments I ran across in thinking about my remarks today is in Hansard. June 18, 1979. The Minister of Advanced Education and Manpower, Mr. Horsman, says: Mr.

Chairman, before I conclude my opening re marks, I want to say as well that I have appreciated the obvious attention and . . . real dedication paid to these institutions by the boards of governors and the voluntary groups, senates included, of interested and concerned Albertans who are serving these institu tions by way of establishing policy for them within the overall framework of the department. I want to say that I very much respect the need for autonomy at institutional levels.

It is very real and essential, so that we maintain institutions free from direct politi cal involvement, or direction and control by government. Now that was a commitment he made. With all sincerity, he was going to leave the autonomy alone with regard to these institutions. I think the best example of intervention is Athabasca University. About an hour before the decision was made public, the board of governors were notified that it was going to happen. They weren't aware of it. I guess that's giving them autonomy.

It said, look fellows, we're mov ing, and away you go; this really wasn't in our plan, but there is some pressure out in Athabasca, a few people out there. Maybe the hon. member was able to put the pressure on. All of a sudden we react in a certain way, and out goes the university from Edmonton to Atha basca. Not thinking maybe about the staff complement, not thinking about access for students, not thinking

136 ALBERTA HANSARD March 28, 1980 about any other social or financial implications there may be. We're going to move it because that's the way we decentralize this government. Well, Mr. Speaker, that's reactionary. It's not thought through and projected, as in the total plan of education for the province of Alberta. The priority was put on the fact that we had to put an institution out at Athabasca that would provide jobs and income for Athabasca. The priority was not, how can that facility provide the best quality education in the province of Alberta? Something is mixed up.

So I suggest to the Minister of Advanced Education and Manpower: one, he should get his priori ties straight and, two, he should think in longer term planning, not just react to his emotional whims and needs. Maybe that will be his monument when he leaves his portfolio in about three years. The Minister of Housing and Public Works. What's my concern there?

He's made a couple of good announce ments with regard to helping people across the province of Alberta, but what kind of planning or thinking has he done with regard to the problem raised by colleague, where 25,000 homeowners in the province of Alberta are in jeopardy. They might not lose their homes, but it puts them in great financial difficulty at the present time. What kind of planning and thinking is going into that program? What kind of plans are there? We knew that interest rates were going up. We knew many of them were going to be renegotiated at this point in time.

But I don't see any kind of leadership and direction. We're going to have some type of reactionary response. The Solicitor General. When writing my remarks, I said he has the most innovative prisoner release system in Canada. Some of those things are predictable. Now he's rushing around trying to keep these guys inside all the time. Why do we do it after the fact? These kinds of things are obvious and have happened for years. He should be able to solve those problems. So, Mr. Speaker, what is he doing about it? What about crime in the street?

We hear of all kinds of statistics in Edmonton and Calgary about good citizens concerned about their safety on the streets. What type of program does the Solicitor General have with regard to that? Is he going to beef up the protection system in the province of Alberta? Is he going to help the urban police system? Is he going to beef up the RCMP system? Is he going to give them various assignments, hire other people to help them? I've never heard of any projections.

But all of a sudden, one of these days the cry from the public will be, look, it's gone far enough; something's got to be done; it's too late, but something has to be done. Again the government will be in a position of reacting. I'd like to give a couple more examples. The Minister of Transportation: a very fine minister, does a good job, works hard at his job. But he told us in this Assembly in the budget discussion last year that we require $1 billion just to bring our present highway system in Alberta up to a good standard. One billion dollars. Well, what has happened since 1971?

We've been holding back on the highways budget. Municipalities and people have been demanding roads. But really nobody has heard about it. All of a sudden there is a crisis: we need a billion dollars to catch up. Finally — and I really think it's great; I hope we're able to deliver the goods — it becomes one of the priorities of this government to spend more money on transportation. If that increase is less than 25 per cent in the budget that will be announced on April 2, I really don't think the government has reacted to the problem at hand. We need that much more money in the budget. But what happened?

