;Jo. 32 GNEDITED :'?..AN SCRIPT HOGS£ ·JF ASSZ:1ELY 3:00 ?.m. - 5:CO p.m.

:<ove~er 19, 1979 Tape :Jc. 1159 !'he Ecuse ::::et 3.t 3 :GO ? .:1. ~1r. 2:;;ea::er in ':he Cl:ai.r. :1R. SPEAKER (Sirn,·.ns l : O·!R. SP£.<l.KER: Order, please~ 3TATEME1--l'!'S BY :1!N!STERS: The hen. the Premier. )l:1 - l P~~IER PECKFCRD: ~r. Speaker, in response to a number of questions: since t:.'1e House opened as they relat.ed to er.:~loyc::ent:. .lnC unemployment in the ?rovince,! ·;~auld l-1ke to :nake t.he following st.atement. It gi•Jes me ;nuch ?leasure to i.nfor:n :.his ho~.

House :.hat our Province is experiencing its s:.rongest employment grow~'1 since 1973. ?or c..'le ::irst c:en :nonths of !,379, ·Ae :.ave recorded a net J..ncrease of lO,JCQ jobs ::ompared ·Ni~h an annual nee i::.crese c;;f :! , 200 jobs over t.h.e 9ast: ::se years. Hear, hea.r: zhcwn a net :nc::'ease of 9,000 ;;:ecEJls. !:1 effec-::, we are now creaci.ng jobs £as~er :.n [_:te ?rovi.nce' s '.me:nployment riite. last jedr. The ::ate beg3-n to drop 1.n April dr.d ~y t:he t.'l.ird ~ua:::-t:e.t of 2su

:-loveml:ce):' 19, 1?79 Tape No. 1159 :JM - :2 P?.BUER ?ECY-.FORD: :;~eat extent, :;o gcverr..ment ~xpenditures on consc:r'.lction projects and ::o the ::ece:1t S'..Jing toward. resource ind.ust...:y development. The services and goverrunent secto...: has nei~~e= increased nor declined in employment during 1973. The grow~~ in Newfoundland's eccncmy in 1979 'dill ::8ntinue t::o receive a i::oost f.=om the st:::ang advances achieved in the qoods-producing sectors.

Fish landings continue to increase rapidlt as ~~ey have since 1976, largely as ~he ::esult of improved cont...:ol of and :.tccess to our own fishery resources. !-lining output has risen dramatically because of increased iron ore ?rodnct:lon over the ::.ast year >;hen :..'1e industry suffered the =ffec~ of a ;?rolonged strike. -:cnstruct,ion a::;-::.:.vJ.t·r has increased because of inc::essed house-building and private industriJ.l construction o1nC as a resul:. of. ccnsi.derai::le! government- :±.nanced construction of highways and ~ydro-electric ~~ejects.

:'ape ll&O PK - - ?:-e.::<ie::: ?e::ki'or:i: }lanufact.uring has experienced :::he benefits of increasin9 fish proc<;;ssing and ::'ull capac::..t.y production in the newspr.lnt ~ndust:-y along with encouraging increases in output amount t~e Province's various other manufacturing industries. The serv1ce sectors have also had a good year i.11. 1379 as evidenced by employme:lt ir.creases in the !:rade and personal and bus!ness services sectors. -:'his bro2.ci ::..;,.crease ::..n econcr:u.c activit:! will have a sccng effect on incomes earned by both individuals .lnd businesses in :lewfoundland in 1979.

Ever. with the increases i.n employment ar.d L-.come experienced in 1979, ~Iewfcundlar.d ::ontinues to :eel a st=ong seasonal .;::at::.er:; in i.,::;:; economy. The bright econo~1c per£ormance vf 1979 has ielped alleviate our ser.tous une:npioyment si::uation. 3ut. this government ·.riil continue ':o work towarC developins a :nore st.able year :::our:d econcrny wh.tch ·,..ill prcvidt: greater security for :·Iewfcundlanders ::hrough !.t:s policies ::oward resct.:.rce development. and greater economic sel:-reliance . .:.. -am :;:leased, :·".r. Speaker, to ;:resent -:his ':=> ::he House.

