Manitoba Hansard — 12 February 1974 (Sitting 13, 30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-13

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Tuesday, February 12, 1974 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 295 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the Honourable Members to the gallery where we have 25 students of Grade 11 standing of West Kildonan School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Klassen. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks, the Minister of Health and Social Development. We also have 46 students of Grades 1 and 2 standing of the Viscount Alexander School.

These students are under the direction of Mrs. Poerson and Mrs. Enns. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Fort Garry. On behalf of all the Honourable Members of the Legislative Assembly I welcome you here today. Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements; Tabling of Reports. The Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources. TABLING OF REPOR TS HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Minister of Mines, Resources and Envi ronmental Man agement) (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to table the First Report of the Special Committee appointed to prepare a list of members to compose the Standing Committees of the House. MR. SPEAKER: Any other ministerial statements? The Honourable Minister of Labour. --(Interjection)-- Order please. MR. GREEN: ... it was a report from a Committee; it was not a ministerial statement. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. Order please. The Clerk. MR. CLERK: Your Special Committee appointed to prepare a list of members to com pose the Standing Committees ordered by the House . MEMBERS: Dispense. MR.

SPEAKER: Agreed? (Agreed) REPORT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE: Your Committee met and prepared the following list of members to compose the Standing Committees ordered by the House. PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS:

(12) Hon. Messrs. Doern, Evans, Paulley, Messrs. Axworthy, Brown, Einarson, Render son, Jenkins, Malinowski, McGregor, Patterson, Petllrsson. PUBLIC ACCOUNTS:

(12) Hon. Messrs. Cherniack, Toupin, Turnbull, Uruski, Messrs. Asper, Blake, Craik, Henderson, Johannson, Malinowski, McGill, Walding. PUBLIC UTILITIES AND NA TUBAL RESOURCES:

(12) Hon. Messrs . Evans, Green, Scrreyer, Messrs. Asper, Blake, Craik, Dillen, Enns, Jenkins, Osland, Shafransky, Spivak. AGRICULTURE:

(12) Hon. Messrs. Burtniak, Toupin, Uruski, Uskiw, Messrs. Adam, Bostrom, Derewian chuk, Einarson, Ferguson, Johnston (Portage), Jorgenson, McGregor. MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS:

(12) Hon. Messrs. Doern, Pawley, Uruski, Messrs. Derewianchuk, Gottfried, Graham, Johannson, Johnston (Sturgeon Creek), Marion, Moug, Osland, Watt. LAW AMENDMENTS:

(30) Hon. Messrs. Green, Hanuschak, Paulley, Pawley, Turnbull, Uruski, Messrs. Adam, Asper, Bilton, Bostrom, Boyce, Brown, Derewianchuk, Dillen, Enns, Gottfried, Graham, Jenkins, Jvhnston (Sturgeon Creek), Jorgenson, McKellar, McKenzie, Minaker, Osland, Patterson, Patrick, Petursson, Sherman, Spi vak, Walding. PRIVATE BILLS:

(12) Hon. Messrs. Burtniak, Hanuschak, Toupin, Messrs. Banman, Craik, Dillen, Ferguson, Malinowski, Marion, Petursson, Walding, Watt.

296 (REPORT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE Cont'

d) INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS:

(12) February 12, 1974 Hon. Messrs. Doern, Green, Paulley, Messrs. Dillen, Enns, Jenkins, Johannson, McKellar, McKenzie, Patrick, Patterson, Sherman. STATUTORY REGULATIONS AND ORDERS:

(12) Hon. Messrs. Evans, Hanuschak, Toupin, Messrs. Bilton, Boyce, Johnston (Portage), Jorgenson, Malinowski, Moug, Osland, Petursson, Sherman. ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT:

(12) Hon. Messrs. Evans, Green, Turnbull, Messrs. Axworthy, Banman, Barrow, Bostrom, McGill, Minaker, Osland, Shafransky, Spivak. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. RUSSELL PA ULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table the Annual Report of the Manitoba Labour Management Review Committee. Also, Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report for the calendar year 1973 of the Department of Labour. Also, Mr. Speaker, I have a- what may be considered as a Statement dealing with the matter of unemployment.

I have copies here for you, Sir, and leaders of the opposition parties in accordance with our rules. MINISTERIAL STATEMENT MR. PAULLEY: I would like to indicate, Mr. Speaker, that the unemployment figures indicate that Manitoba is still the third lowest province in relation to percentages in the Do minion of Canada, that while there was a slight increase in the seasonally adjusted rate of unemployment across Canada, Manitoba's seasonally adjusted rate went down in January from 3. 9 in December of 1973 to 3. 6. In January of 1973 the rate was 4. 2.

There was an increase in the total number of unemployed in Manitoba to 20, 000 in January, an increase of approximately 3, 000 over what it was in December of 1973. I'm sure honourable members who receive this information, Mr. Speaker, will be concerned as I am at the total number of about 20, 000 unemployed in Manitoba. Our labour force in January of 1974 standing at 409, 000 was 1, 000 higher than it was in December of 1973, and a whopping 18, 000 higher than it was in January of 1973. Total employment stood at 389, 000, a decrease of 2, 000 over the pre vious month but again a whopping increase, Mr.

Speaker, of 20, 000 over what it was a year ago indicating that while we have not achieved what is considered total employment at around about three percent that the economy of Manitoba .is still advancing. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BANMAN (La Verendrye): I would like to thank the Minister for the statement but I would like .to point out that there are jobs available in Winnipeg, jobs waiting up in the north, and the rural people in Manitoba are screaming for employees. How can this govern ment justify an increase of 3, 000 people unemployed? MR.

SPEAKER: Previous to-- the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. I. H. ASPER (Leader of the Liberal Party) (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, we view with some alarm the increment of 3, 000 un employed between the last report and this. I think it goes very much to what was said in this House last night by the First Minister when he was disputing the concerns that we had expressed as to the job picture in Manitoba because, Mr. Speaker, the unemployment rate today in Manitoba is 4. 9 percent. When this government took office it was 2. 7 percent.

The rate of unemployment in Manitoba no matter how you cook the books is up by over 100 percent. Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, no matter how you no matter how you gloss over the fact that the labour force is up, or more people are entering the labour force, Manitoba can only deal with this problem when it faces squarely and openly that it does have a problem, and we await other events in this session where the government may indicate that there is actually something on the table to discuss. Otherwise these minis terial statements and responses by the opposition remain meaningless. MR. SPEAKER:.

Prior to moving into Ministerial Statements I inadvertently moved too quickly and I apologize to the Minister of Mines and Resources. There is a motion to be made with that report.

February 12, 1974 297 TABLING OF REPORTS MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, with respect to the Report from the Committee of Seven Persons, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture, that the Report of the Special Committee of Seven be received. MOTION Presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Any other ministerial statements? The Minister of Highways. HON. PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Highways) (Dauphn): Mr. Speaker, I would like to at this time table the Annual Report of the Department of Highways for the year 1972-73. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of motion. The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs.

MINISTERIAL STATE MENT HON. RON. McBRYDE (Minister of Northern Affairs) (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, I am sorry. By leave I would like to make a very brief statement of a non-political nature. Per haps members might want to make a few comments on it. Mr. Speaker, I would like to invite the members of this House to ... . MR . WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): ••• wonder if we are still on ministerial statements in which case a statement would have the right of reply from the opposition. If we're still on that particular item of business well then there is no problem. MR. SPEAKER: Ministerial statements we're on. MR .

McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, I rose at this time during ministerial statements be cause I'm sure members of the opposition would like to make a comment or two on the statement. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to invite the members of the House to join with me in a non-poli tical manner to bring attention to an historic and traditional event taking place at The Pas, Manitoba. This of course is the annual Northern Manitoba Trappers' Festival at The Pas beginning February 13th and ending February 16th. That is, Mr. Speaker, starting tomorrow and ending on Saturday, or more probably early Sunday morning.

The pages are, or. will be, distributing some buttons and Trappers' Festival booklets compliments of The Pas Trappers Festival Committee. Mr. Speaker, as members are no doubt aware as many of them have attended in the past, and in fact I understand provided some of the entertainment there in the past, this is a well known event in the northern part of our province and consists of handi craft display, fur queen contest, tea boiling, log tossing, stage show, highlights, squaw wrestling, trap setting, freight race, fur competition, pole climbing, snowshoe races, flour packing, etc. , etc. , etc. , Mr. Speaker.

I would hope that members will get the badges and booklets that are being handed out and read through the booklets and if they are unable to attend, see what they've been missing, and wear with pride these Trappers Festival buttons that the committee has sent down for them to use. I would hope that some honourable members may be able. to attend and I know that they will join with me in extending congratulations to the organizers, Mr. Takashima and his hard working crew and in wishing success to this great event in northern Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. HARRY E.

GRAHAM (Birtle-Russell): Mr. Speaker, we all welcome the news from The Pas that the Minister has given us. If I recall correctly, Mr. Speaker, there have been times in the past where we have even set aside the business of the House for a day while the members did partake but, Mr.

Speaker, for those that want to take part at The Pas and come home a little bit early, may I advise the House that the Provincial Girls Hockey Tour nament will be held in Russell on Saturday and Sunday; so those that go to The Pas to the Trappers Festival can call in at Russell and view the Provincial Girls Championship Hockey Tournament. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, our group too would like to join in the congratulations to the Minister who represents The Pas.

As has been men tioned by the Member for Birtle-Russell in years past on more than one occasion the whole Legislature, or those who could, journeyed there and I can recall the late member for Rus sell along with the present Member for Virden added some flambuoyancy to the spectacle by the manner in which they arrived and the manner in which they departed; and also that the member for Assiniboia added something, I believe he was the runner-up in the final of the leg wrestling contest, --(Interjection)-- squaw wrestling contest, pardon me -- so we wish

298 February 12 , 1974 MINISTERIAL STATEMENT (MR. JOHNSTON Cont'd) ••• the people at The Pas well on their festival and that they have many tourists come and have some fun. MR . SPEAKER: Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills; Questions. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK Q. C. (Leader Official Opposition) (River Rights): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health and Social Development and it relates to the drug .substitution program which is now in operation and what appears to be another administrative nightmare. I wonder if he could indicate, Mr.

Speaker, how much notice was given to the druggists prior to the introduction of the actual plan. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. SAUL MILLER (Minister of Health and Social Development) (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, I deny the nightmare all�gation firstly. I believe the time was three months, but I stand to be corrected; I could certainly check that out. I know that the plan has been known to the Manitoba Pharmaceutical Association for probably six months, if not a year, and certainly to the various pharmaceutical companies. MR. SPIVAK: Yes.

I wonder if the Minister can account to this House for why there are not sufficient quantity of drugs to be used as substitution available under the plan. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, that question really is something that the pharmacies themselves will have to answer, the pharmaceutical companies and the wholesales will have to answer. I suggest that there may be some dislocations, or some period of time, while the thing gets geared up but I don't doubt that the firms will stock up as they would in any normal period and the drug substitution will be able to go forward.

