PRELDUNARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, MARCH 25, 1977

March 25, 1977 Tape 1287 PK - 1 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: I guess it is a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. I want to call the House's attention to an error in this morning's edition -of The Daily News, and I do not know whether the error was The Dailv News' error or mine, because I have not seen the Hansard, but the quotation here is that I - --- - - --- -- - ·-- - - ·--- - - -· -- · MR. ROBERTS: As I can testifv even Hansard makes its slins. MR.

DOODY: - I earlier noted that Penitentiary wardens relinquished their ~ight to strike in favour of the pension plans sought by NAPE and the Newfoundland Constabulary gave up theirs in favour of compulsory arbitration. I do not know if I actually said that· ·:or not,as I have indicated, but it is incorrect~ ·The -Penitentiary wardens have not relinquished their right to strike, They do indeed have that right and I just want to set the record straight, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I wish to inform the House of Assembly with regards to the··regist:~:'~_ti~n _' o£ mator vehicles in the Province that because of the existing mail strike -~~ ~whi-clx -apparentlv l_ --- - . . - - ... - - b-as not . been resolved to date. - To date there have . been 119, 000 ----------. . ·,...- vehicles registered by the Registrar of Motor Vehicles. Last year at the end of March 31, a total of 139,000 vehicles were registered, -~~means right now that there are approximately 20,000 vehicles that are not registered throughout theProvince.

Most of these vehicles are from the remote and rural areas of the Province who are using the mails,we assume,to apply for their licences. So because of that, Mr. Speaker, we have now decided to grant an extension beyond March 31. So the deadline now for the registration of motor vehicles ~as of today will be April 7, Thursday before Good Friday. 35&3

March 25, 1977 Tape 1287 PK- 2 Mr. Morgan : So the deadline has-been ·change4 _from March 31 until Easter Thursday, April 7 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Holy Th~sdav. MR. MORGAN: Easter. Holy. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member from Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased that the minister has decided to grant the extension. Under normal circumstances I agree with the government's policy of not extending, but under those particular circumstances as we see~them now with the mail strike on here in St. John's, I think that all of the members of the House on this side are very pleased with the announcement. SOME HON.

M!MBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR •. T.A. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, hon. ·gentleman will recall that on Tuesday past, March 22, 1977 this hon. House passed the following motion, unanimously passed this following motion, 11 That this House asks the government of this Province at the earliest possible time to appoint a . c~mmissioo~r under the provisions of the Public Enquires ---- - -. ~ Act to inquire into the matter of the allegation that A.B.

Walsh Electrical Limited purchased and caused to be delivered to· the hon. ' the Premier a television set alleged to be worth in excess of $1,000 and to inquire whether the hon. Premier paid for such television set. And that such commissioner be a judge of the Supreme Court of Newfoundland,either the Court of Appeal or the Trial Divis.ion,or a District Court judge, and that such commissioner deliver his report in findings to this hon. House at the earliest possible date. 11 3584

March 25, 1977 Tape no. 1288 Page 1 .- HS Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce that the Honourable Robert Stafford Furlong, M.B.E., Chief Justice of Newfoundland,has consented to serve as the commissioner and that his appointment and the terms of reference and commission either have been signed or are in the process of being signed at this time. The terms of reference I will table, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER:The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker~ I cannot make any detailed comment, because I have not seen the terms . I mean they have just -been given to me.

Let me say simply that I am delighted the ministry have moved so very quickly on this matter, and that I am delighted that the Chief Justice has -accepted the government's invitation to carry out this commission, Sir. . TI~t~led comment will have to wait until I can read the commission. Thank you, Sir. MR.. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I rise ~n a point of personal privilege, ._ -ifbeing the first opportunity to do so, the information pertaining to the point of privilege just coming into my possesion during the last evening. The point of privilege, Mr.

Speaker, arises out of the debate by the Leader of the Opposition on an item which is rather popular those days, colour t~levisions. I \Wuld like to quote very briefly if I could, Sir, from Tape no. 1192, and I quote the Leader of' the Opposition as follows: "But now, Sir, if this were the only television set that A. B. i~alsh had given away, it would be in my view still a matter of comment, and I still think a matter of investigation. But, Sir, it is not the only one and that is the new fact. The A. B. Walsh firm if an extraordinary generous firm. Remember thev are not in the television business.

But I understand from usually reliable resources that within the past two or three years they have purchased between twenty and twenty-five television sets for gifts." I emphasize that ,.,ord, Hr. Speaker, for gifts. "Between twenty and twenty-five for gifts , a lot

Harch 25, 1977 Tape no. 1288 Page 2 - MS of television sets. I am told there were seven this past Christmas. Now maybe all were paid for. 11aybe they all went to ~rr. Walsh's employees or maybe Mr. Walsh's family, I do not know. I know where one of them went,to Mount Scio House. I know where another went. It was delivered to the first house on the left hand side of Forest Road up in Upper Gullies, and , I think took the· trouble, and Sir, one of my colleagues aided me to find out who lived in that house." Mr. Roberts continues: "No, it was not: a friend of the gentleman from Bonavista South nrr.

Morgan) , no I did not say that. It was not the gentleman from Bonavista South, not at all. .~d I will not name the person, although I will tell it to the committee of enquiry. But the person who lives in that house, I am told, is a very clo~e friend of the Minister of Tourism, a very close personal friend, a fact which is well-known." And at that point I attempted to clear the matter on a point of order, but I was ruled out of order. MR. ROBERTS:- No - . (Inaudible) . MR. MORGAN: Come on now, keep quiet. This is too serious. HR. TOURISH: I was ruled out of order, ~k.

Speaker, because there -was a point of order on the floor at the time. Tape 1193 continues: "Tile remarks I made;' the allegations;' that r made that a television set was delivered to a close friend of the Minister of Tourism.~ are out of order?, N~-~ Sir! Sir, I submit they are in order. The motion is exactly as I read it, as the Minister of Justice subsequently read it. And I submit it is quite in order to show that the firm specifically referred to in the motion is in the habit of delivering television sets -to---and I have named two people, I have named two.

The Minister of Tourism cannot deny it, because what I have said is true." Mr. Speaker, 3586

M.arc:h 25, 1977 Tape 1289 IB-1 ~fR. HICKEY: 11 The ~finister of Tourism cannot deny it... The Premier has admitted in his case it Ts~ true .1' And the third section, ~r. Speaker, tape 1197, wherein the Leader continues, "}~r. Speaker, the three facts are there. One, that the set was purchased by the Walsh firm and delivered to the Premier. That is a fact. Two, that 1j1at firm is not in the ~ ~ . ·---=-_,. __ business of buying and selling television sets.

The inference is there, Sir.'' I certainly agree with that. 11 It was~h.~~g~E. as a gift._.Pa~~i~larly given the fact that the firm bought at least twenty-five sets in the last two or three years, Eefevrsion··- and stereo set,· the expensive one, free!' I emphasize that word 'free', ~r. Speaker, in reference to the television and stereo set for it comes right after. To go on, to quote further, "The Walsh firm got a very, very large amount of business from the government." I quote . this section, Mr.

Speaker, because it is obvious that the point that is being made here is the association of this person outside this House, who lives in that. house in Upper Gullies,who is a close personal friend of mine,and my being a minister and that firm doing a lot of business with the government, it is very clear what the Leader of the Opposition was leading up to.

He was leading up to the fact that I had used my position in some way, indeed some hon. colleagues of his were known to have said to some of my colleagues, ·~en we are finished with the Premier, we are going after Hickey, lUckey's girlfriend." The hon. gentleman did not name the person. He was decent, ~r. Speaker, he did not name the person. He gave the description of her address to such a degree the only thing that is lacking is the manufacturer's brand of paint on the house • For everyone knows who . lives in that house now, everyone on the Conception Bay Shore knows, all of her neighbors know.

I suppose when a truck stops and a piece of furniture is dropped off now, someone will wonder is that a gift from Mr. Hickey. That is the point, Mr. Speaker, that I am concerned about and that is the point that I want to clear up. I told the Leader of the Opposition when he started on. this track that he was digging a hole to bury himself. That is too

~arch 25, 1977 Tape 1289 IB-2 ~.m. HICKEY: true. I now propose to show holi7 he has buried himself, ho~1 I will bury him now. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I would point out to the hon. gentleman the need to keep his remarks totally relevant to the point of privilege. MP:. HICKEY: I am doing my best, Mr. Speaker. It ~ is not a very easy matter to cover. I want to show, Mr.

Speaker, first and foremost, I want to say that I h~d no connec~ion whatsoever with the stereo·- television set that was delivered to Upper Gullies, nonel I do not supervise nor do I advise nor do I have anything at all to do with the purchase of furniture by friends of mine, -~-Mr number one. Fact number two, who my friends are is my bloody business and none of the Leader of the Opposit .ion 's. ,· SO¥.E RON. ¥EMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. HICKEY: Fact number two, Mr.

Speaker, the han. gentleman could have simply asked me a question~or any of the hen. gentlemen or his hon. colleague who went to such trouble to find out who lived in that house. It was quite obvious that someone suspected there was some association with me. I would have told him gladly. I am not ashamed that I know who lives in that house, not for one second. Mr. Speaker, most important of all, fact number three, I table a photostat of a cheque made out to A.B. Walsh Electric

Harch 25, 1977 Tape No. 1290 N'~1 - 1 MR. HICKEY: in the amount of $1,539.95, on a cheque to Eastern Canada Savings and Loans and signed by one E. Horgan. I will name her, because I have the courage to name her, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman did not. But he knew he \vas doing it through another means. That cheque, :-!r. Speaker, was signed and made out on the 8th. of January. There is a stamp on the front, Mr. Speaker, and the explanation that that stamp is affixed to that cheque \V"hen it goes through the clearing

section of Eastern Canda,which proves the funds were removed from that account and deposited to the account of Halsh. ~1R. NEARY: What year was it? ~fR. MORGlu'l : 1976 .it was·. MR. HICKEY: A little more than a year ago, not this past - Put it in the record, 1976. MR. HICKEY: Yes, 1976. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. MORGAN: ~candalous! Scandalous ! Slander! Innuendo! .. ... - . A.. "If RON: MEMBER: Go home. Go home. rm. MORGAN: Resign! Resign! MR., SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I know my hon. colleagues feel as I do,but I asked them to allow me to continue. !'-IR.

MORGAN: No,clown! ,Nc,clown~ ·-AN RON. ·MEMBER: You just show your ignorance. HR. HICKEY: I have a further photostat of the back of the cheque which I table, on which there~~~ StamPs,Mr. Speaker, one stamped by the company, which proves receipt of that cheque •. ... ···- · -- -~'"'- MR. ROBERTS: No. No. MR. PECKFm:.__ Listen. A.J.'l RON. ~1llliEER: A point of order, ~- fr. Speaker. 3589

~1arch 25, 1977 Tape No. 1290 ~fR.. SPEAKER : ·~ Order, please! I cannot entert.;lin a point of order,but I must direct han. members to my left and to my right not to interrupt,and if they have matters between themselves to discuss, or on which they have different opinions,then they will either have to do it in the House when there is an opportunity to debate~or in the corridor or in the cafeteria or somewhere like that. MR. HICKEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The other

section which is photostated, ~r. Speaker, shows a number of stamps and I wish to explain what they are because it is very difficult to see them. The original or the cheque itself could not be produced . because it is not ~hat type of account,and a photostat was all teat the lady could produce. The first stamp is obviously a stamp which is normally used for deposit . purpo~es. It is when a person do not sign, do not endorse a cheque, you just put your stamp on it and send it on to the bank. That is stamp number one. There is another stamp·, which is deposit to any branch of such a bank.

The second stamp is put on because the parties do not bother to endorse the cheque. So these are the two stamps .· As best as I can make them out January 30th., the cheque was issued on January 8th., it was stamped January 30th., at the bank and the funds came out of the account I believe on February 5th. I am not sure February 5th. or February 8th. MR. MORGAN: 1976. MR. HICKEY: 1976. Now, ~I. Speaker, in tabling this information there are a number of things that one could do ~n my particular 3590

March 25, 1977 Tape No. 1290 N}f - .:. 3 HR . RI CKEY: position at the moment. I do not wish to do very much, for I have grown accustomed to abuse and personal attack. Let me simply say, Mr. Speaker, that -- --·· I feel it incumbent upon the Leader of the Opposition to withdraw his comments and any inferences an4 innuendoes which in any associate: me with this whole issue, that is number one. I would ask him in a gentleman fas~ion to try to undo, try, because he will never undo the hurt, the harm and the damage done to this innocent lady..

