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September 30, 2015

41st Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2015-Sep-30 (PDF)

L102 - Wed 30 Sep 2015 / Mer 30 sep 2015

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Wednesday 30 September 2015 Mercredi 30 septembre 2015

Orders of the Day

Strengthening Consumer Protection and Electricity System Oversight Act, 2015 / Loi de 2015 pour renforcer la protection des consommateurs et la surveillance du réseau d’électricité

Introduction of Visitors

Oral Questions

By-election in Sudbury

Privatization of public assets

By-election in Sudbury

Privatization of public assets

Privatization of public assets

By-election in Sudbury

Minimum wage

Privatization of public assets

Government services

Equal opportunity

Privatization of public assets

Pension plans

Forest industry

Privatization of public assets

Domestic violence

Tamara Pomanski

Visitor

Introduction of Visitors

Members’ Statements

John D. Bradley

Marty Gervais

Jane Street Hub

Bear control

Heroes

Think Outside the Car

Referenda

Bread and Roses Co-op Homes

United Achievers’ Club of Brampton

Introduction of Bills

Transparency in Government Bills Act, 2015 / Loi de 2015 sur la transparence des projets de loi émanant du gouvernement

Referendum Act, 2015 / Loi référendaire de 2015

Statements by the Ministry and Responses

Senior citizens

Petitions

Curriculum

Dental care

Diagnostic services

Lake Nipissing walleye fishery

Long-term care

Water fluoridation

Health care funding

Privatization of public assets

Renewable energy

Opposition Day

Privatization of public assets

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

Orders of the Day

Strengthening Consumer Protection and Electricity System Oversight Act, 2015 / Loi de 2015 pour renforcer la protection des consommateurs et la surveillance du réseau d’électricité

Resuming the debate adjourned on September 24, 2015, on the motion for second reading of the following bill:

Bill 112,

An Act to amend the Energy Consumer Protection Act, 2010 and the Ontario Energy Board Act, 1998 / Projet de loi 112, Loi modifiant la Loi de 2010 sur la protection des consommateurs d’énergie et la Loi de 1998 sur la Commission de l’énergie de l’Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further debate?

Mr. John Yakabuski: Twenty-six minutes? I thought I would get a new 60; that the clock would start over. Apparently, that’s not the way it works here. I got up early looking forward to the opportunity to speak to this bill a little longer.

On Thursday, we heard the speech from the Minister of Energy; he barely spoke about Bill 112. Yesterday, I got the same speech in the Standing Committee on Estimates. He must be trying to perfect it and hoping that if he says it often enough, over and over again, he’s actually going to believe it himself. I guarantee you, Mr. Speaker—oh, a new Speaker; that was quick—that he doesn’t believe what he’s saying himself. But I think he’s got instructions from the corner office on the second floor: “Minister, you have to say this speech over and over again at least three or four times a day for the next few weeks so that you will believe it.”

For the new members here, they just hook them up to the intravenous Kool-Aid and they’ve got them all fixed up within a couple of weeks.

I want to talk about some of the things the minister has been talking about in addition to Bill 112, which he never spoke about—he had an hour to speak, and he used about 15 minutes, maybe. I don’t even know if he mentioned the bill, and I question whether he’s even read the bill. He’s been so busy reciting his speech trying to defend the government’s sale of Hydro One and how the Ontario Energy Board is going to protect consumers.

Bill 112 is essentially a consumer protection bill. But I guess I would ask the question: If this government is so bent on protecting the consumer, where in the name of Sam Hill have they been for the last 12 years, when energy rates in this province have tripled and skyrocketed to the highest in North America?

When you consider consumer energy bills and compare them with Quebec or Manitoba—and my colleague here from Lanark–Frontenac–Lennox and Addington has made a pretty big deal and done a lot of research on the cost of hydro in Manitoba and Quebec relative to here in Ontario. He’s not talking through his hat or taking these numbers out of the air like the government likes to do. He has actually done the analysis. He has compared specific, legitimate energy bills from Manitoba versus those here in Ontario, and specific, legitimate energy bills from Quebec and those here in Ontario.

There are bills with people’s names on them. They’re not a reasonable facsimile generated out of the minister’s office. They are actual people in Manitoba with real homes and real businesses, and people in Quebec with real homes and real businesses. He has compared them: One of them is about half the price of ours and one of them is about two thirds the price of ours.

So, if you want to talk about consumer protection, the best consumer protection you can give is to give the consumer a fair deal, one that they can afford, so that they can live their lives in comfort and dignity. I say “dignity” when I’m talking about the elderly in this province. When you think about—for some of us—your parents in the 1970s and how many of your parents built a home in the 1970s. Remember the 1970s?

Mr. Grant Crack: I do.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Well, you would.

Yes, the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs would remember the 1970s. He would probably remember the 1930s.

Interjection.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Oh, I remember plenty of the 1970s; some of it I’m trying to forget.

If you look at the 1970s and how many of your people, who might have been parents—or in the case of the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs, it might have been his brothers or sisters who were building homes in the 1970s. All the rage then was, “You know what? You’ve got to heat that thing electrically. Get them electric baseboards in there because, you know what? You’re not going to have to worry about a furnace. You’re not going to have to worry about an oil tank and fuel or gas lines. You’re just going to have them nice, cute, little electric baseboards down at the bottom of the walls in your home.

You’re just going to take that little dial and just turn it up, because, you see, electricity is virtually free. It’s so cheap, you can’t even put a price on it. So heat your homes electrically.”

Do you remember the water heaters? I won’t sing the song in the Legislature here, but you remember the Cascade 40 water heater? You know, you’ve got to heat your water—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Well, we’ve started off with little outbursts, have we? I believe the Speaker instructed the House that we are going to go through the Chair, and I see that’s slipping again. So let’s get back on track, folks. Thank you.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Speaker, if there was any implication that I’m not going through the Chair, I apologize. If it seems I turn—I just like to keep my feet moving because if I stand in one place too often, I might grow roots.

I just want to say, Speaker, do you remember those Cascade 40 ads about how important it was to get that water heated electrically? One of the ads said, “You know, with the new Cascade 40 electric water heater, you can virtually leave your tap running forever and never run out of hot water.” What a bunch of baloney that was. But, again—

Mr. Rick Nicholls: You watch too much TV.

Mr. John Yakabuski: I say to the member from Chatham–Kent–Essex, it’s not how much TV you watch, it’s how much you pay attention. I’m going to give you some advice, through the Speaker, of course: Always pay attention and you might learn something. I hope you’re paying attention now.

That water heater—you could leave it running forever, because the story behind it was, and the message behind it was, that electricity is so cheap in this province it’s not even worth putting a price on. It’s not even worth the trouble of pricing it, it’s so cheap. And that’s what happened. So now those same people who built those homes in the 1970s are aged. They need that heat on a lot more than they did in the 1970s when they might have been in their thirties or forties, and now they’re in their seventies or eighties. When those cold winter days come and they have to turn that thermostat up—it’s killing them.

Not because they’re freezing to death, but because it’s a choice between freezing to death or going broke because of the energy policies of this government.

I say to the minister, if you are so bent and determined to protect the consumer, where the heck have you been? Where have you been in the last 12 years when the consumer has been crying for some relief on energy rates? They’re crying while you turn your back on them, close your eyes and ignore their pleas, because every time we turn around, your policies have driven the price of electricity up.

Mark my words, Speaker—and I say this through you directly: On November 1, when that great protector at the Ontario Energy Board that has been so protective of consumers that we’ve seen electricity rates triple under this government, because it can’t do a darn thing to prevent the rises in electricity rates when it is faced with the policies of this government—mark my words: On November 1, when hydro rates get set again, they’re going up. They’re going up because of this insane policy of the government that they invoked under the Green Energy Act—the cost of electricity, the contracts they have signed.

In June alone—I know that on that side of the House, when you say the name “Parker Gallant,” they all roll their eyes. But this guy is an educated banker; he’s retired. He decided he didn’t like what he was seeing on his electricity bills. He is speaking for all people, everyone in Ontario, when he challenges the government not only on their policies, but on the way that they dispense information and whether or not they are truthful when they tell the stories about their energy rates here in Ontario.

Parker Gallant had a piece in the paper that said in June, Ontario lost—I may get the figure just a little bit wrong, so forgive me if I’m not 100% accurate, because I didn’t write it down; I’m just going by my memory, because I try to pay attention—$224 million. Some $224 million in June alone was the price that Ontario paid to give away electricity to other jurisdictions.

Mr. Chris Ballard: Yeah, right.

Mr. John Yakabuski: I see the man from Newmarket has awakened and he says, “Yeah, right.” Well, if he’s got some other figures, let’s hear them.

Interjections.

Mr. John Yakabuski: “Yeah, you’re right.” Oh, I see. Yes, right. You’re confirming what I—through you—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): To the Speaker—not through the Speaker; to the Speaker. And you got off the track again, didn’t you?

Mr. John Yakabuski: It’s the heckling.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Well, get that car back on the road. Thanks.

Go ahead.

Mr. John Yakabuski: To you, Speaker, I want to thank the member from Newmarket–Aurora for confirming what I said about $224 million being wasted in June alone by giving away energy to other jurisdictions.

Let’s talk a little bit about Bill 112, which the minister chose not to do. This is, again, the government trying to purport themselves as the other great protector of the consumer. They’re bringing in this legislation that bans door-to-door sales in the electricity and energy contract business—in that sector. Nobody is arguing that. In fact, the sector itself has pretty much gone away from door-to-door because they recognize the challenges they’ve had in that, and they recognize that when you have rogue salespeople you’re going to have problems. I spoke a little bit about that when I spoke earlier, on Thursday.

But some of the steps they’re taking, quite frankly, go too far. If they want to actually do that, then they might as well just support Sarah Campbell’s bill—pardon me, the member from Kenora–Rainy River. I think her bill is Bill 111, if I’m not mistaken. Her bill would just ban the practice altogether of having energy contracts available for sale.

They don’t want to do that, you see—and that’s why the member from Kenora–Rainy River’s bill is not going to go anywhere—because it would be subject to an amazingly long, protracted, painful court challenge; you’d be outlawing the rights of people to make a living. But the government may as well do that, because that’s essentially what they are doing here. But they want to do it by stealth and trickery and chicanery, as opposed to doing it straight out.

Interjections.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: Mr. Speaker, I might suggest that is about as far away from parliamentary language as you can get.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): That may be your opinion. If I think he goes over the borderline I’ll let him know. He’s treading on the line right now with those ones.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Certainly I don’t think it’s ever been against the law to tread on the line, Speaker, has it?

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): It is when the Speaker thinks it is.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Apparently you don’t at this juncture. I appreciate that. I’m saying this to the Speaker.

A part of this bill that really doesn’t make sense to me is the 20-day cooling-off period. We understood that with electricity contracts there had to be a verification call and all of this and stuff like that. But this 20-day cooling-off period applies to any product that an energy re-marketer would offer to consumers—and the Minister of the Environment would love this—even an energy-saving, greenhouse-gas cutting, high-tech thermostat that would reduce use because it would make energy use in the home or business more efficient.

