Manitoba Hansard — 6 March 1979 (Sitting 14B, 31st Legislature, 3rd Session)

31-3-14b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 28 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL. XXVII No. 148 8:00 P.M. Tuesday, March 6, 1979 Office of the Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

•. -.... • Time: 8:00 p.m. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, March 6, 1979 CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY- HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Albert Driedger (Emerson): To the members of the committee, are they prepared to start? We are dealing with Planning and Design, Resolution No. 70, $1,273,800; 3.(

a) Salaries, $997,300 - the Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, when we left off at 4:30, the minister was indicating some of the areas that the Planning Division of his department was involved in, amongst many other activities . I would like to ask the minister specifically to what degree is the Department of Highways Planning and Design involved in the work that is being debated now with respect to the rail line removal from the core area of Winnipeg, and/or the McGregor-Sherbrook Overpass? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: No, we are not involved.

A short answer to the honourable member's question is, that the question of Design and Planning with respect to the Sherbrook-McGregor Overpass is entirely within the City of Winnipeg's jurisdiction . The only involvement that the provincial government has, is the dedication of certain UT AP funds that have been available to the province, by the federal government, towards projects that involve rail lines, separation rail crossings, and certainly Sherbrook-McGregor is part of that. But we are not involved in the planning or the design of any structure involved in this instance. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. No doubt , in terms of the impact on the financial implications to the province that a structure of this nature is really only the first step in terms of providing sufficient and/or necessar y transportation links for the north end of Winnipeg residents to the rest of the city . Does the minister feel that no involvement of the Planning branch of his department will certainly forestall any further requirements, or at least any further resources which the province might want to make available to other parts of the city or the province, by being tied into many overpasses within the City of Winnipeg?

I would like to, at this juncture, ask the minister as to what the position of the provincial government, and the provinc ial Highways and Transportation Department is with respect to urban transportation and specifically with respect to the providing of links for the residents of the north end of Winnipeg, with the rest of the city. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , through you to the Honourable Member for St. George , I suppose it's a question of whether or not you recognize the responsibility and the autonomy of the City of Winnipeg in planning for their particular needs in this area.

I might add that the Department of Highways and Transportation enjoys a very good relationship with the City of Winnipeg, and in particular , with its Chief Commissioner, Mr. Nick Diakiw, recently appointed in that position, and we simply do not and in fact , it's inherent in the concept of the bloc funding that we just announced to the City of Winnipeg, that we will not and do not have a role in that kind of planning .

We have indicated to the City of Winnipeg , and their senior engineers , and their very competent staff, that X number of dollars are available to them in this instance - and I am speaking about the transportation areas - X number of dollars are available to them from the senior government, in this case, the provincial government for their purposes, and we do not intend to interfer with the city's planning for how they use their funds . So the answer to the Honourable Member for St.

George is that we do not have, in terms of the appropriation that we are now talking about - the Planning division - there are no efforts being made by the provincial Planning and Design people - in the design and the planning of the Sherbrook-McGregor Overpass, that is a city matter . 563

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The minister, in indicating that his department is not involved in any of the actual planning and design work of any of the structures that the city may be proposing as transportation links, he indicates that the bloc funding that the province has recently instituted in terms of financial sharing between the province and its urban area, largest urban area w:ithin the province, is the means by which it is able to say that the city has its total autonomy in terms of its financial priorities, that it wishes to impose or do with the funds whatever it likes .

But yet he makes the statement in his comments , that within that bloc funding , that there is a certain amount of funds that is designated entirely for transportation and there is a condition as to the limit of funds that the city may or will be able to receive from the Province of Manitoba . That appears to me to be a slight contradiction of his earlier remarks that the bloc funding is an open-ended amount to the City of Winnipeg , and provides the city with complete flexibility and entire jurisdiction over the provincial funding . MR. ENNS: Well , Mr. Chairman, you can 't have it both ways.

You either recognize what I believe to be are the legitimate requests and positions taken by the city , who have competent staff and Department of Public Works, or City Public Works, whatever you want to call it, in determining their requirements for improvements in this area of transportation corridors and bridges , etc .

What we have done through the bloc funding principle, is saying to the City of Winnipeg , these are the outside parameters of support that you will receive from the provincial government , we are satisf ied that our relationship is such that we have the necessary discussions taking place when the two come close to each other. I said that earlier on this afternoon . When the city is planning on major arterial changes that affect provincial highways and/or the perimeter highway that surrounds the city , that my Deputy Minister has no difficulty in sitting down with the Chief Commissioner , Mr.

Nick Diakiw, and we have had many meetings of that kind to determine the appropriate and proper route to travel on. But the fact of the matter is, and I think the question that the Honourable Member for St. George is asking is, am I now going to give the city $15 million for capital works and keep a lot of strings attached to it. No, we're not keeping those strings attached to it. That is part of the principle of bloc funding . We're saying to the city, these are the funds available to you, and we are prepared to acknowledge the fact that they will be used in the best way possible . MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr .

Chairman .

While the minister indicates that that is his position , can he now indicate what the position of the province or the likely position of the province will be, with respect to once the overpass , and I believe that the overpass likely should go through , but in any event , that the overpass is built , what the implica tions on the province are for futu re commitments with respect to linkages that are, as we all know , the Arlington Bridge , which is strictly restricted just to car traffic with no heavy traffic allowed on it; the Salter Bridge , which allows only single axle vehicles to travel in one lane and the other lane is restric ted to automobile traffic ; we have the McPhillips Underpass, which is in what one would probably consider decrep id condition , where it has undergone in recent times substantial work in terms of upsho ring the structuring ; and I am sure the Main Street Underpass is in likely need of substant ial repa ir.

What are the future, and is it no t a concern to the minis ter and the department , of provincial costs likely to face this province , in times when the minister is hoping to pro vide greater and better linkages for other parts of the province, and improve the road network for the transportation system in the rest of the province ; like his announcements of attempting to twin Highway 75 to the US border; likely to complete the project of twining No. 7 Highway to Stonewall; likely the projects that he has announced in dealing with Highway 59, what impact has the future cost that once you make the move of one overpass in the City of Winnipeg , which gives you the position that the railway shall remain in the heart of the city , what are the cost impl ications facing the province in light of their overall budget throughout the province when this move is made?

Has the Minister and his department done and have any cost figures with respect to what are we faced with in future years? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr . Chairman , through you to the Honourable Member from St. George , it was the City of Winnipeg that initiated the request for bloc funding . Along with that request , comes a degree of responsibility . They, now, have to priorize their allocation of funds and that really is the short answer to the honourable member's question . All the questions that the Honourable Member of St.

George raises - indeed , the very question of the propriety of expending the funds that the province has indicated that they are willing to allocate to the Sherbrook-McGregor Overpass rests on the shoulders of the city councillors as to whether or not they want to pursue on this 564 --

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 course. All I'm suggesting to the honourable member, Mr. Chairman, is that this government has, at the request of the city - at the request of the city , I underline - acceded to a bloc funding concept and that bloc funding , or the level of the bloc funding , as you would expect, is measured against the kind of support that we provide to other urban centres - Brandon , Flin Flon, Thompson.

Indeed, it's measured against the total expendit ures of public moneys for transportation throughout rural Manitoba and that will determine the level of the bloc funding, but at the request of the city, we have acceded to that request and they now have to accept the responsibility of where those funds will be expended . And if their priorities is /- the Sherbrook McGregor overpass , we are saying as the senior government , provincial government, we will not quarrel with their decision. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa . MR. BLAKE: With all due respect to my colleague , the Member for St. George, he's treading on an area here that is probably very, very close to Federal-Provincial relations in view of the publicity that has been given to this particular item in the past week or two or three in the press . And I just wondered if it's right to this particular

section of the Estimates. I sure these questions can be answered elsewhere but this has been very prominent in the press and the Federal people have become involved and I think it is very, very close to Federal-Provincial relations the matter that we are discussing right at this present moment. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman , on that same point of order Member for Minnedosa raises, I wish that he really listens to what his Ministe r is speaking about because the implications that are there for all his rural compadres in the Conserva tive caucus , that if there is a substantial amount of money that is comm itted in terms of future crossings within the City of Winnipeg, it means only one thing ., in terms of the Highways Departmen t budget.

It means less pavement and roads within rural Manitoba because there is only, I believe the Minis ter will indicate, there is only so much dollars that are involved within the Highways Departme nt as is evidenced by his budget and his presentation to the Legislature to date . MR. CHAIRMAN: On the point of order , I think possibly under Planning and Design of this question could be raised . The Honourable Minister . The Honourable Member for St. George. MR.

URUSKI: I would ask the Minister, in light of his comments whether there is a concern on behalf of his government and his Department what the implications might be, whether he has any cost estimates as to what the implications might mean once this overpass is built and what the implications are in terms of the costs or trade-offs to the rest of the Province should the requirement be, and there is no doubt , I don't think the Minister will even deny that there is any doubt that the replacement of the structu res that I have mentioned is going to have to be undertaken.Has he got any cost estimates and what are the implications for the rest of the Province?

MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, to the Honourable Member for St. George. What the Member for St. George is question ing is the capabili ty and the sincerity of the City of Winnipeg Engineering Department and their Public Works Department. They and a majority of public elected councillors have designated and have chosen to build the overpass . Now what the Honourable Member is asking me to do is, you know I am sure if it were in another context, to overrule that kind of a decision in some way or even to voice an opinion in that matter.

What I am saying is that under the concept of bloc funding, and this really is a basic position that we are giving to the City of Winnipeg a degree of autonomy , that perhaps the previous administration did not give, and in fact 1 might say, had they given that to them , we would not now be faced with the embarrassing spectacle of after having built that $22 million bridge , namely the south St.

Vital bridge, and have lead umpteen thousands of cars into nowhere and created a massive traffic jam, that we will now have to correct very shortly by not approving , by interfering with the City plans as the City had well laid out to incorporate the traffic coming off that south St. Vital bridge through an overpass exchange over Pembina . And we will correct that no doubt , the City will have to correct it within a year of the building of this major enterprise, and we simply say that our staff, the Department of Highways 565

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 staff, has the responsibility of looking after, as best they can, the transportation problems within the Province, outside of the City of Winnipeg . We co-operate with the City of Winnipeg staff where our problems meet each other . Principally, egress out of the City as exemplified on the Perimeter Highway, but we will not interfere with the City of Winnipeg Engineering staff in their requirements and in their priorities within the City of Winnipeg . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , the Minister I presume does not understand the comments I have been making.

He indicates that we are, or that I am challenging the sincerity of the City of Winnipeg . On the contrary, I am really challenging the sincerity and the underestimating of the Minister of Highways, in his really missing the very point and really attempting to defend , I would say, most of his colleagues from rural Manitoba in terms of indicating to the Minister , whether he realizes it or not, the financial implications that he is leading himself into , whether or not he wishes to dwell or as he calls it interfere in the operations of the City of Winnipeg .

