Manitoba Hansard — 24 June 1986 (Sitting 35A, 33rd Legislature, 1st Session)

33-1-35a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 26 June, 1986. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. D. SCOTT: Madam Speaker , I beg to present the First Report of the Committee on Statutory Regulations and Orders. MR. CLERK, W. Remnant: Your Standing Committee on Statutory Regulations and Orders presents the following as their First Report : Your committee met on Tuesday, June 24, 1986 at 8:00 p.m. in Room 254 of the Legislative Building to consider: Bill (No. 2) -

An Act to amend The Real Property Act (Air Rights) ; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les biens reels (droits aeriens). Your committee elected Mr. Scott as Chairman and agreed th at the quorum at all future meetings would consist of six (6) members . Your Committee has considered : Bill (No. 2) -

An Act to amend The Real Property Act (Air Rights); Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les biens reel (droits aeriens). And has agreed to report the same with certain amendments. All of which is respecfully submitted . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster . MR. D. SCOTT: Madam Speaker , I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Elmwood, that the report of the committee be rece ived. MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I beg leave to file the Annual Report of the Criminal Injuries Compen satio n Board for 1985-86 .

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs . HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Madam Speaker , I beg leave to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for the 1986-87 Estimates, Department of Municipal Affairs. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, I have a statement . Madam Speaker, the statement is quite lengthy and I have provided the Opposition critic with a copy a few minutes earlier. Today the Federal Transport Minister tabled an extensive package of legislation respecting the reform of transport regulation .

The changes proposed in the trucking, rail, air and marine modes are many, varied and complex; in the next few days, we will be closely reviewing the new legislation to determine the extent to which the Federal Government has add ressed Manitoba 's concerns . Over the past year, our government has expressed grave concerns with respect to the "Freedom to Move" proposals . We have appeared before the Standing Committee on Transport to present an extensive submission.

We have pressed the Federal Minister to make changes to the proposals to better protect those regions and shippers of our unique nation who do not have the benefit of competitive forces. We have urged recognition of the role of transportation in regional economic development , and we have emphasized that it is vital to Manitoba to maintain and expand its historic role as a centre for transportation and distribution . In the case of extra-provincial trucking, the Provincial Transport Boards actually administer the regulations pursuant to delegated federal authority.

Madam Speaker, we acknowledge the need for fundamental reform measur es in extra-provincial trucking. However, we have consistently argued that reform must proceed cautiously and responsibly, with adequate study of potential adverse effects and adequate measures to protect against or ameliorate adverse consequences . In furtherance of these basic premises, I signed the Memorandum of Understanding of February 27, 1985, together with all provincial Transport Ministers and the Federal Minister , undertaking to implement extensive reforms and to give further study to others.

At the meeting of the Council of Ministers responsible for Transportation and Highway Safety held in Vancouver on October 3, 1985 , I expre ssed concern regarding the potential for domination of Canadian trucking by Ame rican giants, and the potential for undue exploitation of those emp loy ed in trucking, in a completely deregulated environment . I requested further studies in these areas , and mad e specific reference to the need for enforceable hours of work legislation and appropriate safety measures . I also sought a reconsideration of the timetable for implementation of the reforms agreed to date.

As well, I urged that the regulation of trucking be considered a trade issue, Madam Speaker , and form the subject of a bilateral trade agreement with the United States . 1300

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 Our government has urged that the new regulatory regime, which does provide for change to present regulations as agreed to by governments and the industry, be gi ven a chance to work for a five-year period, during which a legislative review would be conducted. The legislation could provide that, at the conclusion of this period, the Federal Cabinet, in consultation with Provincial Ministers, industry and labour, and in light of the review, could make further regulatory changes.

However, Madam Speaker , the Motor Vehi cle Transport Act amendments tabled today by the Honourable Don Mazankowski automatically sunset the economic regulation of extra-provincial trucking three years from January 1, 19 88. There is no legislative review mechanism. The legislation com pletely prejudices the issues and anticipates the unk nown conditions which may prevail in 19 91. The legis lation completely ignor es a number of potential adverse consequences of deregulation. lt also ign ores the fact that studies of the issues are presently being conducted, and anticipates the results of these studies.

If the Federal Government proceeds on its present course, we may see the cost of service to small and remote communities in Canada increase and its quality deteriorate; we may see trucking industry wages drop dramatically, and working conditions worsen; we may see our trucking industry completely dominated by Americans, and a major movement of trucking infrastructure and expenditure by trucking companies from the province; and we will not be in a position to do anything about it.

We have urged the Federal Government to immediately begin negotiations with the United States to achieve, Madam Speaker, a bilateral agreement that would recog niz e Canada's unique reliance on transportation. Such an agreement would allow us to take reasonable measures in our national interest without fear of retaliation, to ensure adequate service to small and remote communities, an appropriate level of Canadian control of the nation's hig hway transport capacity, and an appropriate balance of trade in trucking services. This issue is of particular importance to Manitoba.

We have nine of the 15 major national carriers based in Winnipeg, and 9,000 Manitobans employed in the trucking industry. Our position as a major exporter of trucking services and a tr ansportati on centre is threatened by this legislation, Madam Speaker. Within the past week, I have met with the Manitoba Trucking Indus try, with labour, and with the shipping representatives, through the Canadian Ind ustrial Transportation League, and I am pleased to say that the position of our government is recognized as responsible and appropriate by all concerned, and has general support throughout the province.

In conclusion, the Government of Manitoba considers it in the interests of all Manitobans to continue our opposition to this form of deregulation. The legislation represents a complete abandonment of the established practice that reforms in transportation should be determined by the provin ces and the Federal Government on a consensual basis. lt also represents a departure from the federal-provincial agreement signed on February 27, 1985, whereby the question of complete elimination of economic entry control was to 1301 be given further study before any decision on the issue was made.

According ly, we- will continue to press our position and work to change this proposed legislation before it becomes law. We are calling on the Opposition in this House and all Manitobans to join with us in standing up for the interests of Manitoba. We must promote a responsible course of regulation in the trucking industry, one that recog ni zes Mani toba's unique role in transportation and its contribution to our economic well being. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Madam Speaker, I thank the Minister for his statem ent.

We all share the concern in maintaining a strong trucking industry in our province. We know what it has contributed over the years. Winnipeg, is a major distribution centre in the trucking industry, and it has been important to us all. The truckers, I am sure, are naturally concerned about the condition of our deteriorating road network and, with the Minister's concern, I'm sure he could have maybe shown some consideration to the trucking industry by way of tax on motive fuel or various other fees that they are required to pay, to assist the trucking industry in that way.

Madam Speaker, we have not seen the White Paper that was tabled in Ottawa today, and when we have a chance to peruse that a little more thoroughly, we'll have a better chance to assess the Minister's statement and ascertain if the alarms that he expresses in his statement are indeed justified and, if they are, we will naturally be lending support, to provide whatever support we can to maintain a strong trucking industry in Manitoba. At the present time, it remains to be seen whether all of these fears will be justified or not. MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. R.

PENNER introduced, by leave, Bill No. 34, The Constitutional Questions Act;

Loi sur les questions constitutionne lles; and Bill No. 35, The International Comme rcial Arbi tration Act;

Loi sur l'arbitr age commercial international. ORAL QUESTIONS Manitoba Hydro -Dominion Bridge contract re Limestone MADAM SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I direct my first question to the Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines, responsible to this House for the affairs of Manitoba Hydro. Madam Speaker, allow me to express at the outset our support and appreciation for the fact that the recent

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 $19 .6 million award to Dominion Bridge will ensure jobs and business opportunities for Manitoba suppliers, but could I ask the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro, what precisely are the tendering gui delines now applicable at Manitoba Hydro? For instance, was there, in this particular tender call, a Manitoba job content included in the original tendering document? MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

As I understand it, I could be corrected, I'll check up on it, but my und ers tanding of it is that each organization submitting tenders was asked to indicate, in its supporting documents, what portion of the work they expected to do in Manitoba and what kind of employment it might generate in Manitoba. MR. H. ENNS: A supplementary question, Madam Speaker, to the same Minister.

How will the Minister be able to determine whether or not future tenders for this kind of work are indeed reasonable, fair and acceptable, if firms like Canron Incorporated, Western Bridge Division, no longer tender projects of this nature of Manitoba, as they've indicated the other day? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Well, Madam Speaker, there's a number of firms who are prepared to tender and I'm sure there will be discussions with Canron to convince them that we are not like their home province of British Columbia, where our people are entirely shut out when their province puts bids out, and that we are open to bids.

I'm told by the Hydro people that the recommendation accepted by the board is the one made by the senior management of Manitoba Hydro. There was not any interference from the outside on that. lt was the bid which ended up being the lowest. I want to tell the member and other members of the House that after tenders closed, Manitoba Hydro did receive enhanced benefit proposals from a majority of the firms who had submitted their original tender bids, and given the timing and the importance of these enhanced proposals, Manitoba Hydro did consider them in the final evaluation. That is the way it happened.

I asked staff at Hydro to tell me whether this was something that was unprecedented. They came back and they said, no, that it had happened on generating station construction some three or four times in the past. MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker, can the Minister tell me, what was Dominion Bridge's original tender? HON. V. SCHROEDER: I'd have to take that question as notice. I don't know the exact numbers of any changes. MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker, a final supplementary question.

If the Minister is taking that as notice, the purport of my question is, would it be a correct statement to make that the participation by Canron Inc., Western Bridge Division, in this tendering process indeed saved Manitoba taxpayers several millions of dollars? I just want the Minister to confirm that is a correct statement to make. The fact that we encouraged other Canadian firms, indeed other world firms, to participate in the open tendering system that, in this instance, their participation in the tendering process saved Manitoba taxpayers several millions of dollars? HON. V.

SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker, this reminds me of when we were in this House just a little more than a year ago and people opposite were saying that because we had arrived at a contract with CG E - which we were required to negotiate and couldn't tender because of an agreement with the Federal Government respecting a previous loan - that that would cause retaliation and so on, and this was going to be the end of the process and, since then, we have dropped the price of Limestone fairly substantially from where we were at the startup.

As that has gone on, we have increased the Manitoba content to the extent that, overall, we're somewhere in the range 80 percent. We have today more than three times as many Native Northerners working at that site. We are very consciously using this project to ensure we can do everything possible to enhance the Manitoba economy and, at the same time, we are coming in far lower than we expected. Any sugges tion that one particular company has somehow saved us $2 million and will not do so in the future is nonsense. HON. H.

ENNS: Madam Speaker, I'm not suggesting that, it's the spokesperson for that particular company that indicated that he and his company are no longer willing to participate in tender calls of this nature in the Province of Manitoba. I ask the Minister, would he take as notice, the one question he accepted as notice, what was the original Dominion Bridge tender call, and then to be able to determine what precisely the participation of Canron Inc. involvement in this tendering call saved Manitoba taxpayers? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker, I certainly will take that question as notice.

