March 21,

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS

Vol. XLI No. 13

The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Lush): Order, please!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I am announcing today various

changes in the executive level of the Public Service. These changes have come

about largely as a result of the current exercise to downsize the Public Service

in accordance with the decisions announced in the Budget. At the same time there

has been a general review of the assignment of executive staff responsibilities.

The following new appointments at the executive level have been made. And here,

I must say, it is not appointing new people, it is rearranging people holding

existing positions.

Deborah Fry, who is presently ADM in the Department of

Justice on the Civil side, will become the Deputy Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations. Ms. Fry was most recently Associate Deputy Minister of Justice

and has previously held the position of Assistant Deputy Minister in the

Department of Labour.

Lynn Spracklin will become Deputy Minister of Justice. Ms.

Spracklin has in excess of twenty years at the Bar in Newfoundland and has

extensive experience in private practice as well as a number of years as Senior

Solicitor in the Department of Justice. That combination, Mr. Speaker, will

serve her well in that new position.

Clarence Randell will become the Deputy Minister of Municipal

and Provincial Affairs. Mr. Randell is a long serving Deputy Minister in the

Public Service and most recently served as Deputy Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations. Mr. Randell has extensive service in the field of municipal

government, including a previous period as Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs.

Bruce Peckford becomes the Deputy Minister of Social

Services. Mr. Peckford is a long time public servant and has held a number of

senior positions, the most recent of which has been Acting Deputy Minister,

Works, Services and Transportation.

Elizabeth Marshall becomes Deputy Minister of Works, Services

and Transportation.

Ms. Marshall was previously a Deputy Minister of Social

Services. She has held the position of Assistant Deputy Minister in the former

Department of Transportation.

Frank Manuel takes on a position presently held by two other

individuals; The Chairman of the Canada Games Park Commission, Chairman of the

Pippy Park Commission and Chairman of the St. John's Area Residential Tenancies

Board. He will discharge all three of these responsibilities.

Mr. Manuel was formerly the Deputy Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs and has over the years served as Deputy Minister in several

governmental departments.

Through the downsizing exercise some nine positions, mostly

at the Assistant Deputy Minister level have been declared redundant and the

individuals in these positions have been so advised.

Mr. Speaker, these changes will result in the employment of a

number of executives being terminated with Government. The individuals affected

have given many long years of good service to the people of this Province.

On behalf of the people of the Province and the Government, I

want to acknowledge these many years of service and express our appreciation and

best wishes to the individuals concerned.

It has been a very difficult decision to have to terminate

the employment of these senior executives at this time. However, if Government

is to meet its overall expenditure reduction target as announced in the Budget,

all levels of the Public Service must be considered.

In preparing the Statement, I apologise to the Opposition

Leader or the Opposition House Leader, whoever will speak on the issue, that

there were two ADM appointments that I had overlooked including in the

Statement.

In the case of Justice, to fill the vacancy created by the

promotion of Debbie Fry to Deputy Minister of Employment and Labour Relations,

we are appointing John Cummings, who is a senior legal council in the

Department, and has in fact in the past, held a position of Assistant Deputy

Minister and he will again be appointed as Assistant Deputy Minister on the

civil side in the Department of Justice.

In Social Services, some two or three weeks ago, I received a

resignation from Mr. Calvin Payne, who expressed his desire to retire at this

time and we had not filled the position until now, and we now propose to appoint

or to promote Mr. Noel Browne, who is a senior director in the Department of

Social Services. We propose to appoint him to become the Assistant Deputy

Minister in place of Mr. Payne. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank the Premier

for a copy of the statement. In the absence of the Leader of the Opposition I

will try to make some remarks about what has transpired here. I sure hope that

the enthusiastic response to the appointment of Noel Browne does not place his

position in any jeopardy in the eyes of the Minister of Social Services.

Mr. Speaker, what we see here, of course, are long time

career civil servants who have worked their way up through the system and done

an extremely good job over the years. They have, I guess, given a lot of public

service to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. Their efforts and their work

continues to be recognized because I would be remiss if I did not point out that

some of them had received some promotions earlier under the previous

administration. So they are excellent, career minded public servants, unlike

some of the other senior executive positions that we have seen appointed by this

Premier and this Government. I refer specifically to Mr. Tulk, Mr. Chalker, and

Fraser Lush, people of that nature who have not actually worked their way up

through the public service as the Premier would admit.

We commend the Government on the appointment of three women

Deputy Ministers. We commend them for that. I think that is an excellent move.

As a matter of fact, there are really only two new ones because Ms. Marshall was

a Deputy Minister before, but we commend them for that, but point out, of

course, on the other hand that while they are doing something commendable on the

one hand for women in the public service, the women of our Province continue to

be the ones who suffer the most as a result of the Government's economic

cutbacks. We all know that, and they are taking the brunt of the layoffs without

any question.

Mr. Speaker, we would like to know who the 'redundants' are.

The Premier makes passing reference in the statement to, 'nine positions have

been declared redundant'. Strangely enough that has not been identified in the

statement. We would like to know who the redundants are, and at the same time we

would expect to hear fairly soon the fate of the other 80 or 90, presumably 80

or 90, according to news reports, shall we say management positions in the

public service that are expected to be eliminated as a result of the

Government's actions. So, the reassignments are good news, and I might say from

a personal point of view that I think with one exception I know all of them

personally and have dealt with them over the years, and they are extremely

capable individuals. We want to congratulate them on these appointments and wish

them well in their new positions. And we continue to wait with bated breath for

the next

chapter in the continuing saga of this Government's economic

mismanagement plans.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, on March 21, 1960, seventy

peaceful demonstrators against apartheid were killed in Sharpeville, South

Africa. In 1966, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution

proclaiming March 21, today, as The International Day for the Elimination of

Racial Discrimination. While the situation in many countries is slowly improving

because of internal and external pressures, it is still easy today to find

examples of racial discrimination in almost every country in the world,

including Canada.

The recent annual report of the Canadian Human Rights

Commission stated that the number of complaints to the Human Rights Commission

increased by almost 10 per cent last year. The report said that racism and

bigotry are `alive and well' in public and private sector workplaces across the

country. I believe, however, that the elimination of racial discrimination can

become a reality through education.

Mr. Speaker, the Department of Education has a vital role to

play in human rights and multicultural education. Last year the Department

introduced two major units on this topic in a senior high school social studies

course. The Department of Education has also supported the Newfoundland and

Labrador Human Rights Association in its initiatives at the school level. This

year, we again helped organize a local conference on cross-cultural

understanding which, by the way, is taking place today. I had the pleasure of

attending that conference and speaking over the lunch period.

Discussions are being held with officials of the Faculty of

Education, Memorial University, regarding the role of that Faculty in the area

of human rights and multicultural education. In addition, the Department is

pleased to be a partner with the NTA and with other agencies in a Global

Education project, designed, among other things, to promote cross-cultural

understanding in this Province.

Mr. Speaker, last year the Department established a

Multicultural Education Committee, made up of educators and members of the local

multicultural organizations. There are two terms of reference for this

Committee: One, to examine the status of multicultural policy in provincial

Departments of Education across Canada; and two, through consultation with the

local groups concerned, to draft a provincial multicultural policy for the

Department of Education

of this Province.

I am very pleased, Mr Speaker, today, to say that a draft

copy of this policy is now ready for distribution to school boards and agencies

for their comments and input. I have some copies here for hon. Members who might

like to see a copy of that draft.

The establishment of an educational policy in

multiculturalism for this Province is an important step. It will ensure that all

texts and curriculum materials are examined so that prejudicial stereotypes and

racism are eliminated; that curriculum materials provide positive images of all

racial and ethnic groups; and that the schools themselves recognize, respect and

respond to the cultural needs and values of their total student population. The

policy will ensure that we recognize the unique position and contribution of our

aboriginal peoples and the reality of the linguistic duality of Canada.

Generally, Mr. Speaker, a multicultural education policy should promote cultural

understanding and facilitate cultural accommodation.

Mr. Speaker, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador and

the Department of Education are committed to multicultural education and

recognize it as a vehicle to help eliminate racial discrimination. Thank you

very much, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East.

MS. VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I commend the Minister

of Education for making the statement he just did to observe The International

Day for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination in our Legislature. I also

praise him and his Department for the initiatives they have taken to strengthen

human rights education.

I call on him and his colleagues to carry out certain other

initiatives. For example, to reverse the extremely regressive measures in the

Budget they just brought down, which are taking a terrible toll on women in this

Province and people in rural parts Newfoundland and Labrador.

I call on the Premier, Mr. Speaker, to have a day for the

elimination of discrimination against rural Newfoundland and Labrador, a day on

which he will throw out the backward, regressive measures in his Budget and stop

the move to continue resettlement, which the Liberals started in the 1960s.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for

the Minister of Labour. I wonder if the Minister could tell the House whether

she was aware, or in addition to whether she was aware or not, was she consulted

on the decision by Newfoundland Telephone to lay off twenty employees in Goose

Bay who are involved in operator services and move the operations of operator

services in Labrador to the city of Corner Brook? Was she aware of that and was

she consulted, particularly with respect to the fact that unemployment in Goose

Bay will be aggravated by this, and that in this case twenty employees who are

all women, six of whom are single parents, will be laid off.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations.

MS. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have been made aware

of the situation through my colleague, the Minister of Environment and Lands,

not by the company. I am not sure if that is what you were asking - was it? The

company I have not heard from, Mr. Speaker. But I had been told about the matter

by my colleague, and have had opportunity to discuss it further with individuals

who are involved.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, as a supplementary to whomever

can answer this, perhaps the Minister of Transportation, is the Government aware

that the removal of this service in Labrador without any adequate backup system

could result in a shutdown of communications anywhere on the coast of Labrador,

from Cartwright north to the farther most community, and that on a number of

occasions in the recent past the system has been shut down, cutting off

communications in Labrador? And there will be no system to replace that.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and

Lands.

MR. KELLAND: On behalf of my colleagues, I can make some

response to that. I became aware of the layoffs in the Happy Valley-Goose Bay

office the day before the actual announcement was made. I was in contact with

the company, I have discussed it in some detail with the company. I have also,

on the past weekend, met with the union and the people affected and have

requested some technical information with respect to backup, and have a very

good understanding of exactly what happens.

Probably the most affected area other than the loss of

employment may very well be the north coast, the north system that feeds down

from my colleague, the Member for Torngat Mountains' District, whereby if you do

not have the Goose Bay setup as a backup, all these calls from the coast,

communications from the coast, would be directed into Corner Brook. And in the

event of a failure in any one of sites along that chain, there may very well be

no backup with the considerable time required to get the service back in, or

provide an alternate route.

