Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 29A (31st Legislature, 4th Session)

31-4-29a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Time: 2: 30 p.m . LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOB A Tuesday , 1 April, 1980 OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAK ER , Hon . Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Russe ll): Presenting Petitions ••• READIN G AND RECEIVIN G PETI TIONS MR . SPEAK ER : The Honourable Member for Cresc entwood . MR . CLERK , Jack Reeves : The Petition of J. M. Westaway et al , Praying for the passin g of

An Act to incorporate the Canadian Institute of Management in Manitoba. MR . SPEAK ER : Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees • • • Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports • • • NOTICES OF MOTION MR . SPEAKER : The Honou rable Minister of Labour and Manpowe r. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson) : Mr . Speaker , I would like to take this opportunity to correct two statements in the Hansard on Wedne sday , 12 March 1980 on Page 799 .

Paragraph 4 reads that I said "They talk about placement and coun se lling, and the wheat program ••• 11 It is not the "wheat" program , it's "LEAP" - I have no association with wheat programs . In the next sentence, I must have had a pretty sticky tongue that day , the next is "and the outreach programs and the nuclear programs ." It is not "nuclear ", it is "New Caree rs ". Thank you Mr. Speaker. MR .

SPEAK ER : No tices of Motion ••• Introduction of Bills ••• Before we proceed with Question Per iod , I would like to draw all honourable members ' atten tion to the gallery on my left where we have the 2nd and 5th Group from Boy Scouts from Transcona under the direction of Mr . and Mrs . Jackson . This scout group comes from the constituency of the Honourable Member for Transcona . We also have a Glenboro Pathfinder Unit, that's a branch of the Girl Guides of that town, under the direction of Mrs . Georgina Greenlay and Mrs . Fiona Ham.

This group is from the constituency of the Honoura ble Minister of Natural Resour ces . On behalf of all the Honourable Members we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEAK ER : The Honou rable Member of the Opposition. MR . HOWARD PAW LEY (Selkirk ): Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Minister respo nsible for Community Serv ices. The statement has been made just recently by the Provincial Correc tions Commissioner to the effect that government is keeping its fingers crossed in respect to the lack of compliance with the fire code re quirements in the Dauphin Minimum Security Prison.

Can the Minister , in fact, confirm to the House that that particular institution does not meet Provincial Fire Regulation Standard s? MR . SPEAK ER : The Honourable Minister of Community Services and Correc tions. HONOUR ABLE GEORGE MINAKER (St. James) : Mr . Speak er , my understanding is that there is some necess ary work required with regard to fire detection and smoke detection work and it would be best raised to the Minister of Government Services - 1901 -

Tuesday , 1 April, 1980 with regard to the scheduling of same . I know, I believe that there are portable smoke detectors at the facility at the present time , but the long-ter m fire pro tection program is presently in the planning stages. MR . PAW LEY : Mr . Speaker, a supplementary to the Minister. Can the Min ister advise when he became aware that certain upgrading was requir ed in order to meet the Fire Regulation requi rements? MR . MINAKER : Mr.

Speaker, I would suggest that that question be directed to the Minister of Government Services, as I was not responsible for the depart ment at the time I believe that the overall survey of our different institutions was taken by the Fire Commissioner 's Office. MR . PAW LEY: Mr . Speaker, I will redirect my quest ion to the Minister of Government Services that was respon sible for the department prior to the present Minister of Community Serv ices . Can the Minister advise when he became aware of the deficienc y pertaining to Fire Regulation Standards involving the Dauphin Minimum Security Prison? MR .

SPEAK ER : The Honourable Minister of Government Services. HONOUR ABLE HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside ): Mr . Speaker, I can indicate to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that among perhaps the highest prior ities of this gove rnment as of October 11, 1977 , subje ct to a tragic accident happening in Portage la Pr airie, this government undertook a total review of particularly those institutions which housed peo ple, either bedridden or otherwise .

We had within a very short order a substantial knowledge of the deficiency in the matter of build ings meeting Fire Code Regulations, and we have committed ourselves to the spend ing of some $5 million in each year that we have been in power in correcting them. The particular situation in Dauphin, Sir, we had extensive renov ations for that facility in place and in design stage ready when the staff and the community of Dauphin requested the department to have another look after examining those procedur es.

It had something to do with, in their mind at least, not conforming to the otherwise aesthetic beauty and value of the building. In consultation with the supervi sory staff at the Dauphin facility and the Department of Government Services, new designs are in progress and there will be some $30, OOO to $4 0, OOO spent during this summer construction year. MR . SPEAKER : The Honour able Leader of the Oppo sition. MR . PAWLEY : Mr.

Speaker, a further supp lementary to the Minister and his answer to the effect that staff, in fact, persuaded him and his government to set aside design work in order to minimize the fire danger in favour of better beauty of the building . Does this response then indicat e, Mr .

Speaker, further to the Minister, that for some period of time now, despite the knowledge from the Fire Commissioners office, received by the government across the way , that no action has been taken, while plans and designs have been developed to better improve the building, while the Chief Correc tions Commissioner has indicated publicly that we are just keeping our fingers crossed . In other words just praying and hoping . MR . ENNS : Mr.

Speaker, I must remind the Honoura ble Leader of the Opposi tion, that facility existed in its present state for eight long years during the period of the previous administration. But that isn 't really the point. The question is that I personally have been in the facility, I personally inspected the facility. It is as the Minister respons ible can indicate, a relatively low - what is the terminology - minimum security regulations prev ail.

There are no locked cells, no locked doors, in that se nse, no bars on the window, as the report indicates, and I am personally satisfied that the kind of situation that is attri buted to some of the staff and their comments is colourful , but not necessarily accurate. MR . SPEAK ER : The Honourab le Minister of Community Services and Correc tions. - 1902 -

Tuesday , 1 April, 1980 MR . MINAK ER : For further information to the House , Mr . Speaker, I can advise the house that the second floor of the jail is a dormitory and that the door to the main floor is unlocked . There is a window that is open with access to a ladder, that the correctional officers are on duty 24 hours a day so that the risk of a fire , we believe , is minimal under these conditions. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . PAWLEY : Mr. Speaker, a further question to the Minister.

In view of the fact that there has been continued delay , and the Minister has had responsi bility for two-and-a- half years of government to deal with this particular ques tion, can the Minister advise whether or not there are recommendations now before Cabinet in order to bring about the necessary renovations in order to ensure that the building meets the appropriate Fire Regulation requi reme nts? MR . SPEAK ER : The Honourable Minister of Government Serv ices. MR . ENNS : Mr .

Speaker, I don 't believe I have any particular responsi bility to the Leader of the Opposition to indicate to him what is, or what is not before Cabinet. How ever , Mr . Speaker , I can indicate to him - and I think my Estimates will be up very shortly - that there are dollars provided for in the Estimates of the Department of Government Services. MR . SPEAK ER : - The Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR . RUSSELL DOER N: Mr . Speaker, I would ask the Minister of Government Services whether all fire safety requir ements at the Portage Home for Retardates have been met at this point in time? MR .

SPEAK ER : The Honoura ble Minister of Government Services. MR . ENNS : Mr. Speaker, I'll take that quest ion as notice. Again, I would invite the member to pursue that point during the course of my Estimates. I can only indicate to him that there is an ongoing multi-hundred thousand dollar pro gram of renovations under way to meet the Fire Code recommendations in that facility. MR . DOERN : Mr . Speaker, I understand the Minister then to say that the program has not been completed, but is ongoing .

I would ask him whether he can confirm that rather than being a multi-hundred thousand , as he put it, that the entire cost, last repor ted , in the facility was of the order of $5 to $6 million, not some $5 0,000 which was thrown around in a rather careless fashion by the First Minister several years ago. MR . ENNS : Mr. Speaker, I would be happy to confirm again during the course of my Estimates that it will cost between $50 and $6 0 millions to bring to full upgraded standards that the present Fire Commissioners Code calls for. MR . SPEAK ER : The Honoura ble Member for Elmwood with a final supple mentary .

MR . DOERN: I would ask the Minister of Government Services if he would then draw to the attention of the First Minister this state of affairs , because it was the First Minister who made a number of cheap shots against our administration during the last election campaign, concerning problems of fire safety . And I wonder whether the Minister would draw to the attention of his leader that his government is in violation of as many , if not more , safety requi rements throughout the province, in provincial institutions . MR . ENNS : Mr.

Speaker, I am rather nonplussed that this particular member, the former Minister of Public Works, would ask that kind of a question and leave himself open to this kind of an answer. The truth of the matter is - and that's where the shots came from and they were deservedly so - we are doing our best to act on the recommendations of the Fire Commissioners Office, and it is cos ting us - 1903 -

Tuesday , 1 Apr il, 1980 to the tune of $5 million a year. They had the same recommendations and ignored them, and rather built monuments to themselves , devoted $5 million to garages that to this day still are not needed . They built garages for themselves and monuments to themselves rather than comply with the Fire Commissioners Code . We are doing it, Sir. MR . SPEAK ER : The Honoura ble Member for St. Bon iface. MR . LAURENT J. DESJ ARDINS : Mr . Speaker , my quest ion is to the Minister of Commun i ty Services.

Could the Minister give us the inmate population of Head ing ley , present population, and also the population as it stood in 1978? MR . SPEAK ER : The Honourable Minister of Commun ity Serv ices. MR . MINAKER : Mr . Speaker , I will take that quest ion as notice. MR . DESJAR DINS : I thank the Minister, and I wonder if he could also take as notice the following : What is the program staff at the institution now, and what was it in the same period of 1978? MR . MINAK ER : Mr. Speak er , I will take that as notice, and I would gladly discuss all of these items in deta i l when we deal with our Estimates. MR .

SPEAK ER : The Honoura ble Member for Inkster . MR . SIDNEY GREEN: Mr . Speaker , I would like to direct a quest ion to the Honourable Minister of Finance, to whom Man itoba Hydro report s. Would the Min ister be able to conf irm or not conf irm that a recommendation was made by Mr .

John Arnason , one of the manager ial personn el , or people acting on his behalf, to the Man itoba Hydro Board , some time ago , prior to the appointment of the new Executi ve Direc tor, to accept the tender and proposal of a firm containing the name McLaren with respect to the Burntwood Division , Burntwood Env ironmental Studies, and that the Board has not accepted that propos al . MR . SPEAK ER : The Honoura ble Minister of Finance. THE HONOURABLE DONALD W. CRAIK (Rie l): Mr .

Speak er , the Member for Inkster can address that to the Cha irman of the Hydro Board when it appears before the Publi c Utilities Committee. Mr . Speaker , that is not a normal quest ion for the Crown Corpor ations to be asked for thei r internal procedures for the Leg islature . The member knows very well that these types of quest ions are standard fare for the Publi c Utilit ies Committee. MR . GREEN : Mr. Speak er, I am only in keeping with the tradition that has been set by the honour able members in eight years of opp os ition.

And I will ask the member the quest ion, is it a fact that after the appo intment of the new Executive Director who, contrary to what we were advised , was then an unemployed manager ial pers on, that the Board was not able to accept the propos al , and was told to cons ider another proposal by another firm , wh i ch was not one of those whose tenders were cons idered by the management staff in prepari ng proposals? MR . CRAIK : We ll, Mr . Speaker , I think the member for Inkster is tread ing on grounds here that he is sugge sting were in itiated by the present government in opposi tion.

The member knows very well that those kind of quest ions can be addressed to the utility at its appearance before the committee . Mr. Speaker , the quest ions yester day were dealt with. The quest ions yest erday were whether or not the Utility had been directed by the Minister , or whether the Board had been directed by the Minister to take a certai n course of action, whether the Board had done such and such. Mr. Speak er, the information I have is that the Board has given cons iderat ion to the proposals or tenders , Mr . Speaker , for this examina tion .

The Board in due course , like any board of any utility, will deal with that proposal before it. - 1904 -

Tuesday , 1 April, 1980 MR . GREEN: Yes , Mr . Speaker , can the Minister confirm that following the appointment of the new Executive Director - who was unemployed at the time of his appointment, not an employee of Brascan , Mr . Speaker - could the Minister confirm that in some process the Board started to re-examine a new proposal , one that was submitted by a corporation or a group involving UN IES , or a group in which Gordon Spafford played a major part , and which proposal was not consider ed by the manage ment group which made recommendations to Hydro? MR . CRAI K: Wel l, Mr.

