Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 41 (35th Legislature, 4th Session)

35-4-41

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Fourth Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 41 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLII No. 41 -1:30 p.m., WEDNESDAY, APRIL 14,1993 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thlrty .. Fitth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETI, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACOUAY, Louise DERK ACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDW ARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ER NST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATH LIN, Oscar LAURENDE AU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Danis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Well ington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere P-embina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River Rupertsland PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

1647 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, Aprll14, 1993 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PR ESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Walter Wozny, Eleanor Hall, L. Stevenson and others requesting the Family Services minister consider restoring funding for friendship centres in Manitoba. Ms. Ros ann Wow c huk (Swan River): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Mark Richard, Patrick Chartrand, Steven Chartrand and others requesting the Family Services minister consider restoring funding to friendship centres in Manitoba. *** Mr. Doug Martindale (Bu rrows): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Rick Barnard, Cory Barnard, David Berg and others requesting the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restoring what was an excellent program, the student social assistance program . READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Dewar).

It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS the United Nations has declared 1993 the International Year of the Worl d's Indigenous People with the theme, "Indigenous People: a new partnership"; and WHERE AS the provincial government has totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and WHERE AS the provincial government has stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and WHE REAS the elimination of all funding to friendship centres will result in the loss of many jobs as well as the services and programs provided , such as: assistance to the elderly, the homeless, youth programming, the socially disadvantaged, families in crisis, ed ucation , recreation and cultural progr amming, housing relocation, fine options, counselling, court assistance, advocacy; WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legisl ative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Family Services minister to consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba.

Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon, from Churchill High School, thirty Grade 9 students, under the direction of Ms. Terri Gartner. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Education System VIolence Prevention Programs Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier.

All members of this House have unfortunately been attending com munit y meeti ngs, wher e parents, teachers, administrators have been talking about the risi ng violence in schools, both perpetrated by people within those schools and people operating from outside within the school system. We have even raised this question as late as December 9, 1992, in this House, when we asked the government for their action plan dealing with kids across all disciplinary lines in government departments.

The government received a report in June of 1991 , talking about the challenges of kids and the challe nges of children, working across many

16 48 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 19 93 departments in government, Mr. Speaker, and calling on the government to take an action pletn for these children across the many government departments that impact on their lives. This r4�port was prepared by the school trustees, The Teachers' Society, the Association of School Superintendents and the Association of School Business Officials and presented to the government in June of 1091. I would like to ask the Deputy Premier (Mr.

Downey): What specific action has the government taken on the many concerns and recommenda·�ons that are contained within the report that was presented to the government some time ago? Hon. Cl ayton Manness (Acting Minister of Education): Mr. Speaker, I rise as the Ac�ting Minister of Education and, too, want to note this incredible vexing problem and tremendous concern that the government has with respect to the increasing violence within our schools. Mr. Speaker, Manitoba Education and Training has initiated the following measures to assist school divisions to combat the incidence of violence in schools.

I will just introduce three of those items at this point. *

(1335) Mr. Speaker, anger management initiative, I am led to believe at least 80 persons within the school system serve as resource persons in the area of dealing with behaviourally disordered disruptive students. Discussions also will be held with the Departments of Health and Family Services to plan a series of interdepartmental workshops on service networking, collab oration and deliv erJf of programming for children with special ne,�ds.

Lastly, the Curriculum Services Branch is prep�:ITing a violence prevention curriculum support document for the middle years, Grades 5 and 6, which is expected to be available in the spring of 1993. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, this report was preparod in June of 1991-an early warning system on the problems across disciplines of government, an Elarly warning system that I think has been amplified by meetings all members of this Legislature have attended with literally hundreds of parents and teachers prior to the incident being reported this morning. Mr.

Speaker, the government yet has not responded to the bodies that have developed this report. It has not yet responded. In fact, the re•port recommended a response from government by December of 1991. It has not responded a year and a half after the request for a response by the government. At the same time, parents and teachers are calling for greater relationship and partnership between the community and the parents dealing with the kids. As recently as last week, Mr.

Speaker, the Philippine Association called for liaison officers to work with violent kids, violent gangs, nonviolent kids with many challenges in the schools--called on liaison people. Why has the government not publicly responded to these proposals? Why do they not have a public action plan, a public protocol to deal with these issues? Why are we having interdepartmental committees when the whole community, including education professionals and parents, are calling out for a partnership solution, not an interdepartmental comm ittee? Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, we agree with the member.

Certainly, this is a community problem and therefore should be dealt with with the community at large. The Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) informs me that we have 63 Youth Justice Committees across the province that are attempting to deal with this and other problems associated. As I indicated in my previous answer, the three examples that I offered were not exclusive. There are many other actions that are taking place in this area. Sixty-three Behaviour Management and Violence Prevention Programs have been funded in 15 divisions through the Student Support Grant Program.

Twenty-two schools in 1 0 divisions received funds to provide aclditional guidance and counselling services to assist at-risk students. Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, the Child Care and Development Branch has recently developed a leaders manual entitled Working Effectively with Violent and Aggressive Students, and rural and urban school divisions will have had training with this topic complete by April 1993. Mr. Speaker, we have taken into account many of the recommendations of the report. The department has put into place a significant number of action recommendations and has acted.

I, again, agree with the member and Leader of the Opposition, this is a community issue. Indeed obviously, as I am reminded by my colleagues, there

April 14 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 16 49 is some responsibility also of those who are the keepers of the home to try and provide guidan ce to their children and indeed all of the youth who enter our public school system. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, that is why many of the communities are calling for a public action plan, so they can become part of the solution. They do not believe that an interde partmental committee is dealing with the recommendations that this government has had for close to two years now.

Many of the other recommendations in this report go on to cite the challenges of kids who have been involved in the justice system, kids who have been involved in handicap problems and call for a greater sensitivity to a pupil-teacher ratio, which, of course, has been eroded by the funding decisions made by the government and particularly eroded this year with a 1. 2 percent decline in support to our public education system.

I would like to know from the minister: With all the cutbacks that are taking place, including in the public education system, what will be the greater challen ge of these cutbacks on the alr eady stretched resources in our public education system? * (1 340) Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, the member does not quite know the facts, and although he is aware, because we have announced that there has been a reduction with respect to the public school grant, I remind him that the de partment spent $2.9 million on support programs for violence in schools in 19 92-93.

Furthermore, I am reminded by the minister, in discussion with her, that our funding model has been changed this year so that this type of student-and I am talking now about those within Levels II and Ill who sometimes carry more of the violent characteristics, that that level of support will receive signi ficant increase by the changes that have been introduced by the minister with respect to that level of funding. Mr.

Speaker, we have, within the tremendous pressures of funding within government and also within the Department of Education, tried to make the changes necessary to help in a more direct fashion, on a day-to-day basis, within this area. Ford of Canada Employment Losses Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr. Speaker, this government has talked a great deal, in its last couple of budgets and throne speech, about the investment climate in Manitoba and talked about how that was going to solve the problems that our economy faced, no twith sta nding tha t we have lo st 9,000 manufacturing jobs '92 over '91.

Today we learned that Ford of Canada is transferring some 22 jobs from Winnipeg to Edmont on. My question is to the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey): Can the Deputy Premier explain to Manitobans why Manitobans continue to lose jobs to other provinces and why, in this particular instance, the government has not had consultations with Ford of Canada, if they can explain perhaps to the public why Ma nitoba is losin g these job opportunities if our environment has improved so significantly? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr.

Speaker, certainly we are concerned any time there is any job consolidation in other parts of Canada. That is the announcement that was made by Ford this morning in terms of transferring some 22 jobs to a combined facility in Edmonton, resulting in an opportunity for those people currently employed to relocate there or find job relocation. I will deal partly with the

preamble of the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) when he talks about jobs and remind him-t his is August of 19 92- there are 14 ,000 more jobs in Manitoba today, and comparing January to March of 19 93 to January to March of 1992, there are 13 ,000 more ful l-time jobs in Manitoba than there were at that particular point in time. It is interesting, Mr. Speaker, we never get a question when CIBC acquires a company like Comcheq and makes a decision to locate their head office right here in Manitoba and transfer payroll division jobs from Ontario to Manitoba.

I could go on at length if the honourable member is interested. Mr. Storie: Mr. Spe aker, that was a poor, after-the-fact rationalization, as was the minister's defence yesterday, or lack of defence, of the jobs that may be in jeopardy at MCI as a result of corporate dealings in the United States.

1650 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA April 14 , 19 93 Motor Coach Industries Dial Corporation Holdings Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a letter that was tabled on Monda)' with the Ontario Securities Commission, at which tiime it was learned that Dial Corporation is in discussions with MASA, which is the Mexicana d'autobus S.A., among other things, to review the distributie>n of each other's products in North America, techne>logy in for ma ti on and sharing, and fin ally, the manufacturing at MASA- Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable member for Ain Flon, kindly put your que!ltion, please. Mr. Storie: My question to the minister is: Will he now acknowledge that there is something more serious going on behind the Dial Corpora1ion's purchase of a bus manufac turing plant in M4txico than he lets on, and will he tell Manitobans what he is going to do to make sure that this manufactu ring plant stays in the province of Manitoba? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, we know the po��ition of the NDP when it comes to trade issues.

We l<now the position that they want to build the walls: and boundaries around the province of Manitoba. They do not want to break down interprovincial trade barriers. They do not want to have trade wi�h the United State s, and they do not want to have trade with Mexico or any other parts of the world. They want to build walls and boundaries. Dial Corporation, back in January of 1993, ac quir ed a 1 0 percent interest in a bus man ufactu ring operation in Mexico. They havE• a 69 percent interest effectively. They own 1 00 percent of Greyhound, 69 percent interest in Motor Coach Industries here in Manitoba.

Obviously they have a tremendous interest in any operation that the)' own 69 percent of. *

(1345) We had discussions again yesterday with Motor Coach. We have had ongoing discussions with Motor Coach, and they are quite confident in terms of the performance of this facility and th4t job opportunities stayi ng at the current levels and representing other opportunities. The kind of fearmongering that they do when it comes to trade issues does not do the emplc•yees of Motor Coach any good. It does not do the owners of Motor Coach or Dial any good; it does not do any Manitoban any good, and I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that that should come to an end. Mr.

Storie: These vague assurances from the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism do not do anything to inform or make Manitobans feel more secure. My question is: Can the minister explain to this House what this agreement between MASA and Dial means when it says manufactu ring at MASA's Mexico manufacturing facility of the MCI MC-12 Coach, currently manufactured by MCI in Canada, is part of the ongoing discussions and negotiations? What does that mean? Mr. Stefanson: Mr.

