ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature ollhe Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Publi•hed under the authority of The Honourable D. Jame• Welding Spealfer VOL. XXXI No. 58A - 2:00 p.m., MONDAY, 2 MAY, 1983. Prinl&d by the Office of the Queens Printer. Pr- of M.mtobll

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second le gislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affil iation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNES S, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Mi nnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ell ice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin- Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Bur rows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 2 May, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr . Speaker. This week of May 1st to 7th is National Forest Week across Canada and in Manitoba. This week is proclaimed each year to draw attention to the importance of forests in our lives. For many Manitobans, the forests play a principal

part in their livelihoods, either in the forest industry itself or in other industries that spring from the use of the wood and wood products. As well, each year thousands of Manitobans spend at least part of their leisure time in the forested areas of our province. The Manitoba Forestry Association, a non-profit volunteer organiza tion, is happy to sponsor this week each year. The Association provides an opportunity for thousands of Manitoba childr en to get a first-hand look at the forest, how it grows and what can threaten it, at their demonstration area near Hadashville.

This year the slogan for the week reflects the work of the Association, forests growing futures. The blue spruce trees you see on your desks today, were provided through the Association to help draw attention to the potential in our forests and to ensure it will be there for our childr en to enjoy. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: The official opposition would certainly wish to associate ourselves with the remarks by the Minister in recog nition of the importance of the forestry indus try to Ma nitoba, indeed to our coun try.

We appreciate the continuing custom that has been a custom as long as I' ve been in this Chamber that on this occasion we are favoured with a living example of those forestries growing. I only wonder how come it happens that my leader gets the lousiest specimen of the tree deformity - it will need tender loving care to survive the rigours of a Manitoba winter, Mr. Speaker.

In addition to that, I do note some slight increase in the Estimates for foresty in the Department of Natural Resources which we'll be getting into later on this afternoon and I' ll look forward to discussing the issue along with my colleagues of the importance to forestries to Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to bring a statement to the House. Mr . Speaker, I rise today to make an annou ncement which signals in an important way, a return of confidence and renewed optimism in Manito ba's mining industry.

Following discussions over the past two weeks with Mr. Charles Baird, Chairman of the Board of lnco Limited, and other company executives, I am pl eased to announce the resumption of the open pit mining development at Thompson which was deferred by the company last Ju ly. A similar announcement is also being released by Mr. Baird in Toronto and Thompson. Mem bers will be aware that this is the first major investment of capital in the province's mining sector since the recession began to affect the industry in 1981.

Discussions have ranged over a wide variety of topics during the past two weeks and included the involvement of Premier Howard Pawley. Our government feels that tod ay's annou ncement la ys the grou ndwork for continued co-operation and mutua lly beneficial planning to insure the production, investment and employment stability of the Thompson mines operation. The first phase of the development of this mine estimated to cost in excess of $90 million (Cdn.) involves the dredging of some 26 million cubi c yards of overburden scheduled to recommence by September and will employ about 100 contract employees.

When complete in 19 86, it will permit open pit mining of a portion of the Thompson mine ore body from suface to the underground 400 foot level. The second phase of mine development will require the dredging of a further 21 million cubic yards of overburden to provide access to the remainder of the ore body. This phase, expected to begin in 19 89 with production by 1992, will cost approxi mately $77 million. Discussions with lnco are continuing to ensure the stability of the Thompson mine operation into the next century and to further other mining possibilities in Manitoba.

To this end, the government and lnco will consider a number of measures including joint venture exploration and development possibilities. In closing, I would like to remind members of the important role the Province of Manitoba played in co­ operation with the Federal Government during recent layoffs at Thompson. A su ccessfu l com muni ty em ployment pr ogram funded from the Mi ning Community Reserve helped maintain the town's spirit and hold its work force. The province's contribution will amount to $477,000 and we believe it is money well invested.

Now that it appears an economic upturn is slowly taking shape, the productive work force maintained in Thompson by the short-term employment program, will now be ab le to contribute fully to the long-term development of the Thompson area operations. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We join with the Minister and the government in expres sing 2271

Monday, 2 May, 1983 satisfaction that this planned development, which was first planned and announced in 1981 and had since been put on the shelf, is now back in the realm of reality again. It is, no doubt, going to have a beneficial effect on the immediate and the long-term economic future of the North. If the government is now just able to accomplish something similar in co-operation with Alcan to get the Alcan smelter back to where it was in 19 81, and the Power Grid back to where it was in 1981, and the IM C megaproject back to where it was in 1981, this province may yet have a reasonable economic future. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to table the Annual Report of the Manitoba Environmental Council for 19 82. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. R. PENNER introduc ed Bill No. 49,

An Act to amend The Provincial Police Act. HON. L. EVANS introduc ed Bill No. 69, The Marriage Act;

Loi sur le ma rria ge (R ecommended by the Lieuten ant-G overnor) ; and Bill No. 70, The Vital Statistics Act;

Loi sur les statistiques de l'etat civil (Recommended by the Lieutenant-Governor). HON. R. PENNER introduc ed Bill No. 71,

An Act to amend The Child Custody Enfo rce ment Act; Loi modifiant la

loi sur !'execution des ordonnanc es de garde. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the galle ry, where we have 18 students of Grade 9 standing from the Elmwood High School. The students are under the dir ection of Mr. Bilawka, and the school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Elmwood. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION Open pit mining - Thompson MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, the statement just made by the Minister of Energy and Mines indicates that the decision with respect to the open pit mine at Thompson was taken within the last two weeks and hinged to some extent on the involvement of the Premier. My question to the First Mi nister would be, exactly what involvement did the First Mi nister have in seeing this decision made? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I was pleased to have the opportunity to attend at a meeting with the lnco executives in which they outlined to us their long-term plans in respect to nickel de velopment and the development in the Thompson area this past Thu rsday. It was a most impressive presentation and encouraging insofar as future mining development in the Province of Manitoba, and mining potential. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr . Speaker, we've all had occasion to be brie fed by a company, lnco in this case, as to what their plans are. The announcement indicates that the Premier had a hand in having this positive decision made.

My question to the First Minister was: What input did he ha ve towards seeing this positiv e development come about? HON. H. PAWLE Y: Mr . Speaker , the honour able member ought to know that certainly I have a hand, and all members of the Treasury Bench, in developing gov ernment poli cy and programs, gov ernment development of programs - initiatives, policies and thrusts. I am encouraged, Mr. Speaker, by the fact that that kind of initiative by the government has resulted in a positive response on the part of lnco.

We take some degree of pleasure in the fact that there has been a positive response on the part of lnco. Careerstart Program MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Memb er for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honour able Minister of Labour . Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that today, I believe, is the first day on which students can make application at the Hire Student offices for jobs under the Careerstart Program, would the Minister indicate how many jobs are available to students and young people in the province under that program? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON.

M.B. DOLIN: Mr . Speaker, I am happy to share with members that the program, as I indicated before, is an overwhelming success. We will be reporting the exact tally of jobs available both in the private and the non-profit sector very short ly. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, in 19 81, there were some 5,000 jobs created under a Youth Employment Program under our government. Last year under the program of the ND P Government, there were some 4,000. Can the Minister indicate whether there will be more than 4,000 jobs created for young people under the Careerstart Program this year? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Mr.

Speaker, the 5,000 jobs referred to by the honourable member were not verified by the auditor. Th at's exactly why he suggested that we change some of the criteria for the program, which we did, and that program then resulted in the 4,000 or so jobs 2272

Monday, 2 May, 1983 that were created last year. I can assure members that this year 's program, which takes the best facets of both of the previous programs and puts them together into a single program, will be more successful than either of them. Payment of Wages Fund MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speak er, my question is to the Minister of Labour . The Minister of Labour and I have had dis cussions and corre spondenc e concerning payment of some young people out of the Payment of Wages Fund.

Those discussions have dated back to mid-Janu ary, and the Minister has given her assurance that indeed these 12 young people will be paid. Can the Minister advise exactly when they could expect to be paid? HON. M. B. DOLIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Director of the Employment Standards Branch spoke to the public trustee in this case just today and was assured that the reply to our letters is in the mail, and that we could therefore be paying these young people within this week.

I can assure the mem ber that if we don't receive that reply, which has been promised to us for the last month and which they now do say is in the mail, if we don't receive that reply by mid-week, we will be pursuing some other route so that these young people can receive payment, as have their colleagues. Private nursing homes - government support MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I dir ect a question to the Honourable Minister of Health.

If the Attorney-General allows me to, I will certainly express, on behalf of our members, our pleasure at seeing the Minister of Health back in his seat. Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Minister of Health is th at over the week end, the gov ernment was encouraged to withd raw support from private nursing care homes or health facilities, and I would ask the Honourable Minister to assure both the patients and the operators of these homes that patient care, indeed quality of that care, would be the determ ining factor as to support and non-support by this government, and that party ideology or resolutions of this nature will not in fact be listened to. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to first of all thank the honourable member for his kind words. My health has not deterior ated enough that I am under the illusion that this will last forever, but I will take everything he can give for the time being. I might say that I am not too familiar with the statement or the reason why the statement was made, but I can assure the honourable member that the standard of care that we give Manitobans are what will guide the department and this government. South Winnipeg Vocational Centre MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr . Speaker.

My question is for the Honourable Minister of Education. I have a piece of information that has come into my hands since we passed this particular item in her Estimates, so I hope that it's permissible to ask the question. We have a letter tha t was sent out to the constituen ts of Winn ipeg, Fort Ga r ry, by the Hono urable Ll oyd Axworthy, the Minister of Employment and Immigra tion, which appears to imply that the total funding for the construction of the new South Winnipeg Vocational Centre was federal funding.

I wonder if the Minister could indicate, since she and the Minister of Labour were both at the opening, whether or not there is any provincial funding at all in the construction of that facility? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I can give a very quick response to that now, and perhaps suggest to the Member for Tuxedo that although he may feel that we have passed this item in my Estimates, the entire area of capital is still to come up.

I have absolutely no ob jections about going into details or pr oviding information on any capital project when we reach that area, including the vocational. There is provincial and federal money in that program and perhaps we can get into the details when we hit that program in my Estimates. MR. G. FILMON: Well, Mr. Speaker, Mr . Axworthy says in his letter, in part, that he is pleased personally to announce the construction of the $1 1. 5 million facility as part of the Federal Government's initiative.

Secondly, he expresses his "appreciation to Provincial Ministers Maureen Hemphill and Mary Beth Dolin, who have worked with me on this." That's the extent of the credit that he gives for this. I'm just wondering whether or not there is some error in the manner in which he's expressed this? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . HON. M.B. DOLIN: Well, we'll take turns answering this one. The National Training Act is administered by my department, so perhaps I can explain to the Member for Tuxedo just how it happens that Mr. Axworthy took credit for this particular announcement.