Spea ke r, I don 't think I can ease the member 's para noia, but I can advise you and the House if that were the case , it is the first time I have heard about it. I suggest that the member direct his que stions and his interrogations and his snide remarks about employment or otherwise , of the member who is the CEO of the corporation. We ll, Mr . Speaker , here we go . --( Interje ction)- - I think that first of all, to the best of my knowledge , the burden of the comments that have been made by the Member for Inkster have no basis in fact.

He is on a wild goose chase , and I suspect he is on a predetermined course of action to do whatever he can do to try and assuage his own conscience with regard to his past actions. MR . SPEAKE R: Order please . The Honoura ble Member for St. Boniface on a point of order. MR . DESJARD INS : Mr . Speak er, you have informed us that we can ask ques tions , but that Ministers are at liberty to answer or not. Do they have the right to refuse to answer and then lecture somebo dy , is that what we find in Beauchesne? MR . SPEAKER : Order please .

I find it very difficult for any member in this Chamber to give instructions to any Minister on how he should answer any questions. The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR . DESJARD INS : Mr . Speaker , either you misunderstood or chose to under stand the statement . I am accepting that the Minister does not have to answer ; I am simply asking , is it his right then to refuse to answer , and then keep the floor for five minutes lecturing one of the members that asks a question? MR . SPEAK ER : The Honoura ble Member for Inkster . MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker , to the same Minister and , Mr.

Speaker , in keeping with the recommendations of his ideal, Mr. Justice Tritschler , will the Minister ensure that this board which he says is under the direction of the Cabinet, and he has always said so , will the Board be in keeping with the rec ommendations of Mr.

Justice Tritschler , be advised that all of the officials who are making recommen dation did not recommend UNI ES , but recommended a McLaren firm in Winnipeg , and that that Board should be de aling with the recommendations on the basis of the management rec ommendation to them, and should be advised as to the opinions of every engineer who had an idea as to who should be recommended , apparently as recommended by Mr . Justice Tritschler , whom the Minister thinks should be followed . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR . CRA IK: Mr .

Speaker , I think that the member 's question is entirely out of or de r, and I suggest it is, Mr . Speaker, because he has been allowed to estab lish the premise that certain parties were involved . Mr . Speaker , if that is the case , those questions can be placed to the Utility when they appear before the Public Utilities Committee . Mr . Speaker , I have answered the question as far as I can . The accusations that he started to make beginning yester day , or whenever it was , and resumed today ; if they are the case , they are entirely unknown to me .

And the basic que stion is whether the Minister directed or instructed the Utility to take a certain course of action. Mr . Speaker , I can answer that. But as far as the internal operations of the Utility are concerned , if the member is sugge st ing that the Minister reporting for that Utility now should be down into the net work of the Utility making those kinds of decisions , I tell you he is in the wrong - 1905 -

Tuesday , 1 April, 1980 prem ise , but I now know why the former government had problems with their utilities. MR SPEAK ER : The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR . J. WALLY McKEN ZIE : Mr . Speaker , I have a question for the Minister of Community Services. Regarding the dispute between the federal Department of Indian Affairs and some 40 of the Indian bands in the province, I wonder if the Minister could advise of effec ts this will have on his dep artment, or the opera tions of the gove rnment. MR . SPEAK ER : The Honou rable Minister of Community Services . MR . MI NAKER : Mr .

Spea ker, in reply to the Honou rable Member for Roblin for the House information, the responsibility of Treaty Indians on reserves is that of the federal gove rnment. However , I would like to advise the House that our dep artment has been in contact with the federal department advising that we would help them out in any way we can in an emergency assistance , either in food vouchers or whatever would be req uired , providing that we had a guarantee that there would be re imbursement for this type of serv ice. MR . SPEAK ER : The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MRS. JUNE WESTBURY : Thank you , Mr. Speaker.

My question is addressed to the Honourable Minister of Government Serv ices . I wonder if he 's in a position to answer in whole or in part my Order for Return on the contents of the former rural water services warehouse of March 10. MR . SPEAKER : The Honoura ble Minister of Government Services . MR . ENNS : Mr. Speak er , that Order is being prepared and I believe it will be available to the honour able member and the House within a matter of days. MRS . WESTBURY : Thank you , Mr . Speaker.

As a supp lementary then, I wonder if the Minister would care to comment on the fact that the Honoura ble Member for Roblin, in a report to his constituents, has named the Minister as answering part of the question by stating that Mr . Masniuk 's nephew was the highest of 16 bidders and there was no evidence of wrongdoing . And if, in fact, this is part of the Honourable Member for Roblin' s report to his constituents, would the Minister state that it is an untrue report ? MR . ENNS : Mr.

Speak er , I can state uneq uivocally that if it comes from the lips of the Honourable Member for Roblin, it is undoubtedly true . The Member for Roblin is not known to bandy around with falsehoods. Mr. Speaker , to the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge , the information contained is qu ite corre ct. But that, as she is well aware , is only one very small part of th� information that she req uested . She asked for a total inventory of the opera tions at that time it ceased oper ating.

She asked for des cription, price lot s, the total information of all tenders , and we sent out tenders to some 80 in terested companies , receiving back some 16 replies , I believe . And she should learn , Sir , that when an Order for Return is made with such detail, that it takes the department a considerable amount of time to properly furnish all that information. MRS . WESTBURY : Thank you , Mr. Speaker . I absolutely agree , and I am impressed by the fact that I can expect the answer to this Order within a we ek. I'm wondering however , Mr .

Speak er, if the Honoura ble Minister of Government Ser vices can explain the fact that he is named by his name , or at least by a Minister named Harry Enns , and explain, as explaining to me , partial re plies to the Order which have not been given to this House , and how it would be that the Honourable Member for Roblin would be in possession of this information before the House is. - 1906 -

Tuesday , 1 April, 1980 MR . ENNS: Mr. Speaker , I should refer to Hansard . But I can recall that in accepting the Order for Return , I indicated right at that time - I had that much confidence in the procedures being carried out in the department - that the highest bidder in this instance would undoubtedly receive the award . And I sup pose in that sense it's quite tr ue. I made the statement in this House at the time she raised the question, that Mr . Masniuk was the highest bidder and was awarded the particular goods in question. MRS . WESTBURY: A point of order , Mr . Speaker. Mr .

Speake r, before I ask my question today , I took the time to send a copy of the Hansard page to the Minister of Government Services so that in fact he would not fall into the trap that he has just entered . I would like to quote from Hansard , Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAK ER: Order. Order please . Has the member a point of order? You 're on a point of order? Okay , proceed with your point of order . MRS . WESTBURY: My point of order , Mr . Speaker , is that the Minister has misled the House , and if I may , I would like to quote from Hansard .

At the end of my read ing of the Order you called , Sir , on the Minister of Government Services, who stated: "Mr . Speaker , I have no difficulty in accepting this Order for Return . I should indicate to you , Mr . Speak er , as the member is fully aware , the disposal of Crown assets is always done by tender and whether or not the question of the familial relationship of a particular firm is involved , is not a subject matter that the department is concerned with. However , we will attempt to answer the questions asked ." Mr. Speaker , that was the entire answer. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for St.

Johns . MR . SAUL CHERNI ACK : Mr . Spea ker , I am under the impression that the Member for Fort Rouge had a question to ask and was waiting for your ruling on the point of order , and if so I would grant her precedence over me . No , she's accepted that, Mr . Speaker. Mr .

Speaker , I'd like to ask the Minister of Finance if he could clarify for the House and elaborate on the statements which he made to the Winnipeg Free Press today , it would appear , or yest erday , deal ing with the problem he has in re lation to payment of Civil Service salaries, both in Winnipeg and outside of Winnipeg , and how he foresees the payment , depending on when his Bill No . 22 passes final read ing and it receives Assent . MR . SPEAK ER: The Honoura ble Minister of Finance. MR . CRAI K: The usual way , Mr . Speak er, by cheque. MR . CHERN IACK: Mr .

Speaker , I appreciate the straighforward answer given without any of his usual speeches and abuse . May I then ask him, Mr . Speaker, whether there is no problem involved regar dless of when the Bill passes and Assent is given in regard to payment in the usual way by cheque on the normal payment date which I understand is Thursday . How is he going to handle that? MR . CRAI K: Mr. Speaker , the problem which has arisen - which I'm sure the member is probably aware of but wishes to have some airing of or discussion of - is the problem that payday falls on Good Friday .

And in order to pay before Fri day , bef ore the weekend , the normal date of pay is Thursday of this coming week , of this week , the day after tomorrow. That's fine , Mr . Speaker , for the sum 8,000 out of 13 ,000 who are within the distance of this building where they can receive their cheques on the Thursday . There are some 5,0 00 civil servant s, public employees , payroll recipients who receive them either by mail or through office distribution from a location that is outside of Winnipeg . Mr .

Speak er, the intent is to mail those cheques to those people , and this is a result of a discussion with the Leader of the Opposition this morning , at the - 1907 -

Tuesd ay , 1 April, 1980 Public Accounts Committee meeting in a short aside where he gave me his und er taking that as far as the opp osition was concerned, Bill 22 would not be hel d up beyond Thursd ay of this week. I accept that und ertaking from the Lea der of the Opp osition. As a result the cheq ues are in the mail this afternoon to those people . An d, Mr . Speaker , that is the entire background. MR . CHER NIACK : Ye s, Mr . Speaker.

Then in view of the fact that the Min ister ha d to call on and receive the co-operation of the opposition to deal with a problem which was created by the fact that whoever plans the business of govern ment are only allowed three days to debate Interim Supply, can the Minister assure us that in the future he will see to it - having one more session to go , I believe - that there will be ample opportunity given to debate his bills in sufficient time without having a dead line imposed by the failure of the gove rnment to plan its work so as to complete its work in time. It was he who knew how to handle it. MR .

CRAI K: Mr. Speaker , the introduction of the Interim Supply Bill was the usual timing that is normal for any year , the Bill was introduced , the member says three days, I think this is the fifth day, the discussion , Mr . Speaker , we went into committee last We dnes day on this topic, the member who just delivere d himself of the position of also calling the next election, he still doesn 't seem to remember that he is on the other side of the House , Mr .

Speaker , was the first to avail himself of the opportunity to speak in the Committee of Supply for 30 minutes-p lus , on last We dnesd ay , did so again yester day for 30 minutes-plus again, Mr . Speaker , has spoken longer and taken up more time than any member in this House and he has the gall and au dacity to stand up now and pretend that it is some problem that doesn 't emanate right from his own seat. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Transcona . MR . WI LSON PARASI UK: Mr .

Spea ker, my question is directed to the Minister responsible for transportation, in view of the fact that both the CPR and CNR mainline railway lines pass through my constituency of Transcona , can the Minister indicate whether there are any bypass routes for railways hauling volatile or hazard ous goo ds around Transcona and around Winnipeg? MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Trans portation. HON. DON ORCHARD ( Pembina) : Mr .

Speaker , I am not aware of the operations of the two rail lines and how they can reroute shipments of hazard ous chemicals through their respective yard s within the city limits of Winnipeg , however , I will und ertake to query the two railroads in question and provi d e that information to the Member for Transcona . MR . PARASI UK : Yes , Mr .

Speak er, I would like to ask the Minister if he is going to contact the CPR and CNR if indeed they would explore the possibility of constructing a bypass route around Winnipeg , because no bypass route at present exists, and I would urge the government to take this up with railway lines because at· present there is only one way in which hazard ous goo ds can be taken through Manitoba, namely through Winnipeg and my constituency of Transcona , and I would ask the Minister if he would take this up with the rai lway lines and with the Minister of Transportation fe der ally . MR . ORCHARD: Well , Mr.

