ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 33 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 177 - 2:00 p.m., TUESD AY, 7 FEBRUARY, 1984. Printed by the Office of the Oueens Printer. Province of M11nilob.e

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYRA,Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thomoson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ell ice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MA NITOBA Tuesday, 7 February , 1984. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Wald ing: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . . . MINISTE RIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to submit the public accounts for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1983, consisting of Volume I, Financial Statements, and Volume II, Supplementary Information.

The documents had been previously distributed to the members. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table the Annual Report for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation for the fiscal year ending October 31, 1983. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of members to the gallery where we have 110 students of Grade 9 standing from the Sargent Park Junior High School. They are under the direction of Mr. Bob Forester.

This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Ellice. On behalf of all of the members I welcome you here this afternoon. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Before Oral Questions I would like to - if I may have leave of the honourable memembers - I don't believe the message came to you - but there are 30 students of Grade 11 standing from Arborg Collegiate under the direction of Mr. Striutynski, and I'm sure that all honourable members would welcome them as well. MR. SPEAKER: I've just been handed the message that those students are present.

The same welcome is extended to them this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Bilingualism in Manitoba MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier. In view of the continuing and indeed, mounting opposition that is occurring throughout the province with respect to the government's French language proposal, will the government finally comes to its senses and withdraw this ill-considered divisive proposal to put an end to the acrimony and convulsion that is tearing apart the province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Let me inform the Leader of the Opposition there is deep concern, but that deep concern goes to the fact that there is an impasse; there has been constant obstruction in this Legislature by members of the opposition; the unwillingness on the part of the opposition to permit the democratic process to work; the fact that the opposition is prepared to permit the democratic process to be violated. Mr. Speaker, there is deep and continuing concern about the role of the opposition, about the essence of democracy in this Chamber, about the permitting of this Chamber to come to a decision.

There is concern on the part of Manitobans and it's growing. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that it is this government that is putting the gun to the head of the opposition, that is forcing and imposing closure on the first constitutional amendment that we are dealing with in this House, the amendment to the Constitution of Canada, Mr.

Speaker, one that under all circumstances should be put in by consensus, one that requires the approval, or should have the broad general acceptance of the people of Manitoba, in view of the fact that this government is imposing closure, will he now admit that it is his government and their proposal that is dividing Manitobans? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that it was the Attorney-General who forwarded documents to the Member for St. Norbert and to the former, maybe the present, Leader of the Opposition in December of 1982 . It was the opposition that remained silent, Mr.

Speaker, then pounced on those proposals in May of 1983; it was the opposition that obstructed attempts on the part of the government to have public hearings on this matter from late June to the middle of August. Mr. Speaker, it was the opposition who refused an opportunity to work out a bipartisan approach in respect to this matter before Christmas of 1983.

It was the Leader of the Opposition who said, "I don't have time, my members don't have time," and explained over TV, "to deal with this matter before Christmas of 1983." It has been the opposition who has persisted in bell ringing hour after ho ur, wasting the time of this Legislature, wasting the money of taxpayers in the Province of Manitoba. It is the opposition that I indict for their obstruction and their deliberate, on their own admission, Mr. Speaker, on their own repeated admission of abusing and attempting to prevent the orderly process of decision-making in this Chamber. 5875

Tuesday, 1 February, 1984 MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that it was this opposition that dragged the government kicking and screaming into the public hearings that they were trying to avoid all last spring; in view of the fact that as a result of those public hearings, the proposal has become very very much changed and watered down in the words of this government; in view of the fact that the Member for Riel yesterday seemed to indicate to her constituents when a petition from over 1,200 constituents was placed before her that the government may yet decide to drop this proposal; will the First Minister now tell us what they have in mind and when they plan to drop this proposal so that we can end this acrimony and divisiveness?

