Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL AS$EMBLV OF NEWFOUN·PLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, MARCH 27, 1975 SPEAKER : THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Numl;>et 21

March 27, 1975 Tape No. 812 NM - 1 The House met at 10:00 a.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable,Member for Bell Island, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honourable Minister of Social Services, Sir, and I would like to ask the minister if the government has yet taken a decision on whether or not they are going to provide financial assistance to the Teach-A-Tot Centre? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Social Services. HON. A. J. MURPHY, Minister of Social Services: Yes, we have taken a decision on that. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary, when ~ill the minister be making his decision known to the Teach-A-Tot people? MR. MURPHY: I do not know, Mr. Speaker, who the honourable member represents but we are meeting daily almost with the committee. As a matter of fact there is a committee down now with my Deputy Minister, but I did not hear the-honourable Member for Bell Island's name mentioned so I will deal with the commit,tee ,and then when the discussions are through 1 then I can made a statement to any question in the House. MR.

NEARY: Supplementary to the minister, would the minister indicate to the House whether the financial assistance will be an across the board grant or will it be based on need. MR. MURPHY: No, I think it will be under the table, Sir. MR. ROBERTS: It probably will be. MR. NEARY: It would not be the first time, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS: We will take the minister's word for once. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: The minister told the truth for once in his life. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 2428

March 27, 1975 Tape No. 812 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the ~linister of Social Services care to indicate to the House, Sir, whether the request from the Funeral Association for an increase in rates has been gTanted? MR. MURPHY: I did see some correspondence on it, Sir, Whether it has been granted or not I do not know but we have been looking at the thing very closely, Sir, and I think it was last year we brought in some new rates because we wanted to remove the stigma that was attached to the pauper's funeral that existed under the previous administration. But there is a request, Sir, for an increase.

But has it happened yet? I really do not know because we have not had a chance to consider it yet. MR. DOODY: The honourable Member for Harbour Grace could inform you. MR. MURPHY: The President is not in the House is he? MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Sir, would the minister please tell the House whether or not either he or his Director of Air Services authorized a special trip of the Churchill Falls jet to transport the Premier to Halifax enroute to Bermuda. MR SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. HON. J.

ROUSSEAU• Minister of Transportation and Communications: Mr. Speaker, the Air Services Division has no authority, jurisdiction or dispatching ability in respect to CFL. The Churchill Falls jet is purely under the sole jurisdiction of the Churchill Falls Power Corporation, not the Department of Transportation and Communications. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am dissastisfied with that answer, Sir, and I wish to debate that matter at the late show this afternoon at 5:30. MR. ROUSSEAU: Excuse me, Mr. Speaker, may I on a point of order? You know we do not have any jurisdiction on it 1I say.

If you are talking about the Department of Transportation and Communications you do not have jurisdiction. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, somebody in this honourable House, Sir, 2429

March 27, 1975 Tape No. 812 NM - 3 has to be responsible for that jet. And the Minister of Mines and Energy is not here, Sir, the most logical person - MR. ROUSSEAU: I will do it. I will do it. AN HON. MEMBER: Ask the Acting Premier. MR. NEARY: Well,I ask the Acting Premier if he authorized it. MR. ROUSSEAU: I just want to make sure you understand the point I made. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Fisheries. HON. J. CROSBIE, Minister of Fisheries: Mr.

Speaker, no one in the government authorized or did not authorize or had anything to do with the matter because the CTI.Co jet is owned and operated by CFLCo. and presl.Dllably if their jet was used for any purposes authorized by the Board of Directors or the Managing Director or somebody - MR. ROBERTS: We know that that is a subterfu~e . MR. CROSBIE: That is not a subterfuge. We do not own it. We own two-thirds of it. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am not satisfied with either one of these answers, Sir, and I wish to debate the matter at 5:30 during the late show.

MR. MURPHY: Will that be two debates? MR. ROBERTS: Hopefully. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon. MR. ROBERTS: He asked would there be two debates and I said hopefully. MR. NEARY: No, that is three now. We have another one for Pooh down here, the teddy bear. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! 2430

March 27, 1975 i-m.. SeEAKER: MR. NEARY: HR. SPEAKER: Tape 813 (Morning) The honourable Hember for Bell Island is - Inaudible. PK - 1 Order, please'. The honourable Member for Bell Island 1 or any other honourable member for that matter)should refer to another member in his rightful capacity or constituency and I would ask them to do so. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Your Honour. Sir, I have another question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Would the minister care to indicate to the !louse, Sir, whether he or his Director of Air Services authorized a trip to Port au Choix on St.

Patrick's Day, March 17 of the King Air CF-GNL and then arranged for a helicopter to take Captain Piercey out to the Lady Anderson II to bring flippers back for officials of the government? AN HON. MEMBER: !IR . ROUSSEAU: no idea, no idea. MR. NEARY: You MR . ROUSSEAU: I AN HON. ME}IBER: HR. SPEAKER: That is twofold. I have to take that question as notice. I have will find it is true. hope not. Inaudible. Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Would the minister undertake to get me the information, and to also let me know who uent on that trip, who accompanied Captain Piercey?

And would the minister also find out for the House the cost of this trip? Who paid for it? Who the flippers were for? AN PON. MEMBER: For what department? t!R . NEARY: Would the minister also find out if either he or his officials or the Director of Air Services authorized for the same gentleman a flight of the government aircraft to fly Captain Piercey and other people and their families to St. Pierre on a holiday? MR. ROUSSEAU: One second - what day? The same date? MR. NEARY: No, that is not the same date. I am not sure of the 2431

... March 27, 1975 Tape 813 (Horning) 1'K -- 2 dates on that one, but I know the date of the flipper pie deal was St. Patrick's Day, March 17. AN HON. MEMBER: That was a good day. MR. NEARY: It was recently, the trip to St. Pierre was recently, and I think Captain Piercey was accomi:>anied by Mr. Frank Spencer, the Chairman of the Newfoundland Development Loan Corporation. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder lf the Acting l'rcml~r could tell us how many shut-downs Price (Nfld.) are going to have in this calendar year? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Hinister of Fisheries. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, I mean this is an extraordinary question to ask the government,how many shut-downs Price may have during the year? You know, we hope that they will not have any more shut-downs than what has been announced on the radio, that it is likely to have a two week shut-down in July. But quite obviously, AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: if they had any more shut-downs other than that it will all depend on what the market conditions are. As far as we know they are contemplating one period of clown time during the coming year.

Whether or not there will be more, of course, they would let us know in advance,the same time as they would let the union know or anyone else know. But it would all depend on the market, and whether the market improves or does not. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Hon. Ninister of Justice, Sir, concerning the dog situation in Newfoundland. Would the minister aare to tell the llouse who or what enforces the dog regulations in this Province?

In view of the fact that so many children have been mauled ir. recent months by dogs, and so many animals have been attacked by dogs, and the dog menace has become so much trouble - HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Would the minister tell - MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! The honourable Member for Bell Island is now proceedinf, to make a speech. He is out of order. MR. NEARY: Well,would the minister care to tell us who enforces ?A.3?

::arc h 27, 1975 Tape S13 (Morning) PK - 3 the dor, regulations in this Province? llON. T. A. HICKMNI {MINISTER OF JUSTICE): The honourable gentleman for Bell Island,! must not e , his llar lt 1s considerably worse t han his !>ite, !Ir . Sneaker . N_• HON • HEHDF.R: A?: 11mt: HBmEr:.: :m. !\!£!QIAN: He is l ike a dog in beat . Inaudihle. The enforcement of the Dog :Act which is a pr ovincial statu t e is carried out hy the R .C. lt . P . in consultation with the m11nicipalitics.

And from time to time I have received complaints from a particula r council that they would like a more r igid enforcement of the Dog Act . And whenever 1 receive such a complaint the necessary instruction is issued co the R. C.M.P. and they act upon it very pr omptl)I . At the same time I shollld advi se the House that I have not seen any r epor t s coming in to my departm ent of the mauling of many childr en in ~cwfoundland by dogs . Ther e vas a p rogra.mme on one of the television s:ations recorded in Bay Roberts wher e a 2433

March 27, 1975 'rape Rlli rn-1 lady had indicated that one particularly ferocious dog had harassed a child and that both she and the child were now quite concerned ah out the dog. But, as far as receiving complaints of that sort of incident I am not aware of any coming into my department. Ilut the RC:MP outside the c1 ty are given the responsH il i. ty to enforce the Dog Acf, outside the C:i ty of St. John's. MR. SPF.AK.ER: The honourar]e member for llerm1tage. MR. SI~1ONS: I have a question for the Yinister of Forestry and Agriculture. I wonder would the minister indicate whether Mr.

Ed Ralph is still acting in any consultant capacity with the government, Mr. Erl Ralph? l{ON. H. COLLINS ('1INISTER OF FORES'l'RY ANn ACRICULTUFE): Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, and certainly not for our department. I do not know of any - I cannot speak for any other department, hut I do not think he is for any department. MR. SIYMONS: Could the Minister of Forestry indicate what the policy is on those forest access roads, specifically who controls the access to these access roads?

Who is permitted on them and does government or perhaps the minister's department administer the control and determine who can use these roads or is it a public road and every citizen's concern? l-fF. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, since the Forest Access Road Programme is a relatively new programme, we have not really defined that policy in terms of usage for additional purposes or other purposes other than to - "R. SIMMONS: I am thinking in terms of use for forest access purposes 7 mind you. MR. COLLINS: Well, for forest access purposes 1 generally speaking, Mr.

Speaker, when an access road is built it is built for a specific purpose, generally for a specific company or individual or whoever it miRht he 1if they are utilizing the forest in that particular area. 'l'o my knowledRe, they would have some control on the road. But, as I said, jt is an area which we are lookinR at very carefully in terms of bejng able to derive some other henefits. Chances are we will permit carins to be built on them or permit people to use them for other purposes. It is up in the air at the time hecause it is a 2434

~arch 27, 1975 Tape 814 <morning) relatively new programme. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary for the minister. Is the minister indicating then tha~ it is quite possible that an individual company or holder of cutting permits could control the access to a particular forest access roed7 MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, that could or could not be possible. Certainly the person or the company who might be reaping the forest, cutting trees in the area, would be required to exercise good forest fire management 1 for instance 1 and other management requirements. I do not know what the honourable member is really getting at.

What is the specific case? Is there a specific case he has in mind? ~IR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the re is a speci fie case. I am thinking of a case where I am told that Ralland Forest Products has actually designated those roads as private roads and have placed signs to that effect. I am wondering if this is within the law. There are persons who have been prevented\it is my understanding, from using those roads for forest access purposes. There are actually chains across the IB-2 road. That is my information. J have not seen them personally myself.

I wonder would the ~inister indicate whether this is strictly above hoard or if not, what he could do about it? MR. COLLINS : Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of the incident which the honourable member refers to, but there could be a very good reason for that approach to controlling the r oads. Very many of those companies might have some valuable camps, some very valuable equipment on the roads and certainly they would not want every Tom, Dick and Harry to be wandering around at night or on weekends when the y might not be there.

I will certainly have a look at the case in point and get ba ck to the honourable member on it. ~- SI),11,<QNS : I had a question for the Minister of Transportation but I seem to have Jost him. If the Minister of Transportation is within the hearing of my voice, perhaps he would come back into the chamber if he would and I will put a question to him. 2435

March ?.7, l975 Tape 8 L4 (morning) Ill-) MR. ITT:ARY: Or the acting Premier . MR. SHfl>IONS: Yes, :In the ahsrncc of the ~!inister o f Transpor t atl o11 perhaps the acting Pre mier could respon.d . I ·am thlnkin~ in p-articular about the twenty mile stretch of road between Jacques Fontaine and llarbour Mille. I am wondering if the Department of Transportation, if the minister or the acting Prel'lier would brini us 1.11> to dat.e on what is going on insofar as maintenance is concerned to avoid the threatened closing of that

section of road, Jacques r'ontaine to Harbour Mille . 2436

March 26, 1975. Tape 815 RI! - 1 I am wondering what the department is doing. Would the minister indicate what the department is doing to avoid a closing of that road? I understand the condition of the road is such now that it may have to be closed, twenty mile stretch from Jack Fountain to Harbour Mille. }m. r.o SSEAU: You are asking me - ~ SPF.AKE~: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. ROUSSEAU: Right now, as I know, we put all our trucks together in various areas of the Province. We are trying to get the shale and the sand stone that is necessary to keep these roads open.