I have asked for the technical information on that and I

should have it to make available to my two colleagues in the very near future.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, I wonder could the Premier or

the Minister responsible, or used to be responsible for the Public Utilities

Commission, and with respect to the coverage of Newfoundland Telephone, advise

what role the Government of Newfoundland is now playing now that the CRTC has

responsibility for the regulation of phone companies? Do they have an active

program of intervention in the applications before the CRTC as they have in the

National Energy Board and other national boards where Newfoundlands interests

are protected? Is there a special role they are going to play, and can they do

something about this particular problem?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, it was not that long ago that

it was done, but the Government will monitor what has been happening and the

manner in which the CRTC will be regulating Newfoundland Telephone and the

administration of telephones in the Province. We will also have in place a

consumer advocate who will have a role to play before the CRTC to protect the

interest of consumers in the Province and make arguments. Where it is necessary

the Government itself can, of course, intervene and appear before the CRTC in

the course of regulation.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. POWER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the

Minister of Health, Mr. Speaker. Each day in this Province we are being assailed

by reports of unrest by all who are involved in the health care system, and this

unrest comes from health care professionals, health administrators, unions,

concerned citizens, and groups around this Province. Everyone seems to

acknowledge that there is a problem except the Minister and his colleagues.

Today there are reports, and of course they are not new reports, but today some

of them are being made public: that some of our most highly skilled health care

professionals, our doctors, will be leaving this Province. Would the Minister

confirm that the combination of reduced acute care beds, 1,000 less supportive

staff, longer waiting periods at hospitals, a cap on MCP funding are all going

to contribute to an exodus of general practitioners and specialists from this

Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not prepared to confirm

that. There are a whole lot of factors which determine whether or not people

move from one part of the country to the other. I should advise the hon. Member

that every single Province in this nation has exactly the same problems we have.

There is a problem with the economy in all of the provinces, and I do not

foresee an exodus of doctors out of the Province.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. If there is not

going to be an exodus of health care professionals from this Province, will the

Minister confirm that there has been a mass influx of health care professionals

from outside this Province coming into the Province since the Minister announced

his wonderful improvements in health care?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I would certainly hope not. The

hon. Member should realize that at this moment we have a surplus of general

practitioners in the St. John's area. We have one GP for every 550 people, Mr.

Speaker, which is really too many GPs for this region. The problem in this

Province is not with the number of doctors, it is with distribution. We have

problems attracting doctors to outlying regions of the Province, Mr. Speaker,

and that problem is shared by other provinces as well. I should tell the hon.

Member, and he will be pleased to know this, that we are at this moment in

co-operation with the Newfoundland Medical Association and with the medical

schools, trying to address that problem where we can solve the distribution

problem. It is not a supply, it is a distribution problem.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the Minister

of Health. I am glad to see he is finally confirming what the Opposition has

been saying, that if you want good health care in this Province, you had better

live in one of the urban centres; you are not going to get it in rural

Newfoundland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. POWER: Would the Minister wish to confirm or give us

some numbers on how many highly trained and experienced nurses will leave this

Province in the next twelve months? Does the Minister have any figures on how

many of the nursing graduates from our schools of nursing are going to leave

this Province? Why is there a lot of advertising in this Province in recent days

relating to new health opportunities for nurses in New Brunswick, the Northwest

Territories, and other provinces in Canada, Florida and as far away as Saudi

Arabia? Will the Minister confirm that the recent announced cutbacks are going

to lead to a mass exodus of nurses from this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, that is a litany of questions

and if he had slowed down I could have written them all down. I do not have the

capacity to memorize them all. I should tell him, however: the hon. Member makes

the assumption that our problems in rural Newfoundland are somehow worse now

than they were a few years ago. We have actually improved the distribution. The

hon. Member will know that for the first time in the history of mankind we have

attracted a doctor for Forteau, Mr. Speaker. Never before in the history of the

world was there a doctor stationed in Forteau. We have appointed one there.

The hon. Member will know for the first time in the history

of the world, we have a third doctor in Roddickton, Mr. Speaker, which happens

to be in my District and I am proud of it. Mr. Speaker, we are not as bad off as

we were three years ago. And if we continue with restructuring and streamlining

the system and matching peoples capabilities with the requirements in the areas

I believe we are going to see a big improvement in the distribution of doctors

throughout the Province.

The advertisements for nurses throughout North America, Mr.

Speaker, has been going on for the last twenty-five years. I think you will find

that the advertisement for Florida is simply the same one that was put in last

year and the year before and the year before that. It is going on. And if the

hon. Member is not aware of what is happening in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait he must

be living in a dream world. Saudi Arabia and Kuwait have been advertising for

nurses and doctors and engineers and charworkers and laundry workers, Mr.

Speaker, that is what is happening in the world.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland, a final

supplementary.

MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, if there is anybody living in a

dream world in this Province it is the Minister of Health and his Minister

colleagues.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. POWER: And that is where the dream world lies.

Mr. Speaker, I will ask another question to the Minister of

Health to see if he can answer this question honestly and straightforwardly.

Will the Minister confirm that serious discussions have taken place and are

currently taking place as it relates to the closing of one or more of the

Schools of Nursing in this Province? And will he also confirm that there is a

deliberate plan to downgrade health care educational opportunities in the

registered nursing assistants field, in lab and x-ray in this Province, and that

is based upon the fact that there are less opportunities for health care

professionals in this Province?

AN HON. MEMBER: A good question.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I am glad, pleased to confirm

that there have been very serious talks to all three nursing schools in this

Province about bringing them together under one or two institutions. I am glad

to tell that, Mr. Speaker, because that is a step in the right direction. But I

read that slightly different, diametrically different from the way the hon.

Member sees it, I see that as an upgrading, Mr. Speaker, of nurses training in

this Province.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. DECKER: I suppose it depends on from where you look,

two men looked out through their prison bars one saw mud and the other saw

stars. It is all perception, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East.

MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier. I

would like to ask the Premier whether in closing the hospital at Burgeo, in

virtually eliminating the in-service patient care at the hospital at Port aux

Basques, in closing the hospitals at Bonne Bay, Baie Verte and Springdale, he is

expecting people from all those areas to use Western Memorial Regional Hospital

at Corner Brook for acute care and in-patient services? And if so, did he not

take into account the fact that Western Memorial at Corner Brook has been

stretched to its limit, has had to close the surgical intensive care unit within

the past year? And why did he and his Government reduce funding to Western

Memorial, necessitating the closure of thirty more beds and the elimination of

seventy positions?

MR. SIMMS: A good question.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I am going to have to sit down

with the hon. Member for Humber East and explain to her just what is happening

in the health care system. When we attempted to restructure the health care

system, we wanted to make sure that there were certain services available to all

of our people in the various regions of the Province. And one of the things that

we decided to do is to make sure that there is in the western region a regional

health care centre, a regional hospital which is capable of dealing with most of

the needs of the people who live in that area.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. DECKER: Yes, the tertiary stuff has to come to St.

John's. It has not changed from when you were here. Not one iota has that

changed. That has not changed.

Now, Mr. Speaker, we are developing a regional hospital in

Corner Brook.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. DECKER: The hon. Member will also notice that we have

changed the mandate out in Bonne Bay, which means that the Bonne Bay Hospital

will now be specializing in chronic care. This will free up the twenty-five or

thirty beds which have been occupied in Corner Brook by chronic care over a

number of years. We are also, Mr. Speaker, putting a chronic care facility in

Burgeo. Now we cannot built it in a split second. It is going to take us a year

or two to build it. But that likewise will take some of the strain off the

facility in Corner Brook, and we might be able to take even a few more beds out

of the Corner Brook area if we find that they are underutilized, Mr. Speaker.

The mistake the hon. Members are making is, they are looking

at the individual places. They should see the whole design. The good plan that

we have in mind for health care, the whole picture, the grand design, Mr.

Speaker. The hon. Members should look at that. And we are making sure that when

there is an acute case in the western region there is a hospital, there are

specialists, there is equipment there which can address these needs, Mr.

Speaker. And unless we restructure it will not happen.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East.

MS. VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Minister of Health

has just confirmed the worst fears of many people in the Corner Brook area, an

area which the Premier is supposed to be representing in this House of Assembly.

There are at least thirty people from the immediate Corner Brook area-

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The hon.

Member is on a supplementary, not on a debate. Get to the supplementary please.

MS. VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Minister

confirm that he is going to force Corner Brook area citizens, who are occupying

acute care beds at Western Memorial Regional Hospital in Corner Brook, who are

waiting for chronic care beds at the O'Connel Centre in Corner Brook, to go

outside their home area to be resettled to Bonne Bay or Burgeo or Eastern

Newfoundland, since he is closing thirty more acute care beds at Western

Memorial and added demands -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

MS. VERGE: - are being put on that facility.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The Hon. Member should get more quickly to the question. It

is more like reading a speech.

Would the Hon. Member, please finish up.

MS. VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I asked my question, I

am finished with my question and now I will wait for the Minister's answer.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I just want to remind hon. Members that the Speaker's

decision regarding Question Period are not debatable and the Chair intends to

enforce that.

The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, the health care system that we

inherited saw people in Agnes Pratt Home from Forteau in Labrador. The system

that we inherited, Mr. Speaker, saw people in Hoyles-Escasoni from the West

Coast of this Province. The hon. Member talks about resettlement, I would

suggest she get her facts in order and see what we inherited in the health care

system.

Now we are endeavouring to keep people as close to their

homes as we possibly can. Mr. Speaker, not very long ago, I heard my friend from

Eagle River tell how his uncle in Forteau, his uncle in Forteau, when he got

old, wanted a place to go to and they moved him up to Goose Bay, where, he was

totally removed from his family; we are trying to ensure that that is not going

to happen again and we are building ten chronic care beds on the health care

centre in Forteau, Mr. Speaker, so the hon. Member need not try to make

political points on me, trying to get me to take sides with Bonne Bay over

Corner Brook.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. DECKER: We would like all our senior citizens to be

in homes which are near where they lived and grew up and where their families

are, Mr. Speaker -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

MR. DECKER: - but we cannot do it overnight.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Humber East.

MS. VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If the Minister of

Health and the Government really want to centralize hospital services and place

chronic care patients in their home area, why is he closing thirty more beds at

Western Memorial Regional Hospital in Corner Brook?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, among the beds which were closed

in Corner Brook, some of them are pediatric beds which were closed because we

were able to double up some departments and I am glad to be able to say we are

able to close pediatric beds, Mr. Speaker. We are closing a total twelve bed

unit in the Curtis Memorial Hospital. Why? Because it was underutilized, that is

why, Mr. Speaker, and that is a good reason to close beds, because it shows that

the Public Health System in this Province is working. It shows that vaccinations

are working, it shows that we do have a preventive care system in place, Mr.

Speaker, and I am glad to say, that of the thirty beds closed in the Western

Memorial, some of them were underutilized, that is why they are closed. What we

are doing is restructuring and we are putting into place a system which is

better and the hon. Member does not like that; they want us to fail in this

system but we are restructuring the system, Mr. Speaker, and this is about

saving the health care system, this is about saving the health care system; this

is guaranteeing the medicare system, Mr. Speaker, that is what this is all about

and that is why Members on this side are so glad to be a part of that and the

hon. Member is jealous, is jealous because -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

MR. DECKER: - she never had the foresight to do it when

she was on this side of the House.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is also to the Minister of Health. In view of the

fact that Government has cut funding approximately $3 million to the Western

Memorial Hospital in Corner Brook, and because of this they have now announced

the complete closing of the X-ray unit in Deer Lake, and the Laboratory unit in

Deer Lake will be cut to just collection only, absolutely no testing, does the

Minister still believe that this is rationalization of the health care sector?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, it is certainly rationalization.