HON. H. PAWLEY: My reponse, Mr. Speaker, is by way of comments that the House Leader made . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: ... on Saturday, February 4, 1984 on Provincial Affairs broadcast when the House Leader said, "I want to assure all my listeners tonight that the decision by the Conservative opposition to stall, to bring to a standstill, to prevent our government from going down the wrong way was not taken lightly. " Mr. Speaker, by their own public admission the House Leader has indicated that it is their intent, it is their design, calculated and planned, to bring this House to a standstill.

Mr. Speaker, we will not be held up to ransom by an opposition whose own admissions indicate that they're not interested in the democratic process, but by their own statements indicate that their own interest is to bring this House to a standstill and to prevent this House from making a decision. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. Let me remind all visitors to the gallery that no expressions of opinion are permitted by members of the public . - (Interjection) - Kindly remove that man from the gallery. - (Interjection) - Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Lakside. MR. H.

ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased that the Honourable First Minister took note of my short comments the other Saturday evening. I ask him then the further question, the question that I posed to Manitobans during that short broadcast: If constitutional amendments are to be made, it has to be by consensus; lacking that consensus, constitutional amendments should not be made. Does the First Minister not concur with that general statement that the Prime Minister of Canada certainly exercised in bringing about constitutional reform to Canada? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speak er, it has been the government indeed, as a result of the hearings that were undertaken throughout the fall, that made changes. By the admission of the former Leader of the Conservative Party, indeed the government made 5876 changes amounting to a 170 degree change in his traumatic flurry the other day. Mr. Speaker, it has been this side of the Chamber that has been prepared to compromise. It is this side of the Chamber that has attempted to arrive at a consensus. By their own admissions we have made changes that represent a 170 degree change, Mr. Speaker.

It has been this side that has been interested in consensus. It's only been that side, Mr. Speaker, that's been persistently and consistently and by calculation and by deliberate planning throughout, only been inter ested in obstruction. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the First Minister.

Will the First Minister confirm for me that - never mind consulting the official opposition with respect to hopefully obtaining a consensus or bipartisan support on this issue - the proposal initially put before this Chamber was not even consulted with members of his own caucus, that the former Attorney-General brought in a package deal signed, sealed and delivered and members of the NOP Caucus did not have an opportunity to express themselves on that issue? That package had to be bought, quoting the former Attorney­ General "without changing a jot or tittle" in that package.

Was not the.! the way this whole question was brought on to Manitoba? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the comments by the House Leader are not true, but what is true is that the Attorney-General forwarded to the Member for St. Norbert, who was the critic for the Attorney-General, his proposals in December 1982, and what is true is that the Conservative opposition waited like a tiger in the jungle ready to pounce for five months, rather than to respond to those proposals that were forwarded to them in December of 1982. They remained silent and then pretended surprise in May or June of 1983. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, will the First Minister indicate in what way, by correspondence or otherwise, what par1icular member of Her Majesty's Official Opposition was asked to sit down in initial discussions that involved the SFM, M. Bilodeau, and representatives of the Federal Government that brought together that package that was dropped into this House in June by the former Attorney-General? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the documentation was sent to the Member for St.

Norbert in December 1982, but what is more important is that the House Leader and myself sat down with the Leader of the Opposition and the Deputy Leader of the Conservative Party on December 15th, I believe it was - 12th? - to outline to the honourable members our proposals - (Interjection) - and proposed that there be some bipartisan discussions in order to arrive at a consensus llll R. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: . . . Mr. Speaker, now we have the truth. They are only interested in opportunism and

Tuesday, 7 February, 1984 expediency and they're not interested in a bipartisan approach. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. FI. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the First Minister concerning his search for support and his remarks this morning at a news conference that he had the support of a silent majority of Manitobans.

Can he explain how he would apply this theory to the results that were elicited by a radio station in his own constituency, whereby the people of Selkirk rated his performance on this issue as 1, on a scale from 1 to 10? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. May I remind the Honourable Member for Elmwood that the purpose of question period is to seek information, not opinions. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would simply ask the Minister if he can produce any tangible evidence, in the face of all the plebiscites and the ballots and the petitions and the rallies and the meetings and the phone calls and the letters, that indicates that he does not have support among the majority of people, I would ask him if he has any new, tangible evidence that a majority of Manitobans support his government on this question? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the most tangible evidence is the Honourable Member for Elmwood's refusal, Mr.

