1987 Legislative Session: 1st Session, 34th Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.

The printed version remains the official version.

Official Report of

DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(Hansard)

TUESDAY, JULY 14, 1987

Afternoon Sitting

[ Page

2483 ]

CONTENTS

Routine Proceedings

Oral Questions

Workers' compensation review board. Mr. Gabelmann –– 2483

Dismissal of Mr. Ron Butlin. Ms. Edwards –– 2484

B.C. Development Corporation annual report. Mr. Williams –– 2484

Expo Corporation accounting. Mr. Williams –– 2484

Native education funding. Mr. Jones –– 2484

Admission fees to provincial museums. Mr. G. Hanson –– 2484

Pesticide Control Act. Ms. Smallwood –– 2485

Starfire Resources Ltd. Mr. Sihota –– 2485

Westcoast transmission propane plant subsidy. Mr. Clark –– 2485

Wine industry and free trade. Mr. Rose –– 2485

Ministerial Statement

Letter from GAIN recipient. Hon. Mr. Richmond –– 2486

Presenting Petitions –– 2486

Committee of Supply: Ministry of Advanced Education and Job Training estimates.

(Hon. S. Hagen)

On vote 5: minister's office –– 2486

Hon. S. Hagen

Ms. Marzari

University Amendment Act, 1987 (Bill 32). Hon. S. Hagen

Introduction and first reading –– 2490

University Foundations Act (Bill 57). Hon. S. Hagen

Introduction and first reading –– 2491

Committee of Supply: Ministry of Advanced Education and Job Training estimates.

(Hon. S. Hagen)

On vote 5: minister's office –– 2491

Ms. Marzari

Ms. Edwards

Mr. R. Fraser

Mr. Ree

Mr. Lovick

Ms. A. Hagen

Mr. Miller

Ms. Smallwood

University Amendment Act, 1987 (Bill 32). Second reading

Hon. S. Hagen –– 2519

Ms. Marzari –– 2519

Mr. Jones –– 2520

Hon. S. Hagen –– 2520

University Foundations Act (Bill 57). Second reading

Hon. S. Hagen –– 2521

Ms. Marzari –– 2521

Hon. S. Hagen –– 2521

University Endowment Land Amendment Act, 1987 (Bill 46). Second reading

Hon. Mrs. Johnston –– 2521

Ms. Marzari –– 2521

Hon. Mrs. Johnston –– 2521

Motor Vehicle Amendment Act, 1987 (Bill 36). Second reading

Hon. Mr. Michael –– 2522

Mr. Miller –– 2522

Hon. Mr. Michael –– 2522

Motor Carrier Amendment Act, 1987 (Bill 47). Second reading

Hon. Mr. Michael –– 2522

Mr. Miller –– 2523

Hon. Mr. Michael –– 2524

Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act (No –– 3), 1987 (Bill 55). Second reading

Hon. Mr. Strachan –– 2524

Mr. Stupich –– 2524

Mr. Williams –– 2525

Hon. Mr. Veitch –– 2527

Committee of Supply: Ministry of Transportation and Highways estimates. (Hon. Mr. Michael)

On vote 61: minister's office –– 2528

Hon. Mr. Michael

Mr. Miller

Mr. Chalmers

The House met at 2:07 p.m.

MR. LOENEN: Mr. Speaker, with us in your gallery is Mr. John

Jantzen from the great riding of Richmond. Like so many people there,

he is a member of the Social Credit Party. He helped us as a volunteer

in the last election. Please make him welcome.

MR. JONES: I'd like to introduce a visitor in the gallery

today, Dr. Alan Child from Birch Island in Kamloops. Would the House

please make him welcome.

HON. MRS. JOHNSTON: In the gallery this afternoon we have my

executive assistant from Surrey, Marguerite Leach, and her husband

Derek, and with them we have Derek's sister and husband, visiting from

Stevenage, Hertfordshire, England, Edwin and Barbara Coughlan. I would

ask the House to please make them welcome.

MR. BLENCOE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to introduce a woman

in the gallery who over the last six days, along with her supporters

and workers, has worked diligently in Victoria, signing petitions

concerning the Provincial Museum. In the gallery is Betty Martyn. Would

Betty please stand up — and welcome to the gallery.

HON. MR. DUECK: It gives me great pleasure to introduce my

son Leonard. He's living in Victoria for the summer, and taking some

more classes, going for his master's degree in music education. With

him is his mother, who also happens to be my girlfriend and my wife. I

don't know exactly where they're sitting, but I'd like the House to

make them welcome.

MR. REE: Mr. Speaker, today at noon a number of people in the

precincts were entertained by a very lovely band outside. I'd ask the

members to show their appreciation for the performance by the Akko

Youth Band of Israel, which is doing a North American tour. They've

been to Calgary, Vancouver and Victoria; they're off to Toronto and

then down to Boston. Would the House show their appreciation.

I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, I should have mentioned their conductor, Shmuel Kahana, who is leading them.

MR. DIRKS: Mr. Speaker, in the interior we hear a lot about

Pacific Rim countries and our connection with those countries, but they

seem far distant most of the time. It gives me great pleasure,

therefore, this afternoon to introduce in your gallery Mr. Takase of

Osaka, Japan. He is a man of vision, for bridging our two cultures.

He's the president of the Japan Education Academy, and now also the

chairman of Canadian International College, a unique Japanese-Canadian

joint venture in education.

With him this afternoon is Mr. Sakamoto, also of Osaka. He is the supervisor

of the Tokyo office of Japan Education Academy. With them also is Mr. Haraguchi

of Vancouver; Gloria Tiede, a consultant to Canadian International College;

Mr. John Christianson, the chairman of Nelson International School Inc., and

also a former cabinet minister in Duff Roblin's government in Manitoba.

Accompanying them from my good constituency is my official agent in the last

election campaign, Mr. Tom Baybutt. Would the House please make them welcome.

MR. PELTON: On your behalf, Mr. Speaker, I would like to tell

the House that in the gallery today are a group of people who have been

making a presentation this morning to the Cabinet Committee on Economic

Development. These people represent the Powder Mountain Resorts. They

are Mrs. Nan Hartwick, Ms. Diane Hartwick, Constable Rick Bell from

West Vancouver, Don Docksteader, Milton Zink, Roger Tadema, Barry

Drummond, Ron Slinger and Ms. Lara Zink.

As well, accompanying this group of fine people is an outstanding

young Canadian. He is the winner of three World Cup downhill races: one

in Kitzbuhel, Austria; one in Furano, Japan; and one in Aspen,

Colorado. He's been on the Canadian national ski team for ten years.

He's a recivient of the John F. Bassett award for his role as an

ambassador of Canada through sport. I would like the House to welcome

Mr. Todd Brooker and all these other people who are here with us today.

HON. S. HAGEN: It's a pleasure for me to welcome to the House

this afternoon two people from two of our premier educational

institutes: Jake McInnis of East Kootenay Community College and Doug

Jardine of Capilano College. Would the House please make them welcome.

Oral Questions

WORKERS' COMPENSATION REVIEW BOARD

MR. GABELMANN: I have a question for the Minister of Labour

and Consumer Services: what steps has the minister taken to recruit a

replacement chairperson for Paul Gallagher at the WCB board of review?

HON. L. HANSON: There will not be a permanent placement

immediately. There is a temporary chairman who is going to look after

the board for an interim period.

MR. GABELMANN: Can the minister tell the House who the temporary chairperson is and how long his tenure will be?

HON. L. HANSON: It's a little difficult to do that right at

the moment. I will advise the House very shortly, The reason is that we

haven't been able to contact the individual. He is on holidays for

three weeks.

MR. GABELMANN: The WCB says in its leaflets to claimants that

boards of review are "an independent appeal body operated by the

provincial government." Is it the policy of the government that an

arm's-length relationship and a clear separation from the board shall

be part of the attributes of the successful candidate?

HON. L. HANSON: The review board of the WCB is, in fact, an

independent body, and it would only be appropriate that the individual

be independent. The decision as to who the identity of that person may

be hasn't been made yet.

MR. GABELMANN: A final question, Mr. Speaker. Given the

answer from the minister, can the minister confirm that Peter Bazowski

has been excluded from the consideration because of his previous close

links working with Jim Nielsen while Mr. Nielsen was Minister of Health

and Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs?

[ Page

2484 ]

[2:15]

HON. L. HANSON: I cannot confirm that. I also cannot confirm

that any individual or particular person is excluded at this point,

because there hasn't been any decision made. The particular individual

that the member has mentioned has been rumoured to be a candidate, but

that rumour has not come from my ministry.

DISMISSAL OF MR. RON BUTLIN

MS. EDWARDS: My question is to the Premier. In view of the

Minister of Tourism's (Hon. Mr. Reid'

s) refusal yesterday to admit that

he has misled the House regarding the dismissal of Mr. Ron Butlin, who

was the former manager of the B.C. Games, will the Premier demand the

minister's resignation?

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: No, Mr. Speaker. But I was given a

letter today that I hadn't seen previously, and I'll certainly be

discussing it with the minister.

MS. EDWARDS: Supplementary, Mr. Premier. I understand you had

received a letter from Mr. Butlin, and he requested an audience. Will

you be giving that audience to Mr. Butlin?

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: I have not myself received such a

letter. I did see a copy that was sent to the media, which was given to

me. But apparently the letter is on its way to me.

MS. EDWARDS: The copy, as I understand it, is of a letter directed to you. Are you saying that you did not receive, that letter?

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I've not yet received the letter.

B.C. DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION

ANNUAL REPORT

MR. WILLIAMS: To the Premier. Yesterday the Premier indicated

that there was a need for better reporting by the Crown corporations so

the public would know what they were and weren't doing. B.C.

Development Corporation lost $87 million in the '85-86 year, and we

still don't have the annual report for the last fiscal year. Can the

Premier advise the House when we're at least going to get the annual

report for B.C. Development Corporation?

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: I believe it's the end of August, but I

could defer the question to the minister responsible. Perhaps he can

give you the information more accurately.

EXPO CORPORATION ACCOUNTING

MR. WILLIAMS: Earlier in the year, the Premier indicated

there would be a full accounting of the Expo debt as well, and that it

would be made public. This would, of course, involve B.C. Place as

well. Could the Premier advise when that information will be provided

the House?

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: Mr. Speaker, the information with respect to Expo was provided publicly.

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, most legislatures in this land

have a Crown corporations committee, where bipartisan groups can quiz

the civil service and Crown corporation servants. Has the Premier

considered this matter, and is he prepared to have these matters go

before a Crown corporations committee? That suggestion has been put

forth again in the last several days, and I'll pursue that.

NATIVE EDUCATION FUNDING

MR. JONES: I have a question for the Minister of Intergovernmental Relations which is really a freedom-of-information question as well.

Some three and a half months ago, the member for Alberni (Mr.

Skelly) put on the order paper a written question. The question was

asking for some straightforward, simple, statistical information.

Several weeks ago I asked a question in question period relating to

that same question. The minister did not answer it at that time. Is the

minister aware of this question on the order paper? Does he take

seriously his ministerial responsibilities to respond to written

questions on the order paper? And does he intend, before the end of

this session, to answer that question?

HON. MR. ROGERS: Yes, for the first one. Yes, for the second one. And if the information is available for the third one.

