ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 33 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 6 - 10:00 a.m., THURSDAY, 19 APRIL, 1984. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, O.C., Henry N. CORRIN, O.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, O.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, O.C., Hon. AI MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, O.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, O.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. VIc SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Ahineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St . Boniface Aiel Elmwooq Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lake siqe Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordi!i Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsla nd Logan Portage la Pra irie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Ra disson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pemb ina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphi n Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Os bo rne River Heights Fli n Flon lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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I LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 19 April, 1984. Time - 10:00 a.m. OP ENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Welding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, this is not a formal ministerial statement, but it is one of a non-political nature that I would like to make at this time. Mr.

Speaker, I think all Manitobans, not just all Manitobans but all Canadians, must feel a sense of pleasure this morning in regard to the announcement that Brian Dickson is being appointed the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada. The Manitoba com munity particu larly is quite conscious of the abilities and the experien ce of the due to be appointed Chief Justice, Brian Dickson, as having served for a number of years as Justice in the Court of Queen's Bench in the Province of Manitoba.

Born in Saskatchewan, having served as a veteran during the Second World War, served on the Manitoba Bar and, as well, serving in the Manitoba Courts. He was noted as one that was a progressive in the writing of his judgments, moderate in style, humanitarian, tended to rely upon the spirit, the sensitivities, rather than the literal

interpretation of law, one that was highly respected in his work in the Supreme Court of Canada and, I think as Manitobans, we can be justly proud of the fact this morning that a native son of Manitoba has been appointed the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On behalf of all members on this side, we certainly wish to associate ourselves with the remarks of the Premier in welcoming the announcement of Mr. Justice Dickson's appointment as Chief Justice.

Indeed, if not a native of Manitoba, certainly a tranplanted Manitoban who practiced law here and was first appointed to the bench here in Manitoba, he is one that all Manitobans can be proud of and I'm sure that all Manitobans, as well as all Canadians, welcome this appointment and are indeed supportive of the words of the Premier in making that announcement today. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... 117 ORAL QUESTIONS Placement of science and engineering students MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for the Jobs Fund and it follows on information that has been provided to the House, I believe, within the past week or so by both the Premier and the Minister responsible for the Jobs Fund with respect to the· effectiveness of the portion of the Jobs Fund that assisted in the placement of science and engineering graduates. My question to the Acting Minister is, is it intended to extend that part of the program to 1984 graduates of science and engineering from Manitoba's universities? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker , the Minis ter of Employment will take this question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Minister of Employment Services. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, that matter is now being looked at by our department and it was a very successful program last year and we are hoping that, if all goes well, we may be able to extend it. We are now having discussions with various people In universities and business organizations to see what we might do in the way of a program for the coming year. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the headline in a recent

article that indicated that "Future looks bleak for the U of M's class of 1984," and further the

article quoted the University's career specialist as saying, "the majority of the University of Manitoba's Class of 1984 face unemploym ent or unde remployment," but ask the Minister to pay particular attention to the obvious needs that are there in the employment of university graduates, and ask him when we might expect an answer on that particular matter? HON. L. EVANS: I would hope that we would be able to be in a position to give the House some more definite information within the next week or two.

As I indicated, we are having discussions with various organizations and universities and we are looking at various professional categories beyond engineering graduates, people in business administration, various applied sciences and so on. We think that the program has been very well received, has enabled people to get permanent jobs, has indeed helped Manitoba business at the same time and it is worth exploring and extending. Wh en we have something more concrete to advise the House, we will certainly make the approp riate announcements. MR. G.

FILMON: I wonder if the Minister could indicate what proportion of those who were employed under that particular program resulted in permanent jobs.

Thursday, 19 April, 1984 HON. L. EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker , one of the conditions of that particular program, as I understand, was that the employer had to be offering the employee, the graduate, a position that was of a permanent nature, that was expected to be ongoing after the program was concluded. So ideally, all of the - ideally I underline - would be kept on in permanent capacities. However, that is something we can check out.

I certainly will check out exactly how many were able to stay on in accorda nce with the ideal outline of the program objectives; and certainly if we do anything again in the next year, that would be a condition of consideration because we're talking about a fairly long term type of emp loyment support, unlike Careerstart or some of the others, which tend to be of relatively short duration. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister indicate how many people were able to be employed under that program last year, how many engineering and science graduates? HON. L. EVANS: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I will take that question as notice and get the precise information for the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. Memorandum of Understanding re power MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, I direct this question to the First Minister, a question that was directed to the Minister responsible by my Leader yesterday and answered in the negative, but nonetheless I ask the First Mini ster, whether or not he is not prepared to give some very serious consideration to the fact that shortly the Manitoba Hydro utility will be appearing before the Standing Committee of Public Utilities, a utility that may be embarking on one of its most significant construction jobs - to quote the Minister's figures, $3 billion - is it really his intention of forcing the Opposition to go through those hearings without being able to ask Manitoba Hydro about that project?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: it's certainly our expectation that the Opposition will want to question Manitoba Hydro, the officials of Manitoba Hydro, with respect to the project announced; expectations with respect to possible resumption of Limestone. Mr. Speaker, we will be anxious to provide all the information that we can that's available to us to provide it to members of the opposition. We want to iJe as open as we can with the provision of information as long, Mr.

Speaker - and it's very very important - that we not jeopardize present delegate negotiations that are under way in other areas pertaining to Manitoba Hydro. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, the First Minister has as long a history in this Chamber and knows the importance of that Public Utilities Committee meeting in meet ing with Hydro. Regrettably he also knows that the history has not always been all that good. Sequence of con struction has been of major concern. as it should be. MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. H.

ENNS: Well, my question is just simply to ask him, will he supply us with all the information necessary . for the Public Utilities Committee to come to the decision, supportive of Hydro if we can be, about the reschedu hilg or the scheduling of the largest construction job in Manitoba in the last decade? Will we have the Memorandum of Understanding before us at the time the Public Utilities Committee is called? 118 HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to answer that question.

We are very anxious. unlike some of the concerns that are expressed by the honourable member, this government is very anxious to provide all the information it can during the hearings. We will be very very reluctant not to provide information. The only information I could think of us not presenting at this particular point, presented later, - I'm sure honourable members would agree with this, and I know that Manitobans would agree - that any information that would jeopardize delicate negotiations would not be presented. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, on the assumption that a possible acceleration of Limestone is being generated by the successful conclusion of a power sale to Northern States Power . . . HON. H. PAWLEY: I'm not assuming anything. MR. H. ENNS: . . . if that is the case, then surely at issue are the parameters of it, the way the sale is being negotiated, is it in the interests of future Manitobans and of the Manitoba Hydro utility itself? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister would deal with this, but I would not know what question the honourable member would be intending.

I would think we would want to provide all the information that we could, and would be available to Manitoba Hydro at that time, to the Legislature as to possible resumption, and what basis possible resumption, we would want to indeed assist . . . MR. H. ENNS: That committee has been lied to by the Executive Officers of the Hydro and it has gone through MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLI':Y: Thank you. Mr. Speaker. We would want to assist honourable members as fully and as completely as we can so that we could remove what I think would be unwarranted suspicions they might have.

The Honourable Minister might want to respond further to the question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, I did indicate that the contract would be signed in early June. At that particular stage, we will provide material for the Legislature. The committee review of the Public Utilities

Thursday, 19 April, 1984 which reviews Hydro can in fact deal with it at that time. There are other matters that may be of interest to committee members that Hydro deals with as well, but certainly we will provide that informa tion, Mr. Speaker . We made that commitment yesterday that we would provide the information; we said that the contract would be signed and the material would be provided. The people of Manitoba have given the government the mandate to undertake negotiations and negotiate contracts. We do that on behalf of the people of Manitoba.

That is the mandate which we received in November of 1981; that is the way in which government operates. We then provide the information to the public; we provide it to the opposition. They can make their judgments as to whether they think it's a good deal or not. We have said, Mr. Speaker , that the deal is for in the order of $3.2 billion over 12 years .. . MR. H. ENNS: Manitoba Hydro has $500 million wasted in Northern Manitoba right now ... that's got that on the record. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, I'm surprised.

They ask me a question and I'm trying to provide an answer and all I hear is a lot of negative heckling on the other side. I believe if they ask a question in good faith, I'm certainly willing to do my best to provide the answers. I said that this is a $3.2 billion sale over 12 years, an enormous benefit to Manitoba and significant profit to Manitoba. lt is tied to the price of a non-renewable resource in the United States; ours is a renewable resource. We stand to benefit enormously from this. lt is a major breakthrough for Manitoba, I would hope we would all co-operate to see that it in fact be ach ieved.

Child abuse case MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry . MR. L. SHE RMAN: Thank you, Mr . Speaker .

My question is to the Honourable Minister of Community Services and arises out of the Ombudsman 's Report into a recent celebrated and infamous child abuse case in the jurisdiction of CAS Eastern Manitoba and I would ask the Minister whether, on the basis of the conclusions and recommendations coming out of that report - a report by the way with which I do not quarrel and a report on which I commend the Ombudsman for his fairness -whether the Minister is taking steps and if so, what steps is she taking to protect children at risk in Ma nitoba against a recurrence of that kind of failure to follow through on responsibilities to children at risk.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Commu nity Services. HON. M. SMITH: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'm happy to answer a question about an issue of deep concern to all of us with the rising awareness in the public of the extent of child abuse and increased channels by which child ren are reporting such cases. There is a growing need to 119 educate, not only the general public, but the social workers in the field in procedures to handle these cases.

Therefore the member opposite will be, I'm sure, pleased that last Friday I and my colleagues, the Honourable Ma ureen Hemphill, Larry Desjardins and Roland Penner did release the new child ab use guidelines that will give procedural assistance to people in the field in the area of education, health, police and community services. There is a lot to be done in public education but we think by the publication of these guidelines we've given strong evidence of our will to develop the service and pr otect, wherever possible, that kind of abuse to our children. MR. L. SHERMAN: Well, Mr.

Speake r, a supplementary question. I appreciate the response of the honourable Minister but did I miss some thing here? Would it be possible for the legislators of this province, the 57 elected legislators of this province to be familiarized with the guidelines on protection against child abuse to which the Mi nister just refers? All we've seen is a press release on this subject. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker , I will ensure that each member receives a copy. MR. L. SHERMAN: A supplemen tary, Mr. Speaker.

Can I ask the Minister, in view of the fact that we're heading into a temporary legislative hiatus for the Easter weekend and as a consequence I wouldn't expect we'd be getting much material from her in the next two or three days, can I ask her whether those guidelines lay down procedures by which social workers, case workers in the child abuse field and their supervisors are given new assistance, new guidelines, new directives in terms of direction on the basis of how they should respond to children who summon up their courage to report child abuse?