In certain areas, of course, it takes some distance to get this equipment, but we are working on it and undoubtedly we are working in that area. I cannot give you specifically what we are doing, but I am certain because I have checked with officials yesterday to find out about other areas dotm around the South Coast and I know that the trucks have been pulled out of certain areas as people seem to think, but they .re actually not assigned to these areas. They are pulled out in groups and we are attempting to get as ruch shale a[1d as much hard material as we can to keep these roads open.

I am certain that that is one of the areas, but I will have to check out the individual road that the honourable member brings up. MR. SD!J''ONS : ------- A supplementary: I appreciate the fact the minister cannot be intimately acquainted with every mile of road in the country, but this ~articular one is causin~ a lot of concern. It is fron my knowledge, it is at the point, it has deteriorated to the point that it may have to be closed altogether. At least, this is the fear of the residents in the area.

I wonder would the ministP.r undertake to £incl out specifically uhat is r;oing on and let me know later in the day rerhaps? 2437

March 26, 1975. Tape 815 Rll - 2 MR. ROUSSEAU: ------- - Yes, I will undertake that and I will bring it to the attention - I have no <louht tlwt of[.ic'lals ,.irC' :11-mri• ~,r it, but I will undertake to bring it to their attention in .. my event. }·!Jl.. SPEAKEP.: The honourable }!enber for Dell Island. HR. :mARY: !fr. Speal·er, I wonder if the ~'inister of '.'.anpouer and Industrial Relations would care to tell the House what is l,appenine concerning the tast· force that was appointed to lool-· into the lluchans situation? Would the l'linister care to rive us a progress report? HR.

SPJ'AKT:R: The honourah] E· l'lnister of ' 1.1npower :m,l Jn,lustr ia] Relations. IION. E. 1!AYNARD: Hr. Speaker, the t2slc. force has not been formally constituted at this time although we are hopinr-; to have it finalized over the weekend and probably make an announcement on !!onday. Unfortunately, due to the trawlermen's strike which my Deputy and I were tied up for four weeks, we were unable to get the progress that we would like to have had. But I am pretty sure that by )'!onday I will be able to make an announcement to the House as to the formal structure of the task force, AN HONOURABLE :MEMllETI: Tuesday.

J-1R. 11AYNARD : Or Tuesday rather, and their

schedule will be from there on in. MR. NEARY: ~1r. Speaker, a supplementary: If the tas], force is not already properly constituted, is the minister aware that the task force have already held one or two meetings in Central Newfoundland? Is the minister aware of what is going on con­ cerning this matter? NIL IAYNl>.RD: Hr. Speaker, the task force has not held one or two meetings in Central Newfoundland. I convened a meeting in Buchans some weeks ago, a committee of officials, made up of officials of government, the unions, the companies, the town 2438

!!arch 26, 1975. Tape 815 RH - 3 officials and whatnot. That was not a task force meeting. That was an initial meeting to discuss the setting up of the task force. There has been no meetings since that and there will be another meeting when the task force has been properly con­ stituted. MR.

SPF.AKER: Before we proceed to Orders of the Day, I under- stand the Rouse may be into committee, so I would advise honourable members now with regards to the questions for the so-called late show this afternoon, I understand that because the administrator will probably be arriving by 5:45p.m., we may with leave of the House start the late show at 5:15p.m. The first question will be one by, debated by the honourable Member for Bell Island with the honourable Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment,if he is in his place. , I would like to mention a point here.

The Standing Order as amended says that honourable members who are dissatisfied with answers should provide in writing to the Speaker the question they wish to debate by, I think it is, 4:30 en the same day as the question is raised. The honourable Leader of the Opposition did raise a question on Monday and I did not get any written notice of it until Tuesday. I am quite willing to let h:lm debate the question this afternoon, but I would prefer in the future that honourable members adhere to the standing orders with regards to this particular matter.

Of course, the third one is the question raised by the honourable Member for Bell Island, today's question period to he debated by the honourable Member for Bell Island and the honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. 2439

}larch 27, 1975 Tape 816 (Morning) rI( - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The time for the question period is now over. MR. ROUSSEAU: If I could have leave to answer the question that the honourable Member for Hermitage brought up? AN HON. ME!1BER: Inaudible. MR. ROUSSEAU: - --- ---- No,not about the flippers. I am trying to find that out. About Jacques Fontaine Road. MR. SPEAKER: The Chair does recognize the Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications by leave. MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes, I checked the matter out quickly there, and we have been in contact with the Clarenville office.

We have been doing some reconstruction down in that area. Of course, they are going to have problems with the soft roads. But the people in the Clarenville area who are responsible for that are aware of it. There is some gradine going on down there, and some attempts to keep the road in the Lest shape possible hut you are going to suffer that kind of thing, of course, in the Spring where reconstruction is going on. And I know that the work is going on, they are aware of it and they will do everything they can to keep the road open. MR. CROSBIE: MR. ROBERTS: --- - - MR. SPEAK.ER: MR. ROBERTS: MR.

SPEAKER: ORDERS OF T!IE DAY Motion (1). Is there an Order Paper, Mr. Speaker? The Order Papers are not here yet. This is - I wonder if Your Honour would go on with Motion (1). Is it the pleasure of the !louse that the honourable member shall leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act Further To Amend The

Summary Jurisdiction Act."? Those is favour "aye",those against "nay", carried. On motion a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Swmnary Jurisdiction Act." Read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. CROSBIE: Motion (3),from yesterday . MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that the honourable member should have leave to introduce a bill entitled "An Act Further To Amend The Judicature Act". Is it the p1easure of the House that 2AAO

March 27, 1975 Tape 816 (Morning) PK - 2 the honourable member shall have leave to introduce the said bill? Those:in in favour "Aye", those against "Nay", carried. On motion a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Judicature Act", read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. CROSBIE: Order (5), from yesterday. MR. SPEAKER: Order (

S) is second reading of a bill entitled, "An Act Further To Amend The District Courts Act". The Hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: !1r. Speaker, in rising to close the debate on this bill, which is very self-explanatory, I just want to make a couple of comments because during the debate on second reading it seems to me that the rules of relevancy were somewhat strained. MR. RCBERTS: ------ MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: To a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please: To a point of order, Sir.

I distinctly heard the Hon. }!inister of Justice just say in this House, and I raise a point of order, and a point of privilege, Sir, that in his opinion the rules of relevancy were seriously strained. Now, Si,, that can be - HR. IIICKMAN : Somewhat. MR. ROBERTS: capable of only one meaninglthat Your Honour presiding did not enforce the rules. And I would submit, Sir, (

a) that is a point of order, a breach of order, and secondly a very serious breach of the privileges of this House for the Minister of Justice, the Assistant House Leader carrying that heavy, that heavy title of Assistant House Leader to question the Chair's conduct in this under- handed and backhanded way. Sir, this cannot be tolerated.

And I would ask Your Honour to exercise the utmost stringency and leniency) because as Shakespeare said, "The quality of mercy is not strained it dropeth as the gentle rain from Heaven upon the place beneath." But I would ask the minister, Sir, be urged to pay due and proper heed to proper procedure in this House, Sir. MR. HICKMA ... '-l': Mr. Speaker, on that point of order may I make it abundantly clear that I have nothing but the absolute confidence in Your Honour's 2441

March 27, 1975 Tape 816 (Morning) T'K - 3 ~lR. ROBERTS: Hear ! Hear! Well then no - MR. IIJ.CKMAN: fine impartiality and your strict enforcemen ·t of the rules . My co!Ull)ent on the words with r espect to the somewhat relevancy of the debate was that obviously I have an obligation co answer the one or ~;o small points attempted to be rai. sed by the honourable gentleman opposite. And in so doing l r eal.tze that I too am strayi~g somewhat from the rule s of rel evancy . This bill, Mr. Speaker, deals only with the appointment of supernume r ary judges in the District Courts . AN HOU . MEl>IBER: Inaurlible . l1R. !UCKHAN : If and when, 2442

March 27, 1975 Tape no. 817 Page l - mw an amendment to the Judges Act, which is presently before the Parliainent of Canada becomes law. That bill contains a similar provision. This bill was drafted in consultation with the officials in the Federal Department of Justice. It is complementary legislation. It will not, I repeat, it will not substantially increase the ntunber of judges in this Province. I am only aware of one District Court judge in the Province at this time who would qualify as a superntunerary judge, should that judge so decide to avail of this provision of the act. AN HON. MEMBER: MR.

HICKMAN: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. HICKMAN: Court judge. (Inaudible). No, no, he is gone. (Inaudible). This is District Court judge now, one District The Hon. Member for Bell Island inquired as to whether or not the enactment of this piece of legislation will speed up trials. I seriously doubt, Mr. Speaker, if the enactment of this particular piece of legislation will do that. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, there were three points raised by the Hon. Member for Bell Island. Let me deal with them in the order he raised them.

One1the honourable gentleman inquired as to why the delay in filling a vacancy that presently exists in the Supreme Court? That, Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to answer. I do not know. The appointment of judges of the Superior and District Courts of all provinces is the exclusive prerogative and responsibility of the federal government and the appointments are made by the Governor-General in Council. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, would the honourable gentleman permit a question? MR. HICKMAN: Yes, definitely. MR. ROBERTS: My question, Sir, would be this, and it 2443

March 27, 1975 Tape no. 817 Page 2 - mw arises out of the minister's statement. It does not challenge it because, of course, the minister's statement is correct. Has the minister made any representations - and I would urge the minister to walk carefully, because, although I was not at a meeting of the Renchers, a number of gentlemen I know were - any representations to Ottawa with respect to the timing of the appointment of the judge, the member of the bar who will become the judge in room of the late Justice Higgins? MR. HICKMAN: Only, Mr.

Speaker, the - not specifically along these lines because the gentleman in - the statement that was made by a gentleman in the cabinet of the Government of Canada with respect to the appointment of judges was that if the Fathers of Confederation had thought there should be consultation or input by the Provincial Attorney General, they would have provided it in the British North America Act, and they did not do it. But in answer to the question of the honourable Leader of the Opposition, immediately following the tragic death of Mr.

Justice Higgins the question arose as to who has the responsibility of advising the Government Of Canada that a judge of a Superior Court had died in office, and after some consultation, it was suggested that the responsibility MR. ROBERTS : Did the minister know the gentleman? MR. HICKMAN: No. - that the responsibility may have been mine, so I telephoned Mr. Lang, and I am sure he will not be annoyed at my disclosing this conversation, and asked him. He said, I do not know. But he said I was aware of the fact that Mr.

Justice Higgins had died, because it was carried in the national press. ~ut I said, supposing you have a MR. ROBERTS: Justice Higgins died in office, surely. MR. HICKMAN: but supposing you have a County Court judge in a remote part of one of the provinces, who has never been a national figure, it may - MR. ROBERTS: It is a good question. Whose responsibility is it? The Clerk of the Court? 24AA

March 27, 1975 Tape no. 817 Page 3 - lllW MR. HICKMAN: Well we came back, and forth, and anyway it was finally discovered that the responsibility was that of the registrar. MR, ROBER.TS: MR. HICKMAN: MR. ROBER.TS: MR. HICKMAN : please issue - MR.. ROBERTS: Of the court? Yes, he advises the paymaster, I guess. Some one sort of stopped the cheque. Yes• Mr. Jus -tice so and so has died, will you When Sidney Smith died as Secretary of State of External Affairs, Henry Best was his executive assistant, Dr. Best worked for the Tory Party here. MR .• HJ:CKMAN: Yes. MR..

ROBERTS: Three o'clock that afternoon. he got a phone call from the Treasury Board saying, you are off the payroll, your mimster died this morning. MR, HICKMAN: I see. In any event 2445

March 27, 1975. Tape 818 r.n - 1 mv view at that time and I, you know, I - l!R. ROBERTS: --- ------- You are dodging, the point of what I was - ~IR. HICKMAN: Oh! No, 1 am not -----·--- ,lo<igj111i the point, hut T 11ant - MR. ROilF.RTS: Then you are not saying it. HR. llICKNAN: - to be careful how I say it because I do not want to give the honourable the Minister of Justice in Ottawa the impression that I would disclose ,my conversation that he would consider to be confidential.