I can also assure the House that, recognizing that there is bound to be a time lag and that pharmacists may have stocks on hand, or may be short on certain stocks, that it is the intention of the government to recognize this fact and to help the druggists to develop a program and see that it goes on track quite smoothly. MR . SPIVAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, another question to the Minister. I wonder if he can indicate whether the government gave the physicians in the province any warning that the drug substitution program was to commence. MR.

MILLER: Again I'm not certain, but I would venture to say with a certain amount of assurance that I'm correct, that in fact the medical profession was informed, and were aware of this program and when it was to go on track. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, this is a supplementary question and it's prefaced not in the hypothetical for the purpose of putting a hypothetical case because the case is real, but so that the Minister can understand the situation.

If a physician had provided for a pres cription for a patient and the drug substitution plan would provide now that the substitution take place by the pharmacist, and no notice has been given by the physician to the druggist, that the original drug provided is to be supplied and no other, is it automatic that the druggist must substitute and give the patient the alternative prescription drugs indicated by the govern ment? MR. MILLER: Mr.

Speaker, if the doctor prescribed a specific drug, a specific brand name, as he probably has done in the past, then the pharmacist must fill the drug that is specified on the prescription. If on the other hand, the medical practitioner has written a prescription which calls_ simply for a generic drug, then of course the formulary would apply. MR. SPIVAK: A supplementary question to the Minister. I want to understand this correctly,. because I do not think that this is the understanding . • . MR . SPEAKER: Question please, we're arguing it. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, if the physician has not specified that a drug substitute may be provided but has in fact specified a drug by its name, and that was specified prior to the actual introduction of the drug substitution program, is the druggist obligated to substitute now or can he continue on as he has been before with the only indication by the physician that the drug is to be used and no indication that no other substitute can be provided. MR. MILLER: I think what the Honourable Leader of the Opposition is referring to is probably repeat prescriptions.

In other words, issued perhaps two months ago and I think that's what he's talking about. I'll have to take that question as notice, Mr. Speaker.

February 12, 1974 299 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. --(Interjection)-- The Honourable Member has had two supplementaries; he's had about seven on the same topic. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. --(Interjection)-- Would the honourable member state his point of order, MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I don't think that I'm restricted to how many questions I can ask on the same subject, particularly with something that's germane, and particularly with something that requires information to be communicated to the druggists, the physicians, and the medical people , , , MR.

SPEAKER: Order please, I agree the honourable member can have unlimited questions but I must also recognize other members of the Assembly. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Health. My question is to the Minister of Health.

In view of the statement by the then Minister of Health on May 25, 19 72 in this Chamber, and statements made subsequent to that statement and consistent therewith, to the effect that Grace Hospital, old Grace Hospital, was to be refurbished as an operating hos pital for extended care, could the Minister indicate to us when it was decided, as he indicated in the House it has been decided, not to do that and to make Grace Hospital into an office bmiiliding exclusively for government staff? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. MILLER: Mr.

Speaker, I don't recall making a statement in the House on this, but I do believe that the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture did make a statement on this I believe last week when I was absent here in the question period.

I don't know the date; I do know that the whole matter was looked at and the costs of restoration, renovation and rebuilding were so very high that for the present - at that time it was decided that it would sim ply be used for the offices what's known as the western regional offices, I think, of the social services, v.hbh was one of tre uses which was originally planned for that building, Mr, Speaker. MR. ASPER: To the same Minister, Mr. Speaker.

In view of the fact that every de cision relating to this hospital and its use has been publicly announced, and in view cif the fact that he wrote a letter to all the people in the area saying that this is what would happen, why was the current decision to not proceed with the hospital development, why was this de cision concealed when every other decision was made public? MR . MILLER: Mr. Speaker, there was no attempt at concealing anything.

Governments entertain ideas, or programs, or projects, but then they would be foolish to simply enter into it when in fact research and studies indicate that the cost-benefit may not be what was indicated, and simply to go on the basis that one had an idea therefore one must pursue it to the bitter end is nonsense. MR . ASPER: To the same Minister, Mr. Speaker. Is he stating that it is a higher priority with his department to provide office facilities rather than hospital beds? MR. MILLER: Mr.

Speaker, if the honourable member will listen, he'll hear what I said a few minutes ago, The original plan calls for offices. MR. ASPER: No, MR. MILLER: Yes, it did. MR . ASPER: Here's the letter. MR . MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I'm not interested in that letter, I don't know, but I can tell you this, the original plan called that there should be offices and also some psycho geriatric beds.

It was on the psycho geriatric beds that the matter was resought and it was recognized that there were costs involved that were almost prohibitive, but the matter is still being looked at in the department, I believe, and if there is any utilization to which that building can be put at a reasonable cost, it will certainly be put to use. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. Two parts, if I may: (

a) will he table the studies that show the cost of converting or rather renovating of the hospital to be out of line; and (

b) does his announcement also mean that his statement in writing, and signed by him to the effect that there would be a park developed beside the hospital, is that also scrapped? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, there are two questions there. With regard to the first, I don't think I will table the information, it's an in-house study by Public Works and the De partment; the second question with regard to the park, the City of Winnipeg was contacted,

300 February 12, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. MILLER Cont'd). • • a proposal was made to them whereby lands would be made available to them if they wished to have a park in that area. To the best of my knowledge that offer was not accepted by the City of Winni}:eg. I don't know where it stands today. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR . ARNOLD BROWN (Rhineland): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct my question to the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. Can the Minister indicate what the current waiting list is for all nursing :.and personal care homes in the Province of Manitoba?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR . MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I believe that same question was asked yesterday. No I cannot indicate at this time what that waiting list might be. MR . BROWN: Mr. Speaker, I asked for the statistics for Winnipeg yesterday. A further question to the Minister of Health and Social Development. Could the Minister indicate if the figures provided by the Manitoba Health Services Commission are accurate? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, the figures for what? I didn't hear the last sentence.

The member is referring to figures by the Manitoba Health Services Commission, but I didn't hear what those figures pertain to. MR . BROWN: For nursing and personal care homes. MR . MILLER: Well, Mr. Speaker, the Manitoba Health Services Commission, if they have issued statements, or rather statistics, I have to accept or assume that those statistics are correct. They are the body that are charged with the responsibility; they operate the entire nursing home bed and hospital care bed facilities, it's under their aegis, and if they have issued statistics or figures I have to assume that they are correct. MR.

BROWN: Mr. Speaker, with your permission I would like to table these figures as furnished by the Manitoba Health Services Commission. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR . J. PAUL MARION (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the The Honourable the Minister responsible for Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. Would the Minister indicate the reasons for the astronomical increases? -in one case it is known to be 650 percent in the rate charged for vehicle liability to petroleum agents and distributors. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. HON.

IDLLIE URUSKI (Minister responsible for Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation): Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure what the member is saying, but I have here a rate comparison of rates to the trucking industry in Manitoba. Is that what the member is ••. MR. MARION: I am referring specifically to those distributed in the service field of distributing oil products. MR. URUSKI: I'll take the question as notice. MR . MARION: While the Minister is taking this question under advisement, there are a couple of other question that fall to him, perhaps those can be answered directly, or taken under advisement as well.

I wonder if the impact of these increases on the cost of doing business for these petroleum product distributors had been taken under advisement when the increases were made, because this business is marginal at best. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I've indicated, I'm not sure whether the member's figures the figures that he's quoted are correct. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please.

Let me indicate that it has been the courtesy in the past, and I don't think it would hurt in the future or now if members would give Ministers notice of their questions, then they could get precise answers and it would eliminate debate and confusion. I think that that's a custom we could very well adhere to. INTRODUCTION OF GUEST MR. SPEAKER: While I'm on my feet I would also like to indicate that we have in the loge to my left a former member of this House, Mr. Sterling Lyons. On behalf of the mem bers, I welcome you here. ORAL QUESTIONS Cont'd MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR.

MARION: Mr. Speaker, this is a final supplementary. I wonder if the premium

February 12, 1974 301 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. MARION Cont'd) •• increase in this case was ascertained by losses incurred by the speci fic group that we have in question. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the premium increases that were .announced were done in such a manner, but I might add that the rates for commercial truck vehicles are much lower in Manitoba in 1974 than the industries' rate anywhere else in the country in 1971. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE (Minnedosa): Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, my question will also be directed to the Honourable the Minister in charge of the Public Insurance Corporation. I wonder could he tell us has the Government of British Columbia requested assistance from this government or from Autopac in providing personnel to help them launch their compulsory auto insurance plan, auto plan? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR . URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure there have been possibly phone calls and the like, b.tt no people specifically went down from Manitoba to B. C. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR . J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): -Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. I ask him why the Farm Ou tlook Conference at Brandon which was established about 12 years ago by George Hutton, the date should be set to coincide with the vote on the amendment of the Opposition to the Throne Speech exactly on that same date? MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Minister. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture ) (Lac du Bonnet): Well, I suppose, Mr. Speaker, one could imply that we could have prejudged the date of the opening of the House some time ago in setting the date of the Outlook Conference in Brandon.

You know, I suppose the honourable member is having fun with us, Mr. Speaker. MR . WATT: A supplementary question, and I ask the Minister now again if it was deli berately done to keep the western members and particularly the farm members .. . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, The question is not proper .. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Attorney General.

Further to my question of yesterday considering the inadequacy of the Human Rights Commission to deal with problems of discrimination and housing in Winnipeg, is the Minister or the government now planning to make amendments or changes to the Human Rights Commis sion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister, the Attorney-General. HON. HOWARD PAWLEY (Attorney-General) (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, yesterday! said to the honourable member that the Commission was not defective. I do think however that there is need for strengthening of the existing legislation in The Human Rights Act. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Speaker, wruld the Minister consider inviting representations from private groups, civil liberties groups, and minority groups in the province before recom mendations or changes such· as he announced would be made? MR . PA WLEY: Mr. Speaker, it is really a good opportunity to highlight that when legis lative changes are to be introduced to the House that there will be more than ample opportunity for many representations and briefs from vari ous interested groups to Law Amendments Committee, and I would certainly look forward to the contribution that could be made by these groups. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGill (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable the Minister of Education and relates to a report of Friday last that there was a 12 percent pay raise granted to The Pas teachers in Kelsey School Division and the report contained comments by Winnipeg trustees. I wonder if the Minister could tell the House if there is a northern allowance built into the contracts of teachers in northern Manitoba and if! so, how much? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education) (Burrows): Mr.

Speaker, the matter of negotiation of collective agreements with the teachers is a matter strictly between school divisions as the employer and the teachers as the employees.

302 February 12, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . McGILL: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. I wonder if the Minister would comment on the allegation that northern teachers are paid considerably less than Winnipeg teachers. MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, it's a very interesting matter to raise for debate, but I'm sure that if I were to attempt to answer the question you would rule the question out of order and hence my answer. MR . McGILL: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary.

Is it true then, again referring to comments of Winnipeg school trustees, that northern communities are only receiving teach ers that the city refuses to hire? MR . SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The question asks for an opinion on the Minister's part and it's not relative to the procedures of this House. The Honourable Attor ney-General. MR . PA WLEY: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I was aked questions about the liquor store at Ainsley and Portage in St. James by the Honourable Member from Assiniboia.