I'm sure the Mi nister if very aware that it takes a great deal of courage on the part of an ab used child to report the situation. Most of them are terribly frightened and em barrassed by the situation. When they summon up that courage, are case workers and supervisors going to respond to it in a more active and alert fashion? Do the guidelines cover that aspect of the question, Sir? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker , that is an area that gets specific attention.

One of the difficulties in the past, apart from the general difficulty that many people have had in recognizing the existence of many kinds of child abuse unless they have been directly involved in it, has been the concern that if they reported it and it was not verifiable, they might be liabl e for incor rect allegation. What we've done in the guidelines is say that anyone who suspects that there has been child abuse is to report it and that gives comfort to people in the field.

Now it would go then to a commi ttee made up of representatives from the different fields and they would then determine the next steps to be taken. But it takes some of the ambiguity or concern away from the individual in the field and encourages them, because of our prime concern for the well-being of the individual child, that they are to report and then a team approach will be taken to the issue.

Thursday, 19 April, 1914 MR. L. SHERMAN: I am pleased to hear that, Mr. Sp eaker, and I wish to acknowledge the Minister's assurance on that point. Can the Minister now assure me and assure members of this House that copies of those guidelines will be available to us and in our hands by an early date next week? And also, can she advise us when the legislators of this province will be given an opportunity to look at the Klmelman Report, another important document in the field of child welfare with respect to which we've only had the most superficial of press release coverage? HON. M.

SMITH: I have already given assurance on the first instance. The other report is available and if members wish, if they contact me directly, I will see they have a copy. Request for Addreu tor Papers MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for El mwood. MR. R. DOERN: I would like to direct a question to the House Leader concerning an Address for Pap ers· that I made three months ago, asking for copies of correspondence between the province, the Federal Government, Franco-Manitoban Socie ty, Manitoba 23, etc. Could the Minister indicate when tha t response will be received? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader.

HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The Addre ss was ag reed to when it was moved iri the House. Certain clearances are required and at that time I stated that those clearances would be required from third-party interests with regard to some of the documentation, that those clearances and the documentation are being put toget her. I would hope that the Address will be tabled as soon as that information is available and I'll give the member that assurance. As soon as I have the information and the documents and the clearances, the Address will be tabled in the House. 0/C 362 - Bilingual education grant MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Sp eaker . My question is to the Minister of Education with regard to some of the Orders-in-Council passed March 28, 1984. First of all, Mr. Spe aker, I would like to ask about Order-in-Council No. 362, a grant to the Manitoba Association for Bilingual Education, the amount being $1 63,000.00.

I would ask the Minister, knowing that this is a group of parents of students of, I understand, Hebrew, Uk rainian and German background who are concerned about education in those langua ges, if the Minister could tell me whether it's an exclusive group or whether there will be an openness to other ethnic groups within the province. And secondly, what was the funding last year relative to the amount passed in this Order-in-Council? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Sp eak er, I am pleased to answer the question.

Although it might more appropriately come up in Estima tes, I can say that there wasn't a grant given to this organization for this purpose . this year. They have just been developing the program themselves and put their proposal in that we reviewed very seriously. To his first question, does it preclude groups other than the few that were listed? I am pleased to say that it does not. There are a number of positions - I believe it's 10 -for people to be out in the field.

We have identified about six or seven of the positions In terms of categories in groups, the Ukr ainian, the German, but we have left open some of the positions for what you might call the emerging groups, the new groups, the ones that are just getting organized, who may not be as organ ized as the larger groups but may be just as interested in having tha t kind of support and help. So the positions are not all determined and there are openings and opportunities for the other emerging groups to have the same kind of support. MR. C. MANNESS: A supplementar y, Mr. Sp ea ker.

Could the Minister tell us specifically what the objective is of this association? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Well, Mr. Sp eak er, I think that they have a very wide-ranging number of goals and objectives and of course one of the large ones that they try to meet in many different ways In different programs; would be the mai ntenance, the support, the encouragement, the enh ancement, the promotion of their culture, in many many different ways . MR. C. MANNESS: In schools? 120 MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. M.

HEMPHILL: One of the ways of promoting and keeping your culture is to promote and keep your language, so that would be one of the goals, I think, of this organization. There are many others. I think perhaps very detailed questions about the organization and the grant would more appropria tely be answered through the Estima tes process. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Sp eake r, I then ask the Minister whether this association is going to require government funding on a yearly basis. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Sp eaker, I would imagine that this is a program where they want to support a program that is just developing, and to do what we all want to have done with important new programs like that, and that , is_ to _ involl(e th� parents in the community. I think that one of the Important elements, not jus t of this program but of others, is that parents know about the programs, they have them explained to them, they agree, they support them and that's one of the ways we're going to increase the public confidence in the schools -by more involvement of the parents in making decisions about programs.

So I think that they would see this program as being in place through the development period of a program, when they're getting it going, when they're explaining

Thursch1y, 19 April, 1984 it to parents, getting parents to understand and support it. But I don't imagine they would see it continuing once the programs are in place. 0/C 359 - Seine River grant MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker , a different line of questioning, though dealing with another Order-in­ Council, that being 359, passed March 28th, a grant to the Seine River School Division, No. 14, not to exc eed the sum of $41,936 for a development grant to help offset the additional costs associated with the setting up of the new Frenc h or Imm ersion school in the province. There are number of questions, Mr. Speaker.

The first one, the sum of $41 ,000 - I believe this is for operational costs in the first year of the new lie des Chemes school. Could the Mi nister tell me whether all new schools have the opportunity to apply for grants of this nature in their first year of operation? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, in the re gulations in the legislation that presently exists for the establishment of new schools of this nature - and I might say not brought in by this government but in place when we took office - there is a grant that has a criteria for the development, a sort of a seed or a development grant for the establishment of schools like this.

That legislation, I believe, was brought in by the members opposite, I think it was in place when we took office and I think it came in in their term of office. .What it meant was that there was recog nition that there would be some additional costs when you are establishing a school of that nature, when there are materials and supplies that aren't ordinarily or easily available and that may have a significant extra cost. There is a criteria established for that and the criteria giv es them, or entitles them, to an additional $4 1 ,000 as an establishment grant for getting the new school going.

A MEMBER: That sounds all right. MR. C. MANN ESS: Mr. Sp eaker , I will have the opportunity at Estimates to pursue the criteria in a little more detail at that time. I would then ask the question, Mr. Speaker, as to whether now all immersion schools in Manitoba are going to be called Frenc h schools. I've never seen that type of labelling before. I believe that immersion schools in many cases cover other languages also. Are now imm er sion schools going to be kno wn as Fren ch schools, are schools in Manitoba going to be called French schools? HON. M. HEMPHILL: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. C.

MANNESS: I'm sorry I didn't hear the answer. HON. M. HEMPHILL: No, all immersion schools will not be called Fren ch schools. MR. C. MANNESS: Is there a correc tion then to be made in the Order-in-Council, Mr. Speaker? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I think it is probably an appropriate term tor that as an individual school. 121 Bankruptcies of farmers MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Roblin­ Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable First Minister. Mr.

Speaker , in support of the resolution of mine which is on the Order Paper today, in light of the serious escala ting numb ers of farmers that are going bankrupt in this provinc e, I wonder if the Premier and his government have any plans of any kind whatsoever to get involved in this issue and hopefully save some of the problems that's in the second page of today's Free Pre ss, "Manitoba Farmers Walk Away From Risky Business, Farmers Forced From Land Grandfather Broke From The Bush." The numbers are escalating almos t on a daily basis and I am wondering if the First Mi nister and his government have any plans to get inv olved immedia tely due to the urgenc y of this problem.

A MEMBER: No farmer will be allowed to go bankrupt. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, let me assure the honourable mem ber, and I thank the honourable member for his question this morning on this very important issue, similar questions were raised a couple of days ago which the Minister of Agriculture has already indic ated his direct involvement on behalf of the government; and ce rtainly insofar as this government is concerned , we are prepared to take additional steps because, Mr.

Speaker , the initial pric e for grain that has bee n proposed by Ottawa to the farmers of Western Canada, in our view, is inadequate. Mr. Speaker, the prices respecting the grains of We stern Canada are very muc h subject to concern on the part of this gove rnment, as indeed I assume the part of all prairie governments and the extent of the im pact that the announcements can make on the western agricultural scene, the im pact on the rural communities of the prairies, Mr.

Speaker, it is an issue, it is a concern, I think, of all western farmers, western rural commu nities, western gove rnments and they will be - and the honourable member may rest assured that there will be every opportunity undertaken not just by the Minister but by myself and by others - to bring clearly to the attention of the Federal Government that, in our view, the initial payment is too low, that there is an overly cautious approach on the part of the Federal Government in respect to the announcement that has been made in regard to the initial price of grain. MR.

SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Roblin­ Russell. I hope he is not going to anticipate something which is set down for debate. MR. W. McKENZIE: I beg your pardon? I didn't hear you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I trust that the honourable member does not intend to ask questions about a matter which is put down for debate. The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell.

Thursday, 19 April, 1984 MR. W. McKENZIE: That's correct, Mr. Speaker, I don't intend to deal with the resolution which is on the Order Paper in my name today. I wou ld like to deal with the ma tter of farm bankrup tcies with the First Minister. I am going to ask the First Minister if he is prepared and is his government prepared to set up a commit tee of Cabinet, or a committee of this House to immediately go out and tour this province and let's get to the heart of this problem and see if we can't save some of these young farmers today that are walking off their land, or being forced off the land.

Agriculture is the No. 1 industry in this province, Mr. Speaker . I look at this Throne Speech, I look at the programs of this government, I don't think we're doing half enough for agriculture in this province. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Sp eak er, the honourable membe r's question, in fact, does dramatize the extent of commun ication that has taken place by members on the Treasury Bench, the rural areas of this province, touring, communicating, responding to the concerns of Manitoba farmers. And, Mr.

Speaker, I am not going to -though I'm tempted to -spend some time listing the various initiatives that have been undertaken by this government, important and crucial initia tives. Mr.

Speake r, the honourab le member may rest assured that, in fact, this government, its Minister and all the responsible ministers, will be pursuing this matter with a vigour that will be unparalled insofar as the lack of vigour that was demonstrated previously when they had responsibility for agricultur al affairs in the Province of Manitoba, when they were the supposedly leadership and representative of the farm co mmunity in the Province of Manitoba; when they, Mr.

Speaker, provided do-nothing leadership insofar as the farmers of Western Canada, despite the difficult times that continued for the Manitoba farmers throughout that period of time, as well as at the present time. Careerstart applications MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker , in light of the shoddy performance of this government and the programs that have failed miserably across rural Manitoba, can I ask the Mi nister of Employment, what happened to the busi nessman in Gilb ert Plains who put in under Careerstart for four people, three unemployed people in the village and one student and when the application came back it was turned down and he was granted one-half a person? I wonder can the Mi nister of Employment tell me what happened in that case in rural Manitoba. A MEMBER: Tell them about the overall program, Len. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The Honourable Mi nister of Employment Services. HON. L. EVANS: Mr . Sp eak er, I can advise the honourable member that we have had thousands of applications from small busi ness and non-profit organizations throughout Manitoba for assistance under Careerstart, and indeed it is turning out to be a very successful program this year. lt is simply impo ssible 122 to give every businessman, every business, the amount of money they might like to have and we think it is prudent to spread assistance around as much as possi ble.