Russell and for others to give us the coupons, the petitions, to slip into our offices, to remove the coupons and the petitions, etc.- that's the most tangible evidence. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, the tangible evidence that Manitobans - maybe the Honourable Member for Elmwood doesn't realize this - but Manitobans want the democratic process to take its course. Manitobans, Mr. Speaker, want a decision to be made in this Chamber so that other matters can be dealt with. MR. R. DOERlll: Mr.

Speaker, I agree with the First Minister that is what Manitobans want, but would the First Minister not recognize that what Manitobans want is that the proposals be withdrawn, not proceeded with? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, obviously that's what the Member for Elmwood and some others would like, people that had been frightened by some of the misrepresentations that have been made by the Member for Elmwood, but the vast majority of Manitobans are reasonable people, understanding people and have a much better comprehension of the matter that is before us, than unfortunately, some members across the way.

I have confidence in the understanding of Manitobans to want to ensure that the fair and decent, legally correct and historically correct matter is undertaken. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would also like to ask the First Minister, given that he did not appear at a meeting in his constituency last night and rescheduled one, or scheduled his own meeting for Wednesday evening in Selkirk to meet with the constituents, . MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. R.

DOERN: . .. can the First Minister indicate whether this means that, because of his desire to meet with his constituents and discuss the matter with them, he will not do this after closure is invoked, but that the government will allow a couple of days of debate and not consider the application of closure until the First Minister has a chance to meet with his people to discuss the issue? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , the Honourable Member for Elmwood is not going to dictate to the people of Selkirk as to how matters are to be handled. Mr. Speaker, I did not reschedule a meeting.

Grassroots held a meeting last night in my constituency, and didn't have the courtesy of advising me that I was to be the guest speaker before they made a public announcement that I'd be there with Mr. Schulz, Mr. Green and Mr. Doern. A MEMBER: You took your phone off the hook. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I have one question for the Premier.

In view of the fact that his Member for Riel, his Party Whip, is now questioning what they're doing and suggesting that this issue should be dropped, will he listen to her and the rest of the people of Manitoba and drop the whole issue as has been brought forward? That's the question, Mr. Speaker. Will he listen to his backbench and drop this issue? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, honourable members across the way surely are becoming very very desperate when they sink to such misrepresentations and distortions of what honourable members in this Chamber have said.

I feel sorry for the Honourable Member for Arthur that he should sink to such a deplorable level. Flyer Indus tries limited MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Minister responsible for Flyer Industries and would ask him if he could inform the House whether the government or the Board of Directors of Flyer have received a proposal from a group of individuals wishing to purchase the bus company. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

There has been a proposal made to the Board of Directors 5877

Tuesday, 7 February, 1984 of Flyer Industries, and I believe there have been ongoing discussions with the people involved with respect to a potential offer. MR. R. BANMAN: A further question to the same Minister. I wonder if the Minister could inform the House as to who will be doing the negotiations? Is the Minister involved in these negotiations or will this be left up to the Board of Directors or have they retained either an accounting firm or a law firm to handle the negotiations for the government? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: At the present time the discussions are taking place through the Board of Directors of Flyer Industries and their retained consultants. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I can see why the Member for Transcona is nervous about this issue. I wonder, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister, in light of the difficulties which Flyer appears to be facing with a number of their model lines as well as some of the supplies and parts suppliers with regard to the manufacturing of the buses, could the Minister inform the House as to what the projected losses will be at Flyer this year? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated a few days ago in response to the same question, the problems that are plaguing the Flyer buses are some longstanding problems with respect to the manufacturing process of the buses and the new chief executive officer is attempting to deal with them. I don't have any information at the present time with respect to projected losses for Flyer. That will be reported in the usual fashion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the same Minister regarding Flyer Industries.