Rear, hear! ~he han. :nember for t!"te 3trait of :Selle Isle. Well, :.1r. SJ?eaker, i:1. t.'1e absence of c.he :eacier of the 2rcpcsition, and in the aCsence of my colleague, ~he mer.~er :or :"err a !iova \l·!r. :.<.Jsh} ,.;ho is our SfCkesm.an on these :;.acr;e::s- ;:;c;;:h o:: 'Nhcn,I :nay ':e!.:.

Your Honour, are ;;bout ;::ublic business, the public weal 1n another pl.;,.ce, tu:::. 1n ':his ?rcv~nce - :nay say a ft?.w wcrds ;.;~::.h respect. to the Premier'5 statement. ?remier l:a.s :fJ.llen awe'{ !rem ::he standard whic:h he earl:.er est.;Ll.:.-:;hed, :::clleasues :Jf :.e-::tlng people on t.hL~ :.;ide t',ave cop.1es 3. li::-:::..e ::.n ad·Hnce 3.r:d 2S13

:1ove::tber 19, 19i9 Tape 12.60 ?K - 2 .:.tr. Rober:.s: sp~kesmen on th~s side a little in advance with stater.Jents. This would make cor..mem:.s in respcnse to Hin~sterial StaJ:ernen::s, !".r. Speaker, a little better, and I would ;;uggest that. '-"Culd help all concerned. So let me say that I hope the ?rernier will be aJ.:::le to revive the: practice which he had hithert.; ::egun. :.Jell, Hr. Speaker, I think we 0:1 this side should begin by welcoming ~~e news contained in ~he Premier's statement. I am nat sure how new it is.

His colleague, t~e :1.l.niste.::- o£ Labour and - ·.;hatever it is Labour and Manpower O·tr. JiJm) had already released exac:.ly =his iniormation to the House several days ago in response ~o 2robinq ques~ions from one or the other of ~y ~olleagues on this side. !·Jonetheless i::. is good news that at long last the nmnber of :1ew jobs bei:lg c::;eated 1n Newfoundland and Labrador .l.S greater than the i:tcrease in ::he work force. And no per;::on in thls ?rovlnce concerned with t:he public interest could do anything ocher than ::.o 'Nelccme it, ar.d we Co so unrese:::-vedly, :as14

AE-l step fcr .. arC. is !.n no ·.1ay t-he result of ar.y ac-::i.cn or any cr..is::;;icn :-y t-he gove::ntt"'!nt of e-is Province. T:-:.e ?retr'ier natl'ed a nu:rber of :..s fa:..:: ':o say ~"<at in eac.\;. case ::he advar;ce is tr:e :::esult either of action by t.l-:e Govenrr.ent of Canada - and ':hcre 1 I :r.igl'n: sayJ :::he for::-.er aCr.;ir.istraticn, r.c-t t..'le ?resent cne.

The effects of t!:e policies o5" <::.':e present adr:ii!'istraticn have net as :;e.t been fel't:i the1 'dill '>.,;,! f<!ar- or the :-esult of Frivate sector activity, a:. ,!or exa:--pler t!1e ircn ore industry ·;~here , of course, ':.he st:::ii:e ·~:as settleC,no !:.'canks to the government; i~ was settled i.n the nottal course by ~le cc~pany and ~y the ~nion :::ep:::esentir.g ~~e e~ployees and the result is :ecple are back to '"'Crk. :·!r.

SpeaJ.:er, -:he prirre reascn -;.,·hy cur econcny toCay is :rocre buoyant than it ':'las !::een !c::: sc-:r.c ti::'e is surely the Cecrease in t:he C'anaCian Collar as agai.!"',St -:l:e Sir, th.:.s is not ':1-:e o.r::ortun.:.::.:;

~lover:-l:er 19, 19'79 "P ?CE!:?'!5: exarrple of :he Government cf C'anaCa :.::fects t..lce present r;overnment of CanaCa, infects t:he present ~overnrr.ent of t..'1is Province so ':hat we can see sol!'e t::eaningful ccntril:-utions being :naCc by them towards the development of t..i.is t' rovi:1ce ':s economy. ~P. . .S?E;t.KEF: (Sirtms) :!R.PC\•lF?,: Eear, !tear! Hen. Ylinister oi 1'ourisrr.,.?.ecreaticn anC C:>.ltt:re. ~-!r.