The Skills Growth Fund, which is a new part of The National Training Act, it wasn't in the previous agreement, is the

section under which this facility is being funded for this year. These are the funds that will provide for the construction of the facil ity. The ongoing upkeep and progra mming of the facility is a provincial responsibility. So that is why it really falls within both Education, and Labour and 2273

Monday, 2 May, 1983 Employment Services as far as jurisdiction is concerned, but ours in the initial start-up funding. That funding was, in tact, all federal. So the announcement that was heard the other day was an announcement of federal funds, but it had to be done thr ough a long series of negotiations with people in my department, people in the Department of Education, so that the province knew what it was getting into in the long term.

Also that the kinds of things that were needed the most, the kinds of training that we felt were important in Manitoba, even though they may not be on the national list of designated occupations were, in fact, dealt with through these training programs. I was very pleased, and I'm sure the Mi nister of Education was too, as should be all people who wish to have training and retraining in Manitoba, that we were able to get into that series of announcements, those series of programs, those that dealt with the needs of Manitobans. MR. G. FILMON: So, Mr.

Speaker, if I can just seek clarification from the Minister of Labour then, leaving aside the matter of operating funds, there are no capital funds that are provincial funds in the construction of this facil ity. HON. M. HEMPHILL: What we're just trying to decide in whose jurisdiction the answer falls I guess, Mr. Speaker. We are co-operatively planning both the Adult Education Centre that is going into, and that is being funded under the Skills Growth Fund, and a proposal that was on my desk for a vocational centre for the three school divisions.

I'm glad to say that by co­ operating with the Federal Government by building a facility whose equipment will be made available for both the adults and the high school students, we are able to provide a vocational institution for those three school division with much less money. But the Provincial Government has certainly made a commitment at this point to provide funding for the high school component for the vocational education centre for the students. MR. G. FILMON: Well, how much provincial money, Mr. Speaker, will be spent on the capital cost of the construction of the south Winnipeg vocational facility?

HON. M. HEMPHILL: I want to give the correct, the exact, correct amount of that, Mr. Speaker, so perhaps we could give that exact dollar figure. I know the range. It's about $4 million. We can give him the exact amount in Estimates, perhaps this afternoon or this evening. MR. G. FILMON: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Will the Minister then be contacting Mr. Axworthy to ensure that in future he gives proper credit to her government for their contribution towards this facility? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr .

Speaker, I thank the Member for Tuxedo for his deep concern that the Provincial Government get all the credit they should be getting for the programs and the funding, and we will certainly pass on his concern to the Federal Minister. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that our government worked at great length in ensuring that the groundwork was laid for this facility to be announced then I believe that the taxpayers of Manitoba, more particular ly, ought to be given proper credit and I urge her to do that. Flyer Indus tries - resignation MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Mem ber for La Verendrye. MR. R.

BANMAN: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I dir ect my question to the Minister in charge of Flyer Industries, and would ask him whether he could confirm that the General Ma nager and Chief Executive Officer of Flyer is no longer in the employment of the government­ owned bus business, Flyer Industries? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Economic Development. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, the C.E.O . has resigned but will be functioning at Flyer until October 1st by mutual agreement. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you. A supple mentar y question to the Minister of Economic Development.

Could she tell the House why this particular individual has resigned? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I think that's a question that the Board of Flyer is in the better position to answer. But I just repeat that it was by mutual agreement and that the C. E.O . will be working for Flyer until the first of October . MR. R. BANMAN: Mr . Speaker, that's an interesting resignation by mutual agre ement.

I want to ask the Minister, in light of the fact that the House Leader several weeks ago postponed the hearing of Flyer before the committee because of the Chief Executive Officer not, in his words I think, "being healthy", or "being ill" I wonder if she could assure this House that this particular individual that will be acting as Chief Executive Officer until October - I believe she indicated - will be appearing before the committee when it is called in the near future? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the delay in the hearing was because the President had asked for a health break, not the C.E.O .

They're two different people and both will be appearing at the Estimates hearing. Oak lake - Plum lake study MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question to the Minister of Natural Resources. The Mi nister of Natu ral Resources, some time ago, commissioned a study of the Oak Lake, Plum Lake area in the western region of Manitoba to determine what the best future use would be of that particular region of the province. When will the Minister be tabling that report so that we have an opportunity to observe it? 2274

Monday, 2 May, 1983 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I want to confirm what the honourable member has indicated. Some time ago, we referred the matter of Oak Lake and Plum Lake and the problems associated with various issues relating to the level of lakes to the Manitoba Water Commission. Study hearings were held, particularly in places in the immedia te proximity to those lakes. A report, in dr aft form, has been submitted and is under review. When the report is finally released by the Commission, certainly I will table it in the House.

Mosquito Abatement Program MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr . Speaker, a question to the Mi nister of Agriculture.

In view of the Environmental Council's recommendation that the Government of Manitoba take action to make the Mosquito Abatement Program safer and more effective, and in view of the fact that the horse population has increased somewhat and the PMU business is a fairly important industry in Manitoba, and the fact that the horse is an animal which transmits or, in fact, would transmit the equine encephalitis to those individuals, what has he done to introduce a program, or worked in a co-ordinated effort with the Minister of Health to introduce an inoculation program to avoid the kind of outbreak in the horse population that could happen if the recommendations or the speculation of this year's problem comes about?

MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker , I don't know whether the honourable member wants us to inoculate the horses or the mosqu itoes, Sir. I will take the . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member indicated that the horses do the spreading of the disease.

I believe it is the mosqu itoes that do the spreading of the disease, but I will take the specifics of the honourable member's question as notice to ascertain from our officials as to whether in fact an inoculation program would be the best way of dealing with this situation. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr . Speaker , I am satisfied that the Minister finally has taken the question seriously. It's the horses, of course, and there should be a program looked at to inoculate the horses. It is a program that I think could be helpful.

I don't understand it, but I would think, and if he doesn't know, I believe that humans can contact sleeping sickness from horses that have been infected by infected mosquitoes, for his information. If he doesn't want to respond, that's fine, Mr. Speaker. Bankruptcies - farmers Another question to the Minister of Agriculture, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that his attempt to deal with farm bankr uptcies has so far failed, the specific case, Mr.

Speaker, of the bankrup tcy at Portage, as I understand it, the individual owed the Portage Credit Union some $200-and-some-odd thousand dolla rs and an additional $500,000 to other creditors in tha t community. Who were those creditors and how many small businesses will be affected because this individual has now packed up and gone back to Ontario, and this Minister has failed do inform the public of the specifics of that particular situation? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr . Speaker, it appears that the honourable mem bers are making some assertions and questions tha t we have no jur isdiction in.

Those questions should properly be related to the receiver and the people involved, Sir. With regard to panels, we are the first province in this country to move in the area of trying to deal with difficulties as between farmers and their creditors, and, in fact, I'm pleased to say that we have and are able to put into place this week - effective today as a matter of fact, anyone who requir es assistance, where there has been a falling away of communications as between a farmer and institutions, can call our regional offices and if they require the assistance of a panel, they will be put into place immedia tely.

In fact, Mr. Speaker, I hope to make a further announcement on this matter tomor row. MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Speaker, it's a fairly simple question, and in view of the fact the Minister already has had a group of staff working with the individual at Portage, could he not tell us how many other businesses or individuals now are hurt because the government lacked a program to put in place several months ago to deal with the situation? How many small businesses or other creditors are hurt with the loss of some $500,000 in that Portage community? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr .

Speaker , the honour able member's question, as I said, should be directed to the receiver . Ther e's no doubt, Mr . Speaker , the information that the staff of the department and the panels have provided were confidential to the individual involved and to the lending institution. They were not to be made public in terms of the recom mendations made. It was for those two parties' consideration as to whether or not some alternate means of preventing that farm from going into bankru ptcy or for being foreclosed upon could be reached.

Sir, obviously this was not the case in this instance, but whenever there is a bankru ptcy or foreclosure where there is money involved, there are many creditors, in most instances, that are hurt by this very fact of life. But for me to stand up in this House and to give that kind of information, or even attempt to provide that kind of information, would not be proper , Sir. Tourist Information Centres MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is the Mi nister of Tourism. There are a number of Tourist 2275

Monday, 2 May, 1983 Information Centres located along the International Boundar y, which normally would be opening today, I believe. It's my understanding that this year there is a delay in the opening of these centres. My question to the Minister of Tourism would be, can she confirm that indeed there is a delay, and if so, why? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Economic Development. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I'll have to take that question as notice. Abortion clinic - Dr. Morgentaler MR. SPEAK ER: The Ho nourable Memb er for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Mi nister of Health. Can he assure Manitobans, Mr . Speaker, that he intends to reject the application of Dr . Mo rge ntaler to have his ill egal abortion clinic declared a hospital? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I should say that a few months ago, I was directed by Cabinet to investigate to see if an expansion was necessary. This paper is practically ready now.

It will be presented in the Cabine t fairly soon and we will recommend that that should be done within the public ly-owned hospital, and also that the problem of therapeutic abortions be add ressed in a wider context; that is, that we look at the counselling and also the context of a reinforced and strengthened program of family planning. As far as the direct request from Dr. Morgental er, I've written to him and I have refused it, and I give two reasons for this.

One is that the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Manitoba has advised me that this procedure should be performed more safely in hospital where appropriate facilities and backup facilities exist and, secondly, that this government's policy is not to approve private health facilities. So I have refused the request of Dr. Morgentaler to declare his clinic a hospital. Provincial park entrance pass MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Memb er for La Verendr ye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr . Speaker.

For the last number of years. it has been a policy of the Parks Department to allow people who are passing through going to another destination, to pass through the provincial parks without having to buy or have a day pass or a season sticker, without them having to purchase it. I wonder if the Minister of Parks could inform the House why that particular policy has changed and why residents, such as the owners of cottages on lngolf, will now have to pay the park entrance fee to get to their park even though there is no other way of getting to that particular facility by any other road network. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, now that the catcalls have ended, I'm not aware of any change in policy. If there has been . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr . Speaker, there are some people in this Legislature that cannot see the forest for the trees. Mr. Speaker, there has been no directive from myself or from anyone in my department, to my knowledge, that has changed any policy in respect to park entrance. As a matter of fact, Mr .

Speaker, under the previous NDP Gove rnment, those who owned cottages in our parks were, by right, given a free entrance pass to the park. The previous administration changed that policy and charged cottage owners a seasonal pass. Mr. Speaker, when we returned to office, we rescinded that charge to cottage owners, believing that if they're paying taxes, if they're paying fees in the parks, they should be entitled to entry as of right to their cottages. Mr .