If I wanted to buy one of those under this legislation, I would have to wait 20 days, and I’d have to go through a verification call with 26 actual questions I would have to answer. You know what most people would be saying? “You can take that thermostat, and you know where you can”—yes, exactly.

Essentially, what they are saying is, “You’re not going to be in business.” So why don’t they just do that? But you see, that’s not the way this government works. It doesn’t like to do things in a transparent and open and accountable way. That’s what they talk about but, my good gosh, all we have to mention is the word “Sudbury.” Energy prices in Sudbury are just as wrong as they are across the rest of the parts of Ontario. Those poor people in Sudbury who have to pay a high price for energy are paying a high price in the news today, because their lovely city is in the news because of a bribery scandal.

They’d love to be talking about electricity rates in Sudbury, but all anybody wants to talk about is the bribery scandal.

Mr. Bob Delaney: Point of order.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Point of order, the member from Mississauga–Streetsville.

Mr. Bob Delaney: Pursuant to standing order 23(b)(i), I ask the member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke, through the Speaker, to return to the subject of the marketing of energy contracts door to door, which is exactly what this bill is discussing.

While the member is free to have his opinions about whatever issue he feels may be germane, they do not relate to the subject of the bill at hand.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Thank you for your point of order. If it would have been a little shorter, it would have been nice, but I get the drift.

The member will refrain from drifting again: next time, last time.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Speaker, I do my very best to stay on the subject. But I think it is fair to say that from time to time there are overlapping interests. I appreciate when you intervene and say that we have to move back to that. I appreciate that, and I will accept gratefully those admonishments. I don’t think it’s necessary to get the point of order all the time that the member from Mississauga–Streetsville likes to take a week to deliver—and talk slowly so that it takes more of my time off the clock.

Mr. Bob Delaney: Be careful, that’s a point of order, on making an allegation—

Mr. John Yakabuski: Yeah, yeah, allegations. Yes.

I’ll tell you what they do care about in Sudbury. They wonder if some of these energy producers in the province that are getting rich on $50 billion in global adjustment that is going into the pockets in the last 10 years—some people would call that bribery. So I guess for the people in Sudbury, they figure there are two bribery scandals going on: one on the energy rates and one, of course, that Mr. Olivier was offered a bribe to not run as a candidate in the election.

Interjection.

Mr. John Yakabuski: We can say “bribery” because the OPP have said it’s bribery.

Mr. Bob Delaney: Point of order.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Okay, my patience is thinning.

A point of order from the member from Mississauga–Streetsville.

Mr. Bob Delaney: Speaker, if the member will actually read the standing orders, he will know that he is presuming the outcome of a legal proceeding and making an unsubstantiated allegation. That’s at least two points of order that the member has drifted from, in addition to straying, once again, from the topic of the bill.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Mississauga–Streetsville likes to bring up points of order, but he also likes to yell after he’s done. That won’t be accepted.

The member will not drift again.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Thank you very much, Speaker, for recognizing the fact that the member from Mississauga–Streetsville really just likes to create discord in the House as opposed to actually making legitimate—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Well, I’ve been up a lot. I’m getting tired of getting up and down like at a football game.

The member—you’re not exactly innocent from causing aggravation. Thank you.

Mr. John Yakabuski: It’s interesting that you would use the term “innocent,” Speaker. In this day and age, the funny thing about the Liberal government on the other side is that they presume—you see it in the Premier every time she drifts on a subject. She presumes that if someone has not been proven guilty, then they absolutely are innocent of any wrongdoing whatsoever. That’s the premise she seems to work on when conducting business in her office.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): If you don’t get back to the subject we are discussing, I’ll be moving on to a new person. Last warning.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I accept that warning. I fully understand the authority that you have on these matters.

Bill 112,

An Act to amend the Energy Consumer Protection Act, 2010 and the Ontario Energy Board Act, 1998: We understand the genesis of this legislation. I was here in 2010 when they made the changes. Everybody agreed with it. That act passed with the support of all parties in the House because it did the right thing. It prevented—what’s the word?—in my opinion, the wrongful acts that were taking place at the door in marketing retail energy contracts. I think we kind of took care of that.

We’re okay with banning the practice of selling an energy contract at the door. As I said, we’re concerned about some of the measures in this bill that are designed to portray the government as being so caring about the consumer that they’re going to bring in the strongest possible legislation that they can to protect them, when, in fact, all they’re really trying to do—you’ll see. You will see when this passes. It’s going to pass, I suspect, although I haven’t had the word from the third party at this point. The critic for the third party will speak later. I believe he’s speaking this morning on the bill.

I suspect that the third party is going to support this legislation. They may not support this legislation. Depending on what a good job the government does—well, they’ve got the majority. The bill is going to pass. I’m quite certain the bill is going to pass.

You’re going to see these Liberal ministers going out there, and big press releases saying, “The Liberal government stands up, protecting consumers in Ontario once again with the strongest consumer protection law in the country when it comes to retail energy contracts.” And they’re going to blah blah blah, but you won’t have any

part in their talking about what they’ve done to the Ontario energy consumer over the past 12 years. In fact, they walk around like they’ve got blinders on or their heads are in the clouds, thinking somehow these energy rates rose as a result of—gosh, I can’t even think of the process. The process of osmosis, maybe; I don’t know. Somehow they just, on their own, rose in the province of Ontario, and the government policies had nothing to do with it.

I recall, Speaker, when George Smitherman—remember George Smitherman?

Mr. Todd Smith: Oh, yes.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Oh, yes. George knew everything, and you knew he was going to save the world. He was going to save the world, and he brought in the Green Energy Act. Speaker, do you remember that?

Mr. Bob Delaney: Drifting.

Mr. John Yakabuski: I’m not drifting at all. You talk about consumer protection.

In 2009, the Liberals, with their massive majority, passed the Green Energy Act. I might say that they had the support of the third party on that as well.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: How do we get these majorities? Out of osmosis?

Mr. John Yakabuski: The smugness of the Minister of the Environment: Now he’s saying, “How did we get these majorities?” You just keep up that smugness. One of these days you’ll get your comeuppance, because you know what? You can’t rule this province forever—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Don’t give me the hand manoeuvers or anything. My patience is gone. And the minister knows better than to get into a one-on-one.

You have one minute, thank goodness. Go.

Mr. John Yakabuski: I feel like they’re opening the gates of the gallows here, Speaker. What’s going on? I have one minute. I’m glad that I received that last minute, because if I didn’t, I probably wouldn’t be around for questions and comments either. I’m sorry about that.

I do want to say that we’re going to support this legislation and we’ll look for amendments, because it does go too far. It does go too far, and the government needs to know that. They don’t have to go too far in order to protect the consumer.

In fact, what they’re doing here with this bill is they’re taking away legitimate consumer choice. You can balance the two. This government doesn’t seem to get it. They’re so fixated with putting a pretend image about themselves out there that they’re forgetting the reality of what’s going on in the world.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: It’s a pleasure to rise to contribute to this debate this morning.

The member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke always starts us off in the morning with his debates. He’s very electrified. I notice that you are working very hard when the member is speaking. It’s great that we’re all engaged in today’s debate.

This bill talks about consumer protection, Speaker. It’s not news to anyone here how many calls we get in our constituency offices about these door-to-door sales contracts that people enter into, that they really had no idea what they were signing.

I had an example—actually, one of the constituents from not my riding but London North Centre. They came to me last year, and I didn’t have the heart to say that I couldn’t help them, so I personally sat and helped these constituents. I called the energy company. They were very co-operative, believe it or not, to actually cancel the contract with the constituents. But it was a mess, and these people were devastated. They had to pay these high electrical bills, thinking that when they signed this contract, they were going to get competitive rates. It didn’t turn out that way.

In this bill, they talk about the cooling-off period. Ten days originally was the cooling-off; it is now 20 days. It’s never going to be enough, because people don’t understand these contracts. The bill that’s been presented by our member from Kenora–Rainy River is really the bill that we should be supporting in order to protect consumers and make it transparent—what rates look like when you enter a contract. There shouldn’t be that practice allowed.

I just want to thank the member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke for giving us his entertaining debate this morning, and I look forward to further debate on this bill.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Hon. David Zimmer: What has been lost sight of, at least in this morning’s debate so far, is that this piece of legislation dealing with the Ontario Energy Board really has to be considered in the context of the plan to broaden the ownership of Hydro One. We’re all aware of the initiative behind and the reasons for broadening the ownership of Hydro One.

Hand in hand with broadening the ownership of Hydro One is the reform of or changes to the OEB. With the ownership of Hydro One being broadened, it’s very important that the OEB play a strong oversight role.

It sets out the OEB’s mandate to act as a fair, impartial and independent regulator. It will provide the OEB with a really robust set of powers to oversee and regulate the energy sector, and that includes the following: setting just and reasonable rates; enforcing its oversight powers through the ability to impose penalties for non-compliance; and licensing market participants, including electricity transmitters and distributors, and imposing various licensing conditions; for instance, service and reliability standards.

The OMB will now have—

Mr. John Yakabuski: OEB.

Hon. David Zimmer: —OEB—an increased responsibility, and this is important, for reviewing and approving applications for mergers, acquisitions, and divestures for transmission or distribution of assets, to ensure that ratepayers are not harmed as a result of this transaction.

So you see, you have to take the new OEB Act and consider it in the context of what we’re trying to do with broadening the ownership of Hydro One. It’s to ensure protection and fairness.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Jim McDonell: Stormont.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): It’s been a lovely morning. Stormont–Dundas–South Glengarry.

Mr. Jim McDonell: Thank you, Speaker. I see you’re having a mental lapse here, I suppose, listening to some of the debate this morning.

I always enjoy listening to my colleague here from Renfrew talking about some of the issues, especially when it comes to hydro. I mean, could there be a bigger mess under this government—$50 billion over the last 10 years in global adjustment. People would not have believed that. Of course, this government doesn’t want anybody to believe that.

I was watching the press interview last year after the Auditor General’s release. Their only tactic was to say that she wasn’t qualified to make decisions. This is where this government has gone. It’s an embarrassment. Even they’re embarrassed; they’re trying to discredit some of the officers of the House. Of course, we see that in the last budget, when they took away their powers, so these things won’t happen again. These officers come out and really talk about some of the ridiculous policies that we’ve seen in the last 10 years—$224 million in June alone.

These are embarrassing figures, and the ratepayers are paying them. The member from London–Fanshawe talked about the constituent who is desperate to look for savings and, of course, signing up for contracts they shouldn’t get into.

Seniors are desperate for savings in the electricity field. What used to be, as the member from Renfrew said, an extremely cheap commodity in this province is now off the wall. It’s out of reach. People are walking in, turning off their heat in the wintertime, trying to save heat so they can go out and buy some food. That’s where we’ve gone under this Green Energy Act and with the policies. It’s the biggest question I get every day. It’s no wonder when this government comes out to rural Ontario, they actually get booed and have issues.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Taras Natyshak: It’s a pleasure to be in the House this morning. I want to talk to our House leader and make sure I’m on House duty every time the member from Pembroke–Nipissing—what is your—

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Renfrew.

