Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 33 (27th Legislature, 1st Session)

27-1-33

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Thursday, March 28th, 1963. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, just before we rose at 5: 30 I was dealing with a question or two in connection with the Item under Dental Care, and I raised a question concerning what I thought was ill�advised treatment of a denturist in pointing out to the Minister certain fea tures of this particular case that I thought was not just. Also, I raised the question as to wheth er or not if this was the general attitude of the enforcing

section of The Dental Act, whether or not we should consider reviewing the legislation in light of the incident --and I'm sure that this isn •t the only incident --whether or not we should not consider taking a look at that

section of The Dental Act which deals with the policing of their own Act, I had just about finished at that particular time and I'm wondering if the Minister has any information that he may be able to give to me. MR. JOHN SON: Mr. Chairman, I know the Leader of the NDP was good enough to brief me on this some time ago, and I think that if we refresh ourselves we 1ll recall that during the great debate of a few years ago, the decision was made that the --you remember Dr. Paynter who carried out the study with respect to the advisability o.f developing a dental school here, made a firm recommendation.

He pointed out the difficulties facing dental technology in this province, but the firm recommendation was that the provision of dental care and the provision of dentures and so on should be generally done under the overall supervision of dentists, At that time, the legislation was prepared and the technicians were advised henceforth to work on the prescription basis. Now with respect to the particular case mentioned by the honourable gentleman, it appears that a chap has come from another country and, as you say, apparently was encouraged by dentists to set up and serve them as a technician.

I don't know whether this is so or not, but let's assume it is, As long as this type of technician is working on a prescription from the den tist there is no problem. However, under the Act we did put the onus on the profession to �arry out the policing of this Act and we did so justifiably feeling we were acting in the public interest. When the Leader of the NDP says --the unethical practice I think of the investigators is what he is wondering whether we can do anything about. I'm not knowledgeable in this area.

It•s some thing we could probably look at, but my impression has been, from what I can determine, that the .••.• of course possibly the person in question can take civil action against people who in trude upon his premises unjustly, I don•t know, But as we know, the courts won•t act under this legislation unless the people policing the Act can prove or find a person in the act of carry ing out this illicit practice. Now this is really all I can say on this matter. I will certainly take it under advisement again and speak to the profession concerned.

While in no way putting myself in a position of defending the medical profession, I would draw to the attention of the committee just a few thoughts that I jotted down. First of all, with reference to the denture clinic which the honourable member asked about, I asked for a report again this year.

As you know, under the clinic we have two appointments from the department or the government to the Board of the Denture Clinic --two lay representatives, This year, in 1962, they report that approximately 1, 500 patients, compared with 992 for 161, received treat ment from the clinic, There was appreciable increase in the number of patients requiring den tures and also a marked increase in the number of people seeking denture repairs --640 com plete dentures, upper and lowers were provided; 197 single dentures; 80 denture relines; and 979 repairs, This is upconsiderably inrepairs from last year and up somewhat in dentures.

Ap parently, 15 percent come from rural Manitoba and the breakdown is mainly people over 40 -- 37 percent of the patients were 41 to 60; 61, over 41 percent; and the fees for both upper and lower is fixed at $85,00. The clinic which is operated by the Denture Clinic with the resources of the profession is therefore continuing their denture program at the denture clinic.

I would point out to the com mittee that I think a certain amount of credit must be given to the profession, especially in the last year or two with the establishement of the clinic; with the development of the School of Hygiene, As you remember, we included in their Bill a

section directing the establishment of a school for a combined hygienist and technician as a right arm for the dentist as visualized by Dr. Paynter, and this school is starting this fall. A staff has finally been obtained, I am advised, March 28th, 1963 Page 767

(Mr. Johnson cont'd) .•..••. by the university. Also during the past year, each Wednesday evening the Dental School Prosthetic Department, that is the department dealing with the con struction of teeth, and dental technology for technicians of all kinds, has been put on weekly and some of the technicians who were classified as denturists at one time have been attending this course. This fall, a course in dental assistants will be started at MTI. This is an office person for the dentist. The participation of course of the profession in medicare -.-and I can also ad vise the committee that the Laboratory Owners Association--the other group of technicians we had before --one

section of the technicians, the dental technicians have been in recently and had discussions with me and we have agreed jointly that in the coming year that I would sit down with them and ·review the position of dental technicians :Ui looking at possible legislation for a year hence. However, I think at this stage in the evolution and development of dental ser vices in the Province of Manitoba, that we should develop these decisions that have been made in the past and build on what we have here and be concerned, as I 1m sure we all believe in keep ing the teeth in people's mouths as much as possible.

I really feel that while I don •t for a minute minimize the seriousness of the situation with respect to these gentlemen who do prefer to work outside the law, that there is very little that I personally think that can be done. However, I take the Leader of the NDP•s suggestion in the spirit in which they were made, and will look into this. However, I don 1t really think, if this particular gentleman that has written him who as he says was set up by dentists in this particu lar case, if he had been working on the prescription basis, that he should have found such difficulties.

This is really all I would like to comment on at this time, but before I sit down I might advise the committee that in the four years of dentistry we have 102 students enrolled. MR.

PAULLEY: I want to thank the Minister for his remarks and I want to say to him,and I think he endorsed this in his closing remarks, that so far as I'm aware this isn•t a case of a former denturist, a former denturist who was working outside of the law, but rather an individ ual who was invited to come here to work for the dentists themselves by invitation, and then subsequently the work that he was being given was withdrawn and there seemed to be some fric tion between them; and then, as a net result, the situation that I enumerated prior to the supper hour prevailed. Now I want to say to the Minister, Mr.

Chairman, if I may, I'm glad to hear that he 1s going to sit down with the denturists sometime in the future. I want to say to my honourable friend that I have further information that I think is more or less of a confidential nature --that I wouldn't raise before the committee here today because of the confidential nature of it --but I will be carrying on discussions further with him pertaining to this case and also some other information that's come to my notice just recently, MR. JOHNSON: I'd be glad to see the Honourable Leader of the NDP about the information he has on hand. However, I would correct him.

I have made arrangements to meet with the Dental Technicians --I think we call these people dental technicians. MR. FRED GROVES (St. Vital): Before we leave this subject, I think there are a few things that I would like to say as I was the one that sponsored the Bill two years ago in connection with the denturists.

Although I don •t think that now is the time to engage in a full scale debate on this matter of the denturists versus the technicians, I do think that we have to face the facts of life in this matter, and that is that the situation as it stands today is no different than it was two years ago when we had this debate in the House. There have been some minor developments. None of the so-called illegal labs have closed; there have been injunctions issued by the courts against four individuals that affects two of the larger laboratories in the City of Winnipeg.

Both these labs are still carrying on under new owners and all of them are doing business as usual, in fact they are doing more business today than they did at the time that the restrictive legisla tion was passed.

The Honourable Minister mentions that fact that 1, 500 patients were treated by the Dental Association Clinic, and I would suggest that this is perhaps only 10 percent, maybe a little more than 10 percent,· of the total number of people that are taking dental work, both partial and full plates, to technicians, and the balance of them are using these technicians that were supposedly out-lawed in the legislation two years ago, We•re going to sooner or later have to deal with this situation, and one thing that I hope that the Minister will clarify and that is which group of technicians did he meet with.

Did he meet Page 768 March 28th, 1963

(Mr. Groves cont1d) ..••• with the technicians that presently are working solely on a prescrip tion basis for the dentists, or did he meet with the group that presented the Bill two years ago?

I think that, although the dentists in the last few months have slowed down on their pressure on these laboratories, mostly I would presume because of the fact that the public is supporting these establishments in such great numbers, but if the dentists do -- and I assume that they will - eventually start putting the pressure on, they have the power in their Act, as it stands at the moment, to close these places up entirely, and I suggest that if this is done that the thousands of people that are patronizing these establishments at the present time are going to have no place to go to get this type of work done.

Dentists are perhaps one of the busiest professions today. It•s difficult enough to be able to get an appointment to see a dentist and if, all of a sudden, the thousands of people that are patronizing these labs, many of them for minor repairs on plates, have to go to the dentists, they•re going to just simply swamp the dental offices; and I think that perhaps when the Minister is discussing this situation with whatever group of technicians he •s going to discuss them with, he should also include the dental profession, because this is something that I ·think is to their long-term advantage.

I think eventually they're going to have to recognize these technicians that are still intending to deal with the public direct, as a recognized arm of dentistry. These people are prepared to accept rigid controls from the Department of Health, and are willing<· not to intrude on the field of the dentist, and I think that they have a big role to play in dent'ai' health, not only in this province but in the other-provinces, some where there is legislation allowing them to practice and some where there aren't.

I think that the situation at the moment, although it•s static -- nothing is transpiring; the dentists aren •t pushing the power under their Act to force this legislation -- that sooner or later they're going to, unless there are talks be tween them and the Minister and the two groups concerned; and sooner or later I think if the situation continues to deteriorate, some of the things that the Minister mentioned this evening that they're doing insofar as training dental assistants, is alienating some of the technicians that are working on a prescription basis at the present time, and the dentists , I suggest, if they continue to ignore both the legal and the illegal technicians, are going to alienate the ones that are working with them at the present time and we're going to be in a worse mess than we were before. · So I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that the Minister should, in his capacity as the Minister of Health, meet with both of these groups of technicians and meet with the dentists in the hope · that perhaps this thing can be resolved by the time this House meets again, and we can get these two groups working together for the benefit of all the people that are requiring these ser vices, and I certainly don't think that the denturists group, the one whose Bill was presented to the House two years aga, should be ignored in this matter, and they should be brought into these discussions, and this situation should try to be resolved for the benefit of those that are availing themselves of the services.

MR. CHAIRMAN: (

a) passed, (

b) passed (15) (

a) passed (

b) passed (

c) passed (16) passed 17 (

a) passed (

b) passed (18) (a) . • . . . . - MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, being a new member I've been quite impressed with the dis cussion under this Health program, and suggest that everything has been said that can be said, and I feel confident that the department is in good hands but, Mr. Chairman, I should like to pay tribute to those that carry out the northern health work, many times under very, very trying conditions.

Speaking as a rural member with some association with these people, I want to: assure the committee that they are being well served by those that go afield and work amongst the native population and elsewhere throughout northern Manitoba.

Before I sit down I would like to pay tribute to the Winnipeg hospitals who receive our seriously ill people without delay and despatch, and being some 300 miles from Winnipeg mention has been made of their ambulance service, and I am sure in the days that lie ahead that the Minister will give serious considera tion to this matter which requires the bringing of seriously ill people and accident victims a long way.

Bringing them from Swan River, as it were, requires some seven or eight hours by road and you don •t require anything from me to tell you what this means during the winter sea son, and I would sincerely ask the Minister to consider this very, very important matter. MR. CHAIRMAN: 18 (

a) passed (

b) passed. Resolution 55 passed; 56 passed; Resolution 57, Mines and Natural Resources 1 (

a) Salaries. March 28th, 1963 Page 769

HON. CHARLES H. WITNEY (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources)(Flin Flan): Thank you very much. Mr. Chairman, I rise tonight to speak a little longer than I have normally spoken in introducing my estimates, and I hope in doing so that the words that I have to utter tonight will be of interest to the committee and that they will not find them too long.