Speaker, I have already outlined for the member for Flin Ron exactly the discussions that we have had with Motor Coach Industries, the senior personnel here in Manitoba who are in ongoing contact with officials from Dial and Greyhound in terms of the impact in Manitoba. Obviously senior management in Manitoba is concerned about any ch ange s. Obviously em ployees are. So they are involved in a part of that process, and we have ongoing discussions with them about the opportunities here in Manitoba.

They have received assurances in terms of the opportunities here, and I have already outlined the position of Dial in Mexico. They have a 1 0 percent interest. Obviously they are not going to jeopardize a 69 percent interest in an operation here in Manitoba or in Canada in terms of an additional investment opportunity, but they are, like many operat ions, looking beyond the boundaries of Canada, looking to do business in the United State s, looking to do business in Mexico and other parts of the world, which is what we encourage Manitoba companies to do, because they have the ability to do it.

We have the confidence in them, unlike members of the New- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Storie: So the ministe r can be informed, I will send him a copy, Mr. Speaker- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . The honourable member does not have a point of order.

April 14 , 19 93 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1651 APM Management Consultants Expenses Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, yesterday another 14 0 jobs were lost at St. Boniface Hospital di rectly as a result of funding cuts from the government to St. Boniface and other hospitals.

Since health care funding is at a premium, can the minister advise this House whether the $800,000 in potential expenses for travel costs and hotel. c?sts to be paid to the American consultant by the m1mst�r will come out of the hospitals' existing budget, or will the government provide funds to pay for those costs so th at the hosp ital budget can pay for much-nee ded pati ent care and not for U.S. consultant expenses? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, my honourable friend would know that any potential expenditure that any of our hospitals would undertake would be part of the global funding that is provided by go vernment annually. Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Speaker, the minister did not answer the question. I will phrase it again to him. Will the potential $800,000 in expenses to be paid to his U.S. $3.9-million consultant come out of the existing hospital budgets which have been cut back, or will the government provide funding to those budgets to pay for those expenses so it does not go away from much-needed patient care? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker, lest my honourable friend run away with his rhetoric, let me tell my honourable friend that the two hospitals, Health Sciences Centre and St. Boniface, their boards, their senior management encouraged government to engage APM. It was not an initiative that government in any way, shape or form pushed upon the respective hospital institutions. Mr. Speaker, the reason why the teaching hospitals, St.

Boniface, Health Sciences Centre, their boards, their senior management wished to engage APM was so that they could maintain the level of patient care, the numbers of procedures undertaken by each facility, that caregiving staff could increase the amount of time they spend in providing hands-on patient care to Manitobans who were ill or in admitted for surgery, and have the advantage of significant budget savings. That is why this government agreed to take the monies from Lotteries, the casino, to provide the funds for that contract, Sir. * (1 350) Income Tax Act Dr. Connie Curran Exemption Mr.

Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary is to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) as president of Treasury Board. How can the minister explain to Manitobans, who are facing tax increases as a result of his budget, why he allowed Connie Curran to apply for an exemption under the Income Tax Act to not pay taxes on her $3.9 million when the minister knows full well that the 70-year-old agreement between Canada and U.S. will mean she will likely be exempt under Revenue Canada and likely she will not pay any taxes to Manitoba- Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable member has put his question. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, again, I realize my honourable friend wants to have the issue as being "an Americann and all of the rhetoric that he can attach with his union friends around Americans. Mr. Speaker, why do you think the senior management of St.

Boniface and Health Sciences Centre, the boards of those respective facilities, why do you think that they wished to engage this consulting firm if they did not believe that they could maintain their level of service, increase the amount of hands-on patient care by caregivers and reduce the budget? Now, Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend did not acknowledge that when in government, New Democrats hire American consultants. They hired them to study the home care program. I wonder what has changed- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Provincial Sales Tax Rebate Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. This government has tried to tell Manitobans that their most recent budget is fair to all taxpayers when in fact it is not fair to all taxpayers. Mr. Speaker, this government has opposed the GST, the goods and services tax, seeing that as a consumption tax. It is a regressive tax. Well, the same principles apply to the PST.

1652 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 19 93 I am asking the Minister of Finance today: Is the government considering implementing any sort of rebate so that it will make the PST a less regre�iive tax? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Flnanc:e): Mr. Speaker, we have amongst the richest cn:ldit system and support of the lower-income people who pay the provincial sales tax. It is the cost-of-lhling tax credit and is on the T1 C-1 Manitoba form, in case the member is not aware of that. Business Arrears Listing Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Spea•ter, there is the busin ess sales tax, retail t.ax, outstanding accounts of in excess of $9 million. Yesterday I had attempted to try to get informa1ion in terms of a breakdown, in terms of who is not paying the retail sales tax. Can the Minister of Finance table in this House, and if he is unable to table, give us a reason a!; to why we cannot-the public does not have the right to know, according to this government, who th1tse individuals are who are abusing the tax? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Flnanc:e): Mr. Speaker, this is different.

What the member is sugg esting is that I try and gain access, by extension, to the federal government and they tell me who is in arrears of all their personal income 1ax, and I provide that list to the media. Indeed, if his name were one of them, what he is saying is, share that information publicly. I will not do that; neither will I do that for any business or anybody elso. I cannot believe that the member across the way would sugges t that the Minister of Finance in any jurisdiction should make public all the private affairs that an individual or a corporation or a company has with government.

I find it absolutely unacceptable. Mr. Lamoureux: Well, Mr. Speaker, is the Mini!lter of Finance saying that the public has no righll in knowing who is not paying their taxes? We are talking in excess of $9 million. He is talking about having a fair budget- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. This is not a time for debate. Mr. Lamoureux: My question to the minister, Mr. Speaker, is: Is the Minister of Finance saying 1hat the public has no right to know who is not paying their taxes? Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I am in a state of shock.

What the member is saying is that the pulblic has the right to know of every one of us who does not put a cheque in with the filing of our tax form on April 30. That is exactly what the member is saying. Now, if he is saying that he wants to know the list An Honourable Member: Business, retail. * (1 355) Mr. Manness: Oh, just the business. I see, Mr. Speaker. So there are two classes of filers in this country, one the business people. Indeed their arrears should be made public where individuals should not.

Well, I hate to tell him, I hate to tell people, the reality is that when you pass tax law, it has to be made fair and the same for everybody. With respect to his question, if he wants to know why there is $9 million in arrears, Mr. Speaker, I can assure him that most of that $9 million will come in because I have attached liens to property to make sure that it does come in.

I can also tell him that in case he does not know it, we are in the midst of a recession, and some of the commissioned agents who have collected tax revenues have not followed their agreements and have not remitted their funds to government to the extent that they have used it for their own purposes. The heavy hand of the government will step in and try and collect those monies. Fishing Industry Northern Freight Assistance Program Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas): My question is di rected to the Minister of Natural Resources. Mr.

Speaker, people in northern Manitoba, and particularly those who are employed in resource industries, were hoping for some kind of good news in the budget last week, but unfortunately, all they received was bad news. In fact, most of us here are aware that the poorest of the poor were hurt most by the budget last week. Since fishing is a vital indus try in northern Manitoba, Mr.

Speaker, employing hundreds of northern people, I want to ask the Minister of Natural Resources why he would not press his cabinet colleagues to restore the funding for the Northern Freight Assistance Program that existed to the level it was two years ago when it was first cut by the minister by nearly 50 percent. Hon. Harry Enns (M inister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I have to acknowledge the information that the honourable member for The

April 14 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1653 Pas puts on the table is correct, that we did reduce the Freight Assistance Program, but in applying the remaining $250,000, we prorated it, or proportioned it specifically to impact most directly on the northern fisheries, on the understandable theory that they faced the highest freight costs, and this was assistance on behalf of the taxpayers of the province to help in those fisheries.

I can appreciate that the fisheries industry is not in the healthiest state that it should be, but I can assure you that the southern fishermen, particularly those on Lake Winnipeg who constitute a very substantial number of the commercial fishermen in the province of Manitoba, were less than happy with my favouring northern fishermen with the monies available to me. Mr. Lathlln: Mr.

Speaker, could I ask the same minister to tell this House how he expects those fishermen in the North, particularly those in the isolated communities such as Berens River, Garden Hill, Moose Lake and elsewhere, to ship fish to Winnipeg and be able to compete with fishermen elsewhere? Mr. Enns: Mr. Speaker, commercial fishermen in Manitoba are primary producers, like many other primary producers in the province, be they wheat growers or barley growers or other commodities.

We have different programs from time to time to assist them, support programs, whether it is through the agency of the lending institutions that provide loans to the fishermen, whether it is direct programs that have from time to time provided equipment support to fishermen. Mr. Speaker, you know, I have never made it a secret. I quite frankly welcome the questions directed to me by the honourable member.

I would simply ask that he encourage the official opposition from time to time to remind themselves that there are other vital interests of concern in the province that have a claim on the resources of this province. I get asked a question once or twice during the length of a sessional period, before we get past the impor tant prio ritized social services it ems that- these items, I happen to agree with him. They impact directly on the livelihood of many, many northern producers in this case. Mr. Lathlln: Mr. Speaker, all I can say is, the people living in the North traditionally have been- Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. I would like to remind the honourable member, this is not a time for debate. The honourable member for The Pas, with your question, please. *

(1400) Northern Co-ops Auditing Services Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas): My question to the same minister is: Why did the Minister of Natural Resources agree to cut auditing services for those co-operatives in northern Manitoba when those additional costs of auditing will put greater pressure on many of those co-ops, particularly in the isolated areas? Hon. Harry Enns (Minis ter of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, it is simply a question of applying those resources that are available to my department in the best way possible.

I take this advantage again to the honourable members opposite, those who revel in the cancellation of the Conawapa project, those who show no support for Repap in the North and yet, at the same time, want this gove rnment to pr ovide emp loym ent opportunities in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, in general , let us get with it. Let us understand that wealth has to be created in this province to provide the social services, to provide the jobs that we require in this province. Child Care Centres Space Definition Mr. Doug Martindale (B urrows): Mr.

Speaker, when the Minister of Family Services put out a press relea se on cutbacks to his dep artm ent, he announced a reduction of 400 spaces in child care. Now that letters have gone out to child care directors and home child care providers, we see that the director of the child daycare office is using the word "cases." Since child care spaces are often shared by more than one child and since many children are enrolled part time, since many parents are working part time, I would lik e to ask the minister if he could clarify for the House the distinction between a reduction in 400 spaces and 400 cases. Hon.

Harold Gllle shammer (Minister of Family Services): Well, quite clearly, Mr. Speaker, the department was funding some 1 0,000 subsidized spaces, and we have indicated that there would be a reduction of 400 spaces to 9,600.