Speaker , that certainly can be an und ertaking that I will end eavour to do with the railroa d s but as we are all aware the CNR is quite dispose d with double tracking their mainline and I am not certain as to whether they have sufficient fund s left over to build the bypass the Member for Transcona is so desirous of. However , I will end eavour to und ertake those discussions with those two railroad s, Mr . Speaker. MR .

PARASIUK: Yes, in view of the tragedy in Mississauga and the spill at McGrego r, I would ask if the Minister in fact raise d this matter with the fed eral Minister of Transportation when he met with him last week , and furthermore , I wonder if he suggeste d to him that if the CPR railway yard s were moved out of - 1908 -

Tuesd ay , 1 April, 198 0 Winnipeg that would free up rail and ties that could be used by the federa l Liber al Government to double track the railway line west to the West Coast and there fore two very sincere federal Liberal commitments could be met. MR . ORCHA RD: Well, Mr .

Speaker, in the very limited amount of time that I spent with the federal Transportation Minister last week, I did not spec i fically undertake to discuss the relocation of the CPR yards in Winnipeg, since I felt that our very capable and energetic federal minister in this city has cer tainly bent the Ministry of Transportation in Ottawa as to the very necessary and beneficial re sults of moving that CPR mainline and it did not become part and parcel of some of the pressin g issues that I did raise with the federal minister at the time of that meeting last week I did however , Mr .

Speaker, undertake to mention to him a number of other items and certainly double tracking at the CNR was one of those . MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR . JAY COWAN: Mr . Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education. In light of the recent announcement in Ontario that it has been found to be neces sary to close a school due to asbestos contamination, can the Minister take this opportunity to update us as to the curren t status of his department 's efforts to deal with the asbestos hazards that Manitoba school children and school staff may face? MR .

SPEAK ER : The Honourable Minister of Education. HON . KE ITH A. COSENS (Gimli): Mr . Speaker, I appreciate that question and I can report to the member that the survey of Manitoban schools has been com pleted, as far as asbestos is concerned , where we have made a positive identifica tion of a harmful substance, that substance has been removed or neutralized . MR . COWAN : Perhaps then, Mr .

Speaker, the Minister can indicate how many positive identifications have been made and if all the schools have , in fact, been tested, and what action spec ifically has been taken to neutralize this very potent carcinogen? MR . COSENS : Mr. Speaker, I would be quite prepared to go into all the details of that particular program in my Estimates , because I think it is a very important sub ject, and I have a rather lengthy report that I will be quite pre pared to provide at that time. MR . COWAN : Thank you , Mr. Speaker . My supple mentary is to the Minister of Labour on the same subj ect.

On October 23, 1979 I wrote to the Minister of Educa tion informing him that I had been advised of possible asbestos contamination at the Leaf Rapids Town Centre . He informed me that he would pass that corr espond ence on to the Minister. My question to the Minister is then, and I have asked this question during the estimates procedure and not received an answer - my question to the Minister is if he can now indicate what the results of his in vestigation have been in regard to this complaint that there may well be asbestos contamination at the Leaf Rap ids Town Centre . MR .

SPEAKER : The Honoura ble Minister of Labour. MR . MacMASTER : I'll get that answer provided , Mr . Speaker . In fairness to the Member for Churchill, I recall the question but I do not have the answer at the moment. MR . SPEAKE R: The Honoura ble Member for St. George . MR . BILLI E URUSK I: Thank you , Mr. Speaker . I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture and ask him whether he has directed his department to conduct studies into the social and economic effec ts of the changing of the Crow Rate might be on farmers and rural communities in the province of Manitoba. - 1909 -

Tuesday , 1 April, 1980 MR . SPEAK ER : The Honoura ble Minister of Agriculture . HON . JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Yes, Mr . Speaker . Last year we had a study done by the University of Manitoba which I am waiting to receive, we thought it wou l d be available by Fall but they still haven 't provided us with it. When that report is av ailable then I will report to the Member for St. George on that parti cular issue . MR . URUSKI : Thank you Mr. Speaker .

I would appreciate the Minister advis ing my se lf and the House who is conducting the study that he says the Univer sity of Manitoba is doing and who is paying for the study? Is the department involved in this? MR . DOW NEY : Ye s, Mr . Speaker, the department is paying for it and I be lieve it is in the neighbourhood of $30,000 and Ed Tyr chniewicz is the economist who is doing the main work on the study . MR. URUS KI : Yes . Can the Minister confirm that if the Crow rate payments are --( Interje ction )- - Mr . Speaker, would the members like to ask the question of me?

I'm the member that's asking the question, Sir . Cou l d the Minister indicate that if compensatory rates are paid, that it is like l y that approximatel y 40 percent of rural elevators will be closed in rura l Manitoba? MR . DOWNE Y: We ll, Mr. Speaker, the member is making an assumption that something may happen if, in fact, the compensatory rates were paid to the rail road s. Mr .

Speaker , I just would like to say that the majority of farm organiza tions and agricultural peo ple emanating from the Hall Commission Rep ort, and many other commissions that were he l d to do with rail transportation and paying of compensatory rates, all agreed that the railroads shou ld receive compensation for the work they 're doing. As far as the additional comment that he makes about the remova l of elevators from rural Manitoba, I wouldn 't be prepared to comment at this particular time because it is pure l y an assumption on his behalf. MR . SPEAKER : Order please .

The hour for question period having expired , we 'll proceed with Orders of the Day . ORDERS OF THE DAY MR . SPEAKER : The Honoura ble Government House Leader. HON . GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne ): Mr. Speaker, could I just confirm the announcement we made last week that the House will not sit tomorrow. That it has been agreed that on Thursday the House will meet at 10 :0 0 to 12: 30 and 2: 30 to 5: 3 0 and not in the evening and that the House will as usua l sit on Easter Monday . Mr . Speaker, wou l d you call Bill No . 22 .

ADJOURNED DEBATE ON SECOND READIN G BILL NO . 22 - THE IN TERIM APPROPRIATION ACT, 1980 MR . SPEAKER : Bill No . 22 , standing in the name of the Honourable Member for St. Joh ns . The honour able member has eight minutes . MR . CHERNIACK : Thank you, Mr. Speak er . Mr . Speaker, last night I woke and I wasn 't sure what woke me but I was pretty sure that I knew what kep t me awake . I was thinking about these eight minutes you just granted to me and thinking how I would want to use them. Mr.

Speaker, I do believe that governments on the Western Hemisphere are taking very casua lly problems that are occurring right across the board and which I think have very important implications. I think that governments want to give the impression that every thing is okay ; I'm all right, Jack ; and I take that from - 1910 -

Tuesday , 1 April, 1980 statements that have been made during the election campaign, the federal election campaign, by all par ties, espec ially the Conserva tives and Liberals and by govern ments such as this governm ent, which seems to take quite casually the fact that it is reversin g a trend , is bringing in r.eactionary taxation, is involving people more and more in the problems of managing their livelihood and which is, I be lieve, showing not enough concern for the future of our Manitoba residents.

And I say that in the full knowledge that the problems cannot be dealt with quickly nor settled by a province alone . But, Mr . Speaker, I have read and given speeches written by economists; I have listened to speeches written by economists; I don 't pretend to be an economist but I am worried about certain factors that are evidencing themselves. Now I go right back, Mr . Speaker, to what is taking place in Iran where hos tages have been held for well over 100 days •• A MEMBER : 150 days today . MR .

CHERNIACK: And you know the Minister of Consumer Affairs is smiling and saying, "Is that our fault?" I am trying to give indications to the Minister of what should be of concern to him and I took care , today , not to speak a word yet of what should be done by the provincial governm ent. But our Minister's interes ted, let him listen . I feel that what is happening in Iran is an immorality that's taking place across the world which we cannot shrug off .

I think that what is taking place in Afghan istan, which is not unlike what happened in Vietnam - and now we 're talking about two different powers on two different sides involving themselves in the internal affairs of countries - is something we cannot shrug off . Mr. Speaker, I'm talking about watching last night the Minister from Saudi Arabia visiting Canada and according to the

interpretation of the media saying that either he threatened or he lectured Canadians about the accepting the world price for oil and telling us that we have to accept the world price as being "the" price. And I think of Alberta which is saying much the same thing and now we 're get ting closer to the cost of living and the Minister for Consumer Affairs has to be very much concerned about the cost of living and has to be concerned about the passing on to the consumer of many of the costs that are imposed on us from out side, and I'm afraid to some extent from inside.

That's why I suggest to the Minister, and all members, that it is an important factor that we must consider . I would suggest that the fluctuation that took place recently in the price of gold , in the price of sil ver , the mad dash that took place by people of ordinary means , not the Hunts of the world. but people of ord inary means , people who are pictured in our newspapers in Manitoba buying gold , buying silver, becoming in volved in this mad rush to make money on the basis of what is happening inter nationally of which they understand nothing.

And when I suggest that we look at the drop in the stock market in Canada, of all the stocks that one recognizes as being if not blue chip, substantial com panies and the fluctuation that takes place, I say it's a matter that should be of concern to all of us. I did not live - I lived through but I was not really aware of what happened in 1929 - and I was led to believe that with Unemployment Insurance and old age pensions and all the various welfare and security measures that have been brought in as a result of depression year s, that we will not face that kind of shock again. But I am not really sure , Mr .

Speaker, that we have a right to rely on what is taking place. And I criticized the government yester day for leaning back as true Conservative doctrinaires saying, "The marketplace will determine things" . The marke tplace has forced interest rates up dramatically and in a dangerous way .

There are foreclosures taking place ; there are bankruptcies taking place; there is the Canad ian quarrel with Alberta on oil pricing; there is the Canadian quarrel with many Quebecers on unity in Canada, and I would urge that we take it in hand and start dealing with it rather than say , it's not our burden , let the Feds deal with it. And I come back to my criticism of the Finance Minister saying: We will assist the gove rnment; we don 't know what to do . Well, we have made sugge stions from this side during this short deb ate. - 1911 -

Tuesd ay , 1 April, 1980 The Minister of Finance chose to misinterpret some of the suggestions ma de by the Member for Lac du Bonnet. And may I make a corre ction; I said yes terday that MP IC has some $30 million-plus in investments. I was wrong . It ha d on the last financial statement $8 8 million in investments an d $2 2 million in current cash -fl ow . There is money around that coul d be use d.

I would suggest we apply ourselves and we should apply ourselves to consumer cre dit transactions and we shou ld concern ourselves about limiting the use of consumer cred it and in that way limiting the expansionary aspec ts of life in Mani toba, in the ord inary homes where they do not have the money to spend and are urge d by the people in the consumer business to sp end more money , in the expecta tion of paying in the future . If we went back to a COD basis we would be much better off, and govern ments can and should do something about it .

The moneys that could be re duced from the consumer cre dit side could be used to keep interest rates at a decent level, espec ially amongst people who are involve d with their own re sidences, owners of their own homes who are in a terrible trap , created right now by having to renew their mortgages on the high interest rates . An d I would urge members of this House , an d espec ially the governme nt, not to take a lacka daisical view, which I believe and perceive it has been taking but a positive position to take and to deal with the problems of the eco nomy of this province. MR .

SPEAKER : Are you rea d y for the question? The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR . LEONARD S. EVANS: Mr . Speak er , I am sorry that the Minister of Finance is not in the house - maybe he will be returning - because last night he made a number of outlandish statements that are becoming typical of the Deputy Pre mier of this province ; statements that in my view, Mr . Speaker , are not becoming to a Minister of the Crown in this province.

He made a number of, as far as I am concerne d, very ru d e remarks and I guess you might say , "All is fair in love , war and politics" , but I think at some point if he does not turn off members in this House , he will cer tainly turn off the electorate in this province , if he hasn 't done so alread y. Because the kind of remarks ma d e by the Minister of Finance, as far as I am concerne d, lowers the level of debate in this House below a level that the people of Manitoba are deserving of . Mr .

Speak er, I am not going to take the time to go into all the statements and rebut all the points made by the Minister of Finance, but he did make a statement with regard to the Cana dian General Electric. Canad ian General Electric, which he said was prepared to build a plant, lo and behold of all places in the city which I have the honour to represent , the city of Brandon , and that I was not interested in it, I probably didn't even know about it and that we ma d e no effort whatsoever to try to get such jobs for the Province of Manitoba.

