VOL. 3 I PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, JULY 9, 1981 NO. 76

/ July 9, 1981 Tape 3179 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER: MS VERGE: The hon. the Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, this morning the news media reported that because of the postal strike, fewer than 3,000 Grade XI public examination papers had been received for grading by the exarninatibn marking board. While the media quoted a spokesman for the marking board, in fact, no officials of my department w~re contacted. The information, M+· Speaker, is quite inaccurate.

In fact, 98 per cent of the approxi­ mately 50,000 papers written during this year's public examinations have been received and will.be graded on schedule. This year approximately 8,500 students wrote public exams at 200 centres during the period from June 17 to June 26. In order to expedite the marking process, papers were forwarded to the department at the end of each examination day. When the postal strike began, my officials determined that all but 1,700 papers had been received.

Yesterday, through the co-operation of the Canadian Union of Postal Workers and the Regional Director of Postal Services, my department obtained approximately l,GOO papers which had been located at the postal distribution centre on Kenrnount Road. If the remaining 700 papers are located and delivered by the end of next week, complete results for all students will be released on

schedule by mid-August. In the event, Mr. Speaker, that we are unable to obtain the remaining papers in time, B L~ 4 7

.' July 9, 1981 Tape 3179 EC - 2 MS VERGE: all_ availa:b.le results will be released on schedulea We are able to issue complete transcripts for approximately 8,000 students. The remaining students, approximately 5.00, will obtain results. for all exams available for grading,and will be issued a complete transcript when the outstanding papers are received and graded. Exam results are normally mailed directly to students. However, if the strike continues, the results will ·be released through school board offices. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde has about a minute. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I am happy that the minister has informed the House of a situation regarding the marking of the public examinations. I am just wondering, Mr. Speaker, if the minister could indicate - she said 98 per cent of the 50,000 papers have, in fact, been delivered to ,the markinq board and there are approximately 500 yet underdiscovered- you are still looking_ for 500 papers. MS VERGE: Approximately that number, yes. MR. F. ROWE: Right. The two po ints I .would like to raise, Mr.

Speaker, in reply to the minister's statement is this: I understand, as well, that there is one set of shared evaluation of marks tbat have not been received from one school in the Provi.nce. I was wondering if the minister could undertake to find out what the situation is with regard to that one set of shared evaluation marks from that one school -I am not sure of the name of the school­ and, you know, exactly what plans are being 844R

I / July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3180 MR. F. ROWE: taken by the government to recover the 500 pa~ers that are still missing? SD - 1 know Also, Mr. Speaker·; I would like to as the minister indicated that if there is· still a strike when the marks become available,they will be delivered presumably to the school boards by hand or through some other mode of transportation and from the school boards to the various high schools under their jurisdiction, and that presumably is the contingency plan that the government is planning to use and there appears to-be no problem with that. Mr.

Speaker, you know, it is a problem and hopefully it will be solved and we ac~ept it. MR. SPEAKER {Simms) : Further statements? The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to announce the appointment of Miss Anne M. Perry, B. Comm., C.A., to the post of Assistant Comptroller General {Financial Controls), with responsibility for the operations of the Divisionsof Government Accounting, Internal Audit and Financial Systems. Miss Perry was born in St. Albans and is a gradu~te, ±n Commerce, of Memorial University of Newf ·oundland.

She entered the Public Service with the Department of the Auditor General in 1969. In 1977, Miss Perry was appointed the first Director of Internal Audit Division in the Department of Finance and was subsequently appointed Director of Debt Management. · She is a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Newfoundland and the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants. SOME HON, MEMBERS: Hear, hear. 8'-+ 4 q

July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3180 SD - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Leader of ·the Opposition has about thirty seconds. MR. STIRLI NG: Mr. Speaker, we welcome the appointment and we wish Miss Perry well in her new endeavours. MR. SPEAKER: Further statements? ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question - I wonder could the hon. gentlemen tell us if the Premier is going to be in his seat today to answer cruAstions? i-!R. MARSi:iALL: '.rne Prani.er is attending a meeting rut will be here later. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I will save the questions I haVfi! for the Prani.~ until he is here then, they are so inp:Jrtant. I would like to ask the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe), -~time ago I put a question on the Order Paper about the extending of a power line across the Exploits River at the junction of the Bay d'Espoir Highway and the Trans-Canada Highway and yesterday in an answer that we given to me by the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Barry) he said that there was no cost incurred on behalf of the people of this Province and then in his next paragraph he says, 'The cost to the Public Treasury was $25,000 and this was incurred by the Department of Highways for highway lighting'.

Now would the hon. gentleman tell the House now that 'the Minister of Mines and Energy has confirmed that $25,000 of taxpayers' money was s•>ent to light this intersectiop ,of the Trans-Canada Highway, wmlld the hon. gentleman tell the House if indeed there are lights at the intersection of the Bay d 1Espoir Hi .ghway and the Trans- Canada Highway and,if so, how many lights are placed on that intersection? I _, ... ' I B4Sn

July" 8, 1981 Tape No. 3181 IB-1 MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I will have to take that question under advisement and get the answer either later on today or tomorrow. I will try and get it this afternoon for the hon. gentleman and let him know. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: That is fine, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon.

While the hon. gentleman is at it,perhaps he can also get me the ~information of why only the intersection of Bay d'Espoir-if indeed there are light there,and I would suspect there is not a light on that intersection, there has never been a light there and therefore I would like to know what happened to the $25,000. If indeed the lights are not there,I would like for the hen. gentleman to tell us what the $25,000 was paid out for.

And would the hen. gentleman undertake to tell us why a policy was just designed for that particular intersection and none of the other intersections were considered by the minister's department? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: My question is also to the M~nister of Transportation and it is with regards to the airstrips in Coastal Labrador. The federal government is 'responsible for building them and unfortunately we are still waiting in .the Southern part of Labrador. But ..

Cartwright is a provincial airstrip and Labrador Airways now uses Cartwright and Mary's Harbour three times a week, flying from Goose Bay, Cartwright, Mary's Harbour, St. Anthony, Gander and St. Jo~n's _ ~nd returning. Unless there are some high frequency beacons and lighting in the airstrip at Cartwright - the federal government is looking after the one in Mary's Harbour and is going to do it - unless this is done in Cartwright-and the problem is having a power line to the airstrip site - unless this is going 8451 I

July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3181 IB-2 MR. HISCOCK: to be done,then Labrador Airways will have to do away with their flight into Cartwright and curtail their services come September with the shorter days. Could the minister ±nform us if we are going to get high powered,non-directional beacons as well as lighting on the airstrip in Cartwight? MR. SPEAKER(SIMMS): Transportation. MR. DAWE: The hon. Minister of Mr. Speaker, the .t is correct. We have ongoing discussions with the 'federal Department of Transport as it relates to the airstrips on Coastal Labrador.

And hopefully the process that has been in place for some time now will be speeded up over the next · number of years and we will complete the total of fourteen airstrips that have · been planned. As it relates to Cartwright and the beacons necessary,I am afraid that I do not know at this time but again I will find out for the hon. member and give him the information. MR. HISCOCK: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Eagle River. MR.

HISCOCK: As the Minister of Transportation said, there are fourteen airstrips that are going to be done and these fourteen airstrips are being done by the federal government. But the one that is not being done is Cartwright.

And according to the letter that I have here from the Director of Air Operations that it is J:ecause 'the Twin Otter ~ice. retaining its ]:)resent: level of Summertime schedules we are not able to p~de yet all the support facilities necessary to enjoy a similiar service during the short days of the Winter period.' I would like to ask the Minister of !ransportation to make sure that his department undectAkes to make sure that we do hav~ lighting 845?. f

f July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3181 IB-3 MR. HISCOCK: and high pq~er beacons for Cartwright or else we will have to go back another ten or fifteen years, the way the service was before. 845~

July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3182 EL - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms ) : The hen~ member for St. Mary's - the Capes. MR. HANCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Transportati-on (R. Dawe) • we are fortunate in my district to have a crusher in the area that is crushinq stone, Mr. Speaker, but the disturbing fact about it is that the 4,000 tor:o; of crushed stone that the crusher is presently crushin~ will be used to build up the shoulders of the road and not to be placed on the dirt sections of road in the district.

I was wondering if the minister could firtd some funds in this year's budget,or has he got any extra funds to provide some crr.ushed stone to be placed on the badly needed roads in that area? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transport- ation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, in that particular area of the Province,as well as all other areas of the Province, there is a regular maintenance programme ongoing.

The Budget has already been announced and the projects for this year are in place and I do not see where I can find additional funds to increase the expenditures in the hon. member's district or in any other district at this particular time. MR.HANCOCK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for St. Mary's - the Capes. MR. HANCOCK: Yes, Mr. Speaker~ I understand from the foreman with the Department of Highways in that area that they are not allowed to do any upgrading work.

As a matter of fact, they were doing some upgrading work that was necessary on the roads and they got caught and they were ordered to stop i~ediately. They are only allowed to do maintenance 1 like put I , tl454 in culverts

July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3182 EL - 2 MR.HANCOCK: and build up shoulders of the roads which is not very sufficient for the road work that needs to be carried out. So I would like to ask the minister at this time, - is he aware that the plant in Trepassey may close, one of the largest plants on this Island,because of dirt roads in that area where we have nothincr - the roads are not fit to drive over, tne vans are being destroyed. I ask the minister. is he aware of the problem that exists and does he plan on doing anything about it? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Trans- portation. MR. DAWE: Mr.

Speaker, there is a regular programme of road maintenance throughout this Province and the department · forces are very capable of carrying out their mandate as it relates to the amount of funding and the number of personnel that · they have. They are doing a very good job. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. HANCOCK: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. member for St. Mary's - the Capes. MR. HANCOCK: It is very obvious that the minister does not visit communities around this Province very often, esp- ecially my own district.

The roads are not fit to drive over, I can inform the I!)inister. And is he aware, I ask hi!"' . is he aware that the '(an drivers in that area are plannincr rm oick~tjn<"T the roads so tllat the plant in Trepassey will IDt be closed because of .cad road conditions. MR. llJSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SI'F.AKER: The ron. rranber for Terra Nova. MR. IDSH: Tne minister is not going to answer the question. MR. WARREN: NO, ID answers. MR. llJSH: Mr. Speaker, I na ve a ]Uestion for the Minister of Justice (G. Ottenhebner) since the matter involves justice, natural justice, justice being denied our people.

The minister will recall that I directed a question to. the Premier a few days ago concerrU.r;g the discrimination, the disgraceful dis- / I tl45~ /

July 9, 1Q81 Tape No. 3182 EL - 3 MR. LUSH: crimination· shown the taxpayers of Terra Nova by being rejected capital works money for water and sewer and roads, a:nd in view of" the rampant unanployment I askeri the Premier at the time whether it was tne policy of tne govE!Dment to deny Newfoundlanders mobilty rights.

So, I will direct the ques­ tion to the Minister of Justice (G.Ottenheimer}, whether indeed he can confirm that it is the policy of his ·department, and there­ fore the policy of the government,to deny Newfoundlanders mobility rights, the right to move around this Province, to work and to live in the area of their choice? We know the government's policy with respect to mobility rights in Canada, but within this Province is it the policy of this government to allow people to move around this Province, to work in the area of their choi.ce·. ~ 45Fi I

July 9, 1981 MR .. SPEAKER (Sii11Ills): MR . OTTENHEIMER: Justice, DP.rhan~. AN HC:t4. !"'EMl::EK: Tape 318;3 PK - 1 The hon .. Minister of Justice. Well,the hon. Minister of Natural Supernatural Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: No,not Supernatural. Natural Justice is difficult enough to dispense but Supernatural would be outside of the hands of all hon. members here. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! MR. OTTENHEIMER: Certainly, Mr. Speaker, it is government policy nere, obviously, not the Department of Justice, you know, policy as such.

