Manitoba Hansard — 16 June 1972 (Sitting 120, 29th Legislature, 4th Session)

29-4-120

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XIX No. 120 2:30p.m., Friday, June 16th, 1972. Fourth Session, 29th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans-Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

Electoral Division Name Political Address Affiliation ARTHL)R J. Douglas Watt P.C. Reston, Manitoba ASSINIBOIA Steve Patrick Lib. 10 Red Robin Place, Winnipeg 12 BIRTLE-RUSSELL Harry E. Graham P.C. Binscarth, Manitoba BRANDON EAST Hon. Leonard S. Evans N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 BRANDON WEST Edward McGill P.C. 2228 Princess Ave., Brandon, Man. BURROWS Hon. Ben Hanuschak N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 CHAR LESWOOD Arthur Moug P.C. 29 Willow Ridge Rd., Winnipeg 20 CHURCHILL Gordon Wilbert Beard lnd. 148 Riverside Drive, Thompson, Man.

CRESCENTWOOD Cy Gonick N.D.P. 1 - 174 Nassau Street, Winnipeg 13 DAUPHIN Hon. Peter Burtniak N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 ELMWOOD Hon. Russell J. Doern N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 EMERSON Gabriel Girard P.C. 25 Lomond Blvd., St. Boniface 6 FLIN FLON Thomas Barrow N.D.P. Cranberry Portage, Manitoba FORT GARRY L. R. (Bud) Sherman P.C. 86 Niagara St., Winnipeg 9 FORT ROUGE Mrs. lnez Trueman P.C. 179 Oxford St., Winnipeg 9 GIMLI John C. Gottfried N.D.P. 44- 3rd Ave., Gimli Man. GLADSTONE James Robert Ferguson P.C. Gladstone, Manitoba INKSTER Sidney Green, O.C. N.D.P.

Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 KILDONAN Hon. Peter Fox N.D.P. 244 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 LAC DU BONNET Hon. Sam Uskiw N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 LAKESIDE Harry J. Enns P.C. Woodlands, Manitoba LA VERENDRYE Leonard A. Barkman Lib. Box 130, Steinbach, Man. LOGAN William Jenkins N.D.P. 1294 Erin St., Winnipeg 3 MINNEDOSA David Slake P.C. Minnedosa, Manitoba MORRIS Warner H. Jorgenson P.C. Box 185, Morris, Man. OSBORNE lan Turnbull N.D.P. 284 Wildwood Park, Winnipeg 19 PEMBINA George Henderson P.C.

Manitou, Manitoba POINT DOUGLAS Donald Malinowski N.D.P. 361 Burrows Ave., Winnipeg 4 PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE Gordon E. Johnston Lib. Room 248, Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 RADISSON Harry Shafransky N.D.P. 4 Maplehurst Rd., St. Boniface 6 RH IN ELAND Jacob M. F roese Soc. Cr. ·· Box 40, Winkler, Manitoba RI EL Donald W. Craik P.C. 2 River Lane, Winnipeg 8 RIVER HEIGHTS Sidmiy Spivak, Q.C. P.C. 250 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 ROBLIN J. Wally McKenzie P.C. lnglis, Manitoba ROCK LAKE Henry J. Einarson P.C. Glenboro, Manitoba ROSSMERE Hon. Ed. Schreyer N.D.P.

Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 RUPERTSLAND Jean Allard N.D.P. 602- 245 Provencher Ave.,St.Boniface 6 ST. BONIFACE Hon. Laurent L.Desjardins N.D.P. 357 Des Meurons St., St. Boniface 6 ST. GEORGE William Uruski N.D.P. Box 580, Arborg, Manitoba ST. JAMES Hon. A.H. Mackling, Q.C. N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 ST. JOHNS Hon. Saul Cherniack, Q.C. N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 ST. MATTHEWS Wally Johannson N.D.P. 23- 500 Burnell St., Winnipeg 10 ST. VITAL D. J. Walding N.D.P. 31 Lochinvar Ave., St. Boniface 6 STE. ROSE A.R. (Pete) Adam N.D.P. Ste. Rose du Lac, Manitoba SELKIRK Hon. Howard Pawley N.D.P.

Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 SEVEN OAKS Hon. Saul A. Miller N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 SOURIS-KILLARNEY Earl McKellar P.C. Nesbitt, Manitoba SPRINGFIELD Hon. Rene E. Toupin N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 STURGEON CREEK Frank Johnston P.C. 310 Overdale St., Winnipeg 12 SWAN RIVER James H. Bilton P.C. Swan River, Manitoba THE PAS Hon. Ron McBryde N.D.P. 228 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 THOMPSON Joseph P. Botowski N.D.P. La Salle, Manitoba. TRANSCONA Hon. Russell Paulley N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 VIR DEN Morris McGregor P.C. Kenton, Manitoba WELLINGTON Philip M.

Petursson N.D.P. 6fH Banning St., Winnipeg 10 WINNIPEG CENTRE J. R. (Bud) Boyce N.D.P. 777 Winnipeg Ave., Winnipeg 3 WOLSELEY

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2: 30 o'clock, Friday, June 16, 1972 INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 3067 MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we proceed this afternoon, I'd like to draw the attention of the honourable members to the gallery on my right and my left where we have 20 students of Grade 9 standing of the St. John's High School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Sanders. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Inkster. We also have 28 students of Grade 5 standing of the Strathcona School. These students are under the direction of Miss Wilson.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honour able Member for Burrows, the Minister of Education. On behalf of all the honourable members of the Legisla tive Assembly I welcome you all here today. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY -(Cont•

d) MR. CHAIRMAN: I would refer honourable members to Page 22 of the Estimates. Resolution 63 (a) (1) --passed ..• The Honourable Minister of Health and Social De velopment. HON. RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Health and Social Development)(Springfield): Mr. Chairman, on Resolution 63 when we adjourned discussion on the Estimates of the Department of Health and Social Development a few weeks ago I was attempting ·to answer some of the questions that were asked of me an<� unfortunately the time allowed was not sufficient for me to complete my remarks pertaining to questions asked.

I would like to continue answering some of these questions. I was attempting to answer questions posed to me by the Honourable Member for Thompson in reference to grants within our department, and more particularly grants made to the Mount Carmel Clinic, and that Mount Carmel was an abortion pushing abattoir and that we should enforce a law under the Criminal Code, and this was a quotation from the Honourable Member for Thompson. I have to agree with the honourable member that if Mount Carmel is proven to have contravened any laws that they should be prosecuted.

But I for one will not be the judge in such a case even though the honourable member seems to indicate proof of contra vention. Certain authorities, Mr. Chairman, are given to the College of Physicians and Surgeons under our Acts. Until the government decides to change such Acts the Minister of Health and Social Development is not in a position to overrule or alter their decisions. The honourable member made reference to a brief presented by Dr. Merry to Unicity and that I should take action on this brief. The brief made reference to many unusual pro cedures being performed at the Mount Carmel Clinic.

A lot of the follow-through on these accusations would have to be taken by different levels of authority and some of those could be by the College of Physicians and Surgeons, the Attorney-General, Unicity itself. If any of these allegations come within my authority, Mr. Chairman, I can assure the Honourable Mem ber for Thompson that I will do my utmost to discharge my responsibilities to the best of my ability. The honourable member is seeking my personal opinion on abortion and whether we as a government will enforce the federal law under the Criminal Code.

The Member for Thompson heard my position very clearly at the Brandon New Democratic Convention, and it will remain the same. As an individual I may have very rigid and specific thoughts but as a Minister of the Crown I have no choice but to go by what is spelled out within different Acts, federal and provincial. The Member for Rhineland mentioned that the Minister of Health and Social Development could not do a proper job because he is either over-worked, rubber-stamped, and that the department should be split.

The honourable member surely knows of the possibility of anyone to delegate to competent people and that he should be aware that under the provisions of the administration that we have Health and Welfare are under one Minister, as it is in Alberta, Quebec and with the Federal Government. --(Interjedtion)-- I happen to say it is. We are integrating the service under Health and Social Development and have done so for at least one year and a half.

It has been the policy of this government, and still is, to give additional policy arm to health, educational and social development, by means of a sub-committee of Cabinet better known as HESD.

306 8 June 16, 1972 (MR. TOUPIN cont'

d) The honourable member was asking what procedures are used to revise hospital budgets in the Province of Manitoba. At the outset of hospitalization in Manitoba, the Manitoba Health Services Commission followed the procedure of reviewing budgets on a line by line basis and in doing so arrived at and approved allowances for numbers of personnel and funds available for supply costs and other services. The budget review procedure is still in effect for the smaller hospitals in Manitoba.

In 1972 the Manitoba Health Services Commission adopted the concept of global budgeting for the large eleven hospitals in Manitoba that make up approximately 75 percent of total hospital costs in the province. For these hospitals the Commission has approved a 1972 budget allowance which provides for a seven percent increase to cover economic factors. Allowances have also been provided for new and expanded programs and facilities that have received prior approval from the Manitoba Health Services Commission.

The seven percent economic in crease is a composite of salary and non-salary items and makes provision for negotiated salary rate increases as well as normal supply, price and volume increases. The concept of global budgeting as established by the Health Services Commission primarily entails the acceptance by the hospital of a total dollar allowance rather than review and discussion related to separate approval for individual items that fall within the total budget. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR.

BILTON: I'm sure the Honourable the Minister appreciates the limited time that is available to the opposition. We have his Estimates to go through and it seems to me that he has mentioned policy several times and some of the subjects that he is discussing, Mr. Chairman, we may want to question him further as we go through the items.