I ask him as a gentleman if he would _be good enough, for her sake if not mine, to publicly apologize so that she may live in peace - --··--·· _, -.- ~- - . and rest· and ~~t _ b:e ca~led by the press wo_~~ering .iJ; I gave her a colour TV set, as if it were any of their bloody business if-I decided to give her one. ~ -·-. ---- -·--- It is a 3591.

¥.arch 25, 1977 Tape 1291 IB-1 ~. RICKEY: sad day, Mr. Speaker, when politics has got to come to this. SO'ME RON. ME¥BERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS-: ~r. Speaker, the - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Rear, hear! MR.. SPEAKER : Order! Order! Order! MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman, the Minister of Tourism, , has not followed the appropriate p-rocedur-e for a point of privilege but I assume in view of his latter remarks he does not wish to • Let me first of all say that I accept his expl~nation, substantiated as it is by documents.

I have not seen the documents,and in due course I will,but that _is not the issue because I am quite sure the documents are as the hon. gentleman read them out, and a cheque that was issued, a cheque that was deposited, and cleared through the clearing house is obviously a genuine cheque. I have no hesitation in saying that if I have offended the person who- lives at that address - and the reason . . I did not name the person although I was in possession of her name was because I did not want to bring her into it and I did not. SO'f-1E RON. MEMBERS: Oh ~- Oli!""- - ----: 1"R.. SPEA..lCEF: Order, please!

Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, hen. gentlemen opposite are entitled to their opinions. But, Mr. Speaker, let me say that - let me finish first of all saying if I have offended the person in question, the lady in question, I have no hesitation in apologizing to her fully, publicly and without reservation. I would say as well if the hen. gentleman, the ~inister of Tourism, Sir, feels that he has been offended, then I have no hesitation in apologizing to him for any hurt I may have done his feelings. Mr.

Speaker, the fact remains that the information which I had in my possession indicated that a Zenith combination stereo and television set had been purchased by Mr. Walsh or his firm. The list price was $1,749. He got a discount and it was paid for at $1,399.95,

~...arch 25, 1977 Tape 1291 IB-2 MR. ROBERTS: a very healthy discount, _ a S350 discount. Mr. Walsh is a good customer. Mr. Walsh, Sir - and this is the interesting fact - did not buy it for resale in that he paid the retail sales tax on it. The retail sales tax at ten per cent is $140. Added together that is $1,539.95, which of course is the amount of the cheque which the hon. gentleman tabled,and obviously the same amount that ~r. Walsh paid for it. Well I accept the hon. gentleman's explanation, ~r. Speaker. I do not have any hesitation at all. I am glad he has made it.

I am glad he has set the matter clear and I hope, Sir, that his colleagues will be equally clear to look into the other matters which have been raised and which will be raised. But the point I make, Sir, is that on the information which I had in my possession, particularly the fact that Mr. Walsh or his firm - I do not know whether Mr. Walsh himself paid it or not - that Mr. lvalsh paid the retail sales· tax; in other words he obviously did not buy it for resale. He did not buy it for resale, Sir. He did not buy it using his vendor's license • .'--~-:-- "MoRGAlf!___ This is shocking. - . MR.

ROBERTS: It is certainly. It is shocking, Y-r. Speaker, in my view when a contractor doing $1 million worth of business with the government without tender - MR. MORGAN: He is still casting innuendo. MR. ROBERTS: ~r. Speaker, it is shocking in my view and it requires explanation when a contractor doing a million dollars worth of business with a government without tender buys a television set,and is not in the business of buying television sets, pays retail sales tax on it, and then has that set delivered to another person.

Now, Sir, there is obviously nothing illegal or improper in what has happened,because the minister has produced a cheque which is full and sufficient proof, no question, no quarrel. I am glad he has done it. But, Sir, the fact remains that the ~atter had to be raised,and on the evidence which I had I felt I ought to raise it and I would do it again, Sir, on the same evidence because I believe, Sir, that matters of this sort must be 3533

March 25, 1977 Tape 1291 IB-3 !-'B.. POBERTS: put to the test as quickly, as fully and as fairly and as impartially as possible. And I only wish, Sir_, that if the Premier had a cheque he too would produce it, Sir. We would have the other one settled one way or the other as well. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must point out to the hon. Leader of the Opposition that with respect to the matter referred to in his last remark, that is a matter now sub judice. MR. ROBERTS: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Of course I will make no reference to it. I am grateful. Mr.

Speaker, let me say that I think the ?~inister of Tourism has done the right thing. I am glad he has done it. Mr. Speaker, it may very well be unpleasant for him. It is certainly unpleasant for me. But the fact remains, Sir, that as long as there are people in public life, Sir, they must not only be above suspicion but they must appear to be above suspicion. What is the old saying? "Caesar ''s wife must be - ------.------ --- ___ ... __ -__ _._ ·. --.-=.=. .- _ MR- HI'~:; ____ ':I1iat" t~ low _ d~. . 1-'!R. ROBERTS: The lady is not Caesar's wife or anybody's wife to my knowledge. .3594

!1arch 25, 1977 Tape no. 1292 Page 1 - mw Hr. Roberts. Mr. Speaker, I did not mention her name, and I ·do not intend to mention her name. But the fact remains, Sir, the fact remains, Sir, that when one comes across information like this it must be made public. It must be gone into, because there are instances which can only be resolved, and they have now been resolved, Sir, and that is fine. I accept it. If I have offended the lady in~~ w~y I apologize to her, I have no hesitation at all. And if I have offended the hon. gentleman, I apologize to him as well.

But, Sir, I still say that on the information which I had, the fact that the thing was bought at a healthy discount, the fact that -retail sales tax was paid on it, and the fact that the firm who bought it is not in the business of buying and selling television sets, and the fact that that firm is in the business of doing work with the government without tender, and a significant amount of work, then, Sir, it should be brought to light. I am glad that it has been brought to light, and I am glad that it has been cleared up. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: ·The han. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: I have one answer here ' to Question 160, ~~. Speaker, asked by the hon. member for LaPoile.OMr. Neary). MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: \-lith reference to a question asked by the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) regarding the seats in upgrading - r A...~ HON. HID1BER: Mr. Speaker, to a point of order. I cannot hear the han. minister. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. gentleman has raised a point of order, a very valid one,in that it is difficult if not impossible for him to hear the han. minister. And that I do not think is due to the han. minister,but due to noise emanating from others.

l>Iarch 25, 1977 Tape no .1292 Page 2- mw ~~ • HOUSE: Referring to the question yesterday regarding the ~Ianpower seats being bought this year, there will be about five per cent less than was last year according to our figures. And that is not due to less money, but for the higher cost of seats, and the're is no decision yet as to where these will be taken from, what areas. It may be distributed across the Province. We are not sure yet about any school. HR. SPEAKER: Oral questions. HR. MURPHY: ~fR. SPEAKER: 1-'Ir.

Speaker - The han. minister wishes leave to revert to Answers to Questions: MR. ~111RPHY : It was not a direct question, but I am -referring to the petition as presented by my hon_. friend from Fortune Hermitage (~. J. Winsor) with reference to the telephones. I did get some information, Sir, I would like to give to the House.

We phoned, not as the department,'but as a private individual, we phoned Newfoundland Telephone Company, and they tell us - and this is just perhaps a little information no~- that immediately you notify that company that your telephone is out of order, and if for a period, say, forty-eight hours afterwards it is still out of order, you ·are entitled to a rebate on it. This is the Newfoundland Telephone Company. HR. STI-!MONS: MR. MURPHY: HR. SL'1MONS : If the hen. minister "tvould permit? Go ahead. Does the company set about making the adjustment or do you have to particularly press that the adjustment be made?

If my telephone wer_e out for forty-eight hours, would the onus be on me to go to Newfoundland Telephone and say, 11Make the adjustment!' or would they automatically make it once they knew the telephone was out for that period of time? MR. MURPHY: Well, as I understand it, Hr. Speaker - and I just want to put this out because we did immediately make some enquiries - immediately I notify Newfoundland Telephone that my telephone 3536

March 25, 1977 Tape no. 1292 Page 3- mw H:r. Hurphy. is out of order, subsequently if it is not fixed within the next forty-eight hours, then we lod~e a complaint as to that portion of the bill that you are entitled as a refund. In Canadian National Telegraph it is twenty-four hours. So if your telephone is out of order,you notify CNT that your phone is not working; then subsequently for each twenty-four hour period,or whatever it might be, you are entitled to a rebate on your telephone bill. In other words,if you are out four days, one-seventh of your telephone bill - basically, it is on a percentage basis.

So I just wan~ed to bring this information that we have worked on the thing and if anybody has any specific e~quiri~~· I wo~~d love to get them because we would be only too happy to investigate it and get some action going. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance in his Treasury Board presidency capacity, and as so often these days it relates to the strike at the Waterford. The minister is reading ·the paper. I hate to break in - MR. DOODY: I am just trying to see what other dirt you got smeared around. MR.

ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Speaker, the minister may feel that, but I would like to know what other dirt is smeared around as well in the light of the ministry's conduct on a number of points, Sir, excepting - well that is another story. MR. MORGAN: Excepting what? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must insist •. -R~ __ are now in the Question Period- -- - - ·- ---SOHE HON. MEMBERS"~ Oh ' · Oh! MR. SPE.A.J<ER: Order, please! - and han. members may ask ques~ions, han. members may answer them, but any matters referred to before under a different

March 25, 1977 Tape no. 1292 Page 4 - mw M-r. Soeaker. routine procedure,or matters extraneous to the questions, may not now be debated or commented upon or interjected. The han. Leader of the Opposition. ~1R. ROBERTS: Well, thank you.- - ~~-· ·-·- ~--

March 25, 1977 Tape 1293 PK - 1 Mr~ Roberts: I can tell the minister at this time I am not going to ask whether he feels that the government should set up a royal commission to look into the $52,000 Scrivener donation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. PECKFORD: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order. MR. PECKFORD: The point of order is simply this; is this the Question Period1 And if it is the Question Period, Mr. Speaker, I· fail to understand the comments just made by the Leader of the Opposition that he is prefacing or using prefacing remarks to make his question clear.

He is completely out of order. Therefore that is my point of order. • - ~ I ' SOME- HeN;; MEMBERS: · Oh, oh! . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I have to confess one hon. member sent me a note which I was reading, and I really do not know what the preface was, so rather than check the tapes I will call upon the Leader of the Opposition to continue. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Finance and it grows out of the Waterford Hospital situation. The minister told the House two or three days ago that a new offer had been received from the union representing these employees.

Could he tell us ~ yet whether the government have made any response with respect to the o£fer1 And if they have, what that response is1 And furthermore · something which has not become public and obviously should not until the offer is considered and a decision is made, what exactly is the offer? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance? MR. DOODY: There is a letter from Treasury Board being hand delivered to Mr. Locking of NAPE this morning inviting him to join us in the discussions on the offer which they had made a day or so prior to today.

What will came of these discussions is obviously too early to say, even if these discussions do·. take place. We sincerely hope that they do. And that is the object of the exercise 3599

March 25, 1977 Tape 1293 PK - 2 Mr. Doody: this morning is to try to get both groups together at the table. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, to be very clear on the point~ The minister - I am not sure if this is an interrogative, although it is a question - are we to understand, Sir, that as a result of this new offer made by Mr.

Locking in behalf of NAPE, the minister has asked his advisers, his negotiators,to come to grips with the matter by sitting down and reopening negotiations presumably on the basis of the new offer? Is that a correct understanding of it? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: There is a letter being hand delivered this morning to Mr. Locking,the General Manager and Chief Negtltiator of NAPE asking for some points of clarification on the letter which he had presented to us some days . ago, and asking for him and his group to sit down with our group to try to resolve the outstanding problems. MR.

ROBERTS: MR. DOODY: MR. SPEAKER:­ MR. NEARY: Is this on the basis ·of the new offer? On the basis of the new offer. The hen. from LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Finance tell the House what steps his department or the government-have taken to get Memorial University to submit a detailed budget to the House of Assembly the . same as every other Crown ageney and Crown corporation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: We are taiing the same steps that are taken every year. We have asked the President of the University to submit the detailed budgets~ MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR.