I am suggesting neither, I am only suggesting that the Minister of Highways really doesn 't know where he's going . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , on a point of order , perhaps at this point I should point out to the Honourable Member for St. George, that the subject matter he is discussing is not contained in these Estimates. It has been transferred to the Department of Municipal Affairs .

If the Honourable Member wishes to discuss this subject , if he refers to the Reconciliation Statement on Page 53 of these Estimates , he will recognize that the $28,420,000 that have been transferred out of this Department now rest within the Department of Urban Affairs and that would be the appropriate place to make and raise these arguments. Quite to the contrary, to the Honourable Member for George 's suggestion that I don't know where I'm going, the Honourable Member for St. George doesn 't recognize or doesn't know what Estimates he is discussing . MR.

CHAIRMAN: I would suggest to the Committee that the point of order is well taken , that this matter could be taken up under the Minister's Salary. Othe r than that I don 't think it is related to the present area that we are discussing. The Member from St . George . MR. URUSKI: Yes. Just on that point of order , Mr.

Chairman , the Minister of Highways, it was not I who raised the concept of bloc funding and the sharing of costs and revenues with the City of Winnipeg in dealing with his Planning and Design Department , in dealing with the cost implications of the construction and the funding to the City of Winnipeg of the Sherbrook -McG regor overpass .

I indicated to the Minister and I wanted to know , and I still leave that question on the table , what is the impact to the Province of Manitoba in future costs once this move is made as to what the implications are over the next five or ten years in the reconstruction and building of future linkages because the Sherbrook overpass is not going to solve the transportation link of North Winnipeg with the rest of the City .

It is required and it should be built , but that is only the first step , and it's certainly incumbent on the Minister and he has indicated amongst those various items that his Planning Department has been involved , that they should be advising and he should be directing them if there is any direction there by the Minister of Highways to ascertain and bring to this Committee and to the Legislature and to the people of Manitoba as to what costs we're likely to face in future years as we go down the road in providing the necessary links within the City of Winnipeg and the cost-sharing .

Be it bloc funding or whatever funding that the Province may undertake. MR. CHAIRMAN: On the point of order if I may to the Comm ittee I would like to ask the guidance of the Minister whether the Planning and Design covers any aspect of the issue that has been raised by the Member from St. George. MR. ENNS: The planning and design of City structures does not fall under the purview of the Department of Highways and Transportation . MR. CHAIRMAN: Then I would ask the Member for St. . George to change his area of questioning , please . Is the Member finished? The Member for Gladstone first. MR. AAMES R.

FERGUSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . I certainly have enjoyed the few minutes that have taken place prior to now where the Honourable Member , my friend from St . George has been standing up for the City of Winnipeg , I find it very amusing that he as a Member for St. George should be fighting the City of Winnipeg problems when there isn't a City member sitting to support him . That I really do find . .. 566

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: 1 don 't think it's proper for a Member of the Committee to pass any reflection on the absence of any Member in the House. I don't think that that's parliamentary.$ MR.

FERGUSON: In that event, I do sincerely apologize and will get back to what we're talking about which is planning and design , and to just read it into the record I would like to - it says, " establishes and design criteria and plans for the development of a primary and secondary road system, which will meet present and future transportation needs economically." And I would expect that this would mean in the City and in the country so I would have to say to the Member for Ste. Rose that possibly what I was talking about should still be allowed within the gambits of what I'm talking about.

But, in any event we are very happy of the fact that we are looking forward to development of the Yellowhead Route . I do believe , and I will have to say, as a rural member, that there are other places that I think that those dollars could be spent to a better degree in my constituency and into the rural community in Manitoba. We have never seen anything like we are seeing now whereby we're running into wholesale rail line abandonment.

Our country roads are not going to handle the system and I would also like to bring out at this time that during the course of my eight or nine years of being a Member of the Legislature, the roads in my particular constituency have done nothing except go backward under this glorious outfit across from me, but hopefully we will now have at least some semblance of order and at least a little bit of fair play in the allocation of our road system. That will be one of the first.

We find that we are going to have to have upgrading in our trunk highways, as a matter of fact , one of my constituents last year got a traffic ticket because his empty truck was over the limits on that particular road and this is easy to understand . But, Mr. Chairman , we just find that we do have to have a definite increase in the allocation of funds in our area. The allocation, as far as I am concerned, is going to have to go out into our secondary roads.

Yes, it's very nice, and we're quite aware of the fact that No. 1 Highway has to be upgraded, possibly No. 4 Highway has to be upgraded - it's No. 16 as of, maybe it was Monday morning was it? But this to a rural member really doesn 't mean this much . We know what the problems are that when road restrictions come on in the spring that we have got to have more than one trunk highway.

We know that grain is going to have to move and, in many cases, farm trucks cannot carry the loads that they are loaded with , and it is not the fault of the farmers altogether either in the fact that we do not have an opportunity to move our product until a certain time on the scale of the month, or whatever the case may be, and we find that many of our people are being picked up because of penalties on the road restrictions , etc.

With this we can 't f ind any fault and I certainly can't find any fault with my constituents, because I am sure that they would be very happy to deliver their product in January , February or March ; they sure as hell don't want to wait until the first of April to have to move it, but it's beyond their control to be able to do this. I would like to, again, congratulate our Minister for the forthright manner in which they have been moving ahead in the highway design, and one thing and another and, as a comparison , I would like to just read into the record , and it's still . . . The Honourable Member for Ste.

Rose, it' s still goes along with planning and design , and I would like to quote out of Hansard. I'm going to start in the middle of a paragraph , and if I can . . . -(Interjection)- Well, I will if you'd like. But I will read from the Honourable Member for Transcona . "I think those figures are quite startling because what they are pointing out is that we have to reassess our priorities in terms of spending, that widening the shoulders of highways is not necessarily the best way to go, that those do not meet the needs of Manitobans. That what is required in Manitoba are met . ..

" I'm sorry; I'll start back at the . .. "So that these needs of Manitobans are met without blowing $175 million in highways , necessarily . I pick on highways because when you see the wide shoulders that are being paved you find that that is completely unnecessary right now." Well , if the Minister of MPIC was here or the Minister of Highways or the Deputy Minister of Highways , I would wonder . . .

I understand that we had about a quarter of an inch of rain last night on the highways , and there were trucks and vehicles piled up all over the place, if we had no shoulders on the roads, it may be very nice to sit in Transcona and say, "We don't need shoulders on the roads . " Well , who in the hell needs a shoulder on a city street? We live in the country and this kind of garbage is a bunch of crap . We certainly aren't going to buy it, and we will go a l ittle further. We will read the Honourable Member for Wellington . Again, he is planning it. A MEMBER: City boys . 567

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 MR. FERGUSON: Well, the city boys . We blew $175 million by putting shoulders on the highways. Really something, isn't it? So let's start on the next one. I would ask you where the money would be better invested. Would the money have been better invested in the removal, even at provincial expense of 300 tons of deadly arsenic chemical from the village or would it be better invested in $136 million of highway construction and reconstruction in our province? Would it be better that tornadoes should strike the Village of St. Pierre and hundreds of citizens should die in their beds?

Our good friend Doern from Elmwood came on the same way. Okay. We, as rural members , aren 't going to buy $175 million in one place and $136 million in another place . To me that looks like $300 million down the drain , because of doing some work on highways in the rural. I'd like to point out to you, Mr. Chairman , that we think that we're on the right track . We definitely have to have more roads . The railways are going out. And we may as well accept the fact that it may be because of collusion, or whatever the case may be, between the grain companies and the railways .

I don 't give all the blame to the railways but that's beside the point in this particular case. But I do commend the Minister and his department . I think we're on the right track. I think that we have something here before us right now and in quoting these two things in the record we, as rural members, our rural roads , our secondary roads, have got to be upgraded. We just have got to get our product to market. We're having enough problem moving it after we do get it to market, but we can't do it on the roads we've got. And thank you very much, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa . MR.

BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . I can only reinforce many of the comments that my colleague from Gladstone has made , and I won't belabour the Committee 's time with reiterating them because tbey parallel many of the comments that I was going to make . But as a rural member, and under this particular item in the Estimates, I think it's a time when we can possibly get a bit parochial.

And in my particular area as the Minister - and I commend him for it - is well aware , because he has been out in my area and has travelled over many of the roads which I can't really say for his predecessor, although he has probably been in my area unbeknown to me. Because I likely didn 't get the same invitation that I got from the present Minister to witness his tour of my constituency . But in my particular area rail line abandonment has hit us as hard ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister on a Point of Order . MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, on a Point of Order, what the honourable member isn't mentioning is that I made that tour despite the fact that I had severe and difficult chauffering problems. MR. BLAKE: And I can confirm that point of order , if you want to rule it in order or out of order; I can confirm the point of order as well taken, Mr. Chairman. We had a city member driving and he was a little unaware of some of the problems we have with abrupt stops in these rural areas . I have been particularly hard-hit as many, many of my colleagues in the rural areas have with rail line abandonment.

We have been suffering not only the loss of a line but the loss of many , many delivery points . I think it's not unique but it's something that I think is a little different in the rural areas that I have a particular area where there are probably ten municipal bodies , A.M.'s and towns that have banded together and formed an association called the Highway 250 Association , because they realize with the abandonment which of the Halboro-Beulah line' runs through Rapid City, which is near and dear to my heart, being my hometown , the grain has to go north or south .

They estimate 60 percent of it will go north to Newdale , 40 percent of it will go south to Rivers, a large percentage of it, while it will all find its way to 250 through some municipal roads , but eventually will find its way onto 250, which leads into both of those towns . And that particular Highway 250 Association has met with the Minister on one or two occasions.

The Minister has been out and travelled over the route and travelled throughout the area and is very familiar with it, and realizes the problem , and we know that work is going to be done on that line and I just want to say to the Minister under Planning that, what those peop le are looking for is some long-range planning that will see that road eventually completed in a time-span of years . They realize it can't all be done in one year or two or three years ; it's going to take longer than that. The area runs from Souris in the south to the Sandy Lake area, and I might add , Mr.

Minister , that Sandy Lake area is becoming one of the real strong rural tourist potential areas in the province . 568 •

• Tuesday, March 6, 1979 We can't all have Whiteshells but we do have Riding Mountain National Park , which is one of the second most popular national parks in Canada, I think. The spill-over is running into my area, which is the Sandy Lake area. There is more and more traffic on 250. The tourist potential in that area is substantial. I can recall the former Minister being in my area some time in the '71 year. I think there was a by-election at that time . There was a roadside park promised for Minnedosa. We don't have it yet, Mr.

Minister, but the group are still working on it and we may get it in the years to come . But Mr. Chairman, what I wanted to stress is that I think the people of the rural areas, especially where they are being hit by rail abandonment , and most areas are being hit as mine is, maybe not as heavily , are looking for some long-range planning , and I think it's something that in the past has been lacking to some degree and while we're under Planning and Design I think that's what the people are looking for and if that is going to receive some consideration I can only endorse it wholeheartedly.