ADMISSION FEES TO PROVINCIAL MUSEUMS

MR. G. HANSON: Mr. Speaker, I want to address a question to the Premier. The Premier, the first Premier in 101 years

that the Provincial Museum has been in place in this province.... As he is aware, in 1886 there was a petition established to

have a Provincial Museum. Today in the local newspaper a former director, Yorke Edwards, stated that "charging the people of

the province to see the magic of their own displays...puts us back somewhere before 1886." In light of these comments, will

the Premier now reconsider his cabinet decision to impose admission fees at the provincial museum?

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: A resident of the province can purchase a pass for the balance of the year for $10, and this

covers the entire family for all facilities throughout the province, including the museum. It certainly also provides

revenues to do upgrading, to improve the facilities, and hopefully to cover some of the costs. Frankly, I think the

majority of British Columbians would be supportive of such a move.

MR. G. HANSON: Mr. Speaker, the government previously stated that it would reconsider user fees only if a

provincewide protest formed. There now exists a petition that my colleague introduced in the Legislature today with over

11,000 signatures gathered in just a few short days. It's clear that there is provincewide objection to people paying to

see their own history and their own heritage. Would he now consider again a sober second thought? W.A.C. didn't do it;

the Barrett government never imposed it; the Bill Bennett

[ Page 2485 ]

government never imposed it. Why don't you just abandon it?

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: Mr. Speaker, we're not just dealing with museums; we have other facilities as well for which

the pass can be used. We're talking about a number of facilities. We think the program can have a very beneficial effect.

I think it's also recognized, particularly in a place like Victoria, that there are many private facilities that charge,

and they're very successful and contribute a great deal to the economy of the province and most especially of this area.

I believe that we should really see what the....

MR. BLENCOE: Private facilities?

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: Yes, private facilities. This facility is not a private facility, in response to the message

across the floor. This is a public facility, obviously, but it's also being paid for by taxpayers, who will be faced

with additional taxes if we want to expand the facility or if we see the costs continue as they are.

We say that there is the opportunity here for visitors and all others to contribute, to have these moneys available for

expansion and improvement. I believe that the majority of people will be supportive of it, and we'll certainly look at it

again as time goes on. I believe it will be a successful program. If otherwise, obviously we're prepared to look at it.

PESTICIDE CONTROL ACT

MS. SMALLWOOD: My question is to the Minister of Environment.

Pursuant to our previous conversation regarding the Pesticide Control

Act, will the minister say on the public record whether or not he is

presently reviewing the Pesticide Control Act and the appeals process

and limiting the ability for the citizens of B.C. to appeal pesticide

spraying permits?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: I'd like to thank the member for the

question and put on record the statement that the story covered by the

Vancouver Province Friday last was fabricated, to say the least. The

story, in part, says: "The new Pesticide Control Act" — there is no new

Pesticide Control Act — "would deny the public the right to appeal

pesticide application permits...." That is also not correct.

Section

10(11) of the Environment Management Act indicates that all may appeal

a decision of the Ministry of Environment.

As for new legislation, Madam Member, there is none considered at

this point in terms of pesticide control, and it would come under the

Environment Management Act anyway, not the Pesticide Control Act.

STARFIRE RESOURCES LTD.

MR. SIHOTA: A question to the Minister of Finance. One of the

companies listed on the VSE by the name of Starfire Resources Ltd. has

filed several accounting reports outlining its affairs. The report for

the year ending December 31, 1985, which was filed on May 7, 1986,

contained the following comment from the auditor of the company: "The

company has entered into certain agreements described as investments

and is unable to supply adequate evidence to substantiate advances,

obligations and considerations related thereto." Can the Minister of

Finance advise this House what steps the superintendent of brokers

office has taken with respect to Starfire Resources?

HON. MR. COUVELIER: As I have mentioned often in this House,

particularly to the questioner, there is really very little that we can

say publicly regarding ongoing investigations and examinations. I find

myself in the same position with respect to this question. Under these

circumstances I have no choice but to take the question under notice.

WESTCOAST TRANSMISSION

PROPANE PLANT SUBSIDY

MR. CLARK: A question to the Minister of Energy. Could the

minister advise the House why hydroelectricity subsidy has been

provided to a propane plant owned by Westcoast Transmission. which is

regulated by the National Energy Board? In other words, why would there

be an electricity subsidy to a regulated utility?

HON. MR. DAVIS: B.C. Hydro comes under the Utilities

Commission and must make available the same rates and conditions to

similar classes of users, So I think the reference to the word

"subsidy" is inappropriate. The Utilities Commission would have passed

on that matter.

MR. CLARK: The propane plant is regulated by the National

Energy Board. If there is a problem with cash flow, surely they can go

and get their regulations adjusted. What about the whole question of

subsidies? This is like using a Cadillac resource — electricity — to

subsidize a cheap energy source — propane — which is what Amory Lovins

calls using a chain saw to cut butter. Is there any restriction on

using electricity as a form of subsidy to these kinds of cheap energy

resources?

HON. MR. DAVIS: As I endeavoured to say earlier, electricity

is not used preferentially as between individual customers in any

particular rate category. There is no subsidy. Federally regulated

companies or private companies coming under federal, as opposed to

provincial, jurisdiction are treated like any other customer.

MR. CLARK: In the same town there is a significant

hydroelectricity subsidy to a pulp mill. Could the minister advise the

House why there would be a hydroelectricity discount to a pulp mill

when the pulp sector is making more money than they have ever made in

the history of British Columbia?

HON. MR. DAVIS: Several years ago, in anticipation of a

surplus of energy on the B.C. Hydro system, a new category of rates was

established. Those rates run for several years; they don't run

indefinitely. They have been used to attract new industry. But again

the same category of rate is available to the same kinds of industries

provincewide.

WINE INDUSTRY AND FREE TRADE

MR. ROSE: I'd like to ask a question of the Minister of

Economic Development. I wonder if the minister can confirm that the

B.C. wine industry is a priority bargaining chip in the current

bilateral trade talks between the U.S. and Canada, and I'd like to know

what B.C.'s position is in terms

[ Page 2486 ]

of protecting this $150 million industry employing 6,000 people.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for the

question. It is also a very high priority for this government to assist

in the protection and sustaining of that industry for British Columbia.

We have, as a government, been meeting with the industry — both sides;

growers as well as the wineries themselves — and we have also been

discussing their situation with the federal government. It is true that

the federal administration, who have the responsibility for the

freer-trade talks with the U.S.A., are suggesting that it is a very

important area in terms of the U.S. negotiations with Canada. We are

doing our best to work with the industry, and members of our House have

met with them, and we hope that we can come to a satisfactory

resolution with the federal administration.

[2:30]

Ministerial Statement

LETTER FROM GAIN RECIPIENT

HON. MR. RICHMOND: Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a very

short ministerial statement that I don't think will require a response;

it's a spur-of-the-moment thing.

As you know, Mr. Chairman, in my ministry we get many thousands of letters, and most of them are of the same nature.

Some are quite different. We received one in the ministry today that I would like to share with the House. I won't name

the person who wrote it, but I think as this House winds down we can all use a small injection of levity or human interest.

The letter reads as follows:

"...let you know that I got estate and cheque from my

sister's lawyer. My sister died in Edmonton, Alberta. Do not send GAIN cheque

to me any more, because I am rich. Please phone Richmond and Grace McCarthy

that I thank them very much."

That's the end of the letter, Mr. Speaker. I'm sure that the thank-you was meant sincerely for all British Columbians.

MR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Economic Development seeks leave to make an introduction.

Leave granted.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: I'm very pleased to see in our gallery

today Mr. Mario Caravetta, a businessman from Vancouver and a great

British Columbian. I would ask the House to welcome him.

MR. WILLIAMS: Along with the Minister of Economic

Development, Mr. Speaker, I would as well like to welcome the candidate

who ran third in a by-election in Vancouver East a few years ago.

Presenting Petitions

MR. BLENCOE: Mr. Speaker, I seek leave to present a petition.

Leave granted.

MR. BLENCOE: This last week Victorians have diligently

organized — and I on their behalf am presenting today — an I 1,000-name

petition requesting that the provincial government have a second

thought at the last minute about introducing user fees for the

Provincial Museum. In addition, I have a special petition from the

children of British Columbia — which I can't table, obviously — who

have signed in their own way, and they express their concerns about the

user fee for the museum.

This petition signed by 11,000 British Columbians of all political

persuasions is clearly an expression of dissatisfaction and of a

feeling that the application of a user fee for the museum is totally

inappropriate. I would like at this time to read the petition.

"To the Honourable the Legislative Assembly of the Province of British Columbia in Legislature Assembled:

"The petition of the undersigned, concerned citizens of

the province of British Columbia, states that we are extremely concerned with

the proposed admission fee to the Provincial Museum.

"Your petitioner respectfully requests that the Honourable

House do all in its power to keep the Museum free."

I table those on behalf of all British Columbians, and ask this government,

in particular this Premier, to honour his fresh start for British Columbia.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to apologize to

the House. I gravely misled the chamber in an answer in question

period. I referred to

section 10(11) of the Environment Management Act

and it should have been

section 11(10). I apologize, and I want to put

that on the record.

Orders of the Day

The House in Committee of Supply; Mrs. Gran in the chair.

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF ADVANCED

EDUCATION AND JOB TRAINING

On vote 5: minister's office, $184,709.

HON. S. HAGEN: I am extremely happy to rise to speak to the

estimates of the new and revitalized Ministry of Advanced Education and

Job training.

Before I embark on my address, I'd like to take a moment to

acknowledge some key members of my ministry staff who will be with me

momentarily on the floor of the House this afternoon. They are Isabel

Kelly, my deputy minister, and John Watson, assistant deputy minister.

The Ministry of Advanced Education and Job Training, of which I am

most proud, is a far different organization than anything which has

existed before in this province. It is an amalgam of crucial elements

from three former ministries, bound together as a force to provide

basic support for the development of our people and the economic growth

of our province. My ministry includes universities, colleges,

institutes, science and technology, job training, youth, and women's

initiatives, moulded together into a dynamic combination that is

providing a new sense of meaning to the term "post-secondary education."

[ Page 2487 ]

This ministry brings together activities related to the skills and

education needed for life. What has occurred in the evolution of this

new ministry is a change in attitude. No longer are we looking at

post-secondary teaching as an element of social reconstruction, but

rather as an investment in the potential of British Columbia and as a

development cost in the creation of the primary asset of our province,

its people.

Interjection.

HON. S. HAGEN: I will.

In the developing countries of the Third World, there is a common

phrase: "No country can rise above the level of its people's

education." The same might be said of any Canadian province. It is our

people's capacity to perform that will dictate our ability to grow, to

compete and to lead.

In British Columbia right now we have one of the finest

post-secondary systems in Canada. In ever-increasing ways, we are

looking cooperatively to ensure that the system remains strong. A good

example of this is the recently announced Alaska Highway consortium on

teacher education, a $1.4 million initiative to train elementary school

teachers in the north who will stay in the north and teach. This

proposal is a unique and innovative step and will involve Northern

Lights College, Simon Fraser University and three northern school

districts. All of the training will be delivered in the north.