The Department of Justice stands for natural justice and does all it can to encourage its recognition and practice and re$pect for natural justice and its encouragement and enhancement and development throughout the Province. With respect to the question of local preference and the question of mobility, of course, I think the government's position is quite well-known with respect to the offshore and certainly a policy of local preference whereby when Newfoundlanders who are qualified are available then certainly they are employed.

With respect to within the Province 1 certainly the mobility rights of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians through the Province is recognized. There is also an aspect - there are two perspectives on this, .. obviously, two perspectives; one,the mobility of residents throughout the Province,and also,of course,in a number of areas especially those where unemployment is very high and there are activities generating employment within those areas then there is the, I think, unstandable desire of people living within that area to also be able to work 8457

/ Jul y 9, 1981 Tape 318 :3' PK - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: and, you know, th~t could be designated as a partial,internal,Iocal preference, I.suppose, you know, it could well be. But I think all -non. members are aware of what the situation is.

It is not a.negative one of denying people, I suppose, it is an affirmative one of making sure that when there is a very high level of unemployment in a specific area, and there is employment generating activity there that th~ people in that area in which the activity is taking place, in an area which 'has . a very high unemployment ratio 1 then obviously they do expect a c.~rtain aspect of local preference. ~. LUSl{: MR. SPEAKER {Si~s) : ! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, 845R

, ' July 9,1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR.LUSH: Tape No. 3184 ah-1 the hon.member for Terra Nova. Can the ~inister identify for the benefit of the House areas where the government have in effect this - I do not know what we call it, it is not a local preference policy, a regional preference policy whatever; can the minister identify these areas, whether it is the Upper Salmon, the Cat Arrr 1 can the minister identify the areas where only tlie people that have been classified, have been identified for workers around that particular site or from a certain area? MR.SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice.

MR.OTTENHEIMER: Well, Mr. Speaker, first of all r do not think there is any question of classification or that, I do not think that is operative,but it would not come to my attention, you know, specific areas where employment generating activities are taking place and where the local requirements and needs of unemployment would be very, very high. You know, it really would not be something that would come specifically to my attention so for me to answer ~nything it would sort of be off the top of the head.

It would not be a specific infon ~ation that would come to my attention and that I would have readily available. MR.LUSH: MR.SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.LUSH: A supplementary. The han. member for Terra Nova. I wonder if the minister could undertake to provide the House with that information. I can.inform the minister that there is a local preference policy in effect on the Upper Salmon and I wonder if the minister can undertake to find out whether it is the government's policy to have this same vicious and insidious tl45~

/ July 9,1981 Tape No. 3184 ah-2 MR. LUSH: policy in effect with respect to development of the Cat Arrr.? If .. this is the policy 1 then the government should announce it and the people from Terra Nova, for example, would not waste their money by going to the project to try and get the jobs-and from other districts. This is happening day in and day out so maybe the government could announce those areas and infonn Newfoundlanders that rrobility rights do not exist in tmse places - SU"iE .t£N. J.'llFlYltlEt!S: Oh, oh! MR.SPEAKER (Simms): Order! MR. LUSH: ~ and that equal opportunity for employment does not exist.

MR.SPEAKER: MR. OTTENHED!ER: The hon. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, the ~on. member referred to some insidious policy and I wouTd not be in a position to provide him with details on any insidious policy because as every hon. member knows,both opposite and here,there would be no insidious policies being perpetrated by this government but only beneficial and enlightened and progressive ones. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER: member for Terra Nova. t-1R. LUSH: • Hear, hear! A final supplementary. A final supplementary. The hon. I wonder, Mr.

Speaker, since the government announced these regional policies,or . . . whatever we might call them,for people in certain areas, since that time I would expect the employment situation certainly changed in some of these areas in so much as the government's grants to some of these areas, water and sewer projects and road works and this sort of thing

whereas in the districts I am talking about U46n

I July 9, 1981 Tape 3185 EC - l MR. LUSH: none of · the.se things were granted, so in view of the circumstances where the preference was in effect in these areas and these people got capital ~o.Urks monies to do work, which is c·ertainly_ going to further help the employment situation, would the minister undertake to look into that situation and 1 in view of the changing employment situation, change that policy to allow people from areas that did not get =apital works projects to go to those areas and get work? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. OTTENHEIMER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr.

Speaker, as I understand it, the practice now,and the practice always has been,and a number of hon. members on the opposite side as well as on this side are aware of that, that obviously there is general mobility throughout Newfoundland and Labrador and, obviously, the principle of access to employment opportunities is operative.

I think all hon. members know that when in a specific area - and this is frequently in rural areas; I would not say exclusively, but frequently in rural areas­ there is a particular project requiring employment, tnen there is an expectation at that local level where there is very high unemployment that a considerable amount of the employment be given to people in that general area. It is not a question of exclusivity, but there is an expectation.

I think that is true of many areas, that .. there is an expectation and that people living in that area with such high unemployment will be given, if you wish, a kind of preference. Thatwas true in many, many areas when I represented the area now represented by the hon. gentleman from St. Mary's -The Capes (Mr. Hancock). I became quite familiar with it but never took the aspect of nobody but somebody from St. Mary's, but that there would be a recognition that in that area there was U461

I I ' ' July 9, 1981 Tape 3185 EC - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: high unempl_oyment, that the work was being done one or five or six miles from their area and that people quite understandably expected that a certain preference would be given. _fond this, indeed, has been the practice, not as an exclusive thing but as an inclusive thing. So I think the general policy and practice is clear and would be accepted by most hon. members, I think, on both sides of the House ·as being the general practice.

Now, with respect to an outline of various areas where the employment - and I th~nk the question really relates more to questions of manpower and employment, and it is not that I do not want to get the information, but I am sure if the han. the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) were asked, you know, something on the provincial course - he probably would not undertake to get it although it does not mean he could not get it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! MR.

OTTENHEIMER: But I would suggest that particularly with respect to manpower and employment that it does come more under the hon. gentleman. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. OTTENHEIMER: Well, I think I have probanly answered the gist of the question anyway, Sir. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor). 846?

July 9, 1981 MR. WARREN: ago. Tape 3185 EC - 3 He was .in his seat a few minutes ~461

I July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3186 SD - 1 MR. WARREN: in the absence of the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor),! would ask the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) in view of the fact that the Minister of Development announced a few days ago ·-that the government was willing to cost share up to $250,000 with Anaconda Aluminum Smelting Company to do a feasibility study into the aluminum industry in Newfoundland, could the Pie ·sident of the Council advise if there ·will be any ongoing talks with other alumin.urn smelting companies who are probably interested in setting up business in Newfoundland? MR.

SPEAKER (Simms: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, here comes the Minister of Development,so if the bon. member wants to · repeat his question it would be much more appropriate if he gets it from the Minister of Development. MR. SPEAKER: MR. WINDSOR: The hon. Minister of Development. Mr. Speaker I. r did ' not hear the question .·My colleague, the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn); tells me the question is: Will we be discussing with other companies - -~ TIRLING: How ~ ¥au be answeiin~ ~ question without hearing it? MR.

WINDSOR: Do hon. gentlemen want the answer to the question? MR. STAGG: Obviously not. MR. WI~D.SOR: I am assuming the question is that will we be having discussions with other companies, SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Oh, oh. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary,the hon. member for Yes, Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask the Minister of Development if the government of the day is planning to cost share up to $250,000 with Anaconda Aluminum Smelting Company to do a feasibility study in this Province.

Wila.ere does this leave the other aluminum smelting companies who the 8464

/ ··, I July 9, 1981 Tape NO. 2386 · SD - 2 MR. WARREN: minister and the Premier have been talking with the past two or three years? Have those aluminum companies shown no interest at all in setting up in the Province? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The han. Mini"E;ter of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, as I have told this han. House on numerous occasions, we have been carrying on discussions with a number of companies. ·They have displayed various amounts of interest in establishing a plant in our Province.

We have asked them, of course, to proceed with det~iled feasibility studies, engineering studies and so forth, Obviously _that is our objective. None have agreed to this point in time to put any financial commitment behind any kind of a study except Anaconda. And they have done' this at our requests and we are prepared to cost share it with them. We think it is in the best interest of our Province to cost sh .are in this particular study. It does not prec],ude the possibility that other companies may become involved in a smelter in our Province. We are simply doing a feasibility study ..

We have no commitment to Anaconda for any financing,as the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr, Stirling) tried to i_mply yesterday, of a pl,ant or any d.eals of any nature. We do not make deals 1. Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh, MR. WARREN; Fina l, supplementar y 1 Mr. . Speaker, MR, SPEJU(ER,: Final supplementary, the han. member far Torngat Mounta .±ns , MR .•. W~N: Mr.

Speaker, is this a present that is b~i~g sent by the govern,ment - if there is any other company that want~s to set up or is thinking about setting up an industry in Newfoundland or wantes to do a feasibility study on a major product 1 is the minister saying that,-if ' the company would come across and say,' Yes , we will cost share a feasibility stud y,' would the minister say ·,' Yes, okay 1 we will also cost .share with you ·r?· Is that the polic y of this government at the present time? 846S

_. ; ··· / July 9, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. WINDSOR: Tape No. 3187 GS - 1 Th~ hon . . Minister of Development. Mr. Speaker, it is a policy of this government to try to encourage development in our Province and to do what is necessary so-to do. If it appeared to government that another type of industr~ - and I think this is what the gentleman is getting at - other than aluminum, some other industry might be possible,i£ it required us to I::ecare inVolved on _a financial basis in order to attract that, then we have done it before. We could probably do it again.

Each issue would be assessed on ··its own merits. MR. SPEAKER: MR. STIRLING: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary dealing with that. same question. Do I unders.tand from the minister that they could not find anybody who would come in to do this kind of feasibility study and, in fact, that they had to offer $250,000 in order to develop any kind of interest? Do I understand from the minister that there has been no kind of an agreement signed, __ th~~- there have _been no guidelines set out, that there have no areas of the Province specified to be examined?

What basis are we putting up our $250,000 on? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I thought I made it clear yesterday in my statement to the House that we have established a committee, a working committee, of officials from the Department of Development and officials from the company who will be sitting down and putting together a firm agreement,which has not yet been signed now.

There is a firm understanding between the Premier and the president of that company - there were myself present, other officials of government and a number of senior people fr.om that department­ that a commitment is made on both parts to proceed with the study. The details have yet to be worked out but there is no 846R

.; ' I ' ' ' July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3187 GS - 2 MR. WINDSOR: question -in my mind at all that that study will indeed proceed and proce .ed with haste. MR. NEARY: )I'll{, E'LIGHT: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I yield. The hon. member yields. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, my supplementary to the hon. gentleman - and I am not quite sure - my colleague asked the question earlier and I am not quite sure if the hon. gentleman understood the question. Certainly I did not get the answer that - I did not comprehend the an5Wer that he gave.

I would like to ask the question more directly. Is the hon. gentleman saying that it was this government who approached the aluminum companies, Anaconda, and made them the offer of sharing the feasibility study to see if it was profitable for them to come into Newfoundland to make their fortune? Was it the government who approached them and made the offer or did they request a cost-shared project? Would the hon. gentleman tell the House that? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, it takes two to tango and it ~akes two to make an agreement.

As the hon. gentleman is aware, the Premier and I went to Kentucky, to Louisville, Kentucky, about a month ago to meet with senior officials of the company and, as a result of those discussions, there was an ag~~ement made that we would cost-share a study on these sites. MR. NEARY: A further supplementary, Mr.Speaker. MR. ·FLIGHT: I yield. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans wishes to yield. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman is being very evasive, Mr. Speaker, about his answer. It is just a simple yes or no answer. Did the government make " the offer to Anaconda? 8467

/ I ·i / July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3187 GS - 3 MR. NEARY: And how many more companies - to make the question a new question - how many more companies - because the ·government is embarking upon a new policy unprecedented in the whole of Canada. In any other pr .oyince of Canada it tJ46A

July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3188 IB-1 MR. NEARY: is unprecedented where government would pay for a feasibility study to see if it is feasible for companies to come in and make their fortune in Newfoundland. All the smears they have made at Mr. Smallwood ·, that was something he never, ever did. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: No, never did it, Mr. Speaker. They can laugh all they like. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): Order, please! MR. NEARY: It is unheard of and unprecedented. MR. SPEAKER: Order! MR .. NEARY: Now, a simple yes or no answer. Did the government make the offer to Anaconda?