I do not thinL he would consider this one to be because he subsequently confinied the same view to the Benchers of the Law Societv. )·IP_. llOBERTS: Inaurlihle. ----- ---- I simply pointed out to hiT!l that <-re hD.vc hut a four man hench and that a delay of any substantial period T'light !'!alee it very difficult for the other judr.es. MR. ROBERTS: Should have been appointed weel-·s ago.

MR. llICKIW l : At that time, that was the first ueek :!.n ~1ovcnher or the last peel,_ in October, at that time the 1':1.nistcr of Justice of C2nacla was about to give notice of t11e a!'lendment to the Judges /\ct and he optimistically predicted that that hill would he throup:11 the Fouse o.E Commons by Decenher 31 and he sort of said then, would there by any objection to ,toinr, all at the same time. Of course, that is1 I agreed with him. It was an eminently sensible idea. Since then, I understand that the Benchers of the Law Society have !'.lade reoresentation to Hr.

Lang inouiring as to i,hen he is goinr; to fill the vacancy, Whereupon they very properly received a very curt reply from him rather suggestinp; that that was his resr>onsibility. I understand the teler,ram in rer>lY is !JOStecl in a prominent place in the Courthouse at this time, but that w11s the end of that. But it is the sole, exclusive responsibility of the Governor-General in Council to make these appointments. As far as delays in trials are concerned, Mr. Speaker, we nou 2446

~larch 27. 1975. Tape 818 RH - 2 have in my department on the criminal side, not all the crown prosecutors we need, but a reasonably substantial number. When once the police investigation is completed,and then it depends on the seriousness of the offense and sometimes where the witnesses are, but when once the police have completed their investigation the crown prosecutors on the staff of my department are then ready to go. It is up to the magistrate or judge to set a date. AN HONOURABLE HfilffiER: What about private prosecut~ons? !~. J!IC:IC?-Wl: No, !~r. Speaker, we do not. We can.

We have the right to intervene if we so desire or we have the right to authorize or permit a solicitor who is already acting as counsel in the private prosecution to continue. The one that the honourable gentleman is speaking of,and I have to be very careful because I know it is before the court, my understanding is that the counsel for the complainant has been to a judge of the Supreme Court indicating that he would like for an early trial and they are now awaiting work from counsel for the accused. This is where we run into a problem.

I am not talking about that case, but I see - I have read a couple of times ,mere there has been a statement emanating. say, from the !1agistrate' s Court where some gentleman doing his best for his client gets up and says, the Crown wants a postponement today. This is the fourth t:!Jne and we have checked and,lo and behold.the first three postponements were at the request of counsel for the accused. You know, he has to go out of town, he hns - At{ HONOURABLE !-!EMBER: Inaudible. MR.

HICKNAN: 1/ell, I cannot talk about the ones before the court, but that one was delayed because of the necessity, I understand, to have certain medical evidence. The medical doctors were not in the Province and they had to come here at their convenience 2447

~'.arch 27, ICJ75. Tape 818 Rl! - 3 because I believe they 1.1ere outside of Canada , but I am not certain of that. Out there is where we run into the delays . I think it is grossly unfair to the Crown, grossly unfair to the court for counsel for an accused person to come in, r,ive three ,idjournments which throws off the Crown sche<lule. You know, telephone call from l!ontreal at ten o'clock in the r.1orning saying Your Honour, I just remembered I had a case this mornin~. will you please postpone it? I cannot be there.

This is counsel for the accused. lie try to accommodate hec.ause it is not fai.r to the accused to be without representation if he so desi res, and that is whet happens . I move second readinp. . On motion, l'lecond readin, ~ of .'.l bill, "An Act further To Ar.lend The District Courtl': Act, " read a second tillle, referr ed to a r.ormiittee of the 1n,ole House no,• hv lenve. 2448

March 27, 1975 Tape No. 819 NM - 1 Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Solemnization Of Marriage Act, 1975." MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, this act simply transfers responsibility for the administration of the Solemnization of Marriage Act from the Minister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment to the Minister of Health and the reason for it is quite obvious. The Registrar of Birth Statisticsand Marriages is within the jurisdiction of the Minister of Health. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS : Mr.

Speaker, after a long and prayerful consideration of the matter and after four task force studies, the minister should not look so apprehensive, I have no hidden time bombs on this one, Sir. After a prayerful consideration and much consulting of our consciences, my colleagues and I have come to the conclusion that we will accept the minister's explanation. We are prepared to vote to support the principle of this major piece of legislation. The only comment I would mske really, Sir, grows out of the bill.

The bill, which we are amending, the act which we are amending with this bill was enacted a year and a half ago, last Spring, the Spring of 1974 and what we are doing now is correcting what amounts to a clerical error. The Minister of Health is responsible for the Registry of Marriages and Births and Deaths­ the people who were hatched, matched and dispatched, as somebody once said - and you know it is onlv apµrooriate that he should be the minister who is notified of marriages under The Solemnization of Marriage Act. Otherwise it makes the whole registry system quite meaningless.

What concerns me though, Sir, is that this act, The Solemnization of Marriage Act, is like so many statutes, They are passed and then a long time goes by before there is any action. Now I realize that the Minister of Justice has difficulty in recruiting 2449

March 27, 1975 Tape No. 819 NM- 2 and then in retaining draftsmen. Draftsmen are unusual legal animals. Very few lawyers have a knack for drafting and even fewer have a desire to be legislative draftsmen and I know the problem exists all across Canada. But I am wondering if there is any way in which we can be a little better in Newfoundland. There must be on the statute books, Sir, and I have not checked it up recently, there must be fifty pieces of legislation that have been enacted by this House that have not been proclaimed. The lack of proclamation I submit is not a matter of policy.

If some act has not been proclaimed because of a point of policy 1 well that is fair enough, the ministry can be challenged on their policy and will defend it in the normal way and will answer for their action or inaction. What concerns me is the sort of situation we have with The Solemnization Of Marriage Act, The Act was enacted last Spring, the better part of a year ago, I do not have the precise date but it was ten months ago or eleven months ago or a year ago.

There are all sorts of people over Newfoundland who heard or read that the House of Assembly had authorized marriages by the civil power as opposed to marriages only hy the religious authorities whichwas the hitherto prevailing situation. Most of the people sort of in a sense queued up to get married under the civil authority, under the new Solemnization Of Marriage Act, I do not think any hardship has resulted from the fact that there has not yet ' been anybody married in a civil ceremony in Newfoundland but I do know of some inconveniences which have resulted.

The act was changed to allow civil marriages with the full consent of the religious authorities and with the full approval of this House,was changed because there are people who wish to be married by the civil process. That is their right. We have established that right in Newfoundland. Now, hopefully within the next matter of days or at most weeks, with this change in the law, the rules will be proclaimed, 2450

March 27, 1975 Tape No, 819 NM - 3 the rules which allow the act to function and then the act will be proclaimed at the same time. Nothing can 2451

March 27, 1975 Tape 820 (morning) he clone cthout that. I am not accusing the minister of shirking his duty of of heing derelict in meeting his responsibiU .ties, but what does concern me is that this process goes on and on. The Condominium Act was much the same. It was enacted hack in 11)7() or 1971, and it was only proclaimed within the past two or three months. Again the reason why it was not proclaimed, we were assured and T hPHeve this, was not a matter of pol icy. If it were a matter of policy, one could understand that.

Tf the administration simply said, we do not helieve this should be done therefore we are not prepared to do it, well, that is fine. I mean, that is the way life is. TB-1 But it was not proclaimed because of the cliffi.culty in drawing up the regulations. I merely ask the minister if then~ is any way in which we can act more quickly. I do not think the minister is going to be able to get any more draftsmen. He and his predecessors have scoured the world, at least the common law world, for legislative draftsmen. There are just not going to be any more.

I do not know if there are any young lawyers now in Newfoundland who are contemplating following the drafting side of the law and mak:fng it their 1:ffe's work. It could he a very secure and lucrative and interesting hranch - AN HONOURABLE ME:MJIER: Inaud:fhle. MR. ROBERTS: The Minister of Mrmicipal Affairs has a very good vo:fce and I am grateful to hear from him, but if he could keep it down a little in the chamber, I would be grateful. There are no magic sources of draftsmen anywhere in the world. We have to accept that and we are going to have to live with it.

Despite the monetary inducements and despite the security and despite the attractions such as they be of working as a legislative draftsman, there just are not very many coming forward. I do not l·now what the current situation is :fn Ottawa, but every time I mention it to anybody up there, a minister or an official, I am told that they have essentially the same problem, great delays in getting legislation drafted, even greater delays in getting regulations drafted and enacted and of course delegc1ted legislation regulations are going to be a feature of life more and more so. A few 2452

March 27, 1975 Tape ~20 (morning) IB-2 years ago, fifty years ago or so, regulations were unheard of. They were very much the exception, Now, most of the legislation which goes through this House, Your Honour, amounts to a delegation by this House to the government of authority to implement certain principles. We debate the principles and we decide upon the principles but the implementation of them is left to regulations. Sir, is there anything that can he done? Is there an way the common law provinces can get together?

Our marriage regulations surely in most respects will be quite similar to those which exist in other common law provinces. They will be different than the Province of Quebec which follows the civil law regime, the regime which grows out of the Napoleonic code, the French system. But Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick, and Newfoundland, we may have some local differences. There may be some that are here hy force of history.

There may he some that are here because we have different circumstances, hut surely the basic legal requirements of a marriage in Nova Scotia, and the basic legal requirements of 0 marriage in Newfoundland are not that dissimilar. So, all I am saying, I guess, is there any way we can get some co-operative effort. This might be a field where the common law provinces could come together. If the Province of Ontario has regulations on condominiums and they have developed them, then possibly we could ac1opt them with making relatively few changes. Now, I know that is largely what is done now.

Lawyers are great fellows for precedent, Mr. Speaker. Wh~t precedent usually boils down to is copying what some other lawyer has done before. But it is a problem, and the marriage act is an example of the problem. We have passed legislation. People expect that the legislation is the law, but Your Honour, it is not the law until it is proclaimed. The marriage Jaw in Newfoundland as of today, March 27, is exactly the same as it was a year ago or two years ago or five years ago. The passage. of a Solemnization of Marriage Act during the 1974 session has not changed the law.

It will not change it until it is proclaimed and the minister 2453

Tape 82n (mominR) has explained when it will he proclaimed and has told us why it has not hitherto been proclaimed. That is ftne. nut I think it is a valid concern. I think it is one of the duties of this House , Sir , to co11111unicate to the - to he frank , w1.th people. T am not sayinp, we 11re mislead1ng people , l'>ut when lR-3 we pass laws the avera11e citl zen naturally expects that we have passed the law, that we have changed the law.

Well , in this case, we have not yet. lt is not a matter of had faith, It ts not a matter of anything except the sheer mechanical work of netting the lcr1slattve work done, of getting the drafting done , of getting the re~ulations worked out and proclalmed. T am su-re the de Lay is not at the cah1net level. In my experience,an d Tam sure that the present system is no different, Sir , a mini ster would come into cabinet and he would say, I have here a hunch of regulations with respect to such and such

an act and the y have been circulated, great whopping papers that the Clerk of the Cabinet would send around to the mini~ter to ruin the minister ' s evenin g for him . Someone would say, have they heen clea red by Justice? Yes, they have heen cleared hy Justice. Somebody else would say, have they bee_n cleared by the .minister's officials? And it would be aii;reed they had been,and then somebody would say, well, all right now that is it,and i t would he agreed 2454

March 27, 1975 Tape no. 821 Page 1 - mw and the Clerk of the Cabinet would be authorized and in due course would issue an Order-in-Council approving the regulations. I suspect that the process has not changed a jot or a tittle. I do not think any minister, other than the minister concerned, really looks at regulations unless they are of !!:rave importance. The Minister of Education occasionally has great, long regulations on teacher certification.

They are of great concern to teachers and of great concern to the minister's officials, but I venture to suggest that not one of his colleagues would ever read a draft regulation coming to Cabinet, you know, if he were assured by the Minister of Education that it was in order and within the policies that had been worked out and adopted. And in the middle of them, we could put a regulation repealing "The Lord's Prayer" insofar as it affects the schools of Newfoundland and that would be approved by the Cabinet, and in due course it would be Gazetted and there we would be.

