VOL' 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, MAY 22, 1981 NO. 44

May 22, 1981 The House met at lO:a.m. Mr . Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Tape No . 1711 ow - 1 Order, please! We have a number of visitors to the qalleries this morning and I would like to \~elcome them on behalf of hon . members . First of all, we have thirty-four Grade VII students from Grant Collegiate of S9ringdale in the distric ~ 0f Green Bay who are here along with their teachers, Drover, Huxster and Tremblett and a Mr. Wells. We ho9e they enjoy ·their visit. SOME HON. ~EMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: We also have in the galleries six Grade VI s tudents from Port Albert Elementary School in the district of Lewisporte along with their teacher, •rr. wayne Gillingham. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear , hear ! MR. SPEAKER: And we have visiting us todav a group of stude nts from Nelson t<lc!ntyre Collegiate in Winnipeg accomoanied by their teachers,Mr . Bill Peckham and Mr . Bob Town,and their chaperone , Audrey LaFreni~re­ I ho~e that is the correct pronounciation . This group of students are presently on an exchanqe programme with Prince of Wales Collegiate. l-Ie hope they enjoy their visit with us today .

SOt-I.E HON . /~"ffiERS : Hear, hear ! 4747 ·~ .....

May 22, 1 981 Tape No. 171J. DW - 2 ORAL QUF.:STIONS MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR . L. STIRLING: The hon . Leader of the Opposition . Thank you, Mr . Speaker . I had a question :for the t-!ini ster of Mines and Energ (Mr. Barry) but in his absence I was going to ask the P.remier . In his absence,! guess I will ask the President of the Council (~. Marshall) . In view of the Premier's non­ answer to my colleague from Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) dealing with Hydro,! wonder i~ they have now had time to do their homework and no\" have an ans\'Ter. Does the Prov­ ince exercise control over CFLCo? MR .

SPEAKER: The hon . the President of the Council . MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr . Speaker, I should say the Premier this morning is down in his office doing the business of the ~ublic . And he is going to visit with certain students who are in the g al leries so they can see what a halTd working man their member is . SOME HON • M EMBERS : Oh, oh! MR . W . .MARSHAL!L: Mr. Speaker, this question relates to the same q uestion that was ~ sked by the hon . member for Windsor - Buchans yesterday , and he was on the air waves today talking about it .

My answer is thls,quite succinctl y ; CFLCo,as the han. members opposite know. is owned partly by the Government of Newfoundland and partl by o ther interests . CFLCo, Mr . Soeaker, is a separate cor9oration from the Gove rn­ ment of this Province,and I want to assure the han . member, 4748

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1712 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: the han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling), and the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight), in their mad zest and haste to try to discredit the efforts of this government - He is in trouble again. MR. MARSHALL: - to regain control of the great resource which the hon. gentlemen's their opposite party gave away for many years, that this government is going to pursue it- MR. NEARY: now. Keep it clean. 50'1E HON. :'1EMBERS : MR. MARSHALL: There is no need. Keep it clean Oh, oh! - that this government, Mr.

Speaker, is going to pursue getting back the birthright of the people of this Province as quickly as it possibly can. MR. NEARY: Keep it clean now. MR. MARSHALL: CFLCo is one thing, Mr. Speaker. the government of this Province is quite another thing. If the hon. gentlemen there opposite wish to expend their efforts, Mr. Speaker, in a proper and effective manner for the people of this Province 1 I would suggest instead of trying to discredit this great act of this government, the Nater Rights Reversion Act which is before the courts, that they could spend their time when they speak with Mr.

Coots at their Newfoundland Policy Convention, who is coming down to tell them all about how Newfoundland should bow down and toady to Ottawa next week - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: gentlemen . . MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. MARSHALL: Oh, oh! - but Mr. Speaker, what the hon. Order, please! - what the hon. gentlemen might well expend their efforts in doing, Mr. Speaker, is to try to explain to their brethern in Ottawa , their soul mates in Ottawa that we •t~ant 4749

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1712 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: to be equal citizens in Canada,that when we get this great resource back that we have the right to transmit it through the Province of Quebec,and that Newfoundlanders want to be equal Canadians and not 7 I 285ths of a Canadian. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Hear, hear! A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Mr.

Speaker, I hope the Premier was listening on his intercom so that he can dash up quickly to salvage Question Period and let the students from Green Bay see him perform where they elected him to perform and that is in the House of Assembly. And maybe he can dash up now to save Question Period. The people from Winnipeg can now see why across the Mainland people wonder if we are really serious. Now they heard the question and they heard the answer from the man who is the Acting Premier here this morning, that great Canadian, the great Canadian, the President of the Council. Mr.

Speaker, it was a very - actually a very significant answer that we got because here is a government who tells everybody, all and sundry - SOHE HON. ~1E~-1BERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. STIRLING: - in this Province, Mr. Speaker, that we need to get control and,b oy,once we got control we will show them. Well, we hav e control, ~-1r. Speaker , we nave two-thirds ­ control of CFLCo. SOME HON. 11E~1BERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised by the hon. the President of the Council. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, you know,! rise in the 4750

May 22, 19.81 Tape No . l712 NM "'3 MR. l4ARSHALL: interests of the order o.f; the House . I realize my answer got the hon. Leader of the Opposrtron (!1r . Stirling) in a great fit of pique, but this is tl1e C1uesti'On Period . The hon . ~entlen'an may as.k questions to which we will respond . MR. NEARY : I think they are all in he.at. SO~ HON . MEMBERS: Hear , hear! MR. MARSHALL: But the hon . gentleman no~,, Mr. Speaker, is making a speech . MR . TULK : HR. SPEAKER(Simms): MR. STIRLING: of order . 11R. SPEAKER : Make another one, boy . J\nybody wish to speak to the point of oroer? No, 1!1r .

Speaker, that is not a point To the point of order. It says in all the parliamentary reference books that a supplementary question should not require a great deal of

preamble . I was allowing the hon . Leader of the Opposition some

preamble to his question which I am sure he is now about to ask . The hon. Leader of the Opposition . MR . STIRLING: The question is, 4751 .· ........

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1713 AH - 1 MR. STIRLING: since we have sixty-one and two thirds per cent control, and it is so important to that government, that control. We have control and ownership and now he says, 'Well they are two separate companies.' Now, I would ask the President of the Council if Mr. Victor L. Young - MR. HODDER: Cousin Vic. MR. STIRLING: - Chairman of CFLCo and Mr. Victor L. Young, Chairman of the Lower Churchill Development Corporation and Mr. Victor L. Young, Chairman of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, is that the same Victor Young? MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Cousin Vic. Hear, hear! The hon. President of Mr. Speaker, is that not edifying? Is that not edifying, Mr. Speaker? I am sure anyone in this Chamber after hearing the putative leader of the next govern­ ment of this Province - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: - perhaps 25 years from now - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL : - ask such inane questions as to whether black is black or white is white or green is green will fully understand and appreciate why the hon.

Premier can pursue the interests of the Province better down in his office than up here. It is a wonder, Mr. Speaker, that there are any members left in the House, it is a wonder, Mr. Speaker, that there is anyone left in Newfoundland to run after seeing the performance of the Opposition. And having said that, Mr. Spaker, I will say, yes. And I realize, Mr.

Speaker, in answering that question I am probably falling into an invidious trap that is now being set by the Leader of the Opposition so I sit down in anxious anticipation and wait for the next question to see what trap he has laid for me to be caught in. 4752

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1713 AH - 2 MR. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Simmsl: A supplementary. The hon. Leader / of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the President of the Council now admits that, yes, that is the same person and we do control, we have sixty-six and two thirds per cent control, and since he says that is a separate corporation - here comes the trap, get ready now· - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

STIRDING : - in the annual report which is pre- sented to this House with such a great flurry by the government the board of directors of CFLCo.has resolved that an intervention will be made to the courts to contest the validity of this legis- lation, the validity of the legislation that was recommended by Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, the reversionary act, headed by Chairman Vic Young. Now Chairman Vic Young, now what does he do? Does he actually go to different board rooms or does he just have a hat that says Newfoundalnd and Labrador Hydor hat let us take Quebec to court?

Or does he go into a separate room or does he just take of a different hat as Chairman of CFLCo and say. The board of directors has resolved that an intervention will be made to the courts to contest the validity of this legislation? Now would the President of the Council tell us whether or not we have been manoeuvred - we own and control CFLCo - have we now been manoeuvred by the minority shareholders, Quebec-Hydro, to spend this Province's money contesting our own legislation? Are we now in that kind of a situation? MR. NEARY: Cousin Vic is on two boards. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: Mr. Spaker, CFLCo happens to be a corporation incorporated under the Canadian Corporations Act. CFLCo by virtue of this incorporation has certain responsibilities and liabilities cast upon it. CFLCo is not solely owned by the Province of Newfoundland. As far as this matter of control is concerned, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the hon. gentlemen if they want to talk about control would really and sincerely 4753

May 22, 1981 Tape 1714 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: be better off if they attempt to control their brethren who purport to represent the interests of Newfoundland but sit on the Liberal side of the House in Ottawa, and foster and advance the interests of this Province if they want to talk about control. Now, Mr. Speaker, the answer to this case is quite obvious. CFLCo is a separate Crown corporation - MR. STIRLING: ~ontrolled by Newfoundland. MR. MARSHALL': Newfoundland has an interest in it. MR. STIRLING: Controlled by Newfoundland, two-thirds. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

MARSHALL: Quebec Hydro has an interest in ~t . MR . STIRLING: Make up your mind. MR . MARSHALL: It is governed, Mr. Speaker, by the laws of the Parliament of Canada which is controlled by the brethren of the gentlemen there opposite. MR. HODDER: Oh, come off it! Come off it! MR. MARSHALL: It is incorporated under the

Canada Business Act. It has, Mr. Speaker, certain obligations that it has to acquit as a Crown corporation. Now, with all of this, Mr. Speaker, I am going to suggest in a serious vein to the :·wr.. cce::"':.:'..e:-ar. 'c:"!e.·t ·::his qover~ne;:·':: is embarked on a very, very serious ?.nC:. ;-:is':o:::-is ac-:::ion ir:. trying to reclaim our water right and the Upper Churchill through the Upper Churchill Reversion Act. And I would implore and beseech, Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentlemen not as Newfoundlanders to stand in the people's House and try to detract from these acts, because I can assure the hon. gentlemen that no matter what way they are trying to cloud it,that this government is absolutely determined to pursue with the greatest vigour the reclaiming of the birthright of the people of this Province and we will do that, Mr. Speaker, if we have to,as we have in the past in so 4754

May 22 , 1981 Tape 1714 EC - 2 MR. ~~RSHALL : many things, in spite of the hon . gentlemen . We would that we could do it with their co-operation and their support. MR. STIRLING: MR . SPEAKER (Simms) : A supplementary, Mr . Speaker . The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary . MR. STIRLING : Mr . Speaker, the students should know that the rules of the House permit the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) to give that non-ar~wer . We have no other choice . Eut Thursday afternoons for five minutes we can object . But the rules of the House permit the minister to wander off .

They are very strict on what we can ask : We cannot make a speech. we iust hav~ to ask questions . MR. ~: The rules also allow him to make a fool of himself . SG1E ROO. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. STIRLI{I(; : ~. Speaker, the board of directors ~nclude one , two, three, four, five, six people - six people on the board of directors . All but one are Newfoundlanders , all appointed by the Newfoundland Government .

N0\11, when that vote came , when the board of directors resolved to intervene, did the Newfoundland directors appointed by the Newfoundland Government report back to the government and get perm~.ssion of the Ne~Tfoundland Government to vote to intercede , 4755 ....

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1715 SD - 1 MR. STIRLING: pay court costs to try to set aside our legislation? Did the Board of Directors get permission from our government to do that? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. MARSHALL: The hon. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman want to, you know, get into - he talks about the directors, the one, two, three, fo~r, five, six directors from Newfoundland. Yes, there are one, two, three, four, five, six directors from Newfoundland and yes, Mr. Speaker, they are administering the affairs of a Crown corpor~tion under the Canadian Corporations Act. Now, Mr.

Speaker, what does it profit the people of Newfoundland if an action is taken, if other shareholders of CFLCo can, are put in a position only because of the merest legal technicality of taking an action against CFLCo after we regain this great resource and after we are able to dedicate the resource to the people of this Province rather than let it abide as it has for a number of years with the 75/285ths. Canadians who reside in the Province of Quebec?