I am advised that the store there is owned by the Commission but there is no available land there for ex pansion of the store in question. The building is too small to be an all brands store or to be converted to a self-serve store. In view of this the Commission has decided to close the store in order to redecorate it and make certain renovations, and it should be reopened about the middle of April and is intended to be a specialty store selling beer, wine, liqueurs and other .specialty products.

This store has been a low volume store and possibly because of the fact that there is a self-serve store at Portage and Ainsley and also one at Polo Park, which are volume stores for those particular areas of the city- I should mention that the store at Portage and Ainsley is a one and a quarter million volume store compared to the Polo Park store which is a three and one quarter million volume store. A MEMBER: That's a lot of hooch. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR . ASPER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the Attorney-General.

In view of his state ment and answer in the House, could he indicate to the House that -- whether or not in view of the ten percent rise in profits reported for last year by the government in its liquor sale operations will the government increase by the same percentage its gran:ts to the Manitoba Alcoholism Foundation for alcohol education? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, that would be revealed in the Estimates and as the honourable member indicated in his question it's a government grant rather than a grant from the Liquor Control Commission, and I believe is paid through - well through the Depart ment of Health and Social Services. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR . BANMAN: I direct my question to the Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce. Have any industries in Manitoba, in a group or individually, asked the govern ment for help in the immigration of workers? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. HON.

LEONARD s. EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Brandon East): Well, Mr. Speaker, as the honourable member knows there is one particular industry group that is very interesting in i;mporting workers from a low wage area of the world, and there has been some communication. There has been no formal brief to my knowledge; there has been no formal presentation or no formal brief presented by that industry group. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honour able the Minister of Labour.

In the light of today's unemployment statistics is the Minister meeting with leaders of the garment industry in Winnipeg to .determine whether any of the unemployment stream can be directed into that industry? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR . PAULLEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

The Minister of Labour has taken as a personal crusade to meet with the leaders of the garment industry, not only in the City of Winnipeg, but outside as well, to see what steps might be taken in order to employ unemployed Manito bans in the garment industry, and in support of the answer that my colleague for Brandon just gave to the Member for La Verendrye. There were some personal overtures, may I say, directed towards myself to see whether or not we could increase the training facilities of

February 12, 1974 303 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. PAULLEY Cont'd) . , , Manitobans in order to fit them into the garment industry. I'm hopeful, Mr. Speaker, that before too long as a result of involvement in the field of em ployment and training that we will be able to overcome the difficulty which is being faced at the present time in the garment industry, and I want to assure you, Mr. Speaker, and members of this House, I'm fully cognizant of the difficulties that the industry is being faced with at the present time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Well, Mr.

Speaker,my question first is to the Minister of Health and Social Devel opment, A few days ago he promised to table in the House the letter that the Premier would be sending to the Manitoba Health Organization Incorporated. I wonder if he has that letter, MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I don't recall promising that but certainly I'll try to get it here for tomorrow, MR . SPIVAK: Well, Mr. Speaker, I will table it in the House. But further than that- (Interjections)-- Well, Mr.

Speaker, I don't think it's necessary when the questions are asked that's a determination on the part of the government as to whether they want to answer or file the request for papers, But having said that I now want to refer to the letter itself which was signed by the Premier, A MEMBER: Question. MR. SPIVAK: Yes. My question, Mr. Speaker, relates to the letter that was sent by the Premier which I am prepared to. table into the House.

It asks the Premier how he can reconcile the statements that were made in the letter to the Manitoba Health Organization Incorporated by suggesting that home care programs, extension of pharmacare to the chroni cally ill, dental care for children, are in fact in operation with district and community health and social development centres? Is it not a fact that all of these programs are programs to come and that none of these programs are in fact in operation by the government at the present time? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Mr.

Speaker, funds were voted in Supply in this House last year to give some substantial expansion to home care health delivery. I'm surprised and astounded that the Leader of .the Opposition isn't aware of that since home care is a very important component of the total of health care delivery. And that's only one example. Pharmacare is also in process of extension and we are proceeding apace with the construction of personal care facilities, elderly persons' housing on a scale, on a scale that my honourable friend was never capable of undertaking. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Premier, is that how he can justify in the letter he forwarded to the Manitoba Health Organization Incorporated a suggestion that district and community health and social development centres are now operating dealing with the programs of home care, extension of pharmacare to the chronically ill or denta1 -::are for children. They may very well be in the planning stage but the letter suggests that ... MR . SPEAKER: Order please. Order. The honourable member is debating the issue. The Honourable First Minister state his point of order. MR.

SCHREYER: I'm quite prepared to answer the question but it involves precisely the kind of exchange of detailed information that comes during the presentation of the Estimates which, Sir, I would like to advise honourable members I will be tabling in this House this evening. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge .. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Health in his capacity as responsible for housing. Is it the practice for the government to lease housing units built under the public housing program to private commercial companies? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health.

MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, because that question was asked in the way it has I sus pect that something may be happening of which I am not aware. Therefore I'm going to take that questim as notice. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, while the Minister is taking that for notice would he also take for notice and provide an answer to this House, why in fact the Manitoba Housing

304 February 12, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. AXWORTHY Con't) ••. and Renewal Corporation is presently leasing public housing units in Leaf Rapids to commercial companies? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. May I again remind all 1\onourable members why do they not give notice, take the time to give -b e courteous enough to give notice and then they would get answers to their questions. MR. AX WORTHY: Well,- Mr. Speaker, I ••• MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: I would be pleased to give notice to the Minister then of one further question.

Would he also provide the answer, why those particular units built in Leaf Rapids are built at a cost of $34, 000 which is about $10, 000 more than comparable units built in Thompson and Flin Flon? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Insurance. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is in response to the question put to me by the Honourable Member from Portage regarding the business use category. The only per son who could really' properly determine the use of his vehicle for business use is the owner himself.

But if he is encountering difficulty in deciding whether or not the use of his vehicle is in connection with his business, trade or occupation., or used only to get to and from work, I would suggest that he contact the information centre or underwriting department of Autopac and explain his situation. Now the higher business rate premium reflects the overall greater exposure by the fre quency of use that this category has over the person who simply drives to and from work once a day.

Now examples of this - and he made examples in this question- say a substitute teacher wh:> teaches at various schools is simply driving to and from work as is a painter who drives to various job sites. Each job site becomes his permanent job, place of work for that day and he would not require business use.

However - and he mentioned the point of an elected official who, beside using his vehicle to travel to and from his permanent place of business, also utilizes his car at least 15 percent in the course of his civic duties would have to take business use, and if a person has a concentrated use of his vehicle for business pur poses driving say the summer months only, then he should carry business use for that period only. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, for clarification from the Honour able Minister that just made the statement.

How can a citizen of this province tell in advance if he's going to be us ing his car 15 percent of the time or not for business? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Health. It relates to a statement made by the Manitoba Hospital Services Commission Chairman to the effect that problems are arising from crossed purposes and rivalries that have existed between the Hospital Commission MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. ASP ER: I beg your pardon? MR.

SPEAKER: I believe the honourable member is aware that questions are supposed to be short, precise and to the point with not a tremendous amount of prefacing and the hon ourable member has been here long enough to know that. I ask hin to adhere to the rules. MR. ASPER: Well, Mr. Speaker, in view of statements reportedly made to the effect that there are, "rivalries and contests. . • ." MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR. ASPER: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The question is: will the Minister specify those problems that have arisen between those crossed purposes and rivalries that the Chairman said existed? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I haven't spoken to the Chairman of the Commission since that newspaper report came out, obviously today. I haven't seen it; the Leader of the Liberal Party has. I haven't seen it. He may have been referring to things in the past, I don't know. I can assure honourable members, however, that if there were rivalries they would disappear and that there will be one group working towards the achieving of what we all want to achieve in this House.

February 12, 1974 305 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister responsible for Autopac, and it relates to his statement a moment ago. Is it then a fact that to be within the law of Autopac regulations that every elected official in Manitoba who spends 15 percent of his time using his car on ci vie business should take the business rate? Is that correct? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. PAWLEY: That isn't what I said.

I said that if he was using it additionally to his regular employment then he would have to take out the business rate. MR . G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, if I could get some clarification. For example the 57 members in this room. • • MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order. MR. G. JOHNSTON: ... should they have the business rate because they're MLAs? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. URUSKI: If the member would like to phone the Information Centre I'm sure they will -- if he gives the particulars of his nature of business they will tell him whether he can use the business use. MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day.

ORDERS OF THE DAY - THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Rupertsland. The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, when I left off last evening I was dealing with that passage of the speech of the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition in which he was insinuating that the Manitoba Public Service was being used in a way that was at great variance. with the way in which long standing custom, tradition, and practice has used the public service, and I believe that I indicated that we have during our term of office proceeded with the retention of the same kind of yardsticks of measure, the same kind of merits testing, the same standard civil service procedures, as obtained in the past, and as obtained more or less in other juris dictions in Canada.

I went on to say that we have retained all, or almost all, deputy ministers that are of an age that have not caused them to retire. They have remained in the public service practic ally without exception, and those in the middle echelons, a good many have been promoted, some new people have been brought in, and Mr. Speaker, that is all in accordance with what any reasonable person would expect. But the unfortunate thing, Mr. Speaker, is that the Leader of the Opposition is not a reasonable person, particularly with respect to his thinking and his sarcastic comments relative to the public service of Manitoba.

He twists and turns on every occasion to try to insinuate that we are trying to put into the public service an undue num ber of persons based on political affiliation. There is no way in which one can be completely sure, nor is there any reason to want to be sure, as to what a civil servant applicant's polit ical affiliation, or position, or inclination is, and I rather suspect, Sir, that the procedure and practice we follow here is not different at all from the civil service .application selection procedures followed in the other provinces of Canada.

But so much is my honourable friend trying to find a basis of some substance to support his scurrilous attacks that he even made some reference to the number of early retirements that took place in the public service this. past year. And looked at superficially, which is my honourable friend's wont to do, it is apparent that there was some undue number of early retirements that took place in 1973 because, Sir, the pattern of the past five years is as follows: 1970 there were some 28 early retirements; in 1971-30; 1972-33; in 1973-86. So there is a deviation from a statistical pattern that

whereas it has historically been in the order of one-quarter of one percent of the total civil service establishment that have taken early retirement, this year it would seem to be something slightly in excess of one-half of one percent. Well, Sir, since the honourable member made some point of it, I made brief enquiry as to what might possibly explain this aberration and, Mr. Speaker, the answer is forthcoming. On the 1st of July this year, there was the proclamation, or the going into effect of changes to the Civil Service Superannuation Act, and any child could have seen that as a result of the abolition of a 15 percent penalty on early retirement down to age 60 within the public service,

306 February 12, 1974 THRONE SPEECH (MR. SCHREYERCont'd) •• that it would have some effect upon statistical pattern.

And it's as simple as that, Sir, that in fact just to - and if this does not put a conclusive edge to it, then obviously my honourable friend is not interested in the facts, that up until the 30th of June the day before the going into effect of the new Superannu ation Act, that the number of early retirements for the first half of the year was 11 which translated into a full year would be in the order of 22 to 30, let us say, which would be just exactly on the same pattern as in the previous years; but because this House approved, and I think, Sir, it is a matter -it is one of the many hundreds of accomplishments we should take some sense of satisfaction about, that we removed the early retirement penalty in the public service so that those for reasons of health, or for reasons of wanting a change in :venue, or different work, or simply wanted to try a hand at some new kind of work, and career, are able to retire at least from the public service without penalty, which previously was up to 15 percent.