Therefore, in some cases, we can't accommodate the business person involved, the small businessman involved, to the extent that they might like. But havir.� said that, Mr. Speaker, I can assure the honourable members of the House that we'll be putting thous and s of young people, thous and s of young Ma nitobans to work this summer who woul dn't necessarily be working otherwise. I think in the process we're helping the small business people of this province enormously, including in the good Town of Roblin. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, a final question. lt wasn't the Town of Roblin, it was Gi lbert Plains.

Can I ask the Minister if he supports the arguments of his staff in the Dauphin office that the reason that these unemployed people and these students can't be put to work is because there's no money in the fund? HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Speak er, we have made available, .. or are making available more or less, approximately , the same amount of money that "vas made available last year and we're doing our very best to ensure that we're accommodating the demands from the business community from all over Manitoba, whether it's in the North, whether it's in the Parklands region, Eastman, or wherever else to do our very best to help young people obtain work this summ er. At any rate, Mr. Speaker - (Interjection) - Well we've got lots of figures.

I can assure the honourable member that we'll have as many young people, if not more, working this summer than we did last summer. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Business Development. HON. S. USKIW : Mr.

Speak er, the questions that the Honourable Member for Roblin posed impinge very much on the whole of the business community of Manitoba because I think we are all in agreement that the No. 1 business in Manitoba is, indeed, agriculture and everything else stems from that. • I would like to point out to the Member for Roblin • and members opposite that about 10 days ago I gave a speech to the dairy co-ops in Mani toba wherein I zeroed-in on the very issue that the member raises and indica ted at that meeting that probably what is needed in Western Canada is a coalit ion, an effort on the part of all political persuasions to make some fundamental changes to The Western Canada Gr ain Stablilization Act.

Mem bers opposite will recall the act that was brought into the House of Commons by the then Minister for Agriculture, the Honourable Alvin Hamilton, some two dec ,des ago and, under the provisions of that act, Mr. Speaker - (Interjection) - No it's not a speech, it's an answer to the question that the Member for Rob!in posed. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. The Honourable Member for Virden on a point of order. MR. H. GRAHAM: Is the honourable member addressing the Order for Return of the Honourable Member for Roblin? Is he debating that?

Thursdey. 19 April, 1984 HON. S. USKIW: No, no. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House le ader on the same point. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Speak er, to the member's point of order. The Minister is obviously, as a designated acting Min ister of Agric ultur e, pro viding further information to the Member for Rob lin-Russell about a question that the Member for Roblin-Russell views as a very serious question and the concerns that the Minister of Business Development and Tourism shares. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The House is hearing the answer from the Minister of Business Development who will not, I'm sure, turn the answer into a speech. HON. S. USKIW: Certainly not, Mr. Sp eaker . I simply wanted to remind mem bers of a good piece of legislation that was put on the books by the then Minister of Agriculture, the Honourable Alvin Hamilton, good only to the extent that there was a willingness on the part of the Government of the Day to exercise on that act whenever the need arose.

The tragedy of it was, however, that very few Ministers wanted to use it to its maximum in order to support agriculture when agriculture was in crisis from time to time. Now, Mr. Sp eaker, we had brought in a new act which we now contribute to. The problem with that is that it is not adequate to deal with the volatil ity, if you like, of agriculture in Western Canada. MR. H. ENNS: Otherwise known as the peaks and valleys. HON. S. USKIW: Very good point that the Member for la keside makes.

The fact that we're dealing with international pricing mechanisms, the fact that we have an inflationary factor that has been very severe on agriculture, Mr. Sp eaker. I would like to invite members opposite, in response to the questions put by the Member for Roblin, I would like to invite members opposite to participate with us in redressing that issue through pressures on the Government of Canada to indeed make very important changes to The Grain Stabili zation Act. Weight limits on bridges MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member . for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Th ank you, Mr. Sp eaker.

My question is to the Minister of Highways. Mr. Spe aker, there are some large number of bridges that cross provincial roads within my constituency, and I'm sure many constituencies within southern Manitoba, that have 14 ton maximum weight limits imposed on them. I'm wondering if the Minister can tell me whether in fact there is any long-run plan, in effect, that over time will see increased the maximum carrying weights of these bridges. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Well, I think the honourable member does not presume to believe that we're going to have a way of increasing the weight limits on those existing bridges. They're going to need replacement and if that's what he's saying, if we have a plan of replacement, certainly there are a number of those that will be included in the construction program this year. When it's tabled in the legislature the honourable member will be able to question that in detail during Estimates process.

We are also looking at a long-term program to deal specifically with bridges because we realize that that is a growing problem out there across Manitoba, not only in the area of provincial bridges but certainly under provincial responsibilit y of the Department of Highways, but also under the Department of Natural Resources, water resources bridges, as well as for a number of municipalities as well.

We are looking at ways to assist the municipalities as well as our own jur isdiction with regard to bridges because we realize that that is a problem that is growing across Manitoba and one that is very difficult for them to cope with. 123 Cankerworm infestation MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: I have a question for the Minister of Environment if he is the appropriate Minister to answer this. Mr.

Spe aker, it is reported the province is going to be facing the worst canke rworm infestation in a good many years, could the Minister of Environment indicate whether the Provincial Government will be providing any assistance to the City of Winnipeg for spra ying, and whether any spraying will be undertaken by the province outside of the city? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mini ster of th e Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Sp eaker.

I've had a meeting with the representative for the Environment from the City of Winnipeg last week and, at this point in time, there has been no request made to that effect. Perhaps a future meeting will take place soon as it is becoming increasingly evident that we will be facing, in fact, in some areas I understand, as stated in the paper today, that in some areas the problem is already occurring.

At this point in time, as happens on the yearly basis, the City of Winnipeg submits its previous years spraying program, a report on the spraying program for the previous years, and the projections of what they antici pate doing for the coming year. That's basically the purpose of the meeting we had the week before last and there hasn't been at this point in time any discussion with regards to the cankerworm problem. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR.

SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Wolseley, and the amendment thereto proposed by the le ader of the Opposition.

Thursday, 19 April, 1984 The Honourable Member for lnkster has 28 minutes remaining. MR. D. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday I dealt with some of the skulduggery that the opposition is trying to perpetrate upon Manitobans of economic performance of this province.

This morning i would like to start off my comments in addressing something that I feel is a sickness in the province called hate literature, propaganda against individuals, against persons. against racial groups, against linguistic groups. lt is a campaign that has been financed from forces outside this province largely, I believe, some forces within the province as well. We have evidence, and we get it regularly in the mail, of literature more recently focused against the Roman Catholics of this province and of the world.

We have focused particularly against Pope John Paul and there seems to be very little concern over where this literature is coming from, over what is being done in the Province of Manitoba, to try and refute and to show utter disgust th;ot this kind of campaign is going on in this province. We used to perhaps laugh a bit or cry, more appropriately, at some of the anti-Semitic attempts and attacks by groups such as the Christian Defence League, such as the Canadian League of Rights against jury citizens of this country.

We have a party on this side that is committed very strongly to the respects and the integrity of the individual and of groups on religious basis, on racial basis, on the basis of their individual beliefs. We have never heard any condemnation of that by members opposite. They seem to hide from it, to try and ignore it, hoping that it will go away. Well these kinds of racist attacks, this kind of hate literature and hate propaganda does not go away when you ignore it. lt is much better to address it and hit it face on and attack it for what it really is.

There has been a shocking increase in the past year in Manitoba in dealing with hate literature. The people who feel it the most and who are aware most of what this can imply for a society I would say are generally the visual minorities, of which I am not one. The minorities who can be identified by visual means note very clearly that they will take the brunt of the attacks, if they are against people for intrinsic values and non­ visible attacks, then they certainly will follow suit to have a tax upon themselves.

By fanning distrust and negative anxieties against one minority or against one visible minority or against any intrinsic minority, you threaten all Manitobans and all citizens. The visible minorities can see so clearly of the impact on this. When a group's constitutional rights are questioned and threatened they say, what kind of rights does one have when they are not necessary guaranteed in the Constitution? If constitutional guarantees are rejected, what grounds does one have basis of security on even those measures which are constitutionally guaranteed?

We have seen the rise of right-wing groups in this province, exploiting the divisions that have been created in this province, the divisions that I would say flatly have been created in this province and exasperated in this province by the party opposite, by making every attempt they can to make cheap political gains out of 124 issues that are of perhaps some underlying anxieties that the public may have or to fear that the public may have, and by appealing to those fears and those anxieties, one fans them not only against that group . but to all other groups and all other minorities.

The Conservative cry during the last debate when we were talking and condemning them for the ringing of bells incessantly to thwart the process of democracy, and when they called that freedom is bells, Mr. Speaker, they had resounding cheers from the far right in our community, and they called it again and again and again. Those bells were fundamentally anti-democratic. They were fundamentally anti the British parliamentary system. We had the involvement in their campaign of the Canadian League of Rights and Ron Gostick.

We had the involvement as well of a Conserva tive member and a Conservative reeve and a Conser vative delegate to the last convention, Reeve Dennis Heeney from the R.M. of Elton, who actually participated with this group in hiring and renting halls for their use to spread the;r hate and their propaganda from vicious attacks against minorities - religious minoritie!> in particular - in this province. Not once did we hear condemnation from a Conservative member or of Mr. He.-.1ey and his practice of renting halls.

The Member from Minnedose has run against him once or twice and I understand defeated him and I'm glad that he has defeated him. I think that he does not reflect the people in his area, and their opinions whatsoever. We had the Grassroots organization sprung up with that ironic name, all of a sudden denying that there is any involvement of the Canadian League of Rights, even when the Canadian League of Rights brought in several thousand signatures, to try and deny that they even had any participation in their campaign of skulduggery and hate-mongering in Manitoba.

We now have evidence from the report that was in the paper the other day of the involvement of the Ku Klux Klan and if one looks at some of the quotes that came from Ann Farmer who is their - what do they call her - their chaplain or spiritual leader. How that can be a chaplain or spiritual leader is beyond me. But she says that Manitoba clansmen remain active in Grassroots but do so as private citizens and are not under the sanction of the clan. With the French language issue it's a problem whether the clan people are working on their own accord.

There are so many Grassroot right-wing groups emerging and people who are clan belong to other groups as well. But these are the sorts of people that you draw out, the people that you draw into the province as well in the sort of campaign that you ran last year or during this past year, this is the kind of results that you get, and you deny them. Your silence in efler;t is a condemnation on yourselves. The silence and J.Cism and bigotry by the advocates of racism and '•igotry is seen as acquiesence and support.