Well that, to anyone who knows the efforts of the previous govern ment and who knows of my particular interest and concern in developing the economy of Mani toba' s second largest city, knows that is pure una dulterated hogwash , pure un adulterated garbage , and that's what we get from the Minister of Finance of this province ; making outlandish statements; totally unreason able , unreal istic state ments without found ation. · Yes indee d, the Cana dian General Electric Company did bid on a contract to do work for Manitoba Hy dro .

I do not have the document, so I am just going from memory , but if my memory serves me corre ctly , Mr. Spea ker , indeed CGE did bid for a particular very , very large contract with regard to the Nelson River Develop ment, and indeed it did indicate to the government of the day that among other things it was prepare d to build a manu facturing fac ility in the Pro vince of Mani toba and perhaps in the City of Brandon . In fact, they did sp ecify that they would be intereste d in the City of Brandon .

And for anyone to think that I, or the government with which I was ass ociated, would not be interested in seeing more jobs , more manufacturing jobs in electrical appara tus ; anyone who wo uld think that is out of their mind , because Mr . Speaker , we were indeed very very interested and , indee d, I ha d sev eral meetings with the principals involved. I ha d many meetings with CGE and, indeed , so did my staff. We were very anxious , very willing, very much intereste d in working with CGE to do whatever we could to make sure that they would bu ild a plant in Brandon , Manitoba. Mr .

Speaker , there is such a thing known as the tendering system. There is - 1912 -

Tuesday , 1 April, 1980 such a thing known as a bid system, whereby certain standards, certain pro cedure s, certain ethical principles must be followed . And if we didn 't follow them I am sure honourable members opposite would be the first to have criticized us �t the time for not following time-honour ed , fa ir, square , bidding procedures of a public agency , namely Manitoba Hydro and , Mr . Speak er, I recall very clearly that CGE was not the lowest bidder .

I realize that you do not always accept the lowest bidder because you also have to look at the quality of the product that is being offered or the service that is being offere d; you have to look at the ability of the companies involved to del iver the ser vices; you have to check out so many things to ensure that the off er, that the bid that is being offered is adequate, that it will perform, that you will get the service or produc t, whatever , that you req uire . But Mr.

Speaker , I do recall being told by Manitoba Hydro officials that the lowest bidder in this case , and I hope I have the name right , Brown Boveri Canada Ltd. , a large manufacturer of electrical apparatus , indeed was the lowest bidder , indeed had a qua lity produc t, but they weren 't, Mr . Speaker , the lowest bidder by just a couple of dollars , a couple of hundred , or a couple of thousand dollars , they were the lowest bidder by many , many millions of dollars .

As a matter of fact, again I am going strictly by memory , but I believe that the differential between the lowest bid that was accepted because the Board of Manitoba Hydro said that that's the one that should be accepted because it was the low est , and CGE was in excess of $10 million . Mr . Speaker , I do not know what the Honoura ble Member for Minnedosa is saying from his seat ; I think he is talking about another matter. I don 't really think that he knows what he is talking about. He should go back to the friendly neigh bourhood bank and do his thing there .

But as far as this contract is concerned , there was no question that Manitoba Hydro and the government of Manitoba of the day would have been very , very remiss if it had not given it to the lowest bidder ; as I said the lowest bidder by in excess - I am sure I am not exagger ating when I say in excess - of $10 million. Mr .

Speaker , when the honoura ble member talks about 900 jobs that are now in existence and oper ation, I really say that proves nothing at all, because you do not know and you cannot know just what would have been involved in terms of em ployment by CGE in Manitoba. --( Interje ction )- - We ll, I spent many a meeting and many an hour with some key people of CGE, and so did my staff, because I was very , very anxious for them to be in Brandon.

The Honourable Member for Lakeside , the Minister of Public Works , knows me very well to know that I would not leave any stone unturned if I possibly could get that company in Brandon , no way . But there is such a thing as the Manitoba Hydro Utility Board bidding system and they said, No way . -- (Interjection)- - I didn 't hear him. At any rate, Mr .

Speaker , I wanted to stand up and put that on the recor d and to make it very clear that we were not remiss, that we 're very very aware of attracting manufacturing industry to Manitoba, and that if we were to do otherwise , we would have let the people of Manitoba down , we would have not been serving the taxpayers of Manitoba, and I think generally we would not have served the interests of Manitob a Hydro , as we did in this case . Having said that, Mr . Speaker , I do recall that through our efforts that we did get Federal Pioneer Electric to build an addition in Brando n.

They had an unfor tunate fire and we were persuasive , and we were very pleased that they decided to build, not to jus t rebuild but to expand their operation in the City of Brandon , and indeed it is still there today . And there is another company in the electrical apparatus field in Brandon that is a very small company . It struggled .

I remember having meetings with the board , with the presid ent of Inventronics Limited, who the Member for Brandon West , the Minister without Portfolio also knows , because it is certainly a local company with local finance, that I have taken some great deal of time and some pleasure in helping to build up in any way I could , over the yea rs . So we have been very concerned about building up electrical apparatus manufacturing in Brandon , as well as the rest of the province. Mr .

Speaker , I was particularly amused at the Honourable the Minister of Fi nance getting up and chastising the former NDP gove rnment, saying that we were bad managers , we didn 't know what we were doing, we were fools, we really didn't know which end was up , in so many word s. And then I remind myself of the question at - 1913 -

Tuesday , 1 April, 1980 hand ; I remind myself and I remind you of the bill before us , of the issue bef ore us . We are told , and we read in the paper that it's urgent , that we get on with the job of passing this legislation because cheques have to be issued . We' re at the last hour ; we 1 re at the ninety-ninth hour or the eleventh hour , and if you people don 't hurry up and stop talking and sit down and pass this, we 're going to have all kinds of difficulties. We ll, Mr .

Speaker , we 're being asked to approve 30 percent , nearly one-third of the budget of this government for this year , probably one of the largest amounts that's ever been asked for by any government on Interim Supply . But, Mr . Speak er, why is the governm ent, this great efficient governm ent, these wonderful managers, why do they have to wait till the eleventh hour to bring it in? Why didn 't they bring it in weeks ago? Didn 't they know a month ago that they had to have Interim Supply? Sure they did because we always have Interim Supply or we always seem to have it.

I think we 've had Interim Supply in this Legislature every one of the ten or eleven years that I've been here and I am sure we 've had it for years and years before that . So , Mr . Speaker , I simply say it's a case •• Here is a clear classic example of Tory incompetence. They 're just incompetent. They 're the bad managers. They ' re the people who are mismanaging and causing the civil servants and other persons who are dependent upon Manitoba government checks to be sitting on the edges of their seats wondering whether they 're going to get paid or not. It's not the Opp osition 's fault.

We would not be doing our job if we didn 't stand up and ask some questions, if we didn' t stand up and make some points. We would not be doing the job on behalf of the people that we represen t . We would not be doin g the job of trying to keep you people honest on behalf of the taxpayers of Mani toba. And the Minister of Consumer Affairs is the one that has to be watched in particular. I say , Mr . Speaker , that we have a classic case of incompetence right in front of us here today .

The Minister of Financ e and others on that side lament the doom-and-gloom statements that are made by the members of the opposition when it comes to looking at the economic situation and the economic future of this province. And I don 't know where the honoura ble members of the Treasury benches are . Maybe they 've got their heads in the sand . Maybe they 're isolated by their Tory advise rs , I don 't know what . But I can say , Mr. Speak er , categorically , it is not the NDP Opposi tion that has created the doom and gloom in this province.

It is not the NDP that has caused this veil of pessimism to spread over the depth and breadth of this great province of ours , this pessimism with regard not only to the economy but pessimism with regard to the very future existence of many of our communities and many of our small towns which are on the verge of disapp earing , the social fabric of which has been eroded and withered away year by year as we see the total popu lation of this province dec line .

The psychological outlet, this pessimistic mood that prevails this province is based on something very very real and concrete and that is the stark fact that this economy is in a Tory economic quagmire , that this economy is stagnating, and the business community of this province knows that Manitoba is stagnating under the Conservative administration of thi s province. -- (Intejection )- - The God that failed is a good expr ession.

All you have to do , you can look at reams of statistics, you examine the sta tistics objectively and seriously and you will have to come to only one conclusion and that conclusion is that of the ten provincial economies of this country of ours, probably the Province of Manitoba is, on, balance in the worst shape of any of those economies . Even little Prince Edward Island and eve n Newfound land , which has such a very checkered economic perf ormance over the yea rs , have been out -per forming this province in the past two ye ars . Mr .

Speaker, I say therefore , that the mood of pessimism is out there on the street and it's on the lips of the businessmen. The business men of this province are probably the most dissapointed people there are in our midst . Without ques tion, the businessmen are probably the most let down people in this province of ours because it was the business man who swallowed hook , line and sinker , the Premier 's line, the Premier of this province's line that you elect a Conservative government and great things will happen in the private sector.

As a matter of fact, the line go es : We will cut government spending, we will cut govern ment taxes, we will move aside and make way for the private sector where - 1914 -

Tuesd ay , 1 April, 1980 the private industry will have all the fre edom in the worl d to expand and prosper in the Province of Manitoba. Mr . Speaker, we are now in the third year of the office of the Conservative pro-business administration and I say , and I ask , where is that business expan sion; where are all those new industries ; where is this great glorious Tory econo mic heaven that was promise d by the Premier in the election of 1977? Mr . Speaker, we are not in a Tory economic heaven, we are in a Tory economic hell, and the businessmen of this province know that.

That's why we have the pessimism and the gloom in the business community, not because of my speeches or the speeches of my leader or the speeches of others on this side. Because the real concrete facts of lagging re tail sales , of lagging investment spen ding ••• You know, I don 't know, the Minister of Economic Develop ment a couple of weeks ago was play ing around with figure s; I'm sure he didn't know what he was talking about because the way I listened to him, he was entirely confusing. But no matter which way you slice the cake, cut the cake , the fact is, Mr .

Speaker - and this is the rub - that in Manitoba, forgetting about public investment - you can look at that as well if you want - but on their own terms if you look at private investment, that Manitoba's increase in private investment in this past year was the lowest of any province in this country of ours . As a matter of fact, this rate of increase - 1979 is pro jecte d, it is est imated by Statistics Cana d a to be 5.1 perc ent, only two-fifths of the Cana dian average increase of 12 .8 percent. The point, Mr .

Speak er , is that if you look at this in real terms, that is, if you squeeze out the inflation an d you see what is happening to private investment spen ding in Manitoba in 1979 , you see that the amount of spen ding, the increase in spend ing is less than half the rate of inflation that occurre d last ye ar. So if the rate of investment spend ing increase in the private sector is only half the rate of inflation, I say , Mr .

Speaker , it doesn 't take any genius to figure out that the amount of dollars spent on investment in plant and equipment in Manitoba in 1979 was lower than the amount of investment spend ing that went on in 1978. -- ( Interjectiion)- - I' 11 say it again because the Minister of Economic Development ••• This takes in all private investment spend ing. This is a survey that is conducted by Statis tics Cana d a of the entire private sector and the total private sector combined shows that we are stagnating. We are stagnating. -- ( Interje ction)- - Ok ay , a breakout in manufacturing. I can do that.

I will, because the Honoura ble Min ister of Economic Develop ment likes to boast and brag about what is happening to manufacturing . First of all, Mr . Speaker, let's get it clear that the level of manufacturing investment in Manitoba is so minute, is so insignificantly small that even if it double d or tripled or qua druple d, it still wouldn't amount to very much. It wouldn't have any effect at all because the level of spend ing is so low. Invest ment in manufacturing in Manitoba in last year is estimated to be $168 per cap ita. $1 68 per capita; that's investment in the manufacturing sector. Mr .

Speaker, that is only 36 .7 percent of Cana dian spen ding per capita, just over a third. In other words, we are way way down on the totem pole when it comes to spend ing on manufacturing . So even though the investment in manufacturing will increase by 33 1/2 percent in 1979 over 1978, I say , Mr . Speaker, that is a very very small number of investment dollars that you are talking about, very small. I wish it were bigger, but it isn 't bigger , it's small, so double, triple it, qua d ruple it, multiply it by 10 times. Maybe then you will have some impact.