How many more companies have been offered the same privilege? Was the same opportunity offered to Aluminum Company of Canada,for instance? Or was it the reverse, did" Anaconda say, 'Well, if you want us to come in,tell us how much you are prepared to pay to show us it is profitable in there'? Yes or no. Did the government make the offer? Did Anaconda make the offer? And how many more companies have been offered the same privilege? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman is right on one thing, that they did not do this sort of a thing on many developments that were undertaken ander their administration programmes. Those developments were undertaken without proper information, without proper study. There will not be any giveaways in this case, Mr. Speaker. We will know what the feasibility is - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. WINDSOR: - and industry will proceed if it is feasible· so to do. tf4 6 ~ .... . i

., ... , .· .. / I I I July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3188 IB-2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER {SIMMS) : SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. WINDSOR: Oh, oh! Order, please! Oh, oh! Order, please! Order! So as I said, Mr. Speaker, the agreement was made as a result of negotiations. Who actually said first will_yqu do it,or we will not do it if you do not do that,or we will do that if you· will do this, I do not kno~, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON . _MEMBERS : MR. WINDSOR: It is a result of negotiations. 0~, oh! _'!'h_e_ b,on. gentleman obv_j,c;>Usly does not understand what negotiations mean. MR.

SPEAKER: The qon. member for Windsor- Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question-if I can get the Minister o'f Finance's attention. I will wait for him _- and it is with reqard to the statement yesterday with the giving over of the refinery at Come by Chance to Petro~canada. In the letter of intent - I presume we can refer to it - the letter of intent of Petro-Canada dated November 20, 1980, less than six months ago, Petro-Canada indicate& - and they were very negative I think in that letter-as to their ability to ever rehabilitating the refinery.

One paragraph - and it is the key paragraph, I think - is that, •assuming we do not at the time of purchase have a commercially viable plan for the rehabilitation of the refinery, we will th~n_ remothball the refinery for a period of time.' Those are the key words, I think,they are prepared for not having a viable plan for the rehabilitation of the refinery,they will remothball the refinery for a period of time.' Could the minister indicate to the House as a result of the sale yesterday, and obviously this would have had to be negotiated, would the minister indicate what period of time we are talking about?

What period of time is Petro-Canada talking about inasfar as they are tl47n

I July 9, 1981 MR. FLIGHT: plant? !;{R. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : Tape No. 3l 88 . IB-3 prepared:·to remothball the The .hoil. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I am not quite sure of the import of the little

preamble .. the hon. metnber made there when he said, 'Giving over the refinery'. I presume he did not mean the Province giving over the r~finery because the Province does not own the refinery. That is owned by someone else. So the Province certainly did not give it away. MR. FLIGBT: It put $50 million in it though. 8471

. ' . July 9, 1981 SOME HONr MEMBERS; MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : DR.COLLINS: MR. LUSH: DR. COLLINS: Tape No. 3189 EL - 1 Oh, oh! Order, please! In regard to.- Keep them working, boy. In regard to mothballing, hon. mem- bers will recall that PetroCanada did s.ome investigations. When those investigation~ were completed and they were sa'tisfied there­ fore that it was technically feasible to rehabilitate, they re- mothballed at that stage and that was some time ago, perhaps six months ago, that sort of time ago.

And the plant has remained moth- balled since that time and it is still mothballed and the intention is that PetroCanada will continue their investigations, presumably and hopefully at an accelerated pace aimed at rehabilitating. How long that would take, I have no way-of knowing,~nd until they have reached a conclusion on their ability to rehabilitate and reacti- vate, the plant will remain mothballed, and remain mothballed at PetroCanada's total expense. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, either PetroCanada, hasa viable plan to rehabilitate the plant or they do not, And one of their conditions, on November 20th, was that" assuming t:1at ,.,e do not at the time of purchase· SO tne N minister must know, at the time of purchase"was yesterday, "whether we do not .,t the time of purchase, have a commercially viable plan. 11 Now, they either have a nl;,.n or they have not got a plan. They then go on to say that" if w=do not have a viable plan, we will rerrothball the refinery from the date of purchase for a period of time.'' So, Mr. Speaker, it is simple.

Two questions: Do they have a viable plan to I / I 847?

July 9, 1"981 Tape No. 3189- EL - 2 MR. FLIGHT: rehabilitate the plant and 1if not, what period of time are they talking about that they are prepared tore-mothball the plant before they sell it . to a third party as they go on to say they will do if they canrrot rehabilitate the plant~ Now, do they have a viable plan to rehabilitate and,if not,how long a period of time are they prepared to mothball? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Finance has twenty seconds in which to answer. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is asking a question that I cannot answer. That is_ a very technical question.

They point about running a refinery is something that reaches into the highest aspects of business management. It re­ lates to so many things , it relates to markets, . it relates to availibility of crude, it relates to price of crude., it rela~ to the cost of refining - ~ .!:iON. ME:IlBERS: ¥R_.SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: of material and so on. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: tions has expired. Oh, oh! Order, please! - it relates to the availibility Oh, oh! Order,please! I am sorry 1 the time for Oral Ques- I would ask hon. members to joing me in welcoming some distinguished visitors to the Gallery today.

Firt of all, we have Mayor Earl Cuff of the town of -~usgrave Har­ bour in the district of Fogo who is seated in the Speaker's Gallery: Welcome. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: And also in the Gallery, we have Councillor Gus Kerwin, from the Deer Lake town council in the dis­ trict of Humber Valley. / I 8 4 7 .i

July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3189 EL-3 SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, !J..ear! PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER(Simrns}: The hon. the Minister of Develop- ment. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, in keeping with this government's tradition of providing information to the people of the Province and particularly to the hon •. members of the House, I would like to table a number of annual reports. First of all, - MR. STIRLING: quired by legislation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. WINDSOR: reports, Mr. Speaker, are - MR. SPEAKER: MR. WINDSOR: You have no choice. You are re- Hear, hear!

I point out that not all of these Order, please! - required by legislation. And, in fact this first one cert~inly is not. It is the first annual report - and probably the last because the department has changed, of the Department of Industrial Development, now, of course, the Depart­ ment of Development for the year '79-'80. SOME HON. ME!>1BERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: MR. WINDSOR: Order, please! Order! Order! Order! Mr. Speaker, the han. gentlemen do not want information today. I table the report, the annual re­ port for the year 1979-80 of NORDCO. MR. STIRLING: Required by regulation. .. MR.

WINDSOR: I table the annual report of the year '79 - '80 for the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corp­ oration ... MR. STIRLING: It is required by law. 8474 I

/ July 9, 1981 Tape 3190 PK - 1 MR. WINDSOR: I tabl~ the report for the year 1979-1980 of the Labrador West Economic Development Association, which is doing a tremendous job in Labrador. ·- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR: I table as well for the year 1979-1980 the report of ,the Gander Development Corporation, ~hich is doing a magnificent job in Central Newfoundland. I table the report for the year 1979-1980 of the Board of Directors of Newfoundl.:tnd Institute For Management, Advancement And Training. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

WINDSOR: And I table the report for the year 1979-1980 of the Harmon Corporation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ANDREWS : A great thing. MR. WINDSOR: And there is one more; I also table, Mr. Speaker, the annual report for the 1979-1980 of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. WINDSOR: MR. NEARY: order. Hear, hear! Talk about inforn :a tion, 1\ll.r. Speaker. 0 0 0 Mr. Speaker, on a point of MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised by the hon. member for LaPoile • .. ' MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, about seventy-odd written questions have been on the Order Paper now since Februar-y and March - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: provided yet. MR. SPEAKER: / tl47~ Oh, oh! Order, please! Order~ - and no answers have been Order, oleaS'e!

I July 9, 1981 MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. NEARY: Tape 3190 PK - 2 Mr. Speaker,- ·could Your Honour tell us - Oh, oh! Order, please! - whether or n6t ministers - MR. SPEAKER: Well ',the hon. member, being a veteran of this House,is fully aware of the rules and the rules say that the ministers may answer questions if they wish, or they may not whatever. But this certainly does not constitute - we have many, many precedents - this does not constitute a point of order. MR. HISCOCK: information ·. MR. NEARY: written questions? MR. HISCOCK: that is how. MR. SPEAKER: continuing debate.

A very open administration - no How do we get the answers to these No answers. We win the government, ORDERS OF THE DAY Second reading, Bill No. 43, Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's Act". (Bill No. 43). The debate was adjourned by the hon.member for LaPoile,whohad spoken for twelve minutes. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the people of this Province are so fed up with everything being concentrated in St. John's that I am not going to delay the passage of this bill at all.

I think in the interest of trying to get something done in the rural parts of this Province,we have heard enough chaw now about the city of St. John's. It is time to get - SOME HON.· MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Oh, oh! Order ! - these bills through and do something for the outports, the rural parts of this Province. IJ47R

/ I I / July 9, 1981 Tape 31:30 PK - 3 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please~ Did the hon. President of the Council- introduce the Bill? MR. MARSHALL: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) speaks now he will clese the debate. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I will agree it is time to make progress,but the city of St. John's is important and there were certain things th?-t were said - MR. STIRLING: That is why you give them a token. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

MARSHALL: Now there were certain things that were said yesterday,including the allegation of lack of consultation 1 that I want to deal with. And we will deal with that first because that was mentioned by the 'Leader of the Opposition. Now this time of the day,I do not think it is very wise perhaps to get into a too spirited aebate,but all I can say about the Leader of the Opposition's comments yesterday ; the only way to describe them 1really , Mr. Speaker, was shallow and transparent because they had, Mr.

Speaker, a transparency about them that we could see as you can see with a lot of statements the hon. gentleman has made. MR. STIRLING: You did not consult them. MR. MARSHALL: Now on consultation, Mr. Speaker; there was - if we did not consult the City Council, and if it was only yesterday that City Council were supposed to have. s.een the bill, how come approximately a week or· ten days ago I "got a call from a city councillor asking me when the bills that were up before the House were going to get passed by the House or when they were going to be dealt with because tee councillor, Mr.

Speaker, was somewhat afraid that some of the items that we had which could touch ~pon the next t3477

/ July 9, 1981 Tape 3190 PK - 4 MR. MARSHALL: election may. not get through. But I as.sured that this government, as it always is ,is prepared for these types of eventualities. So that is the first th.ing . The second thing - MB STIRLING: That has nothing to do with (inau<!l.ible) . MR. MARSHALL: BecaQ.se the bon. g;entleroan says . we did not discus .s · ~ t does not mean, you know, despi~7 the fact that the - MR. STIRLINC::: . (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, · please! MR.

MARSHALL: - the morning paper this morning takes the bon. gentleman's word as gospel, the editor of the morning paper, or the publisher is about the o~ly one in ~ewfo~dland who does - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: Hear, hear! - and it 847A

/ July 9,1981 Tape No. 3191 ah-l MR. MARSHALL: does not make it , Mr.Speaker, because the hon. gentleman says 'that we did not consult, does not mean that we did not consult. SQME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, at least two or three months ago,and going even further back,officials of the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing .were consulting with officials of the city of St.

John's, with senior officials of the city of St. ,Tohn 's and if , if, if - and I say, if; I am not say·ing- th"lt :Lt i~ a fact because, as I say,if the hon.Leader of the Onposition says something, it does not make it a fact- if a councillor had the impression,or more than one councillor had the impression that there nad neen no consultation with the city of St. John's,I would suggest that that is their problem and that they should consult the machinery within the city of St.

