Manitoba Hansard — 18 Jilne 1971 (Sitting 81, 29th Legislature, 3rd Session)

29-3-81

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10:00 o'clock, Friday, Jilne 18, 1971 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. 949 MR . SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Re ports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports; Intro duction of Bills. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (Leader of the Opposition) (River Heights): Mr. Speaki:ir, my question is for the First Minister.

I wonder whether he could indicate to this House at what point in the proceedings we will have an opportunity to discuss the ratification or non- I ratification of the constitutional changes. 1 MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. j HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): I'm not sure I follow the honowrable member's question entirely, but as the sequence that was outlined at Victoria and agreed upon in a general way by the First Ministers, ! could report the following.

The draft Charter, ¥e · proposed Constitutional Charter, as it's called, is now being brought before the Cabinetsl� f the respective provinces and of the Fed. eral Government by the First Ministers and each or the provinces and the Federal Government are to indicate within a period of ten to fourteen da[ys from now whether they will in fact accept thetn and accordingly present them to their resp�ctive Legislature and Parliament for ratification.

Assuming that all goes well, then that w. ould l mean that this fall and next spring, by the end of next spring each of the Provincial Legislatures will have had the proposed Charter before it. Now if the honourable member would like a further specification I'll try to answer. J MR . SPIVAK: In the event that we do recess - and this has been indicated outside t e House but not in the House - would it be the intention of the government to deal with this Jatter this fall, during this session. I MR . SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, you know, that remains a distinct possibility, but since some of the provinces have indicated, the likelihood is that they will present the proposed Charter to their .legislatures at the next regular session. I take that to mean that in the d1ase for example of Alberta, Saskatchewan, British Columbia, and the Maritime Legislatures �s well, that this would mean next February or March. The hope is that whichever way it's done that the process could be finalized by July lst, 1972. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR . STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr.

Speaker, I see the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources is not in his seat and I will place the question to the First Minister. Wpuld the First Minister advise the House whether there are any further resignations from the senior staff of Manitoba Hydro. _ I MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Did I understand my honourable friend correctly? If it has to do Tith Hydro, why is he directing it to the Minister of Mines and Resources? MR •. PATRICK: Well then, to the First Minister. Would he advise the House _.if . . thele are any further resignations from Manitoba Hydro by the senior staff.

" MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. _ _ MR . SCHREYER: Not to my knowledge. " - MR . PATRICK: I wonder if the First Minister would undertake to check with the Chair- man and advise the House, or the members of the House. MR . SCHREYER: I shall advise the honourable member in the normal colirse. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. _MR . SPIVAK: My question is for the Attorney-General. I wonder whether he can in i cate to the House .whether there is any stiidy at the present time by his department of any ew attempt by organized crime to enter into Manitoba. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable the Attorney-General; HON. A.H.MACKLING, Q,C, (Attorney-General) (St. James): If the Honourable Leader of the Opposition has any particulars .I'd .be interested i11 hearing them, Mr. Speaker, . becahse I have heard of no new developments, MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition.

1950 June 18, 1971 MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the First Minister. I understand that the employees have ratified the pay increase, Manitoba Government employees have ratified the pay increase, and I wonder whether the First Minister can indicate in the Estimates where the approximate $7-1/2 million of increase is located. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): If I may reply to the ques tion, Mr. Speaker. The employees have, as the member indicates, ratified the agreement internally. The agreement has not however as yet been signed.

I anticipate that it will be signed one day next week. As far as the amounts of money in the Estimates are concerned, or the provision for the $7 million as an approximation, it is normal to bring in a special warrant to cover it so that it's through the Estimates as a whole, and of course at the time of compiling the Estimates, giving consideration to the amounts of money, we were not knowledgeable at that time as to what any increase might be. MR. SPIVAK: I take it that with the other information that has been supplied to the House in terms of the supplementary Estimates that the deficit then ••• MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please. The honourable member knows very well he's to place his questions, not to make statements. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister or the Deputy House Leader can indicate to this side whether the deficit then would be approximately $9 million based on the information that's been supplied to the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I find that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition's calculations of matters budgetary isn't very useful nor very accurate, but in any case, Mr.

Speaker, I just remind my honourable friend that the procedure we're following now is identical in respect to this matter as it was in 1969, that when we came to office in the summer of '69 we had to make post hoe provision for the additional increment in salary pursuant to the nego tiated agreement, so that my honourable friend really has nothing untoward to try and seize hold of. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the First Minister.

Did Manitoba request any of the conditions, the additional conditions that Quebec made at the Constitutional Conference in Victoria on behalf of Manitoba as well? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR, SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I think it would be necessary to ask the Honourable Member for Rhineland to repeat his question. I am not sure that I caught every nuance of it. Would he repeat it please? MR. FROESE: Quebec asked for certain additional considerations at this conference. Did Manitoba also request that some of these considerations also be given to Manitoba? MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, Manitoba's position and participation at the conference was one of concern for the future of our country, one of desire to have the Constitution patri ated and accordingly we were I think quite accommodating. Nevertheless, we did put forward certain points of view and certain specific proposals, some of which were accepte d, some of which were rejected, some of which it has been agreed will be put high up on the agenda of the next and subsequent meetings of First Ministers.

Manitoba's position on most of the major items of the Constitution was quite close to that of .our sister provinces in the west and in fact most other provinces. _ MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. HON. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce and ask him if he is in a position to provide the House with a personal assessment of the relative success or failure of yesterday's mission to Ottawa on air policy, and also whether he can advise • • • MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

The question is one which would require a long state ment that should not come under the question period. The Minister can made a statement under the Ministerial Statements if he so desires. Order, please. If the honourable member would place an explicit question I'll entertain it. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Industry and Com merce if he will make a Ministerial Statement relating to yesterday's mission to Ottawa. MR. SPEAKER: Not under the question period. The Minister.

June 18; 1971 1951 HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, lwas just going to indicate that I will be pleased to make a statement on the next op portunity. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney General, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair • • • MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. We have an Order for Return first although the honour able member isn't in the House. The Honourable Minister of Labour. You may proceed, MR.

PAULLEY: Mr; Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney General, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Commit tee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. PAULLEY: I understand that we started the Estimates of the Department of Tour ism and Recreation and I suggest we continue. MR.

CHAffiMAN: Resolution No. 94, Minister's salary. The Minister of Tourism. HON. PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Tourism, Recreatfon and Cultural Affairs) (Dauphin): Mr. Chairman, before I attempt to make some replies to the honourable members who have spoken on the Estimates; some of their ideas and some of their questions, I certainly would like to thank the honourable members for some of their fine comments. I think I'll start from the north and work my way down to the south, I can assure the Honourable Member for Rhineland that I'll eventually get there.

I'm sorry that the Member for Churchill is not here; he was talking about the possibility of a travel library on the Hudson's Bay line. I might say, Mr. Chairman, that it sounds as though it is a very interesting idea and we certainly will be looking into that possibility and consider it when we are considering regional libraries. Insofar as the regional consultant for the north is concerned, we have appointed two such consultants and it is our hope that perhaps next year we will certainly try and fill in that posi tion.

An interesting comment was made by the Honourable Member for Churchill in regard to canoe routes. Mr. Chairman, I can hardly hear myself talk. I'm just wondering if honour able gentlemen are interested or not, because if they're not then I'll just sit down. MR. CHAffiMAN: Order, please. MR.

BURTNIAK: Insofar as the canoe routes is concerned I was quite interested .to hear his comments on it, but I want to say that we've had several studies on this particular question : • and we have received quite a bit of information for the printing of brochures on such things as canoe routes on the Grass River, the Upper Churchill and all waterways on the east side of Lake Winnipeg up to Berens River. So these brochures will be prepared in a very short time.

The question of Paint Lake always seems to be coming up, and I've noticed my _colleague the Honourable Minister of Transportation is here and perhaps he would be interested to know just what we have in mind over there. Considerable work has been undertaken during the course of the winter as most of us know. The parking area has been improved; some additfonal camping space has been provided; and more tables, washrooms, trash receptacles distributed and so on. A new road is under construction that will provide access to the new summer cot-_ tage subdivisions as well as to new camping and picnic areas. I say, Mr.

Chairman, l'm certain that this expansion will reduce the congestion that exists in that area because of the quick growth of that particular town - or should I say city. Somebody said here last,llight, making the comment that sometimes we do run into a number of difficulties because of_ expan., sion, becatise of growth and this is one of these problems.

Insofar as hydro services for that area, for the Paint Lake area is concerned, we have I might say, Mr • .Chairman, consulted with the hydro officers and we have been told that there are insufficient customers at the present time to warrant the extension at this time because _of the heavy subsidy support that would be necessary. However, ,the new cottage subdivision will

1952 June 18, 1971 (MR. BURTNIAK cont•d.) ••••• rectify that situation perhaps as early as next summer. Some cottage sites will be available within the month. This has been the question that the Honourable Member for Churchill asked in the House here a couple of days ago and he sort of elaborated on it a little bit more last night, and we'd say that these would be available, some of them will be available within a month and I expect to make the announcement on this in the near future. There is no change in the policy respecting cottage lots on the islands. There has been no change in that respect.

Our current demand however is for mainland property serviced by the road rather than on the islands, We have not had too many requests for people wanting to move out on the islands; they would rather stay on the mainland.

That's the informa tion that we have, but there has been no policy change in that at all, I'm also pleased to say that we have stationed a Parks Officer in the Thompson area and expect that this will ensure that our development is more responsive to local requirement, Insofar as the Spruce Woods is concerned, the Honourable Member f or Rock Lake had some interesting comments and questions to make on this particular area, I am not sure whether I understood the question properly or not, but I believe that he did say that there is, or he understood me to say that we were planning to enlarge the park.

That is not so, We do not plan on enlarging this park in particular, rather our acquisition program aims at acquiring the remaining properties lying within the park, It is our normal procedure to lease back to the original owner such lands that are not immediately required f or development purposes, In the lease arrangement we attempt to reduce, as much as park development will permit, any tenure complications for the lease, Now he mentioned something about some of the farmers there that are leasing some of the land for grazing, for pasture purposes, and I realize that it does become somewhat of a difficulty when the farmer does not know exactly how long his lease will be, he has to sort of wait from year to year, but actually I might say, Mr.