Before starting to comment on some of the activities of the department over the past year, I would like to take the opportunity in this most important Assembly to extend my thanks and apprec iation to the staff of the department at all levels, from top to bottom, who have carried out their duties that they have been called upon to perform.

I do not believe that many people recog nize in some of the staff the long hours that they put in, the rather unusual, and the arduous, and sometimes when they are dealing with such things as night lighting, the dangerous hours that they put in, nor the fact that some of our people have to have their holidays at rather un usual times of the year, such as break-up and freeze-up or during the non-recreational periods when they are unable to be away with their families who are going to school.

And so to those people I would just like to say "thank you 11 for what they have done and for their patience with the Minister when he has made his many requests. The items that I have to speak about tonight will not reflect on every branch that comes under Mines and Natural Resources but those which I feel will be of particular interest to the committee. I am pleased to say that the downward trend in timber production which we have been coping with during the past two years, has been halted and is now on the upward trend.

During the past two years we have encountered forest fire difficulties, pl)or winter logging con ditions and low markets for pulp and saw timber, but we have shown a considerable recovery now during the latter months of this year and we are looking forward to a better picture in tim ber production. One of the encouraging factors that we have is the considerable demand which still exists for our forest inventory reports. During the year it was necessary to order an addi tional 500 of them, particularly with respect to the lowland forest

section and the southeast forest section, and during the year further data by photo

interpretation and field surveys were accumulated in connection with the development of forest management plans on the basis of sustained yield. The greater part of this work was done in the Inter lake region, and in the more northerly portions of the Inter lake region arrangements were made with surveys to obtain additional ground control for further aerial photography and base mapping which must precede forest inventory. The present type of forest inventory survey to provide management plans for the more accessible forest units is adequate for the degree of management practice.

However, it is de sirable to obtain the-information at an accelerated rate and a reduced cost, and this involves revising the present system to enable the use of data processing machines for the heavy load of data compilation. Experimental field work was carried out during the year and a new method of survey designed. Arrangements have been made with the Canada Department of Forestry to study and advise concerning the new survey techniques since it is important that the method of survey qualifies as shareable under the Canada Forestry Act agreement.

Programming details will be worked out with the Central Electronics Data Processing Bureau when the method of survey is approved. Unlike 1961, the 1962 forest fire season was lighter than normal in most areas. Heavy and frequent rains fell throughout most of the province during the months of May to early September restricting the number of fires and enabling our fire fighters to suppress them while small. However, in spite of the heavy summer rains over most of the province, the fall months were dry with little or no precipitation during September and October.

As a consequence, streams and rivers flooded in July were quite dry by freeze-up and with the limited snowfall to date In the Supplies, Renewals and Equipment we have provided more money, principally for the purchase of fire fighting equipment, and in the appropriation for fire fighting members will find another increased amount.

Last year, as in other years, the Prairie Forestry Associa tion, the television, the radio, and the press have given inestimable service to the province in the matter of forest fire prevention and I wish here in this committee to express thanks and ap preciation to them for this generous public support, and I feel I can do so not only on behalf of the department or myself, its Minister, but also on behalf of the members of this committee. also on behalf of the members of this committee. As an illustration of some of the difficulties that arose from the 161 season, we had some Page 770 March 28th, 1963

(Mr. Witney cont'd) • . • • • • 200 ground fires carried over into 1962, but we were able to put out all of them before break-up and in some cases, we had to use dynamite, We used helicop ters to advantage again during the-period of 1962 and will be utilizing helicopters again this year. The fire tower network was expanded to the point where we now have 80 field towers throughout the province. Two new ones were constructed last year, one at Long Point, another at Big Island Lake near Flin Flon, and some were moved to better locations.

This year the network will be expanded by the installation of a tower in the Turtle Mountain and also by the movement of one or two towers to better positions. I'm pleased to report to the committee that reforestation has continued at a good pace. Since 1930 planting has been continuous in this province, and since that time more than 18 1/2 million trees have been planted and some 12, 600 acres of plantations have been established.

Lately the pace has been stepped up considerably and in 1962 more than 2 million trees were planted marking the biggest tree planting year of the province, Because of abundant rainfall, the success of the 1962 planting has been good, We are now gearing for 3 million trees to be -planted this coming season and scarification of some 3, 000 acres. Barring drought conditions such as we experienced in 1961, we are well on the way to a goal of 10 million trees annually by 1970. The species we select are generally native ...... trees like spruce, jack pine and red pine. We tried a new experiment last year.

Approximately 300 acres of burned-over bushland was scarified by scalping the surface with a bulldozer, and in this way the mineral oil is. ex posed which provides a bed suitable for germinating and establishing seedlings. Scalping fur thermore sets back competing vegetation allowing the germinated seedling the degree of free dom from competition. Scalping is another of the new methods to be tried by the forest ser vice to aid in the desire to substantially increase the reforestation activities.

We are also increasing our experimentations with plus trees, or mother tree techniques such as employed in other countries and we will be testing this year fertilization on selected plantations to determine the effectiveness of such methods in relation to our circumstances here in Manitoba. We have also bought hybid trees of the poplar and lark species from Ontario and the Dropmore Nurseries near Roblin, where Dr. Skinner has performed such a high service for Manitoba and Canada and has been recognized throughout the world.

We are doing so with a view to finding a faster growing and a bett�r tree for tree farm use, particularly in the south east corner of the province �here the Flakeboard plant can utilize from 10, 000 to 12, 000 cords a year. In the field of recreation, two new provincial parks were declared during 1962; the Clear water Lake and the Grass River Park, and we now have under the shelter of the Parks Act the Whiteshell, Grand Beach, Turtle Mountain, Duck Mountain, Clearwater and Grass Lake. Others are being considered with boundaries being delineated in the Grand Rapids and the Paint Lake area.

The river system north of the Whiteshell leading down to Berens River on Lake Winnipeg was traversed by a crew this summer to assess the potentials for a form of nature or wilderness park where we would provide basically for canoeing and the more rugged type of camping. To date in Manitoba we have some 2, 700 square miles under the shelter of the Parks Act which was passed in 1960. We have some 44 roadside parks, and in public campgrounds including northern provincial parks we now number 48, and their use was increased during the past year.

In 1961, the number of people using these facilities was estimated at 69,400 where as in 1962 the estimated numbers rose to 87, 525. During the past year we were able to do considerable work in park planning to meet future needs. A consultant was engaged to report on the recreational potential of the Pembina River valley in the event that certain water control structures are proceeded with, while investiga tions were also begun on the possibility of park development in the Spruce Woods Forest Reserve.

There was the odd agreement -- we will be expanding such investigations this year through the employment of a consultant in such areas as the Shellmouth River Dam area, and also to assess the whole picture of provincial parks present and future and the best means of welding our activities with those of municipalities and non-profit organizations. In the Game Branch, we have been able to continue our wild life habitat inventory. Studies were continued during the year to complete the habitat improvement plan for the McCreary March 28th, 1963 Page 771

(Mr. Witney cont'd) ..•••. game management area. Habitat inventory projects were initiated in the Brandon Hills and in the Sand Hills south of Portage la Prairie, Intensive studies were completed to determine the effect on wild life on the proposed Assiniboine River diversion from Portage to Lake Manitoba, and a study was carried out and recommendations made regarding the effects on wild life of the proposed plans for reservoir construction in the Pembina River Valley.

Lands were purchased again during 1962 by the Lands Branch in the Delta Marsh area for waterfowl feeding sites and in the valley of the Souris River south of Wawanesa for a wild life management area which I hope will be established very soon. For the second consecutive year, approximately 15 acres of land in the Lauder Sand Hills management area were seeded down to a mixture of clover, alfalfa, wheat and oats in order to increase the ·winter food supply of deer and grouse in the area.

Favourable weather conditions produced an excellent growth on the plot, More than 3, 000 miles of flying were completed during December 1962 and January 1963 on the annual aerial moose inventory project, Large blocks of moose range were censused in the Summerberry Marsh, Cranberry Portage, Lynn Lake, North Interlake, and the Swan and Pelican Lake areas, and also the Porcupine and Duck Mountain Forest Reserves.

About 4, 000 miles of aerial big game censusing were flown in southern Manitoba in the spring of 1962, and improvements in the aerial surveys were made by changing the survey methods where necessary and by expanding the number of areas covered. Information derived from these aerial surveys form the basis for the deer, the moose and elk hunting season recommendation.

More than 400 miles of flying were carried out in the spring over woodland caribou range in order to develop a reliable censusing technicque for this specie, We also carried out a second year of an experi ment using aircraft to determine the feasibility of counting beaver houses from the air in order to arrive at the number of beaver in an area, and a ground check was made to show the accur acy of such informati_on.

Four hundred and seventy nine caribou were captured and tagged at Duck Lake in August of 162 in the fourth year of this operation, More than 1, 300 caribou have now been marked with ear tags and yellow streamers, and several records were obtained dur ing the year from animals that had been tagged in 159, 160 and 161.

An incentive payment was instituted by the Canadian Wild Life Service of one dollar for each returned tag in order to en courage the return of the tag, We continued trapping experiments to develop a practical deer trapping and tagging technique, and to learn more about deer movement in Manitoba as it affects hunters r success, winter survival and repopulation of over-hunted and winter die-out districts.

The trapping success improved during the year and a number of deer were marked with neck collars and ear tags in the Turtle Mountain, Because of the increased interest in polar bears along the Hudson's Bay coast of Manitoba a study was carried out to determine a feasible technique for censusing polar bear and to learn the basic life history of this species of animal, To give you some information on the status of wild life population; The sharp tailed grouse continued at a high level throughout most of its Manitoba range in 162< a decline in numbers in southeastern Manitoba and in the Interlake distict presumably caused by inclement weather dur ing the hatching and brood season was more than compensated for by an increase in west-central Manitoba and south-western Manitoba, Numbers of sharp tailed grouse in southwestern Mani toba increased, possibly the result of the restrictive 1961 and 162 hunting seasons in that regipn.

The duck numbers improved slightly in 1961 but they were still far below the peak years of the 1950s, The 1962 d�ck season was also below average except for the flooded farmland north of Winnipeg where excellent shooting was experienced, The goose population remained at a healthy level, and goose hunting in Manitoba was good during the fall of 1962.

The waterfowl outlet for 1963 is not favourable but more information will be obtained when the Federal-Provincial Wild �fe Conference is held later on in the year, Good populations of moose are present throughout their range in Manitoba, The harvest in 1962 should be a near record, and there's no indication that any areas of the province are over-harvested, The numbers of woodland caribou are remaining constant or showing a slight increase across the better caribou range in the carnivorous forest belts of central Manitoba, The elk range in Manitoba has been reduced by a number of factors to only remnants of its former size, but the population in the Duck Mountain which has not been subjected to a hunting Page 772 March 28th, 1963

(Mr. Witney cont1d) • • • • • • season for the past two years, has increased substantially as re vealed by recent aerial inventory. In a review of the activities of the Fisheries Branch for the year 1962, the review reveals a year of progress. A vigorous bioligical program has been instituted, new research programs undertaken, and further. studies made with respect to longer range programs.