Now the hon. gentleman there opposite has shown a great understanding of corporations, he has shown that he knows there is a Board of Directors of a company, and he has shown that there are six Directors and he has shown there is a relationship with the Government of Newfoundland and he is, Mr. Speaker, so correct and he is so smart! But I suggest that he go back and do a little bit more of his homework and not be asking questions of this nature in his mad zeal and desire of his Party to try to undermind that great act of the Peckford administration in reclaiming the Upper Churchill resource. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: of the Opposition. Hear, hear. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. Leader 4756 .;,"'

May 22, 1981 Tape No . 1415 so - 2 MR . STIRLING: Mr . Speaker, as I understand it now,Vic Young as Chairman of Newfoundland Hydro came to the Newfoundland government and said, "Let us use this great ne~1 bill" - and we support it, and then Vic Young , as Chairman of CFLCo had a meeting of the Board of Directors and reported to the Newfo undland Government that"We are going to intercede and try to set d01vn this legislation." And the Newfoundland Government apparently wearing one hat said yes and a nother hat said no .

Now they clearly understand \vhat it is that they are doi ng but they have not gotten around to telling anybody else what they are doing . Now can they tell us for sure how much money has been set aside by CFLCo and by Newfoundland Hydro to oppose each other in this case with Newfoundland taking each other to court? How much money has been set aside by the people of Newfoundland for this case? 4757 ~·

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1716 EL - 1 MR. SPEAKER(Simms): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, all I can say is there is going to be sufficient money set aside for the various in­ terests involved to acquit their responsibilities. Now, the hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, unfortunately cannot get it through his head. The fact of the matter is that CFLCo is a separate corporation. MR. STIRLING: MR. MARSHALL: corporation. MR. STIRLING: government. Not true. It is a separate and distinct Controlled by the Newfoundland MR. MARSHALL: Integrated under the

Canada Business Corporations Act. And any action it is taking, Mr. Speaker, is not being taken as a result of its relationship with the government but the relationship of the statute under which it is actually created. And I re-emphasize, Mr.

Speaker, again to the abject disappointment of the hon. gentlemen there opposite, that nothing they are going to say today is going to detract this government or the people of Newfoundland in their determined resolve to regain the power which is there which should . not have been given away in the first place and would not have been given away in the first place if we had had a government of the day like this government which is determined to have Newfoundlanders treated as equal Canadians with other Canadians. MR. CALLAN: MB.. SPEAKER; MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker . The hon. member for Bellevue. Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Justice a question. I want to ask the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) under what circumstances or under what circumstance can an RCNP officer walk into the bedroom of a couple, an old age pension couple, at two o'clock in the morning? MR. SPEAKER: The hon the Minister of Justice. 4758

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1716 EL - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr . Speaker, I am sure the hon. gentleman has a specific problem or incident in mi nd which he may ~"ish to indicate publicly or he may wish to indicate privately. I do not know. I can see a whole series of nine o·r ten questions under what circumstances can an RCMP enter - what is it 1 the bedroom of an old age couple?

You see, I do not suppose it would make any diffe~ence if they are old age or young age, ...rf it is their bedroom or their ba·throom, you know, the fact is obviously with a warrant , obviously in case he believes those people themselves are in danger , - yo u k~ ~w . one can think of a number without listing every possible one - With a warrant where the~e ~e reasonable grounds to susoect a cdrne has been or is about to be comrnitted,where those people them­ selves may be in danger in order to warn them of an impending danger, you know, and there could well be a number of others. 47 59

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1717 ow - 1 MR. W. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER (Simms): for Bellevue. A supnlementary, the hon. member M.R. l'l. CALLAN : Mr. Speaker, perhaps with a little

preamble I can be more specific. The RC~"' in pursuit of somebody who aban~oned his car because he had a few drinks too many and decided to take off on foot and appeared to go into a certain person's house - which he di~ not, but apoeared to. And so the RCMP 1 in pursuit of the men who had abandoned his car,went into this couple's home, right into the bedroom,two o'clock in the morninq -they could have had a heart attack! As I said,the only reason I men­ tioned the y were senior citizens was because, you know, anything can happen. And they searched the hous·e upside down.

Is that p art of the >WMP' s mandate in their role in carrying out their duties?Can they do that, you know, when there 1.;as no evidence, no evidence at all to sus';)ect that they had even gone into this home? MR. SPEAKER: MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: The hon. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I am sure the hon. gentleman will agree that, you know, it would be very difficult, it would orobahlv be quite improper for me to give a dogmatic answer unless you know the specific circumstances and everything were known.

In general if a police officer is apprehending someone who has broken the law or whom he has reasonable grounds to suspect has broken the la1.;, such -"· "' ,.>.-; ving a car while under the influence of liquor or reckless driving or what ever it is, in oursuit of such oerson then that police officer may take such reasonable means as are necessary to aoprehend him or her. And what those reasonable means are in the circumstances could depend on any number of things. 4760

May 22, 1981 Taoe No. 1717 m~ - 2 MR . G. OTTENHEIMER: You know, it is not a situation where I would c;<'n ves or no. It depends on circum­ stCinces , it is a question of judgement, t"hat are the reasonable means psrceived to benecessary to aoorehend that "erson 1"ho bas broken the law or regarding Ylhom ther"! are reasonable grounds to think has broken the 1 ''~~". I kn01-1 it is not satisfactory but it is not that kind of a que _stion it is not like five and four are nine . ~iR. D. HANCOCK: MR . SPEAKER (Simms : ) The Capes . MR . D. HANCOCK: Mr. Speaker . The hon . member for St . Mary ' s - Thank you, Hr .

Speaker . I have a question, Mr. Speaker, for the Minister of Fisheries (Mr . Morgan). As the minister is well aware,a lot of fishermen around the Province last year almost 1"ent bankru9t because of whale damage . I would like for the minister to inform the House at this time if there is a programme in place to cover whale damage this year if such damage should occur. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Fis heries. MR. J . MORGAN: Mr .

Speaker, the bon . gentleman's question is an important one for fishermen in his riding, I know, because of the substantial damages caused by ~.;hales in inshore waters last year in St. Mary's Bay and , in fact, around Bonavista Bay and Trinity Bay as well and parts of Labrador . The Minister of Fisheries for the federal government, Mr . LeBlanc,when he was in the Province last Fall , 47 61 -~ .~ ..

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1718 EL - 1 MR. MORGAN: when addressing the Fishermen's Union convention,he then announced that there would be a whale compensation programme, A committee was established last year involving the Fishermen's Union, our own Department of Fisheries and the Federal Department of Fisheries to monitor the damage and Mr. LeBlanc announced there would be a compen­ sation programme in place for '81 fishing season. Unfortunately, and somewhat regrettably, the federal officials indicated to us approximately ten days ago that thereare now no plans for an '81 compensation programme.

And of course, our position is that because the federal or national government of Canada back in '72, Canada was a country that really initiated the ban on hunt- ing or killing of whales, therefore we feel the responsibility is strictly the Federal government's.

If they are supporting and did initiate a ban on the hunting of whales,then therefore there should be some kind of compensation programme when whales are coming into the inshore waters in great numbers as in the last couple of years, seeing I would not say hundreds but at least in some communities as high as twenty-five or thirty codtraps destroyed in one week 1 and it is of major importance to the fish­ ermen because now the situation is that whales are back in the inshore waters again this year, the humpback whale in particular and the humpback whale is the one that is causing all the damage.

And our position is again 1 as I say, we were hoping the Federal Government would bring a compensation programme in. We even talked along the line at one time that we would participate in an overall compensation programme, not only for whale damage but storm damage but again you have procrastin­ ation on the part of the Federal Government and we just cannot comprehend why they are procrastinating on the whole pro- gramme. MR. HANCOCK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 4762

May 22 , 1981 Tape No . 1718 EL - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary, the hon. member for St . Marys - the Capes . MR . ~~NCOCK: Because of the importance of such a programme being put in place , if the Federal Governmen t cannot put it in place for some reason - I do not know why they cannot - \vOuld the Provincial Government consfder such a orogramme to alleviate the problem that is going to be caused? It is going to be a serious problem this coming season . MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries . MR. MORGAN: ~1r.

Speaker , the same thing always comes up : The Federal Government has a~ost total control over the fishing industry in our Province. Whenever anything comes up where the Federal Governmen 't should be doing things for the Newfound ­ land fishery,and when they do not do it and do not want to do it the automatic question is ,'l-lhy do you not do it, Newfoundland? And we have been saying for some time, 'Give us some jursidiction over the fish eries and we will do things .' MR. NEARY: Mr . Spea ker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon . member for LaPoil e. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I might say the young lady in the wheelchair is from Winnipeg . She came all the way to Newfoundland to get her appendix removed. I asked her already if she was going to show us her operation but she declined . Mr . Speaker, I would like to direct a questio n to the President of the Council (W .Marshall) in conn­ ectio n with this brochure which I have in my hand , 47 63 -.

May 22, 1981 Tape 1719 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: a brochure done in Tory blue, the Tory colours. Mr. Speaker, who is paying for this brochure? Is it being paid for by the taxpayers or is it being paid for by the Tory Party or by the member for Harbour Main - Bell Island (Mr. Doyle) ,whose picture is on the back of the brochure? Who is paying for it? Do we have another McConnell-Devine scandal on our hands where we have the Public Treasury paying for political documents? And would the hon. gentleman also tell us, while he is on his feet, who pumps out this kind of propaganda besides Adolf Hitler, Mussolini and Idi Amin?

Who else does it besides them and this government? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, how amusing! That is put out by the hon. the member for Harbour Main - Bell Island and, I think, other hon. members, for the purpose of acquainting the people in their districts with the great purposes of this administration, particularly in the government's zeal and determination to gain our natural rights to our offshore, particularly, Mr.

Speaker, with our frustration and our desire to be treated the same as other Canadians in the transmission of hydro rights, particularly, Mr. Speaker, with our desire to be able to manage our most basic resource, the fisheries. And, Mr. Speaker, the hon. the member for Harbour Main - Bell Island, like other patriotic members on this side, I am glad to say, has done it solely, completely, entirely at his own cost. I would commend both pictures to the hon. membersthere opposite. And let me, Mr.

Speaker, also at the same time, draw to the attention of the House,and maybe the press, the types of little insinuations, little innuendoes that the hon. gentleman likes to try to sneak in, like 'Is this another McConnell?' SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 4764

May 22 , 1981 Tape 1719 EC - 2 MR . MARSHALL: There are no McConnells in this administration , Mr . Speaker; there arc members who are dedicated to the purposes and to the future of this Province . SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh , oh ! MR . SPEAKER (Simms) : Order , please ! MR. NEARY: A supplementary, M.r . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the for LaPoile . member MR. NEARY : Mr.

Speaker, in all that mixed up answer that the hon . gentleman tried to give me there i~ his usual nasty way , did I understand from the hon . gentleman that this is not to be a householder mailing , that it \-Jill not be sent out to all the provincial districts in this Province, it will only be sent to districts that are represen t ed by the Tory Party , Tory districts ? And who will pay the cost of the mailing of this brochure - not the mailing of it, the printing of it? Will it be paid by the individua l members for Tory districts or will it be paid for out of the Public Treasury? 4765

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1720 so - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. MARSHALL: The hon. President of the Council. The hon. gentleman need not worry in this regard; the hon. membe.r for Harbour Main - Bell Island (Mr. Doyle) is not going to send it to the constituents in LaPoile because, Mr. Speak .er, the hon. gentleman has paid for this out of his own pocket . Under the rules,every member is allowed a household mailing and this is just a normal household mailing as the hon. gentleman has used in his own district. MR. HANCOCK: You are goi.'1g to have to go sorre to outdo the Bonavista householder . MR. ~ffiRSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, if I could - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I want to say to as to allay the hon. member's fears, we are not going to send out a brochure to the people of LaPoile but we cannot guaranttee that I myself may not send out and pay for personally a letter to the people of LaPoile advising them that the hon. gentleman has brought into this House a nonconfidence motion in the budget~ in other words, h.e is voting against the hospital that we are providing in Channel - Port aux Basques. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, h8~- :- . MR. MARSHALL: I might do that, Mr. Speaker.

We might inform the people of LaPoile that the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) does not want a hospital in Channel - Port aux Basques, that he is against it- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: - but, Mr. Speaker, I do not think the hon. member has any intentions of sending his own brochure to LaPoile. MR. SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. 4756 I•

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1720 SD - 2 PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER (Simms} : The hon. member for St. Mary's - The Capes. MR. HANCOCK: Thany you, r1r. Speaker. I rise to present a petition on behalf of s·ome 220 residents and fishermen of the communities of Point La Haye, Gaskiers, St. Mary's. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: MR. HANCOCK: follows, Mr. Speaker. Order, please: The prayer of the petition is as 'We, the fishennen' s conmittees of the communities of Point LaHaye, Gaskiers and St. Mary's hereby request you support in retaining a second person at the lighthouse at Point LaHaye in St. Mary's Bay.