Chairman, to the Honourable Member for Rock Lake that we have five-year leases there and I think that that is perhaps a sufficient amount of time for the person to judge himself accordingly. I don't think that we have en countered too many problems there, although I do know of one case and I think that this is probably the same case that the honourable member was talking about. There was a bit of a problem, I must admit, because of the fact that somehow I think that perhaps -- I'm not sure whether he had a five-year lease or not but maybe it was from a year to year basis.

I'm not sure on that one, but I do know we have five-year leases there, so if that is the case in this particular instance where there is only a lease from year to year, we will certainly look into that because I realize that this does create a certain amount of anxiety on the part of that particular farmer. Insofar as the Rock Lake itself is concerned, I might say that we have -- I don't think that I can _add anything more to what the Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources said last night, We are certainly most interested in the area; I think it's a great potential for tourist and fish and so on.

And I might say, Mr. Chairman, to the honourable member, that the De partment of Mines and Resources and the Department of Tourism and Recreation do work very very closely together. As a matter of fact, I might say that all departments of this govern ment work very closely together, despite sometimes what we hear from the Opposition, but nevertheless we do work very closely together and we know exactly what the situation is and if there is anything we can do we will certainly look into it.

The Icelandic Church - I was very interested in those comments by the Member from Rock Lake, I must admit I have not seen the church myself but I am told by the honourable member, as well as some of my departmental staff, that it is a very interesting and a very good building actually in spite of its age, and perhaps the suggestion that the honourable member had made last night, we will certainly give it a good look and perhaps the possibility of moving the church into the park area might become a reality.

The Honourable Member for Roblin was concerned of course about the Asessippi Pro vincial Park and the Duck Mountain Provincial Park. Insofar as the Asessippi Provincial Park is concerned, work will be undertaken under our capital estimates, Briefly, I can say that the park will not be open until next year. Our development plans include completion of a 70 unit camping area, the beach frontage, a beach pavilion and rest rooms, boat launching and docking services.

Much of our work, road work I should say, will be completed shortly and the sewer and water and other sanitary installations by the way are nearing completion at the moment.

June 18, 1971 1953 (MR. BURTNIAK cont'd.) In the Duck Mountain Provincial Park, if you recall in my presentation ear.Her yesterday, I mentioned master plans are being drawn for this particular. park as. well as· others.

This plan will point out the future management and development direction fo us and I'm sure it in cludes specific recommendations for Singush, Childs and several of the other lakes within that area, and hopefully we can have these master plans available to u_s sometime early this fall, possibly September, In regard to seasonal camping at Falcon and West Hawk Lake, as I mentioned in my pre sentation, these sites will be phased out in 1972.

This has been found necessary to accommo date the growing numbers of campers who travel on the Trari.s Canada Highway, New sites are being developed as alternate locations for seasonal campers elsewhere in the Whiteshell on the Lac du Bonnet, at Grindstone Point in the Interlake area, Long term tenure arrangements will be available for campers at these particular locations. No changes are being considered at this time for campgrounds outside those on the.Trans Canada Highway.

The tourist advertising program, the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge I believe wanted to know in what way do we advertise in the neighbouring states to the south of us. The biggest program of course is radio, newspaper, magazine advertising as well as billboards. Also, last year we had an in-store promotion in Fargo, North Dakota, for the first time and we will repeat this again this year and it will be extended to Bismarck, North Dakota. As far as the conventions are concerned, I think I mentioned in my presentation that there were something like 38 major conventions here in the City of Winnipeg last year.

I don't have the figure at the moment as to how many may be held here in Winnipeg this year. How-· ever, I do believe that perhaps the Tourist and Convention Association of Manitoba - by theway whom we do support with a grant - may be in a position to answer that question and perhaps I'll be getting in touch with them and get that information for the honourable member insofar as how many are expected to be held this year. So far as the Canada Games are concerned, I might say that we did have several meet ings with the people from Brandon, including the mayor and some of the other interested persons.

We had hoped that perhaps this would become a reality, however, the Department of National Health and Welfare announced a

schedule for the Canada Games, which was made by the Honourable Mr. Munro several months ago, and the 1979 Canada Games are to be awarded to an eastern province. You know, we certainly would have been very very pleased to have . this type of thing happen here in Brandon, Manitoba, but apparently this is not to be. However, Manitoba is tentatively scheduled to hold the 1978 Canada Olympic trials but no information has been received about the nature of this particular event.

The Member for Souris-Killarney brought up a point, and I'm glad he did, insofar as the Pelican Lake is concerned, For some reason there was some misunderstanding insofar as certain rules were concerned, I don't know just exactly the details of it but apparently there was some misunderstanding there, and I might say to the honourable member that camping is not cancelled; we have since rectified the situation. The road through the Ninette recreation area will be surveyed and landscaped as soon as we can obtain legal ownership to the old highway right-of-way.

Negotiations on closing of the old highway are under way and the matter Should be resolved shortly. The other question which we have received some criticism: in the paper, in the press last year I believe, I thought that it was not valid criticism; I think it was more of a misunderstand ing rather than the fact. . The reforestration program, Mr. Chairman, is aimed at restoring new growth in an area where the vegetative cover is in decline. The process used in reforestra tion is approved by most forestry experts and the results are proving successful.

I might say that our staff met last fall with the local people who were concerned with the reforestation program and these operations have been suspended pending the further examination of plans , for this

section of the Turtle Mountain Provincial Park. We want to make sure that if there. is a great deal of criticism, whether rightly or wrongly, that we want to meet with the people and have them have their say as to what they think should be done or what should not be done. And I might also point out that there is really no soil erosion or water contamination resulting from this type of work. I hope I haven't been leaving out any of the questions that have been asked or comments made. I thought I had notated most of the comments. In respect to my honourable friend the Member for Morris, he was quite interested in the training program. He suggested it should

1954 June 18, 1971 (MR. BURTNIAK cont•d.) ••••• be undertaken insofar as training people such as waitres ses and gas pump attendents and so on. I might point out to the honourable member that we do, and we have carried out such a program in several areas of the Province of Manitoba. My view is I don't think that perhaps the government really should be doing this kind of thing, I think that perhaps -and I don't-wish to get involved in a political wrangle over this -but I honestly believe that perhaps it should be the private enterprise should perhaps carry out this kind of seminar.

However, I'm not going to argue on that point, We have done this, and we have seen it has proved quite successful wherever these seminars have been held, Insofar as the tourist reception centres are concerned, I think the honourable member is well aware that we have a tourist centre at the U,S,Border as well as at Emerson, Also, we assist other reception offices by way of grants throughout the province, This of course has been referred to by some of the other speakers; they mentioned this fact, I don't know, per haps when the new City of Greater Winnipeg has been established, the city might well wish to operate a tourist reception centre at the southern approaches of the city as well as other of fices at eastern and western main points of interest, One item, and here again I'm glad that my colleague the Honourable Minister of Trans portation is here because this perhaps deals with his department -not perhaps, it does have to do with his department -and the Member for Morris brought this up last night and I think it•s a good idea, Insofar as parking is concerned around this building during the time -if the session is on during the tourist period such as we are experiencing right now and for example last year, I do believe that we should have some space made available - I don't know if I'm telling tales out of school and I'm not trying to speak against the Minister of Transportation - but I have been phoned last night and this morning by tourists complaining that they had parked around here, somewhere around the building, tourists from outside of Manitoba and they have received a ticket, This I understand - I should say I know, and we all are aware of this, that this is not very good public relations, but unfortunately there is nothing we can do about it right now.

Space is at a premium around the building and perhaps something should be done in this regard so that tourists - I don't think we need too much space for them, perhaps four or five spaces would be suff icient -but somewhere where they can park when they come to the building, After all, we have the Tourist Information Centre here in the building, we advertise it, and then when they come here they find they have no parking space, So I know it is a prob lem, but perhaps this is something that we should have a good close look at, I don •t know how much longer I want to go here except to mention one other member, who spoke on a different issue but still in connection with the Department of Tourism, and I'm of course referring to the Honourable Member for Point Douglas when he spoke about the Censor Board last night, I was quite interested in some of his remarks; I thought they were very good, He was quite concerned about some of the films, movies that are being shown here in Manitoba and particularly in Canada, and what it does to some of our younger people and so on, However, if you recall, I did table the report some time ago and I asked for comments.

And believe me, Mr. Chairman, I certainly have received an awful lot of them -phone calls, quite a number of delegations and hundreds and hundreds of letters. We have been sort of studying all these various comments and we are trying to get these opinions formulated in such a way that we will come up with the best possible solution and that's why we haven't so far acted, but I certainly hope that it will be in the very near future before we come up with a good program insofar as our films and censors is concerned, MR, CHAIRMAN: The Member for Assiniboia, MR.

PATRICK: Mr, Chairman, I was not in the House and did not have the benefit when the Minister introduced his Estimates but I wish to make a few remarks at this time and make a small contribution to the debate, When we were in the Economic Development Committee the other day, the report of the chairman at that time that was presented to our committee was of the nature that the govern ment can certainly expand the tourist industry in this province and should put much more effort than they are at the present time, I did spend considerable time last year on these Estimates and indicated the same thing, that I don't think that the government is doing enough in expand ing the tourist industry in this province the way it should I think the Estimates would indicate by themselves that the increase in the tourist estimates were so small that there is an indica tion that we are not developing this industry at the rate that we should be, I think the financial rewards from the tourist industry would be great to this province and to the people, at least it

June 18, 1971 1955 (MR. PATRICKcont•d.) ••••• would be much greater than what it is at the present time •. During our centennial year we had approximately three million tourists come to visit Manitoba and spent approximately $150 million, which is a pretty substantial amount. I believe 81 percent of these arrived by car, spending a considerable amount of money on gas and con_: tributed substantially to our revenue, to the provincial revenue by way of gasoline tax, and of course they had to do some shopping.

I believe that the benefits that we get from this industry is not only of benefit to the City of Winnipeg, or Metropolitan area of Winnipeg, but the rest of the entire province benefits as well, because I tinderstand only approximately 35 percent of the tourists that come to Manitoba stay in Winnipeg and the rest usually disperse through the whole Province of Manitoba. -- (Interjection} -- What's that? No, I think this is great, I think that's why the benefits accrue to the whole province instead of just the Metropolitan area.

I understand that they spend approximately $155. 00 each day on such things as accommo dation, meals, transportation, shopping. and probably entertainment. But the unfortunate aspect, Mr. Chairman, is that the $40 million the province earns from tourist trade, we spend less than one million dollars on tourist advertising and development of this industry. I. think it is · the most underdeveloped industry in our province. I understand the present level ofdevelop ment is only one-quarter to what the potential should be and could be.