The fish culture divison has kept faith with the demands for the day in the rearing and stocking of commercial and sport species of fish in the several areas of the province, and the fish gear research has been intensified with emphasis on trawling gear and ••.• •• and during the summer in Lake Winnipeg we experimented along with the Dominion Fisheries Experimental

Section on bottom and mid-water trawls for the potential of catching what are termed rough fish, and also their operation on the bottom of Lake Winnipeg. Depth finders have been converted to fish finders and while the experiment is still to continue, the initial results have been encouraging. We have continued with our experiments of setting trap nets under ice, and have taken on twelve commercial fishermen from Matheson Island and Pine Dock along with our own men to con tinue with this experimentation.

We have been able to catch -- the latest figures I have -- 100, 000 pounds of mariah, but our catch was lower this year because due to the unusual freeze up condition we missed the run of the mariah. Last year in scme of the trap nets set under the ice we were lifting two tons of fish after being set for only cne night. Members of the committee will realize that during the Throne Speech we advised that we wou.J,d be finding ways and means to establish .a plant for the utilization of rough· fish.

The processing of rough fish has been called for over many years, and through the Department of Industry and Commerce there have been investigations carried on as to the economic feasi bility of such operations and at all times such processing plants were found to be uneconomical, principally because the technical methods of catching these fish were such that volume could not be attained.

Since the trap nets have been in operation in Lake Winnipeg and also the exper iments in Winnipegosis and Manitoba, we have found that we have in this apparatus a volume collector of the species of fish which we call rough fish. Both of the methods -- the trap nets and the trawl nets -- have revealed that volume harvesting of rough fish can be obtained, and thus we believe that the economics of a processing plant for rough fish are now such that these plants would become economically feasible.

We have had proposals from the area of private enterprise which would combine the finances of private enterprise and government for the illatal lation of these plants. These are being considered and have been considered. No decision has .. been made, and our investigations continue. I have some figure with respect to the movement of pickerel on Lake Winnipeg which may be of interest to the committee.

The pickerel movement in Lake Winnipeg has been traced by the tagging of 3, 700 fish since 1959, and although the greatest distance between location of tagging and recapture was 225 miles, 60 percent of the pickerel were retaken within five miles of the tagging site that was in less than 75 days after tagging. In general, pickerel tagged at Sturgeon Bay were recovered in that area, and most Grand Rapids marked fish were retaken in the same region. Pickerel marked at Spider Islands were caught southwards only to Poplar River, and found north and west.

The bulk of the fish marked at Berens River were recaught in the same general area. The examination of return from pickerel that had been at large for some time after tagging showed that the fish travelled from the place of tagging an average distance of 18 to 35 miles, and ultimately returned to the area of tagging. The marking pro gram will be continued, but so far the returns have not supported the common belief that the pickerel population annually migrates en masse from the northern end of Lake Winnipeg to the southern end of Lake Winnipeg.

In Lake Winnipegosis we have planted 50 million eyed whitefish eggs on a year-to -year basis, and in between years we will b� planting eyed whitefish eggs in Lake Manitoba. That will be on alternate years. The first of an annual series of samples of a commercial whitefish catch was taken during the summer, and the continuation of these should provide perspective with which to judge the success of hatchery planting by the time that they reach catchable size. The sport fishing activity in 1962 was an outstanding one.

Reports compiled throughout the province during the summer season indicate a high degree of angling success, and some 524 master angling awards have been made for trophy fish during the fish season. During the year, a short course for fishermen was offered at the U:niversity of Manitoba through the March 28th, 1963 Page 773 I

(Mr. Witney cont'd) •••••• extension department of the university. Eighteen fishermen.of the several areas of Manitoba attended and received instruction in co-operative principles, fisher ies management, and community development. This was the first venture of the type in Mani toba, and we have been able to follow it up with a two-week course which has just concluded, with some 36 fishermen attending from all parts of Manitoba.

These men have spe�t packed hours in study and instruction on improved methods of fishing, quality control, regulations, biological studies -- the need for them and what they mean -- co-operative -principles, and fisheries management area. Throughout the year the co-operative plants that have been estab lished at Winnipegosis, Grand Rapids and Playgreen Lake were all operating and I am happy to report that success has been good to date.

The fish plant inspections with the Department of Health has continued, and we are now near the end of our three-year phased program to improve the fishing packing stations and fish processing plants in the whole of Manitoba, and we can now say that most of them, nearly all of then, can come up to the Depal,'tment of Public Health standards. The result has been a much improved quality of the fish from Manitoba lakes. Last year, during the estimates, mention was made of pollution and pollution surveys have conti nued during 1962.

Surveys in the summer of 1961 indicated that organisms living on the bottom of Lake Winnipeg included more types tolerant of pollution in the extreme southern end-of the lake, and those characteristics of pure water were more abundant northward. Last winter an intensive examination of water quality was made in the southern portion of the lake in co-opera tion with the Department of Health. Dissolved oxygen was everywhere high, and turbidity, chloride and total solids were higher along the south and west sides of the lake.

Calcium, total hardness and iron was least along the east shore and northward, and coli,fproo organisms were found mostly at the mouth of the Winnipeg River. One of the chemical conditions noted to date would be harm ful to fish, but a survey was undertaken in the fall in which the organic load of the Red River was demonstrated, and the work will continue. In the Grand Rapids forebay, a total of 5, 700 fish have been tagged, one-third where the Saskatchewan River enters Lake Winnipeg and the balance in the forebay lakes above.

The great major;lty of recaptured fish marked at the North Arm Narrows of Moose Lake were taken in the main body of Moose Lake and a few in the North Arm. Most of the recoveries of fish that had been tagged in Cedar Lake were from the same lake, although· about 9. percent were reported -from up the Saskatchewan River as far as Cumber land House. About one-quarter of the recover ies of pickerel tagged at Cross Lake had proceeded up the Saskatchewan River, and the balance had come down to Lake Winnipeg. A few recaptures of fish marked below Grand Rapids were made above the Rapids.

It has been concluded that fish in the larger lakes of the forebay display mostly local movements, but that there is some interchange between Lake Winnipeg and Cross Lake through the site of the dam. The continuing pre-impoundm ent biologicalsurvey was conducted by personnel from the University of Manitoba with financial support from the Hydro-Electric Board and assistance from the Fisheries Branch. It may be of interest to the committee to know that we are gathering all the information we can about sterlet.

Sterlet is a form of sturgeon which re produces itself after the first five years of life and regularly thereafter,

whereas the native sturgeon in Manitoba reproduces itself after the first 25 years of life and then regularly there after. If we can obtain a faster-producing sturgeon, we might be able to put it to good advantage. While speaking of the forebay I would like to draw to the attention of the committee the two year program of the Grand Rapids archaeologi cal studies. Dr. William Mayer-Oakes was the leader, and in the first year a survey was made of the area to be flooded. Thirty-nine sites were recorded of which five were formerly excavated.

Controlled digging was undertaken at a site near Tailrace Bay, and this site was reckoned to have been us"ed by almost every group of prehistoric Indians who ever lived in the Saskatchewan River valley. Some interesting and valuable material was found dating back to perhaps 3000 B. C. In the second year further dig ging was conducted at Tailrace Bay,and the site became a major archaeological excavation instead of a salvage operation. Reconnaisance work was done in other areas of the forebay. It is be lieved, however ,that Tailrace Bay produced everything that any other site could produce.

It was not practical nor necessary to dig the 39 sites. Several good samples were enough. A number of thousand pieces of excavated material are being cleaned, labelled, recorded and studied now, and a final publishable report is now being prepared by Dr. Mayer-Oakes. This report will Page 774 March 28th, 1963 I

(Mr. Witney cont1d) .••••• probably be ready by about June. In the Mines Branch, the value of mineral production in 1962 established a new high, re cording an estimated increase of approximately $58 million over the previous year. Prospecting and development operations continued at the high level of recent years, and the number of min ing claims recorded showed and increase of more than $1, 000 over the previous year. Investiga tion of industrial minerals also continued to attract a high level of attention.

The Western Peat Company Limited continued the development of a second peat location south of its present opera tion at Julian. However, the work was hampered by heavy spring and summer rain. The Mines Branch also commenced an investigation of the peat bogs in the south-eastern portion of Mani toba, with a view to locating additional sources of high quality spagnum moss. The Mines Branch placed six geological crews in the field during the 1962 field season, and this year we will be placing an additional crew to make a total of seven.

The 1962 portion of the 3-year joint federal provincial aero-magnetic survey was completed, and an area of some 30, 000 square miles between Thompson and Lynn Lake has been flown and the maps resulting from this work will be released early in 1963. The second phase of some 30, 000 square miles will be continued this summer. One of the events of 1962 was the extension of the search for oil and natural gas to the north by the granting of 12 exploration permits to Sogepet Limited, covering some half a million acres along the shore of Hudson 1s Bay between Cape Tatnam and the Ontario boundary.

Permits for an additional!, 800, 000 acres under the waters of Hudson's Bay and adjacent to the Manitoba ·per mit areas were issued to the same company by the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources. An aero-magnetic survey of the permit areas was commenced early in January 1963, and it is anticipated that the results of the survey will justify the drilling of one or more holes to test the stratographic section.

In order to. encourage the exploration program and to ease administration problems in the Hudson Bay area, regulations for the Far North were prepared, based upon the Canada Oil and Gas Lines regulations. To further assist in .the exploration pro gram, since the total permit area to. be explored encompasses provincial and federal juristliction, it was agreed that the province would act more or less as a post office, and a member of the Mines Branch was appointed as agent of the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resour ces.

One of the production events of the year was the formation of the North Virden-Scallion Unit No. 1, effective August 1; 1962, involving 217 oil wells and nine salt water disposal wells in the North Virden-Scallion field. The unitization provides for the operation of the unit area without regard to lease boundaries and so on, and in effect one large lease operated by the unit operator, the California Standards Company. Secondary oil recovery by water flooding is ex pected to increase the ultimate recovery from the unit area by an additional 30 million barrels.

The first phase of the water flood, consisting of a water injection system, which distributes water from a central water injection plant through high pressure pipe line to 11 oil wells which have been converted to water injection, is now in operation. This recovery program will have the immediate effect of curtailing production slightly in that producing oil wells have been con verted to water injection. However, by mid-year the effect of the water flood should be re flected in the arresting of the normal well decline and in an increase in over-all production.

The phase (2) engineering studies are proceeding, and it is expected that injection in the north-. ern part of the unit area will be commenced before November of 163. The bringing into production of a well in the Souris-Hartney area on November 28, 1962, by the Texaco Exploration Company sparked an upsurge in oil exploration and production. Since that time, in the months of December, January and February, .20 wells have been drilled, of which ten are producers.

In the Souris-Hartney area, now officially designated a field, ten wells have been drilled and three wells are actually on production; six wells are waiting on completion of surface installation, and to date only one dry hole has been drilled. The discovery well has produced an average of approximately 32 barrels per day by the end of February. The second well has maintained about the same average for 32 days. We have no report as yet on the third well.

The Department has requested industry to take a critical look at the. legislation and regulations pertaining to the exploration for and the development of oil and natural gas. Both the Canadian Petroleum Association and the Independent Petroleum Association of Canada have set up committees for this purpose, and we expect to receive briefs from both these March 28th, 1963 Page 775

(Mr. Witney cont1d) .•••• associations in the near future. These briefs will be considered and discussed with industry following which any changes in legislation and regulations con sidered necessary to facilitate the exploration for and the development of oil and natural gas will be considered. I swing right across to the Lands Branch now in reporting to you tonight, and wish to speak to you about Crown lands, sales from it and leased. The custody and control of Crown lands and school lands came under provincial jurisdiction with the transfer of natural resources to Manitoba in 1930.