So my honourable friend can ponder that and decide for himself whether he wasn't grasping at cobwebs or grasping at straws in trying to find some substance for his scurrilous attacks. Of course, he has repeatedly accused this government of hiring too many, or causing too many civil servants to be hired, adding to public service numbers and that they are writing useless reports, and he and the .Member for Lakeside have quoted excerpts from certain reports that have been brought forward from somewhere within the civil service compklment. Well, Mr.

Sp eaker, I have invited honourable members in the past, and invite them again, to run a comparison in terms of numbers absolute, to run a comparison in terms of percentage increase, to run a comparison of Whatever statistical type they like, so far as ratios of civil service in Manitoba today compared to 1969 or '68, and then take that as a ratio in comparison with other provinces in Canada.

We 11 whether they are interested or not in making that kind of comparison with years gone by and with other provinces in Canada that is the only fair kind of comparison that can be made, Sir, and I invite them again to let their intellectual honesty get the better of them and to make those kinds of comparison which would not be odious, Sir. But what about his practice of reading excerpts from reports that emanate from within the Civil Service on different questions and problems in public policy?

It is, of course, part of the very nature of government that in trying to grapple with different kinds of social and economic problems that we do establish task forces or committees within the civil service to attempt to analyse, marshal together the facts, and to come up with reports that will contain recommendations for action which then must be considered by government in Cabinet and Caucus assembled.

Well he finds that practice of summoning forth or asking that reports be brought forward is a sign that there are too many useless reports being written, and we all - how can we for get it, Sir, saw last Monday, a week ago, the honourable member, the Leader of the Oppos ition, pile high a list of - a series of civil service reports which he then proceeded to deliber ately sweep to the floor, to be picked up by the page boy. Well, Mr. Speaker, I will not comment on that except, Sir, that that is not parliament, that isn't parliament, Sir, and my honourable friend the leader of the Opposition ought to know it.

But I said I will not comment further on his performance in that respect, but I would like to do this -I would like to read from another civil service report that was summoned forward at a cost of something in the order of $500, 000 from the public purse, and I have the detailed breakout here, and the report reads as folJows - talk about politicizing the civil service, now hear this - and I q.uote from Page 66 of Volume 31 of a 48 volume study.

Talk about reports, and it reads - and talk about politicization - let me quote into the record the following: "That in Manitoba the govern ment seeks election in 57 constituencies." Now that's a rather amazing observation "In some of these a government finds greater difficulty in obtaining a plurality than in others. In the thoroughly political sense therefore some constitutencies have greater impact on the govern ment's overall ability to maintain itself than others.

We suggest a rating, we suggest a waking of constituencies according to their threat to the overall security of the government from least to greatest importance, as follows: No. 1 - Solid Opposition: seats traditionally held by the opposition where voting patterns are stable and there is little chance that govern ment action could shift the balance. No. 2-Solid Government : seats traditionally held by the government and where voting patterns are stable and predictable. No. 3-Volatile Opposition: seats held by the opposition where changing population pattel'Qf!', age groupings, or other factors

February 12, 1974 307 THRONE SPEECH (MR. SCHREYER Cont'd} .. make prediction of voting patterns difficult. No. 4 - Volatile Government- perhaps I could skip some of the wording here to save time. No. 5 - Marginal Opposition; and No. 6 - Marginal Government. "E ach of the some 300 programs of the government has a differing impact on the political scene in each riding. In some areas, for example, hospital services to Indians are of political significance.

In another riding vocational basic training for skill development meets a greater felt need and is more powerful in eliciting political response than the hospital program. In deed programs which are vote getters in some ridings may have a depressing effect on the electorate in others" - and certainly I say parenthetical, Mr. Speaker, that that certainly is true.

And it goes on, "a systematic comparison of each program against each riding yields information which focuses attention on those programs which are most important to the polit ical security of the government;• It's nothing to do with problem solving, if I may say as an aside, Sir. This has nothing to do with problem solving of the social and economic problems of our province. It has to do with how to better protect the political interests of the government - a report. brought in from within the bowels of the civil service supplemented by some $300, 000 to outside consultan ts.

They talk about using the civil service in a politici zing fashion - the wretches! -- ( Interjection)-- I was tempted, Sir, MR. SPEAKER: Order. The Honourable Member state his point of order. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order and for the record, and I think this is important and necessary because of the - really the allegation that the Premier is making. I wonder if lie would table in this House, because this is the first I am aware of this document's --(In terjection)-- Mr. Speaker, supposedly, Mr.

Speaker, supposedly from the civil service, and at this point until the record is clear, I am not prepared to comment on it. Now I would ask, Mr. Speaker, that not only that the Premier not only table this volume but table the 48 volumes -- (Interjection)-- No, let him table it in the House, let him table it in the House, and let it be a matter of public record, and let it then be in a position to be discussed adequate: ly. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. MR. SCHREYER: With respect, Sir, that is not a point of order.

But in any case I was about to say at the conclusion of my . quotation here, that I certainly am prepared to make this document available to the table. I am quoting from this document, Sir; the others, I had the box in here last night with all these documents, and I thought perhaps they should be placed on the edge of the desk so that I could .then proceed like a boor to sweep them off on the floor but, Sir, I said this is not parliament, that is not parliament, and I do not intend to practise that kind of disrespect for parliament. In any case, Mr. Speaker, I ... MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON JOHNSTON: I think that it would be very important that the Premier would identify the Premier whose. administration this occurred under because this could un fairly reflect on past premiers. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I certainly intend to indicate the title of this document, and indicate that it is one component volume of a multi volume study which was carried out in 1968 over covering -- (Interjection)-- well certainly it is a document to the government from within the public service, supplemented by outside consultan ts. Now, .Mr.

Speaker, the point of this is that if my honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition is going to be that unfair as to take a document, one of many studies and reports that are written, quote excerpts from it, and then try to use that as an argument that the government is politicizing .the civil service, then I simply indicate that here is evidence that if one wants to interpret anything that is of a political or semi-political nature in a study or report that is emanating from the public service, or the public servants, then clearly here it exists as well in the decade of the 1960s.

Now my honourable friends have started that kind of practice and last night we had the Leader, rather the Member for Lakeside quoting from yet another study or report, trying to leave the same impression that this was all part of a politicizing process within the public service - which I deny completely, as much as I am sure those who were in positions of re sponsibility in 1968 would want to deny completely.

308 February 12, 1974 THRONE SPEECH (MR. SCHREYER Mr. Speaker, this goes on for a number of pages and it ends with this paragraph: "That multiplication of the value assigned to the program riding assessment by the value for the riding itself yields a number giving some indication of political importance. The summation of these values for each program over .all ridings in the province yields an aggregate index of political priority.

It is probable that only a relatively small number of programs are highly important from a political sensitivity point of view, the implications for cabinet are obvious - the programs having a high sensitivity index must receive first attention in allocating funds. This is essential for the political security of the government. 11 Well, Mr.

Speaker, I didn't particularly want to put this on the record because I don't know the context in which this was requested, the attentin that may have been given to it, but if my honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition wants to quote paragraphs out of context with respect to certain studies and reports that have emanated from the public service in our time, I say that I can stand here and match him slug for slug of apparently politicized advice coming from within the public service. It's as simple as that. And I leave it to my honour able friends how long they want to carry forward on that kind of attack.

And I repeat, just so that there is no mistake about it, Mr. Speaker, that this is Volume 31 of a document called "Project Working Papers, Project 2 - Financial Management and Planned Program Budgeting, " . • • A MEMBER: It's marked confidential. MR. SCHREYER: . . . and its marked confidential, just as the document that my honourable friend-- (Interjection) -- Messrs. Falk, Hillis, Brown. Murray, Pratt, Vernon, Fluger, and then in addition to that --( Interjection)-- MR. SPEAKER: Drder please. MR.

SCHREYER: In addition to that, Sir, there is I have -- Oh yes, here it is -- some indication of the involvement of outside consultants on this Operation Productivity, P. S. Ross, Hillis Hickling, and others, and the cost, I say again, Sir, in the order of $500, 000 between May 1, 1967 - October 31, 1968, and I believe there was a residual of $7 0, 000 that was paid during -a residual of 70, 000 that was paid after the 15th of July when we formed the adminis tration. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I say only in passing now that if that was Operation Productivity, and I don't know why they needed any advice on administration, how better to administer, because they are the ones that pose, or at least the Honourable Leader of the Opposition poses as an administrator, or perhaps even a super administrator, but yet they somehow felt that insecure that they spent some $500, 000 on that aspect alone on administrative studies.

So, if it was Operation Productivity, Si-r, then in June 1969 it wasn't a very productive operation, that much is clear, and it was all a waste of time and money. -- (Interjection)- Yes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, I wonder if the First Minister would indicate whether it is a study of the study, if there is any indication anywhere that appointees should be made to the government and should be paid on the public purse whose sole purpose would be working for the political party. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I don't know, obviously not in the civil service, obviously not.

I do not accuse my honourable friends of practicing that but let them not in turn attempt to accuse us.

Because I say, Sir, and whether he believes it or not is of no particular concern of mine nor interest, that we feel confident that we are following essentially the same norms and procedures within the public service and relative to the public service of any other sister province in Canada, and I don't believe that there is any undue amount of nefarious maneouvering that my honourable friend would like to pretend there is, nothing much of deviance relative to the practice of obtaining here in this province in years gone by in this respect to either.

My honourable friends did their share of the commissioning of reports and studies, and I don't think that any one on this side faulted them particularly for whatever studies and reports they commissioned. I don't think that that was made, or any attempt was made to make that into an object of ridicule, but I' ve just indicated the nature of one kind of study. And then they had another - it culminated in the TED report. And there were numerous

February 12, 1974 309 THRONE SPEECH (MR. SCHREYER Cont'd) ••... studies, study reports that are ancillary and were prelim inary to the printing up of the TED report. What about the TED report? Has it been that useful to the public good of this . province? --(Interjection)-- The TED report. The Leader of the Opposition has recently discovered, for example, that - well, the TED report was his Bible. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I will now give the Leader of the Opposition another opportunity to decide whether really he wants to continue to regard the TED report as his Bible, because judging from his remarks the other day, it now seems that the Leader of the Opposition has recently discovered the problem of rural depopulation; and he periodically now makes some noises that something should be done about rural depopulation, and I welcome that change of interest and attitude on his part. But what does the TED report say in respect to the same problem back in 1967.

On Page 55 of the TED report - this glossy, expensive report or.study, says this : "The provincial net income target for income per farm indicates the opportunity for" - indicates the opportunity, Sir - "for 20, 000 farms in Manitoba by 1980. " In other words, ·cut in half from the time of writing in 1966. Which is another way of saying that they who ultimately put their signatures to that report, that they wanted 20, 000 fewer farms in the province than existed at that time.