The fact is that we are not testing the markets which we could and we all kn ow that more and more people today are looking towards leisure, entertainment and travel, and this will increase and continue to in crease. The Manitoba Targets for Economic Development Commission drew attention of the gov ernment to this tremendous potential and urged the government for some immediate ;iction. This has been a few years ago and we have showed very little progress in that respect.

The report also warned that unless we move in this area, not only will we not catch our fair share of the future growth of tourism but that we may lose some of the present share of this market. The report also indicated that every stay of tourists in this province declined from seven days in 1959 to about five days at the present time, and one would have to conclude or be inclined to believe that we are not offering the type of attractions in suff icient numbers that would keep the tourists here a little longer - and if I can paraphrase Mr.

Nelson Shoemaker, who used to say, ''We have to do something to make him linger a little longer in this province." Mr. Chairman, the Manitoba share of the North American tourist business is only one or .13 percent which is less than one percent, and I believe that the rapid growth of this industry in North America has spilled into Manitoba even if we didn't spend any money on tourist in dustry, but unfortunately we are not capitalizing on this potential that we have in this province. The TED report also indicated that the tourist business would grow to 140 million per year by 1980 without any government action.

It also stated that this industry can be increased to 400 million per year if properly promoted. I say we are losing $250 million per year in the tourist potential, Mr. Chairman, so I hope that the Honourable Minister will take a firm stand in his caucus and in the cabinet to • • • MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. i' MR . BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, would the honourable member permit a question? MR . PATRICK: Yes, I will . MR .

BURTNIAK: I'm sorry to interrupt you at this time, but I'm just wondering -- it's fine for anyone to say that we're losing a certain amount of tourist business, but what do you do - and I'm asking this of the Honourable Member for Assiniboia - how do you expect to in crease and improve our tourist business if the facilities are not developed ahead of time? MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Assiniboia. MR . PATRICK: Well, I pointed out, Mr. Chairman, that we're not, our tourist industry is not decreasing as such.

Even if we didn't spend any money it would increase slightly be cause of the spillover from other jurisdictions, but I don't think we're developing at the rate that we should be and all I'm doing is indicating to you what other experts and what their re ports have indicated, not only TED committee but the other day in our Economic Development Committee by one of the government experts that we just heard two days ago, and if anything valuable in that report that we heard it was the emphasis on the tourist industry. Even if the facilities aren't developed Winnipeg is very .rich, very rich in history.

This was the place where all the people travelled through when the whole western Canada was developed. There is many places of historical nature that can be promoted, and I believe in that respect that Mani toba is very rich in that type of history that can be promoted and advertised, and in my opinion

1956 June 18, 1971 (MR. PATRICK cont•d.) • • • • • I don't believe that we are doing enough in promoting and advertising this industry. I would agree that it can't be done all at the same time, but it's quite a few years now since the TED report came out and I feel that we've made very little pro gress.

I understand that the Federal Government has been interested for some years to develop another national park in Manitoba, There are some problems in this respect as to location and the land, and I say that surely something must be done; let's get together and develop another national park, I'm not so -- (Interjection) - well, it•s up to the Provincial Govern ment to decide, Is it such a difficult - (Interjection) -- Yes, I would appreciate it in Assiniboia. MR .

CHAmMAN: The First Minister, MR , SCHREYER: Well, Mr, Chairman, if the Honourable Member for A.ssiniboia is wishing to give constructive criticism and suggestions, as I know he is wont to do, would he care to give us any constructive suggestions with respect to the location of a second national park? MR , PATRICK: Yes, I would, Mr.

Chairman, I would suggest that it be somewhere -- (Interjection) -- No, I was going to suggest somewhere up north, I'm not particularly happy with - (Interjection) - northwest, Mr, Chairman, I'm not totally happy also with the Federal Government's use of parks; I think there should be some modification of park use for travellers and for development as far as the federal parks are concerned as well, I think it's unfortunate when you have a park as large as the national park in Manitoba today, the Rid ing Mountain, which is 50 miles long or longer with thousands of acres, that on the fringe of it, perhaps a mile, you can develop a proper ski resort, because you can't infringe on, you know,. on the park use of the federal park.

I think it's unfortunate; I think the time has come that the Minister should probably have some kind of a joint committee in respect of federal parks use between the province and the Federal Government, To say that we'll do away completely with any development in the national park I think is wrong, and as long as we don't destroy the park completely then I see nothing wrong to develop a proper ski resort on the fringe, which is per haps not further than about half a mile inside the park.

To have the problems that the people have in developing the ski resort a little way from Mccreary, I think it's most unfortunate, I believe that if the federal people do not wish to operate, say, the golf course at our national park, well let the Provincial Government have the use of it and operate it and perhaps we can make better use of that and develop it better.

Mr, Chairman, my point is, from all the indications and reports that have been pre sented to this House and to the government, it seems this is one industry that's certainly under developed when we're told that it could be developed in Manitoba to a potential of $400 million per year. I think that the government certainly should move much faster than they are at the time, and by only one indication, all you have to do is look at the Minister's Estimates and you can realize that he's not getting a fair share of the money as some of the others, The point that we have to all appreciate, Mr.

Chairman, is that the tourist industry is a labour intensive industry, It creates many jobs, because when the tourists travel you create employment in hotels, in parks, and almost every type, It's an intensive labour industry, so this is I think a very important point that the member should realize, The second point, I think that usually your tourist business is concentrated most of the time in the summertime and I think this is an ideal situation to create employment for the students, the university and high school students, because this is the time that they can't find employment, It's another - you know, it's a seasonal industry, the tourist industry, and I think that the Minister can realize himself that it's an ideal situation to be able to employ many of our university and high school students because it is seasonal employment.

I feel that we should not forget that this industry contributes heavily to the Provincial Treasury, and if the TED report was not accurate, if it was just partially accurate that this industry can grow to $400 million per year, I think that certainly this government is missing the boat by not developing it much faster, The other point that I wish to raise to the Minister - I brought up the other day - I still feel that when you have a place like Falcon Lake that has been developed so beautifully, prob ably one of the nicest provincial parks, we have a ski resort in there and at the present time you do have a considerable amount of people utilizing it, making use of it, You have one of the finest motels of anywhere in this province that's situated in there, and again this is not utilized

June 18, 1971 1957 (MR. PATRICK ccmt1d.) ••••• to its fullest extent because - the Minister doesn't agree with me, but I liope that he will - I requested this last year, that he should instal a T-bar at least on one of the slopes that can be utilized by the people, because what you are getting today is you're having many of the people by-pass from Winnipeg, by-pass Falcon, they're going to Kenora, Fort William -- there's no such place, it's Thunder Bay, or they're going across the line to Minnesota, the Sugar Hills.

I think it's most unfortunate because the facilities at Falcon Lake are substantial, they're good.facilities, but you will find that when people travel 50miles · further and find that they can use a T-bar, and a T-bar is not much more expensive than a tow rope, and a tow rope if your incline is pretty steep, you'll find many people not wanting to use it and this is exactly what's happening at that resort at the present time, I mentioned about the second national park and I think the only problem that we have is the location, I think it's unfortunate that you have so many members in this House, you have the government, and we can all be so incompetent and can't finally come to a decision, that we can get a second national park but the problem is we can't decide on a location.

What's wrong? Let•s get a committee established. If you don't want a committee established, an independent committee, establish a committee of the House of all members,. and give us all pertinent mater ial, all pertinent facts, and I am sure that committee will decide where the location should be and then we'll all take the blame if it's the wrong location.

I heard the same debate and the same discussion, that yes, we can have a national park immediately, any time - and this was during the time of the former government, This was stated on many occasions, going eight and nine years back, that we're ready for a second national park, the Federal Government will develop it but the proyince has to give us the layout, I think this is the way it works, -- (Interjection) -- Well surely, you know, it shouldn't take ten years, ten years for the Provincial Government, irrespective of what party is in power, to make the decision or to be able to find enough land for a national park, I think it's most unfortunate that we've waited this long, And the First Minister had the audacity to get up and say, "Where should we put it?" Well, if that's the only problem - (Interjection) - Well, the Member for Swan River, I've already agreed that I feel that it should be somewhere up north in order to develop our north. -- (Interjection) -- In my opinion, I may be wrong, but I'm not afraid to say so, -- (Interjection) - Well, somewhere around Flin Flon or The Pas, it may not be the best spot there.

Mr.

Chairman, last year I also asked the Minister to check on most of the Manitoba lakes along the highway, at least No, !Highway, the Trans Canada, where you can at least put some beat launching signs, I could still say to him that at the present time going out east you'll find no boat launching signs on the Trans Canada Highway, When you travel through Saskatche- . wan you will find every 25 miles you'll have a nice sign for the people travelling in the summer time towing a boat that there 1 s a place that they can put their boat in the lake or in the water, so I hope that the Minister would take this again under consideration.

Again, I feel that tourists will only come if interesting and varied attractions, providing accommodation, transportation, will come to this province, and I feel that it's not only up to the government to develop all the tourist attractions, it's also up to the private sectors as well, Another point that I think we should be aware of, roads are also important as well, and I hope that one of these days the Minister of Transportation will give consideration to.No. 7 5 Highway, that perhaps that highway should be improved, and should give consideration to maybe extending the two-lane a little further than it is at the present time because this is a tremen dous industry.

I understand in British Columbia the greatest revenue producing department is the De partment of Tourism in that province, Of course we haven't got the amenities, we haven't got the things, the beauty that maybe B, c. has, but I think that Manitoba has many amenities.

It has many lakes, it has 100, OOO lakes according to the Minister of Transportation, and it has good fishing, it has some beautiful attractions, but I think these have to be advertised; they have to be promoted, I know the other things that are most interesting are such attractions as perhaps we can talk about the Calgary Stampede, the Stratford Festival in Ontario, but surely we can -- the Morris Stampede has been really growing which is a tremendous tourist attrac tion to this province, and I think if the government would assist it a little more in proper ad vertising and publicity, it could reach some day to the type of stampede that you have in Calgary and I think the people in Morris should be proud of this development, It has grown from a very small _;_ (Interjection) - Well I just mentioned, when the member was out of the Holi.se,

1 958 June 18, 1971 (MR. PATRICK cont'd.) • • • • • that No. 75 Highway certainly should be improved. It would help this industry along. The other point when, Mr. Chairman, such things as the Trappers Festival at The Pas, the Trout Festival at Flin Flon, and many others. You have your Icelandic Day in Gimli and the Ukrainian Festival in Dauphin. I think these attractions could be promoted and expanded, which would attract people to this province.