My estimates will reflect an 8.3 percent increase over last year,

which I feel is well justified by the results we are seeing and equally

justified by the restraint practised over the past five years. A

comparison of this year's estimates to those of last year will prove

difficult, because the form of my ministry simply did not exist one

year ago. I'd first like to deal with science and technology. It was

only in April that I assumed responsibility for science and technology,

a component of overwhelming significance to every other part of my

ministry and to others like Education, Health and Economic Development.

I cannot talk about science and technology without telling you about

some of the exciting projects we are involved with. One of the projects

with great significance for British Columbia is the planned upgrading

of the TRIUMF facility at UBC to build the kaon factory. This $500

million project will make British Columbia the world-class centre of

excellence for high-energy physics research. It will have an immense

scientific and economic impact on British Columbia and indeed on all of

Canada. TRIUMF has already spawned several significant developments in

electronics, cancer treatment and robotics.

We all need to work together to increase public awareness and

knowledge about the importance of science and technology in our society

and to encourage the expansion of our talent base in science and

technology through post-secondary and employment training programs.

Next I'd like to talk about apprenticeship and job training. The

apprenticeship and job training programs branch of my ministry designs,

develops, implements and administers programs which influence and

stimulate the provincial labour market.

New jobs have an immediate effect on our economy, but all of the

programs which we run provide British Columbians with opportunities to

develop, increase and improve skills, knowledge and proficiency for

entering or remaining in the workforce. In 1986 the fiftieth

anniversary of the first formal apprenticeship in British Columbia took

place. Over 4,000 new apprentices were indentured; over 3,000 graduated

to journeyman status. Our program of journeyman upgrading will continue

so that our skilled workforce remains competitive in an ever-changing

workplace. On the private sector side, we continue to promote and

register private training institutions — now in excess of 400 — which

provide our citizens with a wide variety of training at reasonable

prices.

Our ministry's motto is "skills for life." This, among other things,

encompasses training and work experience. JobTrac is an integral part

of the government's economic development, and this year we will invest

$81 million, double last year's commitment. My ministry's contribution

alone is $30 million.

The program ensures that those with the greatest needs have

opportunities for employment and training: young people, women, older

workers, welfare recipients, students and the chronically unemployed.

JobTrac brings together all of the government's programs and services

under one umbrella, and provides better access and simpler service

delivery. JobTrac will stimulate 17,000 job opportunities, job training

and training on how to apply for a job. One-stop offices are an

excellent example of improved access, making a variety of key services

available in one convenient location. We will be establishing

additional one-stop offices to the one located in Prince George, based

on this highly successful model.

The innovative use of new technology to improve access in remote

parts of the province is a priority, and has resulted in a pilot

project called "The Working Network." The Ministry of Advanced

Education and Job Training is taking the lead in the delivery of

JobTrac and works closely with other ministries offering JobTrac

programs: in tourism, Community JobTrac; Forests and Lands, Forestry

JobTrac; Environment and Parks, Environment JobTrac. The Ministry of

Social Services and Housing plays a key role in helping income

assistance recipients receive training and jobs.

Through a number of joint agreements between ourselves and the

federal government, we will further increase the level of opportunity.

This year on summer employment opportunities we are spending $29

million, and for income assistance recipients we are spending $30

million. As I have done in the past few months, I will continue to meet

with the federal Minister of Employment and Immigration in order to

obtain even greater support in the future.

Vocational rehabilitation. It is important to increase access to

jobs for the disabled. With awareness of the disabled heightened by the

tremendous achievements of Rick Hansen's "Man in Motion" world tour,

our efforts must now take on new urgency. Work experience will play a

major role. Last year our contribution to this field was $3.7 million;

this year it will be $5.5 million. Self esteem and equality for the

disabled are goals for which we must all strive.

Distance education is a key element in our efforts to increase

access to advanced education. British Columbia is a world leader in its

use of new technology to deliver educational programming to remote

regions. Through contributions to the Knowledge Network, Open Learning

Institute and the three universities, 250 communities are currently

served in this way. University course registrations through distance

learning now stands at 61,000; college course registrants are at almost

40,000; $9.5 million dollars has been set aside for distance education,

an increase of 5 percent. Distance education is a cost-effective

response to improving

[ Page 2488 ]

access to post-secondary education in the province, and offers the flexibility of a multitude of program opportunities.

[2:45]

Shortly after I was sworn into cabinet, I asked the Premier why

women's and youth programs were not in my ministry, because it seemed

to me that many of the issues faced by those two groups pertain either

to job training, job retraining or education. Where better than the

Ministry of Advanced Education to locate the women's secretariat? Ours

is a ministry with a mandate and the expertise to directly focus and

address these most pressing needs for women.

Women's Programs was established in 1982, and under its new title —

women's secretariat — coordinates all government initiatives relating

to women's issues in British Columbia. We continue to be committed to

ensuring equal participation of women in the social, economic and

political life of our province. As a major employer in the province, we

are showing leadership in providing equal employment and advancement

opportunities for women.

We have endorsed a federal-provincial labour force strategy for

women. The secretariat last year co-sponsored a conference of women

business owners in Vancouver, attended by over 300, with more

conferences planned this year in each of the major regions of British

Columbia. We have recently appointed Fran Norris as the new executive

director of the women's secretariat and the Youth Council. With her

background and proven abilities in this area, and our steadfast

commitment to improving the standing of women in the province, we will

succeed in achieving the goals we have set for ourselves in this area.

I must emphasize that our government continues to work towards the

full participation of women in all aspects of British Columbia society.

We still believe that the most effective way of achieving a fundamental

change in attitudes towards women is by working with ministries and

community organizations. This approach has been highly successful

already in the Ministry of the Attorney-General, where everything is

done in such a way that the benefits of women will be clear.

The role of the secretariat has been and will continue to be that of

an advocate, facilitator and conscience within the government. Some of

the ways that the secretariat fulfils this is through grants to women's

organizations and institutions for seminars, workshops and literature,

to provide education, employment and training-related projects to

enhance participation. The women's non-traditional employment program

provides wage subsidies to employers to hire and train women in a range

of non-traditional occupations not previously open to women.

The recent appointment of a coordinator of regional programs will

ensure an enhanced presence in the regions where much of the need has

been expressed. We have established with the assistance of the

secretariat throughout the government.... to enhance access to

government programs and services on a wide range of issues for women.

The British Columbia Youth Council was created in 1985. It is a

representative group of up to 16 members from various regions, age

groups, career interests and ethnic backgrounds. Our aim is to create

open dialogue with young people and to involve them in a meaningful way

in the development of programs and policies of benefit to them. The

council toured extensively around the province last year, meeting with

young people and encouraging the formation of a provincial network of

youth groups.

Education and employment emerged as the key issues for youth in

British Columbia today, and my ministry is looking for ways to improve

access to education for them, and to provide assistance to them to

enter the labour market. The youth grants program administered by the

youth council will continue to support new projects of benefit to young

people and their communities — projects that contribute to the

development, independence and participation of young people. I will

continue to meet with my federal colleague, the Hon. Jean Charest,

Minister of State for Youth, to encourage his government's further

cooperation in supporting the youth of British Columbia.

International education. Efforts toward marketing our educational

expertise to our trading partners is now enhanced. We are in a position

to involve British Columbia talent and expertise from both the public

and private sectors in the development of the economics of our Pacific

Rim neighbours. Priority will be given to increasing the participation

of our public and private institutions and training projects in Asia,

funded by CIDA, the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank. My

ministry supports institutional initiatives to recruit qualified

international students, when capacity is available, on a full

cost-recovery basis. There has been $5 million committed to allow

institutions to provide, on a contract basis, short-term traveling

courses — for example, ESL and business briefings — in a number of

Asian countries. This investment will be cost-recoverable through

future revenues from international education projects.

Student financial assistance. We have recently demonstrated our

increased investment in students in British Columbia with the

announcement on March 27 of the new student financial assistance

program. On the basis that our students are our investment for the

future, the new program will provide them with some $50 million in

additional assistance. The new program includes many of the

recommendations put forward by the advisory committee to the student

financial assistance review, a committee made up of educators,

students, and people who work with students in financial assistance

offices in colleges and universities. The new program includes

increased student assistance limits, a new equalization fund, a

revamped loan remission program, a $12,000 loan ceiling, and more to be

announced in the next few months. The program emphasizes equality of

opportunity and personal responsibility. As always, student assistance

will be on the basis of clear need, and we will continue to be flexible

and compassionate.

Universities. We have three world-class, publicly funded

universities in this province, and their main focus is excellence —

excellence in teaching, research and students. These institutions have

a long and proud history and have made major contributions to our

economic well-being and cultural heritage. They will continue to do so.

Our university population now stands at approximately 50,000 students.

In 1986, 9,000 university degrees were granted, with a similar number

expected this year. Our capital investment in universities has

increased significantly, and it is my hope that this trend can continue.

One recent example of this commitment is my announcement, on July 9

of this year, of the approval of a $16.4 million research facility at

the University of British Columbia — the new chem-physics building.

This facility houses research and teaching laboratories for chemistry

and physics. It will be second to none in Canada and will ensure that

UBC continues to be a leader in scientific education and research.

[ Page 2489 ]

The universities have left their ivory tower. They have gone out

into the community with their expertise through university-industry

liaison offices and business development centres. University

researchers have become entrepreneurs by creating new companies in

British Columbia. Companies such as Moli Energy, Vortek Industries and

MacDonald Dettwiler all grew from university research. In fact, 57

companies, resulting in over 2,500 jobs and $170 million in sales, have

grown out of UBC alone.

The universities have responded to the changing economic climate.

They are focusing on those areas of excellence that will diversify and

strengthen the provincial economy.

The arts and the humanities play a major role in enriching our

culture and society. The University of British Columbia will be

receiving nearly $160,000 from the fund for excellence for a new degree

program in arts administration — the only program west of Ontario. A

special feature of this program will allow students to spend six-month

internships in local arts and cultural organizations throughout the

province.

Since becoming minister responsible, I have spent a good deal of

time at all three of our universities, and I'm very impressed with the

enthusiasm and dedication shown by those representing all aspects of

university life.

Colleges and institutes. Our fifteen colleges and four institutes

make up a system attended by an estimated 300,000 students last year

and provide a diversity of education and training programs at a local

level throughout the province. The colleges and institutes are

contributing significantly to the development of our technological

society by training people for our new economic initiatives in British

Columbia, such as the high-tech industry, and by participating in the

transfer of new technology to the marketplace. I'm looking for colleges

and institutes to play an expanded role in this area.

Along with the current emphasis on science and technology, British

Columbia's universities are pre-eminent in the teaching of arts and

humanities. These programs develop the true human capacity for

understanding, cooperation and perceptive thinking. Hand in glove with

the social programs at the universities are the university transfer

programs at the province's 15 community colleges. the offerings of OLI,

distributed by the Knowledge Network, extend access to advanced

education to every comer of our province.