1654 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA April 14 , 19 93 Mr. Martindale: The minister did not answer the question. Could he tell us, what is the differE•nce between spaces and this letter which refer:s to cases? Can he tell the House if the current situ�1tion is correct, where two or three children are usin!� up one space, if that is going to change as a resUIIt of talking about cases? Mr. Gllle shammer: Mr.

Spe aker, we have indicated that we are putting a cap on the number of spaces that we fund, that we subsidize, and that we are working with the various daycare centres to see that in the implementation of this, it ha.s a fairness about it as we implement it across the system. Mr. Martindale: Will the minister then inf,::>rm people in the child care community, both boards and directors and parents, as to what the actual situation is, since there is a great deal of confusion thE•re?

People are very concerned that if they lose their space, they are not going to get it back if they cannot find employment in two weeks, because this minister has cut the number of weeks searchi�l for employment from eight weeks to two and, for people going back to university and for people who find part-time jobs, will there be a space available? Mr. Gll leshammer: Mr. Speaker, clearly we have said we are going to limit the subsidized spaces to 9,600.

We know that there may be people conting on stream who would be able to access a subsidized space because they qualify if that space existed, and we are faced with the prospects of waiting lists. WRAP Legislation Government Commitment Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Environment. On October 30, 1989, Michae l Bessey , then-Secretary to the Treasury Board, wrote a memo to the Premier.

I am prepared to table that memo here this a fternoon. [interjection) And I acknowledge that the New Democratic Party has talked about this memo; they talked about it prior to this budget in which we have seen a 56 per<:ent reduction in WRAP funding. In that memo, Mr. Bessey said that "the legislation as drafted" was "for the most part, cosmetic." He went on to say that it was "light weight legislation." Well, Mr. Speaker, we passed that legislation because we took the minister at his word. He 1said it would be a cataly st for action.

So far, we have a file folder full of press releases, action plans by action committees. It is all rlhetoric. The fact is this government has cut waste reduction by 56 percent in this budget. How does that cut square with their commitments, going on three years now, of action and a plan and a strategy that would work for waste reduction in this province? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, contrary to the view of the Liberal critic, people from across the country do still copy our WRAP legislation as a way of achieving a 50 percent reduction of waste in this country. Mr.

Speaker, the critic would Hke to think that the change in the Department of Environment reflects at all on the commitment that we have in terms of getting on with the reduction of waste in this province. He knows that we are about to announce a tire program for removal of tires from waste in this province. We are working with the paper industry to retrieve their waste. By August 1, we will have a decision on the beverage container industry. He had better hope we do not get it all done. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, the great government of tomorrow. Everything is tomorrow.

Everything is coming up roses tomorrow with this government. Mr. Speaker, my supple mentary question for this minister: He talks about overall problems with finances. Why has this branch suffered the single largest cut in his department, a 56 percent reduction in funding, when overall the department had an increase in funding of 4.5 percent in this year's budget? Why have they singled out waste reduction as the least important part of what they do? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, the member looks at the superficial figures in the Department of Environment.

I would invite him to get into the Estimates process, where we will show him that those employees are now doing very much the same work within other sections of the department, and we are in fact accompli shing as much today and will accomplish more tomorrow as we were yesterday. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, that is no comfort. This government, in its entire WRAP history, has put forward one regulation. It is a half-bake� Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I would like to remind the honourable member, this is not a time for debate.

April 14 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1655 Beverage Container Regulation Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Why, after three years, has this government only been able to come forward with one regula tion dealing with beverage conta iner s, which is too thless, which is the industry's preference- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr.

Speaker, one of the strengths of the Department of Environment has been that we have been working with the community, which we are regulating in order to bring into place regulation and programs that are effective and have the co-operation of the public and the regula ted body. I would think that the member should be very cognizant of the fact that the beverage container industry, while they do not like the idea of possible deposits on the 1st of August, they are going to have to be ready for that or an alternate system. Farmers Alfalfa Products Government Assistance Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, Farmers Alfalfa Products in Dauphin has been ope rating since 19 86 as a farmer s-owned co-operative, processing alfalfa into pelle ts for export. This operation fits in precisely, I believe, with the Minister of Agriculture's so-called priorities on agricultural diversification and valu e-added processing, and provides 25 local jobs in the Parkland region, yet they will close down by the end of April, perhaps permanently, if they do not get some support for modernization and conversion of the operation. Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture if he will confirm today that this indeed does fit in with his priorities for diversification in agriculture and, if so, what action this minister has taken to assist the operation in Dauphin to remain open and viable in employing people in this province? * (1 41 0) Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, there is no question that I promote diversification and value-added industries, but the bottom line always is, it has to be economically viable in the marketplace in the long run. That is an ultimate necessity.

I will tell the member that, yes, we understand there are some difficulties there. We had a mission to Japan last year that brought back a lot of information on the markets there, the quality they need. The reliabil ity of that quality is very important for accessing that market. The alfalfa plant at Dauphin is- there are government officials working with the people at the plant, trying to restructure the process so that they can be able to serve the export market in a viable context in the future. Farmers Alfalfa Products Government Assistance Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, the plant has explored all options, and they are now down to a week or two in existence before they are going to have to make a decision with regard to closing down. I want to ask the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism: Since this plant has explored all options and has received not even a ray of hope with regard to financi ng, what action has this Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism taken in response to the letter that he received, dated February 18, from this organ ization sent along with-to himself, also to his colleag ues? Yet, there is no meeting or response.

What action has he taken on that? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, just confirming what the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) has said, officials from our government have been in contact. I would not necessarily agree with the member that there is no ray of hope, but I will certainly follow up on further matters this afternoon. Mr. Plohman: Will the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism get together with his Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) and the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), who also received this request? It is a desperate request.

Time is short. They need to raise a substantial sum of money for conversion. They have raised $80,000 from their shareholders already. They need $200,000. What hope is this minister going to offer? What action is he going to take with his colleagues? Mr. Stefanson: I have already indicated, Mr. Speaker, that we will follow up on the matter. We have been in contact, and as the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Rndl ay) outlined, clearly the first

1656 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 14, 19 93 decision has to be whether or not the operation is economically viable in the long term. Obviously, we will do that entire assessment and make a decision on its merit at that time. Gross Revenue Insurance Plan Information Release Ms. Rosann Wo wchuk (Sw an Ri ver) : Mr. Spea ker, as spring approaches and farm e•rs prepare for spring seeding, they have to be!Jin making plans, but they also have to know what their income levels are going to be.

One of the reasons behind GRIP was so farmers could have some stability and also be able to do some long-range planning. I want to ask the minister why there has been such a delay in getting the information to farmers. They do not know what their coverage is going to be. They cannot do planning for their spring seeding. When are they going to get their information, and why is there such a dela y? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agric ulture): Mr.

Speaker, in case the member has not be•:1n checking her mail, she will find that the interim cheque for GRIP-se cond interim cheques totalling some $67 million are now in the hands of farme•rs as of this week. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. Nonpolitical Statements Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member :lor Niak wa have lea ve to make a nonpol it ical statement? [agreed] Mr. Jack Reimer (Niakwa): Mr. Speaker, I am deli ghted to be able to acknowledge the New Ye•ar celebrated by Manitobans of Laotian, Cambodian, Sri Lankan and Tamil heritage over the next fow days.

As integral members of our community, they take gr eat pride in the continuation and the preservation of their ancient and honourable cultural legacies. We, as Manitobans, cherish the freedom and the opportunity to express and to foster all aspects of our cultural heritag�ur langua ges, customs and trad itions. This freedom takes on a special signi ficance in light of current world events. We are again reminded, other countries do not embrace the concept and ideals of multiculturalism as Canadians do.

Manitobans of every origin firmly believe that openness and acceptance are fundamental to promoting unde rstandi ng, mutual respect and harmony amongst all peoples. Mani toba's multicu lt ural dive rsity is gr eatly enhanced by our Laotian, our Cambodian, our Sri Lankan and our Tamil communities' observances of their respective New Year's celebrations. I ask the members of this House to join with me in extending our best wishes to all Manitobans who proudly proclaim the heritage of Laotia ns, Cambodians, Sri Lankans and Tamil people.

I hope that the New Year brings them health, happiness and prosperity and a continuation of their pride in being part of our rich and diverse multicultural society. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY BUDGET DEBATE (Fifth Day of Debate) Mr. Speaker: On the adjourned debate, the fifth day of debate, on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the Second Opposition (Mrs.

Carstairs) in further amendment thereto, standing in the name of the honourable member for Kildonan, who has 1 0 minutes remaining. Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, I hope that some members opposite, particularly the Min iste r of Health (Mr. Orchard) has had an opportunity to review the comments I made yes ter day when I commenced this de bat e concerning some of the positive suggestions that we have on this side of the House to offer in terms of the health care field. Just in

summary of my comments yesterday, members opposite always claim that the opposition only offers negative criticism, and I say they do not do justice to what we offer. In fact, they play games by not paying attention to the positive aspects, and I hope the minister will list the comments. I do not want to repeat them in my remaining minutes, but I hope he will go over them point by point and read the suggestions we made that would improve the health care system in this province. It is of paramount importance and something that the province requires, and I hope he will take the

April 14 , 19 93 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1657 time and energy to do so with respect to the suggestions we made. Now, where I left off yesterday, Mr. Speaker, was at the point where I indicated that the minister had engaged the services of a U.S.-based consultant, Ms. Connie Curran, an APM associates, company, enterprises, limited, inc., inc., at a cost of $3.9 million to the provincial Treasury, probably the biggest-! do not know, but I would assum�onsulting contract ever entered into in the history of the province.

In addition, there are clause provisions in that particular agreement requiring the hospitals who are contracting agencies to have to pay up to an additional $800,000 in expenses out of their hospital budget, out of the budget that pays for patient care to those particular consultants. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, one of the concerns we have with that consulting contract is that it was not tendered.

In a question asked by members on this side of the House of the minister as to whether there was any tendering process, the minister stated, and I am paraphrasing, but it is something to the effect that: Oh, consulting agencies had an opportunity to participate in this contract. Madam Deputy Speaker, I followed up on that.

I approached a senior person at a large consulting firm-and I will tell you, I cannot reveal the firm's name nor can I reveal that person's name because they fear their contracts or future contracts could be jeopardized if I were to give the name out-but I said to that firm that has done work for government of all politic al st ripes in the past, could you have undertaken the project that Connie Curran has undertaken with Canadian consultants? I was told pointblank, yes, and that was only one firm that I approached. At that point I had no need to approach other firms.

I asked that person at that firm if that firm was asked or in any way contacted about this contract, and we were told pointblank, no. Madam Deputy Speaker, that is what is wrong with the Connie Curran contract. That is what is wrong with this minister's secretive, under-the-table approach to government in health care reform. I indicated in my comments yesterday that they do not pay any attention to what is happening in the public, and they do not listen to the public.