Again, when I believe the amount that the Minister is spending on advertising which, according not to my assessment but the assessment of the TED Report, is such a small amount, that no wonder, you know, we could be doing much more than we are at the present time.

I think the market is so large and the cost of advertising is great to many of these small towns and we're trying to promote tourism, so I feel the most ef fective way to attract attention of the potential tourist is probably to combine it with proper government advertising and pamphlets and booklets and so on, that could be distributed because it's, as I say, difficult for a place like The Pas or Flin Flon or Morris to undertake to do the type of advertising it requires to have the Morris Stampede develop into something, one of the greatest things in this province that we have, and I think it can because, as any of the members that have been to the Morris Stampede, I think the show is one of the finest that you'll find anywhere. - (Interjection) --That's right, Mr.

Chairman. The other point that I think that perhaps is not growing as fast as it should but with some government support it can, is the Brandon Exhibition, and it's the only show I think of its kind that we have in this province.

So I think more emphasis should be placed on these things than we are right now, and again may I say, when our Economic Development Committee met last week and the only worthwhile report that was presented to our committee was from the govern ment's own appointed people, and they said the only thing that you can do and the best potential that we have in this province and, even if you have to run to stand still -that's what the speaker said to us -but the potential is certainly in the tourist industry and this is where we have not taken advantage of.

So these are a few of the things that --(Interjection) --well, I certainly appreciate that. I see that I will get free complimentary tickets to the Stampede this year, thank you very much. But the point I certainly would like the Minister to express -in respect to a T-bar at Fal con Lake. I would like him to express an opinion on the use of federal parks. Can there be better co-operation between the province and the Federal Government in respect to youth and the tourists travelling through. I understand that eventually there will be no summer homes located at Clear Lake; all the permits will be suspended.

I don't know if this is correct or not but this is information that I'm receiving from some of the people and I think it's up to the Minister to tell us what is happening in the tourist industry so we would be advised. I believe that the Minister is spending somewhere in the neighbourhood of a million dol lars for tourist advertising, perhaps maybe a little more than that or a little less, I'm not sure,but according to the TED Report I understand, Mr. Chairman, that to develop the tourist industry to its full potential that it can be developed into the $400 million industry that it can be.

The Minister can afford to spend much more than a million dollars on advertising. In fact, I understand that the TED Commission indicated it should be able to spend up to $10 mil lion because the revenues that accrue to the province are so great, and will be, so that I think that the Minister should perhaps look at that and see if he can help some of the smaller areas.

I certainly don't see that the government places any priority on the tourist development in this province. - (Interjection) - Well, unless I didn't hear the Minister because I wasn't here when he introduced his estimates, but to my indication he hasn't so far. So, Mr. Chairman, I feel that the Minister can develop some other tourist attractions. We could have such things as air shows in this province. I understand there is only one some where in British Columbia and that attracts about half a million people to an air show, or more, and this is something that he could think about.

We have places like Gimli and Rivers. Surely it wouldn't be too difficult to develop an air show. You could develop such things as perhaps international car racing. I think this could become a very large event where you can attract twenty-five to thirty thousand people for three or four days, so just imagine the kind of revenue this type of people coming from other areas, other provinces and, say, from across the line, the kind of revenue that type of tourism that would come and stay here would generate. So, Mr. Chairman, --(Interjection) - No, I had --nothing - I'm not against people having a good time.

June 18, 1971 1959 (MR. PATRICK cont'd.) The other point that I wiSh to raise and I kno.w there'll be a cry probably from some of the-members, but I'll tell you, I think that the Minister should definitely take a look at the sports facilities that we have at the present time in this province..., and he probably has. I.don't feel that a dome over the ·stadium should be forgotten. Perhaps it Should be some time in the future but not much longer than ten years in the future.

I do�'t think that we Should forget about a franchise, a National Hockey League franchise.for this province, and if any facts o.r any indi: cations if we believe the Minister of Finance are correct when.he says that you'll have.85 to 90 percent of the people living in Greater Winnipeg by 1980, which E1ort of disturbed me because at the moment I thought the government did not have any policies to rescind that trend if that's what's happening, because I also believe that centres like Brandon and Dauphin and Th0mpson and other areas should be growing, but when the Minister said, well no, 90 percent will live in Winnipeg by 1980, well I was shocked to hear that because then I said the government has no policies, or failed, or just wants Winnipeg to grow, because surely through regional incentive grants we can develop our other centres as well.

But if Winnipeg will be, within the next Short while a city of 750, OOO people, I think that it's only. right that we have a National Hockey League franchise established in the City of Winnipeg.

Western Canada produces perhaps the majority of the hockey players for the National Hockey League, and if you take a look in west Canada, we had to fight for a franchise in Vancouver, and when the local people wanted to put a team in there the price quickly jumped from two million to six million which made it almost impossible for the local people to develop it at that price; well, two years before that the franchises were given in Minnesota and some other place, were developed or given for two million dollars.

I'm just drawing that Winnipeg has a potential for. a National Hockey League team if we will be 750,000 people.

The Minister has to be thinking ahead of time in respect to facilities and park ing and, if I may, I think. that credit should be given to the people who built and developed and E1howed the initiative to develop the Winnipeg Stadium, but surely if there would have been better planning it could have been built in. such a way that the costs now for addition would have been such that would eliminate a lot of problems in respect to traffi c, hi respect to access from the stadium itself; when you have some of those stadiums that are not built, much different than they are today, are built where the traffic and the crowd can disperse from a place of, say a stadium of 80, OOO people, in a matter of five minutes, it takes half an hour to get out of a 20,000 stadium and the traffic problem after every event is, you know, quite great.

So I think there certainly could have been better planning in that respect. So I agree with the Minister that surely he must be concerned with what's happening today in his Department, and he Should be planning for the future as well. And may I conclude, Mr . Chairman, that the initiative of the government is not great enough for the potential of the tourist industry because we have it from experts on record that this is one of the industries that has been neglected and much more can be done. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Minister without Portfolio. HON. RUSSELL DOERN (Minister without Portfolio) (Elm.wood): Mr.

Chairman, I just want to make a very brief comment on the Estimates really, to ask a couple of questions of the. Minister of Tourism.

I wanted to ask him if he would say something about his Department's policy in terms of advertising or supporting of Canadian magazines, whether or not.the Depart ment, when it's considering its budget, gives preference to Canadian publications or whether it attempts in any way to support our somewhat suff ering and somewhat declining publishing industry in the country, If we look at the newsstands, 99 percent of all the magazines there are American, and we do have Macleans and Saturday Night, to mention just a couple. I would like to know whether these are utilized by the Department.

The other question I wanted to ask the Minister was in regard to the great game of tennis. Fantastic support is given by public - well, by the government, by municipalities and so on, to the game of golf and hundreds of thousands of dollars or millions of dollars are spent on constructing public golf courses and practically nothing is contributed to tennis, and here is a game that can be taken up by young people for next to nothing, for the price of a racquet at $5. 00 or $10. 00 and a pair of running shoes and a few tennis balls , MR . FROESE: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. MR .

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland. MR . FROESE: Is it proper for one Minister to address another Minister of Cabinet in this way. Is there no communication then between Cabinet?

1960 June 18, 1971 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Acting House Leader to the point of order. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman. on the point of order may I suggest that a Minister of the Crown is a member of the Assem bly equally with any other member of the Asse mbly and has the same rights and privileges. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister without Portfolio. MR. DOERN: Mr . Chairman, I won't debate the point of order; I'll ignore it.

I just wanted to say again, since tennis is a game that can be taken up by young people at next to noth ing cost and is a very healthy activity, does the Department have any program to promote the construction of tennis courts as opposed to the construction of golf courses and promoting the game of golf, which is a very expensive sport? MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we proceed, the Chair resents the remarks that points of order will be ignored, no matter what part of the House they come from.

The Chair also -- if the Member for Winnipeg Centre had been in the Chair when the Estimates were first taken up, he would have recognized the Member for Gladstone who was on his feet when we were last con sidering this resolution. The Member for Gladstone. MR. J .R.FERG USON (Gladstone): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have listened with great interest to all the advertising being done by my colleagues and some of the fellows from the other side.

I think that possibly I better add a little bit for my constituency, which is situated in the central part of the province, more or less the pivotal point for the rest of the action that goes on in the province. There's only a few points that I would like to bring up. One would be the original boundaries of the postage stamp province. I think that possibly some recog nition could be made along the highways of where the boundaries were and the year the changes were made and this sort of thing, some cairn or something along this line.

Another thing I think that we possibly might have missed overseeing a little is the fact that mercury pollution might turn out to be a bit of a blessing in disguise in some of our lakes.

I think it might give us a glorious opportunity to replenish our fish stocks in some of the north ern lakes and the rivers , and possibly the fishermen that are now out of a job, that some ef fort should be made in possibly channelling their efforts into building camps and I think that something along this line might be of greater benefit and of greater financial advantage to them than going back into commercial fishing even when the rivers are clear again.

As it appears now, it's a kind of an undetermined time· period when the mercury pollution will be cleared up and, as I say, the fish stock is definitely building up and in many cases it will not stand both the commercial and the pleasure fishing. I think that the Minister should give this some thought and possibly start channelling their efforts along this line. Now, some of the happenings that I would like to advertise a little in my constituency. I think the first and foremost would be the Austin Museum.

We have a stampede that will com pare with Morris almost, and better than swan River. and along with this we have the vintage machines, the various events that go along with it, bag tying. some of the old arts that a lot of the young farmers today wouldn't have any idea of what they were all about. At Neepawa we have our Festival of Arts to be commencing shortly and this is quite an event, and I would like to thank the Minister for the financial aid in keeping this festival going.

We were on the verge of having to close it down and through his efforts and the co-operation of his department it has been able to continue. I don't think that I have a great deal more to say, Mr. Chairman. I think these have been the points that I would like to bring out, and I see that my colleague from Emerson is quite anxious to say his little piece so I'll close. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. GABRIEL GIRARD (Emerson): Mr . Chairman, may I start off by thanking and re laying to my honourable friend from Gladstone that I really appreciate his generosity in sharing this time.