Grants and contributions to colleges and institutes are up by more

than 6 percent as compared to last year: from over $325 million to over

$345 million. I recently made important announcements involving

significant expenditures on some of our institutions. Selkirk College

will now be able to spend $150,000 a year to lease a new and improved

space for its Trail campus. This forms part of the new downtown

revitalization program for the city of Trail. And $5.35 million will be

spent on much needed additions to the Kamloops campus of Cariboo

College. Major renovations will be made to BCIT's Burnaby campus, to

the tune of $3.67 million, and $2.5 million will go to Okanagan College

for construction of its Penticton campus. Much of that increase will go

to equipment replacement, new programs and program expansions, and to

handle inflation costs.

Enrolments in the area of adult basic education, career technology,

university transfer and vocational studies are steadily increasing,

from 48,962 FTEs last year to 50,330 this year. My ministry continues

to assist the colleges and funds a wide variety of major and minor

capital requests. This year our support will cover such varied programs

as ocean engineering at BCIT and entrepreneurial manufacturing at

Northern Lights College. As we have always done, our aim at all times

is to allow as many of our citizens as possible to benefit from

reasonable cost to the students.

Business development centres. My ministry now funds business

development centres in 14 community colleges and universities. Last

year the centres counselled more than 3,000 clients, resulting in 257

business startups, which in turn created 594 full-time and 158

part-time jobs. These centres play a vital role in increasing the

awareness of self-employment and entrepreneurship among college

students.

Fund for excellence. As always, the aim of the fund for excellence

is to invest in educational excellence by enhancing post-secondary

programs and facilities. Expenditures in my ministry will total over

$105 million this year in universities. Over $33 million will support

ongoing costs of programs started last year. A further $10.25 million

has been provided this year to the universities to support a variety of

new initiatives, such as the integrated computer systems research at

UBC, biotechnology at SFU and forestry science at the University of

Victoria.

Colleges and institutions. Over $33 million is provided this year to

support excellence programs started last year. An additional $9.5

million has been provided to assist provincial colleges and institutes

in new programs, such as equipment replacement, remote access — for

example, nursing at a number of regional colleges — and regional

coordination of adult special education. Rinding for distance education

has risen 20.6 percent over last year and now totals in excess of $11

million. In addition to almost $10 million provided this year to

continue program improvements begun last year, a further expenditure of

$400,000 from the fund for excellence will go towards the adult basic

education student assistance programs.

The Premier of this province and this government made a commitment

in the throne speech earlier this year, and I think my estimates show

that we are prepared to back up what we promised during that throne

speech.

MS. MARZARI: Madam Chairman, in the next two and a half hours

I hope that the opposition will be able to accomplish the following

tasks. What I would like to do, just for a few moments, is to outline

some of the areas around which we want to put questions forward. This

will assist your side to know what's coming up and I hope it assists my

side, as they listen in their offices, to know when they will be

expected to come.

First of all, I want to spend a few minutes discussing universities,

our definition of what universities can be and what post-secondary

education might be about. I want to talk a little bit about

infrastructure, and about the things that are required to build

post-secondary systems into strong, viable systems that assist us all

and will assist us as British Columbians. I want to talk within the

context of infrastructure about faculty, capital investments, new

techniques in education, and the financing of post-secondary education.

[3:00]

Then I will turn my attention and the attention of my colleagues to

the college system in the province. I will be addressing the autonomy

of colleges, and my colleagues the

[ Page 2490 ]

second member for Nanaimo (Mr. Lovick) and the

member for Kootenay (Ms. Edwards) will be addressing the hands-on

experience of the college system in this province.

Then we'll be discussing for a few moments students — the purpose

for which the systems have been created; the most important commodity,

the most important aspect of what it is that this system is all about;

their access, their aid, their participation rates.

Then we want to talk a little bit about job training. As you know, I

share this portfolio with my colleague for New Westminster (Ms. A.

Hagen). My colleague from New Westminster will be addressing job

training programs, and most specifically the JobTrak program. My

colleague the second member for Nanaimo will be discussing science and

technology or asking questions around that area.

So let us begin. Let us begin the task, if we may, of trying to

measure the rhetoric, very impressive rhetoric and impressive programs,

with the actual dollars and the actual ability to perform. We on this

side of the House generally subscribe — strongly subscribe — to the

principle that postsecondary education is so much a part of our

economic and social goals for this province that it must be given top

priority. I will quote from Dian Cohen, a Canadian economist, who says:

"The choice that faces Canadians is whether to

mortgage the future to the digging of ditches or to the use of our

brains. It's crucial that we give at least equal weight to megaprojects

based on the information-age premise that people are the wealth of the

economy, as we do to those projects that are still hooked on the

industrial-age belief that natural resources will make us rich."

We're talking here about balance. And in discussing balance we have

to talk in this province, right now, about planning our systems and our

commitment to those systems. The depth of our commitment is really

determined and can be measured, I think, by the thoroughness of our

planning and how well we sit down together in this province and develop

the kinds of plans for post-secondary education that will bring us

through the next ten years, to the year 2000, with a cohesive policy; a

cohesive idea about the fact that postsecondary education and the

education of our young people could well be the foundation stone of the

economic turnaround of our province. We train them here, we educate

them here, and hopefully we don't export them, we keep them here.

So then, the careful balancing of what we do with our young people

in our post-secondary systems, and the kind of dynamism that that

educated group can bring to the economy as a whole, is really what

we're talking about.

But that's the economic spinoff, isn't it? I want to address the

business of education per se. Education isn't just the knowledge

industry. It isn't just there to have economic spinoffs. Our

universities are not there simply to turn out students or simply to

job-train and become vocational institutes. I would think that much of

what has happened in the last number of years has attempted to turn

many of our educators, many of our administrators in post-secondary

education, into economic hucksters almost, in the sense that we must

now sell our universities or our colleges as great places to come to

learn a trade. The university system must be measured in other terms as

well — in social terms, in educational terms — because what makes a

university great is the quality of the contribution it makes to the

encouragement, the development and the vigilant maintenance of a decent

society. We have to demand high standards of competence and

performance, and not by the number of inventions it can market.

UBC, for example, has pulled in many hundreds of millions of dollars

because of the spinoff economic side products that professors and

administrators have been able to develop and invent. We are proud of

this. But we're not just a knowledge industry, and we can't be assessed

just in terms of economic growth, because universities aren't factories.

Consequently, if universities are about quality, and they're

measured by standards developed through the history of civilization,

we've got to talk about flexibility. We've got to talk about what

Northrop Frye calls "the dedicated mind" — the mind that loves and

enjoys learning. It prepares a person, I think especially in this

economy in this country, to be flexible and to approach life in an

open-minded way; to be able to switch career paths if necessary, and to

understand that there's more than one narrative in a person's life —

there can be many. Perhaps a liberal arts education might be a way of

helping society and individuals in society live with this period of

transition from industrial age to information age, if we can put it

that way.

Timing for a moment, then, to the infrastructure of the universities....

AN HON. MEMBER: ...break just for a second. He'll introduce the two bills, then you can go back....

MS. MARZARI: Since that's a natural break — a definition of

what universities are — and since we then move to the infrastructure, I

would propose, Madam Chairman, that we pause at this point in the

estimates so that the minister can introduce two bills which in fact

are totally compatible with the next points I'm about to make.

I would move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.

[Mr. Ree in the chair.]

The House resumed; Mrs. Gran in the chair.

The committee, having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again.

UNIVERSITY AMENDMENT ACT, 1987

Hon. S. Hagen presented a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor:

a bill intituled University Amendment Act, 1987.

HON. S. HAGEN: Madam Speaker, I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now.

I am pleased to introduce today Bill 32, University Amendment Act,

1987. This bill will amend the existing University Act by deleting all

references to the Universities Council, the University of British

Columbia student loan fund and the Joint Board of Teacher Education.

The Universities Council acted as an intermediary body overseeing university

funding allocation. It will be replaced by an advisory council which will include

direct involvement by the representatives of the universities and private sector

volunteers in the consultation process. The new council will

[ Page

2491 ]

provide for more direct communication and advice to the minister on university

issues.

The other amendments are largely housekeeping in nature. One major

housekeeping amendment is the repeal of the University of British

Columbia student loan fund, which is no longer needed since each

university has established its own student aid fund pursuant to the

power delegated to the boards of governors under the University Act.

The second large housekeeping amendment addresses the dissolution of

the Joint Board of Teacher Education. Some of the function of the joint

board will now be assumed by the council of the College of Teachers, as

provided in the recently passed Teaching Profession Act, and the others

are the responsibility of the board of governors of each university. I

commend this bill for your consideration and urge its speedy passage.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: I'm going to make the motion on behalf of

the Minister of Advanced Education and Job Raining. Madam Speaker, I

move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second

reading, with leave, later today.

Motion approved.

Bill 32 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading, with leave, later today.

UNIVERSITY FOUNDATIONS ACT

Hon. S. Hagen presented a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor:

a bill intituled University Foundations Act.

HON. S. HAGEN: Madam Speaker, I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now.

I am pleased to introduce today Bill 57, the University Foundations

Act. This bill will establish foundations for our three public

universities. The purposes of those foundations will be to develop,

foster and encourage public knowledge and awareness of the universities

and their benefits to British Columbians, and to seek private sector

financial support for the pursuance of the universities.

I commend this bill for your consideration and urge its speedy passage.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: Once again, Madam Speaker, on behalf of

the minister I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day

for second reading, with leave, later today.

Motion approved.

Bill 57 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading, with leave, later today.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: I thank the members for their indulgence.

I regret not having these messages ready earlier, and accordingly I

call Committee of Supply.

[3:15]

The House in Committee of Supply; Mrs. Gran in the chair.

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF ADVANCED

EDUCATION AND JOB TRAINING

(continued)

On vote 5: minister's office, $184,709.

MS. MARZARI: Since the bills didn't go into second reading,

and now that they are going into second reading, I won't be addressing

them now. We'll be talking about the Universities Council and the

foundation after these estimates are over. If I may be allowed, I would

like to address, just for a moment, the Universities Council.

Before I do that, I want to add to the bottom of my agenda, last but

not least — and perhaps that's because it's so important that I didn't

put it on the back of my envelope — that we will be addressing at

length, from this side of the House, questions related to the women's

program in this province.

The infrastructure of the university system is based, of course,

upon its faculty, its administrations — three solid and good

universities in this province — on their capital assets, on the

dynamism of new programs that need to be brought in, and on the

financing. May I just turn to each one of these areas for a few moments

and ask some questions that may help us all.

I begin my remarks by saying that from '83 to '85 British Columbia

suffered the largest cuts in university funding of any jurisdiction in

North America. Where other jurisdictions have increased their funding

to universities, B.C. has decreased its commitment. This is the first

year in many years that the universities and the post-secondary system

have seen a turnaround, however slight.

I must say, in my own travels through the province and in my own

contacts with university administrations, that the post-secondary

system has been reeling for some years. It has been traumatized. It has

been sent into what Crawford Kilian has called "a death spiral." The

cutbacks have had their impact. They have discouraged qualified people

from coming to B.C. and they have, as we read these figures quarterly,

sent many staff faculty people to other countries or other provinces,

most notably Ontario. In fact, it's a rather sad commentary that other

provinces are reaping the benefits of much of our post-secondary

investment over the last number of years. We have been exporting and

suffering economic and social loss because of the number of people who

have been leaving.