I do not know how you could interpret it otherwise. Whether or not you agree

with doing it is a totally different topic, but it certainly is rationalization.

Yes.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley.

MR. WOODFORD: How can the Minister, or the Government,

close down an X-ray unit in Deer Lake that is doing 3500 to 3700 X-rays a year

and still say it is going to provide a better service, while cutting this out

and moving it to Corner Brook, at the same time lay off four or five X-ray

technicians at Western Memorial Hospital in Corner Brook?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, we inherited a health care

system which was badly mismanaged.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I have to give some background

before I answer the question. We inherited a system, Mr. Speaker, which was

badly mismanaged. We inherited a made in Canada recession. We inherited transfer

payments which were frozen, and which would disappear by the year 2004. We

inherited a debt of $535 million in interest payments, the same amount of money

that we pay on the hospital system of this Province. We pay the same amount to

pay the interest, by the debt which was run up by the previous administration.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

When one gets into philosophical questions about policy they

can become involved so I ask the Minister to please try and make his answer as

precise as possible and clue it up very quickly.

MR. DECKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have to try and put these questions into perspective.

Because of all these things it was necessary for us to streamline and

rationalize the system. The hon. Member will know that some of those positions

he referred to are full-time equivalent positions, some of them were not even

filled before we rationalized the system.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley.

MR. WOODFORD: How can the Minister say there will be

savings when, for example, any social service recipient in the White Bay or

Bonne Bay area will have to be paid for transportation to and from Corner Brook,

and would the Minister now explain how, after performing such major cuts, such

major surgery on the hospital in Corner Brook, that this would be an improved

service for the people of that area?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, during the last few months when

the Opposition over there were scampering and screaming because we were too long

making our decisions, we were going through all the implications of the

decisions we were going to make, and one of the things we had to consider was

the impact, if any, that a decision in the Department of Health would have on

social services, or transportation, or education, or any other Department of

Government. When we made our decisions to make alterations in various

institutions, change some roles, we took into account that this might have an

impact on the social services budget, and all these expenses are factored in to

our decision, Mr. Speaker.'

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port au Port.

MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the

Minister of Health. Concerning the cutbacks at the Port aux Basques hospital,

how can the Minister of Health maintain the position that the elimination of

acute care beds at the Port aux Basques hospital is, to quote from the Budget,

consistent with the Department of Health's long-term strategy for the health

care system when the bed study recommends that it retain twenty acute care beds?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, the bed study was done six or

seven years ago. The Department of Health has records which show us the

utilization for all the beds in all the institutions throughout the Province,

and in our estimation the number of acute care beds that we are making available

in the Port aux Basques area will be satisfactory to meet the needs of the

people in the area.

The decision to remove surgery is in keeping with our

decision to remove surgery out of the Baie Verte area, out of different areas of

the Province. The way medicine is progressing it is essential now that surgery

be performed by surgeons in regional hospitals, where you have all the necessary

backup to make sure that nothing can go wrong, as much as you guarantee that in

any surgical procedure, Mr. Speaker. So to remove surgery from there is in

keeping with our policy to put surgery into regional centres with surgeons who

have all the necessary backup. As a result of that role change for the Port aux

Basques area, we believe it is not now necessary to keep twenty acute care beds

there.

However, if we see tomorrow, if it is proven to us that we

need 500 beds in the area, we will do our utmost to make sure that there are 500

beds. In this exercise we are trying to match the institution with the need, Mr.

Speaker. We do not want to have too few beds or too many beds. We try to match

the reality with the need.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port au Port.

MR. HODDER: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I would like to point out

to the Minister that there was a high occupancy rate of acute care beds in Port

aux Basques.

I would like to ask the Minister why is he following the

study when it applies to the hospital in his own district but ignoring the

health care study when it applies to other hospitals, such as Port aux Basques

and other hospitals in the Province? And does the Minister agree with the Member

for LaPoile, who stated on a Nightline programme, that he agreed with the

people of Port aux Basques, with the clear implication that the Government was

wrong?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I wish hon. Members of the

Opposition would get their act together. A little over a week ago, the health

critic on the other side was up saying I was not following the recommendations

of the Royal Commission and accusing me of not closing any beds in St. Anthony.

Now the hon. Member is criticising me because we are following the

recommendations, which means that we are closing forty-two beds. Mr. Speaker, I

almost get the impression that there is a political agenda over there and it has

nothing to do with health care whatsoever.

As for the hon. Member for LaPoile, the hon. Member for

LaPoile is doing a tremendous job of representing his constituentsa and the

people in that area should be proud they have such a Member in this House, who

can bring their concerns to this Department and to the Government, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port au Port.

MR. HODDER: Yes, Mr. Speaker. With all of those cutbacks,

can the Minister explain why his personal office vote was not reduced by 20 per

cent, like that of the budget for Port aux Basques? As a matter of fact, I might

point out that it increased by 10 per cent. At least that would have been

symbolic. And can he tell me why his personal travel budget has gone up 20 per

cent when, I might say, Mr. Speaker, he is going to have less hospitals to

visit?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I cannot verify whether these

statements are true or not. But I can tell the hon. Member that if they are

true, the travel I have done on behalf of the Department of Health was

justified, it was needed, and I can substantiate it. I have not yet gone to

Norway, I have not yet spent a night in England, in a Pink Poodle or whatever it

is called, so, Mr. Speaker -

MR. SIMMS: Perhaps you should. You might learn something!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Grand Bank.

MR. SIMMS: Ask your seatmate, the Minister of

Development! Has he been there? Of course he has!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My

question, as well, is for the Minister of Health, a gentleman who, when he was

in Opposition, was quite often referred to as "Dagger Decker." Now we call him

"Sortie Chris", because the coalition forces did not do as much damage in a

sortie as he did to hospitals and home care in this Province in the last week. I

would like to ask the Minister, because of his rationalization and sending

people to regional health care centres, closing down acute care beds in rural

Newfoundland, does the Minister realize that what he is doing is imposing

additional expenses on Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who will now have to

travel to his regional centres and will have to seek accommodation in the

communities where the regional centres are located? Pregnant women who will have

to go a week or two in advance of delivery dates will need accommodations.

So I am asking the Minister, will he seriously give

consideration to taking measures to assist those he is forcing to travel in this

Province for medical attention? Will he consider very seriously the provision of

hostels so that people can go and be accommodated when they have to wait for

health care? Would the Minister and the Premier give serious consideration to

this request? Or will their Easter message to the thousands of rural

Newfoundlanders out and about our Province be the same as their Easter message

to the thousands of public servants who have gotten the axe, "Happy

Crucifixion"?

AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member probably does

not understand what is happening to this major restructuring of the health care

system and that is why he is not as proud of it as I am. He talks about extra

expenses to people who live in any area of the Province, and let me take Cook's

Harbour. Now for 95 per cent of the people, 95 per cent of the time their health

care needs are available in the primary care level one community health care

centres within an hour of where they live. That is where we are trying to aim.

Now that is not all over the Province; we are trying to get it in parts of

Labrador and on parts of the south coast. So there is nothing changed as far as

primary care goes, there is nothing changed as far as secondary care goes.

Five years ago, a person living in Mose Ambrose who needed

heart surgery had to come to St. John's. Two years ago, a person who lived in

Burgeo who had to have a gallbladder operated on had to go to Corner Brook.

Nothing has changed. All we have done with the system, Mr. Speaker, is look

through the various hospitals where there were underutilized beds and we have

changed the role of these institutions to reflect what they were really doing.

The extra expense on people is no different. You are no different today if you

get a heart attack in Conche than you were last year, or the year before, or ten

years ago. All we are trying to do is make primary care available in a more

efficient way and in a better manner, Mr. Speaker. We are restructuring the

system, and I am proud of it.

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has expired.

Orders of the Day

MR. BAKER: Order 2, Mr. Speaker. Interim Supply.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, I have received a message from

His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor.

MR. SPEAKER: A telegram to the Hon. the Minister of

Finance. "I, the Lieutenant-Governor of the Province of Newfoundland, transmit

estimates required for the Public Service of the Province for the year ending

31st. day of March 1992, by way of Interim Supply and in accordance with the

provisions of the Constitution Act 1867, I recommend these Estimates to the

House of Assembly.

Sgd.________________________

Lieutenant-Governor."

The hon. the Minister of Finance.

DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, I move that the Message,

together with a bill be referred to the Committee of Supply.

On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of

Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.

Committee of Supply

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Finance.

Resolution

That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for

the granting to Her Majesty for defraying certain expenses of the public service

for the financial year ending March 31, 1992, the sum of $993,139,500.

DR. KITCHEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In introducing this

bill for Interim Supply we are looking for an amount of money that will last us

for approximately three months, while we are waiting for the main supply bill to

be passed. The amount of money that is shown in the

schedule to the bill is $993

million approximately, divided up amongst the various Government Departments. I

should say, Mr. Chairman, that Interim Supply is basically intended to provide

for the continuation of ongoing Government programs and projects.

There are, however, some new capital account and current

account expenditures, and I would like to mention these. One is an amount of $80

million approximately for the Federal/Provincial Road/Bridge Program. And there

is a $25.5 million amount for the Provincial Road/Bridge Program; and an amount

of $4.9 million for the Canada/Newfoundland Tourism and Historic Resources

Agreement which is contingent upon the signing of a new agreement - $4.9

million, that is in Interim Supply.

We very much look forward to having this amount of money

approved by the House, so that we can be sure when the new year begins we will

have enough money to handle the ongoing items of business while we are waiting

for the main Supply Bill to be passed.

If there are questions that people have, Mr. Chairman, I will

be glad to answer them at some point.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I will just make a few brief opening remarks, I guess, to get

this debate underway, and just to ensure that everybody is aware and remembers,

the Members on our side anyway, in our caucus, that the debate will take a ten

minute flow, a free-for-all, go as often as you want, no limit, except for at

the beginning where the Minister had fifteen minutes and took two, and I had

fifteen minutes. I would not likely use all fifteen minutes, normally I would

not anyway.

AN HON. MEMBER: Fourteen.

MR. SIMMS: Fourteen.

So the debating time is ten and ten, and I hope members from

both sides of the House will get up and participate, because up until this point

in time, this is the third week nearly now that the House has been sitting,

Members on this side of the House have frequently been up in debate. But Members

opposite, for some unusual and strange reason-

MR. POWER: The same reason, not allowed.

MR. SIMMS: - I mean, they have not stood at all. And a

great example was the debate the other day and the other night on Bill 16, one

of the most major pieces of legislation, I suppose, ever introduced into this

Legislature. Certainly one of the most draconian pieces of legislation, and

certainly one of the most controversial pieces of legislation.