NEARY: A supplementary. A supplementary. Do I understand from the cinister!s answer then that the House will get a detailed account of the University's 3600

March 25, 1977 Tape 1293 PK - 3 Mr. Neary: estimate before approval is given for expenditure at the Univeristy in the next fiscal year? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: No, I do not think that the House should assume that, Sir, not from the answer that I just gave. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am dissatisfied with the answer and I wish to debate the matter during the Late Show on Thursday coming. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member from Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR.. SIMMONS : Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance; actually it is the same question I put to the Premier yesterday in the minister's absence. I referred to a debt profile that had been done by his department, I believe, or by Treasury Board in October,l975, a rather excellent and comprehensive profile of the -- -- Province's debt position, and I was wondering whether an up-date has been undertaken or is to be undertaken to get a more up to date debt profile, that is about eighteen months ago now. I wondered if the minister is planning such a step or indeed if one is in the works at the moment? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Yes, Your Honour, that is being up dated and revised and the department are presently working on it. When it will be ready I am not in a position to say. MR.. SPEAKER: The hen. member from LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health, Sir, if it is possible in this Province to get a death certificate from the Department of Statistics downstairs, if it is possible to get a death certificate for a relative, to get a death certificate showing the real, the true cause of death, you kriow~ if it is in the family? ----- - ----·- ··- - - ----

~1arch 25, 1977 Tape ~ro. 1294 NM - 1 MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. Hinister of Health. ~1R. COLLINS : Mr. Speaker, I prefer to take that as notice and get a response for the hon. member. I would not want to say something .~.;rhich might not be the facts. But I will certainly undertake to get the information. HR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. "MR. STR.~CHAL~: A question for the Minister of Hines and Energy, ~1r .• _ Speaker.

Just a small point~ but as we know the oil weJl!? , which are drilled are named from No~egian derivatives ~nd Scandanavian derivatives, Snorri, Bjarni, Gudrid, and so on4 I wonder if the minister could undertake to make sure that the oil companies who are going to drill any f9r their ~.;rells name these wells after the Provincial Nomenclature. They could be called Cabot, or Terra Nova or something like that, rather than Scandanavian derivatives. MR. SPEAKER : The han. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR.

PECKFORD: Intensive discussions have been going on in the last two or three months between myself and the member for Naskaupi (Hr. Goudie) -- - to ensure that our names are enshrined on a number of geological structures off the Labrador Coast. MR. HICIOL~l: Hear! _ _Eear ! ~. NEARY: A supplementary, ~r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~1R. NEARY: Would the minister care to comment on public statements by Dr. Stuart Peters that the oil companies, the petroleum companies ~ihi:i were-- drilling off Labrador are now flocking to Greenland, that we are going to lose all - MR.

NEARY: That they are now· -flocking to Greenland, Sir, and ~1hat would be the consequences of this on the oil and gas exploration drilling off Labrador? The hen. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD : None as I know for, ~1r. Speaker, at all and the

Harch 25", 1977 Tape No. 12'4 NM- 2 - ' MR. PECKFORD : phraseology that they are flocking to Greenland is completely untrue from our information. We also understand, by the way of interest~! am sure,to all han. members,that the regulatory regime implemented by the country of De~~ark is much more stringent than what we have proposed,because we have been to Denmark to check it out,and also much more stringent than that imposed now under the obsolete regulations that the federal government have that they are now revamping. There is no flocking to Greenland.

There is some interest in structures off Greenland,as there is off Australia, as there is off New Guinea, as there is off the Philippines, as there is off Trinidad- 'Tobago, as there is off Venezuela, as there is off Louisiana and so on·, and therefore it is natural for companies to investigate and do geophysical- and geochemical works of all bodies of land that show some enticing results. But there is no flocking. Tt does not bear on ~ewfoundland at all. Eastcan has acreage off Newfoundland that they have been involved in and which they will continue to be involved in~in my opinion.

Shell has acreage that they are interested in pursuing. Imperial, • -- =.::-· - ~ B.P. and Petro-Canada were involved last year and no doubt will be involved again. I do not see any great relationship between either the increase in Greenland and the decrease off Labrador or vice versa. And with the regime that Denmark-- · -has it is astounding to me that on the one hand somebody can say that there is a lot of companies flocking to Greenland .· .... and none coming here because of our regulatory regime which is even easier. So the whole thing does not pan out. ~~. NEARY: A supplementary. ~!R.

SPEAKER: A supplementary. lfuo asked the last question? The hon. member for LaPoile~a supplementary. 1'!R. NEARY : Mr. Speaker~do I understand then in the minister's answer,and the minister has assured the House, that there will be

:1arch 25, 1977 Tape No. 1294 :NH- 3 MR. NElL~Y: movement of oil drilling because of the stringent regulations that have been laid down by this government and the delay in producing a white paper,that there will be no movement a~vay from Newfoundland out of waters because of this situation. 'i-1R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of ~1ines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: In our opinion, 1tt.

Speaker, that is_true, that I can assure the House that in our opinion we do not think that the regulations that we are proposing ~vill in any way move companies from one area, like off Labrador, to some other country where they are doing offshore drilling. That is the one and one thing.that the han. m~ber is referring to. And you know it is just not true from where we sit, and from our understanding of the regulations of Denmark ~ and other places. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Eagle River. ~fR.

STRACHA}T: Could the minister confirm, is it not true that the reason why the: statements are made that the companies are flocking to Greenland is purely because of the early season starting in Greenland and most of the drill ships will go to Greenland first because of the ice free water before they ~vill turn over through Labrador. And if this is the case that people will see this happening, that the very ships drilling off Labrador are the ships which first of all drill off Greenland. Is that correct? ~. SPEAKER: The con. Minister of ~fines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Yes, that is very true.

Anybody who is knowledgeable in the business of oil exploration in the North Atla~tic recognizes that what the hon. member for Eagle River (~rr. Strachan) just said is a very, very valid observation of the exploration scene offshore in the North Atlantic. , And this is exactly the point that a lot of the early drill ships will go off Greenland. And you know it is extremely interesting - one~is they have extremely stringent oil and gas regulations, Denmark has off Greenland;

~..arch 25, 1977 Tape No. 1294 NM- 4 XR. PECKFORD: two, all the drilling that has been done to date _:!._~ - ~r~, dry holes' -· ~o .. d~scoveries, not one lTillionth cubic feet per day or per minute or whatever. And,you knm.;, it just defies

~-1'arch 25, 1977 Tape 1295 IB-1 rAR. PECKFORD: reason to hear anybody in Newfoundland indicating,who are supposed to know that, you know, all the activity is going away from Newfoundland to Greenland because of some s.trange and weird regulations that we -~ . ' are trying to bring in to hurt the economy of Newfoundland. ~"'R.. SPEAKER: I recognize the hon. member for LaPoile for a final supplementary,and then the hon. member for Bay of Islands and the hon. member for Hindsor-Buchans. }fF_ • NEARY : Mr. Speaker, is the minister saying that Dr.

Peters and his company have absolutely no foundation to making these public statements, that they have no liaison with the government or with-the oil compa~ies ~nvolved? Is this what the minister is saying, that they are talking through their hat? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFOFn: It seems to us that the statements that have been made that play in tha North Atlantic. MR. SPEAKE~ : The hon. member: for Bay of Islands. MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the ~!inister of Health.

I would like to ask the; Minis~er of Health, ~tr. _Speaker, when will cobalt treatment be made available at ~olestern Regional ~emorial Hospital in Corner Brook? I. ask this question,. Mr. Speaker, because of the expense involved by people getting to and from the Hest coast of the Province for·cobalt treatment. SO¥E RON . }1E'MSERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKEF.: The hon. Minister of Health. MR ~ NEARY: Any notice of it? ¥-F .• COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, there is only one facility in Newfoundland where cobalt treatment is available and that is at the General Hospital in St. John's.

In fact on the Canadian scene and the American scene cobalt treatment is very rarely made available in areas of population less than one million people. We · do - have one such treatment facility in Newfoundland and I would say, Mr. Speaker, that we are lucky to have that one and I cannot see that being extended.

}farch 25, 1977 Tape 1295 IB-2 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. }~. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This question to the hon. ¥.inister of Consumer Affairs.

Would the minister confirm or care to comment on the fact <;>r the allegation that people in Newfoundland., ' particularly rural Newfoundland,who are now putting wood burning units in their houses to complement their_~e~g requirements,that normally have had their houses heated with either electrical heat or with fuel, hot air furnaces, that people who are putting these wood burning units in ·their houses are having their insur~ce policies cancelled by companies, companies are refusing to insure or to continue insurance on houses that. are having these types of installations put in? ~~. NOLAN: That is a fact, yes.

MR. FLIGHT: Now,if you will permit me a little

preamble, Sir. With the ever escalating costs of fuel or electric heat a lot of people in rural Newfoundland, a great number of people are going to wood. Now, Sir, would the minister comment on the fact that the insurance companies are cancelling policies of people who indeed do this 9 and in cases where they are not cancelling them are increasing them to a point where it is just not feasible to have insurance? :MF .• SPEAKER: The hon. }finister of Consumer Affairs. MF .• ~HY: Mr. Speaker, it is the first intimation I have had of that case.

I know of many that I have come ,to in my own district,even where people without furnace heated houses,with just space heaters, have been refused insurance. But that is the first intimation I have. And ~ can just add again, Sir, that if anybody has any particular _ case let us have it and we would certainly have it looked into. And I look at the hon. member next, Sir. I do not know if he is having any problems but I would be only too happy to go to bat for him, he is a very good friend of mine. MR. FLIGHT':. A supplementary. ~. SP~~R: A supplementary. --MR~ -Ft!Gtrt": I-~r.

Speaker, it is indeed a fact that this, what I referred to, is happening,and would the minister undertake to determine 3607

¥.arch 25, 19 77 Tape 1295 IB-3 MF.. WOODROW: what the insurance companies 1 attitude in this particular case is and inform the Rouse th~reof when he gets the information that I have asked him to get. Would the minister use his department, the Department of Consumer Affairs, to determine whether or not this is indeed a policy of the insurance companies to refuse insurance or cancel insurance policies of people who are installing wood burning units? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. l~inister of Consumer Affairs. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, with relation to that, you _know, that is a rather theoretical question.

If I had my consumer affairs officers to phone seventy-five or eighty insurance companies and ask them if I put in a wood stove - if I get one case even I can check the thing. I think everybody must agree with that rather than going out and saying, _''W~~- you not insure tomorrow for this.,or will you not insure .• ''" But you know we are ot1fy too happy to heln and I would appreciate any cases of that and we would certainly have it looked into. - - ·------- -----· - ...... .. _ -·. _ _,__ _____ ---· . .. --- 36C8

Narch 25, 1977 Tape no. 1296 Page 1 - mw UR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Baie Verte - White Bay. HR. RIDEOUT: ·Hr. Speaker, my question is for the Hinister of Health. I wonder if the minister could tell the Rouse whether or not there has been any correspondence between his department or any of his officials and Dr. Selikoff and his team -- since they have been to Baie Verte last June? MR.. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Health. 'HR.. COLLINS : Mr. Speaker, I do not recall eny written correspondence. I do know that there were some phone calls made. I am not sure who originated the phone calls.

I believe our department did some time ago to ~ry to ascertain when the Selikoff report might be made available to the Steelworkers of America, who were the peoole who got in touch with Dr. Selikoff in the first place. The latest information that I have was that more information was being gathered by Dr. Selikoff and that the report should - have been received around the end of January. Since then I do not know where the situation is, _?ut I presume that the report will be received momentarily. I also understand, in the meantime, that Dr.

Selikoff has been involved in some other investigations in various parts of the States, particularly this cattle disease ~lichigan, I believe it was. I think that has been attributed t soma of-his activities there~ have \ attributed to the delay in the iting of his report with regard to Baie Verte. I weuld cer t inly undertake to see if we can get some further information, but as I recall it that is the situation now. MR.. RIDEOUT : A supplementary, }tr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

RIDEOUT: I appreciate the minister's assurance that he will do that, because it is nine months now and the people are becoming fairly anxious. Could the minister tell the House whether or not he has any assurance from the Selikoff team that his department will be presented \-lith a report of its findings at the same time that the report is to be presented to the Steelworkers Union?