We haven't made that up. We have a long way to go to make that up,

with all the goodwill in the world, Mr. Minister, and with this 3.8

percent turnaround. I must admit that I have observed a new buoyancy

inside our post-secondary systems, inside the faculties and inside the

administrations. I hope that it is warranted, and I hope that the new

optimism is warranted, because we still have a great way to go in many,

many cases to regain any kind of stature and credibility as a province

in post-secondary education. We don't want to be ten out of ten in

student participation rates. We don't want to be the bottom of the

barrel when it comes to faculty salaries. In '82 I gather we were

second, third and fourth, with University of B.C., Simon Fraser and

University of Victoria. Now we are fourteenth, fifteenth and eighteenth

in Canada, I believe. We don't want to be ten out of ten in terms of

student financial aid. We don't want to be the bottom province in terms

of per capita expenditure on post-secondary education.

[ Page 2492 ]

Even with this small turnaround that we're facing now, and with the

dedication, I think, of a sincere minister, I have to lay it on the

line with the government as a whole that I hope and pray that this new

commitment is not tokenism. What I want to see is that it's coupled

with a new commitment. And I want to see a new capacity for planning

into the future.

This is where I bring up the Universities Council, which shouldn't

be allowed to die without an obituary. The council was established as a

planning and financing mechanism. I don't see anything in the estimates

to replace the capacity for that planning. I don't see anything in the

estimates to replace the function of the Universities Council. What I

do see in the estimates is a tightening and a centralization of

administration through the minister's office, rather than a

consultation with the community at large and an arm's-length

relationship with the university administrations to enable them to do

what they feel should be done in the educational area.

The infrastructure, faculty; question number one. We're basically

faced with an ageing faculty in this province, a faculty that was hired

to deal with the baby boom of the sixties and seventies. Consequently,

I'm going to ask the minister if he has discussed or consulted with the

various universities as to how it is best going to replace the

faculties that will have to be replaced over the next ten to 15 years

as the faculty that was brought onstream in the sixties and seventies

is retired.

HON. S. HAGEN: I'd like to thank the hon. member for Point

Grey for her opening comments with regard to universities. Many of the

first comments that she made I could whole-heartedly agree with. Many

of the later comments I felt were overstated, to say the least. I guess

it's because since becoming minister on November 6, I've made a point

of visiting every area of my responsibility. I visited every university

several times, as I am sure you are aware. I have visited every college

and every institute, every job training office — or ten out of 17 of

the job training offices — and met with many groups around the province.

When I travel to the campuses I've made a point of meeting

independently with the students, with faculty, with support staff, with

administration and with the board. The purpose of doing that is

twofold. Firstly, it gives each one of those groups an opportunity to

say what they want to say to the minister without having to worry about

what they're saying.

Secondly, it gives me a feeling for the university or the college or

the institute. When I leave that place, I want to feel that I have some

knowledge of what's going on from an educational sense and from a

person sense. With regard, more specifically, to the universities, the

comments made with regard to restraint or to cutbacks over the last few

years are interesting.

Not having been here over the last few years, I can't talk about the

percentages or the dollars, but I would agree with you that probably

less money went into the system. The interesting thing is that the

people who work in that system, the people on whom we depend to carry

out the education — the instructors, the professors, the college

instructors — have, I think, done a tremendous job.

The students that are coming out of our educational facilities in

this province are sought after by industry. I attended a press

conference yesterday with the Hon. Frank Oberle with regard to the big,

new announcement with MacDonald Dettwiler. MacDonald Dettwiler employs

over 600 people in this province in science and technology, and the

question was asked: "From where do you get your engineers?" The answer

was: "From the three British Columbia universities, mainly."

They like the quality. They like the product that's coming out of

our universities. I give the credit for that to the people in the

universities and colleges who are teaching those people. I think

they've done a fine job. I'm not arguing that there could have been

more money or the same money or whatever, but I think that the people

in the institutions and the colleges have shown what they're made of.

They've done their jobs over the past several years. I know things

have been tough not only in the colleges and the universities but in

the households and in small business and in big business. They've been

tough on employees around the province. It's not limited to those

areas. But I want to say that the quality of the students coming out of

our institutions and universities, in my opinion, is second to none.

With regard to the faculty question, as a matter of fact, I think it

was the first topic that I discussed when I had my first meeting with

the three university presidents, about two weeks after I was sworn in.

It's obviously a concern to them and, because of that, it's a concern

to me.

The interesting thing is that the administrations of the three

universities are not only confident that they can draw the people that

they need, but universities are, in fact, drawing the people they need

to fill positions that are going to be vacated by the ageing faculty.

I'm sure you've read the articles in the media, and you know as well as

I do the world-class people that we are drawing to our universities.

It's important to me, as it is to the universities, the students and

the parents, that we continue to draw these world-class people. The

fact is that we are drawing them, and it's extremely exciting.

I've also discussed the question of the ageing instructors with

regard to colleges. It would be nice if all the ageing college

instructors could run for politics and get elected — then they'd have

something to do. Unfortunately, not all of them can do that.

MR. LOVICK: It would improve the calibre of the place.

HON. S. HAGEN: Actually, I hear they miss you in Nanaimo.

You mentioned ten out of ten, or 14 out of 14, and I'm really glad

you mentioned student financial assistance in that number, because I

agree that we were ten out of ten. As a matter of fact, the first

question that the Premier of this province asked me to address was

student financial assistance. When the committee I appointed brought in

their findings, I don't think there was anybody more upset with the

results of their findings than the Premier of this province. As

minister, I can tell you that it's not really great to appoint a task

force to go out and get information and have that task force bring you

back the findings — which, by the way, I made public — to say that

we're ten out of ten. We immediately took steps to correct that with an

injection of an additional $50 million into that field.

I'm really pleased to be able to say that. I can't tell you the

number of people that I've met in the graduations that I spoke at in

the last couple of months.... Parents came up to me — and I had never

met them before — and said: "I'd like to thank you for what your

government has done with student

[ Page

2493 ]

financial assistance, because without that help my daughter would not be going to university next year."

That's really what it comes down to. You mentioned students, and of

course our whole system revolves around students. That's why I enjoy

meeting with them when I travel around the province. I want to hear

what they're saying. I want to hear what their expectations and desires

are, and the suggestions they have to improve the system.

[3:30]

You mentioned the word consultation. I think I can say that I have

done a great deal of consultation in the last eight months, and I've

spoken to a lot of people in the system. The reason was not that I like

traveling — I'd rather be home with my own five children and my wife —

but to find out what was going on in the system and where we could make

improvements.

In answer to your original question, yes, I am concerned about the

age of the faculties. We discuss it regularly with the administrations

from the universities. The university administrations feel that the

difference in attitude over the last eight months has made a great

difference to them in being able to recruit the people that they want.

I happened to be at the University of Victoria one day when they had

just closed a competition for a position out there. They got 56

applications from all across the North American continent, and they

assured me that they would get the person that they wanted, and it

would be the best person for the position.

I'm not saying we're not concerned about the problem; we are, and we

will continue to be concerned about the problem, because we want to

make sure that we are able to attract the best people to this province.

MS. MARZARI: I want to put that question in the context of an

overall plan, not just individual consultations, Mr. Minister, and not

just dealing with a question now because it seems to be pressing, but

the need for this province to have an overall context, and a visible,

workable plan. Nowhere is it more important to have that plan than in

the area of financing the universities. Let's move to that now.

I gather from reading old copies of Hansard

and from preparing myself for six months now for this two and a half

hours that you were probably expecting me to go into a bit of a tirade

over EPF and the fact that our province is now making 104 percent of

what it puts into post-secondary education. I am not going to make that

point, Mr. Minister. You can take all your notes on that and toss them.

I am not going to get into the fine hair-splitting about what happened

with the Canadian health act in 1977 and when it was capped, and

whether or not there was a 50-50 commitment and whether or not,

therefore, we are making a profit on post-secondary education.

What I do want to say very seriously, though, is that we are at a

transitional point in this country. We are going to have to make up our

minds — post-Meech Lake — what our relationship is with the federal

government vis--vis university financing. I don't think there has been

enough serious attention given this — not just by this government, but

by any government. I haven't seen very much coming out of the federal

government either, except the recent Senate report suggesting we go to

a system of tax points, which will return to the provinces and give

authority to the provinces for university financing.

Can you tell me what our position will be when the time comes to discuss this?

I know the conference in Saskatoon in October is probably going to be a seminal

one. My suspicion is that at that conference the provinces will probably be

canvassed for their positions, so some firmer commitments will be made later

in the game. Am I correct on that? Would you give me some indication of what

our province's stance is going to be, and would you be good enough to tell

us whether or not that's going to be made public before you go to Saskatoon?

HON. S. HAGEN: One of the conferences I attended earlier this

year was my first national forum on education, held in Ottawa, where a

lot of the conferences seem to be held. The second one I will be

attending is in Saskatoon, as you mentioned. I believe it's in October.

Interestingly enough, the president this year of the Canadian Council

of Ministers of Education is our own Minister of Education, the Hon.

Tony Brummet.

There are several things on the agenda of that meeting. As there

were several things on the last agenda, there are several things coming

up on this one. At this meeting the Secretary of State, the Hon. David

Crombie, is there. It's his responsibility federally for education.

We will be discussing, and we have discussed in the past, the

relevance and the position of the federal government in providing

financing for education. I think the general feeling is that the

federal government is looking to decrease the amount of money they've

put into provincial issues, whether it be education or anything else.

The provinces find themselves fighting tooth and nail even to maintain

a status quo. The question then is: if there is going to he a decrease,

is it going to be compensated for by tax points? That's sort of the

position we are in, but it's at a very early stage of discussion. There

are many other issues on the table at that conference. Whether or not

there will be any public discussion on it I really don't know; I really

can't tell you.

The other thing, of course, that takes place throughout the year is

that there are several meetings held between the deputies and senior

staff to work out some of the plans and options we're dealing with. But

as with other issues which we deal with the federal government on, we

would bargain very hard. I don't think we can overlook the amount of

federal money that comes into our universities through research grants.

It's a very large chunk, and it helps pay salaries and fund some

fixtures and assets on the campuses. We happen to do very well in the

percentage we get, again because of the people we draw. You know, the

amount of money a university professor can draw is really based on his

expertise in a particular area and how he is perceived on the national

scene, which I think, again, says something very positive about the

type of people in our universities.

MS. MARZARI: A point about infrastructure: we don't attract

world-class people unless we've got basic infrastructure to bring them

to, unless we have departments that are of a calibre and a credibility

that it is in their best interests to be with. Unless we have a high

morale among existing faculty and professional administrators, we can't

bring those world-class people. For every one you can name me that's

coming in, I can probably name you two who are going out — solid

people, good people who are leaving because salaries are better

elsewhere, because they are being attracted elsewhere. I'm not saying

this to denigrate the university system. I'm saying it in the context

of wanting to build and plan for a better system to ensure that we have

our planning in place, so that five years down the road a faculty

person now in Ontario

[ Page 2494 ]

might say: "Because of what I see, I'm ready to go

to British Columbia five years from now. I can make that a part of my

career path, because things are looking better there." That's what I'm

looking for — the infrastructure.

