Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 51 (29th Legislature, 2nd Session)

29-2-51

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

.. ~ .. ,~'f-,k';.:*':'~~,~·~~tt-:~~,¥~~~'R\b"'+A$J4}~1Qlf!rAAi&:?#.A~~'?:";~~~~-:,:;·· _: ~ ,- ~·--~:-~\~ (-._~:13:J Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS j .. .-c-··._··1· __ ) ~·~~~":,-, :~7<-·.- .. : .> l ;~ Speaker The Honourable Ben Hanuschak VoL XVII No. 51 10:00 a.m., Friday, April 24th, 1970. Second Session, 29th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans - Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

ELECTORAL DIVISION ARTHUR ASSINIBOIA BIRTLE-RUSSELL BRANDON EAST BRANDON WEST BURROWS CHARLESWOOD CHURCHILL CRESCENTWOOD DAUPHIN ELMWOOD EMERSON FUN FLON FORT GARRY FORT ROUGE GIMLI GLADSTONE INKSTER KILDONAN LAC DU BONNET LAKESIDE LA VERENDRYE i LOGAN ~oK~~~SA I PEMB'INA f POINT DOUGLAS 1 PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE ~ I~. =~I~~D '~~' .. ,.. RIVER HEIGHTS f( -.. "=g~~~~AKE i. ROSSMERE RUPERTSLAND ST. BONIFACE ST. GEORGE ST. JAMES ST. JOHNS ST.MATIHEWS ST. VITAL STE. ROSE SELKIRK SEVEN OAKS SOURIS-KILLARNEY SPRINGFIELD STURGEON CREEK SWAN RIVER THE PAS THOMPSON TRANSCONA VIRDEN WELLINGTON WINNIPEG CENTRE WOLSELEY NAME J.

Douglas Watt Steve Patrick Harry E. Graham Hon. Leonard S. Evans Edward McGill Hon. Ben Hanuschak Arthur Moug Gordon Wilbert Beard Cy Gonick Hon. Peter Burtniak Russell J. Doern Gabriel Girard Thomas Barrow L. R. (Bud) Sherman Mrs. Inez Trueman John C. Gottfried James Robert Ferguson Hon. Sidney Green, Q.C. Peter Fox Hon. Sam Uskiw Harry J. Enns Leonard A. Barkman William Jenkins Walter Weir Warner H. Jorgenson lan Turnbull George Henderson Donald Malinowski Gordon E. Johnston Harry Shafransky Jacob M. Froese Donald W. Craik Sidney Spivak, Q.C. J. Wally McKenzie Henry J. Einarson Hon. Ed.

Schreyer Jean Allard Laurent L. Desjardins William Uruski Hon. A. H. Mackling, O.C. Hon. Saul Cherniack, Q.C. Wally Johannson J. A. Hardy Gildas Molgat Hon. Howard Pawley Hon. Saul A. Miller Earl McKellar Hon. Rene E. Toupin Frank Johnston James H. Bilton Ron McBryde Hon. Joseph P. Borowski Hon. Russell Paulley Morris McGregor Hon. Philip Petursson J. R. (Bud) Boyce Leonard H.

Claydon ADDRESS Reston, Manitoba 10 Red Robin Place, Winnipeg 12 Binscarth, Manitoba Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 2228 Princess Ave., Brandon, Man. 11 Aster Ave., Winnipeg 17 29 Willow Ridge Rd., Winnipeg 20 103 Copper Rd., Thompson, Man. 115 Kingsway, Winnipeg 9 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 104 Roberta Ave., Winnipeg 15 25 Lomond Blvd., St. Boniface 6 Cranberry Portage, Manitoba 86 Niagara St., Winnipeg 9 179 Oxford St., Winnipeg 9 44 - 3rd Ave., Gimli, Man.

Gladstone, Manitoba Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 627 Prince Rupert Ave., Winnipeg 15 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Woodlands, Manitoba Box 130, Steinbach, Man. 1287 Alexander Ave., Winnipeg 3 Room 250, Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Box 185, Morris; Man. 284 Wildwood Park, Winnipeg 19 Manitou, Manitoba 361 Burrows Ave., Winnipeg 4 Room 248, Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 4 Maplehurst Rd., St. Boniface 6 Box 40, Winkler, Manitoba 2 River Lane, Winnipeg 8 1516 Mathers Bay, West, Winnipeg 9 Inglis, Manitoba Glenboro, Manitoba Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 119 Provencher Ave., St. Boniface 6 357 Des Meurons St., St.

Boniface 6 Box 629, Arborg, Manitoba Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Ll!gislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 15-500 Burnell St., Winnipeg 10 11 Glenlawn Ave., Winnipeg 8 463 Kingston Crescent, Winnipeg 8 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Nesbitt, Manitoba Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 310 Overdale St., Winnipeg 12 Swan River, Manitoba 56 Paul Ave., The Pas, Manitoba Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Kenton, Manitoba Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 777 Winnipeg Ave., Winnipeg 3 116% Sherbrook St., Winnipeg 1

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10:00 o'clock, Friday, April 24, 1970 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Re ports by Standing and Special Committees. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS At this point, I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members~~ to the gal lery where we have with us 30 Grade 7 students of the St. Andrew's School. These students are under the direction of Mrs. Wehrle. This school is located in the constituency of the lion ourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. And we have 70 Grade 7 and 8 students of the J.

B. Mitchell School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Lomas and Mrs. Arnason; This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for River Heights. On behalf of all the Honourable Members of the Legislative Assembly, I welcome you here this morning. REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Member from The Pas. The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. JEAN ALLARD (Rupertsland): Stand, Mr. Speaker? (Agreed.) MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion. INTRODUCTION OF ffiLLS HON. AL MACKLING, Q.C. (Attorney-General)(St.

James) introduced Bill No. 54,

An Act to amend The Liquor Control Act (2); and Bill No. 58,

An Act to amend The Securities Act. MR. RON McBRYDE (The Pas) introduced Bill No. 44,

An Act respecting The Town of The Pas. MR. HARRY SHAFRANSKY (Radisson), on behalf of Mr. Uruski, introduced Bill No. 64,

An Act consenting to the merger and amalgamation of the Manitoba Farmers Union with the National Farmers Union and others. (Second reading next Monday.) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable M~>mber for Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Well, are we on Orders of the Day, Sir? I'd like to direct a question to the Socialist Premier of the Province and ask him who he has en gaged to draft the automobile insurance legislation for Manitoba. HON, ED. SCHREYER (Premier)(Rossmere): Well, Mr.

Speaker, that is a matter that I don't believe should be- I don't believe that any answer is required to that question. Legisla tion is being drafted on the instructions being given by the Minister of Municipal AffairS and the Cabinet. MR. JORGENSON: Are we to understand that people who are going to be paid by the tax payers of this province, we do not have a right to know who they are? MR. SCHREYER: The legislation is being drafted by draftsmen in the employ of the Province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. INEZ TRUEMAN (Fort Rouge): Mr.

Speaker, I would have liked to have addressed my question to the Minister of Health and Social Services, but in his absence perhaps the First Minister would tell me to what extent staff cuts have taken place at Selkirk Mental Hospital and were these measures of economy? MR. SCHREYER: None to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, but I shall take the questionias notice. MRS. TRUEMAN: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister then please also inquire ab01,1t the elderly women who are there with psychiatric problems relating to senility.

I have~ been m: formed that because of the shortage of staff there can only be one nurse looking after many elderly women, and that therefore in order to keep them under some sort of control the women are not free to move from their bedrooms to their sitting rooms, the doors cannot be locked and therefore these women are tied in their chairs ..... MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I think that there's a particularity

1240 April 24, 1970 ( MR. · MACKLI NG cont• d. ) •• • • given in the question which is suggesting a number of irreg ularities which ought not to be suggested in a question. A question should be specific, surely. 1\IBS;.. TRUEMAN: May I ask then if the Minister would inquire whether these women are tied in their chairs so that one nurse can look after them all? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I rise to also ask whether the question, in the way it was put, was in order. However, since it has now been asked fully, I will take the question as notice.

May I take the opportunity to advise my honourable friend, the Member for Fort Rouge, that if such a situation obtains at the present time, I think it would be fair to assume that that has been the practice for many years. We have authorized no such change in pro cedure or practice at the hospital but I shall check. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR (Virden): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct my question to the Minister of Agriculture, respecting government's consideration of hail insurance policy.

Did you request the national system, Federal Government - I think in your estimates you said you had and you had been refused. The second phase of that question, have you asked them to participate since you announced your government insurance program; and third, are you re ceiving other grants in lieu of direct government participation. And the fourth part, could he table correspondence regarding this entire subject. MR. SCHREYER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

I'm sorry to interrupt my honour able friend but I think, Sir, you will find that questions of the kind just put, lengthy, requiring detailed information, should really be put forward as an Order for Return and cannot be en tertained as an oral question before Orders of the Day. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, I have a question .... MR. SPEAKER: If I may, I do concur with the point of order raised by the Honourable First Minister, that the information sought by the Honourable Member for.

Virden perhaps would be more appropriate for an Order for Return. MR. McGREGOR: Then I would just ask the last part then. Could he table, or I'll make an Order for Return for correspondence regarding the entire subject. HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour)(Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I think it's been pointed out to my honourable friend that this would require an Order for Return which would require due notice, so I suggest to my friend that he makes application for it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Labour.

At the present time the CP Railway is laying off anywhere between 500 and 800 staff. Is the Minister aware how many people will be affected in Winnipeg and has he had any communication \ with any of the local offices? MR. PAULLEY: I wonder if my honourable friend would repeat his question; I didn't hear the first part. MR. PATRICK: The CP Railway is laying off some five to eight hundred people at the present time. Is the Minister aware how many people will be affected in Winnipeg, or in Manitoba, and has he had any communication with the local offices. MR. PAULLEY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I'm not aware of any layoffs on the CPR. I met with the Vice-President of the CPR in my office just the other day on a number of matters dealing with employment on the CPR. There was no indication given to me at that time, Mr. Speaker, of any curtailment of staff in the Winnipeg area, but I'd be glad to check into it for my honourable friend. MR. PATRICK: Okay. Perhaps I could just give him a little more information. It's in reference to clerical staff, and anywhere between 500 and 800 in Canada, so I'm sure there's a pretty high figure affected in Winnipeg. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, for a point of clarification, I thought my friend said at the offset five to eight hundred of the CPR as far as Manitoba. It is across Canada, is it? I'll endeavour to find the information for my honourable friend. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable MAmber for Churchill. MR. GORDON W. BEARD (Churchill): Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Honour able Minister of Industry and Commerce. I do understand via long distance telegraph that most of the buildings have been rented in Churchill. Can you advise us as to what will take place?

What these buildings are being rented for? --(Interjection) -- Pretty well all of the buildings, I understand, in Churchill have been rented - public buildings.

April 24, 1970 HON, LEONARD S. EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce)(Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, this is a situation that is resulting from action by the Federal Government as the hon ourable member knows. However, we will endeavour to get a detailed report on that for the honourable member, and therefore I'll take the question as notice. MR. BEARD: A subsequent question. I don't know and I'm asking questions. Is it through federal authority that they're being rented or is this private enterprise? MR. EVANS: Well, Mr.