John's itself,because each and every item in these bills, these bills that come before the House, that each and every item in all of these bills - MR. STIRLING: Are you specifically saying tnat you consulted on. MR. MARSHALL: - the two bills that passed yesterday, the one other consideration and the other two bills that will come before this House, Mr.Speaker, were matters that were discussed and discussed in detail between officials of the government and officials of the municipal council. MR. STIRLING: They were agreed to yesterday. MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr.

Speaker, yesterday, for example,to show the type of consultation, yesterday, while we were introducing this motion,there was a request made by the city council that we change the format with respect to the possible expansion of city councillors. 847q

July 9,1981 Tape No. 3191 ah-2 MR. MARSHALL: placed in the bill - MR. STIRLING: That ·p.r.oves you nad not consulted before. MR.SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: What had been faced in the bill, . Mr. Speaker, had been that the council would automatically expand from eight to ten members.

Yesterday city council carne in and requested that instead of it bei::J.g rJandatory that it be enabling in natu:ce so that it may go from eight to ten members, and we in conforrni ty wi t'1_ our policy of consulting with persons and groups that are a:t:tectea by the legislation, are qoing to do just that and;: as I say,we will be leading that in when the committee comes in. So that is the first thing, Mr. Speaker. And the other thing is with respect to the lands, the Crown lands being reserved; there is a very good reason for that as well.

Maybe some people in council do not agree with it, that I do not knov :; some of them may and some of them may not, but the fact of the matter is that - MR. STIRLING: MR. MARSHALL: Yesterday you said thev aqreeq. But the fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that in connection with the extension of the boundaries 1there are certqin lands,particularly around the airport 1 which are Crown lands vested in the Province that the Province has to retain ownership and control of, and if Y?~ did n?t put that in then the city council would have the ownership and control.

One or two other points that were made that rer'~;ire answering ,and this is with respect to the Court of Revision. The member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) , Mr. Speaker, when he was speaking asked 1.-rhy the right to exempt or reduce taxes owing by bXUqent persons was not given to the Court of·Revision.I can answer that. The Court of Revision is not considered the appropriate body to hear this type of concern,and in all municipalities such appeals are heard by the council and it is much more t:l4Rn

I July 9,1981 Tape No. 3191 ah-3 MR. MARSHALL: fitting and appropriate that co .uncil should hear that type of representat -ion and pass upon it than a non-elected group of appointees _in the Court of Revision. So, Mr. Speaker, I think that answers most o.f the things. The hon. member for LaPerle (Mr .Neary) asked about the Powell Commission. I answered tttat when I introduced the bill,that as the universe will unfurl in time, in adequate time so the Powell Commission will be made public and the reaction of the government with respect to what is rro.i. n~ tro cn ·1~ onr. of it. MR.THOMS: · MR. MARSHALL: MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): ~. T;HQMS: clause that was rep .ealed COuld -I ask. just ·a brief question? You want to ask a question? The hon.member: for Grand BaT~!~. When. referring to:. the inii.gent ~481

I July 9, 1981 Tape 3192 EC - 1 MR. THOMS: from the·old act, I referred to the new one, the new Clause 5 in that particular act which gives council the authority to defer taxes. And my question at that time was whethe:t: or not council would now have the authority to forgive as well as defer taxes, because under the old clause they did have the a~thority to forgive rather than just defer. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Well,·what it is there, Mr.Speaker, it is 'defer', but I think now- I stand subject to correction, as I am at all times.

I do not mind being corrected, Mr. Speaker, if the person who .is correcting me is repeating fact; if he is repeating fiction it is a different thing altogether ·. But it is my understanding that there are other provisions in the act that give this particular power, but if there are not those provisions, the ~oint is very well taken by the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thorns) and we will certainly look into it because it certainly should be done. The whole point of the matter is that those considerations, we consider, are considerations for the council itself. Having said that, Mr.

Speaker, not wishing to dwell - I could get up and I could rant and roar and I could tear into, particularly, the remarks made by the Leader of the Opposition with respect to it, ·because I want to underscore this fact, that these bills that come up from the City Council, not just these bills but any bills pertaining to municipalities or any bills pertaining to public bodies are'not _passed without there having been consultation with the persons affected. MR; STIRLING: ·Get an aqreement? U48?

July 9, 1981 Tape 3192 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Now .the hon. gentleman sa ys 'and agre~ent'. Now, without consultation with the people concerned - and we have had substantial agreement, as the hon. gent£eman there knows, as with any group of people but particularly with the City Council here present now, it is not an everyday occurrence, let us put it that way, that there is Unaninous ·agree:rrent imo~st ill city couriCillors. But we get a consensus, Mr. Speaker, we consult and we get a =8nsensus and we make a decision.

And the hon. gentleman says' · yo1.,1 kno ~ , 'Do you get agreement?' No, you do not get agreement. You cannot get agreement from every single individual because that is part of the pro­ vision of governing the Province, Mr. Speaker, we have to 'take measures not just as pertain to the individual interest of one group but as are best for the overall interests of all of the Province. Having said that 1 and having indicated very strongly that there has been full consultation and underlining that, I move second reading. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Is it the pleasure of the House that the bill be now read a second time?

Those in favour 'Aye' - MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order? MR. STIRLING: Regardless of what the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) - MR .' SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order cannot be raised w~ile a vote is being taken. We will have to conduct the vote and then I will hear the point of order. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 43). ~ 4 B .1

I July 9, 1981 Tape 3192 EC - 3 MR. MAESHALL : Order 18 , -~~11 No . 36. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Bill No. 36, second reading of a bill, "An Act To AIIlend The .Highway Traffic Act". The debate was adjourned by ·the hon.~ the melt)ber for the Strtit of Belle Isle, who did not speak but just adjourned the debate. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you,_ Mr. Spe~er. I am grateful to my learned and hon. friend from St. John's E.ast (Mr. MarshalJ.} for calling it at this time because. th·at will enable me to carry on with some more of my district phone calls when we finish. I wou1d like to make one or two points in connection with this bill, Mr. Speaker, some U48l

I / July 9,1981 Tape No. 3193 IB-1 MR. ROBERTS: of which has been touched upon by those of my colleagues who have spoken but which I wou1d like to repeat,not for the sake of delay but simply because ~yer the last three or four years since I have been doing some - MR. YOUNG: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: The hon. member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young) apparently is having an attack of some sort. MR. NEARY: He .. is .going .out to check on the motorcycles. MR. ROBERTS: And I would hope it works out well for him, whatever he is up to.

The point I was making before my friend from Harbour Grace erupted himself in whatever way he did,was that the last three or four years I have had some experience from another aspect of the legislative process of ·working with some of the legislation, and without being dramatic · ± _want to say one or two things to the minister. And when my colleague from Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms)finishes with the minister I can carry on because I would like to get the minister's attention, and the minister,unlike most of us 1 c~nn9.~ ~arry on two conversations at once.

So when my friend from Grand Bank is ready to permit me to carry on,I shall. MR. FLIGHT: The minister cannot walk and chew gum at the same time. MR. ROBERTS: That is not the way the original phrase goes, Hr. Speaker, the original phrase, which P.:;:esident Johnson used to describe then Speaker Ford, then - whatever he wa!"- Vice-President Ford 1after President Ford,was most unparliamentary. The general gist of it, as my friend from Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) says, was you could not do two things at once. Now, if my friend from Grand / Bank is ready to let me carry on,I will. tl4B~

July 9,1981 Tape No. 3:!-93 IB-2 MR. THOMS: G9 ahead .• MR. ROBERTS: Okay, thank you. I simply want to say to the minister - MR. THOMS: I was just_ trying to talk about my district. MR. ROBERTS: Well, I appreciate that and I wish my friend from Grand Bank more success than I have had with the minister with respect tomine. I have no doubt hehas, I have no doubt he has. MR. THOMS: But · I am nice. MR. ROBERTS: And I 'I'Till tell you, if that is the price then I will not pay i~ and I will be glad not to pay it.

I have always felt the minister should approach his duties on the basis of what is right and proper as opposed to any personal likes or dislikes in which he may wish to indulge. Now the point I am making - MR. THOMS: There is nobody safe from that biting tongue. MR. ROBERTS: The point I am making, Mr. Speaker, has to do with this question of compulsory insurance. And we have compulsory insurance in this Province by virtue of legislative fist. But the minister I am sure realizes that we do not have compulsory insurance in this Province.

And I want to say to him today that I think this not only a very serious omission in the laws of this Province,but I think it is a completely unnecessary one. And I will teLl the min~ster - I cannot reveal details of any particular matter I may have worked on - but my friend from Kilbride (Mr. Aylward) is in his seat and he may remember recently there was a very serious accident before Christmas out on the Southern Shore road. He may or may not be familiar with it. Just so the minister knows how 'the compulsory insurance works, one of the persons involved in that accident B4BR

/ July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3193 IB-3 MR . ROBERTS: and the "ininister is very studiously ignoring me 1 which may or may not be di_scourteous of him but I am perfectly serious - there Was an accident, a very serious one on the Southern Shore road,not far from St. John's,in which one person :Lost _h~ life, in which another one was grievously injured. Some criminal charges have been laid. All that is a matter of · public record. What is also a nta.tter of public record is that one of the drivers involved in that accident had no insurance at all.' Ah ha!

I· am told,'~ut he has to have insurance before he can get his license.' And sure enough if the minister takes the time :to go to the Moj:or Registry or to send f~r his official, 't.he registrar, a most competent official, Mr. Haire,and ask him the name of this person 1 which I will give to the minister outside ' the House · if he wishes 1 he will discove .r that when that gentleman appl:i,ed for his annual motor vehicle license he did in fact fill in the space on the blank which says, "Provide the name of your insurance company" and "Provide the number of your policy" t34B7

' I July 9, 1981, Tape 1394, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: '.Provide the name or the number of your policy.' Now,whether the applicant knew it or not, there is no check made on that and in this particular case he had filled in the __ name of an entirely different person. Furthermore, if any check at all was made, as one has subsequently been made, it would have been discovered that this par.ticular gentleman, in the course o~ the nine months, since the 1st.' day of April 1981 - I am sorry, the 1st. day of April 1980.

The accident was around Christmasti'me so it was about nine months - had held no less than three different public liability insurance policies and had cancelled each and every one of them. Ha .d cancelled each and . every one of the. Now, I have never been able to understand why the government does :x>t require the insuran~e companies to take the very simple step that would obviate the problem; the very simple step is to require the insurance companies to notify the Resigtrar of Motor Vehicles whenever an insurance policy is cancelled. MR. STIRLING: That is what they had to do under the original legislation.

But there were so many cancellations that the Registrar said he could not handle it and they changed it. MR. ROBERTS: Well, my friend from Bonavista North, the Leader of the Opposition(Mr. Stirling), who, before he became Opposition Leader was very prominently involved with the insurance industry, tells me that that originally was required, bl,lt there were so many cancellations that the Registrar could not keep up with ·it. MR. STIRLING: legislation. !:14BA And they changed the

I ' / July 9, 1981, Tape 1394, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: A~q the legislation was changed and the companies are no longer required. Well, I know the Registrar's division is a very busy 9ne, I also know it is a very efficient and a very effective division. And I cannot think of any valid reason, given the immense number of bodies we have on the public payroll, ,why we cannot find enough, or,if need be, add one or two or three more, to keep up with this. You see, I will tell you what happens, Mr.

Speaker: .we have driving around this Province today - if the proportion is, 'Len', 5 per cent of drivers; again, if I can get the attention of my friend the Leader of the Opposition(Mr. Stirling), is it 5 per cent of drivers who are uninsured, as a guesstimate? MR. STIRLING: There is a great deal of them. MR. ROBERTS: Well, let us take it at 1 per cent, and we have in the Province about 250,000 licenced drivers MR. STIRLING: The government estimates 10 per cent. MR. ROBERTS: The government says 10 per cent. Well, let me split it down the middle, between 1 and 10 and the middle is 5.5, we will call it 5 per cent.