And then again on Page 55, the reports states, and I quote: "T hat the projected natural decline in farms based on past trends would result in 30 , 000 farms by 1980. " In other words, the government couldn't - if government just left things alone there would be a few more farms. than they would consider desirable. ·However, ideological targets must be set and so the TED report continues on Page 57 to read, and I quote: "By 1980, the target of 20, 000 commercial farms, not 30, of 2 0, 000 commercial farms should be set. " That's the deliberate set objective target, 2 0, 000.

Wipe the others out or at least encourage them to get off. · Then we hear honourable members opposite in 1973 and in 1974 complaining a,bout world de population. Do they not realize that that kind of major, and recommended, deliberate decrease in farm population can only have a negative, stultifying, decaying effect on rural towns and villages ? Because one cannot separate that. What this means, Mr.

Speaker - well one must give the government credit for making hard nosed decisions, the past government, no matter what the cost to the farmer, the ideological commitment to fewer farms must be carriecj through. · ; Again, on Page 59 in this report that they commissioned - they accuse us of haVing too many reports. · Well, if we have· too many reports, Sir, they certainly had too many reports, and expensive ones; and ones whose recommendations went exactly contrary to the interests of rural Manitoba, because the TED report goes on on Page 59 as follows : "The targets of 20, 000 farms by 1980 , and an agricultural labour force of 30, 000 means that fewer people will be living on farms and depending directly upon farming for their incomes than at present. · The decline should be faster then than the natural attrition rate, and therefore people will have to seek new employment." Well, Mr.

Speaker, I am sure that the farmers of this province are quite happy to pay the half million dollars it cost for the TED report so long as they can be sure it will never be implemented in that respect. Let this much be clear, Sir, this government repudiates the TED report in this respect utterly. · We dedicate our policy, and we have brought this forward in a: study which they condemned, Guidelines for the Seventies . We dedicate our policy in this government to the stay option relative to rural Manitoba.

We realize that it is going to be, is, and will continue to be, a very difficult task and a very difficult objective to meet, but, Sir, but at least we are setting our sights high rather than looking down in despair. We will hope to be able to pro ceed with policies that will give the stay option concrete definition and make ·it a concrete reality. And that helps to explain why we are not prepared to accept the thought of - certainly we dismiss with one hand completely the idea of a deliberate fostering of the rate of decline of rural population.

And more than that, Sir, we resist the thought that it is not possible to do something to actually stop the rate of decline, and that is what is inherent in the concept of the stay option. And flowing into that is the reason why we have dedicated ourselves towards a number of programs such as the Special Municipal Forgiveable Loan Fund and other programs to help rural communities arrange to finance and build worthwhile local services and amenities of life. If the TED report were our guideline then clearly there

310 February 12. 1974 THRONE SPEECH (MR. SCHREYER Cont'd) .•••• would be no point in doing all these things because we would be expecting. in fact, waiting for a decline in numbers. And I will just conclude a reference to one of these other many studies that my honourable friends, the former administration, had in the TED report, Page 58, and I quote - honourable members will find this to be a very interesting passage - "By 1980, the target for gross farm income would be $800 million." Now, Mr. Speaker, that sounds like a very impressive figure compared with the 375 million gross income in 1967.

However, for the edification of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, I wish to inform him that farm cash income, in cluding income in kind, for 1973 is already reported at 678 million; farm cash income for 1974 is projected to be somewhere in the order of $830 million, six years ahead of the pro jections of the TED report. Well, this famous report, this famous report, Sir, which is only six years old, is already six years out of date in terms of anticipating the movement of farm income. --(Interjection)-- By six months, by six years, Sir.

It projected a level of farm cash income of $800 million, gross farm income by 1980, and Sir,. that target will be reached far before then. When my honourable friends read the TED report, no doubt they must be puzzled as to why public policy in the Province of Manitoba, why government in the Province of Manitoba would be providing financial assistance to communities like - one can simply name them; Deloraine, Roblin, Souris, Virden, Stonewall, Miniota, Rockwood, Cartwright, Lansdowrie, Roblin, Brenda, the R.

M. of Roblin, that is, the Village of Treherne, Manitou, MacGregor, Melita, Neepawa, just to name a few geographically dispersed communities in this province that are taking advantage of significant amounts of provincial financial assistance to do things and build things of a lasting nature and quality that my honourable friends didn't care enough to even start. If in the past communities could not afford to put in sewer and water service, if they could not afford to improve and upgrade recreation facilities and related amenities, that was tough, that was rural life, tough.

And of course I know now why they were not doing those things, because they expected the number of farms, as a matter of policy presumably, should be allowed to decline, and not only allowed to decline to 30, 000 but actually induced to decline to 20, 00_0. And that's the report that they were holding up as a Bible. Well, Mr. Speaker, before I conclude, I leave now this matter of civil service documents, reports, politicizing of the civil service, and the number and cost of reports, and I go on now to talk about hospital care, hospital facilities.

Because my. honourable friends in the past few days have been trying their very best to give momentum to the suggestion that we have some how sat on our duffs and failed to provide and build adequate health care facilities for people who are in ill health and require hospitalization, and who require nursing home care in their senior years. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I wouldn't want to deny that there may be from time to time some difficulty with respect to having always at every time, and every month, and every week, and every day, an adequate matching of acute care beds or nursing home beds in relation to those numbers of the population that need it.

But I want to hit on the head right now any suggestion that there hasn't been substantial action taken to expand and increase the physical quantity of acute care beds, extended care treatment beds, extended personal care, nursing home care, home care, ·a nd the whole spectrum of health care facilities that relate to the alleged current problem. I wonder if my honourable friends, if they think that there is a problem, and perhaps there is a problem of degree, but it is a problem of degree and it is not of major proportions, and certainly it is no crisis, as some of the members opposite would like to pretend.

If we have such an inadequacy of hospital beds today and or nursing home beds and elderly persons' housing, then what must it have been four or five years ago, Sir? Well, Mr. Speaker, the number of - the population of this province has increased approximately 20, 000 in the past four years, but the number of hospital beds and extended care beds, the nursing home beds, has been increased much beyond that.

Therefore if there's a problem today I assume that in general terms the nature of the population today is such that the incidence of illness re quiring hospitalization is approximately the same as it was five years ago, ten years ago. Therefore, if we are having difficulties today, what must it have been really like in 1969 or 1968. I note for example that there were about 5, 600 acute care hospital beds in 1969, that

February 12, 1974 311 THRONE SPEECH (MR.

SCHREYER Cont'd) ..... has been increased to over 5, 800; that in terms of extended care, there are now 2, 230 extended care nursing home beds - there was no provision for that before at all, it was lumped in under acute care - that in terms of taking the totality of acute hospitals that there is an increase of 274 beds; that in terms of nursing home care facilities there has been an increase - and I pause so that this number can sink in to my honourable friends opposite, into their subconscious if they will not accept it openly - an increase of 2, lO O beds, facility beds in the past four years; and that taking it in its aggregate, an increase of 2, 42 8 beds both acute care and nursing homes for personal care.

Mr. Speaker, and that is not to mention the increased efforts that are being made with respect to home care which four years ago was just an insipient nucleus program which is now being increased, more than doubled, much more than doubled, and brought to people re quiring it, people that could benefit from it in rural parts of the province, which prior to 1970 was completely non-existent in rural Manitoba. When one considers the fact as well under elderly persons' housing, elderly persons' hostel accommodation and the like, the figures are approximately as follows, Mr.

Speaker: At the end of December, 1969, 3, 000 elderly persons' accommodation units, whether under the EPH Program or under MHRC, 3, 000; in 19 71, 4, 500; in 1973, 6, 000, We intend to keep that pace of increase going into the foreseeable future. Well, Mr.

Speaker, let no one pretend such ignorance that they would try to deny this fact, that in terms of the care and treatment of elderly citizens there is an unseparable, un broken spectrum of Care Services that are required, ranging all the way from housing accommodation units which make it possible for people who are no longer quite able to manage in their own residences to be able to manage if they have comfortable, warm accommodation in a building in which there ar·e others of their age, able to give them a bit of a helping hand from time to time.

From there it goes to light personal care, medium, to heavy extended care, and from that on to acute care and then obviously for extended treatment bed facilities. It runs a spectrum. And in terms of looking at the over-all picture, at the over-all spectrum, this government has proceeded to commit far more funds and attention towards the putting into place, towards the building of elderly persons' housing and health care facilities taken together.

If my honourable friends want to pretend that there' s a problem now, then the problem must surely have been more acute in those days or else somebody is playing games, because I repeat - and I don't apologize for repeating - the fact that in 1969 the total quantity of acute hospital and personal care facility beds in this province was in the order of 11, 000.

Today it is approaching 14, 000 and that is not counting home care services which were not provided then at any significance: .. certainly they had made no provision then either for detoxification centres or sub-acute detoxification facilities or for chemical withdrawal centre facility beds and the like, and there have been some 170 of those put into place as well. So, Mr.

Speaker, if they don't want to make that kind of invidious comparison with 1969, well then I would invite them to make a comparison with other provinces ac:ross Canada today in terms of the ratio of hospital beds, whether it's acute, rehab, nursing home or whatever, per 1, 000 population: Manitoba, British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, across the country. We do not stand in any way that is out of line with the national average picture and substantially better in terms of facilities available per 1, 000 population of elderly people, people requiring extended treatment care, than five years ago.

So they had better back away from trying to create false impressions in that respect. And of course, as I have mentioned already, in terms of elderly persons' housing there is no comparison. We have more than doubled, we've more than doubled in four years what they managed to do in 11 years and more, so I don't know that particular points they will be wanting to make in that respect. Mr. Speaker, there is so much than can be said in terms of responding to the various criticisms that have been made in this Throne Speech Debate.

I realize that some of the criticism has been well motivated enough, constructive in what it's attempting to do, perhaps redirect government attention and priorities, but so much that has been said has been said as from the mouths of those who can be only diagnosed as suffering, as I said last night, from amnesia; they who would have the gali to talk about an inadequacy of disclosure procedures by this government; and I don't propose to repeat what I said last night insofar as practice is concerned of disclosure of MDC Annual Reports and reports with respect to all loans outstanding.

312 February 12, 1974 THRONE SPEECH (MR. SCHREYER Cont'd) .•..• I don't know what year they passed the Act but it was

an Act which certainly made it possible to practice complete secrecy. And they repeated in this House in the mid 1960's that they had no intention of discussing individual loan accounts; they would not bring them to any committee of this House; they would not answer any questions thereon; and they pleaded that this would be disruptive. and damaging to the province's economic development efforts. And I say to the members opposite that whatever they provided for in the Act since 1969 we have by practice -- correction -- since 1970, we have. by practice provided far, far more disclosure than they ever did.