We request that this system be improved as it does not provide adequate service for the fishermen in that region. There are approximately 868 fishermen in the St. Mary's Bay area along with other fishermen from Placentia Bay and Trinity Bay. They depend on this operation at Point La Haye. Many of these fishermen feel that the present system is not adequate as the sounding device does not carry far enough on the fishing grounds. Some fishermen have indicated that they have to shut off their motors in order to hear the present system that exists there.

They are calling on g_overnment for its support to try and have a larger fog horn installed at that lighthouse in Point La Haye. 'The ninety year old location of a lighthouse at Point La H.aye has served seamen well,but it is the men who have manned that operation who have been the key to the safety record over the years. The policy of changing to a one man system reflects the downgrading of the system and fishermen, their families and friends are deeply concerned. 4767 ·:,,..

t1ay 22, 1981 Tape No . 1720 so - 3 MR . HANCOCK: 'With the foggy weather conditions that prevail during the fishing season, there i$ ~ood reason to place more emphasis on improving the system. How does one man cope with ten days of fog only with twenty-four hours in the day? At one hour the electric~l system can malfunction so there is a breakdown and they have no back-up system, Mr. Speaker, if there is only one man manning that station. ' It has become apparent that with the increasing activities at the two fish plants in St. Mary ' s and Riverhead that more fishermen from outside the immediate area \•lill be frequent~ng the wat ers near Point La l:laye. ' 47 68 ....

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1721 NM - 1 MR. HANCOCK: Mr. Speaker, the petition, like I say, is signed by 220 residents. There are over 800 fishermen in that surrounding area and they just got the petition in to me yesterday. They want me to act on their behalf and call upon the Premier of this Province to do whatever he can to see that two men operate this station the same as it has been operated for the last ninety years.

The fishermen in that area feel that if one man is taken away from that lighthouse that their lives will be endangered at times because that particular area is enclosed by fog more than any other area around this Province, Mr. Speaker. And I might add, Mr. Speaker, that the two lighthouse keepers there have their own CBs, and most fishermen around the Province now have CBs in their fishing boats and the two lighthouse keepers are in constant contact with the fishermen by CB in case an emergency should arise.

I may point out to this House that over the last six or seven years there have been ten or twelve cases arisen where people have gotten out of trouble by the use of those CBs. They have been in contact with the lighthouse keeper in the lighthouse and he has helped people get out of trouble because of the CBs. And if one man is not there and only one man on duty in that lighthouse,they feel that they will have no contact with the lighthouse keeper. So, Mr.

Speaker, I support the petition and I think the Premier in his duty as the Premier of this Province should call upon the Canadian Coast Guard to try and have this lighthouse in Point La Haye maintained by two fishermen as it has been for the last ninety years, Mr. Speaker. I whole-heartedly support the petition, Mr. Speaker, and I ask that the petition be laid on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 4769

May 22, 1981 Tape No . 1721 NM - 2 MR . SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon . Minister of Fisheries . MR . HORGAN: Mr . Speaker, I too would like to support that petition from the residents, I would assume , speaking primarily on behalf of the fishermen in that general area of St. Mary ' s Bay and Placentia Bay, and again to point out, as I am sure the hon . gentleman is aware, that this petition cannot be dealt with by this House of Assembly, only to be referred on to the federal department which is responsible . And it seems that the problem of transportation in not only St .

Mary ' s Bay but in Placentia Bay is a major concern to the fishermen. The lack of communications in the area, involving the transportation of large vessels in particular, and no\" we see the downgrading of a service important to the smaller boat fishermen in the general area . Unfortunately, and I say it sincerely, it seems that the fishermen in St . Mary ' s Bay between the whale problem and now the problem with the do1o~ngrading of 47 70

May 22, 1981 Tape No . 1722 MR . J . MORGAN : services in communications are having difficulties with the federal government again,it is obvious. And I would like to see this petition - and not in a partisan way at all - I would like to see it maybe taken U9 by the MP for the area, Mr. Crosbie,and to bring the case forward to the federal minister . SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh , oh ! ow - 1 MR . J . MORGAN: I am sure that an MP- well, if an MP is effective at all, no matter which side he is on in the House of Commons, can be more effective than an MHA here in the Province . It is a federal matter .

So I would like to see the petition sent not onlv to the federal department but also to the federal Member of oarliament and I am sure he will take up the case for the downgrading of communications and services in the area . And surely, I sincerely hope - and I say this \.rithout making it sound too political - but I sincerely hope , Hr . Speaker , that this down­ grading of services that we suddenly see in Ne\o~found­ land over the last t wo months is not to transfer person years of work from Newfoundland region over to the new r.ulf region recently established in New Brunswick .

Because a number of person years have been transferred for Coast Guard purposes, a number have been transferred for Fisheries, Research and Surveillance, have been transferred from Newfoundland over to the new Gulf region in New Brunswick . And I sincerely hope that the elimination of one man down in the lighthouse in Point La Haye is not for the purpose of taking a person year from that area and transferrinq it over some•..there else . Surely a federal government caa\ find a few dollars to r;>ay one extra man to \vork in a lighthouse which could very well 47 71

May 22, 1981 Tape No . 1722 ow - 2 MR . J. MORGAN: save the lives of fishermen around that coast of St . Mary's Bay this Summer. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. member for Burin - Placentia West . MR. D. HOLLETT: Thank you , Mr . Speaker . I also rise in support of the petition so ably prese nted by my colleague for St . Mary ' s - The Capes (Mr. Hancock) . I do not think that it is news to very many of us who live in rural ridinqs that this downgrading programme has been in effect for some t~n years and to a great extent has been fought successfully by residents of this Province.

Automation is great but when lives and a way of life are threatened 1 then I certainly do not support it . I think all lighthouse stations and fog alarms in this Province should be manned at least by two people on regular shift . It is a visual contact that is terribly important and I think it has been pointed out that lives have been saved. And also I would like to publicly go on record in support of the type of fog alarm systems which 1.Je have no~1 which are basically electronic beeper/ tweeter types which certainly are not as effective as the old one .

But I think that from a look out point of vie1..,, from a safety point of view and for the well being of the fami ­ lies and those at sea, 47 72 _.

May 22,1981 Tape No. 1723 AH-1 MR. HOLLETT: I think that the lighthouse and fog alar~should be manned twenty-four hours, seven days a week and I think we should do whatever we can to ensure that that type of system is kept in place in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting The Drilling Of Water Wells And Conservation And Use Of Ground-Water." (Bill No. 6) MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Yesterday the debate was adjourned by the hon. member for LaPoile who had spoken for about seven minutes. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, the main point I raised yesterday when I spoke on this bill,which is something new now in the field of drilling water wells, water holes, artesian wells in this Province,I raised the matter of

Section 6 and

Section 7 which has to do with refusal, etc., of license and a review, an appeal procedure. And what the government is doing is they are forcing the applicants who have their application refused to appeal to the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council. So what they are really saying is that the minister,who is part of the Lieutenant Governor in -Council who made the origional decision 1 would also sit in on the appeal because he is part of the Lieutenant Governor in-Council.And that to me, Mr. Speaker, is not an appeal procedure and I think it should be changed.

This whole act as a matter of fact, the tone of this whole act seems to me to be rather severe and rather drastic. All you have to do is look at the penalty, the penalties for first offenders. For a first offence to a fine of not more than $500 or to imprisonment for not more than thirty days or to both,the fine and the imprisonment, for a first offender, somebody who gets caught drilling without a license. 4773

May 22,1981 Tape No . 17?3 Al:l- 2 MR . NEARY : Why,that penalty does not apply to people who are convicted of manslaughter in thls Province . That is a very severe and very stiff penalty to impose under this act . You would not know but you committed murder, Mr . Spea ker, if you happen to get caught without a license to dri ll for wells . I am not arguing in favour of those who break the law but that seems to me to be a pretty stiff penalty compared to the punishment doled out in this Province for vandalism and crime and armed robbe .ry 47 74

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1724 EL - 1 MR . NEARY : and attacking senior citizens and shoplifting and purse snatching and manslaughter, the stuff that we have seen the members of the government get away with already. We have two laws in this Province anyway, two laws, one for supporters of the Tory Party and former members of the Tory Party and one for : the ordinary person. I would like to see, Mr. Speaker, how an ordinary Newfoundlander would be dealt with if the same reports were brought in concerning an ordinary Newfoundlander as have been brought into this House in the last two or three weeks.

I would like to see how they would be dealt with. Mr. Speaker, another matter that I want to raise under this bill is the policy. What policy now is the government following on drilling wells in this Prov­ ince? We understand from other discussions in this House-and I am sorry that the Minister of Municipal Affairs (H.Newhook) is not in her seat- that they have scrapped the water Division of the Department of Municipal Affairs. They have scrapped it, dismantled it, did away with it and I do not know why. There was some kind of a police investigation down there a couple of years ago.

I do not know if that had anything to do with it or not. We never did get the results of that investigation but why was it scrapped? They are farming it out now, contracting the work out and I am told that by contracting the work out it is costing three times as much as it did in the beginning, as it did initially. Three times more. It is costing three times more, Mr. Speaker, to contract the work out than it did when we had the water services oivision of the Department of Municipal Affairs. A senior civil servant who headed up that water division was displaced. I do not know - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR.

NEARY: Mr. Philpot was displaced. 47 75

May 22, 1981 Tape No . 1724 EL - 2 MR. NEARY : I do not know if they found alternative employment for this gentleman, a senior ci11il ser- vant l•lho , in my opinion, - it I~Ol.tld a.99ear from just sitting on the outside looking in, it appeared to be a very rotten deal, or a very rotten thing to do . These people 1vere sitting there 1 they d i d not know i£ they were going to be provided l·rith alter­ native employment after their jobs 1vere termed to be redundant . So perhaps the minister I o,r some minister, I do not know who , can straighten us out on that partic ular matter . \fuat about all the holes that l<lere drilled in this Pro v ince prior to the '75 general election 47 76 .....

May 22, 1981 Tape 1725 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: that are still there? Tne case pipe was put in the holes, nothing was ever done with the holes. MR . NEARY : There is one down in my own district, Mr. Speaker, in Port aux Basques in Grand Bay \vest. There was a drill hole put down there 200 or 300 or 400 feet down in the ground to provide water for the residents of Grand Bay West. The last time I looked at the drill hole it looked like some kids were filling it up with rocks. surely, there must be an inventory of all the drill holes in this Province, Mr. Speaker.

This particular hole was put there at taxpayer expense and no pump, not even a hand pump installed, so that the people who do not have good drinking water in that area could get water from that well. I suggested in this Rouse a couple of years ago that government should not drill wells and then abandon them or even put a hand pump in. I think if a well is drilled the whole thing should be finished.

The well should be drilled, there should be a pump house and a pump put in that pump house, a submersible pump or at least an electric pump on the surface in the house over the well, so that any people who wanted to hook into the water system could then do it. I do not know if hon. gentlemen are aware, but that is the way it is done on Bell Island. As hon. ~embers know, there is no surface drinking water on Bell Island, and there are dozens and dozens of other communities in Newfoundland in the same category. There is no surface water on Bell Island fit to drink.

Every ounce of drinking water on Bell Island comes from down in the ground. Some people have wells down eighteen and twenty feet, but the community wells are down, I would say, any­ where ranging from 250 feet up to 600 feet down in the ground. And the water is pumped up in storage tanks and 4777

May 22, 1981 Tape L725 EC - 2 MR . NEARY: fed into the homes. And in a good many instances, Mr. Speaker , a lot of tnese projects on Bell Island were done under LIP projects, Canada Works projects , where people instead of going with buckets and bringing water from t he hydrant in buckets , through Canada Works projects, ~-7inter employment projects and so forth, they dug their own drains to the well house, hooked in a line and hooked every house ~nto the water supply . You talk about 1.11e ingenuity of Ne•,.,rfoundlanders !

I believe Bell Island would be a good example of what should be followed in a good many mor.e parts of Ne\>Tfoundland . l-Ie ha ve this foolish notion in Newfoundland that you have to go five and ten miles back into the country to get water from a pond or from a river to supply a community with water . You do not have to do that at all . It 47 78

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1726 NM - 1 MR. NEARY : is cheaper , Mr. Speaker . It would cost less if you drilled an artesia n w ell near the community , or right in the heart of the community, and distr i buted the water from that artesian well for the homes . It woul d cost much less . up his face at th~t. MR. WINDSOR: fool of yourself . MR. NEARY : HR. HANCOCK: C>tR. NEARY : Look at the former minister screwing Yes, boy. Sit down and stop making a Mr. Speaker, if they can do it­ Is that not shocking?. - if they can do it on Bell Island why can they not do in dozens of other communities in Newfoundland? MR .