Speaker, again, I'll take the question as notice and will have a report for the honourable member. MR. BEARD: You have no information on this at all? MR. EVANS: Not at the moment, no. While I'm on my feet, Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member from Portage la Prairie asked a question a short time ago respecting whether I had any knowledge of whether the Halifax General Insurance Company was proceeding with plans to build a head office in Winnipeg, and my information is that the Halifax Insurance Company has long been established in Halifax, Nova Scotia.

Its head office has long been established in that city with permanent executive offices in Toronto and there's no change in that situation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Another question to the Minister then. It was my understanding that they were building a western headquarters, so perhaps when I said "head office" I was not exactly correct. So my question is, is the Halifax General Insurance Company still building a western office in Winnipeg? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, the answer is yes they are, and they are locating it in Edmonton.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the First Min ister supplementary to the question asked by my colleague the Member for Morris. Could he tell us when legislation will be before the House regarding automobile insurance? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the legislation will be brought before this House just as soon as it has been drafted, and it is being drafted by a number of draftsmen. Therefore, when· the Honourable Member for Morris asked who was drafting it, the answer is "more than one person." MR. WATT: May we expect it next week? MR.

SCHREYER: ... the honourable member has patient expectation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. JACOB M, FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Honourable the Attorney-General. Could the Honourable Minister provide us with the terms of reference under which legal. aid is given to applicants? MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, that will require a fairly lengthy. answer and I'll be de lighted to give the full explanation during the introduction of my estimates which should follow immediately upon the completion of the estimates of the Minister of Cultural Affairs. -- (Inter jection) --Yes, perhaps slides could be arranged if the honourable member is interested. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable the Minister of Youth and Education, a question which was put to him first in the estimates and subsequently in the question period.

It relates to the distribution of the university grants be tween the three universities of Manitoba. I wonder if he has that information now. HON. SAUL A, MILLER (Minister of Youth and Education)(Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, in reply to the question, it has been the practice for the distribution to be made, or the announce ment of distribution to be made after the estimates are passed. I'm informed by the Chairman of the University Grants Commission that a letter has gone forward to the three universities. I'll be getting a copy of that and I'll make that information available to the House at that time. MR.

McGILL: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Another question which I a$ked of the Minister and he told me he would look into, the representation of the three universities on the Grants Commission. Is he able to say now whether all three universities are represented on the .Commission? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I received the information this morning. No, present representation does not include the three universities. From the very beginning only the one university was represented, that was the University of Manitoba.

i ' 1242 April 24, 1970 MR. McGILL: .Mr. Speaker, a final question of the Minister. He referred to a committee which recommended additional appointments to the Senate in Brandon. Was this committee appointed by the Minister or by the Board of Governors? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, the Committee was appointed by the three groups that par ticipated in the discussion: the Board of Governors of the University of Brandon, the Senate of the University of Brandon and the Students Union of the University of Brandon. My department nor the Minister had nothing to do with the appointments whatsoever. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, MRS. TRUEMAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the Honourable Attorney-General. To whom should my client, Mr. Pankhurst, turn in order to clear his name after serving a sentence for a crime he says he didn•t commit? MR.

MACKLING: If the honourable member would make an Order for Return or give me sufficient detail as to the claim so that all members can be informed of this situation fully, so that it doesn't appear that there's some unusual injustices involved that's implied in her ques tion and so that every member of this Assembly would have a fair understanding of what's in volved, I'll be happy to deal with it at length in this Assembly.

However, as the honourable member knows, there is an Ombudsman in this province and where anyone feels that they have suffered an injustice for which there is no remedy at law, the Ombudsman can be appealed to. If for some reason he has no jurisdiction, then that person may not be able to appeal further if they have lost their appeal to the higher courts, As I've indicated to her when I spoke to her outside of this House, I would be quite willing that she and so many of her assistants, or any person she wishes, could make themselves available of the information that I have in my department. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Transportation. HON. JOSEPH P, BOROWSKI (Minister of Transportation)(Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to correct a deliberately misleading statement that was made by the former Minister of Education on April 14th. I'd like to read the statement made before I make the correction. It's Page 928 in Hansard. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (River Heights): On a point of order, the Minister says he wants to correct a statement - is this a statement in Hansard? MR. BOROWSKI: Yes. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker, on this point of order, the Honourable Ministeris rising to correct a statement made by another honourable member and this is clearly not within the rules. If the Minister feels that a statemeDt made by another honourable member in this House, it is a proper point for debate, but it is not up to the Minister to rise on a point of order and correct the statement made by another member of this House. He has a legitimate point for debate if he chooses to debate it at the proper time, but this is certainly not the time to do it. MR.

BOROWSKI: On a point of order, I'm rising on Orders of the Day and I'd appreciate it if the assistant speaker would mind his own business while I get this thing straightened out. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman ... , MR. SPEAKER: Is the Honourable Minister rising to correct a statement made by him self? MR. BOROWSKI: I'm rising to correct a statement made by the former Minister of Edu cation in my estimates which was drawn to my atteDtion by my department. MR. SPEAKER: I do not believe that our rules allow one honourable member to correct a statement on behalf of another. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, if I might rise to the point of order that has been put before us by the Honourable Member for Morris, I think it is correct to say that if any honour able member of this House has reason to think that some other member has made a statement which is misleading, the member may rise in his place and ask or invite the member to cor rect it, or he may take it up as a matter of grievance on a motion to go into Supply. I believe that the Honourable Member for Morris would agree with that

interpretation. MR. JORGENSON: I have no objection to the honourable member taking it up on a point of grievance, that it's clearly within our rules, but for the Minister to rise now purporting to correct a statement in Hansard made by another member is clearly out of order, Sir. MR. PAULLEY: I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, to my honourable friend that that has been acknowledged as not being within the rules since there is a method by which the Honour able Minister of Transportation can air his grievance.

April 24, 1970 MR. SPEAKER: May I remind the honourable members that I had ruled on this lllatter a couple of minutes ago, and may I remind the Honourable Minister too that there are ways and means to bring before the House a matter that he wishes to bring if he so chooses to do, or in. other words, that matter can be brought before the House in some way. MR. BOROWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think that I can read the statement that was made. --(Interjection)-- Mr.

Speaker, are you suggesting that I'm not allowed on Orders of the Day to correct a statement, a false statement that was made by a former Minister of the Opposition? Is that your ruling, Mr. Speaker? MR. JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, that question that was put to you, I think is entirely out of order too. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. WATT: I was going to talk on this point of order, but if you've settled the question that's okay. --(Interjection)-- He hasn't got it through his head over there yet. STATEMENT MR.

SCHREYER: Before Orders of the Day, I would like to make a brief announcement. I should like to announce to this House, jointly with the President of Hudson• s Bay Mining and Smelting who is at this time making a similar announcement to a meeting of shareholders of that company in Toronto, the following. A copper zinc ore body has been discovered about nine miles southeast of Flin Flon which will be named the Centennial Mine to commemorate Manitoba's 100th year as a province.

Diamond drilling indicates approximately 1. 4 million tons to the 1200 foot level averaging 2. 06 percent copper, 2. 6 percent zinc and minor values of gold and silver. The ore body is still open at depth, and I take that to mean that it is unde termined as to depth at least to this point in time. Exploration leading to the discovery was conducted by Hudson• s Bay Exploration and Development Company Ltd., a wholly owned subsidiary of Hudson's Bay Mining. The deposit was discovered by drilling a geophysical anomaly beneath the ice of Lake Athapapuskow.

The claims on which the deposit was discovered were optioned from three Flin Flon weekend pros pectors, Dr. Normanateffanson, Harry Hanson and Watson Gilmore. The option was exercised with a final cash payment to the prospectors and the property is now wholly owned by Hudson• s Bay Mining. In

summary, Mr. Speaker, it would appear that this mine, to be called Centennial Mine, is now known to have at least 1. 4 million tons of ore of the percentage I just outlined. As I say, this statement is being made concurrently in Toronto for information. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, we are all very pleased to hear the an nouncement. It sounds like this is probably a third major area of discovery for Hudson Bay.

I think their first one of course was at Flin Flon, their second major area •as in the Stall Lake area, and now this one is in a different direction, nine miles southeast of Flin Flon, which in dicates it may be another major, or third major area for the company in that area. This has great implications, I'm sure, for the Town of Flin Flon and for the whole general area and we wish to join you in celebrating this announcement. One final comment from our side would be that we're very happy to see that private enterprise has again brought about this very success ful operation. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. G. JOHNSTON: We too welcome the Premier's announcement. It will mean some more tax dollars for the province eventually, I hope. I don't thfilk the Premier mentioned when the mine was scheduled to go into production. Is it to be kept for some time or is it due to be brought into production this year.

Also, I would give a word of warning, in our awakened con science in our battle against pollution, that Lake Athapap is one of the most beautiful lakes in the north and I hope that the mining will be carried out in such a way that there will be no permanent or even temporary damage done to this wonderful playground of the north. MR. FROESE: I wish to also express my congratulations and commend the enterprising mining companies for their persistence and their work to bring this about. I do hope that this venture will be so successful that from here on we will not need any further tax impositions. MR. BEARD: Mr.

Speaker, by leave, may I say .... MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Agreed. ) . MR. BEARD: I hope the impact of this announcement will sink into Manitoba as a whole because I believe it emphasizes the very importance of northern Manitoba which so many people

1244 Apn124, 1976 (MR. BEARD cont'd. ) ••••• neglect to respect. I congratulate both the Minister on the an n.ouncement and of course the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting who did pioneer much of northern Manitoba, and I am sure, I am very sure, Mr. Speaker, you'll hear more and more of the d~ velopment of the richest part of your province of Manitoba not only in the centennial year but in the many more to come. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. CY GONICK (Crescentwood): I'd like to ask the First Minister what arrangements ,and royalties were made with Hudson Bay Mining. MR.

SCHREYER: With respect to royalties in this particular case, Mr. Speaker, I can advise the honourable member that the formula is to stand by things stood by. The royalty ap plying here will be that that applies generally. ORDERS OF THE DAY- GOVERNMENT BILLS MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you'd kindly go to second reading of Bill 38. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on second reading, Bill.No. 38. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: .... the Minister isn't here, I wonder if I could ask to have this _ matter stand. MR. SPEAKER: (Agreed. ) The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q.

C. (Minister of Finance)(St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR. SPEAKER presented the Motion. MATTERS OF GRIEVANCE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, I rise on a matter of grievance and the grievance relates to the northern hydro power development and the dire need for further information so that the members of the Legislature can more adequately assess the various matters that should be as sessed before we go into the Public Utilities Committee. I would like to stay fairly close to a short statement that I would like to make in this connection. The develepment of Nelson River Power is the most ambitious and far-reaching project ever undertaken by Manitoba and it will strain the financial capability of this Province.