They talk about disclosure relative to adminis trative procedures. I merely ask them to look each year at the Ombudsman's Report and that will remind them that we are practicing and are willing to practice more disclosure than they ever were prepared to do. And so the list can go on. To those who say, on the other hand, that not only do we not disclose, which is nonsense when you compare it to the past practice of the previous government, but that this Throne Speech was somehow evidence of a do-nothing attitude, then in conclusion, Mr. Speaker, or ii!

summary, I simply point out that Throne Speeches by defiJ;�ition, or by common sense actually, cannot be inclusive of every course of action that government has under way or is about to put under way. It is intended merely to summarize the highlights of those things recently underway or about to be brought under way, and to leave the rest to further elaboration and debate in this Assembly. Well, Mr. Speaker, if it's a do-nothing government)they are trying to attach a label on us as a do-nothing government, then I can only point out the obvious, that everything in this world is relative. "E" equals M. C. squared.

I mean relativity applies to pOlitics as well as to science, and _perhaps measured in terms of some ideal then we are relatively do1ng not enough; measured in terms of their old wild imagination and their own merciful amnesia and forgetfulne!)s, maybe we are not doing enough. But measured in terms of what they had cared enough to do and actually done, then the past four years - and we go on into the next four years, at a pace of desire and a pace of preparation and a pace of implement ation that far exceeds that which they were able to accomplish, and so that• s the difference, Mr. Speaker.

So in closing, I want to reassure honourable members opposite that if they think that they will gain any credibility by attacking this government on the basis of it not acting quickly enough and on a broad enough field of endeavour, then they will fail, because I believe that the public have a pretty good appreciation of the relative speed of performance, past and present. . . . continued on next page

February 12, 1974 313 THRO N E SPEE CH MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR (Virden): Mr.

Speaker, first I would like to congratulate you on your re- election to that high offic e, and certainly to all members who have been elected and retur ned, especially to the new members as I look around and compare the new face to the face that was there before, and probably the one that comes to me quickes t is the Honourable Member from Rup ertsland because his predecess or I sat beside all my years on the govern ment side, and if he fulfills his position as well as that honourable gentleman, and any success I have here I think I owe it to that honourable member who guided me in his somewhat independ ent way, but certainly knew his constituents and served them.

Then I would like to mention and pay tribute to some of the civil servants also that have made my role a little bit easier , and I can think of Mr. Hiebert within the Department of Labour and the Compensation Board , how many trips he' s made into my constituency, he' s sat down with a particular problem, and he didn't do it on behalf of the department--he was on neither side-- and I see by the Throne Speech there's going to be some modernization of that , and I have honestly felt that Act is a pretty open-ended one and one can almost get anything out of it but apparently it' s going to be still more improved .

The other one or two people that will be slightly in the federal field but I believe were people that were established to cover the members' position - I'm thinking now of that trouble some department of Unemployment Insurance. When I first was a member it was guided out of Winnipeg, run out of Winnipeg-- pardon me , it was run out of Brandon, and then this govern ment with its drastic changing, it came to the computer stage and it was moved to Winnipeg and there was a year of real problems.

And then I name a pers on whom I'v e never seen, a Miss Howie, became responsible for members of this Chamber and did a most effective job. You only had to phone that office, she had that file before you stopped talking. Even if you were a short talker like me, she had the file and knew the answers that come. Well again, government never leaves this alone; they meddle around with it and it's back in Brandon now; and there is still another name that looks to be as effective and as capable in her position , is a Miss or Mrs .

Munroe , and I jus t say to those people they have made my job jus t a tremendous lot easier. In rebutting some with the Premier that we were sitting on our fannies over there , well I do grant you, Mr. Speaker, I sat on my fanny over there an awful lot of the time, but the party that I was with I don't say really that they did because we only have to look at Br andon University, Assiniboine College , F-rontier College, senior citizens' homes, it was a new program , and certainly we didn't do as much as they do but we didn't charge as much taxes either and don't forget that.

Red River College-- The Red River College that we knew in our day was MIT; the park system; Bir d's Hill Park established ... the Touris t Department; and certainly the establi shment of a new system we know as vocational training. And that really is a lot more than nothing, I feel. I'm trying to be a reasonable, fair indiv idual, give credit , but I also like to have credit if I think we are right.

The other area, and I have spoken to some of the government side on this, that I feel like my Honourable Member from Pembina that this grant system that you ju st can't keep up with, whether it' s 90 or 900 new programs coming out in different areas-- have we gone too far? And in following somewhat the words, I believe the Honourable Member from Churchill said maybe we should slow down a little bit and let the programs catch up to the people, and I believe that to be true.

While this year in the PE P grant alone there was applications, I believe, .for three and a half million; there was only one million allocated, and if I was in the Finance chair I think I would think of honouring all those this year, getting everybody equality, but also warning those communit ies that ther e will be none next year or for the next two years, and let those communities become again self-govern ed , dependent on their own initiati ve, and I think possibly people are now to the stage they think they need money.

They want some thing but they want the government to do it first, and while it's very unpopular to say that , I really think that we have to face that. And you know, as you look at the PE P programs, you can compare-- I'll make an incident of one, a particular buyers ' association that had $2 , 250 for clerical help; or I can compare one in my own area, the Elkhorn Automobile Museum, that last year asked for a grant , was honoured $4 , 000. 00. They were not able to raise fifteen or twenty thousand dollars; they turned it back on a verbal understanding it would be rei ssued when they got the money.

Well, you know how it will work. You know the answer. They got

31 4 February 12, 197 4 THRONE SPEECH (MR. McGR EGOR cont'd) .... the money for the building and the PEP grant was just no , noc, no. But I do appreciate c the Minister of Municipal Affairs. We have sat down on this partic ular one and there may be room and there may be something coming. But those are the kind of comparisons.

Or the other one we co uld look at - now that' s local initiative - I'm sure you know it all - of the lady in Vancouver who applied for the $33, 700 for a common, a floating brothel, a tra velling brothel , and it wouldn't surprise me - this is federal - it wouldn't surprise me a bit if Ottawa approved that. And these are the kind of things that I think should be governed. While I can't nail the Minister on it I know there are people within the Brandon areac that sit on the board that does the original judging on it. But the one area , tour ism.

And again this Elkhorn Museum--I'v e travelled to a few museums south of the border , I'v e seen bigger one� but I haven't seen more clean up-to-date ones, that is the cars working, shined, and things of tourist museilm. It's fine for Man and Nature. Literally all our tax dollar s put it in there, but if we do something out in Virden, be it a little local museum, the auto museum, we have to dig an awful lot of that money out of our own, and I just don't think and I'm not necessarily fighting Winnipeg but I think the balance is not quite what it co uld be for a better Manitoba.

I probably could-- well you've heard this thirteen times , some of the members, the report of what my constituency is, what success is going on, what progress, and I would have to say in the last co uple of years the Oo-za .,-we-kwun at Rivers, the former Rivers air base� It' s been the one that's caused the most trouble. And it does look very encouraging. There is three firm businesses in there. Most of the members have toured it at some time. And the otherc area, of course, is the concern, a little different than most co nstituencies is the oil output there.

While Virden is in the dead centre, it' s co nsidered the centre, and I remember some years ago when I carried some cheese in and 57 or 60 bottles of oil, that was out of the fiftieth millionth barrel. Well , last October 4th we pass ed' the hundred millionth barrel, and I suppose that says to the new members that I must have been around here just for a few months at least, and one migh t want to know how many oil wells are pumping. Well I think, and I just phoned, and it's somewhere in the order of 670. Daily production is roughly 14 ,0 00 and one might say well , where does the oil go ?

Well, some 7, 200 goes to St. Paul, 2, 100 to Ontario and the rest is--what do you call it ?--re fined in Manitoba. Another point that is of real grave concern to that general area that is my constituency is rail line abandonment, and if the pages would come along and just give this to some of the members.

There's a red dot on it showing that I'm probably in the rather unique position within my constituency, cl have three branch lines with a dead end and mainly because the Assi niboine lies just immediately west of them, west of those dead ends� c And to the Minister of Highw ays, I wish he was in his chair because there's got to be a program come out of this. I asked a question the other day and what I was trying to say, at Wintertime you could have three times the weight that their license covers and the truck would pull it easier than it would in the summertime. The ro ad would have no damage.

He gave me a very evasive answer , and I would say if the rail lines are abandoned that type of program should be encour aged where heavy trucks could pull over some of the rather ordinary roads in the wintertime with no damage to that road and then still be able to leave our elevators in the areas that they are, if indeed-- and I hope the Minister and the present administration would do every thing to prove the need for these branch lines.

I think if they looked to our nation to the south they will see where some of these branch lines now very regrettingly have been pulled out , because I know the highway traffic cannot co ver and move the kind of grain that is needed in times like this when the demand is great.

I suppose we have seen and I remember when I was on government side often the premier, the then premier, would throw out a trial balloon to see the pulse, and when I read a few weeks ago and I'v e been accused that I'v e raised my wages already, but as I say, I never did raise my wages if it came up and it has come up three times since I'v e been a member, and I'll be honest and honourable, I voted for that raise each and every time of those three times because I think I can spend my money within my constituency a hell of a lot better than the treasury for that kind of money, and I did it in this way, and I did it this way .

When I became a member of the curling clubs and all the other societies, I said, I can't give a

February 12, 1974 315 THRONE SPEECH (MR. McGR EGOR cont'd) .... donation every year. I split my constituents, Assiniboine, and we got a raise - I split--went right across the constituency, got another raise. I opened up all the fair boards and I gave them, and that was the three raises. And if another raise is coming , and I think it can be done, I sat in front of a committee established by real firm gentle men of this province, the late Bill Parker - and Mr. Speaker, who was a tough,..fisted, tighter pe nny-pinchinger fellow than he?

To Steve Peterson who was a former member of this legis lature , I believe sat in one of those two seats. He quit this Chamber, main ly why? Finance was one of the major reasons. The other chap on that panel was Mr. Schneider , well- established, and I think if the honourable member from Public Works was here, the honourable member from Pe mbina is, as three of us were there on that morning and I said to them I didn't give a continental damn if they raised my wages or if they lowered it - my work would only be guided by the amount of money I 'was getting.

And regarding our pe nsion pl an, you know the ratio out there is we pay in six perc ent and receive back three. I would buy and could sell it and I'm sure my constituents would not begrudge of an 8 and 4 ratio.

Pa y in more and basic back more, and I think you've got some thing I would stand for anybody, and if it's appr<;>ached in the proper manner , a committee is set up, I could tell that committee as I told that committee - they recommend something, I'll support what they recommend if it's a committee that I respe ct regardless, I'm not sure it should be from this Chamber, but a committee outside of this Chamber does that and then if the First Min ister listens to that, I see nothing wrong in it. I can imagine what Pe ter Warren will do with that statement tomorrow morning. Howe ver, it's said.

And that probably brings in another subject. In speaking to the civil servants the other morning , when I was on Peter Warren, I did it from this building and apparently my keen telephone people out in western Manitoba heard it and it came over rattling; well , they rattled the phones to find out where in hell I'd phoned from and when they found out I phoned from here well they were quite at ease. Whether that was because I formerly was a telephone critic or not I don't know. I give them credit for being just very keen , aggressive civil servants.

