Manitoba Hansard — 18 March 1977 (Sitting 22A, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-22a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 FOURTH SESSION - THIRTIETH LEGISLATURE of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS vol. XXIV No. 22A 26 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Peter Fox Speaker 10:00 a.m., Friday, March 18, 1977 Printed by P.N. Crosbie - Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirtieth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, A. R. (Pete) AXWORTHY, Lloyd BANMAN, Bob BARROW, Thomas BIL TON, James H. BLAKE, David BOSTROM, Hon. Harvey BOYCE, Hon. J. R. (Bud) BROWN, Arnold BUR TNIAK, Hon. Peter CHERN IACK, Saul, Q.C, CRAIK, Donald W. DEREWI ANCHUK , Steve DESJAR DI NS, Hon. Laurent L. DIL LEN, Ken DOERN , Hon. Russell EINARSON, Henry J. ENNS, Harry J. EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. FERGUSON , James R. FOX, Hon. Peter GOTTFRI ED, John C. GRAHAM, Harry E. GREEN, Hon. Sidney, Q.C. HANUSCHAK, Hon.

Ben HENDERSON, George JENKI NS, William JOHANNSON, Wally JOHNSTON, J. Frank JOHNSTON, Gordon E. JORGEN SON, Warner H. LYON, Sterling R., Q.C. MALINO WSKI, Rev. Donald McBRYDE, Hon. Ronald McGI LL, Edward McGREGOR , Morris McKENZIE, J. Wally MIL LER, Hon. Saul A. MI NAKER, George MOUG, Arthur OSLAND, Les PATR ICK, Steve PAULL EY, Hon. Russell PAWLEY, Hon. Howard PETURSSON, Philip M. SCHREYER , Hon. Edward SHAFRANSKY, Harry SHERMA N, L. R. (Bud) SPIVAK, Sidney, Q.C. STEEN, Warren TOUPIN , Hon. Rene TURNBU LL, Hon. Ian UR USKI, Hon. Billie USKI W, Hon. Samuel WALDING , D. James WATT, J. Douglas WILSON, Robert G.

El ectoral Division Ste. Rose Fort Rouge LaVerendrye Flin Flon Swan River Minnedosa Rupertsla nd Winnipeg Centre Rhineland Da uphin St. Johns Riel Emerson St. Boniface Thompson El mwood Rock Lake Lakeside Brandon East Gladstone Kild onan Gimli Birtle-Russ ell lnkster Bu rrows Pembina Logan St. Matthews Sturgeon Creek Portage la Prairie Morris Souris- Kill arney Point Dougla s The Pas Brandon West Virden Roblin Seven-Oaks St. James Cha rleswood Chur chill Assiniboia Transcona Selkirk Wel lington Rossmere Radisson Fort Garry River Heights Crescentwood Springfield Osborne St. George Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Arth ur Wolseley Political Affil iation NDP Lib P.C . NDP P.C. P.C. NDP NDP P.C. NDP NDP P.C. NDP NDP NDP NDP P.C. P.C. NDP P.C. NDP NDP P.C. NDP NDP P.C. NDP NDP P.C. Lib P.C. P.C. NDP NDP P.C. P.C. P.C. NDP P.C. P.C. NDP Lib NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP P.C. P.C. P.C. NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP P.C. P.C.

TIME: 10:00 a.m. OPEN ING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Honourable Peter Fox (Kildonan) : Before we proceed, I shou ld like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gall ery whe re we have 30 students, Grade 10 standing, of the St. Joh n's Cathedral Boys School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Stephen Duddy. This schoo l is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Selkirk , the Honourable Attorney-General. We also have 53 students, Grade 11 standing, of the Tuxedo Sh aftsb ury School under the direction of Mr. Perrett and Mrs. Goodman.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Memb er for Charle swood. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this morning. We also have another schoo l of 12 students of Grade 11 standing of the Warren Collegia te under the direction of Mr. Bal iant. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Lakeside. We als o welcome you. Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Stand ing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements; Tabl ing of Reports; Notices of Motion; Introduc tion of Bill s. ORAL QUES TIONS MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question this morning to the Honourable the First Minister. Some time ago, he indicated that he was prepared to have his government break trad itions from time to time. My question to him, Sir, is: Is he prepared to advise his ministers to break one of the trad itions of thei r own making, namely to have introduced into this House for consideration, possibly the two most important bills we'll be deal ing with, early in the sess ion rather than as has been the ir trad ition, in the last week of the session.

I refer to the Land Bill of the Minister of Agricultur e and the Family Law Bill of the Atto rney-General. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HONOURABLE EDWARD SCHRE YER, Premier (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member for Lakeside is right on. Those are two important bills; they should be brought forward just as soon as possible. Indeed twice in the past, earl ier this week, I've had discussion with col leagues and I bel ieve that th e Land Bill will be brough t forward next week. -(I nterjection)- Wel l, al ready we're ru nning into proble ms. Wit hin the next two weeks. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourab le Member for Wo lseley. MR. ROBERT G. WIL SON: I have a question for the Minister of Labour. Wo ul d the Minister now advise the House the salar y of the NO P lawyer, Mr. MacKay, regard ing the commission and assure the Hous e that Mr.MacKay is not getting 2 % times the lowest salary of his other workers in his Labour Department? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HONOURABLE RUSSELL PAULLEY (Transcona) : Mr. Speaker, first of all in answer to my honourab le friend, I don't differentiate between NO P lawyers and lawyers of the Liberal Party or the Conservative Party.

If I th ink they have expertise in certain fields, I use them If my honourable friend was a lawyer, I might even use him. However, Mr. Speaker, I want to assure my honourable friend that the Industrial Inquiry Commissioner, namely Murdoch MacKay, is not on salary. I have not received any request for payment of any per diem or otherwise thus far. MR. WIL SON: I have a su pplementary. Wou ld the Minister advise the Hous e if Mr. MacKay woul d qual ify for the same type of pension as David Cass-Beggs? MR. SPEAKER: Hypothetical. The Honourable First Minister have a point of privilege? MR.

SCHREYER: No, just an answer to my honourable friend, to assure my honourable friend that whatever the amount, it will be less than that paid to Dal ton Camp, Esq., by th is province. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris have a point of order? MR. WAR NER H. JORGENSON: Sir, you decl ared that the question that was asked by the Member for Wolseley to be hypothetical and therefore, out of order and if it was out of order, then nobody responds to it either. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY; Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Finance.

In respect to the announcement of the grant of $400,000 to cover the deficit of the Convention Centre, could he indicate exactly what that deficit is expected to be and can he indicate if the province has a perpetual agreement to cost-share that deficit or whether it has a terminal point in it? MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. 873 THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Friday, March 18, 1977

Friday, March 18, 1977 HONOURABLE SAUL A. MILLER (Seven Oaks) : We ll, Mr. Speaker, ther e is an agreement with the City of Winnipeg to cost-share in the approved operating expenses and ther efore in the deficit if one develops. MR. AXWORTHY: We ll, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister if he could indicate as I asked originally what that total deficit was for this year and what the projections are for next year? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I have to depend on memory. It's someth ing like four hundred-and someth ing thousand dollar s for this year, the deficit, and that will be the Manitoba Government's portion.

It's a similar amount for next year I bel ieve; it may be somewhat less. MR. AXWORTHY: A supp lementary, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister indicate whether the Provincial Government has requested of the Board of the Convention Centre to undertake steps to reduce that deficit substan tiall y or to add more commercial space in the Convention Centre to try to offset those very large deficits? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, as the member probably knows, there's a Board of the Convention Centre. I know that they would very much like to be in a profit position and not have a deficit at all .

They're aiming for that and I hope they achieve that goal as qu ickly as possible so that the province wou ld not have to participate in an operating deficit ju st as the City Council would jus t as soon not have to pay towards any operating deficit. I'm sur e they're trying to do what they can to achieve that goal. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I direct the question to the Minister of Public Works in his capacity of being in charge of the Central Provincial Garage, and I wou ld ask the Minister if he cou ld confirm that the government is paying 16 to cents a mile employees that use the ir own vehic les on government busi ness and that, in turn, the government is charging 12 cents a mile to employees who are using government cars for their own personal use? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Minister for Publi c Works. HONOURABLE RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I'll check those detai ls and report back. MR. BANMAN: A further question, Mr.

Speaker, to the same Minister. I wonder if he cou ld inform the House whether the new restrictions imposed on people that are driving government cars also appl ies to members of the Cab inet, to their executive assistants and to the Leg islative assistants? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY; Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister responsible for Manitoba Housing. With the announcement that the CBC has taken possession of the old St.

Paul's site, can the Minister indicate whether any request has been made by MHRC to consider whether housing accommodation can also be included as part of the mixed use of that particular site and has he made any overtures or gestures to the CBC in that regard? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYE R: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I could attempt to reply to that question.

As the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge may know, the CBC has, I th ink they will freely admit, that for many years they have been attempting to obtain approval by Federal Treasur y Board for the necesssary capital author ity to proceed with the construction of facil ities in Winnipeg that would be commensurate with what one would expect of the CBC in a city of this size.

They have finally got that kind of Treasury Board approval and it was frankly hoped that before they made an irreversible commitment to a particu lar site, that all effort would be made to canvass the possibil ity of the CBC buil ding its new facil ity somewhere in the area east of Main Street and between that and the Red River. There are many arguments which CBC senior people agreed were rational arguments for attempting to locate at a site in that general area, in sort of general proximity to the Concert Hal l.

However, a detailed effort having been made, it was impossible, or nigh on to impossible, to marshal the necessary amount of land which in the case of the CBCs requirements, we're advised is five acres which is su bstantial and accord ingly, the investigation or canvass having been made, the CBC has reverted to its somewhat earl ier tentative decision, to locate at the old St. Pau l's Col lege site. Speaking personally, I can only say that it is a second best but certainly acceptable second choice and that with respect to the possibil ity of residential component included therein, that has not been ruled out.

But the CBC has repeated that they do require su bstantial acreage, five acres, and they have that at the St. Pau l's Col lege site with very little to spare. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I thank the First Minister for that statem ent.

I wou ld ask him though if the government itself has made any efforts to assess the potential of making use of that site for additio nal housing units considering that the technology of mixed used or multiple use of sites is not reall y available and whether the government would undertake to at least make that request of CBC .that a joint-use of study or examination of the feasibili ty be undertaken? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, there is no reason whatsoever why my col leag ue cannot attempt to take that concept further with the CBC. I perhaps should n't express any negative attitude in advance 874

Friday, March 18, 1977 because I would th ink the proposal has merit if the CBC feels that they have sufficient space there to al low for the integration of residential component into it. If my col leag ue can get a positive attitude from them, then I should th ink we woul d want to proceed . MR. AXWORTHY: Jus t a final supple mentary, Mr. Speaker. Again, I think that it obviously has to be examined but I wonder if the government would also be prepared to take up the issue say with Federal housing officials at the same time to see aga in if their co-operation cou ld be gained in this particular examination? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. HONOURABLE LEONARD S. EVANS (Brandon East) : Yes, Mr. Speaker. We have very good relations with the local officials engaged in federal hou sing programs, namely Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and I can advise the Honourable Member that the staff meets on a regul ar basis with CMHC and we are forever looking at possibl e combinations commercial, residential, we're forever looking at new sites for developme nt, particu larly in the old City of Winnipeg . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct this one to the Acting Minister of Tourism and Recreation. When does the government intend meeting with the Harness Horsemen's Association regard ing this year and futur e years programming including consideration of extended race meets at Carman or Portage or indeed , if feasible , a half -mile track in Winnipeg? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I listened yesterday to the gr ievance of the Member for Virden and discussed it with members of the department and they informed me that the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission which is responsible for dealing with the horsemen and the Horsemen's Association, does in fact have a meeting planned for this Sunday and it's hoped that at that meeting they will resolve some of these questions and make their decision on the forthco ming season. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. KEN DIL LEN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister or the Attorney-General.