They do not listen to the phone calls; they do not answer the letters; they do not deal with these people, which is why they are forced to come to us. That is symptomatic of the problem out there. They do not talk to anyone else. They contact their agency, and now they are paying $3.9 million to an American consultant, plus $800,000 that could go directly for patient care, to save $45 million to $65 million on the basis of what that consultant says, Madam Deputy Speak er.

That is already after-{interjection] Pardon me, $45 million to $65 million after they have made millions of cuts already to those particular agencies. That is one of the major problems with that particular contract and with that particular agreement. Madam Deputy Speaker, the members make light of the fact that we talk about a U.S. system and about this consultant coming from the U.S., but the culture and the environment this individual comes from is totally different from that which exists in Canada.

Wh ere in the United States the administrative costs of health care are 8.5 percent of budgets, in Canada they are 2.5 percent. The cuts just are not that easy. People are not products on an assembly line for TOM like they are at Ford Motors or at Burger King or at Jack-In-The-Box. pnte�ection] That is right. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) says the problem is we do not even know what our costs are. I agree. One of the major problems throughout the go vernment, be it education, be it health services, is we have no idea whatsoever about the costs. *

(1420) I do not see Connie Curran, in fact, providing us with that information either. I do not even see that in the contract for $3.9 mil lion. It is not even provided for. We do not even have-and that is-1 agree. The minister has focused on one of the major problems. We do not have a proper database. We do not know--{interjection] We do have statistical data here, I agree, but we do not have a database on which costs are based to make our determinations. This consultant will not even do that for us. This consultant comes in with a fancy program. I hope it works. I hope we can save money. I hope we can improve patient quality care. I am very suspect, given the whole meanderings

1658 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA April 14 , 19 93 around this particular contract and all of these negotiations. Madam Deputy Speaker, I turn from this particular issue. Although I could probably spend the rent of my remaining few minutes on it, I want to touch on other areas. I want to touch on the fact that the minister broke his promise stated in the May 1992 action plan where he promised no user fees will be introdu<:ed. Yet, in this budget, we see user fees introdu<:ed. The minister knows, members on that side kno'w it is very much a sore spot.

I explained yesterday why we think it is a problem, why the user fees on hospital supplies, colostomy bags and the like is a serious, serious problem, why I think theywiH r91�ret it and why I think it goes counter to a promise made by the minister when he said they would not introduce user fees. There is no accountability, Madam Deputy Speaker, in the health care reform proce•ss. Yesterday, when we heard 141-plus people were being laid off at St.

Bonifa ce, the minister could not answer whether this was in addition to the 380 1that had alre ady been announced in November or whether this was part of the 380 that were announced in November. We are sti ll not cl4�ar. Although it is my assum ption-! am concluding that it is additional . One of the problems is we have no informatiion, no accounting from that government, no responsibility. The Mini ster of Finance (Mr. Manness) talks abo ut having no data on cost and the basis of decision making at the hospital level.

We do not have it at the governmental level. lnis government will not come forward and tell us how many beds have been cut. They will not ccrne forward and tell us how many jobs have been cut. They will not come forward and tell us what services are in place in the community to replace those job losses, to replace those bed cuts. Of courS3, I know why the latte r, Madam Deputy Speak er, because they have not put in place any programs at the community level to replace the bed cuts and to replace the jobs lost to patients in the hospital setting.

I know that not only from anecdotal information that ha s come our way but from the sta tistical data that has come out. I see that my time is rapidly drawing to a clos1:t. I implore members of the House to review the EI.C. model with respect to health care.

I think ther•:t is some indicative stuff in there that would be very, very helpful to any government undertaking reform, Madam Deputy Speaker-the appointment of a provincial health council; a policy framework that focuses on disability, mentally ill, poverty, children and youth, women and seniors, areas and things that are overlooked by this government; the Ombudsman authority extended to hospital boards and functions; the client-centred services through community health centres; a provincial health council and the setting up of representative bodies in the community that advised the government on the change prior to the change being put in pla ce-overemphasis-prior to the change being put in place, not after the process is in place, something that was sorely lacking and missed by this government.

On that note, Madam Deputy Speak er, I have much to talk about-the co-ordination of approach that our Leader mentioned today that is sorely Jacking in this government, this pigeonholing and department-by-department review of functions and not bringing it tog ether, as well as some of the alternatives that we have suggested. Thank you very much. Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): Madam Deputy Speaker, Jet me at the outset say how pleased and privileged I feel I am to be in the Manitoba Legisla ture at a time when the province is, what I would say, at a re a l crossroads, when the uses of public monies have never in the history, to my knowledge, have had so much attention paid to them in the manner in which they are spent; that never have I been involved or can I recall when the public of the province or in fact of the country have paid so much attention to the political process and th e individuals who are involved, and the mannerisms in which they carry out their public duties.

One can give credit t o, either negatively or positive ly, whichever today' s paper or today's media has portrayed them or him or her as, but it is largely to do with the capabilities of the media and the modern technology, which in fact we all have available to us and are a vailable to the public at large. So I say, for democracy, it is extremely, extremely important. We, Madam Deputy Speaker, should thank ourselves that we do in fact have such a system available to us.

April 14, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 1659 I want to, as well , at the outset-and I know the Minister of Rnance (Mr. Manness) in his opening of the Budget Address, and I say, as well, I am extremely pleased to have been in cabinet and to be involved with a government that has tabled for the sixth year in a row a budget of this kind, of this time in our provincial history, a document that expresses pretty clearly a fair and balanced approach to the expenditures of what are scarce taxpayers' resources. I say how pleased and proud I am to stand with our Premier (Mr.

Film on) and with our Minister of Finance, our government, in sup porting this year's budget. The signific ance of a budget to the province and to the country, Madam Dep uty Speaker, is something that was brought to me as a very young person in growing up. I had a very close association with my grandfather on my mother's side whom I had the privilege to spend a lot of time with, as he spent considerable years living in our home and living with us, as my sisters and brother grew up in the farm community.

As a young person, one could quite often distract, or try to, or in fact-not consciously, but would interfere with his listening to what was going on in current affairs on the radio. That was prior to television. He, particularly at a time of the year when the budget was being brought down either for the province or the country, was always glued to the radio. Of course, if there was an annoyance or some noise from some of the grandchildren, it was very disturbing to him.

He would immediately bring them to attention and sometimes used very persuasive disciplinary measures which got your attention which, by the way, I do not think in any way deterred from or hurt the individuals that the application of such measures were applied to, but it was pretty effective and I thank him for that. More importantly, what I thank him for was the attention that he brought to me of how important a budget for a province or a country really was.

It is a matter of telling the people of the province whose money is being spent, the policy directions that the government or the province are taking, extremely important in a free and democratic society. That is why at the outset I express very, very clearly how important it is that the message be communicated to the public at large and everyone understand what is happening. If we do not, we take our system for granted and we drift and we drift and we drift. Quite frankly, we end up in a position where it can, in fact, be out of control. People blame the system and then challenge the system.

You have confrontation. You have all those kinds of undesirable things taking place in a society which none of us want. So for that I say thanks, and I very much appreciate it, the upbringing that I have had and the attention that was brought to me and the importance of it. I, as well, feel very honoured, Madam Deputy Speaker, to be able to serve with a government, with a group of women and men of such integrity and determination to carry out an extremely difficult task in extremely difficult times.

I, to a person, believe that every man and woman in this Legislature believe they have a responsible role to carry out and are sincerely trying to do so. * (1 430) I find it unfortunate-! am not going to name any members or anyone, because I believe it is important not to do that, but I hope we do not see too many activities like those which took place in Question Period a few days ago when there was in fact reference made to the children of a member who is trying to, in her best way, carry out a job on behalf of the people of Manitoba. That I do not believe has a place in this Chamber.

I do not believe that personal individual attacks of integrity have a place in this Chamber. I do not believe it serves the process of debate and/or trying to make sure that we maximize our abilities as individuals to put our positions forward. It in no way, shape or form adds to the integrity, to the process.

Let me specifically say, Madam Deputy Speaker, how proud and privileged I feel I am to serve with a cabinet and a caucus group of people who have put forward one of the toughest documents that this province will have seen in some 15 to 16 years that I have served in the Legislature, tough because it is never easy to make. The integrity of individuals who put forward such a document is always an important part of it.

I believe that the Treasury Board of this government, that the cabinet of this government and the caucus of this government, in the acceptance of the decisions made and the process which they have gone through is one that not many people in today's society would want to have to deal with.

16 60 LE GI SlATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA April 14, 19 93 It is always popular when you are handing out or giving money to individuals or to groups in soc:iety out of the Treasury of any government. You are always extremely popular but when the time has come-and it has come, because we have seen it not only in Manitoba but we have seen it nationally,, we have seen it internationally-when the taxpaJrers have reached their capability, maximized tiheir capability to contribute to the global pot which WI� all depend on to provide the services, it is extremely imp ortant we understand that.

It is extremely important that we all understand that there arE' no simple solutions to the dilemma that the country, the provinces and, in fact, the world has found itse�f in. You have three basic options when you are developing a budget. You can take the route which historically in the past quite a few years has b4�en the route of least resistance. We have see1n it happen federally under the Pierre Elliott Tru��au government. We have seen it happen under many other governments throughout the country wher'a in fact it was easier to raise taxes and continuE' to spend money.

That was always and is always the route of least resistance. You have the ability through law to take money from those people who are working in your society to pay for the servi1::es that are deemed essential by those people who are elected politically. That has got us into, Madam Deputy Speaker, considerable amount of troublE· as a competitive situation throughout the world and we have now to face that issue.

The other option which has been equally as ea.sy, but delaying the pain, has been that of the increase of deficit spending, that you spend today to tax tomorrow on those people who are generating the wealth that produces the programs which we all depend on.

We either have the taxation of today which you can do; you can deficit spend and continue to provide the services, or, Madam Deputy Speaker, the path which we have taken and many other governments are taking-in fact, I do not know a jurisdiction anywhere that has not had to comE• to grips and they are dealing with that third optiorH:Lnd that is the one of reducing the spending for the people of the province of Manitoba and in fact for the country.

I take my hat off to those people, whatever political stripe, however it has had to come abe�ut, that they have come to grips with that because I think collectively, and I say this genuinely, I have not heard the members opposite, although we accuse them of saying you want to tax greater or you want a greater deficit, I do not think genuinely anyone wants to continue to see the first two options followed.