I would be very surprised, very surprised, indeed, if there would be any information coming back to me from Hydro, or from anyone else, that would in any way substantiate the notion that we saved money someho w because of Canron's involvement, and Dominion Bridge, as the member rightly noted in the beginning, is a very substantial significant corporate citizen in the Province of Manitoba, with Selkirk Rolling Mills, with the operation on the Dublin plant.

As I've said before, while we have been open here and we've had bids all over the world, and we've accepte d them, as an example wit h the general contractor, a company from the U.S. and a company from Japan, and so on, we have been open to awards outside the province. I just point out to members, in contrast, what the ministry of transportation in British Columbia does to our company and our workers here in Manitoba. From their specs, all the materials and supplies used in and about the construction of the works shall be manufactured in the Province of British Columbia.

That's how Dominion Bridge is treated in British Columbia. 1302

Thursday, 26 June, 19~6 Universities - lack of gov't funding to programs MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you , Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Education. The University Grants Commission indicated that 5.7 percent minimum amount was required to maintain existing levels of programs at our universities , however this government has granted only 3.2 percent for programs.

My question, Madam Speaker, is how can quality education be maintained at our universities when the Faculty of Arts at the University of Manitoba has had to cancel 86 courses in their course offering for the 1986-87 academic year. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education . HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Madam Speaker . In light of the award I received yesterday, I will attempt to keep my answer brief. Madam Speaker , the universities in the Province of Manitoba received funding increases approximately 3.8 percent.

Those funding decisions are made on the basis of information that's received from the Universities Grants Commission, information that the government has in terms of its potential revenue growth over the coming fiscal yea r, in terms of the many other legitimate needs that exist in the Provinc e of Manitoba. I've indicated on many occasions that our support over the last four years to post -secondary equcation institutions needs no defending . Our record is solid, it has been beyond inflation and the universities , as they know , will have to deal with their course programming , as they see fit .

University of Manitoba - women's studies courses MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A new question, Madam Speaker, to the Minister acting for the Minister responsible for the Status of Women . In 1985-86, 900 students were enrolled in women's studies at the University of Manitoba. In the upcoming academic year, 1986-87, this department will virtually disappear . Their budget has been cut in half, there will not be course offerings that are multi-disciplinary in women's literature, history. The question is will the Minister meet with the University of Manitoba in order to facilitat e the re-establishment of this department? HON .

J. STORIE: Yes, Madam Speaker, I am trying to ascertain at this time , the extent to which the university - in setting their own priorities - has chosen the women's studies courses as a target for reduction . The other statistics that the Member for River Heights has quoted - I'm not sure that they are entirely accurate either - but I am certainly concerned about the reductions in the women 's studies area .

While the priorities have to be established by the university community and the board of governors and the administration, I have already indicated , on other occasion , that is of concern and I would be prepa red to meet with the university president and adm inistratio n to discuss the necessity for those kinds of reductions. MRS. M. CARSTAIRS: A final supplementary .

Will the Minister urge his colleagues in Cabinet to fulfil their obligation, to ensure that co-chairs of women's studies exist at both the University of Winnip eg and th e University of Manitoba, as part of the shared provincial federal program which resulted in a half million endowment in the prairie provinces to women's studies? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Madam Speaker, I can assure the member that we are pursuing that matter, however I feel some of the decisions that have been made, if they had been reported accurately, tend to fly in the face of that commitm ent.

Flyer Industries - den Oudsten's takeover MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris . MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I direct my question to the First Minister .

This morning , in committee, under questioning , the Minister of Finance indicated that should den Oudsten of Holland, and the union officials representing the labourers at Flyer Bus, not be ab le to come to some agreement on changes in the present collective agreement, thus scuttling the proposed contract between MDC and den Oudsten, and given that no other buyers could be found for Flyer, that this govern ment will allow Flyer to wind up its affairs, rather than underwriting more losses? Can the Minister indicate whet her the Minister of Financ e's words on this matter are government policy?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , every effort is being made by the Minister responsible for Flyer Industries, as well as by the Minister of Labour , in order to facilitate an agreement between den Oudsten and the union with an appointment of a medi ator, Mr. Fox Decent.

I think at this stage, we are best to leave this matter to the mediator , to the efforts that have been undertaken , because it is impor tant, Madam Speaker, that there be success, as a result of the negotiations that are taking place, which are delicate, which are important to the Province of Manitoba. I think we would be better, Madam Speaker, to leave the discussions, the efforts to those that are presently engaged , in order to better assure the success in those discussions that are taking place. It would be in the public interest to do so. MR. C.

MANNESS: Madam Speaker, I know the First Minister doesn 't have to give me an answer. This morning the Minister of Finance did not hedge. Again I ask the First Minister for a straightforward , definitive answer to my question . MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Finance. 1303 HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you , Madam Speaker. That question was responded to in committee this morning.

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 The Government of Manitoba has been working for some time to provide a satisfactory resolution to the long-sta nding problems with respect to Flyer Industries and to divest Flyer into the private company of den Oudsten, so that there can be a viable long-term future. At the present time , ther e are some sensitiv e discussions ongoing. There was a full review of this matter in committee this morning, Madam Speaker, as there was earlier this week.

I think we ought to allow that process to conti nue so that we can have a successful conclusion to the di vestiture of Flyer Industries for the good of the Province of Manitoba and the people of the Province of Manitoba. MR. C. MANNESS: I have a question to the Minister of Finance. Will the same very generous package, as detailed in committee over the last two sittings, or some variation of it, be offered to other companies; for example, Motor Coach Industries, should den Oudsten and MDC not be able to negotiate or finalize the contract as it's presently written? MADAM SPEAKER: That is a hypothetical question.

The Honourable Opposition House Leader. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. lt has often been the practice and the tradition in this House for members to ask members of the treasury bench questions which would relate to the contingency plans that the Minister of the government may have, in the event that some sort of an event occu rs. lt has happened, Madam Speaker, in terms of hospital strikes and various strikes of that kind, and is a very valid question. MADAM SPEAKER: Would the Honourable Member for Morris like to rephrase his question? The Honourable Opposition House Leader. MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, if you're asking the Member for Morris to rephrase his question, would you please make a ruling with respect to this matter? MADAM SPEAKER: The question as it was - (Interjection) - Order please, order please. Would the Honourable Opposition House Leader please withdraw his final comment which reflected on the Speaker? MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, I suggested that there should be a ruling with respect to this matter, in the light of my argument, that does not muzzle members of the opposition in asking questions.

MADAM SPEAKER: May I remind the Honourable Opposition House Leader that I heard his statement. lt is the Chair's role to interpr et the rules to facilitate the proceeding of the House. To suggest that those are being done in a way which muzzles any member, I suggest is a reflection on a decision of the Chair. I did say to the Member for Morris that his question, as it was phrased, was hypothetical. I had made a decision on that. I did ask the Member for Morris to rephrase his ques tion.

No w I am asking the Ho nourable Opposition House Leader to withdraw imputations that the Chair is not proceeding in a fair fashion. The Honourable Opposition House Leader. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would withdraw the term "muzzle," and substitute "unduly restrict." MADAM SPEAKER: I'm afraid that is not satisfactory. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Would the Hono urable Opposition House Leader please withdraw any imputation that the Chair is interpreting the rules in any way other than a fair manner? MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, I withdraw that term for the time being. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speaker, I believe the rules in this area are more explicit and more clear than they are in any other area with which this House deals.

In order for this House to function effectively it cannot have members of the House reflecting upon rulings by the Speaker or making suggestions that the Speaker is not at all times treating us with the utmost impartiality and fairness, and for that reason, I would suggest, Madam Speaker, that the withdrawal, as proposed, which indic ates the member still holds out on his own the initiative to reflect upon your impartiality in the future is not suffi cient.

MADAM SPEAKER: May I call on the Honourable Opposite House Leader to withdraw, wit hout any qualifying remarks, any imputation that the Chair is acting in any other way but a fair and impartial way. The Honourable Opposition House Leader. M. G. MERCIER: Yes, Madam Speaker, I so withdraw. MADAM SPEAKER: Thank you very much. The Ho nourable Member for Morris with a supplementary. MR. C. MANNESS: Madam Speaker, Motor Coach Industry, some period ago, showed some interest in Flyer Bus.

I ask the Minister of Finance whether they would be given an opportunity, similar to what was given to den Oudsten, given that July 15 th an agreement cannot be struck? HON. E. KOSTVRA: Madam Speaker, as was indicated some time ago and responded to in Committee over the two days of hearings that we had with respect to the Annual Report of Flyer Industries, there was discussion over a long period of time with a number of candida tes looking at the divestiture of Flyer Industries.

We have spent a lot of time and a lot of effort attempting to ensure a long-term future for Flyer Industries in the Province of Manitoba, at the same time, insuring that there was protection of jobs and an end to the drain on the taxpayers in the Province of 1304

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 Manitoba . In that regard, there wer e discussions with a number of specific comp anie s including the one that the member mentioned . At the present time there is only one offer, one share purchase agreement being entered into, and its our expectation that agreement will be finalized in a way that will be satisfactory to the government, to the purchaser , and to the collective bargaining agent. MR. C. MANNESS: Supplementary, Madam Speaker, and I direct it again to the First Minister.

Will the government seek to convince the union leadership that for the sake of the longevity of some 200-plus jobs, that some moderation should be taken with respe ct to some of the issues under negotiation with den Oudsten? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Again, we're going over the same ground that we have in Committee and I'll repeat what I stated in Committee.

The Government of Manitoba, and representatives of the Manitoba Development Corporation, on behalf of Flyer Industries, have been working for some tim e with the new purchasers and the collective bargainin g agent to come to a satisfactory understanding with respect to issues related to the takeover; that has been going on for some considerable time. We have always ensured that there has been communication between the parties and with this present difficulty we have asked for - and the Minister of Labour has concurred in - the appointment of a mediator, an outside party, to help facilitate those discussions.

We will do all we can to encourage both parties to come together and bring about a satisfactory, successful, mutually agreeable understanding and agreement . Urea-formaldehyde insulation - extension of deadline re removal MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ellice . MR. H. SMITH: I have a question for the Minister of Housing . September 30 is the deadline for grants for homeowners who must remove urea-formaldehyde foam insulation. With the boom in housing construction and home renovation, most Manitobans are having difficulty finding contractors to remove the foam before the deadl ine.

Could the Minister press the Federal Government to extend the deadline so that citizen s will get the health-threatening foam out of their homes? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Yes, we're quite concerned about the September 30th deadline. The problem is that there are only 30 licensed contractors in the province that are able to do this very unique kind of work.