March 25, 1977 Tape no. 1296 Page 2 - mw }ffi. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. :t<.!R. COLLINS: 'Hr. Speaker, as the hon. member knows when Dr. Selikoff came into the Province he did get in touch with the government after he got in touch with the Opposition, and we can forgive him for that. He did approach our department for financial assistance, and any other assistance we might be able to offer. And our department did co-operate with the doctor in terms of providing transportation, in terms of providing all of the X-rays and other medical recor~s which he might want to see. We also sent Dr.

Callahan in with him~ and we also contributed, I think, $5,000 in addition to the other contributions. And we had his assurance that when the .. . report was submitted to the SteelY-orkers that ':'Je \vou!d get a copy, and I presume that he is a man of his word, and that he will let us have a copy. MR. RIDEOUT: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary by the original questioner. MR.. RIDEOUT: Yes, ¥~. Speaker, and also to correct the record. Dr. Sellikoff did not get in touch with the Opposition. The Opposition got . in touch with him. We called him and wrote him. A supplementary, Hr. Speaker.

Could the minister tell the House whether or not his department has made any efforts to follow up on a recent study done by Dr. O'Brien at Memorial University with regard to an early detection device through sputum tests and so on to detect asb~stosis and other ~sbest.o.~ -~~l,ated diseases? Has there been any follow up by the minister's department in this regard? MR.. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, there has been some follow-up. Dr. O'Brien at the university did some work in terms of the lab technician type of support service to Dr. Selikoff. Dr.

O'Brien is not a medical doctor; and we are satisfied that all of the information which Dr. Selikoff needed to enable him to write an intelligent report ·· he has that in his hands. "'"JC.:··'.i 0 •-.11'0~'

March 25, 1977 Tape no. 1296 Page 3 - mw MR. NEARY: Mr. Spe~er, a supplementary. }JR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr.• Speaker, is it my understanding,or do I understand correctly from the minister,that first of all the report will be sent to the individual miners in Baie Verte, then to the Stee~~~S. and then to the government, the Department. of Health. Would the minister tell the House if he is aware if the report is yet in the hands of any of the individuals who have been examined in Baie Verte by Dr. Selikoff? And if so, have they passed the information on to the Minister o£ Health? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR,. COLLINS : Mr. Speaker, whether the report will go to individuals in Baie Verte or not, I am not sure. I would suspect· that a copy will go to the president of the Steelworkers Local in Baie Verte. I do not know if what I am saying is right, but it is my impression. I also understand that when the report is made to the ~~1 of the Ste~~~!~- ·in Baie Verte that a copy will be made available to us~ at the same tim.e, I would hope.

¥arch 25, 1977 Tape 1297 IB-1 ~. COLLINS: But I have no information that any copy has been made available to anybody or that the report has been completely written yet. ¥R. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile one additional supplementary. Then the hon. member for Bellevue. MR. NEARY: I just want to clarify this situation, Sir. The report as such, the overall report, would not go to individuals.

But the individual report on each case, his own case, will be sent to the individual who was exai'I.ined. · Does the minister know if any of these people have received their own separate individual reports on their diagnosis? MR. COLLINS : What the hen. member refers to is the testing of any particular individual, whether his report would go back. I am unable to say if anybody have received the reports. I can certainly undertake to find out. 1!R. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLA}l: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the ~inister of Transportation and Communications.

In addition to making funds available for the upgrading of the Markland road th:f.s Summer, I am wondering what plans the ministry has for that

section of the Trans-canada say between the overpass there at Dawe's in as far perhaps as the Newfoundland Liquor --------- -Commission. '-------- - That section,as the minister knows,is a two lane section. As I travel it every day, morning and evening and night,I find an awful of traffic there in the sixty mile zone going ten, fifteen, twenty miles an hour. Obviously there is a need for t~ro extra lanes. What plans does the ministry have? JIAF .• MORGAN: What section? MR. rALLAN: - From the overpass in as far as the Board of Liquor Control. ¥R. SPEAKEF: The hen. ~inister of Transportation and Communications.

MR. ~RGAN: ~r. Speaker, to answer the first part of the question, as I indicated a few days ago I cannot give any definite indication what work will be done on the ¥arkland road this year. We will take a look

March 25, 1977 Tape 1297 IB-2 }lP.. ~OP.GAN : at that road,as we did last year,and look at the funds available in the department. Now with regards to that

section of the Trans-canada, I fully agree with the bon. gentleman that that

section is used quite a bit by people who commute back and forth to work from around the Conception Bay area in particular, . the area where the han. gentleman is residing. In other words,th~re is a very heavy volume of traffic on that

section of road. That

section is part of the submission or applicatio~~ call it what you wish, that is now before the federal Cabinet with regards to the upgrading of the Trans-canada, one of the sections we are looking at four-laning all the way. ~. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. STP.ACF.AN: Unfortunately, }fr. Speaker, the }!inister of }1'..anpower and Industrial Relations whom I wish to direct the question to is someWhere behind.

Could the minister tell us whether the task force which was set up to look into the situation at Goose Bay, Happy Valley- Goose Bay with loggers on which there has been some discussion recently· in the· papers· and newsletters, could he tell us the state of affairs with that and if that report can be made public and whether anything is going to be done on it? MR. SPEAKER: The han. ~inister of Manpower. ~-· ROUSSEAU: The report is in, Mr. Speaker, by the way. There was some delay, naturally.

There were quite a few people intervie~ved and it took two to three weeks, I think about two and a half weeks but I will say two to three weeks after they returned from the Goose Bay- Happy Valley area, that was people from the provincial Department of Manpower,and also we had a federal gent~eman go up with them and compile all the information at meetings there. They came back to St. John's of course and they compiled that and that took two to three weeks again. It is before government. There were two options suggested by the task force that went up.

Government has approved in principle one of the options subject to costing it out. It is nm-1 being casted out by the Department

¥..arch 25, 1977 Tape 1297 IB-3 't-'F.. ROUSSEAU: of Finance. They are getting it as fast as they can. We hope to have it - I hope that it will be available by next week's Cabinet meeting at the latest. Obviously they had to look at a number of details as to the cost, just what we are talking about for the various aspects which I am sure the hon. member is aware of. But government in princ~ple have approved,as the Premier has given the commitment, that something would be done.

We realize that the people are undergoing hardship now and we are trying to get it as fast as we can. , As a matter of fact we had to send the group in again for some people' who were not covered in the first instance. But once we get the cost factor on it,and we have to decide whether the option that we have approved in principle is the better option, both options I think Would be satisfactory to the people, maybe one a little more or less than another but basically they both would be aceeptable. But we have to find the cost factor. It would be pretty difficult to say2.

"Yes, we are going to do this," and all of a sudden find out that that is not the better one to do. So I would hope by next week's Cabinet meeting we would have that information and as soon as we have it, it would be made public. And I think the Premier has indicated through the member for the district involved that within a week or ten days we should have an answer. I would hope by late next week at the very latest. 361.4

March 25, 1977 Tape 1298 PK- 1 MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member from LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a questio~ _ I am not sure if it is the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs or the Minister of Industrial Development, either one can answer my question. But have either gentlemen or the Provincial Government been in touch with CN or the Government of Canada in connection with the reports that the CN Dry Dock here in St. John's is going to be phased out over a period of the next two years? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. MR.

LUNDRIGAN: Well I will just maybe make a very brief comment. We are very concerned that the CN have not taken very much more agressive action in building up the capability that we have in the Port of St. John's. As a matter of fact at the present moment I can confirm that there has been\~ initiative taken by the Federal Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce to look at the facilities in St. John's, and.to try to recognize the need to provide more capability to receive shipping and to engage in repair work and the like that might be related to the offshore effort.

There is a task force that I understand will be appointed by the Federal Department. Now~ur-position is very firm that there is much more potential in the St. John's ~o~e-than has been recognized by the Federal Government. The Federal Government have made comments such as the fact that the 200 mile limit will mean a decrease in activity in the-port. ·~our position is that it could very well mean an increase ----- -- -- because of the increased: sfi~ppil!g that will by·. our type of Can~dian shipping effort.

Another point that I would like to mention is that the offshore activity with oil and gas as far as we are concerned represents . a continuing growing requirement for more capability in St. John's at the CN Dry Dock. Another point I would like to mention, Mr. Speaker, is that we have recognized for at least a couple of years that Newfoundland and Labrador could be very, very well strategicaliy .located as far as the transshipm.ent of oil from the Arctic is concerned. Hon. members "..l6A­U :.1.~

March 25, 1977 'fape 1298 PK - 2 Mr. Lundrigan: might have read in the press yesterday a report that came out that there could very well be in the negotiations regarding export of oil and gas from the Arctic,it migh very well mean ~West-East movement which would mean that the activity will be on the Atlantic Seaboard rather than the Western Seaboard. And we have had studies done along these lines. So our position is very firmly that there is a requirement to upgrade the capability that we have in St. John's. Marystown with its shipyard in the past year has been able to attract some international attention.

We have maintained a good work force, we have got some other work on the drawing boards. We feel with the_kind of _attitude we have had in Marystown-as a Province,~if the Federal Government were ta take this kind of initiative through its -crockjara-we could very well have a tremdenous expansion at the CN Dockyard rather than the threat of what the hon. member has suggested. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I asked the minister originally if- the Provincial Government had communicated with the Federal Government, I appreciate the minister's answer, but all that information I would like to see communicated to Ottava or to CN. But the question I want to ask the minister.now, Sir~ is the minister and the Provincial Government aware that CN are tying up their ships in the off season in a port over in North Sydney,called Port Edward, I think, it is, or Point Edward, _ Port Edward ---- MR. LUNDRIGAN: Point Edward. MR. NEARY: - Point Edward in North Sydney.

And just another move on the part of CN to sneak - a part of their operations out of Newfoundland,and have this government protested that sort·-of thing? 361.6

March 25, 1977 Tape 1298 PK - 3 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, we have had numermous kinds of protestations mf the sort 'the han. member is suggesting. We are never very satisfied with the CN's attitude towards the Province.

Really it should not require Industry, Trade and Commerce in the Province to have to put a fire under CN to get them to recognize what is a fact, that is, that we do have capability, we do have the ' f.)• - 1 and pay cheques of :e, we have CN much ~c /-. 3//f-'f- td we have have talked lys on their 1et with the :he cause to -*k. d.,ce(.r\ 11.atic to say ......: . :t bigger L/ ~- iers. _o;_ __ l?~.ine~s '(V'vt-·l ("" . rgent public ::> thousands of III.ent insurance Canada. Pension 361.7

March 25, 1977, Tape 1299, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: workers, I move the regular order of business of the House be deferred to debate this matter to determine what emergency assistance the provincial government can provide through Welfare Officers, Fisheries Off.icers, . - Forestry Field Staff, Rural Development .C~u~~~~~~s and other field representatives of the provincial government, to assist the post office in delivering cheques throughout Newfoundland and Labrador during this strike!' MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, just one brief word.

That same motion was - no,it was not made yesterday by the bon. I gentleman because he was out of order. I simply direct Your Honour's attention to one or two facts~ __ One, there was an announcement,. I am told, made by a gentleman who is the head of the Unemployment Insurance Commission office in Newfoundland, saying that - MR. NEARY: ~~n Batten, was it? MR. HICKMAN: No, it was not Mr. Batten, I do not think. Some gentleman in the U.I.C. office saying that arrangements would be made, I think, by twelve noon today to have these cheques released. I did not hear it,., thi!' has come to me second-hand.

But apart from that' altogether, Mr. Speaker, it is a matter, I submit, that falls more properly within the responsibility of parliament. ______ Again we see in the press wher~- there ·a=._e _very active negotiations going on between the national president of the union and management. I do adm;.t that whilst there is undoubtedly tremendous inconvenience to Newfoundlanders, a case · has not been made to indicate an urgency in debate in this House. MR. MURPHY: ------ ---- -------Are they going to seek the assistance of the Social ~ervices people1 MR. NEARY: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: I will hear a brief comment from the bon. member. ·----- - - - --- --- --·--------- 3618

March 25, 1977, Tape 1299, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: I would like to point out to the government House Leader, Sir, the gentleman·who raised the point of order, that the matter outlined in my motion, Sir, falls within provincial jurisdiction! although the post office is federal jurisdiction, but the matter outlined in my resolution, Sir, to have this · government assist the post office to get these cheques delivered falls within provincial jurisdiction. I think it is our duty as elected representatives of the people to come to the rescue of the people in their hour o.f distress. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please: In making a decision on this matter, as han. members know, the basic decision is not the urgency of the matter but the urgency of debate; 1-That all other considerations before the Rouse must be left in abeyance and that if the requisite procedure were to follow afterward, that debate on __ t~is-ma~;e~_Eake _ precedence over all other matters.