We had to react as a government. We have to wait and react. The Minister of Culture: a couple of comments there. The 75th Anniversary. Today the question period was a nice question period, nice questions about the 75th Anni versary. The hope of that question period was to get positive information to the people of Alberta. The Member for Lac La Biche-McMurray said how great it is and the great job the municipalities are going to do. I agree with him. They will. But what's wrong with what happened? The people in the communities won't hear the discussion that went on here.

You go out and talk to them and they say, yeah, it's great we got the money; I'm not sure what to do with it; why didn't they tell us earlier so we could really plan and put things together in a better manner? You know, 1980 is the 75th birthday. We knew — well if you've lived 75 years in Alberta — that 1980 was the 75th Anniversary. That was obvious. We knew in 1971 that 1980 was the 75th Anniversary. We knew in 1975. We knew in 1979. But I'll tell you, Mr. Speaker, there was no plan. And the confusion that existed at the end of 1979 and in the month of January 1980 was unbelievable. Unbelievable.

To me that example typifies how this gov ernment operates. All of a sudden they realize that 75 years are upon us and we've got to have a party and we really have to do something. Scramble. Reaction. That's all it is, and it's very unfortunate. Seventy-five million dollars is given to the people of Alberta, and some good things could have been done, with a little bit of foresight, a little bit of discussion, a little bit of communication with the people of Alberta. I felt sorry for some of the 75th Anniversary people.

The one or two I have been in contact with in southern Alberta are doing a good job, but they didn't have all the information. They couldn't give all the decisions. They were trying their best. They were trying to communicate, but they were in difficulty because they were trying to do a month's work that should have been planned at least six, seven, eight, nine, or 10 months earlier. That's a disaster, Mr. Speaker, just a disaster, to think we can blow $75 million, compared to the little bit of money Saskatchewan is putting on for its program.

I was at a hockey tournament last weekend — I think this is a typical example — and Saskatchewan had a team there. Their players and coach had 75th Anniversary pins and gave them to the players. They exchanged them just like the Russia-Canada type of series. I thought that was very impressive. I even got one from Saskatchewan. I wanted to give away a few pins next week, so I phoned over and they said, well, in about six weeks we'll have some pins for you. I said, I need them next week. What happened? Did somebody misorder? Six weeks, Mr. Speaker. DR. BUCK: She was busy buying Roloff Beny pictures. MR. R.

SPEAKER: I was a little concerned about that kind of thing. That's the kind of thing, and the misman agement — that's just a little example; I'm sure there are others. I think it's going to be fun in Public Accounts to look at that initial $5 million that's going to administra tion. I could go through more, but I know I'm getting close to my time. In

summary, I can only say it concerns me very much that in a province with a government that has surplus funds in general revenue, has a large Heritage Savings Trust Fund, has the largest contingent of ministers of any

March 28, 1980 ALBERTA HANSARD 137 government in Canada — the responsibility has been divided as far as it can; when you have a minister of workers' compensation, you have to be reaching to look for a portfolio — and has a large contingent of civil servants, the insight and planning of this government could be second to none. I think you should take this to heart and talk about it a little. What do I suggest? In my light moments thinking about this, one thing was, let's bring Doc Horner back, and we'll get things put in gear. I've got a lot of respect for him and his political maneuvering.

I don't agree with all things, but he did put things in gear. That's just a comment. I suggest that this government examine the concern I have at this time. If it means that the cabinet takes two or three weeks, sits down somewhere, plans its objectives, lists the problems, looks at the best solutions, and listens to the people of Alberta — really listens to what they're saying — we can put things back on track and have good administration in this province. And for every tax dollar that's spent, we'll have some benefits. Mr.

Speaker, I hope the message has got across to the members on the other side of the Assembly, because the people of Alberta — whether you're opposition, govern ment, or just a lonely taxpayer trying to foot it on your own — need the best possible administration of their affairs. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MRS. FYFE: Mr. Speaker, I also would like to pay tribute to the new Lieutenant-Governor and wish him well in his term. In last year's throne speech debate, the emphasis of the new members was primarily on the nature of their constituencies.