We have groups like the Citizens Coalition, another organi:j:ation made up of extreme right-wing businessmen, or a couple of them mostly financed by one person, I believe, out of London, Ontario but with the support of many others and recently the support, disgustingly so, of the Ontario Medical Association in their attack of the Medicare system with full-page advertisements in the Globe and Mail and other newspapers across the country. racism bigotry effect

Thursday, 19 April, 1984 We have garbage sent around to us. We got this in the mail last week from an organization which quotes from a true Conservative, an Edmund Burke, on their masthead, "The only thing nec essary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." And then they run out this kind of anti-Frenc h propaganda that is an insult, an absolute insult, to Canadians. it's put out and myself being an English- speaking per son, it is an embarrassment to have people trying to use the English language as a basis for attacking French in this country.

They call them selves The Alliance for the Preservation of English in Canada. - (Interjection) - You' ve got one. You may quote from it, Dave. I hope you don 't. I hope you have better sense than to quo te from the thing. You can refer to it and condemn it, but don't quote it in any kind of support for your cause. - (Interjection) - I quoted Burke, yes.

And Burke said, and listen again, "The only thing nec essary for the triumph of evil," - and propaganda and hate is evil as far as I'm concerned - "is for good men to do nothing." And I consider myself to be a good man and I'm not doing nothing, I'm standing up and I'm condemning. They obviously are not good men; they do not pay any attention to their masthead, for they propagate evil and they propagate hatred. We have, in the Cons ervative Party just rec ently here - they found themselv es having a little family feud.

If you do not belong to the Canadian family, I don't know how you can have a feud within a family if you do not believe in what Canada fundamentally is. Maybe the Member for Portage la Prairie probably knows this gentleman well, I believe he was the president of a PC organization in that area, his name is Doug Edmondson.

I heard on the radio yesterday or this morning that he has now left the Conservative Party to join the new version of the We stern Canada Concept Party, WCC, which is under a new shee t today and it's calling itself some Western Regions Con c ept We ll, the sheet will not deny them, the shee t still has holes in it.

We had Tolliver in Saskatchewan going off on similar tangents and he eventually moved towards a position that I think unfortunately some of the right-wing elements of our society would like to see and that is an assimilation of We stern Canada into the United States. it's something I reject totally as a Canadian. This new right-wing Tory philosophy that we have perpetrating not only Canada, not only Manitoba, but the U.S., Britain, to some extent other areas of Eur ope as well. One has a constant use of the old Goebbels' techniques of the big lie, the bigge• the lie the more likely it will be accepted.

They start producing this kind of absolute garbage with innuendo in it, half-truths - not even half-truths, it's more like tenth-truths- in their PC report. They talk about farm lands ownership and they state that it discrimi nates against Canadian citizens by prohibiting them from buying more than 10 acres of farm land in Manitoba. What a pile of garbage.

If someone reads this and has no background and no understanding about this, it means that I cannot buy farm land, that some other Canadian anywhere in this country cannot move to Manitoba and buy farm land. it's that sort of quarter-truths that there's a skulduggery, unfortunately, that the Conservative Party has sunk to. We saw it before; we saw it in 1977. If you remember the election campaign in '77 and the ads that the Conservative Party put out in 1977 - it was the same 125 kind of low-base technique that they used.

They used it su ccess fully then; this shall not be used su ccess fully this time, it will backfire on them. They talk about election expenses in this garbage as well, as if the NDP is the only party that's going to be financed in an elec tion, when all political candidates who get over 10 percent of the vote will receive contributions to help pay for their election expenses. They don't talk about that. They just make an allegation as if it is only the NDP that is going to be financed in an elec tion, when they are as well.

During the debate, when we questioned them whether they would submit their expenses for reimburs ement, they said, of course they will if that is the law of the land. Yet they put this kind of garbage in this here. - (Interjection) - The Member for Steinbac h said that when I questioned him when he was spe aking, and he said he would claim if it was the law of the land of the time, that he would be submitting his claim as well, that they would not refuse to submit their claims. So don't ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Mi nnedosa on a point of order. MR. D.

SCOTT: There's no point of order. MR. D. BLAKE: The member is making a statement that members on this side of the House are on record as saying that they would take the reimbur sement of their election expenses. Members on this side of the House are on record as saying, we would rescind that bill. We 're telling them, don't spend that money because we will rescind it when we come into office after the next election. So don't spend it - (Interjection) - retroactive. MR. SPEAKER: That was a clarification, it was not a point of order. The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. D.

SCOTT: Pe rhaps he should go back and read Hansard, and I don't have the date or the Hansard copy in front of me now, perhaps I'll be able to dig it up. lt was a question that I asked of a member opposite whether he would refuse to take those funds, to submit for the reim bursement and he said if it was the law that he would do it, that he would not reject the public funding for his election expenses.

There was a time, I believe in the past year - and I could be misquoting him, but the intent of his comments - this is the Member for Charle swood - when he said that the trouble with you socialists - and it was some time in the last year - the trouble with you socialists he said, accusing and looking at us, is that you believe that man is inherently good. He laughed and he said, well, we know that man is inherently bad. That is what this kind of campaign, this kind of skulduggery, this kind of duplic ity is aimed upon. lt's going after their version of the inherent bad in man, appealing to their lowest emotions.

They did it last year; they did it all during the fall; they did it during the winter months; they did it last summer for months on end of trying to appeal to man's fear, to man' s distrust, which will lead to those people, whether they have it themselves or not, but the creation of hatred in those people who are afraid and who are distrustful.

Th�rsd•y, 19 April, 1 984 This kind of sick Tory fabrications that we have here in this publication -I'd like to run through a couple of them. They talk about capital investment in manufacturing being down in Manitoba. One of the things in shipping - I believe they have a little chart here with shipments -one of the things that determines shipments, for the Mem ber for Sturgeon Creek's information, is previous investment. When we were down in 1982, in 1983, that is because of a lack of investment in their years of office in manufac turing.

What we have now is a province where projected investments for Manitoba for 1984 are up 33 percent, No. 4 in the country. Where the jobs in Manitoba in the last year in manufacturing increased by 1.7 percent -1.7 percent more people working in manufacturing in Manitoba,

whereas in Canada as a whole, the jobs in manufacturing decreased by over 2 percent. In total capital investment for the whole province, public and private sectors, Man itoba for 19 84 is projected by Statistics Canada to be No. 1 in the country. Saskatchew an, the province that calls itself open for busine ss, is only one-third our rate of investment growth fo• next year. Alberta Is expect ing a decrease of over 8 percent; B. C. a decrease of almo st 6 percent in investment next year. In priv ate investments, Saskatchewan is high at 9.6 percent; Manitoba is right behind at 7.9 percent.

The other western provinces, B.C. down almo st 2 percent; in Al berta, down almo st 9 percent. In private investment in Canada, private investment decreased in'83 over'82 in the past year by 5.5 percent, in Manitoba it increased 15.7 percent.

Those investments by the private sector and by the public sector -and the public sector has a role of investment in our society -it has a role, and you can see by the decline of the Manitoba economy, from the increases and the start of increases in unemployment under the Conservatives where they proudly stated in their Budget Addresses that they were not going to be investing in the public sector of Manitoba, that it was not a role for the public and government in investment in our economy.

They talked about it here -this is a press release from six years ago, April 14, 19 78 and this is Don Craik, their great Minister of Finance at the time, talking. He says, "lt was the government's intention to improve Manitoba's comparative position by limiting both direct and guarant eed capital outlays to the greatest extent possible." In other words, reduce capital spending in the Province of Manitoba on behalf of the Government of Manitoba. Get the public sector out of business, is what they said. Well, they got themselves out of office by getting the public sector out of business.

The public sector in this province above most other provinces has a very strong role in the economy and will continue to have such. They talked about reducing their debt burden to bring it in line, and yet as I showed last night, the Tories ran to an election and when they published materials, they don't even have the colours right of what years were their Budgets and what years were the NDP Budgets.

When their Budgets started going and the deficits started going high for them, they called a snap election in the fall so they would not have to return the following spring with a Budget for the following year showing the kind of performance after four years, showing the state of the provincial economy that they had left. We have the capital manufacturing intentions of the largest investors in Manitoba. In capital investment alone, Manitoba ranks number four in the country for 1984 with the expectations as publi shed by Statistics . Canada.

We are up 33 percent in capital manufacturing investments versus a decrease in Saskatchewan of 4 percent and a decrease in Alberta of 5 percent. 126 I've dealt al ready with the issue of employment and manufacturing in particular , which the Member for Sturgeon Creek -although I don't think he's ever been involved in manufacturing -seems to claim to have a great knowledge about it. We actually have 147 more people working in manufacturing in Manitoba this past year than they did in the year previous.

The Tories talk -and in here there is mention of a sales tax increase and they go after department store sales in particular now when Manitoba is right at the top in Canada In retail sales increases -Manitoba is up 7.7 percent - slightly higher than a Canadian average. Saskatche wan, their retail sales only increased last year 6.4 percent; Alberta 2 percent; B.C. 2. 7 percent. Manitoba is at a rate three times the growth of the Province of Albe rta in retail sales and yet they put in here In item number 6, Manitoba ranked third lowest in all provinces in percentage cha,ges In departmental store sales. That, Mr.

Speaker, is skulduggery. That is trying to manipulate, it's a lack of information, trying desperately to pick out one little tiny aspect of a positive picture that could potentially be negative. In my feeling, it is a very positive thing because what it shows is that the retail sales, the small businesses are getting a better shake from the consum er. They have a larger percentage of the consumer sales now than they did previously because they are up substantial ly.

Department stores for one month, the month of December, may be down, but overall retail sales are up so that means that the smaller retailers that you guys like to say you support, are actually doing better. But you won't show that. You also won't show figures of the changes in the population growth in Manitoba; you won't show the positive aspects of us. You won't show -and I'll table some of these, Mr. Speaker -the change in population. You can see a decrease in population under the Conservatives and increases under the New Democratic Party years.

When they came into office just down, down, down, right down to negative growth. When they left office, there were fewer people in Manitoba than when they took office, fewer people in Manitoba when they left office after four years than when they took office. In two years of our administrat ion, we have increased the province's population to the highest level yet at 1,047,000 people,

whereas the population decreased some 6,000 under the Conservatives' four years, in our first two years, our population has increased by over 20,000 persons. We talk about capital investment by province. And capital investment, as I tried to explain to them earlier , it's ca pital investment which begets manufacturing shipments, which begets employment in manufacturing. We have Canada, percent change'84 over'83 publi shed by Statistics Canada in their projections -the highest total capital investment of any province, the highest. Yet the opposition squa wks and tries to give the impression that the Manitoba economy is not on the

Thursday, 19 AprU, 1984 rebound, that the Manitoba economy is doing somehow worse than other provi nces when our economy is performing better than any other province in this country. In particular, when one relates it to the western provinces which are most closely linked in terms of the makeup of our economy, we are doing far better. Mr.