Well I guess that that is the way it has to be, So I simply ask the minister, are there any steps we can take with respect to regulations? We have to have tlrem. We are not going to get any more draftsmen. 'You know, we will spend the rest of our public careers and private careers, too:, if we are interested, in lamenting the lack of draftsmen and looking for more, but we are not going to find any magic supply. What can we do to speed up the process? As to the bill itself, of course, we will support it. MR. SPEAKER: If the honourable minister speaks now he closes the debate. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, what the Hon. Leader of the Opposition said about legislative draftsmen is indeed correct. Every province in Canada has a shortage of them. The Government of Canada certainly is not flush with them. The chief lei;!:islative draftsman for Canada is a Newfoundlander, Jim Ryan, AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). 2455

March 27, 1975 Tape no. 821 Page 2 - mw MR. HICKMAN': No, he was down here last year and met with us. The only consulation we got from his visit was that our problem was no worse than his. MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) • MR. HICKMAN: He is the first cousin of Frank Ryan. He grew up in Port-aux-Basques. He was at law school around when I was there. In the department we have one or two or maybe three now, who are doing some legislative drafting. Not too many of the graduates corning out of law school show some interest.

One lady who showed some interest, who was graduating this year came to see us, she is a Newfoundlander, applied to the Driedger School of Draftin~. which is affiliated with Carlton University and I now hear that she has won a scholarship to London University so I suspect that the drafting ambitions may no longer come to fruition. The Solemnization of Marriage Act, the proclamation of this, has not been delayed primarily because of the drafting of the regulations.

We felt, as a matter of policy, that we should proceed with absolute and close consultation with the churches on the regulations and on the forms to be used and to be certain that the forms, the proposed forms, were in the hands of the marriage licence issuers and the marriage conmissioners in sufficient time for them to carefully peruse them so that when once the act becomes law, there will be no inconvenience caused to the public. We also will have to appoint,and this should be done within the next few days, a large number of marriage licence issuers, and in that respect - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

HICKMAN: But the selection of them. They were a group of people chosen by the magistrates who were asked to choose from each town,certainly any sizeable town, so that there would be no 2456

March 27 , 1975 Tape no. 821 Page 3 - mw inconvenience with respect to any applicant - MR. ROBERTS: Town clerks and that sort of person. MR. HICKMAN: That sort of - well, I am just looking at one here now, and in certain towns like Labrador City, there would be several. Two of them are Justices of the Peace. MR. ROBER.TS: MR. HICKMAN: MR. ROBERTS: MR. HICKMAN: MR . ROBERTS: MR.. HICKMAN: MR.. ROBER.TS: MR. HICKMAN: The names. The names do not - in H\llllber East I see a town - Give me the names of my district. All right, White Bay - If there is nothing secret about the names? Oh, no.

They will be proclaimed in a day or so. They have not yet be.en made public, because they have not been Razetted but White Bay - oh dear. MR.. ROBER.TS: White Bay North, until the gerrymandering comes into effect. There will probably be Grand Bank then or Burin, Kilbride, St. John's West, who knows? MR. HICKMAN: (Inaudible). MR. ROBER.TS·: Green Bay maybe, who knows? MR. HICKMAN: Id& not think ou White Bay North. This is theJ.P.Roy B.Pilgrlm, himself. MR . ROBERTS: Mr. Patey is the welfare officer and Roy Pilgrim is the school principal. MR. HICKMAN: MR. ROBER"rS: MR. HICKMAN: 2457 Calvin Chaulk, Englee.

Welfare officer. Rickey Canning, Roddickton. Si dney -

}!arch 27, 1975. Tape 822 RH - l MR. ROBERTS: Probably Dick's boy. ~- HICK!'lAN: Sidney Richard, St. Lunaire; Clyde r~aynard, St. Anthony; Raymond Hunt, Conche; Charles J.Green, llnglee; Eugene B.Fillier, Roddickton. "IR. ROBERTS: Now, that brings up a problem because most of those people are welfare officers who in the normal course - you know, Clyde Maynard - MR. HICKHAN: May be transferred. HR. ROBE..RTS: Yes. What happens then? MR. I!ICKMAN: If they are, before they are transferred someone else will be - MR.

ROBERTS: But would it not make more sense to appoint - Now, Roy Pilgrim is a school principal and will presumably spend his career in St. Anthony. HR. HICKMAN: MR. ROBERTS: But these - yes, but what I am pointing out is - And also there is something wrong with a person who want_s to get married having to go the welfare officer. !·1R. HICKMAN: Well, - I mean, I am quite serious, "Alec". HR. ROBERTS: l1R. HICKMAN: Even the persons that were recommended by the magistrate, if they are not - }1R. NEARY: What about Bell Island. MR. RIC!(l,f.A.~: I have not got the Bell Island list here, I do not think, "Steve". MR.

ROBERTS: No, but I mean there is something wrong in principle. You have the normal, I would have thought would to be to get the to~m clerk, you know, or town manager. 'MR. RICKMAN: HR. ROBERTS: MR. HICKM.AN: In some cases, I see they have done that. Just because they burned the town hall and - We felt as matter of policy that the right way to approach it would be to ask the magistrates 1 who know the people living in the magisterial districtslto appoint responsible people , you know, reasonably intelligent people,and these were the ones they reco1111!1ended. 2458

)larch 27, 1975. Tape 822 RH - 2 We did not say1 do not reco11U11end a welfare officer or do not recommend a teacher, but it was because of these things that there was a delay. I am hoping that the act will become law, the Solemnization of Marriage Act will become law on April 15. !ffi.. ROBERTS: MR. HICKMAN: -------- MR. ROBERTS: Not April Fools' Day. April 15, 1975, this year. I am advised by - So, anybody comtemplating getting married now, anybody who wants to be the first to be married by Dorothy or by Pat Hand - Pat Griffin, not Pat Hand. NR. HICKMAN: Anyway, Mr.

Noonan in my department has told me that the forms have been sent out to all the marriage licence issuers, the proposed marriage licence issuers, to all the clergy and they have had them for sufficient time now that they are fully familiar with them. On motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Solemnization Of Marriage Act, 1974," read a second time, referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. On motion, the House resolved itself into Committee of Whole. Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE: MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Bill No. (3).

A bill, "An Act Further To Amend The District c1,urts Act''. On motion clauses (1) through (3) carried. Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. A bill, "An Act To Amend The Solemnization Of Harriage Act, 1974." On motion clauses (1) through ( 3) carried. Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. 2459

March 27, 1975 Tape 823 (Morning) On motion that the Committee rise and report progress, and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and have directed me to report having passed bills Nos. (3) and (4) without amendment and ask leave to sit again. On motion report received and adopted, committee ordered to sit again presently. On motion that the following bills be read a third time ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. A bill, "An Act Further To Amend The District Courts Act." A bill, "An Act To Amend The Solemnization Of Marriage Act, 1974." MR. CROSBIE: Order

(3) Committee of Supply. PK - 1 On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker, left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Head 501-01? AN HON. MEMBER: Carried. MR. NEARY: Not quite yet, Mr. Chairman. When the Committee rose, Sir, on Friday, I had just finished giving the House my idea and my concept and my philosophy of the Liberal Party of what we thought might be a good approach to this serious problem that we are having in this Province of labour-management relations. And I have no intention of going back over the ground again, Sir.

But I do suspect that the Minister of Nanpower and Industrial Relations when he stands in his place to reply to some of the remarks that I made, ancl I have no doubt, Sir, that he will draw our attention to the fact that we already have Labour-Management Committees in this Province. Well I am well aware of that, Sir. Last year the minister's department spent $4,000 on these meetings, so-called meeting of Labour-Management Committees, and this year - 2460

!'!arch 27, 1975 MR. ROBERTS: !ffi.. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: Four thousand? Four thousand. Tape 823 (Morning) PK - 2 the minister's travelling expenses. That is hardly the minister's - yes that is right. Thatcis just double the minister's travelling expenses. HR. ROBERTS: The CFLCo jet would cost probably $400 an hour. MR. NEARY: That is right. And this year the minister has budgeted for $10,000 for tabour-Management Collllllittees. But, Sir, it is not the amount of money I am talking about.

These ppor old feeble Labour­ Management Committees that the minister will tell us about, the minister will say, Oh, we already have a sort of a semi quasi Productivity Council. But, Mr. Chairman, we do not. This is just the minister plodding along at a snail's paced, in the usual old typical civil service way, Sir. And I would say that the present Labour­ Management Committees are not good enough - not good enough. The minister, Sir, should either shape up or ship out. MR. ROBERTS: Hear! Hear! MR.

NEARY: If he cannot grasp the philosophy that I expounded in the last couple of days,in this honourable House on our idea of a Productivity Council)then he should shape up or ship out. The minister now is having his second go on Manpower and Industrial Relations. The first time the minister did not have a very good track record, and so far, Sir, I must say that we are not impressed with the minister's performance. I would not say that the minister is incompetent, Sir. I would not say that. The minister is very congenial. He does not 2461

March 27, 1975 Tape No. 824 NM - 1 get himself in any trouble. He is able to, almost as Rood as the Member for St. John's South, to go straight down the middle on issues. I am willing to take a position, to take a stand one way or another, and that is the weakness, Sir, in that department. You have to show strong leadership in that department, Mr.

Chairman, and we saw an example today, Sir, when I put a question to the minister during the oral question period about the Dyer Report, about the task force that is supposed to have been set up months ago, months and months ago, to look into the Buchans situation, the cleeing of the Buchans mine. Now the minister got up in his usual feeble, tired old way and told us that the committee was not yet constituted. Not yet constituted! The report is almost a year old, Sir.

The minister gave us a feeble excuse, the trawlermen's strike, did not have time to set up the committee, did not have time to get his officials working on the committee, did not have time down in his office, he is so busy with the trawlermen's dispute, not able to sleep a wink at night, up night and day, worried about it, would not do anything about, would not take the initiative, so busy with the trawlermen's strike that they did not have time to set up this task force to deal with the matter of the closing of the Buchans Mine. But, Sir, I do not accept that explanation. Mr.

Chairman, when I was a minister in the former administration there was a time I had three portfolios, including the minister's department. Now mind you, Mr. Chairman, it was quite a man-sized job , I was quite busy, I was punching in eighteen and twenty hours a day but I always found time, Sir, even running three depa~tments of government, I always found time to deal with the important issues. A lot of the minor things probably had to go by the board, they were thrown over on the officials and the staff of the department, but all the major items were always dealt with.

The minister can put that silly grin on his face all he wants, Sir, but all he has to do is go down and check with the offtcials 2462

March 27, 1975 Tape No. 824 NM_ 2 of that department. AN HON, MEMBER: Inaudible, MR, NEARY: All the minister has to do, Sir, is check with the staff of that department and the minister will find out that every item in that department when I was acting minister was looked at by the minister, meetings were held every morning and everything was approved, bang, bang, bang.

The minister has the - well how naive, Sir, how naive does the honourable m:1.nister think we are, to come into this House after lecturing the House like you would lecture a group of school children,or at the annual staff meeting after 1 lecturing us and_,you know, almost as if we were not a group of adults, mature people, and then tell us that he was too busy with the trawlermen's strike. I would like to talk to Richard Cashin about that.

I would like to talk to the trawlermen on the Southwest Coast about that,and in Trepassey and in the other areas of Newfoundland where we have pockets of trawlermen,and find out if the minister was too busy with the trawlermen's strike to appoint this task force to deal with the closing of the Buchans Mine, see what they would have to say about it. They sat back, Sir, for almost seventy-five days waiting to see what the minister was going to do and in that period of time, in seventy-five or eighty days, the minister comes in this honourable House and tells us he did not have time to appoint this task force.

You know,what are we supposed to be here, Sir, a crowd of fools? Are we stupid? Are we stunned? Are we naive? I do not accept that explanation, Sir. It is only an excuse,and a feeble excuse at that, for the minister not coming to grips with the appointment of this task force to deal with the closing of the Buchans Mine and unfortunately, Sir, and I would say it is rather a tragedy, that we are told by Mr. Edward Hamilton, a resident of Buchana and a gentleman who apparently sat in on the original meeting that planned the setting up of this task force, we are told by Mr.

Hamilton that the people of Buchans, the miners in Buchans are becoming apathetic and complacent 2463

March 27, 1975 Tape Sl25 (morning) IB-1 about the closing of the mine and I can understand that, Sir, because I was involved myself in the closing of a mine. I lost my job when DOSCC finally pulled out on Rell Island. I was one of the ones who was laid off at the end of June, June 30, 19~6. I got my termination notice. They gave me three months notice. AN HONOURAT\Lf. MJ::MT\ER: ,·ou p.ot a new contract after that. MR. NEARY: No, we did not get any contract.