Mr. Taras Natyshak: Renfrew, sorry. He never disappoints. He brings it with a level of intensity rarely seen in here. However, I still am no further educated on the bill than I was before he spoke.

Thankfully, our caucus experts provide us with these wonderful briefing notes that I’ve been going through and, with a cursory look at this, the bill seems to show that there’s a little bit of sugar-coating on the topside, in the first part of the bill, dealing with door-to-door salespeople when it comes to energy sales—those folks who show up at your door, typically younger students who are struggling, looking for work. They jump into these door-to-door sales positions. They are trained to be very aggressive.

They are trained to get into your house, get your bill, take a look at it, talk you into circles and have you sign, and get out the door with a contract signed. People have no idea what they have just signed. There’s no question that these types of processes and the predatory aspect of it have to be reined in.

However, the back side of this bill, the second part, deals with an enormously complex issue in the Ontario Energy Board. Essentially, the government is paving the way, clearing the road, for large, private multinationals to circumvent the OEB process when it comes to new transmission lines. This is, I would imagine, an ask out of the negotiations that have been taking place behind closed doors between the government and the proponents of private energy, something that will lessen public scrutiny, lessen oversight, lessen transparency, but most definitely increase hydro rates for ratepayers and businesses all across the province of Ontario. We’re very fearful of this bill, Speaker.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke has two minutes.

Mr. John Yakabuski: I want to thank the member from London–Fanshawe, the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs, the member from Stormont–Dundas–South Glengarry and the member for Essex for their comments. I say to the member for Essex, if he thought he learned little about the bill in my speech, he should have been here for the minister’s one on Thursday.

Part of the reason that they brought in this bill—it’s a bit of cover, too, with the Hydro One sale. They’re making sure that they’ve got themselves covered on the Hydro One sale, but first, they want what they see as a positive piece of legislation for consumers, and secondly, part of the changes to the Ontario Energy Board Act are to help them with the sale of Hydro One and allow it to conduct itself should it become privatized, or should at least a portion of it be sold to private interests.

Again, as I say, this is designed to get some positive stuff out there because the government has botched the sale of Hydro One so badly—so badly that most recent polls have 83% of the public opposing the sale of Hydro One. When 83% of the public oppose something—it’s often you’ll find 47% opposed, 46% are favour and 5% don’t care, or 38% are opposed, 37% are in favour and 15% don’t care, whatever. But in this case, when the numbers are so staggering and stark—over 80% of the people polled said they don’t believe the province should sell Hydro One. They are doing everything they can to give themselves a smokescreen and to cloud the issue when it comes to Hydro One.

We have an opposition day motion today and it’s calling for transparency and accountability and a release of the analysis and the figures, and I hope that these folks over on the other side of this aisle actually do the right thing for a change and support that motion.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: It’s a pleasure to be able to address the matter of Bill 112, the government’s—and I say this with some irony—Strengthening Consumer Protection and Electricity System Oversight Act, 2015.

I will address some of the main points in this bill. I will then look at what was said by the minister when he spoke to this House a short while ago. I’ll touch on some of the dangers that are implicit in the government’s drive to bypass the Ontario Energy Board.

First, I want to say that the member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke got it pretty right when he said that this government is taking a beating on the sale of Hydro One. It has intended to try and surround that sale with as much camouflage as it possibly can. If you listen to the Minister of Energy, he speaks about the power of the Ontario Energy Board to control prices because he well knows that this ill-fated venture to privatize utilities—not just Hydro One, but to allow privatization across this province—will mean much higher hydro rates.

His only shield—his only argument—is that he has a regulator that can actually take action to protect consumers. In this act, he substantially undermines that regulator, and in saying that the regulator can control prices, he ignores the reality of what has happened in Ontario for the last 12 years and he ignores the reality of what happens when you have privatized energy systems.

There are two bills here: One presents itself as a consumer protection act, and this is clearly where the government wants to focus; the second is the whole question of the regulator and how that regulator will operate in the future.

This bill will give the government explicit authority to bypass the regulator when it brings forward new transmission projects. These projects could be very expensive; they could be totally cost-ineffective. They could be projects that are driven politically by a cabinet that is responding to economic demands of big players in the energy sector.

We were in estimates yesterday, and I asked the minister about whether Hydro One would be allowed to go ahead with a transmission project given the cabinet push for a transmission project and the sidelining of the Ontario Energy Board. What he said to me was interesting. He didn’t think we should necessarily think it would be Hydro One that would build these transmission projects. There may well be other companies, power players in North America, maybe power players globally, that want to put in transmission lines.

As you may well be aware, Speaker, the way the market, the electricity system, works in Ontario, is that, if a company like Hydro One puts in a transmission project, its ability to profit goes up. It gets to reclaim about 9% profit on that. Whether it’s helpful to the people of this province, whether it’s good for the energy system or the electricity system is, by the way, not central to this system.

What we’ve had historically—and I will admit there have been flaws and there will be flaws with anything that we have in terms of energy provision—is a system where governments have tried to focus on meeting the needs of the economy and the people of Ontario. That is going away. This government has decided that what’s good for investors is something that Ontario will have to live with. This bill will aid this government in privatizing Hydro One and allowing privatization of utilities across Ontario.

Right now, the government has all the power it needs to initiate and champion priority transmission projects. What it’s doing with this bill is giving the power to bypass the OEB and bypass public hearings where consumer advocates and those who represent major power companies, major manufacturing and processing companies would no longer have the opportunity to question whether or not the project was needed in the first place. We’ve had that happen already here in Ontario.

I’ll get into that later when we talk about smart meters and how the government completely bypassed the regulatory process and burdened us with a $2-billion bill for smart meters that produce virtually no savings and don’t allow the government to meet its target for reducing peak demand. The government has already gone down this road. It has shown that it can’t be trusted to bring forward policies that are allowed to be tested in open hearings with people who know the field, who can question and take apart bad projects.

The OEB is required to review and approve private sales of transmission companies to make sure they’re in the public interest. If the government is sincere about wanting to strengthen the OEB’s ability to protect consumers, it would take the whole sale of Hydro One and put it before the OEB for a hearing. Now frankly, I don’t think it should be privatizing it at all—not a moment, not a bit should be privatized.

But even using the government’s own logic, a sale like this needs to be put into a public forum where it can be dissected and those who propose it can actually be forced to put the numbers on the table to show that it’s valid or not valid, and be forced to defend their theories about how a private market works in the electricity sector. But they’re not going to do that. They’re going to let this whole thing go through, and after all the horses have left the barn, kick the barn door closed and say, “Well, God, we took care of that.”

Bill 112 also proposes to change how consumer interests are represented at the OEB hearings. We have to ask—because it’s not spelled out in this legislation—exactly what they have in mind. Is the government getting ready to stop paying money to people who intervene on the part of consumers and put in their own little government-owned watchdog? It’s an open question, not answered in the legislation or in the numerous discussions that are taking place more widely.

The bill attempts to reform the electricity retailing industry, but this is a predatory industry, and it is one that needs to be phased out, not reformed. My colleague from Kenora–Rainy River introduced a bill to phase out these predatory retailers. If the government really wants to protect consumers, they should follow the member from Kenora–Rainy River’s private member’s bill. We debated this a number of years ago—it might have been five or six years ago—the last time the Electricity Consumer Protection Act was before us. Our caucus at the time said to the government, “You can’t reform these guys.

You can only shut down an operation that doesn’t bring benefit to the people of Ontario. That’s the way to protect consumers.” They wouldn’t go there. They brought in rules that they said would protect consumers. We said at the time, “You’ll be back because this won’t protect consumers.” It hasn’t.

These further steps won’t protect consumers. They may remove some irritation; that remains to be seen. But frankly, when you have an industry that only exists to make money for those people who are selling energy—that does not, in fact, reduce the bills for consumers; in fact, it adds to their monthly expenses—then you have to ask, why on earth does this exist? What’s the utility, what’s the use to the people of Ontario who are already facing severe problems trying to pay their hydro bills?

In their recent review of this industry, the Ontario Energy Board could not find a single fixed-rate contract that saved the consumer any money. But at the same time, energy retailers impose a cost on all of us, because we have to pay for the policing and enforcement of the rules that are in place now. Bill 112 would increase those regulatory and enforcement costs. Predatory industries are operating not in the interests of the people of Ontario, and their time to go has come.

I want to move over to the comments made by the Minister of Energy when he spoke to this bill on the 24th of September. I have to say it has been interesting this morning, watching members of the government go after the member for Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke, because the minister ranged just as widely when he spoke. In fact, I was talking to that member the other day, and we both agreed that what the minister had done was set a framework where you could basically bring in anything when you discuss this bill, because there were no constraints on where he was meandering—none.

I want to speak first to one of the phrases that this government has been using, and I’ll quote the minister: “This legislation moves forward one of the vital pillars of our electricity modernization plan announced last spring....”

Now, “modernization plan” is a code word, or a waffle word, that we have learned over the last few years. That’s what privatization is when the Liberals talk about it before an election. They talk about modernization. They mean “selling it off”; getting rid of the public interest, bringing investors into the mix so that decisions about our future are made by how much an investor can make, not by what we need to build our economy and run our homes.

The minister went on: “As announced in April, our government is broadening the ownership of Hydro One....” Right now, Hydro One is owned by the people of Ontario. Across this province, from Kenora to Kingston, from Timmins to Windsor, the people of Ontario, as a body, own this corporation, and their ownership is going to be cut back dramatically so that a number of large corporations will be able to buy chunks of our electricity system.

So when the minister talks about broadening ownership, he’s talking about cutting out the people of Ontario and giving opportunities to investors on the London Stock Exchange, New York Stock Exchange, Tokyo—take your pick—people who operate globally, to buy up our electricity system. He’s taking what has been our birthright, something built by generations before us, and making sure that companies all over the world can own and control it. “Broadening ownership” can only be seen as an Orwellian term when it is used to describe what is going on with the sale of Hydro One.

The minister talks about the need to get money for infrastructure. I want to point out to you, Speaker, because I’ve listened to the Premier—she has talked about spending $130 billion over a decade. This sale is projected to bring in $4 billion.

Speaker, you don’t sell the plumbing in your house so that you can get wiring. You don’t sell your garage so you can pave the driveway. You don’t do those kinds of things, because the operation of a household, or the operation of an economy, requires many vital pieces of infrastructure. The ownership of Hydro One is vital to our ability to set our own course economically for the future.

I like the way the minister put this: “It is important to recognize that these billions of dollars in proceeds will pay down debt and pay for infrastructure, and that will be done without borrowing, without adding new taxes or without cutting important programs.”

It’s magic. How is it that government previously—how is it that during the Second World War, when Canada and Ontario were facing a great challenge on a global scale, we didn’t have to sell off our vital infrastructure? How is it that through the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s, when we were building much of modern Ontario’s infrastructure, we weren’t selling off these assets?

Sir Adam Beck, the person who spearheaded the development of Ontario Hydro and spearheaded the development of public power in this province, was well aware that there was huge money to be made in the privatization of the hydro system. He warned consistently that there would be attacks to break off pieces of that system so some investors could make a fortune, and so the people of Ontario would be forced to pay more.