Yes, and Peter very nicely tried to cut me off but I think I got my digs in before that happened. Well and to somewhat follow up , my honourable colleague from Arthur was questioning the Minis ter of the Outlook Conference in Brandon yesterday, and I'm not one, and I get hell from my House Leader because I don't ferociously attack anybody. I believe in producing rather than do that. I am sent here, I think, to produce but there are times when a Minis ter does get me up a little tight. My Honourable Min ister of Agriculture was at Brandon yesterday and it's liis po sition and pri vilege to advise people.

They were there , the farmers were there to find out just what the outcome is; they call it many names over all the years; and yet my Mi nister got extremely political. He attacked everybody that ever said a word against him. I guess I hadn't said a word against him because I don't believe he named me, and I don't think that this was becoming the Mi nister , that it was becomin g his position as the Minis ter or a representative of his department. I think there are pl aces a Mi nister can sell his political philosophy but not at a meeting advertised as that was.

I think it was an absolute insult to agriculture people and brought disgrace to the whole department. You know, as we stand here we think we are the all gods, or they do , and we thought when we were over there we were just about that, and yet you've got to look back to some things in history.

I think of the 1914 war, Britain stood alone , the 1918 war with a little help from the Commonwe alth stood reasonably alone , and we watched that situation over there where they were just digging out of the economic jam they got in through the war, and the Prime Mi nister stands alone and I think this nation and the whole world is looking at him. If I was a betting guy and had a few bucks, I know how I'd bet and I think that would be one bet I'd be pretty sure of winning --(Interjection)-- I would bet that he'll win the election this man, my honourable collea gue from Portage, yes.

And my honourable colleague , and I should refer to the trip up to the Trappers Festival at The Pas some years ago when he referred to me and the Member from Bi rtle-Russell, and I do remember getting onto that train and the first thing, we challenged one another to a squaw wrestle in the dining room and we upset three or four tables and a few other hilarious things that happened, and I wish I had the time to go back to The Pa s. Another thing this government done and I really think done reasonably well, when they discarded the advertising agencies that went down east to a particular Conservative double-

316 F ebruary 12, 1974 THRONE SPEECH (MR. McGREGOR cont'd) . . crosser and brought it within the Manitoba scope, whoever that advertising agency is, and I say that was right. The only thing they then went--I don't think I rattled you gentlemen; would you please dry up. But they did; to that point they were right, I think.

Then they decided they'd weed out all the weekly papers, and believe me, it is the weekly papers that advertise a rural member to a large extent; full credit to the news media but the local weekly papers do that little ordinary thing, and I think that there should be recons ideration of that particular approach. While they're not union shop, they're one and two and three member companies and why should they not have the share of the business, say, that I represent equally ? And I think that that' s only reasonable and right.

The other thing that I would like to mention is the hours we spend here, and it always struck me rather funny, when most people are going home, we're coming to work., And then I refer to speed-up. We had speed-up when we were government but I do not remember heavy bills being laid on our desks after speed-up. Now, we know where we went with 'the Highway Traffic Act. I think it was 1970, a rather major change in it. We sat to two or three o'cl ock in the morning.

My former minister had promised to be in the gallery when I'd lay this on, then he went around the country saying that we weren't alert and how can you possibly look at

an Act as big as that and come up right. What about 1972 ? The Farm Machinery Act came in, speed-up thirty seven or thirty nine amendments. Even the most learned lawyer couldn't really tell how that Act was comin g out after that. The last thing, again in 19 72, the Mineral Acres Tax - we were still, I don't think we were working to the daylight but we were in speed-u p when that was going through, and I would like to, you know, read into the record a couple of letters and if you think I haven't got some work, my friends, I'l l just show you what this Mineral Acres Tax has caused me.

If I leave this House for two weeks and go to Mexico, it's only because I want clearly to think and answer these letters. Someone said - but I'l l read and I had permission from these owners' to read this one or two letters into the book and these are not particularly complimentary to me as the first line would indicate. "As a rule when I write you it is to show my dis satisfaction about something. This time I want to co ngratulate you on the letter you sent to members of the government regarding the imposition of the tax on mineral rights in the province.

In my opinion this is the rottenest, dirtiest, most insidious tax that has been imposed on any people in modern times. I cannot see how it would be possi ble for the province to make enough money out of the tax to pay for all the searching of Titles and all the work of setting up the system. The only reason I can see for such an action would be to endeavour to have practically all rights to mines and minerals revert to the Crown which, of cOur se, will take place, if not immediately, eventually.

" And this is rather a snarly couple of lines but I might as well read it all: "We frequently hear the NDP government referred to as Communists, but this is the mo st communistic legislation they have enacted. J. H. Peter Young. P. S. I have already written to the Premier regarding this and only hope he gets to read my letter." Well in talking to Mr. Young this morning, the Pr emier--I know he's been busy, and I do say I appreciate that thirty days, but-- and I would like to put this on the record, his letter.

I want to read it into the record, yes, And if this isn't the kiss of death, this is a small . . from an editorial in the Free Press - I won't read it all - and this is regarding the retired farmer and all the quote s that we thought it was individuals and now it's--" and it is time the governm:ent solved this particular problem created by its own bureaucrats. It should not be too difficult to define farmer, if not in liberal terms, at least in terms of social democratic justice. " So in clo sing I just would say there's three things very necessary. One, Mr.

Speaker, is to allow that Act to be opened up to let us clean up that, get inequities out of it and get it so tha neople of Manitoba will appreciate it. And if that isn't possible, then let's not hi;re people--please God, Mr. Speaker, don't hire any more, we've got enough uneducated, un understanding ci vil servants roaming our province now. Send someone that knows the Act, understands the complic ations of the Act and sit out in the Virden area, because the phone calls are com ing into that Zenith number and, so help me God, the Minister said I didn't know anything about the Act.

Well, I think he should put me on that phone and I grant you I don't know everything about the Act but, I grant you, I can answer those questions more intelligently than the people on that ?:enith number that was advertised in all the rural papers. And thirdly,

February 12, 1974 317 TiffiONE SPEECH (MR. McGREGOR cont'd) .. .. if failing all that, then I think the Minister owes a courtesy to Manitoba and should resign. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR . MILLER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I would start off with what is customary - to congratulate you on your re-appointment, the selection as Speaker of this House. I trust that your years as Speaker will be perhaps less tempestuous than in years gone by.

I would hope so certainly, because an election was held a few months ago and although some members don't quite recognize it, the results of those elections are in and that it will be some time before a new election takes place. So and--someone asked who won. I think everyone knows who won and I think how you decide who won, despite all the talk, is who's on this side of the House and who's on that side of the House. In the final analysis that' s what it amounts to. Mr. Speaker--and I believe the Member for Sturgeon Creek should get credit for that comment; I'm paraphrasing him if not directly quoting him.

I didn't kno.v he was in the House, otherwise I'd have given him credit immediately. Mr. Speaker, I wasn't sure whether I was participating in this debate. I know some of my colleagues are very anxious to participate in the debate and certainly I've always felt that in Throne Speech debate new members in particular should be given first priority and I've been pleased to hear when I was present some of the members and others. I'v e read their speeches.

I want to congratulate them on their contributions and I join with others in agreeing that they have certainly brought a good level of debate into this House, and I hope that the cynicism which some develop over years is somewhat slow in coming to them and they retain the freshness, the vigor and the enthusiasm that they displayed in their first comments. Mr.

Speaker, what motivated me to get into the debate is the barrage of questions which have come forward in the last week or ten days, because in this House in the past week, both in the House and in some of the media carrying stories - and I don't fault the reporters for this; they are simply reporting that somebody said these things to them - we' ve witnessed attempts by the Leader of the Opposition, the Leader of the Liberal Party in particular, to create an atmosphere of hysteria, using grand, eloquent terms such as "crisis " and " irre sponsible" to describe the current situation in Winnipeg in regard to hospital and nursing home beds.

Now I'd like to say to this House and to the public of Manitoba that the honourable leaders are trying to play on anxieties which people have in regard to health care facilities. These are natural anxieties. When someone in your family is involved, naturally one is anxious. I would like, however, to set the matter in a rational context without the hyperbole and with out the hysteria that is taking place. And as a matter of fact, perhaps the hysteria has passed because I saw in the paper yesterday, February 11th, Winnipeg Free Press , a head line, "Health Care not in Jeopardy, Quaglia Claims. " Mr.

Quaglia is the President of the Manitoba Health Organization and he laid it pretty clearly on the line and the headline indicates exactly how the situation is. So, despite what the leaders may say, health care is not in jeopardy. Mr. Speaker, therefore I welcome this opportunity to speak to this House on health policy in Manitoba , and the thrust of the policy of this government in health care is a balanced health policy for Manitoba.

I want to indicate that any rational health policy in Ca nada today requires a careful, well- reasoned and a flexible, systematic approach to planning, a responsible and responsive approach to implementation of that policy. You know, balance is not just a word or a slogan. It means in this context care and attention being paid to proportionality and development of facilities and programs for all levels of health care needs. Mr. Speaker, in order to understand the present, sometimes one has to look back into history and certainly it's necessary in order to project what one may look forward to getting into.

Back in 1958 the Federal Government passed the Hospital Insurances and Diagnostic Services Act. That established the federal-provincial cost-sharing for certain provincial hospital pro grams. Manitoba at the same time introduced its hospital insurance plan. And what happened in Manitoba subsequent to this was a reflection of what happened across Canada, a rapid increase in hospital construction in every province because federal funds were avail able for hospital services only.

By the time Medicare was introduced in Manitoba in 196 9, again a program cost-shared with the Federal Government, the concern across Canada in regard to excessive emphasis on hospital care was becoming significant, and in 1969 it was,

318 February 12, 1974 TlffiONE SPEEC H (MR. MILLER cont'd) .... the federal-pro vincial governments set up task forces to review the health service planning in Canada and to bring to the attention of all governments the very real concern over costs of health services. And I'd like to quote from the Introduction to the Task Force' s Report of 1969 in this regard. "The co st of health services," the Tas k Force reported, "The cost of health services has ris en so rapidly in Canada in recent years that three alternatives are now imminent.

The standards of health care now available can be reduced, or. taxes, premiums or deterrent fees can be raised even higher, or ways must be found to restrain the growth of cos t increases through better operation of health service structure now in existence and serious consi deration must be given to a future major revamping of the entire system. " Mr. Speaker, since then health planning in Canada has been undergoing very considerable critical analysis and proposals for reform from all quarters.

In 1971 the Government of Canada began -- yes .in 197 1, and it was the Federal Government, expressed their intent to alter the present and existing cost- sharing mechanism for hospital and medical care through a formula which would limit the federal portion of the rapidly rising costs. The Federal Govern ment has consi stently, has consi stently presented to the provinces their intention to change the co st- sharing formula, and if they do, Mr. Speaker , if they do succeed , it will be at a great cost to the provinc ial treasury and the provincial taxpayer.

Now so far the provinces have rejectad the formula as presented to date, and we are fortunate that all provinces were clear on that and were united. But it is also clear that Ottawa is pursuing their position of intending to place a limit, a cap, a ceiling on federal participation. And, Mr. Speaker, given the experience of hospital and medical costs in recent years, given what appear to be the inexorable trends in such costs, Mr. Speaker, Manitobans will be paying a growing proportion of a rapidly escalating cos t for these services in the years ahead. So, Mr.