I would like to also mention at the outset that I'm a little confused with regard to procedures and it's probably because I'm a new member and I'm unaware of regulations govern ing the conduct of the House, but I'm confused when a member from this side cannot ask a question to a member from the other side, and yet a Minister from that side can address another Minister from the same side, and possibly there could be an explanation for this but it does confuse me. I would like to very briefly address a few comments to the Honourable Minister of Tour ism.

I would like to suggest, like I did last year, that probably one of the finest fellows in this House is heading that department, a real gentleman. A real gentleman. And I'm considering

June 18, 1971 1961 (MR. Gm.ARD cont'd.) ••• •• in this group the Minister for Fort Garry and all the others, However, I must suggest that it's not necessarily a real gentleman that we need heading this department. We need, I think, somebody with life , somebody with vigor, somebody that will be aggressive and make the thing progress. I would like to reiterate a few .comments I made Iast year.

If I remember correctly, I suggested that possibly this good. sport was out at a card game or possibly he was busy doing something else when the estimate mimey was passed around in Cabinet last year, and I was hoping at that time that .he would be there to see that he got his fair share, I find this year that his estimates are down by. some $300, 000, maybe a little more, and at the same time, Mr.

Chairman, the Honourabl.e Minister of Health and Social Welfa re, or Social Services, has had his estimates increased by almost five times tliat of the total amount of the Tourism budget, and I'm not in agreement with this !llrection at all. I want to emphasize the comments that were made by the Member from Assiniboia, I don't think that Department is getting its fair share.

I think that maybe it means that the Minister is not seeing to it but, in any case, I suggest that it's time he does, because this Department cries for development and it's not going to be achieved by having a sliced budget that is already too skinn y, I want to agree with the Member from Assiniboia who suggested that there should be in Manitoba another national park; I don't think there should be any disagreement on that particu lar aspect.

But I might just like for a moment to change the honourable member's direction in the field of play, and although he might be conditioned to playing in the direction that he hears most about from his coach, I suggest that it would be fair to turn the field around and let him look at other directions of the province, not only the north but also the south, and I suggest that the area that cries for development the most, the most accessible to the densely p(>pulated area of Winnipeg, the most promising is southeastern Manitoba which is, Mr.

Chairman, I submit fo rgotten, It's forgotten as far a tourism is concerned and it has the potentiality - it cries for development. I might comment, Mr.

Chairman, that there is an attempt being made at developing a tourist area on Buff alo Point, Lake of the Woods, that is probably as beautiful, more beautiful than Falcon Lake, that has all the amenities or all the goodies that go along with the ideal re sort, but it lacks encouragement from the Provincial Gove rnment and it lacks a road, an access road, a total of a whole lot of road - it's four miles - I think and it•s not being done, We have approached the Premier on the same subject, The answer we generally get is: You know, it costs too much money, Well, I'd suggest we look at the return, we look at the advantages, and we spend our money where it ought to be spent rather than where it's being spent at the present. - (Interjection) - Well in the name of charity, Mr.

Speaker, I accept all the comments that are made by my honourable friends and if they wish to grant more to Emerson than I'm anticipating, we'll try and accept that as well. Now, I was happy to know that in the original shuffl e, in the original establishment of the cabinet, that we had Mr. Burtniak, or the Honourable Minister, named as heading that portf olio.

In my area we have a good number of people of Ukrainian origin and those people are very proud of their origin, and justly so, They showed this by establishing in Gardenton a museum that was very promising in the heart of probably the most uniform or the most Ukrain ian area in the province, We established a museum to make people aware of heritage, to make our students aware of values in cultural heritage and so on, but I suggest to you that in spite of delegation after delegation, letter after letter, there is little encouragement from the Provin cial Government being given the museUm. of Gardenton, and that same museum, Mr .

Chairman , that same museum, that same museum, Mr . ·Chairman, is in danger of being unsuccessful and is dependent on the Provincial .Gov ernment to realize its potential, one that certainly should not be ignored. I suggest that the Emerson town has approached the Minister of Tourism with the idea of developing some area for parks. There is a good number of people who cross-the border and wish to use the facilities , the tourist facilities in Emerson, that. are not adequate at this tune, but again we have met with very little sympathy and even less money, I think, Mr .

Chairman, if I were allowed to guess and I would hope that the Minister would correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm under the impression that he has, through the studies and surveys that have been conducted, more information about this than I, I suggest that many of our tourists come to Manitoba because they've heard of our 100, OOO_ lakes and . they've heard of the fishing that is enjoyed in Manitoba, and they come in numbers expressly

1962 June 18, 1971 (MR. Gm.ARD cont'd.) ••••• for this, and yet, as I go to the Tourist Bureau and say, ''Would you please give me a fishing guide?" the answer comes, ''Well, you'll find a little bit in this and a little bit in that, and here is a booklet that says where the big ones were caught, " and I'd suggest that maybe this is an area where we could improve simply by having one publi cation that will give direction to those people who are seeking this specific kind of information.

I suggest that the Member for Assiniboia .is perfectly right when he says that the rec re ational facilities in the province ought not to be forgotten. I agree that possibly the dome on the stadium ought to be considered and not shelved because simply it costs too much money, but rather we should be studying it so that some day - we haven't lost hope, but some day it might be realized.

I'd go further, though, and say that in many of the rural parts of Manitoba and certainly in a couple of areas in my own constituency, people have banded together with the idea that they would like to establish a small indoor skating rink, but you know, Mr.

Chairman, there is absolutely no financial assistance available for this kind of proj ect, for any community, The only possible assistance is if a municipal grant that was practised last year, the $6 million that was granted to municipalities last year, if that were done again, and we don't know whether it will or not, there ls a possibility that the labour would be paid by the Provincial Government.

I suggest that in the same area we think nothing of giving welfare assistance; we don't think too much of that because that's an established fact; but we cannot give assistance in terms of constructing something that wlll help the community. It would be nice, Mr. Speaker, if we suddenly decided to take the direction that yes, we are going to provide you with, not welfare assistance, but we are going to provide you with some work.

We are going to have you work for the benefit of your own community - we have to help you anyway; and we are going to provide you employment that will be constructive to yourself as an individual, re-establishing yourself as an individual in that community, and also helping the community itself provide recreational facilities for young and old, I think that that area ought to be studied. I think that there is potential there. I have no regrets in seeing people assisted but I don't like seeing people paid to stay home and vegetate. I don't wish to labour this point too far, Mr.

Chairman, because it's already a finished issue. We have a decreased budget, a decreased estimate in the Department of Tourism. We have someone who must not have been around when the pie was passed, and if he was, he must have been terribly quiet. We have a budget that ls less than five times - no, not less, al most five times that of the increase in the neighbouring Minister's budget, and I don't think that is good enough.

I suggest that if the Minister is still in that portfolio when the next par celling of the provincial monies comes around, if he can't do it himself, please seek assistance - get a good lawyer or something - but let's get our fair share for this particular budget. HON. SAUL A. MILLER (Minister of Youth and Education) (Seven Oaks): Would the member permit a question? MR. GIRARD: Yes I will. MR. MILLER: The Member for Emerson, ls he in substance suggesting an increase in taxation so that more can be spent in this area? MR. GIRARD: Oh, Mr. Chairman, the Minister completely misunderstands.

I'm sug gesting a relocation of the kind of expenditure. I'm suggesting that it would be nice from my point of view to have seen the Department of Health and Social Services increase reasonably, you know, instead of unreasonably, and see that of Tourism increase reasonably instead of decreased unreasonably. MR. MILLER: A subsequent question. Could the member pinpoint and zero in on those areas he feels could be cut back in favour of this program ? MR. GIRARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, we are getting to be very specific.

When a Minister asks me which specific area in the Health and Social Assistance budget that we have not yet considered, which specific area should you cut back, I'd suggest to you at this time I would like a little time to look at it, but if you really want it and if you really think you'll do something about it, I will gladly do that. MR. MILLER: I await this with eagerness, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister has been so impressive and so exemplary in the manner in which he's piloted his estimates through the House to this stage, that I can neither resist the temptation to compliment him on his performance or to ask one or two ques tions of my own and add two or three thoughts that I have, to the general consideration of the

June 18, 1971 1963 (MR. SHERMAN cont'd.) ••••• directions that his department is moving in. I mean what I say when I say he's been exemp lary and impr essive up to this point , because he has I think, direCtly and·forthrightly, Mr . Chairman, answered the questions that have been put to him.

He has done so without embellishment and he has done so with an obvious awareness of the im portance of the committee's time, and I think that it•s a lesson that many of us on both sides of the House could well follow, and it's particular ly, I think, app licable to certain of his colleag ues, particularly the Minister of Youth and Education, who used up a great deal of the commit tee's time in giving learned and academic answers but answers that in some cases were un necessarily long. So I salute the Minister of Tourism and Recreation for having taken the ap proach that he's taken. Mr.

Chairman, the subject of the total amount allotted in the estimates for this depart ment has been referred to by two or three speakers preceding me, and I must say that I want to add my own concern on that po int. I think that it points up the utter uselessness of the rep(>rt that was brought in by the Economic Development Advisory Board. I have had things to say about that report before and, while I recognize I'm probably bending the rules here, I wish to criticize that report again.

The total allotted to the Minister for the important work of his department points up the utter vacuity of that exercise by the Economic Development Advisory Board when they said that, they insisted that tourism and recreation and that industry is the top priority one for the economic health of this province in the immediate future.

Then we have this poor struggling Minister taking a few crumbs from the _table,doing his best to make some meaningful programs out of a patchwork budget that is obviously something that is directly opposite to the kind of position that the Economic Developm ent Advisory Board suggests should be taken. What's the point of a report emph asizing the importance of tourism and recreation when the Minister is stuck with these crumbs ? Mr .

Chairman, there are two or three directions that I would like to think the Minister can move in, even within his limited budget, and I would hope that in the twelve months coming that he will be aggressive and active in insistence upon a realistic budget for programs that need to be carried out under the umbrella of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs for the next fiscal year after the one we are currently in.

I think that one of the great attractions from a tourist poin t of view for any region is its main metropolitan area, is its main urban area or city, and I would suggest that whatever mechanics are possible to enable the - I would suggest that the Minister follow through on whatever mechanics are possible to enable the department , his department and the Provincial Government, to work with municipal author ities with a view to developing the downtown area, central core area of Metropo litan Winnipeg, to make it more attractive to tourists and visitors.