I have to ask, if selling off Hydro One is so good—it’s magic; there’s no debt; there are no taxes; it’s fabulous—is it going to stop there? Ontario Power Generation? I’m sure you could get a buck for that. This building? It’s got great real estate potential. There could be a lot of condos in this building if you designed it right. Are we going to sell off schools? Are we going to sell off roads? Ah, roads: Yes, the government is a bit sensitive about roads. They saw what happened when the Tories sold off the 407.

However, Speaker, let’s look at the reality. This government is selling off critical pieces of infrastructure, undermining our ability to control our future, and talking on and on and on about the need to get this money. This doesn’t make sense.

The minister says the Ontario Energy Board is a central part of this focus on protecting the public interest, that the independent agency has the power to approve or disapprove rate increases. This board doesn’t review the Independent Electricity System Operator. It didn’t review the Ontario Power Authority when it made power deals with Bruce Power, which impact the electricity rate. They didn’t review the gas plants in Oakville or Mississauga, which had a substantial impact on our energy rates. This government has tried to make as much of the electricity system outside of the regulatory framework as possible. They want to continue on in this bill.

Speaker, this government has a huge public relations problem. More than three quarters of the people in this province oppose the sale of Hydro One and it is doing everything it can, putting out as much smoke as it can, putting mirrors up on street corners, lots of smoke and mirrors to try and confuse people about what’s really happening.

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: No.

Mr. Peter Tabuns: It is indeed, sir. It is indeed, Mr. Speaker.

The minister went on: “We have heard a great deal of baseless, unmitigated spin by members opposite that a utility like Hydro One, as its ownership is broadened”—that Orwellian word again—“would see rates rise as a result of broadening ownership.”

This government doesn’t understand, even though the facts are there to be seen, what privatization does to hydro rates.

Nova Scotia privatized its hydro system in 1992. It’s looking at the highest rates in the country, up there, contending with Ontario. Ontario has seen a sharp increase in its rates since the Liberals came to power in 2003 because it continued the privatization schemes of the Conservatives. What it did was slice by slice by slice. Ontario Power Generation couldn’t build any new generation, they couldn’t engage in renewable energy, and all the new power generation that came on stream was privatized—or virtually all, Speaker. We’ve seen the rates go up. We know they’re going to go up even more dramatically.

This government has ignored the track record of the last 12 years and the impact of privatization on Ontario. They’ve ignored the impact outside the province. When we look at Manitoba or Quebec, where the people and governments of those provinces have wisely retained ownership of the electricity system in their own hands, they have the lowest hydro rates in Canada.

Speaker, there’s always a mix of technology and ownership when you talk about electricity rates, but the big difference between us, Quebec and Manitoba is this ongoing privatization and another great leap forward for private ownership of Ontario’s infrastructure.

The minister talked about the Ontario Energy Board and how in the last six months there had been a reduction in the cost of gas that was sold by Enbridge and Union Gas. Now, you may well be aware of this, Speaker; I’m hopeful that the minister is: Those distribution utilities, Enbridge and Union Gas, charge for their delivery. They charge for their system of pipes, compressors and their service.

Generally speaking, though, they pass through the cost of gas. They passed through a whopping increase two years ago, and as the price of gas has declined, they are bringing down that price. It wasn’t that the Ontario Energy Board went and rattled their cages and said, “You’ve got to cut your prices.” No, there was already a system in place, a pass-through of costs, and that is all we saw with the decision earlier this year. If the minister is saying that the Ontario Energy Board has the power to roll back all those increases, he’s ignoring the reality on the ground with the OEB.

Interestingly, as well, the minister says, “To help streamline and clarify the ability of utilities to expand their business beyond electricity delivery, this legislation will provide greater scope to engage in non-utility activities and to participate in the many services related to the energy sector.” Well, Speaker, as I understand it right now, these utilities can engage in conservation programs. They can put in place renewable power. A number of them have put in their own solar panels. But this is a far more problematic step.

A number of months ago, the minister was quoted as saying that one of the good things that may come out of this is that these increasingly privatized utilities will also be able to take over water delivery. The idea that we’ve privatized electricity and water, two essential services in this society, is one that people should recoil from, one that they should be shocked by. But this government is planning to change the tax rules so that smaller utilities can be purchased by Hydro One, this looming large, private giant in the electricity system, or by other privatized utilities or utilities that become privatized, bringing in private capital, expanding beyond electricity into water delivery.

That has got to make people pause. It has got to make people very concerned. If you ask people in Ontario if they want Hydro One privatized, 83% are against. If you suggested—and this is a reasonable conclusion from the trajectory this government is going on—that there will be privatization of water services as well, you would be a lot closer to 100%.

This government wants Hydro One and other utilities to engage in a wide variety of business activities. The difficulty for any regulator is going to be separating which money gets assigned where—because it may well be that a private electricity company, a utility like Hydro One, decides to get into a venture in the United States. In fact, that has been contemplated in a number of discussions we’ve heard in this House. Let’s say it’s losing money there—can’t make money on that. Very sharp accountants can bump up rates in Ontario to help pay for those losses elsewhere, and it can be extraordinarily difficult for a regulator to disentangle that whole mess.

This government is continuing to make life more difficult for Ontarians, and the privatization of Hydro One is going to be a significant part of that making life more difficult. This bill is designed to increase the cover that the government needs to proceed with its plans.

Right now, when a utility comes before the OEB with a proposal for a rate increase, school boards are allowed to attend and challenge that rate increase, because it will reduce the amount of money available for education. People who represent low-income energy consumers can go before the energy board and challenge the increase. Major power consumers can go before the board and challenge the increase.

No system is perfect; trials are not perfect, but a hearing in an open tribunal, where the decision-makers can be questioned under oath, where documents can be demanded, presented, reviewed and dissected, gives us the best chance of getting at the truth. The government is setting things up so that that open hearing process, making it possible for advocates to actually fight on behalf of consumers, may well be set aside. Speaker, that should worry you; it should worry your constituents.

I want to just say, the last point that the minister made was “the legislation before you today would give cabinet the power to designate key transmission corridors to expedite their construction.” As I said at the beginning, the Ontario Energy Board would no longer be able to question whether a given transmission corridor made sense for the system as a whole. They would only be able to determine whether or not the money spent to build this new corridor was reasonable or unreasonable.

Speaker, you’ve been around the block a few times. You know that very powerful companies have the ability to speak to cabinet, speak to governments, and say to them, “We desperately need this, and, you know what, if we don’t get this, we may have to cut back on employment or investment in other parts of Ontario.” So, in fact, the potential is, with a very large private Hydro One, controlled very likely by interests across North America and elsewhere in the world, they may well come to the cabinet and say, “We need this transmission project. We don’t want to have to justify whether or not it’s viable.

We don’t want to have to justify whether or not it’s necessary. Our investors need the return. You override the OEB. Use that bypass mechanism that you put forward in the legislation, and let us build it so we can make more money in this province.” It would be very, very difficult for the province to resist. That is the danger in this bill.

The minister’s comments were useful, as I have noted, but I also want to talk a little more on background. Right now, under

section 92 of the Ontario Energy Board Act, no one may construct a transmission or distribution line without OEB approval, which in most cases requires a public hearing and formal review. This approval under

section 96 of the act must be given if the OEB believes the project is “in the public interest.” That’s the standard. That’s our concern—not does this make the investors and Hydro One richer, but is it in the public interest?

Subsection 96(2) of the act defines the public interest as “the interests of consumers with respect to prices and the ... reliability and quality of electricity service.” In some cases, the public interest may also be considered with respect to “the promotion of the use of renewable energy sources.”

This bill allows the cabinet to bypass this public interest needs test by making an order declaring that a transmission line is needed as a priority project. If such a designation is made, Bill 112 says that the OEB “shall accept that the construction, expansion or reinforcement is needed when forming its opinion under

section 96.” This is an extraordinary power and an extraordinary removal of public oversight.

I want to talk about an example from recent history in Ontario that shows why you need to actually have a review of a business case for a project like this go before the Ontario Energy Board, and I’ll talk about the smart meters. Some may have seen the 2014 annual report from the Office of the Auditor General. She did a very solid job of tracking the history of this project, noting how billions were spent with no savings realized, targets for reduction in peak demand not met and how the public interest was not served,

whereas in other jurisdictions, people did look carefully at what was being done and did take a pass.

The Auditor General writes, “The government announced smart metering in April 2004, and shortly thereafter the Minister of Energy issued a directive to the OEB under the Ontario Energy Board Act, 1998.

The directive required the OEB to develop an implementation plan to achieve the government’s targets of 800,000 smart meter installations by 2007 and complete coverage for all residential and small business ratepayers by 2010.” Not only was the Ontario Energy Board bypassed when it should have been doing an assessment, a business case for whether or not smart meters made sense in Ontario, made sense for ratepayers, they became part of the planning process. Their ability to actually critically assess what was going on was removed—“No hearing, and you’re now part of the implementation, not the regulation.”

That, Speaker, was a very substantial problem. The ministry didn’t complete any cost-benefit analysis or business case prior to making the decision to mandate the installation of smart meters. Zip, zero, nada—no business case before they engaged in a project that has cost $2 billion. Other jurisdictions, including British Columbia, Germany, Britain and Australia, all assessed the cost-effectiveness and feasibility of their smart metering programs before they went forward.

In Germany, the government decided that in fact, for a small consumer, someone who’s got a one- or two-bedroom house, it just didn’t make sense. They didn’t consume enough energy for the smart meter to pay for itself, as opposed to giving them a loan or a grant to upgrade their insulation, upgrade their windows, ensuring that they actually could consume less energy. Germany didn’t do what we did. They didn’t take on this massive debt. They are putting in some smart meters, but they’re rolling them out where it makes economic sense. In Ontario, the Liberal government bypassed the Ontario Energy Board, didn’t do the analysis, and so we got stuck.

There was a subsequent cost-benefit analysis done.

The Auditor General writes, “After the government announced the rollout of smart metering in April 2004, the ministry” then—I’m adding the word “then”—“prepared a cost-benefit analysis of smart metering, and submitted it to cabinet in October 2005.” This is after the instructions were given to get rolling. “However, the analysis was flawed; its projected net benefits of approximately $600 million over 15 years were significantly overstated by at least $512 million because it excluded an annual net increase in the projected operating costs of distribution companies.” In other words, the net benefits should have been reflected as only $88 million over 15 years.

There’s a big difference between half a billion and $80 million, and the people in our ridings, the people in your riding, are paying the cost of a decision that didn’t involve the kind of business case analysis you need when you spend money to buy a house or buy a car. They didn’t even do that.

This province has been stuck with this extraordinarily expensive system that the Auditor General says didn’t deliver the goods. She noted that 77,000 ratepayers with smart meters paid set rather than time-of-use rates because they were paying money to some electricity retailer. Their consumption patterns were about the same as those on time-of-use rates. In other words, the impact of the smart meters was minimal.

Speaker, there’s much more that I have to say. I’ve got a little time left. I know that we’re coming to the end of this period this morning. I thank you for your indulgence.

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): I’d like to thank the member from Toronto–Danforth. His entire presentation came toward me. Well done.