Our decisions will have far-reaching effects throughout the entire province, including education, health and social services, transportation, agriculture, industry and commerce, and probably above all, minerals development. I've been concerned for some time about the discussions in which we have all participated during the last couple of years as to how to provide additional electrical power to meet the _ needs of the province.

I have been concerned as a member of the Legislature and as an engi neer as to whether the emotional, political, sociological or other considerations are not unduly affecting our objectivity in deciding what is really best for the province. By no stretch of the imagination do I suggest that we should consider only the financial aspects, but on the other hand I cannot accept the principle that money should not be considered. This province and its people are not so wealthy that we can afford the luxury of neglecting to look at the costs.

I have had some time to study the reports respecting northern power development includ ing those which were recently issued regarding the alternatives for generating power. As can be expected, these are complicated and it takes some time to study them. However, they can be, and should be, boiled down into terms and conditions and costs that the members of the Legislature and the public can understand. Our job, as members of the Legislature, is to make sure that studies have been adequately done, fairly done, that the author's terms of re ference have been such that he could do a proper study.

We must be sure that we are getting the best advice we can. We can expect, and I think we should insist, that the technical people give us clear, concise and factual answers to our questions in a form that all of us can under stand. I realize that there are always assumptions, conditions, modifications and other fac tors that can affect answers. However, I also know that if a matter cannot be expressed so that members of this Legislature can understand it, then the information is probably not com pletely and adequately presented.

April 24, 1970 (MR. CRAIK Cont'd.) .. I would expect that the answers which are given to our questions in the House and in: the forthcoming meeting of the Public Utilities Committee of the Legislature will be in such !dorm that all of the members of the Legislature can understand them. When the Legislature deliber ates on this matter, its reasoning should be understood by the people of the province. If we do our job properly here, there should be general, if not complete, agreement that all factors have been taken into account and that the course chosen is the best course for Manitoba.

The very idea that one project would be built if one political party were in power and another project would be built if another party were in power is abhorrent to me as a member of the Legislature and as an engineer, as I know it is to all others here. For this reason I . have spent a considerable amount of time trying to· understand the reports and to make up my own mind as to what should be done. In the course of these studies several basic questions come up that are not answered in the reports, and I think should be answered before the Public Utilities Committee considers the matter.

These questions are not only for my clarification, but the answers are needed by anyone considering the projects proposed. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. May I recommend our House Rule No. 42 as appropriate reading material for many honourable members at this time. The honourable member may proceed. MR.

CRAIK: During the Public Utilities Committee's deliberations, there will undoubtedly be some further questions stemming from the answers to these, but I would like to repeat that these are a sincere effort to throw some light on the method of providing power for Manitoba and with always the humble understanding that the decisions being made now will affect Manltoba for many many succeeding generations. In phrasing each question, I have given a

preamble so that the reference in the reports to which I am alluding will be clear not only to those providing the answers, but to all of you who will be reading the reports. The first basic question regards the time horizon for the present studies. Long-range planning is essential in the hydro-electric power field because of the tremendous capital out lays involved. Previous planning and projections have been carried out on at least a 40-year time horizon.

And an example here, Manitoba Hydro's presentation to the Standing Committee on Public Utilities on March 8th, 1966, showed load developments and projections for the 40- year period from 1960 to 2000 - to the year 2000. The most recent studies were limited to con sider a 20-year period from 1973 to 1993. The question is: why· was the 20-year time horizon set for these latter studies?

(2) Objectives.

Chapter 3 of the report on System Power Studies presents a general description of criteria and objectives and lists national, regional (and presumably Manitoba when we refer to regional) and environmental quality (presumably both Manitoba as well as the rest of the nation in this portion) objectives as being of paramount importance, but does not state explicitly what these three objectives are. Page 3- 3, second paragraph states: "It should be clear that by eliminating or over-emphasizing one of these three objectives, it is pos sible to determine different optimal systems.

In the present study all three objectives were present and all were important." The question is: What were the regional and environmental quality objectives that were given to the consultants for the guidance of their studies? And what were the basic objectives and terms of studies that led to the former high-level diversion recommendation?

(3) Objectives of the Present Studies. With reference to the study objectives, I would appreciate clarification of the statement made in the last sentence on Page 4- 26 of the Report on Systems Power Studies: "The following objective function was deemed to represent an ac ceptable compromise between the requirements of the Terms of Reference interpreted in their most strict and broadest senses. "

(4) Meaningful Comparison of Alternatives. Page 122 of the Report on Study of Alterna tive Diversions contains the following statements: "In spite of including in the costs the net loss of all affected resources, the indicated optimum development has proven over the practical capability range, to be very similar to an alternative which, after earlier studies, was criti~ cized because of the magnitude of adverse effect on social considerations. Although th~ in tangible nature of social considerations is recognized, an alternative which will relieve sociological effects appreciably has not been found, with the possible exception of a minimum

1246 April 24, 197~ (MR. CRAIK cont'd.). scheme of development diverting minimum flows from South Indian Lake and maintaining the lake close to its natural range. " A direct, meaningful comparison of the alternatives now studied and suggested as "optimum" with the originally proposed high-level diversion scheme has not been presented. I would appreciate such a comparison which could best be presented in tabular form including all the pertinent items for each alternative such as project capital cost, cost of power produced in terms of mils per kw/hr, area flooded, elevation of storage level and their fluctuations, estimated resource or other losses or benefits, etc.

(5) Direct Current Transmission Facilities. Mr. W. D. Fallis has stated that there will be certain excess capacity available in the D. C. transmission system which could be advanta geously utilized by plants on the Nelson River and the Churchill River diversion. How much excess capacity will be available during the latter five years of the latest study period, that is during 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993, and what were the reasons for providing this excess capacity?

(6) Benefits of Power Exports. The Report on System Power Studies which presents a

summary and evaluation of the work done in connection with the recent studies and presumably forms the basis on which decisions regarding Churchill River diversion will be made, states on Page 2 - 2: "The present report does not discuss the results of quantitative analysis of the benefits of importing and exporting power out of the province after 1977. " And the question is: Why are these benefits not discussed?

(7) Costs. In order to place the alternative studies in proper perspective, it is necessary to know the total expenditures required. What is the cash flow, for the present study period, of all the various committed capital expenditures associated with the Nelson River Power devel opment? And I refer here to such things as the Kettle powerhouse and associated works, such as the D. C. Transmission facilities, etc.

(8) Mining. Considerations subsequent to the earlier high-level diversion recommenda tion to government included the future power requirements of mining operations that might be located between the Churchill and Nelson rivers, in particular there was a realistic speculation that a large portion if not all the power potential of a structure at Notigi might be required for milling, smelting and possibly refining based on present mineralogical information. The ques tion is: To what extent have such considerations been included in guiding the most recent studies?

(9) Diversion of Churchill River Water via the Sturgeon Weir River. Under present economic conditions, it is most desirable to minimize capital expenditure and to employ all feasibl~ means to increase power output of plant already constructed. The Sturgeon Weir diversion would appear to provide such a means. It would apparently not increase the flood frequency and extent on Lake Winnipeg, even without control works on the lake, and present indications are that its incorporation into the overall scheme would, in effect, form a desirable, if not optimum, solution.

The original terms of reference for the studies included this diver sion, but at a later date Manitoba Hydro instructed the consultants to not consider this alternative. The question is: Why were the terms of reference changed and this alternative not studied?

(10) Lake Winnipeg RFJgUlation. Numerous previous reports and statements - and I refer here to references 5, 3 and 6 which I have listed at the back- have claimed that Lake Winnipeg regulation forms an essential part of the Nelson River power development. One part of the recent studies, No. 7, also finds that major benefits may accrue from such regulation. How ever, the

summary overall assessment of all the recent studies in reference No. 1 states, on Page 5- 10 and 6- 5, that Lake Winnipeg regulation does not form a desirable component in any alternative studied, except the most restricted and costly one. The question is: What are the reasons for the apparent conflict between the previous and the present appraisals of the desirability and importance of Lake Winnipeg regulation?

(11) Federal Government Participation. The Federal Government participated actively and substantially in the original studies- and I refer to reports 3, 4 and 5- and decided that there were certain federal objectives that coul.d be met- and I refer here to reference 1- in the development of the Nelson River power system as then visualized and undertook to finance the required D. C. transmission facilities. The question is: To what extent did the Federal Government participate in the present extensive and far-reaching re-appraisal of this power development?

April 24, 1970 (MR. CRAIK cont' d.) . The references to which I have made -- the references which I have made in the statement, 'I Mr. Speaker, I should list them for Hansard purPoses. They are: No. 1. Underwood, McLellan and Associates Ltd. - "Report on System Power Studies Related to Studies of Alternative Churchill River Diversion", March 1970. No. 2. Underwood, McLellan and Associates- "Churchill River Diversion, Study of Alternative Diversions", February 1970. No. 3. W. D. Fallis, Manitoba Hydro- Statement made before the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources, May 15, 1969. No. 4.

"Nelson River Investigations"- Report of Administrative Committee to Program ming Board, February 6, 1964. No. 5. "Nelson River Hydro-Electric Development, Phase 1"- Interim Report of the Nelson River Programming Board to the Government of Canada and the Government of Manitoba, May 27, 1964. No. 6. D. Cass-Beggs- "The Proposed Churchill River Diversion and Associated Problems", September 9, 1969, No. 7. G. E. Crippen& Associates- "Report on Lake Winnipeg Regulation", January, 1970. Mr.

Speaker, I bring this before the House at this time on a matter of grievance because of the dire need for further information and the great importance of this matter to the people of Manitoba at this time. I'm not sure how all the questions will be handled, but I would like to present this to the government and, if necessary, some of them can be put in the form of an Order for Return, others may have to be covered in the estimates of the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources.

In any event, I would at this point like to present these to the governme~t. hoping that they will be of some benefit to them as well as providing further information to all of the members of the Lflgislature. MR. CHERNIACK: Would the honourable member permit a question? Would it be possible for him to give me a copy of his notes for my interest? MR. CRAIK: I would be most pleased to. MR. CHERNIACK: Thank you. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved into a Committee of Supply with the Member for Elmwood in the Chair. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

CHAIRMAN: Before we begin, I'd llke to direct the attention of the members to the gallery where we have visiting students from McCreary School, some 28 pupils from Grade 8 under the direction of Mr. J. Hilderbrand. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. On behalf of the Members of the Legislative Assembly, ,we welcome you here today. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAffiMAN: We are dealing with the Department of Cultural Affairs, Resolution 29. The Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. G.

JOHNSTON: Before the Minister replies to some of the questions and statements made, I would just like to refer once again to the annual report, the fifth annual report of the Manitoba Centennial Corporation, and I have two questions to ask. I noticed under

Schedule 3- there is no page number but it's towards the back of the report- the Manitoba Centennial Cor poration Hall, the Concert Hall shows an operating deficit of $177,672.00. Could he tell me or inform the House as to how the deficits are picked up from year to year, whether it's through the Reserve Fund or through an input of tax dollars or however; and also on

Schedule 3, under the Administration it shows a bad debt of $7,533. 00, The third item, if he could tell us how the general public has access to the concert hall, what are the rental rates and how many people have attended in the past year. MR. CHAmMAN: The Honourable Minister. RON. PHILIP PETURSSON (Minister of Cultural Affairs)(Wellington): If the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party requires answers to these, I do not have them immediately at hand but I will endeavour to have them here before long. MR. CHAmMAN: (Resolutions Nos. 29 to 33, and sections (

a) to (

c) of Resolution No. 34 were read and passed.) (d)(1)--passed; (2)-passed; (3)-- TheHonourableM:emberfor Rhineland.