I wondered if he'd keep his comments to the items as we deal with them rather than take up the limited time that is left and give the opportunity to the opposition to go through his Estimates as they are rather than a formal speech at this time which is going to take up a good deal of time. MR. CHAffiMAN: Order, please. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR, FROESE: On the same point of order. I do appreciate the Minister's reply. I hadn't received any reply to my questions. I think they're very informative and I would certain ly like to hear them. MR.

CHAffiMAN: I might appreciate the remarks of the Honourable Member for Swan River but I'm afraid I can't accept that as a point of order. We're under the Minister's salary which is a pretty wide-ranging debate and as long as he sticks within the Department of Health and Social Development, doesn't touch on other departments . . . MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, on the same point of order. I'm sure you'll agree with me that you've heard the word "policy" used many times and must the Honourable Minister take advantage of this opportunity to discuss the policy of the government. MR.

CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, on the point of order raised by the honourable member, I am not making a speech, I am attempting to answer questions that were posed to me while --(Interjection)-- and we're still on the salary, we're still on 63 ... MR, CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. TOUPIN: ... and I feel that I have an obligation to this House to attempt at least to answer some of the questions that were posed of me.

There will be an opportunity if it is the desire of the members of the House to ask other questions and receive answers to these ques tions if time is allotted to me. I feel . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, I had the decency of listening to the honourable member when he rose on a point of order. I would wish that he•d do the same thing to me. I feel that answers were certainly wanted by the honourable members and this is what I'm attempting to do. And if you so desire, Mr.

Chairman, and if the members of the opposition do still want to ask questions after I'm finished with these few remarks and answering the questions that were asked of me time will be given. Time is still on the Order Paper and there is sufficient time for all the questions that are desired by the opposition. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, on the same point of order. I want the Minister to understand that so far as I'm concerned I am simply assisting him. Give us a chance to talk. MR. CHAffiMAN: Order, please.

I think that freedom of speech is guaranteed in this House so ... The Honourable Minister of Healtha nd SocialDevelopment - Resolution 63 (a) (1).

June 16, 1972 3069 MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, before I proceed in answering the questions that were asked by the honourable members, I'm happy to see that the honourable member is wanting to talk but not too interested in hearing me answer some of the questions. The basic philosophy behind global budgeting is that the hospital will have the freedom to be flexible in the allocation of funds provided it remains within the total approved dollar allowance and continues to provide the approved levels and standards of hospital services to the residents of the province.

For those hospitals that are not on the global budget system the Manitoba.Health Services Com mission continues to conduct a line by line review of individual hospital budget submissions. These hospitals are provided with comprehensive detail of the Health Services Commission budget allowances and the recommended rate of payment for the year. The honourable member was making reference to a Standing Committee of the House for Health and Welfare, as he put it.

The honourable member is surely aware that the Department is now named the Department of Health and Social Development and that is a decision by this government. I would wish that he would refer to the Department as the Department of Health and Social Development. Many of the departmental responsibilities could be referred to sub committees of the House. We intend to govern between estimates to the best of our ability and rely on the people to decide if we warrant their confidence in the future. The honourable member is asking me to define community health and social development centres.

I think we've made reference in this House before and even going back to early and late 1970 on the concept itself, but I would like in a few words to try and define what I see to be some of the problems that we have in the health delivery system of today. As you know, Mr. Chairman, both sides of this House have expressed grave concern over the rising costs of health services in Manitoba. I share this concern.

Indeed, this matter has in recent years come to a very major issue across Canada and has led the Federal Government as well as Provincial Governments to look toward significant change in the organization of health services to reduce the cost spiral. In 19 70 the Economic Council of Canada expressed alarm at the social implication of health care crisis when they predicted that by the year 2000 health care and education costs would exceed the total gross national product if present rates of escalation went unchecked.

In 1969 the Task Force of Costs of Health Services stated the cost of health services has risen so rapidly in Canada in the recent years that three alternatives are now imminent: 1. The standard of health care now available can be reduced; or 2. Taxes, premiums or deterrent fees can be raised even higher; or 3, Ways must be found to restrain the growth of cost in creases through better operation of the health service structure now in existence and serious consideration must be given to a future revamping of the entire system we have in Canada. · As you are aware, Mr.

Chairman, the Federal Government has been proposing a new cost-sharing formula for the medical and hospital insurance plans. Their proposal is based on limiting their increase in sharing of provincial plans to a rate of increase tied to the growth of the gross national product, but introducing more flexibility to the system and coupling with this a so-called trust fund of X millions of dollars. This trust fund would be divided among the provinces on a per capita basis -- and I'm not revealing anything here to the members of the House. The Federal Government has made this public.

They say that this would help the province to develop new health programs such as community health centres in order to control the rate of increases insofar as costs are concerned. Mr. Chairman, our government has some sympathy with the Federal proposal for a new and more flexible funding arrangement for Medicare and hospital insurance. However, as our First Minister has said, and the Finance Minister has also indicated, the Federal formula presented thus far has been unacceptable because they fixed the Federal sharing of future cost increases to an economic indicator not health care needs.

Nevertheless we share the Federal Government's concern over the cost escalation and recognize as was said recently by the senior federal official, everyone, governments at all levels, physicians, organized medicine, hospital authorities, the Economic Council of Canada, all agree that something must be done in the future. We cannot afford the inefficiencies, the escalating cost increases, the inequities of access to and quality of health care services in Canada. The current financing programs for the non-system not only allows these but in some cases actually promotes them.

Here in Manitoba we have recognized that the health care of our people may be adversely affected by continued unrestrained growth of health costs. Just one year ago projections by the Manitoba Health Services Commission indicated that the cost of hospital care in Manitoba would go up by 115 percent and all health services cost by 99 percent in the next six years.

3070 June 16, 1972 (MR. TOUPIN cont•d) . . . . . We had every reason to become seriously concerned and to re examine many assumptions that had been used in the past. For example, we looked at require ments for new hospital construction and found that Manitoba now has more than the Canadian average in hospital beds. We found that there were discrepancies in the way the hospital beds are being utilized in this province. We found that excess usage of acute hospital beds would prevent any control on the rising cost of health care or the extension of new and needed ser vices to Manitobans.

Over the past year we made a number of decisions respecting new hospital construction which according to the most recent projections provided to me by the Manitoba Health Services Commission have resulted in an estimated saving of over $36 million for the year 1972 through 1974. Mr. Chairman, the problem is more complex, however, than simply holding the line on new hospital construction -- we must look for ways to improve the rational and efficient use of those excellent resources we already have in this province.

We must find ways to improve the organization of services so that presently under- serviced areas of the province can have· equal access to care as do residents of urban centres. Even within the urban centres there are discrepancies in access to care. It is a responsibility not only of government but of health professions and the people of the province to seek a more rational and effective use of our limited resources. The National Minister of Health and Welfare the Honourable John Munro has repeatedly pointed out the health care crisis in Canada and spoken of some ways of trying to cope with the problems.

Our government has, and will continue to seek ways of coping with this dangerous cost escalation. As you know, Mr. Chairman, we are preparing and will shortly be tabling before you a White Paper on Health and Social Services. Until that important document is put forward for your consideration, I can only refer to the matter generally. However, I would wish all members of this House to know that Manitoba is not alone in the health care crisis; indeed, we are not alone in examining various methods of dealing with the crisis. The problem is national as well as provincial.

Among the solutions that are under active consideration are community health centres. This is a matter which has been discussed for some time now in all of Canada. The White Paper I mentioned will deal with this topic in the concept of general health policy. Nevertheless I would wish to assure you and all members of this House that our government will continue to look at the health care problem not only in the context of rapidly rising costs but also in terms of improving the care for all Manitobans. Mr.

Chairman, all members of this House talk about the topic of rising costs in health care and that our government considers the deterrent fee question raised recently by a promi nent member of the medical profession as an uncivilized, cruel and wasteful tool, which has been shown in the past as being useless in terms of controlling costs. All it does is keep poor people from seeking medical care. This has shown to be unacceptable to our government now and for the future. I would like to add, Mr. Chairman, concern over rapidly rising costs in health care was recently recognized by the Ontario Medical Association.

This group just recently of its own accord decided to forgo proposing any increase in their

schedule of fees because they could find no evidence to warrant such an increase in the face of rapid increases in the net incomes of physicians in recent years. So far as the concept itself be more specific on the question of the Honourable Member for Rhineland, the three basic concepts pertaining to Health and Social Development centres have been tabled in this House, have been repeated many times by the Premier, by other members of this Cabinet. Included in this concept are consumer participa tion, integration of services, alternate methods of payment for professions other than fee for service.

The Honourable Member for Rhineland asked how many children are maintained by the province and do we have enough foster homes to meet the needs? I would like to just make reference to a few figures that I have before me in regards to the number of homes and the number of patients that we have in the Province of Manitoba. And I'll start by Brandon: group foster homes: 13, single dwelling 191, number of patients for group foster homes 85, for single dwellings 272, for a total of 357.

In the Selkirk area care homes 183 for 227 patients; boarding homes 149 for a total of 269 patients; friends and relatives 213 patients; others 235 for a total of 944. For the Portage area: community 6, 51 patients; group foster homes 16, patients 78; single dwellings 148 for 221 patients; and parents homes 52 for 52 patients, for a total of 402 in the Portage area. All three hospitals report that more foster homes could be

June 16, 1972 3071 (MR. TOUPIN cont'd) .... . used. The best way of obtaining new foster homes seems to be by word of mouth, from current foster home sponsors who tell relatives, friends, etc. , and occasionally social workers will see advertisements for rooms for rent which prove to be suit able. Advertisements placed in newspapers have proven useful, like the Member for Rock Lake mentioned; other agencies, for example, Children's Aid Society, sometimes come across accommodation that is unsuitable for their needs but suitable to the hospital - a home may be prepared to take adults but not children.