Speak er, if there has been some misunderstanding and someone has charged someone for the right of free passage through the park, I will certainly look into it and make sure that is rescinded. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm sure the cottage owners will be very pleased now that they have to pay $500 instead of $200, that they won't have to pay the $5 for the increase, but I wonder if the Mi nister could check with his department.

It has come to my attention that there have been letters going out from his department saying that the traditional rights of somebody to pass through a park, that they will now be charged. The specific instance that I refer to are the cottage owners at lngolf, and I wonder if he could check and inform me whether or not that has been changed. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I thought that I had made myself very clear , and perhaps the honourable member was not listening.

I said that if through any misunder standing, anyone has been asked to pay a charge for the free right of trav elling through our park to reach their cottage outside of the park, I would see that misunder standing was rescinded. Now, I can't speak for people trav elling through national parks, because of course we don't have jurisdiction for that. Hog In come As surance Plan MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr . Speaker.

Over the past several days, the First Minister and the Minister of Agriculture's backup in the Legislature have taken a number of questions as notice for which we are anxiously awaiting the answers. Could the Minister provide us with those answers today? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mi nister of Agriculture. 2276

Monday, 2 May, 1983 HON. B. URUSKI: Mr . Speaker, I have some of the information that was asked of the Premier on one question specifically that was provided to me by the depar tment. The Hono urable Mem ber for Tu rtle Mountain raised a question on the 29th of April dealing with possible changes and assurances in the Hog Income Assurance Plan, based on concerns that were raised by 20 producers or approxima tely 20 producers in the Somerset area.

I would like to advise the honourable member that th ose conc erns were di scussed and we will be responding to them specifical ly, but those concerns were discussed at the annual meeting of the Hog Producers' Board meeting in Winnipeg. As I understand it, the only issue that the delegates did raise at the an nual meeting and wanted brought forward for possible change was to place a ceiling above which the producer premium could not go.

Sir, as such a limit would be above the present premium, there will be from our end, as one could say, no sweetening of the pot and no reason to change the provisions of the plan with regard to late entries. The meeting that was held in Somerset, I was advised during that time, that 50 producers were in attendance, but only 20 supported that position. I should mention to the honourable member that those concerns that were raised are being responded to by myself after discussions with the committee so that those issues would be add ressed specifically as they have raised them. Loan Guarantee Program MR. D.

ORCHARD: Now, has the Mi nister got answers to a number of questions that have been posed to him, particularly about the Loan Guarantee Program that he announced some several months ago? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, we are, as I indicated last week, reviewing the program. I should tell the honourable member that basically in terms of allowing farmers under the Loan Guarantee Program, that while equity is being considered, the overall consideration is the viability of the farm unit and the ability to repay that loan.

However, at this point in time, I cannot give the honourable member a specific guarantee that the equity position will be changed downward from 80 percent to 90 percent. However , what is being viewed by MACC is the total viability of the farm unit to be able to repay those funds that are borrowed. That is being used as the major criteria, as well as the equity owned, but the overri ding one is the ability to repay the debt load. MR. D. ORCHARD: Could the Mi nister answer one further question?

In view of the fact that he hasn't answered a number of very clear questions to him on that loan program, could he answer whether Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation has refused any loan applications which have been appro ved and sent in by the participating lending institutions? HON. B. URUSKI: Clearly where viability is at question, the MACC would have refused those applications had they been forwarded. They would have. The number of which ha ve been refus ed, I do not ha ve the information for the honourable member in terms of which applications have been declined and not declined. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Could you find that out please? HON. B. URUSKI: Yes. Thompson Improvement Projects Employ ment Program MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Energy and Mines. Earlier today in a statement with regard to the reopening of the Thomp son open pit project, he made reference to the Thompson Improvement Projects which have been under way in Thompson for the last number of months. I was wondering whether the Minister could confirm that the Thompson Impr ovement Projects Employment Program has been extended to June 30th? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. That process had been under way for some time. We found that the earlier projects had helped the community tremendously. They had helped the morale of the community and they had kept the work force productive. We felt that an extension of that would certainly go further , keep that work force in good shape so that when the upturn take s pla ce, they will be very productive, long-term mining employees. MR. S.

ASHTON: I was wondering if the Mi nister could confirm that the program, which is funded by both the Federal Government and the Provincial Government, through his department, and is jointly administered with the Department of Labour , has created in excess of 370 jobs thus far, more than $2. 7 million worth of public assets on more than 70 hospitals, school and community group projects in Thompson over the last three or four months. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, I certainly would be pleased to confirm that.

I note that the Member for Thompson was a very important part of the local community involvement with those projects, and I must say that he has helped contribute to the long-term viability of that community. Ag ricultural research funding MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, today the Federal Minister of Agriculture made an announcement of some $9 million of farmers' money to be spent in agriculture research. Could the Mi nister of Agriculture tell us how much of that will be spent in Manitoba? MR. SPEA KER: The Ho nourable Mini ster of Agriculture. 2277

Monday, 2 May, 1983 HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I will take that question as notice. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, did the Minister ask the Federal Minister of Agricultur e for any funds to be spent in Manitoba? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member should recall our concerns which we raised with the Federal Government prior to the new year dealing with the reduction of research staff in Western Canada and specifically when we attended the Outlook Conference, where we were assured at that time that there would be no diminution in the research monies and staff in Western Canada.

Ho wever, su bseq uently the announcement came from the Federal .Government where. in fact, staff persons were reduced and we did voice our opposition with them. In fact, copies of some of that correspondence were given to the Honourable Member for Gladstone who raised this matter with me during the Estimates debate. MR. J. DOWNEY: In view of the fact, Mr .

Speaker, that under this government and this Minister of Agriculture, there hasn't been an increase in crop research or research in agriculture at the University of Manitoba, and in view of the fact that we have been aware for some time now that there was going to be funds available from this research fund, why did the Minister not request funds from that fund? If he hasn't done so, will he now contact the Minister of Agriculture and ask for specific funds to be spent in Manitoba and just not take the willy-nilly approach that he takes on all other agricultural issues, Mr. Speaker? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, first of all, I don't accept the honourable mem ber's premise that there is no greater funding for agricultural research in the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, the level of funding of direct provincial monies is held in terms of annual increases in terms of the last decade. In proportion, we are going into the third year of similar funding that was in place previously. As well, Mr. Speaker, there is an increase in funding that's available to universities in research from government, and that is through the Agro-Man Agreement, which is jointly funded, and there is an increase this year over last year.

That doesn't mean to say, Sir, that governments are the only research funding agencies for the universities. The universities do receive much of their funding from outside sources. We have kept pace in a traditional sense of the amount of monies available to the university and we have increa sed the funding through the Agro-Man Agreement, Sir. Tourist In formation Centres MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. M. SMITH: Mr . Speaker, earlier tod ay, the Member for La Verendrye enquir ed about whether there had been a delay in the opening of the Tourism Information Centres.

I have information now that they normally open on the May long week end. In this case, that will be the 21 st of May, so it follows; there has been no dela y. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, can I ask the Minister of Tourism whether there has been any change in the staffing patterns for the tourist booths? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there has been some change, but I would like to take that under notice in order to get the details. MR. B.

RANSOM: As a further supplementary to the Minister, would she have her staff check again on the opening dates of some of the tourist booths, because it's my understanding that some of them opened at the beginning of Ma y. Telephone solicitation MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Ho nour able Mini ster responsible for the Mani toba Telephone System. Has the Minister been receiving many complaint s regarding what appears to be an unusual increase in telephone solicitation that goes on these evenings and days when one is at home? MR .

SPEAK ER: The Ho nour able Mi nister of Government Services. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, I know that the Telephone System has received complaints from that, Mr. Speaker, but I have not received a number of complaints in my office on that, although I am aware that there are people who have been soliciting over the phone more and more. Certain ly, it is something the Telephone System is looking into, but it is something that they cannot very easily control as the honou rable mem ber is certainly aware. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, I am aware of at least one complaint that the Minister has in writing because I have received a copy of it as well as he.

Indeed, the individual involved makes the case that the Telephone System not only can control it, but in this particular case, does he agree with the position that's been put forward that Manitoba Telephone System is contributing to it by the publication of the Who Called Me Directory, which indicates the person to whom each phone is assigned, and under these circu mstances is very very much now encouraging and increasing the amount of telephone solicitation since the people now know the name of the person they are calling and can make a very polished direct appeal over the telephone.

Does he agree with the position that the telephones are, in fact, contributing towards it by this sort of publication? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have asked for a report from the Telephone System on that and asked for more information. I have not .received that 2278

Monday, 2 May, 1983 report as yet. When I do, I'd be pleased to share the information with the honourable member. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Time for Oral Questions having expired, Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DAY COMMITTEE CHANGE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MRS. D. DODICK: A change, Mr . Speaker. Public Utilities and Natural Resources - the Member for Radisson will substitute for the Member for Springfield. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: I move, seconded by the Minister of Energy and Mines, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and th e Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Sup ply to be gra nted to Her Ma jesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Education, and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - NATURAL RESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: The comm ittee please come to order . This

section of the Committee of Supply will now be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Natural Resources. As is customa ry, we shall begin with a statement from the Honourable Minister who is responsible for the department. The Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you and other members of the Legislature for this opportun ity. As is often the case when I have some formal remarks to pr esent, I ask staff if they can to make me some notes so that I won't ignore some of the details of im portant programs eithe r thro ugh omission or neglect on my part.

So I will follow the prepared text of some notes that my staff have prepared for me and they do quite properly , I think, highlight the major thrust of the department. But before doing so, they did not outline for me some kind words that I ought to say about the department itself. Obviously they felt that if I wanted to say anything, I should prepare those remarks myself. I do want to say, Mr. Chairman, that I find the Department of Natural Resources a department of interesting ch allenge.

It ha s a grea t di versity of departmental program, and with that diversity comes a great deal of initiative and program that affects many, many people in Manitoba. It is a department that, th eref ore, ha s a very high level of conta ct with individuals, and it is a department that requir es a good deal of talent on the part of staff in meeting and coping with the multitude of details that involve such a broad range of program. I want to indicate my appreciation.

I don't often do that even informall y, because - I don't know - I just suppose I hesitate to say nice things about people because they think I'm flattering them. I dislike flattery, Mr. Chairman, and maybe that's why I have a natural reluctance to say things that people may think are just kind words said just because it is formal to do so. Therefore, when I say that I appreciate my staff, I say that with all the sincerity I can muster. I have a Deputy with whom I am proud to be associated. He copes with an enormous amount of detail.