HANCOCK: you to shut up . MR . WINDSOR: Everytime you make sense here they want And then pump it for the rest of t hei r and have continual operation and maintenance costs . Sit down until you know what you are t alk ing about . MR . NEARY : Oh, ~tr . Speaker, oh,just imagine, a continuous maintenance cost ! Oh, my, how - what a pearl of wisdom just fell off the l ips of the hon . gentleman who does not open his trap very often in this House . MR . IITNDSOR: MR. NEARY: And stil l says brice as much as you do . Yes, tell us about the Mount Pearl stadium . Tell us about that . MR . SPEAKER (Simms) : t-tR.

NEARY: stadiums . MR . SPEAKER: MR . NEARY : Order , please! Order, please ! The hon . gentleman is the expert on the Order , please ! And tell us abou t the land down around Mount Pear.l . Tell us about that . Nell, maybe I will tell the House in due cou rse . MR . WINDSOR: Tell me . Tell me . 4779

May 22, 1981 MR. NEARY : course. MR . SPEAKER (Simms) : MR . NEARY: Tape No. 1726 NM - 2 No , I will tell the House in due Order, please~ Order, please~ Water \>.ells, ground reservoirs, whatever they are. Mr. Speaker, this is a very practical solution to the problem of a lot of communities in Ne1-1foundland ~ho have problems getting an adequate supply of drinking water. It is a practical solution . The only thing is they cannot think about rural Ne1-1foundland . MR . HANCOCK: That is their problem. MR . NEARY: They can only think about big ~lindsor Lake and Petty Harbour, these St. John's members.

And I might say for the benefit of the hon . gentlemen,that I did not spend most of my life in the city of St . John ' s, nor would I spend the most of my life in the city of St . John's . I was born and raised on Bell Island and spent most of rny adult life living and working on Bell Island, not in the city of St. John's . And neither do I live here now. I only lived in St . John's a few years,for convenience. MR . t-!ARSHALL: What has that got to do with it? MR . NEARY : No, but the hon . gentleman raised it yesterday. And then I got fed up with City Hall and moved out off Portugal Cove Road .

I am getting closer to Bell Island all the time. MR. HANCOCK : go over there tomorrow. MR . NEARY: If you could only afford it you would And now they are trying to take us back in again, they are trying to change the boundary . And we cannot get the report from the Minister of Municipal Affairs (!>Irs. Nel.,hook) , who says, "Oh, the House may be closed before the report becomes public . " They are ashamed and scared. They do not have the 47 80

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1726 NM - 3 MR . NEARY: courage to give us that report, that Powell Commission Report . So, Mr . Speaker - MR . HANCOCK: They are going to have another Cabinet meeting on it so they can take a look at it . NR . NEARY : Oh yes , Cabinet is studying it. So, Mr . Speaker, this idea that I suggested about supplying drinking water to dozens piled upon dozens of communities in this Province is very realistic and very practical . Otherwise it will costs hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars to get a water supply for these smaller communities.

And unless the government is penny-\dse and pound-foolish,they will go out and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars going five and ten miles back in the woods to get drinking water from a pond

whereas the problem · could be resolved by just drilling a well and providing the water from an artesian ~ell . Even if they . 4 7 81

May 22 , !981 Tape No . 1727 so - 1 1-IR. NEARY : had to oa" t-""l :-n aj.,t e nanc~ --:o the operating costs and the electricity for the !?\.11{) there ~ still be a tremendous saving to the taxpayer~ o;: tnis Province a tre"''2nrl<>n"l ~., , ~.., .... . M R. f.HNDSOR: AN HON . t-tENBER: MR . NEAR'{: Nonsense, nonsense . Keep quite, boy , keep quite . What about Bell Island? Is the water rate on Bell I sland a ny higher than it is in Mount Pearl? Is it? MR. . t'/INDSOR : ~'IR . NFA'RY : '-tR. '1INOSO!l : MR . NEARY: You do not kn~ what you are talking about .

I see , it is not , it is the same . (Inaudible) subsidiP.~ The subsidy to a munici9ality . is the same as it is in every other community in Newfoundland where the Liberal government put in water and sewerage and subsidized it from the Public Treasury . It is no different than Mount Pearl or any other municipality in Newfoundland . :-IR. \H\lOSOq: oosco put it in . my friend . MR . NEARY : DOSCO did not put it in , t4r . Speaker , there was not - let me say this for the benefit of the hon . gentleman , the knolv-all from St .

John ' s , that DOSCO did not put in water and se1.rerage , there was not one foot of water and sev1era ge on Bel l Island until I became the member . SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear , hear . MR . NEARY : And you would think the member now would try to expand on that . Ti">.ey have been extendin g it. under Canada Works projects over there, another Liberal philosophy . There was not a foot . Aoo that anytime the hon. gentleman wants to debate Bell Island. I would suggest he get up and we will have it out .

They are being subsid i zed, the municipality is being subsidized the same as any other municipality in New~oundland . AN HON . !'lE~tBER : Bell Island got preferential treatment . 47 B2

May 22, 1981 'l'ape No . 1727 so - 2 MR . NEARY : Bell Island did not get preferentail treatment . Bell Island \"as treated - as a matter of fact , Bell Island paid its way for a good many years in this Province, when St . John' s was a parasite living off the likes of Bell Island . All the services ;..ere t:-ut in St . .Iohn ' s and Bell Island helped pay for them and they are only getting back now what they paid for for fifty years , that I helped pay for while I lived and worked on Bell Island . You do not have to tell us about the parasites in St . John's. Nr.

Chairman , this is a realistic proposal and I believe it is one that the government should take under consideration, this matter of drilling artesian 1>1ells in communi ties \•there the supply of drinking 1"ater in ponds is quite a distance from the community. I mean, it is better to have it from an artesian well than not have it at all,because it is too expensive to get .

It would cost , I would say·, one-quarter of the cost of digging a ditch three and four and five and six and seven miles in the country through rough terrain, through rock and bog and t:1en ~uttlng a reservoir or a storagP tank and then running the pipe into that reservoir. That "~ cost a small fortune,

whereas these communities - ..... ,

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1728 EL - l MR. NEARY: I am thinking about communities like Petites where the government did a survey six years ago. The government did a survey in Petites, paid Mr. Terpstra to go down and do a survey on Petites. Mr. Terpstra, members recall, used to work in the Department of Municipal Affairs and later went out and became an independent consultant. They sent him down to Petites.

He recommended a water system for Petites, where they have very low quality drinking water or no drinking water at all, recommended that the project go ahead in Petites - that was before the 1975 general election - and that is the last they heard of water in Petites, the last they heard of it, even though they have made various and sundry representations to this government. Why,· Mr. Speaker? Why will they not put water in Petites? Is it because they are all Liberal down there? Is that the reason? DR. COLLINS: MR. NEARY: DR. COLLINS: MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). I beg your pardon? {_Inaudible) .

What kind of revenue is - the hon. gentleman is squeezing all the revenue he can get out of the booze in the Province and out of the gasoline and out of the retail sales tax, what is it the hon. gentleman wants me to do? DR. COLLINS: (Inaudible) . MR. NEARY; Well, I mean it is not our fault that the hydro is not developed. HR. CARTER: Put tax on (inaudible) MR. NEARY: Tax on what? MR. CARTER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: I do not know if we can start taxing savoury or not. Do we collect the retail sales tax on savoury? And not only that, Mr.

Speaker, but my hon. colleague just reminded me that the granite for the Cathedral here in St. John's carne from Petites. Petites is very famous in this 4784

May 22, 1981 Tape NO. 1728 EL - 2 M.'L NEARY: Province. I do not know if any hon.members have ever been there. I think my colleague, the member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Hollett) has been there. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) St. John's now? MR. NEARY: I am not sure which - the Anglican Cathedral plus the Courthouse. The granite for the Courthouse came from Petites, big chunks. It would be worth your while to go down, Mr. Speaker, Going into ~etites there are big quarries with big stones, almost square, beautiful stone.

I am sur- prised that some industrialist from some other part of the world has not gone down to Petites to quarry this stone, absolutely beautiful! You can see it down here in the Court­ house. Well, that is the community I am talking about. MR. MARSHALL: And carve a bust of the hon. member. MR. NEARY: They may do that too. But why are they being discriminated against? Is it because they are Lib­ eral, because they vote Liberal down there? No. Well, why are they being discriminated against? Mr.

Terpstra recommended that this little project go ahead, a matter of $15,000 or $20,000 to put a water supply in Petites back before the 1975 general election and then the thing was scrapped just like the hydro. The government started the development of the Lower Churchill before the 1975 election and scrapped that too. Well, they scrapped the water supply in Petites in the same way. Well, these are just a few questions, Mr. Speaker, I want to raise while we are debating this bill. I would like to get an answer to the question I asked a few moments ago about all these holes in the ground.

There ~orere enough holes, drill holes put down in Newfoundland before the 1975 election to sink her, especially on the Great Northern Peninsula. 47d5

May 22, 1981 Tape No . 1728 EL - 3 MR . NEARY: There is one over in Grand Bay t<~est that I referred to a few moments ago. What about all these drill holes? Can they now be salvaged? Thousands piled upon thousands of taxpayer dollars used to put down these drill holes, and nothing done with them, just a piece of pipe, case pipe , put down , capped and in some cases the cap has been ripped off and the hole has been filled U!? with ~Tater. Can they be salvaged? lolill they be 47 d6

May 22 , 1981 Tape No . 1729 ow - 1 MR. S . NEJ\RY: salvaged:' '"lill we try to recoup the taxpayers ' dollars spent on these drill holes? Or has the government now abandoned these holes , just going to leave them to fill up wit h soil and with rocks and let the kids stuff rocks down in them all day long? Is that what is qoing to happen? Or can they be used and will they be used? I would like for the minister to ans wet" these few questions 1vhen he is closino second reading on this bill . MR . SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. President of the Council . If tne hon . the President of the Counci l (~r .

Marshall) speaks now he closes debate on the bill . MR . W. MARSHALL: Very quickly , Mr . Speaker , but I have to address the questions posed by the hon. member and I am only going to address them very briefly because r want the hon . member, you know, 1vhen he votes for this , to understand what a progressive 9iece of legislation he is actually voting £or . Yesterday, Mr. Speaker, he was talking about the refusal of a license , a minister may refuse a license and he said the review was to the Executive Council . And he questioned as to ~1hether there should be more than this . liell , l-l.r .

Speaker, this govern­ ment has done, has taken all sorts of steps to give rights to citizens in this Province such as they have never had before . The hon. gentleman said yesterday that this 1vas going to be for the purpose - apoarently there was going to be , now a core of Tory well drillers . This is what he was on in his speech yesterday . Now the reason for this bill is precisely this : the drilling of an artersian 1vell is now, as a lot of things are , a verv, very costly and very involved matter. The Province, I think, has a cert ain 4787

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1729 DW - 2 MR. W. MARSHALL: responsibility to assure that the people who are drilling these wells are qualifi e d. And this is precisely what this bill is all about, to assure that the people who hold themselves out as deep or artesian well drillers,have the necessary training and expertise to be able to do it. It is a consumer piece of legislation, another, as I say, great step forward. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. >If. MARSHALL: As far as the appeal goes, Mr. Speaker, the appeal is there. There is quite adequate appeal as far as the government is concerned . .

We have the Human Rights Commission, we have all other protections which have been built in by this government. I do not know what else. The hon. gentleman was mentioning about the penalties 1 but I really do not think he was serious when he said that. There has to be a penalty there because there are certain duties set down there by people who are not resoonsible in other areas. ri[R . S . NEARY : (Inaudible) . MR. W. MARSHALL: Now, if the hon. gentleman would follow on I said because there are certain responsibilities there of people who are otherwise responsible in other areas.

You know, I m e an T r e fer the hon. gentleman to the Mahoney Com- mission a nd the Mahoney Commission report, recommendation number- I cannot quite now remember, something like seven - teen or eighteen - and if the hon. gentleman wants to read the back-up,he will see the reason why that great piece of legislation - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. >If. Mli.RSHALL: And then now, Mr. Speak e r, we get on. The hon. gentlernan:±alked about the notion about the wells in the back of the country or the water systems in the back o f the c o untry.

All I can say is that t h is gov e rn- ment has done its b e st and continues to do its utmost to provide artesians wells where they are required. 4788 .. .

1 May 22, 1981 Taoe No. 1729 OW - 3 MR . W. MARSHALL: And 1..>! th these remarks I hope I have answered the hon . gentleman and I move second reading Mr . Speaker . On motion, a bill, hAn Act Re- specting The Drilling Of Water Wells And Conservation And Use Of Ground - ~'1ater, " read a second time , ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently , by leave . (Bill No . 6) MR . ~1ARS!IALL: Order 1~, Bill No. 18 . Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Historic Objects, Sites And Records Act, 1973". (Bill No . 18) MR . SPEAKER (Butt): The hon. President of the Council . MR . W.