These are only some of the problems that are en countered. The Honourable Member is asking me to give in detail capital expenditures. This item . was dealt with by the Minister of Finance and I'm quite confident that the honourable member is not clear in regards to capital expenditures. I'm also confident that the Minister of Finance would be only too happy to supply him with whatever information he needs. The honourable member is asking what is the breakdown of funds needed by the Health Services Commission and the sources of revenue. Mr.

Chairman, the Resolution 68 that we• re still on for $7, 750, 000 represents a total appropriation from provincial revenues which is anticipated will be required to maintain the programs of the Manitoba Health Services Com mission for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1973. As you know, the Commission derives additional revenues from premiums, from cost-sharing arrangements with the Fe deral Govern ..: ment, and from third party recoveries, interests and other miscellaneous income.

Because the Commission operates on a calendar year basis as do the hospitals, I will follow the prece dent of previous years and explain the financial requirements and programs in terms of the calendar year 1972. For 1972 it is estimated that the total financial requirement of the Manitoba Health Services Commission will be 184, 293, 000, . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister has five minutes. MR. TOUPIN: ... an increase of 18, 167, 000 or 10. 9 percent over actual expenditures in 1971 of 166, 126, 000.

It is estimated that hospital costs will be 117, 535, 000, an increase of 13, 414, 00 0, or 12. 9 percent over actual expenditures in 1971 of 104, 121, 000. Medical, optometric, chiropractic and the other of these insured health service costs are estimated to be 61, 690, 000, an increase of 4, 137, 000, or 7. 2 percent over actual expenditures in 197 1 of 57, 553, 000, Administrative costs are estimated to be 4, 908, 000, an increase of 456, 000, or 10. 2 percent over actual expenditures in 1971 of 4, 452, 000.

And there is an additional item of 160, 000 built into the Commission's budget for the first time in 1972 for nursing home debt servicing charges. Previously this item appeared in the budget of the Department of Health and Social De velopment. As I explained earlier the vote of Resolution 68 is for an appropriation of 70, 750, 000 but this is for 1972/73 fiscal year ending March 31, 1973. The conversion to the Commission's financial year is made simply by allocating 75 percent of 70, 750, 000 or 53, 062, 000 to the last nine months of 1972 calendar year.

What this all means is that the calendar year 1972, the Commission may expect to receive revenues of 70, 615, 000 from its voted appropriation. Mr. Chairman, I'm limited in time to the additional remarks that I still have to make. I would like to desist at this time, and if allowed by the honourable members, to continue later in answering some of the questions that were asked of me.

Before I sit down I would like to acknowledge the remarks made by the Honourable Mem ber for Flin Flon and his constructive attitude towards the Estimates of the Department of Health and Social Development showing concern for the percentage of abuse that we see under welfare and yet helping me as Minister of Health and Social Development finding alternatives to the Social Allowance recipients that we have in the Province of Manitoba. I wish to express gratitude to the Honourable Member for Flin Flon and for his constructive attitude. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, I too have a number of documents in my hand from which I would like to read but I won't. Yesterday I undertook to distribute a list of the expected requirements under the hospital authority, and I apologized yesterday for not having it. I have it here in much more complete form than I expected to have it and since we are under the Department of Health if there are questions to be asked in regard to it, I'll be available to deal with them. So they• re being distributed now to members of the committee. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. TRUEMAN: Mr.

Speaker, it was interesting to hear the Honourable Minister's replies to some of the questions that have been. asked of him in previous discussion of Estimates

3072 June 16, 1972 (MRS. TRUEMAN cont•d) .. ... however he leaves us in the difficult position now of perhaps having to ask the right question so that he's able to give us the rest of his answers. There are some problems relating to children's services in the province which I would like to discuss at the present time under this Minister's salary, since I think there is an omission from the Estimates as they proceed.

The question of the non- ward children who need some psychiatric attention; at the present time a residential treatment centre such as the Children's Home may cost $34. 00 a day, or the Sir Hugh John Macdonald Hostel around $24. 00 a day. Now a foster child apparently can get help, and also a family which is described as poor, that is a family that has an income of about $6, 000, and they can receive assistance under what is called Special Dependent Care. However if a child, or child's family, is earning $6, 000 or more per year, there is no assistance for them.

The United Way at one time helped in this type of case but they have pulled out. I don't know how the Minister's going to answer this question if he ever has the time because he certainly isn't paying any attention. -- (Interjection)-- There's a good gossip session going on, or something, over there. --(Interjection)--.

Well the United Way has pulled out of the area of non-ward children and the government has not moved in to help, so that in a case of a family whose income is $6, 000 or more per year they cannot receive assistance from anyone, and their child who needs psychiatric care may need as much as a year or two of treatment, some times even three years, and this cost of $34. 00, or $24. 00 a day, or whatever, makes it absolutely prohibitive, and I think we should have some statement from the government as to their intentions in this respect.

I think that it's unfortunate that the other day the Minister didn't keep his commitment to go and be a member of a panel on subsidized adoptions for the Child Welfare League Confer ence. It was an interesting opportunity to learn and to hear other points of view. I found myself filling in on short notice, but I think it would have been most appropriate if the Minister had made the effort to go and try to acquaint himself with this matter of subsidized adoptions.

There apparently are families that are willing to take in a handicapped child and keep that child as a foster child, They may become very attached to the child, regardless of its particular handicap or condition, and would be happy to adopt the child so that it would feel that it was a member of the family. However in many instances they aren't able to afford to do that since the assistance from the government would be discontinued.

And there are mongoloid children, children with Cystic Fibrosis, conditions which are certainly expensive to treat, and in some instances just receiving some help with the cost of the additional health care that is needed would be enough that a family could adopt a child. However I don• t see the Minister exhibiting much interest in these children either. In today's newspaper, today's Free Press, there is an interesting

article concerning the Jewish Child and Family Service. If we can believe what is placed in the newspaper as an explanation the government has said they will no longer contribute towards agency operating expenses, or consider changes in direct funding of service plans, unless it sets up a separate and non- sectarian board and administration. The condition was made in a letter to the agency from Mr. Toupin dated March 24th.

Well apparently the whole consideration is the fact that this board represents one particular group of people in our society, they look after children of all religious faiths, they are doing a good job of it, but these things are apparently not the determining factors as to whether they will receive government assistance. I think this is a peculiar sort of precedent to be establishing. I know that there are within Manitoba school divisions, or school boards, that are composed completely of French Catholics, and in effect those schools are parochial schools.

Now I wonder if he's going to say that they can no longer have government funding unless they place people from other racial groups, or racial minor ities, on their boards. I wonder what they would do in Quebec if you said they couldn't have an all- French school board. I think this is a strange sort of criterion on which to pin his decision. This agency has received $20, 000 from the government for the past two years.

They have, I thought somewhere here they mentioned the numbers of children that they looked after, and I think that for the government to establish such a pressure on this group on the basis of the fact that they are of one particular religious faith, they have well what should we call it, they have a mission, they want to help children, and there are not enough facilities - some of the facilities that we have are not of an adequate quality and I think it's a very poor situation to pick on this particular board and say we can't support you any longer.

June 16, 1972 3073 (MRS. TRUEMAN cont1d) I recently spoke in the House concerning the matter of assistance rateswhich had not been changed since 1969. I would have hoped that the Minister would take the opportunity to state his intentions. There are people who are actually suffering in my opinion and the opinion of diet itians, people throughout the communities, that they are actually suffering from a degree of malnutrition. I have talked with some of the people and they say they are just so tired of ham burger they can't look at it any more, and for that matter they can't afford any more hamburger even.

The rates are certainly inadequate in the face of inflation, the increased cost of living, and I simply can't pay any attention to the reports that come from some directions that the government says, well we can't do anything about the rates because the Opposition made such criticisms. I refuse to believe that there's anybody who•s elected to this Legislature who would take such a political point of view when they should be considering the health of the people. I hope the government is seriously considering improving these rates in the near future.

It's my impression from the information that's coming around that there is in fact a guaranteed annual income experiment under way in this province. It's a supplementation of wages program, it would be interesting to hear the Minister report to others whether this is in fact so. Now that we have passed a motion for a speed-up, Mr.

Chairman, it's quite possible that the Private Resolution on Corrections will not surface again during the session and there were in my opinion, statements from a number of members of the House which deserve a reply from the Minister so that I would hope that he would take advantage of any time that he has today to tell us what improvements are going to be made, except for the housing facilities, at the new site in the old Fort Osborne area.

I would like to hear something about new programs and new training of staff and this sort of thing which might improve the care that the child receives when he first comes to the attention of provincial authorities. At the moment, Mr. Chairman, I believe that's all that I want to say, perhaps there will be another chance further down in the Estimates. . . . . . continued on next page

3074 June 16, 1972 MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 63 (a ) (1) . The Honourable Member of Health and Social Deve lopment. MR . TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, I would not want to prevent the Honourable Member to speak on Resolution 63 if he wants to -- I can answer later. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR . GEORGE HE NDERSO N (Pembina): Mr. Chairman, I only want to make a few re marks. I feel that when I spoke before I was somewhat, shall we say, baffled by the way they thumped the desks and everything when I started.

As a re sult of that I ended up by congratu lating the Minister and all I was really meaning to do was to congratulate him for his courage to continue under the face of such criticism that he gets, and whether it's justly or not, I don't know, but he has an awful lot of courage to continue as Minister because -- (Interjection) -- no I really don't want to congratulate the Minister, I just want to congratulate him on the courage that he has had to continue with the criticism he does get, because if I was in his position and had as much criticism, I'd have said they could keep that job and I'd get out of it, because he doesn't seem to be doing the right thing.