I wou ld like to ask how many times must a st rikebreaker cross a picket line before he becomes proficient enough to be regarded as a professional? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, that is highl y judgme ntal, I sup pose. I should th ink about as many times as a person can go back and forth thr ough the eye of an needle. MR. DI LLEN: We ll, is it not a fact then that the pol ice are being used as professional st rikebreakers? MR. SPEAKER: Asking for an opinion. Does the Honourable Member for Thompson wish to rephrase? MR. DI LLEN: I wou ld like to know, Mr.

Speaker, from the First Minister, if the situa tion were reversed ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. That's hypothe tical . The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. WARREN STEEN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister responsible for the Public Insu rance Corporation. Could the Minister inform the House whether or not it is true that Autopac has made several serious errors in assess ing insurance premiums this year and, if so, cou ld he inform the Hous e as to when Manitobans can expect a refund? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HONOURABLE PETER BUR TNIAK (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, I'm sorry, I didn't gett he question at al l. MR. STEEN: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister was: Is it true that Autopac has made several serious errors in assess ing insurance premiums this year and if it is so, cou ld he inform the House as to when Manitobans can expect a refund? MR. BUR TNIAK: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of the errors that the honourable member is referring to. I perhaps should take this question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, the other day the Honourable Member for Riel had asked for information with respect to the fl ows at Missi Falls and at Chur chill I bel ieve and I can inform my honourable friend that as of last week, data indicates tha t the flows thr ough at Missi Falls are I believe 22,000 cubic feet per second and at Chur chill, in the order of 30,000. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. . MR . DONALD W. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, first of all, I thank the Minister for providing the information.

I wonder if he can also confirm that the 22, 000 flow that's being effect ively lost rather than being diverted into the Nel son counts for the amount of electricity which exceeds substantially ·the energy equ ivalent of the total purchases of coal in the last 12 months? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I wou ld agree that it is significant, certainly I wou ld have to agree 875

Friday, March 18, 1977 that that is so. I wou ld not agree, however, that it exceeds the amount of energy being produced by coal thermal generation. I might add to my honourable friend that even though I readily agree with him, agreement in th is context isn't very product ive. My honourab le friend knows that we still have serious legal problems involving the Federal Departm ent of Indian-Affairs. MR. CRAIK: We ll, Mr. Speaker, to bring the question into focus, I would like the First Minister to see if he can confirm, based on Mr.

Bateman's stat ement the other day, that the energy equivalent of the coal burned was some thirteen hu ndred and fifty mil lion kilowatt hours and that the energy equivalent of 20,000 c.f.s. of water out of the Church ill diversion is equal to some sixteen hundred million kilowatt hours which is in excess of the total coal consumption in the last twelve months? MR. SCHREYE R: Mr. Speaker, if we had enough time I wou ldn't mind running some calcu lations and my honourable friend cou ld do the same.

We cou ld compare notes but I wou ld put it this way, Sir, that the 20,000 - and thr ough Kettle it would be only thr ough Kettle, obviously it doesn't involve Kelsey - wou ld not be equivalent to the energy generated by coal thermal generation for any given unit of time. MR. CRAIK: A final question to the First Minister. I wonder if he wou ld be good enough to check that last claim because that's what my statement is based on. TABLING OF REPO RTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HONOURABLE HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, with leave of the House, I wou ld like to file the 53rd Annual Report of the Liquor Control Commission. NO N-POL ITICAL STATEME NT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agricu ltu re. HONOURABLE SAMUEL USKI W (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I am wondering whethe r members wou ld want to also give me leave to make an announcement of a non-political nature. This is a recent press release to be issued after this announcement this morning by the University of Manitoba.

"A new variety of rapeseed developed at the Department of Plant Science, University of Manitoba, has been licensed by the Plant Products Division, Agr icult ure Canada. The variety is known as Regent and was produced by Dr. B.R . Stefa nsson, with majDr financial support from the Manitoba Department of Agricu lt ure. Regent is a high yielding variety which combines high oi I and protein content of the seed with low erucic acid content in the oil and low gl ucosinolate content of the meal. In three years of testing across Canada, Regent yielde d highe r than the variety Tower and equal to the variety Midas.

The oil content of Regent is high er than Tower and alm ost equal to Midas. Protein content of the oil-free meal is equal to Tower and exceeds Midas by approximately tour percent making the combination of oil and protein for Regent better than the combination for any other Canadian variety of rape. Erucic acid content of Regent is similar to the varieties Tower and Midas, whil e gl ucosinolate content of the oil-free meal is slightly hig her than tha t for Tower but much lower than the value for Midas. Maturity of Regent is similar to Tower and Midas and sl ightly earlier than Target.

Regent is the second Canadian variety of rapeseed which comb ines acceptable yields with high qual ity (low erucic acid, low gl ucosinolates, high protein and oil content). The first such variety, Tower, released in 19 74 was also produced by Dr. Stefansson. In 19 77, Tower occupied 24 percent of the Canadian rapeseed acreage. The deve lopment of the variety Regent is expected to facilitate the elimination of low qual ity rape varieties and thus increase the production of low gl ucosinolate rapeseed in Canada, . and improve returns to producers, crushers and exporters.

Seed of the new variety will be distributed on a limited basis to select seed growers in the spring of 1977 and should be available for commercial production in 19 78." For the benefit of members of the House, Mr. Speaker, I think this is a good point to remind us all that the research dol lars that are contributed by the Department of Agricu lture are doing well for the people of Manitoba and Canada. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Although the Minister said it was an announcement, in reality it was a statement.

I would hope in the future you would have copies according to our procedures because he did ask for permission. I al lowed him to proceed but real ly he shou ld have had copies for all the House as the procedure cal ls for. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. On the stat ement or ona question? MR. STERLING R. LYON (Souris-Killarney): On the statement, Mr. Speaker. I'm sure we would all on this side of the House wish to join with the Minister of Agricu lture in congratu lating Dr. Stefansson 876

Friday, March 18, 1977 and his col leagues for the manifestation of thei r many long years of work and research in the produc tion of this new strain and new qualit y of rapeseed which will be of tremendous benefit to the agricu ltur al community of Manitoba. Representing as I do a constituency which has a large agricu ltu ral component, I am sur e tha t with my col leagues on this side of the Hous e, representing as we do most of productive agricu ltural Manitoba, we share the joy in the announcement that the Honourable the Minister has made this morning. There was, I must say, Mr.

Speaker, some question as to what announcement the Minister was going to make concerning agricultur e this morning. We hope tha t when he has any fu rther announcements with respect to matters that will be deve loping during the cou rse of the day having equal ramifications on the future of one branch of agricu ltu re, that he will be able to del iver the announcement with the same panache and the same joy as he has with respect to the new variety of rapeseed. May I assure him, Mr.

Speaker, that we woul d be happy on this side of the House to accord him leave at any time dur ing the sitting of the Hous e today if he ha s any special announcement he would like to make fu rther to the better development of the greatest industry in Manitoba, namely agricu ltur e. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage La Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I pose a question to the Honourable the Minister of Ag riculture.

Was - and it is an important announcement, ther e's no question about it of the great progress that has been made in the research field in agricultu re - but did the Minister make the announcement today with the hopes that somehow he cou ld obscure or push bac k into the back pages a further announcement that he may have to make before the weekend? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agricu lture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, the facts are that yesterday I received a memo from the University asking that I make that announcement but it was too late for the opening of the Hous e yesterday.

ORDERS OF THE DAY - ORDERS FOR RETU RN MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock . Lake on behalf of the Honourable Member for Brandon West. ORDER NO. 37. MR. HENRY J. EIN ARSON: Yes, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Member for Brandon West, I wish to move, seconded by th e Member for Morris, THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the foll owing statistics colle cted by the Department of Education with regard to Grade XII June final standings of high school students in Manitoba. 1 (

a) The total number of student marks by individual 300 level su bjects for the years 1973, 1974, 19 75 and 1976. (

b) The percentage rate of students with pass ing marks by individual 300 level su bjects for the years 1973, 1974, 1975 and 1976. 2(

a) The total number of student marks by individual 301 level su bjects for the years 1973, 1974, 1975 and 1976. (

b) The percentage rate of students with passing marks by individual 30l level su bjects for the years 1973, 1974, 1975 and 1976. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Edu cation. HONOURABLE IAN TURNBULL (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, to the Member for Rock Lake, this Order for Return is acceptable to the extent that the department can provide the information. MOTION presented and carried. BUSINE SS OF THE HOUSE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Acting House Leader. MR. PAULL EY: Mr. Speaker, normally in accordance with the Order Paper, I would be moving Committee of Supp ly.

The Honourable the Minister of Finance has asked whether or not there woul d be agreement for procedu res to start in respect of Interim Supply and if that's agreeable, then I would call, Mr. Speaker, on my col leag ue to start the process - it's rather compl icated in some respects. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, we have no objection to the initial processes of the procedure involving Interim Supply proceeding at this time.

If the Minister wants to introduce the resolu tion and the first reading of the bill, that's fine but I think we woul dn't want to go beyond that point. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAU LLEY: We do have to go into Committee of Supply but rather than going into Committee of Supply and breaking up into the two committees considering the Estimates, that we would all stay here for a few moments for the Minister to introduce in Committee of Suppl y. So ther efore, Mr. 877

Friday, March 18, 1977 Speaker, I wou Id beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Finance, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair for the purpose of the introduction of prel iminaries of Interim Supp ly- I don't know exactly the Motion, but that's the intent. MR. SPEAKER: We ll, if the Minister of Labour will tell me what Motion he is making, is it to go into Supply and who is . . . ? MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker. I made a motion, moved by myself, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Finance that th e Hous e resolve itself into a Committee of Suppl y.

MOTION presented and carried and the Hous e resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair . COMM ITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. William Jenkins (Logan): Is it the will of the committee to proceed with the Resolution? Resolved that a sum not exceeding $275,737,800 being 25 percent of the several items being to be voted for Department as set forth in the Main Estimates for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March 1977 laid before the House at the present session of the Legislature be granted to Her Majesty for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March 1978.

The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, this is the annual Resolution dealing with Interim Supply which is the granting or trying to get approved 25 percent, which is the same as last year and I believe in other years - 25 percent of the total Estimates. This is necessary because no cheques can be issued after March 31st-April 1st as I am informed, so this is an Interim Supply simply to make it possible for the normal cheques to be made available for funds for staff both in government and in agencies as well as grants to agencies so they may continue to operate in a normal way.

To my understanding, the funds so approved would carry the business of government on to some time in early July. With those few comments, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that this be passed and after we go into Committee of Ways and Means and the bill is distributed of course members at that time certainly can speak if they so wish and the matter can then be looked at. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR . CRAIK: A couple of questions at this point, Mr. Chairman.

One is the figure that is being used, $275 million, I understand that the tradition has been that the amount is 25 percent and 25 percent of the Estimates tabled this year would be 25 percent of $1,153,693,900 which would be something closer, I would think to $250 million rather than $275 million. The question is: what is the $275 million based on because the Minister did table with his Estimates a sheet that subtracted off the tax credits out of the overall Estimates Supply and to be continuous with that, I would think he would take whatever it is, 25 percent of the result.

The other question that we would ask at this point is that within two or three days of tabling his Estimates of expenditure indicating an increase of provincial expenditure of the order of 7.52 percent which he has indicated also on this extra sheet, that the Minister of Education announced increased grants and increased amounts of money in his Estimates which would appear to net out somewhere around $23 million which would add to the Estimates another approximately two percent bringing the total up to 9.5 odd percent.