On research grants, yes, this business of bringing in federal bucks

in terms of research is an important one. But you know as well as I do

— and my colleague from Nanaimo will be addressing this later in

research and technology — that those research grants are tied to

corporate cost-sharing; therefore the research capacity in our

universities is tied to corporate cost-sharing. When you have a good

person who can set up a good lab and finance that lab and attract good

people to come and work with them because they're doing a special

project, that's fine. But when I talk about those federal tax points,

I'm talking about core funding, basic funding: the stuff that keeps an

infrastructure going; the stuff that helps our universities to stay

afloat and meet their basic requirements, not just to establish their

research labs. I'm talking about the maintenance of a good balance, if

you will, between the engineering, medical and science side and the

liberal arts side, if you want to put it that way; the foundation stone

of what Northrop Frye calls the civilized mind.

Also on financing, one more question. The fund for excellence has

always been contentious, as you know, Mr. Minister. It's important, I

think, that this province be reasonably assured that as in Ontario,

which had a similar initiatives fund, we will over the next few years

be looking forward to the rolling of that fund back into the basic

operation grants, just as a natural part of doing an appropriate plan,

so that each university and each institution can look forward to seeing

that $105 million which your ministry is receiving from the fund for

excellence this year; that an increasing precentage of that will be

rolled into the base core budget so that when we read our estimates we

don't have to add in what might be coming. from the fund for

excellence. Every administrator, every member of government and

opposition will be able to say, "This is in fact what the operating

core budget is this year," and not wait for special funding. I want you

to assure me that this is in effect what we'll be doing here in B.C.,

as in fact they're doing it in Ontario now.

HON. S. HAGEN: I find that Ontario is continually trying to catch up with us and how we do things.

Before I answer some of those questions, I've been neglecting to

recognize another important member of my staff, and that's Dr. Jim Rae,

assistant deputy minister in charge of universities. I want to say for

the record that I have a great deal of respect for the management team

in my ministry; they guide the members of the ministry staff, the

people in the ministry who do the work and do an excellent job. I'm

very proud of them, and I have met, I think, almost every one of them.

I want to commend them for the job they're doing, and I want them to

know that they are appreciated.

I have good news for you on some of the things you were asking

about. I disagree with your statement that for every good professor we

get, we lose two. I think if that was true we would have a shortfall of

professors out there, unless my mathematics is out. I think that if you

have spoken in the last few months with the presidents and with the

senior administrators of the universities, they can and will tell you

that they are not only getting good people applying but are able to

retain the good people we have in the system.

With regard to the infrastructure and the planning, I'm pleased to

say that in capital — dealing with capital for a moment with the

universities — we are currently working on a five-year plan with the

universities, where we project on a five-year basis what their

requirements are going to be on a dollar basis. We also do that with

the colleges. We are also talking with the universities about going

into a three- to five-year operating-projection budget, like we do with

the colleges. Because of the way the government does this funding, it's

not something that we can place in concrete — to use an example — but

it is something that they can use to do some planning down the road.

This is one thing that we instituted very shortly after I became

minister, because I felt it was important for them to be able to have

some guidance as to where they were going.

Funds for excellence. I don't have any trouble justifying the funds

for excellence. I commend the previous government and the previous

Premier for the exciting step that they took in establishing those

funds. There is certainly no guesswork with regard to the funds; the

funds were a $600 million three-year commitment for the post-secondary

system. The people in the system are very excited about those funds.

They think they're great. You know, the interesting thing about funds

for excellence is that in the 17 high-tech areas in the United States,

every one of those areas — like in North Carolina, the Boston Corridor

and the Silicon Valley — was started by targeted government education

funds, just like the funds for excellence.

So I can assure you that the funds for excellence will continue at

least one more year. I cannot give you any assurance that they will be

rolled into the base. My hope would be that we can continue to budget

funds for excellence on an annual basis, and that we can use these

funds the way they have been used, which is on an agreed-upon basis

with the universities and colleges, with them setting the priorities of

what they want to target. In my opinion, they've been very successful,

and they've certainly added to the standards that we have seen increase

in this province over the last couple of years.

[3:45]

MS. MARZARI: Mr. Minister, on the funds for excellence we

disagree on the basic concept. No, I shouldn't say the basic concept,

because I have had the pleasure of perusing an old document submitted

to the Universities Council some ten years ago, which suggested the

creation of a special innovation fund that would encourage and act as

an incentive to universities and post-secondary educational

institutions to do interesting programs. What I fear ended up happening

was that the tail ended up wagging the dog on the funds for excellence.

The reason that I think you see gleams in the eyes of those you dangle

the carrot in front of is that they haven't had any carrots at all for

so long that we end up in this province forcing our educational

institutions to grovel for what should be basic funding. So we simply

disagree.

But I am heartened to hear, Mr. Minister, that — if I can read

between your lines, being an optimist — the funds for excellence will,

within the next few years and possibly the next year, be rolled back

into those operating budgets. Hopefully, with a new planning authority,

that will help us plan not only our capital infrastructures for the

universities but also our programming infrastructures, so that we are

guaranteeing universities some solid core budgets that they can work

with.

I want to move away from universities and into colleges, but I have

a transitional question related to both universities and colleges. It

has to do with new programming, which

[ Page

2495 ]

should be a part of any infrastructure and any plan, and it has to

do with Open Learning, of course. I'm looking forward to the

anticipated Open Learning act, and I'd like to know when it's coming

in. Before you answer that question, I'd like to be assured by the

minister that Open Learning is not going to be used to replace faculty

and that Open Learning will be used for what it was intended to be used

for: for distance learning, for the development of adult education

programs, and for certain types of programs that can be taught without

a teacher student relationship.

My concern here, and it is the concern of many people in the

industry, if we can call it that, is that Open Learning might be

abused; that for every professor coming in, two are leaving — I will

stick to that story — and it will replace that one with a television

screen. It strikes me, and it strikes many people in the field, that

learning is discourse, and discourse is education. A teacher-student

relationship is a very important one.

I'm going to ask you to tell me about Open Learning, which I embrace

and we all do, but that it's not going to be abused in this province.

HON. S. HAGEN: It's almost as if I had written the hon.

member's notes. I really thank her for the opportunity to talk about

one of my favourite subjects, and that's distance education and Open

Learning, a very exciting concept with regard to education.

I want to correct one statement that you made, though, just going

back to research funds, and that was the statement that National

Research Council and NSERC grants need industry participation. They do

not. It's not triggered by that. On the other hand, sometimes you can

judge the excellence at our universities by the volume of these grants

that we get. Obviously, our universities are seen to be at a very high

level by people in Ottawa, for instance, who determine where these

grants are going to go. So I wanted to take that opportunity.

Also, I still disagree with your statement on losing two for every one that we gain — just so we're clear on that.

The Open Learning agency and Knowledge Network, and that sort of

distance education, is very important to me, and I feel very close to

it. It's one of the reasons that I brag about my wife once in a while.

When I met my wife in 1965, she was a charter student at Simon Fraser

University. I'm going to give you a bit of family history here. We got

married in 1967; it was actually our centennial project. In 1968 we

moved to Courtenay. At that time she had roughly a year and a half of

education at Simon Fraser, majoring in history. We started having our

family in 1970, and she has given birth to and raised five children.

During that time she decided she wanted to complete her degree, so she

became a charter student at North Island College, and through the

facilities of North Island, Knowledge Network and Open Learning, and

through the distance courses at Simon Fraser, UVic and UBC, she managed

in 1983 to complete her degree. That was without leaving home. Without

having to return to the campus, she completed her degree in history.

That really says something about what we offer people in this

province. They do have the opportunity. I want to assure you that we

are looking at many ways of improving the use of the Knowledge Network

for the delivery of adult education programs, which I happen to feel

are very important and certainly change the lives of the people who

take them. We will also be offering apprenticeship programs and

job-training programs. We will be enlarging the programming.

It's interesting that you should raise the concern about replacing

instructors or teachers with television, because I find in my travels

around the province, particularly north and east of Hope — what I

sometimes call "beyond Hope...." There is no intention of replacing

teachers or instructors with television. I don't think there ever has

been.

I find in my discussions with instructors around the province that

this is not a concern anymore, because they have seen how the programs

operate. I'm not saying that facetiously; I'm saying that as an honest

statement. I know it was a concern a few years ago. I doubt if it ever

was an intent. I agree with you that the interaction and relationship

between a student and a teacher, instructor or professor is very, very

important, as is the interaction between students and students, and all

the other things that go on in an educational institution.

That is not any sort of intention that I have, but we do want even

to improve the system. I say "even improve," because it's important for

the people of this province to realize that our Knowledge Network

system is looked upon by all the other provinces, including Ontario,

which spends buckets of money on TV Ontario.... But they don't have the

quality, and they haven't achieved the ability to deliver education to

the outermost parts of the province that we've achieved in British

Columbia. It's important for people to realize that, and I think that

it's a reason that the governments in Hong Kong, Malaysia and Indonesia

want our system. They see that it's a good system, it works well, it

delivers, and it's very cost-effective. We are working with those three

countries now to help them in developing their delivery systems in

television.

MS. MARZARI: There's a Monty Python skit where one chap says

to the other: "Well, when I was young, we had to get up and walk ten

miles to school in the freezing cold." And the other chap says:

"Luxury! We had to live in a septic tank and lick off the road every

morning before we went to school." The third chap comes in and says:

"You had good luck. We had to live in a brown paper bag in the middle

of the road." Your wife was lucky, Mr. Minister.

HON. S. HAGEN: Do you mean about going to school or...?

MS. MARZARI: She was very fortunate vis--vis her

relationship with the post-secondary institutions. If she had been a

she might have found herself frozen out. She might have found that in

Vancouver the outreach programs that did exist in secondary schools and

in church basements have dried up. She might have found, ironically

enough, that our efforts to become entrepreneurial with our college

programs and bring in foreign students at market prices have dried up

access to many programs that were previously enjoyed, both by

individuals doing long-term credit courses — not people doing

university transfer programs, but people doing part-time adult

education or perhaps working towards a degree or certificate. She would

have found herself in a different situation had she not perhaps been

[4:00]

[ Page 2496 ]

So I am addressing the business of colleges in this province with

that opening remark. The colleges in this province, from my

understanding, had a very solid foundation back in the mid-sixties and

developed themselves along the model of community colleges in every

sense of the word: in the sense that they had elected boards and were

created basically to reflect the needs of the regions that they

represented. Another reason that your wife was lucky — she was probably

involved with the college in the mid-1970s, if I'm right.

What I think we're watching happen right now in this province is a

squeeze so tight that it threatens the concept of the community

college. I fear — and many people in this system fear — that we are

moving more towards the Ontario model of there being provincial

institutes rather than community colleges. The idea, then, is that the

community college no longer necessarily reflects the needs of the

region it serves, but the needs of the ministry itself in terms of

economies of scale.

You're going to put certain pieces of heavy machinery into one

college, and therefore encourage all students in the province to move

toward that one college; that being at this end of the continuum, as

opposed to the other end of the continuum where a college is prepared

to forgo economies of scale in an effort to meet local needs. The

possibility of a physiotherapist program up in Prince George is one

good example. Are we going to do that where there seems to be a need?

Or because of economies of scale and because UBC needs to develop a

better program than it's got even now, should we keep it there? So it's

a dilemma that you have to face.