We have, at 250,000 drivers in this Province today, 12,500 who are not insured. And if anyone of us tonight sh?uld have the ill-fortune to be run into by 'one of th 'ese ladies or gentlemen, not only have we got the pain and tne suffering and the trauma and whatever may occur from the accident we have the additional satisfaction of knowing that the financial recompense is limited to $75,000 which, of course, is the limit ~hat the judgement recovery process, the unsatisfied judgement process provides. 848~

/ July 9, 1981, Tape 1394 , Page 3 -- apb _ MR. ROBERTS: · No.w~ Mr. Speaker, that may sound like a lot of money, $75,000. The hospital bills in this case to which I refer come to over $45,000 1 which the ·government will collect back. · So in .. effect; then, there .is available, in the set of circumstances that I have out­ lined, less than $30,000 to compensate the people who have been injured through an accident . in which they had no fault at all. And I say tnat as an «:>pinion, I cannot say it as a-conclusion of law, i::ut I think it is a good opinion.

So the · result is that in this one case, because the government are so slack, and because they neglect to hire the extra staff that ~uld be neces~ary to enable a very simpie administrative 84Sn

,• July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3195 . SD - 1 MR. ROBERTS: step to be take, namely, to enter an notification that John Jones had cancelled his public liabilit y insurance and then to pass that to the authorities to follow up on it, because of that we have a situation where every year . in this Province hundreds of people,who are involved in accidents to which they are not at fault or are only in part at fault,are denied the compensation which the law gives them. Now I want to say to the minister that I do not think that is good enough. ·I realize the minister is a prisoner - what is that noise, Mr. Speaker? MR.

CARTER: The .hon, member has -a scratch in his throat. MR. ROBERTS: Well I would rather have a scratch in ~y throat then be scratching where the hon. member for St .. John's North (Mr. Carter) usually scratches. SOME HON. MEMBERS : It is the intercom. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: Well 1 I wonder if perha,p~- .W~ can arrange to have the intercom s checked. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I will arrange the tape and sound operator check into that. Is it okay now ·? It is okay. MR. ROBERTS: Are we okay now? Have we overcome the technical difficulties? _ MR. SPEAKER: Yes. MR.

ROBERTS: - ~MR~-BARRETT i. ~o~d,because r wan~ ·~he priceless words- · ~~ -n.audiblel • .. ~ ·- ~ MR.. ROBER-TS; I camiot overcome "the diff i"cultl:es · of the qe~tieman. from st, John's West(Mr. Barrett)_ l;lut they are geneti~ and not technical, Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not want to belabour the . point ,but I do want to be sure it is clearly made. Because what obtains is this, because of th i.s failure by the government to take what is a very simple ad ministrative step, hundreds of people are being denied the compensation which U491

.. ' July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3195 · so - 2 MR. ROBERTS: they ·are entitled by th~ law. Compensation cannot replace the pain and the suffering,, money cannot replace the lady who was killed in the accident to which I refer. MR. CARTER: WOuld -the bOn .~ trelriJer·-~:rrn.i:t a serious question? MR. ROBERTS: Yes, I most certainly would be glad to. MR. SPEAJ<ER {_Simms) : The hon. member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the member for the Straits of Belle Isle (Nr. Roberts) has said that this problem of reporting cancelled insurances ' can be overcome by a very simple administrative , step.

I· am given to unders ·tand that it a very difficult administrative step and I would like h±m to comment on that. MR. SPEAKER: The non. member for the Straits of Belle Isle. MR. . ROBERTS: Wel.l I do not clai .m to be an expert in the adminis·tration of the Motor Vehicle D.ivis±on, MVD, whatever it is called, but it. is, I suggest to the member from St..

John's North CM .r, Carter} a very simple administrative step which consists of this~ There is a computerized; fi-le ovel:' there in the registry,or there i:s a terminal t,hat. gives access to· a computerized file, that has on it information about every licenced driver in this Province - correct? AN HON. MEMBER: Yes. MR. ROBERTS: That is correct.

I mean, all you do --.1~ :· ~·o~k -~t- , your - I do not have mine on me at this moment - but look at your driver's licence and equally there is one for e'verv vehicle, and it is a very simple matter if a form comes ---_In ·fr .6rn -:_,ap insurance company, let us call it the Carter and Roberts Insurance Company Limited - there is · a name that would inspire confidence in the average homeowner - Carter and Roberts Insurance Company sends a notification - Extraneous Noise 8 Lf 9! I

July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3196 EL - 1 MR. NEARY: There, you have done it again. MR. ROBERTS: Done it again. I did not mention the name of the gentleman from St. John's North (J.Carter) and he insists on doing it again. The Carter and Roberts Insurance Company sends a notice into the Registrar of Motor Vehicles which says, 'Please be advised that Jack Smith has caacelled his insur­ ance policy, number 678523.' MR. NEARY: So they cancel hi$ licence? MR. ROBERTS: No, no that is step one. Step two is that must then be entered on the computer. Right? It is fairly simple.

Step three, somebody has to pick up the phone and call Jack Jones and say, "Where is your insurance policy? And that to me is not difficult. Now, 'it requi!~s, -in due course, a policeman to go or somebody to go and take his plates. But, by heavens, if a man is driving around without insurance, sUrely w:e _ shoui?- take his plates. It is a condition of drivinq. And I think that is a fairly simple administrative procedure. And I think anyb<:J: dy . the -i~ast bit involved in the insurance industry,and my friend from ~t.

John's North has ~ad a distinguished career in the insurance industry, will agree that this problem is a huge one. The drivers who cancel as often as not are exactly the kind who want to be carrying in- surance because I would think their accident record is well beyond that. And this particular gentleman to whom I refer,who put in somebody elses name and then had three other policies 'and cancellations in the year, has a driving record, you know, a record of violations as long as my arm. MR. CARTER: It is because their insurance is high that they cancel out. MR. ROBERTS: Well, because they - yes, they may tl49~ I

I July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3196 El - 2 MR. ROBERTS: do it · just to save their money and they may do it because they do not think the rules apply to them. MR. CARTER: Or it may be beyond their means because they MR. ROBERTS: If it is beyond their means, then I question whether they should be driving because their insurance rate is high MR. CARTER: They have put themselves MR. ROBERTS: -because they are in a category that does that. And they are time-bomb~. · · · MR. CARTER: Yes, sure they are. MR •.

ROBERTS: And, you know, I know an individual case does not in itself make a law, but I have just given one example and I can find many more from my own knowledge and my friend from St. John's North (Mr. Carteri before he became an exeeutive and was doing insurance work, day by day, sure has hundreds and hundreds of them. MR. STIRLING: St. John's West. MR. ROBERTS: St. John's West (Mr. Barrettl, I am sorry. I have done a disservice to both St. John's North and St. John's West. I apologize humbly to both constituencies. But the fact remains it is a very simple step. This bill touches on it.

We are now going to make available under the

Section 192, we are going to make available the nam~ ~nd adgress of the insurance. That is fine, but that is not enough. We should put into place a procedure to ensure that - either that or forget the co~pulsory insurance. Why have it if we are going to make it stick? Why have speeding laws if we do not tl494

July 9, 1981 Tape 3197 EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: try to make them stick': ' Why have laws prohibiting driving while drunk if we do not try to make them stick?

Yet we have a law that says you must have _insurance and that law is being broken continuously and continually and often and a day, and is being broken, furthermore, by the very people from whom the average dri~er ought to be protected, because I w'?uld wager that if we could get the numbers and study them out, the people who cancel their insurance are by far and away far more likely to be involved in a serious accident than the people who buy their insurance and who carry it on. Let me make anothe .r point growing out of that.

The $75,000 limit, I would say to the minister - and I know it is not specifically in this bill, but it falls within the Highway Tra~fic Act - that limit is too low. It may have been high enough­ it was originally $35,000; it was $35;000 for a number of years- and when the present Chief Justice of the Trial Division, Mr. Hickman, was the Minister of Justice t~.,r o or three or four years ago 1it was raised to$75,000. It is not nearly enough.

The hospital bills in this Province to~ay are averaging about $325 a day for general care, so if you are in the hospital for 200 days, you have used up near enough to the $75,000 which is either the minimum that is required - and a lot of people are carrying the ·m~nimum - or it is what is available from the judgement recovery process, the so-called unsatisfied judgement fund. MR. BARRETT: If I may interrupt you there - MR. ROBERTS: My friend from St. John's West. MR. BARRETT: If I could , make an observation as to why (inaudible) $75,000 (inaudible) 843S

/ July 9, 1981 Tape 3197 EC - 2 MR. BARRETT : highest -limits of any jurisdiction in Canada. MR. ROBERTS: One of the highest? MR. BARRETT: Yes, one of.~he highest. MR. ROBERTS: Well, that just shows they are all wrong. I mean, $75,000 is not very much. MR. BARRETT: I agree. MR. ROBERTS: And furthermore, my friend from St. John's West (Mr. Barrett) will confirm that the cost in a premium between $75 100~ and $150,000 is very little. MR. BARRETT : Very little, MR. ROBERTS: You know, if it costs $300 to insure a given driver for $75,000, it might only cost $320 to insure him for $150,000.

But I will tell you, it is cheap on that end. MR. HOLLETT: Seven dollars for (inaudible) • MR. ROBERTS: My friend from Burin - Placentia West says that the cost,maybe in his case of a careful student driver,is $7 for an extra $300,000 in public liability coverage. I would say to the minister that it is cheap from that end, and it does not cost the government anything anyway; in fact, the government gets eleven cents on the dollar because we tax insurance pr.el!liurns ~n this Province, the only province in which we tax them.

So the minister could say he is raising money and thereby he can afford not only to pave Mount Scio H0.use but to pave the roads that the people in my district must ~se every day to get back and forth to work and to school and to hospital. But the fact remains that when you are on the other end of it, it makes a big difference, and if the minister tonight had the misfortune, which tl49R

I I ' t July 9, 1981 Tape 3197 EC - 3 MR. ROBERTS: I devoutly _pray he does not have, to run into one of these drunken fools driving these time bombs around this Province, 8497

I July 9, 1981, Tape 3198, Page l -- apb _ MR. ROBERTS: and it turns out that he is grieviously injured, and it is n~ trouble to run up a claim, a valid claim of a couple of hundred throusand dollar~ and the minister, or his widown, if that be the case, if forced to settle for $75,000, the~, you know, we begin to see the other side of it. And, yet, that happens every day; it happens every day in this Province and it happens unnecessarily.

So all I want to say \vi th respect to these aspects of this bill is that I can conceive of no valid reason why we should not rai~~ t~~ level, and insurance rates are regulated , you know it anyone thinks the insurance companies are going to rip off 1 they all lost money last year. In fact, in Ontario they are going up 30 per cent and 40 per cent.

And the regulatory authorities have approved it because they lost so much money last year - t.nere is no valid reason why we should not raise the level to at least $100,000 or $150,000, and,secondly, there is no valid reason why we should not require the insurance companies to notify the Registrar of Motor Vehicles whenever a public liability policy is cancelled. MR. BARRETT: to do that. MR. ROBERTS: They are quite prepared My friend from St. John's West(Mr. Barrett) says they are quite prepared to do that and I understand the same. MR.· YOUNG: Some insurance companies will not sell less than $100,000. MR.

ROBERTS: Well, my .friend from Harbour Grace(Mr. Young) says some companies do not sell less than $100,000, and,I mean, I do not find that offensive. I see no reason at all why we should not require even more, because given $300 a day for hospital IJ49R

I July 9, 1981, Tape 3198, Page 2 -- ap~ MR. ROBERTS: · bills - now I know the Health Department occasionally will back off and not press its claim to allow something, you know, for the other legitimate claims within the package, but that means we,the taxpayers,absorb all the costs then because the hospital bills have to be paid. It. is not uncommon, Mr. Speaker, I assure you and han. members, to see hospital and medical accounts now $25,000 and $30,000. You do not have to be all that grievious ·ly injured before the tab runs up to that kind of money.