And, Mr, Chairman, in the debate last Tuesday, I think it

was, we were forced into a night sitting, and had an additional three hours of

debate. And lo and behold you would expect Members opposite to get up and defend

the actions of the Government, support the actions of the President of Treasury

Board in bringing in that legislation. Yet, Mr. Chairman, I think seven Members

on this side of the House spoke, including the Member for St. John's East who

spoke on the amendment to defer the action for six months, the six month hoist

amendment. Seven on this side. One on that side, the Minister who introduced the

bill. Nobody else participated in the debate. Now, Mr. Chairman, I think that is

certainly shirking one's responsibility as an elected representative of the

people of the Province. And I am darn sure, in fact I know for a fact there are

Members on that side of the House, and I am looking at some of them, Members on

that side of the House who have heard from constituents who are going to be

affected by this wage rollback legislation, who have not had the intestinal

fortitude to stand in this House and defend the actions of the Government in the

debate, and Mr. Chairman, I think that is disgraceful. Your Honour would not be

included in my remarks, of course, because Your Honour has another role to play

in this Legislature, so that is to be understood and expected, although Your

Honour is not precluded from making such remarks if he so wishes. I hope that

the debate that is proceeding and beginning today, and will proceed for the next

week for sure, up until next Thursday, as I understand it in my discussions with

the President of Treasury Board, which will be the last day the House will open

before the end of the fiscal year.

AN HON. MEMBER: Holy Thursday?

MR. SIMMS: Holy Thursday. As I understand, the Government

House Leader tells me the House will sit Holy Thursday and Holy Thursday night,

and all the rest of it. In fact next week we will be sitting every night except

Wednesday - Monday, Tuesday and Thursday. I am sure Members opposite are well

aware of that by now, as certainly our Members are.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)

MR. SIMMS: Oh, your Members are not aware of it yet, well

certainly they are aware of it now because I just told them.

AN HON. MEMBER: They are aware of it.

MR. SIMMS: Members opposite know now. I dare say they are

aware of it. I am sure they are aware, but maybe the press is not aware, that

there is no Easter break from the Legislature as well, which is certainly

breaking with a tradition. We will have lots of time, do not worry. The Member

for Pleasantville can heckle me all he likes as we go on. I will be up many

times between now and the next four or five days debating Interim Supply. I

presume they are aware that there will be no Easter break and that is fine, if

that is the way Government wants to proceed it is up to themselves. It has no

bearing on us whatsoever, but it is certainly an unusual practice.

AN HON. MEMBER: That is the way the cockles crumble.

MR. SIMMS: Yes, it is the way the cockles crumble, there

is no doubt about it, as the Minister of Finance would say. So, Mr. Chairman, we

will have lots of time to debate Interim Supply, and in Interim Supply you can

talk about anything you like, I say to the Member. You do not have to confine

your remarks specifically to the Bill. Surely, he is no longer a rookie, he has

been in the Legislature now for two years and he touts himself as a

constitutional expert of some sort, one of the Premier's top constitutional

advisors, so he would surely be aware of the process. And in Interim Supply, it

being a money bill, it has been ruled for centuries that Members can speak about

anything under the sun, so I chose at the beginning, I say to the Member for

Pleasantville, I have said as much about this bill as the Minister of Finance

has said about it in his introduction. If the Member will recall the Minister of

Finance spoke for about two minutes. He mentioned a couple of Federal/Provincial

agreements and that was it, and he said: I look forward to the debate. Well, I

am saying the same thing, maybe it is taking me a bit longer to say it, but I am

saying the same thing.

MR. NOEL: (Inaudible)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

MR. SIMMS: Well, again, Mr. Chairman, I would have

thought that the Member for Pleasantville, that great constitutional expert,

would know. Is he so stunned that he did not know that the debate was started by

the Minister of Finance? That is who started the debate. He was a rookie, and he

will join those many others that preceded him on both sides of the House in the

past, who have managed to get themselves elected on somebody's coattails and who

will join that infamous group of people who have only been able to serve one

term in the Provincial Legislature. There are a few others over there who might

be in some kind of jeopardy, too. As cocky as they are today, let me assure them

that the way it is in politics, as some of the more experienced people will tell

you, it does not always stay that way, so Members opposite may want to ponder

that point.

Mr. Chairman, before I was so rudely interrupted by the

Member for Pleasantville, and I do not know why he continues to interrupt me, I

would like to try to start making a few points about debate, about legislation,

about finance matters, and about the bill. There I have spoken about the bill.

Okay? Now, I will move off the bill for the moment and talk about the Labour

Legislation. That is what I want to talk about briefly. I want to talk about the

Labour Legislation and what I was saying is that Members have not participated

in the debate of that legislation which is a very significant piece of

legislation, Bill 16, and my point, I say to the Member for Pleasantville, my

point of all of that is, that I hope the same will not be the case in this

debate, okay, that is the point I was trying to make before he so rudely

interrupted me, that I hope Members Opposite will be allowed to stand and

participate in the Interim Supply debate, that is what we want to hear. We want

to hear your views on the Budget, we want to hear you defend the Government's

decision to break collective agreements, we want to hear you defend the

Government's decision to back off on the pay equity commitment. So, you know, I

want to hear the Member for Pleasantville stand in his place, a great

constitutional expert, the most knowledgeable backbencher over there I dare say,

certainly, if you were to read the hundreds of press releases that he has been

putting out the last few months.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SIMMS: The Member for Pleasantville: if you were to

read the hundreds of press releases he started putting out a few months ago when

the rumours started to fly around that there might be a Cabinet shuffle,

followed closely, I might say, Mr. Chairman, for a brief period of time at

least, followed closely, closely, by the Member for St. John's South, 'old brown

nose Murphy himself' they call him, who read it in the paper, and there are

those cynics who suspect he might have even planted it in the paper, but now, I

do not believe that, I do not believe that.

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MR. SIMMS: Now, now, I do not believe that, I do not

believe that, but there are those - he has some connections in the print media,

there is no question about that, but anyway, when the story suddenly appeared in

the paper that the Member for St. John's South was being touted as the Minister

of Labour to replace the Member for Conception Bay South, well, you talk about

press releases coming out then from the Member for Eagle River.

The Member for Eagle River flowed them out, the Member for

Carbonear did not bother too much; the Member for Exploits went on the road,

went on the road and made public speaking engagements out in his district. He

appeared in Peterview, he appeared in Botwood, he appeared in Bishop Falls and

there were stories in the paper, on the news media, everywhere and this was on

the heels of this breaking story about a Cabinet shuffle -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) foolish.

MR. SIMMS: - and the Member for St. John's South - there

is nobody in the gallery, so do not bother, do not look up, do not look up-

AN HON. MEMBER: There are no more townies going into the

Cabinet.

MR. SIMMS: No more townies going into the Cabinet. Now we

have heard it, Mr. Chairman, we have heard it.

MR. MATTHEWS: There are too many of them in there now.

MR. SIMMS: We have heard it from one of those aspirants.

Note, I said, aspirant.

AN HON. MEMBER: Did you say aspirins?

MR. SIMMS: You know what I said, one of those aspirants.

AN HON. MEMBER: Is that a Bufferin (inaudible).

MR. SIMMS: Aspirants.

AN HON. MEMBER: Bayer, Bayer.

MR. SIMMS: Yes. That there will be no more townies in the

Provincial Cabinet -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SIMMS: Pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: I am wondering what kind of aspirants

(inaudible).

MR. SIMMS: No, the same kind of aspirants; but anyway, so

the Member for Carbonear then is telling us now -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SIMMS: - but I am not sure if the Member for Mount

Scio is a townie or not, nobody knows -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

AN HON. MEMBER: He is so far back now, he is not even a

backbencher.

MR. SIMMS: - yes, the Member for Mount Scio has been

moved so far back now that he is not even a member of the backbenches anymore.

The Member for Carbonear has put him in his place. So that

tells us that for the upcoming Cabinet shuffle the field has narrowed somewhat,

to only rural Members, to only Members from outside town, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SIMMS: Well, your own colleague tells us that.

The next question then, of course, is is the Member for

Bonavista South a townie? He lives in town, so he is eliminated.

MR. MATTHEWS: He always wanted to be a townie.

MR. SIMMS: Is the Member for Lewisporte?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Chairman, am I ever glad the Minister of

Labour spoke up, from sitting in her seat. Why doesn't she stand and participate

in the debate, particularly the debate on Bill 16? Why doesn't she stand in her

place and speak to that piece legislation instead of sitting there and cat

calling? She would be much better off.

AN HON. MEMBER: She has to speak to it now.

AN HON. MEMBER: Are you a townie?

MR. SIMMS: No, I am not a townie, Mr. Chairman. And not

only that, I am not the least bit interested in serving in that Cabinet over

there, not the least bit. Not with the approach they have taken.

Now, Mr. Chairman, we did not hear a word from the Minister

of Finance. But I know we will, because we have five or six days of debate

coming up. And I would like to hear from the Minister of Finance, I would like

to hear from Members in the back benches in particular, the President of

Treasury Board, and particularly the Minister of Labour. I would like to see her

get up and tell us what she is doing to offset all the job losses from the

firings; I would like to see her get up and debate Bill 16, which she has not

done yet; I would like to see her get up and explain the fallout from all of

this economic mismanagement on the labour movement in the Province, people she

should be concerned about. So we expect to see that kind of debate as time goes

on. I want to thank Members for their indulgence and their courtesy, for

listening to what I have had to say for the first fifteen minutes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia

West.

MR. TOBIN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I would

like to have a few words to say in this debate, as well. I will probably start

off where my colleague left off, Mr. Chairman, in dealing with this debate, by

trying to entice some of the people in the back benches in particular, who

should be very disappointed with the actions of this Government, to participate

in the debate. I believe it is shameless, Mr. Chairman, that -

MR. DUMARESQUE: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: The Member for Eagle River would be better off

standing in his place and debating this than cat calling from his seat. As a

matter of fact, the Member for Eagle River would be a lot better off if he went

back to his district.

We talked, Mr. Chairman -

AN HON. MEMBER: He cannot go back (inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Well, we cannot say anything about the Member

for St. John's South going back to his district, Mr. Chairman, because we

understand he has a mailbox there.

AN HON. MEMBER: He what?

MR. TOBIN: He has a mailbox in his district.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman, I shall not let myself be

interrupted by the Member for St. John's South or the Member for Pleasantville.

I want to say today that it is time that this Government did something for the

people of rural Newfoundland in particular. When I listened today in Question

Period - I never got my question on - but when I see what has happened in this

Province, particularly in rural Newfoundland - as a matter of fact, it was last

Tuesday that I met a gentleman out here in the lobby. He asked me about the Port

aux Basques hospital. He actually worked on the construction of that hospital

and could not believe that the Government was closing down a building that had

just been put in place. And when you look at television and see they are not

closing -

MR. RAMSAY: They are not closing (inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Listen to the Member for LaPoile, they are not

closing it down. What were the people in the stadium in Port aux Basques saying

pn television the other day? I know it is difficult for you to know what they

said, because you did not have the courage to go out there, you stayed in here

and made excuses like you did yesterday. You lacked the courage to go back and

represent your constituents. That is what you did. That is where you are coming

from. That is where you should be.

MR. WALSH: It is slanderous for you to say that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please!

AN HON. MEMBER: Hide away! Hide away!

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman, the only thing that is

slanderous in this House is the Member opposite. And I shall take no lessons

from you when it comes to talking about decency or what is slanderous or what is

not!