Realizing the seriousness of the matter, realizing as well that the cause~ the essential cause of all of this is a matter within federal jurisdiction, but obviously certain remedial matters that the hon. member has proposed are within provincial jurisdiction, realizing all of that and the urgency of the matter I cannot see any prima facie case for the urgency of debate at this time. Therefore, I cannot rule it in 9rder. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. RICKMAN: Order 19, Bill No. 2~. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Fish Inspection Act." (Bill No. 20). MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Fisheries.

MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, when I adjourned the debate on these amendments on Tuesday, I think it was, we were discussing the situation with respect to the Port au Port Peninsula and the situation concerning one Mr. Allan Baker, who alleges that he is 3619 ,>,

March 25, 1977, Tape 1299, Page 3 -- apb MR. 'W. CARTER: being unfairly treated by the Department of Fisheries. Maybe I can just go back over some of the even.ts that have occurred in the area for the sake of tbe Rouse and my bon. colleague from Port au Port. On August 27 • 1975, a meeting was held in tile Port au Port Peninsula to discuss the future direction of the then financially plagued Port au Port Fishermen's Co-operative. Attending this meeting were members of the Co-op, Co-op officials, the local M.B.A.'s 36:ZO

Harch 25, 1977 Tape no. 1300 Page 1 - HS !-1R. W. CARTER : and other concerned fishermen. Variou~ points were discussed and various options were considered. It was generally felt that the best course would be to let the Port au Port Fishermen's Co-operative_ go into liquidation and maybe to for.n a netv association. At a later meeting it was decided against that course because,apparently,the required number of fishermen were not available and the required share-capital requirement of $75,000 was not forthcoming.

So, therefore, the Department of Fisheries, as a last-ditch-stand on the part of the fishermen, were requested to try to find an operator who would move in there and fill the vacuum that was pnovided by the holding up, by the bankruptcy of the Port au Port Co-operative. The department then approached three companies; T. J. F~rdy and Company Limited, a well-known fish processing operator at Port aux Basques! The Department of Fisheries contacted the United Maritime Fisheries, another well-known and well-established company, and National Sea Products Limited, another well-known Canadian fish processing company.

The latter company did express an interest in moving into that area. The department officials later discussed the proposal with officials of National Sea, and with the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation, the terms of which were accepted by both bodies, by National Sea and by the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation. It was felt, however, that due to ·the small landings that were taking place in that area that there would not be room for more than one company. And I have the landings here.

For example, cod which was the main species landed in 1974, there was 1.7 million pounds; in 1975, 1.7 million pounds; in 1976, because of the increased activity~! presume) and the .increased fish stocks in the area, as was the case in most parts of Newfoundland, the cod production increased to three million pounds, still hardly enough to keep·a good sized operation or,at least~ to justify the establishment of an operation in that particular field.

March 25, 1977 Tape no. 1300 Page 2 - mw Mr. \v. Carter. Indeed I am told that even a small feeder plant operation, such as the ones we have around the Province, the one that we are setting up in Musgrave Harbour, the one that is presently in operation in my riding of Admiral's Beach and the one that we are establishing now in Little Harbour East, I am told that unless you can be almost guaranteed a landing of in excess of three or four million pounds that it is hardly worth-while to establish even a small feeder plant operation.

The fact that we were dealing with National Sea, a well-known and reputable company, a company of great promise in the Atlantic area, gave some consolation, I think, to the fishermen of the Port au Port Peninsula. We then had meetings with the various people out there. I, myself, went to the Port au Port Peninsula, and I believe it was - I am not sure of the community - was it Blue Beach? - I think the hon. member for Port au Port was present at the meeting. MR. HODDER: Jerrys Nose. MR. W. CARTER: Jerrys Nose, yes -where we had a meeting · in that concrete building that is there. HR.. PECKFORD: HR. W.

CARTER: It is not to be confused with Nicks Nose. Not to be cnnfused • . .dth ~Ucks Nose. We had a meeting in the building, that concrete - you know the building - the Parish Priest, I forget his name, was there. We had about seventy-five or eighty or a hundred people from all over the area. Hy hen. colleague, I think, was present. The former member for the district was present, the man who wrote the letter that the hon. gentleman tabled the other day, that obnoxious letter that is not worthy of ~~ answer by the way. He was there, and the fishermen were there.

And it was generally agreed by all concerned that we were on the right course, that maybe we should encourage National Sea to move into the area 3622

Harch 25, 1977 Tape no. 1301 Page 1 - :::.rs HR. • \v. GARTER: and to try to restore order to what up to that time had been a very chaotic situation, the fishermen endeavouring to fish, the co-op gone bankrupt,unable to obtain sufficient funds to reinstate the co-op. As a matter of fact at that meeting - and I think you will have to agree - we did give the co-op, I think, a further -what? - thirty days -was it not? - to find sufficent membership, members and sufficient working capital to get themselves reinstated. But that option was later cancelled at the request of the fishermen of the area.

So we did what ~e thought,and indeed we still think ,was the only sensible thing to do. I feel sorry for :::.rr. Baker. I have talked to the gentleman quite often, but I think we do have an obligation first and foremost to the fishermen. And I am convinced - and if the han. member by the way wants to take responsibility for what I am going to say now, he can. But if he and the fishermen of that area, if they want National Sea out, and if they want Mr. Baker in, that is fine. But it will be their responsibility and not mine,and their decision. MR.

HODDER: Would the han. minister mention what advice they ~ ~ -- ~ --·- ---~=----- are taking? Here is a situation where there is fish, sufficient in that area now, whereby they want two processors. and as well it is the actions by the government, and this is the point I was ~aking, the actions by the Minister of Fisheries of denying, you know, and as you have just admitted, one processor there. You know, that was the policy of your department. But those actions have caused a rift in the fishermen, because there are an al~ul lot of loyal fishermen"to Mr. Baker.

And I think that the department has made a mistake in the way that they have carried out the thing. And I feel that if }tt. Baker had been allowed to carry on his little processing operation, he wou!d not have hurt National Sea as much as he is hurting them now. And that is the feeling of many, many fishermen. And I did not want to bring it up. I waited a year but the thing is that it is growing and grolving and it is getting worse. 3623

Harch 25, 1977 Tape no. 1301 Page 2 - m~v }!R. W. CARTER: Well there is one thing that we have to understand now, that the fishermen of Port au Port, not unlike fishermen in any other part of Ne~~oundland, cannot have their cake and eat it too, and I mean that. With the landings in the area, . ~vhich I have read in the record this morning, 1975, 1.7 million pounds, nothing, hardly enough to keep the smallest type of an operation going for three or four weeks really. As a matter of fact the plant that National Sea , has established, I think they are capable of processing something like 100,000 pounds per day.

Now we have the rig~t under our regulations, and also in a policy that was released by my predecessor, Mr. Crosbie, with respect to the licencing of fish plants, we have a right to refuse the issuance of a licence. If it is found that by issuing an additional licence for an additional plant that it might very well jeopardize an existing plant or make that plant unprofitable, where in fact . " then they cannot afford to pay the -going price for fish to fishermen, then we have a right, and I believe an obligation to protect that plant.

I said on Tuesday that I would prefer to see one successful economically viable plant on the Burin Penin~ula than two or three plants that were bordering on . bankruptcy. And I do not think that would serve anybody's interest, more especially the fisheruen. Now I make the statement that I made earlier that it matters not as far as I am concerned. We are interested naturally in trying to do something on the Port au Port Peninsula. It is one of the most neglected parts of Newfoundland, I am sure. It is one of the very few places where I do not think there is a decent place to tie on a boat up there.

The place has been sadly neglected , - and I say this- mainly by the Small Craft Harbours Division and maybe the provincial government past and p~esent must assume some of the responsibility as well. But eertainly we are trying now. We are trying to build up the economy

March 25, 1977 Tape no. 1301 Page 3 - mw Mr. W. Carter. o£ the area. We are trying t.o interest the National Sea Company in remaining in the area. And I might. tell you that it is not a big money maker for them. It is not a big money maker for National Sea. If they were to apply the hard-nosed rules of business and economics, they would probably pull up stakes today and get .. 3625

~~rch 25, 1977 Tape No. 1302 ~1M- 1 MR. W. CARTER: out. But they are there because, I believe, mainly because we want them to be there and secondly because, as far as I was concerned,the fishermen themselves wanted them to be there. Now if the hon. member, or his colleague from St. George's (~rs. Macisaac) or anybody else, and the fishermen, if they-want Mr. Baker to b~ the operat:>r ~ tl:ere is not room for two operators, with that kind of a landing, Mr. Speaker, there is not enough room for bvo successful operations. May?e one, and even that, even one will not be really successful. ~ffi..

HODDER: I think the minister should have a meeting with the fishermen. I honestly do think that the minister should go out and have a meeting with the fishermen. I will say it again; the thing is festering and festering and I share some of the minister's views, but I do believe that if this . . little man had been left alone,you would not have the problem you have today. I have to say it. ~m. W. CARTER: I will be glad to meet with the fishermen, Nr. Speaker, and I do not think I can be accused since I became minister of hiding away in some ivory tower, or . ' - ---- - - plush office in St. John's. MR.

HODDER: He did not imply that you did. '!:1R. W. CARTER: I have gone to the Province. I have had meetings all over the Province. I have made myself available to all groups of fishermen who have requested meetings. -~d if they want a meeting, fine, I will meet with them the first chance I get, and if they decide that they wa~t to have somebody else there to operate in place of National Sea that is their --~- ·- . decision, it is net mine. But I 'tvarn you now that I think it will be a wrong decision on their part.

I think they will regret the day that they make it impossible for National Sea - and I am not here to defend National Sea,- I hold no special brief for that company. It is a fine company, operating ,...,tC2· .; . .., ~0 0

Narch 25, 1977 Tape No. 1302 ID1 -2 MR.. vl. CARTER: ~vell, making a big contribution to the- economy of our Province, and to Nova Scotia. It matters not, if they want somebody else, fine, that is their decision, and I am prepared to go and listen to them and be governed by what the~ say and what they want. Bu~.certainly I do not think the Department of Fisheries should; __ nor can I,ignore the accusation that ~ve are sort of trying to step on, trying to sit on some poor little fellow who by the way T,vas operating against the law, operating contrary to our regulations at the time.

I do not think we can ignore people who are operating fish plants that are in contravention of the federal and provincial licencing laws, and inspection laws. We cannot do that. We are trying to improve the quality of our fish products. We are competing in the American market ~Yith Iceland and other Scandanavian countries where quality is the key word to their entire operation. We are undertaking certain procedures within the industry now to guard against poor quality fish.

We have a pilot operation unde~vay in Admiral's Beach where we are now attempting to find ways and means to eliminate the use of pitchforks on fish. We are providing ice maldng facilities. 1'le are getting involved in the containerization aspect of the fishery where fish will be transported in future rather than over a dusty road in the back of a truck that may be just dum?ed a load of gravel somewhere or asphalt, as I think often happen, not now but it was happening. The fish will be transported in iced containers, insulated containers in which iced fish would last probably for three or four days. MR.

STRACHAN: Would the minister permit a question? 362?

March 25 , 1977 Tape No. 13 02 ~ . STR..-\CHAN : Is the minister stating then that there is no room for two operators on the Port au Port Peninsula? I mean this could be transferred to other areas of the Province where the landings are not sufficient then.,that only one operator should be in that area and all others should be kept out. MR. W. CARTER : I am merely stating that we do have a responsibility to the fishermen.