Speaker, in my opinion, the Conservatives by these attempts, are lowering the art of politics, lowering to cheap skuldugg ery modeled after - I hate to say it but it's true - because they use the same techniques and you go back and you look at the growth of fascism in Europe and you see the same sort of techniques were used there to propagate their evil as the Conservatives are using now to try and propagate their policies. Goebbels' group voted, Goebbels mastered it and the other people are now imitating it. The bigger the lie, he said, the greater the likel ihood it is to be believed.

When one sees reports such as this, what else are they following but that basic premise? If you repeat the big lies long enough, often enough, some people will start to belie ve you and there they come to their other adage of Orwellian newspeak that ignorance is strength and if you can keep the people ignorant, if you give them garbage, if you lie to them long enough or often enough, if you put out falsehoods often enough to the people, you'll start getting some of them to believe you.

The only hope that we have and the only thing we have to be thankful for is that the right-wing Conservatives we have in this House are not in Ottawa, for their anti-democratic and nee-fascist bells-of­ freedom claim could lead to the destruction of our British parliamentary system of government in Canada. When their chosen few would rule Canada into the ground and Orwel l's last infamous newspeak slogan of freedom of slavery would be upon us. · Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEA KER: The Ho nourable Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I've been disappointed this morning as I sat and listened in this House to the speech from the Member for lnkster. I don't think it worthy to dignify some of those remarks by even referring to them and doing, as is often the process of debate, of some back and forth discussion. I think that it ill-behooves any of us to perpetuate some of the remarks that he has passed by deigning to repeat them.

Otherwise, it's a pleasure to enter into this debate in this new Session of the Legislature of Manitoba and to put on the record a few remarks concerning the Throne Speech and how it will affect my constituenc y, the constituency of Glad stone. Before I get into remarks on the Throne Speech I would like to say a few words to my constituents.

I would like to express to them some of my appreciation for their support during the last Session of this Legislature, through the long Session of the last Legislature, for their comments to me re garding the various pieces of legislation that were dealt with during the Session, and their encouragement to me during the days and months of the language debate. Many of them phoned me and wrote to me and visited me 127 and expressed their views on the su bject and it was very helpful to have their input.

The Constituency of Gladstone weathered the last year's extensive heat and drought problem in varying degrees throughout the constituenc y. Some commun ities did have fairly good crops, while in other areas the heat took its toll and caused a great deal of hardship. Many of the farmers are having difficulty getting financing for this year's crops and you would notice, in a quick glance through any of the weekly newspapers from the various areas in the constituency, that even the most casual observer would gain the knowledge that many farmers cannot manage to stay in busi ness any longer.

There are numerous ads, much advertising of auction sales to advertise machinery and equipment, and this I find a sad note on the saga of agriculture in this province because it is sort of a weathervein, you might call it, of the economy when there are a lot of auction sales in a farm community in the springtime. lt's an indicator that a lot of people are having trouble. Now, Mr. Speaker, in studying the lengthy document read in this House on the 12th of April, one searches in vain for any real indication of what is really going to happen in this province during the current Session and in the year to come.

I'd always been under the im pression that a Throne Speech was the indicator and outline of what the government's plans or intentions were for the coming year. A MEMBER: What direction are they going to take us. MRS. C. OLESON: This Throne Speech deals mainly with the past, it's a history book. it's a history of what this government has done, or thinks it has done since it was elected in 19 81. Instead of hearing somet hing new all we heard was old news; old news about this polic y or that; not anything definitely new or a new direction.

This government tells us that they'll bring forth great things for the people of Manitoba, but they don't tell us what the things are. As a repres entative of a rural constituency I listened intently for promis es of agricultural polic y, to alleviate the severe problems of agriculture. What did we hear about agriculture? Very very little. On page 4 we find the government referring to agriculture as the backbone of Manitoba's economy. Just that reference, nothing more. On page 7 we find the headline "Investment in Agriculture".

Following the headline is further vital information that this government recog nizes that the farm community is important. Going on to page 8, the government deplores the low moisture levels and dry weather conditions. A promise is made to bring us up­ to-date on the moisture situation from time to time. Mr. Spea ker, in a speech which refers to the much touted Jobs Fund at least 18 times or more, why is it that we must be treated to the promise to help the backbone industry of the province by giving moisture reports from time to time? That is an insult to the farming commun ity.

I know that the constituents of Gladstone expect more and they're entitled to more than their Provincial Government, their Minis ter of Agriculture, telling them when it's raining and when it's not.

Thursday, 19 April, 1984 In the heading under the Highw ays Department on page 12, I quote from the Throne Speech: "Program of northern road construction planned by Department of Hig hways to provide Im proved access to remote and Northern communities." Now, Mr. Speaker, I'm sure we're all aware that the condition of roads in Southern Manitoba need attention as welL We are very happy to see much needed northern road construction and we know that the North needs road development, needs it vitally. We also know how neglect can cause major problems with the road system in Southern Manitoba.

One of the problems which has beset roads in some areas, of course, is the fact of rail line abandonment. There's much much more heavy traffic on the surrounding road system. When these roadbeds were designed and built that problem was not there and, as a resu lt, they deteriorated faster than would normally be the case.

I was glad to see that there is some indication in another publication, by the Min ister of Hig hways, that he intends to deal with the Federal Government on that problem. lt's very important that we preserve and impr ove the road systems throughout the entire province. lt is the lifeline of the economy and the social life of the province. We cannot afford to neglect it. Our future depends on it. The Manitoba Hig hway News of March-April, 19 84, crossed my desk the other day and I was leafing through it looking for something interesting and I came upon a double-page

article on the thoughts and aspirations of the new Minis ter of Hig hways. A MEMBER: lt must have been a short article. MRS. C. OLESON: Oh, no, it was fairly lengthy. Most of the

article was taken up with photographs of the Min ister, from this angle, that angle, I hadn't quite decided which was his best side but they were good photographs. Several of the topics he discussed related to problems that constituents of mine have mentioned to me. For example, reg ulation of the trucking industry. Farmers have expressed concern over licensing of farm trucks and the use of purple fueL They are concerned that this government may bring in legislation which was cause them to pay a great deal more to license their farm trucks. The Mini ster will have to pay close attention to this aspect if he does as he states in the

article that he intends to do, is to come up with a definition of "farmer". He will have to be careful that he does not penalize the farmer who has to get part-time employment, or other off-farm income, in order to remain in the business of farming. Of course, that is a prob lem in the Assessment Br anch as wel l. Ma ny farmers find thems elves in this position, in order to be able to afford to farm they have to have income from somewhere else and they get caught in the

definitions and the bu reaucracy and it ends up costing them a great deal of extra mo ney. Now the question of hauling of dangerous goods is another one of concern to my constituents. I realize that the Minister must work this out with his federal counterparts and I hope that when he negotiates this he will bear in mind that all the reg ulations in the world 128 dealing with loads, and when and where they can be hauled, will be of little value if the driver, who is driving the rig, does not have adequate training and a responsible attitude to what he or she is doing.

One of the problems mentioned to me by truckers in my constituency is that the smaller trucking firms have a great deal of difficulty and they're in a no-win situation when it comes to training drivers. As soon as they have invested the time and money in training a driver he or she is hired by one of the larger trucking firms and the investment is lost Perhaps the Minis ter has some suggest ions to help in this situation. Small trucking firms provide a vital service to the smaller centres in the province.

Many busi nesses depend on these services for they are the li felines to small commu nities, since the railways are not hauling the type of freight they used to, and the trucking Industry is a very vital part of this province so, of course, we go back again to the problem of highways. So it's all intertwined in imp ortance and one relies very heavily on the other.

In the Throne Speech that dealt with Emplo yment Services and Economic Security, I noticed on Pages 8 and 16 mention of plans under way for training programs to assist people who r . .... ed retraining while they are empl oyed already, and to assist welfare recipients to be self-sufficient and to assist others to upgrade their skills so that they can obtain jobs. Now this could not really be fairly called new initiative.

That sort of program has been going on for a long time. lt's to be. hoped that the people being trained or retrained will actually be able to have jobs to go to when they come out of this training. I think we've certainly heard, this morning during question period, we read in the paper and we note from personal experience, that a great many people are having difficulty finding jobs; and if we're training people for jobs we must have some sort of assurance that their particular expertise will be of value to them when they get out of the training.

I know we all know of stories where people have been retrained through these programs over the years, through the community colleges and so forth. When they get out they can't find anything related to that particular job and someone who has, for instance, taken a great deal of training at public expense to be trained as a plum ber, for instance, finds himself working in some thing totally unrelated, if they can get a job at all. These are the things, of course, that are difficult to predict, but which certainly merit the study and time that could be taken to study them.

There's no point in having all this expertise if you have nowhere to apply it. Now, also, on Page 8 of the Throne Speech, in reference again to the Department of Emplo yment Services, I find the quote: "My government will increase its efforts to ensure that both institutional and job related training are accessible on an equitable basis to all Manitobans." I'd hope so, Mr. Speaker. I certainly would hope that these jobs and this training Is handled on an e quitable basis. In this context all the government is really saying to us is that they're going to comply with The Human Rights Act.

Su rely, they don't need to put that sort of thing in a Throne Speech. that should be a foregone conclusion. If you have a program then there is going to be equal access to it But then again, you know, there may be some merit to stating these

Thursday, 19 April, 1984 th in gs once in a while, even in Throne Speech es, because perhaps by example, because it is stated someone will read it and maybe the education process in human rights will go on. I th in k one major goal of that sort of organizati on, that sort of co mmissio n, is that some day they will work thems elves co mpletely out of a job. We all live in hope of that sort of th in g, but I th in k it probably is a long ti me comin g, human nature bein g what it is and ther e is a great deal of educati on and perseverance needed in that department.

I really cannot find a great deal more to say on the Throne Spe ech. lt was long on words and short on substanc e. The only ones to applaud it were its authors. The NDP members certainly tr ied vali antly to give the im pressio n that th is Throne Speech was the answer to all their problems. The Member for lnks ter didn't really try all that vali antly because I don't think he referred to it, unlesS of cour se he did in the earlier part of his speech last night, whic h I unfortu nately missed. I hope for the sake of Manit obans that the government is right.

We, in Manitoba, the people of Manitoba, do need somethi ng ch eerful to hear about and I hope the gover nment is right in the ir enthus ia sm over th is Throne Speech. But as I say, the only ones that I have heard applaud it are them selves.