But to say this tiny amount of investment spend ing has gone up by 33 percent is to say very little. Mr . Speaker, if you want to compare , because we are always lamenting about the Socialist government s, if you want to look at the government to the west of us, Mr .

Speaker , you will find that investment spend ing, which is also relatively of a small nature in Saskatchewan, but if you want to look at change s, in Saskatchewan they didn't increase by 33 1/2 percent that we ' re supp ose d to be increasing by , they incre ased by 64 percent . 64 .3 percent is the increase for new capital spend ing in manufacturing in Saskatchewan. That's investment in the manufacturing sector. Those are the figure s. You can get your own people to check those . That's for new capital. If you want to look at capital and rep air, you get another set of figures .

You get lower percentages both for Manitoba and for Saskatchewan. If you look at - 1915 -

Tuesday , l April, 1980 cap ital and repair in manufacturing , the increase is 24 .9 percent in Manitoba and 42 .4 percent in Saskatchewan. Mr . Speaker , it is these facts, it is these statistics that causes a mood of pessimism. It is also the news that a plant is clos ing down or that an industry is moving out of the province. The classic example is the meat packing industry , Swift Canad ian, where we had hundreds and hundreds of people thrown out of work in a very important industry , and all kinds of clippings , you know, you can read them.

Here 's a clipping, Friday , November 30 , 1979 from the Winnipeg Free Pre ss. I also have it from the Winnipeg - I'm sorry , this is from the Winnipeg Tribune . I have it from both papers . The story says, "Engineers leaving the province, say officials. Manitoba's consulting engineers are suffering badly because of econo mic conditions and many senior engineers are leaving the province, according to idustry officials.

The number of consulting engineers and support staff in Mani toba has dropped by roug hly 25 percent in the past two years , and unless things improve quickly, a lot more will leave this winter , said Douglas Grimes , a past presiden t of the Association of Professional Engineers of Manitoba. There have been layoffs of engineers and support staff, with the consul ting branch of the field hit especially hard said Walter Salzberg , the newly-elected president of the 2, 700-member assoc iation. 11 We ll, I could read all of this.

It goes on and on and on and they talk about • • • At any rate, he says there are about 200 consulting engineers in the Province of Manitoba at the present time. So I do n't have to make any speech to tell these people that we have got pretty slim pickings in the provincial economy of Manitoba under the Conservative administration. Then there are figures that show from time to time in the newsp ape rs, put out by the Winnipeg Construction Ass ociation. I'm not going to read all these fi gur es, but it would lead one to be very pessimistic about this. The only thing that I would read , Mr .

Speaker, it says, and this is the last two paragraphs of this article, the Winnipeg Free Pr ess , Tuesday , February 6, 1979 : "Government policies and reluctance of private investors are among the causes of unemploym ent, he said ." -- (Interje ction)- - Yes , a year ago , one year ago . This is said by Leo Desilets, president of the Building Trades Council. I do n't believe I know that gentleman , but this is what he said , so there is two things , you see . It's government spending , which is a no-no in the terms of the Tory economic philosophy .

Government spending is bad and should be avoided , should be minimized at all costs. So , okay , and that's the philosophy - I suppose you 're entitled to your position - but that is the position. You have bragged and boasted about how you 've squeezed down government spending , you 've kept it less than the rate of inflation and so on, and in real terms therefore you have cut back on government spending . So they say government policies are the cause of unemployment , that's what he says, Mr. Desilets, and I agree with him. And he also says that private investors are reluctant. Well, Mr .

Speak er , I say therefore that this government is damned on two counts because the private investment that was suppo sed to take place under a benevolent pro-business Tory administration has not taken place. It has simply not appeared on the scene whatsoev er. And let me conc lude the

article with this quote by Mr. Desilets: "With the election of the Progre ssive-Conservative government in Manitoba, a lot of people thought there would be an in-flow of private money . But politics is only one fac tor. Others include the raw resour ces, ener gy , service land and mortgage rate s, etc. 11, and that's right, that is true.

But when the Premier of this province was on this side as the Leader of the Opp osition, all of the economic problems we ever had when we were in government were to be blamed on those dirty rotten socialists that should be driven out of the land, that don 't deserve to exist, in so many word s. Our rat-infested nest of communists, so cialists, he even threw Liberals in there I think - and other fellow travellers that don 't de serve to even have ever been born , that are in abhoration on the political scene . It was everything that went wrong . This was all our fault. It was the governm ent 's fault.

So I say , Mr . Speaker , on the terms that the Premier of this province has laid down , he and his colleagues have to take full and total accountability of the failings of this business economy of ours under their administration. We cannot change the rules of the game . The rules of the game are the same , and if we 1 re going to be responsible for whatever economic woes and ills that we had in the - 1916 -

Tuesday , 1 April, 1980 period of 1969 to 1977 , I say that this government has to take total and complete respon sibility for the very sad state of affairs that we 're experiencing now. Mr . Speaker , the fact is that this government is running scared . It has suf fered a setback in its morale. In the federal election of May of 1979, a very very serious blow was struck at the morale of the Conservatives in this Legisla ture . And , Mr .

Speak er , a second very major blow was struck just a few week s ago in the rerun of the federal election of February , 1980, when the Conservatives within the province of Manitoba - and we ' re not talking about the total federal scene , we know what happened but within the province of Manitoba - where they lost even more seats . So that they have lost, I guess it is, five or six seats in a period of a year . They have dropped from being the dominant party in the federal scene among the members of Parliament elected, to being second after the New Democratic Party . So , Mr .

Speak er , this government is running scared and there is no eviden ce of any policy thrust , any meaningful policy thrust , coming from the other side . Now I know they like to make announcements and the Minister of Economic De velopment , the other day got up and read some DREE statements. Of course , those statements, you can make them every month and you can make them ever y month ever since DREE was formed . I could have done that as well. One always wonders , you know, with the DREE grants ••• And I, incidentally , am advocating if Ottawa wants to hand out the money we might as we ll take it.

I'm always glad to take every dollar we can get for the province of Manitoba. We 'll take every dollar we can get. But I think the Minister of Economic Development will have to agree that it is sometimes questionable whether the DREE money really does very much in the long long run . I'm talking about the industrial incentive grants because the fact is that in many instances I believe - and I think one might even be able to do a study on this and show quite conclusively - that many of these industries would have established anyway and that therefore the DREE grant becomes something of a fo rm of a welfare game .

It becomes eq uivalent to that. --( Interje ction)- - I beg your pardon? I can't hear you . Mr . Speaker , I say when I was Minister, we tried to get every DREE dollar we could , and why not? So I'm not knocking the eff orts to get every dollar from Ottawa that you can , providing there aren 't unnecess ary strings attached and unacceptable conditions attached. But I say it's very questionable whether those companies that are announcing that they 've got DREE money and they 're going to create so many jobs , whether those sort of expansions or develop ments wouldn 't have occurred anyway . Mr .

Speaker , the overall pro blem • And , incidentally, it remains to be seen how successful the enterprise develop ment centres will be . It's going to be very interesting to see just what is going to happen with these particular centres , whether we 're going to be spending a lot of money to help the small enterprises' the cause of which is very admirable, but perhaps would have developed along any way .

I mean, who can tell whether the little company that comes into the enter prise develop ment centre wouldn 't have established in some other small private facility , in some building that the person happened to get fairly cheaply , or what have you? Who can tell, therefore , that those who move into these enterprise develop ment centres are really net additions on the industrial scene? -- (Interj ection)- - We ll, that is a problem, sure ; it is a problem. We tried, on a very limited scale with very little money , using the old hangar in Dauphin, the same thing.

But I said the same thing then to the staff and I say it now publicly , who can tell whether what you ' re doing is really -- (Interje ction)- - Well , where was it then? If it wasn 't in an old hangar , it was in an older building in Dauphin. But I know that there were some old build ings on the Airport field where there was a lot of. • • But the amiable , happy -go-luck y Minister of Economic Development may enlighten us.

That's what I like about the Minister of Economic Development , he 's so easy-go ing, he 's so quick to smile and so quick to be happy and make us all feel so wonderful because he 's such an amiable guy , smiling. The smiling happy-go-lucky Minister of Economic Developme nt. Mr . Speaker , the philosophy of this gove rnment, the least gove rnment is the best government , I think really boxes this government into a corner. Because really one of the major solutions to a slow economic situation is to st imulate the economy through judicious, selective government initiative, positive action by - 1917 -

Tuesd ay, 1 April, 1980 gove rnment. But that is a policy that how many times the Premier of this province has re je cted as being bad, as bein g tantamount to socialism. It really isn't, you know, it really isn't. But the Premier of this province likes to think so and he waxes eloquently and takes us down into the depths of the gutter in some of his remarks when he describes this type of economic policy and economic approac h.

But the Tories have boxed themselves in because they said public initiative is not what they want; that public initiative, initiative by govern ment or government agencies is to be avoided at all costs. Therefore I say , Mr . Speaker , that they are boxed in by their own philosophy and by their own dogma. I say qu ite cate gorically nd very simply , Mr . Speaker , that without question, Tory dogma over sha dows reason every time. Dogma overshad ows reason without question. And, Mr . Speaker , the incompetence of this government • • • MR . SPEAKE R: Or der. Ord er please . The honourable member has five minutes.

MR . EVANS : Thank you , Mr . Speak er. The incompetence of this government is becoming evident day after day. As I said before , the fact that we 're discussing this at the eleventh hour ; it's brought in at the eleventh hour ; we 're suppose d to pass and say Amen to let you pay your bills; I think that alone is a sign of very inadeq uate management. But, Mr . Speaker , using their own criteria, of deficits being bad, I say where have the deficits • • • Where is this big surplus that the government was sup pose d to bring in? Surplus on the bu dget of Manitoba? The deficits have not disappeare d, Mr .

Speak er, in spite of the starvation of soc ial services in this province ; in spite of socking it to the people who live in the nursing homes in this province ; in spite of socking it to the people who depend on Pharmacare assis tance ; in spite of the students who have to pay greater community college fees ; in spite of the increase in university tuition fees ; in spite of cutbacks in assistance to people through legal aid; in spite of a re duction of assistance to the Winnipeg Transit System ; in spite of all these cutbacks ; in spite of all this effort to shift the costs of services from the shoulders of this government onto the municipal taxpayers or onto users ; in spite of this effort to push it over to the university students or the nursing home re sidents, on the principle that the user should pay more , we still have deficits, Mr.

Speake r. And as a result , Mr . Speaker , Manitobans, who were suppose d to be going bank rupt in 1977 und er an NDP government because of the per capita debt we ha d at that time, Manitobans have more per capita debt today than ever before in their his tory ; more per capita debt than ever before , and on your own criterion, because that's suppose d to be so bad. If we were bankrupt in 1977 , Mr . Speak er, what are we now? What are we to d ay ? We were bankrupt. Those are the word s of the First Minister of this province when he was the Lead er of the Opp osition.

We were bank rupt und er the NDP because we had such a high per capita debt.T he per capita debt is up by what - $700 to $8 00 - $850 .0 0. Where are we today? What are we today? I say , Mr . Speaker , using their own criteria they have done a very ba d job of government in the past two yea rs. Mr . Speaker , we could look at all kinds of spec ifics where they 've wasted money . And one area, as far as I'm concerned, that is a total waste of money is thB utilization of private aud itors to do the work that the Provincial Auditor was doing very very well.

An d the taxpayers of Manitoba are paying hundre ds of thou sands of dollars a year more for nothing . You ' re wasting the taxpayers ' money just because you want to give your frien ds some contracts, including Tory bank men , and your friend Harry Martin mentioned that in the proc ess , that one particu lar Tory bank man was well reward ed by getting, I think it was the Manitoba Hyd ro , auditing contract. That's Harry Martin. I haven 't got the clipping with me but I can get it and rea d it to you . Mr . Speaker , there 's been money wasted, as far as I'm concer ne d, in the Burns Re port on Autopac.