Sir, it so happens that I happened to be a member of the House of Assembly, hut I was still working with DOSCO when the mine closed, and I was one of the ones who was laid off. I know what it is like, Sir. I know, You cannot help but developing this feeling, well, then maybe something will happen, maybe there is something on the horizon that will keep the mine go:lng. Maybe they will just discover a new seam of ore. Maybe a miracle will happen.

Somehow or other the people, and you cannot blame them, Sir, the miners, somehow or other do not accept the fact that the mine is going to close w:I. thin a matter of three to five years. This is the result, a direct result, Sir, of the minister's negligence and the minister's complacency and the minister's apathy and the minister not facing up to his responsibilities as a minister in appoint:lng this task force. Sir, it will soon be too late. They have wasted almost a full year now. We are told by Mr.

Hamilton and other people from Buchans 1 and the honourable member probably has heard this, that it is going to take anywhere from two to three years to formulate plans to take the place of the mine. That is, Mr. Chairman, if they can use their imagination, if they can get the co-operation of the government, if they can formulate plans. It will take two or three years to implement any plans. One year for the task force to finish its work, hut after that how long to implement plans 1if there are any plans? We do not know that is right. The minister does not know. The member does not know.

I do not know and the minister does not know. Rut, we have already wasted one year, Sir, and I think now it is about time that the minister came to grips with this situation and 2464

March 27, 1975 Tape 1\25 (morning) IB-2 got that task force moving, got it set up and got it on the rails, got her moving. Otherwise, Sir - and they have sufficient time, Mr. Chairmnn. Remember this>that on Bell Island, Sir, we only had three months notice. It is a different situation altogether in Buchans, a different situation altogether. They have sufficient time. They have at least three years notice. That is why the task force it being set up, hut not set up yet. So, they have at least three years, Sir, to figure out if there is anything that can take the place of that mine in Buchans.

But the minister, Sir, the minister has to get off his behind, off his large-sized butt, and get out, Sir, get out and get this task force appointed immediately. Do not waste any more time. It is eruel, Sir, indeed for the minister to treat the people of Buchans that way. They do not deserve it, Sir. They have made their contribution to the puhlic treasury of th:1.s Province. They have been good, loyal citizens, good taxpayers, and the minister and the administration - the Premier should have used the cat-o'-nine-tails on the minister for not doing this, not acting on this right away. Why, Mr.

Chairman, should the minister come in here and try to persuade us that he was so busy with the trawlermen's strike that he could not recommend to his colleagues the names and the terms of reference of this task force? So, I think now, Mr. Chairman, I have m~de my point on that matter. I will go on, Sir, to another matter that I want to give the minister a few flicks about. This concerns the Workmen's Compensation Board, Sir. The Minister of Manpower and Industrial RElations is the minister that reports to this honourable House on behalf of the Workmen's Compensation Board.

The minister is not responsible for the day to day activities of the Workmen's Compensation Board. The Workmen's Compensation Board is commissioned hy this honourable House, Although the minister may think he is the boss) heis not the boss. Any time, Sir, the Chairman of the Workmen's Compensation Board feels like telling the minister to go leap off the top of Confederation Building, 2465

March 27, 1975 Tape 825 (morning) IB-3 he can do it. All the minister can do is report him to the Lieutenant­ Governor in Council. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. 2466

March 27, 1975 Tape no. 826 Page 1 - mw MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? All the minister could do, Sir, if he does not want to take the advice of the Chairman of the Workmen's Compensation Board and go up on the Observation Tower and leap off; all we can do is report it to the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. You cannot discipline the board. The minister cannot. The minister can warn them, threaten them, bully them around. AN HON. MEMBER: Fire them. MR. NEARY: No! The minister cannot fire them. But, Sir, the minister and the administration did fi.1\d a devious way to fire three members of the board, in my opinion.

Remember, Mr. Chairman, remember this, that the minister and his colleagues told the people of this Province that there would be no more political appointments in this Province. And the minister told us, Sir, that the O'Neill Report,the O'NeillRoyal Conmission Report states that the morale of the staff of the Workmen's Compensation Board was at a low ebb because of the political appointments. The minister told us that and has been telling us that for several months past. The minister did say it, Sir, and his colleagues said it. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, the minister's colleagues told us that the morale was low because of the political appointments to that board. The Hon. Premier said it. AN HON. MEMBER: The President of the Treasury Board. MR. NEARY: I do not know if the honourable - no, the Hon. President of the Treasury Board did not say it. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: The honourable minister's predecessor I do not think said it. I do not think. I am not quite sure but the honourable minister's predecessor was certainly riding the razor's edge on that whole matter of firing the former members of the Workmen's 2467

March 27, 1975 Tape no. 826 Page 2 - mw Compensation Board. And they were fired, Sir. It is just as well to face it. They were fired by this honourable crowd who said that there would be no more political appointments to boards or administrative posts or crown corporations. They told us in two provincial elections. The other day when the minister came into this House, Sir, and announced the make-up of the Workmen's Compensation Board, lo and behold, Mr. Chairman, lo and behold, we find one Mr. Andy Rose, maybe a good man, Sir. The minister told us all about his qualifications. Re is an accountant.

Re is a representative's agent and he is this and he is that, and I reminded the minister when I rose in my place that one of the qualifications for that job that the minister did not mention was that one Mr, Andy Rose was the defeated - AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.NEARY: Sought, Sir, sought, unsuccessfully to get the Tory nomination in the district of Placentia East in the last provincial general election. Now that is not a bad record for an administration, Sir, that never, never again will delve in· political patronage or favouritism and never again will make a political appointment to a board. AN RON.

MEMBER:(Inaudible). MR. NEARY: No, it is not a shame, Sir. The minister should be ashamed. There are people in this honourable House, Sir, I have heard members get up and spout off about political patronage is here to stay, and there is nothing we can do about it, you know. But, Sir, I was not the one who said that never again will there be political patronage in this Province. It was the honourable minister's leader, and his colleagues. Here we find Mr. Andy Rose. What about Mr . John Murphy~the alternate on the board, the safety inspector for the Iron Ore Company of Canda? AN HON. MEMBER: A good man. MR.

NEARY: A good man. I know him well, Sir. He is married to a distant relative of mine. 2468

I-larch 27, 1975 Tape no. 826 Page 3 - mw AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. NEARY: But I would not consider Mm, Sir, even though I like the gentleman , I certainly would not consider hiin to be the staunchest Libe r al in this Province . AN BON. MEMBER: Very doubtful. MR. ~EARY: I certainly would mark him down as doubtful, very doubtful, very doubtful indeed, and no doubt t he minister had researched Mr. :iurphy ' s background very carefully to find out what his political affiliations were before he gave him this little bit of - this few crumbs from the rich man's table. There is no doubt about that at all, Sir.

The rich man in this case being the adminis t ration , Sir, not the minister. There is no doubt that that was very, very carefully researched. And Mr. Woodford - MR. DOODY: (Inaudible ) • MR. Nl>ARY: The minister did not indicate to the House. '£he minister told us that Mr. Woodford was the labour appointee. The minister did not tell us whethe .r that was the recol!!lllendation of the Newfoundland Federation of Labour or not. It was not. 2469

March 27, 1975. Tape 827 PJJ: - 1 AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: But was it? Can the minister indicate to me whether it was a recommendation of the Newfoundland "Federation of Labour? It was not. \foll, how can the minister stan,1 ln thifl llouse, SLr, and tell us that Mr. Woodford is the appointee representing the trade union movement when the minister did not even go and ask the trade union movement who they wanted to represent them. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: What is wrong with Bill Woodford? MR. NEARY: Nothing.

There is not a thing in the world - I think he lives up in my honourable friend's district, does he not? MR. DOODY: He is not in my district or I would have the honour of representing him. HR. NEARY: T.Yel 1, in the upper !)art of the hea,1 of the l~ay, the part now that is - Ai'! HONOURABLE HEHBF.R: Inaudible. HR. NEAP.Y: Hell, Sir, l'lore power to him. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. HR. NEARY: Yes, and I am not criticizi:1f the young gentleman, Sir. I happen to l:now the gentleman. f~"l HO~WURPJlLE ~!El'llER: Inaudible. HR. NEARY: ----- Yes, it is not !lr. Woodford. The point I am making is not Nr.

Woodford's fault. A1l IIONOURABLE mMBER: Inaudible. ~!R. NEARY: Yes, it is not Mr. Hoodford. The point I al!l makinp,. }!r, Chairnan, it is not }'r. Vooc!ford's fault. He is not responsible for the behaviour and the action of the honourable minister in this House or the honourable minister in his department. The honourable minister left us uith the impression in this honourable House that }!r, Woodford was the labour appointee on the board when in actual fact, Sir, w"!lat the minister is really saying, we are appointinf )'.r. Woodford, he happens to be the business ap,ent for one of the - 2470

Tape 827 RH - 2 for the steelworkers, is it? ~\'I IIOl!OlJR<\BLI: III'.MBER: No, for the iron . l!P-. NEAPS: -------- For the iron workers. He happens to be the representative for the iron workers, so somehow or other the minister connects this with his bein3 the official representative of labour on the Worlanens' Compensation Board. We hear he represents half of them. l'R. NEARY: -- ------ No, Sir, he does not. But, Sir, the minister has already p;ot himself in hot water with the Newfoundland Federation of Labour through his appointment on the Minimum Uage Board. Incidentally, I might mention also, Mr.

Chairman, just in passing, I do not see anythinp: wrong with, I am niave, you know, I accept everything at face value, Mr. Andy Rose, Esquire. happens to be Chairman of the i!inimurn Hage Board for the time being until that board is wiped out. Does he now hold down two positions? Is he going to be Chain,ian of the Minimum lfage Board and also a member, permanent member, of the Worlanen's Compensation Board? /\N HQ~l(ll'RABLE NEMBER: Inaudible. 7W. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, it is very sickening indeed.

It is ----- really very sickening, almost - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. ---- J!R.NEJ\RY: Sir, you could hardly stand up in this honourable House and listen to this sort of goings on, Sir, without - No, I better not Ray it. But, anyway, "i'!r. Chairman, the old Worlanen's Compensation noard was fired. Now, the minister did not tell us whether these honourable gentlemen received any pensions or not. Was there any deal made with any of these people? The minister tells us that th<." morale down at the Worlanen's Compensation was at an all time low.

The minister did not give us anything to substantiate that statement and judging by some of the other statements that the minister has made over the last couple of years, Sir, I would submit that there is a credihiljty gap and I would like,myself, 2471

March 27, 1975. Tape 827 RJ1 - 3 to see tho evidence in black and white . AN UONOURABl,E HOmER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No, the minister refused to give us that part of tho - AN HONOURABLE t~tB ER: Inaudible. HR . ~!EARY: I beg you r pardon? AN llONOURABU: 1-0:::~ CR: Innuclible . NR. ln'.ARY: No, only the first part of it, Has there not two parts to that report? That was the whole report? That uas it? Well, Sir, there was nothing in that report that you could han~ your hat on . Now, I saw that one but I undei::stood there was another report done by Peat Harwick and l:itchell. Is that not correct?

AN HONOURABLE MEMllER: That vas a mana gement stud y . l-!R. ?!EARY: Well, this is what I mn talking about. That report has not been made public. Well, why is it not 111ade [>ubli c ? _A.'i HONOURABLE MDmER: Because - MR. t-IBARY: l!r. Chairman, if the minister is basin r, his deci sion for firin g the members of the Workmen' s Compensation Board on the O'Neill Report - !J-l llONOURAl\l.E MEMm.m: Inaudible. MR. :(EARY: The 1t1inister did fire him . The government firecl him .

Sir, there was nothing in that report to hang your bat on , nothinj! to sholl that the morale of t'1e staff of t he l!orl'.l'len' s Compen sati on noard was at an all time low • .t\nd who said it was at an nll. time low? Who said? 2472

!larch 27, 1975 Tape 828 (Morning) PK - 1 llR. NMRY: Who was the one who wrote the letter that triggered the O'Neill inquiry? AN UON . MEMBER: I did. 11R. NEARY: The minister ·wrote the letter. Well,who wrote the minister? Table the documents and show maybe the insurrection was caused by one of the gentlemen who was appointed recently to that board: AN HON . !!EMBER: i'lR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: I appointed it. The minister appointed it. On whose request? Inaudible. Was the minister acting on gossip 1 hearsay? Did he have a col!Dllunication from the staff of the department?