I would like to have the Minister's comments, maybe tomorrow when he is finished taking all the questions, tonight or whenever. But that is something that my people are looking for. They're looking for a longe-range plan that is going to see that road completed from top to bottom in a time frame that's within their lifetime , of course. They don't want a 20-year plan.

But I think the department would be well-advised to look at something like that and say, "All right; I know you people are going to be unhappy now but three years from now you're going to have your end finished and the other end is going to be done after that", or whatever. Mr. Chairman , that type of planning I think is so necessary with the problems we're facing, and I realize there are many.

It's not only the railroad's problem or the grain compaNies' problem , or our problem , and it's all a matter of dollars and there are only so many dollars and they have to spent in various ways, and we have to allocate them the best we can.

But if we're under Planning and Design I want to emphasize that the longer and the stronger we can come up with planning and design programs that will keep the people in the area reasonably happy with the knowledge that their road is going to be finished in so many years, that they can take their grain to market on a reasonably good road, or their other agricultural products, that that is so vital to our particular area where we are agriculturally oriented , and my constituency is certainly agriculturally oriented . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Membe r for Crescentwood . MR. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman , I had reference made earlier that the City of Winnipeg really didn 't count and that even though we're 60 percent of the population of Manitoba and that the Minister was mentioning the bloc funding which, from my days as a city councillor , we were after the provincial government to give us greater authority, and so on, so I commend the Minister and his colleagues for entering into bloc funding . But I get a kick out of my friend here to the left , the Member for St.

George , talking about the McGregor Overpass which, if we had not gone into bloc funding , would have still remained in the Minister of Highways and Transportation's budget. The McGregor Overpass , the planning was initiated in 1960 and here we are sitting in 1979 and for an 8-year period we had four Cabinet Ministers in the former government from North Winnipeg, but all of a sudden a dear member from 90 miles north of Winnipeg has a great concern over the McGregor Overpass . I just wonder where he has been for the last 19 years. MR. CHAIAN: Order please. I rule the Member for St.

George out of order on discussing this, because it was supposed to come under the area of the Minister 's Salary or we covered it under the Reconciliation Statement. -(Interjection)- In all fairness to the Committee here, if I rule the Member for St. George out of order in that , I would have to have the Member for Crescentwood also adhere to the same rules. The Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: I would accept that ruling, Mr. Chairman, because you are following in the good footsteps of an excellent Chairman from last year and I think that you're doing your job well. MR. CHAIRMAN: Than you.

Has the Member for Crescentwood finished? The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I'm sure that I can understand the feelings that the Member for Gladstone and the Member for Minnedosa, and my colleague and myself as far as rural members are concerned that we consider the network of roads in the rural areas of a very, very high priority and I'm sure the people we represent do also. 569

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 We are also concerned with rail abandonment and we know that it 's unfortunate that there are so many railroads being abandoned and that the province is going to have to pick up the extra costs of upgrading these roads to carry the heavier loads that will come about because of this rail abandonment. I have been recently advised that the branch line from Dauphin to Ste. Rose is being asked for by the CNR from the Transport Board , so I certainly am in agreement with members on the government side that we have to improve our roads in the rural areas . There is no argument there .

I want to come back . I notice , Mr. Chairman, that you have allowed some latitude into talki ng about parochial matters and I don 't know if this is the appropriate time to discuss that . We were more on Planning . I notice that you did allow the Members for Gladstone and Minnedosa to discuss the parochial, so in that context then I perhaps would ask the Minister if those ungoing programs that have been ongoing for a number of years , if those are goin g to continue.

I would like to know if the Minister has received a delegation from the Hill Ridge area in regard to upgrading of a road to the community of Hill Ridge, and those are basically the only two questions I have as far as being parochial is concerned . It's my understanding that there was a group in from my area to see the Minister and . MR. MINAKER: You saw them in the gallery, Pete. That's the day you made your speech. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: I was just waiting for the Minister to answer . MR. CHAIRMAN: Continue, please . MR.

ADAM: I would like the Minister to confirm if there was in fact a meeting and if there 's any hope for the people in that area that - I believe it's an ongoing program - it's one of the roads that I recommended in the early years of my election and it has received some upgrading . MR. MINAKER: They were all done years ago, Pete. MR. ADAM: Last year it received an up - lift last year . MR. MINAKER: Last year? MR. ADAM: Yes. After seven years , after seven years . Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage . MR. LLOYD G. HYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman .

I'd like the opportunity just to pass a couple of remarks about what the Member for Gladstone and for Minnedosa have donated to the future upgrading of the Yellowhead route west of ... starting actually , in the west end of my constituency . As the Minister is quite aware - it's been mentioned to him several times I was down - that he certainly needs to consider the wide shoulders because, being an agricultural community that I live in, the farmers are going to require those necessary shoulders to get their machinery past the junction of the No. 1 or 4.

I'm hoping that the Minister will see in the near future the need for the construction of the clover leaf at the junction of No. 1 and 4 there . As you know , Mr. Minister , we have our opening up of our new Portage Mall next week and we're going to require much needed highways and the clover leaf to steer that traffic in, as we hope we're going to get in, from both the southwest and the northwest of Portage Ia Prairie to use the new facilities that's going to be opened up in Portage Ia Prairie . I just wanted to bring this to your attention, Mr.

Minister, I'm hoping that the future for Portage West is that you 're considering a clover leaf there . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin. Would you use the mike please? 570

... • Tuesday, March 6, 1979 MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I'm wondering if the Minister or the staff of the department have been meeting wit h the Union of Municipaliti es to try and designate which of these routes that are going to get the highest priority for market routes because it becomes very, very difficult now to sort out which one you should be spending your dollars on. I know the system has been badly neglected over the last 8, 10 years with the former government.

Some of these PR roads, it's going to take millions of dollars to put them back in the shape that they were in at one time , but I'm wondering if maybe it wouldn 't be advisable tor the Minister to sit down with the Union - he maybe has already and with their help I'm sure that - ' because we don't have enough dollars to meet all these challenges and targets that's before us at this time, but maybe with their help we could set up someth ing that would be agreeable and that they wouldn't expect the moon at the one time.

I'm wondering how Manitoba hooks up with the grid routes in our neighboring province, to Saskatchewan . Does that receive a priority or do you just run them up to the border and everything stops, or is it planned with Saskatchewan so that it becomes more important now than ever because of the grain lines that are abandoned in Saskatchewan? A lot of this grain and traffic will flow into Manitoba - it certainly will in my constituency from the west - and on some of those routes there hasn't been enough planning to tie the Manitoba route in with the Saskatchewan route.

Those are the only questions I have for the moment, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . I wanted to make a few comments and I wanted to thank the Member for Roblin in deference to his colleagues the Member for Gladstone and the Member for Minnedosa .

The Member tor Roblin realizes , and I appreciate, he realizes the implications of the trade-offs that will be necessa ry in terms of future road construction in light of the present unplanned , hodge-podqe , that the Minister of Highways is indicating to us in relationship to the Estimates that will be, will be, no doubt about it, I think he realizes it will be put on him by the Council of the City of Winnipeg in years to come .

I think he would be naive to sugge st tha t the City Counc il, in all sincerity , will be putting on severe pressure , bloc fund ing notw ithstanding, on the governmen t and the Minister of Highways and Transportation to increase its fund ing in terms of providing needed arterial routes within the City of Winn ipeg. So Mr. Chairman , the Member for Roblin certainly sees the implicationis that it has that the presen t path that the governmen t appears to be taking in this area that what it has on the future needs of rura l areas, and especially in light of the comments that have been made by the Membe r for Ste .

Rose and the Member for Gladstone and the Member for Minnedosa dealing with the rail line abandonment issues that are facing those areas, there 's no doubt that there will be much needed and required planning and very detailed decisions to be made by the government to examine where their priorities will lie, whether it will lie in placing some of its funds in battling directly the loss of rail lines to rural areas or whether they will accept the moves that are being made by the Grain Companies , the Railway Companies and the federal government in concert in allowing, wthout any battle , as appears to be the case in certain areas, in allowing rail lines to be abandoned and communities to die , or whether they will expend some funds in detailing the necessary costs that face those communities and these residences should rail line abandonment be completed in those areas.

The Member for Gladstone indicated that there are greater funds needed for secondary roads . It almost appears from his comments that he is accepting without a murmur on behalf of himself that rail line abandonment is a fait accompli, that some of those lines, irrespective of what he may do as the representative of his area, that it is done .

It appears that all that he can do now is pressure his colleague, the Minister of Highways, to bring in and provide extra funds tor secondary roads because of the much needed requirements that these roads will have to bear in increased loads and longer distances of hauling and the transfer of costs directly from the federal government to the province and local municipalities .

The Member for Gladstone indicated that he wants to congratulate the Minister for maintaining the budget of Highways in terms of its present nature while the Minister of Highways last session admitted that, while his Minister of Finance indicated that the spendinq Estimates of the Department of Highways were to be increased some 30 percent, he admitted that his Budget in actual tact barely took into account inflationary costs; that he was trying to bring about as much work in the Highways Department as he could in light of the current government restraints in total opposition to the statements made by his Minister of Finance, and this year, Mr.

Chairman, is really no different in terms of the increases in the Budget of the Minister of Highways. So the comments made by the members of the Conservat ive Backbench , they should realize what the implications are as it 571

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 relates to the Highways Budget if there is not adequate planning and design work and foresight as to future road construction in this province . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: Well , thank you , Mr. Chairman . I'm certainly glad that the Member for St. George singled me out so much. I was very happy to hear that. But on the other side of the ledger he is also - he and I came into the Legislature at the same time - but he's been a fast learner .

He doesn't seem to have any problem twisting the facts around. accompl i We're not a fait with the rail line abandonment , but on the other side of the ledger we certainly do have to cover ourselves to the degree that in many cases it is a fait accompli. There is nothing we can do about it. MR. ENNS: Right . They have been abandoned . MR. FERGUSON: They have been abandoned and let's make that abundantly clear right now .

In my constituency last fall there were many points where there were 50 trucks lined up, where they were delivering two loads a day and people were sitting on those trucks for 5 and 6 hours and coming in there at 5 o'clock in the morning . It maybe doesn 't happen in the Honourable Member for Ste . Rose's constituency . Maybe he feeds all his grain to his turkeys , I don 't know , or if he can grow enough . I could also point out another thing , Mr.

Chairman , that in the eight years or nine years that I've been in this House as representative of my constituency , I have received absolutely no paved road whatever, with the exception of No. 1 Highway , and also that our secondary roads have not been kept up.