There are people that have registered in 1983 to have the work done which would allow them to receive the grant who have not , through any fault of their own, been able to have this work completed during the deadline that is established. 1305 What we will be asking the Federal Government is that they extend this program so that all of those people that were registered at the appropriate time will be able to get the work done whenever the licensed contractors are free and available to do the work. It 's a good program; we want all th e urea forma ldehyde removed from the homes .

This is an incentive and we would like all the people who have asked to have this accomplished to be able to have it done. Versatile Farm Equipment Company MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Premier, Madam Speaker. Could he inform the House or confirm that the Board of Directors of John Deere are meeting today to consider their position with respect to the acquisition of Versatile, in light of the Department of Justice ruling in the United States to defer the approval of the acquisition for 90 days? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, certainly John Deere is discussing the purchase of Versatile. Whether there is a Board meeting or not today, I can't co nfirm that, nor can the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology confirm that. We can further check that out. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, I would urge the Premie r and the Ministe r to maintain close communications with John Deere and Versatile with respect to this matter, and I would ask the Premier if he, or his Minister, have developed any contingency plans to deal with this situation in the event that the acquisition by John Deere is not followed through?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Indust ry, Trade and Technology. HON. V. SCHROEDER: My department is keeping in constant contact with Versatile to ensure that if anything further can be done by us - and the Premier mentioned yesterday , the contact with the Federal Government , the contact with Deere - if there 's anything furthe r that can be done by us to help we are standing ready to help.

Versatile has informed us that they have been very appreciative of the support given by the Province of Manitoba and have told us that they don't believe there is anything that we could have done beyond what we had been doing up until now. If there is anything further to be done, we stand ready to do it. MR. G.

MERCIER: A final supplementary question, Madam Speaker, could the Minister then indicat e whether his department has developed or is developing some contingency plans to assist a futur e purchase r of Versatile in maintaining the plant here , in the event that John Deere does not follow through with the acquisition? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Yes, we are discussing with Versatile the contingencies and, as the member is

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 probably aware, there 's only one othe r 4-wheel tractor manufa ctu rer. There 's not a great number of people presently in the industry to contact so that is not taking a great deal of time . Whe ther Case is interested or not should be kno wn fairly quickly. Beyond that, we are still looking at the overall case and , specifically what it is, that the Depar tment of Justice of the United States is asking for. Are they asking for this company as an example? We're not sure.

Are they asking this company to go out and have people look at the operation who are not currently in that industry, or possibly in the industry, but not in the 4-wheel tractor industry . As I say, we're doing whatever we can with Versatile. We're working clo sely with them and if there's anything that they will ask us to do, we will do it beyond wha t we are already doing, in terms of communicating with John Deere. Sports faci lities - funding to MADAM SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. J. ERNST: Thank you, Madam Speaker , through you to the Minister respon sible for Spor t.

Can the Minister inform the House whether the money offered to the City of Winnipeg for amateu r sport facilities of a few weeks ago - baseball stadium and socce r pitch, along with som e others - if that money has been withdrawn? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Sport. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, I'd like to than k my honourable frien d for the question. I'd like to first start with a cor rectio n. At no time was money offered to the City of Winnipeg. The money that was offered was to construct sports facilities .

The situation was that we had a request , sometime in January, to work with the city for the construction of a baseb all stadium with the assurance that if it was done at a certain date, they had a guarantee that Triple A Baseball would be brou ght to Winnipeg. This we deli vered within two weeks. One of the conditions - the Mayor apparently is talking about the cond itions - one of the conditions was that we said the first priority would be facilit ies for amate ur sports. If it could help to bring professional sport here, so much the better. There were negotiations between the two levels of government.

Some of the conditions were agreed on and that was finalized. Since then, we have said on numerous occasions that we would be ready to continue because a committee had been set up fo r presenting the province, the City an d the Manito ba Sports Federation, to look at ... were agreed on and that was finali zed.

Since then, we have said on numerous occasions that we would be ready to continue because a committ ee had been set up for presenting t he province, the city and the Manit oba Sports Federa tion, to look at the facilities that were needed and to have a construction program, and we haven't heard from the city at all since then. MR. J. ERNST: Can the Minister confirm then that the fun ds wou ld be availab le to the City of Winnipeg for amateur sport facilities , and could he further confirm to what extent would any restrictions be placed on that money? HON. L.

DESJARDINS : Mada m Speaker, first of all, the restri ct ions we're talking about. There were some condit ions that it would not be somet hing for Triple A baseb all alone. That was a condition; that was agreed by the two partners. It was also a co ndit ion right from Day One that the three levels of government sh ould be invited to

part icipat e. I was told that had been done and then I was informed by the Feder al Government that this had not been discusse d with the city. The principle still stands. We were intereste d in facilities for amateur sports. Now I would have to go back to Cabinet for the amount beca use one of t he main reasons, apparently , was that Triple A baseball, apparently , is not comin g to Winnipeg. The pri nciple still stand s, we would be inte rested, as well as facilities all across Manitoba . MR. J. ERNST: A final supp lemen tary question to the Minist er.

As there app ears to be some confusion with respect to whether the money 's available or not and what it's available for, could the Minist er advise , enter negotiations again, confirm to the City of Winnipeg if the money is available and upon what conditions, so that there's no mistake made in that regard? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, I've recei ved a letter from the pre side nt of the Sports Federation who apparently has written to the city requesting a meeting to discuss that, and I've acc epted immediately.

As I say, the princip le is still ther e, we're read y to discuss and certainly do our share to build these much needed facilities in Winnipeg and I don't know of any conditions. A MEMBER: We'll have to name it Desjardins. HON. L. DESJARDINS: No, I was th ink ing of the Blake. A MEMBER: You're among frie nds now, Larry . HON. L. DESJARDINS: Among fri ends ; you can foo l me, Madam Speaker. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! Legislative Assistants - app't of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina . MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is for the Premier and I hope he is among friends.

Madam Speaker , the Premier has just appointed four Legis lative Assistants and a numb er of his back bench to various board positions. My question to the Premier is, why would he have reb uk ed the services of the veteran MLA from St. Vita l in the appo intment of Legislative Assis tants , and appointments to the various Crown Corporatio n boards where the Member for St. 1306

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 Vital could have brough t, indeed , a Int of comp eten ce and a lot of credibility and expe rience to any of those appointments? MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Pembina with a suppleme ntary. MR. D. ORCHARD: Yes, Madam Speaker, the First Minister seems reticent to answer why he passed up the services of a vete ran MLA. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a supplementar y? Order please . The Honourable Member for Brando n West on a point of order. MR. J. McCRAE: May I ask for some instruction from the Chair.

How can you ask a supplementary question when there was no answer ? MADAM SPEAKER: The honourable member certainly rightfully points out that a supplementary follow s on the answer. If there's no answe r, there can very little be a supplementa ry. The Honourable Member for Pembina has a new question ? MR. D. ORCHARD: Yes, Madam Speaker . I was going to pose a question, but I almost hesitated beca use you might have ruled me out of order. I appreciate you allowing me to pose a new question to the Premier . Mad am Speaker , to the Premier.

Because he has made a number of appointments of his back bench, notable in the absence from those appointments is the Member for St. Vital, a member of considerable experience in this House and , indeed, the Member for MADAM SPEAKER: Order pleas e. MR. D. ORCHARD: Yes, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Is this a new question? We've never heard it before? May I remind the honou ra ble member that a question should not repeat in substance a question already answered or to which an answe r has been refused. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Madam Spea ker, I thought th e Premier might not have heard my question becaus e he didn't rise to answer it, and so I would just repea t it for the First Minister in case he didn 't hear. He' s made his appointments to the Legislative Assistants and notable exceptions are the Member for St. Vital, a veteran member, and the Member for Elmwood. Would the First Minister indicate why thos e exceptions to his appoin tment list were made ? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina with a new questio n. MR. D.

ORCHARD : Madam Speaker, my new question to the First Minister is: does he intend to appoin t the Member for St. Vita l and the Member for Elmwood to the two remaining Legislative Assistant position tha t are open and available to him , after the Session is up, to avoid any poten ti al controversy? VIA Rail - transfer of positions to Montreal MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member fo r Kildonan . MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Transport. According to infor mation I have received today that 42 positio ns have been transferred out of Winnipeg MADAM SPEAKER : Order please.

MR. M. DOLIN: .. . from VIA Rail, 23 of which are in the accounting department. These jobs, I understand are being transferred to Montreal. I am wondering whether or not the Minister has been in touch with VIA Rail, whether or not something can be done about stopping the transfer of these position out of the City of Winnipeg . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation. HON. J. PLOHMAN : Madam Speaker, we do certainly share the concern of the Honourable Member for Kildonan in this issue . We have persistently made representatio n to VIA .

We have met with them as late as June 12, with the local senior representatives here in Winnipeg, and have telexed the chairman of the board in Montrea l, as well as the Federa l Minister , expressing our concern about the transfers of the positions in the accounting division here in Winnipeg. Of the 40 posit ions, 34 were to be elimin ated, 23 of them transferr ed to Montreal, as the member has pointed out , and there have been additiona l sta tements made recently.

That is very disconcerting because we want to keep in context, Madam Speaker, that Winnipeg is ind eed a transportation centre and this is contra ry to the commitments that we've received from the Federa l Minister in the pas t that Winnipeg 's role would be enhanced . So we are continuing to express our conce rn and deman ding som e compensato ry actio n by the Federal Government, particul arly in VIA , as a resul t of the cancellation of the VIA Maintenance Centr e and these transfers . We are asking for work to be done in Manitoba, Madam Speaker , in lieu of tha t transfer.

MADAM SPEAKER: May I remi nd Honourable Ministers to keep their answe rs brief. The Honourable Member for Kildona n with a supplementary . MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you , Madam Speake r. Can the Minister contact the Fede ral Minister to protest this action and inform the House of the respons e? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, I have contacted the Federal Ministe r.

I have not received any respon se to the demand that we've made tha t, because of the loss of the VIA Maint enance Centre in this provi nce, as well as these transfe r out of jobs , we want Manitoba manufacturers to have first chance at the jobs that will 1307

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 be created because of the new equipment that is being purchased by VIA and that the contracts will not be all let in Eastern Canada. That's the request that we have made, Madam Speaker. MR. M. DOLIN: A final supplementary, Madam Speaker, to the same Minister. Can the Minister contact VIA Rail and ask them to, in writing, give us the reasoning behind this so he can inform the House? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, I have also contacted, in addition to meeting with the VIA offi cials, I have contacted them asking them to ensure that Manitoba gets its fair share of any consolidations that take place in their operation, and again, that they not be transferred east; as well as requesting that jobs created as a result of additional equipment be let to firms here in Manitoba, that the contracts be let here in Manitoba and that jobs will result here in Manitoba as a result of that work. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired.

NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Aiel. MR. G. DUCHARME: Yes, Madam Speaker, I wish to ask leave to make a non-political statement. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Leave) MR. G. DUC HARME: Madam Sp eak er, I wish to cong ratulate Si ster Marie Bonin, S.G.M. on her retirement June 28, 198 6 as Sister Superi or. Sis ter Bonin has been provincial superior of the Sisters of Charity of Montreal, Grey Nuns, St. Bon iface Province.

I would like to thank Sister Bonin on behalf of all members for her dedication and lifelong commitment to improving the quality of health care in the community. MADAM SPEAK ER: The Honourabl e Min ister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, Madam Speaker, the members of the government certainly would have no problem, we'd be very pleased to join with the members of the Opposition to congratulate Sis ter Bonin.

There was a reception not too long ago, and to make sure that I would get paired, my ho nourable friend accompanied me and we presented the gove rnment's congratulations and good wishes to Sister Bonin and her outgoing council and the new counciL MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. J. WALDING: Madam Speaker, on a point of order. My point of order arises from your ruling of Wednesday, June 18 , in which you express your concern about speech content and some of the language used in debate. You remind members of their responsibility to bring breaches of that language to your attention.

In Hansard, on Page 1274 of yesterday, Wednesday, 25 June, reports that a member used the expression "a form of blackmail" in referring to the actions of another member. I bring that to your attention, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: May I remind the honourable member of Beauchesne's Citation 323 dealing with unparliamentary language. (2) "The proper time to raise such a point of order is when the words are used and not afterward," and at the time that the words were used there was no member that raised the point of order after the words had been spoken.

ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speaker, I move that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. We will be beginning Municipal Affairs Estimates in review in the Ho use in the Chamb er tod ay, and continuing with Community Services in the Committee Room. Seconded by the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

MOT ION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Municipal Affairs; and the Honourable Member for Kildonan in the Chair for the Department of Community Services. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - COMMUNITY SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: Committee will come to order. On Page 34, Resolution 32, Item 4.(

b) Child and Family Support - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Yesterday when we finished our discussion at 4:30, I had asked the Minister a question and I asked her whether there had been any internal study done as a result of the death of the child, the one that was sexually assaulted, and the Minister said that she was waiting for the results of the inquest; yet it would seem to me, Mr. Chairman, that surely there must have been some sort of internal inqu iry going on. Can the Minister tell me whether this indeed has taken place? MR. CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Mi nis ter of Community Services. HON. M.

SMITH: Yes, the process followed in such a serious case is there is the police investigation that goes on. At the same time, the provincial coordinator carries out his study. He's completed his interviews and is drawing up the report, which will then be forwarded to the agencies. That report may constitute part of the information that is tabled in court, so it's a very carefully 1308

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 done document. We have, as you ": ·c.v, in addition to review the overall issue of child abuse, put in the external review to look at the system issues. As a short term measure, we have prepared a directive that requires that people involv ed in child abuse cases, should there be any disagreement among members of a multidiscipli nary team, that it may be referred to the director or the Child Abuse Coordinator for mediation. In other words, the onus is on anyone in the field with a concern to bring it to the attention to the next level of responsibility. MR. A.

BROWN: Have any corrective measures been taken to date to make certain that this type of thing is not going to happen again, when the father of the child expresses his concern and nothing is done as a result of this? Have any corrective measures been taken? HON. M. SMITH: The specifics on the case, I think I've already described how they're being dealt with. We have met with the board of one of the agencies. We have appointed the external review. As I say, if there are any further measures that become evident, we are prepared to take them.

I think the strongest interim measure that could be taken has been taken in alerting people in the field, if anyone has any concern that a di sposition of a youngster in a child abuse situation raises concern, if there's disagreement, the onus is on that worker to raise the issue for review and mediation. The child would not be put in the contentious situation prior to that review having been completed. MR. A. BROWN: Has anyone been disciplined as a result of the actions taken? HON. M.

SMITH: We'll have to wait till the results of the investiga ti on, but we have no hesita tion in disciplining if that is what is indicated. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask some questions with respect to this whole area of child abuse bu t, first of all, acknowledge that the Minister responded to my letter of Novem ber 22, 1985 in a letter dated June 16, 1986.

In doing so, she stated that: "lt seems to me there is now recognition that child abuse is a deep social problem which will only be resolved through all of us working together in a spirit of cooperation and open explo ration of alternatives, and in this spirit of reconciliation, she provided me with this response. I want to say to her that I accept that letter in that spirit of reconciliation and, hopefully, with the review under way, that this major problem will be seriously addressed and some of the problems that have occurred in the past will be resolved.

However, her letter does raise some questions and does not answer all of the questions that I raised, and therefore I have some further questions. I had asked, Mr. Chairman, in my question No. 4, what are the numbers of instances of re-abuse of children? I'm advised of a situation where an abused child has been returned on three occasions and abused each time. What is the policy in regard to requiring workers to report incidents of abuse to the Abuse Committee? I am advised that all cases are not reported.

In her response to that specific question, the Minister indicates that in 19 85, there were 55 cases reported to the Child Abuse Regi stry, as alleged suspected, for which there was a previous allegation or suspicion. The Manitoba guidelin es on identifying and reporting child abuse in Mani toba, Regula tion 60/86, requir e consultation among Child and Family Services Agencies, police, and medical personnel. In most of the province, agencie s do this through particip ation in multidisciplinary committees, but committees are not, at present, used for all cases.

My first question to the Minister, Madam Speaker, is that it may very well be a detailed or lengthy answer that is required, but I'm concerned that there were 55 cases reported to the Child Abuse Registry in 1985, as alleged suspected, for which there was a previous allegation or suspicion. Could the Minister indic ate the type of abuse that occurred for the second time in each of those 55 situations? HON. M.

SMITH: The issue of recidivism, of repeat offence, is one that is always of a very great concern, because it always sug gests that maybe if we had done things better or been more wise, we could have prevented. The department has analyzed in considerable detail the 55 cases. I'll give you the reasons why they were allowed to remain in their home or family under agency supervision first ; and then I will giv e some other breakdown statistics. In those cases where children were allowed to remain in their home or family situation under agenc y supervision, that was 36.4 percent.

The reason cited for the decision include: (

a) Insufficient evidence to proceed with either family court or criminal court measures. Again, the member will recognize that we operate under the law and under court process so we are bound by rules that are often set in the judicial system that we don't have complete control over. Possibly some of the amendments that are being proposed now in the Crombie bill will help this situation. The second reason, lack of corroborative evidence to substantiate the victim's statement, coupled with the alleged suspected abuser's denial.

Again, changes proposed to accept the uncorroborated evidence of the child may assist us in these areas. The third reason, the alleged or suspected abuser no longer resided at, or was removed from the family home and the victim was at no immediate risk, again recalling that our new act permits the removal of the abuser. That was not a power that we had before. The next reason is that the presenting trauma was deemed to be of a minor or a limited nature, precluding any extensive investigation.

And the final reason, delays in the criminal justice system resulting in recanting on the part of the vic tim, allowing for no further basis to keep children in care under The Child and Family Services Act. Now some of the overall statistics: The child abuse statistics for the calendar year 19 85 show there was 1309

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 a total of 55 cases, child victims, reported as repeaters, or 8.5 percent of the year-end total of 646, compared with 56 cases or 8 percent in 19 84; 50.9 percent of the repeat cases were where the previous abuse report was within one year; 12.7 percent where the previous report was within two years and 36.4 percent where the case was reported prior to or during 19 82. Again, there are five more sub items here, or six more. I could read them and also distribute or I could just suspend reading and make that in formation available shortly. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I think members of the committee would appreciate receiving a copy of that because th ey're impor tant statistic s and information and it's difficult to get it all down, so if we could have copies. HON. M. SMITH: Yes, we can make them available very shortly. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indicate whether in these cases of reabuse, how many cases there were where a child was abused a third or a fourth time or whether there were any? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, we will in future have the capacity to give you that information. Right now we just have one year on the computer.

There is a tougher action taken, though, if there is a second allegation directed against the same abuser. The police will charge

whereas they won't always on an initial allegation where the evidence doesn't seem to hold up. MR. G. MERCIER: Is the Minister saying that her records do not indicate whether there are any situations where abuse occurred a third time? That sort of information is just not being kept? HON. M. SMITH: We will have that capacity. We now have one year of reporting in the computer. We could secure that by a manual count but it would take us a couple of weeks to pull out that information at the present time. MR. G. MERCIER: Could I ask the Minister to do that then? That seems to me to be extremely important.

Where the difficulty in dealing with this whole issue is, is that you're not dealing with statistics; you're dealing with normal, healthy, happy infants and that's the area I particularly want to discuss now. There is another aspect of child abuse which I will want to discuss later that relates to teenagers, and perhaps some flaws in what occurs in that area. In the area that we're addressing here - we're talking about individuals, normal, healthy, happy infants who are abused.

Once is bad enough; when we're talking about twice or three times, we have to be addressing that problem, I think, in the most serious way possible. HON. M. SMITH: We agree that the question raised is of the utmost concern. it's our intention to pass that request on to the study. They will have some research capacity and could look into that historical pattern as part of their research effort. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Minister may wish to, if she concurs with my view, in this report she's distributed, the

summary report on the rate of recidivism for physically and sexually abused children in Manitoba, in point No. 5 it says: "Of the 55 repeat cases, only 5.5 percent involved child victims aged one to three years." The use of the word "only" again just raises in my mind an attitude that I don't think should be there, "only 5.5 percent" I think, to the Minister, and to the people who work in this area, each individual child should be of their high est concern. To use a statement like that - only 5.5 percent involved child victims aged one to three years - causes me some concern. Mr.

Chairman, to raise an incident which she may wish to review with the review committee, and I can appreciate there may very well be a number of matters that we discuss in these Estima tes that she wishes to have reviewed by the review committee, Dr. Sigurdson and Professor Reid. lt has come to my attention, and it's certainly been reported in the newspaper, that a three-month old baby is in the hospital brain dead and that this may be the result of child abuse.

The mother of this child had a previous - this part has not been reported - that the mother of this child may have had or had a three month old baby die of abuse in Calgary previously and that there is a further abused child in the family. Could the Minister indicate whether that whole matter is under inv estigation, and could she indicate whether any Child and Family Service Agency received any information of the previous conduct of the mother prior to the injury being inflicted upon the three-month old baby that is now brain dead in the hospital? HON. M.

SMITH: The first point that the member made about the in clusion of the word "onl y," I agree completely with the point he made. With regard to the other situation of the infant, this was one of the four that was being investigated in detail. The information we have to date is that a mother came from Calgary, that the agency in the Alberta sent information to one of our agencies; the day after they got the information - they received it on the 8th - on the 9th, they made four attempts to locate the mother at the address given and found no trace of her.