What a total sheer waste of money that was a sheer and total waste of money . The Tritschler Report , as far as I'm concerne d, was nothing but a political document right from the start. Nothing but a political ••. and every body knows it, the people of Manitoba know it. The only sa d part of it is , that hun dre ds of thousands, if not millions , of dollars have been spent in the pro cess . So I say , we 're wasting money . We wasted money by borrowing from Alberta - 1918 -

Tuesday , 1 April, 1980 the other year by paying an excessive rate of interest. There was money wasted there . MR . SPEAKE R: Order please . Order please . The honourable member 's time has expired . MR . EVANS : Thank you very much, Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER : The Honoura ble Minister will be clos ing debate. The Honourable Minister of Natural Resour ces. HON . BR IAN RANSOM (Souris-Ki llarney ): Mr .

Speak er , the Bill before us deals with the issue of whether or not there should be funds granted to Her Ma jesty for carrying out the business of government during the period that the Esti mates are before the House . I have listened very carefully to the debate and I have not heard any substan tive issues raised relative to the princ iple of whether or not the govern ment should be provided with the funds to pay their bills for the next period of time until the appropriation bill is passed . Theref ore , Mr . Speak er , I recommend this bill to the House . QUESTI ON put, MOTI ON carried . MR .

SPEAK ER : The Honour able Government House Leader. MR . MERCI ER : Mr. Speaker , I move , with leave , seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs , Mr . Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider and report on the follow ing bill for third reading , No . 22 ,

An Act for Granting to Her Maje sty Certain Sums of Money for the Public Service of the Province for the Fiscal Year Ended the 3lst Day of March, 1981 and to Authorize Commitments to Expend Additional Money in Subseq uent Years. MOT ION presented and carried . COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE BILL NO. 22 - THE INTERIM APPROPR IAT ION ACT, 1980 MR . CHA IRMAN , Morris McGregor (Virden) : The matter before the Committee is Bill 22,

An Act for Granting to Her Majesty Certain Sums of Money for the Public Service of the Province for the Fiscal Year Ending the 3lst Day of March, 1981 , and to Authorize Commitments to Expend Additional Money in Subseq uent Years .

Section 1-- pass ;

Section 2--pass - the Member for St. Johns . MR . CHERN IACK : I can't help but stop and comment on the way the gove rnment has handled this bill. The Minister introduced the bill and commented in closing debate on second reading that nothing has been said about whether or not the government should have the means with which it can carry on business until the Appr opriations Bill is pass ed , and that is traditional that there be such a bill because the governm ent, no matter how inadquate it is, still has to function, no matter how much it stumbles as it does so.

Certainly we in opposition would not expect to hinder the govern ment by preventing it from doing what it has been charged to do. Mr . Chairman, I cannot, howeve r, overlook the comments made by the Minister of Finance today , who made some crack during the Question Period about the extent to which I have participated in the debate. Thank God I never had to ask him for perm ission , nor would I want to, nor would I need to.

Certainly I feel that there have been comments made and the opposition has taken the advantage of the right it has to debate matters that it considers important during this bill, as it has on certain other occasions in the Legislative Session, and it ill behooves anybod y, I believe , to criticize these matters being debated . It most ill behooves the government which, when it was in opposition, made a big deal on Interim Supply of - 1919 -

Tuesday , 1 April, 1980 extend ing debate over a consider able period of time threatening, indeed threaten ing, to withhol d approval beyong the date req uired to pay the salaries of the civil servants and other paym ents, in order to extract from the government an undertaking to hold, as I recall it, an inquiry commission on some issue com pletely unre lated to the purpose of this bill.

Of cour se , the Minister of Natural Resourc es was not present , but he may be interested in history and he may take the trouble to ask the Minister of Consumer Affairs how he engineered that effort on the part of the Conservative opposition to block the progress of governm ent. You , Mr . Chairman, were here and you may even have been a pa rticipant in that debate because it seems to me the entire opposition took it upon itself to debate what it wanted to debate and I think it was almost ever y day .

On that occasion , and I speak only from memory so I may well be proven to be wrong , I think we introduced Interim Sup ply - this was about 1974 , I be lieve on either March 10 or March 12 - expec ting that it wou l d be hand led in the routine way because when I was in opposition previousl y, I remember the who le thing was hand led in ha lf an hour or so . We went through all the stages without debate.

But it was the Conservative opposition that taught me that this is the correct opportunity to speak on any issue that it wants to speak on, but in that cause they actually used their right in order to obstruct governme nt, in order to black mail government into acceding to their demands on another matter altogether. I haven 't forgo tten that and I'm sure the Minister of Consu mer Affairs , who I be lieve engineered the who le thing , hasn 't forgo tten it. Therefore , I do criticize the House Leader , whose respons ibility it is to bring matters before the House , to have brought in Interim Supply on Friday .

I be lieve it was Thursday that the Leader of the Opposition asked when Interim Supply was coming. It came in on Friday , Mr . Chairman, and I think it was a gambl e that they took , and which I guess they had a right to take because they do have a responsi ble oppo sition with whom they are de aling. By bringing it in on Friday and having received , by leave , with the unanimous consent of the House , having received per mission by leave to bring in this matter by way of motion to Supply Committee and then move right into Ways and Means and , Mr .

Speaker , I mentioned yest erday that the Minister was unab le to answer the question I posed in Ways and Means and started looking for staff -- (Interjection)- - Pardon? I gather , Mr . Chairman , I am he lpful to the Minister now, for speaking as I am, to give him time to get his staff together. Mr. Chairman, I am really shocked , as is he , by the fact that they are not here . I share some of the respon sibility because I thought that I had trained that staff to be sitting upstairs in the Ga llery to be working and ready to deal with the issues that they know is current l y and importantl y before them. Mr .

Chairman , I have been interrupted and I thank the Member for Logan for pointing out to me that Interim Supply, that this question came before us on Wednesday , and he is right. As I recall now, it came in on Wednesday ; on Thurs day , the Minister of Natura l Resources introduced the bill and we adjourned debate and spoke on it Friday . So it was neverthe less hand led exp editiously and we are not ••• There he comes. Let me tell the Minister of Natural Resour ces, the Deputy is here and all is now so lved because he will have al l the answers to all my que stions , I am sure , because as I say , Mr.

Chairman , I had something to do with bringing him up to this leve l of assistance to us. So I point out and I tell the Honou rab l e the House Leader that there was not enough time allowed unless the government was going to gamble. Appar entl y the government was prepared to gamb l e and they succeeded because we are not going to block them del iberately. We are not going to block them at all, so we can pro ceed , Mr . Chairman . But I want to indicate that I will not accept the Minister of Finance saying , well, we are endangering the paycheq ues of the Civil Service because the Member for St.

Johns , or anyone else , spoke too much to his liking. It's not for him to decide that and it wou l d be provident and right for the govern ment to either clear in advance the number of days that would be permitted for Interim Supply so that we know that we have an agreement on it. There 's nothing wrong with that, Mr . Chairman . There shou l d be a good dea l more discussion between the House Leader and the Opposition Lead er , planning the work of the Legislature so that there are - 1920 -

Tuesday , l April, 1980 no poss ibilities of blackmail as existed a number of years ago when the Conservat� ves were in opposition, nor a pos sibility of threats which exist if the opposition may be blamed for debating an issue so long that the gove rnment is put in an embarrassin g position when it comes to payment of wages and other necess ary items . One other thing , Mr . Chairman. I wanted to mention that earlier but I didn't have time . The Minister of Finance yester day - I think it was yester day - accused the Member for Churchill of a fraudulent act, or doing something fraudu lent. Mr .

Chairman , I let it slip by . I think we are letting these things happen a little too much. Fraud is a criminal offence and for a member in this House to accuse somebody else of committing a criminal offence is a serious thing. But we let it slip by and the Speaker let it sli p by and I think that we are becoming pretty sloppy in the way we are checking each other up on the language we use .

I don 't say anybody is any more pure than anybody else , but it's not very nice and I think we ought to start checking each other up more often and I would welcome being checked up if I used improper , unparl iamentary language . I would welcome that in the interest of the general decorum. But, Mr . Chairman, by the same token , I intend to do that too. MR . CHA IRMAN: 2--pass - the Member for St . Vital. MR . D. JAMES WALDI NG : Mr . Chairman , I understand we are still on Clause No . 2. I did have a few questions that I wanted to ask at this stage of the Minister, Mr . Chairman .

I am rather surprised to see that the Minister in whose name this bill stands is not present in the House to answer questions that might arise during its course . I wonder if the Minister can confirm that a portion of the $5 68 million under this particular clause will go to the Department of Finance. MR . CHA IRMAN: The Minister of Natural Resour ces. MR . RANSOM: Perhaps the member could be a little more specific in his question when he say s, "go to the Department of Finance. " MR . WALD ING : Mr .

Chairman, knowing that debate in the House is supposed to be strictly on the clause before the House, I did want to make sure that I was in order because my questions had to do with some expenditures by the Department of Finance . I wanted to conf irm with this Minister that some of the moneys that we are approving under this

section will in fac t go to the Department of Finance and so that I would be entirely in order in asking the questions . MR . RANSOM : Yes, Mr . Chairman, some of this money will be going to every department. MR . WALDI NG : Would it in that case be asking too much that the Minister of Finance be in his seat in the Chamber and in a position to answer some of the questions that I might have? They are to do with Hydro and some expenditures on reports that the present Minister who is sitting in the front bench might not have the answer to. I have been reminded again by my colleague s, Mr .

Chairman , that it is the Minister of Finance who has the respon sibility for piloting this particular bill, and since I don't see him in the Chamber , it would make it rather difficult for him to answer those questions that I might have and would perhaps be unfair to his colleagues to ask them to answer qu estions that they might not have intimate knowledge of. And to go back a little bit if I may , Mr .

Chairman, still with one eye on the clock, the First Minister made an announcement in the House a few days ago having to do with an agre ement that was being signed between the three Prairie Pro vinces calling for a final report on the feasibility of a Western Electric Power Grid . At the same time and in support of that • • I can't find the reference im mediately that I was looking for, Mr . Chairman, but Mr . Chairman, I'm get ting more heckling from this side than I am from the other side and it's more disconcerting to be heckled by my own colleages than from members opposi te. - 1921 -

Tuesday , 1 April, 1980 But in any case , Mr . Chairman, you will recall that this was the report that the Minister tabled at the time of making that announcement to the House . I con sidered it a little odd that the First Minister would be making such an announce ment when it was the Minister of Finance, who is also the Minister reporting for Hydro , and the Minister of Energy plus a few other things , and that it is his friend , Mr . Gordon Spafford , who actually produced this report that was put for ward to us.

I do notice that the price of the report was $300 ,000 and it has been indicated to me that this amount was paid at standard engineering consulting rates plus expens es , and I wonder if it was just a coincidence that the req uired number of hours plus the req uired amount of expenses should come to exactly $300 ,000.00. And one of the questions that I had of the Minister of Finance, the Minister reporting for Hydro , was how was the contract awarded for this particular study? Was there a tendering process involved?

Was the dec ision made jo intly by the four western provinces or their Ministers of Ene rgy or whatever the appropriate title is in the other juris dictions? So perhaps I can start with that question and ask the Minister if he can inform me as to how the letting of the tenders for this particular engineering study was arrived at? MR . CHAI RMAN: The Acting Minister of Finance. MR . RA NSOM: First of all, Mr .

Chairman, I think the question that the honourable member raised with respect to the announcement being made by the First Minister in the House here on Wednesday , and the Minister of Energy not being here to make it, was purely a question of the Minister responsible for Ener gy being in Edmonton signing the agreement that day and the three First Ministers of Manitoba and Saskatchewan and Alberta, I believe , all made announcements in their respec tive Legislatures while their Ministers of Energy were signing the agreement .

The details of the consulting contract and I am sure that the Minister of Finance will be able to respond more fully , I expect that he 'll be here this even ing. The same reason happens to be , of course , Mr . Chairman, why I was in the position of introducing the bill of course , while the Minister of Finance was away signing that agreement in Edmonton . The que stion of the awarding of the consult ing contr act, I think that the Honourable Member for St.