Or was the minister advised to take the long way around to get rid of these, to fire these members of the Workmen's Compensation Board? Did the minister have anything in writing from the staff? Did the minister? Not answering it. Well if the minister does have anything in writing from the staff would he table it in this honourable House? Because I am of the opinion, Mr. Chairman, that the honourable minister may have 1,een conned into _thinking there was a morale problem. /\.N JION. MEMBER: Inaudible. 1-lr,. NEARY: ------ Mr.

Chairman, if there is any documentation, if there is any correspondence, if there were any discussions then I think the minister 7 in man fashion,because of the reputation of these members who were fired,should stand in this honourable House and be decent and honourable enough to say where these complaints originated from. HR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Chairman, to a point of order, please. Number one, the present Minister of Hanpower and Industrial Relations was not the minister at the time and,nwnber two, I was the minister at the time and the word " fired" was never used. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, that is not a point of order. That is a matter of opinion between two members. Sir, and the member - lfil. Cll/\.IRHAN: (Dunphy): Order, please'. The Chair will decide what the point of order is. I have to agree with the honourable Member for 2473

March 27, 1975 Tape 828 (Norning) PK - 2 Bell Island that was a matter of opinion between two members. MR. N:EARY: Thank you, Your Honour. Mr. Chairman, if there were any correspondence or any discussions or any communication between the minister, and,Hr. Chairman - I hope the Jlinister of Transportation and Communications realizes that this is the minister now who is answering for the estimates of this department, for ~iving the report.

You know, the Minister of Transportation and Communications can get irritated all he likes, but the minister> whether he is there only a couple of months or six months or a year, has to answer for the action of his predecessor. AN HON. MEtIBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: We have not been able to get the information from his predecessor. I am asking this minister now in all fairness, in all decency to these gentlemen who were apparently, in my opinion, Sir, fired by the administration, to tell us where the complaints originated from. Because, !1r.

Chairman, as I said a few minutes ago the insurrection may have been caused by one of the gentlemen who was appointed recently, Maybe he was looking for the job himself. And, Mr. Chairman, will the political appointments now made by the minister and the administration, will these political appointments improve the morale? Will it salve over - AN HON. MEMBER: It will. MR. NEARY: It will. I see. Now, Mr. Chairman, because this administration makes the political appointment everything is okay. The morale of the staff is now at an all time high, skyrocketed, it is gone up overnight. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: Yes, Sir. Well,only time will tell, Sir. We will wait and see. In the meantime, Sir, the minister did not tell us whether these gentlemen had been pensioned or not. Have they been pensioned? AN HON. MEf·ffiER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No, I want the minister to hear this because it is quite important. Maybe the minister does not worry about people's reputations. Maybe we are - 2474

March 27, 1975 AN IION. tlEMlll!R: ?iR. NEAkY: Tape 828 (tlorning) PK - 3 Inaudib le. Maybe the character assassination is gone deeper than we think, Sir . Were these gentlemen ,,.ensioned? How many were pensioned? \,,.']lat kind of deals were made with these gen tlemen? I heard a rumour, l!r. Chairman, but I doubt very much if it was true, but I wan-t to hear it from the minister's lips that it is not l that one of the gentleme n of the Boa.rd was given - AN llON. MEMBER: HR. NEARY: repeatin g. AN HON. MEHBER: HR. !ll'.ARY: AN !ION. ME!·IBER: MR. NEARY: You should not repeat it.

No, I will repeat it, because it should bear If it is just a rumour you should not repeat it . Well , it is little more than a rumour. Inaudible. That a deal was made, Sir, with one of the gentlemen µ·ensioned, that the gove rnment would give him a pension providing he would never run in politics in this Province. HON. ~!filffiERS: Inaudible. MR . NF.ARY: Honourable members, Sir, can laugh all they like but it is a pretty serious matter . AN IION. MEMBER: If you say . 2475

March 27, 1975 MR. NEARY: Tape 829 (morning) IB-1 I would suhmit, Sir, that at least two out of three of these memhers of the board received a pension and the third one did not. The third one1up to this moment, to my knowledge 1 has not been given a satisfactory answer concerning a pension. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY : Well, I am not sure. I have not heard the minister. Tam only stating what I think. I want to hear the minister. I want to get this matter out in the open here on the floor of the House. When I hear what the minister has to say about it, maybe I wi 11 have a few more words ahout it.

Now, let me see what else. Oh yes, the minister has sort of brushed over all these controversial, all these important matters that I have raised, Sir, in the last couple of days in this honour;ihle !louse, and then went on to manpower training. In typical Tory fashion, following the example set by the Leader of the Administration and the Minister of Fisheries and the Minister of Justice and the Minister of Industrial ·nevelopment, following in their example, decided to take another cut, another swipe at Ottawa.

The minister told us about all the ills and about all the weaknesses in the Canadian Government's Canada 'Manpower Treining Programme. That was supposed to he .1ustification, "Mr. Chainnan, for the minister himself setting up another empire, another hureaucracy down in his own rlepartment. That was supposed to be his justification. That was supposed to be his key for the Provincial Government entering into the field of manpower training.

The minister told us that all of these progral"lllles developed by Canada Manpower are foisted on the Province and the Province really does not have any say in how they are run and so forth. Well, Sir, T hac! the opportunity in the last twenty-four hours to speak to a certain gentleman who looks at Newfoundland prohably from the vantage point of \vellington Street in Ottawa. I had the opportunity, Sir, to sit down with this honourable gentleman and discuss this matter of manpower training and how the Province felt about their 2476

"arch 27. 1075 Tape 829 (morning) Manpower Training Programme. I was rather amazed and shocked to find out that only thP day hefore the Minister of Manpower had lashe~ out at the Government of Canada for the kind of a Manpower Training Programme they WPre running, and then, Sir, I picked up the paper the next day and here is the announcement and the picture of the minister signing a new agreement with the Government of Canada for $10 million for training, manpower training in this Province. ~•R. EVANS: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: I wish the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations would he a little more specific, would tell us where the weaknesses IB-2 are because I have some stronp, feelings on manpower training. I, myself, a few weeks ago, Sir, wrote the Minister of Manpower and Iunnigration, the honourable Mr. Andras, showing some of the weaknesses in their Manr,m-•er Training Programme.

Rut, Sir, the impression that I got) rightly or wrongly, is that the weakness is on the part of the Province and not the Government of Canada, that these courses that are run in the. district vocational schools, Sir, and in the College of Trades are recommended hy none other than the Minister of Hanpower and Industrial Relations and his colleagues, the •~inister of Education and the administration. That is why, Mr. Chairman, we are running twelve to fourtPen electrical courses in this Province. That is why, Mr. Chairman, there is duplication of activities in our vocational schools.

If '!.1P keep on the way we are going, Sir, we will have more welders and more electricians than we need in this Province. We will have them running out of our ears. At the same time, 'Ir. Chairman, while we are running twelve and fourteen of these hasic electrical courses in our schools, while the Government of Canada is pumping in millions an~ millions of dollars into manpower training every year into this Province, we hear about one of the biggest employers in Newfoundland going 2477

March 27, 1975 Tape no. 830 Page 1 - mw overseas, over to Europe, to recruit skilled tradesmen. And these courses are being operated and Canada Manpower will purchase the seats on the recommendation of the Province. There is where the weakness lies, Sir. No wonder the Minister of Manpower is trying to get the Manpower training part of his department back on the rails. Mr. Chairman, I would like to find out the minister's view on granting journeymen licences or certificates.

There is some sort of a weird idea, Sir, I do not know how it came about, but I suppose the academics are responsible for it, there is some kind of a weird idea that you have to take an exam, that you have to go and sit down, and if you cannot express yourself on paper yourself, you can bring in your son or your daughter or your relative or your friend who can express themselves and you give them the answer, and they fill the answer in, and you may or may not pass your exam. I do not know where this idea originated from, Sir, that you have to sit down and write an exam.

I would like to see all the exams done away with. If a man, Sir, has ten or fifteen years practical experience, working at his trade, and he can read and write and he can follow instructions, he can read instructions, if he is a mechanic and he is told to go out and put a light switch dimmer in a car, and he can read the instructions and he knows how to put that in, why should he be forced to sit down and wtite an exam? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). JIR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: Why should he? I beg your pardon? (Inaudible). Why should he, Sir, if he is qualified?

He should be able to come in and say, look, I have got my ten or fifteen years or three years, whatever you need, to qualify for that trade, why should he be forced to get over this hurdle, this obstacle that frightens the life out of half the people, and we got some pretty good tradesmen in this Province working in their 2478

March 27, 1975 Tape no. 830 Page trade today who have never written an exam but companies would never get rid of them, because they are some of their top men. 2 - mw In a lot of cases, they can hardly read and write. But I believe that a person should be able to read instructions and follow instructions. I would like to get the minister's ,,iews, Sir, on that. Why not do away with the exams altogether?

And when a man appears before the board or before the Director of Apprenticeship Training or whoever is responsible for this Manpower training say yes, sir, you have the proof that you have your three years served, you have your five years, you have your ten years, you have affidavits to prove that, you have letters of reco111111endation, you have your letters from your boss and from the company you work for, great, here is your certificatetinstead of frightening the life out of the poor old fellow and making him sit down in some very poorly ventilated room, probably with the heat turned up full volume with the perspiration rolling off the poor old fellow, with his hands rough, where he has been out under a grader or a bulldozer and can hardly hold a pen in his hand, who worked fifteen or twenty years at his trade and then force him to sit down and write an exam.

What kind of foolishness, Sir, is this? I would like to see all exams done away with. MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: When did that rule come into effect? That rule, Sir, has been into effect now for a considerable period of time. MR. DOODY: department? MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: Was the honourable member ever minister of that Yes, I certainly was. It did not change. And my views are well-known. My views are well-known on this and other matters. So, Sir, it is not fair to lash out at the Government of Canada for their Manpower Training Programme when we, ourselves, in this Province, are to blame.

We are to blame, Sir. 2479

-~ March 27, 1975 Tape no. 8.30 Page 3 - mw The blame should be laid right at the minister's own doorstep. The minister bas not even taken the trouble to figure out the Manpower needs iii this Province. And we are training people at our vocational schools and our College of Trades, Sir, in subjects, in professions, in trades that have no relationship whatsoever to the workaday world, none at all, and never get a job a lot of them, because the minister has not taken the time to put his research people to work, to go out and find out what the real needs are for skilled tradeSllleu in this Province.

If the.re were needs, Sir, we would not hear on radio and television where the Iron Ore Company of Canada is over in Europe recruting skilled tradesmen. And we have had about 2480

March 27, 1975 Tape No . 831 NM - 1 ten years now, we have had nine or ten years, I would say, Sir, close on $1 billion has been spent in this Province on Manpower training over the last eight or ten years easy, $1 billion, easily the equivalent of the budget, the total budget for this year. $1 billion has been spent on Manpower training and we have to go over to Europe, one of our biggest employers has to go over to Europe and Mr .

Chairman, every day we are hearing about wildcat strikes, only the other day one down in Marystown, in the shipyards because they brought in pipefitters from Great Britian and a dispute arose between the union - MR. DOODY: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: All specializing my eyeball. Is the honourable minister trying to tell us that with our fifteen or seventeen vocational schools, College of Fisheries, University, College of Trades, that we have to go over to Great Britian to bring pipefitters and plumbers down to Marystown? MR. DOODY: Some particular type which may never be used again. MR.

NEARY: Well , train them here in this Province. Why go overseas and get them? MR. DOODY: It would not wait. MR. NEARY: They would not wait. The honourable minister is trying to tell me thatcropped up overnight, just like that. What about on the job training, has the minister ever heard of that? It just happened, overnight. They needed this specialist. Probably some buddy - MR. DOODY: Four buddies of mine,yes. MR.

NEARY: No, not buddies of the minister but probably some buddies of some of the other people that have been brought in from overseas, And over here at the Health Science Complex, you can hardly drive down, Sir, the Prince Philip Parkway here but they are lined up with their pickets out, picket lines set up, wildcat strikes. Why? Because they are bringing workers into Newfoundland when we have men in similar trades unemployed . It does not make very much sense to me, Sir. I do not think it makes very much sense to anybody. 2481

March 27, 1975 Tape No. 831 NM 2 Mr, Chairman, let me get this straight. I have nothing against Mainlanders, I have nothing against people coming in here with an English accent or a foreign accent, nothing at all against that, Sir. I would say probably that I would welcome these people with open arms but for one thing, Sir, but for one thing, that we have record unemplo}'lDent in this Province, we have the highest number of Newfoundlanders unemployed that we have ever had in our history.