MARSHALL: Mr . Speaker , I do not think that this bill will reouire - even though it is a bill of some importance - that it will require a great deal of debate . SOME HON. 1-IEMBERS: Oh, oh! 47 89 .......

May 22, 1981 Tape 1730 EC - 1 MR . MARSHALL: No , it is a bill of some great importance because in 1976, the Task Force on the Newfoundland Museum recommended an amendment to the act which governs the mandate of the museum to include natural history objects and to better express the contemporary role of the museum, which this does , and it relates to objects outside . As I say, it was not considered befor:., because before •..Jhen it had been on the Order Paper , we had been emeshed in such debates and the Flag Debate and what have you, other\.,ise it would have been passed the last sessio n.

But I move second reading . ~lR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Is it the pleasure of the House that said bill be now read a secor1d time? f.iR . NEARY: Mr . Speaker, I want to ask the hon . gen tle~an a couple o; questions about this bill . MR . SPEAKER (Butt) : NEARY: ( -:r.;;:.•Jc').hJ.e) • The hon . the member for LaPoile . Thank you , Sir, I appreciate ·t-hat . I want to ask the hon . gentleman when the museum that was here in Confederation Building - the army and navy, the Military Museum that was up here on the 11th Floor of Confederation Building- when it was moved out of this building and moved down to Nr .

Ryan ' s building in downtown St . John's , was it done by calling public tender, or did the government enter into some kind of a sweetheart deal with the owners and operators of the Murray premises to move the museum down on the \-taterfront and move it out of reach of everybody, move it out of the center of activity , move it out of the area where people had access to it and move it to do\mtown St. John ' s that is congested with traffic, no parking space downtown? ~·/hen it was here in Confederation Building it was easy, at least the school children and the 47 90

May 22, 1981 Tape 1730 EC - 2 MR . NEARY : people had access to it . They "'ere pouring in and out of Confederation Building by the thousands every year . .Every year a new record '''as established for visiting the museum . But then, all of a sudden, somebody fo\lnd a milch cow and they moved it do~•n on the waterfront i n the ~lurray Pre>.rnises . t<!r . Speaker, what kind of a deal was made on that?

What kind of a sweetheart deal? ~'O\v 1 I canno t ask about the liquor store under this hill , because this is not a bil l to amend the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation , but the hon. gentleman is well up on liquor leases in this Province . He is well up on them \-lhen it comes to the Liberals 1 btlt he is not well up on liquor leases when it comes to the Premier ' s bUddies . So I can only deal with the museum that •daS here in Confederation Building .

If 1-1e had to move it out of Confederation Bui l ding - and I do not know .,,hat the llth Floor of Confederation Building is being used for at the presen t time - but if we had to move it out , it could have been moved to a more central location 1 i ·t could have been moved into an area •11here people at least had parking space . It could have been moved over to the Arts and Culture Centre , it could 4791

May 22,1981 Tape No . 1731 AH-1 MR . NEARY: have been moved anywhere in the general area- where stu'dents could come in in their buses and visit the museum. Now I understand when you go down there you have to pay 1 you have to pay to park. You have to put a quarter in the slot machine to get in to get a place to park or pay security 1 a fello\ol standing there almost like a policeman , pay him a dollar or a dollar and a half to go in and park so you can see your mvn mussum - almost behind he Iron Curtain. 1\<lr .

Speaker , I think it is outrageous and the government ought to explain to this House if public tenders were called for space . for that museum or did they just enter into a st•leetheart arrangement to{ith tiLe 01mers so that they could take the contracts for the museum and the liqu or store to the bank and get their money that they needed to carry out the renovations,plus the federal funding, to carry out their renovations to that premises? AN HOf\f. f'!EMB ER : It is scandalous . HR .

NEARY: Of course it is scandalous but,of course,the minister when he gets up now,he vlill again, like he did there a few. moments ago, he will get up and he will be nasty and he vlill skirt around it and he \•till pat the government on the b;;~ck and say , 'Oh, all the wonderful things we are doing for the consumer in this Provi nce ', when the bill we ~tere talking about ther e a few moments ago had nothing to do with the consumer!" it had to do t·lith regulations . MR . MARSHALL: (Inaudible) protecting them . l-1R . NEARY : Protection . Some protection for t~e consumer alright .

MR . 'IOORES: (Inaudible) $2 .5 million, l<IR . NEARY: Pardon? MR . f.!OORES: The Sir Humphrey Gilbert historic site. 4782

May 22,1981 Tape No . 1731 AH-2 NR . NEARY : That is right, Mr . Speaker , that is another thing that I \vant the hon . gentleman to tell us about when we are tal king about this bill, about

An Act To Amend The Histor i c Objects,Sites And Records Act , 1979 . We have this silly notion now on the part of the City Council; they want to put up a monument to Sir Humphrey Gilbert , I am told,$2 . 5 million and looking for provincial help, provincial assista nce . MR . HANCOCK: And we have school c hildren being bused forty miles a day and they are going to contribute to something like that . MR . NEARY : To put a monument here in the City of St . John 's for Sir Humphrey Gilbert - t-IR. HANCOCK: I will bring the House dO\vn. MR. NEARY : -Mr .

Speaker , \.;hen the needs are so great , so heavy in the rural parts of this Province . You knO\v, people cannot get water and se ... ,er systems, they are still forced to use the outdoor privies , they cannot get their roads done , they cannot get the resources in their areas developed , they cannot ne\., schools , they cannot get teachers , t hey ca nnot hang their clothes on the clothesline because of the dust from the roads,and here you have this crowd in St . Joh n's talking about spending $2 . 5 million on a monument to Sir Humphrey Gilbert . MR .

HANCOCK: I hear they are going to put a gold toot h in him . 47 83

May 22, 1981 MR. NEARY: out of gold or what? SOME HON . 1-lEMBERS : MR . STIRLING: the Titanic . Tape No . 1732 NM - 1 Mr . Speaker, is it going to be built Oh, oh ! That is going to be·(inaudible) to ~IR. 'l'UT.K: Yes, that is \~hat that is, they are going t:o moor the Titanic to the 'l'ory (inaudible) ~IR . NEARY : That is right . Well, I do not know . My hon . friend is the authority but my hon . friend says $2 . 5 million spent on putting up a monument to Sir Humphrey . $2 . 5 million is more than the whole total spent outside of St . John 's in the last ten years on historic sites and objects . MR.

CARTER: MR . HANCOCK: MR. NEARY: from St . John 's . AN liON. HEMBER: not know about it . MR . NEARY: (Inaudible) right? Listen to this : The Legion could not get any help- Listen 'Stev The City Council and the Tory · inisters You are not in the Cabinet 'John' you 1oJOU!d You were on the inside one time but Mr . Moores gave you the royal order of the boot. SOHE HON . ~IE~1BERS : Hear, hear ! MR. NEARY: So now the hon . gentleman does not know what is going on . MR. HANCOCK: They could contribute to a war memorial for legionnaries, they will not contribute to .

And if I find out they are going to contribute to Sir Humphrey Gilbert and •,rould not contribute to our wa~ dead, to et:eet to their rrerrories - 47 94 I•

May 22, 1981 Tape No . 1732 NN - 2 HR. NEARY : Mr . Speaker , I have no objection to preserving our history . I am all for preserving our history . As a matter of .fact 1 I think that 1ve have allOI·ted our his tory to be scattered to the four winds in this Province . I have no objection to that at all. I think we should preserve our history the same as they do in Great Britain, in England, and in European countries . I suppose in London, England, they preserve their history moreso than any other country in the \vorld . tom . 'l'IIOHS: Only four members of the government in the House . MR .

NEARY: They are not interested in legislation . They could not care less . Legislation bores them . I do not know what they think the House is here for, Mr . Speaker . ~ffi. HANCOCK: Get it though and get out . MR . NEARY : Legislation is monotonous and boring and the sun is shining now and everybody wants to get out; Every­ body wants to get out . Well, Mr. Speaker, I will stay here until August. I will stay here until August . If they want to clear off the Order Paper, ~tc will clean it off but there l•till be no rushing . Last year - ~1R .

THOMS : The people in the galleries see what . the> Tories - ho1.,. they attend the House. Look, three of them in the House . t1R. NEARY : My hon. friend should get up and speak in this debate . SOME HON . ~IBERS: Hear, hear : t-1R. NEAR'{ : Mr . Speaker, I would say this - MR . Tf!OMS: All those people in the galleries and only four Tories in the House. MR . SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! MR . THOMS: Shame! Shame! 4785 (t

May 22 , 1981 Tape No . 1732 NM - 3 NR . SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! The hon . member for LaPoile has the floor . ~1R . NEARY: We were elected to this House, Mr . Speaker , to do the people ' s business . MR . THOMS: I know the Speaker must be embarrassed . The Speaker has got to be embarrassed . MR . SPEAKER: Order , please! Order , please : The hon . member for LaPoile has the floor . HR . NEARY : We were elected to this House , ~lr . Speaker, to carry on the people ' s business and part of the people ' s business is passing legislation and passing estimates. So far we have nine hours left 4796

May 22, 1981 Tape No . 1733 so - 1 MR . NEARY: on the committees that report to this House, three hours each , nine hours . We have a couple of hours left on the headings \ve are doing now, the headings that are supposed to be done in the House . \._,e have the budget debate and the House cannot close until the budget debate is finished . Hon. members should~ ~hat that the government cannot lawfully spend money until the budget debate is fi nished . And legislation is the oLher thing that 1<1e have to do . Now, we have an av;ful lot of legislation on the Order Paper .

We have one, t•,.ro, three and a half pages of leoislation almost four pages of lenislation . And every year, Mr . Speaker , the government tr~ to railroad legislation through this House, sneak it through at the last minute . It all goes through in one day , sometimes in one hour but I can guarantee you this year it is not going to happen. If I have to move roy bed in here, there is no v1ay that we are going to have a bottleneck at the end . And every bill is going to be thoroughly debated,as far as I am concerned .

That is what I was sent here for to do the people's business and I intend to do it even if it takes me up to t-l-te middle of August . ~~ R . HANCOCK: SOM.E HON . I-1El4BERS: MR. NEAR 'f : himself to that . MR . MARSHALL: You have three minutes . Oh, oh~ And the hon . member better resolve Nit-~ th~ ~on. gentleman's leave, I would like to get on with the ourpose of the bill . MR . NEARY: Yes .

The purpose of t.h<> bill: To alter the mandate o£ the Ne1"foundland t'luseum as set forth in the Hiscoric Objects,Sites And Records Act, 1973, it would express more clearly the con~rary role of the museum and in particular include a reference to natural hlstory:and that is what I am talking about, ~tt. Soeaker . 47 87

~lay 22, 1981 Tape No . 1733 so - 2 MR . NEARY : We have not , in the past, preserved our history the way that we should have in this Province . And I am glad right nov1 that Mr. Smallwood, the former Premier of this Province , is doing an encyclopedia on Newfoundland in three volumes . It 1o1ill be the most elaborate encyclopedia straight facts. no politics- it will be a factual thing , it will go in every high school in this Province , it will go in every library in Ne ... lfoundlanc.l . SOME HON. ~IRMBE'l.S : ----·- Oh , oh !. MH. NEARY: No, Mr .

Soeaker~ it will be an encyclopedia that will be done ~n three volumes and I understand the first volume is scheduled to go to the orinter , I believe , in July or it 1-1ill be out in July , volume one . It will take ahout five w~a~s to do it, seven research assistants and , Mr . Soeaker, 1 might say it is being done without any support from this government . AN HON . MEMBER: ~R . STIRLING : Did you hear that now? MR . NEAqY: That is for sure . Evcrvbodv else; Government of Canada , business people, industrialists but not this crowd here, not this cro1-td of 47 98

tolay 22, 1981 MR . NEARY : SOME HON • ~!EMBERS : MR . SPEAKER (Butt) : t-lR . NEAR X' : SOME HON • MEl-1BERS: MR . SPEAKER: ?>IR . NEARY: Tape 1734 bigots , Hr . Speaker . Oh , o h! Order , pleas e ! EC - 1 It will be an encyclopedia - Oh , oh ! Order , please ! Order, please ! - that lvill be as good as the Encyclopedia Americana or Encyclopedia Britann ica . MR . SPEAKER: Order, please ! Order, please ! ' Bigots ' has been ruled as unparliamentary and I would ask the hon . member to ~lithdra1..r that . 14R . THOMS: Mr . Speaker , you have already- Mr . Speaker has a l ready ruled (inaudible) of class . MR .