Speaker, it is with this knowledge that I suggest to this House that hysteria will not do as a substitute for rational formulation of policy in health care. Eighteen months ago the Government of Manitoba tabled its White Pa per on health policy in this House. I was assoc iated with that document and the preparation of it. I reviewed policy documents from all parts of Canada and from the United States and even from Europe, and it became very cl ear that health care policy is a complex, difficult and, it has been proven in the last few days, a frequently tempestuous area.

Equally it became clear to me that as a res ponsible government we have to find ways of making the most effective use of our health care dollars for presently insured services , and to provide coverage for other health care programs to assis t individual Manitobans in achieving better access to and better a:vailability of health care. Mr. Speaker, the White Paper indicated that it is essential to develop within our system of services incentives to use scarce resources efficiently, to find less cos tly rather than more expensive ways of doing things equally well. The White Paper in essence, Mr.

Speaker, pro posed the evolutionary development of integration of health care facilities and programs to serve the people of the province. Now we're not unique in this, Mr. Speaker. Studies and reports from other provinces and from the Federal Government since then carry essentially the same message. And what is that mes sage from other jurisdictions ? Ov er-development of one aspect of health care services leads to a distortion of a total health care system.

The Rock Robertson Report - and that' s a very recent one - prepared by the former Dean of McGill University Medical School for the Science Co uncil of Canada, developed the same theme, and I'd like to quote a key comment from that report. Dr . Robertson said as follows: "Hospital overloadi ng is the key symptom of an organizational disease. It can only be relieved by the provision of co-ordin ated diagnostic ambulatory and continuing care facilities.

" In other provinces in Canada health department representatives and various commissions have been produc ing an approach to health care planning which stresses the need for co- ordination and integration of all levels of health facilities with the major new emphasis on services to help people remain well (that' s preventati ve), to function as independently as possible, and to remain out of institutions, not in institutions.

Studies by federal-provincial committees and provincial working groups including both governmental people and providers of health care, are increasingly stressing the importance of prevention, and helping services outside of the institutions as the key to a balanced health system. Mr. Speaker, over the last three years Manitoba has been striving to attain equity,

February 12, 197 4 319 THRONE SPEECH (MR. MILLER cont'd ) . something that was lacking, equity and a greater balance to its health care system. Now part of this involves the removal of the inequitable premium for Medicare so that our health system is funded on a progressive ability-to-pay basis. We also extended the provincial health plan to cover personal care homes in order to allow people in their advanced years the dignity of the use of nursing homes without stripping them of their life savings. We extended Pharmacare coverage for prescription drugs for the elderly to ease some of the burden of that cost.

We are extending home care services to assi st people in order to prevent further decline in their ability to maintain independence in their own homes where they now reside. Mr. Speaker, since 1969 there has been an increase in all levels of institutional beds. An example: for Winnipeg there' s been an increase in acute care beds of 9. 3 percent since 1969; extended treatment an increase of 14. 2 percent; in personal care beds an increase of 74. 9 per cent sinc e '69.

And I'm also going to introduce a figure which normally isn't used in the context of care and that is the elderly person housing and the units of approximately 1, 500 - I think it represents a figure of about 265 percent since 1969.

But the elderly persons' housing is an important component of helping people to re main independent and to stay out of institutions, and I am proud that this government moved as rapidly as it did into this field and will continue to move , because elderly persons' housing makes it possibl e for people who migh t otherwise have to end up in institutions to continue to live act ive, useful, fruitful lives instead of being institutionalized. Now the figures I quoted earlier, Mr. Speaker, do not include the 200 beds extended treatment unit at St.

Boniface Hospital, which was expected to be completed I believe in Oct ober 197 3 but apparently has been delayed in construc tion, and that is to replace the 129 beds at the St. Vital Hospital. As well, there is the new Concordia Hospital which is under construction. I'm not sure of the exact date of the opening; it's supposed to be mid-1974 but my experience in construc tion is "never predict opening dates" because you're usually wrong. Concordia Hospital will increase the capacity of our institutions, health facilities, with an increase of 43 acute beds and 20 extended care beds.

In 1969 that ratio of personal care beds per 1, 000 in Winnipeg was 4. 38 per thousand. In 197 3 that ratio has risen to 6. 95 per thousand in Winnipeg. Mr. Speaker, I want to make this clear and I'v e said it before but reiterate it. Government staff are carry ing on studies of di stribution and the supply of health facilities across the pro vince as well as an analysis of waiting lists, handling procedures for admissions to nursing homes.

There are people on the waiting lists of nursing homes who have applied for admission in anticipation of requiring such care, and some of them have even applied one or two years in advance. They're anticipating that they will have to go into a nursing home one or two years from now, and they too are on the waiting list. And there is - I don't deny - there is a waiting list of people in acute care hospitals waiting for nursing home admissions. But it would appear although this is higher this year, it is not that much higher than waiting lists two or three years ago. You know, it' s of interest, Mr.

Speaker, that this phenomenon which seems to suddenly arise is really not a new phenomenon, because a study of the Winnipeg General Hospital which was published in the Canadian Medical Journal in 197 1, estimated that up to 30 perc ent of the patients at that time-- and maybe if it was published in 1971 it may have been the 19 70 statistic s, I don't know how that works--but it was estimated up to 30 percent of the patients then in the hospital co uld have been in some other kind of facility, back in their own home or perhaps in a nursing home. Now again Manitoba is not unique and it is not an island unto itself.

Other provinces such as Ontario to the east of us have experienced proportionately much larger increases in waiting lists at a time when they were actually cutting acute beds by approximately 1, 200 across the province. The Ontario experience has been that the demand levels, the demand levels and the panic responses proved not to be necessary. They resisted the pressure - and there was pressure - to initiate a massive building program, and had they done so it would have resulted in ov erproduction and uncontrolled spiralling of cos ts. They resisted that and I give them credit for it , and I strongly believe, Mr.

Speaker, that we should learn and we should profit from the experience of others, and I don't care whether that province happens to have a New Democratic Go vernment, a Liberal Government, a Cons ervative Government or a Social Credit Government, I am prepared to profit, and I think others should as well, to profit and learn

320 February 12, 1974 THRONE SPEEC H (MR. MILLER cont'd) .... from the experience els ewhere. So therefore while I expect the waiting li sts, Mr. Speaker, to lev el off somewhat, and these waiting lists of course fluctuate with the season of the year; as I expect the waiting list to level off, there will always be a number waiting for placement, certainly.

But in the course of the last ten days there has been some expression of concern about these lists and the number waiting to get out of hospital and so on; the hospital administrators themselves have indicated that it is normal to have an increase in the use of emergency wards at this time of year, and they've said it in a number of news clippings and the latest one, as I say, indicated -it was yesterday -according to Mr. Quaglia as the Pre sident of the Manitoba Organization on behalf of all the administrators.

And so they'v e indicated it's normal to have an increase in the use of emergency wards at this time of year. And since those who have been crying the loudest in the past week have obviously not bothered to look at figures from past years, perhaps I'd like to have the privilege of refreshing their memories. The Hunt Commission in 197 1 made a study at random selected dates in different months over a number of years . I'm not going to go into all of them; it's in the Hunt Commission Report. Here are some of the figures for waiting lists for over the past years at Winnipeg hospitals.

Date unknown, but a date in December 1966, it goes back a few years -waiting list 3, 926. Another day in the month of March 1968 , waiting list reported by the hospitals, 4559; 1969, this date was identified in the report, January 6th, 3, 527. Another date, January 1970, and I picked this one because it's New Year's Day, and you wouldn't think anybody would want to stay in the hospital if they could pos sibley avoid it on that day -January 1, 1970, 3, 953. Now I don't want to belabour the point, Mr.

Speaker,· but since the Honour able Leaders of the Opposition Parties have chosen to ignore the facts and have resorted to scare tactics by playing on peopl e' s anxiety, I feel I have a responsibility to further clarify the current situation. No one to my knowledge, with the exception of a couple of very astute reporters has even bothered to look more closely at the situation. It must be appreciated that most hospitals admit patients in order of a priority, they always have and it's based on the category into which patients fall.

Therefore emergency admissions have the highese priority and occur when there is immediate danger to life. Urgent admissions, urgent admissions occur when prolonged delay ih admissions may result in emergencies. Ele ctive admissions have the lowest priority and are for surgery or for investigation which require admission but which may be delayed without danger to the patient. Mr. Speaker , the present _issues are really part of a much larger issue. The issues are the containment of health care costs and the search for alternatives at a reasonable cost.

We in this province are presently spending about $1 40 million on hospital care. Now hospital costs incidentally have doubled in the previous five years and projections, if we simply project the normal growth as followed in the past, would indicate it doubling again in five years. Now no pro\•ince, no province can afford to view this kind of rapid escalation without alarm, and every province in Canada is alarmed at this, and that is why other provinces, such as Ontario have imposed ceilings on a hospital budget.

Last year of about six percent; this year a 7. 9 percent; and they'v e also began to cut back on some of their hospital construction. In this province, Mr. Speaker, therefore when we look .at what the situation here, the Health Services Commission approves an 8 percent increase for hospitals, and the reaction, mind you, doesn't surprise me; the reaction to this kind of announcement by the Commission, or this kind of notification by the Commission to the various hospitals. The reaction of the hospitals to this kind of cost to restraint is not new nor is it surprising. Mr.

Speaker, when I say it's not new, I find it interesting because I have a clipping here and it refers to the Manitoba Hospital Commission which has indicated that it is not prepared to go along with the hospital budget, has indicated that they are going to put a limitation on the budget increases, and the headline on this one reads: "Hospitals predict cut in services. " And I have another one here and it also deals with the reaction of the hospitals, Winnipeg hospitals some of them, and the headline here is: "Hospital service cut predicted. " So they've just changed the words.

Instead of "Hospitals predict cut in services, " they say "Hospital service cut predicted. " Both written by a gentleman, Mr. Manfred Jaeger. The only difference is, Mr. Speaker, that the one on my right is 1974 and the one on my left is December 1966. So, Mr. Speaker, to those who are suggesting that this is something new and just come up, this is an annual problem, the hospitals do want an increase, I don't doubt that, just as illl the . . . want increases and the

February 12, 19 74 321 THRONE SPEECH (MR. MILLER cont'd ) .... Health Services Commission has a problem to try to contain the cost, to control the cost to try to make our facilities more efficient than they are. A clipping from the Globe and Mail: "Potter announces hospital expansion freeze and ceiling on increase of operating budgets. " Banner headline. November 24, 1972. Potter is the Minister of Health in On tario.

Another heac·line: "Hospital dilemma loomin g." And it deals again with what are the hospitals going to do because they've now been told they cannot get an increase of 20 percent or 18 percent , they're going to have to live with half that, and the tough choices that they're going to have to face, perhaps withdrawal of some--the term used "water down" the services. This one, January 18 , 1967 , Mr. Speaker: "Mr.

Speaker, the administration of hospitals and the physicians who provide care in the hospitals, they have a major responsibility to see to it that our present supply of hospital beds which is larger than most provinc es i

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-13
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 13.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	357e64c51054e9a87385b12ec313310bf9845999

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