This House stands recessed until 10:30 this morning.

The House recessed from 1015 to 1030.

Introduction of Visitors

Mr. Monte McNaughton: I’m really excited to announce that members of Ontario’s Hispanic community will be joining us for question period today: Mirtha Coronel; Dr. Felipe Gonzalez, who is the president of the Hispanic Pastors Association of Canada; Pastor Jose Arias and his wife, Pastor Deysi Arias; and Pastor Morena Monico.

Mr. Wayne Gates: It’s with great pleasure and honour, actually, that I welcome my sister Irene Lowell to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Following up with your suggestion from yesterday, I know that Jamie Lim from the Ontario Forest Industries Association will be here today, so we welcome her.

We also invite people to the reception tonight here in the building with the Ontario Forest Industries Association.

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson: I’m pleased to welcome, from home, two wonderful people, John and Lou Cull. It’s great to have you here today.

Ms. Peggy Sattler: I’m very pleased to welcome my new constituency assistant, all the way from London, Matt Gilbert.

M me Marie-France Lalonde: Il me fait un grand plaisir d’avoir deux invitées aujourd’hui : M me Andrée Myette et M me Anick Tremblay. Je connais très bien les parents de M me Myette, et je voudrais la présenter ici en Chambre. M me Tremblay travaille pour moi. Donc, une grande bienvenue.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Merci beaucoup.

Further introductions? The Minister of Health and Long-Term Care.

Hon. Eric Hoskins: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If you’ll bear with me, I have several introductions. Of course, our page captain today is Jaleelah Ammar, and her mother, Marie, and brother Hasan are in the gallery joining us today.

I’m also happy to welcome Faces and Voices of Recovery, or FAVOR, to question period today. FAVOR Canada helps individuals who are struggling with addiction, and their families, connect to the right services and supports. Please join me as we help FAVOR celebrate and recognize September as Recovery Month.

I’d also like to introduce Paul Zimmerman, who is father to my extremely talented policy adviser—she wrote this, but she is extremely talented—Shannon Zimmerman. Welcome to question period.

Mr. Jack MacLaren: We had seven members of our party this morning at breakfast with the Ontario Forest Industries Association downtown. They’re having a reception this afternoon from 4 until 7, and I’d invite all members to join the forestry industry at their reception.

Mrs. Marie-France Lalonde: On behalf of the Minister of Finance, Charles Sousa, the MPP from Mississauga South, it gives me great pleasure to introduce in the House today our page captain Duha Muhammad and her mother, Nora Hindy. She’s here in our members’ gallery. Welcome.

Mr. Arthur Potts: It gives me great pleasure to recognize my friend Craig Brockwell, and Carole from OECTA, in the gallery on this side. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Welcome. Further introductions?

Oral Questions

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. Patrick Brown: My question is for the Premier. The Premier has failed to hold herself to the high standard expected from the Premier’s office. The Premier has failed to hold the staff to the highest standard that Ontario deserves. Two thirds of Ontarians believe her deputy chief of staff, Pat Sorbara, should resign because of the alleged bribery.

Ms. Sorbara is on tape, telling Mr. Olivier that if he stepped down as the Sudbury candidate, the government would be very open to a job in the constit office for him.

Sorbara also said, “Whether it’s a full-time or”—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Sorry for the interruption. There are debates going on between both sides, and it needs to stop while the questions and the answers are being put.

Mr. Patrick Brown: Ms. Sorbara also said that “whether it’s a full-time or a part-time job in a constit office, whether it is appointments, supports or commissions,” there are a lot of options.

Mr. Speaker, did the Premier instruct Pat Sorbara to offer Olivier an array of options?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Good morning, Mr. Speaker, and good morning to the—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Excuse me. We will be starting quickly with individuals. It stops.

Carry on, please.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. As I have said in this Legislature a number of times, I have been open with the Legislature, I’ve been open with the media and I’ve been open with the public about the allegations related to the Sudbury by-election.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Just answer—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Member from Renfrew, come to order.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I have answered 102 questions on the subject in this House. I have addressed those questions in dozens of interactions with the media.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Leeds–Grenville, come to order.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: There is an issue that is now before the courts and we’re going to let that process unfold as it should.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Patrick Brown: Again to the Premier: The Premier has stated over and over again that there won’t be criminal charges against Pat Sorbara. But frankly, that’s nothing to celebrate, because the people of Ontario already know, and they’ve reached their own conclusions after listening to those tapes, after hearing Ms. Sorbara say, “You’re being asked to do the ... favour I guess to make the sacrifice this time, and that also can go a long way, in terms of opening up options....”

Mr. Speaker, we’ll stop asking the questions if the Premier actually says yes or no. Did the Premier instruct Pat Sorbara—yes or no—to ask Mr. Olivier to step aside for those options?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I did not ask for any comments when I asked you to be seated.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Just so that we’re clear—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Renfrew and the member from Leeds–Grenville.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: —Pat Sorbara’s counsel informed her that she will not be facing any criminal charges. I understand that the Elections Ontario investigation is ongoing. We have co-operated with the investigation and we will continue to do that.

I would refer the Leader of the Opposition to Hansard between February 17 and April 2. I answered questions over and over again.

Mr. Steve Clark: Answer the question: Yes or no.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Leeds–Grenville is warned.

Finish, please.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I have answered questions 102 times. Again, I refer the Leader of the Opposition to between February 17 and April 2 of this year. Hansard is there, and he can see my comments.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I understand the seriousness of this situation, and I’m going to try to make sure that we get questions and answers put properly. For those who are trying to signal to others to continue to make the House even more raucous, I will name you. I want this place to have those questions and answers done properly.

Final supplementary?

Mr. Patrick Brown: Again to the Premier: If Pat Sorbara isn’t being charged criminally, then there is no excuse for evading these questions.

We know the Premier called Andrew Olivier on December 11. We know Pat Sorbara called Andrew Olivier on December 12. We know that on December 10, Pat Sorbara called the deputy director of HR, in the Premier’s office, responsible for public appointments.

It’s clear the Premier will not answer any questions in the House about her role in this scandal. Will the Premier at least confirm, if she is subpoenaed at a trial—if you’re not going to answer here, will you answer at the trial of the criminal corruption of your office?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I have answered questions in this House; I’ve answered questions in the media. I will continue to co-operate with authorities, as I have done. There is a matter before the courts and I’m not going to comment further on it, Mr. Speaker.

Privatization of public assets

Mr. Patrick Brown: My question is for the Minister of Energy. Of the many municipal resolutions passed with regard to the proposed sale of Hydro One, one reads as follows:

“Whereas in spite of widespread public concern about the impact on Ontario citizens of privatizing Hydro One, the government of Ontario will go ahead with the sale;

“Whereas residents of Ottawa depend on Hydro One for their supply of electricity, and there is a general public interest in retaining Hydro One as a publicly owned asset;

“Therefore

be it resolved that the city of Ottawa express its concern to the Premier of Ontario and the Minister of Environment and Energy about the negative consequences of privatizing Hydro One;....”

The Minister of Energy supported this resolution in Ottawa as mayor in 2002. Can the minister explain why he’s no longer prepared to stand up and fight for the people of Ottawa about their concern over this fire sale?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister of Energy?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: Comparing the effort that the Progressive Conservatives did in 2002 to try to privatize Hydro One to what we’re doing now is trying to compare a pig to an angel. The reality is, they did it illegally. They got shut down because they did it illegally. Secondly, they were doing 100% of it and 100% of control was being given away. It’s absolutely different from what we’re doing now.

What we’re doing now is, we’re doing it in a way that is responsible. We are doing it in a way that’s protecting the public interest, and we’re doing it in a way that will invest in infrastructure. Mr. Speaker—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Finish, please.

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: That government in 2002 was investing $2 billion a year on average in infrastructure. We have been investing $11.5 billion—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Patrick Brown: Mr. Speaker, I’m not sure the Minister of Energy believes his own answer, so let’s go a little further.

The story doesn’t end there. In fact, the resolution was also supported by the Attorney General, who was an Ottawa city councillor at the time.

To speak specifically to the resolution, it says: “Be it further resolved that the city of Ottawa urge the government of Ontario not to proceed with any further proposals relating to the sale of provincially owned electricity assets before there has been an opportunity”—and hear this—“an opportunity for a full and public debate on this issue, both in the Legislature and elsewhere;....”

We all know there’s been no consultation outside the Legislature this time around. Can the Minister of Energy explain why previously he supported public consultation outside the Legislature and he doesn’t today?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister of Energy?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: Mr. Speaker, I can’t believe the words coming out of the mouth of the Leader of the Opposition. I want to re-create some words that came out of his mouth. Number one, “I generally believe the private sector can do a better job than the public sector. I ... think market conditions would be helpful for a lot of government agencies.” And for the member for Carleton–Mississippi Mills: “We need to look seriously at privatizing the delivery of electricity.”

His predecessor, Mr. Hudak, in effect adopted a policy, a white paper on the energy sector, Mr. Speaker. That white paper proposed broadening the ownership of Ontario Power Generation and Hydro One. Not only that, it said that they would rely on the Ontario Energy Board to protect rates.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Mr. Patrick Brown: Again to the Minister of Energy: Because I appreciate his words so much on this topic, I’ll read further on in this resolution:

“Be it further resolved that the city of Ottawa urge the government of Ontario to conduct a broad public consultation process on the sale of provincially owned electricity assets, that this consultation process include the views of municipalities which depend on Hydro One for the transmission of power, and that the results of this consultation process be made known to the public before the provincial government proceeds with any further plans....”

Well, Mr. Speaker, despite the pledge of the former mayor of Ottawa to include and engage municipalities, 166 municipalities have passed resolutions opposing the sale, largely because of a lack of public consultation. How can the Minister of Energy say “engage” and “consult” municipalities—and today say you don’t care?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister.

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: Speaker, if my government was trying to privatize Hydro One the way they were trying to privatize Hydro One, I would object too.

On the other hand, we have been very open, very transparent, in terms of what our agenda is. Again, I will say, we have made it very, very clear that we are going to repurpose our assets, including energy assets and Hydro One. Moving forward, we are going to do exactly that for the right reason. The reason is that every municipality across Canada is in an infrastructure deficit. Our Premier—with a 10-year program of $130 billion, of which the proceeds will contribute, is a smart thing to do for our community, for quality of life and to keep our economy competitive.

By-election in Sudbury

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is to the Premier. The Premier has said that Mr. Lougheed “is not government or Liberal Party staff. He speaks for himself.” But when Mr. Lougheed, in a recorded conversation, said, “I come to you on behalf of the Premier,” there certainly seems to be more to the story.

This statement by the Premier is already on the public record, so there’s no reason why she can’t answer the question as to whether or not she still stands by that statement: that Mr. Lougheed wasn’t acting on her instructions or the instructions of anybody else in her office.

My question to the Premier is: Does she still stand by that statement?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I will say, again, that I refer the leader of the third party to Hansard. I have answered 102—I guess it’s, I don’t know, 105 questions now on this issue. I will continue to co-operate with the authorities.