NE.a.RY : Political ' bigots ' is not - HR . THOMS: He is (inaudible) his 01m rule no{-7, MR . NEARY : Well, if it Hill make the House happy, I 1·lithdra1o~, Mr . Speaker . Mr . Speake.z: , it 1..ri 11 be the equivalent of the Encyclopedia Britannica , the Encyclopedia Amer icana . Pe rhaps my academic £riends can tell me what other encyclopedias - AN HON. MEt-1BER: The American Library of Congress . MR . NEARY : The American Library of Congress . It 1"ill be the equivalen t . The only difference is that it vrill carry bits and pieces of information about !-lewfoundland .

Every aspect of Ne~rfoundland life will be carried in that encyclopedia , so that t•,renty, thirty , forty , fifty , a hundred yeat:s , tHO hundred years do1m the road, o ur great ­ great grandchildren lvill be able to go into the library and see what haopened in Nel,•foundland back in the early days . MR . TOLK' The years the Tories •,rere in . Are chey going to do anything about the last ten years? 4799 ·~·

May 22 , 1981 MR . NEARY: I wish he 11/0Uld. MR . TULK: MR . NEARY : Tape 1734 EC - 2 The last ten years! no , There are enough (inaudible) . I wish he would . ~tr . Speaker , I am glad that that is being done , and we srould be all proud of that and we should be right behind the former Premier of this Province . MH . CARTER: (Inaudible) . MR. NEARY : Well , if the hon . gentleman does not like it , it is a f.ine day . It .,.,ould be a nice day on your hands and knees up in the savory patch , crawling around pulling weeds . SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh , oh ! MR. NEARY : Mr .

Speaker , I am all for this kind of thing because I think this is the only way that we can preserve our history . We have, for instance, do•.m in my district of LaPoile, in Cape Ray, a Dorset site, a site of the Dorsets , and it is just lying there . I have gone there myself and dug for arrowheads . I did not find any , but I have been there digging for arro1·1heads . AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)your Ot·rn grave. MR .

NEARY: No, the hon . gentleman no1.,r has the civil servants - the 1~ord has gone out to the civil servants in Bonavista to carry around the petition on the directions of the hon. gentleman . lvell, I can tell the hon. gentleman, they are not getting very far, that the hon. gentleman'!> f;I.unkies and hatchet men are going to be rejected in Bonavista . AN HON . 1-IE~IBER: MR . NEARY: SOME HON. aE:"BERS: MR . SPEAKEa (B~tt) : Flunkies? Flunkies, that is right . Oh, oh~ Order, please! 4800

May 22, 1981 Tape 1734 EC - 3 MR. NEARY : A flunky is one who works for - this department we are talking about now, by the way - a political appointee in the lighthouse at Bonavista. MR. HARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order . 4 B u 1

May 22, 1981 Tape No . 1735 EL - 1 ~ffi . SPEAKER (Lutt) : A point of order, the hon . the President of the Council . t<IR . MARSHALL : •rhe hon . member is mentioning digging (inaudible) I mean he is real~y digging deep now. But he is digging be­ yond the realms of this act when he talks about it . I mean, he can talk about these things if he wants to when there are other times . He cu n talk about it in gossip to his friends and all the rest of it, b1.tt \ve are consideri ng a bill now and let him keep on the subject . ~ . t.JEARlt': MR. SPEAKER : member for LaPoile . To the point of order , t-tr . Speaker.

To the point of order , the hon . MR . ~~ARY : Mr. Speaker , I believe the hon . gen- tleman heard me refer to the lighthouse in Bona vist a •O'Ihich is an histo ric object \vhere you ha ve a political appointee , the campaign chairman for the member for Bonavista (J . Morgan) appointed to look after that lighthouse . And that was my re­ ference and I think that that comes under this bill, Mr . Speaker . MR . MARSHALL: Mr . Speaker, if I could just say - SOME HON . NEMBERS : Oh, oh ! t-m . HARSHALL: To the point of order , Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: President of the Council . MR .

MARSHALL: To the point of order , the hon . t he For that matler, the hon . gentleman himsel f is an historic object or fast becoming one . AN HON. ~&~ER: Could I move the adjournment of the House ? MR . SPEl\KER : Order , please ! To the point of order , I think it is fair to say that the hon . me~ber for LaPoile (S . Neary) was stray- ing somewhat from the ~ill , even though there is broad-ranging

May 22 , 1 98 1 Tape No7"17 35 EL - 2 MR . SPEAKER (Butt) : debate on second reading but I fail to see what anything of a political nature in Bonavista South really has to do 1.rith historical sites and ob- jects . The hon . member for LaPoile . t-1R . HANCOCK: Should not be visiting historical sites in a helicopter, paid for by the taxpayers. 11R. NEARi.': Mr . Speaker, I would like to kno•,.,. if that job was advertis.,..i. , the job looking after the h.istoric lighthouse •oJR.S advertised . ~IR . t-10RGAN: 1>1R . NEARY : I wi~l look after Lhe {inaudible) in Bonavista.

Oh, yes , that is right, the hon . gcn- tleman can look after his own . MR . IIAN~CCK : He had better do a better job than he is doing , or he "''ill not get elected next time . i>1R . NEARY : That is one of the questions I would like to put to the minister l·tho introduced this bill 1 \..rho seems to be int roducing all the bills today . Who is responsible for historic objects anyway? MR . TULK : Hal Andrews: MR . NEARY : 'Hal . He is not here . so , Mr .

Speaker, these are some of the questions I would like to see ans\.rered but the main one , the main guescion that I want an answer to. has to do Hith the transfer of the Military Museum from Confederation Building to downtown St . John ' s, down to the premises that were restored under federal funding . ~/hat kind of a contract? Will the hon . gentleman table the agreement and tell us if public tenders were called before - AN HON . NEMBER: v!ho is llr . Ryan? M.R . NE:t>.RY: \oiho is Mr . Ryan? You mean you do not know Mr . Ryan . ~lr . Ryan is the real boss of this Prov ­ ince . 48 U3

May 22, 1981 Tape No . 1735 EL - 3 SOME HON . ~·EMBERS : Oh , oh ! MR . NEARY: I mean, the Premier only jumps when Mr . Ryan pulls the strings - and tell us if public ten­ ders were called and if it went out to the lowest bidder. I thi nk that is a fair question . The people are entitled to have that information . MR . MOORES: anyway . MR . HANCOCK: Premier? ~1R . NEARY: A democratic way of doing things, How did he get that close to the How did he get so close? Down in the Chateau Park Hotel, I think . Mr .

Speaker, the oLher thing I ~'ant to know about is this Sir Humphery Gilbert memorial. 1-lill the Province be contributing to\o~ards this? How much and why? We want to know why . MR . HANCOCK: If they do, she goes up here . If they do , this House is going up. ~1R . NEARY: Because if they do cont~ibute we are going put her up in this House . MR . HANCOCK: Right on . Hear, hear! l>1R . NEARY : put her up . And the people of this Province should 48u4

t-!ay 22, 1981 Tape No . 1736 OW-l MR . NEARY: Mr . Speaker, before I got sidetracked by the President of the Council (/<lr . Marshall) - MR . HANCOCK: And if they pave the Witless Bay Line,she is going up . NR . NEARY : Before I got sidetracked by the President of the Council there a fe\~ moments ago I was talking about the Dorset site. AN RON . NEI<lH~~R: (Inaudible) line . 14R . HANCOCK: Nhat? No (inaudible) way . If Lhat is paved before the school childt·en ' s (inaudible) gets paved, she is going up . I am telling you she is going up . I will bring down the House on that one . we will bring her down . MR.

SPEAKER (BUTT): Order, please ! Order, please ! MR . N£AR'l: Before I got sidetracked I \-las talking about the Dorset site in Cape Ray . It is just laying there, nothing has been done. Some university archaeologist \-lent down there a few years ago and dug for arro\o;heads the same as I did, found some artilacts, arrowheads, and then took them away, took them away from the site! Mr. Speaker, that should not be allowed ! Where are these artifacts nm-1? t-lhere are they? Are they in the museum?

There should be some kind of an on-site development and that artifact should be left on the site of the Dorsets in Cape Ray ! They should be left where they were found ! Taken at•ay and brought again into •rory St . John's~ Into Tory St . John ' s~ 1-lherever they find- there are seven Tory ministers from eleven districts in St. John's that elect members, seven Tory ministers . So they go doto~n to Cape Ray and they rob the artifacts, the Memorial University cro\..;d, and bring them inLo St . John's ! \.,tell, where are these artifacts?

Are they over here at the university or are they in the 1\rchlves or are they in the museum? MR . :1ARSHALL: They are Hell accounted f o r. MR . NEARY: Nhere are they? 48u5

!"lay 22 , 1981 Tape No . 1.736 Dl<l - 2 MR. NARSHALL: They are well accounted for . MR . S . NEARY: They are t,rell accou nted for . 1-iell , account to the House for them no•11? Ancl account to the people out in Cape ~ay and the Southwest corner of the Province! Account to them for them! Never mind keening it to your ­ self , it is not a private matter . And, Mr . Speaker, there should be some identification on that site . There are two or three other Dorset sites around Nelvfoundlancl , Cape Ray is the most famous one . AN liON . "1EMBER: MR . S . NEARY: AN HON . MEMBER: MR . S . NEARY: (Inaudible) . Dorset .

Dorsett· Yes, Sir . And there should be a sign. There are no signs to show you that it is a Dorset site . There is not hing on the history of it apart from an

article that was written in thPGulf Ne1-.rs "' fet>~ vears aqo . Not even a sign to show you how to get down to it . And that is not good enough , ~1r . Speaker . Everything goes in St . John ' s , on Signal Hill and d01vntown St . John ' s and down in the Murray Premises . Well, .,..·hy can they not have their little historic monument in Ca~e Ray? 1•/hy can they not? Because it is rural Newfoundland? I could go on , ~1r . Soeaker, forever hut I have no intention of delaying the proceedings of the 1-!ouse on this particular bill.

But it gives us an opportunity to talk about the p~eservation of our history in this Province, something that \~e have neqlected over the years ! Do not think that this bill is going to change that. It is a matter of philosoohy ! It is a matter of policy ! This government

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1737 AH - 1 MR. NEARY : has a policy of when it is convenient to play up, use organizations, when it is politically expedient to play up the status of women, they do it, and when it is politically expedient to play up historic objects and sites and records, they do it. All it is is window dressing, public relations. They have no more intention of preserving the history of this Province noH than my little chihuahua. It is shameful! Mr. Speaker, I wish I could go on for an unlimited period of time talking about this but, as I say, I do not wish to delay the proceedings of the House.

Maybe I will get an opportunity at some future date to talk about the way that we have allowed our history and the records to be scattered to the four winds. We have allowed American tourists and Americans and mainlanders to come in here and practically rob out of the homes in the outports of this Province historic objects and carry them off to the United States and off to the mainland of Canada. HR. HODDER: RCMP officers. MR. NEARY: Are RCMP officers robbing them too. MR. HODDER: Yes, that is right.

They go down to the little outports and they pick up everything they can for a few cents and take it back (inaudible) . MR. NEARY : Well, Mr. Speaker, this is pretty serious business. All the antiques and all the historic objects in Newfoundland carried away, carried away to the main­ land or down to the United States. Mr. Speaker, let me give the House an example. Out in my own district, again, of Isle aux Morts - I am sure the school students have read about Ann Harvey. Ann Harvey was a resident of Isle aux Morts on the South,,;est corner of the Province, who saved dozens of lives.

On two separate occasions she and her father rowed out in a boat, she and her father and a dog, and the dog brought the rope from the boat to the small boat they were in so that people could come ashore out of 46;j7

May 22 , 1981 •rape No . 1737 AH - 2 MR. NEARY : this this liner that went ashore of Isle aux Morts , so that people could climb on the rope to get as hore . And for that Ann Harvey was awarded a medal by the King , a medal and a few gold coins . I do not know ho~o~ many gold coi ns but there may be other people here who kno w more about it than I do . But I have read the story of Ann Harvey of Isle a~x Morts , a very interesting story . Now , Mr . Speaker , the reason I a m raising t his is what has happened to that medal? \~hat has happened to it? Is it sti l l in Isle aux l<!orts?