Under the great and glorious plan of the NDP Government whereby that you patrolled the roads in such and such a given time - I don 't know where the hell the direction came from - but take some of the roads and the phone calls that I got and all of the complaints that I got on my secondary roads where they couldn't haul grain , they couldn't get their seed to the fields, and this is on PT roads, so I don 't want any more lip from the Honourable Member for St. George .

He can stick up for the McGregor overpass, and he can stick up for the rest of it; I'm sticki ng up for my constituents and I'm working for roads for my constituents because we haven 't had any. Thank you . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. James . MR. GEORGE MINAKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman . I want to say that I support some of the objectives of the Member for St. George , but I think that the MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the member please use the mike? MR. MINAKER: What the Honourable Member for St.

George doesn 't realize is that I think when he was part of the government , part of the Treasury Branch, that he didn't realize that the City of Winnipeg, which I was part of at one time prior to being a member of the Legislature , wanted their own operation , wanted their home rule as they called it, and our government has taken the decision, and I think the right decision , to say," Here. Here 's so many dollars. You have it.

You do what you want with it." I think that the success of this approach will be communications. 1 support your concern at this time about whether there 's a number of dollars available for transportation - and I think there is an adequate amount at this time .

The to support the program this year success of this approach will be communicat ions - that we have communications with the City of Winnipeg and they convey to the Government of Manitoba, whether it be our government or your government, which I don 't think will happen in many years to come, but the communications is a secret, that if there is communication between the two levels of government; that they require this and this and this requirements ; that they are given the dollars; they decide what they want to do with it.

The secret, I think , or the success will be a continuing review of what the requirements of the City of Winnipeg is with their separate decision-making powers that they have as a city . I don 't believe that the Honourable Member from St . George understands this, as yet , because when I was on council, dealing with his government , they always tied some little control mechanism with the money . They would give us $2 million for the control of City Park, but there was always that thing that said : Okay , the province controls what we do in City Park .

So I support the bloc funding principle, but 1 also support his concern at the present time , that , is there adequate funding? 1 have confidence in our Minister of Highways, that he has an interest in our City of Winnipeg . As my colleague from the area of Crescentwood has said, 60 percent of the popula tion of Manitoba 572

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 is concerned and I believe that the approach that has been taken by our government, is a correct one, because the City of Winnipeg has asked for this responsibility and we will be watching them very carefully to see if they will accept that respons ibility in the same way I would expect your government to look at this situation, and say: you bloc funding " - and " Okay, if you want bloc funding, we'll give we'll watch.

It would only be expected of any responsible government, and our government has taken the approach and taken a step, I might say now: "Okay, you want it, we will give it to you" . let's see what's happened . But I think the important part of the whole scenario is review every year and communication, so I appreciate the Honourable Member from St. George's concern that it might not work if we don 't review it every year . It might not work if we don't review it every year . It might not work if we don 't communicate. I think the secret of the whole thing is if we do communicate and we do review continually.

And if we want to have three levels of government, which I believe in, that we should have a mun icipal government, that we should have a provincial government, we should have a federal government , then this is an integral step in supporting that idea of three levels of government. It has been taken by our government and obviously is affected by this particular Estimate that we're looking at.

I support the proposal and I have confidence in our Minister that he will continually review the situation regarding his responsibility and communicate with the City of Winnipeg, to make sure that we are not being short-changed. I'll tell you one thing, Mr. Chairman, that I will support the Member from St. George very strongly if we ever get short-changed.

I will be the first one to step up in the Legislature and tell the Minister of Highways that we are being short-changed, so I am watching with as much criticism as you are, but with much more optimism and I have confidence that the approach that we have taken is the right approach. "'" MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I apprec iate the comments by the Member for St. James.

I think the point that my colleague was trying to make, is the very one that you very articulately have just made , because the impress ion that I believe my colleague and the impression that I receive from the Minister is that the province , the Government of Manitoba, the Highways Department is no longer involved in planning with the city; it' s their baby. I think that 's tbe impression that we receive; that that's what this whole debate is about and the comments that the Member for St. George made was in that vein.

He's concerned that there are other areas in the city that some of my colleagues have asked me to bring up on this very subject, and that is the prov ince does have highways in the c ity; arteries that are considered as highways . There are bottlenecks, you know, and I can name a few. Yes, , there 's bottlenecks and there are highways and it's the responsibility of the highways whether you're a Membe r for Gladstone or Ste. Rose.

We're part of the province, a community of people living together , and while we are all pulling for our own areas and roads and we know how important they are, we understand from the Minister now, that there is no more communication that you say should be there ; that, oh yes, let the city decide and plan their own bridge, plan their own overpass - McGregor Overpass - let them plan it. That is the impression that we got here. Now, look at the Logan and King Edward bottleneck. One of the most terrible bottlenecks. . . MR. CHAIRMAN: If I may, to the Member from Ste.

Rose' I think we're right back to where we ,...... were ... • MR. ADAM: We're in the planning . MR. CHAIRMAN: . . . which is the Planning and City, which I think we had agreed on that basically the bloc was covered under the Reconciliation Statement , as well as under the Minister's Salary in terms of the bloc funding area, and I would like to just suggest to the Member for Ste. Rose that maybe we can get down to the planning and design as it is designated under this area here, because I think the area of the city planning as such, should possibly come under the Minister's Salary . MR.

ADAM: There's no longer any planning with the city, insofar as their priorities are concerned. That's my understanding. MR. CHAIRMAN: Not under this item . I understand that this can be covered under the Minister's Salary in terms of the broad scope of the jurisdiction under bloc funding . 573

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 MR. ADAM: Without any expertise to back him up, without any staff people. But anyway, can we discuss those streets, those highways in the city that are still . . . ? Are there any highways in the city tuat are still the responsibility of the department? A MEMBER: None. MR. ADAM: There's none? So, the bottleneck at Notre Dame and Arlington and a lot of others ... there are 2 or 3 that I can name. Could I ask , then, Mr. Chairman , there's some comments in last year's debates about studies as far as - - and I believe the Minister made some comments.

There's comments on a report on ARC Agreement. Are we still involved in planning in that area? And also a report on the Red and Assiniboine River studies, is that part of planning? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister has just indicated that they will hear all the representations and they will answer on the planning end of it. Are there any further questions that you have, so that the Minister can make a note of them? If not, then, we'll ask the Member for Roblin and once we have all tue questions submitted , the Minister will report to them . The Honourable Member for Roblin . MR. McKENZIE: Well, Mr.

Chairman , the Honourable Member for ' St. James said a lot of things that I had in my mind . The other thing is, I do certainly appreciate the fact that the Committee is taking some time to deal with this subject. The whole stability of our economy in this province hinges around what we're discussing here right at this very moment. I think we all are well aware that agriculture is the No. 1 industry in this province and the spinoff that comes from agriculture ties in with the transportation of our goods and services , etc ., etc .

And of course , we are faced with the energy costs now , which is another factor, that none of us who sit around this table can estimate what is going to happen. I think the discussion was very worthwhile and I'm sure the Minister and the department are more alert to it than the average MLA, they meet with people on the national scene that we don 't see from time to time.

But I'm very unhappy about the performance of the former government - - the years they were in office and the way they let our road system go down the drain - - that really irks me - especially in my constituency, and I'm sure there's others that got the same treatment I got. So it's not going to be easy to pick up those 7-8 years of doing nothing that caused a lot of the problems that we're faced with today . I'm sure the Minister and his staff will , when we come next ...

And there may be a different problem; we may be running around with shortage of energy and we built the roads and then we have no fuel to use them . So that's a possibility But it's certainly been a worthwhile discussion and I look forward to the guidance of the Minister and the department to get us out of a very, very difficult time . May I ask the Honourable Minister in closing if these road -beds that are being abandoned, are they being transferred back to the municipalities or has an agreement been finalized regarding that matter? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: Yes, thank you, Mr.

Chairman . I have several specific questions with respect to planning and design work of some of the provincial trunk highways and roads and specifically witb respect to the upgrading and re-design of provincial road 235 from PTN No. 6 to the Narrows. I wish to ascertain whether the design problems and drainage problems have been overcome in this entire area that the road is in the process of being upgraded .

The contract was let last year , which was begun , but the road is for from being completed in the area that the contractor began to work - - whether that whole area of drainage and design has been - - whether the Engineering Department sees it has been overcome . And as well, in the area of Highway 59, proceeding north of the present area, whether any of the problems that were envisaged earlier in respect to properties and the like, whether these have been or in the process of being ironed out and this road is proceeding as originally planned . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. ENNS: Well , Mr.

Chairman, I had that feeling just in the last hour, that my Estimates were escaping me and 1 was losing any input into them . I'll attempt to answer some of the questions raised, starting with the last questioner first ; the Honourable Member for St. George . We are on an ongoing program of improvement on the road that is near and dear to his heart, 235, and that will be reflected in this year's program. It's a major undertaking, as the Member is aware of. It requires substantial , you know, input into providing the kind of road that will eventually stand up 574

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 in that rather difficult terrain, but I'm sure the honourable member will be, not necessarily satisfied, but will recognize an effort is being made in that direction . With respect to his other question on 59, the commitment made by the department in its previous year 's work is carrying on and we will carry on.

As 1 announced - - I don 't believe the member was present last night, when I announced some of the highlights of the construction program last night in the introduction of my Estimates, that there will be substantial work carr ied on in the four -lane activities of Highway 59 towards the Grand Beach area. Now Mr. Chairman, the discuss ion that has taken place in the last little while has given me an opportunity perhaps to point out some of the more , you know , not obvious facts about highway construction.

And I thank the Honourable Member from Gladstone, who 's not present here, as well as other members , who have brough t to the attention of the Committee and to myself - - and I'm speaking to two honourable member s of the Opposit ion who have some - - who I know know better and whom I hope will be able to influence some of their colleagues better.

But the preposterous, that is the only word that I can use, suggestion made by an otherwise esteemed member of this House, and an esteemed contributor to the former government in the position of a senior planner, indeed, I think the Manager of the Planning and Priorities Committee of that administration - - I'm referring to the Member for Transcona - - when he makes the preposterous suggestion that we should stop putting shoulders on our highways . You know gentlemen, we've listened to a debate about the possible problems of lead poisoning in the House.

What he is suggesting is the assured slaughter of hundreds of Manitobans on our highways and everybody knows that, and the Member for St. George knows that , the Member for Ste. Rose knows that. Weat your collegue stood up in the house and proposed to me was to kill more Manitobans, ten to one from lead poisoning . Now, you know , I know that highways is not that kind of a dramatic thing . It doesn 't quite fit in the same category of whether old age pensioners get two strips of bacon or three or whether the Honou rable Member for Ste.

Rose happens to live under a tarpaulin in the hospital under a clean bed sheet every day. But what your collegue has suggested is that we kill off two , three hundred , four hundred Manitobans by suggesting that we stop putting shoulders on Manitoba highways and thi s comes from a senior planner , a man that has degrees five miles longer than any of us around this tab le, a R hodes scholar , a man that is purported to be the next leader of your party . MR. CHAIRMAN: Point of Order, the Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , on a point of order, on a priv ilege as well. Mr.