1248 MR~ FROESE: Mr. Chairman, I had a number of questions in connection with the finan cial statement. If we're not going to get answers now, when will we get them? I was waiting for the reply to the .... MR. CHAIRMAN: Could I ask the member what he is referring to? Is he dealing with Resolution 34? MR. FROESE: I'm referring to the financial statement of the ..... MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, I'm referring to Resolution 34. Is that what the member's dealing with? MR. FROESE: The Honourable Minister said that he could not provide the information now.

If it's not provided now, where can we discuss it, because I was awaiting a reply to the member's question, and if we don't get a reply how can I discuss it intelligently and ask further questions on the same item? This is the problem. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, may I suggest to my honourable friend that if the Min ister didn't have the answers at that particular time and my honourable friend is anxious to debate them, that if the item has passed it could be done by way of Order for Return asking for the precise information, which of course, Mr.

Chairman, is a debatable motion and my honour able friend would have opportunity at that particular time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. WATT: On a point of order, I don't know whether it's a point of order or not, but I think at times that the Chair has been very flexible where items have been passed that members have asked questions on. I say if there is a point of order, I don't know whether it's a point of order or not, but I suggest that the honourable member's right to ask questions referring back to items that have been passed is not unprecedented in the House, in committee. MR.

PAULLEY: .... usurp that courtesy that has been exhibited in the past, but if you'd heard my opening remarks that if the Minister did not have them now while we're dealing with Cultural Affairs, that the same could be achieved through an Order for Return which is de batable. MR. PETURSSON: Mr. Chairman, I have some figures here but they are by no means complete. The honourable member asked for the rental rates for the Centennial Centre. I have a total figure shown here as $174,800 during the preceding year. These have been re ceived.

That's rental rates, but projected, these same rental rates for the coming year would be $160,000. That's a reduction of the total. He asked for the number of people who have at tended the Concert Hall during the year and I do not have that figure. There was another item having to do with a deficit amount. He quoted a figure of 177,000. That, while I don't have the figures here, that would have been reduced during the year, other wise they would not be projecting a lesser amount for the coming year than what there was last year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): Mr.

Chairman, correct me if I'm out of order, but I believe we were on Item (c), either (1) or (2) down there, or are we passed that resolution? MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 34- 6(d)(3). We're on the very last item under Public Records and Archives. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I'll make an attempt- you can call me out of order- I would like to make just a remark or two on Resolution 34 (c)(2). We were going fairly rapidly in the approval of this department but I-- I'm not being called out .... MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe it would be in order to make a general comment. MR. ENNS: I thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Chairman, I refer specifically to the Public and Regional Library Grants. I note that the Annual Grants is relatively unchanged other than reflecting higher costs from some 251,000 to $269,000, but I notice the item

(2) Establishment Grants, which the previous year was $10,200, there is no money listed here in the estimates for the coming year and it leads me to make a remark or two about the importance of the establishment of regional libraries throughout particularly rural Mairltoba; I think this is primarily where it's geared at. I would ask the Minister, does this lack of any specific figure here mean a withdrawal or change of policy on this matter? It may well be that it's simply a question of the department reacting to requests for the setting up of regional libraries. I know that the introduction not so many years ago, a few years ago of the regional library at Stonewall was of- I wouldn't say

April 24, 1970 (MR. ENNS cont'd. ) •.•.• of tremendous, but of considerable significance to the cultural life of the community of that part of the country which used to be of course my constituency, and I would like to do all I can in the Chamber to encourage the Minister and his department not to let this- it is admittedly not a large program - go unnoticed.

I would think that particularly with the elevation of this department to full departmental status with full Minister, that it would perhaps be a reasonable assumption that this would take place, but I wanted to take the opportu nity of the estimates to indicate to the Minister and to the government that the establishment of regional libraries is very much appreciated and very much thought of in rural parts of Manitoba.

I think it's becoming particularly more readily done in the sense that we have our growing centres where you have a greater concentration of people in these centres, and consequently the justification for it and the utilization of these libraries makes it a worthwhile thing. Also, it happens to be a kind of government program that lends itself to community in volvement. In other words, my understanding is that most of these regional libraries came to pass or came to being created initially by a group of interested citizens or interested groups.

In the Interlake, for instance, it was a project of the Area Development Board to seize this as an opportunity to do something constructive for the community and mobilize their forces. As the Minister will appreciate, the help that's received from the government is only a small por tion of the cost of setting up the library, the regional library; a fair amount of work has to be done locally.

The municipalities involved have to agree to an assessment, but the help that heretofore that's been given by the Provincial Government in giving an establishment grant has often made it possible to culminate a fair amount of activity into a successful venture by having just that extra amount of cash to in fact set up a regional library. I don't want to belabour the point, Mr. Chairman, but perhaps the Minister could indicate the absence of any sum at all on Item ( c)(2), Establishment Grants.

Is it his judgment that tl:\ere will be no libraries, regional libraries established in this current year or is it in fact a decided change in government policy that these kinds of grants, establishment grants, will not be avail able in the coming year. I will be happy to hear the Minister's comments on that. In fact if he does not have the information at this time, fine, I will certainly accept him taking this as notice. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: I guess there are further questions from the Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I have several questions in connection with the financial statements which involves grants and also I would like to get a projection from the Minister. We find the Balance Sheet as Exhibit "A" in this report of Assets and Liabilities totalling $10,111, 000, but .... . MR. PAULLEY: .... interrupt my honourable friend, on the point that we did say that we had to allow the Minister to answer the questions that he had, and if there were further questions they possibly should be done by an Order for Return. I express the danger o~ pro cedures, Mr.

Chairman, that might re-open the whole debate on the Department of Cultural Affairs. We're down now to Item (d)(3)- and I don't want to try and curtail my honourable friend from participating in the debate, but really I believe my honourable friend is referring to matters pertaining to the Centennial item of grants in the- would that be

Section 3? As I say, I don't want to be unfair or curtail my honourable friend, but if there is some wportunity for him to obtain the information he seeks without using the time of the committee, I think it would be to the advantage of the whole House. MR. FROESE: I appeal, because I feel this is the time where we can ask questions and get answers. I can't get the information just by a single Order for Return. I'm speaking here of a projection. What are going to be the total costs of the celebration?

Surely enough there must be some guidelines as to -MI. at the government intends to spend and liow they expect to get the moneys. We have under this financial statement ..... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The questions of the Member for Rhineland may be important, but I might remind the member that the purpose of passing resolutions in estimates is to dispose of them, and once they have been passed-- the member's questions really were in order under Resolution 29 and Resolution 31. We have gone past that point and we are now in an area of Library Services.

I don't understand why the member is raising these questions now and -MI.y be did not ask them earlier. MR. FROESE: Because we were going too fast. I didn't quite get the necessary papers out and we're still dealing with grants, Mr. Chairman. There's items of grants in the al.loca tions that are still to come and .....

l 1250 April 24, 1970 MR. CHAIRMAN: Well these are grants for Library Services and Archives. MR. FROESE: Well, Mr. Chairman, the only other recourse is that I deal with this on concurrence and I think it's much better to deal with it now, far better to deal with it now while we have the matter before us. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, if my honourable friend would like to deal with it in con currence, let that be done. He has that opportunity and then we are not deviating from generally accepted procedures on estimates.

I don't want to curtail my honourable friend, but I do sense from what the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition said yesterday evening that we'd like to get into the other departments as quickly as possible. MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the Member for Wolseley have a point of order? The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. LEONARD H. CLAYDON (Wolseley): Yes, Mr. Chairman. I feel the same as the Member for Rhineland, that you were a little too hasty in passing 31 and I had some questions I wanted to put to the Minister.

It seems to me that we just rattle through some of these resolu tion numbers and you get on to the next one and then there doesn't seem to be a way that we can get back to ask the questions. I have some questions I had asked him previously by personal note and I didn't get the answer to them. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, if I can speak for a moment then. As much as I would normally like to help my friend from Rhineland and my colleague from Wolseley, I do believe . that the suggestion made by the former House Leader is in fact the correct one.

Any undue haste that may be taken by the committee in passing resolutions, the responsibility lays on us. To deviate from that path would make your job much more difficult in the continuing of the paSlling of resolutions, and there are after .all other methods- as suggested, concurrence and other ways that this particular further information can be solicited. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. PETURSSON: I have, Mr.

Chairman, at least a partial answer to the questions that the Honourable Member for Rhineland would wish to ask, if it has to do with archives, library grants, but in the meantime I have information for the Honourable Member from Lakeside on Item (2)(

c) in No. 6, Establishment Grants for Libraries. MR. CHAIRMAN: ..... strictly speaking, the Member for Rhineland was out of order. I appreciate the problem that he has and I appreciate the comments of the Member for Wolseley, but I think it is the business of the House to attempt to make some progress. I think the problem is normally that progress is slow, and although the Chairman may appear to be in haste, it's simply I think the normal speed of the Chairman to attempt to get through the business of the House.

I think it's the responsibility of the members to be aware of numbers called and resolu tions dealt with. It is not my responsibility to .... for any lengthy period of time so I would say that on a strict

interpretation of the rules we have passed those resolutions and that we are now dealing with the question of library services. I think that the Member for Rhineland will have an opportunity on concurrence to in fact make his point, but otherwise, if I allow him to re-open these sections, then what is the point of passing resolutions. If one can simply go back at any time, there's no point in forward progress. MR. FROESE: Mr.

Chairman, if we would be following the rules strictly I wouldn't object, but on any number of occasions we've not followed the rules, and since we didn't get a projected statement on what the expenditures will be, the estimates don't give clarification on that point. They don't say anything in connection with the Centennial, the amount that we will be spending, the amount of revenue that we expect, because the financial statement says that we have a deficit of $7 million and how is this going to be covered? Where is the money going to come from? How much more are we going to spend? This is what I want to know.

You mention that the item is passed. Well, even this morning the Member for Ruperts land stood his Order for Return where he was supposed to speak on it. He stood it several times, far more than the rules allow for, and I think we should give more latitude on this one as well. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MH. PETURSSON: In reply to the Honourable Member from Lakeside, I can assure him that there has been no change in policy as far as Establishment Grants are concerned.

During the year there were several municipalities who voted on the question of the establishment of a library and in each instance the vote was defeated, so there were no Establishment Grants provided for for this year but the policy has not been changed.