The fact is, this is a matter that is now before the courts, and I’m not going to comment further.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: The Premier said yesterday as well that she’s answered all the questions that she’s been asked by the opposition, but there have always been giant holes in her story, Speaker. The Premier says that Mr. Lougheed was a rogue operative, but the tapes of conversations with Mr. Lougheed and the Premier’s deputy chief of staff tell a story of backroom Liberal conversations that involved the Premier and the member for Sudbury.

Does this Premier still stand by her statement that Mr. Lougheed was not acting on her instructions or the instructions of anybody else in her office?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: There is a process that is taking place outside of this place. This is a matter now that is before the courts, and I’m not going to comment further.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: If we look back through political history, we see time and time again that it isn’t the crime that gets the politician in trouble, it’s the cover-up. The Premier didn’t used to be so shy about absolving herself of any responsibility, but now that she might be sworn in before a judge, she doesn’t seem so sure anymore.

The Premier shouldn’t have to hide behind the courts to tell the people of Ontario that nothing her office did was illegal. Will the Premier tell Ontarians that nothing she or members of her staff did was against the law, or is she worried that this would be proven to be untrue in a court of law?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Although I’m not asking for this, I just want to caution about the word usage. I know that it was in a general sense, but it was close, so I just remind the member.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Government House leader.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Again, Speaker, I’m going to remind the leader of the third party—in fact, all members in this House—not to solicit members in the Legislature to interfere in a judicial proceeding. Now, I know the leader of the third party takes offence at me telling her what the rules are, but these are constitutional rules, and we should abide by them. I refer her to a Supreme Court decision from 1997, the Tobiass case, and this is what the Supreme Court noted in that decision: “A well-known rule of parliamentary practice holds that no member of the House of Commons should comment upon any matter that is pending before the courts.”

She may not take my word for it. She should take the advice of the Supreme Court of Canada, and should not interfere in a matter which is pending before the courts.

Privatization of public assets

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My next question is also for the Premier. The Premier promised Ontarians that the process of selling off Hydro One would be “transparent, professional and independently validated.” Yet, they’ve removed all oversight of the process and refused to provide any evidence whatsoever that the sale will actually benefit Ontarians.

Hon. Brad Duguid: That’s not true at all. Stop making things up.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Minister of Economic Development.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: It was bad enough that the Premier wasn’t up front about her plan to sell off Hydro One with the public, but now she’s refusing to be transparent, refusing to be professional and refusing the independent validation that she had promised Ontarians.

Will this Premier actually be transparent and allow for public consultations and an independent review of the sell-off of Hydro One before the first tranche is sold?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I think it’s very important to be clear about how we are broadening the ownership of Hydro One and the transparency and oversight that we put in place, so I just want to go through that, Mr. Speaker. This plan was included in our 2014 budget and the 2014 platform. The advisory council issued an interim report and a final report. Both were publicly available. We held a technical briefing for both opposition parties and the media. To further ensure transparency, we brought in Denis Desautels, who’s a former AG of Canada, to oversee the IPO.

The member opposite knows that publicly traded companies are subject to different oversight rules and mechanisms than crown corporations and that Hydro One will be regulated by the Ontario Business Corporations Act, the Ontario Securities Act and the Ontario Energy Board. So there are protections in place in terms of oversight, and we have provided for transparency.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: This Premier, in this chamber, promised to be open and transparent, but not only do we have the same old Liberal behaviour, this Premier has taken arrogance to new heights in the province of Ontario. The Attorney General, the Ombudsman, the Information and Privacy Commissioner, and the five other independent officers of the Legislature all criticized the sell-off of Hydro One because the Premier has removed the sale from public scrutiny. This is an unprecedented action by Ontarians’ watchdogs, and it’s been completely ignored by this arrogant Premier.

Will the Premier allow for public consultations and an independent review of the sell-off of Hydro One before the first tranche goes on to the market?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Mr. Speaker, I know that the leader of the third party actually knows that there are different mechanisms in place for the new Hydro One company, because it’s a different kind of company.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Member from Hamilton East–Stoney Creek, come to order.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: It will be regulated differently. It will continue to be regulated by the Ontario Energy Board, but it will also be regulated by the Ontario Business Corporations Act and the Ontario Securities Act. They will have to file information with the Ontario Securities Commission and they will have to disclose information in accordance with that. But as I say, the Ontario Energy Board will continue to have oversight and will approve electricity rates.

So the leader of the third party, I know, is not happy with this move. But the leader of the third party has absolutely no plan. She has put forward no proposals for how she would build the infrastructure that we are building as a result of taking this action and others. We know that every municipality, every community in this province needs infrastructure building. That’s why we’re moving on this.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: The Premier of this province should not have to cover the sale of Hydro One behind such a veil of secrecy. If she believes that the sell-off will benefit Ontario families and businesses, then she should be comfortable giving Ontarians the transparency that she had promised them. But since the Premier has removed all independent oversight, it’s not surprising that the people of Ontario are fearful that they’re getting a raw deal with this sale.

Whether it’s the Sudbury bribery scandal or the sell-off of Hydro One, it seems that this Premier does all of her governing in a Liberal backroom away from public scrutiny.

Will this Premier do the right thing and allow for public consultation or an independent review of the sell-off of Hydro One before it’s sold?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I’ve gone through the measures we took to be clear with the people of Ontario that we were going to be looking at assets and that we were going to be repurposing assets in order to be able to invest in infrastructure—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Please finish.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Mr. Speaker, apparently what we said and did was clear enough that even the leader of the third party understood what was being contemplated. On July 9, 2014, she said, “The budget says in black and white that the government is looking at the sale of assets, ‘including ... crown corporations, such as Ontario Power Generation, Hydro One and the Liquor Control Board of Ontario.’”

She knew that there was a continuum of possibilities that we were looking at—and that is exactly what we did. We looked at possibilities, and we made a decision. In fact, the leader of the third party ran on the fiscal plan that we had put forward.

Privatization of public assets

Mr. Todd Smith: My question is for the Minister of Energy. In the House and in committee yesterday, the minister stated repeatedly that the government would retain control over Hydro One. However, when the minister was asked about Ontario jobs that could be lost to overseas companies due to the Hydro One sale, his answer was that he couldn’t speculate on what the new board at Hydro One or the future boards at Hydro One would do.

So when Ontarians are worried about rate hikes, the minister will brag about how much control the province has, but when he’s pressed about potential job losses, suddenly the board has all the control at Hydro One. Either the minister has the control to save these people’s jobs from executives who have a history of offshoring jobs to other countries, or he doesn’t have the control that he keeps telling the House and committee that he has. Why is he trying to have it both ways?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: The government has taken the necessary steps to ensure that Hydro One jobs remain here in Ontario. While Hydro One will operate like any other public company, reporting to its board of directors and shareholders, as part of budget 2014, our government amended the Electricity Act to ensure that head office, control centres and the operation of transmission and distribution systems remain right here in Ontario.

The infrastructure investment that has become possible as a result of broadening ownership will support 110,000 jobs per year right here in the province, with projects such as roads, bridges, transit systems, schools and hospitals across the province. In addition, Bill 112, which I understand that party is going to support, perhaps with some amendments, gives additional power to the Ontario Energy Board to protect the interests of the people of Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Todd Smith: Minister, that’s a bogus answer and you know it. What has happened in other jurisdictions where the CEO has come in is that he has cleaned out the headquarters. Sure, the shell remains; it’s a skeleton crew that remains at that headquarters building while IT jobs are shipped overseas.

The Hydro One sale terminates the province’s offshoring agreement, which protects the jobs of hundreds of people at energy in London, in Markham and right here in Toronto. Before the sale is even closed, the province’s directive that their jobs must stay in Ontario is history. It’s gone. That’s hundreds of good middle-class jobs on the block because this government can’t sell Hydro One fast enough.

Why is the government in such a hurry to let Hydro One’s new high-priced executives, making $4 million a year in compensation, move a bunch of good-paying, middle-class jobs out of this province, possibly even to other countries?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: I really want to focus on his words saying that it’s so much in a hurry. In 2013, we made it very, very clear before the election that we were going to repurpose assets. There was a good reason for that. It’s because there is an asset infrastructure deficit across the country. It’s about $120 billion.

In Ontario, this Premier is going to solve that problem with a 10-year program, $130 billion, and the repurposing of Hydro One with billions of dollars that will be invested in infrastructure. That’s billions of dollars that will not come from borrowing, that will not come from taxes, that will not come from reducing programs. It’s responsible fiscal management and I support it 100%.

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. Gilles Bisson: My question, through you, Speaker, is to the Premier.

When you read the transcripts of both Sorbara and Lougheed, it is pretty clear that there are conversations going on within the Premier’s office about how to approach Mr. Olivier in regard to getting him to step down from running as a candidate. Mr. Lougheed is clear, Mrs. Sorbara is clear, and you’re implicated in regard to what they have to say about what happened.

So here’s the question: Can you confirm, yes or no, that you’re involved in this particular issue and you’re actually the one who ordered these people to go and make the approach to Mr. Olivier and ask him to step down?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Government House leader.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Again, the member for Timmins–James Bay can try every which way to interfere in a court proceeding. We’re not going to engage in that unconstitutional practice. As I mentioned earlier, the Supreme Court has noted that there is a parliamentary practice not to speak to matters that are pending before the courts. Let me quote the Honourable Marc Rosenberg from his academic

article entitled “The Attorney General and the Prosecution Function on the Twenty-First Century.” This is what he said:

“The parameters of independence in the prosecution function are also firmly established, and have achieved the status of a constitutional convention....

“As Professor Edwards said, ‘It is now well recognized that any practice savouring of political pressure, either by the executive or Parliament, being brought to bear upon the law officers when engaged in reaching a decision in any particular case, is unconstitutional and is to be avoided at all costs.’”

I urge the member to avoid this unconstitutional urge at all costs.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Again, Mr. Speaker, through you to the Premier: It is pretty clear that Mrs. Sorbara said that the Premier didn’t want Mr. Olivier to think that he was in Glenn’s shadow, so she turned around and offered Mr. Olivier whatever it is that he would most want to do, just like Mr. Lougheed had done before that. We know that the Premier, Mrs. Sorbara, Mr. Lougheed and the member from Sudbury were all making plans behind the scenes. The recordings say that too. To me, this was a coordinated plan executed from out of the Premier’s office.

My question to the Premier is this: Who gave the order to offer Mr. Olivier a bribe?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: I find it ironic the opposition often accuses the government of not answering the question and here, they’re not listening to the answer and still continuing on with their prepared notes and urging the members of this House to break a constitutional convention.

Once again, this matter is before the courts. We’re not going to engage in trying to answer questions. This is not a court of law. This matter has to be decided by the judge and these issues will come there.

Let me just also refer you to what Justice Linden said in the Ipperwash Inquiry:

“Governments should not be allowed to influence specific law enforcement decisions or specific operational decisions of the police. These decisions are legitimately within the scope of police expertise and discretion. Government intervention in these areas risks both the appearance and reality of partisan or inappropriate political influences affecting the administration of justice and the rule of law.”

I once again urge the members opposite not to ask these questions because they’re unconstitutional.