I want to then ask the Minister why Estimates would be tabled on a Tuesday by the Minister of Finance indicating one level of expenditure and changes in those Estimates announced on a Thursday of the same week by the Minister of Education two days later, indicating that the Estimates that were tabled on Tuesday were out by as much as two percent - $23 million? MR. CHAIRMAN: -.- - The Honourable Minster of Finance. MR. MILLER: Mr.

Chairman, insofar as the latter part of the question is concerned, the fact is that the Estimates as the honourable member knows are pretty well gone through and finalized and sent to the printers a few weeks before I have an opportunity to table them in the House. I think the Minister of Education did indicate that he was not ready to come up with the final figures with regard to the requirements in Education until after he had a better understanding of the size and the amounts of the budgets that were coming in from the school boards.

So that explains why there was not that kind of information in the first Estimates tabled. He did indicate that some of the differences between the printed Estimates' figures and what he announced was as a result of two factors. One was the result of a switch from current to capital; the other would be an amount that was going to appear 878

Friday, March 18, 1977 in the Suppl ementary Supply and that wi ll sti ll appear. I am not deal ing with Supp lementary Supply; I am not ready to table that in the House at the present time. What we're basically dealing with is the Interim Su pply. The member does raise a que stion about the fact that if this is 25 percent, why doesn't the arithmetic indicate that? I can't frankly give him an immediate answer on that, I'll have to check, but of cou rse this can be done and I can have that information and explanation because I am sure ther e is one.

As I say, the bill is identical to last year with the except ion some figur es have been changed, and when we're dealing with this in second reading I'm sur e I'll have an answer for him at that time. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it the will of the Committee to adopt the Resolu tion? MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chair man, I think now that the committees woul d go into their respective quarters to consider of the general Estimates on Supply. There are some differences of opinion as to whether that is proper or not; however, that is what we will be doing.

I do want to indicate to Members of the House that it is my understanding that the roll cal l for consideration of Estimates at the conclu sion of the Estimates of the Department of Healt h , the Department of Labour will be considered in the House and Co-op Development will foll ow Lab our in the Hous e, and that in Room 254 we are now dealing with Renewable Resources, foll owing wh ich will be Municipal Affairs. So with those remarks, Mr. Chai rman, I would ask Members to go if they are in 254; if they're here, stay here. 879

Friday, March 18, 1977 CONCU RRENT COMMI TTEES OF SUPPLY ESTIMATES - RENE WABLE RESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. D. James Walding (St. Vital) : We have a quor um gentlemen. The committee will come to order. Wo ul d refer honourable members to Page 54 in their Estimates Book, the Department of Renewable Resources and Transportation Services. The Minister informs me that he has the information on the particular

section that we by-passed last night. We will then go back to Resolut ion 10 4(b)(5) (

b) Oth er Exp enditures. The Honourable Minister. HONOURABLE HARVEY BOSTROM( Rupertsland ) : Mr. Chairman, as I understand it, the questions that were posed related to the number of staff man years and the kind of positions that are located in th is particu lar appropriation. There are 20.26 staff man years as I reported last nigh t.

The breakdown of those is as fo ll ows: there is one Administrative Officer requested; one Administrative Secretary requested in the 19 77-78 Estimates; one Biolo gist; one Cl erk Typist; two Drafting Technicians; one Resource Technician, - I'm sorry, seven Resou rce Technicians altogether; one Technical Engineering Officer and .26 SMY in sum mer student appropriation, tor a total of 20.26 SMY. The question was als o asked what, if any, contract staff were in this area. There are th ree Resou rce Technicians; one Computer Programmer I; one Engineering Aid II and oneAg rolog ist ll A. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member tor Minnedosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE: Yes, Mr. Chair man. I wonder if the Minister might jus t give us some idea of what function the Resou rce Technicians perform? MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BOSTROM: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, the detailed description of the job du ties is someth ing I do not have at my fingertips. I will take that question as notice and table that information when we next sit. MR. BLAKE: He can give me jus t a rough idea of what fu nction they might perform, Mr. Chairman. Sur ely someone would know what they're doing.

Are they ju st involved with compiling the studies that are under way or ... ? MR. BOSTROM: We ll, Mr. Chair man, the Assistant Deput y Minister in ch arge of th is

section is indicating that these people general ly are the field technical staff who woul d be gathering the information tor the perusal and decision-making on the part of the professionals. They would be the front line troops gathering the relevant data, the technical kind of data. They wou ld have that kind of competence and the ab ility to co mpile the data for further analysis. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: They woul d be non-professional people for the most part. MR.

BOSTR OM: Resource Technicians would not have as much training as the land planners as such but they wou ld need to have the necessary skills for the gath ering of the data in this case. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: Mr. Chai rman, I thank the Minister tor his breakdown of staff. There was a thir d category, that is it cou ld be possibly a thir d category of employee, in the other staff, other than Civil Service or contract, who are included under this vote but do not go thr ough the Civil Service Commission. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BOSTROM: We ll, Mr.

Chair man, I have outl ined all of the staff in my comments jus t now that are connected with that particular appr opriation. MR. LYON: So that's the tota lity of it and of that group that you mentioned, of the first group, you mentioned there were three, I bel ieve, who were contract employees? MR. BOSTR OM: Mr. Chairman, I'll go over the list agai n. These are the contract staff employed under sharable agreements as of March 18, 19 77. In this particular appropriation ther e are three Resou rce Technicians I; there is one Computer Program mer I; one Engineering Aid II; one Agrolog ist ll A, for a total of six.

MR. LYON: There are no other staff at all involved in this vote. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chair man, that is the tota l. MR. LYON: The contract employees are not processed in the usual way through the Civil Service Commission. MR. BOSTROM: No, Mr. Chair man. MR. LYON: Wel l, thank you tor that information, Mr. Chairman. I presume that the Minister will be giving us, as requested last night, a breakdown on a sheet of paper of all staff tor all the votes - I didn't expect him to have it last night nor today - before we get to the end of his Estimates. MR. BOSTROM: Yes.

I have, in fact, that information here in a detailed sheet which I'm passing on to the Honourable Member for Minnedosa for the information of your caucus. MR. LYON: I think it might be advisable ... there used to be a practice whereby 57 copies of it were 880

Friday, March 18, 1977 turned out so all members woul d have it. MR. BOSTROM: We ll, Mr. Chai rman, I su ppose tha t cou ld be put together. MR. LYON: Yes, thank you. If you could do that, Mr. Minister, that wou ld be help fu l. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolut ion 10 4(b) {5) (b)-pass? The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: On (5) (

b) generally and if ther e has been discus sion on this, I can read it in Hansard. The Minister can answer yes or no. Has he had an opportu nity under this vote or previously to explain in general terms the import of the agreement that was sig ned between the Government of Manitoba and the Government of Canada, at Norway House I be lieve it was, in the latter months of 19 76? MR. BOSTROM; Mr. Chairman, that question would more properly be put to the Minister of Northern Affairs who is responsible for that particular agreement. MR.

LYON: That has no appl ication to your department at al l, or to the Minister's department, Mr. Chai rman? MR. BOSTR OM: Mr. Chair man, it only has application to this department as it relates to the particu lar appropriations that are cost-shared in th is department. The Minister of Northern Affairs is responsible for negotiating the agreement, signing the agreement. The items that are in my Estimates before you today are items that are incl ude d in that agreement but the inclusion of them are a matter of negotiation between the senior staff of my department and the senior staff of Northern Affairs.

The final agreement, however, is sig ned by the Honourable Minister for Northern Affairs. MR. LYON: Mr. Chair man, such as the item that we are now discus sing, Canada-Manitoba North lands Agreement, those moneys wou Id be part and parcel of that arrangement that was signed last year at Norway House? MR. BOSTROM: The agreement which was sig ned at Norway Hous e, Mr. Chairman, was the Manitoba North lands Agreement, which inclu ded all of the items that are include d in many different departments, related to the various projects and programs with in that agreement.

However, the agreement itself and the nature of the agreement is the responsibil ity of the Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs and the question would most properly be put to him. MR. LYON: Mr. Chair man, insofar as the agreement affects the Minister's Est imates, I presume he has no hesitation about talking about it and tel ling us the implications of it vis-a-vis his own department? MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chai rman, as I've indicated, the questions of the overall agreement are best put to the Minister of Northern Affairs.

I can discuss the items that are before us as they relate to my department, but I'm not familiar with all of the items with in the agreement. MR. LYON: I th ink we would welcome, Mr. Chairman, a discus sion by the Minister of that agreement insofar as it affects his department and what he sees in the future, what kind of shar ed cost agreements he can see in these present Estimates and for what term in the future and what are the implications of that agreement, vis-a-vis his department? I'm not asking him for a rundown of the overall ag reement, ju st th e impact of it on his department. MR. BOSTROM: Wel l, Mr.

Chairman, that question was put to me the first day of my Estimates by the Honourable Member for Lakeside and I did expl ain the impact of the agreement on my department; how much money in total was involv ed and how that related percentage-wise and in terms of its impact on my department and that expla nation is in Hansard for the honourable member to read. MR. LYON: I'll be happy to look it up, Mr. Chai rman.

I know the Minister has had rather fruitl ess negotiations - I'm tal king under this item because it relates to the North lands Agreement generally - fru itless negotiations with the Federal Government with respect to the ir participation in a transportat ion subsidy for northern fish. Do you hold any hope that the Federal Government will reverse themself in this stand or is his department still maintaining that it will provide a quarter of a mill ion doll ars, I be lieve it is, for that purpose, or wha t is the actual status as we sit here today? MR. BOSTR OM: We ll, Mr.

Chair man, the question would properly be put under the Fisheries Management section. However, I can indicate brief ly at thi s time to the honourable member that the negotiations that we have had on an ongoing bas is with several government departments federal ly, including the department that is related to North lands, that is the Department of Regional Economic Expansion, these negotiations have been largely fruitless and that we have not had any agreement from any of these government departments to assist in the area of fish transportation subsidy.

We are continuing those negotations, however, on an ongoing basis. Senior staff from my department are having discus sions with the Department of Indian Affairs at the present time with a view of attempting to have them supplement the transportation subsidy which is provided by the Province of Manitoba, in order to better suppor t the fishery in the north . I am informed that we have made available to them , for example, statistics from our experience over the last year with the transportation sub sidy.

That is how it applied to the fishermen, how may fishermen were treaty Indians, how may treaty Indian fishermen received subsidy and how much they received, and using this information based on hard facts we are attempting to convince Indian Affairs that they shou ld, indeed, be involved in assis ting in the transportation of the fish from 881

Friday, March 18, 1977 northern Manitoba in order to provide the fishermen with an opportunity to work rather than be on social assistance or some other form of non-work activity. MR. LYON: Wel l, of course, Mr. Chair man, we wish the Minister well in his negotiations. Has he or his col leag ue, the Minister of Northern Affairs, not been able to impress upon the federal authorities that in an overall agreement wh ich encompasses -w ell the figur e escapes me, $105 million was it? - the umbrella agreement that was sig ned at Norway House. MR. BOSTROM: Wel l, Mr .

Chairman, the terms of the agreement, as I indicated, that was signed in Norway Hous e, the amounts and so on would best be add ressed to the Minister of Northern Affairs. I can relate exactly to the amounts that are in my Estimates but if the honourable member wishes me to gue ss at amou nts that are included in a short-term interim or long-term agreement, I don't wish to engage in that kind of discus sion. MR. LYON: Wel l, I'm searching for the figur e, myself, and I don't have the government's press release in front of me.