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

MR. TOBIN: You should be over on Bell Island looking

after the ferry, that is where you should be. You should be over on Bell Island!

You have betrayed your constituents like no one in this Province has ever seen

before! You should resign! You should resign, Mr. Chairman! You should resign.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)!

MR. TOBIN: You should resign, that is what you should do!

You will never get into Cabinet like that, either. Mr. Chairman, The Member for

Mount Scio - Bell Island will never get into Cabinet by toeing the line and

letting the Premier close down hospitals, close down vocational schools, and cut

down the ferry service. The Member for Mount Scio will never get into Cabinet,

Mr. Chairman, by pounding his desk.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

MR. TOBIN: He will never get there! What, Mr. Chairman -

MR. WALSH: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Well, well, well, well, well. What else are we

going to hear? What else will we hear in this Legislature from a Member who

lacks the courage, like the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island, to stand and

support his constituents and instead toes the party line? What have you said in

this House about cutting back of a ferry from Bell Island? What have you said in

this House about that? What have you said about the cutback in health care for

Bell Island? Not a word, not a whisper. And then you have the nerve, the

gumption to catcall across this House when someone stands to present the

concerns of your constituents.

MR. WALSH: I have (inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Why don't you do it?

MR. WALSH: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: That is the Member, Mr. Chairman, who said

about the teachers -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TOBIN: - who attacked the teachers! That is the

Member who attacked the teachers last year, in the last session of the House.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Yes. And every teacher in this Province knows

it, because it was discussed at every meeting you went to.

Now, Mr. Chairman, I see the President of Treasury Board, the

Government House Leader. When he talked about having the House open, my

colleague, our House Leader, made reference to the House opening on Holy

Thursday night. Well, I can say to the President of Treasury Board that I think

it is wrong for the House to open on Holy Thursday night. There are a number of

people who work in this House and people who sit in this House who have always

attended churches on Holy Thursday, and done other things.

AN HON. MEMBER: Are you putting in a request on that?

MR. TOBIN: No, Mr. Chairman, I am putting in no request.

But I am saying to the Government House Leader that I think it is wrong! It is

an affront to the churches in this Province for you to have the House open on

Holy Thursday night. And I sincerely believe that. I do not consider myself

anyone ready to be canonized, but very seldom have I, for one, missed church on

Holy Thursday!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TOBIN: And I do not think I am going to miss it

again. No, I think it is wrong! I think it is wrong!

MR. BAKER: A point of order.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please!

The hon. the President of Treasury Board on a point of order.

MR. BAKER: I am afraid the hon. Member is getting carried

away and it might be bad for his health.

AN HON. MEMBER: He should be!

MR. BAKER: I will say to him that if he wants to make a

case to not be open Thursday night, I am a very reasonable person and all he has

to do is explain it to me and I am quite willing to change my mind. He does not

need to get all upset and turn red and so on.

I am afraid he might hurt himself, Mr. Chairman.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West.

MR. TOBIN: That was not a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No. There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: No, I will not, but I will tell the Member for

Mount Scio - Bell Island that I take strong exception to that comment, by the

way. I take strong exception to that comment. It is not the place to debate it,

but I can tell you, sir, that that statement is not true.

MR. WALSH: (Inaudible)!

MR. TOBIN: That that statement is not true!

MR. R. AYLWARD: Ah, your mouth got you again, Walsh.

MR. TOBIN: That statement is not true, and I take strong

exception to it, okay?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: No. But I can tell the Member for Mount Scio -

Bell Island that I take strong exception to that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please!

I ask hon. Members to my left to keep from interjecting. It

is not adding to the decorum of the House.

The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West.

MR. TOBIN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. There are a

lot of issues that I want to speak about here, particularly the health care

system in this Province, the mess the Social Services Department is in, and, as

well, the situation as it relates to my own district, in particular the

Marystown Shipyard and the situation with the fish plants and fisheries in that

area.

Last week, on Tuesday past, my colleague, the Member for

Grand Bank, and I attended a meeting of 400 laid off shipyard workers. And what

did we discover? We discovered that 300 of these people will have to go to the

mainland this year to get their stamps, to qualify for unemployment insurance,

because of the lack of commitment by this Government to the Marystown shipyard.

We looked at in excess of $1 million cut from the health care

budget on the Burin Peninsula. It is not just my District, Mr. Chairman, or my

colleague for Grand Bank's that is affected on the Burin Peninsula. The Member

for Fortune - Hermitage has constituents who live on the Burin Peninsula. And I

can say to him that his constituents will be affected by the cutback in the

health care system, as they will be by the reduction of the work force at the

Marystown shipyard. They will be drastically affected, as they have been, Mr.

Chairman, with the Marystown fish plant closed, from last November up until

yesterday. His constituents will be affected as well in that area.

And on top of that, Mr. Chairman, what has this Government

done? They have fired, given the pick slip to the District Management of the

Social Services Office in Bay L'Argent. And what else did they do with the

Member for Fortune - Hermitage? They gave the pink slip to the District Manager

in Harbour Breton and cut five or six jobs from his hospital there. That is what

they have done.

MR. MATTHEWS: You understand why he wanted to get over

with them.

MR. TOBIN: It is too bad the Minister of Social Services

is not here.

MR. MATTHEWS: If they would do all that for me, I would

go over there, too.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

MR. TOBIN: It is too bad the Minister of Social Services

is not here. But the President of Treasury Board should listen to what I have to

say, because with the cutbacks in the Department of Social Services, they have

attacked the women, Mr. Chairman, of that Department. There were five district

managers laid off, in St. Mary's, Arnold's Cove, Bay L'Argent, Harbour Breton

and Port Saunders, five district managers, three of whom were women. And we were

making such strides in that Department over the last few years by putting women

in management positions.

What about the step above that, the directors and assistant

directors? Who was laid off in that area, Mr. Chairman? Would the President of

Treasury Board know if they were women? Would he know that this Government has

laid off -

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. Member's time is up.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. CHAIRMAN: By leave?

MR. TOBIN: No, Mr. Chairman, I am recognized again, I

guess.

MR. CHAIRMAN: By leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia

West.

MR. TOBIN: Does the Minister realize that the Assistant

Director, as I understand it, of Day Care Services for this Province has been

laid off? Day Care and Homemaker Services, a very vital role, an important

function in this Province. And I am sure my colleague, the Member for Humber

East, will be addressing day care and homemaker services later on.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TOBIN: I can say, Mr. Chairman, that that service is

something we should have, it should be put in place. And I do not think that

position should have been eliminated.

Today I was delighted to hear the Premier saying that Noel

Browne, a very competent and capable individual, will be accepting - I thought

he was replacing Calvin Payne as an assistant deputy minister. But that is not

what the Premier said, I have been told. I have been told since that Noel is

going to some sort of a director's position.

AN HON. MEMBER: He will be an ADM?

MR. TOBIN: He will be an ADM. I am delighted to hear

that. Because right now, Mr. Chairman, Noel Browne will be the only person who,

as a social worker, has come through the system. While we have competent,

capable people there, it is important that the social work conscience never

leave that Department. I am delighted Noel Browne is there. We had it in Calvin

Payne, but when Shelia Devine moved out and Beaton Tulk moved in, we lost from

that. But there should always be two assistant deputy ministers in that

department, in my opinion, who have a social work background. It is very

important. I am delighted to hear now that Noel Browne will be an assistant

deputy minister.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: That is not what the Premier said. And that is

not what I have been told. But I am delighted that the President of Treasury

Board -

AN HON. MEMBER: It is on the press release.

MR. TOBIN: No, it is not on the press release. It is not

there. He ad-libbed it. But if the President of Treasury Board is confirming

that, then I am satisfied. But I can tell him that is not what the Premier had

in his press statement. He ad-libbed it, and he said that Noel Browne would be

accepting some kind of a senior director's position. And that is not good enough

for me. But it will be okay. I am delighted the Minister has mentioned that -

the Minister has clarified that.

Mr. Chairman, I am sure other colleagues want to speak, so I

shall take my seat.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Question? Question?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl.

MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Chairman, hon. gentlemen should not kid

themselves and think they are going to waltz in here and in half an hour get

away with $1 billion unchallenged. That is about as foolish, Mr. Chairman, as

the notion they have of any popularity they may have around this Province.

It is absolutely incredible, Mr. Chairman, what happened in

this Province over the last few short months. All you have to do is go around

this Province and talk to some of the people and find out exactly what the

people think about this Budget and what they think about this Government. The

hon. gentleman for Lewisporte should not kid himself. I was in Lewisporte last

Sunday and Monday and I did not find one person in the hon. gentleman's district

who had something good to say about him. Not one, I say to my friend, because

the hon. gentleman and I have become somewhat of friends over the last couple of

years.

AN HON. MEMBER: What houses were you in?

MR. WINDSOR: Oh, you would like to know. I bet I was in

more houses than the hon. gentleman was, and I bet you I got a better reception

than the hon. gentleman.

AN HON. MEMBER: Last weekend?

MR. WINDSOR: Yes, last weekend. The hon. gentleman, Mr.

Chairman, is not as welcome in as many houses in Lewisporte as he would like to

think, not since he turned tail and hid when there was a dispute out there

between the Mayor and the fire chief. Maybe we should talk about that one.

Everybody out there was saying, where is our Member? We want his position on

this. I called his house fifteen times myself and could not get an answer. Now

the hon. gentleman will tell me he was out around his district, and perhaps he

was. I do not know where he was, but I could not get an answer. I have to tell

you, Mr. Chairman, that the hon. gentleman was very popular in his district. He

was very popular, because he had a reputation before he ran for election of

being somebody who stood up and spoke for what he believed in. He did not have

the courage to speak on Meech Lake, but I know what his views were on Meech

Lake. He did not have the courage to speak on that, and when we had a dispute in

his district, a local issue but a very important issue, which has been very

divisive in the town of Lewisporte, the hon. gentleman hid away. He could not be

found.

AN HON. MEMBER: He did speak on Meech Lake.

MR. WINDSOR: Oh he spoke on Meech Lake, yes. He parroted

the dictator's words. He did what he was told to do. He did not speak with his

conscience. The people in Lewisporte are now so disappointed with him because

they thought he was a gentleman who stood up and said what he believed in. When

he was involved, I believe, in the Rod and Gun Club, one of the greatest

spokesman against the spray program he was. In fact, he gained a great deal of

his popularity and his visibility in his district from the very strong position

he took against the spray program. Where was he this year when the spray program

was announced? Yea, Yea, Yea, for it, Mr. Minister. We are going to spray again.

He was not heard then.

MR. PENNEY: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.

MR. WINDSOR: It is not a point of order, it is a point of

interruption, Mr. Speaker.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Lewisporte on a point of order.

MR. PENNEY: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. It must be

pointed out that what the hon. Member for Mount Pearl is saying is totally

inaccurate. There was never a time that this Member took a position against the

spray program. The position that this Member took was against fenitrothion. As a

matter of fact, I was one of the people who promoted the use of Bt. Bt was not

being carried around in a wheelbarrows, that was being sprayed, too, Mr.

Chairman.

MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Chairman, this is not a point of order.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

Will the hon. Member get to his point of order.