The policy approved at that time was to discontinue granting homesteads and to offer land by sale, lease or permit. Sales of forested lands, barren lands and the more poorly drained lands, were restricted. There has been little change in this policy throughout the years with the exception that in the last several years more restrictions have been placed on the sales of marginal land. By 1958 large acreages of land had been sold or homesteaded to farmers for cultivation where the best use was for hay and grazing or wild life.

At that time, about 400, 000 acres of these lands had reverted by tax sale to local government districts. Sales totalling 1,296 involving 180, 425 acres sold by the Crown have been cancelled over the period 1931 to 1962. Additional and probably marginal value acreage, the extent of which is un known to us, fell back by tax sale into the hands of the organized municipalities. Settlement of these loans had failed at high cost, not only in services such as roads, schools, drains but at serious loss to the settler who had to abandon the land.

To prevent a recurrence of this sit uation the government placed a temporary ban on the sale of local government district lands. The Land Utilization Board of the Lands Branch was asked to consider with the most ex tremecare any recommendations it might see fit to makefor the sale of Crown Lands, and as well . to examine local government district lands for possible resale after the same kind of careful study. Since 1931, 6, 220 parcels of Crown land have been sold, or approximately one million acres. Subject to reviewal by the Land Utilization Board, the sales of local government lands have been recommenced.

The Crown Lands Act already provides that Crown lands may be leased for a period not exceeding 21 years. It also provides for the issue of annual permits for use of Crown lands. Presently there are in force 57 ten-year leases involving approximately 89, 000 acres used for ranching. These leased lands are subject to local taxati-on if in taxing jurisdiction. Annual permits, on the other hand, require the fixed payment of 50 percent of the permit fee as taxes in lieu of local government district or other municipal taxation.

With rising taxation, long-term leases are proving less and less attractive and people will continue to swing to the cheaper tax haven of our annual renewable hay and grazing permits. On the other hand, ordinary annual hay permits issued for casual hay needs are not renewable and half the permit fee is collected by us and paid in lieu of taxes. Now what are the problems? One, there is a growing need for grazing land.

Two, present long-term leases are falling into disuse since our short-term leases require the payment of lesser taxation, Three, the present uniform grazing rates take no account of the differing graz ing capacity of different sections of land. Four, the discrepancies between the different tax liabilities for Crown land versus local government district versus municipal land is becoming so widespread as to be the cause of much difficulty for municipal organizations throughout the province.

Five, the province itself as a landlord and trustee for all the people of Manitoba, should be collecting rent for Crown land that bears some relationship to the value of the land to a normal and willing user. Six, tenure should be long enough to allow people to improve the land as well as to erect useful fixtures. Research has been carried on. The Lands Branch, in close consultation with the Depart ment of Agriculture, has made an extensive investigation of the utilization of Ma nitoba grass land.

As a result, it is recommended that grassland be evaluate'd on the basis of its carrying capacity or forage value, to be used as a basis for rental. By arrangements with the Soil Surveys of Manitoba the department maintains soil survey parties during summer months on soil surveys in the so-called fringe areas of the province where the land is predominantly Crown land and has multiple land uses. In a special five-year study of southeastern Manitoba, boundaries were delineated showing appropriate land use areas.

Crown and private lands have been exchanged to mutual benfit, and a clear policy based on the land use classification studies has been developed. Many of the concepts of the new national ARDA plan are similar to those developed by Manitoba in our work on the southeast region of the province. With the completion Page 776 March 28th, 1963

(Mr. Witney cont 'd) . • • • • • • of studies that are proposed under ARDA, land use policy decisions will be ma de with respect to ARDA areas in the province. Those areas not covered by ARDA studies will require the same kind of grazing capa city evaluation by the Lands Branch with the help of the Department of Agriculture. Crown lands will be sold and, where approved by the Land Utilization Board, for arable agricultural purposes . . In dealing with Crown land leases and permits for hay and grazing, we have the present type of disposition.

Presently there are 57 long-term leases involving approximately 89, 000 acres being used for hay and grazing. In annual hay and grazing permits, as long-term leases have fallen into disus e, annu al permits are issued for the combined hay and grazing rights which may be renewed by the permittee from year to year providing application has been made by October 31st for the ensuing year . The annual fee is set at a minimum of $16. 50 per quarter section, which is made up of $10. 00 as grazing fee, one half of this am ount, $5.0 0 in lieu of taxes, and administra tion charge of $1 . 50.

Under this permit it is possi ble for the permittee to be granted permssion to fence and improve t)le watering facilities, but no provision is made for the development of grassl and, and the lands are subject to sale during the off-grazing season. In the event that one or more persons are interested in the rights to any one parcel and previous permits have not been renewed by the specified date, they may be offered by tender, and the successf ul applicant is norm ally the highest bidder.

The special hay permit is a renewable annual permit which is issued to the continuous user to cut hay at a specific rate from year to year. The fee is at a rate of 25 cents per ton and if in a taxation jurisdict ion an additional one half of the fee is collected as taxes. The ordin ary hay permit is issued annually to provide fox: casual hay requirements from time to time, and is no t renewable, and is offered; by tender when more than one person has applied. Taxes are the same as in special hay permits. The permits issued in the past four years for hay and grazing.

In 1959, for grazing 2, 079, ordinary hay 1, 370, special hay 288, for a total of 3, 737. In 1960, grazing 2, 126, ordinary hay 1, 286, special hay 272, for a total of 3, 684. In 1961, grazing 2, 585, ordinary hay 2, 850, special hay 37l ,for a total of 5, 806; and in 1962, grazing 3, 066, ordinary hay 2, 274, special hay 487, for a total of 5, 827. And now I wish to draw to your attention the proposed type of disposition. Arable Crown land will continue to be considered for sale.

All Crown grassl ands classed as hay or gra zing land will be withheld from sale and be available for dispostion only by lease or permit. We will have a ranch-type of grazing lease, which would be a ten-year lease renewable after an eight year period for those who require large holdings under native grass vegetation. This land would be used for the exclusive support of livestock on which the ranch-type operator depends for con tinuance of his prime enterprise .

It would provide that he may get the approval of the Minister to carry out perm anent improvem ent for development of the productivity of the land for grazing and fodder. This lease provides for an anci llary lease of a portion of the ranch to run concur rently with the lease wherebe may develop such other perm anent improvem ents as he requires and are approved by the Minister. It is proposed that the ma ximum acreage under any one such lease should support no more than 500 animal units.

The farm-type grazing lease would be a five-year lease with a renewable clause and de si gned for the farmer -type of operator who may want to carry out forage and fodder improve ments, and principle am ong the proposed conditions for these two types of leases -- one, that the rental fee is to be fixed on an annually adjusted sliding sca le based on the price of beef and the productivity of the leased acreage . The use of the price of beef and the productivity of the leased acreage as major factors· in the proposed formula was discussed and arrived at in close consu ltation with the Department of Agriculture .

Similar factors are used in Crown land rentals for hay and grazing in Al berta and Saskatchewan. The formula ca lls for a rent of five percent of the value of the average seaso nal gain in non-tax areas of the province and sev en and a half percent In taxing jurisdictio ns . In municipalit ies, local government or other tax areas the additional two and a half percent will be levied in lieu of taxes. Secondly -- that ass ignments .. �. may be ma de with the approval of the Minister.

No provision is to be made for sub-leasing. • And three -- provision that the lessee might sell or otherwise dispose of his equity in improve ments on termination of the lease. We will aso provide for an ordinary annual grazing permit and this permit will be for casual grazing needs ; does not have renewal rights and taxes and fees will be levied as in the formula that I mentioned for the ranc h-type grazing lease or the March 28th, 1963 Page 777

(Mr. Witney cont1d) .••• •• farmer-operator-type of grazing lease. We will provide for an annual special hay permit. It will be a permit issued to the contin uous user and includes renewal rights. The fees are at a rate per ton based at five cents per ton for each $1. 00 per 100 pounds of beef. In taxation jurisdictions, an additional half fee will be collected in lieu of taxes, and we will provide also for an annual ordinary hay permit -- a per mit issued for casual hay requirements. It does not have renewal rights and provides for fees and taxes as in the special hay permit.

To administer it, we propose that advisory to the Minister, in the administration of Crown lands, shall be the Land Utilization Board whose functions with respect to such lands shall be to recommend appropriate utilization; disposition, including sale, leasing, reserva tion or other forms ·of use; acquisition of land as required; classification of grasslands; and such other duties as may from time to time be required qf it by the Minister. The Board will be comprised of officials of the Department of Mines and Natural Resources, Agriculture and Municipal Affairs.

For uniformity, and equality of treatment, it is proposed to bring all Crown land, including forest reserve lands, park lands, and other lands controlled or reserved by the Crown, as well as local government district land, under the terms and conditions that have been outlined for grazing and hay leases or permits. The method used in setting the annual rental fee for leases and permits is by a. formula - the carrying capacity multiplied by five percent average gain multiplied by the average price of beef.

The carrying capacity is the number of animal units which may be graced on a parcel of land during the five month grazing season each year. Five percent average gain is 1. 5 pounds per day or 225 pounds during the five month grazing season each year. The average price of beef is the average price of beef for the six month period ending October 31st in the previous year, but does not include select grades for cows. To give you an indication of what this might mean -- a carrying capacity in animal units of less than eight, the rental for a quar ter

section annually, in areas without a tax levy, $13. 50, and in areas with a tax levy, 50 per cent of the basic fee added or two and a half percent collected in lieu of taxes, $20. 25 total compared with the PFRA pasture annual rental equivalent, pasture rates at four and a half cents per day converted to quarter sections of $32. 40; a carrying capacity in animal units of 8 to 13, the areas without tax levy $24. 75; for the areas with tax levy, total $37 .1 2; compared with $59. 40 for the PFRA pasture.

In areas where the carrying capacity in animal units of 14 to 19, the areas without tax levy $38. 25; the areas with tax levy, total $57. 37 ; and the equiv alent in the PFRA pastures, $86. 40. And carrying capacity in animal units of 20 or more ; in the areas without tax levy, $49. 50; in the areas with tax levy total $74. 25; and the equivalent in the PFRA pastures $11 8. 80. I have come to the end, Mr. Chairman, of a much longer statement on my estimates than usual.

I trust that. it has been an interesting one, and I trust that I will be able to answer all the questions that will be tossed my way. continued on next page. Page 778 March · 28th, 1963 I

MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, I want to compliment the Minister on the very in formative, interesting and complete report -- it's a really good one, and trere was very much information in that discourse that was of value to all of us and will be looked upon by the peo ple of the Province of Manitoba as most informative. I was glad to hear that the forestry de partment were able to do away with the potential dangers of our ground fires that were left over from the 1961 season, and I want to commend them on doing a very good job.

These were real dangers and the fact that the branch did concentrate on them no doUbt saved us from fur ther fires this last summer ; I think I'll more or less follow the same trend that the Honourable Minister did , in deal ing with the branches as they come up. Insofar as our forests are concerned, Mr. Chairman, I've said this many times on the floor of the House and want to repeat it today, that the Pro vince of Manitoba would be a very dreary place if it were not for our forests.