I'm asking you, Mr. Minister: are we moving toward provincial

institutes? Can we expect to see our community colleges retain their

initial intent and their initial value? Can we expect to see community

college boards being elected, for example, in the next while, which

would guarantee some at least cosmetic autonomy? Can we expect to see

an increase in commitment to the community colleges, rather than a

financial squeeze on those colleges? That's what I perceive. I get

worried when I hear stories about classrooms being overwhelmingly

large, and that the system has been tightened up to the point where it

is squeaking and can barely handle the workload it has; when I hear

about instructors being laid off when in fact enrolments are

increasing; when I hear about faculties being offered financial

incentives not on the basis of merit or with a COLA clause, but simply

to take on one extra credit course so that the college can reduce its

faculty. I get worried about the squeeze on those colleges. When I hear

about outreach programs at colleges that basically set up nonprofit

associations to work in neighbouring towns that in turn hire staff at

less than faculty wages, that worries me. It strikes me that in the

name of the outreach spirit, the community colleges are getting

themselves into the business of planning poorly their programs and

their staff needs. There's a lot of saving going on, which in the last

analysis doesn't add to the ability of the college to meet local and

regional needs.

I'd like you to talk a little bit about the autonomy of those

colleges and their ability to maintain some real presence that's

locally and regionally relevant.

HON. S. HAGEN: Again, Madam Chairman, I really appreciate the

opportunity to talk about the colleges that we have in this province,

which I feel are second to none in the country. But before I do that, I

want to introduce somebody else who has joined us on the floor here.

We're kind of shifting people to keep you alert and....

MR. LOVICK: It's harder to hit a moving target.

HON. S. HAGEN: No, it's actually that the minister needs all

kinds of input, you see, to answer these questions. The people get

tired, so we have to keep on changing them.

I'm really pleased to welcome Lorne Thompson, just behind me here,

who is the acting assistant deputy minister in charge of colleges and

institutes for the province. I really appreciate the job that Lorne is

doing. He has stepped in on short notice. You may be aware that Dr.

Grant Fisher, who is the assistant deputy minister in charge of

colleges, had a heart attack earlier this year and is recuperating. I

can't say enough about Dr. Fisher. I know that his reputation is strong

in the province; he's well respected by the people whom he deals with

at the colleges, and is a fighter for the college system. But I want to

say that I appreciate the job that Lorne has done at very short notice,

in coming in and picking up where Grant left off.

I can say categorically that the regional colleges — and I have

visited all of them — truly are regional colleges, and I would say that

they are becoming much more closely aligned with the communities they

serve. It's even broken down more finely than that, in that the

satellite campuses that each college has, or that many of them have,

really serve each of the smaller communities.

I remember going into Williams Lake to visit the satellite campus of

Cariboo College there to see how they're addressing the needs of the

Williams Lake area. What they have to offer there is different from

what Cariboo College in Kamloops has to offer, because they serve a

different community.

I agree with what you say. It's very important that the colleges

address the needs of the communities they serve. There is no intention

on my part to have them serve some sort of overall provincial perceived

need. As a matter of fact, I think that would be absolutely impossible

and certainly would be detrimental.

On the other hand, there are colleges which have unique programs

that may not be offered in other areas. This could be for any number of

reasons. It could be because they have the ability to come up with an

instructor for that program. For instance, I think of the program at

Dawson Creek which is a unique helicopter and fixed-wing maintenance

program. They teach that program there because the campus is located on

an old DEWline base, and when they bought the facilities, there were a

couple of hangars. It tended to lend itself very naturally to some

aircraft programs. That particular program is very successful. It draws

students from right across Canada. When I was there I met students from

Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, Ontario, Manitoba and the other provinces.

That's where people like Okanagan Helicopters and other helicopter

companies in British Columbia get the qualified people.

[Mr. De Jong in the chair.]

It would be wrong for me to tell six other colleges in the province

that they must offer a helicopter maintenance program, because the need

might not be there. It's important to me that each college retains its

uniqueness. It's important that they retain their uniqueness because

they are proud of their uniqueness. The people in the colleges are very

competitive.

[ Page 2497 ]

It's like the three universities. When I've asked the three

university presidents to work together, they've done that; but they are

also very competitive. I think that's good; I think it's good to take

pride in what you're offering in your educational facility. I can tell

you that the universities and the colleges do.

One of the other things I've attempted to do as minister is to be

sensitive to the requirements of the regions of the province. I

mentioned in my opening statements — and I hope you didn't take that as

rhetoric, because it really wasn't rhetoric — that I'm very proud of

the ministry. I think it's the best ministry in the government.

Interjection.

HON. S. HAGEN: I think we're getting a handle on things. I think we're starting to do a good job.

One of the things I found in traveling around the province.... And

I've taken a bit of heat for that too. I get tired.... Every time I

walk into the House, Brian Smith introduces me. They keep referring to

Hagen's travel service or something.

One of the things I found on a visit to Prince George way back in

January — the dark cold days of Prince George — was that if you can

offer people training in a certain area of the province, the chance

that they will stay there and work is that much greater. At that time

we were looking at increasing the size of the dental hygiene program,

because there is a shortage of dental hygienists in the province. We

knew that we were going to increase it, either at Vancouver Community

College or at the College of New Caledonia. The decision was made to

increase the size of the program at the College of New Caledonia,

specifically because I believe that those young people who are

trained.... And they're not all young people. I think the average age

in our colleges is something like 27, which, if you're 47, is young;

but if you're 17, isn't so young.

I believe that if we can offer those programs in the regions....

It's like the teachers' training program I talked about in my opening

address and offering that in the north to encourage them to stay in the

north. It makes me think of that old song: "How are you going to keep

them down on the farm, after they've seen Paree?" Sometimes when people

come from regions of the province into the greater Vancouver area, they

are reluctant to go back to those regions for whatever reasons. Maybe

they meet somebody to settle down with or whatever. But we are trying

to — we are in fact doing this — increase the opportunities in the

outer regions of the province, let's say, or the other regions of the

province, and we are in fact doing this.

Let's talk about boards. The question of college boards has been raised

at several of my meetings throughout the province, most often — as a matter

of fact, I would say almost entirely — by faculty members. I recently changed

the policy on the appointment of board members. While I was building up to that,

I considered in my own mind whether or not I would go to either partially or

fully elected college boards or stay with the appointed boards and go to terms.

I made the decision to stay with the appointed boards and to go to terms. The

question was put to me — or the argument was made with me — at one of the colleges:

"Why don't you go to publicly elected boards, because they can exert

much more pressure on the government to do things?" I didn't want to

be disrespectful to the gentleman who raised it, but I really had to chuckle.

I thought of my counterpart, the Minister of Education (Hon. Mr. Brummet), who

I guess deals only with the president of the B.C. School Trustees' Association.

[4:15]

I get phone calls from every board member in this province — they

feel they have direct access to the minister because I have appointed

them — pressing their case for what they want to see happening at their

college. There is far more political pressure, I believe, exercised on

the minister by his own appointed people to get things done at their

school. They don't care what the budget is or what the finances are. If

they think they've got something to fight for for their particular

school, for their college, then believe me, they fight for it. I get

phone calls from many, many board members around the province

pressuring me politically for what they think they should have at their

particular college.

I'm pleased with what the colleges have done. I would be

disappointed if we saw the same sort of political positioning take

place that we see on public school boards from time to time. If our

primary concern is for the students, if the students are our bottom

line, then that is lost a great deal in these political skim-fishes

that take place at the board levels. I haven't seen those skirmishes at

the college levels. I think the colleges are well served for that.

MS. MARZARI: I feel I should respond for a few moments on the

fact that I think you made the wrong decision, You had a decision in

front of you as to whether to go to appointed or elected boards, and

from my experience of it, I think the system, in order to be truly a

community college system, must go back to elected boards. The

skirmishes, as you call them, is basically the price that one pays for

having an open, democratic system; and a board that listens to its

constituency and makes up its mind based on the pressures that are

placed on it at a local level is probably going to make decisions that

are closer to home and more relevant to that community than those of an

appointed board. That is basically the strong position of this side of

the House, which I think is consistent with the foundation and the

values of the community college system.

I want to ask my colleagues, the member for Kootenay and the member

for Nanaimo, with their own hands-on experience inside the college

system, to talk about colleges and ask questions for a few moments —

for 15 minutes.

MS. EDWARDS: First of all, I'd like to welcome Mr. Thompson.

I know that he'll recognize some of the things that I'm going to talk

about, because he's been in the system, watching and observing and

being there somewhat.

I came alive and decided to follow this debate very closely, Mr.

Minister, from the time you began talking about ageing college

instructors. I was in the college system for approximately a dozen

years. I knew quite a few college instructors; every one of them was

ageing. In fact, they were beginning to age considerably faster than

they had been when I first got into the system, and a lot of that had

to do with what we called "restraint."

What happened to the college system after 1982, Mr. Minister, is

something I think you're glad you don't have to be called responsible

for. I'm going to lay a foundation for what I'm going to talk about

first, and that is participation in post-secondary education in the

province of British Columbia, which is as low as it can be. It's even

lower for people who come from the area that I come from. It may be

that that's because the people in Victoria are remote. We hear an awful

[ Page 2498 ]

lot about people being remote, and sometimes that's

ascribed to us who live in the Kootenays, or in the north, or even in

North Island. In fact, Mr. Minister, sometimes we think it's the

ministry that's remote.

Participation is low, and there are a number of reasons for that. I

must congratulate you for recognizing that problem, when you talked

about the student loans program. The difficulty with your addressing

the problem is that the loans program is limited. In fact, students who

cannot, for any number of reasons, get to any facility where they can

get the kind of post-secondary education that they need are not going

to be able to get into the program on a full basis. They are going to

have to wait, and even when they do, the extent of the loan that goes

to them is not nearly enough to cover the extra costs that they have

because they are going to a remote area on the lower mainland or in

Victoria, where the only universities in the province exist.

As you may or may not know, we used to have the oldest university in

the province, Notre Dame University; it existed at Nelson. During

academic parades, I'm told, the president was very proud to be very

much at the front. Well, that oldest university no longer exists, and

there is no university in the interior of British Columbia. What in

fact happens then is that the students who need to go to university

have that problem of distance; they have that problem of living in an

area remote from home. They cannot live at their parents' house; they

have to pay for that particular expense, and they are going to try to

do that over all of these major problems.

They have another difficulty if they have an interest in going into

the academic area, the university area, and that is that the colleges

themselves have had an attack on academic programs. I call it an

attack, and that is probably putting it as dramatically as I can. In

fact, what happens is that there is a funding system.... And you all

know what the funding system is. What it does is it militates against

academic education. Besides that, which requires that you have a

certain number of students, and that the amount of funding is weighted

in a certain way, and so on and so forth.... If you come from a college

in an area like mine, you understand how those weights work against you.

What happens is that the funding isn't there, and the first thing

that goes is the learning resources, i.e., the library books. The books

are no longer there. Then we begin to have decentralization attacked,

and we no longer have the academic courses going out into the areas.

You're talking about the regional colleges serving the regions, but in

fact they again have to centralize themselves. No longer do we have the

money to afford travel for the academic instructors. This becomes a

problem. It's much more difficult to get academic instructors there,

largely because they can no longer be hired on a continuing basis;

we're now hiring them on a contract basis. So we're fighting all of

these problems for a person of any age at all, the ageing student —

let's put it that way — who wants to have an academic education.