I was going to say that this year the emphasis had been primarily oriented to issues, until I heard the Member for Lac La Biche-McMurray speak. He gave us a very detailed travelogue of his con stituency, and I'm sure we will all be there this summer to visit. It was very enjoyable. MR. WEISS: We welcome you. MRS. FYFE: I'd also like to compliment the mover and seconder for their speeches, which I thought were ex tremely well done. Perhaps the Member for Little Bow did not notice that even he received a little enthusiasm, a little desk thump ing while he was speaking. I think that shows there is enthusiasm.

We're even charitable. [interjections] I have a feeling that perhaps some of the ministers may be slighted as they were not commented on in their responsibilities. What about the Minister of Municipal Affairs? Don't you feel slighted? And the ministers re sponsible for personnel and small business weren't in cluded in this scathing attack. [interjections] I'd like to comment on the remarks about the minister not recognizing or understanding what was happening in rent controls.

Anyone having any understanding of economics realizes that over the long term rent controls reduce the supply of housing, and that's one of our concerns. We don't want to reduce the supply of housing; we want to increase it. And interest rates: to say this government is going to solve the interest rate problem in Canada? Phooey. It sounds as if the hon. member would prefer a road show in this Assembly rather than responsi ble government. MR. COOK: Only when they're awake. MRS. FYFE: He was concerned that the government only responds. Well I think part of the function of government is to respond.

If government is always lead ing — in our history there are very serious examples of governments leading that didn't turn out very well. Cer tainly governments lead sometimes. Certainly they re spond sometimes. But they must be responsive. That's the key. Just recently the response to the needs of new farmers, the response to homeowners earning under $31,000: these are significant, unprecedented programs. The capital project program for hospitals is wide ranging and accepted. A lot of planning went into this program. It didn't just happen because we wanted to spend $0.5 billion on hospitals.

It took months of planning to implement such a program. I wonder if the hon. member would advise us sometime as to which two problems they were able to solve in Ottawa while they were in power. DR. REID: Thirty-five years. MRS. FYFE: It was disappointing that instead of hearing some positive alternate suggestions in the member's reply to the throne speech, all we heard was a negative response for each department he mentioned. I think part of the role of opposition is to provide alternatives. No question is black or white; no answer is always going to be totally right or totally wrong.

Let's have some alternatives that will help us be a good government also. I doubt the residents of Athabasca would be very happy to hear the remarks made. I'm sure they were delighted by the locating of the university within their constituency. While many other communities were disap pointed, we all recognize that there is only one university and it can't go everywhere. It needed to find a permanent location, and it has always been the policy of this government to find a permanent location.

I know the people of Athabasca will receive that university, and that it will be an extremely successful institution in that constituency. Perhaps I misunderstood when the hon. member men tioned workers' compensation. I may be wrong in my

interpretation that he wasn't too concerned about work ers or the workplace, but I'll leave that till later on. AN HON. MEMBER: Shame. MRS. FYFE: Mr. Speaker, since I last spoke in this Assembly I had the privilege of participating in the workers' compensation select committee trip to West Germany, Sweden, and England. There were enormous benefits to all members of the committee during our days in West Germany studying their system of workers' compensation, upon which the Canadian system was orig inally based.

All members found seeing first-hand the accomplishments, particularly of West Germany and what they have done in the workplace, extremely signifi cant and most beneficial in putting together the report which will be coming before the Legislative Assembly. We took particular note of the concentration of people and the heavy industrialization — petrochemical plants with 35,000 employees in one complex — yet still a self- sufficiency in many agricultural products.

Probably the thing that made the most impact on me was seeing industrialization and agricultural self-sufficiency hand in hand, providing a very strong and vibrant economy.