I make very heavy demands on him and I must say that I find him totally co-operative, and I don't know how anyone could run a department without having a Deputy as Nick Carter is. I also have two excellent Assistant Deputy Ministers in the person of Derek Doyle and Dale Stewart, thoroughly knowledgeable about the department, very co-operative, still very, very much full of ideas and initiative, and that certainly assists me and, of course, Mr .

Carter in formulating answers to the multitude of problems, and trying to deal with the problem of ongoing demands within the department in a time when we are forced to retrench somewhat, and practice some measure of fiscal restraint because of the difficult financial times that we in the province are facing. I should go on perhaps and detail the excellence of the personal initiatives on my behalf by my staff, Linda Gril ley, and Kathy .

My Executive Assistant Ranne Dowbiggin, whom I can quite candidly say is on leave right now out helping Dave Barrett, I hope, form the new government in the province of British Columbia. She's away at her own expense and at her own time. My Special Assistant Lee Monk is like my left arm. She is very, very knowledgeable now of the department, and is a delight to have with me, assisting in meeting the problems that face us, and particularly in the area of assisting where there is personell development in program because she is just marvelous in that area. Well, Mr.

Chairman, I could spend a good deal of time talking with sincere delight at the department. Yes, I should also note that my Legislative Assistant Don Scott is someone who - and I don't need, Mr. Chairman, a great deal of firing up at the best of times, but I can tell you that Don Scott can fire me up to a white heat in respect to some issues that affect us as citizens of Manitoba in respect to protecting the diversi ty, and the beauty, and the tremendous worth that our natural resources bring to the people of Manitoba.

It is with a very heavy sense of re sponsibility that we addre ss problems in respect to natural resource management, protection, and enhancement. Now, Mr. Chairman, having said those things that are off text, let me follow what is perhaps much more effectively worded in respect to the prepared text. In introducing the Estimates for the Department of Natural Resources, I would like to highlight some of the main points we will encounter as we go through the details.

As you know, of paramount impor tance in discharging the responsibili ties of the department is the need to conserve the natural resource herita ge of 2279

Monday, 2 May, 1983 Manitoba and future generations. We try to maxim ize the long-term economic and social benefits of these resour ces to Mani tobans thr ough an integrated resource management approach which focuses on four distinct program areas: 1. Outdoor Rec rea tion - The depa rtment is responsible for ensuring that Manitobans, wherever they live, are provided with a diversity of outdoor recreat ional opportunities which consider the enduring needs of society; 2.

Economic Development - Through protection, enhancement and management of the natural resource base, the department is responsible for ensuring that existing resource ha rvest ing operations can be sustained and that new development opportunities can be undertaken. The depart ment's programs also recognize the importance of resource harvesting and water management to the economic development and prosperity of local areas within the province; 3. Subsistence - The department is responsible for prov iding the needs of su bsistence users in a management and allocation of resources; and 4.

Public Safety and Protection of Property - The department is responsible for providing protection to Manitobans from floods and from forest fires in the wooded districts of the province, and for minimizing the adverse effects of natural resources and resource uses on public safety and proper ty. In addition to these four major program areas, a diversity of support services essential to program delivery and to the delivery of programs by other departments or agencies is also provided.

Included are engineering and construction services, survey and mapping, and water-related assistance to conservation districts, municipalities and other agencies. If it is to do these things well, the department must determine the advantages and dra wbacks of the diverse and often conflicting poten tia l uses of resou rces , both consumptive and non-consumptive, in order to arrive at sound and fair allocation decisions which reflect the best long-term interests of Manitobans.

We have very many lines of communication and co-operative working relationships within the department and with others who uti liz e or are affected by na tural resou rces management. The development and maintenance of legislation which reflects the needs and aspirations of Manitobans is essential to the meeting of the objectives I have outlined.

Mem bers will be familiar al ready, with the proposed revised Water Rights Act, the main thrusts of which are to tighten our licencing procedures, clarify transferabilit y, make sure that water can be reallocated if not used, and tighten up the regulations regard ing unlicenced use, obstructions and diversions. This is the point to mention the proposed new Wild Rice Act as one element in our task of trying to bring order to this industry. This has been a difficult task thorughout the past year, and only experience in implementing a new approach will help us tune the benefits.

I hope that this resource can be managed to provide a real opportunity for those involved to earn a reasonable return, and that a high proportion of Native people can be encoura ged to take a leading role. I will provide details when I introduce the bill in the House. Let me talk about forestry, because I am quite proud of the pace at which we are going as a part of what amounts to the correct ion, all over the country, of past omissions to ensure this resource is sustained. The numbers will come up when we reach the Capital Estimates.

We have seedlings already growing in the new nur sery at Cl earwater la ke, in gre en hous es constructed in 19 82. I think I should also mention that I expect to reach an agreement with the Federal Government very shortly on a cost-shared, regeneration and renewal agreement. Last in this list of forestry achievements of the past year, the attack on Dutch elm disease has been pressed with rigour in co-operation with the municipalities. We push on two fronts in the fur industry.

On the one hand, an attack on trapping and trapping methods in Canada's market countries is not confined to seals alone; we support the Federal Government in its efforts to preserve the fur industry as a whole, realizing that it is an important source of income to Manitobans. On the other hand, though over the long haul we expect the Fur Institute of Canada to pick up further work on humane trapping, in the last year we field-tested nine models in co-operation with local trappers, familiarized staff and mounted an extension effort to 100 trappers. I visited many fishing communities in 19 82.

I cannot profess success in resolving the problems of allowing more entries to the fishery or enlarging the quotas in the face of declining market prices, but substantial progress was made in providing more, say, in the management of this resource to communities, and this effort must continue. I would like the department to maxim ize the authority given to local people to manage the resource - my managers should see themselves as facilitators for the fishermen and experts on the kind and quantity of fish to be harvested. Our efforts on the Garrison are dir ectly pertinent to the welfare of Manitoba fishermen.

You will see that these Estimates provide for a continuation of the 1982 thrust, the high point of which was the information that the House of Representatives voted 252 to 152 against new funding for the Garrison Diversion Project. I do not claim that the Manito ba-Canada influence had an enormous effect - I simply say that I think we were right in the activities we set up and they have helped thus far.

I would like to invite members to look at the apparatus in the Surveys and Mapping Branch office at 1007 Century Street, which is being utilized in a series of experimental programs in co-operation with the Federal Government. Through satellite imagery, projected on comp uter scre ens, we can now ma ke accurate measurements of the amount and kind of ground cover, inventory, our forest stock, the habitat characteristics, etc. This, to my mind, is a very sophisticated advance over past methods in these fields. You will have noticed that the new Atlas of Manitoba is now available.

I am certain that this work is second to none in the country - a real bargain, to be sold at cost for $51 .00. This committee needs no re-introduction to the parks system of the province - while I expect to be questioned at length on fees. But there are one or two important highlights. We will rebuild the fishing facility for the handicapped at the Portage Diversion. All through the parks we move to accommodate their special needs. Oak Hammock Marsh facilities are another example already completed. 2280

Monday, 2 May, 1983 The Whi teshell Master Plan has again received a tremendous amount of attention in the last year. We will act on the matter in the very near future. Lightning detectors, to provide the patterns of strikes, will be operational in 1983. These devices will enable us to better direct surveillance efforts. Coupled with substantial continued attention to great efficiency in modern fire attack methods in the Regional Services Branch, I am particularly proud of the way Manitoba is fighting forest fires. I should say something about the necessarily delicate nature of some of our enforcement efforts.

I think we fail, as individuals in government and as residents of Manitoba, to acknowledge the dedication of our front­ line forces - the 200 or so natural resource officers who put into practice the actual management of the resources and interact all the time with people who make use of them. This is a doubly difficult task when the rights of one group in society appear in conflict with common practices or perceived preferences of another. I refer, of course, to Treaty Indian hunting and the many representations I am receiving on that matter. I can proceed only with caution as the debate continues.

Until there is a reasonably specific outcome within the context of Native rights under the Constitution, I do not believe the department's enforcement role can be other than to ensure that the existing law is upheld. As I hope the discussions in the House have made clear, I see no advantage in pursuing the Federal Government on altering

Section 13 of The Natural Resources Transfer Agreement. On the other hand, there is no doubt that some of our game is being taken at a pace which threatens the existence of the species. I have initiated consultations and discussions which I hope will make the situation very apparent to treaty people. I have considerable faith in this government's ability to ameliorate excessive domestic hunting through means other than the pursuit of new laws- laws which, over the long haul, are unenforceable unless massive amounts of funds and personnel are applied.

Finally, as we move into the details, I expect the usual tight questioning on when we can expect to build Joe Smith's particular piece of drain or why we didn't allow Mary Jones to put up the third story on her boat house. I suggest that the rules, in very many respects, were invented over the past several decades in face of need rather than political persuasion. I know that partisan debate is the way and the weft of our collective lives.

I do urge, however, that your examination appeals to common sense and that your inquiries, as they undoubtedly can be, will be strongly slanted to the improvement of this enjoyable portfolio for which I am responsible. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair wants to react to what the Minister said about giving recognition to people. If there is one thing that motivates people towards faithful and efficient performance of duties, it is the generous giving by executives and supervisors of recognition wherever merited. I would have no hesitancy giving recognition to employees who perform their duties well.

HON. A. MACKLING: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: We now hear from the main opposition critic, the Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. it's proving to be an interesting start to the Estimates of the Department of Natural Resources. Let me, in the first instance, thank the Honourable Minister for his statement and ask him whether or not it would be possible, as it has been somewhat of a custom although not a requirement, if copies of that statement could be at some time during the portion of the Estimates made available to members of the opposition. I'm sure we'll find them interesting. Mr.

Chairman, certainly I would like to associate myself and my colleagues with the comments made by the Minister with respect to the staff of the Department of Natural Resources. Unlike the Vice-President of the Metis Federation. we don't regard them as alien individuals and we have a highest regard for their professionalism and for their capability and dedication to carry out their departmental functions as guided and as dictated to from time to time by the Government of the Day. Mr.

Minist er, I mention this only because you mentioned it, that it was a privilege on your part, and you thanked us for giving you the opportunity of presenting these Estimates to us. I want to remind you, it's not a matter of privilege or not a matter of thanking us. it's a matter of legislative requirement. lt is the most important legislative requirement. lt is the whole reason why we have a parliament.

What in effect you are doing, sir, is acting in the capacity of a representative of our gracious sovereign, Queen Elizabeth 11, that asks to take some $81 million from the taxpayers of Manitoba and then spend it in a prescribed way, and the whole raison d'etre for parliament began by common people saying to kings and monarchs many centuries ago, no, you can't have that money until we approve of your spending of that money. That really is the function that we're carrying out here. By the way, it is perhaps one of the more fundamental differences between members opposite and members on this side.