The fishermen are our main responsibility, not National Sea or Allan Baker, or Nickerson's, or anybody else, our first consideration must be to ~he fishermen, and if in our view the establishment of too many plants in a cert .ain area, which has a limited catching capability, well then it is not in the best interest of the fishermen to allow too many of these small 01'e-;:-~tors · to establish bu~iness, last for one or two years, in some cases produce a fish that is not up to standard because they do not have the wherewithal to provide the necessary equipment, or 3628 NM - 3

~arch 25, 1977 Tape 1303 IB-1 MF.. 't-1. CARTER: machinery to produce a top quality fish. MR. HODDER: But this man was there ewo years before and I am· told the quality of his fish yms very high. MR. W. CARTER: I am not going to say anyth~g that might have the effect of downgrading the fishermen of the Port au Port Peninsula or the fish that they produce. But I think I have said enough in that respect. But I can tell you now that the quality of fish that is being produced is of a good quality.

It is being handled by a company of some stature in this country of ours, a company that is quite prepared to take a few bad years if they havr to and a few losses,certainly more than some fly-by-night operator can afford. I say fly-by-night that is not ~eant in any derogatory sense. ifuen But, Mr. Speaker, that pretty well sums up the situation in Port au Port. And I repeat I will be very happy to go to Port au Port to meet the fishermen and to have it out with them. And if the member wants another operator - I do not think you can have both.

National Sea will not operate, will not be able to operate with another operator in the area. MR.. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I have never said I wanted another operator. When I spoke in the House I said I was very, very pleased to have National Sea there. The problem is that when the Department of Fisheries decided to push the small operator out the fishermen went for the underdog and it created a tremendous problem. }1R. W. CARTER: Oh, it was the fishermen. MR.

HODDER: You know, I am very pleased National Sea is there but you know there is a situation there now,and I say this very s~ncerely, non-politically, to the minister, that you know perhaps some of the words that he is saying right here should be said to the fishermen on the Peninsula. ¥R • W. CARTER: Well certainly I will have no hesitation in saying it to the fishermen. I tell them now through you that they cannot have their cake and eat it too. They can not run with the hare and hunt with 3629

~arch 25, 1977 Tape 1303 IB-2 MR. W. CARTER: the hounds. They must have one or the other. Because National Sea will not continue to operate - and I do not blame them. When you have got to share, for example, landings of such low quantity, 3 million pounds, when you have to share that with another operator - and I might tell you,by the way,that at least 600,000 pounds of that 3 million pound production in 1976 resulted from the Department of Fisheries boats that were fishing in the area that have since/or at least that will be?leased to T.J. Hardy Company within another few days.

So that catching effort will not be available to the Port au Port Peninsula this coming year. So it is quite possible that in 1977 the landings on the Port au Port Peninsula could be very well below - 3 million pounds. Now if the fishermen want somebody else to look after that, that is fine. That is their decision. I would certainly advise them against it. But again if they want to do it and if the member I wants to that is all right with me.

But I can tell you now that National Sea will not - I repeat - will not remain in the area, will not make any attempt whatever to build up the .fishery on the Port au Port Peninsula,as indeed they are doing now,if they have to compete for that miserly 3 million pounds of fish that is being caught in the entire area or maybe less. So, Mr. Speaker, this bill like I said before 1 it is not really - although I have enjoyed the debate and I think some of the things that have come out needed to be said, had to be said, but certainly it is hardly a world-shattering bill.

It is simply an amendment to the existing Fisheries Act which gives the Province now jurisdiction over fish plants that process fish for export as opposed to the existing act which restricted our jurisdiction to plants and people that were processing fish str:i.ctly for local consumption_. SOME HON. MEJ.o!BEP.S : Hear, hear! On motion a bill, "An Act To Amend The Fish Inspection Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the IVhole House presently by leave. (Bill No. 20) }1otion second reading of a btll, "An Act To Wind Up The Permanent M'arine nisal'lters Fund. II (Bill No. 33)

March 25, 19 77 Tape 1304 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): The bon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, well this bill does exactly what it says. I suppose it is a sort of ~nostalgic event in one sense~ In 1915 the Permanent Marine Disaster Fund was set up,or at least the Act was passed then. My understanding is it was set - ·- up primarily by a group of merchants in St. John's to provide compensation for widows and dependents of sealers who were lost at the ice, but it subsequently was expanded to take in, and properly so, ~dows and dependents of seamen and deep-sea fishermen.

The fund has really nothing to do with government, and never has had anything to do with government or with any government from the -day it was set up in 1915, but obviously the volunteer people who were serving on the executive of the Permanent Marine Disaster Fund needed legislative protection with respect to the administration thereof. The funds came-from private subscription, people who were from time to time encouraged to leave in their wills bequests to the fund which some people did.

Anyway i~ _ha ~ long since declined gradually,over the years.Simply for the purpose of the record may I indicate to the House the names of the current members of the C~ittee; they are the Ron. Chief Justice,Robert S. Furlong. He is Chairman; Mr-. Henry Collingwood, Honourary Treasurer, Mr. Chau~ce! ·Currie and . Mr. Arthurs. Monroe. I should point _ out that Mrs. Florence Chafe, who is Mr. Chauncey --Currie r5 sister~-~~t-~~~for many years as -~ -secretary for the fund, and did a magnificent job in that particular --- job.

I would suspect that the recipients,and there are still some,from that fund are pretty well all constituents of mine. There may be a few from the district of my friend, the member from Burin-Placentia West (Mr. P. Canning), but I believe most, if not all of the recipients now are the next of kin of those who were lost at the Blue Mist and the Blue Wave Disasters, and most of whom live in Grand Bank and Fortune. There may be -

March 25, 1977 Tape 1304 PK - 2 , · ~.-NEARY: How much is left there now? MR. HICKMAN: I am coming to that now, Mr. Speaker. I think I have that here. there: are eighty recipients left so far. There ·-rs·· a total of $3,200 left in the fund, that is to be distributed within the next two weeks, and it will work out to about $40.00 per person, this will be done by an accountant in the Department of Fisheries, and indeed the cheques 7 I believe he says, will be going out within two weeks.

But for its time, back in 1915, some people would be unkind, I suspect, to make some unkind comments about peoples consciences in- the 191~:'• and the 1920's, but be that as it may, for-its time it was the first step toward a recognition of some responsibility on the part of an employer towards the next of kin of employees. Now since then we have had the advent of Workmen's Compensation laws.

One thing that I, if I take credit for anything that I proudly take credit for, was successfully conducting:- wli-i:it--was a one man crusade- to have deep sea fishermen brought within the jurisdiction of the Workmen's Compensation Act and the Workmen's Compensation Board, and this was done by legislation in 1967 or 1968. Merchant· seamen, as hon. members- Will~ know ;_ ~ome under the jurisdiction of the Merchant Shipping Compensation Act. AN RON. MEMBER: MR. HICKMAN: --So-~I ran into a fair amount of opposition, Mr.

Speaker, I may say . in that day because of some· tragic -occurrence to the fund in the Province of Nova Scotia back in the 1930's when - --- -- -------- a_ Lunenburg_ vessel had been lost with all hands and there was great reluctance, but 'anyway that was done. The point I am making is that today. we have Compensation benefits and other benefits.provided by legislation making itmandatory on employers that they provide for the next of kin of their deceased employees. But be that as it may there is no money left. We have

Y.arch 25, 1977 Tape No. 1305 NM- 1 ~·ffi.. RICI01'AN: to keep the - but this discharges the co!!li!littee and I think there is a provision in there that if a will should turn up in the future, which is highly unlikely, with some money in it which was designated for that fund it can be administered by the accountant I referred to. I move second reading. I-l:R. SPEA.lCER : The han. member for Burin - Placentia \-lest. HR. CAL'miNG: I have only got a few remarks because the han. minister has covered the history of it.But just recently I was at a meeting where a lady, a fisherman's wife, from the fishermen's

section of the coast, touched on this and gave u~ ~er position. : She said the disaster fund was coming to an end and that her husband, who is a· shore fisherman, with just one employee- two in a boat - where did they go from there? She claimed that the private insurance companies were urging him to ensure his family, have protection for his family in case anything happened, and for the man who worked with him, which·is an employer and an employee.

She called to our attention that there was no -pr ~te~~tion)or him, "Because if my husband goes out tomorrow and anything happens to him, and the man with him, ,_t;'b.e next morning we are in poverty." So I am just wondering with this coming to an end if the De~artment of Fisheries or if the government or perhaps the unionJif ~~-e.E~ 7~. any consideration being given to this lonely fisherman in the small boat and should ~.;re not begin to think about so~ething to protect him. We have a lot of them. And this is not a worldwide thing you know.

I suppose we have more two man operations, one in some cases, we have people fishing alone, for whom there is no protection as far as I know. She suggested that if t 1 ~ere was any amount worth-while left in the fund that it should go towards some type of insurance for the fishermen. Now this fisherman's '~r33 UQ

Harch 25, 1977 Tape No. 1305 NM .;, 2 - J ~. CA..~ING: wife said that they really could not afford to have the family ensured. There are people in this House who have forgotten more about insurance than I know, although I have a little bit of .experience with it. But I do know that is true.

Per!:J.aps this year the fisberman may do good and he is able to take out a good insurance to cover his family, but the fishery being so unpredictable -·----~ -- - well next year he may have a failure,and the following year, , and then he comes to a point ~.;here he cannot keep ~n paying and the thing is dropped and he is back to where he started from. So I hope that the Minister of Fisheries, I know he will, will give this some thoug~t. But if you are going to talk and not listen to me, he is not going to give it any thought, , if he has not ~iven it up to this moment. Hr.

Speaker, he is not the only one 1:vho is the offender here. Just a few minutes ago there was a very important question asked in this Rouse • . I was trying to listen but most of the government members were out in the corridor, It was about the f~shery. Most of them come from fishing districts and they were out making so much noise that the few of us who were interested in the fishermen in Ne•.Yfoundland could not hear what the hon. minister, -.;.;ho is interested in the fishermen in Newfoundland~was saying. I wanted to hear every word he said. This is important I can assure you.

We have got thousands and thousands of: motorboat fishermen, trap fishermen, call them what you like, shore fishermen who have got no protection for their families. We have more,I suppose, than _any _ Q~her Province in Canada and it is very important. So my suggestion and my contribution to this as it goes out, -.;.;hich was a wonderful organization, it is going out and where do we go from there?

I hope somebody perhaps can give an opinion ~vho comes from a fishing district. ~fuen something comes up about the fishery it just makes me sick to see the Rouse clearing out, because I can tell you the fishery of Newfoundland is the future

March 25, 1977 Tape No . 1305 ~ - 3 of Newfoundland. He can get what oil we like and we can do what 'tve like with our forestry. but my candid ' opinion if the fisheries or the fishermen of Newfoundland are neglected and the fisheries goes down, Newfoundland is gone, take it from me. AN RON. ME!1BER: Hear! Hear! MR. . SPE.<\KER : The hon. member for Fortune-Hermitage. MR. J. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I would like to add a few words of comment on this,much the same - -- --- -- --·--- I 363~

:!-'.Larch 25, 1977 Tape no. 1306 Page 1 - ms Mr. J. ~Jinsor. line of thought -~s th~ Vei1~!ib~e - -~~~~gti~_ of mine. It __ is __ a good thing, I think, that the ~finister of Justice is trying to w~nd up this fund. It would be up for pension in a couple of year's time anyway. It is sixty-two years old, and it has outlived -well, it is used up. ~here is only $3,200 left in it, and I think it will not serve a very useful purpose from here on in unless there is more money goes into it as the minister said. I am sure this particular fund has been for a number of years very dear to the minister's heart.

I remember it well. I think the most active time it ever was was during the tidal wave, if I am not mistaken,when a mutual friend of ours was then the ~iinister of Marine and Fisheries, and that fund then was contributed to rather heavily, and it has no~v been used up. I, like my colleague from Placentia West - ~1R. CANNING: Burin - Placentia West. HR. J. WINSOR: Burin - Placentia 'ivest - I am sorry, Sir. - I think the inshore fishermen, and this will obviously come under the Minister of Fisheries's purview, have no protection whatever. They have not been able to afford life insurance.

They have no pension scheme as such, no life insurance, no indemnity, short-term or long-term for the simple reason that they are self-employed. The trawlermen are all taken care of, and they have a ~eal good scheme, but how about the inshore fisherman 1.;rho is out there by himself, in many cases fishing cross-handed, even if he is -f:tjli:d..-ltg-Wi:til '-a. ~e~ a docy ma.~e~ as they cal] them, one of them can go overboard and leave a family destitute, absolutely nothing.