These forests in their early days of the province supplied us with our homes , our railroads, our bridges, in fact without them I doubt whether we coUld have the settlement that we now en joy in the Province of Manitoba, and the forests will continue to be important to us in many ways . They are a source of labour, and they continue to be a source of much needed material for construction, and I think we can't emphasize the importance of our timber resources.

I'm glad to see that new programs are being started to assist regeneration and I' m glad to hear of the planting pro gram that the department has undertaken . Both of these are commendable projects, and I'm glad to see that they're being expanded as I have .often wished that they wouid. Now besides our forests being economically important to us , they are also important in many othar ways . They are important in that they give .us our recreational areas .

They're important as a habi: tant for our game, and also in the way of water conservation, and you can't overemphasize the necessity of continuing out forests on the sustained yield basis . While I'm on forests, Mr. Chairman, I woUld like to draw one thing to the Minister's at tention. He didn't report to us as to the amount of timber that was taken out of the burnt-over area .in the Duck Mountains. If he did, I didn't hear. But my understanding is that a consider able amount of timber has been taken out of the burnt-out areas, but not as much as some of us wotild have liked to have s'een taken out.

Now, I understand there are limited markets for the lumber that comes out of that particular area. There are also limited markets for our pulpwood, but I believe that we'r e overlooking one phase of the marketing of our pulpwood that shoUld be looked intO , and that is the agreement that the province has with the Manitoba Paper Company. I haven't seen this agreement lately, but if my recollection serves me right, there is a provision in that agreement that the Manitoba Paper Company is to take a certain amount of pUlpwood products from outside its own holdings.

Now, a short while ago, I'd say probably within the last two years , the Manitoba Paper Company just about discontinued pur cliasing pUlpwood in the area north and west of Dauphin. They had an agent in there, a purchas ing agent, for quite a number of years , and they have discontinued this. My understanding is that insofar as -the burnt-over areas are concerned they are very reluctant tb make any pur-' chases, and I believe, Mr .

Chairman, that if there isn't a provision in that agreement which wotild give the Minister a little more power than just influence, I wotild suggest that he use it, because these burnt-over timbers will be valueless in the not too distant future because of rot and insects and so forth, and while there's a will tb take them out, I thi:b.k that we shoUld use every effort to see that as much of that burnt-over timber is removed as is possible .

This not only will salvage some of the timber, but it also gives employment to a lot of people that have for many many years been dependent upon extra income from this type of work. Now, insofar as our recreational areas are concerned in our forest reserves and else where , I'm glad to see that progress is being made. l think the money spent in creating these ·r ecreational areas is money well spent. It not only gives our inhabitants, the people of the province , a place to go to during their holidays where they can relax and enjoy nature, but it also is a drawing card insofar as our tourist trade is concerned.

I. have noticed a continuous increase in the numbers coming from across the line to our various recreational areas, and I'm quite sure that this particUlar trend will continue as long as we have the proper facilities for them and make surroundings the kind that we woUld like to see them ourselves . Now, insofar as our wild-life is concerned, several things have -been drawn to my atten,.. tion during the last year, and some of which I've seen myself. I do want to, before I enter into March 28th, 1963 Page 779

(Mr. Hryhorczuk, cont'd. ) .••. that branch, I do want to compliment the Game and Fish Association for the wonderful work they're doing, especially Mr . Paul Murphy, who has made a great contribution to the development of the Association. A great many ideas that have been adopted by the last government and this government ori ginated with theAssociation, and it's certainly nice to have a group of men so interested in our wild life, dedicated many of them are, and before making any recommendations, they give the recommendations a great deal of consideration, and they're worthwhile listening to .

I have noticed that in our big game popula tion in the Duck Mountain Forest Reserve, during the last winter season of moose that hunters had killed aniinals which were found to be diseased. I am given to understand -- I didn •t see these animals myself -- but I was given to understand that the field men picked up some of these carcasses and I would like to have a report from the Minister if they were able to find what brought about the deaths of the, or the disease, because they weren't dead when found, they were shot and then found to be sickly and they were left there and this was reported to the field men.

Whether that was caused by the fires of 1961 or some other reason I do not know, but the information I received from quite a number of hunters is that the quality of moose and the ducks last winter was not what it had been in the past. Insofar as our elk population is concerned, it's very noticeable that the herds are on the increase , but the herds not staying within the forest reserve. Very early last fall quite a number of herds were seen outside the forest reserve, and I haven't heard any reasons for this exodus, if we may call them that coming out of the reserves.

However there is the possi bility that in certain areas the elk are receiving too much competition from cattle. The elk differs from the other big game animals in that it is not a browser of brush as much as moose and deer and it paws for its feed in hay meadows and so forth, and there is a possibility that over-grazing and probably cutting of hay meadows for domestic use has encroached upon the natural habitat of our elk and are forcing them out of the mountain. There's no doubt that the mountain as it is could carry a much greater herd-than there is in there at the present time.

The numbers could be increased considerably and I think we should take a very close look to see what has happened. In our particular area, the deer population has been on the decrease. I had the opportunity of travelling through an area last deer hunt that used to be one of the best deer areas in the country, and after covering, I'd say oh anywheres from 25 to 35 miles in this particular area, we did not run across a single animal or a single fresh track of a deer. What brought that on I don't know. This is adjacent also to a fire area in 1961, and may be respon sible for it.

Insofar as party licenses are concerned, I would have liked a report on what has happen ed insofar as party licenses , deer licenses are concerned, to see whether more game has been taken because of the licenses or whether there's no noticeable difference. My own experience -- I very seldom went through a season without bagging my deer , but during the last two sea- , sons I happened to have a party license and I didn't get any deer. Now· whether that has any thing to do with it or not I don't know. Maybe, (interje ction) well, but I had the party to help me, and they weren't even able to give me any hand.

A MEMBER: Who was the party? MR. HRYHORCZUK: A good bunch of hunters, better than you can find anywhere south of Ethelbert. I would suggest to the Minister to give consideration to a party hunting license for moose in the trophy season. These seasons are open, I believe the primary reasons for their being open is the fact that the areas are over-populated, and it's good business to keep the population down within the limits of feed in that particular area. Now these are areas that are not easily accessible. It's expensive to go in for your moose in to most of these areas.

It takes a lot of preparation and I don't think that anything'd be lost, probably something gained, if a party license were allowed for the moose trophy season. As to bird life , I have noticed that the increase in what we call the prairie chicken is continuing. There was considerable destruction of course during 1961 by fire. The Upland bird is coming back and for the first time I've noticed considerable Hungarian partridge around · which just about disappeared for awhile. Now, Mr.

Chairman, insofar as our Fisheries Branch is concerned , we can divide that into the two fields: the first of angling, and the other commercial. The lakes that have been stocked that I have had the pleasure of fishing are standing up well , and I can say that the Page 780 March 28th, 1963

(Mr . Hryhorczuk, con t•d.) •••• stocking and restocking is not quite keeping pace with the de mand of anglers , but it is more or less satisfactory •. There's still room for a lot of improve ment, and I know this can't be done overnight. Several of the lakes in the Duck Mountain Forest Reserve have been poisoned out for the purpose of restocking them with a better species of fish; and I think this is a good program , providing that they are restocked with sufficient numbers of fish.

There are a great number of anglers , especially family units that come into these areas; they take out their children, and they go out on these lakes . They're not too particular what species of fish they catch, as long as they are fish, and it would be much better if we had the native fish plenty of them than if we had stock fish with very few fish to replace the native fish in some of these lakes . It might be wise to leave some of these lakes to the native fish such as perch and pike.

As I say, there are a great many people that are not too concerned what type of fish they get as long as they get a fish when they get out in the boat and do some fishing. Insofar as our commercial fishing is concerned, I think that we are still very weak in this respect. If there is a weakness in this department, that's where it is found. Now, I don't want to imply by that, Mr . Chairman, that the department isn't trying. I know they are, but I think a great deal more effort will have to be put into this field.

The idea of trap nets may be all right, but there's one disadvantage to that and the Minister should always bear this in mind, that we have a great number of people living alongside of these lakes who settle there, and since settling have been dependent more or less on being able to obtain a license and do some fishing. Now, the trap net is out of reach, the cost of a trap net, is out of reach of these peo ple altogether.

What I'm afraid is going to happen here is that if you bring in the trap nets and you put them on a large scale , that the only people that could buy them, make use of them, are people with a lot of money. I know that these trap nets will probably employ a few people , but they certainly wouldn't employ all those that are dependent upon fishing at the present day. And I'm not talking about the part-time fishermen; I'm talking about the men, the families that de pend on fishing around our big lakes such as Winnipegosis, Lake Manitoba and Lake Winnipeg. It appears , Mr.

Chairman, that we still haven't found the answer to the fluctuation of the number of fish in individual lakes . My understanding is that a given body of water can support a given poundage of fish, and we know that in all of our lakes in Manitoba, there was a time when there were a great many more fish than there are today. Now, I'm one of those that I don't believe that our lakes have been over-fished and that the numbers have been depleted through fishing.

I am more inclined to believe that the reproduction facilities have either been destroyed by nature and that_ our fish are not reproducing to the point that they could, and I think that where we've fallen down is in our natural streams . We've done nothing to try to maintain them as they were in the years gone by and the fish haven't the place to spawn. There's no doubt at all that if a lake sustained a certain number of fish, say 4, 5, or 10 or 20 years ago, and if the water level is the same , there's no reason why that lake could not sustain the same numbers .

Our fish naturally can reproduce in the hundreds of thousands per unit, and from that I gather there should be no difficulty for them to keep the numbers of our fish at a fairly steady level -- unless they have lost their natural spawning grounds . And there's no question that they have , Mr . Chairman. We know that in many of these rivers , when the fish go off to spawn, that the fry are trapped there and just virtually millions of small fingerlings and fry die outdoor in the winter in suffocation where the water's dropped down. Probably a series of dams along these rivers would answer the problem .

There's also the fact that our forests have been denuded. We have a lot of silt running into ·the various streams from our cultivated lands . The run-off is fast -- maybe this has had something to do with it. Whatever it is, I think that we should put in a great deal more effort into finding out how we can maintain the population in our lakes . I was glad to hear the honour able minister mention that they put in 15 million whitefish eyes , I believe, into Lake Winnipeg osis . Even in my time , Mr . Chairman, Lake Winnipegosis was noted for its whitefish.

For so:me reason or other, they just are not there any more . Now, I've heard a lot of explanations for this, and one of the explanations was that there's a change in the climate . We've heard about our cod on the Atlantic coast being caught a thousand and more miles further north than they were within the last 25 yea rs . Probably there is something in that. If this experiment works then we'll know it isn't the change in climate . We'll have to come back to the same answer and that is lack of reproduction and I think we can't stresr;� the necessity for studying March 28th, 1963 Page 781

(Mr. Hryhorczuk, cont'd.) .• •• the question of reproduction as much as we can. I also want to compliment the Minister on the establishment of the various rough fish processing plants that he has in mind and which have already been started.

I think this is good, but I'd also like to mention to the Minister that there is the possibility that our roughfish supply the food for our better species of fish and we'll have to watch that balance pretty carefully be cause I think that nature has a way of balancing itself and when man interferes , unless he is careful in the manner in which he interferes , he could make it pretty rough., not only for the rough fish, but for himself. Now, Mr.