One doesn't need to stress the point that many of the great cities of the world are par ticularly attractive to tourists, travellers and visitors because of the amenities they offer downtown.

One can't manufacture history, one can't manufacture tradition, one can't manu facture age, one can't manufacture maturity; we know that there's only one situation, one factor that will take care of those needs and requirements and that's the passage of time� The Minister can't do anything about that, but given the time that we have had as an urban commun:: ity we have a substantial amount of history, tradition and record to trade on and to offer as an inducement to tourists and visitors, and the attractiveness, the ph ysical attractiveness of the downtown area of the urban community is something that can be developed directly and overtly by the -Minister and others.

There is no necessity to permit the march of time to take a hand in this kind of develop ment as there is in the case of developing points of historical interest. Here you have a specific , realistic, manageable challenge in front of you to do something to make your urban area exciting and attractive for visitors.

I think there were some pro gressive and constructive steps taken last year by the young people who were responsible for "Get Together 170", and I commend the Minister for his interest in that program and his interest in and supp ort of the successor to that program this year, "Get Together 171" or-whatever the specific title is. But that's the kind of thing that can make the downtown internal area of the community very at tractive to visitors and tourists and it's the kind of thing that I think is deserving of much greater extension and sup port. There are other things that should be done.

There are ph ysical things that should be done, there are things that can be done in terms of changing of a steel and concrete jungle into a cosmopolitan natural beauty spot where people can come and enjoy urban life and natural

1964 June 18, 1971 (MR. SHERMAN cont'd. ) ••••• beauties and plea sures. There are many examples in cities of Europe and Latin America that sp ring to mind.

I know we have, with what we've got here, developed a substantial amount in the way of natural attraction in our city when we think for example of the area surrounding this building, Memorial Park, Broadway Avenue and points like that, but the downtown, the spec ific core area of downtown is still just smoke, steel and concrete, and I would hope and dream that in the future there will be a central green area very close to the heart of the city, very close to the corner of Portage and Main that would include a number of colorful attractions of the nature of outside eating facilities, dining facilities, enter tainment facilities available day and night to the citizens of Manitoba as well as to the visitors who come to Manitoba.

These things aren't built overnight; there has to be a starting point, and I wonder whether the department headed by this Minister takes any direct role in trying to develop thinking along these lines with the municipal authorities responsible or if the machinery of government per mits him to do so, and, if not, I would urge him to attempt to open up avenues that would enable him to exercise some influence and some persua sion on municipal people with a view to making the centre of the major metropolitan area in Manitoba something that all Manitobans would take delight in, not just be proud of but would take delight in, and that tourists would take delight in coming to visit and enjoy.

Another obvious magnet, obvious area of attraction for tourists and visitors is the area of profe ssi onal sport, which has been touched on by the Member for Assiniboia, and the classic example in our part of the continent that comes to mind of course is the city of Bloomington between Minneapolis and St. Paul which now is a major tourist centre, as members know, Mr. Chairman, because of the pro fessional sp orts attractions which now are located within its municipal boundaries.

As a result of the drawing po wer of the profes sional sp orts events that take place in the metropolitan stadium and in the arena, the adjacent area - as a result of the drawi ngpo wer of those attractions there's a whole new, huge new tourist industry and hospital ity and hostelry indus try, as the Minister knows I am sure, that's developed in Bloomington all along Interstate Highway 494, and the people who come there don't have to go into Minneapo lis necessarily to find the things they want; in fact, the hoteliers and hospitality indus try people of Bloomington don't want them to go into Minneapol is, they want them to come to Bloomington and sp end their time and their money there.

They have built this hospitality reception indus try around those major sp orts attractions, so what the Ho nourable Member for Assiniboia has to say about domed stadiums and NHL franchises and profes sional sp orts should not be cast aside lightly. Some of these things are so exp ensive as to render them impossible if not unrealistic at the moment and of course all of us recognize that, but the poin t that the Member for Assiniboia was making is well taken. The survival of a community in North America in profe ssional athletic terms depends now upon facilities of that kind.

In fact I would go so far as to say, from my limited knowledge of profes sional football which is not as clinical as that of the Mem ber for Assiniboia's but which embraces many years as a fan and many years as a football writer, sp orts writer, that if we don't get a domed stadium in Winnipeg or in Manitoba before 1980 there will be no profes sional football worthy of the name in this province.

It's going to be absolutely necessary for survival in the theatrical world of profes sional football - and it is a theatrical world, it's a world of show business - there'll be no possibility of survival in that world past another decade for any major centre having a team like ours that doesn't provide that kind of a facility. So we have to start thinking about it. We have to start thinking about it, and the first step has been taken in the pres entation the other day to Winnipeg Enterpris es of a proposal for a roofed grandstand on the wes t side of the field.

I'd be interested in knowing whether the Minister has had an opportunity to acquaint himself with that proposal and whether the Provin d.alGovernment has been approached for sup port and whether it's considering finding, some where in this crummy budget provided him, a few dollars that can be directed and channelled to supp ort of that proposal, Mr.

Chairman, beyond the desirability of a delightful downtown and beyond the desirabil ity in North American terms anyway of pro fessional sp orts drawing cards, one of the other great tourist and visitor capabilities lies in the development of a si ngle unique event or attraction of some kind that is identified with your city or your province, as the case may be, every year into the future. Events such as the Calgary Stampede and the Quebec Winter

June 18, 1971 1965 (MR, SHERMAN cont'd) • Carnival come most quickly-to mind, but they don't nec- essarily have to be week-long events or events that last for ten or twenty days; there are many instances of individual one-day events that have put localities on the map and that have contri buted mightily in revenue terms to the economic well-being of those communities because of the visitors they attract, Two obvious examples are the Indianapolis 500 Speedway Race and the Kentucky Derby, for example.

There's only one day of the year that .Louisville, Kentucky . really comes to life and that's on Derby Day; there's only one day of the year that Indianapolis comes to life in terms of North A-merican publicity and that's the day of the 500, So there are events of that kind which can be confined to one 24-hour period which can. do as much for a community as an event lasting a week or two, and I have not seen in recent weeks or months , at any rate, any kind of follow-through on a subject that I know the Minister is keen ly interested in and that is a study of and attention to development of an event, of an attractiqn ·o f this kind, We've talked about it before - I know, I've been privy to informal conversations with the Minister and others on this very subject - and I think there was some thought last winter that perhaps the Manisphere Winter Carnival or the St, Boniface Festival, the Voyageur, was going to be the answer, and pe rhaps it will be, but the Manispher e Winter Carnival came a cropper quickly last year and the St.

Boniface Festival, although a tremendous attraction, still is not being developed and promoted along the lines that are necessary to create this single unique attraction identifiable with Manitoba that will next year and the year after and the year after and forever more ensure a steady flow of tourist travellers and revenue dollars for · our area.

Mr, Chairman, moving a little further afield, I would also like to bring to the Minister's attention the plight of Minaki Lodge, which is not of course located in Manitoba, and I assure the Minister I have no interest in Minaki whatever except for the fact that it brings a consider able amount of tourist revenue, tourist interest, tourist participation to our provi nce.

The fact that it's located in Ontario has a tendency to blind us to the reality of the fact that_ it's really a Manitoba tourist asset, It's people coming to Minaki who on route to Minaki come through our province and spend, hop efully, time and money here, and I don't think that we can ignore our responsibili ties in Manitoba towards the support and maintenance of that great summ er resort just because it's located outside our borders.

I would hope that we will work with the Province of Ontario to develop Minaki as a year-round resort and to recogriize the value that it has to Manitoba and Manitobans as a tourist attraction.

Now I missed some of the Minister's early remarks, which I regret, and he may have covered the subject of the convention centre, If he did I'll read his remarks in Hansard, but I would of course be remiss if I didn't just add my own comment that I would hope, along with everybody in this House and no doubt in the provi nce, that there will be something definite and specific forthcoming in the way of development of such a centre because we can't compete for trade shows, exhibitions and conventions with the City of Calgary to the west of us and to the City of Toronto to the east and the Minneapo lis area to the south, if we don't develop a major convention and trade centre here as quickly as possible, Mr.

Chairman, in closing my remarks I refer to a note that was just handed me by the Member for Asslniboia which makes reference to the crowds that were attracted to baseball games here in Winnipeg on Wednesday and Thursday evening. I know that there is some sus picion or some cynicism on the part of many Manitobans, and I think on the part of many of us in this Chamber, as to whether the metropolitan area of Winnip eg is willing to supp ort any kind of major sports enterprise along the lines of the prof essional football, baseball or hockey.

I know there's been some unhapp iness over the decline in attendance at pro football games in the last few years, and certainly in the closing years of the regime of the Winnip eg Warriors professional hockey team there was a fall-off in crowds and I would suspect that the manage ment and owners of the Winnipeg Whips are not entirely happy with some of the attendance records at the ball park this summer, but as the Member for Asslniboia reminds me in a note, when the promotion is there and handled properly and when the attraction and attractiveness is there, the crowds are also there.

There were 15, 000 in the park on Wednesday night and 9, 000 last night, which leads me to a thought that I had about prof essional hockey. Short of the Member for Assiniboia's sugges tion that we should be seeking an NHL franchise, which I think is perhaps prematu re, I would like to recommend to the Minister that some effort be made to attract some NHL games to the Winnipeg Arena, regular season games, I know we have the Minnesota North Stars training

1966 June 18 , 1971 (MR, SHERMAN cont'd) , here for three weeks in September which should be an attraction for sports fans provided we can build a couple of events around that, and I know that there are at least three exhibition games scheduled here, but there are three clubs in the national hockey league which are drawing very poorly at home - Pittsburg, Los Angeles and Oakland are all drawing poorly at home, and it would seem to me there might be some possibil ity of scheduling one or two of their home games into the Winnipeg Arena during the regular season, I know the kind of disruption that produces in the season ticket operations of a sports organization, I'm familiar with that, but I still think the effort would be worthwhile if two or three of those clubs could be brought in for two or three regular season games.

It would probably do as much for them as it would do for us because they would draw more in Winnipeg, I'm certain, than they're drawing in their own arenas at the present time, I think if the at tractions are here and the promotion is here the crowds will be here.