I am sure, Sir, out of the 43,000 Newfoundlanders who are unemployed at chis moment that you could find three or four or half a dozen to go to work down in Marystown and over here at the Health Science Complex and down in Labrador City and other any place in Newfoundland that needs workers. The minister did not mention this at all in his introductory remarks. He just said oh, we are going to build up a big bureaucracy now, we are going to set up this empire called Manpower Training. The minister did not tell us what they were going to do, All he did was give Ottawa a flick.

Well 1when the minister is speaking in this debate, I hope, Sir, that he will tell us precisely, be a little more specific. Mr. Chairman, the minister, I know he is over there now with his hand under his jaw completely browned off with me because I am giving him the few flicks. AN HON. MEMBER: True and very interesting. MR. NEARY: Well I am glad the minister is interested because I want to find out about these matters. These are matters which concern every Newfoundlander. It is not the big things, Sir, that bother our people. Itis the little things,like I am raising here today.

It is the little things in life that count. The minister should know that, representing a rural district, an outport district. I hope the minister has not been carried away from hobnobbing around with the Townies, Sir 0 I hope the minister still has some touch with reality, some collDllunication with the ordinary people of this Province. The minister knows what I am talking about. I want to get the minister to stand in this House and tell us what it is, what kind of a training progr~e the minister 2482

March 27, 1975 Tape No. 831 NM - 3 is talking about, will it solve some of the problems and some of the weaknesses that l have mentioned today'l Will there be a better relationship and better co-operation between the Province and the Government of Can°ada? Ottawa, Mr, Chainoan, Ottawa is not exactly a bunch of angels either, There in Decemb.er, Mr. Chairman, and the House was open at the time and I put a few questions to the minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations about this $3.5 million that Ottawa 2483

March 27, 1975 Tape 832 (morning) rn-1 was going to throw into Newfoundland to train the chronically unemployed. The minister at the time told us, oh, we have the situation well in hand, nothing to worry about, things would straighten themselves out and I took his word for it.

Then I discovered, Sir, sometime in December that all the principals of the vocational schools all over Newfoundland and the principal of the College of Trades and Technology and the principal of the Fislierles r.oller,e, and all the manpower people, and God only knows who else, Sir, the minister's staff, people from Ottawa, all met over here at the Holiday Inn - after the minister telling me all the plans were complete - they all met over here at the Holiday Inn a few days later and were told that in this fiscal year $1 million would be spent. on this pilot project so-called, on this special training programme for the chronically unemployed.

The principals of the vocational schools 1and anyhody who had any common sense or knew what they were talking about said, look, there is no way you can spend that kind of money, $3.5 million. Ottawa has flung it at us. get lasting value from it. There is no way we can spend it, and We can spend it. We can be like a drunken sailor. We can go and spend the money. So, they were told, look, get bodies. Go and find bodies. We have to spend $1 million of the taxpayer's money. Cet the bodies in. We do not care how you get them in. So, they got them in, Sir.

They got them in some how or other,they managed to reach their quota. When I heard about this, Sir, I wrote ~r. Andras myself. I have the letter here in my files. It was not a very pleasant letter, I will tell you that. Then Mr. Andras wrote me back a reply. Re tried to, Mr. Andras - and I mentioned this to him yesterday and I am not divulging any confidential conversation. I mentiored this to him yesterday - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: - that they sent the head of the manpower organization in Newfoundland to see me. He tried to pick my brains. Then, Sir, he 2484

March 27, 1975 Tape 832 (morning) IB-2 sat down and he wrote a reply. Maybe Mr. Andras changed a full stop or a comma or a semicolon or dotted an (

i) or crossed a (t), but basically it was the reply that was sent by the head of the Canada Manpower Organization in Newfoundland. Hut, I am not surprised at that, Sir, although Mr. Andras is probably one of the more active politicians in Ottawa, in the Government of Canada. Nevertheless, I told Mr. Andras I was disappointed that I got this typical civil service reply. But, anyway, Sir, the programme :Is under way now, and I do not want to be a pessimist, Hr. Chairman, I do not want to be a pessimist. There will be no lasting value from that programme for the people of this Province, Sir.

It is money down the drain. What bums me up is that the money could be better spent. We could be running and creating jobs for our unemployed Newfoundlanders with this kind of money, $3.5 million. How many jobs would that provide? ~r. Chairman, what made me suspicious of the programme, I went into the school on Bell Island which is being run in the basement of the Canadian Legion and this was a course for upgrading in carpentry. When I went in there were fifteen or seventeen students in that course. I looked around and I saw a journeyman welder there.

I said to him, hello what are you doing in here doing upgrading in carpentry. Well, boy, he said, it is a nice, warm place and it is a good place to get :In for the winter and they are paying us a few dollars for going to school. I saw another fellow there who I knew was in the process of writinp his exam to become a journeyman welder. I said, well, what are you doing here. He said, well, I just wanted to make a few things for the kids. AN HONOURARLE !-ffi}fHEP: l':f.d you report these incidents? HR. NEARY: Yes, I certainly did in my letter to Mr. Andras. That is what triggered it.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Did you name them? MR. NEARY: Name them? Yes, Sir-, 2485

March 27, 1975 Tape 833 (Morning) PK - 1 I am disgusted with the honourable gentleman - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: AN HON, MEMBER: MR. NEARY: No, no, n9, Hr. Chairman, it is not their fault. Inaudible. They were whipped in by Canada Manpower. Whipped in by whor,? Canada Manpower, in co-operation with the minister arid the administration. AN HON. MEMBER: I was wondering about the time •••• MR. NEARY: But, Mr. Chairman, I pointed these weaknesses out to Mr. Andras but somehow or other the civil servants are able to justify these things. And Mr.

Andras is so far removed from the scene, from where the action is - 'MR . OOOnY; did he make out? MR. NEARY: AN HON. ME}IBER: MR. NEARY: A man who came down to pick your brains, how No, he did not come down, he is already here. Inaudible. Well, Sir, I do not know whether he learned anything or not but there were a few things on which he had to agree, and one was the Manpower Needs Committee.

We have a Manpower Needs Committee in this Province made up of civil servants. !low under that Committee there is maybe a subcommittee, maybe some representative of labour-and management, but on the main Committee itself, Sir, and the minister will get up;I know,in a few minutes and tell us, oh, Bowaters are represented on it and Labour is represented on it, but in actual fact, Sir, in the day to d!jly decisions of that Committee they are not, and I say "not" and the minister can tell us what he likes, they are not represented on that Committee, Sir.

It is made up of a crowd of civil servants and it should be changed, and it is up to the minister to take the initiative to get it changed. They are over there, I believe, in the Gorman Butler Building over on O'Leary Avenue, sitting there behind their desks instead of getting out and going around the Province and finding out what the real needs are, where the employment opportunities are. And concentrate 2486

~'.arch 27, 1975 Tape 833 (Horning) PK - 2 more on on-the-job training instead of whipping people into the schools to get Grade X a:1d Grade XI) 11hich they will never achieve. Get them out and put them to 'W'ork at their trade. Let them learn the trade on the job. Never mind trying to force Grade XI down their throats. And everybody in this honourable House know~, Sir, what I am saying is true. It makes great sense. A lot of our people, Sir, will never, never, never be able to get Grade XI. It is not their fault, they are not stunned. They can do, they can think,and they can work with their hands.

But because you do not get Grade IX, X, or XI bring them aside and let them become unemployed for the rest of his life - he may be an excellent heavy equipment operator, an excellent mechanic, an excellent welder - no all he needs, Mr. Chairman, is what 'W'e used to call a few years ago, if Your Honour will remember, the Four R's - or the Three R's. All he wants, Sir, is to know how to read and write and a little bit of 'rithmetic. That is all you need. MR. !URPFIY: Is that a fact? Well my honourable friend does not have very much more than that, and he is - look, Mr. Chairman, - MR. ~'[{JRPHY: }lR. NEARY: MR.

MURPHY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: ------ point I am making. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: ----- The Sixth nook. Aw, he has got Tom's Dog. That is all right. Inaudible. Inaudible. (Inaudible) When the dog barks the honourable gentleman - Mr. Chairman, let me - no, Sir, that is not the Well,why do you not make it? The point I am making is this, Sir, My honourable friend heads up a department,pending $50 million this year. My honourable friend is responsible to the taxpayers and the people of this Province for the operation of that department. AN IION • MEMBER: Hear! Hear! ---------- 2487

March 27, 1975 Tape 833 (Morning) PK - 3 MR. NEARY: My honourable friend, Sir, I would say, did not r;et any further than Grade VI in school? MR. MURPHY: MR. NEARY: MR. MURPHY: MR. NEARY: MR. MURPHY: It was the Sixth Book, it was Grade XI. The Sixth Book was - There were no grades in those days The Sixth Book was Grade XI? It is equivalent •... MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, I would say this is not detrimental to the minister. I am congratulating the minister. MR. MURPHY: And one of the cleverest men to ever come out of St. Patrick's Hall. MR. NEARY: MR. MURPHY: MR. NEARY: MR. MURPHY: MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR.

NEARY: The minister is? Inaudible. Well, Mr. Chairman, the minister got to Grade VI - I was not going to University. No, The minister got to Grade VI at that time. No, the Sixth Book. All right, the minister got to the Sixth Book at that time. Nowhow many men does the minister know that got to Grade VI the same time he did or Grade VII or - MR. MURPHY: There was no Grade VII. MR. NEARY: Well, Grade X. MR. MURPHY: You cannot compare with today. MR. NEARY: Well , how many men does the minister know today are working at Trades? The minister happened to - AN HON. MEMBER: To get into the fat. MR.

NEARY: Wellithe minister got into the fat, yes, he - MR. MURPHY: A hard worker .•. MR. NEARY: Yes, the minister is a hard worker - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: through his own initiative he worked his way,_ he got tobehead of a department that is spending $50 million, and probably 1,200 or 1,300 employees. How many men does the minister know - how 2488

11:n:ch 27, 1975 Tape 833 C-!orning) PK - 4 m:iny men do other menbers of th:ls Uouse know that only have Grade Vl or the SiKth Book> the same as the minister had> that cann.oc i;et :l jour neyman's licence because they have not got Grade IX, X, or XI? MR. :-!URP!f{: That is the tragic part of it. HR . NEJ\RY: That is the tragic part of it . IR. ~ILIRPIIY: ... they do not give it to them, that is what I mcnn . :m. NEARY: No, Sir, [ am saying give it to them. The minister ls not listeni np, to me. MR. :!lIRPIIY: !tR. !/~ MR. ~!URPIIY : :-IR • '.!EARY : Inaudible. No, Sir , no, I am just saying the opposite.

Inaudible . I am just saying the opposite . That these men should not be forced to bow down to some civil servant who says, you have to write an exam . The minister never had to ..-rite an exam to become a minis ter_,d1d he. to he ad ut> a department? AN HO~. MEMBER: Inaudible . MR . NEARY: But we can see that he is minister, and that he is 2489

March 27, 1975. Tape 834 f?ll - 1 running a department. NJ HONOURABLE EEMBER: So why not give these - what I am sayinr, - Inaudible . MR. CKURMAN (Dunphy): Order! 1-!R. NEARY: Why not sayl why not give these people their certificates. }!R. CHAIRMA."'1 (Dunphy): Order, please! The honourable gentleman has exceeded his forty-five minutes. MR. NEARY: Well, I will have another forty-five later on. Mr. Chairman, that brings me to the end of my few preliminary remarks and now, Sir, I will listen to what the honourable - A.."'1 HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. HR.

NEARY: No, I will listen - .i\11" HONOURABLE }ffiMBER: Inaudible. M.R.. NEARY: No, I do not. I am getting hoarse now and I got a few more important matters to raise. I will listen to what the minister has to say and if he not too rough, Sir, maybe we will be able to go through the estimates item by item, but if he gives us a hard time, well, we will just have to fight back, Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN (Dunphy): Order, please! MR. MAYNARD: I am disappointed the honourable member had no more time. I was going to get another cup of coffee.