Chairman, the Minister of Highways purports to indicate that the death rate on our provincial roads, three to four hundred additional people, is directly attributable to the lack of shoulder construction in the road. The Minister himself indicated in the House that the death rate on our highways has decreased and I would like to know where the Minister received the statistics that he is quoting to this committee that the deaths on our highways are direct ly attributable to the lack of construction of shoulders on our highways. MR.

ENNS: We can within percentage figures accurately predict the decrease of accidents when we make the necessary improvements on highways, when we separate head on head on collison factorS, when we have the funds to make the necessary improvements, when we can correct the right angle turns to the acceptable three degree turns, when we can separate traffic this way where we know it happens to be. Our highway planners, and we're dealing with planning, and it costs money, we can predict with frightening accuracy the decrease in the loss of lives and in the decrease of accidents given that opportunity.

And I just make this point at this particular time because we've spent a great deal of time in the House and others about so called and, I'm not an expert in those areas, but I happen to believe in the people and the planning people and the people that we're talking about in this division that when they ask and when they often have to go against local opinion and often have to go against the local member because it's not easy to ask farmers to give up right of way of land, it's not easy to ask farmers to give up a favourite row of trees that maybe their father has planted or when we want to cross a favourite corner of

section of land of a farmer to improve for safety reasons, for design reasons, and when we make those appeals, those are the reasons that we're doing it. And I know that the honourable two members present here know what I'm talking about. They are both rural members. They know that when you're travelling under conditions that we had today with blowing snow and you're in trouble and you have nowhere else to pull off but a ditch that that shoulder is very important , not just to your own safety if you have to change a wheel because of flat tire , but for the fact that you can move your vehicle out of the stream of traffic and prevent 575

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 that tail end collision that so often takes lives. So, I just want to make the point that when a relatively respected member that should know better makes that kind of a statemen t in the House that says that we should stop building shoulders , well I can take you to places that don 't build shoulders . You can travel to places like the Barbados, you know where all of a sudden there is two foot drop immediately off of eight feet of pavement or Prince Edward Island or other places . So, let 's put that little question to rest.

I'm appealing to my honourable friend in the opposite side that they will influence , use their influence - I know it's weak within that urban caucus but they wil - I'm appealing to the honourable members that they will appeal to their members to recognize that when you're caught in a snow storm on a highway between here and Portage Ia Prairie or between here and Woodlands, that that shoulder is very comforting , very necessary . Now that's just a safety factor .

I've not discussed the engineering facts that you don 't build up a road without the shoulders to stabilize the roadbeds; you can't put the kind of loads that we want to put the . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose with a Point of Privilege. MR. ADAM: Yes, the Minister has indicated that he knows that he ... I want to paraphrase him now . He says that he knows that the NDP caucus is weak and I think that constitutes a Point of Privilege . My Point of Privilege is that there are disagreements in every caucus.

We witnessed that here this evening with the Member for Crescentwood , I believe, and the Member for Gladstone, between the members here. There are disagreements and there are differences of opinion in among all caucuses , Mr. Chairman and I don 't think that the Minister should make those comments. MR. MINAKER: I'd like to ask the Honourable Member from Ste. Rose where the disagreement <> was between the members of our side. I don 't know where we disagreed . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. I personally don't feel that the point of privilege that was stated by the Member for Ste. Rose is a point of privilege.

It's a matter of opinion and we'll not honour It as such . The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman , I've gotten that off my chest. Let me carry on with trying to answer some of the particular concerns. Certainly the Member for Roblin raised the question of whether or not we are cooperating with the municipalities, the union of municipalities in terms of this whole question of the kind of priorities that will have to be set on our road effort. I can assure him tha t we are.

Several senior members of the department are working actively with the municipalities , particularly those that are affected by rail line abandonment and we're hopeful that we can meld the priorities of road construction with their priorities and recognize that problem. The Member for St. George talks about rail line abandonment as though we have given up the ghost. I want to make it very clear that the Department of Highways in these efforts does not enter into the dispute of whether or not a rail line should be abandoned or not.

I think that is quite properly within purview of the Minister of Agriculture , for instance as representing rural Manitoba, and the Minister of Economic Development.

We in Highways have to be prepared to respond to a situation that we all of a sudden face and as some other members have pointed out, there are a number of inst ances where the lines have been abandoned and we have enough on our plate to try to build up those roads where that in fact has taken place and the Member for Minnedosa indicated a little while ago he is in that particular situation on Route 250 in the Cardale-Newdale area' the line has been abandoned, the points had been given up, and it's not a question of arguing whether it 's a fait accompli or not , it's a question of responding responsibly to the transportation needs in those areas.

The Member for Portage asked for continued efforts in recog . nizing the needs for developments of roads in his particular area, particula rly in view of some of the industrial activity that taking place that is changing the pattern of traffic in that area.

The increased amount of potato traffic for instance that's resulted from the McCain industry that has been established in Portage Ia Prairie is presenting this department with its own unique problems and we again trying to, in consultation with the City of Portage Ia Prairie and with the Rural A.M. of Portage Ia Prairie along with the Member for Portage Ia Prairie, trying to work out the kind of priorities that all three of these factions legitimately bring to our attention . Well, Mr. Chairman, I've attempted to answer some of the questions . Let me simply indicate in closing that the Member for St.

James when he issued I think an appropriate alert signal that we have gone to bloc funding with respect to the City of Winnipeg . That does not mean for one minute that we have lessened in any way our degree of cooperation and discussion with the City in terms of planning together their transportation needs as they dovetail with the Province's needs 576

·- Tuesday, March 6, 1979 but we do and perhaps it's because of the association and the confidence that I have in the Member for St. James who after all was the Chairman of Public Works for the City of Winnipeg for a period of time, that we are prepared to acknowedge that the City of Winnipeg has extremely competent staff.

My Deputy Minister informs me that the relationship between the City of Winnipeg Public Works group and our department is good and cordial and cooperative but we recognize that the City of Winnipeg is an autonomous municipality and they elected 29 councillors to make the decisions affecting the welfare and the traffic and transportation problems of that city and we do not intend to impose our will against their will. MR. CHAIRMAN: Before I recognize the Member for St. George, I would just like to draw the attention of the Committee that since this afternoon when we started on

Section 3 under Planning and Design I've allowed a fair amount of latitude in terms of members on both sides to express their views and I'm wondering if at this stage of the game before we start again if I could caution the members to maybe confine themselves to the specifics as we had intended initially. I ask the indulgence of the members here. The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Thank you Mr. Chairman. In dealing with this

section the Minister has presented what I would consider wild statements with respect to the statistics that he proportedly gave us in this committee . I challenge the Minister to produce the statistics that he talks about in terms of absolute reduction of deaths on our highways with respect to the construction of shoulders. I will not argue or attempt to justify any statements that have been made by any of my collegues. I think they are very well able to look after the statements that they make themselves in respect and in the context that they have made them .

But, I do know that the Minister of Highways in speaking to the Legislature has now used this issue, or attempted to use the issue of statistics as a red herring to cloud the real issue that he presented to Legislature indicating that he had undertaken a study through the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation to indicate to the House the nature and the type of accidents. . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister on a Point of Order. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I know the bent that the Honourable Member for St. George is approaching. I believe it's out of order . MR.

CHAIRMAN: On the point of order or on the main topic? MR. URUSKI: Yes, on the point of order. Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Highways has been given the latitude to make statements with respect to planning and design and in terms of statistics of deaths on the highways and he has raised the subject. I respectfully suggest, Sir, that those statements should not be left unchallenged in this Committee and the Minister should be brought to task and be able to produce those statistics.

I want to know, myself, that if that is the case, that the lack of construction of shoulders on our highways have been directly attributable in the last year to these kinds of statistics that I want to know and then be able to support him and encourage him to do more planning and design work and construct better shoulders on our highways but I would like to know whether his statistics are accurate. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister, I would like to caution all members here that on the Point of Order if we can tie it into the planning and design area as well. We are getting side tracked.

The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: On the same Point of Order as I undertook yesterday to provide certain information for this Committee and indeed provided it at the outset of this afternoon's session, I will provide those fixed and firm statistics for the Honourable Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: In terms of the statistics that he has given, that's what I want. MR. ENNS: Accident rates. The experience of accident rates, deaths with respect to highway design and then the prediction of re8uction of deaths and accident rates with improved highway design.

I will provide at least a handful of those specific situations for the Honourable Member for St. George . MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (a) - the Member for St. George . sn

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 MR. MINAKER: Do you support no shoulder construction? -(lnterjection) MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, order please . The Member 8or St. George . MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. MINAKER: A former RCMP, and you support no shoulder construction . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order , order please. MR. MINAKER: YOu really support no shoulder construction; is that right? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , I know an outrageous statement when I hear one , and I've had it MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please .

If we're going to proceed with the Estimates as such could we have a certain amount of recognition of the Chair, I would recognize the Member for St. George .. MR. URUSKI: My apologies to the Chair . MR. CHAIRMAN: . .. regarding 3.(

a) Salaries, or are you speaking on the Point of Order. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , if I am allowed, Sir, to comment on the statements that the Minister has indicated in this Committee, his utter - and I paraphrase his words at this time - his utter disgust at the statements that were made by the Member for Transcona . I believe that's what he was saying . Well, Mr.

Chairman, he is now, in his remarks to this Committee, is now what I would consider using a red herring and trying to weasel out of the statist ics that he indicated were firm , and he talked about that he could prove that the lack of shoulder construction on highways would cause some 300 to 400 extra deaths on our highways . If I have mistakenly took his remarks - I think Hansard will bear me out - if I am wrong I stand to be corrected but I believe those are his words . Now he is coming to this Committee and indicating that he is going to bring some statistics dealing with accident rates . I would suspect , Mr.

Chairman, that there are statistics in the department dealing with the reports of accidents but they are not the statistics that the Minister of Highways is quoting. They are not the statistics that he is trying to throw around in this Committee and there is no doubt that he will bring back statistics dealing with accidents , but they will not reflect the remarks that he has made. The Minister of Highways . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, if I may. I think we are getting totally off the subject into a private argument here and I would ask the Member for St.

George to stick either to the subject or leave it as such . Is the Member for St. George finished? MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. James . MR. MINAKER: Well , Mr. Chairman , I have to comment at this time because I have some prett y close relatives that were former RCMP constables and present RCMP constables and I raise the question, it may be out of order , to the Honourable Member for St.

George that , you know , does he support no shoulders on our highways or doesn't he, because that is what the Member for Transcona recommended to the Government of Manitoba - exactly what he recommended - and with the comments that I hear from the Member for St. George he is supporting that proposal. And as my outward view of the relatives of my family that are RCMP and also as a driver in Manitoba . I would think if we took that approach to Planning and Design in our highways that we would increase our accidents , we would increase the deaths , because I would like the Honourable Member for St.