The unfortunate fact is that we are here in Winnipeg and in Manitoba, we're not quite major league but we're certainly not satisfied to be minor league, and with what television has done in the way of making all the major league attractions so close to us , so available to us , we're not prepared to go out and support minor_ league performances but we will support major league performances , and I think that the unhappiness with some attendance records in the past two or three years should be measured in those terms, Mr.

Chairman, before sitting down, may I just say to the Minister that I would hope that he, having had the two years• experience that he now has had running this Department, that he's prepared to get fighting mad about the things that need to be done and that are going to take money , and fighting mad about the fact that he's not being given his share of the revenue dollar, I would like him to go and talk to the Ec onomic Development Advisory Board and I would like to know whether the Eco nomic Development Advisory Board has ever talked to him when they produce their high-sounding sermons about the importance of the tourist and recreation industry.

Have they ever talked to the Minister? I doubt it, Mr. Chairman, very much , INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR, CHAffiMAN : I draw the attention of the members to the gallery. We have 35 students from Grade 2 to Grade 7 from the Islington Indian School at White Dog, Ontario, These students are under the direction of Mr. Dumvill , Misses Larson and Strauss, On behalf of the honourable members , I welcome you to the Chamber, COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (CONT'

D) MR, CHAmMAN : The Honourable Member for Rhineland, MR, FROESE: Mr, Chairman, I too wish to congratulate the Minister and his staff in the work that they're doing on behalf of fellow Manitobans. I have run across them on certain occasi ons at public functions where they certainly tried to do their share in advocating and also bringing forth suggestions complementary to the department's efforts, I certainly do not want to detract in any way from what they are doing, however, I feel that I would still like to make certain comments in connection with the Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs Department. Just a week ago or so I read a copy of the Reader's Digest and there was an

article on Manitoba in it and it listed various items of in terest that people coming to Manitoba should see or would be interested in seeing, It's too bad I haven't got the copy with me, I thought I had it in the car and I went to look for it but seemingly I didn't have it with me, so I'll make some further comments on that matter at a later date.

One thing I would briefly like to mention before going into some other items is the matter of censorship, Just recently I had another letter on my desk stating that where a certain party had seen a film under "General" rating, or "General" classification, and what this party objected to was, having the family with him, that previews of films were being shown which were not of that class and therefore they took very strong objection to this , I'm ju st wonder ing whether the Minister would look into this and whether something could be done about it because apparently these people were very embarrassed on this • , • MR, CHAffiMAN: Order, please, The Honourable Member for Rhineland.

MR. FROESE : I think the name of the film was mentioned but I can probably discuss this further privately with the Minister. However, I think it is worth mentioning here and that

June 18, 1971 (MR. FROESE cont'd) • • this matter be looked into. 1967 The matter of parking was already mentioned ·by other members before and I think it pertains to the Highways Minister, so here again: I will leave this matter until we discuss the Highways Minister's Estimates.

I also wish to very briefly comment on the Economic Development Committee's report that was brought in to their committee the other day which touched on the matter of tourism, and in quoting one sentence out of their report, I would like to read that and I'm quoting: "From our position of relatively unpolluted environment, together with our central geographic location, we feel entitled to recommend that a high priority be given to the systematic encouragement of tourism and recreation.

" I think this is very encouraging coming from that committee, ·and I think we should attach a lot of importance to it and that we consider tourism as part of economic development. · So often this is not the case. So often when we talk of economic progress we talk in terms of commercial and business of this type and that tourism is not classified as such. Howev er, as has been indicated from reports of other provinces, a lot of importance is attached to this and they've come out well on top.

I notice from British Columbia that they've increased their sperid ing in this connection by 300 percent or more from 1965 and since, so that they're reaping large benefits as a result. I think we have a lot to offer in Manitoba to tourists and we should be selling our product in this respect. Certainly some recommendations wouid be - we have a number of ports of entry from the U. s. into Manitoba and I feel that here is an area where we certainly could do much more than we are doing if we are doing anything at all.

I know there is literature display ed, but certainly during the summer months -w e now are faced with student unemployment, with unemployment in general - and I would like to see some of the students placed in employ ment at the entry ports during the summer months who would hand out literature and welcome these people. I'm sure this would be quite an attraction and it wouldn't cost too much.

Certain ly we are spending this money anyway; as was passed and allocated here in the Minister of Education's Department the other day, and I think this would have a lot of value and certainly would add to the people's welcome coming here. They would notice this and surely they would feel much more welcome coming here and spending some of their money !luring· vacation days.

I have two such ports in my riding, both the Gretna and the Winkler Port of Entry, which was the former Haskett one, and I'm sure that if this were done we could attract more people and the word would be spreading around and it would certainly add. I think this should be cmsidered and we should act on this, even this year because the monies have been set aside and no doubt we have the people for the job so that we could act on this in the matter of a short time. Whether we have sufficient literature available, I'm not sure at this time just what is all available for the 11eople coming in, but certainly, Mr.

Chairman, literature of this type could be produced. When we have articles such as I referred to earlier in the Reader's Digest, this would be of interest to people coming here. The matter of the various cultures could be mentioned in literature of this type; and sure enough in this way we could also further that effort, because I find when we look at some of the items in the Estimates, we are curtailing the grants of the Community Recreation Branch that were made earlier and we are continuing the Cultural and Other Miscellaneous Grants; in fact we're increasing them.

Here again I would like to know what the qualifications are that have to be met for the different cultural groups to obtain grants, whether grants are made to various organizations or whether this program is completely directed by the branch ofthe department, and whether they set up a program or whether organizations of a different kind are able to secure monies to advance their purposes. I certainly would be very much in favour of a national park in southern Manitoba. Surely enough we could build the dam on the Pembina River and we could have a resort.

We have I think the scenery' and certainly this also could be developed much more than there is presently. but I'm sure that this would be of great importance and I'm sure that the Regional Development Corporation of that area would be assisting. They would take a

part in this and we would have · every cooperation from them in doing so because they are very interested in promoting the Pembina area. They are trying to do their best to bring about economic development of various kinds and certainly, as I pointed out before,_ tourism should be part of it, so that this would add to the development that they are trying to bring about in that general area. It would also have a number of other benefits and these I have discussed on previous occasions in connection if the

1968 June 18 , 1971 (MR. FROESE cont'd) • dam were built, and I see no reason why we should lag behind in this and not try and bring about action in connection with that dam. Surely enough parks are being visited more and more. More people visit them, and I was rather sorry to hear that as far as the national park at Riding Mountain that the roller rink had been taken out. I think this is an added attraction for the young people, and when you go to these parks the young people have to spend their energy somewhere. This they can do at night time and it was really enjoyed by many of the young people.

I feel that where we have parks of our own, why not introduce this type of entertainment in our own parks. I'm sure this would be a worthwhile thing to consider because young people like action, and this is fun and this is good exercise. Certainly I think the Provincial Government should have acted much faster in con nection with the Riding Mountain National Park when this particular facility was removed. I don't think we did justice in trying to retain it. Certainly I would like to hear from the Minister ju st what efforts were made in that respect.

Our local areas in Manitoba are trying t.o assist the government in the work of this depart ment by sponsoring various festivities. We have in southern Manitoba what we call the Sunflower Festival which is conducted every year and this will take place again next month, I think it's the last weekend in July. It is being held at Altona and I'm sure all members are welcome to attend this particular function. We have had people of government visit and attend thes e functions at various times and certainly it would only be proper for me to extend an invitation for you people to come and visit a function of this type.

You also have the Old Time Value Days during August at Winkler, and what we see at these festivities, such as the Sunflower Festival, is that they will bring in dishes for the people, special dishes. There are bees, such as the pig killing bee that was once very common in southern Manitoba.

They are giving practical demonstrations of this and many other things that they will do to provide entertainment, not only entertainment but also some of the old customs and traditions that were in effect during the early years , in the early 1900 1s, and it is worth while for the young people of our age to see and know what transpired, what happened during those days. And the same holds true when we talk of the work of this particular department, where we are trying to interest people in various ways and such matters.

I feel very strongly in connection with the development corporations because I think we should really place some value on the work that they are doing in this respect. They are organ izing in various ways , they are assisting functions of this type and they are making a very special effort to do this in the various local communities, and I think we as government, we as the department here, should certainly congratulate these people on the work and on the effort they are putting forth. They involve the local people in the various projects and this also is very valuable.

I would like to have mentioned one or two other things, however, I think I'll wait for another occasion, not having all the material with me. However, before I sit down I think I should mention the Northern Task Force Report whiqh also deals with tourism. I notice on Page 64, recommendation 45, they recommend that a permanent Port Authority Office and Tourist Reception Centre be established in the Churchill area supported at the last session of the Legislature. I wonder whether the Minister has commented on this. Excursions are taking place annually to Churchill.

I notice there is four of them this year, if I'm correct, and certainly when we talk to people from the northern areas they would like to see greater encour agement given in this respect on the matter of the port authority. We kno.v that the federal authority is being dissolved. I don't know what is transpiring, whether the provincial government, what action they are taking in this respect. I would like to hear from some of the Ministers at some time during the session on this matter to know what is actually happening. Certainly in northern Manitoba we could, I think, set up some small experimental farms.

The Federal Government has set up Dominion Experimental Farms across Canada - we have one at Morden - and they are doing I think a good job in various respects, horticulture, agri culture and so on, and bringing in new varieties, not only in cereal grains but in all the various other types of fruits and vegetables.

Can we not have such a station somewhere in the northern part of Manitoba, so that probably varieties can be introduced that could be grown in Manitoba, in northern Manitoba, so that the people could have fresh vegetables , because this matter has been drawn to my attention from people in the north that they would like to see something like this, and I'm sure that the people out there would be interested in doing this; in fact, they have

June 18, 1971 1969 (MR. FROESE cont'd) • told me so. So I think some encouragement could be given in this respect. If we had a nice little experimental farm up at Wabowden or some other area, the people of Ilford were interested, why can 1t we try something? And in addition it would give these people fresh fruit and vegetables for that matter, and it would also be an added attraction to the people from southern Manitoba or from other areas to see what we can do in Northern Manitoba. Certainly when I advance matters for southern Manitoba that we should do, I also have an interest in northern Manitoba as well.

I'm here to represent my community, my constituency, but I also have an over-all interest in the province as well, and I think there are areas that we could look into and bring about greater development in this province as a whole. Certainly I would like to hear from the Minister on some of the suggestions I have made.