But the figur e that comes to mind, and I don't put it forward as an accu rate figure at all, it's only a recoll ected figur e, was the agreement was in the amount of something in excess of $100 million, unless I'm mistaken. But talking within those figur es of those parameters, has the Minister not found it possible to use that as a bargaining lever with the Federal Government in order to indicate that a quarter of a milli on doll ars to supp lement the Government of Manitoba's subsidy $250,000 wou ld not cut a terrible hole in that kind of a budget. I'm trying to help my honourable friend, Mr.

Chair man, not hinder him. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order' please. I'm sur e the honourable member would also wish to assist the Chair man who wou ld like to restrict discus sion of anything to do with fish ing or fisheries' management to the sect ion, when we reach it. MR. LYON: With respect, Mr. Chairman, I'll try to be of as much assistance to you as I can but we are ta lking about the North lands Agreement and one item that I'm sur e my honourable friend is negotiating, well he has admitted he is negotiating with the federal authorities, has to do with the fisheries' subsidy or transportation subsidy.

I am merely su gg esting to him that in an agreement of that scope, or of that size, that sur ely he should have a good bargaining lever vis-a-vis the transportation subsidy, negotiating under an umbrella agreement that encompasses several scores of milli ons of dol lars. I'm really asking for his opinion as to whether ... What has been the roadblock? What seems to be the ho ldup with the federal people when you're dealing with such huge sums of money? MR. BOSTROM: Wel l, Mr.

Chairman, the Federal Government in this case has to approve of the projects which are included with in the agreement and ther efore in th is case it is the ir perogative to decide whether or not they are going to cost-share with us to help finance a fishery program in northern Manitoba, and to date they have refused to do so although the representations have been made. The people of my department have been working thr ough the officals in Northern Affairs.

The Ministers concerned here have made representations directly, and yet to date the Department of Regional Economic Expansion has refused to enter into an ag reement regarding transportation of fish . MR. LYON: That's the same department that will pay mu lti-m illi on dollar sub sid ies to industries to establi�i1 in 8REE areas but will not assist your department with respect to transportation of a primary product in Manitoba. It's very strange, isn't it? MR. BOSTROM: Wel l, Mr.

Chairman, I can agree with the honourable member on that point that it is indeed strange and disappointing tha t we have not been able to obta in agreement on this matter. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agricu lture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the Leader of the Opposition makes a point, when one is tal king in terms of negotiations with the Government of Canada on any cost-shared program.

I think what point is missed here is the fact that OREE does not normally enter into agreements, development agreements, wherein they participate in continuing subsidized programs of an ongoing nature, that the agreements are usuall y that of developmental projects which, after a certain period of time, have to carry on on their own. The que st ion that we have before us is the question of picking up transportation costs for fish . That properly belongs under the ju risdiction of the Department of Fishe ries.

So I don't th ink one can make much of the fact that with in the OREE Agreement, which is an economic development th rust for development of new job opportu nities, that that is where that sh oul d come from. I think it's almo st unfair to criticize the department for not being able to get that from OREE. But I th ink it's certainly fair to criticize the Fish eries Department of Canada for not shari ng in the cost of transportation of fish from the north. MR. LYON: We ll, Mr. Chair man, I'm sure that the Minister of: Agricultur e understands that I am not criticizing the Minister of Resou rces here.

I share with him the concern that the federal authorities can be so blind as to a need of a primary industry in Manitoba and can engage, as they do, in other broad hand-out programs for the establis hment of industry, in the case of jobs. I'm sure that I'm not saying anything that the Minister and his staff are not full y aware of when they indicate that, accord ing to figur es that I saw recently, the poundage of fish taken in northern Manitoba is only 882

Friday, March 18, 1977 about half of what it was ten years ago. The transportation is one of the problems that is bede villing that primary industry in the northern regions of Manitoba and notwithstanding the obvious work, and I'm sur e effort, that the Minister and his department have put into it, there seems to be a blank wall at Ottawa in terms of their understa nding of what is important, not only to the economy of Manitoba, but to job opportunities in this region of Manitoba. MR.

CHAIRM AN: Again I would ask honourab le members if they would defer their remarks on fish until we get to that particu lar section. MR. LYON: I'm deal ing with the North lands Agreement. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolut ion 10 4(b) (5) (b)-pass; (5)-p ass; Resol ution 10 4(b)- pass; Resolu tion 10 4(

c) Forestry Management:

(1) Program Dev elopment and Management (

a) Salaries and Wages. The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Yes, well we covered th is fairly fu lly last nigh t, Mr. Chair man. There are some points further down, under inventory and protection that have to be covered and I th ink that I can wait until we get ther e unless some of my oth er members of the committee have some further questions on (

a) and (b) . MR. CHAIRM AN: Resolut ion 10 4(c) {1 )( a) (Short recording failure he re.) and maybe the jackpine hydro poles as wel l. How much earnings do the department get from those two products? MR. BOSTR OM: Mr. Chair man, tha t's a detailed quest ion that I'll take as notice. If the officials here have the information I will give it at the end of this committee, if not I will bring it as soon as I can. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Member for Robl in. MR.

McKENZIE: The other question on the metric system which came up the other day, the department has had the mee tings and there was a sub-c ommittee formed, I belie ve, of people from the department regard ing the metric scal ing and apparently have prepared a draft of what we can expect in the near future. I wonder is that public information? MR. BOSTROM: Not to my knowledge, Mr. Chair man. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolu tion 10 4(c) (1 )( a) -pass; (1 )( b)

(1) Other Expenditures - pass; - pass. Resolut ion 10 4(c)

(2) Forest Inventory (

a) Salaries and Wages. The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I wondered on Inventory if the government were doing the ir inventory work on their own; are they doing it in conjunction with others, say Abitibi or if Abitibi are doing thei r own on Forest Inventory; do they share this information? He cou ld probably ju st cover these points for us. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, the inventory work in the Province of Manitoba is the responsibili ty of this department.

To my knowledge, none of the forest companies operating with in Manitoba do any forest inventory work which is of the nature that cou ld be used for the department or departmental purposes and forest management. It may be operational timber crews is done by Abitibi and other forest harvesters in Manitoba however, the detailed forest inventory is done by the department. MR. BLAKE: Is this information readily available to companies such as Abitibi or Roblin Forest Products? Do they have free access to the timber inventory? MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chai rman, the forest inventory information is public knowledge.

It's available to any citizen of Manitoba and it's used extensively by the companies who harvest the forests of Manitoba. MR. BLAKE: Yes, wh ile we're on inventory, my colle ague from Robl in mentioned hydro poles. I notice th ere is a comment in the Annual Report on tha t, I also wanted to get into fence posts.

In their inventory findings, what is the potential market for hydro poles, telephone poles and fence posts and if the Minister might give us some indication as to how far the fence post market has been developed, how many fence posts they have purcha sed from the various manufacturers of that product, if they have them in stock-pile or how many they've marketed? MR. BOSTROM: We ll, Mr.

Chai rman, with respect to hydro poles, my department has been working in co-operation with Manitoba Hyd ro who is a major user of poles with a view to having them purchase as much as possible of thei r requirements from operators with in Manitoba and by making information available to operators and as to the demand tha t is available from sou rces like Manitoba Hydro, we have been able to satisfy I bel ieve alm ost completely the demand for hydro poles of the particul ar nature that can be produced in Manitoba.

Over the last two years we've been able to virtually completely satisfy the hydro demand throu gh the encouragement of the local producers in Manitoba to produce the poles that are necessary. In the second part of his question, he indicates the interest in fence posts. Mr. Chairman, if I can ju st look at the historical record, fence post production has gone up from what it used to be, as far as the statistics show here in 19 66-67, where there were 274,000 cubic feet of material produced of the 883

Friday, March 18, 1977 fence post variety and in 19 75-76 this has been increased to 1, 1 00,000 cubic feet, an increase of at least fou r-fold since a decade earl ier. The only area in wh ich my department is directly involved in assisting fence post producers is in the community of Easterville where th ere's been a community operation establ ished to produce fence posts from the nearby forests with a view to improving employment opportu nities in that community.

In order to ensure them the opportu nity to continue producing thi s year when they were unable to find a local market for their fence posts, we undertook thr ough a program which is indirectly related to my department but my department made a subm ission to the Special Northern Employment Program Fund for moneys to purchase the inventory of fence posts from the Eastervill e operation, Our agreement was to purch ase about 15 0,000 posts I bel ieve and staff in the department are assisting this company to locate a market for those fence posts.

At the present time, we are hopeful and indeed have very positive indications that there is a fence post market tha t can be tapped immediately south of the border. We have at least interim ind ications that there is a market immediately for something in the neighborhood of 40,000 fence posts. MR. BLAKE: Are these treated fence posts? Is there a complete finishing operation at Eastervill e? How many other native co-operatives or whatever involv ed in the industry are producing fence posts, if any? MR. BOSTROM: We ll, Mr.

Chairman, this is the only community-based fence post operation that I'm aware of and they do not comple te the fence posts completely; they have a cutting, sharpening, peel ing operation and they prod uce a raw post ready for treatment. The treatment in this case is being done by the Prendvill e operation at Neepawa, I bel ieve, and they are channelled through there, treated and then sh ipped on to market where we have obta ined markets for them. MR.

BLAKE: Would the Prendville operation be the marketing agent for the Easter vill e firm or they just treat the post at a per post cost and they are paid for the actual work that they do? MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chair man, in this case, since we have undertaken to purchase the posts from Eastervil le, guar antee the purchase of their posts, we are, in effect, the marketing agent for those posts, in fact we are, in a sense the marketer, because we have taken possess ion of the posts as they are produced; we are making the necessary agreement with Prendvill e to treat the posts in order that they can be in the proper stage for final sale. MR.

BLAKE: Could the Minister also indicate to us the cost for treating a post and what market price they hope to market the produc t at and will the profit be returned to the Easter vill e operation or will some of the profit be funnelled off into the treasury? MR. BOSTR OM: Mr.

Chairman, we have set up an account to deal with this operation in respect that we have made a commitment to produce or to purchase 10 0,000 posts and we have made arrangements thr ough the Department of Finance to set up a trust account or a revolving account where any funds that are obtained th rough the sale of the posts will go back into that account and the idea is that if ther e is a profit from the sale and hopefull y there will be, that that profit cou ld be used on an basis to purchase and finance the continued production in the Eastervill e operation. MR. BLAKE: Jus t a word on the hydro poles.

Are the hydro poles being produced by some of the native operations in the north or are they done by individual operators? Also are they prod uced on a contract basis or on what basis are they produced? MR. BOSTR OM: There are two communities on the east side tha t I am aware of that have produced some hydro poles. The poles generally are sold at an establis hed rate to Manitoba Hydro.

The department's role in here is to let the community operations know that th is market is available and to also give the com munity operations or independent operators, whatever it may be, a short cou rse in how to go about selec ting the right kinds of trees for hydro poles and the largest production, I suppose, for hydro poles has come from independent operators. At least two community operations have also produced hyd ro poles. MR. BLAKE: These hyd ro poles are also treated.

Are they treated on-site in most cases or are they treated elsewhere and is the price competitive with the price of hydro poles imported from say British Colum bia or some other area? MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chair man, I believe that the posts that are produ ced are mainly in the untreated variety unless the operator is able to make a deal thr ough a treatment pla nt, I bel ieve some of them used to use the old Dom-Tar plant here in Winnipeg, however, they'r e mainly sold in the untreated stage and Hydro looks after the treatment.

The price is, I would believe, competitive in that Hyd ro would not be paying any more than they woul d pay for posts to anybody els e del ivered from anywhere else in Canada. Our role as a department was to try to ensure that Hydro made every effort to buy from local producers rather than buying outside the province as Hydro is a corporation which would normally ju st buy from whoever was able to suppl y. They didn't reall y have a preference.