H they do, it is in the Budget Debate that they should stand in their places and honestly say, I mean honestly say, you should not have cut this program, but you should have in fact raised these taxes to pay for it, or you should Increase the deficit. Well, there is big debate over the deficit. The members opposite say there was something about our reporting of a deficit which was somewhat greater than we had anticipated, but It was not, Madam Deputy Speaker, on the expenditure side that caused the problem. It was on the revenue side, which we had absolutely no control over.

So what we are doing, and have done, is reported the facts as they are there for the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness). Unfortunate as it is, we truly Intended to keep our spending down and to come closer to balancing our budget. It was not doable so we passed that stage. Now we have had to face further expenditure reductions which will give us over a period of time a balanced bud get, which I have not heard anyone disagree with. I have not heard one person in this Legislature disagree with a balanced budget.

Again, if they do, let them stand in their place and tell us that they do disagree with a balanced budget, but it has to come about because if we do not make that decision and drive to that goal then there are those who will drive us to that goal whether we like it or not. So there are three points that have to be made. You can take the decision to increase taxes, which is not in the cards. In fact, I remind members again-and I do want to ack nowledge the media because it is not always that we feel we get fair reporting, as the members opposite feel that they do not always get fair reporting.

I do happen to point out, and I think it is noteworthy at this time, that the approach that the Progressive Conservative Party and the government of Gary Film on, the honourable Premier of this province and his caucus have taken on is the right approach. I say that genuinely, and I comment on the media that have reported it. When you go back to the Free Press, I believe it was March 1 , when it says, Tax breaks to fatten wallets, what that is saying-not us saying it, not anybody who is of political nature. It is what the

April 14, 19 93 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 16 61 Conference Board of Canada said, that with the measures that Manitoba government has taken, there will be-those were their words-an additional $600 mi llion. Think of it. Think of $600 million in the pockets of the Manitoba taxpayers to spend on a daily basis. [interjection] Well, the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) shouts across the floor, why are we running deficits.

Why did they run deficits? [interjection] Madam Deputy Speaker, because it is not our intention and was not our intention to run deficits, butthe difference in the former administration, it was their intention to run deficits. It never was anything but their intention to run deficits. An Honourable Member: So last year's was just an accident, and this year's is just another accident? Mr. Downey: Unfortunately, I have explained precisely why our deficit was higher than what it was projected, because of the revenue side. Now, the member again-and I want to challenge the member for Flin Flon (Mr.

Storie) who is now critical of last year's deficit. How can he criticize last year's deficit? What would he have cut last year from the spending of the province? Would he have reduced Family Services? Would he have reduced health care funding? Would he have reduced Education? [interjection] Okay. He said from his seat that he would have cut Educ ati on. He said he would have cut Education. Now at least he is coming forward fairly and honestly saying he would have cut Education. * (1 440) Point of Order Mr.

Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order, the member for Arthur is misusing something I said from my seat. I said that the 15 0-percent increase to private schools in the province cannot be justified. Yes, I would have certainly saved the province some money by not impl ementing a 15 0-percent increase in private school funding. Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Flin Flon does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts. * * * Mr. Downey: I attempt, Madam Deputy Speaker, to speak the truth and speak it from the heart.

I would hope he would not question that. [interjection) Okay, thank you. He is now onside again. Madam Deputy Speaker, so we have said higher taxes are not the answer. Higher deficits are not the answer. Reduced spending-at least, I would ask my colleagues in opposition to agree that reduced spending is the direction that this province and this country has to go. Can I get some indication in the speeches that they are goi ng to give that this is in fact an acceptable principle? If it is not, please say so. Then we know and the public know what some alternatives are. But they have not, you see.

That is part of the probl em. They are playing this-[interjection] Well, butthat basic principle, does she agree with the basic principle of reducing spending, rather than the first two options of tax increases and larger deficits? An Honourable Member: You never mentioned increasing revenue, Jim . Mr. Downey: Well, the revenue side of it comes from taxes. The revenues come from taxes. Anyway, that is a point that I think at least our society has to agree on, and I think it has.

I think right from the President of the United States to the Prime Minister of Canada who, by the way, I predicted in one of the speeches about a year or two years ago that it would be the next government of Canada, would be the Progressive Conservative Party and it would be led by the current Prime Minister-well, I am wrong one out of two. I would have hoped that it would have been the current Prime Minister. It is not going to be, but at least he has put the party in a position where it can win and has to win the next federal election, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Can I further go on by saying as it relates to cabinet-[interjection]lt might be worthwhile, eh? All I am doing is bringing to the mem bers' attention the fact that I predicted some two years what would happen, and I think in fact that is one prediction that hopefully will come about. Let me fur ther add tha t we have a very dedicated-and I say this particularly for the people that I have working for the departments that I am responsible for, a dedication of the Civil Service that cannot be questioned. I honestly believe the majority of the employees of government are serious and genuinely interested

16 62 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA April14 , 1993 in what we are doing. [interjection] The membe1r fo r Crescentwood (Ms. Gray) says that it was big ot me to say that. Well, I do not consider it anything but the way I feel, that I honestly believe the employees of government are trying to make it work. They are trying to ma i ntain job security. They ar e trying-{interjection] Well, the member for Ain Flon (Mr. Storie) refers to political hacks. I do not consider the people who work for me, who work for him and work for the former government, as polh:ical hacks. I call them professional civil servants.

Yes, there are people of different political persuasions who work for all kinds of governments, and I do not consider them poli tical hack�s. I consider them havi ng the righ t to exprt�ss themselves politically as they so feel, not political hacks and degrading them in that kind of a mam1er. I say they are genuinely hard-wor king people who wantto make this thing happen. They are not ha 1i>PY about paying greater taxe s. In fact, I think they want to be some of the ones who have the $600 million in tax savings in their pockets, because that is the problem.

What governments continue to do is take off the top of everybody's pay cheque without their control, without their say, the cost of running governmt:tnt. Management has the same deductions taken off as everyone else has. It is the government that takes the cheque and takes tha t amount

t) ff . Managem ent, whatever level you are in-government takes that money. It is our objective to take less from that line, not more, but to take less. I think, from the case I am laying before this Legislature, that it is in ·fact happening. I am proud and pleased to be part ,of a government that is seeing the kind of activiti es, the responses and the results that we are getting. But I do say genuinely that those people who wor�: for government I take my hat off to because they have to deliver some tough and difficult programs and messages.

Let me proceed, Madam Deputy Speak er, to make a couple of other points that I think are important. When we deal with public issues anel we have had to make the tough decisions that I have referred to for agencies and/or those individuals depending on government for funding, I think the application of the policies of this government anain halle been fair and equitabl e. Let me use the example, and I again comment about the educational system in this province.

I think it is important when the funding for our school divisions are carried forward from the provincial budget, that what we have had to do as people elected and responsible for the global tax monies within our jurisdiction , that the same kinds of principles are carried out within those jurisdictions which we fund. Yes, there is local autonomy.

Yes, there are local school divisions that are elected to give the kind of direction, the kinds of programs and policies that reflect those individual communities, but in the global sense, because the monies which we give them we are held responsible for, I think in the same context their admi nistration of their local authorities should in fact reflect what we have had to reflect in the larger picture. That is where I have some difficu lty with the members opposite in not coming forward and speaking clearly as to where they stand.

Exam ple: We have said we would expect the school divisions of this province to carry out the same kind of opportunity, difficult as it may be, that if you are going to, in some way, reduce the costs of education to the taxpaye rs, that there is an enabling legislation and an ability to do so, to take the professional development days of school teachers in this province and not pay for them-not harsh, not extremely cruel, but a fair application of a policy for the general purposes of solving the problem.

You know, l, for some reason, am missing a point, but I noticed--1 think it was the Leader of the second opposition party last week or someone from her party, when a comment was made that for some reason, the application of more money to education automatically means a better education, I think she took exception when our Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) made a comment along that line. Nobody has yet convinced me that automatically more money going to edu cation or more money automatical ly going to health care service at the end of it equals better service or better education.

An Hono urable Member: Does that apply to private schools too ? Mr. Dow ney: Th at applies in anyth ing. pnte�ection] I can defend it in Antler River, or I can defend it anywhere, that more money does not equal aut omatically a better education, because here is where 80 percent of the money goes in

April 14, 19 93 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 16 63 education-it goes to pay salaries and the member knows that. Eighty percent of the money goes to pay salaries, so if you increase the money to the educational system, then you are increasing the salaries of individuals. Are they working longer days to teach the children that much longer? Are they giving them more courses in schools? Are they extending the school day or the school week? That does not automatically come. What the member is trying to say is more money equals better education and that is not true.

It is how the money is channelled, spent and targeted and the policies that are established as it is within any other government forum. It is how you spend it and the integrity and the direction that the money is given more than it is the quantity. * (1 450) I want to deal with another area. I know that members opposite quite frankly have not been able to give us any alternatives, and that is being noted in the public.

What is as well being noted in the public is the last week since we have tabled the budget which, by the way, I am pretty pleased with and I say that the people of the constituency which I represent are indicating as well that they are extremely pleased with it. It is, in today's terms, a conservative budget. What I have not seen are the alternative decisions that the opposition members would make.

In fact, we have had over a week of Question Period and debate and I have yet to pick a speech or a question in Question Period that I could say, this really shows the integrity of the opposition and the sincerity of the opposition, in a global sense, dealing with this document. I am sorry one of the leadership candidates for the Liberal Party has not risen to what I would consider the challenge that the current Leader who is stepping down has taken upon herself to, in a global way, give the people of Manitoba some alternatives. Quite frankly, that is his challenge.

That is the challenge for the Liberal Party today, to pick up. I give credit where credit is due. [interjection] No, as an indi vidual. She came forward as an individual. She built to a maximum of some 21 seats, and that was no easy task, because what was there I believe was some global leadership and some alternatives. That is no longer with the Liberal Party, I am sorry to say. It is the current challenge. The New Democratic Party I guess have not got a central focus.

They really have lost-what I would have thought they would have really shone on was an opportunity to show how they would deal with the current financial issues of the province. They quite frankly have not given the people of Manitoba a clear alternative or a clear alternate agenda which would give anyone any comfort as to where they would take this province in a fiscal sense and an expenditure sense into the future.

They line up with all the groups that are prepared to come to the steps of the Legislature and say, we are with you, we would not cut that, we would not reduce any spending, we would not bring in line or reduce some of the advocacy funding, we stand shoulder to shoulder with them. Well, what is the alternative has to come forward, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I am sorry, it just is not there. Could you give me, Madam Deputy Speaker, an indication of how much time I have left? Ma dam Deputy Speaker: The honou rable member has 11 minutes remaining. Mr. Downey: Eleven as in one, one?