The next day the baby was in the hospital, and the other facts that there was some history are accurate, but the information communication from one agency to another took place in the time pattern that I've told you. I guess these are the regrettable things. I am hoping that in time, as we link up both within our province and across provincial boundaries, the potential for this type of incident, I would like to see it go to zero. I don't know whether we'll ever get that close to 10 0 percent safety, but it won't be for want of trying. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, S. Ashton: The Member for St. Nobert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, I thank the Minister for that answer. With respect to the overall statistics that she raises - and it's a matter that certainly I suggested last November has to be done 1310 j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j I j

1 1 Thursday, 26 June, 1986 - when she refers to, I think it was 36.4 percent in the cases that children were returned because of a court order, is that correct? HON. M. SMI TH: In the cases where children were allowed to remain in their home family situation under agency supervision, that was 36.4 percent and there's five reasons given. They aren't further broken down. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I think there are two aspects of this that she may wish to refer to the review committee. The first aspect is with respect to training for child abuse workers.

No one questions - let's put this on the record right at the beginning - certainly, I don't question the good intentions of everyone who works in the system; but, as I understand it, speaking to some people in the police department, there are various degrees of training that workers working in this field have received as a result of which experienced workers or trained workers can quickly id entify the ki nd of evidence th at is req ui red to successfully prosecute a charge of child abuse and therefore are very helpful in bringing the proceedings to a successful conclusion.

But, on the other hand, when you have a worker who doesn't have the training in child abuse and is not familiar with the type of evidence that's required in the court proce edings and some of the challenges, etc., that may be used, that in itself causes some cases to be lost and children to be returned to a bad situation.

I take it from the Minister's comments previously that with some of the expenditures that have been made there will be an overall program of training all workers in the various agencies with respect to child abuse, and I take it, from the terms of reference of the review committee, that the review committee will meet with police authorities. lt's important that they do so because there is a dif ference in the way, for example, the RCMP treat a matter of child abuse and the Winni peg City Police treat a matter of child abuse.

City Police have a special unit to deal with that, but when you deal with the RCMP, you deal with a particular unit out of whatever it is, Lac du Bonnet, Steinbach, wherever. You're not dealing, as I understand it , with trained child abuse policemen and it has made a number of those situations more difficult. Will the review committee be reviewing this whole aspect of the training of the workers, the required training of the workers, and reviewing with the various law enforcement agencies what they feel is required in order to successfully prosecute these cases in terms of the training that should be undertaken?

HON. M. SMITH: Yes, the member touches on the very difficulty we've all had in dealing with child abuse in that we started with virtually no people trained in the area. There were a few special people who started to identify and develop expertise, but what we're in the process of is moving from that situation to where we have general skills throughout the entire network of people who come in contact with this. Now we have allocated two trainer positions to work with the new Winnipeg coordinator to develop the training programs in the Winnipeg setting.

The review 1311 committee will be looking at the training and education issues as well. Things that have been done, because I wouldn't want anyone to think that we haven 't recognized this need or been very active in the field, we've been providing public awareness programs and professional and community education programs for children, teens and parents, as well as offering crisis and interdiscipli nary resources.

We've been directly involved in over 30 workshops give by the provincial coordinator for professionals, major community in-service gr oups and students, reaching over 2,300 participants during the calendar year of 19 85. The major conference on sexual abuse of children, treatment, victims, offenders and families, sp onsored by Childr en's Aid Society of Western Manitoba, took place in October 19 85. There's been a series of abuse workshops in the Dauphin and Parklands region. There have been community workshops by Anishinabe Child and Family Services on child sexual abuse.

Workshops have been held for counsellors, day care workers, the deaf communit y, new careers, boys and girls club, homemakers, corrections, home-school/parent-teacher associations, Manitoba Soc iety of Criminolo gy, Uni versity of Manitoba and sexual abuse survivors. We've been providing for the ongoing distribution of guideli nes, protocols, program information and relevant articles, along with films, filmstrip and video cassette material for professionals and students through the province.

There's been ongoing planning and inv olvement with the child abuse program consultant for the Department of Education for workshops, policy and procedures development affecting schools and staff along with the draft of the parent-teacher home-school child abuse resources package. We've developed an inventory of agency resources in regards to train ing, education, treatment, and prevention with a view to having a liaison network throughout the province to complement and collaborate with other departmental networks.

We've been invo lved in planned public awareness in regards to child abuse and family violence with a continuing emphasis on the multi-discipl inary approach to physically and sexually abused children and their families. There continues to be a renewed shift towards community or regionall y-based, multi-dis ciplinar y, family-oriented abuse teams and committees working towards greater comprehensiv eness, compatibility and cooperation in all the phases of child abuse; the identification, the intervention, and treatment.

Reflecting the growing professional and public awareness and concern, there will continue to be a major need to respond to the number of abuse cases reported, especially in the area of sexual and physical abuse in terms of treatment and prev ention. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Deputy Chairman, my real question was will the review committee be reviewing the procedures and type of evidence that's required, etc., with law enforcement agencies? HON. M. SMITH: I did say they'd be looking at the training issues and the interface among dif ferent systems.

The polic e, teachers, counsellors, social 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 workers and the health workers have all been part of these multi-disciplinary teams. Again, we're broadening the circle of involvement and trying to deepen the knowledge and skills of people as they work in the field. One other aspect that the review committee will be looking at is interface issues. What is the relationship of these dif ferent types of skilled people in the field? How do they work together? What are their mutual obligations? What kinds of information do they share? MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, the Minister has referred to the multi-dis ciplinary committees. lt's certainly been reported to me that there are many situations where the committees are not used and decisions are made that perhaps are not appropriate. Is it mand atory for multi-discipl inary committees to be used in all incidents of child abuse? I'm told that in some jurisdictions in the Unit ed States, there's not just a directive or a guideline from the department, it's a law. lt's a statute passed by the State Legislature in a number of instances. HON. M.

SMITH: The guidelines that were developed, the protocols of a couple of years ago that were publicly supported and endorsed by the Ministers of Education, Health, the Attorney-General, and Community Services put an obligation on people to report. Cases do require involvement by the medical people and the police. One of the problems we think may be out there and asked the review committee to review for us is the mutual understanding that the different disciplines have as to the mandate and the procedures that their respective disciplines operate under.

Sometimes, people trained in the medical expertise won't understand the mandate that the child and family service workers have. For example, a medical person might think that a child should be taken away from a family, but the child and family service worker must work within the judicial system and the law, because there's the rights of families f!iS well as the responsibil ity to protect children. With stronger law and better trained people, hopefully we'll be able to improve in that area in our ability to deal with these cases.

But the gearing up from the time a few years ago when there was a concerted effort to deal with this problem, to the present time not all of those issues have been fully resolved. When I look at what's being done across the country, a lot of them, they're back a few steps from where we are. They just say we don't know what to do.

We're into the next stages where we're using the committees and building both from the prevention end and the treatment end, but as the numbers of cases grow and the complexity of the cases, getting that system to function smoothly and effec tively , is I gu ess the challenge to us now and we're looking forward to the report of the review committee to help us. We haven't sat idly by though waiting for that report.

We've put out our interim directive to require that any professional working with a youngs ter, in any kind of team way, if they're not satisfied with the decisions being taken, they have the responsibilit y to report and get it mediated. We figure that's one line of protection until we can address some of the other issues. MR. G. MERCIER: Fine, Mr. Deputy Chairman.

As I understand it now then, if a member of a multi- discipli nary committee thinks, for example, a child should not be returned to a particular home and the decision is being made contrary to that person's feeling, that person could then appeal the decision to the acting director of child welfare, who will make the final decision until the review is completed. HON. M. SMITH: Yes, the line of reporting would be first to the agency director, and then if not satisfied, to the director of child welfare. So, it would be first to the agency director and then to the provincial child welfare director.

They not only may report or approach, but they should; they're really obligated to if they have a concern. MR. G. MERCIER: If they have that concern they shall appeal? HON. M. SMITH: Should. MR. G. MERCIER: Maybe it should be shalL HON. M. SMITH: The onus is with them. lt's a directive. I don't know if we're going to chop their heads off, but for the di fferent memb ers of the teams to be accountable we have to have some ways of working out how they work together and what the respective mandates are. As I say, sometimes there may be a genuine need for the review.

In other cases sometimes, the mandate of the respective people is not fully understood by the other member and sometimes there's an overstepping of mandate lines, but those are the issues that we must have resolved. MR. G. MERCIER: Is it man datory that these cases have to be reviewed by a multidiscipli nary committee? Is the Minister satisfied that all of them are being reviewed by a multidiscipli nary committee, and that one person or perhaps one worker is not making decisions without the matter being reviewed by the multidiscipli nary committee? HON. M.

SMITH: The multidisciplinary committees are, as I think I descri bed in the tr aining, developing thr oughout the provinc e, but we don't have fully operative ones throughout as yet. The guideli nes which were put out a year or two ago require the consultation among the health, police and Child and Family personnel where the allegation is substantial. In other words, I guess it's clear that we're getting a great many allegations, and some of them there don't seem to be any of substance whatsoever. There has to be some evidence to move it to the next stage.

Und er Mani toba law, the agency has the legal respon sibil ity to make the deci sion. We have the committees. We will have them all over the province in time, but there are increasing numbers of them. What is at issue and what we hope the review committee will give us some gui dance on is the decision-making process and responsibil ity, because there's an area where health people have the right and responsibil ity. There's an area where the Child and Family Service people do; there's an area where the police do. lt's to 1312

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 work out the fine points of that and what is done if any of the parties feel that there is a dangerous situation persisting. In British Columbia, where they've been here and there developing a local committee - I know we had an extensive report on one that had developed in the Richmond area - they never review individual cases. They might once a year review a case as a type of educational program. They spend their time on learning what the respective disciplines do. lt's a communication model, if you like, but the social workers are making the decisions. We've gone somewhat further.

Let me just read what was a guideline when we put it out a couple of years ago, and which became a regulation under the new act. it's 3.2 under our new regulations: "On receipt of a report or referral of suspected or alleged abuse which may have resulted in physical injury to, or sexual exploitation of a child, an agency shall: (

a) where there is a preliminary opinion that serious physical injury or sexual exploitation of the child has occurred, immediately arrange for a medical examination of the child allegedly abused and, where believed necessary, any other child in the family by a duly qualified medical practitioner or at a medical child abuse facility; (

b) consult immediately with the local police as to the particulars of the case; and (

c) continue the confidential and mutual sharing of all relevant inf ormati on with the police, medical and hospital pro fes sionals and other agencies or professionals involved in the investigation and treatment of the case to ensure the best course of action is taken." MR. G. MERCIER: I've read that regulation, Mr. Deputy Chairman. Are there not multidisciplinary committees certainly available in all areas of the City of Winnipeg for the City of Winnipeg? HON. M. SMITH: There are three committees that sit regularly in the City of Winnipeg, one at the St.