April 24, 1970 (MR. PETURSSON cont'd.) . I made a point in my introductory remarks to indicate that the Provincial Libraeywas'Veiy interested and very active in establishing as many libraries as possible and that there were some 40,000 books purchased during the year and distributed, and I don't recall how many li brary cards for purposes of the provincial libraries, the libraries that are scattered throughoilt the province in various commUnities. There are municipal libraries and regional libraries, as I pointed out, and these are all being supported in one way or another and encouraged by govern ment.

But I could point out of course that the increase in the estimates is in the amount of about $18,000 to libraries, and during the year I feel quite sure if a municipality or a region should wish to have a library established, every effort would be made to give them· support. Normally there is a $2,000 basic grant and I cannot say whether provision has been made for it, even that amount or not. On the other, the Archives Library and the grants in that connection, I have names of libraries down through the province. I could read them.

They run down a full page begimi~ with Boissevain and Morden Regional Library right on down running alphabetically to the Winnipeg Public Library, and in between there are about 25 or 30 places to which grants have been made.

Now partially to help out the Honourable Member from Rhineland, I could point out to him that the grants made, or payments made to such items as the Museum, the Planetarium and the Centennial Centre complex, are as follows: $400, 000 to the Museum; $70,100 to the Plailetal ium; $180,700 to the Centennial Centre complex; and that makes up the figure of $650;800 that is shown here in the estimates.

Now, in addition to that, money was voted covering a two year period to the Centennial Corporation for its operational expenses during that time because - well, I'm not being crltieal of the' former government, but they had neglected to pay their grant that had been undertaken for the year 1969 and '70, so that was picked up along with an additional sum to make up a total of $1, 799,38 0 for the operation of the Centennial Corporation during the present year. It does not appear in.the estimates simply because it is in the hands of the Corporation.

And that is divided up in this way: payments to projects, centennial projects throughout the province, and if the honourable member would wish these I could begin now and continue until noon reading off the names. They number altogether 214 projects that have been and are being supported. by the Centennial Corporation through grants. The administration that has been allocated- $337,000. The other comes to $1,462,380, which has been paid out to these projects throughout the province. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I may be opening this thing up for further discussion but you have made your ruling and I simply have supplied some answers to the question that the honourable member raised.' If he wishes to raise others, then by Order for Return I'd be happy to try to ..• MR. FROESE: I'm not interested in the detailed accounts as to what went out to such and such a project, I'm interested in the over-all projection. How much are we going to spen,d on the matter of centennial this year? MR. CHAmMAN: .... on this area are not in order and that we have passed Resolution 31.

The member can ask his questions some other time, perhaps under Orders of the Day or can make his comments on concurrence, but I see no merit and I see no legality in the member asking these questions now so I'd ask him to desist. MR. FROESE: I never got an answer to the seven million •..•. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, an answer is not in order at this time. MR. FROESE: Well, sure it is. We are still under the department, Mr. Chairman. You're asking us to complete the department and to make the allocation complete. MR. CHAIRMAN: We're dealing with Resolution 34.- MR.

FROESE: I'm not allowing Resolution 34 to go by without some answer. Can't the Honourable Minister give us some projection as to the total amount that they expect to expend during the centennial year for centennial purposes? Surely there must be some budget as to the amount they intend to spend and to get in in the way of revenues and how much are we going to subsidize the whole project as a province. I notice that we have advanced the money at 5 1/4 percent. This is much below the going rate. What is the situation? MR. CHAmMAN: Resolution 34. The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. JACK HARDY (St.

Vital): It has to do with the Public and Regional Library Grant, and as mentioned bY the Honourable Member from Lakeside, that there is concern in this area.

1252 April 24, 1970 (MR. HARDY cont'd. ). There is concern in the area inasmuch as the annual grants to public libraries are- and I'm sure the Minister is well aware of this- the annual grants-- and I'm quite surprised that the increase has been very very minimal, because the Minister I'm sure is aware of the fact that in the operation of public libraries it's extremely difficult and they have not been able to keep pace with the rising costs.

The municipalities are pegged, the con tribution that can be afforded to a library is pegged, and if the assessment does not increase then it's going to be reflected in the type and the nature of the facility itself. And this is the situation that many libraries now in fact are finding themselves in. The grant to public libraries is absolutely inadequate from the provincial level. Now the Minister made a statement that it's supported by provincial government. It's supported by the local government, with a very very minor contribution from the provincial government.

My question to the Minister is why - why in fact has this attitude been adopted and this policy been adopted when in fact public libraries find themselves in the position where it's an extremely difficult proposition to enable them to carry on. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. PETURSSON: Mr. Chairman, I must admit that the grants being made to the li braries are not as large or as great as we would wish them to be, so to that degree I can agree with him. But I can point out that the St. Vital Public Library was supported to the extent of $7, 509 during the year which is not an insubstantial sum.

It would be taken for granted that the local authorities would support their own library, and the provincial library, the government is playing its

part in trying to keep these libraries going. I don't know whether you would wish any further information, Mr. Chairman, but this is a partial answer. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 34. The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. WATT: Mr. Chairman, just before you pass this item on the Minister's Estimates, I was looking through his estimates to find out where I might ask a question in regard to govern ment sponsored lotteries and I don't seem to find it here. I wonder if I could get some indica tion from the Minister how the game is going, and this might be partially an answer to the Member from Rhineland. MR.

PAULLEY: If my honourable friend had been here listening to the Minister of Cultural Affairs on the introduction of his estimates, he would recall that my colleague made quite a considerable lengthy reference to the centennial lottery, and I'm sure, Mr. Chairman, if my honourable friend would read Hansard he would get the reply to his question. May we now proceed. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 34 (d)(1)--passed, (2)-- The Honourable Member for st. Matthews. MR. WALLY JOHANNSJN (St. Matthews): If I may, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to address three questions to the Minister.

Now I may have missed his presentation of this material yes terday; however, if I did, I apologize now. But I would like information on three items. First of all, having to do with the Archives, I see that the salaries have been increased from $31, 000 to 37 thousand and something. Am I to understand from this that there has been no increase in Staff in the department? I'd like to know this because I understand that the archives certainly need another field man-- they need a field man which they don't have right now.

The province is losing very valuable collections of historical papers because of the lack of such a man on the archives staff. I'd like to know if the department is contemplating hiring such a man this year. If it isn't, is it the intention to hire such a man perhaps next year? Secondly, I would like to ask the Minister whether the Archives will receive additional storage space this year. The Archives right now has about 1500 square feet of storage space.

This is totally inadequate in comparison, for example, the other provincial archives in the west have something in the order of 30, 000 square feet of storage space. And I would like to know, I believe the Minister said something about this storage being provided possibly in the Auditorium. Is this the plan or is it contemplated for example that traditional space may be provided at the Museum of Man and Nature. The third point, the third question. I would like to know from the Minister if there's any possibility of the Hudson Bay Company depositing its archives in the province.

This is a ques tion that interests me very much as a teacher of history. Again, as I say, I may have missed these points formerly, but if I did I apologize, if I didn't, I would like to get this information. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. i MR. PETURSSON: Mr. Chairman, largely the answers to these questions were given in l

April 24, 1970 (MR. PETURSSON cont'd. ) ••••• my presentation last night. The staff has not up to thl$. point been increased in Archives simply because there's so much space taken up by ma~l.al that there is no ro.om for any additional bodies. But there have been some increases: general, salary increase to April 1st- $13,400; annual increments- $5, 000; and the staff turnover and reclassification and so on has come to $1,000.

Actually it has been found impossible, im practical under the present circumstances to add staff to the Archives present staff purely because of space, and this is one of the reasons why it was found essential, absolutely neces sary to find greater space. And that answers the second question about storage. The need for more extensive facilities for Archives was used as one of the arguments for buying the Auditorium, and it is hoped that- well I don't know how soon- but hopefully next year early, steps will be taken to provide that space and move Archives from its present loca tion.

It is tragic really to be aware of all the materials that are available to Archives and then having no space to provide for them when they are brought or presented to our Archives for safekeeping. Now as far as the Hudson's Bay Company archives are concerned, I have personally no information on that, and although I know that it has been rumoured, spoken of, at the present point if there are any negotiations going on then that would be in the hands of the Premier him self. I don't know whether they have been initiated, or if they have, how far they have gone.

But hopefully, I would say I would hope that eventually and before very long Winnipeg may JJe.:. come the repository of the very extensive Hudson's Bay archives which cover an enormous amount of the early history of Manitoba. The history of the Hudson's Bay Company and Mani tobago hand in hand from the very earliest times and it would be a tremendously exciting acquisition for Archives if we- I say we, that's Manitoba- were to get the Hudson's Bay Company archives over here. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 34. (d)(2)--passed, (3)--passed. Resolution 34--passed. That completes the Department of Cultural Affairs. MR.

PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, we will now deal with the Department of the Attorney General. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Attorney-General's Department. The Honourable Minister. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I will endeavour to keep my words precise and rela tively clean of pollution of any source, whether they be volunteered from any

section of the Chamber. Mr. Chairman, I rise to introduce the estimates of the Department of the Attorney General with some hesitation. This is a novel experience for me and I regret the fact that I didn't have an opportunity to review estimates in the last sitting. I would like, as is custom ary, to say a few words about my department staff.

As most of you are aware, it's a con siderable staff and if I do not mention several of the people, it will certainly not be because of their inability to perform excellent work and to have carried out the functions that had been formerly assigned to them and which they ·are continuing to do with some increase with very great effectiveness. I am very satisfied with the personnel in the department.

One of the things that I ought to point out is that the former Deputy Minister is now happily the Chairman of the Workmen's Compensation Board and I'm assured by the Minister of Labour, to whom he reports, that a considerable effort is being made by the new Chairman to review the administration of that section, and I'm sure with the competence of Mr. Johnson, that that Board will function very well. However, Mr.

Gordon.Pilkey is now my Deputy Attorney-General and also, as you know, he's Deputy Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs whose estimates hopefully we will deal with shortly after the Attorney-General's estimates. Mr. Pilkey is an excellent Deputy; I have nothing but praise to give for this man who is now performing the roles of two deputy ministers and doing it with dispatch and certainty and I'm certainly pleased with the perform ance of my deputy and his staff. Mr.

John Graham, who's been also with the department for an extensive period of time, I find to be a man of great ability and zeal and nothing that I've given the department, even though it has been novel- I've certainly thrown a lot of new ideas at them- has found them a lack for ~ideas in response. I'm really pleased with all of my staff. Crown attorneys - we have in my opinion a very high calibre in our attorney staff, both iii our civil and criminal side. I've had several· meet-· ings with them, particularly with the criminal side, and they've indicated to me that there is

I l 1254 April 24, 1970 (MR. MACKLING cont'd. ). a thinking within the department that they wish to continue as career civil servants. This wwld be in departure to the tradition where young men enter the Attorney- General' s Department, receive considerable experience in the many many cases that the Crown handles, and then after receiving considerable experience depart to private practice because there the rewards, financial rewards have always been substantially greater and this has been the tradition.

But a change in thinking is developing, that young men coming into the department now indicate that it is their intent, where possible, to continue with the department on a career basis.