Minimum wage

Mr. Arthur Potts: My question is to the Minister of Labour. Ontarians across the province continue to advocate for greater support for low- and middle-income earners. Minimum wage earners in my community of Beaches–East York are working hard to provide for their needs each and every day and they want to continue to be able to do so. But minimum wage earners are particularly hard hit by inflationary pressures in Ontario and they are trying to keep up.

Now, I know that many of my constituents were pleased with the increase in the minimum wage to $11 in 2014 and others have argued for immediate increases to even $15. But I understand that there will be changes to Ontario’s minimum wage very shortly, based on the very predictable changes we introduced last year.

Mr. Speaker, will the minister please give us an update on any changes that are coming to the minimum wage in Ontario?

Hon. Kevin Daniel Flynn: Thank you to the member for that excellent question. You will know that before we came into power the minimum wage was frozen in this province at $6.85 for eight long years. We knew we could do better than that. As the member knows, I was proud to announce last year that we took the politics out of determining Ontario’s minimum wage and we did this by annually tying that minimum wage increase to the rate of inflation.

The first increase following this legislation comes into effect tomorrow, Thursday, October 1. The general minimum wage will increase in this province from $11 to $11.25, making it the highest minimum wage of any province in this country. The minimum wage for students, for liquor servers, hunting and fishing guides and home workers will also increase. This is the ninth minimum wage increase since 2003 and it is part of our plan to make sure we have a fair society in this province.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Arthur Potts: This is of course extremely good news for all of Ontario and I want to say that I’m extremely proud of the work that this minister is doing in order to balance the different interests between employers and employees. He’s striking the right balance and we should all be supportive of that.

I’m also particularly proud of the work that our government has done, the hard work for those communities and those individuals who work very hard for themselves and their families, because these increases to the minimum wage do impact Ontarians across the province and will assist them in more ways than one.

As the minister mentioned, I remember when the minimum wage was stuck at $6.85 for over eight years. I was a consultant in labour relations back in those days and we’ve come a long way since then. Thursday, the change will represent a 64% increase since those days, and some are still calling for additional change.

Through you to the minister, Speaker: How was this method of increasing the minimum wage arrived at and what makes it such a preferable method for going forward?

Hon. Kevin Daniel Flynn: Speaker, my thanks again to the member for the question.

We’ve heard from experts, we’ve heard from workers, we’ve heard from business. They want stable and predictable increases to the minimum wage in this province. We’ve had recommendations from the Minimum Wage Advisory Panel and they advised the government on the best approach: to tie future minimum wage increases to inflation. And that’s exactly what we’ve done.

What that means is that each and every year, our government will announce the new minimum wage on April 1. Businesses then have six months to prepare for that, for the new minimum wage which comes into effect on October 1, the same as it’s doing this year. By doing this, we’re helping the vulnerable workers in our society cope with increases in their own cost of living but we’re providing predictability for Ontario businesses to plan for those payroll changes and ensuring we still have a strong economy in this province.

Privatization of public assets

Mr. John Yakabuski: My question is to the Minister of Energy.

Minister, despite massive public opposition to your plan to sell Hydro One, you seem unwilling to change your direction and provide Ontarians with the information they have every right to. Your government claims to be open and transparent, but the way you’ve conducted this sell-off of the crown jewel of our electricity system has shown that your words are empty and hollow.

Minister, you’re nearing Damascus. You still have a chance to redeem yourself. Will you commit to the people of Ontario, the actual owners of Hydro One, to hold off on this fire sale so that they can thoroughly examine this deal and render their judgment at the ballot box?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: First of all, they did render their judgment at the ballot box. We won the last election on the basis of repurposing our assets.

In terms of information, the opposition, the public, in fact, has been provided a 320-page prospectus that sets out more detail than anybody has ever seen with respect to Hydro One.

We actually are going through estimates, where every dollar that’s been spent in the ministry is under review and analysis by the opposition. Much of that has to do with the preparation and lead-up to the Hydro One project. Ed Clark, chair of the assets committee, has made himself available for extensive media interviews and answered all the questions five or six times in the minutest detail.

We have been sharing information. People knew that it was part of our agenda, and we’re implementing a mandate that we have.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. John Yakabuski: Speaker, for the minister to imply that they received a mandate to sell Hydro One in the 2014 election shows just how hopelessly arrogant this government has become.

Minister, the only reason you’re going to sell Hydro One on the auction block is because the Premier has maxed out the provincial credit cards and she can’t pay for infrastructure the way that every other Premier before her paid for infrastructure. That’s why the people of Ontario universally—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order.

Finish, please.

Mr. John Yakabuski: That’s why the people of Ontario universally oppose their plan to sell Hydro One. It does not pass the smell test. If it did, they would have campaigned vigorously on it during the 2014 general election, but they didn’t because they knew it would be a bad deal for Ontario ratepayers.

Minister, if you’re not willing to hold off on this fire sale, will you at least heed the call of our leader and the opposition and release all the reports and financial analysis to justify your dismantling of this vital public asset?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: The member mentions the level of spending for infrastructure. I indicated in an earlier answer that that government averaged $2 billion per year investment in infrastructure over the last three or four years of their term. We have been investing $11.5 billion.

When it comes to the electricity sector, they left us with a deficit of electricity. They left us with a deficit, a declining amount of generation and transmission, and we had to invest $34 billion to fix the mess they left us with.

Government services

Ms. Catherine Fife: My question is for the Premier. Today, there’s a media report that suggests this government has another SAMS outsourced computer problem on its hands. You’ll recall the SAMS program sent out incorrect social service payment amounts, or none at all, disrupting thousands of Ontarians’ lives, people who badly need the assistance. You’ll also recall, Mr. Speaker, that the minister responsible referred to the problem as a “small glitch,” and the Premier likened the fix to rebooting your BlackBerry, an astonishing answer.

Today, we learned that a computer formatting error prevented the province from collecting sales tax on used car sales last May, resulting in lost revenue of over $2 million.

An outside service provider that the government outsourced failed again. Is this government’s appetite for privatizing government services so great that it can continue to make these costly mistakes?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Finance.

Hon. Charles Sousa: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the question.

Unfortunately, there was an error that was created and, as a result, unreported taxes occurred and certain individuals didn’t pay their fair share. Some Ontarians prior to the error did pay their full share—certainly thereafter they did. As a result, we’ve taken measures to inform those who were affected. We’re going to have a number of individuals who are going to be available to them directly, and we’ve already taken the necessary steps to correct it so it doesn’t happen again.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Catherine Fife: Again to the Premier: Already the minister responsible is saying he has full confidence in the private services sector and that this was an isolated incident. Meanwhile, anyone who in good faith purchased a used vehicle last May is now left on the hook. How many of these so-called isolated incidents does the public need to suffer from this government?

Will this government demand accountability from its friends in the private sector, or will the government again put its head in the sand? Does this government have a new excuse for what went wrong here, or will the minister’s excuse be a gently used one?

Hon. Charles Sousa: Minister of Government Services.

Hon. David Orazietti: We’re obviously aware of the issue, and we have worked to correct that immediately.

The member opposite is referencing third-party providers. The reality is that the Ontario government doesn’t determine the value of used vehicles in the province of Ontario. That’s determined by industry and industry standards. We get that information on the value of these vehicles in terms of what we’re supposed to be charging for tax for used vehicles in the province of Ontario. That information is given to us through industry. It’s provided to the Ministry of Finance.

There’s an assessment made and that is entered into the computer database so that when individuals come in to purchase vehicles, register them, we are ensuring that they are paying the appropriate tax. This has not been a problem in the past; it was a problem for a brief period during the month of May. It was corrected immediately. We’re reaching out, to resolve this issue, to residents.

Equal opportunity

Mrs. Marie-France Lalonde: My question is for the minister responsible for women’s issues. Earlier this week, the Canadian Securities Administrators released a report on the number of women on the boards of TSX-listed corporations and in senior executive roles. They found that while we have seen some progress on this important matter since January, companies are still underutilizing the significant talent of women.

Mr. Speaker, can the minister please update the House on the measures the Women’s Directorate is taking to promote female leadership in the private sector?

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: I want to thank the member from Ottawa–Orléans because it’s an important question. She’s done tremendous work herself on boards and in the private sector, so I know she realizes the immense value of having women on corporate boards. Thank you for that.

As I think we all know, last December Ontario became the first Canadian jurisdiction to introduce comply-or-explain regulations for companies listed on the TSX. We did this to ensure that women are adequately represented in the executive suite.

We also know that this is very good for business. Companies without women on boards are missing out on a significant part of the talent pool.

Research tells us as well that gender diversity in corporate leadership is linked to improved governance and stronger performance on both financial and non-financial measures.

Just yesterday, I was so pleased to hear the CIBC announcing their own targets to increase women on their boards. That’s fantastic news.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

M me Marie-France Lalonde: J’aimerais remercier la ministre pour cette réponse.

Minister, Monday’s report found that only 14% of companies on the Toronto Stock Exchange have adopted a formal policy for improving their proportion of women on boards. Out of the 772 companies, 65% decided to not adopt a written diversity policy. The remaining 21% either have an unwritten policy or disclose a general policy without provisions that relate to women. As a woman, a former businesswoman and someone who sat on numerous boards, I found this very troubling.

Minister, I also know that just yesterday, there was a round table to discuss progress on the representation of women on boards, held by the Ontario Securities Commission.

Mr. Speaker, can the minister outline the current approach that our government is taking to ensure positive change with respect to women on boards?

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: Minister of Finance, please.

Hon. Charles Sousa: Thank you to the minister responsible for women’s issues and the member from Ottawa–Orléans for their leadership.

We appreciate Monday’s report from the Canadian Securities Administrators and the leadership of the Ontario Securities Commission with respect to yesterday’s round table.

We know that more work needs to be done to enhance equality in corporate boards. Ontario, in fact, is the first jurisdiction to develop the comply-or-explain regulation, and several other provinces have followed our lead since its introduction in December 2014. It’s because of this approach that we finally have better information on the number of women in corporate board positions, which will help us create policies to promote equality.

Our government is proud of the transparency this brings to corporate boardrooms, and we look forward to tracking further progress through future annual reports.

We know that a diversity and gender-equality increase in boards and in senior positions of management is not only good for our economy, it’s best for the companies as well.

Privatization of public assets

Mr. Victor Fedeli: My question is for the energy minister. Nowhere have the effects of your unaffordable energy policy been felt more than northern Ontario. Our winters are longer and colder, and those who rely on electric heat are now paying hundreds of dollars more per month in order to stay warm. In some cases, northerners are paying more for their hydro bill than for their mortgage. For some, it’s literally a choice of whether to heat or eat. Now, the Hydro One sale threatens to force those unaffordable hydro rates even higher.

How can this government, with any measure of conscience, be willing to force even more northerners into energy poverty?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: The member knows that Hydro One cannot raise its own rates. He, like the third party, has been crossing the province saying that rates are going to skyrocket because of the broadening of ownership of Hydro One. The Ontario Energy Board controls rates. We’ve gone over that over and over again.