In the House this week I believe, the Minister said that the causes for the layoffs at Flyer were because companies that supply Flyer were not able to do so because of strike action in the United States. It has been reported by those suppliers that it is not their fault and that Flyer Industries is blaming them wrongly and that there is no need for the slowdown. I wonder if the Minister could comment on the fact that the suppliers say that it is not their fault for the layoffs. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

Perhaps the honourable member would rephrase his question to seek information rather than an opinion from the Minister. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Speaker, the Minister stated in the House that the layoffs were caused by suppliers not supplying Flyer Industries with product to continue production. Can the Minister advise the House why there are layoffs when the suppliers have indicated that they are able to supply Flyer Industries with the products they require for production? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Speaker, indicated at that time the information that I received with respect to the layoffs at Flyer were because of three separate situations, two relating to suppliers of parts for Flyer Industries, one of which was in a strike situation in the United States. The third reason was a general change with respect to the production of buses due to the fact that some parts of the assembly had to be done in the United States because of the protectionist policies of the U.S. Government.

As I understand it, the recent developments with respect to the suppliers were as a result of Flyer personnel attending at the supplier locations to correct the problems . I will, however, discuss this matter again with the board of Flyer to find out if there has been any change in the information that I received last week. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speak er, it has been documented that there are problems with the buses in Vancouver, the buses supplied to British Columbia and the problems that are being caused by the salt on the roads . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please.

Order please. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek may ask his question. The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines on a point of order. HON. W. PARASIUK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I believe it's customary that if people want to send messages in to members of the Legislature that they do so through the Pages sending a note. We've just had someone come in and ask one of the Conservatives to go and see the House Leader and act as a messenger boy coming in and using it. The House procedures have never, ever been abused that way in my six years of experience in the House.

I believe that the normal custom is for messages to be sent in by . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. W. PARASIUK: . . . message by the Pages, not for people to come in and go like this and pass messages through that way. I would ask you to take this under advisement, Mr. Speaker, because we have a whole set of rules that have traditionally been used. I believe that over the last six years it's never been abused in that way and I would hope you would take that under consideration. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa to the same point of order. MR. A. KOVNATS: Yes, on the same point of order, Mr. Speaker.

It has been brought to my attention that I'm being criticized for bringing a message, a very important personal message that's none of his bloody business. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Yes, Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. In all of my 14 years in this House, I have seen 5878

Tuesday, 7 February, 1984 many occasions when somebody in the loge has referred to somebody along the back that they'd like to speak to somebody in the House - or a previous member wanting to talk to somebody. Mr. Speaker, all I can suggest is that the government reminds me of my grandson in his high chair; he's batting away at it al! the time. They're really a bunch of children and that's what's really happening. Mr. Speaker, to continue my question to the Minister MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines to the same point of order. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, I in fact, listened to the point of order for the Member for Sturgeon Creek and that's one of the reasons why I'm rising. Mr. Speaker, I know that the Member for Sturgeon Creek has never bothered to be confused by the facts, but I think facts are quite important even for someone like him. The member that came in and used the Member for Niakwa as a messenger did not come and sit in the loge which is a normal customary practice, and Mr. Speaker, that in my estimation is a normal practice to be followed all the time. If people want to participate in the Legislature, Mr.

Speaker, and you yourself acted with respect to a member in the gallery who breached the rules of the gallery, what holds for people in the gallery holds for everyone here, I would expect If people want to speak in this Legislature, they should be elected. Mr. Speaker, the Member for lnkster was elected in the last election, the former Member for lnkster was not MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry to the same point. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, to the same point of order, if indeed there is a point of order.

One, I think, would have to conclude that the crucial question in this issue is whether the Minister of Mines and Energy would have been so righteously indignant, Sir, if the message had come in as to whether the visitor could speak to him. I think there is a . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. MR. l. SHERMAN: I think that sort of episode may actually occur fairly soon now, Mr. Speaker, with the arrival in the loge of the former Honourable Member for lnkster. But that, I think, is the crucial question.