Madam Deputy Speaker: That is correct. Mr. Downey: Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker, I have tried today to not come across as ex tremely nega tive in my comments. I have tried to be constructive. I have attempted to point out how important it is as elected members of not only this Assembly but ofthe House of Commons and, speaking of the House of Commons, I know we have several members in this Chamber who feel they would be able to serve their constituents better in a larger arena for which it is extremely important that people are prepared to put their names forward.

At the same time, I should commen t that I am extre mely proud as a Progressive Conservative-and I think I should say this at this time-of the quality of people who have put their names forward to take on the leadership of the Government of Canada and, hopefully, the next elected government that will lead this country into the next four years. It is extremely important that people come forward and do that, because, as I said at the outset of my speech, there has never been a time in our history

16 64 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA April 14 , 1993 that people have come under such scrutiny as tlhey come under today in their activities, personally, as it comes to the spending of the funds that taxpayers putforward. There will never be a time probably that there is such scrutiny and such im portance pla�::ed on the activities of individuals and how they perform in a public manner. Probably it is the toughest time ever to be in public life.

I say that from my own experience as to the la st 16 years and the im portance of how we all havo to be not only seen to be doing the right thing but doing the right thing. That is extremely im portant. An area which I want to touch on because it is im portant to the future of the province as well is some of the positive growth policies that have bE1en established and some of the things that we have done.

Probably the most outstanding is the fact that our policies will leave $600 million in the pocketn of taxpayers by the year 19 94-probably the biggest single impa ct that the province will see on the expenditure side. Let me deal with some Crown corporation issues which I think are im porta nt, as I have had the privilege of being responsible for several Crown corporations.

I am pleased, Madam Deputy Speak er, that I had the responsibil ity to be responsible for ManOil, not so happy that ManOil was established initially becaus e it cost the taxpay ers, under the former adminis tration, some $1 6 million, but I am pleased that we were ablet to divest of the Man itoba Oil and Gas Corporation to a priva'g company, which has turned that company into a major economic generator and job creator for the province, and it is a Manitoba company. I am extremely pleased and proud of the fact that we have the McKenzie Seeds organizati on.

I g1ive full credit to the management, to the the board of directors and to the employees of that company for making two years in a row in excess o·f a million-dollar, bottom-line profit for the Provincet of Manitoba. Projections are that it should even grow from that particular point. Let me as well say that I am pleased with the performance and the ac tivities of the Manitoba Mineral Resources corporati on, which has worlted hard to try and encourage and foster in the development of new mining activities and mine operations in Manitoba.

The Communi ties Economic Development Fund, I say to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, is a tool to assist northern and native remote commu nities in the financing and activities that are related to daily operations and lives. It is, in fact, operating and performing in as difficult a situation as it is, but it is doing a good job for the people of northern Manitoba and for the mandate which it has. I am pleased with those, Madam Deputy Speaker, and the speed at which we were able to put them through comm ittee without a lot of questions and a lot of difficulty.

Let me say as well that I do not think it was wrong public policy when the governm ent moved to divest itself of Channel Area Loggers and Moose Lake Logg ers. It turned over to those communities the opportunity to dir ect their own self-operated corporations without governmen t having to be involved in their daily lives and the operations. Time will tell, but, at this point, Madam Deputy Speaker, I am satisfied, as the min ister who is charged with the responsibility, that it has been the right thing to do. I am extremely pleased that I have been given the mandate and the support of our Premier (Mr.

Almon) and my colleagues to proceed with the settlement of some of our Northern Rood outstanding flood issues. I am pleased that the Split Lake communi ty are now off and running without having to continue to worry and haggle over the settlement of that outstanding issue. That to me is a major accomplishment. So when the members from the northern portion of this province stand and say we have not done anything for the North, in fairness I would like them to recognize that there has been some things done.

We are very close to completing-hopefully, the communi ty will accept it in Nelson Hou se-a settlement of the same agreement. York Landing have indicated their desire to end the long-term outstanding issues, and we have had indications from the other communi ties that they would like to proceed. The Grand Rapids forebay issues which have been resolved by this government were no small tas k, . were major, major accomplishments in my mind, not me as the minister, but the direction given by the Premier (Mr. Almon) and caucus and cabinet. There have been major a ccom plishments.

I ask members to be fair in their criticisms when we go forward with these kinds of policies. I am extremely pleased that we have been able to start the process for the introduction of overland

April 14 , 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 16 65 Hydro service for the nine comm unities in the northeast corner of the province that have been denied the same kinds of services that you and I have enjoyed, Madam Deputy Speaker, in southern Manitoba. It is not only right, it has to be done so those individuals can enjoy the same kinds of services that we enjoy. Those are the kinds of things that I ask to be judged on. I want to talk, and I will conclude my remarks, on Hydro because it is extremely important that I do so.

Hydro has been a major generator of wealth activity for the economy of Manitoba in several fronts. I want to point out that it was revolutionary, and I mean revolutionary for the economy of Manitoba, when D. L. Campbell spearheaded and led the rural electrification program in this country.

That was monumental in the economic course that gave this province the ability to bring it forward, to produce the kind of agricultur e products that made us the province that we are in the sense in which we are. * (1 500} I believe, and I say this without political tarnish or without political credit to anyone, that the further development of the Nelson River by the Duff Roblin government was the right thing to do.

The timing may have been questionable, but I do not disagree with the initiative that was carried out by the former administration in the building of the Limestone generating station and the jobs and the economic events that went with it. Madam Deputy Speaker, I fully supported the development of the Conawapa project and the sale to Ontario. Howe ver, let us be hones t and straightforward. [interjection] Yes, the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) shouts across to me that I am responsible for Hydro not proceeding and going ahead.

What I have difficulty with is the memb ers opposite not being honest with the people of Manitoba, putting their position forward as to whether they wanted Conawapa and the sale or whether they did not. I can go through litanies of comments and speeches made by the members opposite where they in fact wanted to take credit initially for it. Then they were opposed to it. Then they were for it. [interjection] Well, the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) should in fact then stand in his place and put his position forward.

But it was the government-! am sorry, it was the corporation of Ontario Hydro that came forward and said they wanted the delay, and it was Manitoba Hydro who said, these are the conditions if you delay that you have to meet. They said they would not meet those conditions and, in fact, cancelled out of the deal. I had no choice. It was not the government's choice. It was Ontario Hydro and Manitoba Hydro that carried out that particular decision.

Something equally as important that has to be debated in this Legislature, as does the Crow rate have to be debated, is it in the best interests of Manitoba and Manitoba Hydro to continue to bill and promote the movement of hydroelectric power out of this province to create jobs in other jurisdictions? I say that we have to put every effort forward, and will be, to develop employment and jobs in Manitoba through the use of Manitoba Hydro. As D.L.

Campbell put in rural electrification, as the further development took place on the Nelson River for job creation and training for our northern and native people, it is important that we continue to develop our electric source using it to generate jobs and economic activities in Manitoba. One of the things that Manitoba Hydro has done to do that is to keep the lowest costs for hydro rates in North America right here in Manitoba.

They have frozen the hydro rates for this year, Madam Deputy Speaker, something that the members opposite, in their wisdom, should stand in their place and say thank you to Manitoba Hydro for the work that they have done. The projections are that Hydro has been our big economic generator, it will be our big economic generator, and I am pleased to be the minister responsible for it. I conclude my remarks by saying, we live in a global economy, we have to position ourselves to compete in that global economy, and it is this government that will put us in the right economic position to do that.

I am proud to be a member of the Legislature in this government that will do it, Madam Deputy Speaker. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Deputy Speaker, like everyone inside this Chamber, I too am concerned about the future of educati on, training, retraining, health care and the other issues that are out there. I take a look at the budget that the government has brought forward. They talk a lot about fairness. They talk a lot about the deficit

16 66 LEG ISlATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA April 14 , 1993 and the reason why they are doing what it is that they are doing is based on deficit control. Well, I was wanting to start off by talking about the deficit and go through what I believe gove rnment should be doing in order to ensure that we have the services that we have today for tomorrow. I will acknowledge that the deficit itself is in fact a problem. You know, it was not that long ago when Maclean's had an

article that kind of caught my ��ye when it talked about awash in red ink. In 1this particular

article it talked about the gover nment debt as a percentage of gross provincial product. You have from coast to coast a percentage of debt which will have to be paid at some point in time, the lowest being B.C. at 14 percent to a high of Newfoundland at 49, and Manitoba based at 22, even with ·the Province of Ontario. I personally believe, very much so, in Keynesian theory.

I had the opportunity to take economia: in the two short years that I was at university, and I took a look at the Keynesians' approach to deficit and the im pact or the role that go vernment has to play in society, in the economy and so forth.

You know, Keynesian theory would say that during good times, governme nts should withh1>ld spending, that that migh t be the opportunity to be able to put aside som e of those priorities in terms of potential projects that could be delayed, and that during bad times, during recessions, gov ernmont should be spending, Madam Deputy Speaker, to try to create some activity, economic activity. I believe that all poli tical

part ies, different levels of gov ernment, did not necessarily do what was in the best interest at the time of all of us, not only in the province of Manitoba, but across Canada. When the revenues were coming in, in parti cular in the '70s and early '80s, mid- '80s, act ua lly throughout the '80s, when we saw revenues coming in, there were gove rnments that continued to spend money, of all political stripes, so that now we are in a situation where we see that the deficit itself has to be addressed. It is one of the fastest gro wing departments, not only in the Province of Manitoba, hut in all provinces.

The go vernment itself, the prov incial gove rnment here, talks a very good line. They talk in terms of-well, last year, they estimat,�d the deficit to be at $330 mimon. That was tlhe projection. The actual was $762 million. Madam Deputy Speaker, I recall when the government brought in its first budget, when the�y created the Fiscal Stabilization Fund.

That was at a time in which the government could have in fact had a surplus budget, but chose to borrow the money in order to manipula te the deficit, the annual deficit of future gove rnments, in parti cular, future Conservative governments, in a relatively short time period. When the Fiscal Stabilization Fund was first introduced, these were the type of comments that I made at that time. Madam De puty Speaker, I think that the gove rnment, in fairness, has to be more open with the public and this Cha mber. For the last 40 min utes, I listened to the Deputy Premier (Mr.

Downey) talk about the responsibil ity of the opposition parties in providing that alternative. One detects from what he is saying that he is disappointed in the opposition parties. Well, I, too, am disappointed-in the gov ernment.

I feel that the gove rnment should be more open in terms of what is actually going on, but ra ther we see a sleight of hand here and a sleight of hand there, whether it is the Fiscal Stabilization Fund, whether it is forecasts that make them look better at the time the budget is being presented or not. * (1 51 0) The current deficit fight, in part, is going to be taken in from the VL T revenues. I have been watching the whole VL T issue and commenting on it when I had the opportunity to.