138 ALBERTA HANSARD March 28, 1980 We reviewed the sophisticated diagnostic and treatment centres for miners and workers with respiratory disabili ties, and observed integrated physical, social, and voca tional rehabilitation programs. We observed rehabilita tion programs to retrain workers in many occupations such as electricians, dental technicians, metal workers, and even office training that utilizes a simulated brewery company that carries out actual transactions but without real products. AN HON. MEMBER: Unfortunately. MRS. FYFE: The hon. member says, "unfortunately." No samples.

We even travelled on airplanes that fly on time. [laughter] Well, all the time we were there they did. Mr. Speaker, as we step into the '80s in Alberta, we have the benefit of observing development in other areas and of ensuring that our policies and planning, which we do have, do not repeat errors that have been made in other developing industrial countries. I am sure all parti cipants of the workers' compensation select committee gathered an immense amount of knowledge that un doubtedly will be of benefit not just in this area but in many other areas of policy review and consideration. Mr.

Speaker, I would now like to refer to Monday's debate on the Speech from the Throne, when the hon. Leader of the Opposition commented about his concern for the re-evaluation taking place in the preventive social service programs in Alberta. In 1967 preventive social service legislation was progressive and forward. I believe the greatest strengths of this program were to encourage local initiative and the participation of volunteers.

Under that program, approved projects could be established with an 80:20 split in funding, the provincial government rebating 80 per cent of the deficit costs to the municipali ties and the municipalities contributing 20 per cent. Proj ects could be established only after agreements between provincial and municipal governments were entered into. In the early years, and perhaps still today, many munici pal councillors viewed, or still view, the programs of preventive social services as a way to get funding, but probably with not much real understanding of the philos ophy of the program.

The majority of smaller municipali ties did not enter into PSS agreements, as they were termed, and therefore did not receive the funding or the services. In the first years of preventive social services project budgets were submitted to the local government which reviewed the project and, in turn, referred the approved project to the provincial government for consideration. I believe the basic concept of preventive social services was, and still is today, very exciting.

I personally volun teered many hundreds of hours developing programs funded through PSS, so I have some feeling and knowl edge on the subject. Many worth-while projects became ongoing, beneficial community programs. Nevertheless, in my opinion there was one major flaw in this program, and that was the lack of evaluation. When I spoke on the Bill on the Alberta medical research foundation, intro duced by the Premier last fall, I emphasized my support for the evaluation procedures built into that legislation, and I repeat that many public programs lack an effective evaluation mechanism. The hon.

Helen Hunley, during her term as Minister of Social Services and Community Health, responded to the need to incorporate global funding into preventive social services. Previously, projects were approved on an indi vidual basis. After global funding was initiated, a base line funding would be approved for municipalities, which then could approve programs within their jurisdiction. Thus the incentive was created to evaluate those pro grams at a local level.

This global funding did not receive much publicity, but in my opinion was extremely signifi cant in shifting the responsibility of evaluation to local communities. The hon. Leader of the Opposition suggests that the present evaluation being carried out in PSS programs threatens to cut back and, in his words, takes "away from things like day care . . . and preventive work". First, I submit, Mr. Speaker, that evaluation is impera tive to public programs. Secondly, day care has been a program separate from the rest of the PSS budgets since 1978. Perhaps he may have noticed that in the estimates.

Thirdly, the majority, about two-thirds of the children in Alberta, were unable to be accommodated in subsidized day care programs which were funded under PSS. These children were faced with the full cost of day care pro grams whether their families could afford it, whether they needed assistance or not. The most significant change in day care funding was implemented by the hon. Miss Hunley with her decision to have the subsidy follow the child rather than be to the limited number of funded PSS day care programs.

The significance is that this allows the parents to choose a facility that will suit their needs, not to be put on a long waiting list, if they are in a lower income family, and not have their child accommodated for a long period of time. They can take into consideration the total cost of the program, the type of program offered, the distance from their home, the type of personnel working, to name some of the considerations that are extremely important to parents.

The budgets of this government have clearly demon strated a growing commitment and concern for all fami lies requiring financial assistance to place their children in day care facilities. This was a bold move, a bold move, that will not benefit just a few children but will apply to all children in Alberta requiring day care facilities.