MR. PENNEY: Mr. Chairman, my point of order is that the

hon. Member for Mount Pearl, for whatever reason, and I would not suggest it is

intentional, is misleading the House.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

There is no point of order. It is a dispute between two hon.

Members as to what the facts may be, but it is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl.

MR. WINDSOR: Of course he was not on a point of order,

Mr. Chairman. If he wants to make an explanation, we are on Interim Supply. Is

it ten or fifteen minutes we get?

AN HON. MEMBER: Ten minutes.

MR. WINDSOR: Ten minutes at a time. I would like to get

him on his feet. I would like to hear the hon. gentleman speak in this House and

represent the District of Lewisporte. I have a vested interest in the District

of Lewisporte.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: Yes, I have known property there. I have a

lot of friends and relatives there, and I would like to see the district

properly represented. The only representation they are getting is what I am

giving them in here, Mr. Chairman. That hon. gentleman has not been on his feet

to talk about the District of Lewisporte since he was elected. He has not been

seen since he was elected, Mr. Chairman. They do not know where he is out there

anymore. What a disappointment he has been to them. He should go out and talk to

some of the people. Of course, they might not give him the real truth.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please!

MR. WINDSOR: They might not tell him the facts of what

they really think about him in Lewisporte, but I will tell you. I know what they

think of him. I am even tempted, Mr. Chairman, to move to Lewisporte and run

against him. I am tempted. I am tempted, but I am under much pressure to save

Mount Pearl, you see.

AN HON. MEMBER: Save Mount Pearl?

MR. WINDSOR: Yes, protect Mount Pearl against this

Government that wants to take us over, that wants to amalgamate us. We will get

into that issue a little later on. But I am awfully tempted. A lot of people out

there really want me to come out. They really want a voice, not a parrot in the

back benches of a Government run by a dictator, who is doing absolutely nothing

for the district.

Well, Mr. Chairman, I want to get back - I am not going to

waste my time talking about the Member for Lewisporte. He is history anyway. He

will ride out his next couple of years, however long he has the courage to stay

in Government, or before they get the courage to call an election, I should say.

He will sit around for that period of time, but then he is history I say to my

good friend and I have no animosity for him; I like the hon. gentleman on a

personal basis.

MR. PENNEY: So you won't mind if we run in Lewisporte and

(inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: If you beat me in the election?

MR. PENNEY: Yes.

MR. WINDSOR: Not a chance. Not a chance. Not a chance. I

would beat the hon. gentleman soundly, I assure him, in the District of

Lewisporte. I was talking to a couple of constituents out there this morning, as

the hon. gentleman may or may not know, who were talking to a lot of people over

the weekend. It is amazing, Mr. Chairman, everywhere I go and everybody I speak

with - I just came, by the way. The Opposition House Leader did the opening

remarks on this Bill for me in my absence. I was attending a funeral in Mount

Pearl. After the funeral, I stood outside the church. I was surrounded by a

dozen people who said when are you going to do it? When are you going to get rid

of this hon. crowd? How long are we going to have to suffer? How long? It is

amazing the animosity.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: The hon. gentleman does not believe it, the

hon. gentleman from Bellevue?

MR. BARRETT: You were talking to different people than I

was.

MR. WINDSOR: Yes, but I am talking to some of the people

from Come By Chance, too, who want to know what the hon. gentleman's position

has been on his hospital out there, his clinic.

AN HON. MEMBER: I have been talking to them.

MR. WINDSOR: I know he has been out talking to them, and

I know some of the things they have said to him. I am having a problem here

today, Mr. Chairman, being mean to some of these people. This is a neighbor and

a constituent of mine I am talking about here. It is amazing what I heard about

him.

I should talk about the hon. gentleman from Burgeo - Bay

D'Espoir, because I spent a couple of days in his district this weekend. The

first time they have seen a politician down there in a couple of months they

told me. The first time, and it is a very nice establishment. I will take the

opportunity, I say to the Minister of Tourism, to put in a plug now for some

tourist cabins down there, which I believe the Department of Development may

have put some funding into, called the Hill Top Tourist Cabins in Milltown, done

through the Federal-Provincial agreement. A very nice little operation; seven

cabins there that were filled last weekend. The only problem the hon. gentleman

has is he needs more snowmobiles, because he rents snowmobiles. I had some

brochures, and I will bring them in tomorrow. He asked me to bring them, so I

will bring them in and I will distribute them here in the House tomorrow. And I

recommend it to hon. gentlemen. It is a very nice location, good operation and

good people.

MR. FUREY: (Inaudible) got trails (inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: Well, you just follow up the trails. I

brought my own machines down, but we followed up the transmission line, almost

up to northeast Gander, and went up the Upper Salmon and up through Con Pond and

all those areas. There is fabulous snowmobiling down there. I did some

snowmobiling out in Lewisporte, too, by the way, I say to my hon. friend from

Lewisporte. But I just wanted to get a plug in for that tourist establishment.

It is new, just opened up a couple of months ago, but I say to the Minister that

he needs some more snowmobiles. The big attraction he has is that you or I can

book the cabins and can drive down from here without towing machines behind,

which is not a lot of fun in the wintertime. He has excellent machines, and he

will take you on guided tours to wherever you want to go.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) catch any trout?

MR. WINDSOR: I did not do any trout fishing, no. I

decided not to try to drill down through the four feet of ice that was on the

ponds down there. There was four feet of ice on the ponds.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. Member's time is up.

MR. WINDSOR: I am down, then I am back up again, Mr.

Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please!

The hon. Member's time is up.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl.

MR. WINDSOR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There is no danger

of getting anybody over there up. The driving time is about six hours from Mount

Pearl to Milltown, fairly comfortably, you know. There were ideal driving

conditions this weekend. You are not always going to get that. And that is the

advantage, I say to the Minister. There is tremendous potential. I am on to one

of my favourite topics now; I have lots of time so I will get into it -

snowmobiling in Newfoundland and Labrador.

We have tremendous potential. I do not know if the Minister

is aware that Newfoundland is one of the few provinces, maybe the only province,

in Canada which does not have a groomed snowmobile trail all the way across the

Province. You can go to Quebec, and I can show the Minister brochures - I do not

need to. He has them in his office. His staff can give him more than I have

available to me. But there are groomed snowmobile trails in Quebec. You can go

up there and you can buy a package: stay in an outfitter's lodge - we have lots

of those which are not utilized most of the wintertime but could be - rent your

snowmobiles or bring your own, as you see fit. You have groomed trails, groomed

by the Government. And it is a big industry now, particularly in Ontario and

Quebec and in northern Manitoba, a big, big industry; In the Prairie Provinces

you do not need groomed trails, you can go anywhere.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible), looking at the railway

(inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: Well, I have been advocating that for years.

I have spoken - I am on the record about six times in this House.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: Well, I want to go on the record again, Mr.

Chairman, as saying it would be an absolute crime if we allowed that corridor to

be destroyed. I saw the Minister of Environment put out a notification a couple

of days ago on an environmental assessment of putting some cables, I think

telephone cables, and using the rail line for a telephone cable corridor, a

buried cable. And that is great. I was delighted, because I said that will help

protect the corridor. Because I am aware that there is a tremendous amount of

pressure to use that corridor for other purposes, for incorporating it into

industrial parks, or building on it or whatever. And I think that would be an

absolute crime. I recognize the problem we will have on highways, and we may

well have to spend a few dollars to put underpasses or something on some of the

highways for safety purposes, to protect people who are using snowmobiles or

all-terrain vehicles on that right-of-way. But it is a tremendous corridor.

People are using it now by the thousands, as the Minister knows - by the

thousands - getting to their summer homes and to other recreation areas, just

for transportation purposes, hauling wood or any number of things. But it would

be an absolute crime that we have such a corridor going through some of the most

beautiful parts of our Province, if we were to allow it to be destroyed. Because

there is tremendous potential - tremendous potential - in the snowmobile

industry, there really is, and it is starting to develop.

And I started to talk about it because I mentioned that he

had four machines; he has four machines for rent in that operation. He said to

me, if I had four machines for each of my seven cabins, I would have each of the

seven cabins always booked. His problem is that he does not have enough machines

to match the cabins; he only has four for rent plus one that he -

AN HON. MEMBER: Did he try anywhere (inaudible)?

MR. WINDSOR: I did not get into any detailed conversation

with him actually, it was more of an indirect conversation. But that is the

problem.

AN HON. MEMBER: Are you familiar with the (inaudible)

program in (inaudible)?

MR. WINDSOR: No, I have not been involved in it. But

there is so much potential, I am not surprised they are into it.

MR. FUREY: I did it two weeks ago; it is an amazing,

amazing run. The potential for tourists coming in is just amazing.

MR. WINDSOR: Yes. But I would love to. The hon. gentleman

for Lewisporte has gone away on me now. I know he participated in a run last

week, a seventy kilometre run or 120 kilometre run, from Lewisporte up through

Horwood, back to Gander, up to Notre Dame Junction and back down to Lewisporte.

It was organized for charity.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

MR. WINDSOR: The Minister will know that two years ago we

did a run from Corner Brook to Gander for the Tourism Convention.

AN HON. MEMBER: You did?

MR. WINDSOR: I did not do it, no. I was to do the one

from St. John's to Gander. We just did not have any snow, so we could not do it.

But I would have liked to have done it, and we will do it one of these days. But

there is a tremendous potential there and I really do not think we should be

missing out on it. In fact, we have to put more money into it.

And the Minister will know that one of the key things that is

trying to be accomplished in the Tourism industry in Newfoundland is to look

into the off-seasons, the shoulder season. I know I have said many times in this

House that there is no such thing as a tourist season; twelve months of the year

is the tourist season. We just have not captured it. And probably one of the

greatest successes (inaudible) -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: That is right, perception and - you know,

there is the concept in people's minds that Tourism is a summer thing, a very

short thing. I disagree entirely. Marble Mountain and White Hills are two of the

greatest examples of what we have been able to accomplish; people finally

realized that, hey, winter is not so bad. You cannot beat it, but if you join it

you will enjoy it! So when you see some snow coming down now, it is not this

terrible stuff you have to shovel, but something that is going to make skiing

better or snowmobiling better. So that is a concept that has to be and can be

developed right across this Province. And there is tremendous potential for

development throughout rural Newfoundland and Labrador. The potential is

incredible.

I say to my friend from Bonavista, I have talked to people

out there who would like to develop that same concept, using the branch line

from Clarenville to Bonavista. And it could be well promoted. It would be an

excellent run, particularly for people from St. John's. You know, it is an hour

and a half or a two hour run to drive to Clarenville and take your snowmobile

from there and use the old branch line and go as far as Bonavista and come back

again. And all kinds of services could be developed along the line, because that

line goes through the communities all the way from Clarenville to Bonavista. So

there is a lot of potential there to provide services, and there are people

waiting for that opportunity. There are opportunities anywhere you turn. My

friend from Cormac, in the District of Humber Valley, knows that area well.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Labrador.

MR. WINDSOR: Labrador? I mean, how can I forget Labrador,

Mr. Chairman, when I look over and see my good friend from Menihek. I have had

many a good snowmobile ride through his courtesy, arranging machines for me in

the Labrador City/Wabush area. That is something different again.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: Pardon?