The government has demonstrated very clearly that they do what they feel is in the best interest of the gov ernment and not in what is in the best interest ofthis particular Chamber or the people of Manitoba. The government did make a commi tment. The commitment was to take the VL T revenues, and put them into rural Manitoba. They withdrew that commitment and in this budget, we see 65 percent of all the VL T revenues going towards deficit finance. Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, why is it that they decide to use the VL T revenues now towards deficit financing?

The reason why they are tying it into deficit financing now is that it does not matter how much money is generated through the VL Ts, there is always going to be enough of a deficit in order to take care of those particular revenues. One has to ask the question why they do that, Madam Deputy Speaker. They do that because they want to mislead Manitobans with respect to the whole issue of gambling. The gambling has been an issue which this government has never really

April 14 , 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 16 67 addressed inside this Chamber, because they continuously tie it in-1 personally think it is sad to see a government have to rely on VL T revenues in order to now, they say, reduce the deficit. Madam Deputy Speaker, the VL T revenues, for all intents and purposes, was never really generated to help the hospitals or to help rural Manitoba or to fight the deficit. It was there to generate more revenue, nothing more than that. Now they have flagged something which they can tag it on to.

The government always asks for answers, that they want to know in terms of, well, what would we do if we were in government; it is easy to criticize. I would suggest, in particular to the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey), that if he listened to what was being asked during Question Period, if he would listen to some of the speeches that are in fact being given inside this Chamber, he would find that there are a number of ideas that are coming from the opposition benches. There are lots of buzzwords that the government likes to use. They talk about TOM or Total Quality Management or spending smarter.

The buzzwords are all fine and wonderful but, unless we start addressing some of these issues that are out there that would in fact make a difference-and it does not have to be spend, spend, spend, to the minister. I am sure if she is patient she will find out a number of ideas that I will be pointing out. I want to comment with respect to the taxation, because it is a question which I had asked today. There are different types of taxes, as we all know, pr ogressive to regr es sive tax pol icies. A progressive tax would be a personal income tax. A regressive tax would be a consum ption tax.

Ma dam Depu ty Sp eaker, how does this gove rnm ent rela te to regress ive versus progressive? Is this a fair budget in that context? If we take a look in terms of what it is they have done, the government is quite pleased to stand and say for five or six consecutive budgets now, we have not increased personal income tax. That might be the case, but you have offloaded taxes to municipalities, to school boards which rely on property tax, which is not a progressive tax. It is not based on ability to pay.

If we take a look at the specific question I asked today, the government opposed the GST, at least in part, I believe, because they said it was a regressive tax. The PST is just as regressive. If you look at what the federal Tories did, at least they came up with a system to make the GST that much more of a fairer tax. What the government has done with the PST is to expand it, to broaden it, and that is not a progressive tax. It is, in fact, an unfair tax.

At least they could have had the integrity, as a government, when they stand and say that it is a fair tax, to have some sort of a rebate or to ensure that those who do not have the same ability, because it is a consumption tax, are given some consideration. Madam Deputy Speaker, that has not been done. We have seen, in terms of gas, the gas tax. Ac tually I was fairly im pre ssed when the government came up with the gasohol idea. I think it is a good idea. In fact, it is one of the ideas that I had mentioned at the party's annual general meeting.

If government wants to promote from within, gasohol is an excellent idea, and if we follow it through-you know, it was indicated to me that if the state of California went to gasohol, 20 percent of the production of the prairie wheat would have a market. We produce gasohol in the province of Manitoba, so I think there is some merit when we hear an initiative that the government has adopted. I give credit for the government, but these are ideas that are out there if you check with people. This is how we incorporated it into the statements that were being made from our camp at the end of the general meeting.

I want to talk a bit about the property tax because again if you look at regressive versus progressive, you find that the government is once again favouring the regressive tax over the progressive tax. Again, Madam Deputy Speaker, I find that is unfortunate. We are again talking about individuals that are being treated not according to ability to pay. I find that is somewhat unfortunate. I find a few days back I had asked a question about the property tax. Something that this government, the provincial government, can only address. I represent a riding which happens to be in Winnipeg School Division No. 1.

If the government was wanting to do something positive, I highly recommend that they listen not to what I am saying, but I believe to what a majority of Manitobans are saying. That is that you have to look at the property tax, and there is a way in which this provincial government can restructure it in such a way that we are paying a fairer tax.

16 68 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA April 14 , 1993 What I am referring to is the school tax portion on the property tax bill. I use the example of a $70,000 home. If you happen to live in Winnipeg Sch4Xll Division No. 1, in a $70,000 home, your tax is $1,0 34.52 from what I understand. In Winnipeg school division No. 2, the same valued home at $70,000 is $756.19 . Madam Deputy Speaker, if you look at the demographics, in parti cular in the city of Winnip4�g. you would find that the average income is mliiCh lower in Winnipeg School Division No. 1 than it i!: in Winnipeg school division No. 2.

This is not an issue that the school trustees can deal with. This is only an issue which this provincial Chamber can d:�al with, and this gove rnment is refusing to deal with that issue. What they are doing is th4:1y are even making it worse. From a $350 credit, they are now saying it is going to be a $250 credit. Again, no basis on ability to pay. • (1 520) This gove rnment argues that their budget is fair. When you deal, Madam Deputy Speaker, with the taxation policies of this gove rnment, it is not f•air.

When it comes to dealing with issues that collJid make the taxation fairer, what is this gov ernm1:�nt doing? It is doing nothing. Today I asked a question about the collection of the business retail sales tax that is left outstandk1g, in excess of $9 million-and a note to the member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), I understood wlhat the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) said . I do not believe that the Minister of Finance gave justicE' to the question because if you listen to what 'the Minister of Finance said, he contradicted himself. He said, why, we cannot make this information public.

Would you make it public? Then h4:l says we are going to push to collect those taxes. We are going to put a lien on those businesses. The Minister of Finance should know if you put a lien it becomes public, so if it is a question that it is public informati on, why does this go vernment refuse to let members, the public, who have a right to kn'ow, why do they refuse not to allow that to occur, Madam Deputy Speaker? The Min ister of Fi nanc e understood the question, he just refused to answer it.

I am disappoi nted that he does not feel lthat Mani tobans have th4:1 right to know in terms of these busi nesses that are not paying, remitting the provincial sales tax. As I started at the beginning of my speech, Madam Deputy Speaker, I talked about education and the preservation of education. I wanted to start off in terms of dealing with some of these reform issues by talking a!Xlut education, because I believe that the way Manitoba deals with education and training and retraining at our post-secondar y institutions will determine the future fate of our province for the turn of h century.

If we have-or I should not say if-we have in excess of 350 school trustees scattered throughout the province. We have some sch4ool trustees who are appointed from bureauc rats because th4:1re is no interest to fill some of th4:1se positions. In the city of Winnipeg alone we have 11 school divisions, when you have Winnipeg No. 1 again, 33,000 students; Norwood, 1 ,400. There are ma ny different inequities in our educational system from nursery school to high school and through high school, and this gove rnment is refusing to deal with that issue. They have put it on the back burner.

For whatever reasons, Madam Deputy Speaker, hy are refusing to deal with that issue. That is Irresponsible. The gove rnment says they are going to cut 2 percent flat from our education, and I am going to comment in terms of what th4:1 Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) had to say about quality of education a bit later. But 2 percen1-if h government wanted to save money and im prove the quality and equity in education instead of being so artificial, why do they not look at restructuring the number of school divisions in the city of Winnipeg and in fact in rural Manitoba?

We do not need to have 11 school divisions. We have the highest adminis tration costs in Ca nada, and we will continue to un til this gov ernment comes to grips with dealing with the problems of education and starts addressing it in terms of bringing in the legislation that is necessary, because this is the only body that can deal with it. Unfortunately, we, not being in government, have to rely on the current government if in fact we are going to see something in the very, very near future.

Madam Deputy Speaker, in terms of private schools, one of th4ose issues that it would probably be best to not comment in terms of too much detail, there are some things that could be done and should be done dealing with the private schools. I will get other opportunities to deal with that particular issue.

April 14 , 19 93 LEGISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 16 69 I wanted to comment on the qual ity of education. This is something that I personally had taken offence to the other day, and I do not know why the government took it as so offensive in terms of what it is that I had to say. I wanted to say what the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) said, and I am going to quote from Hansard.

It reads: "The member does I believe make an error by sugges ting that the number of dollars put into Education is strictly what maintains the quality of education or dictates the quality of education, because we know that that is not necessarily true." Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, if the Minister of Education, as opposed to saying that, said, we are going to put a cap or we are not going to spend more money on public schools or make statements of that nature, I might disagree with her in some areas, but to say that it does not have an impact or to imply it does not have an impact on qual ity of education I think is wrong.

I could bring in the private school issue here. Why do people bring their children to private schools? For a num ber of diffe rent reasons- religion, for prestige and for quality. [interjection] Well, to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mrs. Mcintosh), now is she being cheap? Is she being cheap with her cheap shots? The other day when I stood up and said just something similar to that, the government thought i was being cheap. An Honourable Member: Did you think what I said was cheap? Mr. Lamoureux: Well, no, I did not. No, I did not.

Some individuals do say the reason why they send their children to a private school and pay-{interjection] I just went through the three of them. It is because of the quality of education. That is at least in part why they pay the thousands of dollars that they do. So for the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) to say that quality of education has nothing to do with money, or to imply it, is wrong, and this is what she implied. Madam Deputy Speaker, there are some things that could be done. I have an educational work group in my own riding.

We talk about the quality of the education and things that could be done-th ings such as discipline within the schools, things such as the curriculum, what should be included, what may be spent too much time on, the number of hours that are actually being put into the classroom and so forth. I know that I have actively surveyed my constituents through different means, and I can say that they generally feel the quality of education is deteriorating in the province of Manitoba.

I believe if the government were to start to deal with some of these issues, that in fact what would happen is we would see the quality of education starting to improve. * (1 530) I want to comment briefly on post-secondary education. You know in our colleges in the province of Manitoba, we have fewer per capita individuals attending our colleges than virtually any other province. In fact, it was a while back I had asked a question about an individual who quit a job because he was going to be starting a course this spring at Red River College. He quit a job, got ready- An Honourable Member: When did he come? Mr.

Lamoureux: I do not know the actual date, but I can get that information if the minister approach�s me later and asks for it. But in fact this particular individual came back to Winnipeg to go to this course at Red River College . What we find, Madam Deputy Speaker, is that this particular government has not put a priority on our colleges. This misplaced priority from this government is going to cost the province of Manitoba jobs in the future. I believe that they have to re-evaluate what it is they are doing to our colleges in the province of Manitoba.