Is it still in the Harvey family? Or has it been taken out of Ne\ifOundland and away to the mai nland somewhere or has it been lost? I bel i eve that is the kind of thing that .,,e should be researching . We should try to find that Ann Harvey ' s medal for bravery , that she \-las given for bravery . We should find thclt medal and ask the 01·mers if they would give it up so that we can put: it for safekeeping in the Newfoundland ~luseum or in the Archives . tve should be doing this continuously , on a contin uous basis , searching out ou.r history . Nhy we are nothing, Mr . Speaker , if 4S us I•

May 22, 1981 Tape 1738 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: we do not know our history, we are nothing. Some people I know would like to forget about it. Some people would like to forget about 'whence they sprung', but I am not one of these people and I would like to see more research done of the kind that I just suggested - try to find Ann Harvey's medal that she was given for bravery, for rescuing all these people from a ship that got shipwrecked off Isle aux Morts.

And han. gentlemen may think this is boring and monotonous and a waste of time, but I happen to think - we have certainly spent a lot of time on things that are far less important in this House than trying to preserve our history. So I support the bill, Mr. Speaker, and I support it with these few suggestions that I made and the few questions that I put to the han. gentleman that I hope to get answers to; but I can see by the smirk on the han. gentleman's face that I am likely to be disappointed, that there will be no answers forthcoming. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please!

I would like to welcome to the galleries on behalf of all hon. members, twenty-seven Grade X students from Cape John Collegiate, LaScie. in the district of Baie Verte - White Bay, with their teacher, Mr. Gerald Burton. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: h'ith respect to a point of order raised by the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) arising out of remarks made by the hon. the member for Placentia U1r.

Patterson), I have checked Hansard and found that the remarks made by the hon. member were, and I quote: "That is a lie." I want to point out to hon. members that they cannot say indirectly what they would say directly, and since there is a very fine line here in this particular case, in order to dispense with the 48l.J9

May 22, 1981 Tape 1738 EC - 2 HR . SPEAKER (Butt) : matter, I \40uld simply ask the hon . the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) to withdraw his remarks . MR . I?A'rTERSON: Mr . Speaker , I certainly withdraw the wor d ' lie '. I am s ure the hon . member did not deliberately lie to the House . But meetings are being held in Placentia today with the Newfoundland Medical Association, and t he Department of Health and I am sure a stateme 11t 1vill be fon:ncoming that I ~>Jill be proven right and he will be proven right ; the doctor resigned, later his privileges were rescinded . I \4i thdraw that word ' lie ' .

MR . HODDER: On a point o£ order, Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: Order , please ! member for Port au Port . MR . HODDER: On a point of order , the hon . the It is my understanding from the rules of this House, Mr . Speaker, that it must be an unqualif i ed withdrawal . The hon . member did not ~~ithdraw in an unqualified way , he quali£ied his remarks . MR. MARSHALL: To the point of order , Mr . Speaker . ~R . SPEAKER: To the point of order, the bon . the President of the Council. MR. l~RSHALL: Mr .

Speaker, if ever there was an unqualified vlithdrat.,ral, there was an unqualified withdrawal and the hon . gentleman just 1vent on to explain the particular situation . The words he said were : ' I withdraw .' Now, I do not know 14hat hon . gentlemen wish, you know , do they want a pilgrimage to somewhere or something like that? MR . SPEAKER: Order , please ! It is my

interpretation that the hon . member did, you know, withdraw the unparl~amcntary term; however , he did follow wil'.h a brief explanation, but he did make an unequivocal Hithd rawa l. Therefore, there is no point of order . 4 8 ., 0 ' .-

May 22, 1981 Tape 1738 EC - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Butt} : If the hon. the President of the Council (~tr . Marshall) speaks now, he closes debate on this bill . MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I want to speak for just a few moments in answer to the observations that the hon. gentleman made . I would like first of all to touch upon - ln the course of his debate he said he was going to debate every piec~ vf legislation and he would stay here until the middle of August if that were necessar}''; I would encourage him to do so if that is what he wants to do .

As far as I am concerned, I am prepared to stay here until the end of December. I have every intention, Mr. Speaker, of being here until the year 2000. I think the next election will probably take care of the tenure of the hon . the member for LaPoile (Mr . Neary), but we will have to wait and see. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 4 8 '11

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1739 SD - 1 MR. MARSHALL: substance. MR. THOMS: Now, Mr. Speaker, to whatever Can I hear (inaudible)? MR. ~~RSHALL: You would not _save your nomination fee. They cannot even stand people who were once Liberals, let alone Liberals. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. THOMS: You are like a yellow dog, you run around (Inaudible) a yellow dog. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR. MARSHALL : ~o, they have always gone for quality in St. John's East, there is a living example standing before you right now. Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentle­ man was meandering and wandering again.

I think it is - you know, he is the senior member in the House so we have to allow the senior member, older people, from time to time, to meander and wander away from the subject as the hon. gentleman was doing. So I am only going to spend just a few moments addressing myself to the questions he asked.

Now typical of the hon. gentleman, you know, you could not get a nice little bill extending the Historic Objects, Sites and Records Act and extending the Newfoundland museum beyond objects to individuals as this does, because it says it is to be extended for the purpose of demonstrating the works of man and the products of nature, you could not do that, of course, without the hon. gentleman talking about various things that titillate his fancy about certain people, including Mr. Ryan.

And the Ryan premises, as he called them, are historic premises, they are premises that were put up with the aid of his friends in Ottawa, the federal government. They are the Murray Premises. Not the Ryan Premises, the Murray Premises. They lend themselves very,

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1739 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: very well, their whole charac- teristic to a museum. I do not believe the museum is sited down there yet, it is going to be in the very near future. But anyone who traverses the Murray Premises, you have people from time to time saying, 'I wonder when the museum is going to be down here because the atmosphere down here is such that it is conducive to a museum'. Now, as to his particular questions, Mr. Speaker, as to the lease, I have to confess I cannot answer immediately right now. The lease, Mr. Speaker, was entered into by the previous administration. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL : And, Mr. Speaker, as the hon. gentlemen there opposite know, I was not, in its latter incarnation, a close member of the previous administration. But I do understand, Mr. Speaker, that in accordance with Tory policies and philosophy at the time, that an indepth analysis was made of the available sites, all sorts of proposals were reviewed, and it was deemed by the officials, I believe, of the government, not by the nasty politicians and not by the Tory politicians, that this was the most appropriate place to put it. So there she sits, Mr. Speaker, and there it is.

And unfortunately, yes, Mr. Speaker, unfortunately to his chagrin, it is in St. John's but the museum was always in St. John's. As to Sir Humphrey Gilbert - now, he loves to talk about St. John's, I just have to say this, he gives the impression that there is nothing being done out in St. John's. Even when he was talking about the Well Drilling Act he was talking about St. John's. I do not know of any artesian wells that are being dug in the middle of Rawlins Cross or, £or that matter, down on Water Street. It is the same way here; the hospitals 4 8 •] 3

May 22,1981 Tape No. 1740 AH-1 MR. MARSHALL: being built infuis place. He of this Province are all is rejecting the hospital and we are going to put it there in spite of him. They are being put in Clarenville, they are being put down in Salt Pond in Burin and in Grand Falls. MR. THOMS: MR. MARSHALL: April fools (Inaudible) The April fool will be on the han. member when he sees it going up. But anyway, insofar as historic objects go,apart from the hon. member who is an historic object representing an area outside St.

John's, we have a great deal of work that is being done by this government in conjunction with the federal government which, in these areas,is prepared to co-operate,would that it were in others. In Cape Spear, in Port au Choix, Red Bay Labrador, all around the circle, Mr. Speaker, we are dedicating as much money7 this government is as conscious as any of the heritage of this Province and we are diverting as much of the resources as we can to the preservation of our heritage, including historic objects. As for Sir Humphrey Gilbert, Mr. Speaker, I do not know of what he talks.

Maybe the City Council is making a proposal like this. I doubt very much, Mr. Speaker, whether we would find hugh amounts of money - as much as we might like to. We might like to,for instance,Mr. Speaker, be able to find money to carve the effigy of the bon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary} in that granite mountain down in Petites or wherever it is, you know, one of these days,but we just cannot afford that and neither can we afford 1 I would think 1 any large amounts as much and as important as the anniversary of Sir Humphrey Gilbert will be. So , Mr. Speaker, I think I have answered it all.

The medal that he wants us to go search for - I would like to search for the medal and I 4 B ·1 4 .-.,

May 22,1981 Tape No. 1740 AH-2 MR. MARSHALL: would love for the hon. gentleman to go off for a period of time and let him go diving and searching for the medals. I think , Mr. Speaker, he would really be using his time t0 much better advantage than he has exhibited,the way he is using and utilizing his time in addressing himself to the principle of this bill. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Historic Objects, Sites And Records Act, 1973," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presentl~ by leave. (Bill No. 18) MR. MARSHALL: Order 15, Bill No. 31.

Motion, second readinq of a bill, "An Act To Establish The Newfoundland And Labrador Youth Advisory Council," (Bill No. 31) MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr. Speaker, just a few words on this and then I will sit down and hear what incisive comments are going to be made by the hon. gentlemen there opposite and then we will respond to them. This is a bill,Mr. Speaker, to establish a Newfoundland and Labrador Advisory Council. Again this is in the name of the hon. the Minister of Recreation, Culture·and Youth (Mr. Andrews) who is- MR. STIRLING: Why is he not here? MR.

MARSHALL: The han. minister is so en- thralled at the fact that the leader's colleagues in Ottawa are finally going to sign an agreement that , I think, he wanted to be in that place in plenty of time just to be sure he did not miss the bon. ministers coming down to sign the agreement on the West coast of the Province. '-- ..

May 22,1981 Tape No. 1740 AH-3 MR. STIRLING: But he had a helicopter to go to Bonavista for a fishing trip last weekend, can he not use the same service to get in (inaudible) enough? MR. MARSHALL: I do not tiUnk he needs a helicopter. You know, he flies. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, a few brief words on the - 1-1~. STIRLING: for fishing trips do you ? MR. MAPC:HALL: You only use the helicopter No . In June of 1976 , there was legislation brought in this House to establish a Newfoundland and Labrador Youth Commission as an agency of government. Under that same act the Youth Advisory Council 4816

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1741 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: was established. Now, as time progressed, since 1976, it became apparent to both youth and government that the Youth commission as delineated in that '76 statute,was unable to meet its mandate. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, note this now, note this, in addition to the Tory legislation, good Tory legislation, a resolution was unanimous 'ly passed at the 1978 Provincial Youth Conference requesting that the Youth Advisory Council act on behalf of youth.

And that is what this bill is allabout, it is to give statutory effect to the Youth Advisory Council in this Province,and the terms of it are very clearly set out in the bill. It is going to consist of nine members who will be taken from all regions of the Province. Nine of them will be elected and three of them will be appointed, so you have twelve in all. The Council's mandate,as set forth in

section 9. 'To research and investigate matters relating to youth and such youth programmes as it may feel are appropr,iate and to advise the minister with respect ·to some.' I can say, Mr. Speaker, that this Council is already operating, and is operating very, very effectively at the present time. But there is a desire, and an understandable desire that legislation be enacted because the Council feels · it has no real authority to speak on behalf of the youth of Newfoundland and Labrador and this is what this bill will do. It is another piece of progressive legislation, another instance, Mr.

Speaker, of this government, as it has done in the case of the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, and the advisory councils of this, that, and the other, to formalize certain interest groups in this Province 1 to encourage them in the new democracy that has dawned in this Province since 4 8 '1 7 .~!

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1741 . NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: the 1970s, to speak on their interests and to come to government rather than to run away from government like beaten sheep and this is what it is for. And we find the Youth Advisory Council, Mr. Speaker, to be one of the most .beneficial of them and we look forward to the fostering and nurturing of it in the years to come. Perhaps there may have to be amendments in the future,but we will have to wait and see as it progresses. But in the meantime,we feel this is a progressive piece of legislation and I know the hon. member for St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr.

Hancock) is going to agree with us on it. Because the hon. member for St. Mary's - The Capes is a very reasonable individual and I know he will greet this bill with the reasonableness which is characteristic of him. AN HON. MEMBER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HANCOCK: More money. Hear, hear! The hon. member for St. Mary's - The Capes. Hear, hear! Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am glad that the minister just made up my mind for me, or he thinks he has it made up. But, Mr. Speaker, I have no objection to a Youth Advisory Bill.

I think it is something that should have been in place for the last fifty years. But there are a few flaws in the bill , and I will point them out as I go through it, Mr. Speaker. We _see the youth of this Province, Mr. Speaker, and sane of the problems they are faced with today that we never had when we were growing up. I can remember when I grew up there was no such thing as a joint, or a toke, or a dozen beer, you just could not get it. It was not in the community that I was brought up in.

All we had was the home brew and the parents controlled that and there was no way the children could get at it unless they stole it from their parents. And that happened on occasions I know.