We regard that to be the most important function of parliament rather than seeing how much legislation we can clutter up the books with, whether it's compulsory seat belt legislation, or helmet laws, or what have you. it's the people's money that parliament has it roots in terms of its being. I know the Member for The Pas appreciates that little history lesson because it is an important one. Mr.

Chairman, more so for the benefit of my own members who last year got out of hand in the consideration of Estimates of this department. allow me and I will ask and seek the Chairman's support in this matter. lt would be our intention, Mr. Chairman, to pursue in the departments, in a proper form, and not engage in any lengthy dissertations on subject matters that are more legitimately discussed under the last item, the Minister's Salary.

Furthermore it's not our intention to use what has, in fact, become the custom the2?cond item, Administrative costs, or the item for Executive Administration, which has often been used to in effect debate the Minister's Salary in a general f�rm, in s� much is that the Minister's Administration costs do impinge on all aspects of the department. 2281

Monday, 2 May, 1983 Th erefore, we would leave ma tters of great importance such as the Garrison, or the question of major water development programs or the lack of them, some of the fundamental issues on wildlife management that we are, of course, interested in as a result of work done by the department such as the five-year study, to the Minister's Salary and will debate them at that particular time . So with those few comments, Mr . Chairman, we are prepared to proceed . We note, of course, that there is not fundamental difference in the dollar requests before us.

Last year the department year ending March 31, 19 83, it totalled some 81 ,397,000; the request for this year is $8 1,882, 100.00 . We will, of course, be asking questions about shifts that are occurring within the department. We see some areas that ob viously ha ve received some hi gh er priorization; some that we will agree with, some perhaps that we'll disagree with. Mr. Chairman, I'm prepared to deal with the first item. MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we start formally with the second item in the Estimates, the Chair wishes to invite the members of the departmental staff to take their respective pla ces.

Deferring the Minster's Salary to later consideration, we are now starting the Departmental Estimates with Item No. 1. (aX2), in the Estimates. The Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: The Minister can facilitate the Estimates by indicating where there have been any significant increases in staff. We note that in this item, the increase would appear to be nominal and no particular increase in staff has been made. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that the change is a very small one; this is in the staff itself. The change is from $33,200 to $34,200.00. It's the same component of staff-years.

I don't see that there is any significant change there at all. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (a )(2 )- pass; 1. (a)( 3)-pa ss; 1. (a)(4)- pass; 1. (b)(1) - the Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr . Chairman, can the Mi nister indicate to us what particular studies are in front of the Manitoba Water Commission at this time? HON. A. MACKLING: The Manitoba Water Commission have completed a dr aft in respect to the Oak-Plum Lakes study. They have had referred to it a study of Lake Dauphin, and they have another matter that - I don't think it has crystalized - has it crystalized to a point yet where? - no, all right.

We have another matter which we have in mind to refer to them very shortly, but I guess I'd better not confirm that yet. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, did the Manitoba Water Commission deal with the situation on Pelican Lakes? HON. A. MACKLING: No, I didn't think it was important. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, these studies - the Mi nister answered the question just a little while ago in the House on Oak Lake and Plum Lake - these are in draft stage and not ready for release at this time. HON. A. MACKLING: That's correct. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (bX1)-p ass; 1. (bX2)-p ass; 1. (cX 1) - the Member for Lakeside. MR. H.

ENNS: Mr . Chairman, I take it this salary request for some $5 1 ,200 principally involves the office known as "Focus on Garrison" in the legislative basement. HON. A. MACKLING: The 51 ,000 is salaries in the Focus office. That's correct, for two people. That's Mr . Clarkson and his secreta ry, and 12 8,000 is other Garrison expenses. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister indicate to us where we're at? We're aware of what the Garrison office is fundamentally about downstairs; they gather a lot of the information, news releases and they are sent to us.

But what kind of a public role are they currently playing? Can the Minister give us some indication of the kinds of calls upon their office, what kind of traffic is going through that office, or is it essentially a matter of interdepartmental or even intergovernmental, municipal and otherwise, dealings that the office deals with? Are Manitoba citizens calling upon the function of this office in any large numbers? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Clarkson has been co-opted for a number of studies related to other matters within the Department of Natural Resources, but his salary is charged to the Focus office.

I can say that, in respect to the operation of that office, it is not only an area where people can get information, but we do assist the individual voluntary groups in co-ordinating any efforts that they are formulating in respect to the anti­ Garrison activities that they have had ongoing for some time. Gerry McKinney at Brandon co-ordinates his activities through that office, advises as to when he plans to go down to Washington. He was down there recently. He did a lot of the arrangements through the Focus office. He had his news conference in the Focus office.

The Action Committee on Garrison here in Winnipeg too, util izes the facilities. We provide, through that office, a gathering point and a focus for anti-Garrison activities. Mr. Clarkson is engaged on a fairly steady basis in communi cation with our legal firm in Washington confirming timing of initiatives, in communicating with the Federal Government on my behalf, and there is a fair bit of activity taken up in that kind of day-to-day work by Mr. Clarks on. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, one further question.

Is this appropriation, $51 ,000 which is for the maintenance of the Garrison Focus office - where in the Estimates, indeed if anywhere in this Minister's Estimates, are any additional funds that the public has called upon in support of the Garrison cause? HON. A. MACKLING: Nowhere. MR. H. ENNS: That's it? So Mr . McKinney or other citizen groups do not receive from this department direct funding for their activities? 2282

Monday, 2 May, 1983 HON. A. MACKLING: No, Mr. Chairman. While different action groups wanted to have funding from government, we felt that it was inappropria te for a number of reasons. One is that it could, perhaps in the eyes of the proponents of Garrison, indicate that there was some su bterfuge, tha t government was arming private individuals to being lawsuits or do things that we were not prepared to do ourselves. We thought that funding should be restricted to only those matters which government does itself. We do, howe ver, give to those groups suppor t services.

That is, if they have a need for information, we can either try to find that information ourselves or faci lit ate their finding the information. We ha ve telephone services, communication services which we put at their disposal when they need it. There is indir ect assistance, but no formal funding at all. MR. H. ENNS: Mr . Chairman, with the keeping of my earlier remarks in mind, we are prepared to pass this item, not for a moment indicating to the Minister that he won't hear considerably more about the Garrison Diversion.

The opposition feels strongly about some of the positions that we are finding ourselves in with respect to the Garrison and what future course of action should be taken, but my judgment is that it can be better dealt with in the Minister's Sal ary. HON. A. MACKLING: Very well. Mr . Chairman, I might add that, depending on when we arrive at that item, I may wish to confirm to members other information about developments as they proceed.

As I've indicated in the House, in response to the honourable member's earlier question, we have had discussions with people in Washington - I have and others - about the timing of any further delegations or individual visits there and the ma keup of th ose de legations. I ha d th ose discussions with people in Washington and with people in the Federal Government, and that's very, very much in the work at the present time and I will be coming back with further information to members in respect to that. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (c)(1) - pass; 1.(c)(2)- pass; 1. (d)(1) - the Mem ber for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, in keeping with the action taken by some of this Minister's colleagues, who are well on the way to successfully ema scu la ting the Government Information Services Department, most notably the acquisition by the Minister of Education, for instance, for some six of seven people headed by a dir ector, one Wayne Boyce, taken from the Government Information Services Branch to develop in each Minister's office, a super propaganda group, can the Minister indicate to me, is this the case in his department? I noti ce a salary incr ease of some $50,000.00.

Does that just reflect a general salary increase of the Civil Service or, in fact, has the Minister seconded or taken from Government Information Services staff members, in addition to the normal complement of the Public Information Services of the Department of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the latter fact is the case. It's the normal increase in dollars, resu lting from general salary increase - no increase in staff. MR. H. ENNS: Mr . Chairman, I note in the Annual Report that the Information Services Branch indicates increasing requests from the general public.

I believe the figure of 21 percent is used in terms of numbers of calls that the department is handling, dissemination of various information that the department is called upon. I would assume that most of that has to do with the ongoing functions of the department, in terms of tourist information, in terms of parks information, in terms of fishing information, terms of parks information, terms of fishing information, sports angling and so forth. Would that not be the case Mr. Minister? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, very much so, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1. (d)(1 )- pass; 1. (d)(2)-p ass; 2.(a)( 1) - the Member for Lakeside. MR. H. EN NS: Mr . Chairma n, this Admin istrative Services is currently dir ected by whom? HON. A. MACKLING: By Mr. Peter J. Lockett and there's really no change in this

section of the department over last year, Mr . Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)( 1)- pass; 2. (a)(2)- pass; 2.(b)( 1) MR. H. ENNS: Pardon me, Mr . Chairman, a little bit too fast. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.( b)( 1) - the Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: The Minister indicated in his opening remarks about the tremendous assistance that he was getting, I believe he described it that he was truly his left arm.

I pondered over that momentarily and if I had to describe somebody's assistance to me as being as great as my left arm, that may or may not be considered a complim ent, being right-handed - I haven't noticed which hand the Minister normally uses. But seriously , in Personnel Services, there's of course, the line function of the department, the Director of Personnel Services, which involv es personnel problems within the department, as distinct from anybody operating directly out of the Minister's office. Has this area of the department seen any changes in terms of staff or additions of staff? HON. A.

MACKLING: No additional staff, Mr. Chairman. MR. H. ENNS: Mr . Chairman, over the past, I suppose, thr ee to four years now, because of some very fundamental realignments within the department, it would be fair to say - and I would certainly acknowledge that as a former Minister - that one doesn't undertake these kinds of changes without creating in some cases legiti mate, in other cases not so legit ima te, but nonetheless serious staff problems. The Minister is aware of what I'm speaking of.

Can the Minister, in general terms, indicate to us that he is satisfied that these have, by and large, been overcome or are there continuing difficulties in terms of staff allocations, staff moves? I'm thinking particularly of the melding of the Parks Branch within the staff and the realignment of some of the Water Resources personnel, etc. 2283

Monday, 2 May, 1983 HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I do want to confirm what the honourable member has indicated, that very significant changes in the organization of the department had taken place, reorganization which I think was necess ary. It's true that when you get consolidations, you do get upheaval, you do get change that is unacceptable at times to certain individuals, but by and large, I think that there is a good cohesion of the department.