And I suggest that with the closing out of this PermanenC'Mar~ne D"ls-aster-Fund~ this might be the right time to move the pOi·rers that be. .A.ll right, they are self-employed. But I believe that most of the inshore fishermen now have a co-operative or the Fishermen's Union. Somebody should take up the c'udgel for them and set up some sort of a fund, 3636

Harch 25, 1977 Tape no. 1306 Page 2 - mw Hr. J. Winsor. an indemnity, an insurance policy, a life insurance policy would be the best possible, a blanket policy of some kind. This is for the insurance people to design. And I am sure that the }linister of Fisheries, and the }linister of Justice could get their heads together and put some real action behind this sort of thing. And 'it would be the final stroke as far as fishermen are concerned, because I am sure there are thousands of fishermen around this Island who are in the same boat.

And if you canvassed all these fishermen, I woul? bet out of the thousands, if you found one hundred with a life insurance policy that is about as far as it would go. I, therefore, support the bill to wind up the Permanent Marine Disasters Fund, but I would like some . tho 'ught to be given to substituting something else to take its place, especially as far as the inshore fishermen are concerned. SOHE RON. }1ElfBERS : Hear, hear! NR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir. MR..

SIHHONS : I, like my two colleagues Who just preceded me in this debate, I represent part of the Province -where the emphasis is very much on fishing. as it is,to an extent, in the case of the hon. minister's district who spoke in this debate. Now I know of two cases in my district where people are among the eighty or so recipients to whom the minister referred. \·Je recognize and - f!'J_!Y. -~dorse ·what _· the - government is doing here. Obviously since this idea was first put into legislation in 1915, I believe, a lot of circumstances have changed.

And as the minister so well pointed out, Workmen's - Compensation then not even an idea)has since become a fairly workable reality. It has its limitations as does any public programme or-governme~t - - - 3637

}'larc h 25, 1977 Tape no. 1306 Page 3 - mw }fr . Simmons . programme or co-operative type programme. I want to put a question to the minister. Re may have answered it in part, but if he would, I will have save my question until he - MR. W. CARTE~: :_I am so~!~_: MR. SIMHONS: He has just fulf~lled a li,felong dream to be to tne right of the meiii.ber· for Green &:y (Mr. Peckford). 3638

Y..1arch 25, 1977 Tape 1307 Page 1. MR.SIMMONS: ~~- Speaker, I just want to put a question to the minister which I believe he may have allu~ed to already ~ Would he indicate in closing debate just how adequate the provisions of Workmen's Compensation are in terms of the need that was looked after here~ I know the dollar amount is very small.

But my real question is are there exceptions? he· there people in the categories who were taken care of in some _degree by this _legislarion we are no~.r going to repeal) are ~there people in that category in the category of the eighty, for example, who may not be covered under Workmen's Compensation for some particular reason that I do not know because I am not at all familiar with the workings or the kinds of coverage you can get under Workmen's Compensation)Mr.

Speaker~ I am not suggesting that, if there are exceptions,that that is a reason to retain the legislation, :. ~ecati"se obviously ~:_ what was it a hundred dollars a year, somethingl-that itself, - -~~- - - · the minister pointed out,probably had a lot of financial impact on the family budget in 1915. It does not have an awful lot in today's dollars. But I raise the question because if there are exceptions some thought may need to be given to so.me kind of assistance, not only for the one or two of those eighty who may be involved)but I am looking down the road ..

Ar~ there going to be other cases where people, by vi~tue of some peculiar set -of circumstances, are __ left literally holding the bag, financially, because of some accident involving the death of a relative, . and as I say, because of some particular narrow or unique set of circumstances that · that individual cannot hope to get any compensation from the Workmen's Compensation Boardr ~hat is basically the question I want to ask. Perha~s the minister would be good enough to reply to it in closing the debate.! would be most appreciative. ~q~-. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. Y..~ •• Mt~PHY: ~r.

Speaker, I would just like to add one or two words in reference mostly to the bon. minister's opening remarks. It is a kind of nostalgia as far as this ·thing 'is concerned>the PMDF. I would 3639

March 25, 1977 Tape 1307 Page 2. MP .• Ml~YHY: like to in my own way pay some tribute to the Currie family and the Dailv News,I think;who have carried this thing on, and when we were growing up there was one t~ing we always looked up in the Daily News and it was link number so and so and the donations to the PMDF. It was.,as someone~ said,it was_ only a token but it was Ft least a sort of a widow's mite. It was a difference betveen having nothing and having the fe~.., dollars.

I am quite interested in the remarks of.____the gentleman, very much concerned with the welfare of fishermen generally and particularly with survivors. I think we are in a ~rorld today where the dollar, you know, does not mean too much in a sense, the dollar does not.

But no'l-r V.Te are r;etting into the thousands of dollars and I would just like to bring a little message to these people, these members, that they might consult with their ov."!l constituents, the fishermen. -it brings me back many years when I was in the insurance business ·· where the"Lon~shoremen's Union ,who had quite a membership at the time,had a mortality fund of something like $200 or $250, you know ~mich would not pay for a wreath or the candles that are burnt at wakes. I was successful in concluding with them a benefit fund, group life insurancewhere there were some 1150 members at that time.

That was quite an organization at that time. S9 I would suggest to these members that they might talk with some of their constituents and through NAFU, I think we "~-.•ill cal1_1 it ,could arrange for this because I know when I worked with a ce!tain insuranee company I th~nk the Blue Wave~Disaster was one of the claims we had at that time who did have a group insurance,and I remember lo7hat we had to go' through because this particular ship , I think the hon.membermight remember 1had left point A, but was never reported afterwards. I do not know if it lvas the Blue Wave or on~ of these.

It took some time to settle the claims because there was no proof of death at the time because there was no death certificates issued . I remember what we had to go through 'tvith newspaper clippings and this type of thing and build up 3640

March 25, 1977 Tape 1307 Page 3. ~ .• MURPHY: a - ~~~- ~~at there we~e ~ctually ~ome cl~~~ there~ So in this world today where the need is so great for survivor benefits~ I am very much ±mpressed with the remarks passed by the gentlemen who are concerned vitally with fishermen, and that some efforts would be made. I am sure this House would be only too happy to assist in any way the union ,concerned or the people concerned and anything that we can do I am sure to do it.

But I think it nas got to emanate from the people themselves and particularly the responsibility • I would say this,and I do not mean it in any other way,but to perhaps get the members to lead the people into this thinking where we all work together I think we can do an awful lot more than everybody going off in all directions. So, Sir, again, I would like to pay tribute to the Currie family and to the Daily News for carrying this thing on for so many years and to congratulate anybody concerned because it did serve a need at the time which today perhaps is just, you know, that does not mean that much. 3641

~1arch 25, 1977 Tape 1308 ~f- 1 MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. the minister speaks now - Does the hon. member for St. Georges wish to speak? MRS. MACISAAC: I feel that I should make my feelings known on this since I am from an area where we have inshore fishermen and to my knowledge most of them are fishing cross handed. We maybe have one or two in a boat and that is about it. I have to plead ignorance as far as the Marine Diaster Fund is concerned. I am not that well up on the Marine Diaster Fund . .,and I probably should . be but I am not. I do not know just exactly what it covered.

I do not know if there are any benefits available to dependents of people in this category who are fishing in small boats along the coast in my area. I know that they are not in any union or anything of that sort,and I am concerned about it because only last year there were two men drowned on their way back from their nets. One man left a family of nine children. ~ow I do not know you knm11f if he qualified or the dependents qualified · ~or . benef it~ from this fund or not. I do not think they did.

As I said,I am completely ignorant of this fund and as to whether or not the small fishermen, the inshore fishermen benefits from it. I hope when the minister speaks that the will fill us in,or at least fill me in,on just what benefits are available to people of this sort. }ffi. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. }ffi. 1~RY: Mr. Speaker, I must apologize to the House for being out during most of this debate but there were matters of urgent public importance that we wanted to discuss and hold a post-morte~ on and so forth.

So I missed quite a bit of the debate, Sir, although I had one ear cocked to what was going on in the House while I was listening to the various comments of members on both sides of the House. Mr. Speaker, wha·t we are doing here we are winding up thePerma~~nt ~~rine Diaster Fund,and the question that I want to put to the minister is what are we replacing it with? 3642

Harch 25, 1977 Tape 1308 JM - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my hon. friend from St. Georges raised a couple of interesting questions there a few moments ago about whether or not small boat fishermen are included under any - Do they have any coverage in the event of diaster or loss of life or accident? Well, Sir, a few years ago the government in its wisdom amended the \yorlanan' s Compensation Act to include the inshore fishermen. My understanding, Mr.

Speaker, is that the inshore fishermen have not really taken advantage of the coverage that they have been given under the Workman's Compensation Act,and they have not been paying - the skippermen of the longliners and so forth have not been paying their compensation premiums or payments,I guess 1 premiums to the Workman's Compensation Board. ~. SMALLWOOD: Assessment. MR. NEARY: Assessment.

They somehm.;r or other, Sir, have - I do not why but I would say the record,· the track record of payment has been very, very small indeed and somehow or other the message has not come through as loud and as clear as it should to the longliner operators that they should cover their crewmen. I believe I mentioned in the House before where one gentleman up in the Bay St.

George Area .as a matter of fact had his arm torn off with a winch,and I do not know what the outcome of it was but I told him to apply for Workman's Compensation anyway because they were covered even though the skippermen had not paid the assessment. So, Mr. Speaker, Workman's Compensation I suppose is the right avenue to take. The setting up of this Permanent Marine Diaster Fund in the beginning I believe was a result of a surplus that was left in the Newfoundland Savings Bank. Is that how - No, it did not get in here that way. How did it get in in the first place? MR.

HICI01'.AN: In 1915 by a bunch of Water Street merchants with respect to the loss of life in the seal fishery. 3643

• March 25, 1977 Tape 1308 JM- 3 MR. NEARY: I see. Well, then there were no funds from the Newfoundland Savings Bank ever put into it. I do not re.li)ember what happened to these funds they had down there when they closed out the Newfoundland Savings Bank. Did that go to - MR. HICKMAN: Was that not ·that fuUd-'that was raised during the war by when you setl so many yaffles of fish? MR. NEARY: Well, I do not know but anyway it does not make any difference. But the thing is, Sir, that : ' "'C44 vo ------- --~

March 25, 1977 Tape 1309 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: we should,if we are· going to close it out, we should now take a good hard look at the Workmen's Compensation Act to see if it can be amended to include in the Workmen's Compensation coverage disasters that may take place in the Province. For instance, Sir, the spirit of the Workmen's Compensation Act at the moment does not cover major disasters like the one in St.

Lawrence, like the potenti~l disaster in Baie Verte, the potential disaster in Labrador City, the Workmen's Compensation is not geared up and could ,not withstand three or four or five major disasters say in a matter of a short time. There is a disaster fund but I am told that it is not adequate, Sir, to withstand two or three major disasters like the ones that I have just mentioned. And, Mr.

Speaker, because the fishery, because a· marine industry, every;hing associated with the ocean there is always a hazard involvedJthat I believe that the time has come when we should take a look at the Workmen's Compensation Act to see it we can beef it up, if that is the right word, Sir, and to have the Workmen's Compensation Board include in their disaster fund any major marine . disasters that take place in the future.

That is all I have to say, but I am not going to prolong the debate but I think it is a very valid point, Sir, and if we are going to take something away, wipe it out,obviously it has not been used all that much in recent years, although I believe it was used in the case of my bon. friend's own district, was it not? MR. HICKMAN: Jh,yes! The Blue Mist and the Blue Wave. MR. NEARY: The Blue Wave and the Blue Foam,was it? Where there two? Just one. AN RON. MEMBER: .The Blue Wave MR.. RICKMAN: Two • MR. NEARY: The Blue Wave disater • . There were two,! thougt? MR. HICKMAN: Yes,the Blue Mist and the Blue Wave. MR.

NEARY: The Blue Mist and the Blue ' Wave. It was used then. And so I want the minister to tell us what happens in, you know, · the future if we have a disaster of that calibre, will it be covered '"'c4-~u·~

March 25, 1977 Tape 1309 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: by Workmen's Compensation or will we just have to set up an emergency fund at that time? MR.. SPEAKER: debate. AN RON . MEMBER: MR.. SPEAKER: Relations. MR. ROUSSEAU: If the hon. minister speaks now he closes the Oh, 'Joe' '. The hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial I am sorry. Just a ~ouple of words because the concept of the Workmen's Compensation was brought up,and give me three minutes? MR.. HICKMAN : MR. ROUSSEAU: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes. Could I? The bon. member has forty-five minutes. You drafted it. No,three minutes will do.