As most honourable members know, in addition to the sections that deal with the civil and criminal side of the administration of the laws in this province, the department does deal with a wide variety of matters, not the least of which is the preparation of the legislative mate rial that is brought to this House, and I confess that our legislative draftsmen have been given a tremendous load of work to carry out, and I suppose this is only natural in any new govern ment, that a lot of the ministers have ideas that they put to the legislative draftsmen and they are called upon to prepare a great deal of work for individual ministers and for the government collectively.

There are a large number of bills which are presently in the hands of the draftsmen. Some of them, of course, have been referred to in the Speech from the Throne, some of the smaller ones; nevertheless they are in their hands and receiving considerable attention, and it is my expectation and hope that within the next two weeks there will be a substantial volume of the legislation which they have been working on and various line departments have been working on, that will be ready for introduction to the House. I don't intend, Mr. Chairman, to deal with every

section of the department and I make no slight on any

section of the department if I oon't refer to it. I would, however, like to indicate some of the matters, some of the small changes that have been introduced by way of administra tive change rather than any legislative enactment. Most members are aware of the fact that some changes were made through our department in respect to the provision and adequacy of bail in courts.

It has been long a practice before this change for Justices of the Peace, when called upon to come down at hours when they're not normally employed, to exact a fee for their pain and trouble and inconvenience in attending after their regular hours, and this fee was somewhat of an anomaly because there really was no tariff for it, there was no certainty as to how much the fee would be, and considerable embarrassment could on occasion result from the fact that the various attorneys that were called and the persons involved in the bail application would be hard-pressed to understand the nature of the fee, and this was one of the priority changes that I carried with me into office.

It is with pleasure, then, that I indicate to you that this has been changed and the various Justices of the Peace and lay magistrates that are called down to set bail fees now no longer exact this sort of a fee and there is a set sum paid to the two major areas, the provincial police court, magistrates, the Justices of the Peace involved in that court, in the City of Winnipeg police court, and there is no imposition on the individual or the attorney in a bail application.

In addition, as a result of the amendments that were made in the Criminal Code, it is now possible for the pollee on an extensive number of lesser charges to use their discretion and release the person without the setting of any bail on the persons undertaking that they will appear when the charge is formally laid before the court and the person is required to appear.

And so there has been some substantial moderation in the rigidity of the law in that respect as the result of federal enactment, and the change that I've indicated that we carried out has meant a greater measure of fairness in the establishment, or the arrangement for bail. In addition, Mr. Chairman,

whereas in the past witnesses appearing for the Crown did not receive fees for their appearances at preliminary hearings, this situation has been changed and fees are paid to Crown witnesses appearing at preliminary hearings. At this stage, I would like to indicate that I believe that in the next fiscal year one of the changes that the Attorney-General's Department, or one of the areas that the Attorney-General's Department wlll look, is at the whole question of the fees paid to not only witnesses attending in court, but also to jurors who are reciuired to attend trials where jurors are summoned.

I would like also to make mention of the fact that in respect to the preparation of the statutes, the Revised statutes, as has been indicated should be ready shortly; the last technical requirement was passed recently by the House; and I would like to reiterate my gratitude and the gratitude of the government to the persons who were involved in the tremendous volume of

April 24, 1970 (MR. MACK LING cont' d.). work associated with the preparation of the Revised Statr:rte&ot in particular, Mr. Evans, the Queen's Printer, Mr. Tallin, Mr. Balkaran, and certainly Mr. Rutherford, who has worked over the many years in respect to this tremendous project, and l . want to assure the House that Mr. Rutherford has been requested to carry on since he is the I - most able, energetic and very important person, in respect to further provisions for the revi- sion of the regulations, and that work is now being proceeded with.

And that again is a very voluminous task, but he is proceeding with it. I also would like to pay some respect to the unique and excellence of the work of Professor Skelly in the resultant computerization of the statutes which will mean so much in the ease with which our legislative changes can be made. I would also like to indicate, Mr.

Chairman, that one of the matters that has been receiv ing considerable attention by our department is the question of the provision of legal aid to indigent persons in the Province of Manitoba, and as a result of concern manifest in this area, a fact-finding committee has been set up by the government, composed of a number of persons, and I will quickly indicate the names of those persons and indicate briefly the scope of the work intended that they should do. These. persons are as follows: Mrs. Levins, Mr. Bass, and Mr. Dave Courchene, Mr. Val Werier, Mr. Morris Feuer, Mr. Lou Greenburg, the Reverend R. W.

Brockway, the Reverend Kim Warne, Chief Magistrate Harold Gyles, J. F. Reeh Taylor, Mr. Ron J. Meyers. Mr. Reeh Taylor has been appointed Chairman and they have already had an initial meeting. Most of these persons need no further introduction to you, but it's sufficient for me to indicate that they represent a fair cross-

section of disciplines. Certainly some of these people have been outspoken in their concern for the need for improvement in this area. With respect to their terms of reference, their first concern will be to evaluate the existing legal aid program as it's conducted under the auspices of the Manitoba Law Society to determine what changes, if any, might be considered by the Law Society in the provision of legal aid under that program.

As most members are aware, the previous administration some two years ago had made provision for an amount of $75,000 -- pardon me, in the previous fiscal year had made pro vision for-- I'm sorry, I was right the first time. The first year that any substantial sum was paid there was a provision for $75,000 in this fund, and in the subsequent year- that is the previous fiscal year to the one we're in now- there was a provision for $125,000 for legal aid purposes.

As a result of the concern by the Legal Aid Committee of the Law Society that they would be without funds for 1he limited program that they had undertaken to carry out. this government increased the appropriation by a further $35,000 to a total of $160,000 for the fiscal year which ended March 31st this year. You will note_that when we deal with 1he particular resolutions- I won't put my finger on at the moment - 1hat a provision has been made for a substantial increase in the amount of the legal aid funding.

However, in respect to that program, the fact-finding committee will look at that program with a veiw to making recommendations as to what changes might reasonably be considered to the priorities of assistance that have heretofore been maintained by the Legal Aid Committee of the Law Society. And enlarging for a moment, Mr. Chairman, and I don't speak as an expert on legal aid, but most members of this House are aware of the fact that over the course of many, many years the Law Society has provided, through a voluntary arrange ment, some. measure of legal aid both in civil and criminal matters.

In our time presently there is no financial contribution that is made to solicitors who carry out legal aid on civil matters. Recently, the Law Society Legal Aid Committee have met and made some decision to expand their concern in the civil field to those matters dealing with divorce. For many, many years the civil voluntary action of the Manitoba Law Society was confined to the other aspect of the matrimonial causes and domestic relations field, legal seParations and so on, and very seldom was there any assistance given in respect to divorce.

However, the present civil side of the Law Society Legal Aid has reportedly increased their contributions into the divorce field as well, but for many, many years the input in assistance for civil matters has been largely one dealing with the assistance to domestic relations cases, primarily separation and mainten ance problems. However, solicitors engaged in that assistance program did not receive any remuneration of any kind.

However, under the provision of legal aid in criminal matters, on the criminal side, as a result of the funding by the previous administration and the present funding, the Legal Aid Committee set up a limited criminal law tariff, and out of the ~s provided 1hey had paid a reduced fee to the solicitors who have been involved in that program,

' I I l 1256 April 24, 1970 (MR. MACKLING cont'

d) and there has been a substantial number of very qualified solicitors - barristers and solicitors - who have provided assistance in that program and it has worked very effectively, and when the particular estimate is there I would like the Uberty of the House perhaps to say something further in respect to the work that has been performed in the past. But nevertheless, this government is concerned to an evaluation of the existing priorities because it is significant to note that under the existing system there is no provision made for payment of barristers' or solicitors' fees regarding assistance in matters where they are termed

summary jurisdiction offences, the offences that arise primarily out of provincial statutes and do not fall under the Criminal Code where the more serious of criminal matters are generally determined. There are also quite a large number of cases where the magistrate, even though the offence is laid under the Criminal Code, has absolute jurisdiction, that the present legal aid system has not covered. It doesn't cover, for example, also any of the offences for which- well, in the field of theft, for example, where the theft is under $50. 00, this is the largest range of

summary conviction offence, and these are not covered. And I'm sure it's the view of most pe~le that in many instances the persons who are involved in

summary conviction offences are those who have been involved in a very serious matter, but it's their first, ofttimes their first experience in a criminal matter and before the court, and these pe~le certainly need assistance.

Now that's not to say that the persons who are involved with very serious offences, \\here they could be incarcerated for a period of years, lack priority in our view and the thinking of the committee, but certainly a reappraisal of the priorities of providing aid is long overdue, and this fact-finding committee will give its earliest attention to this field, to consider the priorities of assistance to persons requiring legal aid, and the whole question of who is an indigent will certainly arise, because there are many people who have relatively no income at all and it's not too difficult a matter to discern what today in law couldn't be con Sidered indigent or without sufficient funds to look after their own matters.

But there are many people '1\ho are struggling along on a borderline income and they may well be legally indigent in respect that the demand for legal fees would be just too much for persons who are working on a borderline income.

The whole question, the whole spectrum of the adequacy of legal aid will be considered by the committee, and in its long-range study in respect to the program to be recommended for the fiscal year 1971/72 the committee will look at a number of ideas and techniques that are in being, not only in other jurisdictions within Canada, but within other jurisdictions in North America and throughout the world, and I want to assure honourable mem bers that a number of very significant recommendations, ideas that have come to my mind by the suggestion by persons in the legal field and outside, have been mentioned to the committee and they will be studying various techniques involving the whole question of legal aid.

I don't want to talk too long on 1hat matter; however, I'm sure that honourable members may have specific questions when we get to the relevant resolutions or parts of the resolutions dealing with that matter. I also would like, Mr. Chairman, to indicate that, as indicated in the Speech from the Throne, my department has been conducting a number of meetings, and consideration is con tinuing of the form in which 1he Law Reform Commission will be organized.

As indicated, the government is committed to 1he establishment of a Law Reform Commission and it is possible for this Law Reform Commission to operate under the aegis of the Attorney-General's Depart ment where for many, many years law reform committees, volunteer committees of the Bar Association and the Law Society, have carried on and carried out very excellent work.

Many of the Bills, 1he Acts, that are presently part of the Revised Statutes of Manitoba 1970, are the work of volunteer committees of the legal profession that have covered a broad spectrum of legislative matters, but the Law Society, the Bar Association, all concerned have been unani mous in their view that it is long past time that some continuity, some direction and guidance should be provided by government through the establishment of a Law Reform Comiilission, and Law Reform Commissions are now at work and have carried out very excellent and worth while studies in various o1her jurisdictions in Canada, one of the most significant being the Law Reform Commission of the Province of Ontario.

There are other jurisdictions but suffice is it for me to say at this stage, Mr. Chairman, that the establishment of the Commission and consideration for the form that the Commission will take, is going on with complete collab oration and communication between members of the Bar Association of the Law Society and also with the Faculty of Law at the University of Manitoba who have, as part of their program, a

April 24, 1970 1251·. (MR. MACKLING cont'

d) Law Research Institute which hopefully will be able to C;ar1"Y out significant aspects of research in respect to law reform as well. And I want to assur~yw. Mr. Speaker, that the Law Research Institute and members of that staff has already provided)l good deal of excellent material to me in various subject matters, some of which will be intrQ duced shortly into this House as legislation, or matters for your consideration for enactment as legislation.