There are still a lot of working -together matters to continue to look at and from time to time we'll want to be able to redeploy people within the department for specific tasks. But the very significant reorganizations that occurred have been completed and I think most people, if not all now, within the department recognize the worth of the reorganization and are adjusted to it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Chairman, I was just wondering to the Minister, under what

section would the wild rice aspect be able to be discussed? HON. A. MACKLING: Under Crown Lands. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (b) (1) - pass; 2.( b)(2)- pass; 2.(c)( 1) - pass; 2.(c)(2)- pass; 2.(d)( 1) - pass; 2.(d)(2)­ pass; 2.(e)( 1) - pass; 2.(e)(2)- pass. Resolution 17 0: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,555,900 for Natural Resources for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March 19 84- pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a) (1) - the Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr .

Chairman, could the Minister - this is relatively small group of specialists advising the department and the Minister on the larger resource questions facing the department, could the Minister just indicate who those people are at the current time? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr . Minister. HON. A. MACKLING: Under the first item, Resource Admi nistration, we have the two Deputy-Min isters who I have already acknowledged, Derek Doyle and Dale Stewart and their staff. If you're looking at the next item, Resource Allo ca tion, we' re looking at Mr . Bossenmaier's staff and his staff compri ses of Mr.

Maydaniuk, Thomasson, Barto, Vogel, Gla sgow, Schell, Marrio tt and there is one Biologist 4 position that is presently vacant. All those positions have been filled by those people for some time, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (a )( 1)- pass; 3.(a)(2)- pass; 3.(b)( 1) -p ass; 3.(b)(2)-pass; 3.(c)( 1) - the Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Again as in the case of the Manitoba Water Commission, can the Minister indicate whether or not there are any very specific problem areas or programs that this group is directing their energies towards?

I cite for example, the continuing problem of loss of habitat for wildlife or the reaction to and some departmental planning to the five-year report on wildli fe. Have they been assigned - what I am asking for is what is on their hot grills at this time? MR. W. McKENZIE: Front burner, Har ry. MR. H. ENNS: That's right, what's on the front burne r, that's what I was looking for? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr . Chairman, this group headed by Wayne Fisher is kind of like an overview group and perhaps if I could read what the manual indicates as their activities, it would give the generality of their actiities.

The Economics and Program Review

section provides the department with an economic advisory and analytical service aimed at assisting program managers in achieving the efficient effective use of pu blic funds. Activitie s include evaluating the effectiveness and/or impact of existing programs. Mr. Carter tells me now, they are looking at, for example, the efficiency of our firefighting technique, analysis of the statistics, the fire statistics, an analysis of the method of operation and the success of our water bombers, evaluation of vehicle use, and the evaluation of user surveys, both angling and hunter surv eys.

Those are some of the things they have ongoing. They evaluate the effectiveness - oh, I' ve read that one - assessing the potential impact of proposed new programs, undertake feasibility and benefit cost studies. I have mentioned the user studies in connection with angling and hunting, assisting program managers in establishing measurable goals and obj ectives, undertake management information reviews, review and recommend changes in departmental fees and charges. I guess we had them busy on that just recently. MR. SPEAKER: The Member for Emerson. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Is thi s the group then that recommended the increase in the rates that cottage holders will be paying at this stage again? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, the actual rate decision is a political one. I mean the buck stops with the politicians, but the department brings forth the alternativ es in adjustments that can be considered and gives the department information as to what is being charged elsewhere and what are the norms, etc. MR. A. DRIEDGER: The reason I raise the question, the Minister says the buck stops at his place.

Was it his decision then or was staff rec omm ending an increase, or was staff not recom mending an increase, or was this the Minister's whole decision then regarding the increase? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, in respect to fees, I don't think that's an area where we try or would expect, or anyone would want to say that it's a staff decision or it's a staff area. They give us the comparisons, but any increase or no increases is one that I make in conjunction with my colle agues. I am sure it was the same in the previous admin istra tion. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Then the Minister accepts the sole responsibil ity for that decision? 2284

Monday, 2 May, 1983 HON. A. MACKLING: Sure, I'll accept it. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Pursuing that a little further then, if I may, Mr. Chairman, there has always been lots of reference made to consultation by this government to consult with everybody. Maybe to pursue that a little further, if the Minister made that decision regard ing the increase in rates, I wonder whether he would want to clarif y the consultation that has taken place between him and the cottage owners, by and large, who seem to feel there has not been consultation taking place. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr .

Chairman, in respect to rate increases, I guess it's true of a good many governments that sometimes you don't consult where you know the answer is going to be, you know, do you want higher taxes, do you want to pay heavier impositions. I think the consultation would indicate no. There has been extensive consultation with particularly the Whiteshell cottagers in respect to the de velopment of the Whiteshell plan, general policies in connection with it.

So far as consultation is concerned, I have always indicated to groups like the Whiteshell Cottage Owners' Associat ion, their presidents and so on, my door is open, I welcome their dialogue. As a matter of fact, I am going to be meeting with them at 5:30. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c)( 1)- pass; 3.(c)(2)- pass. Resolution 118 : Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $760, 100 for Natural Resources for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 84- pass. 4.(a) (1) - the Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: I notice an increase of some $70,000 here.

I would simply ask the Minister again if that is, by and large, the general Civil Service salary increase, or whether or not there is any new staff? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that is the case. It arises from the general staff increase. The increase in salaries are are 13 staff years unchanged from the previous year. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)( 1)-pass; 4.(a) (2)-pa ss; 4.(b) (1) - The Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: On the Water Licensing aspect of it, I have a few questions here that I would like to dir ect to the Minister.

Could the Mi nister maybe clari fy the system that is in place right now in terms of the licencing, if somebody wants to for example apply for a licence for irrigation, what is the procedure that is taking place right now, because we have a bill in front of us in the House that is dealing with this aspect of it to some degree, and I would like to pursue that to some degree? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr . Chairman, because of the concern in respect to the need to provide for a more effective regulation of water use, there has been no new licences issued for irrigation for some time. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Are there applications coming in though quite regularly for applic ations for licence for irrigation? HON. A. MACKLING: There hasn't been any significant number, particularly since the tightening of markets and the economic difficulties that the province, and farmers are no exception, have encountered generally . MR. A. DRIEDGER: Well, what happens to those that do make an application? Are they being deferred, or are they being rejected out of hand? HON. A.

MACKLING: If there is an applicant; that is, if the honourable member has a constituent or whatever that was intending - he puts his application in, it would be processed in the normal way, and pursuant to the provisions of this Act, there would be a licence issued for that. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Is the Minister telling us then that actually no licences will be app roved until the present bill that is before the House is passed? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, the present system will prevail until this bill is passed, but given the economic circu mstances we've had no flood of people wanting to invest money in expensive irrigation systems. MR. A. DRIEDGER: If this bill then gets passed in the House, hopefully with some amendments, would the supposed moratorium then be lifted at that stage of the game? Would applications then be processed for those that do make applications or this freeze, supposed freeze, or sort of freeze going to be in effect for a long period of time? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, maybe I'm guilty of the confusion.

If I indicated there was a moratorium or freeze, such isn't the case. There has been a continuation of existing policy, and when the new Act is passed then it will be possible to licence irrigation applications in a more effective way we believe. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Then I'd like to get down to the licencing aspect itself. The bill is before us, and I know we have the opportunity to debate it there, I have some concern about when does a licence termina te. If a person sells property where an irrigation system is on right now, my impr ession was th at licenc e will automatically termina te.

Am I cor rect in that assumption? HON. A. MACKLING: That's correct, Mr. Chairman, but the pu rchaser of the land can make application for the water licence that the vendor holds, and I would believe that in almost all instances those applications would be approved. Where there would be any conflict, then there would be an opportunity to look at that. If there was a decision, a refusal, on the part of the Minister to transfer the water licence, then an appeal could be taken to the municipal board in respect to that.

So the clear intention is to prove for transferability of the water licence upon disposition of the land. But there are instances where it will be important to have the water licence severable from the land; instances where people will not want to give up to their water licence, but they may want to sell half of their land or whatever . 2285

Monday, 2 May, 1983 MR. A. DRIEDGER: Well, I have some concerns about that, some grave concerns. With the termination of the li cence, the moment somebody is sel ling land, I personally would like to see more of a transferable type of a situation where if a person sells a property where an irrigation system is in place that it would be an automatic transfer unless there was certain reasons to the contra ry. What we're doing now, we're terminating that licence and then the individual has to reapply and that creates concern.

I don't know why we can't, because next thing I can envision the Mi nister getting involved and saying, well listen, you're paying too much money for this irrigation system, because there's a government licence, and then getting involved in that aspect of it. I personally feel very strongly that the licence should go with the proper ty. If the man has spend thousands and thousands of dollars putting in the system, and for whatever reason quits farming, or wants to get out of the business, that he should be able to recover his capital input into that thing.

By not being able to transfer the licence, I feel there's going to be difficulty corning out of that. I think the possibility of unjust treatment for some of these people is definitely going to be there. HON. A. MACKLING: Well, Mr . Chairman, I listened with interest when the honourable member spoke on this propo sed bill, the bill we have before us in the Legislature, and I will respond to those arguments when I speak again in the Legislature.

I'm sure tha t there'll be represe ntations at the committee stage in respect to these matters, and there will be more than ample time to weigh the arguments that members may have in respect to the particular principles embodied in the bill. I would hesitate to endeavour to do that on this occasion because there will be that added opportunity to do it later . While I'm prepared to make argument general ly, I wouldn't want to get into the detail of it, because there will be another opportunity for it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Hono urable Mem ber for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I think my colleague raises a very important point and it's certainly one, as he's already indicated, we will discuss with the Mi nister in further discussion on Bill 12, the Water Rights Bill currently before the House. Allow me simply to indicate to the Minister, though, that while I can agree or share to some extent his conviction that in most cases the transferability will be provided by perhaps the present Minister, or with the act as it now stands, it doesn't have with it the certainty that investors of land often require.

Let me, for the Mi nister's edification, simply relate a little bit of history. I can recall, Mr. Chairman, when I first was thinking about buying my ranch property up in the Woodlands mu nicipa li ty, I was , of cour se, extremely interested, and was not interested in buying the deeded land unless I was assured of getting the Crown land that was currently being leased to the party that I was buying the land from. What I was then required to do, in fact , was the mode of operation. One had to kind of make a deal under the table with the departmental employees.

You would take the person that you were going to purchase the land from, and go and visit them up in the Norqua y Building and assure yourself, to the point where staff just about agreed to sign the lease should the sale proceed. Because, you see, I wouldn't proceed with the sale unless I knew the Crown land was going to accrue to that same prop erty. That is how for many years transferability problems were dealt with in the area of agricultural Crown lands.

It then took an enl ightene d Conser vative admin istration to come along and to change all that and put it on the table, and where we have, and the Minister in his Crown lands deals with that, in the case of agricultu ral Crown lands, trans fera bility is automatically put into the lease. I have such a lease now. As a result, it does two things. It assures a potential purcha ser - should I be rewarded in some not too distant future and perhaps grace the Canadian Senate and leave ranching . . . A MEMBER: Corne on. You might become leader, Harr y. Don't write yourself out of it yet. MR. H.