You know it's unfortunate that the Minister has got himself into the position he has. He's got himself into the position of what you might say "no return", and it happened very accidentally I think because he's working with a government that's devoted to discouraging thrift and savings, and so being a part of them I guess he thinks that he'll discourage thrift and savings, and that means you have to give more and more welfare programs out.

I believe I heard a few remarks that the number of people on welfare now was dropping somewhat but due to the figures that were released in the unemployment the other day, they definitely should be dropping, and I'd be very disappointed in the Minister if there isn't a very noticeable indi cation of this in the very near future. If he wants to see how the people of Manitoba feel about him, I think probably he should go out and do some campaigning in the constituency of Wolsele y. I just wonder what type of reception he got.

He probably hit some homes there where the people were on Welfare and he went there and so he probably got a lot or praise. -- (Interjec tion ) -- I did some campaigning in Wolseley and time after time I came into households where they said that they felt that Welfare Program was being terribly handled, that it was just en couraging people to be on welfare and that they were very disappointed in that.

I think that the Minister can very easily recall when he appeared at the Rural Municipal Convention and when he had the question and answer period, and there's just no mistaking about this, he got up there feeling pretty good to answer questions thinking he could talk about the government's ideas and how good they were working, but if you had heard the reception he got from the rural municipalities, he was booed on a lot of his answers and some of the ones he gave, the people didn't believe him and there's no mistaking about that.

If he wants to re member, or to think about how the country feel about him, he just needs to remember this meeting of the rural municipalities, and I was there, and others were there, and there's no mistaking about it. In fact it was shown up in the Press for the next few days. I am sure that the people in :Manitoba are very disappointed in the way the whole thing has been handled. He says that he has to follow the Act, that he has to do what the Act says. He just stated this, and that the Act has to be changed-- this is what should be done.

Well I read something into the record here before where they had been interviewing the Minister, and where they had brought up certain things; and he wrote back that the social worker wasn't follo wing the Act but still nevertheless allowance went on just the same so in other words he wasn't really see ing that the Act was enforced, he was using it-- giving it lip service but that was about as far as it was going.

I still say, and I'm sure that many of you people know that if there is to be savings in this department, that it really should get back to being administered by local municipalities; with the cost coming from the provincial government -- the money coming from it. But it's the local people that can really administrate this program much better than the people in the city.

An awful lot of the social welfare workers may have to get some kind of a degree before they can go out on the job, but when they get out there, they- - to my opinion I should say- they don't know anything about how other people work for a living. They could easily be people that have been brought up in fine homes, where they have never had to walk and they go out into some of the places where they are applying for welfare, and because it isn't as good as home they think these people should have plenty of comforts. And I must say that I don't

June 16 , 1972 3075 (MR. HENDERSON cont'd) .. .. . believe that the people that are on welfare should be abused; the people that need it; the people that are handicapped and crippled and things like this. But we know of so many others that could help themselves that aren't -- and this is what the people of Manitoba are talking about, the people that can help themselves. And I believe myself that people that are able-bodied and can work should be out working -- and this is what they have in New Brunswick. I would just like to read a little bit of this

article into the record. This is from Fredericton: "Refusal of welfare recipients to accept employment when it is available is justification for the withdrawal of social assistance." Now is that your policy? Is that your policy? What happens when they are offered employment in Manitoba and they don't take it? This here

article here, you can have it if you want it, I'm reading from it -- it goes on to state other things about it and where the cases are examined and so forth. But this is the thing, you know, what is your policy? Is anybody ever cut off because they won't work? When a man is picked for a job he should be picked because he is devoted towards the over-all objective of the govern ment. And I noticed \\hen the government set up the Feed Grains Commission, the people that they wanted to act on behalf of the government, they picked people that were devoted towards doing this.

Now is the present Minister devoted towards cutting down expenses and getting people off welfare and into jobs, or is he devoted towards trying to help everybody thinking that more and more should be doled out. I would say that it must be the latter. -- (Interjec- tion) -- I won't say that. · Well I think myself with the number of civil servants the Minister has, that he must be devoted towards building his own empire within the government -- because he's got so many civil servants under him, and I believe there is getting to be more and more.

And I believe on this basis that the Minister should probably never have been selected for the job, because I believe with all his sincerity he's devoted towards helping the people; he believes everything he's told is gospel truth and he goes out and says, oh you poor soul, and they're all going on. I don't believe he ever takes his Ministers with him and gives them a talking to and says, now listen you watch what you're doing here; you watch what you're doing there. I don't know whether they ever get any real fatherly advice from him.

I think probably he's always -- "oh the poor souls, they need more" -- and I wish that the Minister would either change his mind or that it be changed. I think if he keeps on in the position he is, and I think the government is becoming more aware of it, that the very administering of the social development policy in Manitoba can be one of the things that will defeat you in the next election. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J, EINARSON (Rock Lake): Well Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to make a few comments.

Having listened to the Member for Pembina I think it relates to some of the comments I want to make insofar as the area of Manitoba in which I live and represent. I can recall when I was a member of the government on that side -- and the member for Sour is-Killarney is not here, so I think I should like to say a few words which -- in his area, it was mine at that time. But Mr.

Chairman, I thought we had started something t.IJ.at I was hoping would come to fruition in that part of Manitoba, namely the Sanatorium at Ninette in volved a large portion of that part of Manitoba where we had the involvement of the doctors of all the hospitals to try to establish what we called a care centre for senior citizens at the Ninette Sanatorium; has a facility there that we had hoped that we could convert into that sort of thing that I thought would be a great service to the people of that part of the province.

And much to the surprise of my colleague from Souris-Killarney and myself, I think it was over a year ago when the Minister stood up and announced an expenditure of about $100, 000 to convert it into a correctional institution for Indians. I have no objection, Mr. Chairman, let me make this abundantly clear, that I have no objection to providing funds to do this for our Indian people of this province. But we have a facility there that would have been much more suited I think towards this, and the problem, Mr.

Chairman, is that as I'm given to understand that this Minister -- and here I'm going to criticise him very severely, and I'll tell him this is one of the reasons why he's in the trouble he's in. And I don't want to sympathize as my colleague from Pembina has to some extent felt sympathetic, but has he ever consulted with a doctor for this province.

The Manitoba Medical Association have done everything and in many occasions tried to get communication with him and have failed -- and I want to say that he has not done this, has not communicated with the doctors in my part of the country, and this is one of the reasons why he's having a lot of grave troubles.

3076 June 16, 1972 (MR. EINARSON cont'

d) The other thing is he says that if a person is offered a job who's on welfare, and he said it's a policy that if they're offered a job and on welfare, they'll be taken off welfare providing a job is offered to them. The facts are, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister is trying to portray a kind of policy that is acceptable to the people of Manitoba while his social workers are going out and doing the very opposite. Mr. Chairman, I think this is another area where the Minister is in trouble.

You know I think that's just being a little bit dishonest with the people of this province and this is the way this government is operating on far too many occasions as far as I'm concerned, because I've had a few experiences when I've brought to the attention of the Minister and I've found that the things that I had hoped would develop and the problems would be aired and corrected, have not been corrected. I don't know whether this is correct to say, Mr.

Chairman, but I've heard that when this government took office they had plans for 20 community clinics in the Province of Manitoba re gardless of how the people of the province felt about this particular aspect. The Minister has found that he has run into an awful lot of criticism, an awful lot of static, as the Member from Fort Rouge says, and probably has had to retract in some cases and probably reconsider their whole plan on this matter.

Because many people are saying we have services not only in the cities but in our rural communities and what is the Minister planning on doing with those ser vices we now have. Because the impression I gather and what little information I can get, Mr. Ch airman, is that it's a duplication of what we already have, and this is certainly not money spent wisely insofar as the taxpayers of this province is concerned. These are some things, Mr. Chairman, that I think the people are concerned about in the province and I don't know-- I'm getting back to the sanatorium of Ninette.

Has the Minister definitely made up his mind that this is what he's going to do with that institution? It would be most regrettable if he does, because there are many senior citizens admitted to a hospital for medic al attention and there comes a day when the medical attention is no longer required but they can't go back to their homes or wherever they were residing because they do need some care, and as a result of that we thought this was an ideal spot for a care home for senior citi zens.

The other thing that looked good to us was the fact that so many of the senior citizens would be closer to their friends and their relatives and the members of their family rather than have to be shifted off miles further away from home. So I am wondering if the Minister has had second thoughts on this particular project in that part of the province. I think it's a very important one and I'm wondering whether he has listened to the local people, to the doctors lately, and also would he indicate to us where does the Board of the Sanatorium stand on this matter?

And also where does his own department stand on this matter? On e more thing is, to stress again, Mr. Chairman, is the fact that I realize that our wel fare problem is a very difficult one. Those people who are charged with the responsibility to decide who will have welfare, or who will receive it and who will not is a very difficult one and I appreciate that. But, Mr. Chairman, the kind of attitude, the kind of philosophy that this government has been portraying over the last several years has given the people the idea that well why should I work, I can get more money on welfare.

It's becoming a very dangerous situation, Mr. Chairman, if we're going to continue on this course. So, Mr. Chairman, with those few remarks I would like to hear what the Minister has to say. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie, MR. G. JO HNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I believe the Minister will notice that I haven't taken

part in the debate on his Estimates until now. But I would like to make perhaps two points. On e is I think that he has the most difficult ministry in the government. It's something that is extremely hard to obtain satisfaction from because by and large the department is dealing with difficult problems of people and the woes of the unfortunate, so I can't really say that I think he's doing all that badly. He's been criticized in this House but it's a very difficult department and it's an extremely difficult job for the people who are working with the folks who need the help in this province.