In fact, the one reform that they did, they made it a bit better but they could have gone the extra step, and that is with respect to the board of governors. What they did is they gave each college the opportunity to have their own board of governors and those-{interjection] The Minister of Consumer and Co-operative Affairs (Mrs. Mcintosh) is quite exercised, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I wonder if she might be able to contain herself for a bit.

Anyway, the colleges and the board of governors probably would have worked a bit better had we had one board because then there would have been more co-operation-[i nte�ection] Well, if the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs had been listening, she would not be asking .

16 70 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA April14 , 1993 With respect to our universities, the same thing could apply. If the government wants to do something, why do they not look at things such as our boards to foster better co-operation amongst ,our universities? You know, lloyd Axworthy had an idea with prairie integrat ion.

H you go a bit further and you talk in terms of the universities and you say that in lthe prairie provinces-and some would argue one could even include western Ontario-if there was a better co-operation amongs t our universities, or more barriers taken down, if you will, you could ha1ve better courses being offered or made available, a higher level of expertise at our different universiti4�s.

Is it necessary, Madam Deputy Speaker, that if under a system of co-operation amongst the prairie prov inces a university would be responsible for �he graduation of our doctors, another university mi �1ht be responsible for our registered nurses? In ordler to maintain a certain standard, you need to have• a certain number gradua ting. If you got that sort of co-operation, you would S4�e in fact that we would ha ve better facilities-universities, that is-and provide more opportunities amongst the prairie provinces. So if you graduated- Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please.

If the honoura ble mem bers wish to carry on a conversation, would they please move to the I�Je or outside the Chamber? Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Deputy Speaker, hc•w much time do I have left, because I do not want to miss out on everything I was going to say. Madam Deputy Sp eaker : The honourable memb er has nine mi nutes and 21 seconds remaining. Mr. Lamoureux: Well, I am going to have to comment on health care and health care reform. You know, we as a caucus have been very supp ortive in terms of what the government has been doing.

Our health care, in part, in the provinc:e of Manitoba has become a sense of identity to many or is related to being a part of Canadian. It is something that we want to preserve, and there is no doubt about that, Madam Deputy Speaker. The idea of deinstitutionalizing is a good one if, in fact, it is done in a proper fashion. Everyone benefits if you have seniors who are in a hospital who could be in a personal care home and senioi'S who are in a personal care home who could be in an independent, detached, single dwelling if we enhance our senior home care services.

H we do that, in fact, we will have a cost saving, and we will deliver a better service. But, when it comes to the issue of health care, I think what we need to do, as Legislature, is to debate the issue of medicare. What is health care? Time after time we hear, well, that is a user fee, that is a deductible; you are putting into jeopardy the health care system. It is easy to fearrnonger when it comes to health care, something that we all value as a sacred trust.

I know I personally do, and will do what I can to ensur e that we do have universal-the five fundamental principles of our medicare system for the generations to come. But I do believe we have to address other issues of health care reform . What is health care? Eye examinations? Is that cl assified as health care? We charge in Saskatchewan in order to get eyes examined. For the second time around, you get charged in Manitoba. Charging for a pair of slippers, Madam Deputy Speaker, is that health care? We have to better define what health care is.

I would suggest to you that charging to get your eyes examined is more of a user fee than charging for a pair of slippers in the hospital. That issue needs to be addressed. Madam Deputy Speaker, another issue is the health care prof essions themselves. The LPNs have been belittled and have been played down. At what expense? I think we have to start working with our health care prof essionals, maybe looking at the possibility that doctors do not necessarily have to be the only access point to our hospitals, to our personal care homes, to our walk-in clinics and so forth. Is there a need for that?

Can we not have other professionals such as the B.N.s, a nurse practitioner have access to delivering some of these health care services, something that does need to be looked at? Labour training and retraining-! want to talk very briefly about Partners for Skills Development. This is a report that was given to the government in 19 90 from a comm ittee that the Minister of Education established back in 19 89 known as the Skills Training Advisory Commi ttee. It had six ma jor recomme ndations: Rrst, to develop a provincial labour strategy; im prove a public school system; strengthen the comm unity

April 14 , 1993 LEGI SLATI VE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 16 71 colleges; four, facilitate human resources planning and training; five, to revitalize apprenticeship systems; six, to address the education and training needs of our aboriginal people. * (1 540) Madam Deputy Speaker, this government, with the possible exception of No. 3, has virtually done nothing to address the labour training and retraining needs of the province of Manitoba. You have to put it in the proper context of our current economy, the structural changes that are occurring that are out there.

Our manufacturing industry had 62,000 people in 19 89 compared to 51 ,000 people in '92. These are major structural changes, and this government is doing minimal in terms of addressing those issues. Madam Deputy Speaker, the environment, we have sugges ted to this government time after time that they need to implement programs that could make a difference. I will give them credit, as I say, on the gasohol, an excellent idea.

What about putting a refundable value on a beverage container, something that we have been pushing for for a good period of time; the whole issue of water diversion and what is happening there. There are a lot of things that could be done if the government was prepared to take action. With only a couple of minutes left, Madam Deputy Speaker, I do have to comment on, very briefly, a direction that this government is going in terms of political grants, if you like. MIC has been slowly tortured by this government in favour of politicizing multicultural grants.

The Heritage Federation-the same sort of action we have seen there. Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to make a challenge to the government. This is to the REDI pro gr am, the Rural Economic Developmen t Initiative program. If the government wants to be sincere, why does it not establish a board which could be based on volunteers, because I know the Premier (Mr. Rlmon) is all gung ho on volunteers.

Why does he not base this board on volunteers from the associations such as UMM or MAUM, get representatives from possibly Keystone, individuals who are into the rural communities and allow them the opportunity to make the decisions, at least in part, on where that money or how that money could be better spent so that rural economic development in the province of Manitoba will in fact happen? The problem with that, Madam Deputy Speaker, is it will de politicize it to some degree.

Past actions from this government show that they would not necessarily favour something like that, but they could take that bold initiative and act on that particular issue. Madam Deputy Speaker, I had the opportunity to speak on a number of different budgets and throne speeches. Every opportunity that I do get up to stand and speak in this Chamber I try to provide ideas for this government to act upon. When the Deputy Premier (Mr.

Downey) says that we have a responsibili ty to provide the alternative to this government, I can tell the Deputy Premier that the Liberal caucus has provided numerous ideas and initiatives that would make the quality of life in the province of Manitoba better. There is an onus on government to act at least on some of them. Whoever wins the leadership of the Liberal Party, we will continue to provide the alternatives to Manitobans as this go vernment continue s to govern, because this government has not been addressing the issues that we feel would enhance the quality of life.

I strongly urge the government to take very seriously what opposition members are saying and listen and possibly read what the Deputy Premier had to say. We will get a better sense of co-operation in this Chamber if, in fact, there were some areas in which government acted upon and gave credit to where it was warranted. Things could be done to strengthen the leg islative committees that are there, better ways in which including all members in this Chamber- Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member's time has expired. Hon .

Darren Praznlk (Minister of Labour): Madam Deputy Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise in my place here today to join in this debate on the budget as a member, of course, of cabinet and of the Treasury bench. Oui, et aussi pour moi c'est un honneur et un plaisir d'etre le ministre responsable des services en langue franc;aise. [Translation) It is also an honour and a pleasure for me to be the Minister responsible for French Language Services.

16 72 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA April 14 , 1993 [English] I wish to thank my colleague and friend 1he member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) for his good wishes on that appointment. Madam Deputy Speaker, there has been an ongoing de bate across the aisle the last few days about remarks made by the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), which he reiterated in the course of his address to the budget and many on this side of the House. I would like to add my observations or comments to that debate, because I think it is a go·od point to be made.

There may be disagreement over the specifics. or intent, Madam Deputy Speaker, and certainly oth,�rs may comment on that. But when I review Hansard and I look at the comments that were made, I belie•ve in the remarks made in Question Period on Apriil 8 by the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), thure was certainly an implication made, whether it was intended or not or whether or not it should have been brought forward in much greater clarification, which certainly I would admit that time in Question Period does not allow.

There was certainly an implication made that equating the doll ars spent on education-but I think one could argue, and I would argue in any area. of governme nt- that the dollars spent equate wi�h equa lit y of -in the case of the me mb er s question-education, but certainly if one expands it to any service government provides. Ma:lam Deputy Speaker, when I review Hansard, the Minister of Education (Mrs.

Vodrey), in the cut and thrust of the Question Period responded, I think, and 1 support her remarks wholeheartedly, that one should never make the error of equating quality with dollars spent because they do not necessarily-and 1 use the minister's words-do not necessarily equate. Just because we spend more money or w_e reduced expenditure in a particular area that WH In fact are going to make things better or worse.

The reason I raise that, I know the Minister of Education certainly did not appreciate, nor do I think anyone on this side, the member's comments 1hat simply because the Minister of Education chooses to educate her children in a private school that has a rather large expensive fee, that somehow :she herself equates expenditure with quality. Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. If the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) wishes to carry on a conver sation , I would app reciate him moving to the loge which is appr opr ia tely designed for those ty pes of conversations. Mr.

Praznlk: Madam Deput y Sp eaker, as I indicated, or am about to indicate, as you look at the private school system, the independent school system in Manitoba, you will see that there are many of those schools where the cost of educating a student is signi ficantly lower than the public system, and many would argue that the quality of education in those institutions is appreciably better. * (1 550) 1 am not going to debate the merits of whether that should happen or not-that is a debate we have had in this House-but I think that proves the point wholeheartedly.

I know I have constituents from the area in which I grew up in the Lockport-St. Andrew's area who use the Holy Ghost School on Selkirk Avenue, St. Alphonsus in East Kildonan where the tuition is just a couple of hundreds of dollars, not the thousands that the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) implies. They have chosen those schools not just because of the religious element of an education, but also because they feel their children get a better quality of education than they do in the public system.

There ar e certai nly some reasons for that, requirements of the school, the ability to impose a discipli nary reg ime, a host of very legit imate reasons that make the difference. I think the point is proven that with the right combination of circumstance and the right combination of structure and the right people, with less money you can have better quali ty, that doll ars do not always or necessarily equate to quality.

Madam Deputy Speaker, one of the items in this debate that I have seen come forward time and time again as members opposite have engaged in this debate is making just that point, that somehow, because we are not spending more, that we are destroying the basic infrastructure of government and destroying the quality. Madam Deputy Speaker, when I was first elected to this House in 1 988-and six of the seven members of the Liberal Party were elected in that election, there were many on the New Democratic benches, actually none who came in in that particular

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-4-41
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 4th hansardpdf 41.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	373166999f5f513ff35e07854ee76d816f8c13c2

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