Chairman, insofar as the Crown lands are concerned, I am glad to hear that the government at last has a policy and I want to say that I have not too much to quarrel with insofar as the policy that has been enunciated by the Minister tonight is concerned. I have some reservations and although I didn't have an opportunity to digest everything the Minister said, I would like to draw a few things to his attention. I would like to see priority on sales and graz ing privileges made to res ident farmers .

I would like to see a good balance, a good relationship between the costs of grazing in the community pastures as compared with the lease. I didn't have a chance to listen to those figures and had no chance to compare the figures as they were given by the Minister. I would also like to point out, arid I don't want to get into a discussion with what I did hear a short while ago during the Session, but I do want to mention briefly, Mr.

Chairman, that it is most unfortunate that a lot of our people were settled on marginal and sub marginal lands when they first came into this country, but I want to remind the committee that at that time there was no alternative. It was unfortunate. but it was necessary at that time . During the past 50 years , 60 years , great c]W.nges have been made, not ·only in farming but throughout the whole of our economy, our thinking and everything else, and I would like to see every consideration given to these people who settled on these lands a half a century ago arid now find themselves in difficulties .

I would like to see the department and the government give them every consideration before they are asked to move. I think that one thing should be kept in mind is that these people have contributed a great deal to the development of the province throughout the years . So have their families. And if it's a case of where you have to move, make sure that you do not move them until you have first found a way of re-establishing.,them properly.

Insofar as the policies of leasing and selling and so forth are concerned, from what I gathered by listening to the Minister I want to repeat that· I think that the policies are good. I wouldn't want to give them 100 percent approval until I've had a little more time to study them. In conclusion all I can say to the Minister is keep up the good work but at the same time put a little more pressure in the right places and see if we can't even come up with a better. record next ye ar. · MR. GRAY : Mr .

Chairman, I got the kind permission of the Honourable Member from Seven Oaks who is going to speak on the general situation of the Minister's Department, but I'd like to ask two or three questions before that so the Minister when replying could also in clude this . We have placed on our desk today "Less Fresh Water Fish.

" The writer of this booklet, unfortunately perhaps, has not investigated the high cost to the consumer of any kind of fish produced by the fishermen in this province and we see that the production of last year - by the way the report is a year old, it may have been changed -- but the fishermen have produced over $5 million of fish in the year of 196 1, but at the same time they only received about $2 1/2 million-- no about $3 million. The question is, where did the other 2 1/2 million disappear. In other words , they only received about half of the labor and the price is still high.

Is there any remedy at all to see that this $2 1/2 million which the fishermen get less than they produce could be detected and remedied, because after all we all realize that fish is. very healthy, very tasty, people wish to use it, but the price is almost prohibitive. 'It's just as high as a steak in a restaurant today. In order to encourage the use of fish I think perhaps we could find out where the other $2 1/2 million disappeared and whether at le� part of it could not be placed to reduce the price to the consumer .

My second question is this: We dispose of our forests to industries and many trees are lost by fires. I wonder whether the program of reforestation can be met by the. amount of for est products used and destroyed. Is the program sufficient that we don't run in a loss of fores tation because it takes a long time for a tree to grow , and unless we commence immediately we may lose part of the products that comes out from trees arid forests . As an example, in Israel Page 782 March 28th, 1963 I

(Mr. Gray, cont' d.) . . . . they are planting now millions and millions of trees on the hills or in any place that cannot be cultivated for anything else, because they realize the importance of it. All the trees had been destroyed prior to Israel becoming a state and they found out and they realized the great importance . Here nature or Providence has given us a forest to use for commercial use and also for prevention and also for future generation. As I stated before , it takes a long time for a tree to grow.

My third question is this: You have given us figures of increased mining activities in the millions and then I see that all we have received in the field of royalties -- and this amount also includes all the money received for permits and everything else -- only about a million and a half. Now we have taken the gift of Providence given to this province of mines , oil and anything else that they now exploit, and develop perhaps , but they exploit.

Why cannot the province that has so much responsibilities which is not being covered, human responsibilities , get something from those -- I wouldn't call them exploiters -- but from those who have this and develop, it's true with their money, but at the same time they are getting such a grea t profit out of it and we are still on the same royalty basis as we have been for years, otherwise the amount would be increased to more than a million and a half dollars.

This is the total rev enue unless I reacj. wrong but you'll correct me . -- (Interjection) -- That includes , as I said, everything; not only the royalties but includes also the other revenue which this department gets . And I think perhaps sooner or later we'll have to do it. Why not do it gradually right now. I think it's wrong when the province is so much in need of money for health, for educa tion, for other important items . The money is there because , unless I'm wrong, they deduct first all the expense they've had in est ablishing a plant, a mining plant somewhere -- may run in millions.

Then they're allowed to pay all the salaries and perhaps fancy salaries to the ad ministrators or to the shareholders; and then they are allowed to save a certain amount of money; and then they give us -- what is it , 8 percent now -- I don't !mow exactly but I think it's 8 percent -- then they give us only 8 percent on their almost net profits . So I'd like some ex planation on this and how we could remedy it. This is about the three main questions which interest me and, as I said, we'll still dis cuss it under different items , but in .view -- (Recording failure, 5-10 seconds) -- to remedy the situation.

They have given us a lot of figures , the progress and everything else, but this is something which interests me. This is only a form of a question and not in the form of criticism because somebody else .•.•..•. MR. WRIGHT: Mr. Chairman, I think I would.like to start out and say a few words on this by using the key note of conservation. The other two honourable members started off with forests . I think I would like to do the same. In Kildonan Park Pavillion, there is a stump of a burr oak that is over 200 years old.

They have removed this tree from the parking lot of Kildonan Park and then, having taken the tree down, I think they were impressed by the age of it, by the rings , and it 's worthwhile going to see because they have it all varnished and from each ring they have a ribbon and at the end of this ribbon there is a statement . For instance , when the Selkirk Settlers got here in 1812 , this burr oak was already a large tree . That's quite an amazing thing in my opinion.

Conservation is a way of life, and I would like to read an excerpt here from the Prairie Provinces Forestry Assoc iation's Message from the Chairman with regard to tree planting. He says that, and I quote. "Our goal is to have conservation accepted by every citizen, young and old, as a way of life, accepting a personal responsibility in seeing that our renewable re so urces are wisely use d. " Picking up the Royal Bank newsletter of a month or so ago, there's an

article there on conservation too. "The meaning of" -- and I'm quoting again Mr. Chairman, "The meaning of conservation, say at colleges firmly, is not preserving everything but working to keep things in balance. The physical requirements of society must be met from the resources of the natural world, but met in a way which, while fulfilling the needs of the present , will as sure the maintenance of rese rve for the future , making the world a better place, in which human beings may live, involves making the world a better place for all living organism s.

Personal conscience" -- says the writer -- "is the beginning of conservation . This application of person al conscience should not await the onslaught of a gigantic crisis in the resource su pply. It should begin in childhood and grow with maturity and under standing until conservation becomes a way of life. There is , in Canada, a small dedicate d band of resource specialists and another March 28th, 1963 Page 783

· (Mr. Wright, cont'd.) •.•• band on non-specialist nature lovers . Upon these people falls the task of informing the public so that large numbers of people will understand the urgency of the issu es ." I think that here , I would pay my respects to the various fish and game associa tions and conservationists in general who are doing much to see that this is , or this will be still a better place in which to live. I notice that we also have a society now, you've heard of Ducks Unlimited, but I understand now we have a society called Wild Gobblers Unlimited.

The aim of this society is to protect, to make sure that this wild turkey doesn't-become extinct. I had never heard of it before and I thought that this was worth mentioning here. I would like to know, Mr. Chairman, what happened to the Federal Government's policy of paying farmers for improving pot holes. Reading from an

article in the Tribune of February 19 61, "A suggestion that prairie farmers be paid to put up with the nuisances of wild ducks was going to be tried out by the Federal Government, Resources Minister Dinsdale said Saturday. It would involve a modest payment to land owners who agreed not to drain wet lands used by nesting flocks and to farmers willing to. set aside small tracts of. grain for duck food. Mr. Dins., da le said the steady draining of western sloughs and potholes had a se rious effect on duck nest ing.

" The minister did not spell out the details of the payments pro grain, and I'm surprised, that now we're going to have an election next month, that this hasn't been given more publicity. I mention it here in passing, Mr . Chairman. 1961 was a year of tragedy as far as our forests were concerned. I'm glad to note that last year we had considera ble moisture and much cleaning up took place by the department in regard to this disastrous fire.

I'm interested to know if the Ministe r has had any more infor mation on the use of infra-red rays in detecting smouldering forest fires -- the kind that are not easily visible by the tower system . I believe the Minister is aware of this -- where infra red devices were demonstrated at Ottawa meetings . They're so sensitive to heat that they can detect and be activated by the heat from the palm of a hand at 2, 000 feet.

I understand there's so me problem in regard to the weight of this equipment, but I would be interested in having the Ministe r reply, perhaps a little later, to this use of infra-red in detecting forest fires. We await with interest the report of the firearms safety committee . I'm not just too sure of the exact wording of it , because firearms safety is becoming a very important problem for Manitobans .

I think that we're encouraging our youth to get out into the forests , and that' s the way it should be, but it seemed to me that to go to the United States to get someone to advise us on firearms safety when we have so many bushmen and people -- nature lovers in this coun try, to me it seems like going to Jamaica for a hockey coach . I'm sorry to say, Mr. Chairman, that our fishing revenues were down and taking the lakes in the job lots , some $1, 280 , 000, then the price for pickerel which is one of the choicest fish for Manitoba waters, was down 25 percent.

This must, I'm sure have raised havoc with our fish ermen. I would like the Mini ster to answer why, with muskrat furs now demanding good prices and muskrat -- I notice where muskrat furs were now in third place in the annual report, and in the report it shows $15 .0 0 revenue from muskrat farming permits. Permits there's a rea son for this , Mr . Chair man, but I would like to know, in a province like Manitoba that has so much marsh land, why we haven't more muskrat farm. It would be in teresting for the Minister to explain that.

I think that the department should be congratulated for the work it has done in providing recreational sites for our people. I think it's a great step forward, a long step forward. When you go out now with the family in the car , you find many facilities that were not there a very few years before.

I notice that in the air service , the Manitoba Government Air Service , where they're do ing noble work with -- and I am amazed at the amount of services that they extend from one de partment to the other -- and I notice that they did fly 38 persons , emergency cases from the · north, into hospitals in the urban areas . I think they're to be commended that they are always available for this emergency work. I said this afternoon though I think the government should have its own air service which would relieve this department of having to jump in and do this work when called upon.

I went on a trip to Churchill last summer. It was a real education for me , because I think, if I were asked to describe the most interesting thing that took place between here and Page 764 March 28th, 1963 I

(Mr . Wright, cont'd.) •..• and Churchill and return, I would have to say that my interest in the Pasque area probably was the greatest. I was amazed to find such fertile land in that area. I understand that for centuries the Saskatchewan River has been overflowing its banks at the junction of the Carrot River and there are some 30 feet or more of. top soil in that area. It was a revelation to me to see the marvelous crops and the work that is being done there . I noticed, too, that certain ,..,.. when this land is sold that there are certain regulations or cer tain requirements .

I notice that the questions of the rating was determined on a point system , which took into consideration such facts as the marital status, financial status , experience , education, character and age. I think that these are very wise requirements, but IIiy mind now goes to Falcon Lake and the sale of property. I think that this is something that I will probably never forget, because I think that policy was most unfair.