However, it may well be that one of the Bills that could be introduced to this House, and I'm inclined to this view at the moment, will be a Law Reform Commission Act, wJtich ytould be similar in nature to the federal Law Reform Commission Bill, and I will have further to say on that perhaps later on in consideration of the particulars of my estimates and perhaps later during the session. One of the items that members will be interested in, in discerning in the e.stimates, is that there is provision for an expansion of the civil legal staff of the Attorney-General's Depart ment.

Now I think all honourable members, and certainly it applies to the members in govern ment, have to be very watchful as to the proliferation of staff, that is the mere aggrandizement of work, paper work by a line department to become big, but I can assure honourabl~ members that the work of the civil side of the Attorney-General's Department needs additionaliliput, and provision has been made for that. My rationale for that is as follows.

Shortly after upon taking office, I became aware of the fact that an extensive amount of legal assistance to government departments was provided by counsel outside of the Attorney General's Department, and certainly that practice can be very rewarding but it can have a negative effect as well because these people may or may not be available, the particular persons who have long been employed by the Attorney-General's Department may or may not be availaJ>le for a continuousperiod of time, and an excellent case in point is the fact that for many many years Arthur Mauro was employed by the Attorney-General's Department and he was unquerr tionably one of the foremost experts in western Canada in respect to the whole spectrum of the transport rates structuring.

However, Mr. Mauro, when he left practice, left the situation that the government did not have the senior trained expertise readily available. Mind you, within that firm there was a young Irian who had spent considerable time with Mr ..

Msuro in this field and perhaps expertise could have been developed there, and I don't question that he might have developed into a very excellent senior counsel, but my viewpoint is that where possible we should ensure that government has a continuity in this field and certainly the people within the civil side of the Attorney-General's Department ought to be able to handle this type of case on behalf of the government, and I'm happy to say that such persons do exist in the civil side of the Attorney-General's Department; one of the staff is very able to carry this out, and he has been representing the province in respect to further matters that have come in this field.

But it' s this sort of thing that had indicated to me that it would be in the interests of good government to bring back into the Attorney-General's Department a considerable amount of out side counselllilg_.that, although excellent, does not provide the same continuity, and in fact when I totalled up the cost of approximately $120,000 in outside counselling fees, my staff indicate to me that with two additional civil staff we should be able to cover the expenses involved. So somewhere in the estimates you see a

section which indicates a recovery- I think it's under l(d)- recovery of $80,000 from other line departments who are utilizing legal services which ordinarily would have gone outside of the government but which now may be provided by the Attorney-:General's Department itself, and I think that this, therefore, will be saYing the government considerable money. In respect to the estimates further, there is provision made for an increase in Law Enforcement Officers. Police services generally have increased substantially.

Under the contract that the Province of Manitoba has with the Government of Canada, there is a provision for an escalation in costing. Generally speaking- and I'm generalizing- the costs are halved between the Federal Government and the Provincial Government, but there has been an escalator built in to bring it up to the full 50 percent - it was somewhat less than the 50 percent initially so that the increase just in the escalation is something like $400,000. I would like also to indicate that there has been some change in respect to the Magistrate and Family Courts.

Most of you are aware of the fact that Roy St. George Stubbs was appointed Senior Judge of the Winnipeg Juvenile and Family Court, and I wish to assure honourable mem bers that he is serving already with much distinction and has brought to my attention cases which certainly now are being dealt with in a very expeditious manner. As most of you are aware, Judge Sparling has passed retirement age but he is in good health and we are continuing

1258 April 24, 1970 (MR. MACKLING cont'd) ..... with his service because there has been from time to time a substantial backlog of cases in that court and this will certainly help to clear the backlog, and we'll have to consider some time in the future whether or not any additional Family Court Judge may be required. Hopefully, with the administrative techniques reviewed and attuned, perhaps this additional expense may not be necessary. And while talking about this

section of our judicial system, it was a surprise to me to note that for some reason or other when the division of the Department of the Attorney-General was made, which had the effect of removing the Correctional and Probation Services arm from the Attorney-General's portfolio and putting that in Health and Social Services, the whole of the Family Court and Juvenile Court system was transferred, including provisions for the Judge's secretary, the Court Clerk and all of the people that are directly involved with the provision of the .Family Court, and frankly, I was a bit astounded that this had happened but it had, and one of the provisions in the estimates is for the staff which is directly involved with the provision of court services in the Winnipeg Juvenile and Family Court being returned under the Department of the Attorney-General, and that is something which will materially assist in the efficiency and the operation of the Court.

In addition to that, a senior Crown attorney from the criminal side will be provided to the Winnipeg Juvenile and Family Court on a permanent basis. There has from time to time, over the course of years, been an attitude developed that perhaps a junior, someone less trained, could be considered for service in that court because certain courts lacked a certain importance, or didn't have the same prestige about them, or other factors were considered - and I don't pretend to be able to rationalize to anyone's benefit what the major considerations were, but I want to assure honourable members, Mr.

Chairman, that in my evaluation every court has major importance and there's no gradation in evaluation of the respective courts. I fully expect that we'll be able to utilize the services of all senior counsel in a flexible manner to ensure that every court receives the best services of Crown attorneys. MR. CHAIRMAN: . . . was raised yesterday about a 40-minute ruling on speeches, including Ministers. Bearing that in mind, I would simply point out to the Honourable Minister he has spoken for 35 minutes and has about five minutes to go. MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, I am under the impression that there is no time limit on speaking on estimates; as a matter of fact I had a little bit of a whispered conversation with one of my honourable members on the other side, and I confess that I'm speaking without a prepared text.

I indicated that if I thought that my limited remarks could be finished to give him adequate time before adjournment at 12:30, I would certainly do so, but I rather expect that members might be interested in a reasonable overview of the Department because I will · bring to their attention sections which I would appreciate their asking more or inquiring more about, and ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. G. JOHNSTON: I believe the practice is, by leave, a Minister can take all the time he needs. MR. CHAIRMAN: If th8t is the tradition-- the Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr.

Chairman, I think we should-- (Interjection) -- No, we don't. I don't think leave is required. Since we do not have a report of the department, I think it is wise for the Minister to cover more subjects in his opening statement. MR. CHAIRMAN: Then I gather there is no objection to the Minister continuing. MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I think I'd object strongly if someone had some objections, because my understanding is that tradition has it, and we had quite a dissertation last evening on this subject by the former House Leader, that some members have spoken beyond an hour and a half, and it's not my intent to abuse the privileges of the House but I cer tainly do want to give the honourable members some indication- and I'm being rather sketchy in my elaboration - for these . . . points. MR. CHAIRMAN: , ..

I would say that I believe the tradition has been to allow Ministers to go over that, but strictly speaking the rule is 40 minutes and that does in fact apply, but there is obviously agreement that the Minister should proceed. MR. MACKLING: Well, it's not my intent, Mr. Chairman, to engage in a learned or otherwise argumentation on this point. I merely have taken note of the arguments that have been raised earlier on this matter, and I'm sorry that the Honourable the Leader of the Opposi tion isn't here, that perhaps he might wish to contribute as well.

One other salient matter that I would like to refer to when mentioning the Winnipeg

April 24, 1970 (MR. MACKLING cont'd) . . . . . Juvenile and Family Court and magistrates generally, is I want to pay respect to the late Magistrate G. P .. R. Tallin who passed away some short.time ago.

As most honourable members knew, he was both Chairman of the Manitoba Labour Board and also was a Magistrate and Fa.mily Court Judge and handled a wide range of cases on behalf of the Crown from time to time; he was my former Dean of the Manitoba Law School, a very personal friend, and a very excellent citizen of the Province of Manitoba, and it is with some regret that it's called to mind, in my notes, his departure. There have been appointments of- as a matter of fact, the press recently speculated on a decision of the appointment of Mr. Bill Martin as a magistrate in the north.

His appointment comes as a result of the excellent recommendations from a wide number of people, and I am happy to advise that his appointment has been confirmed by Order-in-Council and we will be making further provision for the continuing of Crown counsel. Bill Martin has served for some time as Crown counsel in the north and has been an excellent servant. Mr. Chalrman, although I am not the Minister of the Liquor Control Commission, never theless I am responsible to the House in respect to reporting on behalf of matters raised. I think a formal report has been filed.

There may be questions arise from the formal rePort that members wish to ask me about. I would, however, like to give a quick review of some of the matters that are of significance in respect to the Liquor Control Commission, and I think at this time it would have been appropriate for me to say something further directed to the references of my honourable friend the Member for Lakeside, but he is not in his chair.

Perhaps later he might have the opportunity to ask me a question or some other member, and it will give me an opportunity to elaborate on the subject matter that he has raised both inside and outside this House. MR. BUD SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Honourable Minister would permit a question at this time which is perhaps rather out of order, but the Attorney General recognizes the nature of the commitment that I have and it's perfectly all right with me if he takes up the remaining time at this moment, but if he's going to do so, if I know that, then I ~ill meet the commitment I have to meet and reply to his remarks on the next day's business. Could the Attorney-General give me some indication as to whether he'd like .•. MR. MACKLING: Yes, I tried to nod to you Bud. Informally, Mr.

Chairman, I think that if the honourable members do not object strenuously, I could very readily inform the House of relevant interesting matter in respect to the department to give them a better appreciation for the particular subject matter of the estimates that they might otherwise not have any particular concern with. MR. SHERMAN: ... to the Attorney-General, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. MR.

MACKLING: Well, one of the areas, as I indicate, that I think that I would like to give some brief overview is that of the Liquor Control Commission, the report of which was filed pursuant to tradition and to statute some time ago. In respect to the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission, it enters on its new fiscal year on an improved basis.

A number of changes are in process which should result in more efficient operation, increased revenue, and better service to the general public, improved communications and liaison in management labour relations within the Commission and an updating of the managerial sturcture to meet the modern needs of business operation. For the fiscal year ending March 31, 1970, the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission sales increased by approximately $6,187,000 or 7. 8 percent, and the gross profits thereon increased by approximately $1,816,000.

These preliminary financial estimates, unaudited at this time, show a net profit of $27,457,000 exclusive of provincial revenue taxes collected on behalf of the provincial Revenue Department by the Commission. This net profit is an increase of$1,986,000 or 7. 8 percent over the previous fiscal year. Now, I'm not certain as to the expected increase in profit, in what the margin will be in the next fiscal year.

I know that the Commission has embarked on some increase in programming in respect to computer services and so on, and initially I think there is a greater input or will be greater administrative expense, but in future there'll be substantial savings, so that! don't know whether the same rate of revenue ean be antici pated next year.