Let me see if I got some of the points that he has raised over the past couple of speeches. On the last point that the honourable member was talking about ~m. CHAIRMAN (Dunphy): Order, please! ?!R.. MAYNARD: - a few minutes ago, the matter of taking exams 0 I do not think any jurisdiction or any group of people would agree with doing away with exams as such.

There is a progra1'1111e, a policy in effect with the government now that if a person does not have the ability to write an exam, a written exam, the possibility is there 1and it has been done, of the person taking an oral exam, Theperson does not necessarily have to have gone to vocational school or university of whatever. Generally we say 2490

''arc h 27 , 1975. Tape 834 Rll - 2 that if the !)erson has five years experience :i.n a riarticular trnde, they can come in and take an exam, either written or orally, and get n certification of their competency in that particular trade, if, of course, they pass the exam. I do not thin] , it uould he. quite fair or very appropriate to give a reason certification if they do not know anything about the trade.

The honourable llember for Bell Island was suggesting to do away with exams altogether. 'foll, that would mean we could make everybody in Newfoundland carpenters and everyone in Newfoundland welders and everyone in Newfoundland electricians. That is sort of a stupi<l argument, Hr. Chairman. But we can and we do give certificates of competency to people who are not able to write exams. There are some people in trades, especially in the automotive trades that have been practicing the trade for a number of years. They do not have any education, any formal education,as such.

I thinl: it was about a year ago that my colleague throught Cahinet l,rour,ht in a policy whereby these people could go in and take an oral exam and be able to receive some certificate of competency. nne of the other points was that when I spoke the other day, I lasl,e.cl out at r;anada Hanpower. Mr. Chairman, I did not l:rnh out ot r.anada ~fanpo~1er. I did not lash out at anyone. I sur,gested and I put forward the idea that there are some problems in the manpower training schemes in the Province. I talked to ~!r.

Andras yesterday, a very good conversation with him;and he is well :wmre of hil"lse.lf t:hat there are problems that we have to overcome in the C1mada Hanpower trainin g programmes. nne Qf the prohlems is tlrnt the l'rovince is not prepared ,or '-,,rn not prepnrP.d itself in the past to take full advantage of t'1e various pror,rrurones that an, 11.vailahle, has not had the nrop<"r innut into the pro,rammen when they :ire ],einr, planned, ,,hen t h f':V are being d evised. That is a pro hlem l!e recor,nize 2491

~larch 27, 1"75 . Tare 834 ruJ - .1 11nd it is a rroble:Ft we are tryin~ to overcome. We are not goinr, to set ur any lary.e um.•1.eldy hureaucracy to do this. tt l !; a matter of l'lllybc a half dozen people at the Most tll.,t c:m co­ ordinate our efforts on the provincial scene to make sure that any money that is coming into the training programmes is adcinistered properly, is put in the rir,ht rlaces and is doing the job.

There may be problems with tre snccial proira=c ~-e have now1 and it was a programme that was conceived in n little bit of haste but consid erin~ the time period that ,-ms allowed for pl~g and inplecientation of that pror,ramne, t ht' y,corle who are doinr, it are cloinr, it very well . If there are people in school or in tlassroocs now such n!. the honourahle !'lenhr.r mentioned, I think we are going to find that type of thing no matter how well a progrwnr.,e is pl anned . 2492

March 27, 1975 Tape 835 (morning) IB-1 We have a very great difficulty in eliminating all the people who want at times to sit in a classroom because they do not feel they should do anything else. But that is going to be a problem that is with us no matter who devises the programme or how much thought is put 1nto it. You are always goin~ to find a certain number of people who are going to take advantage of the programme for the sake of the programme itself or for the sake of the few dollars that they can get hy sitting do~m. That is unfortunate, hut it is a fact of life.

Given the amount of time that the officials had to prepare the programmes for 1974-1975 to spend approximately $700,000 of the special allowance, I think they have done a tremendous job. I did not at the time that the honourable member asked the question about the special programme, I did not indicate that all the programmes or uses of the money had heen worked out. I did not say that. What I said at the time was that the officials were working on it. As a matter of fact, the day that the question was asked the people were meetinp: in lloliday Inns and they did work out a fairly ~ood programme.

I have the list of the various courses here. I am sure that they are well-known to anyone who wants to look at the list. There is a lot of upgrading going on that is going to have a lasting henefit to the Province. Now, j_f there were some mistakes in the first year, we have a chance to correct them in the second year, and the second year's funding on the special programme is some $2.5 million. Tni ti.ally, there was the reluctance by the Canada Manpower people to inclcde social assistance recipients in the plan.

That reluctance has heen overcome and people receiving social assistance can now become part of the programme or take advantage of the programme the same as unemployment insurance recipients. There are going to he some special funds made available to assist these people in things like transportation and lunches, this sort of thing, extra expenses that they have over and above what 2493

March 27, 1975 Tape 835 (morning) they would have normally. So, the faults of the programme that were evident have been worked on and the Canada '1-'anpowc.r people and the minister are quite willing to be flexible on all aspects of the programme. So, we are certain that in the seconJ year we can get much more benefit out of it, That is not to say that we will not get any benefit from the first year, Mr. Chairman. We certainly will. Any progra1llllle that concentrates on upgrading the skills of Newfoundlanders is certainly a lasting benefit to the Province.

If we are to take advantage of the jobs that are made available in construction, large projects, we have to have the people that are adequately trained to do it. Some of these people who are in training programmes have the basic skills, but they need the final touch in order to have the ability to get a job in any place at any time. This special programme is geared towards these people who may need just that little extra push to get them into the permanent labour force. I think it is a good progrannne.

The regular training IR-2 programme that we signed yesterday was some $10 million with an option of another $10 million for the second year. That, plus the $2.5 million special programme is going to give us a fair amount of leeway in training people in this caning year. I think it will be spent wisely. I do not see any reason why it can not be. The honourable member for Bell Island is having very serious doubts ahout the ability of the department in this sort of thing.

Well, I can assure him that if the minister by some stretch of the imagination may not hav~ the ability as he says, if he is right in that case, well then I am sure the people in the department have the ability to be able to spend the money wisely 1and they are doing that and doing it very well. Let me see if I can see some of the other points that were brought up. Oh, yes, the large bureaucracy thing. Again I say that we are not looking at a large bureaucracy in the Manpower Division. We are certainly not going to duplicate anything that Canada Manpower 2494

March 27, 1975 '!'ape R35 (morning) Ill-3 is now cloinp:. What we are going to try to do is come up with the policies that will complement the Canada ~anpower Programme and 2495

March 27, 1975 Tape No.836 NM - 1 I would not envision any great increase in the staff of the department. Maybe a half a dozen or so in the Manpower Division would give us the staff to adequately do the job and to co-ordinate the progranunes that we have worked out with the federal government. On the Worlanen's Compensation Board, Mr.

Chairman, I was the minister who initiated the O'Neill Royal Connnission into the workings of the Worlanen's Compensation Board and I did that, And my own personal analysis of the problems that were evident with the Workmen's Compensation Board, the morale of the staff and this sort of thing, there was a considerable amount of correspondence between various parties on the Worlanen's Compensation Board before the O'Neill Royal Connnission was appointed; I am not, or will I in the future, table any documents, any correspondence between myself and other parties based on the Worlanen's Compensation Board or leading up to the appointment of the O'Neill Royal Commission.

I have no intention whatsoever of tabling in this House now, or at any other time, confidential documents, and they are confidential documents. To say that I should table this correspondence, all this material, it would be the same as to suggestlwell that I should go and get all the Cabinet submissions now we have got downstairs and we should table them around the House too, and let everybody look at it too. You know11et the whole of Hewfoundland be a Cabinet. It is a request that just cannot be met and I am sure the honourable Member for Bell Island was not quite serious when he suggested that.

As a former member 6f Cabinet, certainly he cannot be serious. If he is 1well then I have more serious doubts than I had before about his mental capacity. But certainly there were problems. The O9 Neill Royal Commission found that there were problems. All of the findings of the O'Neill Royal Commission were not in the written report but there were eetings after that. It was found that the board needed to be changed, the Commissioners of the Board needed to be changed. That action was taken and the action was quite proper. There were no deals 2496

March 27, 1975 Tape No. 836 NM - 2 made with the former Commissioners of the Board and a new Board was subsequently appointed. As far as political appointments are concerned, I have a little bit of a problem, Mr. Chairman, in finding people in Newfoundand who are not either Liberal or Progressive Conservative, There are a few NDP. But I have a great deal of trouble finding people who are not affiliated with any party. And if I am going to - So I see nothing wrong whatsoever with appointing a person to the Workmen's Compensation Board that had some imput into the Progressive Conservative Party.

I would see nothing wrong with appointing someone who had some imput into the Liberal Party, that is a person's own - MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. MURPHY: Is the member's brother working at that department? MR. MAYNARD : Yes, the member's brother is working over there. I am sure, I doubt very much if he ran for the Progressive Conservatives at any time. MR. MURPHY: Although he might have. He might be the sensible one in the family. MR. MAYNARD: Oh yes, that is a possibility. But I have no - MR. NEARY: That was an open co111D1ent - MR.

MAYNARD': I have no apologies whatsoever to make for the appointments that were made to the Workmen's Compensation Board. The people who were appointed are quite capable of doing the job, well respected in their fields,and I am sure they will administer the affairs of the Board in a very efficient and proper manner.

They are appointed, As for whether or not there was a consultation with labour and management before the appointments were made, representing labour and management)if I can find the note that I had here on the statement I made the other day, no we did not solicit the suggestions of the Federation of Labour or any other trade union organization in the Province• Neither did we solicit the suggestions or recommendations of the Canadian Manufacturers Association or the Canadian Construction Association or anyone like that, or the Board of Trade, 2497

March 27, 1975 Tape no. 837 Page 1 - mw and I did not indicate at any time, Mr. Chairman, that these appointments were suggested by any of these groups. I did not at any time, I said that we are adding two part-time co11111issioners, one, representative of labour and one, representative of employers. There was no suggestion whatsoever that these were reco11111ended to me by any labour organization or any employer group, Again, I have no apologies whatsoever to make for making that arbitrary decision.

You know, I think that is what government is for, to make a decision, Sure, I will go to the Federation of Labour, and I will go to the Board of Trade and those people, and I will talk to them, and I will solicit their comments and their recOllllllendations and this sort of thing, but I do not think it is necessary for government, every time it wants to make a decision, to go out and say, well can I make this decision? ean I do this? Do I have your blessing? If we got a government that is going to be run by outside forces, well 1 then we are not going to have a government. We might as well scrap it. AN HON.

MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. MAYNARD: And these people - I am positive, Mr. Chairman, that the trade labour movement is not going to complain about Mr. Bill Woodford being on the board. I am positive of that. And I am also positive that the Board of Trade or the Canadian Manufacturing Association or whoever is not going to complain about Mr. John Murphy being on the board. As a matter of fact, we had a call from the Atlantic Director of the Canadian Manufacturing Association complimenting us on the choice of members, complimenting us on the choice of members.

They are not upset because it is not their suggestion or anything like that. The person is a quite capable person and they are quite happy with it, So the honourable member is trying to make an issue where there is no issue 1 and it is completely unnecessary. However, I am sure he will keep on making the issue. 2498

March 27, 1975 Tape no. 837 Page 2 - mw As for the Buchans Task Force, yes, Mr. Chairman, it has been a long time in coming. The honourable member asked me a question about it today and then he got up and said that there have been two or three meetings of the Buchans Task Force and obviously the member is not keeping up very well on what is going on in the Province either. I called the first meeting in Buchans. I attended it myself. Some twenty people, representing the union, the town, the company, the government, the development association, pretty well all facets of life in the community, attended the meeting.

We discussed the possibility of setting up a task force. I said at that time that I should be back in two or three weeks, In the interim, the Premier asked me to try to mediate the dispute with the trawlermen and my deputy minister and I spent, literally, four weeks at that, and we did nothing else in the interim. So the second meeting has been delayed.

However, during that time we have gotten the approval of Cabinet for the setting up of the Task Force 1for the compensation of the Task Force, and on Monday, hopefully, I should be able to annouce the three people from government who will be on the main Task Force and what the compensation 6f the Task Force is. I regret that it has been several weeks since the first meeting. I apologize to the people in Buchans for that, but I assure you that it is not due to a lack of concern. It is just the fact that we have not been able to set the mechanism going for getting the Task Force off the ground.

I was given the responsibility of setting up the Task Fo