We have attempted to steer them to purchase from the producers within Manitoba and as I say, we have been successful over the last two years of virtually supplying all the hyd ro poles that can be supplied from Manitoba for Hydro pu rposes. MR. BLAKE: Yes, Mr. Chair man, a final quest ion whil e we're on Inventory. I wonder if the Minister 884

Friday, March 18, 1977 might give us ju st a little more detaile d view on the forestry inventory in the province: what are the forecasts for our forest industr y and I know when we get under Research, we'll be getting some more detailed work but if he cou ld just give us an over-view on the forestry inventory, just where it stands and what he sees for the future of that industry in Manitoba? MR. BOSTROM: We ll, Mr. Chairman, we have put together a public ation which is quite an extensive volume indicating some recent information on forest inventory.

I could make that publ ication available to the Honou rable Member, a copy for his caucus at least. I bel ieve that we did send those out to the MLAs. MR. BLAKE: The Manitoba Forest? MR. BO STROM: The Manitoba Forest. The most recent information we had at the date of publ ication ... MR. BLAKE: It contains all of the inventory material eh? MR. BOSTR OM: ... it's th is book here, Forests of Manitoba.

It indicates generally what I was saying yesterday in discuss ion of the forest resources of Manitoba that we have many areas of untapped forest resources, in fact, the most recent inventory in that book indicates that we are only producing essentially about 25 percent of the potential harvest with in Manitoba. The potential sustai ned yield harvest of our forests.

There's many areas of Manitoba that can yet be tapped and that is the reason for my department working more agg ressively with communities in areas where there are forests in order to help them to get forest industries establi shed which would provide employment in that area. MR. BLAKE: Yes, that covers it. I ju st wanted to be reassured that the information was in there. I haven't got thr ough the book in detail. I recall the statements that he had jus t related to us, that I did read them in that book, so if that information is available there, we won't belabour here, Mr. Chairman.

Some of the other members have que st ions on Inventory. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chair man, I now have the revenue figur e wh ich was requested. The anticipated revenue from al I forestry activities for the fiscal year 19 76-77 is $1,887 ,000.00. That is the best estimate we have available at this time - $1,887,000.00 - that's for the fiscal year 19 76-77. It's anticipated reve nue. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wou ld like the Minister perhaps at th istime to give us with the aid of his forestry official, some overview about the forestry operations at The Pas.

At the time of the inception or conception of the project at The Pas, there was a great deal of controversy among many things political and financial and other s which aren't germane of this committee but among those concerns certainly was and with perhaps reason at that time to be concerned about, (

a) the capab ility of the forests in and about that area to sust ain a last ing viable complex. I know that many forestry officials were concerned about lack of data in terms of at that time going back to the period of time that the project was first conceived - whether or not the bulk of the marginal stands involved in some of that area cou ld sust ain over in perpetuity, that kind of an operation. The plant has been operating now what ... three seasons or in that neighborhood. Your people must have, Mr.

Minister, by now had an opportunity to have from actual experience, a far closer look at what's happening with respect to the forestry resou rces in and about The Pas area and of cou rse in particu lar, the forest resou rces covered under lease to the project through ManFor. I wou ld like to solicit, Mr. Chairman, thr ough you from the Minister, a general statement as to how does his department, as the managers of this resource, regard the position of that resource, vis-a-vis The Pas Forestry Complex? (

a) Is it the professional ju dgement of his staff that the kind of resources set aside by lease are proving out in terms of capacity to supply that plant and (

b) also again, and more in the role of the managers and I speak in attem pting, Mr. Chair man, to avoid the political overtones that have always been attached to that project. I'm as king the Minister as the Minister responsible for the management of this resource, what do his officials tell him? How does he feel about how that resou rce in fact is being harvested ? What the future holds? Is the clear-cut method that is be ing emplo yed there, what are its consequences? Are we looking to a better second generation of forests when we make the full cycle? I wou ld like to have him speak to us, Mr.

Chairman, as a resou rce manager about the resou rce that we are now dealing with in the Estimates, namely forestry and how it's working out with the big gest operation that we have in the forestry field, namely the one at The Pas. He indicated ju st a little wh ile ago the gross royalty or stumpage fees returns to the department on the forestry operation of the Province of Manitoba. Perhaps he could also indicate to what extent, to what portion of that $1,887,000 The Pas operation contributes, if any, or has there been because of its cu rrent deficit situation a holdback charging of certain fees? Mr.

Chairman, I invite the Minister to give us his comments on the Forestry Complex. I would also invite him, Sir, to do that in the same tenure that I am giving them. Let's leave as ide the whereabouts of one Mr. Kasser, and whether you guys did 885

Friday, March 18, 1977 wrong or we did wrong, I'm asking him as a forestry resource manager at this moment, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, I respect the honourable member's desire to get straight answers on the quest ions that he has put. I'll refrain from discus sion on the po1itics of the-operation. The wood supply from the reports that I have had from the department is more than ample to keep the operation going on a sustained yield basis.

In fact I bel ieve the honourable member, if he looked at the Forestry Management book which was sent to all MLAs it would indicate in there that the area that's designated to Man For is twice the amount that would really be required to support th� present operation. In other words, the 40,000 squ are miles that was designated to the CFI project originally is now deemed after further forest inventory studies to be more than double what was required; and that in fact there are areas in ther e that cou ld su pport another mill equal to the size of the one that's in that area.

In fact the area which is out side of the Man For designated area -t he original CFI desig nated area - would also be available for a future forestry development which is in excess of double the amount required for that mill. I bel ieve these figur es are based on a sustained yield basis. That is, this is an amount that could sustain the mill in perpetuity. The reforestat ion efforts of the department have been, in the opinion of those tha t have been monitoring these activities, very succ essfu l.

There is something in excess of 8,000 acres that are reforested per year in the northern region, mainly by way of clear -cut method and scarification. The reports I have indicate that the scarification method is very successful bringing about regeneration.

The percentage of revenue that I indicated earlier tha t cou ld be attributable to Man For is actually qu ite smal l, because as the honourable member knows, at the risk of sounding pol itical, the rates that were originally establ ished for the CFI complex were very low, and the rates have been maintained in effect thr ough the operation of the present corporation which is operating this complex; and of the $1.8 million that we have sugg ested is an anticipated revenue from the entire forestry operation in Manitoba, only some $48,000 is expected from the Ma n For operation.

So althou gh it contributes a great deal to the north in terms of provision of jobs and job opportu nities in remote communities such as Moose Lake where we have community-based forestry operations supplying pulp wood to the mill at The Pas, the returns to the pro vince through revenues from the stumpage fees is not that significant. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Honourable Member for Lakes ide. MR. ENNS: Wel l, Mr.

Chair man, I would - ju st on the last subject - gently remind the Minister that of course there's been a change of ownership of tha t project, so that the original agreements made with the former owners, in my jud gement, need not necessarily have been pursued. That, Mr. Chair man, is my express desire on the part of this government and this Minister. But more to the point, Mr. Chair man, and I come back to that original point. It can then be laid to rest, the sug gesti on, that was given great comments by original critics of the concept of any viable pulp and paper operation in northern Manitoba that, (

a) we didn't have the necessary resou rces, and (

b) certainly we cou ldn't sustain them for a long period of time, that any major capital plant operation woul d require. I gather ed from the Minister's statement this morning that that can be laid to rest. I wou ld also solicit from him whether or not he's prepared to agree with me that some of the information that's now accru ing in the department of course took some time in gatheri ng. The original size and sale of lease, one cannot encourage that kind of an industry into northern Manitoba without be ing very sure of the necessary amounts of material available to sustain that pla nt.

If the Minister is now indicating that the lease can be, in fact, cut back considerably in size and acres and square miles, is he doing so, is my question, to afford perhaps other operators - not necessarily on that scale - smaller operators that wish to operate in the timber industry and the lu mber industry in that area? I'm cognizant of the fact that a very large tract of land was initially set aside when they leased this project.

The Minister seemed to indicate this morning that that 40,000 square miles of land, which was original ly set aside, can be considerably reduced - I be lieve he used the figure "halv ed" - is that in fact taking place and are provisions being made by his department for smaller or independent operators to operate on some of this land that over the past eight or nine years has been under lease to, originally CFI and now ManFor? MR. BOSTROM: We ll, Mr.

Chairman, I believe it is a matter of public record that the government recognizes that the area that was set aside for the forestry complex at The Pas was adequate, and that in fact the forest resource is indeed there to support the complex. I be lieve other members of th is government besides myself have indicated that while the way in which the project was introduced may be up for discussion and dispute, that the project in itself is a useful one, and that it can continue to be a usefu l one in terms of providing employment in the area.

On the other hand if you want to get into the profitabi lity of the operation that is another question, and in fact it may not be profitable for many years to come and it may not have even appeared to be profitab le in the first place it all the facts had been known and properly docu mented at the time. 886

Friday, March 18, 1977 MR. ENNS: Ju st one more area that I explore with th e Minister finally in concluding and my concern about this matter. The kind of environmental concern that's expressed by many people removed from the scene about the method of clear -cutti ng, about the management of the complex in the harvesting of timber in that area, your initial reports indicate the reforestat ion program as being success ful.

Wou ld you r officials be prepared to say that - which I belie ve is the fact - that the second generation of stands in fact will be likely better than the original ones, or the opportunity for them being health ier and better is there. MR. BOSTROM: Well, Mr. Chairman, as I indicated the method of clear-cutting is one which is accepted by the experts in this department and it is the reason for it being fol lowed in that particular area. The department officials woul d not be allowing cl ear-cut ting operations if it was considered to be a dangerous practice with respect to long range forestry development.

The reports that I have from the department indicate that the regeneration that we are getting thr ough our reforestation activities is more than suf ficient to maintain a susta ined yield basis. So that , in effect, both the clear cut ting and the reforestat ion activities by my department are successful techniques. MR. ENNS: Thank you , Mr. Chair man. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: Mr.

Chair man, under the item of Forestry Management I raise the general question again to indicate to the Minister, part of the problem tha t the opposition faces with respectto a review of the Estimates. Th is department as we all know was esta blishe d, I be lieve it was toward the end of 19 75 or early 19 76, was it? MR. BOSTROM: The department formal ly was establ ished in the fall of 19 75, although I assumed responsibility for this particu lar part of what used to be part of the Department of Mines and Resou rces in the fall of 19 74. MR. LYON: The fall of 19 74. MR.

BO STROM: So that the Estimates as you see them he re - this is the second year for this particul ar type of Estimate. MR.

LYON: Part of the prob lem, so that the Minister will be aware of the fact that the requests that we're making are not frivolous or intended to put him or his very competent senior staff who are here, to extra trouble is because, when you go to the Public Accounts - and forestry management is perhaps a good example - Pub I ic Accounts of course only speak as at the year ended 19 76, and you go to the Public Accounts and you try to find the different categories that are comparable to what appear on the Estimates, and it's very difficult either in terms of the votes or in terms of the names to fit people into place, and that's why we want to get this additio nal information that I was speaking about.

My main point however, was to ask the Minister under th is heading - and again it would apply perhaps more appropriate under his salar y or under the general administration - if he cou ld give us a breakdown, organizational chart or whatever he will, of the organization of the department so that we can see what the chain of command is and so on. I looked in the Annual Report to see if it were there, but I didn't find one. I presume that there's one available that we could look at so we can know what the chain of command is administratively. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chair man, I will un dertake to su pply such an organizational chart to the committee. MR. LYON: Thank you . MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 10 4(c) (2) (a)-pass; (2) (

b) Other Expenditures-pass; (2)-pass. Resolut ion 10 4(c)

(3) Forest Protection (

a) Salaries and Wages. The Honourable Member for Gladst one. MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to go on with the question I had yesterday to do with the spruce bud worm and what precautions the Minister's department have taken, what the area of infestat ion is, how general it is to the province, etc.? MR. CHAIR MAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chai rman, the only area that the department is involved in, in combatting the spruce bud worm is in the Spruce Woods Provincial Forest, and ther e's some 2,000 acres of spruce bud worm infected area in this Spruc e Woods Pro vincial Forest and the department is proposing in these Estimates a spraying program of approximately 2,000 acres at a total of $12,200 in these Estimates. MR. FERGUSON: Yes. Then cou ld we go on to the Dut ch Elm disease and how general is this affecting the province? Out side of the City of Winnipeg I understand that there are indications that it's here. Are ther e any reports from rural?

MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chair man, that question would more properly be put to the Minister of Agricu ltu re since his department has taken the responsibil ity of the ... MR. CHAIRM AN: Order please. MR. BOSTROM: The Dut ch Elm disease is under the ju risdiction of the Department of Agricu lture. MR. FERGUSON: Then I take it the Elm tree is not considered part of the forest of Manitoba, is th is 887

Friday, March 18, 1977 correct? MR. BOSTROM: Wel l, Mr. Chair man, perhaps it's use as an ornamental tree, rather than a tree which is commercial in nature, is the reason for it being with in the jurisdiction of the Department of Agricult ure. It's use is for beauty and for shade and so on, more aesthetic than commercial. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Minister of Ag ricultur e. HONOURABLE SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): Wel l, Mr. Chairman, it should be observed that the National Forestry Service works very closely with the Department of Agricu lture on disease prevention and control.

That is the longstanding arrangement. It has nothing to do with whether the tree is a forest product or an aesthetic product or whatever, it has to do with the way it is structured, federally and provincially. There's

an Act that provides for the protection of trees from disease and whatever, and that Act is hous ed in Ag ricultu re. MR. FERGUSON: Wel l, I gue ss we'll accept that, Mr. Chai rman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chair man.

I can understand my colleag ue's concern because a town in his constituency, Neepawa, whil e we all know that it's not nearly as beaut iful as Minnedosa has been winning awards for quite a number of years as being the most beautifu l town in Manitoba - somebody is related to the judge s somewhere - and I th ink the Elm trees in that town account for it having that recognition. I su ppose the question - we'll probably deal with the Minister of Agricultur e als o - I was concerned with forest tent caterp illa rs. I had asked the question earlier in the Hous e in connection with Riding Mountain National Park.

It's doubt fu l if they will allo w any spraying there and it's been requested by the municipalit ies there to have a buffer zone, roughly two miles around the outside of the park, sprayed to prevent the spread of the caterpil lars. I don't know whether this wou ld come under forest protection or whether it would come within the Minister of Ag ricultur e's purview with it. MR. CHAIAN: The Honourable Minister. MR.

BOSTROM: Here again is an area wh ich comes under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Agricu lture to the extent that the provincial government is providing assistance and supp ort for the control of this problem. As I understand it, the program that has been announced, is the same as it was last year and that is that municipal ities essentially are making the arrangements and doing the work of controlling with in their ju risdiction. The Department of Agricu lture provides assistance and, perhaps the Minister is indicating he could answer further. MR. CHAIAN: The Honourable Minister of Agricult ure. MR.

USKIW: Mr. Chair man, we have volu nteered to be the agency to assist municipal ities in the control of forest tent caterpill ars althou g h not because it's required of us by leg islation. Simply because we were al ready involved in bulk purcha sing of chem icals for other uses that we undertook the responsibili ty of assisting municipal ities, towns and vil lages in their sort of protect ion war against the tent caterpillar. The bulk purcha sing of chemicals is done th rough my department. We don't make any money on it, it's at cost to the municipal ity.

Municipal ities have to take on responsibility in delivering whatever program they wish to del iver within the�r area, with our technical advice and assistance. MR. BLAKE: Mr. Chair man, through you or if I migh t, to the Minister of Agricu ltur e, it's not surprising that any undertaking by one of the government departments wou ldn't make any money, that comes as no su rprise. I'm just questioning if the municipal ity in quest ion, a great part of it will be the local government districts that woul dn't have the fu nds maybe the municipal ities would have.

I'm jus t wondering if this can be co-ord inated with this departm1>n.t. They vvil! require a fairly large amount of aerial spraying and it will be impossible for them to do it by thems elves. I jus t wonder if the Minister woul d be open to negotiations with the ... I'm speaking of the municipality of Cl anwilli am and the local government district of Park around Riding Mountain. You've had some representations from them and I just woul d like the Minister to keep an open mind and continue negotiations if the th reat of the tent caterpillar becomes as severe as it has ,b een. MR. CHAIRM AN: Order please.

The Honourable Minister. MR. BOSTR OM: Mr. Chair man if we can get back to my Estimates, I'm sure the Honourable Minister of Agricultur e will take the honourable member's concern and do whatever he can with it. This particular

section under discussion, Mr. Chairman, is related to the protection of forests mainly from the point of view of providing protect ion agai nst the ravages of fires and there are eight staff man years in this section, salaries and other expenditures as outli ned in the book. We have had the worst fire season on record in 19 76, although I mus t say I have to commend the department in maintaining an excell ent record of controlling the fires. The province experienced 1, 12 8 forest fires, the highe st incidence in recorded history.

This su rpasses the old record of 707 establ ished in 19 61 when th ree milli on acres were bu rned. Despite this record number of fires, only 16 2,000 acres were destroyed. That compares to three milli on in 19 61 . The previous five year average is 41 7 fires per year, with an average bu rned acreage of 11 0,71 6 acres and I have to say that our excell ent record has to be the result of very vigilant efforts on the part of our staff who has maintained an excell ent record 888

Friday, March 18, 1977 of early detection and very efficient suppr ession of the fires in th is province. If I cou ld jus t by way of comparison point out how we compare to other jurisdictions. For example, the amount of acres in Manitoba which are under protection, that is that we have desig nated major commercial forest areas of Manitoba and those areas around communities and cottages and campgrounds and so on under protection by this department, it totals 82.2 mil lion acres. The number of fires, as I said, in those areas this last year was 1, 12 8 fora total acres bu rned of 16 2, 000.

In Minnesota they only protect 16 .8 million acres, less than one-quarter of the area we have to protect, they had 3,500 fires last summer and they lost 15 0,000 acres. In Ontario, they protect about half aga in as much as we do, 12 8,000,000 acres, they had al most 4, 000 fires, almost four times as many as we had and they had an area of destruction totalli ng 1. 3 milli on acres which is almost ten times the area lost in Manitoba.

So I have to say that the department has done an excell ent job of controlling the forest fire situa tion in Manitoba and we are gearing up with the necessary equipment and personnel to do as good a job , if not better, for this coming year. MR. BLAKE: I notice in the Annual Report, Mr. Chair man, that a study was undertaken to determine the effectiveness and the benefits from provincial expenditures on forest fire detection and suppr ession and I wou ld assume that the study has produced the resu lts that you have jus t indicated to us. Wou ld the Minister care to comment any further on tha t particul ar study?

MR. BOSTROM: We ll, Mr. Chai rman, we did put some figur es together to indicate what forests are calcula ted to be worth in terms of thei r value as sta nding forests, thei r commercial value when cut for pul pwood or lu mber and the final produc t value and we've taken a formal look at that to see what the value is of the forest and how it relates to the expenditures in controll ing the fires and it is our opinion, from looking at that information that indeed the expenditu re and the protection of forests is well worthwh ile and that we are, indeed, getting our money's worth. MR.

BLAKE: It may be opportune now, Mr. Chairman, if the Minister coul d bring us up to date on the success they've had in suppr essing the peat bog fires since last report. MR. BOSTR OM: Yes, Mr. Chairman, in fact I had a statement to make with respect to that which I just received the details on. We have found a total of 17 7 peat fires burning with in the province's wooded dist rict and these have been located by the thir d week of March. MR. BLAKE: With this new detect ion equipment? The aircraft? MR. BOSTROM: That's right.

Twenty-two in the western part of the province, 80 in the eastern area and 75 in the southern region including the Steinbach-Sprague areas. Sixty-four of these fires have been extinguished and work is being carried out to bring the other 113 under control. Sixty th ree of the fires st ill burning are in the additional area wh ich we took in as a resu lt of the Order-in Council which I took to Cabinet to give us the authori ty to control the fires that were outside the old des ignated boundaries of the wooded district.

Wh ile 50 of these fires that st ill need to be brought under control are in the fo rmer wooded district, about 40 men using bul ldozers and similar equipment are engaged in fighting these fires. It is expected all peat fires will be extinguished or fire guarded , that is brought under control, by April 15 th. Daily flig hts are being made by helic opter equipped with the Therma-Vision unit which can detect fires that cannot be seen by human observers.

It's a device which is heat sensitive and it locates the fire and the 'copter crew can then mark the area on the ground and it's fol lowed up by men and equipment to extinguish or control the fire. Bur ning permits are being issued in the wooded district only to persons who show a valid reason for obtai ning one. For example, the burning of trees infected by Dutch Elm disease is all owed by permit.

Permits may be obtained only by applying to a conservation officer, who will forward the request to his regional office for consideration and/or approval and I must emphasize that we have had excellent co-operation from municipal aut horities and private land owners to date in our .efforts to extinguish or bring these fires under control. A letter has been sent out to the land owners who are in the areas that are under our ju risdiction in this case, indicating that it is the land owner's primary responsibility to extinguish the fires if they are burning on his land and he is certainly encouraged to do so.

However, if the fire that is bur ning on his land is considered to be a public hazard, we would request permission to go on his land and to extinguish or control the fire. If the land owner refuses, and if the fire is deemed in the opinion of the fire protection people in the department to be a hazard to health or safety, then we will serve notice, one week's notice, and enter the property to control or extinguish the fire. MR. BLAKE: Yes, that clears that situa tion up very wel l, Mr. Chair man. It's encouraging to hear that the program is being that effective. Ju st a final quest ion.

There are qu ite a number of roads buil t by the ManFor operation that opened up several new lakes in the area north of The Pas and I've travell ed a number of those roads and fished in these lakes. I know at one time you had to obtain a permit to go on them. I just wonder if he might bring us up to date, if permits are st ill required, what their experience has been with sport fishermen going in, if they're causing any proble ms with open fires or is that situation wel l under control? MR. BOSTR OM: Mr. Chair man, indications from staff are that a permit is not required if it's a 889

Friday, March 18, 1977 company road. Normal ly, out of cou rtesy, people let the company officials know that they are going into the area. The experience of the forest protect ion people has been that hunters and/or fishermen have not by an large caused many problems with respect to fires. It has not been a great problem. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. - MR. JAMES R. FERGUSO N: Thank you' Mr. Chairman. Is there a charge for putting out these peat fires on private land if you enter the premises to put the fire out ? MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, for this year and this year only, I have the approval of Cabinet to control and extinguish the fires because of the ir public and health hazard and the province pays the fu ll cost of extingui shing and/or control ling these fires. As I said, if the fire is bur ning on private land, we would encourage the land owner to take action on the fire himself if he desi red to do so. But in the eventthat he does not do so and it's considered to be publ ic hazard, we will enter the property with his permission, without his permission we will serve him notice if we need to and enter in any case. MR.

FERGUSON: And th is pol icy is province wide, it's not ju st confined to the area around Richer and where the general fires were last fal l? MR. BOSTROM: The pol icy refers to the wooded district and we have made a change in the definition of the wooded district to take in those areas where there were fires bur ning outside of this department's jur isdiction. As I indicated ther e are some 63 fires wh ich are still burning in that area which we added to the province's wooded district in order to give us the authority, jur isdiction to do so. We've been putting ads in the local papers.