Vital is probably aware that consulting contracts of that nature are not usually tendered as such, but that proposals may be called for or a given organization that has the capabilities of doing the work ; they are spec ialists in the type of work that's req uired , will simply be approached and a contract will be negotiated. And it is my under standing and I wish to make that clear , it is my understandin g that those were the circumstances in this case . As to why the bill arrived at a round figure , Mr. Chairman , I would have to make some inquiries into just why the figure was a round $300 ,000 .0 0. MR .

CHA IRMAN: 2. --p ass . The Member for St . Vital. MR. WALD ING: Thank you , Mr . Chairman, I accept the Minister 's explanation that the reason that he is sitting there is that the Minister of Finance was still out of the province when it was time to introduce the particular bill. But I will point out to him that the Minister is now back in the province and we would have expected to see him sitting on the front bench and in a position to answer some of these questions , some of which may well be of a more detailed nature and that the Minister of Finance can answer better.

The Minister did mention that when it comes to the awarding of engineering consulting contracts, that these are freq uently not done by tender as such and that it is more freq uently in the nature of consulting companies making a proposal to the hiring authority and that a company having the capability and the expertise to do the study is then chosen usually in consultation. And I will say just as an aside, would it not be a fact that our own Hydro utility; Manitoba Hydro , would in fact be experts in this field and in a position to carry out such a study . I want to get back to that a little bit later.

And the Minister may recall some questions that were asked of the Minister reporting for Hydro this afternoon on another engineering study . And we do await with interest to see how that particular situation will resolve itself. Members may not be aware from the questioning of the Member for Inkster this afternoon , - 1922 -

Tuesday , 1 April, 1980 but that particular tender call closed on November 5th, which is five months ago and that those companies who were asked to submit propo sals were then asked to keep their proposals open for 90 days, which I understand is most unusu al.

However , at the expiry of some ninety days, they were further contacted and again asked to extend the time in which the tenders were open for a further 30 days which takes us to some time in March , at which time the Hydro Board had still not selected a consulting consortium, because I understand it's not just a single company, they are groups of companies , and that a further extension was requested of the tenderers until about the second week in Apr il. I believe the date is the 14th , but I am not absolutely certain of it, again which will bring us to some five months after the closing date.

The Minister should be aware and perhaps other members on that side who are in the engineering profession, that there are a considerable number of rumours ram pant in the city about this particular contract. I would suggest the Minister has some duty to clarify this situation, not only as far as Hydro is concerned and the engineering profession itself, but for suspicious members of the Legislature and others who are raising questions as to the viability of Hydro 's tendering process . Mr .

Chairman, I notice that the Minister of Finance and the Minister reporting for Hydro is now back in his seat and that we are almost at the time for Private Members ' Hour . I would repeat the question that I raised earlier and perhaps we can resume it at 8:0 0 o 'clock this evening .

The first question that I had raised with the Minister was as to the selection of Unies Limited as the consult ing en gineers in this particular instance and while we ' re on that topic, perhaps the Minister could also explain why Manitoba picked up one-third of the total cost with the balance being spread through the other three provinces. MR . CHAI RMAN: It is now 4:3 0. I am interrupting the proceedin gs for Pri vate Members ' Hour and will return to the Chair at 8:0 0 p.m . PR IVATE MEMBERS ' HOUR MR . SPEAK ER : Order please . We are now under Private Members ' Hour.

On Tuesday , the first order of business is Private Bills. We have Bill No . 24 ,

An Act to amend The Manitoba Club Act, 1931 . (As corrected ). SECOND READI NG - PRI VATE BILLS BILL NO . 24 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE MAN ITOBA CLUB ACT, 1931 MR . WARREN STEEN presented Bill No . 24 ,

An Act to amend The Manitoba Club Act, 1931 , (As correc ted) for second reading. MOT ION present ed . MR . SPEAK ER : The Honoura ble Member for Crescentwood . MR . STEEN: Mr. Speak er, in moving this bill on behalf of this particular club that has been in existence for better than 100 years , there are three aspec ts to the bill that I wish to speak about at this particular time,

Section 2 which is the first aspec t of the bill is

Section 2 of The Manitoba Club Act, 1931, being

Chapter 110 , of the Statutes of Manitoba, 1931 is amended ; we are amending it by striking out the words and figures : "the real property not to exceed in value the sum of $5 001 000.0 0", which is in the 12th and 13th lines of the original bill. The purpose for striking out the word s that I have just quoted which is really the sum of the value is that the club 's building today is valued at $2 .8 5 mil lion. In 1931 the value of that building was at that time consider ed to be in the neighbourhood of $5 00, OOO or less .

One of the problems that arises by leaving that bill unupdated is that the club, for insurance purposes for example , can't insure the building for its true value, and therefore it's insured for a figure in 1931 dollars rather than 1980 dollars . So it is the desire of the Board of Di rectors and the club members in that particular club to see that figure stricken and not replaced with another figure because of inflation and other things that - 1923 -

Tuesday , l April, 1980 may change the current value of $2 . 85 million. So what we ' re trying to do and wanting to do with this amendment is to take out that half million dollar figure . In the second proposal of the amendment, which is deal ing with

Section 1 of the original Act, what we ' re doing here is we ' re amending it by striking out the word s, and I quote again: "And until new members are elected , the committee shall continue as at present to consist of seven such members as of follows . 11 And then it goes on to name seven members that were listed in the 1931 Act. As of today , Mr . Speaker , none of those seven persons that were listed in the 1931 Act are alive or members of the club .

So , what we are doing here is we 're eliminating the names from the original bill and leaving it so that it will read that the members that are elected each and every year to the board of directors will govern the activities of the club and not put individual names into the Act.

Section 10, which is the third ••• MR . SPEAK ER : Order , order please . May I just point out to the honourable member that in Second Reading he should not be referring to specific sections of the bill as such, but rather his comments should be more general in nature . The Honourab le Member for Cresce ntwood . MR . STEEN : The third change then, Mr . Speaker , in the amendment is that in the original bill, it says that the total sum that the club could undertake for renovations or could ever spend on behalf of the members is $2 50, OOO . 00 .

We 1 re striking out in the bill, "N ot to exceed a total sum of $2 50 , OOO 11 and again leav ing that open-ended , and the reason for that is that if the club wanted to go into major renov ations - and there is some thought that they might go into health and exerc ise facilities , in conjun ction with the facilities they do now offer - that $250 , OOO would not go very far in renovating a building that's worth almost $3 million. So , it is the wish and the desire of the board of directors of the club to el iminate the ceilin g of $250 ,000 that could be spent at any one time by the club on behalf of the club.

So , Mr . Speak er, those are the three changes that the amendment refers to and if there are any quest ions from members opposi te, I would be glad to try and answer them; if not, I would recommend that the bill be given Second Reading. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR . DESJAR DINS : I'd just like to ask a question of the member . How many lady members are there in this club at the last count? MR . SPEAK ER : Order , order please . The question can only be one of clari fication of the subject matter that has been brought forward .

The honourable member may raise that as a question during deba te, but the quest ions that can be asked at this time are only for clarification of • MR . DESJAR DINS : But, Mr . Speak er, I • MR . SPEAKER : The Honoura ble Member for St. Boniface. MR . DESJARDI NS : I assure you it's for clarif ication, because the member said that they wanted to make some renov ation. I wanted to know if they were going to set a • • • Other toilets. It's one that we haven 't got in this facil ity, just for clarification, Mr . Speak er. MR . SPEAKER : The Honoura ble Member for Cresc entwood . MR . STEEN: Mr.

Speaker , I said that the club is contemplating renova tions . They haven 't any concrete plans for renovations as of yet , primarily because they can 't do very much with $250 ,000 .0 0. But as far as women members are concern ed , there are none that are members of this club; it is a men 's club . There are women that are permitted into the club and they do have a specific din ing area for women alone and , of course , many of the other areas of the club are for mixed company , but there are no women members ; it's a men 's club . - 1924 -

Tuesday , 1 April, 1980 MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for St . Johns . MR . CHERNIACK : Mr . Speaker , I'd like to ask the honourable member a ques tion or tw o. Firstly , what is there adverse to the present Act by leaving in the persons mentioned by name , all of whom were , no doubt , fine , estimable people who historically were the founde rs? What damage is there to the continuation of their name for historical purposes in that section? Is it deemed legally necess ary to eliminate these fine people from the historical Act? MR . STEEN: We ll, as the Act now sits, it was passed in 1931 , Mr .

Speaker , the seven persons that were then named , as I mentioned , are deceased now and what they would like in place of that is substituting the words "elected in accordance with this Act, and by the by-laws made thereafter or thereunder ," and what they would want to do is to leave it sort of open-ended because they have an election of officers each and every year like most clubs, and that the officers that are duly elected by the membership of the club would be the ones that would be serving the club in that particular year and they wouldn 't want to have my se lf or any other member coming back here and changing the exact names each and every ye ar .

But as far , for historical reasons or something, I'm sure that the original seven people that were listed in the 1931 bill could be left in someplace within the club . But I might mention to the Honoura ble Member for St. Johns that this club was established back in 1874 , so the bill that was passed in 1931 may have been updating a bill from some previous time prior to that, and may have been a third or fourth amendment for all I know. So , I have my doubts that the club would want to leave the names of the seven persons that were so listed in 1931 in and just have it open-ended for the board of directors .

MR . CHERNIACK : Mr . Speaker , I thank the honoura ble member. I would like to ask him further whether he could undertake to have somebody on behalf of the Manitoba Club, appear at committee in order to answer the question I just pre viously asked him and , also , to answer whether or not there is the assurance that this club will be prevented from going into the real estate business by the fact that the ceilings are restricted and are now being removed and , thirdly , whether that person will be prepared to deal the human rights' law aspect of the opera tions of the Manitoba Club. MR .

STEEN: At the time of committee, Mr . Speaker , either the legal solici tor the Manitoba Club , or the presiden t of the club, or both, will be present to answer any questions. MR . SPEAK ER : The Honoura ble Member for Logan. MR . WILLIAM JENKINS : Mr . Spea ker , I beg to move , seconded by the Honour able Member for Burrows that debate be adj ourned . MOTION presented and carried . MR . SPEAK ER : We then move into public bills, adjo urned debate on Second Reading, Bill No . 25, standing in the name of the Honour able Member for Logan. MR . JEN KINS : Stand, Mr . Speaker.

RESOLUTION NO . 15 - USE OF SEAT BELTS MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR . DOE RN : Mr. Speaker , I move , seconded by the MLA for Burrows that;

WHEREAS it has been established that the wearing of seat belts will reduce the degree of automobile accidents, and

WHEREAS a number of health and safety organizations have called for the legislation of compulsory seat belts, and

WHEREAS a number of provinces require their usage , - 1925 -

Tuesday , 1 April, 1980

BE IT RESOLVED THAT the Province of Manitoba enact legislation requiring the compulsory use of seat belts. MOTION presented . MR . SPEAK ER : The Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR . DOERN: Thank you , Mr . Speaker . Mr . Speaker , this question, I think, has been a subje ct of discussion for at least 10 year s, that I am familiar with and perhaps some members might recall debates going back earlier than that.

One would as sume that among the strongest supporters of this legislation would Ministers of Highways and I recall, in the early days of our administration, talk by one of our Highways' Minister, Joe Borowski by name , and he had considered bringing in legislation concerning this matter but, in the end , it did not perc eive .

The Minister of Government Services , when he was the Minister of Transportation and Hig hways, he effected an interest in this issue - and there were several times, of course, he 's one of the best effectors around and he as sumed the posture which indicated that he would bring in legislation - and I waited to see , but after several public statements, he couldn 't get it through the First Minister. So , although there was a hint and a suggestion, Mr . Spea ker, nothing came of it.

Now I have to turn to the newest , most rambu nctious son of a Pre mier , one who reflects the Premier in his right-wing aspirations and philosophy , and appeal to him. I don 't know his position and I look forward to hearing his particular stand on this issue. Mr . Speak er, it 1 s rather peculiar that the federal govern ment in the United States and Canada requires the compulsor y installation of seat belts in new auto mobiles and , although we have made progress in that regard , there is still not, in our province , legislation requiring their wearing or usage .