ENNS: . . . that the purcha ser knows with certainty that that transferability of land, that economic unit, will be one. He doesn't have to depend on the Min ister's good will or the good sense of the departmental officials administrating that department. Mr.

Chairman, the point that my colleague, the Member for Emerson, makes is extremely valid, because it is precisely in those nuances where a great deal of difference lies in terms of whether or not a prospective purchaser is prepared to commit and sign documents, in some instances worth several hundreds of thousands or half-millions of dolla rs, and without that kind of automatic assurance. Mr.

Chairman, I agree with the Minister that what we are doing, of course, is telegraphing to him some of the positions that we will be taking on The Water Rights Bill and we think there is nothing wrong with that; some of the amendments, in fact, we will be introducing to that bill and speaking very strongly for. But I thought in support of what my colleague was saying, that ought to be put on the record. The fact that the department is not receiving a great deal of applications at this current time is not surprising in lieu of what's happening in agriculture generally .

We have had some tremendous strain and difficulties in the agriculture community. Some of our very promising irrigation operators have been literally forced out of business as a result of falling commodity in grain and cereal grain pric es plus rising costs of fuel and energy that has made, for the time being, the demands on irrigation and water rights not as imperative as they were, say, three or four years ago. But I would sincerely challeng e the department that this is precisely the time to get your house in order . I do commend the Mi nister for using this time to bring in the Water Rights legislation.

If, regrettab ly, economic conditions provide the department a bit of br ea thin g space to get their pro gram toget her supported by legislation, then that, of course, is what this time should be utilized for. There is no question in my mind that the day will come where the demand 2286 I I

Monday, 2 May, 1983 for water and the attendant licensing requirements for water will pick up sharply again and the department would be well-served to then be in a position to respond to it. With those comments, Mr . Chairman, I am prepared to ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin-Ru ssell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, regard ing the legislation and the studies that have been done on the groundw ater situation, I wonder, can the Minister advise how serious is the water problem, because the headlines that hit the weekly papers in Roblin on the wee kend says, "D rought prospects loom. Government plan for water shortage," and then the

article was signed off by the Minister's comments that we should be ready for a drought. Is it a general problem all across the province or are we referring here to the study that was done in the Swan River along the western part of the boundary by PFRA a couple years ago that ind icated a shor tage of groundwater? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr . Chairman, I hope that people don't take my concerns out of context. Our concern, when we look at water supply, is a long-range concern.

The department hasn't suggested, nor have I indicated, that there is a drought problem very imminent; that is, that we have a serious decline in groun dwater supplies or surface water suppli es. We have one or two aqu ifers where there has been stress and we are concerned about that but, by and large, we have been very fortunate. Our ground water suppli es are good. We have, however, been looking at the longer-term problems associated with water supply, because we know that it's im portant to ha ve a continuation of good level in our aquifers.

So we don't want people to take water for granted, because we know that the demands are increasing. As I indicated in my remarks in the House, the demands for use of water have escalated very, very substantially in our western provinces and in provinc es west of here. We can expect, as the Honourable Member for Lakeside has indicated, that the demand will grow and the ir rigators will want more water , more ground water. They'll want more water from our rivers and streams. We have been involved with the Federal Government in what is called an Interim Agreement on Water Supply and Drought Proofing.

It's a federal-provincial study and, through that study, we look at ways of ensuring a supply of water for - as the term indicates - ensuring that commu nities will have sufficient water and there will be sufficient water for the use of those people who have already developed a reliance upon those water supplies for irrigation or farming general ly.

For example, one of the concerns that has been evidenced to me in respect to some of our rivers and streams is that, if there is a dam that is offensive, take it out but over the course of years, some of these dams were put in to ensure a stock watering supply for agriculture . . . MR. J. DOWNEY: I hope it's the Ha rtney Dam. HON. A. MACKLING: The Honour able Member for Arthur has tri ggered on the one I was referring to; I know that there are some people would like to see that dam removed.

But we do have structures throughout the province that have been put in there to ensure that there will be a supply of water for agricultural purposes. MR. SPEAKER: The Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: I have a few follow-up questions on the Water Licensing aspect of it. What is the cost involved at the present time when somebody applies for a licence? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, we could get the specific s of that, but it is a pr etty ,nomi nal fee arrangement, ju st the costs of process ing the documentation, something like $5 or $10 - I don't know. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Is it anticipated that there will be an increase when the bill passes; that in the future there is going to be an increase? The reason I raise that question is - and the Minister is sort of looking a little skeptical of that - it ill ustrates all the more the reason why there should be a unilateral transfer allowed, rather than a termination of a licence and then the reapplication which gives the Minister then the power to . . . as he has done on his own with the increases for cottage owners, etc. The same thing could happen here.

I bring that up only because that gives him that power again to generate some revenue if he wants to, and make it exceedingly difficult. I just want to ill ustrate that. I still believe there should be a unilateral transfer allowed in the sale of a purcha sed property that has irrigation equipment on it. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr . Chairman, I recognize the honourable member's arguments. I will address those arguments later in the bill but, in respect to him saying that the park increases, etc., are just mine, I said that the buck stops with me.

I didn't say that they're unique to my thinking or that I am the only one that has anything to say about them. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Looking at the Annual Report, under Water Licensing, it indicates there were 15 6 applications received in the last fiscal year. Is the Minister indicating that all of these were not proceeded with, that they've all been put on hold? HON. A. MACKLING: I am given to understand that the bulk of those, if not all of them, would be relatively small livestock watering operations; no major irrigation applications. We might be wrong about that, but that's the information I have. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: So the se were approved though. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(b) ( 1)- pass; 4.(b) (2) - the Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. L. HYDE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister. First of all, Mr. Minister, I would like to inquire about 2287

Monday, 2 May, 1983 what position the Cland eboye Dam is in now. What are your plans for that? Has the construction started? Is it compl eted, or what? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr . Chairman, the Clandeboye Dam, blocking the water flowing from Lake Manitoba into Clandeboye Bay in the Delta Marsh area, was in serious disrepair . There were arguments about the need for that dam at all. Arguments were advanced that it should be removed. Those arguments were finally acceded to and the dam is being removed, so the water now flows freely from Lake Manitoba into Clande boye Bay.

There is no plan presently under consideration to replace it. MR. L. HYDE: I'm glad to hear that, what you are saying then, The removal of the total dam is completed? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. So far as I know, it is. I was there and looked at the operation as it was ongoing, and I believe it is now complete. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Minister, is there any chance, Sir, that you would be doing much of the same practice in the western marshes, that is, west of the village of Delta itself?

Over the years, I understand that the channels have plugged, whether by natural causes I don't know, but however they presently are plugged. I am wondering if you would be considering doing likewise to the west side as you have to the eastern portion. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr . Chairman, I'll be happy to look at that. I haven't heard of any plans, or I really don't know the specific s of what channels the honour able member is referring to. Perhaps they are channels that have silted up over the years. MR. L. HYDE: I would like to be able to name the actual channels by name, but I can't. I know that they are there.

HON. A. MACKLING: The west side of the Delta Marsh. MR. L. HYDE: Yes. I know they're there, Sir, and have, I believe plugged up, as you say, through silt. HON. A. MACKLING: I see. MR. L. HYDE: One more question, if I may, what are your plans - have you any plans on the construction of a Holland dam? What is your thinking on that? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. A. MACKLIN G: Mr . Chairman, th at "dam" question has arisen and it's been brought forward to a num ber of Mini sters of Na tural Resources.

I understand that it is part of the PFRA study, a long range study, and it's still very much, I guess, a gleam in someone's eye. It hasn't been written out, but it's far from being approved either. MR. L. HYDE: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gla dstone. MRS. C. OLESON: That Assiniboine-South Hespler Study, there is a great deal of concern in the Holland area and, of course, stories running rampant about what kind of a dam and how high and how far it's going to back up the water, and how many farms it is going to destroy ... MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, pardon me. Can we deal with Water Licensing first?

MRS. C. OLESON: I thought we had. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. H. ENNS: I bloody well run my ship the way I run it, that's the trouble with your ship, you guys got no discipline. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(b) (1) is passed. 4.(b)(2) is under consideration. Is it passed? 4.(b)(2)-pass. Now the Member for Gladstone has the floor . MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you. As I was saying when I was interrupted by my colleague, there is great concern in that area.

Last summer, I think it was Ju ly, there was a meeting in the community of Holland at which time there was a great deal of discussion about keeping the citizens informed of what was going on. I am wondering, Mr. Minister, if you have any plans or your department has any plans to hold regular meetings in the area to explain the stages of this program. HON. A. MACKLING: Just a moment. I just want to refresh my memory on that. Mr.

Chairman, that Assiniboine-South Hespler is in such a prelimina ry stage, a pre-fea sibility stage, that it is not considered appropriate to endeavour to elevate expectations by commencing a consultative process, because it could well be that the pre-feas ibility studies will indicate that it shouldn't go at all. So we are not at the stage yet where we would want to elevate expectations. But, Mr. Chairman, when we do have concerns made to us in respect to the possibility of tha t de velopment, we do re spond and provide information as to where the pre-fea sibility study is at and what the expectations are. MRS.

C. OLESON: I keep getting inquir ies from people in the area who are concerned about their farming operations and just how much long-range planning they can do and how much money they can invest in their farms when this is looming in the distance. I am wondering if the study is on target as to the report. Have you any idea if the report will be ready by 19 84, as it is supposed to be? HON. A. MACKLING: The information we have, that's just been given to me is that it's late 1984 the pre­ feasibility study information should be available. MRS. C. OLESON: Late 19 84. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur . 2288

Monday, 2 May, 1983 MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr . Chairm an. I appreciate the time is slipping away and I have quite a few questions to ask, but I will start out by asking the Minister basical ly, is the reason that Tommy Weber's not with us during the Water Resource Estimates that he has been removed from the position, or not here to provoke questions from the opposition, or what would be the particular reason that Mr. Weber is not with us today? I would ask if he has been remo ved from the department or doing something else. Mr. Chairman . . . HON. A. MACKLING: Can I answer that one, Mr. Chairman? MR.

CHAIRMAN: Before you go to another question, the Minister wants to answer the first question. MR. J. DOWNEY: I'd be pleased if he would. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I had the benefit of Tommy Weber's assistance earlier on today in respect to a matter. He had to rush out to Portage la Prairie to deal with another matter out there, and that's why he is not here today. He will be with us tomorrow morning. MR. J. DOWNEY: In other words, he's got him on the flood patrol, Mr . Chairman. He is out fighting floods, not fires. Mr .