It depends, of course, on volume of sales ana mputs into administrative costing, but they are going on an extensive computer program, and I'm probably abbreviating some notes here which will save some time, but there likely will be an increase in adml,nistra tive costs which will have a long-term benefit in increased revenues in later years. In respect to self-serve stores, and the Honourable Member from st. Vital had made

1260 April 24, 1970 (MR. MACKLING cont'd) ..... enquiry of me on this subject matter last year in respect to tlte St. Vital store. I wish to report that during the fiscal year, the current fiscal year, that four new self-serve liquor stores will be opened, two in Metropolitan Winnipeg and two in rural Manitoba. In addition, two conventional stores in Metropolitan Winnipeg will be converted to self-serve, and that one of those conventional stores will be the St. Vital store. This will mean that by the end of the current year Manitoba will have eight self-serve liquor stores, six more than th-e present day.

The reason for this is that the Commission has found that the pilot testing, as the Honourable Member from St. Vital has pointed out, has clearly indicated that there are greater efficiencies, the public is much more satisfied in being able to select on their own time and in their own way the commodities they wish to purchase, and the resultant decrease in staff, in stocking and so on means that the whole area lends itself to an increase in efficiency and in profit. So there'satwo-fold saving, saving to the public and saving to the Commission itself.

In respect to the decor of Liquor Commission stores, I'm informed that there will be a marked change take place in the decor of the Commission stores across the province this sum mer, a project that should afford employment to painter tradesmen and associated workers.

I am hopeful that one of the stores that might see a change in decor - and I did bring this to the attention of the Commission- was that, I remarked it when I was in Thompson, Manitoba, although a very beautiful store, a beautiful building, it was extremely stark in its- not in its design but in its finish, and I think that our stores could be a little bit more attractive than they are. And maybe- I think maybe --(Interjection)-- well I haven't checked that one. One of the unfortunate things that I've been so-- my time has been taken up so heavily in my office, Mr.

Chairman, that I haven't had an opportunity to visit these various premises and hopefully I'll get some opportunity in the time ahead. In respect to personnel, a study and review of personnel policies is being undertaken with the objective of updating personnel selection and improving management-employee relations, which will also include a program aimed at effecting maximum service to the general public in the Commission stores.

The first step in the new personnel policy has already been imple. mented in the form of an updated job performance appraisal program, which aims at improved communications between management personnel and employees under their jurisdiction, and which will assist in development of individual personnel as well as keeping employees appraised of their promotional opportunities.

This personnel study and review is also aimed at recom mendations to update the senior management structure to meet the needs of changing operational techniques and systems within the Commission, and which are generally compatible to modern business management. This new management structure wlll provide, for example, additional senior management supervisory personnel for closer liaison with Commission store operations across the province and toward bringing a continual improvement in service to the general public.

As indicated by the announcement of the two new self-serve stores this year in rural Manitoba, a basic policy of the Commission is to bring to Manitoba citizens outside of Metro politan Winnipeg the same quality of facilities and services that are enjoyed by the people of the Metro area. I've already, Mr. Chairman, indicated the computerization program being carried on by the Commission, and indicated that this will result in substantial savings.

One of the major things is because with a computerized system they will be able to reduce inventory, and when you have large inventory you have a lot of money tied up, you know, which otherwise could be earning income. With the computer system, the inventory can be replaced almost automatically. When a certain volume of sales occur, even one individual bottle- if I can use that very naked expression talking about liquor - when one bottle is sold, there will be an immediate reduction from the inventory by way of the computerization program.

And when this is complete, it will mean that they will be able to reduce the investment in inventory substantially and result in considerable savings in future. But the initial input may well mean some reduction- in the sale of hom~ brew perhaps - but some reduction in initial profit. In respect to licencing, and I wish again that the Honourable Member from Lakeside were here. For these remarks, however, hopefully he'll be able to read them in Hansard.

The Licencing Board will continue to exercise its :::-esponsibility to the general public of Manitoba in accordance with the philosophy and principles in which the Manitoba Liquor Control Act is based, and toward maintaining the very high standard now enjoyed in the licenced accommodation restaurant and associated industries in the province. It is expected that the high level of co operation extended to the Licencing Board by practically all llcencees within the province will

April 24, 1970 (MR. MACKLING cont'd) . . . . continue to be enjoyed during 1970. The accommodation and restaurant industry associated with the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission and the Manitoba Licencing Board are to be commended for their contribution toward the enviable position Manitoba enjoys in these fields, and which are so important not only to the recreational and entertainment enrichment enjoyed by Manitoba citizens, but which also play such a major role in the successes the province enjoys in this important area of tourism.

I'm sure that honourable members know and value the tremendous significance that the high standard of accommodation plays in ensuring the well- being, the continuing well- being of the tourist industry. This is an industry which has a great potential, and as the Honourable Member from River Heights would be happy to note, is valued by this government, as it has been valued by the previous administration, as one which certainly can grow and which has to be valued and dealt with in a very responsible manner in this province.

And for continuation of the excellence of accommodation and facilities, it is important that high standards be main, tained in the accommodation industry where licencing of alcoholic beverage is permitted. Mr. Chairman, I think those will complete my remarks in respect to the Liquor Control Commission. However, I regret very much-- (Interjection)-- yes, I'd like a question in that field. MR. BILTON: I wondered if the Commission is using the facilities at Fort Churchill and its imports from Scotland. MR.

MACKLING: That's a good question and I know that there is an area that is wortay of further study in that field, However, there has been some, regrettably some unfortunate experience in handling of alcoholic beverage through that port, and it results in really the . _ necessity for more, if I can use the word infrastructure - really more commercial handling facility in that port, because as the honourable member appreciates, this is a fragile cargo • and, well, it evaportates, but the losses sustained, by breakage primarily, were so substantial that shippers apparently reacted unfavourably to much further development in this area- losses from breakage and other means.

However, it is our concern where possible, to maxi• mize the use of that port, and I think that substantial savings could be achieved through develop ment of the shipping facilities there, and I know that endeavours have been made to maximize, particularly from a governmental point of view, the use of services for government deparbnents. We'll continue to look at that question; hopefully we will be able to persuade private industry that it would be still to their advantage to utilize those services, perhaps primarily when we can provide better handling, storage and so on, this type of service to the port.

As I've indicated, that pretty well concludes the remarks I had in connection with the Liquor Control Commission except that there's an area, a question that I would appreciate, and then I could answer the honourable member when he-- but maybe he'll ask me questions later. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. G. JOHNSTON: I would like to ask one or two questions of the Minister with respect to the operation of the Liquor Control Commission.

One question that had bothered me at the time that it happened, and I don't know whether I'm wrong in my outlook or the new Chairman of the Liquor Control Board was taking too much upon himself, but just after he was appointed to his position he gave interviews and press statements urging certain- well he would call them reforms, but I t'lidn't think they were reforms, myself. He was advocating the lowering of the drinking age. He was advocating longer hours of sale for liquor, and a general loosening of the regulations as they presently are.

So my question would be: is this within the terms of reference of the Chairman's work? Is he to advocate changes in the law publicly and he him self try to influence public opinion? So that would be one question that I would like to hear a brief discussion on. And the other one is only a technical one; but in the brands of beer, liquor and wine that are sold, is any local preference given for the distilleries that are in Manitoba, or how do companies have their brands and lines introduced into the Liquor Board for sale in the province ? MR.

MACKLING: Maybe I could start with the last one first, although not necessarily in that order of importance or priority. In respect to priority of listing, I think it would be fair to say that where local distillers - and we now have a couple - are prepared to invest funds in the province, that particuhlrly where they have products that are already available to be listed, some measure of priority I think would be given. I haven't consulted the Commission, but I would be surprised if that were not a factor that weighed heavily with a consideration. It's also

I I_ 1262 April 24, 1970 (MR. MACKLING cont'd) . . . . . one of the considerations in respect to listing of other commodities, other than liquor, wine and beer and so on.

In respect to listings generally, the Commission I understand follows a policy of listing those commodities that are demanded or requested from time to time, and those where , obviously the company is spending sufficient money within the province to, if it's absolutely a new commodity, to promote sufficiently its listing, that it will likely move from the Commis sion, because the Commission buys the commodity and, you know, stores it, invests in it, and if it doesn't move then the Commission loses somewhat in the whole operation, and there's a percentage of sales that is normally followed.

If a particular brand can sell sufficient percent age of the market, and it's a very nominal percentage but still some nominal percentage of the market, it will be maintained as a listing. In respect to the first question, I feel that at the time the appointment was made, the press - and I don't blame the press at all; I give them every encouragement to get as much information and opinion from everyone that they can - but he was a new appointment and his appointment was surrounded by a measure of disagreement on the part of some, and the media were concerned to get an evaluation of this man.

They tested him; they asked him a lot of questions; and I think that perhaps, perhaps, he was more than generous in his answering of questions which really after appointment ought not to be so freely answered, and I think he did indicate a measure of his own feeling, which certainly might have some small measure of influence on the thinking of some people as to possible policy, but I want to assure the honoul' able members that policy is made by government, and any policy changes will be brought into this Legislature because the Act governs the policy and the chairman or members of a commis sion cannot deviate from the policy guidelines.

And this is one of the difficult matters that the chairman and the Commission have in dealing with these borderline cases dealing with licenses. Maybe I could elaborate further- we're at the point of adjournment- but right on that point, I would like to continue somewhat because it does come into focus with the questions that have been raised in this House and I would like to have an opportunity to say something further on, but in general I think that answers the specifics of your question but I would like to go into generalities further. MR. PAULLEY: I wonder, Mr.

Chairman, if this might be a convenient time for the committee to rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee has directed me to report progress and begs leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR. RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Gimli, that the report of the Committee be received. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: It is now 12:30. I am leaving the Chair and will return at 2:30 this afternoon. * * * * * * * (Translation of the Icelandic spoken by Honourable Mr.

Petursson shown on Page 1223, April 23rd. ) Mr. Chairman, I was told that my friend, the Honourable Member from Rock Lake, had spoken a few words in Icelandic in the Legislature a few days ago, and now I wish to take the opportunity of following his example. In this Legislature, there are men who are of varying nationalities and also who speak different languages. The Premier, himself, speaks four different tongues and in his inauguration address, he spoke a few words in each of those languages, namely English, French, German and Ukrainian.

But inasmuch as three members of Icelandic background have seats in this Legislature, it is in keeping that that language should be heard also and particularly in the year that we are observ ing, the hundredth birthday of this Province where Icelanders have lived these past 95 years. It was ninety-five years ago that they settled on the shores of Lake Winnipeg and there they have lived and taken

part in the building of this land; their children have been born here- their children and their children's children- and they have all become good citizens of this nation and of this province.

April 24, 1970 (MR. PETURSSON cont'

d) And now, they take their

part in observing the Centennial birthday of the province which has been their home all these years in company with people of other national origins. But now my purpose has been achieved by speaking these few words, namely that of letting the Icelandic language be heard in this Chamber in recognition of the Icelandic element among us. And having said that, Mr. Chairman, I bring my address to a close and express my thanks for having had a good hearing.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-2-51
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 2nd hansardpdf 51.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	36acdd97d20eaa0bf032b3c2f4e785a0600dfd62

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