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1741 NM - 3 M.R. HANCOCK: But, Mr. Speaker, the youth of this Province today are faced with some of the - I guess the head­ ache is more on the parents than it is on the youth because there are more things now that can get a yoUng person in trouble than ever before and wh~t has this government, or we as responsible citizens of the Province done about it? Very little, Mr. Speaker. We see a Youth Advisory Council being set up now and 4 8 '19

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1742 EL - 1 MR. HANCOCK: we have a Department of Culture, Recreation and Youth, and the Environment, Mr. Speaker, and we have one minister . I feel, Mr. Speaker , thateither one of those could be a separate department. I am sure Recreation could be a separate department. The need is definitely there. Youth could be another one. Culture could go in with theEnvironment,.or whatever, because it is not really that important. But I think with Recreation and Youth, there is definitely a need for two different departments.

If we were serious about this bill, I think we would be seriously considering setting up a department for the youth and I feel very strongly about that, Mr. Speaker. And we go on and we look through the bill. 'The purpose of the Act is to establish an advisory council for the Province to encourage,promote,establish, de­ velop, co-ordinate and implement programmes that provide a forum for youth expression on all matters relating to the partic­ ipation of youth in society~ Well, Mr.

Speaker, I do not know if the government is going to take this bill seriously or not, because I am notconvinced that the recommendations made by the youth will be taken seriously by the minister. I am not so sure that they will. We saw this past weeken6 a youth parl­ iament of Newfoundland and Labrador put a motion and they re­ jected Grade XII, the implementation of Grade XII into their - I might read it, if I may, Mr. Speaker, and I have the quotes here from the paper, from The Evening Telegram. "Members de­ feated a resolution whichcalled for the introduction of Grade XII into the Province's high school.

They suggested Grade X and Xi should be operating properly and properly financed be­ fore Grade XII is introduced." 4820

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1742 EL - 2 MR. HANCOCK: Now, Mr. Speaker, we just saw the youth speak out, the youth of this Province, the people who are concerned and the people who will be affected by Grade XIIbeing brought in, not us, Mr. Speaker, because we have gotten what education we are going to get, most of us. And few of us will go on and further advance ourselves in the future. But Grade XII will not affect us in that regard but it will affect the young people in this Province. And they have come out clearly and denounced government's intention of bringing in Grade XII.

So I am wondering if, when the Youth Advisory Council is set up_, they will object to Grade XII being implemented in the school systemand will the minister or will government take their recommendations seriously? They feel it is a serious problem. They should up­ grade Grade X and Grade XI before they implement Grade XII. And we go onthrough the bill, Mr. Speaker. We have the, 'The council shall consist of twelve members, nine of whom shall be elected on a regional basis.' And I have no objections to that. And then we go on to

Section B, under paragraph S,'Three of whom shall be appointed by the Lieutenant Governor in· Council'. And that is where we run into the problem, Mr. Speaker. If we can elect nine regionalmembers on that council board, there is no reason in the world why we cannot elect twelve, Mr. Speaker. You could have twelve regional meetings around this Province.

I have spoken to some of the youth and I have said, 'How do you feel about the government appoint­ ing three members to that council?' And they have sa·id, 'well, if we are allowed to elect nine, why cannot we elect twelve and then elect the executive, or president or vice-president or what­ ever in annual meetings?' Youcan set up regional meetings around this Province.and elect nine officers and I say,if 4821

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1743 DW - 1 MR. D. HANCOCK: you can ~o it for nine you can do it for twelve. It gives the Tories · a chance to appoint Tories. And if the Liberals were over there, I am not saying '"e would do any differently, Mr. Speaker. What I am saying is that the Youth Council does not want anybody appointed to that board, Mr. Sl)eaker. It is a political decisiof' that will - with three political appoint- ments on that board, Mr. Sneaker, they can influence the other nine members to a degree that it will be Tory Youth Council we will have set up in this Province and I object to it.

And for that reason alone,I do not know but I would not vote against the bill, Mr. Speaker! I take this bill very seriously _because,as I said when I started,it is very important. It is something which should be in place. It should have its own department. But I do not agree with government appointing three members to this council. It is completely out of the intent of the bill in the first place. And I have spoken to several young people around this Province who do not want to have nothing to do with any appointments on this Youth Advisory Council.

They want nine,if they are going to have nine members,or twelve members - and I do not know if they are elected now or not, the nine members and the three that are a~?ointed by the Lieutenant­ Governor-in- Council, but they do not want to hear tell of it. It gives the government a golden opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to elect a Tory youth executive around this Province. It can be set up in such a manner that it will be a Tory Youth Council that we will be setting up. And I think it should be an independent group outside, no affiliation with any party whatsoever, Mr. Speaker.

There should be no political appointments to this Council, Mr. Speaker. 4822 .. ,,

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1743 DW - 2 MR. D. HANCOCK: It is too important a bill,

an act or a council to have political appointments to. And I think that government should amend that clause there and elect the full twelve members to that council on a regional basis, Mr. Speaker. I feel very strongly that that should be done. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. D. HANCOCK: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think as poli- ticians and as adults we do not listen to our youth enough. They are the backbone c= this Province, they are going to be our future leaders. And there is a serious problem in the school system this year, and has been for the last couple of years,with marijuana and LSD.

Everything gets into the school system Mr. Speaker, I have spoken to parents here in St. John's• 'T'hP.ir children have told me that they have been approached, only twelve and thirteen year olds,to try marijuana and to try - what is the other one? - hashish. Twelve years old, Mr. Speaker! And probably the Youth Council could do something about this if it was set up in the proper manner, Mr. Speaker. They could be patrolling schools, almost similar to what a CID officer does. Nobody knows he is there but he is there.

It is a very serious oroblem when we have twelve and thirteen year olds in this Province getting hooked on drugs while the Department of Justice and the RCMP and whatever other departments, are doing very little or nothing about it, Mr. Speaker. It is a very serious problem. Mr. Speaker, what money do we see? We have three departments, we have the Department of Recreation, Culture and Youth - well it could be four - and the Environment - AN HON. MEMBER: Wildlife. MR. D. HANCOCK: And wi.l dlife. And what do we see in the Budget? Less than $28 million, Mr. Speaker, to look after four departments.

It is nowhere near -·- it is a slap 4823

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1743 ow - 3 MR. D. HANCOCK: in the face, Mr. Speaker, for the Minister of Culture, Recreation and "Youth and the Environ­ ment (Mr. Andrews) to try and operate his department on $28 million. If they did away with Grade XII, Mr. Speaker, and listened to the youth of this Province,they could have an extra $30 million or $35 million because that is what it is _going to take to implement Grade XII in the school syste .ms in this Province. So the minister could have his salary doubled if he listened to the youth, Mr . Speaker. The Youth Parliament rejected, Mr . Speaker, Grade XII and I do not know but the Youth Advisory Council,when this bill 48 24

May 22~ 1981 Tape No. 1744 SD - 1 MR. HANCOCK: comes into effect will not do the same thing, Mr. Speaker. There is nowhere near enough money in this budget to operate- that should be in the bill, that is needed to. run a Youth Council in this Province, Mr. Speaker, and here we have four or five departments with less than $30,000 to operate on. Mr. Speaker, we could go on and we could speak about, I guess, the youth of this Province all day but there are other members on this side, I am sure, who have some opinions on it. But I cannot over-emphasize enough; Mr.

Speaker, that we do not put.enough emphasis on the young people of this Province, we do not pay enough attention to what they say. · I hope and I pray that the minister will listen seriously to this Youth Council when it is set up. And I hope, Mr. Speaker, the minister will take my advice and appoint twelve members to this council - MR. STIRLING: Not appoint, elect. MR. HANCOCK: Oh they have to be elected on a regional basis. If they can elect nine, Mr. Speaker, on a regional basis,they can elect twelve. It is only calling open meetings, Mr.

Speaker, any youth under twenty-one years of age and over fourteen can attend and be elected to this council and thev can elect - I am sure and I have enough confidenc~ in the young people of this Province, Mr. Speaker, that they can choose from the twelve members that they have to elect their own President, Vice-President, Secretary-Treasurer or whatever it takes. I do not think that government has to get involved and appoint whether they be Tories, NDP or Liberal to this council, Mr. Speaker. I think th.e young people of this Province have sense enough to choose their own leaders and run their own affairs, Mr.

Speaker, they do not need any critical interference from government whatsoever and I would urge government, Mr. Speaker, to forget about appointing three people to this council. It is an insult to the young people, Mr. Speaker, to say we do not know wh.o we 4825 .....

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1739 SD - 2 MR. HANCOCK: want as President or Vice-President or whatever. ~hey have got sense enough to do it themselves, a person nineteen or twenty years of age. And I may add, Mr. Speaker, we are doing away with the youth ag~in because it says right here, 'The government will appoint three people who are older than twenty-one years · of age~ And, Mr. Speaker, we are getting into adults again, we are getting away from the youth. A young person is considered to be twenty-one or under, Mr. Speaker, I consider a young person to be under twenty-one.

The government has to appoint three people to this board who are over twenty-one years of age, M~. Speaker. MR. WARREN: They could be seventy. MR. HANCOCK: Yes, they could -be retired citizens of this Province. And the youth respect their elders, Mr. Speaker, but they also take advice from them and they want to give advice to their elders. We are living in a different generation now than when you and I or our parents grew up, Mr. Speaker~ So we could have people on that board seventy or eighty years of age dictating to the young people of this Province and that is not good enough, Mr. Speaker.

We should elect twelve members to that board on a regional basis under twenty-one years of age. If it is going to be a youth bill, then let it be such, do not let us have senior citizens on the board, Mr. Speaker. We are looking for advice and guidance on the needs and the wants of the young people of this Province,so why should we go and appoint people who are mature people 0 4626

May- 22, 1981 Tape 1745 EC - 1 MR. HANCOCK: They could be up in their 50s, 60s, 70s, or 80s on this Youth Council, Mr. Speaker. Let us keep it for the young people of this Province. And I would urge the government to elect twelve people on a regional basis and the whole twelve be under twenty-one years of age. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It has been some time since I read this particular bill and I was just going through it to try to find some

section which dealt with the last point that was raised by my friend and colleague from St. Mary's -The Capes (Mr. Hancock). The particular section, 5 (l)Subsection (b), does say that 'the Lieutenant-Governor in Council, on the recommendation of the nine members elected under Paragraph (a) , so long as at the time of the appointment they are older than twenty-one years.' Certainly goodness, Mr. Speaker, there must be some - I mean, this is an Advisory Youth Council. And as I understand the operation of the present Commission, these three are indeed at the ~ moment, older individuals.

For example, I believe that Dr. Doug Eaton, of. Memorial University, Vice-President of Student Affairs, is one of the appointed members of this Commission. I assume, Mr. Speaker, that the argument for / this is to give the Council some maturity,some ·mature viewpoints within the Council. However, it is something that I think the minister responsible here should reconsider. They really should reconsider this particular provision. I can understand the reasoning behind it. Because I believe that of the three members who are appointed, one is Dr. Doug Eaton, who is a man certainly in his SUs anyway.

And they are more or less appointed - AN HON. MEMBER: Is that true, what he is saying? 4827 r:

May 22, 1981 Tape 1745 EC - 2 MR. THOMS: Yes. I am quite sure that the understanding behind this is that these three people would be advisors to the Council, in which case , Mr. Speaker, I suggest that we consider changing the concept of this so that there can be something like an Advisory Board composed of people who are, you know, beyond tlo/en ty- one years of age, but that it be an Advisory Board that is appointed by the Council itself, not appointed by the goverruuent. This is the objection that I see in it. 4828

May 22, 1981 Tape No. 1746 NM - 1 AN HON . MEMBER: The Advisory Council should have been an advisory board. MR. THOMS: Yes. Yes. Okay. You know a rose by any other name. Call it what you like. ·okay? MR. STIRLING: board? MR. THOMS: Why do they need any kind of advisory Well,maybe they do not. Maybe this decision should be left UP to the council themselves. MR. HANCOCK: (Inaudible) to the twelve council members. MR. THOMS: Because,you know,what you are doing here. You realize what we are doing and I would have to - I am not prepared to stand up here, Mr.

Speaker, and say that I am going to support this particular piece of legislation because you have to realize what you are doing and maybe the minister,when this was drafted,did not realize what he was doing. But what you are saying to the Youth Council that you are setting up here is that, "We want you to have a say. We want you to make recommendations to the minister. we want you to make recommendations to the government of this Province." But, Mr. Speaker, the government is saying to the youth of this Province, "We do not trust you to carry out this responsiblity. We do not trust you. Therefore," Mr.

Speaker, the government is saying · to the youth, "you really have no alternative. You have your nine member . council but we are going to appoint three members to the board with the same status as the other nine. Okay? But," this is the catch, "there is no ag