Would there have been so much beating of his breast and indignation and wrath if the message had come to the Minister of Mines and Energy, rather than to the House Leader of this party, Sir? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines to the same point of order. HON. W. PARASIUK: I would be delighted to answer the question of the Member for Fort Garry. He got up on a point of order and asked me a set of questions. No one ruled that point of order out of order. Mr.

Speaker, I am delighted to always follow the rules of the Legislature and if the Page comes in with a message for me, if my time is not taken up, I will go out and talk to a person, but certainly I wouldn't want the rules to be changed or to be different for a person in the gallery or a person here. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside also to the point of order. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, always being one who wishes to facilitate the smooth operation of this House, let me dispel the point of order that is now being discussed by informing all members what the message was, by asking the First Minister a question. I am now in the question period, Mr. Speaker. Bi lingualism in Ma nitoba MR. H. ENNS: I direct this question to the First Minister, who just a few moments ago in this Chamber said that it was the opposition that was opposing him on this vexatious question and that he knew that the silent majority and most fair-minded Manitobans supported him on the proposal before us. Mr.

Speaker, my question to the First Minister is: what political leader would not take advantage of that kind of situation and call an election and kill two birds with one stone? Get rid of the opposition and have the people of Manitoba sustain his position. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. Does anyone else wish to advise the speaker on the point of order? The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I think it's unfortunate that this incident has blown out of proportion by the humour of the incident which occurred.

But I think the point of order . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Sturgeon Creek had his turn. Mr. Speaker, the point of order that was raised related to communications by former members who have right of access to the loge with members, and traditionally those communications have taken place in the loge. The direct communication to members and speaking to members in their seats in this Assembly certainly is not appropriate.

I think that's the point of order and to go beyond that or blow it up into something more than that by members on either side is inappropriate. Mr. Speaker, I think the point of order from that perspective is legitimate and I think in deference to former members, the direction that they have access to the loge, should be in no way be affected, but certainly approaches to members in their seats should be forbidden by former members just as it is to strangers who are sometimes, rarely excluded from the 5879

Tuesday, 7 February, 1984 gallery for expressly that purpose - trying to communicate with members. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside to the same point. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I would think that this would be the kind of situation that quite appropriately the Honourable Government House Leader or indeed any other member could quite legitimately refer to the Rules Committee of this House. MR. SPEAKER: Is the House prepared to proceed with question period? The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek, I believe was recognized. Flyer Industries limited MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would ask the Minister in charge of Flyer, the problems of the buses that were supplied to B. C. have been announced to this House and made public regarding the electrical problems in the buses, but the problems with the buses in Chicago, with cracked axles and loose bolts, etc., are definitely a problem that is production within the plant. Can the Minister explain what is being done to solve that problem and what will the costs be to the Province of Manitoba or to Flyer for this problem to be solved with the Chicago buses? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTVRA: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. As I indicated in response to questions related to this same area by the Member for La Verendrye a few days ago, the Chief Executive officer of Flyer has been in Chicago dealing with that problem first-hand and is attempting to determine the actual cause of the problems and to take the necessary corrective action. With respect to what costs might be involved in that corrective action, I don't have that information obviously at the present time because they're in the midst or in the process of dealing with those problems and the related corrective action. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister's answer is saying that the authority in Chicago, who said that there are structural cracks and loose front axle bolts on 163 diesel powered buses - is the Minister saying that he is going to get a complete report from the management of Flyer regarding the production problems within that plant. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, I indicated that I would be getting a further report from the Board of Directors of Flyer Industries and their chief executive officer with respect to the present difficulties that are facing Flyer with respect to that contract. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister last week said that delivery problems were caused because of strikes in the United States. It has been reported that there is a company in Manitoba, that if they had the maids could supply the fronts for buses tomorrow, or if they didn't have the maids they could do it within a week. If the product cannot be supplied from United States, is the government instructing Flyer to look at the Manitoba industry to supply these fronts, who will definitely employ Manitobans to do the job? HON. E. KOSTVRA: Mr.