I've noticed them in the press lately, indicating the change in the area and general ly it's the area from the Red River east to the Ontario border and the area from about the bottom of Lake Manitoba across diagonally to the western boundary of the province. MR. BLAKE: Mr. Chair man, just a final que stion. The cost, I bel ieve, the Minister indicated of controll ing or suppressing the peat moss fires was somewhere in the neighbourhood of $400,000.00 I wonder if he cou ld tell us if that figure has been real istic, are you operating fairly close to that figur e? MR. BOSTROM: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

The most recent reports l've had is that we don't expect it will cost that much, that we will be well with in the estimates tha t we have made. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolut ion 10 4(c) . The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. HARRY SHAFRANSKY: When you were descr ibing the area to wh ich the fire fighting is being covered, does that include the Int erlake area all the way up into Fishe r Branch? MR. BOSTROM: Yes, Mr. Chai rman, I don't have the actual desc ription here, but it's approximately from the bottom of Lake Manitoba on the map north.

So all of that area in between Lake Manitoba and Lake Winnipeg and between Lake Manitoba and the western boundary of the province woul d be included . MR. SHAFRANSKY: And the U. S. border down south, in the south east ... MR. BOSTROM: ... in the south east corner, yes, Mr. Chair man. MR. CHAIR MAN: Resolut ion 10 4(c) (3) (a)-pass; (3) (

b) Other expenditures-pass; (3) - pass; Resolut ion 10 4(c)

(4) Research (

a) Salaries and wages. The Honourable Member from Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Yes; Mr. Chair man. I wonder if the Minister might just give us some general comments under research and give us some idea of wha t has been accompl ished here, what new species are being tested and what the resu lts have been. MR. BOSTROM: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, I don't have all the progress reports on the types of projects that have been undertaken by the department.

The research that the department is doing is related towards tree selec tion, that is to try to obta in those that are the best kinds of trees for obtai ning the highe st commercial value With in our commercial forests; seed orchard development, a rather technical kind of work done by tech nical people; we have experiments or trials on exotic species of trees, that is trees that are not native to Manitoba to determine how wel l they work in our environment, to see if they woul d be of any use; we have people working on improving nursery management tech niques wh ich i;ire of val ue to our own people in terms of making a better product for the reforestration program as well as producing information which is valu able to private nurseries, as well.

Selective breed ing operations are going oh to try to produce the hybrid types of trees which are fast-g rowing and which can produce a good comm�rcial value; and to do general research on seed production areas with in the province. There are 2.26 staff man years in this categ ory. And if the honourable member wants, like, detailed information on areas contained with in what I have ju st outli ned we could make that available. MR. BLAKE: Mr. Chair man, I'm ju st wo ndering what success we've had with any exotic trees, if any, what exotic trees were be ing used .

Some have been tested in other areas with considerable deg ree of su ccess but our cli mate is certainly different. I ju st wanted to get some more detailed information on that. And als o on research, what suc cess they' ve had or what experiences they have had with fertilizing forest areas. MR. BOSTROM: Wel l, given the honourable member desi res that kind of detailed information I will take the question as notice and get a more complete report and description from the research branch as to th eir succ ess in these areas. 890

Friday, March 18, 1977 MR. BLAKE: Yes, I suppose under research there is continuing study on other uses, or other ways to provide employment opportunities, or economic opportu nities to people in the areas that are native to our forest areas. The Minister might make some comment on that particu lar area. MR . BOSTROM: No, Mr. Chair man, that would fall more under the planning and management of our existing forests. This

section here is related more to the pure research, scientific research of a laboratory nature where they are doing quite academ ic and technical kind of research. Not so much the field work which would be assoc iated with helping communities to reforest areas or select areas wh ich wou ld be best to cut in, and so on. That would be done by regional tech nical people. MR. BLAKE: Yes, that's fine, Mr. Chair man. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolut ion 10 4(c). The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, one brief que stion.

The project that was attempted in the Turtle Mountain area, oh three or four years ago, wh ere they went in and bul ldozed out rows and then left a row, has that project been scrapped or is that ... MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chair man, I have heard reports on that particular project and it was a regional effort by the western region. It was really an experimental or pilot project to assess what the value would be of cutting in strips rather than using the clear-cutting method we were discussing earlier.

I do not have a report handy on that but I cou ld take that question as notice and provide the honourable member with that information. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolu tion 10 4(c) (4) (a)-pass; (4) (b) -pass; .Resolu tion 10 4(c) (4)-pass; Resolution 10 4(c)

(5) Regional Technical Su pport (

a) Salaries and Wages. The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Yes, Mr. Chair man, I supp ose the technical supp ort staff wou ld be an area where we might get some answers to jus t what this covers. One par ticular area, woul d th is in any way cover work done on the road on Bl ack Island? Was any technical assistance provided by this department in that area? MR. BOSTROM: In that specific area, Mr. Chair man, there was no tec hnical work of a forestry nature provided. The road route on Bla ck Island was laid out by the transportation services

section of my department and in fact was buil t under the juri sd iction of the transportation services

section of my department. The technical people with in parks were involved in laying out the area, laying out the roadway itself in order to make it most compatible with the type of dev elopment that was being planned for that part of the park. MR. BLAKE: Yes, we would get some answers then under the transportation

section on Page 57 of the report. This woul d be the more correct place. All right, then, if the Minister migh t ju st elaborate on how many people are em ployed in the regional tech nical suppor t area and just what their function is. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chair man, ju st in general th is regional technical support sect ion includes a majority of the actual field that handles the projects that are level implementers of forestry programs. It's th is level actu ally put into service to the public.

They are the front line troups, if you will, that put out the fires, plant the trees, construct fireguar ds and roads, su pervise timbercut ting and the general regul ations contained with in the Forest Act. There are 10 2.24 permanent staff man years in this sect ion. That's the same number that we had last year. There is no increase. The breakdown of the major activities is in the four regions. There is 23 staff man years in the northern region; 39.51 in the southern region; 21 .41 in the eastern region; 18.26 in the weste rn. MR.

BLAKE: That woul d jus t general ly include the normal staff that wou ld be employed in carrying out the functions of the department. MR. BOSTROM: That's right, Mr. Chair man. Some of the staff man years that I've mentioned are related to more people than woul d normally be indicated by the staff man years because people are hired under this section, seasonally. There are forest firefighters and su pervisors for forest firefighting hired here. There might be four people hired for thr ee months wh ich would, in effect, mean one staff man year. But ther e would be four people attached to that staff man year. MR.

BLAKE: Wou ld ther e be any duplic ation here with employees of the parks branch or with the Department of Mines and Natural Resou rces, no problem with duplic ation? . MR. BOSTROM: No, Mr. Chairman, this wou ld be the professional foresters, forest technicians who do the tree planting and handle the technical aspects of forest management. There the firefight ers, as I said , the enforcers of the acts and regula tions, and jus t in general people who carry out a function which is related to forest management, not only with in the general Crown land area of Manitoba but also with in parks at the request of parks.

So we provide a service to other departments as we ll. MR. BLAKE: You'd recover any costs involved from the other department? MR. BOSTR OM: I don't bel ieve so. It wou ld be a service provided . If they had some technical assistance that they required for park development and one of our foresters, or forest technicians went in and did some work it would be just part of their normal function, and would be part of our normal funding process. 891

Friday, March 18, 1977 MR. BLAKE: These wou ld include some of the people involved in your Resou rces for Tomorrow program. Wou ld they be involved in that program in any way? MR. BOSTROM: We ll, only to the extent that there might be some co-operation on conversion of those lands, or someth ing like that. Someth ing related to forestry. For example, in the silver cultur e

section of this, ther e are 15 staff man years, 2 .26 in the northern, 12 .2 in the southern, and .1 O in the western. And they are related , they are the ones who do the reforestrat ion. And as may be indicated by these numbers, much of the reforest rat ion work by staff is done in the southern region where most of the staff are located. They treated 1, 575 acres in the southern region plus an additional 574 for parks. And they prepared for planting and scarifying and so on a further 1, 950 acres in the southern region, plus another 600 for parks.

This is done, you know, th rough the normal process of the department. The Parks don't reimbu rse us for this. MR. BLAKE: That's fine, Mr. Chair man. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolut ion 10 4(c) (5) (a)-pass; (5) (

b) Other Expenditures. The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Mr. Chair man, I don't have any other questions here. I'm jus t th inking and looking at the time. We're finishing this

section and going into another section, that we may pass th is and possibly the committee could rise and go into Wildl ife this afternoon if no one has any further questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolu tion 5(

b) Other Expenditures. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: That, I take it, is general ly suppor t for the staff shown in the (

a) item, and so on. Are there any notable figures in there that should be brough t to our attention, a breakdown of that figure of you know th ree-quarters of a million dol lars. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chair man, it represents funds which are divided among the various regions for the various activities. Ju st to break it down by region: The other expenditures for the fiscal year 19 77-78 are projected as 21 0.9 in the northern, 41 5.4 in the southern, 241 .7 in the eastern, 13 5.0 in the western. It's further broken down into management.

That is the profess ional foresters and forest technicians, as I indicated, where there is 33.6 in the northern (tha t's thousands of doll ars) , 85.1 in the southern , 65.6 in the eastern, and 41 .0 in the western. And then there's further breakdowns for those that are involved in acts and enforcement, and reforestrat ion, and forest protection. So you know if you would like me to go into that kind of det ail, I could. MR. LYON: I don't know if this is possible because I haven't had any success in finding it, Mr.

Chairman, but referring again to Public Accounts, and I know that these items were ext racted and reformu lated when they were drawn out from the old Department of Mines and Resources. But again, I supp ose, I'm trying to point out the difficult y of trying to relate an item such as a th ree-quarters of a mill ion dol lar item, regional technical supp ort. It appeared in last years Estimates. It does not appear, so far as I can see it, in the Public Accou nts of the province.

To get some general breakdown by function, by the amount that is spent on uniforms, the amount spent on transportat ion, fringe benefits, etc., etc. If anyone, Mr. Chairman, from the Minister or his department can indicate to me where I might find some eluci dation in Public Accounts of this same item in the old Department of Mines and Resou rces, I'd be de eply gratefu l. I haven't been ab le to find it. MR. BOSTROM· Mr.

Chairman, I can take the question as notice and perhaps suppl y the Honourable Leader of the Opposition with an example breakdown for the projections for 19 77-78 and where they would likely show up in the Public Accounts when they are publ ished. MR. LYON: Mr. Chair man, I know this is not a question for the Minister. Perhaps the accounting staff of his department could tell us. Perhaps it's more appropriately directed to the Controller General.

But if the department, as the Minister says, was severed from Mining and Resou rces in 19 74, why is it that in the Publi c Accounts of March 31 st, 19 76, we st ill do not see the separate items shown for renewable resources and transportation services. At least if they are ther e, I haven't found th em. I stand subject to correction, but I haven't been able to find them. MR. BOSTROM: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, I don't have the information available, at this time. I'll take that question as notice and I should be able to bring it back this afternoon, I wou ld hope. MR. LYON: I'm just looking for healt h.

I'm not trying to be overly critical of the Minister. I know the Minister to be critical of, when we come to it, if I'm right in my assumption. But if the Minister of his staff can give us some indication as to what touchstone we could use from Public Accou nts to bring us up to date on this, that woul d be help fu l. MR. BOSTROM: It woul d have been with in the fiscal year 19 75-76 that the department was reorganized as a separate department. And I would expect possibly when the Public Accou nts were made up that it would have been shown as a

section of Mines and Resou rces yet in the publ ished Publ ic Accounts. So if the honourable member would look in the Public Accounts under Mines and Resou rces, there shoul d be a portion of that department that relates to this one that woul d give the breakdown by the various sections that are pretty close to the ones that are in this book here. Because previous to the splitting off of this part as a separate department it was very much a separate part of the previous department of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management. I operated as 892

Friday, March 18, 1977 the Minister responsible for the lands, forests, and wil d life resou rces sect ion of tha t department since 19 74 although it came out in the publ ished publi c accounts as part of the total department. And I woul d expect if the honourable member can't find it as a separate item with in the public accounts tha t it wou ld be st ill publ ished as a part of Mines, Resou rces and Environmental Management. MR. LYON: Thank you, Mr. Chai rman. The Minister has given me some help. Now I see on Page 14 5 of the Publ ic Accounts we have land, forest, wildl ife resou rces $15,375,000, etc.