I might say that in all my dealings I have had with the Portage la Prairie Department of Health and Social Development that I've found them to be fair and kind, human and understanding. I can't really say that I've noticed any of the abuses that have been talked about in this House, although in dealing with human nature there is bound to be some poor rul ings made by a social worker. There is bound to be some mistakes made in the handling of the vast amounts of money that have to be handled in the system that we're under. And it isn't only

June 16 , 1972 3077 (MR. G. JOHNSTON cont'd) . . . . . in Manitoba. This is all across Canada. The system has sort of been built like Topsy, it needs a complete overhaul I guess and the guaranteed annual income approach is probably as good a way to attack this as any. The one criticism I do have, and perhaps it's only -- could be directed to one or two of the social workers. But I have found now on two occas ions where I have had people come to me with problems that it seems to me the social worker has not explained in detail what the alternatives are for a person who could be considered empl oyable.

One case that I could relate to the House is a young woman who was deserted by her husband and left with two children. She felt deeply the stigma , I suppose, you would say of having to take assi stance from the state or the province , and she didn't know until I had pointed out to her that under the Federal pro gram of retraining through the Ma�wer Department that she could retrain, upgrade her education and retrain into a job where she could become self-sufficient.

And on two occas ions now I'v e found that the social worker has not pointed this out to her client, that if she wished to she could take advantage of the Federal program to upgrade her education, to train into a pro fessi on or a job such as a stenographer or a -secretary or a hair stylist or whatever.

On two occas ions I had to point this out to the reciepent of state aid and believe me in both occasi ons the cl ients of the welfare system did not know, the social worker did not tell them that if tL'ley wished to there was a method whereby hard work and perseverance they would have a chance to become self-sus taining.

So while this is a mild criticism I feel that there should be more emphasis put upon the social worker to always draw to the attention of the cl ient that there is a way and a method for those who are able-bodied, for those who do not have -- and I'm talking now of women -- where their children are not that young that they can take the retraining and can get back into the mainstream of society and earn their living. MR. CHAIRMAN: _ The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. The Honourable Member for Ro blin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Chairman, I have a few remarks to say to the Honourable Minister on his Es timates and I again support the remarks of the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie that this Minister I think has one of the toughest jobs that any man could ask for -- (Interjection) --· Yes, I respect the remarks of the Honourable Member for Radisson. But here's a Minister that's dealing I think with the personal life of every citizen in this pro vince , man, woman and child.

He's also exposed to the problem of the unemployed in our society; he's also exposed to the high venereal disease rate that's in our society today; he's also exposed to the problems of trying to get a bed in a hospital; I daresay any problem that anybody gets up with early in the morning I'm sure that a bt of people think of the Minister of Health and Social Environment, I think this is where government today has to finally stand up and formulate a policy as how we're going to deal with this problem that's upon us today.

We can't ride on this type of a life or this type of society much longer because it's going to break the people of this province and it's going to break all Canada, because we can't live on this type of a social state today where we're paying these exorbitant estimates that the Minister is asking in his Es timates here -- the figure is , you !mow, close to $ 200 millio n. I dares ay that I haven't got the answers to all these problems , but I look about the future and I look about_ Canada and I look about British Columbia and all across this country.

What's going to happen all across this country if we follow the policies that we are following today with regard to the health and welfare and the social environment of our people. I don't think there's one member in this Legisla ture today who will stand up and say that he's not for making certain that every body has a shelter over his head at night, that he's got drugs and things to look after his health and make sure that he gets up tomorrown morning a healthy person. So with those remarks, Mr.

Chairman, I'm sure the Ministers needs all the help of the government and I' m darn sure he needs all the help of all the members of the opposition as well to try and hopefully come up with ways and means to resolve a very difficult problem that we are faced with in Manitoba and across Canada today. Of course the one that bugs me right away, and I get this every day, is the problem about nursing homes. And this is not an easy problem tq resolve. We have a iot of our senior citi zens in Manitoba today arriving at the twili ght of their career and due to health reasons they need the care of a nursing home.

So what happens, Mr. Chairman? A couple in my village the other day, both blind, they're in their nineties and they finally -- the nursing home was built in Russell and I congratulate the Minister for that incentive -- they had to sell all their assets

3078 June 16 , 1972 (MR. McKEN ZIE cont'd) . . . . . and this old couple I'm sure had antiques that are invalu able, but due to a hasty sale and the way the matter was disposed of it was all sold and it's all over. So they are in a nursing home today and they're happy there and I'm all for that. But it gives somebody a sort of a let down feeling and the Minister likely will understand.

They worked all their lives and gave up their 90 years of life in this country to try and make it a little better than they found it and all of a sudden on the day of jurisdiction when they arrived and had to go to a nursing home they had to sell the whole thing. Things no doubt that could have gone to their families, things that are of an antique nature, invaluable, a lot of it they'd like to take with them, but unfortunately we can't abide by that.

So they are in a nursing home today and they are reasonably happy with the environment and they're most grateful for the way the government has taken care of them and they certainly needed care of that nature. It can't be under the regulations, under Medicare -- and whether we can move that far only the Minister can decide and I'm sure he's going to answer us in his reply. The rural hospitals , I see some of the rural hospitals in my constituency are deteriorat ing to a level where basically they can't do the exercise of taking care of the sick -- and I cite the example of the Roblin Hospital.

Now if you're going to build a hospital in Russ ell which you've already done, and provide them with a nursing home , and provide them with a home for the senior citizens, you cre ate a problem about 30 miles up the road becauseRo blin's hospital is obsolete. They have no nursing home so everybody wants to go to Russell. So you try and alleviate one problem and you create about 14 others, and no doubt the Minister in his remarks will solve that problem. The other one that comes to my attention, Mr. Chairman, and comes to my attention day after day is the Welfare Advosiry Committee.

Now I don't know whether the Minister appointed these people or whether they were done by government but what is the authority of this Welfare Advisory Committee ? Where are we going to go with this committee ? Where are the municipalities going to go ?

I just happened to attend the regional meeting of the Union of Municipalities in Roblin the other day and we see it in a bill that's coming before the House here , I think it's Bill 47 , where they no longer will have any say whatsoever in the jurisdic tion of welfare in that particular jurisdiction, their jurisdiction where they're in charge of the tax dollar , they're the ones that collect the tax dollar. The school boards through various methods have overrode that jurisdiction but the municipalities today in this province are fed up because they basically have no authority whatsoever.

They thought they had control of the school costs in this problem, Mr. Chairman, but they find out today they have no control whatsoever. They thought they had control of the welfare system in these municipalities, they find out today due to the wisdom of the Welfare Advisory Committee they have no control whatsoever because the Welfare Advisory Committee can overrule them on any issue.

And on the new bill that's coming before us instead of the word being "may" it's now changed to "shall" so basically we don1t need the municipalities to be in that debate or maybe we should just for get about them and it be all handled through the Minister's office. But I don't think the Mini ster can handle all these things that's been placed on his desk today. My gosh go through his Estimates and find the pages and pages of things that he's responsible for. Mr .

Chairman, in all sincerity I respect the Honourable Minister, I know he's a young bright Manitoban, but my gosh how much can one Minister assume the responsibility of the people of this province , and I again go back to the same thing. The Minister is responsible in some small way for every citizen in this Province and I can look across that treasury bench and I don't know of no other Minister except him that has something to do with every citizen in this pro vince. He's the only one.

I hope in all his wisdom and the time that's at his disposal that he can come up with some solution to this very serious problem, and I shall not deal with the welfare problems in my constituency because, Mr. Chairman, that would take me the next six months. I got farmers in my constituency that make 15 , 000 bucks on we lfare. I shall not dwell on that, or we'll go to that. But the one thing that concerns me about this is the Minister in this department he's getting hung up on politics, and I see , in all sincerity to you, Mr.

Chairman , and through you to the Minister, there's no room in this department for politics at all. You can dream your political idealogies and philosophies out of some other department but for gosh sakes let' s have no political dreamer s in your department. I want some hard-nosed businessmen that knows a buck' s a buck and knows what the needs of the people of this province are, and then after you've had that kind of expertise drawn around your department, then maybe you can afford yourself the luxury of some political creature.

June 16 , 1972 3079 (MR . McKENZIE cont'

d) But I suspect, Mr. Chairman, in all sincerity, that the Minister has been attracted, or he has attracted or somebody has attracted to his department some of the most red-eyed socialists that Manitoba has ever seen in this province. How the Minister can get up in the morning and go to bed at night and finally get back to his department to deal with some of these serious problems of Manitoba today, I don't think it's possi ble , because he's got these philo sophers , these dreamers , these politicia ns and these people attracted -- and there's hundreds of them in his department.

So basically I suspect that by the time the Minister locks up his office door at night and goes home he hasn't done anything for the people of this province. All he's tried to do is pacify that great bunch of people that are in his department today dreaming about I don't know what. And this is what the people of my constituency are concerned about. The Mini ster is a nice young fresh Manitoban but he's attracted himself some people that I don't -- I don't know how he could debate with those people. In all sincerity, I really don't. Mr.

Chairman, I would like to talk about the various injustices in that department that are going on all across this province. I think what we need is a hard-nosed Minister to get rid of that gang of so-ca lled philosophers he's got around him. He was born in this province , he was raised in this province , he knows the people of this province , he worked in the credit union; nobody knows this province better and its people than that Minister. Get rid of your philos ophers and your dreamers and you be the hard-nosed Minister and let's get back down to look at the services and the problems of Manitoba.

INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Before I recognize the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie, may I draw the attention of the honourable members to the gallery on my right where we have 20 students of Grades 7 and 8 standing of the Darlingford School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Jake Martens. This school is located in the constit uency of the Honourable Member for Pembina. On behalf of all the honourable members of the Manitoba Legislative As sembly, I bid you welcome. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (C ont'

d) MR . G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker , I shall be brief.

The re's one point I forgot to bring to the attention of the Minister, but before I start on that I would like to remind my honourable friend the Member for Roblin that the Social Allowances Act that I think he is complaining most bitterly about was introduced with a great deal of breast-beating and self-congratulation by the administration under the former Premier of this province , Duff Roblin; so if there are any problems that he may find -- basic ally the Act has not been changed that much -- and I would suggest to him that he perhaps go over the Act with the idea of finding some method of making an improvement there and that's all I say in that regard.

But I would like to draw to the attention of the Minister a particular problem that I have in my constituency. There has been a local group of people formed themselves into an associa tion with the idea of starting a day-care centre in Portage la Prairie. They have enlisted the aid of St. Mary's Anglican Church, they have a group of volunteers who are willing to gb to work and help on this project but they need some government assistance. All they're asking is the same type of assi stance that has already been given by this government to certain day care centres in the rest of the province.

I believe the majority of them are in Wiimipeg and in conversation with the Minister he tells me that there is one now in operation at The Pas. Now it is my understanding that there is indirectly some federal government money involved here. I believe in all of Canada there have been $4 million allo tted which if one goes by percentages Manitoba should have about $2 00, 000 of federal money to help in this regard.

Now I shouldn't say my complaint is but I am wondering why when this group from Portage approached the Minis ter's department were given a very vague and inconcl usiv e reply to their request -- a very simple request. Surely when a group of citizens who have unselfish motives are prepared to do something then the Minister and his officials have a duty to either tell it the way it is and say, look we can't help you -- or else say well here is our policy, and this policy appli e s equally whether it's in Winnipeg or The Pas or any other part of Manitoba.

Surely these people deserve a straight answer and surely they deserve the same kind of help that is given in this regard in any other co=unity in Manitoba. As a matter of fact, I would go a step further and

3080 June 16 , 1972 (MR . G. JOHNSTON cont'd) . . . . . say that the Minister should issue a press release spel ling aut the criteria for those people in the various communities who wish to enter into or assist a Day Care Nursery Program for working mothers so that every community of any size should know how they would qualify, what they should do , and how they can attack this problem. I'm sure the Minister would understand that if a working mother wants to go to work, this will cer tainly lighten the load and the spending of the Department of Health and Social Services.

So a dollar spent in this way will certainly save many many dollars that would go out, go back out to people who find that they've had to stay at home because they had no place to place their children but they wanted to work. And I am very interested in hearing what the Minister has to say in this regard. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development -- I pretty near said the time. The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Chairman, in replying to questions , I am again going to go back to questions that were asked a few weeks ago because I hadn't quite finished -- and I am going to deal with questions posed to me by the Honourable Member for Roblin that he asked a couple of weeks ago. The honourable member was making reference to a drug education program by means of the news media. I thought that this could be very beneficial. I know it has been in other pro vinces in Ca nada and I would like to mention to the honourable member that we've made some studies on this.

We've even taken some space already for a period of one month and were trying to find out the effects of that trial test that we've had in the Province of Manitoba to have it applicable , not only pertaining to one station but to other radio stations and television if it's. at all possible. I think that this could prove to be very beneficial to those who are in need of the services that are offered by the Department of Health and Social Development and/or the Manitoba He alth Services Commission.

The honourable member is aware as he mentioned in his remarks that this can be very costly, and it can be a shared responsibility with different levels of government and private agencie s. I cannot but agree with the honourable member that this v.ould be a worthy venture for the future, but it needs more study. The honourable member asked me today questions pertaining to the escalating costs of health and welfare , and I did touch on this a while ago -- the honourable member was not in the House.

Without wanting to repeat myself I would ask the honourable member to maybe read Hansard once its printed, and I think you'll find some comments that I made that are showing at least some alternatives that we feel are worthy of consideration by honourable members of the House. The honourable member made reference to senior citizen and nursing home accommoda tion in the Province of Manitoba.

I believe that the honourable member is quite aware of what has been done , not only for his constituency but for all of Manitoba pertaining to senior citizens construction and nursing home construction either private or non profit nursing homes in the Province of Manitoba. This is certainly an alternative to one of the causes of the high cost of . rendering health care in the Province of Manitoba. It's not the only one, but I believe that we can look at nursing homes as being an alternative to acute care facility.

I would like to emphasize to the honourable member that the Department of Health and Social Development and the Co mmission are looking at a large input into home care which we see in other provinces; we see a lot in the Scandinavian countries, and I believe that we should put more emphasis on home care where people can be acco mmodated at home at a less cost to the state -- and I feel that this can be done very effectively, not only be departments of government but equally by means of different hospital boards in the Province of Manitoba, where we can get co-operation between hospital s, nursing homes , senior citizens homes and home care.

And here I feel that there has to be very close co-operation with all those that are involved in the delivery of health care. The honourable member was mentioning that the hospitals in his constituency -- some of them at least left much to be desired insofar as the upgrading of facilitie s.

Well here I would like to encourage the honourable member either to sit with myself or encourage the different hospital boards to sit with officials of the Health Services Commiss ion to try and get an agree ment to upgrade these facilities where feasible; or to have the existing facility co-ordinate their care with other facilities in the area. I think we have to more and more in the future look at rendering health and social development services by means of a region and maybe get away from, you know, facilitie s that are so close by. As the honourable member knows, we have

June 16 , 1972 308 1 (MR . TOUPIN cont'd) .... . hospitals in the Prov ince of Manitoba that are five , six mile s apart and I don't feel that, you know, it is feasible in the future because of the high risi ng costs of deliv ery to be able to sustain , you know, facilitie s so close by. We have to deal with the delivery of health and social deve lopment on a regional basis. The honourable member seemed quite concerned with the Welfare Advisory Co mmittee.

The Welfare Advisory Co mmittee was appointed by the government; it is made compulsory by means of the Canada Ass istance Plan; they do operate by means of the Social Allowance Act and these regulations - if they don't follow the Act or the regulatio ns , I for one would like to know. I have been advis ed in the past that, you know, there was cases where the line was very thin - and it has been referred to, their decision has been referred to the courts in the past as the honourable member is quite aware , and that is the appeal to the Welfare Advi sory Commi ttee itself.

They actually take decis ions pertaining to my regional directors not only pertaining to the assis tance being given by municipalities , and I feel that they are to a great extent doing good work -- but if we feel as a government or if the Opposition feels that the Act or the regu lations that they operate under is too loose , I think it's for us as members of this House to tighten up the Act and to make sure that they follow its regulations.

The honourable member was--making reference to maybe an input of businessm en so far as -- I am not quite sure here if he meant the Welfare Advisory Co mmittee itself or to the different boards that we have across this province that are made responsible for the allocation of welfare. Well I for one could mention to the honourable member that I've been in all three re sponsibilities in the province; I have operated a pri vate business , my father is still in the private business. He's a farmer and he operates a general store and for 20 years I helped him. I've been in the co- operative movement for ten years.

I am now and have been for the past three years in the Social Democra tic Government and I feel that we should be concerned with good people on all our boards, never mind if they're businessm en or people in the co-o perative move ment or those who are _more concerned with the social attitudes of our citizens. I think we should look at good qualified people , that's very important. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. I would ask the honourable member not to keep speaking from the seat of his trousers. . . . . . continued on next page.

3082 June 16, 1972 MR . TOUPIN : Mr. Chairman, I would like to make reference to some questions and comments made by the Honourable Member for St. Vital. He made reference to a

section within the Highway traffic Act which compels individuals to get a medical report and if this is referred by a third party, is not covered under Medicare.

The Commission does not ensure services or examinations which are rendered at the request of a third party; such as services for employment , insurance, attendance at university or for recreation purposes - because these services are not considered to be medically required, If an employer demands that an employee or a potential employee must have a medical exam, then the employer or the pros pective employee should be prepared to assu me the cost of the exam, Likewise if an insur ance company to reduce a risk or the prospective client to obtain insurance requires a medi cal exam before insuring an individual, either the insurance company or the client should assume the cost of such an exam.

The main purpose, Mr. Chairman, of the plan is to pro tect Manitoba residents against financial hardship which could arise from illness or accident . The Federal Government requires that services must be medically required before they will cost-sha re, The provincial legislation also stipulates that services must be medically re quired. If the cost for this type of service was to be ensured by the Commis sion, it could lead to indiscriminate ordering of this type of service. The honourable member made reference to physically handicapped children and lack of co-operation between agencies.

Well here I must say, Mr. Chairman, that there is always room for more co-operation between different levels of government and private agencies - and I for one have tried over the last two and a half years to get closer co-operation so that we can avoid for one, duplication; and secon dly, to become more effective in the delivery of this type of service to those involved in it.

Unfortunately the Honourable Member for Churchill is not here, but for his benefit I would like to put on the record that I was very happy to see that he agrees that we all look at high cost but few of us find viable alternatives -- and the Member for Roblin made reference to this a while ago, It is not only the responsibility of the government to find viable alterna tives to the high cost of rendering health and socia l development care in the province , it is equally the responsibility of all member s of this House and all of those who are concerned - and able to find viable alternatives.

I am ha ppy to see that the Member for Churchill does not agree with the philosophy of Prime Minister Trudeau giving the right to the unemployed employables to remain on social allowanc e. And that is a very clear statement made by the Prime Minister of Canada, It is only a sick philosophy. It is a very sick philosophy to say that those who are unemployed employables have a right to remain unemployed and still employable, but it is only a philosophy for the sick, and let's not forget this.