I think that this system, while these requirements in set tling Crown land are proper , I think that where we are selling government property for recre ational purposes that it should not depend on a ma n's financial status.! think that there are "X" amounts of lots to be sold that the fairest thing would be to put the names in a fish bowl, be cause after all , the American government does that when they call young men to the service, is a fair way.

I think that because people are affluent and can afford to put in high bids, 1 think this is the most unfair way of allocating lots in that beautiful area of Falcon Lake. I'm glad to note that at last some of our marginal land is to come under the scope of ARDA. As the honourable member previously said, that it was a shame that our settlers were allowed to go onto these Soldier Settlement farms in the Inter lake area where there was nothing but red groove sloughs and rocky ridges . This area will no doubt be a good area for pasture and for settlement under that scheme .

In regard to mines -- I see that much is being done at last in regard to mine safety. Sil icosis, while I don't think that we have had many, if any, cases come to light recently -- I think that much is being done to see that this doesn't happen. I notice with interest that alu minum dust is being used at one mine . I would like to know which one, probably the one at Thompson, to see whether or not this would ameliorate the possibilities of miners contacting silicosis. I notice, too, that there are five mine rescue stations in Manitoba now and that a very active program of training is going on.

I think that Manitoba is a wonderful place to live, and listening to the Honourable Meml)er for Ethelbert, and he has invited me to the Duck Mountains which he claims is Manitoba's fin est, but I think that we have a lot to be proud of in Manitoba. I think that the keynote should be on conservation and the proper development of the bounty that nature placed in the earth - should be looked upon with a great responsibility . I think that the Minister deserves credit for the work that he's doing.

I hope he keeps it up and I hope he will explain some of the , or give me some of the answers to the questions that I have asked. Before I finish though, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to mention that, v.h ile the Honourable Minister of Agriculture gave us an explanation last year as to why the area called the St.

An drews bog was not going to be developed as a staging ground for geese, and I would wish to re mind the committee again that these geese fly in the first week of April from the marshes of LoUi.sianna, the first place they stop, on "the first place they did stop before the area dried up, was the area of Meadows , Manitoba. These geese now have to find staging grounds farther to the north and I suggested before that the area of St. Andrews bog, which has been considered before to be used as a staging ground, should be again looked at and be considered. I under stand that the municipality of St.

Andrews already has been contacted by Ducks Unlimited at some other time. The area is ideal for the purpose. I well remember the time we used to take the children to Meadows to see the thousands of geese that came there the first week of April. I haven't seen them there for some time now because of the drought, but it would be a wonderful thing I think for Manitoba if we could arrange to have the St. Andrew bog kept in the interests of the geese that come every spring. Thank you. March 28th, 1963 Page 785

MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I don't intend to speak too long at this time on this, but nevertheless I would like to have a chance to ask a few questions of the Honourable Minister and maybe make a suggestion or two. I was going to speak of this help -- that we went outside the province to get this man to take care of this enquiry on safety, but this has been covered by the Honourable Member from Seven Oaks and I must say that I agree with him 100 percent. There is something that happened this year; the fees that were charged in the Whiteshell Forest area. I must protest against this. I think that this is wrong.

First of all, the many cottage owners -- well, I shouldn't say owners, but these people have a lease on this property; they've paid for this lease ; they had to pay for the building of the cottages; they have a contract, an annual rental, I think, that most of them signed around 1960; they have till 165 to go. They also, I would say, many of .them, feel that they suffer from this development now in this area, the people that are living there, and it seemed to be most unfair to charge them to go to their own cottages.

Sometimes you. might see -- on some Sunday there might be two or three cars - there might be relative s of theirs or friends that are going there.-- they're all paying for gas , paying taxes that will help to keep these roads going and then they have to pay again to get into their property. I think that we've had trouble there also -- not only the cottage owners but some of the businessmen in the district suffered very much for awhile on this and in fact it was diffi cult for some of the people -- they had to pay to go to church because of the set-up where the toll gate was .

I must say at this time, though, that I was in touch with the Honourable Minister and that he certainly didn't waste time , that he co-operated, as he always did as far as I'm con cerned -- he co-operated very much, and this was rectified im mediately, but I think that the pclicy of charging to go to the Whiteshell, especially the cottage owners and so on, is wrong.

If we were just charging for any services in the park -- in the public park, the people that are going there just for the day -- I could understand that because there is a lot of money that has been spent there, but the principle of charging to the cottage owners I think is definitely wrong. It's the principle more than anything else. I know that these people only pay -- I think they're paying $30 .0 0 a year and it's a very, very minimum fee, but the pcint is there was a contract entered into in good faith for the rental and if this is not enough definitely they should add on to the rental from now on.

Talking about this -- I ••.•• •• really discuss the question oj:" rental versus outright pur chase of these cottages -- I don't see why these cottages can't be bought or sold outright. I think that it should be now. Right now I think there's an injustice being done to some of the people that own cottages in different areas of the province where they are taxed. As I said be fore, these people are paying $30. 00 rental --:-$30.0 0 a year -- where other places they are paying over $1 00. 00 taxes and much of that goes towards schools.

I can understand that schools have to be built but these cottages might be used two months a year. The people owning these cottages pay their taxes, their school tax, on their home in the city and also in their business. Now I would suggest -- I know.that you have to have schools and I know that people that can af ford a cottage can afford to pay some tax, but I think it would be more just, I think it would be fair if we could have a fixed tax on all cottage owners around the province, and this could be distributed to these places.

I don't think that it is fair that people in a certain area who re ceive not too much help from the province should pay for tax for the other people who are pay ing $30. 00 a year for their cottage and that's it. I would like to ask the following question of the Honourable Minister.

I would like to know the cost, the purchase -- this might have been given in other years or maybe he can tell me where I can get it -:-but the cost of purchase of Grand Beach; the cost of total construction to date on Grand Beach -- when I say construction I'm talking about the roads, not leading to Grand Beach but in the Beach itself, the parking lot and so on; the approximate cost of future construction• if any, contemplated in the area; the cost of the yearly maintenance , and also the yearly revenue from Grand Beach.

Now, I would also like to have the cost of construction in the Whiteshell Forest area; the cost of future construction if any contemplated; the cost of yearly maintenance , and the yearly revenue for that area also . I would like to know how much money has been spent by the province for the summer resort of Winnipeg Beach last year, and I would like to know if there was any grant paid to the Assiniboine Park -- the City Park -- here in the City. Now I don't know if this would come under this Department, if this was done, but I Page 786 March 28th, 1963

(Mr. Desjardins, cont1d) •.••• certainly think that we spend so much money all over the pro vince, if we stop there it isn't quite fair. I'm all for developing these nice areas that we have but if we're going to spend this kind of money at the Whiteshell and then in Grand Beach, there are an awful lot of poor people that cannot afford to have cottages, that can't even afford -- that have no cars; they don't know where the Whiteshell is; they've never been to Grand Beach.

Now this is no reason to stop this development but I say definitely if we want to be fair with a lot of the people in the city I think that this Department should take over Assiniboine Park, take over and maintain Assiniboine Park - either this Department or another Department but on the same purpose that it's being done now, that people can go and see the beauty of the Whiteshell area.

I think a lot of people where there's this high population -- about half the population of Manitoba - I think they should have a chance to go to the park without having to pay for it if they're already paying for the Whiteshell and the other recreation areas. If this can't be done, if it can't be taken over by the Department, the Department should I believe, and the govern ment if it's not this Depar.tment,. should make a grant equal to the cost of maintenance at the park - should make this grant to the Metro to run that park.

I'm not including all the smaller ·p arks, all the golf courses and so on -- a lot of those are under private enterprise -- but I think that it is only fair and I definitely know -- we were talking about these slum areas - those people don't know where the Whiteshell is, many of them, and they don't know where Grand Beach is, and even if they did they have no facilities or no money to get there. It wouldn't cost them very much to take a walk in the park and so on, and I think that they have just as much right and a chance to enjoy the beauty of our province as well as others.

I might repeat here that I'm not knocking the Whiteshell or Grand Beach for that matter, but I think that we should distribute that amongst all the people of Manitoba and not only those that can afford to get a cottage in those areas or at least that have a car that can go out every weekend, and I think it would be fair and I would ask the Minister if he could take this into consideration. I think they should, and they probably will arrive with some program that would benefit all the people of Manitoba, that would be acceptable to all, I'm sure.

I think that the Minister deserves praise for the sincerity in which he's been doing his work and in the way he explained most of his Estimates today, and I sure wish him success in the future. :MR. LEMUEL HARRIS (Logan): Mr. Chairman, I've seen the report the Combo Mines of ..•• ••.••• •..••• potash. How thick is the seam and to what extent is the field and what depth do you have to drill to hit potash? What tonnage do you expect when you go into full pro duction and what area is this field in ?

How many people will be employed when it will be - how many people can you take from our unemployed when this thing will be in full capacity? Now I will go a little further on this -- this is on mines -- and I would ask the Minister whether he could tell me something on this . I have seen quite a lot on this silicosis and I've been very much interested in it. I've seen so many people that have had to carry on under sad circumstances where they couldn't.work no more than about two or three hundred feet and had to rest.

In Canada here I don't know whether you have to any great extent, but I know that in your gold mines, and I guess some of your coal mines too, before they thought of this disease and what effect it could have on the people that worked i n there -- now I know, I've seen in these vast mines where these people worked and the ventilation was not very good and the dust was thick. Nobody thought of the toll that this was taking on the people, but now in this day and age we know that we can avoid these things and I'm just wondering now how many of these old miners we have here in Manitoba have this disease.

What is being done for them? In this re gard, I know that a lot of these people have come into this province from other provinces, and we are ten provinces here now and each one is going to say to the other one , "Well, you've got a little

part in this and I've got a little

part in that, " but who is going to help these chaps out? So I'm just wondering now, what is being done with regard to these people? What are the various provinces going to do? Is the Dominion Government going to do anything for these people or are they just going to let them carry on the way they are? MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I think I am qualified to speak in this august Assem bly on this matter, because I know nothing whatsoever about the Department of Mines and Natural Resources , nothing about Forestry, nothing about Games or Fisheries or any of the other aspects. That seems, I think, to entitle me to speak. I also find that the few points that March 28th, 1963 Page 787

(Mr. Cherniack, cont1d) ••••• I wanted to deal with were to some extent dealt with by the Honourable Member from St. Boniface. I think that, too, qualifies me to speak on this matter. I look at the Annual Reports , at the matters dealing with game and fish and the matter of conservation. I heard the Honourable Member from Ethelbert Plains speak of the need to pro vide the wild life which is necessa ry for the hunter.

Never having been a hunter I'm not sure that I recognize the need, but I do unders tand from hunters and fishermen that this is a very important recreational portion of their lives, and I accept it as such, and 1 recognize that many people do enjoy it, but I look at it from a slightly different viewpoint. I look also from the standpoint of conservation as relating to keeping our wild life alive, not only dead; keeping our vast areas of the province in a state where they are most attractive to people of this province and indeed to many tourists that we hope to bring here .

I would love to see some item in these estimates which relates directly to encouraging somet hing like bird.,-watching, because I under stand you can get as much pleasure from watching birds as from killing them. Possibly it's in here; I don't know it. I would love to see somet hing in the estimates dealing with expansion of zoos. I'd like to see money spent in order to maintain evidence of the wild life for the children who are able to visit the zoos and see them. I'm much impressed with the argument presented by the Honourable Member from St.