The most recent one I saw, I think it was for the Health Science Centre, $318 a day is the rate at which t~e hospital care is being charged out and that, presumably, is a true cost of providing that service. So I would say to the minister that these are two things for which there are compelling reasons to do them and no valid reason against them.

The administrative difficulties, I do not think, a~e even difficult let alone insuperable, and when weighed against what it means to people .- we all use the roads, we all use them constantly, we mus·t all use them constantly,and that means there are going to be accidents. and the accident that concerns me is not the one that I cause to myself, because I am responsible for that, what I am worried about is driving out the road some evening - and in every accident there is at least one person at fault, sometimes more than one but at least one, and I simply come back to the example with which I began, the man and his wife who were coming horne from a Christmas party and driving out the Southern Shore road before Christmas - well, the gentleman is charged criminally and he is not the gentleman who cancelled the policy so 848~

I July 9, 1981, Tape -3198, Page 3 - - apb ~. ROBE:RTS: . I am not talking of his - but another young gentleman came up the road at some speed - so as not to prejudice _ the case before the courts, or not to deal with it in any way, it is no business of this House ., it is before the courts now - there was an accident and a man was in hospital for months, a lady is killed and all that comes from that. And that can happen to anyone. It happens every day in this Prov.in::.::;.

We cannot prevent it, I fear - although the drunk driving legislation . q.nd,_ otP.,er · "\:h.ings have helped - !Jut we can surely alleviate it. Other than that, Sir, the bill is relatively unexceptional. We ca .n talk about - and my friends and colleagues on this side have made some very, very good points. I have my own views and, you know, I think we should, as we are here, require stopping - with school buses that is one of the most sensible rules we have, that when a school bus is stopped, Mr. Speaker, the children coming out of i·t explode and go in all directio .ns at once and provisions BSDn

I July 9,1981 Tape No. 3199 ah-1 MR. ROBERTS: the very least we should require is drivers to stop until that b~s.moves off. And, you know, there are other points but they.have a~l - been well dealt with by members on this side so I will not repeat them.But I do want to say as strong as I can that (

a) we should require insurance companies to notify the . registrar when a policy is cancelled. I can think of no argument against it and compelling arguments in favour of it. And,secondly, I think we should raise the limit for the minimum amount of insurance, the compulsory amount, I would say to at least nsO,OOO aJ:?.d if there is .. a feeLing that the insurance companies are profiting,then there are methods to take care of that. I do not think they are profiting based on what we know publicly of their results and their records,but if there is that feeling that there are other ways to solve that problem.

What concerns me is the situation which crops up time and time agairc- these are not isolated examples - in which people are injured and have no economic recourse. They can get a judgement at law but the judgement is of no value to them because it cannot be .enforced and this happens time and time again. Having said . that, Mr. Speaker, I shall sit down having said what I wanted to say on this bill and other hon. gentlemen can speak or if not the minister can close debate and we will carry on with it. MR.SPEAKER (Simms): The hon.Minister of Transportation. If the hon. minister speaks now he will close the debate.

MR.DAWE: I wish to thank all hon. members I•Tho . have spoken on this particular bill and I duly note a nllffiPer of hon. members mentioned 1 I think first brought up by my colleague,the member for St. John's North (Mr.J.Carter) 1as it relates to the insurance situation which was brought again by the member for the Strait. I have already had 1 my co llea gue the Minister of Justice (Mr. tl501

July 9,1981 Tape No. 3199 ah-2 MR. DAWE: Ottenheimer) and myself have had some preliminary meetings on this particula~ topic and we will be continuing that over the next month or so with our officials to try and develop a firm policy in this direction. One thing that may aid in this is the pronosed new system of licensing which will occur on more of a staggered basis over the period of a year which will relieve that pressure situation at one point in time in the year. MR. ROBERTS: For vehicles. MR. DAWE: But it will also .relieve the staff ~r~s~nr~ nver a more significant period of time. MR.

ROBERTS: They are now (inaudible). MR. DAWE: Yes. This will be for the car renewal licenses and so on. Mr. Speaker, we have duly noted the concerns of a number of members and , of course, like this government has been doing all along 1 we will take note of it and implement new programmes and policies as they become necessary. And I would like at this time to move second reading. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Highway Traffic Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 36). MR. MARSHALL: Order 19 Bill No. 25.

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Motor Carrier Act." (Bill No. 25). MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR.DAWE: The hon. Minister of Transportation. Mr. Speaker, Bill No. 25 will bring the operators, the private operators of ambulances l:l50?

I J / July 9,1981 Tape No. 3199 ah -3 MR. DAWE: and c~~s and vehicles that carry injured peo9le under the same standard and guidelines as now applie s to commercial operators . MR. SPEAKER . (S imm s} : The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR .ROBERTS : Ambulances operated by municipalities,which are now exempt,w .ill be coming under the board and so they should . MR . DAWE : Tha t is correct. On mot -ion, a 'bill, "An Act To Amend The Motor ~arrier Act ," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole Bouse on tomorrow . CBill No . 25) MR . MARSHALL : Order 20 Bill No. 45 ~50:1

.... July 9; 1981 Tape 320 .0 PK - 1 Motion, sec .ond ' reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend Tlie Highway Traffic Act To Provide For The Compulsory Use Of Seat Belts". (Bill No. 45). MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister for Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, it gives.me a great deal of pleasure to be the minister responsible for the Department of Transportation at a time when this b~ll is introduced. I think all hon. members will be pl~ased and happy to support this particular piece of legislation.

If statistics speak for themselves,over the twelve months after this particular piece of legislation becomes law, we will have been collectively responsible for saving some ten to fifteen lives on the Newfoundland highroads in any given twelve month period. There are a number of people who have expressed some concern, there are a number of myths which have been created about the use of seat belts. There are those who say that they fear being trapped in their vehicle. Mr.

Speaker, the first use and the extensive use of seat belts was by race car drivers who were involved in high speed activities and these drivers were the first to use and successfully use seat belts. pecause by using seat belts, if they do become involved in an accident,they have a greater opportunity to remain conscious and in control of their activities as opposed :o bein~ unconscious 1without the use of a seat belt, and run the risk of being burned and in some cases on the high road, of being, where this rare occasion happens, involved in an accident where your car runs into a river or a lake , trapped in the car and not being able to get out.

The seat belt,contrary to the belief that it will trap you 1will,in fact,allow you the opportunity to be able to get yourself out of those dangerous situations. U504

I July 9, 1981 Tape 3200 PK - 2 MR. DAWE: It is important to ·realize that in any collision there are two types of accidents. One involves the car itself and the collision of metal against metal or metal against some other object , and the second collision occurs within the car itself, that is, the human collision, the passengers, the driver of the car becoming tossed around inside a very hard­ framed vehicle, hard-framed designed,by the way, Mr. Speaker, to protect the passengers and the driver who are· in a specific part of the automobile.

Without the use of seat belts, once a car is involved in an accident,people are dashed around inside the car and not only are hurt by the car itself, but are sometimes hurt by actually two people coming together and doing damage to themselves. Statistically we are told that some 48 per cent of all the fatalities and car accidents are head injuries, those injuries caused by a passenger or the:·driver hitting his head against the windshield, against the door frame, or some other object in front of him in the car.

About 37 per cent of all fatalities are caused by chest and abdomen injuries, caused in most cases by the steering wheel or some other ~truding object in the car. The steering wheel itself, Mr. Speaker, is responsible for some 30 per cent, in total, of fatalities; the side of the car some 22 per cent of all fataliEies,all because people do not use seat belts. It is interes±ing to note, Mr. Speaker; that 'parents, in their desire to protect and cuddle their young ones, ~5CS

/ July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3201 · IB-1 MR. DAWE: are really the major cause, in a lot of cases,of babies being crushed between their parent and the dash of the car. In simulated incidents it has been shown that babies weighing some seventeen pounds cannot be held by the average size 'woman in car crashes of fifteen to thirty miles an hour, even when they know that the accident is about to happen or the car is about to come to a sudden stop.A child of ten pounds,in a collision of thirty miles an hour,transmits a body weight into the crash of some 300 pounds.

It is the equivalent of dropping the baby off a three story building onto the pavement. I think, Mr. Speaker, we can all be proud of the fact that over the next period of time we will be emphasizing and re-emphasizing the resp~nsibilities that we have as drivers and as parents,remembering the fact that the use of an automobile on our road systems in this country is not a right, it is a privilege.

And that privilege carries with it a number of requirements, the passing of a driver's test, certain physical abilities, a certain age, it requires you to drive at certain speeds and to be not under the influence of alcohol and so on. This act is very specific and very simple in its application. First of all,I might say, .Me. Speaker, that it is government's intention to carry out a twelve month educational campaign that will involve a great number of a~encies and school systems and so on thrnucrhout the Province. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. DAWE: Before it will be enacted as being compulsory, yes.

That process will involve,as I said,a number of agencies. And it is interesting to point out, Mr. Speaker, that already there has been public support from a number of organizations that have felt 85GR

/ July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3201 IB-2 MR. DAWE: obliged either .. to write in or to make public their support for this proposed piece of legislation. The Newfoundland Medical Association have voiced their support on a number of occasions. The Newfoundland Safety Council, the Janeway Hospital, the NTA have expressed,at their convention and in other forms, their desire to see this particular .piece of legislation out forward.

I had a teacher and his family into my office just yesterday -morning and the wife of the - the man said to me, 'I would like for you to say in the House of Assernbl~when you introduce this bill,that it was because we used seat belts that the lives of five Newfoundlanders, namely their .family, was saved just last year in a very serious car accident'. Young Drivers of Canada have put forward their support for this particular piece of legislation. The Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Labour,in a recent submission to the Cabinet in this Province,voiced their support.

There have been numerous editorials from individuals and from ' other groups throughout the Province. There will be some exemptions, possible exemptions for medical reasons. And ~he Medical Association have discussed this and said that it will be very reluctant ·to just pass out medical exemptions for anything other than very serious reasons. The police in urb~n centers, some taxi drivers and so on who are getting in and out of their vehicles ,may be exempt under certain regulations. And before closing, Mr.

Speaker, I wou.ld like to pay tribute to the former Minister of Transportation who was instrumental in bringing this particular piece of legislation forward to 8507 .·.

/ / July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3201 IB-3 MR. DAWE: Cabinet and who did most of the spade work. I am privileged to be a'ble to present this but in reality the former Minister of Transportation, the member for Trinity North {Mr. Bret t). is to be complimented for his particular efforts in bringing forward this piece of legislation. Thank you , ~.r. Speaker . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~50R

July 9, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : osition. MR. STIRLING: Tape No. 3202 . EL - 1 The . hon. the Leader of the Opp- Mr. Speaker, I will be voting for this piece of legislation. On this side of-the House we have no problem supporting anything that is brought in of a forward-think­ ing or a progressive nature or will help the nennle in Newfounnland and Labrador. There has not been a single instance, where this government has brought in a piece of progressive legislation,that we have voted against it. But we have voted against bad legislation and we will continue to do so.

Mr. ,Speaker, one of the reasons that I personally can support this piece of legislation is the same rea­ son that the Minister of Transportation(R.Dawe) can, he has~ all of the good films that have been produced, he has seen all of the statistics that have been produced and he has become convinced. Well, Mr. Sp~aker, whether or not the fears that people have are real, as the minister said, there are some myths. If you fear something, then that is very real to the person who has that fear.