Those who are unemployed employables - I've said this in the past, and I say it again and more specifically maybe for the Honourable Member for Pembina, that those that can take work that are healthy are able to perform the job offered to them; and if they refuse, we not only have the right but we have the obligation to take them off the social allowance role. The honourable member made reference to drug abuse within our province. I agree that all measures sho.uld be taken to curtail illicit drug use.

I congratulate the Member for Churchill for his liberal approach to the correctional system within our department, The Honourable Member for Rock Lake was impatiently waiting for my remarks in an swers to questions. Unfortunately the honourable member is out of the House at this stage but he too could read some of the comments that I have to make in Hansard. Well this is one of my first opportunities that I have had to answer some of the questions and I' m happy to do so, He accused me of being a weak Minister.

Well I did - or have not - I've never pretended to be that strong; but I am asso ciated with a strong party and a very strong government and I am surrounded with good sound qualified civil servants , even after what the Honourable Member for Roblin said, I feel that the majority of the civil servants that are employed by the Depart ment of Health and Social Development are good civil servants and that they are taking their responsibilities seriously, And I feel that I can rely on the biggest majority of civil servants within my department - and I must tell the Honourable Member that I am trying to perfect my self; and I think everyone should do that no matter how old he is or she is - and that I am try ing to perform my duties to the level that is expected of me and I feel no one can expect more.

The honourable member made reference equally to the Welfare Advisory Board - and a statement made by one of the members of the Board that there were enough funds in the

Ju ne 16, 1972 3083 (MR. TQUPIN cont'd) .•••• Province of Manitoba to meet the needs of all people. Well I can't disagree with that. I feel that if somebody is in need in the province of Manitoba, seri ously in financial straits, that there is enough funds - whatever level of government is re sponsible - to meet that need and I feel that we should meet it. If a need is expressed and is not there, I don't feel that level of government should give that person the financial assis tance that is required.

We only have to go back - and the Honourable Member for Rock Lake would know this more clearly than I- that if we go back to 1938; I was born in the dirty thirties, I could give you a short history of my life and it hasn't been that rosy. You know the Federal Government then - and I can remember this , walking up Portage Avenue - my father was living in the country; I was walking on Portage Avenue in early 1939, and the war had been declared, and one of my uncles was reportedly killed overseas - and I can remember it as if it happened yesterday.

Millions and millions of dollars were being poured by the Federal Government to fight the war , not in Canada, overseas. We have a war in Canada today, and what happens ? What happens to the war on poverty in Canada a nd in the United States today ? Are we pouring the same funds - that we didn't hesitate two seconds in 1939 to pour in the economy ? We're not.

We 're setting up - that's right - we're setting up committees to study the advisability ofJ I feel that we have funds ; we shouldn't spend those funds , you know, without justifiction - but I feel that all levels of governments should attack the problems that we have. And this - one day, if we took the preventive measures that were taken back in 1939 all through 1945, that we could see the plateau one day. We predict the es calating cost of health and welfare to be more than what our country can provide in five, ten yea rs.

But if we or if the Conservatives - and I have to blame the Conservatives here for their ten years of administration - if they had taken the preventive measures that must be taken today, it would have been a different story. And I must predict that if we as a government do not take preventive measures - that will cost more, that will cost more - you can't forget that. If you have two systems - one that you're fighting fires -- (Interjection) -- I' m answering questions, there is concerns on your side of the House.

If we take preventive measures and if we keep on fighting fires that were caused by many circumstancefl of the past -- (Interjection) -- initially - you don't like it Mr. Bilton. Initially it's going to cost more , but eventually you will see a levelling off of the cost of rendering health and social services care in the province of Manitoba. -- (Inter je ction) -- We must do that. -- (Interjection) -- At least two memb ers of the Opposition, Mr. Chairman, seem to take exception of the fact that staff within the Department of Health and Social Development are socialists , at least soci ally minded; well I don't.

I'm glad to see that my staff, at least the majority of the staff of the Department of Health and Social Development are socially minded and concerned and want to help me as a Minister ; and help this government; help the people of this province�meet the needs of all those who are in need of our services through health and socia l development. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge made reference to non-ward children etc. , Je wish Child Services.

On the Je wish Child Services , I can only say that the grant system and the per diem paid for the Je wish Child Services is the same, and I have related this to them by letter - with exactly the same as any other private agency that, you know, will accept anyone as a client, and that 's made very clear - and the per diem and the administration cover age of their cost is based on that. Under the Special Dependent Care

Section we pay up to an amount euqal to cost of this special care. The Special Dependent Care Program includes cases of earning fathers and mothers where special cares are required for a dependent child or where special cares are required for the disabled wife of an earning man. A portion of this program is that payments are made under Social Allowance in relation to earnings and the requirements of the earning rec ipient. It is therefore a cash supplementation program in whole or in part to the wage earner for the special care requirement.

The Social Allowance caseload as of March 1, 1972, and that I think would be an answer to the question asked by the Leader of the Opposition, was 29, 405 compared with May 31, 1972 of 28, 500 cases which is a decrease of approximately 900 cases. The Honourable Member for Pembina had a few comments to make regarding - well he was first of all congratulating, then he wasn't; I don't really know what he meant - I' m quite sure that he was very sincere in wanting to put forward a positive attitude in trying to solve some of the problems that we have within the Department of Health and Social Development .

He accused me of not making use of thrift and saving within the Department of Health and

3084 June 16, 1972 (1\ffi . TOUPIN cont'd) , •••. Social Development , and made reference to my affiliation to the co-operative movement and this was something that I definitely have to deny, I feel that every measure is taken to curtail abuse and to find viable alternatives to the existing pro-grams.

We must again say what the member for Portage mentioned to the Member for Pem bina , that the Social Allowance Act itself was presented by the previous administration, It was amended by this government, the regulation itself was - like the Honourable Member for Fort R'Ouge mentioned - changed back in 1969, but not prior to Ja nuary 25 , 1969, but after the 15th of July 1969, And those same rates are now being revised and the Social Allowance Act itself is being revised, so we can expect changes within the very near future pertaining to rates , pertaining to the Act itself and the regulations.

There was equally a reference, Mr. Chairman, made to the amendment to the Munici pal Act at this session; the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs presented amendments to the Municipal Act , which included a change of words that would be applicable to the Social Allowance Act pertaining to Social Allowance being made payable by the Municipalities, In the existing Act they may or may not have a by-law; the change would compel municipalities to have by-laws.

As you know, and I think I have to agree to a great extent with the Mem ber for Rock Lake that we should make use more and more of local people in not only helping solve some of the problems , but in administrating Social Allowance and other services that we render through Health and Social Development .

But in doing so I feel that we should equally make sure that they have some financial res ponsibility; and I don't feel that if we as a govern ment decided to become fully responsible, financially responsible for Social Allowance in the Province of Manitoba - that there would not be this incentive on the local level to become more and more involved - and this is why we're pres enting this amendment to the Mu nicipal Act. Some mun icipalities .•• 1\ffi . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister has five minutes. 1\ffi .

TOUPIN: Time surely flies, So that is briefly the reason why we're introducing this minor amendment to the Municipal Act which will be made applicable to the Social Allow ance Act, There was a lot of questions pertaining to abuse and what's being done by the Department of Health and Social Development to try and curtail some of these abuses - not only regarding to the department itself, but could be applicable equally to abus es that are directly the responsibility of another level of government, either the municipality or the Fed eral Government for treaty Indians, We as a province have included within our Es timates an amount which would be applicable to what we call Income Security Audit - and I feel that this is a necessity, and will not only help find those who are abusing the system but will help our personnel to become more efficient with the services that are being rendered, There is such a unit pres ently being established in the Community Operation Division which you will find within the Es timates.

This Unit will consist of five staff man-years to start off with - we have never seen this during your administration so , you know - and will perform detail audit on all files of welfare recipients for the purpose of insuring policy and Legislative com pliance , The unit will also be required to audit expenditures of social agencies such as Day Care Centres, Home Maintenance Services and other agencies which are designated by the province to administer se ctions of the Social Allowance Act, We have made two such audits to date.

We have made a complete audit of the Thompson region and of the Brandon region , and all regions of the province will be audited hopefully before the end of this fiscal year, In addition to their main role the Income Secur ity Audit Unit will be required to provide consulting support to regional offices in order to improve the administration of the Income Security Program, In the past months audits have been conducted at the regional offices at Thompson and Brandon, and I must say that in the report that I got in the last few days that there is a si!IJrificant amount of savings already that have been brought forward because of these two audits, I have figures.

Based on the findings of the audits, directors have been sent out to all regional offices - and you can have copies of these directives if you want to - which will serve to eliminate the identical disparities in offices not yet audited. In the next three to four months an audit will have been completed at each of the regional offices, and approximately 10 , 000 files will have been reviewed, Plans also call for a cheque hand-out procedure on a test basis similar to that which was recently introduced in la belle Province de Quebec.

The objectives of the Income Security Audit will be to provide the department with more effective administrative financial and program controls within the prese nt system, and ultimately to provide us with more consistent application of welfare policies, and I feel that this is most important, Mr. Chairman, I againhave run out of time , I havequite a fewmore notes and answers to some of the questions.