George - and he can answer it or deny it, as the Honourable Member for Wellington denied to answer a question that I raised the other night in the House - does he honestly believe that the death rate would be lower , the accident rate would be lower if we did not have shoulders on our highways? Because 1 cannot firmly believe, as an engineer or as a member of this Legislature , or as a citizen of Manitoba , that if we discontinue the shoulders on our highways that we will be better 578

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 off dollarwise or better for people of Manitoba to take this approach. And I would ask the Honourable Member for St. George - and he can either not answer it or he can answer it - does he support no shoulders on our highways , because I think that is a wrong approach; I think we would be doing our people of Manitoba an injustice if we took that approach, and I think the Honourable Member for Transcona is completely wrong in his proposal. MR. CHAIRMAN: Members, if I may address the members of the Committee as such MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, if you allow me, I would be only too pleased to .. .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . I am trying to establish the fact that by having allowed a certain amount of latitude, in all fairness to everybody to have their fair expression, that we totally deviate from the basic intent as such. Any further comments from the members of Committee? 3.(

a) Salaries - the Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: I ask you whether you will allow me to comment on the remarks dealing with Planning and Design of the Member for St. James. that he raised . MR. CHAIAN: Proceed. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . In dealing with the comments that the Member for St. James has raised dealing with Planning and Design of our highways, I hope that he will be able to do better in terms of supplying accurate statistics than his colleague, the Minister of Highways . .,.. -(Interjections)- MR.

CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, I think we can proceed at a little better rate if we allow one member to speak at a time. The Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: If the members of this committee don 't want to discuss the issue, then let them say so, but if they only want it answered in the way they want it answered, Mr. Chairman, I can tell them directly that if the Member for St. James is talk ing about the construction of highways with no sboulders I want to tell him, you know , if he really wants to dig into whether it's right or wrong, all you have to do is go around this province MR.

CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen , possibly .. . MR. URUSKI: . .. all you have to do is go around this province and look at, over the years, at the construction of highways at the time that they were constructed, whether they were constructed with shoulders or not and you will be back to the same point you are now debating: Whether or not it was good ten years ago to build highways without shoulders . Because they were done, the Minister of Highways was in government before I was, and they were building highways without shoulders then . -(Interjection)- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please .

I have allowed a certain amount of argument . . . MR. URUSKI: Red herrings are red herrings. MR. CHAIRMAN: If I could caution members of Committee again that I have allowed a certain amount of discussion I would advise members that they address their remarks to the Chair and to the Minister as such, rather than to a verbal argument . The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Member for Roblin in his remarks really indicated the precise nature that we are ultimately going to be faced with in the future, and to what extent we should be going in highway construction today when likely five or ten or twenty years down the road we may be faced with an acute shortage of energy. To what extent should we be going all out, in terms of four-laning and twining, and the like. MR. LLOYD G. HYDE (Portage Ia Prairie): Joe Clark's going to look after that. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the Member for St. James indicated whether anyone supports the construction of highways with shoulders or not.

I believe that in terms of safe construction there 579

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 is no doubt that highways require adequate shoulder construction . But to suggest, like the Minister of Highways has suggested , that that specific construction design will specifically deal with the reduction of deaths on our highways is totally ludicrous . We know that it will save lives. There is no doubt , in terms of safety and design , in terms of our highways, but certainly the Minister of Highways cannot get up here and say that this is the specif ic extent. If it is, I want to know about it, and I want him to present those figures to this Committee . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. MINAKER: I still have the floor , I think, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to thank the Honourable Member for St. George for answering me. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. James . The Honourable Minister . MR. ENNS: Well , Mr .

Chairman, perhaps to conclude the argument, there would be no better community to ask , as I'm sure there are other communities to ask, than , for instance, the community of Stonewall , who for several years , in fact indeed even came out with bumper stickers "Kill er Highway No. 7", I believe, or something like that , because of the lack of shoulders. And when I suggest to you that we, in the Traffic Safety Division of the Departmen t of Highways can, with reasonable accuracy , pinpoint the decrease in accidents and in fatal ities with the twining of that highway .

After all, that is part of the rationale , that is part of the justification for doing it in the first instance. Number One is the traffic density when a sing le or a too-lane highway has to handle upwards to 4,000 or 5,000 Vehicles per day , you know , for safety reasons and for traffic movement reasons, that's the point where under this section, Planning and Design , we start to plan for a divided highway , and it's those kind of statistics that I alluded to . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, on a Point of Privilege . The Member for St. George on a Point of Privilege . MR. URUSKI: Yes, Mr. Chairman .

My Point of Privilege is that I have not argued with the Minis ter one iota that those types of statistics cannot be shown by the Department of Highways Engineering

Section at all. What I am quarreling with were with the specific statistics that the Minister quoted . Let him deal with the specifics , not with the generalities, because with the generalities I agree with him . He has no argument from me with the generalities of being able to prove that the necessary design changes will result over the long haul, but the specifics that he quoted is what I'm quarreling with. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . I do not consider that a Point of Privilege ; it's a matter of debate or of opinion. The Honourable Minister . MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman , I think it is important because it is important certainly to the Department of Highways as to whether or not the department will, in the future , receive the kind of adequate funding required to build the necessary safe transportation corridors required in this province. What we're receiving from the Opposition - and that's what I alluded to - in a formal way a demand , not a request, a demand , that we stop building shoulders , that we proceed with highways without shoulders .

And I would have to suggest to this Committee that is going back into the Neanderthal days of when you rolled maybe an oxcart across a trail. But certainly I find it incongruous that anybody sitting around a table like this would argue against the safety factor and the necessity from a design point of view for shoulders on highways ; certainly not in the prairies , not in Manitoba. But , Mr. Chairman , I have to come to that reluctant conclusion.

I at first thought it was the musings and mutterings of an urban person that didn 't get out to rural Manitoba too often but when I find that position being supported by a former Minister of the former government , a Minister that was in charge of Autopac , then I find it very troubling . Mr. Chairman , I can 't add any more to these comments . The Member for Roblin wishes to, but MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George . The Member for Roblin . MR. McKENZIE: Well , Mr.

Chairman , just to assist you to resolve a difficult point , may I suggest that we wait until these statistics arrive and then the debate will be able to continue , if it's necessary . 580

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(

a) Salaries $997,300-pass; 3.(

b) Other Expenditures-$276,500-pass- the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Yes, I wonder if we could just get a breakdown on this second item here . .;. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, the activities involved in this division include the, if I can list some of them, the data collection and processing, planning, programming, functional design and geometries, engineering and services. The following items also had a significant impact on the Planning Design workload. I mentioned previous to it the MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Chairman, if I may interrupt , just to clarify my question to the Minister . We have that information that he is giving us now. He has made that information to us previously. I just want a breakdown of the amounts, what it consists of. MR. ENNS: The amounts consist of, in wages .... MR. ADAM: No, the wages as a salary increase, is it? MR.

ENNS: Professional fees, some $32,000; office equipment, some $2,000; printing and stationery, some $14,800; postage and telephones $3,800; utilities, $2,600; equipment operations, $19,000; computer operations, that is charges charged to this division for computer services, some $17,000; automobiles some $42,000; automobiles, and that is the private mileage that we pay, some $18,000; aerial photography, some $47,000; travelling expenses, some $70,000, and others, $1,000, for a total of $276,500.00 . MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (b) - The Membe r for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, specif ically in the area of aerial photography, I believe the Minister quoted a cost of some near $50,000.00. What areas would the department be involved in specifically in dealing with aerial photography? Is that some of northern road construction and new road areas that they would be using topographica l photography to look at poss ible routes, or is it dealing with more areas that are within the province of Manitoba , and specifically, is that cost in terms of the use of aircraft, is that used by the province of Manitoba aircraft or how is that use made? MR.

ENNS: I'm advised that normally, as it has been the occasion in the past, it's contracted out. It is used for general topographical work in route alignment, we have found it a particular aid in MR. URUSKI: In existing roads? MR. ENNS: On existing roads or where requests for realignment have been received. A substantial portion of it is in the relatively unmapped or uncharted regions of the north, but it's also used in the south . The department has asked, on several occasions for more of it to be used in the southern part of the province as well.

It does give us the overview in terms of general alignment somewhat easier. We have been contracting about 350 miles of highway to be thrown every year for the purpose of updating our photography on our PTHs. "It is heretofore recommended that we expend" - and I'm reading from program notes - "that this program, to provide aerial photography on the PR system as well." In other words, there is a need and a requirement by the department to make use of this type of information. MR.

URUSKI: Would the aerial photography encompass an area much larger than the immediate area of the roadbed in question and its right-of-way. Would the department be looking for alternate routes, maybe taking out a curve or the like in a road in terms of aerial photography, or what is involved in this? Is it an area much larger than the roadbed and right-of-way? MR.

ENNS: As I indicated earlier , in the Planning and Design division, we have a heavy backlog of requests and the department uses this means to attempt to catch up on some of that backlog, that we get requests for changes in reallocating existing roads in the entire system. Most of it to 581

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 date has been used on the PTH system , on the provincial trunk highway system . The department is press ing for greater use of this means of quickly having an overview of a route location photographically available to the department to have that extended to the PR system, and that's principally where these sums of money are being spent. It is a relativ ely modest amount in the overall situation .

If I can just go furthe r on, because we lack the kind of information that aerial photography provides on physical and cultural features , it is becoming you know , increasing more difficult to review and process the kind of requirements , very often for subdivision plans, etc ., even on the existing route , situations , and we can quickly get an aerial photograph of the area involved that our planners can then sit down and talk about future allocation of roads . MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman .

Is there, not information, but services available to the province within the province of Manitoba that perform this type of service , or are the services performed by their own engineers with their own equipment and the flying time is rented out? MR. ENNS: I'm advised , Mr. Chairman , that it is available within the province, but we don 't have within the department the capability nd and expertise of doing it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin . MR. McKENZIE: I think most of my questions are answered , Mr. Chairman .

Maybe , does this photography show any weaknesses in the physical structure of the road or possible breakups that ~ ... of course you only do it once in . . . A MEMBER: Not wide enough shoulders, Wally. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (b)Other Expenditures $276,500 - pass; Resolution 70, $1 ,273,800 for Highways and Transportation , Planning and Design - pass; Resolution No. 71 , Maintenance - Highways and Airports , $34,561,000; 4(

a) Maintenance Program $31,765,000 - pass - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Yes, could the Minister advise the committee what changes have taken place insofar as Maintenance is concerned. What new areas of changes have taken place? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , this of course is the other major item involved in the Department of Highways and Transportation. It accounts for a very substantial amount of the money spent by this department and I'm addressing to the rural members of Manitoba , who are well aware of the costs involved in providing the necessary maintenance for principally our provincial road systems .