With growth, with many new young families coming to this province, and with a growing number of single parent families, we have a program in place that encourages the development of first-class facilities throughout the prov ince, not just in communities that had PSS agreements but in all communities. I visited the day care facilities located in St. Albert, the community in which I live, and found that public and private home care and after-school care programs were operating in harmony and providing top-rate child care. I suggest to the hon.

Leader of the Opposition that as we enter the '80s, not only do we have a commitment but we have a program in place that can be applied fairly across our province. Mr. Speaker, I would now like to refer to the first priority in the Speech from the Throne: hospitals. On behalf of the people residing within the Sturgeon General Hospital district, I would like to express my very sincere appreciation for the approval of the project to add a very needed addition to the Sturgeon General Hospital. This hospital has an excellent reputation for providing service that is personalized and caring.

While the growing population of Alberta requires this giant step in hospital construction, I also commend the throne speech in setting out emphasis for preventive medicine programs and consultation with groups in volved in the provision of greater ambulance services. It has been my belief for some time that we should not look

March 28, 1980 ALBERTA HANSARD 139 at segments of health care in isolation, but as a total program. These include components such as active treat ment hospitals, auxiliary hospitals, nursing home care, ambulance, and preventive health programs, not to men tion research. One of the greatest benefits we have in Alberta is to have funds available to implement a program of such magnitude. Health care is an ongoing program. It's an awareness of new causes, new health problems, and new treatment and care in addition to the replacement of outdated facilities and equipment.

This speech has made a tremendous impact on health facilities, and for that I am in total support. I think it is particularly significant that this announcement in health facilities came during our 75th Anniversary year. Speaking of the 75th Anniversary year, it is indeed a year to look back and pay tribute to new and old resi dents: to those who settled this region and laid the foundation for our entry into Confederation; to the dedi cated people who came to Alberta bringing very little with them, often facing an unknown language, but with the dedication to make a new life.

I would also like to pay tribute to the new Canadians who have chosen Alberta for their home. New Canadians are essential to the devel opment of this province. Recently, while attending Canadian citizenship court, I couldn't help but be moved by the tremendous excitement the new Canadians felt receiving their citizenship. I feel this experience would benefit all Canadians. Sometimes there is a tendency to take our citizenship for granted, to forget why our forefathers or new citizens — such as my colleague on the right — came to this country; why they chose to live and to make their contribution in Alberta.

We are indebted to the people who have chosen this country and this province. We need them for the devel opment of our economy. During this year many Albertans are compiling his tories and commemorating the anniversary of our enter ing Confederation in many, many ways. But my wish to Albertans is that their enthusiasm for our province be as great as that of the new Canadians I saw at the citizen ship court. MR. D. ANDERSON: Mr. Speaker, it's with a great deal of pleasure that I rise to speak for the first time in this session of the Legislature.

Along with other members, I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor on his appointment to the position. It's a particular pleasure for me to note that appointment, since the Lieutenant-Governor's daughter and her family reside in Calgary Currie, and have been long and close friends of mine. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to express again my appreciation for your chairmanship in this House.

As always, your fairness, your dedication, and perhaps most of all your perseverance, have allowed this House to operate correct ly, and me to be proud to stand in this Assembly, as opposed to others which I've had the opportunity to watch. I'd like to congratulate all speakers who have gone before me, particularly the mover and seconder, who gave such eloquent addresses, and the hon. Member for St. Albert.

I thought her speech gave us a great outline of both the historical perspectives of our current anniversary celebrations and of a number of problems in the preven tive social service and day care areas, with which I have a real kinship. I very much appreciated those remarks. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to begin today by making a few comments with respect to some announcements in the Speech from the Throne. First, housing programs: I think we are all happy to know that the government is going to move in a dramatic and specific way to deal with prob lems our citizens face as a result of increasing interest rates.

I look forward to thos

Document details

Collection	Alberta — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	19800328
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	L19 S2 19800328 1000 01 han.pdf
Language	en
Format	json
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3549cd60d169cf33f8fadfacc3bbc32e471d60f4

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