June 16, 1972 3085 MR . G. JOHNSTON: Mr . Chairman, I wonder by leave if the Minister can continue for the next ten minutes . Well then, Mr . Chairman, because I stand and speak, this means the Minister can now rise if he wishes -i f he is recognized by you - and take another twenty min utes . MR . CHAill MAN: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR . TOUPIN : Mr . Chairman , -- (Interjection) -- am I now being recognized ? MR . GRAHAM: Mr . Chairman , on a point of order .•• time expired . MR . TOUPIN: Oh, I've got anothe•· 30 minutes . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The point that the Honourable Member raised in this House during Estimate s, is entitled to speak for 30 minutes, subsequently if someone gets up and speaks in between, that person can rise again . The Minister has risen and I have recognized him . The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MRS . TRUE MAN: Mr .

Chairman, my question concerns the - I had hoped we' d proceed on to the Estimate s, but it concerns Emergency Transportation and the sums allotted this year appear to be quite u.11realistic , something like $29, 000 I believe last year over $200, 000 was spent, perhaps he would direct some of his remarks to this and explain how it 's reduc ed . MR . CHAIRMAN: Order , please . I had recognized the Honourable Minister -h e yielded the floor on a question I believe . Do you wish to ask a question ? -- (Interjection)-- I' m sorry I have already recognized the Minister . Order , please .

The Honourable Minister proceed . MR . TOUPIN: Mr . Chairma n , I 'm getting all kinds of advice here . I don't want to pre vent the honourable Members from speaking, and yet I've ... MR. CHAIRMAN: If the Honourable Minister wishes to yield the floor, that's his privi - lege . MR . TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker , I was just ... MR . BILTON: Mr. Chairman on a point of order . You allowed the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge to ask a question , You gave the floor to the Minister to answer the question . Could that not be done ? Could that not be done ? MR . CHAIRMAN: Order , please . Let's get this straight .

Every honourable member has the opportunity to speak for 30 minutes within the Estimate s. If some other honourable member gets up and speaks for one minute or 30 seconds or 10 seconds, that is considered his portion of that debate and he sits down . I recognized the Honourable Minister, the Minister yielded to a question from the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, the Minister has the floor . -- (Interjection)-- If the Honourable Minister wishes to accede, that's fine. The Honourable Member for Pembi na . MR .

HENDERSON : I would like to take a moment to say that I'm sorry I was out but I had a school in from my area . I was wondering what was your answer , if you don 't mind re peating it now, as to your policy if men are able to work and are offered work and refuse it . Unemployed employables. What is your policy ? MR . GRAHAM: ... ask the Minister a question before he replies ? MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Bi rtle-R usse ll . MR . GRA HAM: Thank you, Mr . Chairman .

The Minister made reference a few minutes ago to the change in the Municipal Act which would make it compulsory for a municipality to pass a by-law regarding the payment of welfare and I would like to know if the Minister is go ing to change the formula of payment to the municipalities for the welfare that they are going to be paying out as a re sult of the proposed changes in the Muni cipal Act . The reason I ask this question, Mr . Chairman , is the fact that it 's conceivable that the changes • . MR . CHAIRMAN: The honourable member is now procee ding to debate . He 's asked his question . MR . GRAHAM: Mr .

Chair man, that is just the first part of the que stion, there is a second part to it and I have to explain why the second

part is tied into the first . The first part of the question was, is the Minister going to change the formula that is set out for the payment to municipalities for welfare to the residents in the municipality and also those people that are found therein because that isn't part of the change in the Municipal Act .

And secondly, I want to ask the Minister if those payments are going to be made on a regular basis or are they going to wait until the end of the year where a municipality can conceivably have spent their entire municipal budget and forfeited their normal municipal program because all their money has been spent in welfare payments . I think it 's important that the Minister clearly identify the procedure that he is going to use because the municipal people in the Province of Manitoba are

3086 June 16 , 1972 (MR. GRAHAM cont' d.) . very concerned at this time about the vaguene ss of the ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please . Order� The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development . MR . TOUPIN: Well , Mr . Chairman, there 's still quite a few questions that were posed a couple of weeks ago that I haven 't answered . There 1 s still questions that were asked today that weren't answered . I' ll try and deal with them as quickly as pos sible in the five minutes that I have left.

The Member for Fort Rouge made comments pertaining to the Emergency Transportation allocation within the Estimates being approximately $21 ,0 00 . I would like not to take too much time on this and to refer the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge to Hansard where I dealt with this in quite a thorough manner, and I think she 'll get answers to her questions . The Honourable Member for Pembina wanted me to repeat again, for the third time , not my policy but the policy of this government pertaining to unemployed but employable .

I did mention a while ago that the policy of the Prime Minister of Canada was not the policy of this government so far as unemployed employables . That if a person is unemployed and employable, if he 's offered a job that he ca n perform and if he refuses the job he should be taken off welfare . That's our policy, very clear . The Member for Birtle-Russell made reference to the change, the proposed change be cause it's only before this House now, to the Municipal Act in regard to the change of word from "may" to "shall" in the Municipal Act in relation to the social allowanc e.

It can be made payable by the municipality. We have no intention at this stage to compel the municipalities to have standards that are uniform to the standards adopted by the Department of Health and Social Development . We could say that, but we are not . We are still leaving the discretion at the municipal level to determine the standards and the amount that they're going to pay . But, so far as the cost-s haring arrangement between the province and the municipality it remains the same for now .

If there is to be any revision pertaining to the cost-s haring agreement between the province and the municipality this is a question of policy that can be considered by this government . I ca nnot say more at this stage . But I would like, Mr . Chairman , in the few minutes that I have available to again make reference to the income security audit that we have in the province because I feel it's so im portant. The Honourable Member for Swan River seemed to question me when I was making the statement a while ago . He didn't seem to feel that I was being credible .

I would like to indicate, only as an example , that the very ... MR . CHAIRMAN: Order, pleas e. I think the honourable member who is a former Speaker of this House is setting a very bad example . MR . BILTON: Very well, Mr . Chairman . On a point of order, I did not make the state ment that the Minister accuses me of. Will you ask him to retract it ? MR . CHAIRMAN: Does the Honourable Minister ... to clear his statement ? MR . TOUPIN: Mr . Chairman , I'm eas y going, I retract whatever offended the honourable mem ber . I would only like to make reference to the first run of this audit in the region of Thompson .

And there was an initial saving of $4 7, 000 because of this . That 's indicative, that's very indicative . And the honourable member should accept that . We are in the process, like I said a while ago, of reviewing all regional offices - and it could have been done many years ago but it 's being done now under this administration - in order to ensure compliance with government policy pertaining to the Social Allowance Act . This is part of the audit which you recently supported which in the past has been existent even during the Conse rvative era . It was there but it wasn't being used.

I think it's important to say that, too . We were made aware by civil servants within Health and Social Development, by . .. MR . CHAIRMAN: Order, pleas e. The time being 4:30, the last hour of every day being Private Members' Hour , Committee rise and report. Ca ll in the Speaker . Mr . Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, has instruc ted me to report the same and ask leave to sit again .

June 16 , 1972 3087 IN SE SSION MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Logan . MR . WILLIAM JENKINS (Logan): Mr . Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honour able Member for Ste . Rose the report of the Committee be received . MR . SPEAKER pres ented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried . PRIVATE MEMBERS ' HOUR MR . SPEAKE R: First item Private Members' Hour , Frida y . The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR . PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker , in my capacity as House Leader I believe that there has been general agreeme nt that the hour being 4: 30 that the House would not proceed further, Sir, and that it be considered as being 5: 30 rather than 4: 30 . If this is agreed then I would like to make an announcement as to the procedure that I have at the pres ent time for the conduct of the House for next week. (Agreed) MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR . PAULLEY: Mr . Speaker, on Monday morning at 10:00 o' clock there will be the calling of the Committee on Municipal Affairs .

On Tuesday at the same hour , 10 :00 o'clock in the morning, the Committee on Public Utilities. It is anticipated that by Wednesday the Esti mates of the Government will have been completed, so therefore on Wednesday of next week at 10 :0 0 o'clo ck it is the intention of the government to call the House into Session. On Thursday morning at 10 :00 o' clock there will be a meeting of the Committee of Law Amendments, and Frida y morning at 10 :00 a.m. a meeting of the House .

I cannot at this particular time indicate to honourable memb ers the hour of adjournment so far as the evenings are concerned, but again I say that, as I indicated on the presentation of the motion of so-called speed-up, I trust that I will be tolerant. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris . MR . JORGENSON: Mr . Speaker, I should like to ask the House Leader is it the intention then of the government to proceed with the speed -up motion before concurrence is sought in the Estimates? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR . PAULLEY: I would say, Mr .

Speaker, the answer to that is in the hands of the Government after we have completed Estimate s. I would be pleased to meet with the Honour able the House Leader of the official Opposition on this so that he is knowledgeable of the , as much as humanly possible on my part and his as well , so that he 's knowledgeable of what we intend to do . I cannot give any firm guarantee at this particular moment . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr .

Speaker, I am cognizant of the difficulty that the House Leader has in getting the co- operation of the Members of Cabinet in pres enting the busine ss before the House but I want to know, I think the House has a right to know whether or not following corn pletion of the 90 hours on the Estimates will we be moving into Concurrence immediately or what will be the order of busine ss . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR . PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated in my last rema rks , I'm not at this par ticular moment able to answer fully the question asked by the Honourable the House Leader of the Conservative Party but I undertake to converse with him as to procedure s. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris . MR . JORGENSON : That's about the most precise explanation that we 've received yet as to the order of government busine ss and I thank the House Leader . MR . SPEAKER : The hour of adjournment . The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR. PAULLEY: I call it 5: 30 even though it's 4: 30 . MR .

SPEAKER: The hour of adjournment having been agreed upon the House is accord ingly adjourned and stands adjourned until 2: 30 Monday afternoon.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-4-120
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 4th hansardpdf 120.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	35e0e0912f6280b94a828f41fdba328bc381fed0

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