And when we look at the one item that is being discontinued, the grants for community recreation centres, are these the grants that were established under legislationjust a feW years ago where by we encouraged local areas to set up these development committees and they were getting financial support? Is this what we are withdrawing here, or just what are we eliminating by discontinuing those particular grants? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Transportation. HON. JOSEPH P. BOROWSKI (Minister of Public Works and Highways)(Thompson) : Mr. Chairman, I know we are on Tourism and Recreation.

I understand that the Censorship Board falls under it and I understand that Father Malinowski has already spoken on it and I missed his comments. Items mentioned by the Opposition are very interesting and I'm sure that if we get more festivals, whether they are sunflower or rhubarb, or whatever festival there was, they would draw people to the area, and everybody likes to have a golf course and a nice resort in their particular area, but it seems to me we have to be concerned more about the resorts that we have.

Today you know that whether you go to the Whiteshell or West Hawk or Paint Lake at Thompson, that your kids have to wear running shoes because there is so much broken glass on the beach and in the water, and building more resorts and bigger resorts is not going to solve that problem. It seems to me that the Minister should address hirii.self to getting more super vision and more policing in the various parks.

We have situations where nowadays if you go camping at night you almost have to take a 22 with you or, you know, get two or three people to go camping t<igether because bands of drunks and vandals come roaming around through the park.

Certainly this is true in the northern part of the province and, judging by the letters that I've received, there is quite a bit of vandalism and fighting and drunkenness going on in the southern parks, and it seems to me that rather. than build a super colossal - what's that place, that - Hecia Island, and other places, that we should maybe spend a few more dollars in getting more security for the places that we have right now. I would like to get back to the subject of censorship.

This is the only opportunity that I'll have to speak on it since it. falls under the Minister's jurisdiction, and I have a brief report which I take it was circulated to all members.

It's a report from the censorship, and even those who think there shouldn't be censorship will agree, or haven't been complaining about the degree of censorship we have; so it seems to me, regardless on which side of the Housa a member sits or what his views are, that we are accepting censorship, and according to the latest report January 1, 1970, to the end of 170, there has been 365 films that were viewed and out of that total, four were rejected and the reason for rejection was excessive stress on sex and perversion, and then there was an additional 35 that were cut and the reasons for the cuts were objectionable sex scenes, eleven torture and violence, and nine objectionable dialogue, and if anybody spent any time reading this report, I think he'd be pretty shocked and sobered by the stuff , the garbage and the filth that's being brought into this country.

I notice by the origin of the films that Canadian-made are only four; the majority were from Britain, France, Germany and Italy. Surprisingly Sweden, where all the dirty movies are supposed to come from, just had ten and Denmark is not even listed on this list here, and that's surprising, because that is like Los Angeles; it's known as the smut capital of the world.

I heard, or somebody had written a letter to me and i guess this is the current joke, that if the Good Lord doesn't do something about Denmark and Los Angeles he's going to have to. apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah, and judging by the trash that's coming out of these centers, you know, I have to agree with that comment. I notice in moral Brlt,ish Columbia that the censorship board pride themselves in not cutting out raw scenes and dialogue, and to add insult to injury, what they do ia the censor,

197 0 June 18, 1971 (MR. BOROWSKI cont'd) • whose name is R. W. MacDonald, simply prints his com- ments right after the word "warning" and the comments are "brutally realistic" for example; "No Blade of Grass - an adult movie, brutally realistic, some swearing and coarse language, signed R. W. MacDonald, B. c. Censor. " Apparently, and I'm really surprised that my friend from Rhineland is still in the Social Credit Party because I know he's a moral person and doesn't belie ve in this thing and yet his party in British Columbia has some of the loosest and the worst filth in Canada. It's not his fault.

I notice that Ontario, that conservative Ontario is probably the most moral province because there the judges have been giving the dirty boys a hard time. One place there , Hamilton, the Judge seized the film called Columbus of Sex, ruled the film obspene and had the film confiscated and the Canadian producers were fined. There are other cases where in Ontario they have really cracked down and that's again, it varies with the ju dge.

There are judges that like dirty niovies and judges that don't like them, and it seems that they use their own discretion on what's good and bad, I suppose the moral of that story is that we have no moral judges in Manitoba and I find that hard to believe, but - (Interjection) -- he's a magis trate. The surprising

part is that there haven't been more convictions on the same movies that are shown here. You know, I thought that the law dealing with certain aspects of censor ship was applicable across Canada. It seems that it isn't; it must be strictly provincial . I notice that the yardstick used here is: "A film suitable for ju venile or family entertain ment shall be classed as General; a film not suitable, in the opinion of the board, for juvenile or family entertainment shall be classed as Adult; films in a Restricted category are limited to people 18 years of age or over unle ss accompanied by a parent or guardian.

Now, when you look at the number of movies that are shown ••• MR. DONALD W. CRAJK: (Riel): Mr. Chairman, I want to raise a matter of House priv ilege.

We've had two Cabinet Ministers now have spoken on the Minister of Tourism and Recreation's Estimates, and this matter of censorship falls directly under the Minister, falls directly under the legislation that is provided for the administration of the Cabinet, and we are quite prepared to listen, under appropriate conditions, to the views of the Cabinet Ministers on this, but when the Minister does so it should be the Minister who is responsible for that legis lation, which is the Honourable Peter Burtniak, and to have two Cabinet Ministers standing up and raising the criticism of censorship when they have full control of the Censorship Board, is stretching the rights and privileges of procedure of this House, and I raise it as a matter of House privilege.

If possible, I prefer to have the House Leader make comment on it, MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St, Boniface, to the point of privilege. MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (St.Boniface): ••• point of privilege . I think that every single meniber of this House are in fact members of this House and they are entitled to their views, especially when you have something that there is such a diversion of opinion. You might have something on aid to private schools, I remember on this side that different people have disagreed.

Certainly it is the responsibility of a Cabinet Minister , but that doesn't mean that members or anybody can't get up in their seat here and speak as a member for a constituency or for something that he believes in. I think that this is perfectly correct. Mr. Chairman, there are categories in which to comment that are legitimate, but the Minister is referrring to the actions of censorship in Manitoba, which is Cabinet responsibility. It's not a question of introducing legislation, He has before him the report, the report of the ••• MR. CHAffiMAN: Order, please. MR.

CRAJK:: But the report of the Manitoba Censorship Review Board is here and it's quite clear that the legislation now exists. Now, if the Act is not being enforced, then it's the government's responsibility and it's a Cabinet decision, so there's no meniber of Cabinet can get up and divorce or devoid himself of the responsibility that he now has it. If he wants to get up and make comments about something relating to what's happening in our society, that's fine, but to divest yourself of responsibility as a Cabinet Minister for

an Act that is under your juris diction is not correct, and it's a breach of House privilege for us to sit here and have to take the time to listen to this. · MR. CHAffiMAN: To the point of privilege. I would remind honourable menibers that at the present time we are not constituted as the House, we are constituted as a Committee of the Whole House, and it is in this capacity that people are addressing themselves to the Estimates of a particular department. All members of the House, including the Speaker, are meni> era of the Committee of the Whole House, that when a Minister is presenting the government's

June 18, 1971 1971 (MR.

CHAm.MAN cont 'd) • estimates, that the debate by members as such, they're recognized as members and not adherents to a particular political group, that they address themselves as individual members. - (Interjection) - Well, if it is necessary for. me to substantiate or somebody questions the ruling of the Chair, there are certain procedures through which all honourable members can take the ruling of the Chair and have it examined by the House, but I would ask that all honourable members take two things into consideration: (1) that it has been the long-standing prac tice that the Opposition is usually extended the courtesy of having more time to consider the Estimates, because the point mentioned by the Member for Riel has some merit, that there should be some conversation between members of the same group , to wit, the Cabinet, but at the same time, when a member as such feels that this is not to his satisfaction and he wishes to make his opinions known to the rest of the mem bers of the House, I would ask the House to extend this consideration to that Minister, that when we are deliberating on something in the Committee of the Whole House, that members be considered as just that, members of the-Committee of the Whole, and I would once again re mind the members that even the Speaker of the House is a member of the Committee of the Whole House.

So while I have taken cogII,izance of the poin t raised by the Member of Riel and ask that members of the government side take this into consideration in the expenditure of the time which should be extended - you know, the courtesy should be extended to the Opposition in this regard - I would have no other alternative but to rule that this is not a point of privilege. The Minister of Transportat ion. MR. BOROWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm really ••• MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, pleas e. The Member for Riel to a point of order. MR.

CRAIK: When a Minister presents or a member pres ents something that is at issue in his constituency, which the Minister of Highways•did, which I think is quite legitimate because he was referring to particular problems with regard to tourism and recreation, I think that's quite in order, but the point of order is not questioning your decision; the point of order or privilege that I was trying to raise was that when a Minister criticizes the administration of

an Act - and the Censorship Board does pres ently fall under

an Act until it is changed - then he is in effect taking issue with the administration of government by the government of today, which is the Cabinet. MR. PAULLEY: line of app roach of my honourable friend constitutes a question of privilege or a po int of order. You, Sir, I think quite properly have indicated that we're aii members of the Committee of the Whole House. Now, it might be that the Honourable Member for Riel will get some solace from a possi ble difference of opinion between members of the Cabinet, but surely, surely to goodness, Mr .

Chairman, this is the right and privilege of every member of the House. I note, Sir, that it's 12:30, and although I think that it would be a fruit less search, but possi bly during the recess between now and 2:30, the Honourable Member for Riel and yourself, and possi bly the Member for Sourls-Lansdowne, could take a good look at Mays or Beauchesne and try and come up with something to supp ort their case. At the pres ent time, I don't think there's any point of order or point of privilege , Sir, and it's 12:30.

MR •. cHAmMAN : To the point of order raised by the Member for Riel, I would E!uggest that rather than a po int of order, this is a matter of debate; that while the point taken by the member may have some merit, I would suggest that within the rules of the House that the place to raise this point is as .a matter of debate, either as a matter or criticism or in some other way.

Now if it is necessary for me to quote chapt er and verse of the rules from Beauchesne to May to our own House rules, I would be prepared to do so, because the Chair ls quite cog nizant of some of these rules, having had occasion to review them in the past few days. The Minister of Transportation. I am sorry, we have reached the lunch hour. I am leaving the Chair to return at 2:30.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-3-81
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 3rd hansardpdf 81.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	35af46116538464e02691516f07ade6086ac0a31

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