Boniface that a park like Assiniboine Park deserves the benefit of provincial assist ance in maintaining its present condition, and indeed in developing it so that more and more people will get greater value from such things as seeing animals alive and staying alive. The other matter that interests me very much is seeing that people can stay alive as well, whilst they are participating in the efforts that they have in their hunting endeavours . And I don't care whether you bring a man from the United States or anywhere else, as long as you bring people who can assist us with this problem.

I made. some preliminary inquiries regard ing the control over the use of firearms, and as far as I can tell; the ·provincial government does nothing -- and I hope to be corrected if I'm wrong -- does nothing about properly control ling or having some effort to regulate the ownership of firearms, to make sure that the people who use them are qualified and trained to use them; that the people who have them have them in the proper condition so that they could be used.

I took the trouble to check up in the Crimi nal Code on just what it is that the Code provides for this feature, and I discovered that fire arms as defined in the Code relates to pistols, revolvers and repeating rifles and, as I under stand it, these are not normal tools which are used by a hunter when he goes out hunting. I understand that they use rifles, they use shotguns, they use airguns, twenty-twos .

I remem ber from my army days that a rifle is a pretty potent weapon, and just as I insist -- and we do all -- that a person who operates an automobile which can be an instrument of death, a 303, as I recall it, was designed for that purpose; and I have not found anything yet -- and possibly the Honourable Minister will acquaint me -- of any regulation which controls the sale or distribu tion of this type of weapon, the checking of these weapons to make sure that they are in proper condition; that the sights are properly set up; that they do not deteriorate; that they are kept and maintained properly; and that the people who use them are properly trained to use them.

Now I believe that there are voluntary organizations that make an effort to teach and educate the people who use these weapons, but I would cer tainly hope that the department does have some sort of control, and as I say, I haven't been able to discover whether or not it does. If it does not have the control, then apparently it does not have the right to deny a person from using it, and a license, as I unders tand it, is only a license to hunt but not a -- a withdrawal I don't think is a denial to carry that weapon of which I speak.

I'm very much .concerne d, and I'm sure all members, all citizens of this province are very much concerned with the hunting accidents that take place, not only hunting accidents which take place but accidents which take place in homes because of the mishandling of these weapons to which I refer. And I would like to hear a further report on just what it is that we are doing, and if we are not doing very much , I would hope that we look for somet hing to be done in that field. I have some information dealing with recreat ional areas which was asked for by the Honourable Member for St.

Boniface when he dealt with the Whiteshell area. I'm not sure that I agree with him that it is a shame to charge a permit fee for people who come and visit. It does seem a peculiar thing that people who have cottages there should have to pay permits, but yet I cannot weep for them when I discover how little they pay for the privilege of occupying Page 788 March 28th, 1963

(Mr. Cherniack, cont'd} ••••. land in the area. Now, I did get the information, and I find that people in Falcon Lake who live in the townsite pay $60 .0 0 a year as a permit fee, and for that they have the right to maintain their cabin there, their cottage there -- their palace there in many cases, because there are $10, 000 and $15, 000 buildings on some of those lots. They get the benefit in the townsite of municipal services such as sewer and water, and all they pay for that is the actual maintenance cost, and as far as I can see, nothing for the capital outlay ex cept the $60 .0 0 a year.

The people outside of the townsite are paying $30 .0 0 a year and $5 .0 0 for garbage collection. Now I think it's ludicrous that they should pay so little, or if they should pay so little, then the argument presented by the Honourable Member from St. Boniface is valid, then people who choose to take their summer homes and live in them in municipalities that are organized are paying very substantial amounts for their taxation, A hundred dollars is cheap compared to what many pay. And the argument presented by the Honourable Member from St.

Boniface was that there should be some way, some adjustment made in connection with the school tax. Well, of course , we suggested that adjustment long ago. We said school . tax should be taken off the municipal tax roll, and if that were done then this problem raised by the Honourable Member for St. Boniface would be answered in that way. But at least there ought to be some equity in the difference of the cost of maintaining summer homes as between Falcon Lake, Whiteshell Reserve and the other, many other resort areas in the province. I find -- it's for the Honourable Member for St.

Boniface's information -- that the capital cost of development of Falcon Lake was approximately $1, 650 , 000. 00. I checked -..., made a calculation as to what six percent of that is; it comes to $99 , 000 a year, which I assu.me is an interest rate that we can calculate on . And I also got the information that the Honourable Mem ber from St.

Boniface asked for, and that is, the annual revenue and expenditure; In 1962 ,. the revenue was $96 , 72 8.4 0, the expenditure was $62 , 300, leaving a net revenue over expenditure of $34, 428. 40, If you r.elate that to $99, 000 a year interest at six percent on the capital invest ment, then it would appear there is about one-third of. the j.nterest value being returned in the figure of revenue over expenditure. I think that the government did an excellent job in planning Falcon Lake, in developing Falcon Lake. It is now one of the beautiful areas in the province for resort purposes.

But when you realize those factors which I've already attempted to develop, when you realize that the average price paid for the right to lease a lot -- in the townsite of Falcon Lake it was $215, co mpared to probably $1, 000 to $2, 000 that it might cost to purchase a Jot in, say, Win nipeg Beach or Gimli or Victoria Beach; the average price paid for the. right to lease a lot other than the townsite of Falcon Lake was $106 -- I think that the people there are getting a bargain.

I don't begrudge them the bargain, but I think that this develops an area that was un developed and does nothing whatsoever to help those areas which are the long-time resort areas of this province. I am therefore very much interested in the answers to the questions of the Honourable Member from St.

Boniface as to what has been done in Grand Beach, what will be done in Grand Beach and, incidentally, I note that the capital cost for Grand Beach was some thing llke a quarter of a million dollars -- well, I can give it to you exactly: lands purchased -- it was $225 ,0 00 as the price paid to the Canadian National Railways for the purchase of 163 acres at Grand Beach. That, of course, is just the initial cost. Obviously, if the purchase was made, it was made for the purpose of development, and there must be much more planned for the area.

But as far as I' m concerned, the west portion, the southwest portion of Lake Winnipeg is probably the oldest resort area in this province, and I would suggest to the Minister that practically nothing has been done by this government in attempting to develop that portion of the resort area of this province. I would hope that much more will be done, but possibly it will have to stand in line awaiting the monies that are expected to be expended elsewhere.

Therefore , I feel that there is much yet that we can hope for in these areas of resort develop ment, and a proper relationship of cost as between those people who choose to take their vaca.,. tions in one part of the province as compared to another. MR. HYRHORCZUK: ••••••• monopolize this debate, but I couldn't let some of the re marks made by the Honourable Member from St. John's go by without saying something about them. I don't think he had to preface his remarks about his lack of knowledge of this depart ment when he talks about conservation, because what he had to say about it proves that fact in itself.

He seems to think that the fact that we have hunters in Manitoba and that these hunters March 28th, 1963 Page 789

(Mr. Hryhorczuk, cont'd) ••••• are only concerned with destruction of our game .•••.• Well, his thinking is about a quarter of a century old. The fact is, Mr. Chairman, which any man who takes an interest in our wild life knows, that unless we did systematic and proper cropping of our wild life, the wild life wouldn't be there today, not in the numbers that we have them. There seems to be a misapprehension emana ting from sources that are not acquainted with wild life problems or the manner in which we can continue to preserve the number of our wild life.

We must always bear in mind that the natural habitat of the wild life, our game in particular, has always been getting sm aller and sma ller and sm aller, and the animals are forced to live in what we call preserves. Now if the anima ls are allowed to reproduce without being cropped off then eventually nature takes over and yeu can see species almost completely wiped out, once the balance of what we call the balance of nature is disrupted. We must keep in mind that we, the man goes after the predators that is the natural enemy of these animals .

We must keep in mind that our browsing and grazing facilities will only ma intain certain numbers and you must keep the numbers of your animals within these limits if you want healthy anim als, and if you want any number of animals . The hunting in itself, I don't think that there are very many hun ters that are not conscious and sincerely and deeply concerned with conservation. I'd say the majority of them are. We have several thousand members in the Game and Fish Association, this is for the benefit of the Honourable Member from St.

John's, that spend a great deal of their time thinking and studying wild life for the purpose of conservation and preservation, and each and every one of them is a hunter. I just bring this up, Mr. Chairman, because I wouldn't want the impr essi on to be left that just because we allow hunting, that we have hunters in the province, that all they are concerned with is the killing of our wild life because that's far from the truth.

In the same manner as we have to keep our domes tic animals within certain limits of the ability to feed and graze the same thing applies to our wild life, and unless we have laws which permi t hunting, we are not going to help the situation, we're going to hurt it. MR. S. PETERS (Elm wood): Mr. Chairman, I just want to bring to the attention of the Minister, one item that I think needs very serious consideration.

That is, when there are lots available in the Whiteshell area, notices are sent out to the people stating a mini mum bid and the annual rental that will be expected, and what has been happening here is this - that there are choice lots, and the people with the money are getting these lots, not because they want them but because they are building to sell. They will put in bids, there's a minimum bid of $30. 00 for a lot; a builder will go and put in a bid in his name , his wife's name , his children's names of $500 or $600 and the minimum bid is $50 . 00. They get those lots.

What happens is this, that as soon as they get them, they start building homes or summer cottages on them and immed iately there are signs put up "For Sale". I would suggest to the Minister that what should happen is this: That if som ebody builds on a lot, that they should be made to keep that lot for five or ten years instead of getting it and building on it and selling at a profit, because what is happening is that people with the money are getting these lots. If there are more bids than one, I would suggest to the Minister that all the names be put into a hat and be drawn out.

I think that the Minister should take very serious consideration in this matter because I know of people that have put in bids, that when the minimum bid was $25 .0 0 they would have liked to have a lot. They put in a bid for $50. 00. They didn't get it. The next time a lot was availa ble, they put in for a bid of $100. 00, and they still didn't get it.. I understand that the top bid was $500 when the minimum asked was $50 . 00; and I don't think this is doing the Minister's Depart ment any good. One other thing that I would like to mention is this business of hunting and people going out to hunt.

We all know that today you can go out to these surplus army places and you can buy a 303 rifle for $9. 95; . as long as you've got that $9. 95 it doesn't matter who you are, what you know about the weapon, the potentiality of that weapon, you can buy it and you can also buy the ammu nition for it very cheaply. We had a very unfortunate incident a very short time ago where a young boy sitting in his living room with his parents was shot and killed.

More than likely it was one of these 3031s that somebody bought for $9. 95, didn't know the potentiality of it, because at three-quarters of a mile with a 303 you can shoot through a telephone pole and if you're on the other side of it you'll still get killed. So I would ask the Minister to take a very good look and see if 1:\e can'� bring in legislation where anybody -- (Interjection) Well you'd mak e a pretty good telephone pole -- should take very serious consideration -- this is not a Page 790 March 28th, 1963

(Mr. Peters, cont'd) ••••• funny matter. I brought this matter up, I think it was two years ago and we had to bring in an expert from Minnesota to tell us . We didn't have to go to Minne sota, Mr. Chairman, to tell us

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-1-33
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 1st hansardpdf 33.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	381432dcd5ba2a7f7c24fd1054e653bbb151cfdc

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