Last week, the Supreme Court of Canada confirmed the extent of power that the Ontario Energy Board has over rates. The rates are controlled for every LDC—for every utility—including Hydro One, Ontario Power Generation, Union Gas and Enbridge. The whole sector is controlled. The Supreme Court was very, very clear. The Supreme Court upheld the right of the Ontario Energy Board to ensure consumers pay just and reasonable rates for electricity, even if that means challenging Ontario Power Generation or any other utility on expenditures like collective bargaining labour agreements.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Nothing the minister just said helps address the problem. His words are cold comfort to northerners struggling to keep the lights on because of this government’s disastrous energy policy.

Municipal councils all over the North, including several in my riding, have passed resolutions opposing the Hydro One sale. The news we revealed yesterday that this government lost $61 million on the Ontera sale gives northerners no confidence that this government can be trusted with the Hydro One sale.

Speaker, will the minister disclose all of the reports and financial analysis used to justify the Hydro One sale and provide proof it won’t send the hydro rates of northerners any higher?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: In a previous answer I indicated those areas where there’s been full disclosure and information provided. I refer to the mandate that this government has to repurpose assets, including the energy agencies.

There are programs for northern Ontario energy support, including the Northern Ontario Energy Credit. I wonder how many times the member has referred his constituents to that program. There’s also very significant support—and northern Ontario on the industrial sector has among the lowest rates in North America.

Ontario is in the middle of the pack in North American jurisdictions in terms of energy prices. Higher jurisdiction rates include Prince Edward Island, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, Florida, Massachusetts—

Mr. John Yakabuski: Prince Edward Island—and their 13 million residents?

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Your time is up, and the member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke is warned.

New question.

Pension plans

Mr. Wayne Gates: My question is to the Premier. On September 19, OLG locked out 1,000 workers across the province who are represented by Unifor. Workers at slots in Sudbury Downs as well as workers at Woodbine and in Brantford have been locked out. They have been negotiating with OLG to make sure that they get the pensions they paid for.

As this government moves ahead with more privatization, this time at OLG instead of Hydro, what these workers want is simple: They want to know that the pensions that they’ve been paying into for so long will be protected, the pensions that provide, in the Premier’s own words, “a secure and predictable income in retirement.”

Mr. Speaker, I want to know the same thing from the Premier: Why is your government allowing an attack on these Unifor workers’ existing pensions as you move ahead with more reckless privatization schemes?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Finance.

Hon. Charles Sousa: I appreciate the question.

OLG respects the collective bargaining process. Of course we did endeavour to treat all employees fairly and respectfully. As can be appreciated, the OLG modernization is a complex transformation. Both the government and OLG are focused on getting it right in order to benefit all Ontarians. We require that the new service providers keep the employees for a period of 12 months at their current locations and current positions and at the same rate of pay.

OLG is also requiring the service providers to continue to provide the same pension and benefits and also provide a registered pension plan for eligible employees after the 12-month period. OLG is prepared to go back to the bargaining table. We want to make certain, and remain hopeful, that all outstanding issues will be resolved as soon as possible.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Wayne Gates: To the member: OLG locked them out; let’s be clear on that.

This Premier talks a good game about supporting unions and the importance of pensions, but under her watch, we have seen nothing but disrespect for the pensions of hard-working Ontarians.

We are now seeing the same thing coming out of OLG—a refusal to recognize that these workers deserve to be treated fairly. This is after the Premier said, “The reward for a lifetime of hard work should not be poverty in your golden years.”

This lockout is having a devastating impact on these 1,000 families and their communities. When is the Premier going to step up and ensure that the OLG honours its pension obligations and doesn’t try to sell its workers down the river with reckless privatizing schemes?

Laughter.

Mr. Wayne Gates: And I don’t believe this is funny.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Minister?

Hon. Charles Sousa: The Minister of Labour.

Hon. Kevin Daniel Flynn: Thank you to the member for that excellent question. Ontario, as he will know, has an excellent record of dispute resolution. Negotiations by their nature are tough, but in Ontario, 90% of all agreements are reached without either strike or lockout.

We encourage the employer in this case and the union, Unifor, to make every effort to resolve their differences at the bargaining table. We’re confident still that by working together, the parties can reach a settlement, including the issues that the member has raised.

Speaker, the Ministry of Labour has a mediator involved in this issue. He’s going to remain available to assist the parties at the bargaining table with the hopes of achieving a resolution to these issues right at the bargaining table, where they belong.

Forest industry

Mrs. Kathryn McGarry: My question is for the Minister of Natural Resources and Forestry. Ontario was, in many ways, built by the forest industry. Many heritage buildings in my riding of Cambridge were built from local pine and oak stands.

The sector continues to play a key role in Ontario’s economy. In fact, MNRF employs fire rangers to protect Ontario’s forests. Forestry supports 170,000 working families across Ontario and contributes $11 billion to Ontario’s economy each year.

I know that the forestry industry was one of the industries hardest hit by the recession and that since then, the forestry industry has been working to transform their operations to continue to meet the needs of an ever-evolving market.

Through you, Speaker: Can the minister please explain what his ministry is doing to support our Ontario forestry industry?

Hon. Bill Mauro: I want to thank the member for the question. She’s right that in 2005-06, this particular industry was hammered by a series of variables that really did bring the industry to its knees for quite some time. In my home city of Thunder Bay, five or six mills right within the municipal boundary closed that had been long-time contributors to the economy of Thunder Bay, both pulp and papermills and sawmills.

There is some positive news now. The industry is coming back. We’re harvesting about three million more cubic metres of fibre than we were some time ago, although it is still an industry that I would say is very much challenged.

Over the span of that last eight or 10 years, we have done a great deal to support the industry. I would reference one example—and only one—in the time allotted to me in the first question, where we have provided this year up to $60 million of funding for roads programs in the province of Ontario for the forest industry. That brings that total to over $600 million—just one program of support that we have brought forward for this particular initiative.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mrs. Kathryn McGarry: Thank you, Minister, for your answer and your work on this file.

In the minister’s mandate letter from the Premier, the minister was tasked with working with the forest industry, First Nations communities and other partners to ensure that crown forest resources are being put to their best use in an economically, socially and environmentally sustainable fashion.

Ontario ranks among the leaders in the world on sustainable forest management, and approximately 80% of Ontario’s forests are certified, which means that customers can have confidence that Ontario wood products meet third-party ecological, economic and social standards. This is important to Cherry Forest Products in Puslinch; near my community of Cambridge, which employs over 100 people.

Speaker, could the minister please explain what his ministry is doing to help promote Ontario forest products both inside and outside our province?

Hon. Bill Mauro: This is an important and timely question, and I very much want to thank the member for raising it.

When our industry is challenged in regard to how they are harvesting forests in the province of Ontario, the industry is not only being challenged but, in fact, the government of Ontario is being challenged. If they’re saying that industry is not harvesting sustainably, they’re saying that they’re breaking the laws that exist in the province of Ontario.

We have regulation and legislation in the province of Ontario that is very significant. In fact, we would say that we are a world leader when it comes to how we harvest our forests here in the province of Ontario. Almost 80% of the forests in Ontario are third-party certified. We are a leader when it comes to that.

Along with my colleague Minister Lessard in Quebec, and others across the country, we are working with the customer base in New York City, Vancouver, Minneapolis and other jurisdictions to ensure that the customer base is aware of how sustainably we’re managing and harvesting our forests here in the province of Ontario.

Privatization of public assets

Mr. Randy Pettapiece: My question is for the minister responsible for seniors. In May 2002, there was a member who stood in this Legislature and said, “I want to remind the Premier today to hold on to this precious public resource, for once it has gone back to private hands, the public will never get it back. It is my call to the Premier not to privatize Hydro One....”

Could the minister tell us who said that and whether, for the sake of Ontario’s seniors, he still believes it?

Hon. Mario Sergio: This is a good question.

Let me give the facts: In 2002, we were addressing a particular issue raised in the House by former Premier McGuinty with respect to the sale, by the PC government, of 100% of Ontario Hydro, which would have meant another 407-style sale. I was speaking against that entire motion.

What we are trying to do today is completely different than what the PC government was willing to do in 2002: selling a fire sale of Ontario Hydro. This is totally different, and I was referring exactly to that.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Supplementary?

Mr. Randy Pettapiece: Back to the minister for seniors: The minister didn’t stop there; he repeated his statement in a press release. He called the sale of Hydro One a “grave mistake.”

Today, the minister will speak on the International Day of Older Persons. If he wanted to show seniors he cared, he would stand by his statements about Hydro One. Instead, the Liberals’ policies mean that seniors will have to choose between heating and eating.

When will this minister apologize to Ontario seniors?

Hon. Mario Sergio: Thank goodness, Speaker, that because of our efforts working from the opposition, the then government of Ontario, the PC government, did not go through with the sale of Hydro —

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Two arguments going on on both sides is not helpful and it’ll stop.

Hon. Mario Sergio: Thank goodness we didn’t go through with the sale of Hydro the way they wanted to, otherwise it would have been another 99 years of a 407-style sale, which today we are paying for through our nose.

What we are planning to do today is completely different than what the PC government was doing in 2002. I was speaking in opposition to what they wanted to do: selling Hydro completely without reservation or concern for the people of Ontario. This is what I was speaking about. I was speaking on behalf of all the people of Ontario; I was speaking on behalf of the seniors of Ontario—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Stop the clock. Be seated, please.

New question.

Domestic violence

Ms. Peggy Sattler: My question is to the Premier—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I thank the members for their advice. I’ll take care of the House.

Ms. Peggy Sattler: My question is to the Premier. Experts and community leaders are sounding the alarm that recent changes to the Partner Assault Response Program made without any meaningful consultation are putting women and children at risk. These changes run counter to the 2009 report of the Domestic Violence Advisory Council, which recommended that PAR be strengthened, not watered down.

Will the Premier stop ignoring the advice of experts and community leaders? Will she place a moratorium on any further cuts to PAR, and instead start listening to the voices of survivors, PAR providers, community service agencies and criminal justice professionals in reviewing the PAR Program?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: To the Attorney General.

Hon. Madeleine Meilleur: First of all, let me say that the funding for the program has not been changed, and it has not been reduced. Our government is really, really determined to seriously address domestic violence. The Partner Assault Response Program is one part of our response to domestic violence. It provides court-mandated group education and counselling services for domestic violence offenders.

What has changed is that now it’s a 12-session model, which allows the program to serve an additional 2,200 offenders per year, which is an increase in program capacity of more than 22%. This amendment has been made after wide consultation.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Peggy Sattler: The 2009 report of the Domestic Violence Advisory Council, which I mentioned earlier, also recommends that PAR include differentiated responses to intervention, instead of a one-size-fits-all. This would help screen out violent offenders who shouldn’t be in the program, and it would also provide access to abusers who voluntarily want to change.

Why did the government choose to completely ignore the advice that was received in 2009 from experts and community leaders about ensuring that PAR would be an essential part of a coordinated and integrated response to violence against women?

Hon. Madeleine Meilleur: To the minister responsible for women’s issues.

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: As the Attorney General mentioned, domestic violence is a very serious problem in Ontario, and the PAR Program is a component of our coordinated response to domestic violence. I take this issue very seriously as the Ontario minister responsible for women’s issues, and I want to highlight a number of initiatives that this government has