Let's hope as the days go by and as ann ouncements are made in this House and elsewhere and as the Budg et is in troduced that the people of Mani toba will hear some definite policies and some evi dence of real plans for the future of agriculture in this provi nce, some real plans to encourage small business, and some hope for the students coming out of our uni versi ti es, some hope for long-term employment, not just ch eering about the Jobs Fund in its short term, make-work jobs. lt's very frustrating for young graduates as they look for jobs, jobs that aren't there and they get frustrated by cont in ually looki ng and kno wing that there probably are no jobs there.

As they're going about searching, they're co nti nually bom barded by - mind you I haven't heard them so much lately on the radio - but they're cont in ually bein g exposed to signs pronoun ci ng the marvels of the Jobs Fund and the glories of that, beauti ful green signs that attra ct your attent i on. But I know that if I were looking for work in vai n I would be just a little anno yed at the money that's bein g spent on those si gns, to say noth in g of all the other adverti sing, if I were looki ng for work and not able to find it.

The spendi ng on the Jobs Fund adve rtisi ng will soon seem to many of the students and others, as it is seen to many of us, that if it were ch ann eled in to actually the cr eation of jobs, if a great deal of that money that's being used for adverti sing was cr eat in g jobs, then more people could find work. I guess it provi des work for the advert i sing people and sign putter uppers, etc ., but it certainly doesn't help the many people, many students and others in this provi nce who are search ing in vai n for employment. Thank you, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to address some of these top ic s and co ncerns whic h are of interest to me and to my co nst it uents. I look forward to discu ssing some of these probably again and other subjects after the Budget is introdu ced. There were a few topics that I will be menti onin g .

I know that many of my co nst it uents are phoni ng me and writing me and sendi ng petiti ons co ncerni ng the 129 lotteries department. lt seems that with further in trus ion in to the social life of the co mmunities, the ch anges in the regulat io ns co ncerni ng bingo is causin g a great deal of concern, partic ula rly amongst senior citi zen groups, and I th ink we will, on th is side, be asking a lot of questi ons and probably speaking on that during the Budg et Debate and other debates that come through this House. I look forward to the rest of the Sess io n.

I lo ok wi th ant ici pation to what wi ll be happeni ng in the way of legislat ion. I'm anxi ous to see some of the bills that have been promised us. I think it was in the Throne Speech, I ca n't remember for certa in now, that there is legislat ion coming in to deal with herit age buil dings and so forth. I'd be very in terested to see that and to see how it will affect some of the cu ltural and herit age groups and buildings throughout the prov in ce bec ause tha t is a very in teresti ng area.

So we will look with antici pati on to what is coming and hope that there is something to be of benefit to all Manitobans. But of course, I will be look i ng

part icula rly that wi ll benef it my own con sti tuency. Thank you very much. MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER, P. Eyler: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Spea ker. I, too, rise and am looki ng forward to co ntr ib uti ng to the debate on the Speech from the Throne. I extend to you and to the Speaker the cu stomary cou rtesies at the beginning of the new Session and assure you of my co-operati on in comple ti ng in an efficient way a most product ive Sessio n. This Session, our thi rd Sessio n, will be heav ier on the program side than on the legislative side.

I th in k the Throne Sp eech did outline in general for a more detai led presentat ion later as the Sessio n unfolds, the broad outlines and the philosophical base for the programs that will be forthc oming. I would like to co mment first on what I th in k are the qual it ies of the overall strategy. I thi nk the first qua lity that must be ackno wledged and which I th ink is absolutel y essenti al, given the problems that face Manitoba, the econ omic and the social problems in a rapidly changing world, Is the quality of realism. I th in k, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that the analys is of the real problems that face us as a commun it y, the ch angi ng economic conditions in the nati on of Canada, Indeed in the rap idly changing in ternat ional syst em, req uire a lot of rethi nking and a very realistic facing of the und erlying facts and the real, not only opportunities for in it i ati ve in development in Manitoba, but also a realistic recognition of the limitat ions of a Provi ncia l Government actin g in a broader nati onal and in ternat io nal scene.

That is not to present an att itude of helplessness or a lack of co mmitment, but merely a realistic definit ion of what areas we can work in effectively together and what areas we can only press polit ical jurisdicti ons at other levels to alter some of their policy direction and act ions. The other qualit y, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I thi nk is im portant in the program is the quality of balance, the desire to promote a strong economic thrust, but to do so in co -operati on with the major groups in society. lt

Thurad•y, 19 April, 1984 is not an approach that says only one side has a major role to play, that somehow the other people, the unemployed, the less skilled, the people who to date have not been major decision maker s in the economic development field, must only stay, cap in hand, and wait for the crumbs that may fall their way. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, the programs build in increasing opportunity for all the people, all the major actors, whether it's workers, whether it's government, or whether it's business, private sector, to play a role in this co­ operativ e effort of building a stronger economy in Manitoba.

And this is done, Mr. Speaker, not only because we think it is fair and ethically correct to include everyone in and to develop a co-operative process, but because we think it makes good economic sense. lt's an illusion to think that an economic development program which concentrates solely on the initiativ e of the people at the investing end of the operation will necessarily generate the best benefits. If there continue to be a large number of people who are unemployed or disaffected or undertrained for the new economy of the ;uture, they will still be a cost to society.

They will be a cost without any parallel opportunity for their input. That's crazy economics. lt only makes sense to include everyone in and to build programs tha t ena ble all the gr oups to make a contribution to that development, not just to be what some people call a freeload rider, but in some cases people are not given any option, but to liv e on assistance, to live without hope, to live without the appropria te training they require in the changing economy. So those are the qualities tha t the government program has. When we get down again to the economic program, we have looked at the fiscal realities.

Again, a Provincial Government does have certain opportunities and certain limitations. We may not like it, we may wish it were not so, but we do have a dependency on the credit granting and credit rating forces in the country and in the country to the south of us. lt's a fact of life and we must conduct ourselves with some weighting of that reality.

Another key reality we must look at is the business cycle reali ty, the fact that there are ups and downs in the business cycle, tha t the heavy increase in expenditure in government that was appropriate when we were at the trough of the business cycle in 1982 and in 1983 is not necessarily the most appropriate strategy and approach for us to adopt now. The other economic factor, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that we must pay attention to is the structural weakness of the Manitoba economy and the things that need to be done not only to addr ess the historical weakn'3sses, but some of the weaknesses that are emerging as Manitoba's role in the national and international economy is undergoing change. If we do not look honestly at what those are and seek out conscientiously the new opportunii ies, Manitoba may well drift off into being a backwater on the Canadian scene. The way that we believe this economic development can occur, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, is at all points in our initiatives, to build the partnersh ip, to identify clearly that there is a role for business, for investment and innovation and seeking out of special new marketing opportunities. There is a role for government as a balancer, as a catalyst and in some cases as an initiator.

And there is a role for workers, not just as passive hands or feet who are employed to do what they are told, but as people with ideas, with energy, with creat ivity . to contribute to the development of the province and who must, in the decision making and in the benefits of the development that occurs, be active partners. 130 On the :;ncial side, because the economic strategy must be balanced out with what we are doing on the social side, we must look at the needs of the groups who are not always able to assist themselves.

We must continue to reassess the way we spend money in the social programming to assess its efficiency and its effectiveness and the maintenance of these programs when the economic times are as difficult as they are now and when our fiscal capacity is not growing as rapidly as we would like. lt's not just a question of keeping the lid on but of continually reasse ssing how we deliver those programs, whether there's a better way to spend the current dolla rs, and whether we can involve people more in helping themselves.

I think the social programs -we do talk a lot about maintaining them, but I don't think it's maintaining them in a static state. lt's a question of looking internally within those programs as we arC' doing in health, in education, in community services, to keep seeking out better ways to package the programs, to involve people at the community level and to get the most effective result from the dollars spent. Mr.

Speaker, when we work on the specifics of an economic strategy it is important to know where, as a province, we'v e come from, what the external conditions are and what the future opportunities are, and then to define the roles for each of the major actors. His torical ly, Manitoba did develop from· the natural resource end, but not in a vacuum.

Much of the early development in agriculture was completely dependent on there being government initiative, whether it was a matter of setting up transportation links, giving grants of land, assist ing with the early provision of money to get the land cleared and to get started, it was a partnership at that level. One of the difficulties that has emerged in that sector is that from an early da y, perhaps because we did have such a well developed transportation system, we became very dependent on exporting our raw materials out of province and not always doing the processing and the value-adding here.

We also imported the inputs too, whether it was agriculture or mining or forestry, we imported too many inputs from out of province. As a result, although we have have relatively more manufacturing value-added activity in Manitoba than is developed in the three provinces to the west, and that's been accountable for our relatively stable passage through the recent recession, still we have an unba lanced economy in Manitoba where our exports are falling sadly behind our imports.

That kind of imbalance in the structure of the economy is not going to disappear overnight, but it _is going to require careful attention on the promotion of export, on the import substitution side, on the promotion of business formation to serve our local industries here. What we have put together is a total integrated program to deal with all those very important factors in the economic development process. As I said, the current situation does confront us with imba lances. We are importing a great deal more than

Thursday, 19 April, 1984 we are exporting. Our past reliance on exports of raw materials, whether it was minerals or agricultural product is in jeopardy as it never was before, and not in jeopardy because we don't still have those products, but because the growing competition on the international level is altering the price structure. So the prices that we are able to secure for those materials do not automatically sustain the existing cost of production and. in some cases, are presenting us with major policy issues. 1 am pleased when I hear the members opposite raise the issue of the problems in agriculture.

I look forward to the full debate on agriculture during Estimates when we can look in detail at the kind of programs that we can actually have in Manitoba. I think one of the painful difficulties for a Provincial Government in agriculture is that we have a big package of programs relative to our size. A great deal of money is put into the agricultural sector to assist it, whether it's in dealing with the drainage problems, soil quality, water; whether it's dealing with crop insurance; whether it's dealing with marketi ng aids, technological development, management skills, assistance in credit.

There are a lot of programs thre, but the major problems that they are addressing are often beyond the provincial boundaries and those major problems will have to be addressed if they are to be addressed at all at the federal level. So although I think we should continue to do all we can for agriculture, it's a delusion to think that we can solve all the problems here, or that money from the provincial coffers will alone do it.

What often results from more and more provincial money being thrown into the agricultural sector is that we merely aggravate the problem because the high prices of all the inputs and the marketing issues, the things that need to be dealt with nation ally, the decisions about how much, if at all; the agricultural sector should be subsidized by the general revenues of the country in order to keep us competitive with other nations. Those are problems which must be dealt with federally.

So, although I believe we must continue to do what we can selectivel y, to move into more value-added crops, into more processing of food, into managing our land and our water resources as well as we possibly can, it is a delusion to think that we can solve all those problems at the provincial level. On the manufacturing side I, too, feel disappointed when I see hard-won gains in manufacturing slipping a little, but I think to say that that is something that can alone be solved by a Provincial Government is, once again, to ignore the very market system that the manufacturing industry depends on.