A number of hon. members brought up the question of the Worlanen' s Compensation Board and its involvement here. The Worlanen's Compensation Board now covers any group of three or more fishermen, but the skippers normally,as the bon. member from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) said,are certainly sporadic in referring any assessments to the Workmen's Compensation Board.

So what the department has been doing in conjunction with the Workmen's Compensation Board over the past while since my colleague th~ now Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, and after he left continuing in the department the concept of the fish companies making contributions on behalf of the fishermen. Now the assessments there of course would - the concept would - the discussions of course are centered around the companies paying the total assessments, and this is something that of course they are not entirely pleased with, because the magnitude of the payments and the assessments are quite high.

We have held discussions with them. I think it is 4 per cent they have to pay of the payroll. Right now we are in the process of talking -we have talked to the companies, we have their reaction, we have been attempting to get in touch with the President of the Fishermen's 3646

March 25, 1977 Tape 1309 PK - 3 Mr. Rousseau: Food and Allied Workers Union to talk about it. The department has held meetings with the Workmen's Compensation Board. And it is possible that the assessments to the fishing companies may be able to be reduced from the 4 per cent on to a lower figure, which may make it easier. Now the companies are, I think, suggesting that the fishermen pay a part, or the employees pay a part~and of course if that situation occurs this will be the only ~ravine~ in Canada where employees contribute to Workmen's Compensation.

And as a matter of princ.ip~e now that we would like to break new ground in some areas, that is one certainly that we would not take too kindly to in pressing on new ground, We feel that it is an employer's prerogative and responsibility to pay into the Workmen's Compensation Board, but as we say there is a possibility that the 4 per cent amount might be able to be reduced by the Workmen's Compensation Board, and hopefully we will get ~ogether with the union in the next little while and get their reaction to what we have now, l!_e -may be able to come up with something in ~espect to the Workmen~s Compensation Board and the actual owners of the fish plants in respect to a levy of less than 4 per cent, and hopefully something that both sides could live with, and hopefully something that would not include the employee paying .< the cost for his t·mrkmen' s -compensation which is something that is done nowhere ·else in Canada. 3647

March 25, 1977 Tape no. 1310 Page 1 - HS }!R. SPEAKER: If the hon. minister speaks now he closes the debate. - -·- ------ The hon. }tinister of Justice. MR. HICK}~~: ¥~. Speaker, there have been a couple of questions raised, and I thank Your Honour for allo"tving hon. gentlemen and myself some latitude because the bill is a very simple one. May I first point out that this bill does not take anything away from anyone. It is simply a bill to wind up a fund that no longer exists,or certainly will not exist for more than two weeks, a fund in v1hich there is now but $3,200 left. It is not, I repeat, public monies.

It has never been public monies, never been any government input into it since the fund -v;ras created in 1915 by a group of merchants. The $3)200 that is left in the fund will be distributed, as I say, within the next two weeks and will work out . to about ,$40 per recipient. Now the matters raised with respect to Workmen's Compensation have been very adequately dealt with by my ---~~ colleague, the Hinister of ?·~_npo~~~ - - and Industrial Relations. The hon. gentleman from LaPoile (Hr. Neary) raised the question of the _.,.. __ --- -------=-:7------ -- ·-- ------- ----- ----Blue Hist and !he Blue 1\Tav~ - ~ -.

At t.f!e ~~e __ tP,e Blue _Mist .and t,he Blue Wave were lost,the Workmen's Compensation Act of Newfoundland did not apply to deep-sea fishermen. They were lost in the early 1960's, and they came under the old Workmen's Compensation Act of Newfoundland, but four sections had been preserved when the new act came in in 1951. And that act imposed upon the vessel o~~ers the obligation to carry insurance or to pay workmen's compensation themselves if there was a loss of life or injury to a deep-sea fisherman in the course of his employment.

The result was that the dragger owners and vessel o-vmers carried their owr. insurance with P and I Insurers It was a very modest - it was a maximum of $6,000 for death and- I should know this, because I was very much involved in it as a young lawyer, and I was very much involved in both the Blue }list a~d Blue Wave claims - I think it was around $4,000 in the case of injury. It was a mere pittance compared to the - and it offended the principle of v10rkmen' s compensation as contained in the \·lorkmen' s --------- --·------ - ---- --- ---------Compensation Act. 3648

March 25, 1977 Tape no. 1310 Page 2 - Y.:.S Mr. Hic'la:D.an . The reason why deep-sea fishermen were not brought in in the beginning was a very historial one, and one that I thought was wrong, and I say it modestly, I was subsequently vindicated.

The Workmeu's Compensation Board of Nova Scotia in the 1930's had jurisdiction over deep-sea fishermen, and there was one, if not two, disasters in the mid-1930's out of Lunenburg where one or two bankers were lost with all hands, and it totally wiped out, not only the Disaster Fund of the Horkmen's Compensation Board of Nova Scotia, but I believe it ate very heavily into their funds generally. And, of course,these funds are all trust funds. Workmen's Compensation money is not government monies.

They are monies assessed against employers and the Workmen's Compensation Board must administ~r~these trust funds very carefully, and government --- --·- - very properly should not and does not have any say in the administration of Workmen's Compensation funds, because it is not our money. In any event the Legislature of Nova Scotia in the 1930's amended their act and took deep-sea fishermen from outside the jurisdiction of their board. - -in-1949 - ~ 1950 the government of the day set up a-committee, chaired by Mr.

Kevin Barry, now His Honour Judge Barry, to look at labour laws in Newfoundland and Workmen's Compensation laws. And of my own initiative~and simply because I am from Grand Bank and I have seen more disaster at sea than I would like to remember, and certainly, I suspect, more than anyone in this hon. House, I started my writing to that committee,asking .and appearing before them~that deep-sea fishermen be included within the scope of the '.Jorlcrnen' s Compensation Act and brought within the jurisdiction of the board. 3649

March 25, 1977 Tape no~ 1310 Page 3 - mw Mr. Rickman. But there was a tremendous resistance to it; resistance on the part o.f government, you know, a genuine resistance bas .ed on fear, always reverting back to the Nova Scotian situation; resistance from industry, a resistance from the board itself after they were created, and it; was left out. ,

March 25, 1977 Tape 1311 JM - 1 MR. HICKMAN: I am sure I must have written a dozen letters between 1950,when that act was passed and until I finally became a member of this hon. House,asking them to be changed. I always got the same- There were two reasons. One was a deep-sea fisherman,and I am sure the hen. member from Hermitage will remember ·this 1 a deep-sea fisherman was not an employee. He was a joint venturer therefore not being an employee within the concept of Workman's Compensation. He was excluded. My answer to that was that you can get around that if you want to.

There was certainly an employer-employee relationship there that could be legislated on. Secondly,it was a tremendous risk .we ~ere running. But the answer to that again was very obvious that in the days of the Lunenburg tragedies you had twenty-six men to a banker. ,There~were no navigational aids other than a compass and a log and a sounding lead and they were wooden ships.

Today we have highly equipped vessels, steel ships and that whilst we had two tragedies in a short period of time by and large they are much safer than were the old banking schooners and also they carry a crew of about half the number that a banker carried. The "resistance was tough but eventually~ was here he would have to admit that it was pretty much a condition of precedent on my part of entering political life that that had to go into the Workman's Compensation Act. We had some great, great arguments over this. Yes? MR. J. WINSOR:" ------· --· - .

Sir, you referred to them as co-adventurers and they were at that time,but now they are paid a?er diem a commission, therefore they are not any longer self-employed. MR. HICKMAN: That is quite right. I agree with the han. member from .F.ort~ne._Bay-Hem.itage,but this legislation came in before the per diem and in 1967 the act was amended,but the resistance even 365:1

March 25, 1977 Tape 1311 JM- 2 MR.. HICKMAN : then from the board,who were going back all the time to their statistics, to the Diaster Fund, the amount that was in it, the actuarial assessments done by the insurance industry,particularily Lloyd's,indicated we were running a great risk. Mr. Clyde Wells was then Minister of Labour,and I am sure that he will agree that he was not too much impressed with the position I was taking at that time because it was running in the face of all his actuarial findings,but it was done.

The simple fact is that fortunately there has been no call upon the Diaster Fund and I hope there never will be. Secondly,never worried about I am sure the bon. member from Fortune Bay-Hermitage will remember they were all so worried about the type of injury fishermen have of fish bones and that sort of thing and infections in their hands. Well none of that has imposed any great administrative responsibility upon the board. So deep-sea fishermen are fully covered now under the Workman's Compensation Board.

The Permanent Marine Diaster Fund which was,as I say, a voluntary thing and is now gone, _there~ was some money went to -- the survivors of the Blue Wave and the Blue Mist i _ They also received that benefit under the old act and there was also a very strong and generous support from the people of Newfoundland. We had these two campaigns and raised a great deal of money which was invested. In f~ct,I introduced a bill in this House in 1966 again something like this incorporating the group who administer the Blue Mist-Blue Wave Fund which is in the hands of some insurance company and I have forgotten which one now.

But anyway I repeat it is the end of an era. The people who have volunteered over the years to do this work, and I know }1r. Currie and Mrs. Chafe, the last two or three years the calls that they received~and they both retired and the calls were coming to their homes, t~ey bad to write out all, this by hand, make out all the enteries by hand but they were determined to do this and they did it and now we 3652

March 25, 1977 Tape 1311 JM- 3 MR. RICKMAN: see the end of it because the money is all gone and the end of an era that those who refer to iron men and - what is it? - wo.~~en ships and iron men must have nostalgia when they ~ee this happening~but on the other hand there is nobody in this hon. House who would ever want to see a return to the kind of risks that were so courageously f.aced by the people for whom this fund was originally created - and hardship. I move s.econd reading. 3653

}".arch 25, 1977 Tape no. 1312 Page 1- ¥...S On motion, a bill, "An Act To Wind Up The Permanent Harine Disaster Fund, 11 read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the ~~ole House, presently by leave. (Bill No. 33). MR. HICKHAN: Order 12 - Bill No. 32. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Fishing Industry Advisory Board Act, 1975." (Bill No. 32). HR. CHAIR..'!IfAN: The han. Minister of Fisheries. }ffi. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this amendment is to broaden the powers of the Fishing Industry Advisory Board.

At the present time that board does have the right to gather information from fish processing companies in the conduct of their operations. But the amendment will now broaden the authority of the board where they will have the right to obtain information from others involved in the fishing industry. Of course, the reason for that, I think, is quite obvious, that in recent weeks and months we have heard a lot of discussion w·ith respec::t ~o the cost of operating in the fishing industry, the cost of operating longliners, the price of gear and so on.

The board does not have any jurisdiction right nor any power indeed to investigate or to look into the cost or the records of companies involved in the supplying or manufacturing of fishing gear, engines or other equipment that is deemed to be necessary in the conduct of the fishing industry. He believe this amendment fs necessary 11 because the House might recall some time ago, when we announced our new gear subsidy programme, at the same time we announced that we would have the Advisory Board look into the prices that were being charged by fishing gear supply houses, the fishing gear supplied to fishermen.

And that is only one activity, ·of course in \oJhich the board is involved. I look upon this board as being a very, verv important arm of the Provincial Department of Fisheries. 3654

Harch 25, 1977 Tape no. 1312 Page 2 - mw HR. W. CARTER. It has a very important role to play in assisting the industry and the fishermen themselves. The hon. House might recall a little less than a year ago when an impasse was reached pretty well between the crab fishermen and the crab plant operators with respect to the prices that the fishermen would get. The fishermen were demanding one price and the operators _were offering another one.

And I believe there was probably a two or three or four cent a pound difference between the price being offered and -----·-- -the price that the fishermen wanted -and-- indeed -sa -id - - th~y_ nee_4eg __ _ in order to stay afloat. The Advisory Board, at my request, stepped in and undertook a study of the crab processing sector, and as ;;.;ell investigated the cost to fishermen, the:. cost of catching crab. And as an interim measure we did agree to pay· a two cent a pound subsidy to the