Bonif ace Hospital, the Physical Abuse Committee and the Sexual Ab use Commit tee, as a means of effe cting th at regulation. MR. G. MERCIER: Would the Minister consider at least, if she's not prepared to do it, having the review committee look at this question of requiring the use of a multidiscipli nary commit tee decision-making process where there is a substantial allegation made, so th at we could be assured that th ere is a spokesperson who's sole concern will be the protection of the child? HON. M. SMITH: That is what we have asked them to do. MR. G.

MERCIER: Can you make it mandatory, not should but shall? HON. M. SMITH: The regulation says "shall." We, therefore, expect that the review committee will examine to see whether there's any strengthening or refi ning that is required to make it clear. I think we're on the same wavelength on this. Again, there will be cer tainly opportunity for the member to review the report and, if there's any strengthening or variation that he thinks will increase the protection of the children, I'd certainly welcome hearing. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Deputy Chairman, in the light of the reports, the first was by Dr.

Ellis, that there were some 20 children in high-risk situations, and then subsequently there were statements made in the media by Dr. Ferguson that there were 30, I believe, children and infants in high -risk situations. He referred in the media, in the press reports to an instant where he had told a social worker not to return a child to a situation because I think, in his words, the infant was going to be kill ed if it persisted. He referred to a continuing practice of that kind.

Since the issuance of the directive in this matter, have there been, first of all, any matters which have gone to the acting director of Child Welfare to resolve? Can she assure members of this committee that, whether it's 20 or 30 or whatever the accurate number are, those children, those infants are being looked after properly and are not in danger? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. M. SMITH: I can table the interim directive tonight.

With regard to the other situation, one of the reasons that the numbers vary is that the health authorities keep records of numbers for their purposes, to identify people who may be readmitted to a hospital. There has been no automatic information sharing to keep the numbers all reconciled between the Child and Family Service people, who keep their numbers in a different way and for different purposes. That's one item that we've asked the review committee to give us advice on.

In some cases, the medical people express a concern, but they don't realize that Child and Family Service workers cannot just go in and take a child, that they have to go through certain legal procedures. They have to come up with appropriate evidence. They have to satisfy the rules of the court. That's why we're so pleased to see the change in the Crosbie Bill, at least as it affects children. lt should increase the ability of the court to deal with these issues. Training of workers also will help over time although, again, I doubt if we'll reach perfection.

What we're often dealing with is situations that are difficult. If there's not visible evidence, it's difficult to establish, and there are the rights of the abusers, which also have to be protected. There are false allegations, as well, and that's the dilemma. The Child and Family Service workers work within the context of the legisl ative mandate, through The Child and Family Service Act. Some of the things that doctors want them to do, they would be charged as overs tepping their mandate.

The reason we put the directive out is that we felt that if there was a particular concern, mandate or not, by one professional vis-a-vis another's actions, it deserved a second look at a senior level. Perhaps there would be some other way to establish protection for the child if the concern was great. As I say, I think these are issues that will come up as the system evolves because we run into more and more complex situations. 1313

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister assure us that the children, whether it's 20 or 30, or whatever the number is, that their situations have been examined and she can assure the committee that they are in situations where they are fully protected? HON. M. SMITH: The meeting that I held in my office a couple of weeks ago, of the chief actives in the area, the executive directors of the agencies, the Health Protection Centre, people from St. Boniface, the coordina tors, that issue of the num bers and the youngsters inv olved, came up.

I must tell the member that there was considerable disagreement as to those numbers and how they were arrived at. In individual cases, there had been actions taken that were not acknowledged by all parties. Without judging who was right and who was wrong, it alerted me to the fact that we had to have much clearer rules and gui delines as to how multidiscipli nary groups work togeth er, and that we had to put the onus on individuals who had concerns, to move their concern to another level if they weren't satisfied. In this case, that wasn't occurring.

We were getting a blanket statement that there were large numbers of youngsters at risk, and no action had been taken to raise the issue to another level that could have looked into it. Again, I'm not blaming; I'm just saying that that was the situation.

By telling the group that we intended to not only have that longer term system interface review, but also to put in the interim directive, we let them all know that our expectation is that they act as professionals and raise the issue, where they have a concern, for immediate attention, rather than letting it drag on and on and, you know, sort of muttering behind the scenes, because that isn't helpful to anyone.

There will be legitima te differences of opinion but, surely, by having a second review and having the case laid out better and developing better understandings of how the different systems work, we should be able to get an effective multidisciplin ary system working. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, has the acting director of Child Welfare been required to make any decisions as a result of this directive which she's going to table a copy of tonight? HON. M. SMITH: There have been no cases.

Of the 34, or the 20, we went round the room, for the 20 people who are the front-line people in that area, and asked them if there were any cases at risk, to their knowledge, as of that day. We got a variation from zero to three. No one would corroborate the 34 or the 20. We did get an explanation as to where those numbers came from. They were youngs ters who had been admitted to hospital for some physical or sexual abuse symptom and, in a sense, they'd stayed on hospital records.

We gathered that part of the use of that is to pick up those youngsters if they reappear, but that there was no systematic communication flow back and forth between the medical and the child and family. Each discipline, I guess, has had its own traditional ways of keeping numb ers and protecting confidentiality. What we may be facing is a need to further define confidentiality and information sharing in the light of multidisciplin ary committees. That's one of the specific items we asked the review team to give us advice on. MR. G.

MERCIER: That raises the whole question of the provincial law as it applies to child abuse cases. The Minister has acknowledged there have been certain improvements in The Criminal Code as a result of Mr. Crosbie's bill. Will the review commitee, and I'd suggest it would be a good idea, will the review committee be asked or given the resources to examine existing provincial legislation?

In the light of the experiences that will be brought to their attention by people who work in this field, particularly now, and I'm talking about the infant cases, make it exteremely difficult, in many of these areas, to successfully obtain guardianship of the child in an abuse situation. Perhaps there are some changes that should be made in our existing provincial legislation that, frankly, would not put, as it appears to be - the onus is all on the people trying to carry forward the case, the Child and Family Service Agencies.

In many of these cases, they're up against skilled lawyers on the other side and they're very dif ficult to prosecute successfully. Will they be asked to review existing legislation and make a recommendation as to whether or not any changes should be made to the existing provincial legislation? HON. M. SMITH: Again, the member asking the questions is the lawyer here so I am going to giv e you my best effort

interpretation. If you have a further enlightenment to give me, ple ase do so. The Child and Family Act in Manitoba operates under The Manitoba Evidence Act. Whether it's by convention, necessity or constitution I don't know but The Manitoba Evidence Act is kept in parallel with The Canada Evidence Act so that if the Crosbie bill results in change at The Canada Evidence Act, I think we can expect parallel changes here in The Manitoba Evidence Act. With regard to our Child and Family Services Act, we've just gone through a major overhaul that took three years in consultation and refinement.

Having said that and having worked hard on the regulations and the various modes of making it effective, once

an act is passed it then becomes subject to improvement and we will be looking for any areas of improvement. Again, I invite the member with his legal experience or any of his colleagues who have suggestions for im pro vement, to di scuss them with the review committee and/or submit them directly to me because it is an area where we will keep refining. If we find that we need and could profit from some new elements we would certainly look at them. MR. G.

MERCIER: So it would be quite open to the review committee in carrying out this review in the event that, as a result of their representations or submis sions that are made to them, that they could make some recommendations if they so deem fit to change existing provincial legislation to . . . HON. M. SMITH: We put no limits on their mandate in terms of what they could recommend and if legislative change is deemed appropriate, we would certainly expect that they would make that recommendation. 1314 j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j I j

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 MR. G. MERCIER: Sir, I have a number of other questions but I don't want to monopolize the time. Perhaps the other members may want to ask questions. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARST AIRS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. According to the maintenance of children, it was my understanding in the review of the literature leading up to the disbursement, if you will, of the Children's Aid Society into a number of agencies for the city of Winnipeg, that one of the strengths of the new agencies was that they should be able to reduce the number of children in care.

Therefore I was somewhat surprised to read of an increase of $1. 1 million in the area of maintenance of children. Has it become apparent that, in fact, the agencies will not be able to reduce the number of children under maintenance? HON. M. SMI TH: When the new agen cies were established closer to the grass roots of the community, they did in fact start to come in contact with more children. There will be a breaking-in period of time where we pick up youngsters who perhaps were being missed before.

The increase, at least the statistics we had when we did the review late last Fall, had shown an increase on the children in care side of 11 percent and increase on the family service caseload of 75 percent. A lot of the 11 percent can be attributed to the agencies being closer to the ground and therefore getting in on the cases that probably some of which might have been missed before. Also, the parallel tightening up and increase in reporting on the child abuse side has produced, in a sense, a more serious trend of reporting, so we have two trends that are bucking one another.

The other area where we are noticing a serious increase in difficult cases has been the adolescent area. We've tried to get as much explanation for why that is occurring as we can. lt seems to be a phenomenon of social change, single parents, unem ployment, poverty, cultural mixes and so on - a great many contributing factors - general unrest in the society. We try to keep an analysis going of what the context issues are but the Child and Family Services system alone can't deal with the solutions to all of those problems.

We can be catalysts in the field and help to get other relevant groupings toget her, we can certainly play our role, but there are many contributing factors. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr. Chairman, if we move into the actual details of maintenance of children, can the Minister tell us whether there has been an increase of per diem for the foster care? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, in the foster rate care, last year there was an increase of 3.5 percent. This year we haven't pinned it down to the precise amount but it will be substantially in the same area. In addition, we have developed a special foster rate over $1 million.

A couple of years ago there was no such rate at all. That's to handle particularly difficult adolescents; in some cases youngsters with severe developmental problems. MRS. S. CARS TAIRS: Has the department seriously considered the option of adoption of foster children by the foster parents with payments to continue? HON. M. SMITH: In general, in adoption we don't subsidize. There have been a very few very special cases where there has been some subsidy given. These would be for multi-problem children. There's a fiscal problem. We don't get cost-sharing from the Federal Government for subsidized adoption.

There has been a philosophical position that when you adopt you take the child into your family as though they were your own, and if a family has income problems then that should be dealt with through the social support systems that exist for all families. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I think that everyone is concerned with the lack of stability which is frequently afforded to foster children, in that as they become more difficult, as all children tend to do as they enter adolescence, foster parents frequently choose not to foster any longer.

Has the Ministry considered that the subsidized adoption of children who had been in foster care with those individuals for a certain length of time, and where those individuals could not adopt because of the additional financial burden, that in fact greater stability might thereby be afforded to the foster child? HON. M. SMITH: Our response to that particular problem has been at the front end where we have introduced permanency planning, a model that is going to require agencies to come up a permanent plan for young children.

They will be expected to do this within a time frame of the young child coming into care. That way, we hope to forestall, as much as possi ble, long-term foster care situations, because we agree that the belonging and the permanency aspects are particularly important. In the past it's been a bit loose in terms of how long youngsters could stay in foster care. MRS. S. CARST AIRS: Can the Minister explain what kind of residential care is involved in the item that gets $13 some-million of the budget? lt's under 4.(b)(3). HON. M. SMITH: The change year-over-year is made up of several factors.