Speaker, I will inquire with the Board of Directors of Flyer Industry with respect to that particular problem, though I would hope and I would expect that Flyer Industries is supporting the government policy with respect to procurement in the Province of Manitoba wherever possible to ensure that there are additional benefits and additional jobs to Manitoba with respect to major enterprises like Flyer Industries. Remand Centre policies MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Community Services.

The Free Press carried a report yesterday saying that an elderly couple ages 78 and 75 respectively were apprehended and placed in the drunk tank at the Remand Centre and were refused a phone call home so that somebody could come and pick them up. Can the Minister say under what criteria and circumstances people are locked up in the drunk tank at the Remand Centre, and is no respect whatsoever shown for age? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, the department has taken action to see that there's no one admitted to the Remand Centre who hasn't been formally charged and to increase our capacity to send intoxicated persons to the Main Street facility. We've also strengthened the standing orders, so that any apprehended person will not only be given the opportunity to phone someone of their choice, but if they are unable to do so the staff will undertake, if there is identification and name of someone else, to make that phone call on their behalf.

We have also strengthened the requirements of medical supervision of inmates in the Remand Centre so that they not only get a check when they first come in, but there is an actual visual check every half hour and a direct physical check every hour. MR. A. BROWN: My question is to the same Minister. Can the Minister say why people suffering from diabetic shock are also placed in the drunk tank? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I believe the member opposite is referring to a case that occurred one year ago.

We did ask for a check into it and found that a misjudgment had occurred on the part of the people involved because of the apparent behaviour of the elderly people. We, in no way, support the actions that were taken and have taken every action from our side to prevent inappropriate action toward elderly or potentially ill people who sometimes in their illness may give the appearance of being intoxicated. 5880

Tuesday, 7 February, 1984 MR. A. BROWN: My question is to the same Minister. Has the Minister inquired why breathalyzers or blood tests are not administered to determine what the levels of alcohol are, whether they're above the allowable level or whether any alcohol was involved at the time that they were apprehended? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, it's my understanding that the orders we've given and the procedures to be followed should take into account any inappropriate treatment of anyone who may be intoxicated.

We feel that they are entitled to a medical checkup, but also in the longer run, having an alternative facility for intoxicated persons is by far the most appropriate solution and we're working to make that arrangement with another agency so that we can reduce the number of intoxicated people who are held in the Remand Centre. MR. A. BROWN: Well, Mr. Speaker, the Minister has not answered whether she is going to ask the people at the Remand Centre to administer breathalyzers or blood tests to determine whether alcohol is involved.

I would hope that she would answer that question and look into that particular matter. Has the Minister received a full report on the incident of Mr. Moore's death during his stay in the drunk tank? HON. M. SMITH: With regard to the first question, Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that the medical check orders that are in place now will go far beyond just a check of the blood or whether they will use an inhalation method or whether they will use the blood test, I don't know. I am satisf ied that the procedures to be undertaken will be more protective than a simple breathalyzer test.

With regard to the case of the individual mentioned, yes, we have had a report. There was also another case that was being referred to by the member opposite earlier and it's concern over the elderly and the infirm that has led us to strengthen all the procedures which I outlined at the beginning of the accident. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, I commend the Police Department for intercepting drunken drivers or drivers suffering from shock or other circumstances. We certainly don't want to have these people on the road. Can the Minister say whether Mr.

Moore was driving a car or under what circumstances was he apprehended? HON. 1111. SMITH: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think there may be some confusion between the different cases. I'd prefer not to discuss all the details of the individual cases here. There was a case of an elderly person who did die while in the Remand Centre. There was also the case last year of another elderly pair. I would undertake to discuss the matter with the member opposite and share the appropriate material with him.