Chairman, the concerns I have dealing with the management of water are not new to the Department of Water Resources or the Department of Natural Resources. They have been with us for quite a few years through several adm inistrations. I guess a more basic question is, in view of the fact that the Provincial Government, as of an hour ago, the NDP Party's credit rating has been reduced to a AA minus, and the fact that there is a shortage of funds, Mr.

Chairman, that any proposed water projects - whether it be dams, major reservoirs, any major ditching, or that type of thing, will not be taken on in the next year or two. That, in fact, any proposals, or any programs that this government have are strictly on a hold pattern. Is that correct, Mr . Chairman? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr . Chairman, I believe we'll be getting to a point in the Estimates where there's Acquisition and Construction. We'll be dealing in detail with those questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(c)( 1) - the Member for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman.

Well if the Minister doesn't want to deal with it at this particular time, well then, let us ask, in the Water Ma nagement area, some two weeks ago there was a group from the R.M. of Pipestone in, requesting the Minister establish a Water Mana gement Committee dealing with the Pipestone Creek, dealing with the Moosomin Dam, to make sure that Manitoba gets enough water, or the people living along the Pipestone Creek - towns like Reston and farm communities in Manitoba - that we, in fact, get our share of the water, not in one shot at the spring of the year, where we're supposed to get 50 percent of it, but that it in fact, be regulated over the period of the year and that we, as Manitobans, whether it be local people or governmental people, be involved in the Ma nagement Commit tee of the reser voir at Moosomin.

I understand that the Minister met with these people. I was unable to meet with them that day. They were pleased with the meeting and left that meeting with the feeling the Minister would request Saskatchewan or the PFRA and Saskatchewan Governments to ask Ma nito bans to partici pate in th at ma na geme nt committee. Has the Minister taken any action or will he take action imm edia tely to establish such a management team on that reservo ir? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I want to confirm what the honourable member has said.

I had a very good meeting with a group of interested people in that area dealing with the Pipestone Creek and the release of water from the Saskatchewan Dam. I share the concern that perhaps the releases are not made in a manner that gives a reasonable allocation of the water to Manitoba users, and according ly, have written to the Saskatchewan Minister, asking him to facilitate a meeting of the officials to deal with the equitable sharing of water from the Pipestone Creek. MR. J. DOWNEY: So, as I understand it, the officials are going to meet to discuss how a committee could be established. Is that correct? HON.

A. MACKLING: Well, Mr . Chairman, I've written to the Saskatchewan Minister, in wh ose jurisdiction the dam is, and asked him to facilitate a meeting of the officials to review the equitable allocation of water, because I believe that there should be a review of how that water is released. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, before the time runs out for this afternoon's meeting, I would ask - and I will have some more questions on it later on today.

But I'd particularly like to know, because of the flooding on the Souris River at this particular time, what is the current status of the outflow of the Lake Darling Dam, which is apparently causing a lot more water to come into the Souris River watershed at this particular time, than say several weeks ago. What is the current status of the flow out of the Lake Darling Dam? Is it wide open or is under some control at this particular time, as of today? HON. A.

MACKLING: I think that specific measurement of flow, we'd have to give to you - perhaps, I don't know whether we can get that for this evening, but we'll try and get it as soon as possible. MR. J. DOWNEY: I'd appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. As well, Mr.

Chairman, several weeks ago, I had written a letter to the Premier and I'm not sure whether he got a copy - I think the Premier did send a copy to the Minister of Natural Resources, where the Governor of the State of North Dakota and the Premier of Saskatchewan had established a joint committee of the two juri sdic tions headed by the Premier and the Governor of the State, and asked the Premier of 2289

Monday, 2 May, 1983 Manitoba to partici pate or have someone from his government participate on a Souris River Management Team, where acitizens or a local committee, not so much of local people, but . . . HON. A. MACKLING: Sounds like 4:30 p.m., gentlemen. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour being 4:30 p.m ... . MR. J. DOWNEY: I've talked into a lot of mikes, but that's the first one that's talked back. Is it 4:30 p.m., Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, it's 4:30 p.m. MR. J. DOWNEY: I'll get into this again after supper, Mr . Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hour being 4:30 p.m., the committee will break up its proceedings for the Private Members' Hour . SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, R Eyler: Committee come to order . We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Educa tion, Item 5, Post-Second ary, Adult and Continuing Education. (

a) Division Administration:

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if before we get into this item I could ask the Min iste r's consideration. We were going rather quickly through a number of items at the end of Thu rsday evening, and we were attempting, on this side at least, to enable the Estimates to proceed relatively quickly through to the present stage. I have a number of notes that I've made along the way of things that I wanted to ask the Minister and I went by one item. I wonder if I could ask her one question.

I could leave it until Minister's Sala ry, but if I ask the question now, perhaps she could bring back a response at the beginning of tonight. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, I'd be quite happy to have the question asked now. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, the question has to do with the general area of curriculum development, new program ming, and sort of presenting a balanced due, which I assume that is still the objective of the department in all areas of curriculum that we don't particularly attempt to sort of direct the peoples thinking into one area.

There were times when I know there were disagreements as to the amount of content of, say, labour education that was in curricula. There was suggestions that perhaps too much emphasis was on the free enterprise system or something else, and on and on. The one area that was brought to my attention about a month or six weeks ago, there was a person in the city who was speaking to a number of groups about the theory of creation as opposed to the theory of evolution as a legitimate and valid thoery, as he called it, that ought to be taught in the public school system.

He put forth the position, which seemed to me to have some valid ity, that if evolution is considered to be a valid theory and, of course, a century ago or even less than that there were tremendous battles as to whether or not that should be taught in our public school system, and it has gone to the point that it is taught and accepted by educators throughout North America at least and, in fact, was placed in that position by a legal decision, and that the pendulum has swung to the extent that because there is a religious connotation or a perceived religious connotation to the theory of crea tion, that it is virtually not allowed to be taught in public schools throughout North America.

This person is more or less a crusader putting that postulation forward in his travels across the country. The position that was brought to my attention, by some who discussed it, was that the man was treading on ground that made a lot of sense and he wondered as to whether or not there is any prohibition to teaching the theory of creation in Manitoba, whether or not it's encouraged in public schools, whether or not it's disallowed, and whether or not the Minister had any views on whether or not it ought to be recognized as an alternative theory and not as necessarily the only answer. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, I think the Member for Tuxedo was suggesting that he would communicate the area and that perhaps we could respond tonight. I could give some response now. I think there is some information that I can recall having with my curriculum material that will probably allow me to provide a little more complete one, so I'd appreciate putting it over until this evening. MR. G.

FILMON: Then as we proceed to the Item of Post-Secondary, Adult and Continwing Education, I wonder if the Minister would like . to just give us an overview of the cha nges that have been made in this area and perhaps with a new admin istrative structure in this area, whether or not she could set forth the goals that she might have in the near future, at least, in dealing with this very large and important area of education? HON. M. HEMPHILL: The Member for Tuxedo has asked a very small question with a very big answer. I'm going to try and touch on the main elements of it without sort of making a major addre ss.

The first thing he mentioned is that we had changed the organization of the department, and I might just comment on that, where we brought Student Aid, Adult Education and Colleges and Post-Secondary Career Development all together under the umbr ella of the Post-Secondary Adult and Conti nuing Ed uca tion Division. I think that one of the reasons that we did that is that we recognized the importances. All of our areas in education are important and all have their unique sort of responsibilities and roles to play in the educating of the people of Manitoba.

I think that when we pulled these groups all together, we really were beginning to recognize the increasing 2290

Monday, 2 May, 1983 importance of the del ivery of programs that would be del ivered throught the Post-Se cond ary Adult and Continuing Education Division and the importance of co-ordinating them and developing and working on them together, because they really were a number of sections all responsible for delivering programs in this area, who were working in isolation. I think we've found that it's much better for us to pull them together and to be able to see what development and what changes need to go on in each of the areas so that we're doing it from sort of a rational, logical approach.

The post-secondary education, the training, I would say that we've recognized a number of areas that are particularly important and that would have an effect on what I would call the goals. I will mention the areas of importance, and our goals and our programs will follow from them, but equity and accessibility certainly would have to be one of them. I might mention that the enrolment in general is up to what I think was the previous maximum in about 19 75, as all of our post­ secondary institutions have been increasing for many obvious reasons.

One is the employment situation, but I think another is the wish and the intention and the desire of many people, who didn't have an opportuni ty for education previous ly, to now be trained and to get skills so that they can expand their job opportunitie s and their skills and their horizons. So the se are the post-secondary institutions that are opening up access to post­ secondary training opportunities for people who didn' t have a chance before.

A lot of the programs are addressing the Native needs, the women - sort of single parent, immigrant, people who don't have what we might call traditional formal education; so equity and accessibil ity, I think, would be very important. Another one that we have identified, of course, is the training for the techn olo gies, the ind ustrial technological world that we're moving into, and the need for what would be our major training institutions in the skills, the training, the industrial training area, to keep pace so that the students are being trained to meet the reality of what the needs are in our industry.

I think flexibility and diversity - one of the things that we want to do with our post-secondary institutions is recognize that we can't keep continuing to deliver them perhaps in exactly the same old ways that we did before; that is, through the building of sophisticated large institutions with a lot of equipment, and the people in the province who want that training travel to the institutions.

There is a growing recognition that we need to use other innovative ways of delivering education to people, particularly in northern rural and remote areas, using innovative ways and the technologies in combination to deliver these. A couple of examples I could give would be the mobile training units that we're developing through the Skills Gr owth Fund, that we'll be able to go into some of these remote and Northern areas. Distance education I think, is another good example where we use the technologies related to di stance educ ation to get programs out to the communities.

I think by providing a range of programs through the col leges and Post-se cond ary Educ ation Tr ainin g Program do a number of things that recognize and meet the demands and the needs of society for the changes taking place in society; everything from that, the societal changes and the needs for programs to the high technology.

An example of that kind of diversity and capacity could be seen also through the Skills Gr owth Fund Program that we have just approved, where we are expanding child care on the one hand to recognizing and having adequa te abilities to look after children, recognizing that large large numbers of our mothers are working and large large numbers of them are single parent who, if they're ever going to have an opportunity to get back to school and to get the skills and the training that they presently don't have, that they're going to have to have help with their children.

So we have moved on both creativity, flexibility and covering the range of needs so that we're doing the social. I think we're moving and we need to move in areas like the handicapped where we're recognizing that people with visual or other handicaps should not be precluded from opportuniti es to train and to receive post-secondary educ ation oppor tunit ies. Our two programs in this area related to the visually impair