There's been an increase on a couple of items. We've reclassed a few level 2 beds to level 3. Again, we tried to monitor what the demand level is of the previous year in order to budget for the subsequent year, to keep some flexibil ity. There's 24,000 more gone in because of a slight increase in use of level 4. There has been $1 ,028,800 reduction overall in use of residential beds.

That's basically bringing into this year's budget the reductions that were realized in the previous year, and an increase in operating funds for agencies of $255,700, resulting in a net decrease in the budget of $700,900.00. lt's basically a reflection of our department's continued effort to maintain children in the parental home wherever possible, with appropriate supports, and thus reduce the number of residential care beds in use. There was a net closure of 22 residential care beds in the province over the last year. Where we've made 1315

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 some increase is for group home beds for sexually abused girls; and we have two special foster homes with four beds. We do have a list of all the homes which can be distri buted now. MRS. S. CAR STAIRS: Thank you. That's really what I was looking for, rather than the decrease or increase, was actually what kind of institutions we were looking for under this particular situation. Like wise, can the Minister explain the kind of funding that is given under the Family Support? HON. M.

SMITH: Yes, this is an area that has undergone considerabl e increase, 19 3,400 to accommodate homemaker volume increase; 700,000 for specialized child care staff; 88,900 general operating increase for agencies, a total incr ease of 98 2,300 to pr ovide additional funding for homemaker services, parent-aid and extended support to foster or natural families and to residential care facilities and for specialized child care staff services to chi ldren in foster home s, residential care facilities and natural homes.

There's been a 54.9 percent increase in demand for these services experienced in our current year. $250,000 was previously allocated to exceptional rate care and is now transferred to this area. A further 471 ,500 was identified as being related to situations which would have otherwise increased the volume and price of foster home for special rate care. That is, had we not had this program, our foster home and special rate care costs would have been high er, so it's a flexible type of service which can be stacked on top of the basic foster home and special rate care. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: Can the Minister tell me if there has been any consideration to the similar emergency crisis nursery that has been established in Calgary and several other places across Canada, as much to prevent child abuse of infants and as well as provide that outlet for parents who are fe eling extreme stress and frustration? HON. M. SMITH: I'm not directly familiar with the Calgary model, but we have actually been doing quite a bit to meet this particular need here. We've worked more on a model of helping families place youngs ters in care where not all the needy ones are together.

A special needs youngster can be placed into our day care. There's quite a variety of day care, as you know. The agency just works out an agreement with the parent, and the range of options, there's foster homes that sometimes don't have many youngsters and could take one. The family day care is used for this type of purpose fairly often, and group day care also has some capacity to deal with these youngsters. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: I think tha t thi s particular situation, and I have given your staff the clipping, is with regard to an imm ediate crisis situation that confronts a family in which they can take a child under the age of six for up to 72 hours in order to provide that kind of relief from pressure that they might be feeling. I just raise it for the Minister as something that her department might wish to look into. HON. M. SMITH: I think I'd like to state more strongly that we feel that the type of service and the range of service we have is actually ahead of this type of crisis nursery.

We're more flexible in terms of length of stay based on need, and we have a greater variety of placements available to us. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I don't think this is the place for argument, but I think it's an entirely dif ferent thing than what we're doing in this province. Well, perhaps I'll let someone else ask some questions for awhile. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, will the review committee be consulting the front-line social workers, the workers who are in the field? HON. M. SMITH: Yes. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Will they have confidentiality? HON. M. SMITH: Yes. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Are any of the agencies presently developing specialists? HON. M. SMITH: Yes. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Could the Minister indicate which agencies and in what areas? HON. M. SMITH: Virtually all the agencies do, in fact, have a consultant or a coordinator to deal with these issues. There may be a couple of the smaller rural ones. They would still have to name someone who was the main contact person. In the city, all agencies have a coordinator/consultant person. Central and Northwest also each have a family therapist. Each agency was given one specialist from the old Children's Aid.

The interim guideline requires that each agency have an internal structure, a process that must be followed in a child abuse case. In addition to the worker being involved, the supervisor and the executive director must review the cases. MRS. G. HAMMOND: When I was talking about specialists, I wasn't just referring to a coordinator or a consultant. Like, say, in Central and Northwest, how many social workers would be on staff? HON. M. SMITH: There is variation among the agencies, because of their caseload size. The numbers I'll give you of staff are total numbers.

They exist in the agency in the ratio of four professional staff to one support staff, approximately. There's roughly the four to one ratio. So I guess, if you take a fifth off, then you'll have the num ber of social workers: Central, 67 .25; Northwest, 66 - there are decimals here, I'll round them off - 67; West, 38; Northeast, 34; South, 32; Eastern, 17. MR. CHAIRMAN: The time being 4:30, it is time for Private Members' Hour. I'll interrupt the proceedings. We will reconvene at eight o'clock. The Member for Kirkfield Park can be first on the list. 1316

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 SUPPLY - MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: This

section of the Committee of Supply shall be dealing with the Estamates of the Department of Municipal Affairs. We shall begin with a statement from the Minister responsible for this department. The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, I would like to present the Estimates for the Department of Municipal Affairs for the fiscal year 1986-87. Members will already be aware of the supplementary information which accompanies the Municipal Affairs Estimates, and I believe by now it's been circulated.

The past year has been a productive one for the Department of Municipal Affairs, and the department has made strides in several important areas . In the past year, substantial progress has been achieved towards the implementation of assessment reform . This area has been and will remain the highest priority for the Department of Municipal Affairs, as the department continues to collect the massive amounts of information and to lay the extensive groundwork necessary to bring about a successful implementation.

The department will continue to work actively to design a system that is fair, that is up-to-date, and that is understandable to all Manitobans. In the past few years, assessment reform reports have emphasized the absolute necessity for proper adequate information as the basis for any new systems of assessment. Several critical steps towards this end have been taken in the past year. The most complex and lengthy step in the reform process, the one which will ensure that information is both manageable and readily accessible, is the task of developing a computerized process for assessment.

Computerization of the assessment process in Mani toba will allow assessments across the province to be completed, analyzed, and updated simultaneously, therefore for more accurate and up-to-date levels of value to be established. I'm pleased to be able to inform members that the computer staff have now completed the first phase of this project, the needs analysis phase, which is critical to the establishment of a proper foundation for any new system . As a result, the requirements of the new system have been thoroughly examined and defined .

Computer staff are now well und er way on the second phase, the design system. The requirements established by the needs analysis are being conceptually linked to form technical specifications. These specifications will, in turn, form the basic road map of functions in the computerized system. All of these functions will be tested to ensure that the system will perform as needed. While the primary emphasis is on system design at present, we are at the same time planning for the last two phases of the computerization project, programming and system testing.

I'm pleased to report that we have chosen our Portage la Prairie Assessment District Office as a test site for our computerized system, and we've already purchased and installed the appropriate computer equipment . Over the next two years, we will be introducing the various elements of the program and testing them in 1317 the Portage area. Once successful test results have been achieved, the system will be expanded to the other nine assessment branch offices.

I'm also pleased to report that my departm ent has completed several tasks that will perform greater fairness in property assessment throughout the prov ince by establishing uniform standards and proce dures. I should have said "promote," rather than "pe rform." During the last Session of the Legislature, Bill 83 was approved by the House. It rewrote the assessment appeal provisions, repealing the appropriate sections within The City of Winnipeg Act to allow the new uniform provisions in The Municipal Assessment Act, to govern appeals throughout the province.

Bill 83 was a first major move toward a single piece of legislat ion that would govern assessment rig ht across Manitoba, including the City of Winnipeg . Throughout the next several years, we will continue to rewrite legislation, to promote greater fairness, greater equity, and a more understandable system of assessment in Manitoba. Significant headway has already been made toward the development of new uniform standards and guidelines for the actual assessment of property.

At the instigation of the Department of Municipal Affairs, the first province-wide joint procedural manual has been developed by the staff of my department, working in close cooperation with staff from the City of Winnipeg. This represents the first time in 30 years that staff from both the province and the city will be using the same manual for rating property. Assessment guidelines in the province will now be consistent between Winnipeg and rural Manitoba. The information contai ned in the manual is current to 1984. It is presently being field tested in both rural Man itob a and in the City of Winnipeg.

Additional joint procedural manuals for the valuation of commercial buildings and for the valuation of land are currently being developed, again by department staff, working closely with cit y staff. Completion and field testing is expected within the next two to three months. As part of our efforts to promote a greater understanding of the assessment system and what assessment reform will mean to Manitobans, my department continues to be concerned about public education. In addition to the ser ies of pamphlets on assessment reform that were issued last year , a videotape has been produced this year.

This videotape was used to inform all municipal councils of the new procedures regarding the establishment and conduct of a board of revision, in keeping with the 1985 amendments. It is our intention to produce additional vid eotapes and pamphlets on various aspects of assessment , over the next several years, as significant changes are made in the assessment process , and to keep the people of Manitoba informed about the progress of assessment reform .

I would also like to comment briefly on a final area of assessment reform commonly ref er red to as "classification and portioning." Members, I am sure, will recall that the Weir Committee recommended tha t property classes be defined and t hat prescribed portions of value be assigned to each of these classes to reflect their desired level of contribution for taxation

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 purposes. Bill 105 was passed to allow the province to im plement this recommenda tion of the Weir Committee. My staff and their counterparts at the City of Winnipeg have been spending a considerable amount of time trying to categorize the over 500,000 roll entries in Manitoba into identifiable property types. Their efforts have now resulted in the initial definition of nine distinct property classes and the coding of all properties directly under the provincial assessment jurisdiction into these classes.

This material, together with comparable information from the City of Winnipeg, which we've just recently received, will be used to develop the portions that would be prescribed as percentages of value for the entire provincial assessment base. When I've had an opportunity to study the information being assembled, and there has been an opportuni ty for discussion with the departmental assessment staff invol ved in a development of classification and portioning, I will be in a better position to provide more detail.

Obviously at that point, we will be meeting with municipal officials to discuss the various aspects of classification and portioning. During the past year, the Department of Municipal Affairs assumed a new responsibili ty, that of the Surface Rig hts Bo ard. Since then, we have made several changes in the workings of the board to impr ove the service to the parties involved, in surface rights disputes, and to provide closer administrative support to the board. In addition, a new chairp erson has been appointed, Mr. J.D.

McNairnay who is well known to members as the former Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs and as a former chairperson of the Public Utilities Board. I look forward in this year to meet ing with representatives fro m both the Su rface Rights Association and the oil industry to discuss a number of concerns, including the issue of compensation to landowners and occupants. Members are well aware that Municipal Affairs has a long tradition of consultation.