There is, of course the ongoing maintenance on our provincial trunk highway systems which involves the resealing and coating of highways , it involves the snow plowing of highways this time of year, but there has Seen no change in the level of maintenance . The department is under increasing pressure, of course to provide and extend the same maintenance to the thousands of miles of roads that we now have jurisdiction over in the province.

Sometimes I think that when members in the opposition criticize the amounts of moneys allocated to the Department of Highways , they forget that every year, at their prodding , and at the encouragement of my own members of Caucus, the province adds new miles to the road systems . We develop and grade and gravel new PR, provincial road systems. That , of course adds to the annual maintenance bill and that's essentially what this involves .

There is one additional aspect of maintenance involved in this vote at this time, and that comes to do with the re-organization of the department , in that we have some 30 or 31 airports in remote and isolated communities to maintain as well. The department , over the years has supplied certain pieces of equipment that are stationed at these airports and some of the airports are manned - 1 think the department staff will give me some indication of how many are manned and how many aren 't.

Some are what we would call true emergency airstrips where there is no staff involved , but we do have a fairly large complement of staff involved in maintauning a number of these airports that comply with the conditions and regulations of the Department of Transport (Canada) for the maintenance of these airports . I'm advised that 19 of the 30-odd airports that we have responsibility for in northern Manitoba 582

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 are staffed and have people on-site to maintain the airports. MR. ADAM: Could the Minister advise if there have been any additional airports established in the last year and a half? ~ MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, there have been no additional airports constructed since this division has come to our department. I can advise the members of the committee, however, that we are presently undertaking construction of one new airport at Lac Brochet for northern Northern Affairs, yes, but that 's not onstream as yet. The funds are in this budget.

No, pardon me, I should advise the committee that the funds for the construction of that airport, as will be the case on several overlapping situations, the funds for some of the Northern Affairs projects are in the Estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs. However, the Depart ment of Highways and Transportation will be delivering the service. We will be doing the actual construction. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin . MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, how do they determine the maintenance on a PR road? Who makes that decision, the District Engineer, or how does he arrive at it?

The traffic counts that's on it, or weather conditions? I suppose it's a lot of factors . MR. ADAM: Good question, Wally, good question . What is the procedure, Harry? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to believe it's on the advice of the member, but in addition to that, it's backed up by experience on that particular road, and certainly the availa bility of funds in the general maintenance budget . For instance, there was an increase in the maintenance budget made shortly after October 24, 1977 because we realized the need for maintenance of rural roads was a priority item with rural Manitobans.

The department has a system or a

schedule which I appreciate that some of the members of the public don 't often feel is flexible enough to account for the weather conditions . However, I think that the departments and the District Engineers who have the responsibility of administrating their budget, the budget is given out to the individual districts, and on a prescribed course try to spread out the maintenance dollar as best they can. MR.

MCKENZIE: A few years back , it seemed that the patrol were designated on a certain day and I ran into some problems with some of the roads, that they felt that it should be more or less left to the discretion I guess it would be of the engineer or the man that's on the patrol, but there certainly were days when patrols were on these PR roads that they're absolutely doing no good at all. You take a hot, dry day in July, you're not going to improve the quality of the road very much running a patrol up and down it.

So, I hope that it is left to the discretion of the patrol operator and the engineering staff that they pick the most opportune time. May I say the maintenance has improved considerably . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to pursue a little further the questions proposed by my collegue from Roblin . I would just like to ask through you, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister . . . I understand there's supposed to be some cooperation between municipalities and the Department of Highways insofar as maintenance of roads are concerned.

Sometimes, you know, municipal graders go over provincial roads to get to another municipal road. What kind of cooperation is there between the Department of Highways and the municipalities, generally speaking, in the province? I wonder if the Minister could elaborate on that. I'm thinking, Mr. Chairman of the saving of dollars and where we can best utilize the dollars to work with the municipalities in maintaining our PR roads. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, just briefly to the Honourable Nember for Roblin, that 1 appreciate his remarks about the timing of when maintenance is being carried out. As a rural member 1 can appreciate his concerns . There's an optimum time to have the maintainer run on a road and not so optimum time but I think by the same token, if he realizes the size of the highway districts involved that they have to have a schedule, you know , and a beat as the Honourable Member for St. George says. We all appreciate that right after a nice little rain would be a nice time to shape up that 583

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 road, but when you look at the size of the highway districts, that's not always possible. So I don't discount the comments of the Member for Roblin, I think they're very apropos and I think the department is constantly trying to meet that requirement.

But if you realize - particularly us members should realize - we think we've got a pretty big job on our hands when we represent our constituencies, that the Province is divi2ed into 57 pieces, that we have 12 highway districts, 12 only throughout the length and breadth of this province, so that your district engineer has a lot of ground to cover in terms of detailing out where his maintainers will go and do the maintaining on the roads. Nonetheless, I appreciate the comments of the Member for Roblin and I'm particularly pleased that the staff is here to listen to him.

It's always, I think, as much an exercise for the Minister as it is for senior members of the staff to be present at these examinations of the departmental Estimates for them to be able to understand and appreciate some of the concerns that members of the Legislature have. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake requests about the degree of cooperation between municipalities . Mr.

Brako, the Deputy Minister, will support my statement that within a relat ively !. few short weeks of my assuming office that I had a specific request on this particular point, that we should re-examine again and contact all the municipalities in Manitoba as to how we can better utilize the equipment that we have. And when I say we, I speak as a taxpayer . The taxpayer doesn 't differentiate between anything that's yellow and crawls around the ground . That is his equipment, whether al it's municip or provincial government or indeed federal.

And it does aggravate people in rural Manitoba when they see a piece of municipal equipment or provincial equipment with their blaSe up high running over a road that could well do with a blade down and it's not being utilized . I'm assured , and I would invite the members to individually contact members of the staff if they feel they have a particular problem within their municipality . We have a number of reasonably good ..: agreements with a number of the municipalities whereby there's a trade-off . We will do some work for them or they'll do work for us and it's working out reasonably well.

I'm not satisfied necessarily that we're doing as much as we can in this area. Again , it's a question of sometime dovetailing schedules with the different jurisdictions involved . I think it's something that's very legitimate though that you raise in a very leqitimate way, that we should be constan tly pressing for; that we receive the maximum value for tax dollars spent on the equipment , on the staff .

Certainly , I would just as soon pay a municipality maintenance dollars for work they did on our roads, and I think on the other side in some instances we help out a municipality by enabling them to maybe keep an extra machine on their payroll by finding mile s of roads for them to maintain in areas where it's more convenient for us to do so. MR. CHAIRMAN: Member for Rock Lake . MR. EINARSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the Minister for the answer which he has given to me on my question .

I think it 's a very important one , especially when we talk about restraint and we're trying to make the dollars go as far as possible . One other question that I would like to pose , Mr. Chairman , through you to the Minister, and that is, particularly in the winter months when we have snow removal , and particularly this year and last year , there were times when roads would be open , then they 'd be plugged again.

I'm wondering how much thought has been given to equipping the trucks , that is, the foremen of various districts and snowplow equipment should be equipped with a radio so that one knows where the other is, which is a saving on miles and travel , one knows what the other is doing . I've been told on a number of occasions that this is something that 's been lacking , and if we want to make more efficient our highway system, particularly in the moving of snow , we could instal some of this radio equipment so that there 's communication and would be many miles saved, fuel saved , and so on .

I'm just wondering if the Minister would comment on that . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , in response to the Member for Rock Lake we are hopefully expanding that system within the department . There are a number of districts that are so supplied . We have not by any chance covered the province in that way.

There 's always the constra ints of budge t that prevent us from doing so but we acknowledge that the expenditure of some dollars on radio equipment would often offset and make greater use of costly equipment and time and labour by being able to communicate , you know, have the district engineer , be able to commun icate in a very fast manner with his staff . We are half-way in that program . We do have a number of distric ts, a number of units supplied with radio equipment but it is not universal throughout the department as yet. MR.

EINARSON: I'll just thank the Minister again for that , and hopefully that this is the way in 584

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 which they're going. I'm hoping they're not too long that the full province will be operating in a similar fashion. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Just to follow up a bit on the comments that the Member for Rock Lake made, could the Minister elaborate a little bit and indicate the degree that the department has become involved and been able to obtain radio equipment , and what type of equipment they have placed the radio communication equipment in?

Is it primarily in base stations and the patrols or is it also in some of their supervisory staff vehicles and the like? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised at present it's kind of a mixed bag. We have a bit of everything. We have car telephone systems, we have some two-way radio systems.

I might say the department I'm sure perhaps has looked at this too with the infusion of the transportation services from Northern Affairs into the Department of Highways - which includes fairly substantial and sophisticated radio services and we can deal with that on Resolution 9 as we come to it - but in the North the radio communication system has always been more sophisticated and more complete and that's one of the kind of side benefits that perhaps will accrue to the entire Department of Highways with that

section coming into the Department of Highways, that we can move that kind of services not just, you know, in Northern Manitoba , but make that available to our districts throughout southern Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have some specific questions . In the item of maintenance the department shows a recovery in their expenditure of $11.5 million. They show a recovery of $11,242,000 .00. Can the Minister indicate where that recovery is made, whether it's made from other branches of the department? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that that amount totally is internal charge-back, that we provide services to other departments principally in the area of forestry, parks, and within our own department. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . The other question I have specifically is, what is roughly the percentage increase of maintenance of program budget this year over last? MR. ENNS: The actual figures are from $32 million to $33 million, so we're looking at about a three percent increase . MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . That brings me to my comment in this area.

The Minister of Highways when he started his remarks indicated that the opposition always criticizes the amount of money in Highway maintenance. Mr. Chairman, I don't believe the Minister of Highways would have found himself in the criticisms that he has received in the last two years had his Minister of Finance not , in announcing the Highways construction and maintenance budget, spoken of an increase of some 30-odd percent when in fact the Minister came to this committee and indicated that the Highway's budget increase was between 7 and 8 percent for last year.

That's where the criticism really came in of the Minister and the Highway's budget, because to the public it left the impression that while there was severe government restraint, that the Department of Highways was going to do great wonders in terms of highway construction, when the fact of the matter was - and the Minister himself admitted to this committee - I do not criticize him for it, but that is a difficulty that his Minister of Finance got him into, that the increase was primarily within the area of inflation increase and nothing more, and the increase specifically now in the area of maintenance this year I'm sure the Minister will admit will not even cover the inflationary cost increase.