I think the important point to be taken is that we take preventative measures in the future to see that procedures are improved so that such a thing need never happen again to an elderly or an intoxicated person. Finance, Department of - Quarterly Report MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. 13. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. Can the Minister advise the House when the quarterly report for the period ending December 31st is likely to be made available? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V.

SCHROEDER: I would expect that it would be ready within another month or so. MR. B. RANSOM: In view of the fact that it might be as long as a month, Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Finance give an indication to the House now in what budgeted areas of expenditure the Minister would expect that the full allotment would not be expended? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Overall, in most areas there will be less spending than we had originally budgeted for. That, incidentally, is quite contrary to the predictions of the members opposite.

When I gave the Budget Speech last year, I recall the Member for Pembina talking about fudging figures . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. I would remind people in the gallery, that cameras are not permitted by the Rules of this House in the gallery. The Honourable Minister of Finance may finish his question. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The preliminary estimates that I have now for the third quarter would indicate that there will be somewhat less spent than we had anticipated in the last report we had provided at the six-month level, that is, the nine­ month report will indicate again somewhat of an improvement in the budgetary position. Again, that's certainly quite different from what members of the opposition attempted to project to the public, that we were underestimating our spending and that we were overestimating our revenues. They were wrong on both. They were wrong by hundreds of millions of dollars. They were wrong.

Not only were they wrong in terms of hundreds of millions of dollars, but some of them - and I don't include here the Mem:ier for Turtle Mountain - were saying we were deliberately attempting to mislead people. They were the ones who misled the people of Manitoba. They were the ones who put fear out there about $700-million, $800-million deficits. They were the ones who were totally wrong on what happened this year. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. NON- POLITICAL STATEMENT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if I could have leave of the House to make a short non-political announcement? 5881

Tuesday, 7 February, 1984 MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I think we should take note of the fact that today in Sarajevo, Yugoslavia that Canada beat the United States 4 - 2 in Olympic hockey. This is of special note and interest to the members of the Chamber and to the people of Manitoba, because the person who scored three of the four goals is a Winnipegger, Carey Wilson, who scored a hat trick and should receive the congratulations and best wishes of all Manitobans. ORDE RS OF THE DAY MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure whether or not it's appropriate to call as an Order of the Day a matter that is standing in your name with respect to the motion I made yesterday. It would be my intention to deal with that first, if that is possible, Sir; if not, I would be calling, since it is inappropriate, Sir, to ask you a question, it was my intention, Sir, to determine whether or not your ruling was ready by calling that item. If that is inappropriate, Sir, I will call another item. MR.

SPEAKER: The matter that I took under advisement yesterday is being given the same careful consideration as other matters and will be so communicated to this House when it is ready. ADJOURNED DEBATE ON RESOLUTION CONSTITUTIONAL AM END MENT RE: OFFICIAL LANGUAGES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Health, that debate on the motion of the Honourable Attorney­ General respecting the proposed amendment to The Manitoba Act concerning

Section 23 thereof and on any amendments proposed thereto shall not be further adjourned. MR. SPEAKER: It is moved by the Honourable Government House Leader and seconded by the Minister of Health, that the debate on the motion of the Honourable Attorney-General respecting the proposed amendment to The Manitoba Act concerning

Section 23 thereof and on any amendments proposed thereto shall not be further adjourned. Those in favour, please say Aye. Those opposed, please say Nay. In my opinion the Ayes have it, and I declare the motion carried. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. Order please. I have been advised by the Official Opposition Whip that the opposition will not return before 2:00 p.m. tomorrow. In view of this advice I have informed Chamber staff that they will not be required to remain on duty outside normal working hours.

I have made arrangements to secure the Chamber, and the sounding of the bells will be minimized to the greatest extent possible. I am accordingly leaving the Chair to return at 10:00 p.m. this evening in order to adjourn the House. (And the Division Bells having stopped ringing at 10:00 p.m.) MR. SPEAKER: The time of adjournment having arrived, this House is adjourned and will stand adjourned until 2:00 p.m. tomorrow (Wednesday). 5882