There has been a decline, as the Honourable Member for lnkster pointed out, a decline across the country in production, in investment. There has been international dislocations and partly for a good reason on an international level because there are emerging countries which are finding that their particular mix of large populations and developing technological skills is enabling them to mass produce many of the manufactured goods at less costs than the so-called developed world. lt presents a problem for us but it does not mean that we must turn our backs on development and manufacturing.

There are improved technological approaches, there are tremendous 131 advances that can be secured by the new technologies and by much more strategic management, looking at the global markets.

And there's no reason why, with the kind of technological supports that are continuing to be there from the technology centres that will be coming our way with the new federally supported research centre, the kind of management development skills that are continuing to be offered by our business development department, that Manitoba cannot maintain for itself a share, a reasonable share in the manufacturing area. lt's not a question of government taking full responsibility or credit for the ups and the downs, it's a question of determining the roles.

What can government most effectively do to promote manufacturing? What can private business most productively do? Are there entrepreneurial immigration programs which we can develop? Certainly we've had some initial success from the Hong Kong groups coming and bringing, in some cases from a different background, a labour-intens ive way of producing, but very market-s ensitive, a very internationally-wise approach to development, they are coming here and looking at appropriate technology for this setting and I think have a lot to offer us.

There are emerging opportunities, some of them not necessarily in producing hard goods. In the knowledge service industries, there are emerging opportunities that I know you're going to hear more of as the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology presents the details of his programs and in co-operation with the Minister of Education, talks about the new technology opportunities for local business development that relate to those two departments.

Each component of the program is not huge and glamourous, but there are interconnections and splnoffs among them and I think we'll find as the technology program is presented that we are going to have the benefit of some of the most forward-looking and appropriate types of initiatives for Manitoba that we have yet had. Again, the financial service industry is one that has been promoted primarily from the private sector in this area, and I guess this is perhaps one of the points I find most frustrating in the total debate.

Somehow when we talk about what the roles are for the different actors in the economic field, we get the feeling that it has to be one group only, and if you're saying that there Is another actor, then you're against that group. We are told we are anti-business and pro-labour. I've never heard anyone on this side say we are anti-business. What we are is pro-partnership, pro-workers, pro­ government and pro-business and what we want to work out is the roles tor each of those groups.

What we are against is a lopsided approach to economic development where we say business is the only actor, that the only way to get development and investment is to cut taxes and provide incentives and we'll just hope and pray that the benefits will trickle down and provide the jobs. We know that's an important component. We do have an investment encouragement program that will again be elaborated as the Estimates unfold. The Jobs Fund is shifting its emphasis as we're moving out of the economic downturn in the cycle to a more long-term investment role.

Again, we will not be saying that Jobs Fund does everything. If it can be

Thursday, 19 April, 1984 a catalyst, if it can be a stimulous, if it can play a complimenta ry role in different investment initiatives, that is its role. We're not looking for saying, we're doing it all and without it everyt hing would fall down. But we do believe very strongly that had there not been a Jobs Fund this past year, we would not be seeing the improved unemployment stats that we are seeing. We're not proud of 8 percent unemployment; 8 percent is more than twice as high as it should be.

But it's the fact that we're inching in the right direction when other jurisdictions are going the other way that gives us confidence that the synergy effect of having the Jobs Fund assist ing, stimulating, promoting, encouraging other investments, that it's the combination that works. In addition to that improvement, I hope by next year we'll start to see a little reduction in that import-export balance.

I think if we can see that closing of the gap starting and if we're able to do it by keeping many Manitobans employed and getting the new training and retraining for them as old jobs disappear and new jobs come to the fore, I think we can be very proud of what we've accomplished here in Manitoba. That's where we've come from as a province and I think the strategy for the future is based on that recognition tha t we do need growth, we do need inves tment, ther e needs to be thr ust toward develo pment.

But ther e is a role for an activist government in helping on the technology side; in helping on the managment skill side; in helping on the trade promotion and the import substitution side; promoting tourism; on the natural resource side, where we're dealing with renewa ble natural resources, ensuring that there is protection of land, soil and water quality for agriculture, that there is reforestation going on for forestry so that we're not just developing an industry for today, but keeping the potential of that industry on so future generations can benefit from it.

Alon g with our preoccupation with grow th, will continue to be the preoccupation with fair distribution, not just on a sort of shallow compassion, but because what is the purpose of an economic development strategy, what is the purpose of economic development if it isn't full employment for people, if it isn't training so more and more people can have access to the jobs created. If it's going to require more prog ressive taxation so that the people at the bottom aren't getting hit in all respects, then we will try to move in that direction.

If it's social assistance so that it's at a level that enables people to live in some dignity and with some hope, and if we can link that with programs that help those people to get the training so they can become again contributing members of this society; if it's a close-the-gap policy on the income side where in difficult times, wherever possible, we're able to see that the people at the lower end of the scale aren't the ones who are paying the entire cost of tough economic times; if we can build in those distributional elements along with the economic growth and thrust, keep the balance in the economy and enrich it with all the cultural programs that give vibrancy to the everyday life because people do not live by bread alone, they do need the richness that comes from cultural expression and I su bmit that this is not a one-sided or simpl istic approach. it's not a trickle down, cut taxes, leave it all to the private sector, don't worry about distributional issues till we're all rich again; it's a practical and compassionate and tough economic strategy based on the realities, willing to look at the problems and the . weaknesses and address them patiently, thoroughly and 132 with real hope and vision for the future.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, J. Walding: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I arise today in support of the amendment to the Throne Speech which was presented by my leader and I daresay it's not very difficult for me to rise in my place and debate this Throne Speech, one of the most shallow, barren pieces of paper I have ever seen in my many years in this Legislature as being offered to the people of this province as their future destiny for the rest of the term of this government. Mr.

Speak er, the first part of my leader's amendment says the government's failure to provide a rational long­ term view in dealing with the economic and fiscal matters of the province is a concern on our side, and I only have to cite to the honourable members is the problem of the Jobs Fund is mentioned some 20 times in that document. If that's the future destiny of this province, God help Manitoba. Mr. Speak er, maybe before I do comment, I would like to wish you well, Mr. Speak er, in the year ahead and during the Session.

I am not known as one that rises in my place very often to quarrel with the way you handle the decorum of the House. I'm from a pretty quiet type of area that are not known to upset the decorum of this Chamber so I certai nly wish you well as we proceed through this Session. I also would like to congratulate the Mover and Seconder of the motion. I enjoyed both the add resses and I've read them very carefully . I was somewhat humoured by the Member for Wolseley's conversations with taxi drivers as she toured our great country. I wonder, Mr.

Speaker , if she's ever taken the time to ride in a taxi in Winnipeg and see what they think of this government. I did take that opportunity during the last Session on, I think, three occasions just to see what the feeling was of that elite group, the taxi boys. General ly, Mr. Speaker, they can tell you what the actual facts are and what the general consensus of the public is more than anybody I know of. I have yet to find a taxi driver in this city, our capital city, that has any good words to say about this government, which is most unfortunate. Mr.

Speak er, the Member for Rupertsland, I was keenly interested in his comments. I wished he had taken a little more time to explain in more detail to me what he is talking about in this matter of the different forms of government that the aboriginal people and the Mefis people are seeking. I have heard the comment addressed time after time after time but I still don't understand what are you talking about, this form of government that you are seeking. Well, Camperville used to be in my constituency and I know -1 guess he'd be the Prime Minister there -Mr. Ferdinand Guib oche, real well, a long-time friend of mine.

He was a lib eral

but we still got along when I was the MLA. I notice comments from Ron Richard in one of the newspapers, who was another long-time friend; he was mayor also. I unde rstand the problems of Campervllle because that form of government under these Northern communities has never worked well and they certainly have problems in Camperville. All the time I was their MLA, they consistently drew to my attention the many limitations of that format. I don't think that's the type of government that my learned friend, the Member for Rupertsland, is talking about. I would sincerely hope that some day, Mr.

Speaker, he will arise in his place and elaborate to us in the House what the aborigin als, the Indian people are talking about with this form of government that they are striving for at this time, because I have a lot of people in my constituency asking me. Unfortuna tely, I am not able to advise them in detail what the matter is all about. Mr. Speaker, to get back to what I was talking about, the motion by my leader, the first part of it was the government's failure to provide a rational long view in dealing with the economic and fiscal affairs of the province.

I have a hard time finding any economic and fiscal guidelin es for the future because of the fact that they've built their whole future on the Jobs Fund. As I said earlier, the Jobs Fund is mentioned in that document 20 times. Can you imagine that that's the best that this government can offer for the people to build their hopes on and build their futures on, that this Job Fund is going to lead us out of this terrible, economic fiasco that we're facing at the present time? The second part that my leader mentioned, Mr.

Speaker, was the government's continuing failure to demonst rate any commitment to deal with the serious problems that exist in the agricultural sector in our Manitoba today. That came out loud and clear in the question period this morning, today's newspaper. The second page of the Winnipeg Free Press is filled with people that are having problems and going bankrupt in the farming operation. I'll deal with that later on in my comments. The continuing failure of the government to attract priva te sector investment for the esta blishing of meaningful long-term jobs In Manitoba.

I raised that this morning, where this ded icated business man in Gilb ert Plains who has built his busine ss up to some 13 emplo yees, manufacturing agricultural product, makes an application under this Careerstart Program for four people, th ree people that were walking around the streets of Gilb ert Plains unemp loyed and one student. Wha t answer did he get from the staff in Dauphin? His application was turned aside because they don't have any funds.

You talk about a government with all it's advertising and the blips and the big stories that they're telling with people coming on television saying, what a great thing this Careerstart is for the people. lt's a farce. I asked the Ho nourable Min ister to call my friend in Gilbert Plains - I gave him the phone number - and try and convince him that the Careerstart Program is working in this province. it's not. it's not working. it's all window dressing. So I have no problem, Mr. Speaker, in supporting my leader's comments on that subject matter. The next thing it mentioned, Mr.

Speaker, that we're concerned about is the government's contravention of the statutory provisions of The Financial Administration 133 Act. We are, by this government going into the Cabinet room there, voting themselves a $1. 5 billion Special Warrant, the highest one ever known in this province, without the legislators being allowed to discuss it or deba te it In any way, shape or form which was understandable because the House was not sitting - but not a Special Warrant of that magnitude. Certainly they can go ahead and do it. What if they do? The next time, Mr. Speaker, what If they vote three-quarters.

They've got the guts and the courage now to vote $1. 5 billion to themselves without Parliament. Supposing next time they go and spend 75 percent of their supply money for the year ahead and the next year they go 100 percent. We don't need democracy; we don't need this House; we don't need this Legislature. That's my concern about this, because I know there are a lot of ML As and a lot of Min isters over there, Mr. Speaker, that don't support the British Parlia mentary System that we practice in this House. That's what scares me about these characters that called themself a government, Mr. Speaker.