And with the greatest respect to the to-dos we have heard from his members from the rural areas of the Conservative Caucus . The Maintenance Program, I believe , will not change substantially . If anything, it may be somewhat less but I will give them the benefit of the doubt that they may be able to maintain the amount of service that was maintained in the past years and certainly nothing any better and the criticisms that have been levelled in the past years and now the plaudits that have been given in this year certainly have no foundation whatsoever. 585

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I couldn 't agree with the Honourable Member for St. George more . The Minister of Finance is totally to blame . MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 4.(b)

(1) Salaries and Wages $4,003 ,800.00 .. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman , on a Point of Order, I think you 're jump ing MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We're on (

b) now, 4.(b)

(1) Salaries and Wages . The Honourable Member for Ste . Rose. MR. ADAM: Yes, I would like to ask the Minister why the Mechanical Division i s shown in last year's Estimates as $9,513,000 and it's shown in a different manner this year ; it 's shown as $275 ,000 . In '77, $8,367 ,900 and it's shown in the left-hand column here as $471,400 .00. Why was that change made and could he explain it to us? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that the Equipment Division of Transportation Services has now been added in. On the left-hand side. And that's the reason why they don 't correspond with the ... MR.

ADAM: Last year 's Estimates . MR. ENNS: . . . last year 's Estimates . MR. ADAM: What happened now? MR. ENNS: Well, it's the re-organization of the department . The Equipment Division of Transportation Services from NOrthern Affairs have been added in, and that is part of it, part of the original Reconciliation Statement. In the Reconciliation Statement on Page 1 of my Estimates of the $7,984 ,000, the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose will note . That's where the figures don 't jive with last year 's printed Estimates . MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (b)(1)-pass ; (b)

(2) Other Expenditures $7,397,200-pass ; (b)

(3) Equipment and Tools $40,000-pass ; (b)

(4) Highway Buildings and Sto rage Yards $76,000 - pass; (b)-pass ; (

c) Warehouse Stores

(1) Salaries and Wages $264 ,600-pass ;

(2) Other Expenditures $64,000- pass. MR. ENNS: No change . MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Purchases $3,470,000 - the Honourable Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: Yes, Mr. Chairman . Is this the revolving fund in terms of equipment purchases that the department has? MR. ENNS: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: That's on graders and mobile equipment. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (c)-pass? I'm sorry - the Honourable Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , this recoverable amount of 3.3 is also an internal recovery from othe r sections of the department? MR. ENNS: That's right, it's that revolving fund that the department has that we charge in and charge out . MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (

d) Airports and Roads , (d)(1) - the Honourable Member for Ste . Rose. MR. ADAM: I would like to ask . . . We asked questions on the

preamble on the number of airports - it was 19 - and that 19 were staffed . I don 't know if we got a number of the tota l. How many 586

.. Tuesday, March 6, 1979 airports do we have? 19 were staffed, I understood . My question is: There doesn't appear to have been any activity, additional activity; everythung is pretty well at a standstill with one project to come in the works, and there is an increase of almost half a million dollars in this item, if I'm reading it correctly . I'm just wondering if the Minister cou ld give us an explanation . Well, $411,000 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Yes, it's salaries . (d)(1) is $1 ,250,400.00 . That's the item we're looking at. MR.

ADAM: Could we get an explanation on this extensive increase for this appropriation when we understand that nothing is happening, it wasn't there in place before? Is there more staff added? MR. ENNS: Well, I am advised by staff, Mr. Chairman, that a fairly significant number of these airports that were under construction and construction completed now are being staffed, and that accounts for the increase in the salaries item in this appropriation .

For the benefit of the members of the Committee, I should also indicate that of the some - I shouldn't speak from memory but 60-70 personnel that are being involved - 68, I believe, that are involved here, principally they involve members of our native community that are staffing these airports in northern Manitoba. But the allocation for the salaries here is that in a number of instances this is the first instance that these airports are being staffed.

That is, an emergency airstrip was built, a small building - if you can call it an airport - was provided and they are now being staffed by two or three persons in tbose areas, and that accounts for the salary increase in this appropriation . MR. ADAM: Yes, could the Minister indicate what was the increase in staff from last year and is this 68 staff number in addition to what we are looking at on the staffing breakdown by division? Is it in Mechanical Division or where does it show up? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman , I am advised that there has been an increase .

You know , we've had to allocate an increase of some $112,000 for this increased staff. We do not have the specific breakdown in how that relates to numbers of staff . They are all associated in this area of maintenance of Airports , but we have some recove ry for equipment uti lization of some $238,000, and we have also added into this cost under Other Expend itures the necessary insurance of some $20,000.00. You see, in many instances this is the first time around in establishing these airpor ts. We established them under minimal cond itions of the Department of Transport Canada .

We have been advised after we built the airports that prior to their full uti lization that the conditions call for a minimum requirement of insurance before carr iers or private carriers will land in them. That accounted for some $20,000 in Other Expenditures . In other cases, the requirement for staffing then and staffing certain safety equipment and having available certain safety equipment.

In the Department of Transport there are various levels of airport classifications, starting all the way from just a straight unclassified emergency strip to the partially-manned, manned with certain equipment, manned with, you know, all the way to, I suppose, to the International Airport here in Winnipeg. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman , is the number of 68 staff, that represents an increase of how many over last year, and is this figure shown in the sheet that the Minister so kindly distributed to us today on such short notice and with such expedience? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, we have, as the member will appreciate, difficulty in answering that question as accurately as we would like. MR. ADAM: Take a try at it. MR. ENNS: Let me tell you, there is an ongoing problem . I think we can tell this: That my Deputy Minister and some other senior members of the department visited one of these airports. They hoped to call on the staff there . The station was abandoned . There were signs of a fight and there was no staff there. It's a fairly loose situation .

We have budgeted for 68 members of the staff and I can't assure the honourable member that all 68 of them are working at it at this time. I'll undertake that question as notice and perhaps have that information for him when next we meet. MR. ADAM: Could the Minister also take as notice and find out whether this 68 staff members - I think it's SMYs they're referring to - do they appear in the figures on this sheet? 587

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 MR. ENNS: Yes, they do. MR. ADAM: They are here? They are in Maintenance or Mechanical Division? MR. ENNS: They would be under that grouping that we show separately in the Transportation Services and they are included in that 242 figure . MR. ADAM: So that does not disturb then MR. ENNS: It does not disturb your MR. ADAM: The bottom line . MR. ENNS: No. MR. ADAM: The bottom line. Okay, then perhaps the Minister could give us a better breakdown on the $411 ,000 increase : the constructiOn, the insurance, the $112 ,000 increase in salaries or the extra staffing .

Dees the Minister have a breakdown there or can he provide it tomorrow , or . . . ? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I am advised that the difference between the $370 ,000 and the $400 ,000 reflects a straight price and salary increment increase in that division . MR. ADAM: $370 ,000 .00. MR. ENNS: The difference between $370,000 and the $411 ,000 represents no change in program or in staffing component but the natural increase in salaries and in costs associated with the posit ions held . MR. ADAM: So there must be quite a number of staffing increase in this area, and the Minister will bring that to us tomorrow . MR.

ENNS: Yes. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Thank you , Mr. Chairman . I don 't know if the Minister h as supplied the information to the Member for Ste . Rose, he indicated there was a number of new airports that have come onstream . Could he give us the specific details as to the new airpo rts that have now been manned since the last budget figures that we have here - a specif ic ar ea? The specif ic area of the airport that has been manned now, that has come onstream and the locat ions of same. Which airport ... ? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , I would have to take that question as notice and will provide it for you . We can deal with it tomorrow. MR. URUSKI: That 's fine . MR. ENNS: Your question , as I unde rstand it, you want the location of the manned airports MR. URUSKI: That have come onstream .. MR. ENNS: . . . that have come onstream . MR. URUSKI: .. . that this increase in budget attributes to, , and the staffing at each airport . You're looking at likely an increase of approximately $200 ,000 in Salaries and Wages and an incre ase of approximately $200 ,000 in Other Expenditures . That 's the accountability that I'm asking for , Mr.

Chairman . MR. ENNS: We'll have that information for the honourable membe r t omorrow . 588

.. .. Tuesday, March 6, 1979 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan River. MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman , I was wondering, has the department had additional responsibilities for northern roads and forestry roads this past year, and does that show under this (

d) part here? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I would have to advise the Member for Swan River that would appropriately be discussed under (6) and under

(9) I suppose , Transportation Services. I would point out to him that we have accepted the additional responsibility for northern roads and that is a winter roads program. We have not taken on all the forestry roads or trails, more appropriately called . MR. GOURLAY: But that shows up later on, it's not . . . MR. ENNS: Yes. MR. GOURLAY: Okay. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Yes, Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indicate whether in this Item 71 or No. 4 in the Total Maintenance Budget, whether it is included in that area, the maintenance on PR 391? MR. ENNS: Yes. MR.

URUSKI: Could the Minister give us a detai led accounting of what funds were expended on 391 in the last fiscal year in relat ionship to the amount of funds that were proposed and what is proposed in this budget dealing with PR 391. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, 391 ranks high in the priorities of the depa rtment. We have expended a subst antial amount of money on that particular stretch of road in the last year . I'm advised by staff, Mr. Chairman , that upwa rds in the neighbourhood of some $3 million were spent on that majo r road in the last year.

The member will be aware that the governm ent is committed to an ongoing expend iture at roughly that level over the next three or four years, to bring that very important road - and I might add that difficult road from an engineer's construction point of view - to full trunk highway acceptability . In fact, it 's my hope that within the next two or three years when we have constructed 391 to Thompson to the level acceptable with other provincial trunk highways that we indeed will change the numbering of that road from 391 to No. 6, and the residents of Thompson have been so advised . MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Is it agreeable to the members to pass 4.(d)(2) in view of the fact that the Minister is going to be providing additional information? The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , I just wanted to ascertain for certain that the Maintenance Budget does include provisions for 391, or will that really be included in the highway construction program? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, on 391 we're faced with both, heavy expenditures in both areas.

I would not want to leave the impression that we are not going to include in the regular highway construction program a major expenditure of dollars, but the nature of tbe road, as the member is well aware, is such that it requires a constant heavy maintenance program. Indeed, that's possibly the major reason why we're undertaking the reconstruction of that highway because the maintenace costs, the annual and the yearly maintenance costs are such that we're well advised to spend the extra dollars in shoulder strengthening and the general improvement of that road. MR.

ADAM: I'd like to ask the Minister if there is anything in the items before us that will appear In the program that will be tabled? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, not in the specific items that we are now dealing with. These are maintenance items , these are items that are separate and apart from the item that we can discuss under Resolution No. 6, Construction of Provincial Trunk Highways and Provincial Roads and Related 589

Projects . MR. ADAM: Including 391? MR. ENNS: Including 391. Tuesday, March 6, 1979 MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman , I wonder if the Minister would be ameaable, if we could hold this item over until tomorrow . We can come back to it when we get the information . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I appeal to you. The generosity of the Minister has been demonstrated time and time again in terms of his willingness to discuss any it

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-3-14b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 3rd hansardpdf 14b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3677c838d3acf3299c4a03e01f7e41ff7ccf0d52

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