I would like to quote from an excellent press release that was issued in Octo ber of 1979 by the Manitoba Medical Association concerning their call for compul sory seat belts, a seat belt law in Manitoba. And they urge , Mr. Speak er, the provincial government to introduce compulsor y seat belt legislation for all motor vehicle occupants over six years of age . And here , I think, is a matter which we can easily discuss and deba te.

Assuming members would be in favour of this legis lation, one can argue for people over five years of age ; over six years of age , one can argue in favour of front seat occupants or all occupants of a vehicle. I simply point out in passing that the MMA called for compulsory legislation for all occupants, front and back seat , over six years of age.

This was then sub mitted to, at that time Highways Minister, Harry Enns , and they pointed out that the public has invested all this money in seat belts and yet , in effe ct, because they have not spent money on education programs stressing their usage that money has been wasted because, of course , the belts are not generally in widespread use . I point out also that the Canadian Medical Association passed a resolution last June endorsin g the MMA pos ition. A few facts and figures here : Since 1965 approximately 200 people per year have been killed in motor veh icle accidents in Manitoba.

From 1972 to 1976 , an average of some 10,000 people per year have been irrjured in road mishaps . And accord ing to this brief, in a person 's lifetime, a citizen has a 50 percent chance of being injured in a motor vehicle accident. Note, Mr . Speaker , not being involved in a motor ve hicle accident but in being injured in one .

In 1977 , the Manitoba Government or the people of Manitoba in medical and hospital care spent $1 .2 million for autom obile injuries and the cost of Autopac settlements, which will be of interest to Ministers of Autopac and former Minis ters , and so on, the settlements for personal injuries resulting from motor ve hicle accidents was $10 .7 million. Here are two of the most persuasive argume nts: a study in Manitoba covering 1969 to 1974 showed that unbelted drivers involved in serious accidents had a fatality rate six times higher than did belted drivers .

Without a seat belt the over all risk of injury from motor vehicle accidents is increased four times; and the risk of injury is 65 percent greater ; and the risk of death rises by an average of 50 per cent. That from the medical profession in Manitoba . - 1926 -

Tuesd ay , 1 April, 1980 I think it could also be argued quite easily that if there was compulsory seat belt legislation in the province there could probably be a reduction of Autopac premiums in a given ye ar. The Saskatchewan government attributes a 5 percent reduc tion in their automobile premiums due to the introduction of compulsory seat belts.

In settlement costs, I note that the Supreme Court of British Columbia in a judgment reduced an award from $4 0,000 to $30 ,000, took $10 ,000 out, because the person involved in the accident was not wearing a seatbelt and therefore it was ruled that they contributed , I gues s, to their own injury or to the extent of their injury . I assume that that is a landmark legal decis ion but I leave that up to the lawyers in the Chamber . Mr .

Speaker , it is a significant point that, at this point in our history in Canada , 80 percent of Canadians are now living with compulsory seat belt legisla tion; 80 percent of the population of Canada is required to wear seat belts and this is because of the four provinces that now have such legislation. January 1, 1976, Ontario started; June , 1976 , six months later, Quebec followed ; July 1, 1977 , Saskatchewan ; and then finally on September 1 of 1977, B.C.

So we know that Ontario and Quebec and B.C. are the three largest provinces and add to that Sas katchewn, 80 percent of the population now has this legislation. I assume that the best approach in adopting such legislation would be to have a gradual introduction and implementation, that one would need sufficient lead time, that one would have to introduce a major publicity and public information pro gram. Imagine, Mr.

Speaker , it just comes to me as I think of that, a large picture of the present Minister of Highways with his mustache po inting, as Lord Kitchener once did , saying "Fasten your seat belts." -- (Interje ction )- - No , that's in water, that's not on land . There would have to be, and he could have used that same picture from his highway maps and blanket the province with his face although , Mr . Speaker , I tremble in thinking of that prospect , it could discourage tourism. So we would have to weigh that from both points of view. Mr .

Speaker, the Saskatchewan Gove rnment, I think, took a very intelligent approach and they introduced not just this legislation but a package of what they called safety initiatives and in so doing , I think broke ground and also made the whole thing more palatable and more understandable to the people of that province. Now, when it comes to enforcem ent, there again, I think there is a requi rement for a gradual eas ing in and that there is no need for some heavy handed crackdown to start the programming . I would like to reco mmend to members the Saskatchewan program because I think it is possibly the best.

In the Saskatchewan model their law applies only to the front seat occupants who are over the age of five years or who weight 50 pounds or more . I guess they require people up to the age of 16, the driver is respon sible for those from five to 16 years of age , in terms of responsible for them being buckled up . I think in some provinces the driver is req uired to say to his pas sengers that it is the law that you should use your seat belt, etc. There are exemptions , Mr . Speaker , and I think this will be of particular interest to members opposi te.

I believe that all provinces have similar legisla tion and some of the wording is identical and this appl ies to all aspe cts of this quest ion. Exemptions in Saskatchewan , as a typical examp le , have been provided for persons with medical certificates signed by a ph ysician, for certain delivery personnel who are in and out of vans , etc., and for -- (Interje ction )- - Now , the member is confusing me and affecting my spee ch. And for persons travelling in rever se . That's kind of an interesting omi ssion. They also have exemptions , Mr .

Speaker, for -- (Interje ction)- - We ll, you know, I have to point out to the Member for Rock Lake that the Conserva tives are the people who often look in the rearview mirror , aren 't they ; they are always looking behind them, always looking into the past. Mr . Speaker , police officers when transporting a prison er , that's an exemption, where there is no mechanism in that instance provided for the protection of the driver - that will be of interest to the Attorney-Gener al , Mr .

Law and Order - for cab drive rs , while accompanied by a fare ; and for driving instructors and examiners who , while accompanying a student driver, may be required to take control of the vehicle. So those are some exemptions. Mr . Speaker , one of the most interesting things is to see the change in public opinion . Those figures, I think, are very startling because I'm sure if you took a poll today , you would find out that four or five people out of 10 would be in - 1927 -

Tuesd ay , 1 Apr il, 198 0 favour and so some people would say , we ll, you know , it's not enough people , I'm a politician and if we bring this in I'll get killed at the polls and therefore I can 't support it, or I talked to somebody and he said he didn 't like it and the other said he liked it, so it's evently split. That's usually the way that it starts. But after , I think, a short period of time, public opinion begins to accept this measure and begins to increase sharply .

I point out that in the case of Saskatchewan , again, it started out with less than 50 percent, 54 percent , and then moved up to 60 per cen t . In April 1977 , 54 percent - I guess the Minister of Highways has these figures - it went up to 60 percent in November , to 64 percent the fol lowing April, and in a year and a ha lf it was up to 75 percent . I think some of my friends on the other side who are farmers or who represent rural ridings, they will feel some reluctance to support this measure .

I give them the Saskatchewan experience where in April of 1977, 44 percent of farmers favored it but by November , 55 percent of farmers favored it; by April of 1978 , 67 percent , two out of three ••• MR . SPEAK ER : Order please . The honourable member has five min utes . MR . DOER N: Thank you , Mr . Speaker . And 68 .9 percent by August. So the farmers had the distinction of being the least enthusiastic but I also point out that approximately 69 percent were in favor ; 28 percent against; and 2 or 3 per cent undec ided . Mr . Speak er, in terms of accident reduc tions.

There was a question ; I didn't hear it. -- (Interje ction )- - I am always suspicious , Mr . Speak er , of my friend from Rock Lake . I can't consider him a farme r. I just don't visualize him out there . He is wearing his fine clothing. I don 't know if he has white cotton, 100 percent cotton overa lls and an air conditioned cab and all that sort of stuff , hi- fi in his tractor , but I find it hard to imagine that. MR . SPEAK ER : The Honour able Member for Rock Lake on a point of order . MR . EINARS ON: Mr. Speaker , I rise on a point of ord er.

Is the Member for Elmwood is trying to tell me that I am not a farmer by private trade? MR . DOERN: I apologize . I named the wrong member. I meant the Minister of Government Services. I was re ferring to him. I'm not going to make any guesses about the Member for Rock Lake . I see him as a God-fearing farmer . That's how I see him. In fact, I have never told him this, but I do see him sort of as the John Wayne of the Legislature , a big tall -- (Interjections )- - He rides high in the sadd le. And he would be advised to wear a seatbelt in case he forgot how to ride a horse and might fall off. You can see , Mr .

Speaker , that I am from the urban part of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker , I point out that in Saskatchewan, in a 12- month period , there was a 9 percent reduction in vehicle occupant injuries and a 19 .5 percent vehicle occupant death reduc tion, at the same time that there was a 10 percent increase . Mr . Speak er, I am running out of time so I will attempt to wrap up by saying that seat belts will not solve all problems . The fact that a person wears a seat belt will not ensure that he saves his life , that they are most effective in roll overs and in head-in and front-angled collisions.

I remind members that there are many mandatory safety measures in our society: safety glass es, safety shoes , hard hats, life preserve rs, airplane seat belts, which is the commonest. The time has come for the introduction of compulsory seatbelt legislation in our province.

This would be another step in the evolution of health and safety measures that will benefit all of our citizens , including the taxpayer , and I expect particular support from the Minister of Health ; from the Minister responsible for Autopac; from the Minister of Highways ; from most members of the Progressive Conservative Party ; from most members of the New Democratic Party ; from at least one Liberal , and from one Independent New Democrat. The debate should be beneficial and of educational value • MR . SPEAKER : Order please . The honoura ble member 's time is up. MR .

SPEAK ER : The Honoura ble Minister of Transp ortation. - 1928 -

Tuesday , 1 April, 1980 MR . ORCHA RD: Thank you , Mr . Speaker. MR . DOERN: Mr . Speak er, may I ask again, do I have leave? MR . SPEAKER : Order please . I heard a distinct "no . 11 The Honourable Minister of Transpo rtation. MR . ORCHA RD: Thank you , Mr . Speaker . The Member for Elmwood has intro duced a resolution which is near and dear to the hearts of many of us. At the outset of debate on this resolution I want to make it eminently clear , Mr . Speak er , that I have no built-in biases , pro or con , against the use of seatbelts.

My personal experience with seatbelts has been from a user standpoint since 1967 , and particularly in the time of 1968 to 1973 when I travelled extensively I was a regular user of seatbelts. And from 1973 on , I became an irregular of seatbelts as I drove less on our highway s. So , Mr . Speaker, I have no built-in biases as to whether people should or should not use seatbelts, and persona lly use them upon occasion my self. Now, I want to deal speci fically with the Member for Elmwood 's resolution and I have to take issue with the first clause in the resol ution, Mr .

Speaker , because I don't believe the first clause is a correct assumption that the wearing of seat belts will reduce the de gree of automobile accidents. I don 't believe that state ment, Mr . Speak er, is corr ect, possibly that it would reduce the degree of inj ury may have been a better way to open the resolution. I do believe that that degree of automobile accidents is not a correct statement, Mr . Speaker. We do have a number of organizations who are supportive of compulsory seat belt legislation in the province, as proposed in this resolut ion.

They are organized groups in the health care field and some of them are in the safety field and they have presented their views to various administrations from time to time . We also have , Mr . Speaker , a group of people who are not so well organized , who are prob ably as violently opposed to the compulsory use of seat belts as are the organiza tions who are promoting such legislation. There are a number of jurisdictions, as the Member for Elmwood pointed out, that have seat belt legislation. Some four provinces do : Ontario, Quebec , Saskat chewan , and British Columbia.

And they brought that legislation in from a time period of January lst, 1976 until September lst, 1977 . Now many of the discussions on seat belts, Mr . Speaker , have involved the use of various statistics which are presented to justify and in fact give credibility to compulsory seat belt legislation. And , Mr . Speaker, I think it's only fair to point out that these statistics, although they are presented in all good faith, do not necessarily tell the complet

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-4-29a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 4th hansardpdf 29a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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