I'm scared next year there'll vote them selves half the spending program for the year and the next year and finally we will have them voting themselves the complete spending program for the year in the Cabinet room. Mr. Speaker, the last

part is that, by virtue of Its failure in every field of endeavour charged to its responsibilit y, this government has lost the confidence of the people of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, on that last part of our motion, we only have to go back and look at the langua ge debate that we had. Eighty percent of the people in this province are ready to tear this government apart piece by piece. That's how bad it is out there. That's how bad it Is.

This seat belt legislation, I know the Minis ter of Agriculture was in Roblin the other night dealing with the Annual Meeting of the New Democratic Party and I guess he had himself a ball there trying to deal with all the questions that came from the members about seat belts. I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if in fact the Min ister here is going to enforce lt because I see a lot of people defying him to take them to court on this issue. I have a lot of people in my constituency who normally were law-abiding citizens, always felt that they could manage these things by thems elves.

They don't need the big hand of government to come and tell them to wear a seat belt. They are ann oyed and they are unhappy and they are deli berately leaving their belts off in hope that this Min ister will take them to court. We have the motorcycle people of course, as well, and he's got the problem right in Dauphin because I get letters from some of his constituents in Dauphin who leave their belts off and they drive right by the Minis ter when he's home on the weekends and flout his law, his seat belt law.

I'm waiting for the day he takes somebody to court and see what happens in Dauphin, especially in Dauphin. Mr. Speaker, I'm also concerned, my poor friend Bill Chornopyski. Look what he says today. The NDP tells my friend Bill, "Do as we say or get out." Now where is that coming from, no t from the Mem ber for Rupertsland, he wouldn't make that charge to our learned friend the city councillor . Who is the group over there that have got all this courage and their audacity screwed up to go and tell this learned man who has been the city councillor for many many years, either

Thursday, 19 April, 1984 you do it our way or out. Bill said he would like to do it his own way, and can you blame him for that? The Mem ber for Brandon East, the Min ister, he always likes to do things his own way. But you can't do that if you're a New Democrat, you can't do that; you have to do it their way. I wonder how the Mi nister of Education fits into that sort of a philo sophy, that she can't do things the way that she would like to do them, but I'm sure she's caught in the same web as our friend BilL Either you do it their way or you're out. Is it any wonder, Mr.

Speaker, that the polls are riding so low on this group across and the New Democratic Party in this country today when you have that kind of jargon being print ed in he newspapers across Canada. Can you wonder why any ordinary citizen would want to stand up and support an MLA or a Mem ber of Parliament who can't stand up and fight for his own people, who can't deliv er the wishes of his people, who can't represent his people because, after all, if he does like Bill did he is told to get out; he is told to get out. What about our friend Skowron?

I think he's trying to crawl back in the back door at the present time as somebody told me, but maybe the Member for lnkster will help him to get back in that Caucus, in that select group. That is strange. I'd like to see one of these Dear John letters that Bill and Alf got. I hear some of my friends out in the rural areas are getting these Dear John letters now because of the fact that they've got their dander up over the langua ges. it's strange, but yet they are the government in this province, that same party, that same group.

Well it's an inter esting story and I feel sorry for citizens like Bill, 18 years in the party. Great man, a great Manitoban, a great Canadian and, all of a sudden, because he's doing what the people in his ward told him to do, the NDP moves in and says, do as we say or get out Bill. So Bill got out, like a lot of others got out and are getting out every day. Mr. Speaker, let's deal with this matter of agriculture that I raised in the question period this morning. One of the most serious problems that we have in this province today is the economic future of our agricultural ind ustry in this province.

Agriculture is No. 1 and all the years that agriculture was healthy and able to produce grain and get a fair price for their product, everything flowed in this province. The indus try wheels turned, people had money in their pockets, we built hi ghways, we built hospitals and this province boomed with a healthy agricultural indu stry. We, Mr. Speaker, as legislators, had better listen very very quick to these problems that our espoused today all across the Winnip eg Free Press because they're real, they're serious and they're not going to go away unless we do something.

I'm thankful that my friend, the Memb er for Lac du Bonnet, came and spoke this morning briefly after the question period. We can do lots of things; we can present a resolution here, or di spatch 8 or 10 of us in the House to move down to Ottawa tomorrow and give them their support to trigger the Stabilization Fund. We can do that; we can go and meet with Al berta and Saska tchewan and set up a lob by, a western lob by, to show those eastern people that we are out here, we're alive, we're real and we've got a real problem.

We're growing food, clean, wholesome, healthy food and you can't make a buck at it, they're going broke. What's wrong? Fertilizer prices are up 15 percent to 25 percent already this year. What are the priorities, Mr . Spe aker, of this . government in this Throne Speech about agriculture? All they say is, buy crop insur ance. That is sickening, it's an insult to the farming community in this province.

But I know, and we know on this side, what a high priority agriculture has in the caucus of the mem bers opposite. it's a way down near the bottom If, in fact, it's there at all, because one only has to look and read that Throne Speech to see if all that this government has to offer for the farming community of this province for the year ahead is buy crop insur ance, then we are in real trouble. 134 I just ask the members opposite, Mr. Speaker, if we happen to have a dry year in this province, this coming year, we will have a disaster on our hands. Farmers walk away from risky business.

Can you imagine if we don't get an average rainfall in the year ahead what kind of headlines we will have in this province? That's our No. 1 indus try. Don't forget it. That's what makes this province tick. Agriculture. Mr. Speaker, can you see a forty-year old farmer from Goodwins walking off the farm today and go into the un dertaking busin ess? That's what he's doing. Can you see all these other farmers here - Mr. Maguet from Ste. Rose, a long-time friend, I know the Maguets well - forty-year old farmer forced from the land his grandf ather broke from bush.

Do you mean to tell me that th ose are not competent, able, efficient farmers - the Maguet family? They are. They've been there since day one and they've got a problem. They've got a serious problem. What are we getting out of this Throne Speech for those kinds of people? Buy crop insurance. Buy crop insu rance. Mr. Speaker, we can do lots of things. We can do lots of things. We can set up a lobby of people here. We can get some of the taxes off their backs. We can go out there and deal with the matter, but we're not doing anything I gather from this Throne Speech. All it says is, buy crop insura nce.

What a sick government. it's su pposed to have some un derstanding of the indus try of this province. What about the cattle indus try? The feed lot operators are closing their doors in this province. The reason is quite simple. The finished cattle are going across the border to be finished. You mean we can't do something about it? The problem wasn't there before. You are the government. Where's your Minis ter of Agricultur e? Let him clean up the problem. The Brandon packer says they're only running at 70 percent. What does he want to do? Go out and talk to the farmers, they'll tell you what to do.

But we're not doing that, Mr. Speaker. I like what the Member for Lac du Bonnet and I di scussed with the Member for Morris this morning that we can get unanimous consent in this House early next week and trigger a resolution here in this room to have some money paid out under the Stabilization Fund -· we can put about $15,000 in every farmer's pocket. That's one thing we can do. Why aren't we doing it? This is the government that is supp osed to be leading and guidin g us.

Here am I in the opposition, standing up and prodding tl .em and telling them what they should be doing and the y call thems elves government, Mr. Speaker?

T�y, 18 April, 1984 MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honou rable Minister of Bu siness Dev elopment on a point of order. HON. S. USKIW: I want to leave on the record that the government isn't doing anything because we had just invited the opposition earlier on today to participate with us in an effort such as the member is suggesting. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin­ Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: I raised it twice.

I congratulate the honourable member and we're all prepared and all fired up and we can surely set up a condition in this House between House leaders on Monday that we'll put tha t resolution th rough here bang bang and get some action. That's not going to be hard. But they drag their feet over there, Mr. Speak er. We met with Alberta and Sask atchewan in Regina two months ago on the very same subject matter to try and get some motivation out of this government and try and get the western provinc es to work as a team. We did.

The Member for Arthur , after we had the meeting with the Min isters from Saskatchewan and Alberta we did turn out a press release on that meeting. What happened? About a month later the Mini ster of Agriculture here comes out with the same press release. He's suppo sed to be leading. He's supposed to be the Min ister of Agriculture, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I look forward to next week to see if we can't do that and lots of other things, or set up a special Cabinet committee or a committee of this House. If you want to find where the problems are, Mr.

Speaker, I just tell the Minis ter of Agriculture, go and talk to the auctioneers in this province, they'll tell you how serious the problem is. They'll tell you how many farmers are going bankrupt everyday and there are a lot of them. There are a lot of them who aren't going to be able to put a crop in next year for the simple reason they're not getting enough money tor their grain. Why is that? Well, because of the tax load that's imposed upon the farm communit y. They're doing the best they can, Mr.

Speaker, but they can't produc e all the food in this country alone, by themselves, and be asked to pay all the taxes that they're paying. If they were in a luxury item business, if they were producing goods and services and fine clothes for wealthy people, I would not be concerned, but they are producing clean basic wholesome food, and that's where we should be putting our eggs into our baskets and support that industry . lt's our No. 1 indus try in our province and I hope the First Mini ster, and the Min ister of Agriculture, will finally recognize that they need help and they need it badly out there. Mr.

Speaker, I should also comment on this tragedy of my constituent Rodney Checkowski at Rossburn - TB in his herd. Herd quarantined in his yard since August. 1983 and they were still there until about a month ago. All the sequence of events that took place for that poor young farmer, it's a nightmar e. it's an absolute nightm are. I could put it in the record today and spell out some of the many things that have happened to that poor unfortunate farmer. He still has those cattle out there tod ay, Mr. Speaker. That is most unf ortunate.

I was called into the scene in the middle 135 of March, March 20th, and I immediately wrote a letter to Whelan, to tell him it's a federal matter. We haven't had a TB out break in this province for some 20 years. We thought the province was clear. I got called into the scene and Checkowski tells me, Mr.

Speaker, that in the Spring of 1983 he put his cattle out, he leases Crown land from the province, he put his cattle out in the pasture, went back to look at them the following week and two or th ree were dead, I'm not sure, but in that interval he found all these dead carcasses of hogs, cattle, horses, dead carcasses strewn all over this pasture land. He immediately got hold of the Min ister of Natural Resources, or the staff from the department, and espoused this problem of where did all these dead carcasses come from that were scattered all over his property, his leased land. Mr.

Speake r, he found out there was somebody who is in the business of outfitting bear hunters in the area. They went and brought these carcasses in from someplace and scattered them all across there. Si nce then they've had vet after vet out the re. The federal vets were there, the provincial vets were finally the ones that told Checkowski that his herd was infested with TB. The federal people finally in March of this year released the quarantine on his cattle, but in the meantime, he's lost 25 head of cattle, Mr.

Speaker, 25 have died and his buildings, his farm yard - the place is still infested with that type of tube