That tradition has been maintained and strengthened in the past year and I certainly intend to continue the practice of active consultation with municipal offic ials, as well as with their organizations. I would like to make special reference at this time to consultation with our largest municip ality, the City of Winnipeg. The city is currently under a court order to reassess all properties by the end of December, 19 86. Considerable speculation exists as to the tax impact on Wi nnip eg ratepayers that will accompany this reassessment.

Although this topic falls somewhat outside the realm of the Department of Municipal Affairs Estimates review, I do want to assure all members that as the Minister responsible for the assessment process, I am eagerly awaiting final information from the city's new assessment statistics. 1t is my intention, once the Department of Municipal Affairs has been given an opportunity to analyze this information, to sit down with the City of Winnipeg offic ials and to discuss whether provincial involvement or relief is appropriate and, if so, to what extent.

While still on the subject of consultation, I would like to thank the Union of Manitoba Municipalities, the Manitoba Association of Urban Municipalities and the Manitoba Municipal Adminis trators Association for the 1318 cooperation and mutual efforts over many years. That cooperative effort and attitude has enabled th e department to consult on various programs and to share in the development of wide-ranging discussions of mutual concern and interest.

The overall Estima tes for the Department of Municipal Affairs are down slightly - 1. 3 percent - the most significant dif ference being the reduction in funding to the Main Street Manitoba Program. Main Street Manitoba has been one of the most successful programs ever offered by the province, generating over $12 million in direct economic activity in 41 rural communities across the province. My colleague, the Minister of Finance, said thanks to "Perfect Pete," my predecessor who initiated the program in 1982. The capital amount of $2 million is provided to allow the completion of the various ongoing projects.

While no new commitme nts are being made under this program in the coming year, I am proud to say that Main Street Manitoba is meeting its goals o.f revitalizing rural communities and, at the same time, providing jobs to many rural Manitobans, proving that the provincial, municipal and private sectors can cooperate to enhance downtown areas in a varied and imaginative fashion while generating significant economic activity. Its place will be taken by a more far-ranging program of assistance which is presently being developed to assist municipalities in rebuilding their basic services.

Holding back new commitments until a new program is ready will allow the best possible use of the available funds. I am pleased to report that the ceiling has been removed from the Urban Transit Grants and that the City of Brandon will this year receive an increase of 9 percent in assistance to this very valuable service. Members will note that the salary amounts for the Department of Municipal Affairs reflect the current collective agreement figures agreed upon with the MGEA.

Certain minor adjustments reflect conditions of vacancy, reclassification, maternity leave, etc .; otherwise, the staffing situation remains basically stable at 297 staff years. Members will note some minor adjustments in the Municipal Advisory and Financial Services section. Basically, the grants in support continue as before. The amount provided for grants in lieu of taxes represents a 3.7 5 percent inc rease over last year's actual expenditure. However, as members are well aware, these figures are always variable depending upon the muni cipa l mill rates, acqui sition of prope rty by government, etc.

The reduction in the Centennial Grants figure reflects a decrease in a numb er of commu nitie s making centennials this year. Members will be aware that a great many centennial celebrations have already been held. The figure reflects those which are anticipated during the coming 12 -month period. I am pleased to advise members that the vil lage of Binscarth will be making its centennial this summer and that the R.M. of Gimli and Ochre River will be celebrating their centennials in 1987. Members will note the Police Services Grant amount reflects the formula currently being utilized.

The existing cost -sharing and gr ant arrangements have been developed through consultation with representatives

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 from the two municipal associations in the province. At present, rural municipalities in our province are making a contribution toward the cost of a service that benefits them. Any change s to the existing arrange ments will be made through the same consultative process. More detail about the formula is provided in the Estima tes Supplement and I would refer you to that information. In October, municipal elections will be held throughout the province. No doubt, new faces will appear to carry on the traditions of progressive local government in the province.

Some old, famil iar faces will enjoy retirement from the constant pressures which municipal government imposes on the elected representative. I would like to pay tribute at this time to the great service provided by local government officials in this provi nce. Theirs is the least public ized level of government. lt is also one which deals most directly with the local taxpayer and, as we know, these dealings can be very, very rough and immediate. Manitoba has a long tradition of sound progressive municipal government.

In 1986, we recognized the 10 0th anniversary of the passage of The Municipal Act which provided for govern ment at the communit y level throughout the province. Students of government will recognize the enormous potential and responsibility that has taken place over that 10 0-year period. As the province has grown and matured, so has the provision of local services by municipal government. I would also like to recognize the contributions made by the appointed officials in the local government field.

They provide the specific day-to-day services which are frequently taken for granted by each of us, and I pay tribute to them now. In the fall, the Department of Municipal Affairs will once again be embarking on a series of seminars for the municipal representatives. Seminars will be held for newly appointed municipal representatives, as well as for officials involved in the mechanics and procedures of the municipal elections. After the new year, the department will again be hosting seminars designed to assist and inform newly elected, in fact, any members of municipal councils who are interested in attending.

I'm particularly pleased to report that, once again, these seminars will be hosted by the town of Gimli. We have found in the past years that the seminars are well supported and that the feedback has been extremely positive from newly elected representatives. We look forward to these activities as an opportunity to begin the process of consultation and cooperation early in the careers of newly elected municipal politicians. Municipal Affairs has traditionally pursued cooperation and consultation with local governments across the province.

Effect ive lines of communication, coupled with recognition of the mutual interests and concern has enabled my department and the people inv olved in local government to meet many challenges together. In the coming year, I'm confident that the Department of Mun icipa l Affairs, its representatives, and it s programs will continue to work with local government in Manitoba to meet new challenges for the benefit of all Manitobans. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Opposition critic. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I rise to respond to the Minister's opening statement having heard parts of it before at some of the municipal meetings that I was able to attend - no thanks to the Minister's cooperation - and I guess that as a new critic, I had looked forward to some cooperation in working to put every effort to put forward some positiv e suggestions, to hear the kind of very thing that the Minister talks about; communications and working relationship. Mr.

Chairman, by his actions, it's very obvious that the Minister is not as anxious to cooperate as we are, that we had made a very common-sense approach to the Minister, to his Whip which was responded to by their Whip, that it was it was a common-sense approach that I should have the opportunity to proceed to a meeti ng by or with them, to some degr ee, to convenience the Opposition. However, we know what happened in that particular case, so I guess the stage is now set for the kind of criticism and the kind of activity in which he expects to have pursued. As well, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister at the outset that, hopefully, he could respond as to when the supplementary information for the legislative review was prepared. You know, it seems strange that at two o'clock in the afternoon of the day the Estima tes of the Department of Municipal Affairs is to open, that we now have a table that I'm supposed to be able to use as a cross-reference to the Estimates Book which we've had for some time.

I ask the House and I ask the public of Manitoba, is that a fair and reasonable approach for the Opposition critic to have it laid on his desk at two o'clock in the afternoon and by three o'clock having to ... (inaudible) ... is that asking for cooperation or asking for a little bit sti ffer criticism, Mr. Chairman?

I, being the fair-minded person that I am, will not dwell a long time on it. - (I nterjection) - I would have thought that the Minister who is relatively new in the role in which he has now found himself - (I nterjection) - would have been a little bit more anxious to show some kind of a new example from the previous Minister who, I guess, behind the scenes maybe still is directing the Ministry of Municipal Affairs to the tune of $55,000 to the taxpayers of Manitoba, the former Member for Springfield, who was soundly defeated by our new Member for Springfield and pleased to see that he has joined us in this Assem bly; soundly defeated then, the people of Springfield spoke out very loudly and clearly, and I'm very happy that, in fact, took place.

Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the members of the government would wait their opportunity to speak in this committee so that I can have . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Member for Arthur has the floor. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The whole is sue of the dep artment and the information which has been slow in forthcoming will take a few mi nutes for some of us to have the opportunity to go throug h, but I want to make some general comments and there's very little in the Minister's opening statements which I have to work from except the whole area of assessment is one which, I guess, 1319

Thursday, 26 June, 1986 if one were comparing it to the kind of action that the municipalities think should take place, speed has been somewhat less than desirable. The Weir Report which was brought down in the 1980- 81 period, completed just about the time that this government took of fice, we thought and the municipalities thought that there would be some swift and decisive action. Well unfortunately, they're in their second term of office, and we now still see very little action and the desire from the municipalities to see again this government move a little more swiftly.

The Minister keeps talking about how great things are happening and the fairness and equitabil ity. He makes reference to the fact that they're now going to be working off the assessment book, the same assessment guideli nes or book will be used by the City of Wi nnipeg and the rural parts of Manitoba. Well, I have a question there as well, Mr. Chairman, as to whether or not the businesses in rural Manitoba will have the same assessments as those in the City of Winnipeg?

I think the consideration of the traffic that is exposed to those larger centres has to be taken into consi der ation versus th ose ones in the smaller communities. I hope that's taken into account. I would hope that the kinds of services that are provided in some of the larger centres have, in fact, something to do with the assessment in those larger centres and not imposed on those smaller communities that may have to carry the same load. So, even though I'm sure the Minister in his comments is thinking he is trying to equalize it and be fair, there can well be some inequities there that have to be watched for.

I note that he said it would be watched and on a trial basis, I'm sure that the people who are paying the taxes, the rate payers, as we will be watching very closely, that it is administered and used in a very fair manner. As far as the system set-up - he talks about the computerization and that's like almost he says it's a major part of the assessment change - it's really putting in place a tool that should help the department.

As far as helping the taxpayer, and helping the ease of the burden of taxation or creating equity, it's really a monitoring system and a tool which should be able to keep them up to date, but as far as any revolting thing dealing with the general public, I don't think it has, you know, a lot of implic ations as far as taking some of the burden off. We'll get into that in a little bit more detail as well. I, as well, think, Mr. Chairman, that the fairness and equi ty, and I'm going to use some fig ures here throughout the province, has to be addressed and addressed immediately.

If the numbers that I have heard are accurate, and I think that they are - I have no reason not to think that they are - 40 percent of the taxes on the Cities of Winnip eg and Brand on, education taxes are borne by those ratepayers on their properties, that compares to something like 70 percent, 65-75 percent of the rural taxpayer of their total tax bill. Now, I stand corrected. If my numbers are wrong, then I would hope the Minister would correct me, but it is my understanding, in a general sense, that's the way it is.

I don't consider that fair and equitable and there is almost a doubling of the amount that the rur al communities are having to pick up as opposed to the larger centres. Now, I'm saying that, I think, I would like a clearer explanation from the Minister as to those kinds of dif ferences. I made reference to the manual. 1320 I want to as well make reference, Mr. Chairman, to the point that the Minister made dealing with the implementation of the Weir Committee Report. I would hope that he takes

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	33-1-35a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	33rd 1st hansardpdf 35a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	37271d25bbeb80bbf667ee5e609b36a1fd4fd104

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