All of these things work against the student who wants an academic

education. There are many students who don't want an academic education

particularly. They may go into it at any time of life. I think that

probably the attitude has now changed: people can get an education at

any time in their life; they should. It's life-long learning, and we

have to hope that that works better.

The colleges cannot plan their — shall we call it — vocational, and

there are other programs. There are a number of basic education

programs, there are a number of vocational programs, in which if they

want to begin the program, they have to begin through Excellence in

Education funding. You have said that those are innovative funds, but,

Mr. Minister, let me tell you that because of the shortage of funds in

the institutions throughout this province those funds have to be used

for basic operating costs. Everybody puts in for an Excellence program.

They hope that they can get it onto the budget the next year; and if it

does, of course, something else goes.

All of these problems make it very difficult for the colleges

throughout this province to operate and give the best kind of

post-secondary education to the people in that region. Believe me,

there are people working in those colleges who are extremely good, and

they are extremely dedicated. There are people not only in the colleges

but in the communities who are extremely dedicated to the college and

the college system. But the colleges have these problems.

I would like the minister, who says that post-secondary

institutions.... I'm not sure if he was only talking about

universities. He said that they loved to recruit who they want. In

other words, you can get who you want because there are all sorts of

people out of work. I'm not sure that that was the background of that

statement, but if that's the case, I can tell you that it's not easy to

recruit all those people who are floating around, even those people

with the qualifications, to get them to areas in the province that you

call beyond Hope. It's partly because they are hired on a contract

basis, they don't know whether it's permanent employment, and they are

hired at rates far lower than regular faculty, and the regular faculty

at these institutions is shrinking and shrinking.

Could the minister discuss the kind of thing that he sees happening

to help improve the rate of participation in postsecondary education

for students in what we call the interior of the province?

HON. S. HAGEN: I'm really pleased to be able to address the

question. It's always a pleasure to talk to somebody who has had so

many enjoyable years teaching in the college system. I certainly

appreciate your positive approach to the colleges, to the people who

work in them and to the students.

The participation rate is the second question that the Premier asked

me to address when I was sworn in as minister. It's a very intriguing

problem because British Columbia, because of its geography and some

other reasons, is different from many of the other provinces. One of

the things we have given Dr. Grant Fisher to work on during his

recuperation is the question of participation and access. I have also

asked Dr. Les Bullen, who chaired the Student Financial Assistance

Review Committee, to chair a committee on access with regard to

post-secondary education for the province. We are looking at that, and

it is a concern.

With regard to the statement you made that sometimes it's people in

Victoria who are remote, I haven't found that. I have found the people

in my ministry to be very sensitive and responsive to people in any

area of the province. They assist me in dealing with the problems that

come in. I would say the contrary. I guess it's an advantage to me that

I don't come from the lower mainland or the Victoria area. I come from

Comox, which is not remote, but it's not metropolitan either. I can

certainly appreciate the problems that people have in accessing some

areas of post-secondary education.

I want to assure the hon. member that a priority of the community

colleges is not only to address the needs of the community and the

people in that community with regard to

[ Page

2499 ]

career-oriented programs, but it's also to address

the needs with regard to university transfer programs. This is one of

the reasons that the 15 colleges were instituted around the province:

to enable people to pick up one or two years of university courses

without having to leave home, and then transfer to the universities to

complete them. In some cases young people are not ready to leave home

at that age; in other cases it's cheaper for them to do that. I think

there are a lot of benefits to achieving your university education that

way. But certainly this is a priority with all the community colleges,

and we will continue to see that that priority is addressed.

[4:30]

With regard to what you referred to as the inability of students to

be able to afford post-secondary education, I would encourage you to

study and read the new information on student financial assistance. It

is apparent that you haven't looked at it. It provides assistance of up

to $6,500 for students, which is the amount that was recommended by the

committee. It also puts a limit on outstanding loans of $12,000, which

will do away with people having to borrow large sums of money to get

their education. At the end of completing their degree, they will owe a

total of $12,000, which I think is a significant step. It's a unique

step in Canada. We have other provinces looking at our program, and

they are very excited about it.

One of the other exciting aspects of the student financial

assistance program is what we call the "Passport to Education." This is

a booklet that will be handed out to students in grade 9, and as they

complete each year — it'll be based on scholarship, on the top

percentages, probably 25 or 30 percent of the class — they will have a

dollar amount stamped in that book. At the end of grade 12, they'll be

able to take that book to the post-secondary institute or university

that they want to attend and have that amount deducted from their

tuition.

That's important from a financial point of view, but it's more

important from a question of access and participation. Because this is

such a resource-based province, and many of the people who work in the

resource-based industries live in the outermost parts of the province,

one of the topics around the dinner table at night is not

post-secondary education. One of the philosophies behind this booklet

is that when the student brings the booklet home the first time in

grade 9, he will then talk to his parents about what will be possible

through the use of this book. And then the parents will say, "Well,

what do you want to do after grade 12?" In other words, the idea is to

get these young people starting to think earlier about what they want

to do after grade 12. They may not automatically go to work in the

local mill — not that there's anything wrong with working in the local

mill, but there are other opportunities out there.

It will encourage them to talk to the counsellors to find out the

opportunities that are out there. I believe that this will have a

significant impact in the participation rates of students in this

province. It is certainly one of the steps that we're taking. I can

assure the hon. member that we'll continue to work on this program

through Dr. Grant Fisher's study, and also through the committee that

is headed by Dr. Les Bullen.

MS. EDWARDS: I was talking about remoteness in a very physical sense.

Something that is remote is something that is distant from where you are. If

you live in the Kootenays, then Victoria is remote. We have very sensitive,

responsive people in our area as well. I think there are many sensitive and

responsive people in Victoria. I'm talking about a distance problem. However,

I would have to say that when we have the minister talking about the resource

communities in British Columbia, where in fact the conversation is not about

post-secondary education, I would suggest that the conversation is about post-secondary

education every bit as often as it is in any other home in British Columbia.

I'm pleased to know that you're putting out a booklet, but I think

you might be much more practical if you provided some better access to

first- and second-year post-secondary education at all levels, and some

access to third- and fourth year university courses throughout what we

call the interior of the province. It is the interior of the province.

That's fair. Remoteness is simply a point of view, like age. That's

what I'm talking about. In fact, there are a number of programs in this

province that are being presented by foreign universities. Also, for

example, students in my area are going to the University of

Saskatchewan, which has an extension program that is long and was

founded years ago. When people want an extension program, they have to

go out of the province to meet their specific needs. In fact,

frequently it's offered by Gonzaga University. Why is it we don't have

three of our outstanding universities in British Columbia offering this

sort of thing?

However, I'm going to get back to colleges specifically, and I want

to talk about a couple of things. The first thing is your choice to

have appointed rather than elected boards. I would suggest, Mr.

Minister, that you talk about something that's really beyond belief.

You said you chose appointed with terms. Now had you chosen elected, I

can assure you that you probably would have chosen terms as well. You

had the choice of doing what you wanted with boards.

There are some major problems with having appointed boards. It's

simply that they are appointed, and they are seen to be appointed, and

particularly with the penalties that are in place in this province for

members of boards, they are seen to be people who will have to agree to

a certain extent — I leave the measure of that extent open right now —

with the minister who appointed them, and with the government of which

that minister is a member.

You're talking about skirmishes on elected boards. Mr. Minister, the

point of having skirmishes is that the community gets to talk to the

people on the boards. When you have only one group of people, who are

specifically directed to the government, for example, the members of

that board are not even able to operate as well as well as they could

had they been elected. In fact, when something happens that looks like

it might be a political action, everybody on that board is painted with

the idea that that is a political decision, whether it was a political

decision or not. Nobody on that board who has been appointed by the

minister can get away from that. It's a problem for appointed boards,

and I think that it should have been recognized.

I also was talking to you, Mr. Minister, before you did your college

board appointments, and you suggested to me that you had included and

were looking to include some appointments from various other sectors of

the community that had not generally been appointed to college boards —

unions were one of the major areas that you mentioned. I don't believe

that you have followed up on that, and I would wonder why that hasn't

happened.

I would like an answer on the boards, but I also would like to talk

a little about open learning, as you've talked about it as a marvelous

invention, and how it's happening. A number of

[ Page 2500 ]

methods of distance education have been developed

that are very good. I think there are a number in process that are not

very good. One of the ways that we could quantitatively decide whether

an open learning system is any good is to look at the completion rates,

and I can suggest to you, Mr. Minister, that a lot of us have looked a

long time at a lot of open learning and distance education processes,

and find it very difficult to find anybody bragging about the

completion rates.

What it means is that committed students at a level that they

understand can deal very well with most of the systems of distance

education we have right now, but other students fall by the wayside at

a rate that we don't like to talk about. Again, if we are going to have

good open learning — and I don't care whether you're suggesting that

there aren't any good models here or anywhere — it takes a considerable

commitment of development money. But whether you get that development

money or not, there are stages in the educational process where you

simply cannot avoid having it happen, if there is a person there

facilitating the learning that is going to go on by the student. I'm

simply suggesting that we are not evaluating in any full, fair way the

kind of distance education that (

a) we could have and (

b) that we do

have.

MR. R. FRASER: I look forward to joining this debate, Mr.

Chairman. The reason I want to do so is that I like to point out that

the opposition always feels that all you need to do to solve a problem

is to pour more money down into the problem. It isn't true; it's never

true.

This morning we were pouring hundreds of millions of extra dollars

into health care, and yesterday one of the members over there said,

"It's only $104 million," like it was nothing.

MR. WILLIAMS: Have you ever talked to the member from Little Mountain? As a money-thrower, she's unparalleled.

MR. R. FRASER: The first member for Vancouver East says my colleague is a money-spender? Unbelievable!

When you talk about funding, it's not how much, it's how well.

That's what really counts — that's the secret, right? I'm going to help

you over there learn something new. When you talk about participation

rates, you always talk about, it seems to me, the lack of money. It

isn't the lack of money that affects the participation rate, from my

point of view. The work and the research I did with my colleague from

Surrey here pointed out that it was the attitude of the family, the

attitude of the community.

One of the things that I think we really ought to explore when it

comes to participation rates in post-secondary education is: what are

the attitudes of the high school teachers? What are they doing to the

students when they say: "You are bright, you should attend a

post-secondary"? Do you ever hear a teacher saying anything to a kid in

grade 8, 9 or 10? You don't hear it very often. You should, though. You

should hear it all the time. The teachers, those people who themselves

have had post-secondary training, should be saying to their students:

"Think about your career after grade 12." You don't hear about it very

much. They ask us: "What are you doing to increase the participation

rate?" The teachers have an opportunity unparalleled; they are there

all day long.

In fact, the loan-grant system we have here is amazing; a student can borrow

up to $6,500 a year, have a debt of $26,000 and pay back $12,000. What a

bargain! I'm not sure that will encourage people to use their own money,

but that's a great opportunity, no doubt about it. In fact, the government's

been so generous that you can get — if you can believe it — credit store loans,

I understand, for making contributions to Greenpeace. Now there's a remarkable

idea — an organ