You can't use them in national parks, no. That is unfortunate

but yet there is a rationale for that too, there is wildlife to think about,

there is a wilderness environment that needs to be protected, and I do not have

any problem with not using them in national parks. It is unfortunate for those

of us who like to use them. I suspect we will get into a great debate here on

all- terrain vehicles. I know the Minister's -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: Well, my friend was saying that the use is

restricted in national parks, they have restricted it now in Gros Morne National

Park. It has always been restricted in Terra Nova. They have now restricted it

in Gros Morne. They are attempting to. Very difficult to do it when you have the

enclaves there where people have traditionally been hauling wood and going

fishing using their snowmobiles, I think it is very difficult to stop them.

I would say to the Minister, if the Minister is not aware of

it, back in about 1980 or 1981 I took the Ministers of Tourism for all of

Atlantic Canada to Gros Morne Park, took them on snowmobile back up into the

country one afternoon. And it was most enjoyable. It was organized by the

national park people, they provided the machines for us, they had a reception at

the

Interpretation Centre in Rocky Harbour.

We had lunch at Mr. and Mrs. Parsons' Hospitality Home. If

you have never eaten a lunch at Mr. and Mrs. Parsons' Hospitality Home, you have

never eaten lunch, let me tell you. It is a five-course lunch with all the

trimmings and absolutely disgraceful desserts. But is it ever good. But they

are, I would say, the epitome, the most representative couple of what tourism

should be and can be in Newfoundland and Labrador. An elderly couple, they have

a beautiful home, I am sure my friend knows it. They are fabulous people, they

are great ambassadors for us. You look at some of the tourist brochures you will

see pictures of Mr. Parsons there I think with a pan of raspberries, as I

recall, in your tourism book. But they are fabulous, fabulous people, who have

done tremendous things to promote tourism in that part of the area. And anybody,

any of the Members who may be up that area, would be well advised, would do

themselves a favour, to drop in and call ahead, and say: I am going to be here

and I would like to have lunch for a couple of people. They are a tremendous

couple.

But there is a tremendous potential for tourism in this

Province, Mr. Chairman. We are talking about massive layoffs across the Province

here in this Budget, and it is so much more fun to talk about -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: Well, I was saying to my friend that I

realized, I understand, the Government is looking at new ATV regulations. And I

will speak to that when it comes to the floor of the House.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. Member's time is up again.

MR. WINDSOR: Just give me one more minute and then I will

sit and let one of my colleagues or somebody opposite speak, because I will have

many chances again.

AN HON. MEMBER: Have you seen some of the areas torn up

(Inaudible)?

MR. WINDSOR: I see some areas torn up. Most of the areas

that I see torn up - and they are exceptions, you can not generalize this, okay?

- are torn up not by ATVs but by the tracked vehicles. The tracked vehicles,

ones that are hauling the large amounts of lumber, the J5s. J5s are the ones

that are causing all of the damage, the big bombardiers with the steel tracks

that are hauling on a regular trail. And yes, there are areas where people are

constantly going in hauling wood or fishing, you know? Is that any different

than it was 100 years ago when we hauled in with horse and carriage? And we cut

roads to go through, alright? We build wood roads to get access in there. Those

are permanent scars. ATVs across bog are temporary scars, I say, and will

recover. And yes, there is a need for more regulation. There is a lot of

indiscriminate usage. If the hon. Minister were to get an ATV and to take a

track across a marsh, I doubt that I could follow him. I doubt I could follow

his trail. Because one ATV going over a marsh - with some exceptions, obviously,

in real solid bog you will leave a trail - but generally it is not tearing up

the terrain. But it is the continuous usage of a particular trail, the

repetition, is what causes the damage, alright? And indiscriminate use.

The biggest problem out there is attitude again. It is the

garbage that is being left behind. When I go to the country I usually come back

with a bigger sack than I went in with. All of my garbage plus five times as

much that other people have left behind. And I think it really is - if there is

something that we could do to change the attitudes of people going into the - I

have a saying, I do not know if it is appropriate here or not. But I always say,

leave nothing in the environment unless you have eaten it first. Okay? When you

go out into the wilderness leave nothing there that you have not eaten first,

and that is a good rule, and I have quoted it thousands of times to people. And

I think if we all followed that rule our environment would be so much better.

And there is noting as upsetting to me as travelling ten or fifteen or twenty

miles back into the country on canoe or all-terrain vehicle or snowmobile and

seeing a stack of beer or bean cans. I mean, if a guy is capable of carrying an

aluminium can filled with beer or pop, whatever the case may be, into the

country, surely he can carry back an empty beer can squat up. I mean, it weighs

absolutely nothing. You can shove it in your shirt pocket if you want to.

And this is an argument that I had - the Minister may still

be involved in this. When I was in the Department of Development, there was a

great move afoot to eliminate beer cans for environmental reasons. And my

argument is, and there is no black or white on that one either, my argument on

that was that, if I am going into the country and I want to bring beer or soft

drink cans in, I will bring the cans back. But I have more sympathy for those

who say: I am not going to bring a bottle back. And a bottle is more dangerous

from a forest fire point of view than a can is. Unfortunately aluminium cans

last a long time. But a broken bottle will cause a forest fire where the

aluminium can will not. And I say that there is a greater tendency to either

bring the aluminium can back or you can burn it. When you light a camp fire -

and I am doing it every day on the weekends, when I am out on snowmobile - you

light a camp fire and you boil up, you throw your cans in the fire. And they

totally disintegrate.

And so my argument on that is that they are more convenient,

you are more likely to bring it back, or you are more likely to burn it than to

lug empty bottles back. So from an environmental point of view I for one am not

convinced that the aluminium can is all that bad as it relates to this

recreational usage.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: Sorry, I can't -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: We are our own worst enemy in that regard.

So, Mr. Chairman, I am going to sit down for a minute and let somebody else get

up, I do not want to block the whole afternoon. I have many chances to get up.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I rise to speak on

this bill because I think it is very important that Members have an opportunity

to talk about what this Government has planned. We see an interim supply bill of

$993 million of which $210 million is for education. We know, Mr. Chairman, that

that is a tremendous amount of money, $993 million. But you know, less that

one-tenth of 1 per cent of that amount of money is what it takes to run the

Extension Service of Memorial University. Mr. Chairman, some Members may wonder

why the Member for St. John's East is concerned about Extension Service, because

that has to do with rural Newfoundland. Why does he care what goes on in rural

Newfoundland?

Well, Mr. Chairman, the reason that the Member for St. John's

East cares about rural Newfoundland is because this Government does not care

about rural Newfoundland. And does not care that their policies are ripping the

guts out of the support system for rural Newfoundland by the destruction of a

service such as Memorial University Extension Service, which has provided many

services vital to Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, vital to the development of

communities, and vital to the public discussion and public participation. Mr.

Speaker, ironically, March 5, I received as I am sure all other hon. Members

did, from the Director of Extension, an education kit they called it on MUN

Extension. And it contains in it some dozen or more documents which outline what

MUN Extension is in terms of its provision of services for Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians, particularly in the rural region.

Just one of them is field services. Now perhaps the

Government and the Government Members over there do not know what field services

are. I would commend to them this kit, they should read all these things,

because then they will know what it is they are doing by their policies. Field

services, the document says, is an integral and unique part of Memorial

University's Extension Service. Field coordinators placed strategically around

the Province with offices located in Mary's Harbour, Labrador, Deer Lake,

Gander, Clarenville, Placentia, providing a main and constant link between the

education service and rural Newfoundland and Labrador. The field work

coordinators, are working towards educational objectives, supporting active

citizen involvement with community issues, creating awareness, providing

knowledge and skills, encouraging participation and promoting action. They live

and work in rural regions supplying techniques of social animation and adult

education.

Mr. Chairman, the field work services of Memorial Extension

Services have performed a very vital service in all of Newfoundland. I see the

Chairman, who represents a rural area, nodding his head, and the Member for

Eagle River nodding his head, as one who recognizes that this service does and

has continuously provided a vital service to rural Newfoundland in developing

awareness on issues, conducting forums on major policy issues, creating a link

between the University and the community, one which will not be replaced by any

other activity that the University has.

Another of the documents refers to a MUN Extension programme

called ACORN, the Applied Community-Oriented Research in Newfoundland. That is a

way of making sure that the University's research activity has some relevance to

the community of Newfoundland which pays the price. The Government and the

people of this Province pay the cost of Memorial University and they have a

right to insist and to seek ways that the University work, in all of its work,

whether it be in research in the biological sciences, whether it be in research

in the social sciences, in community development and other fields - sociology -

that that has some relevance to Newfoundland's and Newfoundlander's problems.

The objective of the ACORN is to facilitate and coordinate

University faculty expertise to research on community related problems. One of

the programmes that they outline here is the support for a biochemist to travel

to Goose Bay to act as an expert consultant to the local community, local

concerned citizens committee on PCB burn tests. That is a service provided to a

local community group which needs, and which needed at that time, independent

assessment, independent advice, not someone hired by the Government who may be a

part scientist, part public relations expert, but somebody who is independent,

who can come to a community and say that they have no brief for the Government

Department. As we know, Mr. Chairman, some scientists who work in Government are

sometimes part scientists and part apologists for Government policy. We know

that in many cases, even if that is not true, there is a public perception that

sometimes their opinions might be biased towards the opinions of the Minister of

the day responsible for that Government Department. So to have a service such as

this when citizens in Goose Bay were very concerned about what was going to

happen to the environment, to their children, to their health, when the

Government decided to engage in massive PCB burning, they wanted and received

from Mun Extension a scientist who is able to be an expert consultant to these

concerned citizens.

There are several other projects listed there. Again I

recommend all Members opposite to have a read and look at what it is they are

destroying through the policies that they are introducing in this Province, what

they are doing to rural Newfoundlanders in terms of creating out there in the

communities around Newfoundland and Labrador a fear, Mr. Chairman, that this

Government does not care, a fear that the support that they have received from

such institutions as Memorial is disappearing and it is disappearing because

this Government is prepared to let that happen. They are prepared to let

Memorial University wipe out in one stop the support for a very valuable

internationally recognized service to the people of Newfoundland.

I am a little concerned, Mr. Chairman, that perhaps some of

the motivation in this might be that they do not really want people talking

about issues in this Province. One of the other matters that Mun Extension deals

with in its awareness kit is issues in public policy, one of their objectives is

to generate awareness, discussion and debate on public policy issues relative to

citizens of Newfoundland and Labrador. That, Mr. Chairman, being done by an

independent body, not beholden to this Government on what it will talk about.

So what are the current topics? In January 1991: the Crisis

in the Fishery. Another topic, February 28: Cutbacks in Health, Education and

Services. They do not want people talking about that? They do not want to have

panel presentations, phone-in (inaudible) for the general public on issues in

cutbacks in health care, citizens forum on Canada's Future, scheduled for March

25, no doubt scuttled by the policies of this Government. The topic on Hibernia,

April 19, 1991; Environment, May 1991. No doubt, Mr. Chairman, those services

are gone too.