And I want to tell the minister that I believe that all of the in­ formation which hw has and all the films which he has, should be made available. The minister has a hahit of icrnorin~ - MR. DAWE: I am listening to you. MR. STIRLING: Yes, but give me the courtesy of looking as if you are listening. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh~ MR. SPEAKER(Sirnrns): Order, please~ MR. STIRLING: The success of this legislation will largely'depend on the minister's ability to get the information out to the publi7, to get the education across to the public. And he / t350~ /

I July 9,1981 Tape No. 3202 EL - 2 MR. STIRLING: should use television and he should use whatever other means, and people on this side of the House will be quite happy to take our share of engagements - MR. LUSH: Get the Premier on television. MR. STIRLING: - because, Mr. Speaker, passing the legislation is not going to be enough. As the minister knows, where there is no legislation in force, about 8 per cent of the people use seat belts. Where there is legislation in fo7ce,about 40 per cent use seat belts. But the danger lies in that other 60 per cent. Mr. Speaker, it is because they do not know the difference.

Every case that has been brought to the minis ·ter's attention, like this young couple that were in his office this morning, and we could all personally cite dozens and dozens of cases where they have had the same experience now, it requires discipline. I now use a seat belt but I must confess it is only when I go on out of town driving because of the nuisance.

And eventually, the legislation that is going to make it worthwhile will be legislation requiring car manufacturers to have some kind of thing which is automatic, some kind of an enclosure system which is automatic, that you do not have to go through the nuisance of buckling up. That is going to be the end result. The engineering technology is there, it just requires the will to bring in some kind of automatic system. So, Mr. Speaker, the thing I would like to emphasize is that there are some very real fears. There are peop1e out -there who are very much concerned about getting trapped.

There are people who have fears, no matter how misinformed they are, and really the challenge to the minister is for ~s1n

July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3203 . SD - 1 MR. STIRLING: him to get the information across so that people will buckle up because they want to be safe. Now,the legislation is going to be the prod that will get people into the habit. And, Mr. Speaker, it does require with it a full education prograi!1Ille and you may have to give some of those frightening kinds of statistics that you just gave~ The 3ffect of dropping a child out of a three storey window is something that people will rebel against, they will accuse you of fear tactics, _but, Mr.

Speaker, it i~ · important, for the lives that can be saved ,for. the minister to persevere and bring that information to the attention of the public until people develop the habit of buckling up. And so,therefore, Mr. Speaker, the points · that I would like to bring out is that there are some real doubts. Some of the members on our side have some doubts.

I do not because•I have seen these statistics and I have seen the information,and the minister has seen it,and I would like for the minister to show the same information to colleagues on my side as he has shown to his colleagues ·, and that he make that same information available to the public. And, Mr. Speaker, when that is done you will not have the resentment.

The i-mmediate resentment,when this legislation is passed,is saying one more thing that you are forcing people to do, There will be peOJ;>l,e who :Will resent it, and there will be people who will have serious objections against it and there are people who have some fears against it. Well, Mr. Speaker, that is the real chal3:-enge to this minister. If he will provide them with the information, he will find that he will not have any real problems getting people to buckle up. If he provides them with the information. And I urge him not to introduce the programme until he has an education programme to go with it.

I am not suggesting delay the 8 s '11

/ July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3203 · SD - 2 MR. STIRLING: implementation of the programme, what I am suggesting is over the Summer get all of this good material which is readily available so - MR. DAWE: Sta):"ting imme-diately. MR.: STIRLING: Starting immediately. When are you planning to proclaim it? MR. DAWE: (inaudible) next year. Well, we are· looking at it so I would say the 1st of August of MR. STIRLING: Well,you · may, in fact, be able to speed that up.

I would suggest that if you are serious,and I believe you are, that in the next twelve months you could save ten or twelve lives by buckling up, that with an intensive educational programme I believe that you could speed up that deadline and that you could maybe aim for the 1st of January rather than the 1st of Augus~ next year. And I,personally,would support it. There may be some who feel that they have to vote against it,and I would urge you to put the legislation now and we will see what happens. MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : The hon. member for St. John's North. MR.

CARTER: There are a few points that I think should be made in this debate. I feel quite strongly about seat belt legislation myself,and I would like to make the follow~ng points. MR. NEARY:· · -- (Inaudible) ~1R. SPEAKER: Order, please!· MR. CARTER: We are hearing from the resident anthropologist. The best thing he can do if he wants to serve this House is to go out and make away with himself. MR. NEARY: Buckling up (inaudible). MR. CARTER: There are a number of ways - out the window is one of the best, the quickest. ~51 ?

I July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3203 so - 3 MR. CARTER: As I . was saying, I think that seat belts are good . The use of a seat belt o.r - the impact that a car going thirty or thirty -five miles an hour, well within the legal limit, on impact that would be·the same as the hon. member for LaPoile (~tr . Neary) leaping out ~his window and landing on the pavement below and we can imagine what the result would - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) MR. CARTER: Oh, oh! Foolish cuff. MR. NEARY: (Inaud .ible) MR. CARTER: - the end result would be about the same. In the hon . member's case , I think I I ( 8-5 1:1

I I I July 9, 1981 Tape No. _3204 IB-1 MR. CARTER: it would perhaps be a happy result but ,nevertheless ,we deplore the unnecessary loss of -life that that can occur. But I do suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the legislation requiring seat belts is not the ultimate solution. In the first place, I think it is a bad law. It is just a generally bad law because I do not think it can be easily enforced. It is _nqt obvious to a policeman whether a person- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CARTER: Mr ·: Speaker; I have the right to be heard in silence and I think I can insist upon it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.

CARTER: to be heard in silence. MR. SPEAKER (BAIRD): to be heard in silence. MR. THOMS: be heard at all. MR. CARTER: is the -- MR. SPEAKER: to be heard in silence. MR. CARTER: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker, I have the right Order, please! The hon. member has the right He does not have the right to Mr. Speaker, what kind of vitamins Order, please! Every hon. member has the right I wonder what kind of vitamins they are taking, Mr. Speaker. Too much meat I think probably, too high a protein diet.

Anyway, I suggest, Mr .- Speaker, that the fact that a person is or is not wearing his seat belt is not readily apparent to a policeman or to a member of the general public or to someone outside that vehicle. Therefore,it leads the guilty party very easil y to say,if a policeman stops him, "Look, you are not wearing your seat belt", "Oh yes, I was. I just removed it. Once the car carne to a stop I am not required to wear it. So I just removed / the seat belt". t3514

/ / July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3204 ·IB-2 MR. CARTER: So I thi nk, in my opinion, it is bad law. And in jurisdictions that I have been in,where the seat belt legislation was in force and was compulsory ,and where the fines and the sentences for noncompliance were very heavy,! had not seen any evidence of greater use of seat belts than in jurisdictions where it is not compulsory.

And,therefore,I suggest that although there are people who believe that the seat belt legislation is what encourages the increased use of seat belts,! would suggest that what increases the use of seat· belts is the concurrent advertising campaign that goes along with it. Now,! do not think any jurisdiction wants to appear to be overly heavy-handed. So at the same time as presenting this legislation ,they present a very heavy comprehensive educational programme. And I would suggest that that is the programme that does the good. That is what gets people to buckle up.

Now some cars, the Broncos for instance, some of these four-wheel drive cars ,have what is called a roll bar in them and I can speak with some personal knowledge,that the anti roll bar is just as effective if not more effective in saving lives. So I would like to say to the minister that whatever he is putting in this act, whatever he wants to make compulsory,it is probably more.irnportant- two th ings should be compulsory, one that cars should have functional BSIS

July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3205 EL - 1 MR. CARTER: seat belts because they are useful. They are good. I am not suggesting they are not good but I am suggesting that making them­ trying to enforce them by law is the wrong··way to go about it. The second thing is roll bars should be enforced : All vehicles should be ~~ with roll ~ar~ because many times a car, when it goes out of control,will roll and flatten and,of course the members can imagine the damage that is done. Some years ago, there was a team .. . of acrobatic drivers here and they put off a show that was quite ~ . pressive.

They had safety harnesses and cra~h helmets and these roll bars,in old cars specially fixed UPr the glass had been removed,and they-collided with each other and they rolled over and over and they did impossible things and they emerged without a scratch. And if ever there was an example of safety equipment being able to prevent personal injury, that certainly was enough to - MR. LUSH: What does the hon. member mean by functional? MR. CARTER: belts. MR. LUSH: Safety harness, functioning seat (Inaudible) MR.

CARTER: Yes, well now of course, the harness that these drivers were wearing were rather more cumbersome and they had safety helmets, shoulder straps, safety belt and ,of course . these ro~l,bars .. MR. LUSH: - be able to (inaudible) MR. CARTER: The hon. gentleman should be silenced permanently. _ I would gladly undertake the job - MR. SPEAKER (Baird): Order, ,please! MR. CARTER: - but it is not parliamentary. So, that is the - the point too, that should be made, Mr. Speaker, is that although we try our best ; ' B5Hi

July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3205 · EL - 2 MR. CARTER: to pass a·fair bit of legislation here, we may get carried away with the efficacy of legislation. Not everything is amenable to legislation. And I am reminded of the jurisdiction in the United States ,some·years ago .where the members were carried away in a state of moral fer- vor and passed a law requiring people to be good. So, I do not think that you can make people wear seat belts just by passing the legislation. I·was tempted to vote against it. I think it is bad legislation.

I am certainly speaking against it but on reflection I do not think it matt~rs whether we vote for it or do not vote for it ,because in jurisdictions where it is in force, where the law is in place, people do not observe it. It becomes a dead letter. What they do observe, what does happen is you get a heightened use of seat belts but it is the educational programme that is concurrent. So, with those few observations, I will let it go but I would suggest to the minister that the use of anti-roll bars is more effective and that I would suggest that he wait a good long time before proclaiming this law.

Mean- while, concentrating upong the educational programme and the diss- ernination of the statistics which are, although to my view, some- what biased,still very impressive and very useful. Thank you very much. MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : If the hon. the minister speaks now he wi_L!. clos~ the debate. MR. DAWE: I am glad that the member for St. John's North (J.Carter) made his comments. It just shows again what a democratic l?arty is on this side of the House. MR. BARRETT : Hear, hear! MR.

DAWE: There is one statistic that I really wanted to put forward and it is a booklet that carne forWard from Transport Canada which did a survey across Canada, and it inter- viewed people in various situations and various walks of life, 8 51 7 I

July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3205 EL - 3 MR. DAt'lE: each province. about the ·same number of people in It indicates that the people of a province, or the residents of a province most in favour of mandatory seat belt legislation was Newfoundland, some 91 ··per cent, the highest in Canada. With that, Mr. Speaker, I would move second reading. I ~51 A I

I July 9, 1981 Tape 320·6 PK - 1 On motion, a bill"; "An Act Tq Amend The Highway Traffic Act To Provide For The Compulsory Use Of Seat Belts", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. [Bill No. 45) MR. MARSHALL: Orde~ 21, Bill No. 34. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Child Welfare Ac·t, 1972". (Bill No.34). , The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) I have pleasure in introducing this bil+. This is a forward step in the child welfare law of this Province.

It changes the definition of a child in need from a neglected child to a child in need of protection.·. We feiel .it,. ·much more accurately describes the situation. It also, Mr. Speaker, sets forth in Clause (3) more clearly,the principles of what are in the best interest of a child in need of protection. Clause (4) extends,as well,· the right of the Director of Welfare to empower the airector to delegate responsibility for medical attention to a child in need of protection, to a person whom the airector feels it appropriate to do so.

At the present state it is rather narrow ~nd it is only the director and a social worker who may have medical attention for such a child, and,of course, this is too narrow and we want to expand that. Generally speaking then, Mr. Speaker, that is the essence and the principle of the bill. And we feel it is a forward piece and a progressive piece of legislation, and we 'urge it for the consideration of the House. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. member for St. Barbe. MR. BENNETT: Mr. Speaker, I would certainly like to have a few comments on this piece of legislation. it is a very broad bill. In my opinion, it is good.