Administration, Minister's compensation. But the problem we're running into, if I can lay this bur den on his shoulder and ask for some help, is that as for instance in the case of forestry management I don't see a comparable item. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chair man, this probably would be a complicated accountant's task of relating the breakdown that you see in this book to wha t it was when it was st ill a part of the Department of Mines, Resou rces and Environmental Management.

As I ex plained in my opening statement when we went into ihe Est imates, and I grant the Honourable Leader of the Op position was not here to hear that. but I did indicate that we've gone through a major reorganization in the department. And, given that we have and the year end that we have, there have been transfers around, redeployment of staff and so on, to effect the figur es that are in this book.

It is a completely proper process as I am sure the Honourable Leader of the Opposition will recognize and it is laid out in the book here in the manner in which it is estimated that we will spending all the funds that were voted to us in the fiscal year ending March 31 , 19 77. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The time be ing 12 :30, I am leaving the Chair to return at 2:30 this afternoon. 893

Friday, March 18, 1977 ESTIMATES - HEAL TH AND SOCIAL DEVELOPM EN T MR. CHAIRMAN: I woul d now refer honourable members to Page 29 of the ir Estimates Book. Resolut ion No. 60(

c) Ch ild and Family Services

(1) Salarie s-$276,200.00. The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. HONOUR ABLE LAURENT L. DESJAR DINS (St.Boniface): Mr. Chair man, before we proceed with the Estimates, I wonder if I could answer some of the questions asked of me yesterday. First of all, a question of the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. During the calendar year 19 75- 76, members of the Manitoba Drug Standards and Therapeutics Committee met 45 times; since the beg inning of 19 77 it has met7 times.

The committee has developed fou rformula ries and publ ished 17 drug information bu l letins wh ich have been made availa ble to all medical doctors, dentists and pharmacists in our province. It has also had several discus sions with other provinces and participated in a number of federa l-provincial meetings. Presently th is four-member committee has been assisting with the task of making the program of the Health Protection Branch work in a fashion that is more responsible to not only matters with its needs but also the needs of other provincial jur isdictions.

This task has been particularly evident during the past twelve months. In order for the Manitoba committee to revise the existing inter-changeable formulary any further, it is awaiting constructive actions on the part of the Health Protection branch. I am pleased to note that the members of the Manitoba Drug Standards and Therapeutics Committee were single-handed ly responsible for the removal of a drug crisis treatment gui de for Manitoba hospital emergency centres because this publ ication publi shed by the autho rity of the National Health and Welf are contained bas ic inconsistent therapeutic recommendations.

The gui de is presently being revised and may be reissued in the near futur e with sugg ested corrections that our provincial committee has spent many hour s in identifying. The committee's work is done mostly du ring the evenings and it employs with one fu l l-time secreta rial staff member. The Manitoba Drug Standards and Therapeutics Committee consist of: Chai rman - Dr. l.R . Innes, Head of the Department of Pharmacology and Therapeutics, University of Manitoba; Members: J. L. Johns on BSc. Pharma cy and community pharmacist; Pau l A.

Mintenko, M.D., Clini cal Pharma colog ist, Health Sciences Centre; Jeffrey Morris, M.D ., Director of Clinical Nu clear Medicine Laborato ries, Winnipeg Clinic. Then to a question asked of me by the Honourable the Member for Rhineland: what percentage of chi ldren are immunized against polio? The pre-school immunization 2-4 years old: 90-95 percent; sch ool age: 95-98 percent; adul ts: 90 percent plus, in the 90 percent plu s range. It is possible that the Sabin vaccine could give a life-long immunity. A question from the Honourable Member for Swan River. What is the age breakdown of venereal disease cases?

The answer: Fifty percent of all cases of venereal disease are under 25 years of age; 75 percent of al I cases are under 30 years of age. I have a detailed - I can send a copy to each party - on the breakdown by age of the main venereal diseases. I am not sur e whether the Honourable Member from Fort Garry was finished when we closed the shop last night - he was making an interesting sugge st ion and if he is not ... Fort Rouge, I am sorry. I wonder if he was not qu ite finished , I would rel inquish the floor to him. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Member from Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr . Chairman.

I think it is somewhat difficu lt to pick up a particular th read of thought but I was sugge sting that if the diagnosis of the Minister, that the problem in the chil d care areas was increasingly reaching into a larger percentage of young adole scents, those in the age bracket of 14t o1 8, and that the availabil ity of care factil ities, particula rly foster homes, group homes, community-related facilities, were shrinking because of a demand put upon it by other kinds of community-related health and care services, for senior citizens and day care and whatnot; that really sugg ested to me that there was a major problem looming in the sheer availability of places and opportu nities for these young people coming under the ward ship of the government, to find a place to go.

If something isn't done, I gue ss we might be forced back into the whole institutional care idea 894

Friday, March 18, 1977 wh ich we have now been spending a few years trying to get away from, recognizing its real limitations. I gue ss what I was reall y trying to sug gest to the Minister is that, with in the Estimates that are available here, I felt that there shou Id be some assistance available to provide incen-tives to a broader spectrum of private organizations. I th ink I included in this, groups like trade union organizations, many of the chur ch and charit able organizations and perhaps a lot of the community organizations, to provide types of residential work opportu nities for these young adolescents.

I know that my mother is invo lved on the boards of several ha lfway homes in the city which deal with delinquent childr en and in many cases one of the real problems is finding work forthe m to do; that they do have a house but they have no place to actuall y go out and spend their time and make money and yet, where those opportunities are afforded , it in some ways is alm ost the best ther apy available, because it gives some meaning and purpose to their time and to thei r activity.

It seemed to me that what we need in our Estimates reall y is a form of incentive program to encourage and indu ce a number of community organizations to beg in thinking in terms of developing the kind of situations in which these you nger adolescents under the wardsh ip can be placed and placed in a fairly meaningful way.

I think I used the example - I cou ld perhaps be more precise - where in some areas of Great Britain for example they have taken schools in parts of the cities or in rural areas wh ich no longer have a high school population, and began turning those over for the use of those kind of workshop type atmospheres. In some cases they have taken over a number of older bu ildings that are going to be abandoned or wh ich need an upgrade, and they provide a kind of living-in quarters for them but which again are associated with some kind of work activity.

It would seem to me that that should be the direction we are going into, into that developmental idea, but presently the funding for foster home, group home and care home facil ities, is geared mainly to maintenance and retention of people and not to a developmental kind of activity, a preventative type of activity. It is to hold them in a place and maybe provide some psychiatric or pyscho logical treatment but not in terms of giving them some opportunity to enlarge and experience, go into work worlds and so on.

It would seem to me tha t that would be one of the areas where you could probably end up doing a lot of cost saving, if tha t kind of incentive was being offered and that it was trying to enlist the co-operation or the involvement of a much wider range of community services, rather than simpl y relying upon the trad itional sou rces of group or foster home placements. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. DESJA RDINS: Mr. Chair man, this is qu ite interest ing. I don't know if this would solve the problem of finding a pla ce for these people to live.

I don't th ink it would; I th ink it would maybe help to keep them busy but I might say, most of these chi ldr en are at schoo l du ring the day. We have someth ing, not exactly like that, fairly close to it with the STEP Program but tha t is only dur ing the summer, mostly in the holi days and so on. Now, that will not replace the group homes or the foster homes and ther e is no doubt tha t because of the increased age and also because, as I stated yesterday, that we are competing with our other programs and so on for these type of homes, that it is going to be a problem .

Some of these people, they had a program that the y were taking people that had been in a mental institution for a long time and they go in the home. That was a highl y successful program but again that is all competition. My honourable friend is right though, that that is the problem tha t we see all of a sudden and it makes it difficult when there has been a tendency or a policy of going to the community. We are not quite ready and we cannot cope with it and that is why we had some of the trouble in Sel kirk. At one time the staff didn't know exactly where we were going and so on.

Now, without saying that this definitely wou ld be approved, we woul d certainly be interested in looking at the programs.

When my honourable friend was speaking yesterday I thought, well all right, if that is going to replace the group homes or the foster parents, there woul d be money there, but that woul d be in add ition to making it easier for these people to try to teach them discipline and keep them interested and so on, and I gue ss you could, you cert ainly could include sports in that also because I happen to think that sports can do wonders with people to teach them discipline and fair play and concern for others.

I am not necessarily talking about the brawls they have in the NHL and so on to amuse the mostl y-American aud iences but I can assure my honourable friend that we will look at this very seriously. I am su re we will find some money somewhere. If we had a good program and if somebody could come in with a worthwhil e program, I would be very interested , especially if we deal with volu nteers, because I th ink that is another thing we need and it is another sou rce of revenue, I might say, which is drying out because of too much involvement sometimes of the government.

I wou ld be ready to look at that only on paying certa in expenses but not in paying these people. I don't th ink that is what my honourable friend means anyway. At one time you had the fire department and the pol ice department very active in that. I understand that this kind of work has been a real success in Chicago for instance where their problems are even worse than ours and apparently that has been very success ful. I remember having a ta lk once and I was greatly impressed by the former boxer Tony 895

Friday, March 18, 1977 Zale who has devoted his life to do exactly that kind of work. So I thank my honourable friend for the idea, for reminding me of the idea again, and I can assure you that we wou ld gl adly sit down with people that are interested in doing this kind of work and we would encourage them as much as we can. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolut ion 60(c) (1 ). The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: On this particu lar topic, Mr.

Chai rrP.an, I wou ld like to remind the Minister of conversations - wel l, I su ppose more than conversations - of some disag reements that we had last year with respect to the approach of the department in terms of who could del iver some of these necessary services faster and better, preferably faster: the government, the department or the private resource and agency field.

And in particul ar I would remind the Minister that we talked at that time about psychiatric services for severely emotionally distur bed chi ldren. -(I nterjection)- That's under Mental Health and the Minister has a stat ement coming on it? The Minister has a state ment coming on that, Mr. Chai rman? MR. DESJAR DINS: I th ink I have if it is what we were tal king about last year, but this will come under Mental Health; that is, there will be more explanation on that.

I have al ready made a state ment last night that covers part of that and that is probably why my honourable friend is referring to that, but I wou ld hope that we cou ld continue this because we are zeroing in on a special need now and this will be covered under Mental Health if my honourable friend doesn't mind. MR. SHERM AN: That is fine, then, Mr. Chairman.

Wel l, let me move then to another area, and that is the per diem funding arrangement and the criticisms of that arrangement that are largely based on the argu ment that you can't apply standardized universal parameters in the field of fu nding and that many services of the department and of related agencies working on department programs are hampered by the locked in per diem approach.

There have been suggestions, of cou rse ther e are always suggestions, that per diem rates shoul d be raised, but qu ite apart from that, there have been sugge stions that the whole approach to funding should be changed, particu larly with respect to foster ho mes and foster parents, and that the single per diem rate does not reflect the differences in services required, the differences in program qual ity, the differences in intensity of treatment, and that there should be some serious considerat ion given to a salaried base for the operation of foster homes and for the funding of foster parents.

It has been pointed out, some criticisms, that in the final analysis the per diem rate doesn't reflect the

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-22a
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Language	en
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