Mr. Chairman, all throughout this document that was presented

by Mun Extension to make the public of this Province aware of their policies and

their programs was all presented to hon. Members opposite, the same week, prior

to Education Week, I do not think they read it, Mr. Chairman, because if they

did they would not have supported the Budget that was introduced, and they would

not have supported the cutbacks to Memorial University if they thought for a

moment that it was going to have the effect of wiping out Memorial University

Extension Service. Then, Mr. Chairman, in the Interim Supply Budget, as I said

at the beginning, there is $993 million under the Heads of Expenditure outlined

in the Schedule. In this Schedule, Education is given $210,460,000. Mr.

Chairman, a minuscule amount of that by comparison would cover the cost of Mun

Extension, and this Government has shown by its lack of concern, by its failure

to properly provide for Memorial University a budget sufficient to run Extension

that they do not care and they are prepared to let this happen. Mr. Chairman, I

think that is a shame. It is a disgrace. People from all over rural Newfoundland

and Labrador will be speaking out and requiring this Government to answer for

their deeds.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before I recognize the hon. Member for

Green Bay I would like to welcome to the House today on behalf of hon. Members

Councillor Ray O'Neill from the City of St. John's.

The hon. the Member for Green Bay.

MR. HEWLETT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to make a few remarks with regard to this

particular Interim Supply Bill. It is perhaps coincidental that today I had a

delegation in from my district from Little Bay Islands who met with senior

officials of the Transportation Department with regard to their ferry system. In

the early 60s the Liberal Party, Mr. Chairman, did a tremendous effort to

resettle a good part of rural Newfoundland, however, I am very pleased and proud

to say that Green Bay was among those districts that did successfully buck that

particular trend and was not easily, or thoroughly, resettled. Green Bay has a

number of island communities that are still alive and well today. Port Anson and

Miles Cove are on Sunday Cove Island, we have Pilley's Island, we have Brighton

Island, we have Triton Island, and all of these Islands are connected to the

main Island of Newfoundland by a road and causeway network. However, Mr.

Chairman, we have two islands in Green Bay that are inhabited but not connected

by a causeway or road network, namely Little Bay Islands and Long Island. Some

years ago the ferry services to these two islands came under Federal

jurisdiction, and I remember years ago during the negotiations, the brother of

the current President of Treasury Board, Federal MP, George Baker, working hand

in hand with the Member for Green Bay at the time, Brian Peckford, to straighten

out the ferry system in Green Bay. We had one boat covering two islands, a

totally inadequate service, constant friction between the residents of the

island with regard to the service, the sharing of the service, etc. etc. So,

between the good efforts of Mr. Brian Peckford and Mr. George Baker, and the

Federal Government, which shed itself of these intraprovincial ferry services at

the time, we managed, with some considerable effort on the part of many, many

people, to set up two totally separate ferry systems in Green Bay for these two

islands. Several millions of Federal dollars were spent to construct four new

wharves, or ferry terminals, to purchase two boats and to construct road

networks leading to the four terminals, at which time when all of this was built

and put in place, the Federal Government of the day turned the ferry system and

others in the Province over to the Provincial Department of Transportation. Good

riddance, they said, it is yours, we built it for you and you run it.

Unfortunately, now, Mr. Chairman, they intend to run it into the ground or into

the sea, I suppose, would be more appropriately put. After struggling for many,

many years to get a separate ferry system for two islands the Budget announced

this year that the ferry service for Little Bay Islands and Long Island would be

amalgamated for six months of the year. That sounds easy to say from a

bureaucratic desk in St. John's, Mr. Chairman. That seems like an easily made

bureaucratic cost-saving measure but that affects people's lives in a very real

way. The people of Little Bay Islands, their ferry calls in at Shoal Arm near

Springdale. Springdale is their community of interest, where they do their

shopping, their banking, and where their medical services are, etc. The ferry

for Long Island calls in at Pilley's Island and they do a lot of their banking

and shopping, etc. in the Robert's Arm, Triton area. So, we have two distinct

communities of interest and each island referring by its own ferry service to a

totally distinct community of interest. Now, we have the tangle of amalgamating

the two ferry systems for six months of the year, with all the disruption that

entails, with again resurrecting the frictions between the two islands, and

resurrecting the question of which Mainland terminal, or terminals are to be

used during the period of the amalgamation of the two services. The delegation

from Little Bay Islands today was extremely worried that their fish plant, which

is very dependent on an efficient transportation system, might be adversely

affected if the Mainland terminal that they are used to using is no longer the

Mainland terminal of the amalgamated service. The fish plant on Little Bay

Islands deals mainly in shell fish products, Mr. Chairman. Shell fish spoils

very easily, and very quickly, and needs a quick ready efficient transportation

system. The viability of the fish plant on Little Bay Islands is in jeopardy if

the Department of Transportation are not very careful and very vigilant in the

way they organize the ferry system for the period of the amalgamation which is

six months out of every year.

The hon. Minister of Fisheries knows what I am talking about.

I have spoken to him before about the viability of that particular plant, and

certainly amalgamating the ferry services for six months of the year

complicates, to put it mildly, the ongoing viability of that particular fish

plant, which this year hopes to get into mussel processing in addition to crab

and other pelagic species.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please!

I have to announce the questions for the late show. I hate to

interrupt the Member.

MR. HEWLETT: No problem.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Question number one is: I am not satisfied

with the response from the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs

regarding my question on municipal capital works. I would like to have it placed

on the late show. That is the hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West.

Question number two: I am not satisfied with the answer given

by the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs in response to my question

on the capital grants for recreation. That is the hon. the Member for Fogo.

Question number three: I am not satisfied with the answer to

my question to the Minister of Labour, re: her concerns about the effect that

Bill 16 will have on Labour Relations. That is from the hon. the Member for

Grand Falls, the Opposition House Leader.

The hon. the Member for Green Bay.

MR. HEWLETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I was saying

before I was so cordially interrupted, the Budget brought down by this

particular administration has managed to put the transportation system for the

two islands in particular, back ten or fifteen years to complicate a matter that

the President of the Treasury Board's brother and the former Member, Mr.

Peckford, spent some years trying to sort out. Now we are back to square one

again, at least for 50 per cent of the year. The people of both Islands are very

upset with the Government with regard to this particular change, and as their

Member I feel it is my duty to bring this before the hon. House of Assembly and

to let Members in the Government benches, especially those from St. John's and

environs, understand that there is a rural Newfoundland with real problems, with

real people who need real services. They got real change, Mr. Speaker, but

unfortunately it was not real change for the better, it was real change for the

worst. I thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for Menihek.

MR. A. SNOW: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to

have the opportunity to speak today on this Interim Supply Bill for

$993,139,500, almost a billion dollars - almost one billion dollars. And, of

course, there was about $272 million in health care. That is a lot of money in

this Province. The district I represent produces a lot of revenue for this

Province. Some of the services that they have become accustomed to over the last

numbers of years they have seen eroded since the election of this Government.

They have seen services in western Labrador tremendously eroded, albeit the

economy there has shifted to the better because of a change in global economy.

One of the things that concerns an awful lot of people in

western Labrador is the erosion of the quality of health care. The reason why

they have such a great concern, and probably more concern than most other

districts, even though some people on the other side have concerns in their

districts, they have lost the quality of health care. In some cases they have

hospitals being closed, their functions have been changed and they are two and

three hours away from St. John's or they may be an hour and a half drive away

from a regional centre.

Well the problem in Labrador where I live, the 13,000 people

who live in Labrador City and Wabush, is that when we have to get to a surgeon

here in St. John's, it is an eight hour turn around time for a patient who has

an accident and would require an ambulance to get to a surgeon here in St.

John's, it would take eight hours. Eight hours. And yet this Government, this

regime has seen fit to institute an $870,000 cut to the revenues of the Captain

William Jackman Memorial Hospital in western Labrador, a hospital that has been

operating since 1965 by the Salvation Army, and probably one of the better, more

efficiently operated hospitals in this whole province.

The Salvation Army has done a tremendous job in coping with

the restraints over the last numbers of years and they have come up with a plan.

This time they were hoping to be able to see them through until next year,

albeit it is going to be difficult. We have also, in the last few years, seen

that we have had to offer medical services to our neighbouring community in

Fermont. Now, you might say why should we in this Province have a concern for

delivering a good quality health care to residents of another province, in the

Province of Quebec. The 3,500 people who live over there have an arrangement

with this Province to be able to make use of our hospital facilities because

they do not have a hospital. But that puts an additional strain on our health

care facilities in western Labrador, but it also provides an amount of revenue

from the Province of Quebec that they pay this Government to operate health care

in this whole Province. So, it is really an economic generator for this

Province, but this Province must realize and recognize the responsibility that

they have delivering good quality health care to an area of this Province that

is as isolated as western Labrador in the District of Menihek.

With the amazing size of the three mining properties in the

area, the potential for industrial accidents is tremendous. Can you imagine the

stress that that causes, not just on the workers who are out there, who are

fearful of this extended time delivery of health care if they were to have an

accident, being eight hours away from - that is in air ambulance, being eight

hours away from health care here in St. John's. The stress that causes to an

individual on the job and the stress that causes to the families at home

worrying about the "bread winner" out on a job who is in a potential of having

an industrial accident. And, of course, this does not do anything for the

quality of work that is going to be done on the job, and the quality of life in

the home itself in the town sites of Labrador City and Wabush. And this is an

area that produces more wealth to this Government than any other electoral

district in this Province, an area that puts in more per capita than anywhere

else in this Province, and an area that gets lesser and lesser from this

Government. Every Budget takes things out of western Labrador and takes more tax

revenue from western Labrador and cuts back services in western Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. A. SNOW: The hon. Member for Exploits, I am sure if

he were able to speak to some of his former friends in western Labrador -

AN HON. MEMBER: Former friends.

MR. A. SNOW: - who are still in the teaching profession,

an honourable profession, he would be told the same thing. They would tell him

about the gutting of programs that used to be delivered in western Labrador by

previous administrations.

MR. GRIMES: (Inaudible).

MR. A. SNOW: The hon. Member for Exploits is saying it is

not true that he does not have any friends in Labrador or is he saying he does

have? That is not true.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. A. SNOW: Anyway, Mr. Chairman, the people of western

Labrador are upset about the cutting back of services for the extremely high

amount of taxes that they produce and the wealth that they produce to this

Province.

It is unfortunate that this Province cuts the expenses to

areas such as western Labrador and they have seen fit to do it in the two

Budgets that they have brought down. It is unfortunate because it is creating a

feeling of alienation in the people of western Labrador towards the Island

portion of the Province. A feeling that had been eroded.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. A. SNOW: That feeling used to be prevalent many years

ago, it is starting to come again throughout Labrador, I believe, and it is

because of this centralization, of removing everything from rural Newfoundland

into the urban sections of Newfoundland.

I would hope that you people on the other side, when you have

the opportunity of talking to the select few in Cabinet, that you would urge

them to increase more funds to be spent in Labrador.

I am pleased to see that there was an allocation of some

extra money, $800,000 to be spent for a study and a design, I believe, on the

health care facilities in the district of Naskaupi. I think it has been

announced twice now in the last t