Mr. Speaker, But there is no reason at all to bring it in because most of this could be, tl51q

I July 9, 1981 Tape 3206 PK - 2 MR. BENNETT: in effect, in eff~_qt before this was ever introduced to the House orAssembly. My exposure to a district of people who support the government, taxpayers, and the government who profess to protect people and provide for children, ~n my opinion, Mr. Speaker, there are some terrible discrepancies. Just a few . days ago-when we look at Clause 2 (ii) "a child who is without necessary food, clothing or shelter, as may be available with the level of financial assistance given in relation to that child under the -- :)_~ws of the province~" how, Mr.

Speaker, we do not need to bring in new legislation or amend existing legislation to provide sufficiently for children. When you realize the subsistence existence of some of the children we have in our care today, some of these children, most of them, Mr. Speaker, subsist ·; if they are on social assistance,a dollar a day, very little more than a dollar a day. Now, Mr.

Speaker, an apple will cost fifty cents, a can of Coke will cost fifty cents, so what is left for the child to have boots provided or schooling or books or whatever is necessary for the welfare of that child? ''A child who is living in circumstances that are unfit or improper for the child". The hon. Minister of Health (Mr. House) is not in his seat at the moment, I was hoping he would stay there, the hon. Minister of Social Services (Mr.

Hickey) is not in his seat and I was hoping he would be there to hear my comments, because for two years I have been trying to get assistance for people who live in the most deplorable conditions, and the hon. Minister of Healtn might very well know of whom t15t-n

/ July 9, 1981 Tape 3207 EC - 1 MR. BENNETT: I speak- I will certainly tell him that for two years I have been trying to get decent accommodation for families who have children. And I have notified the Department of Health and the Department of Social Services. Mr. Speak~r ,. if you were keeping animals in such deplorable conditions and the SPCA were notified ,they would not allow animals, pets, to be kept in such deplorable conditions .as those in which we find our children, human beings, being kept. Housing in the district - there have been substantial dollars spent in my district, Mr.

Sp~aker, on a federal pr~gramme that is known as RRAP. Houses that are beyond repair are referred to Social Services. Quite a few of them in my district have been written off, and undoubtedly, a lot of them in the Province have been written off as unrepairable, beyond repair, and they are referred to the Department of Social Services or some other department in government. But because they are beyond repair, people still have to suffer and raise their children in those most deplorable conditions, in houses that are beyond repair, cannot be salvaged by a RRAP programme.

And people are living in subsistence conditions in which it is impossible for them to raise their children with any decent standard at all, just to raise them,apart from the education that they need to face a very hostile world, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I shall not tarry very long. There is another comment I would like to make seeing we are speaking of children and the welfare of children. Again, I must relate to my own district, because I am familiar with a case that I brought to the attention of the Department of Social Services where a man lost his wife. His wife passed away and left him 8521

/ July 9, 1981 Tape 3207 EC - 2 MR. BENNETT: with six· small children. That man is not able to get housekeeping financial help for any more than, I think, something in the order of $60 a month but, Mr. Speaker, if the ~~ildren were taken away from the parent who now is a single parent - if the children were taken away and placed in foster homes with strangers and not raised in .a ~amily atmosphere, the government would find many hundreds of dollars, something in the order of $150 per child, I am told, to raise those children in fos~er homes,away from the family unit. Now, in my opinion, these children, Mr.

Speaker, would be better raised in the family "atmosphere, with their parent. So these are some of the things that I would hope the various ministers in their wisdom would in future make sure get enforced, and as·I said earlier in my talk, Mr. Speaker, we do not need legislation of this nature, what we need to do is respect and enforce and carry on existing legislation to take care of children, give sufficient financial assistance where it is necessary. And I am honestly of the opinion that the government would benefit in its Treasury and the children would be raised in a much better manner. Thank you, Sir.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Child Welfare Act, 1972," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 34). Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Fishing Industry Advisory Board Act, 1975," (Bill No. 11). MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. 852?

I July 9, 1981 Tape 3207 EC - 3 MR. MORGAN: A brief c ~~ent, Mr. Speaker. This is to give authority to the Fishing Industry Advisory Board to gather information from ·u52:1

! / July 9, 1981, Tape 3208, Page 1 -- apb MR. MORGAN: · the . sector of the industry dealingwith the construction.of fishing vessels and the acquisition of equipment for these vessels which was not, prior to now, included in the Fishing Board Advisory Board authority. MR. SPEAKER (Simms}: The hon. the member for Bur~n - Placentia West. MR. HOLLETT: Thank you, Mr ·. speaker. I would like to make some brief comments in relation to· the amendment and the Board itself. Mr.

Speaker, I think the minister well knows, and most of us are aware of the fact, that since this Board was conceived and put in operation it has been some- what of a lame-duck board not because of the members there but because of the very strict limitations placed upon it. I think it is fair to say on behalf of the Board that they have endeavoured to do their best, but because of the lack of complete legislation that would give them access to the complete fi~hing industry, in the past they were unable to perform this task.

And certainly this amendment, as I know some of the larger fish companies do not agree with it,in relation to the total disclosure of everything, if we are going to know on a regular basis the state of the industry, then certainly the Advisory Board would have to have acess to this type of information, it would be very incomplete otherwise. Mr. Speaker, there is one other thing I would like to mention,and I think that the minister would basically agree with me, and I will be quite honest, I did not ask him in advance at all, but it has come to my attention that certain ~embers of this hon.

House, on occasion, have asked the Advisory Board 8524

I I July 9, 1981, Tape 3208, Page. 2 -- apb MR. HOLLETT: fo~ some pertinent information but were refused because basically their rule is to advise the minister and the Department of Fisheries. I can appreciate the fact that in some cases information has to be classified very sensitive, and rightfully so, and this should not be dispensed, but certainly, Mr.

Speaker, I believe ~hat any han. member of this House who asks for basic information that the Advisory Board has compiled, then certainly I think it should .be made available to thel)l• I would like to ask on behalf of myself and other members, in particular, ask the minister if he could agree to this request and also notify members of the Board that some of us will be asking for information from time to time and we would like to get it. Thank you very much. MR. SPEAKER (Siillms): The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, to close the debate on this amendment I will say that the request is a very genuine one. MR. SPEAKER: Order! Order! MR. HISCOCK: You are closina the debate before - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Another member wishes to speak. I am sorry. The hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Just very, very briefly, and I will be very brief, with regardto the boat bounties for boats over twenty-five feet in his district - MR. MORGAN: Wrong bill. Wrong bill. BS2S

/ JulY 9, 1981, Tape 3208, Page 3 -- ap~ MR. HISCOCK: · I know it is the wrong bill, but with regard to the fishermen being on the Advisory Board, can the minister inform me whether it is in this bill or some other bill whether they will be obtaining them this year? MR. SPEAKER(Simrns): The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. If the hon. minister speaks now he closes the debate. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the question regarding the bounties I would prefer to answer on the bill dealing wit~ the change in the Bounties Act. I will be glad to answer the question then.

But I_will say, in the comment made by the hon. the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thorns), that I agree that information gathered by that Board should be available to all members of the House of Assembly, especially those who have fisherrn~n in their ridings. But the procedure, of course, will have to be that requests come through the minister because they report to the minister. I agree the information should be available and, in fact, I will arrange to make same available in the future.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Fishing Industry Advisory Board Act, 1975", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: (Bill No. ll). Order 23, Bill No. 3Q. B52R

July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3209 IB-1 Mot 'ion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Co-operative Societies Act". (Bill No. 30) -MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural ·and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, with this bill . we want to make two or three changes. Number one, the first clause would just delete the redundant reference to

Section 29. But clause 2 would allow the minister, or give the minister power to allow co-operatives to issue credit to their members in excess of limits which are generally imposed under the act. Presently credit is · allowed up to 75 per cent of the paid up 'shares of any member of any co-operative. BUt this is not very satisfactory, for instance, in the case of some fishermen who may want to buy a number of hundreds of dollars or even thousands of dollars of gear and who may have only a hundred dollar membership in the union.

This clause would allow the minister the power to allow co-operatives to extend that credit beyond the 75 per cent of the paid ·up shared. capital. The other clause, clause 3 would allow the minister the power to provide for the creation and the stabilization of a mutual aid "fund. And this is a fund which has been requested for several years now by various co-operatives throughout the Province, and would provide some protection to members in the case of bankruptcy or some such nature.

And the final clause, clause 4 would change the name of the Newfoundland Co-operative Services to the Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Co-operatives, to more accurately reflect the role they play in today's society. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. 8527

I / July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3209 IB-2 MR. HISCOCK: Mr. S~e~ker, we have no problem in supporting this bill and,in actual fact,find that it is long overdue. But we are quite pleased that we are setting up stabilization of a mutual aid fund for the various co-ops in this Province. I strongly believe t~at where we have the Fisheries Loan Board, where we have the Rural Development, where we have the Agricultural Development and various other co-ops in this Province,that. it is has more often-been redundant in administration work and we lose more in renting office space, etc. instead of providing these funds to them.

As for section (4), changing it to Newfoundland and Labrador, again I feel very strongly that most things in this Province should be referred to as Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Co-ops or federation of whatever and u ~ing it. With. extending the credit, as I said, we are finding great difficulty, Mr. Speaker, with regard to the high interest rates ~n the country at this time and also the problems of getting loans from a bank, that we do need to strengthen our co-ops even more in our Province,particularly with regard to our rural areas.

If we are going to develop an economic base in our outlying areas of this Province,then we need to hav~ a greater availability of money. And we can only have that available if we have loan boards, etc: Set up·and co-ops. So for the Opposition,we support the bill and, as I said before, we find that it is long overdue. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Co-operative Societies Act", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 30) t352R

I I July 9, 1981 Tape No . 3209 IB-3 Motion, ~~cond read~ng of a bill , "An Act To Amend The Department Of Rural, Agricultural And Northern Development Act". (Bill No. 33) MR . SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The hon . Mipister of Rural, Agricultural And Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speak er, this bill would give our department authority to ma ke requlations for the granting of loans to various in terested groups and individuals throughout the Province as opposed to using guidelines which are presently in pla~e . - MR . SPEAKER: The hon . member for Eagle River. MR . HISCOCK: Again, Mr .

Speaker, the bill is quite straightforward. But one of the thin~s that we brought up in the Estimates of the Department of Rural . 852!1

July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3210 . RA - 1 MR. E. HISCOCK: Development as well as brouqht up in . the House: this House, or the opposition goes on record of standing that if we are going to loan out money to individuals and companies in this Province,then we should find out whq they are.

The Department of Rural Development, moreso than an v other depart­ ment of government ,refuses to give the names of individuals in the Province w?o ~re getting money, much of it is often grants as well as loans, getting it from the taxpayers of this Province and when the public knowledge - 'ilhen people ask for it and ask who these people are getting this money,we are told that it is confidential and we cannot get it.

Yet with regard to DREE or with . regard to any other departments, the Fisheries Loan .Board, for example, and other groups in this Province, when we find out who got the loan, how much, what did they get i~ for, there is no problem. And I am rather reluctant to say that the De~artment of Rural Development,with regard to giving loans, is often used like the Fisheries Loan Board,for political patron­ age, and that is how the loan board, the Fisheries Loan Board, found itself in the trouble, as they did in the last election.

Before th~ last e1ection,the former Minister of Fisheries went around giving out loans and grants and that until finally, when all the bills came in etc:_etera, what ended up happeninq was that they found out that theLoan Board was bankrupt. The fisherl!l~n got _rid of the Fisheries Advisory Board and set up another one .. And r feel that the same thing is happening with the Department of Rural Development loans. I wonder why the governinent MR. NEARY: (Inaudible l . MR, E. HISCOCK: -is not permitting the names to be told, when we are gi ving them loans and giving them grants. MR. E. HISCOCK: MR.

NEARY: I,as a member of this House - (.Inaudible) . 8 .s ~ n

July 9, 1981 Tape No. 3210 RA- 2 ~. SPEAKER(Sirnms) : Order, please! MR. HISCOCK: -and the taxpayers,feel that we have a right, we have a right to find out who--these loans are made to - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order. MR. HISCOCK: -who these loans are made to, Mr.S