Speaker, several :.:cnths ago, the government made a decision to have t..~e advercising and promotion p:ogra~~e of t:O.e Cepart:'!lent of Tcurism,?.ecreation anC Culture carried cut t:y a ;Jrovincial ccr.pany as oppose~. to t.".e previous ;:clicy of using a Toronto or ·~ontr~al J:aseC :'irm. '!':.is Cecis!..on !::y gover:-.rr.en~ was baseC en t=--.c fi=-:n !'::;el:..af '::hat :.:e have ;.;it!",in t::is ?rovince a vial:le and grotdng acivertising inC'-lstry wit!-: t21e necessar: expertise to ::andle t..'te tm.:riS!l'l aCverr:.ising acc!:n.:.nt.

T!",e Depa.r;::nent of ':"ourisrr:., Fecreation and CultU.t''.:! ~~ill spend alroos:: Sf<;o ,OCQ t:-.is year i:: our c:orr:;:eti tive tourist. c:.a:::ket. !\gain, I a:r ccnvinceC t:Oat ~~y ;.avir:g ::.::e incr~aseC: :;rcCuctivic:y is greater. C'r. Cc-:::ober l2t!i unC 13t:: :::;c ~"c~ar-:::~ent cf Tourism, ?ec:::eaticn and Culture ?laced advertisments full:; cwneC ~ 1 ewfoundlanC. ccr:>r-anies respcnC.cc' "::C "::his advcrtis:::e:-:t.Jt:l 2S16

:l"overn.cer 19, 19i9 Tape 1162 ;,:;c - 1 :·\?... ?C\iEP.~ companies .,..e:e !.hcroughly evaluated by a comt:"~.:..teee composed of '!'aurist: 3ervices, Treasurj Board and ~~e Depar~nt of Indust:ial Development. ~erefore, I am delighted and proud co be able to announce today ~~at: Saga Communic3tions ~i~ted, a wholly-owned Newfoundland and Labrador company, will become t.."'le agency of record for t:."'le Depar"t".men't of Tourism, Kecreation ~1d Culture.

We in the Department of Tourism realize t:.~at ~'"lis is a radical departure from past prccedures; however, it is ~einq done in conjunction wi~~ t:."'lis government's policy of supporting local industrJ and assis"t.ing in every way possi.Zle ':.he employment oi our . ..,ork.force. Even more impor'tant.ly, :1r, Speru<er 1 it: is in keeping with the basic philosophy of ~~i3 ;o·4e~~ent ~'"lat. :iewfcundland and Labrador has come of age 1 that we are capable of managing our own affa~rs 1 ~1d ~~a~ ~e, as citizens i~ ~~is ?rovince, need t:a.'te a second seat: t:o no one in Canada, Nortil. America or the world.

Thank you, ~r. Speaker. Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER: {Si~

s) The hon. the member for CarDonear. HR. ?.. XCOF.E.S: !1r. .Speaker, in ~-e absence of my colleague from ~wispor~e (Ar. F. ~itel, who is ~~e Opposi~cn spokesman for Tourism, r have been asked to make a brief co~~~nt en ~~e :ninist.er' s st.ate:r.en:::.. Let me say on behalf of all cf -:ny colleagues on chis side ~~at we are ext.remely delight~d wi~~ ~~is s't:at:ement .\fter .seven years in t:.n.is House '"'e have been pleacing wi-::.l'l t::le gover:-.ment: c£ t."lis ?::evince .::o do exaC't:ly . ..,.hat: it ciec.:.Ceci t.o Co today. Long before :rry ti~, :tr.

Spea.kcr - !. am iere new, t:.is "'-.S stu-:::..ng rr:y fLf'=..'l. year - '::rf ~en. colleag;;.es from t:he St::ait o:: Selle Z:sle (.'1r. Fn.Oer"tS) anC. 'l'rin.:.t."j - 3ay de '/e::d.:. {:1r. r. ?.ewe) ·..,.auld surely ::on.fi:::n :..'i.a-:. am not exasserat:~ng ·,.,nen

:love:r.be:- !.9, 1979 Tc::~.pe 1162 EC - 2 :1R. ?... !100RES: r say seven years ~s a long e~me eo be asking t..r,e government of :.,r,is Province tc heed our call eo employ a :tewfoundland agency in advertising our touris't po1:.ential ,md to employ :lewfoundlanciers in :.'"lat. agency. We are delighted, !1r. Speaker, that ::.he :r.J.niste.= has :.aken t..'1is decision and •t~e nope e."la:. i:. is just an indicat:.ion of his m.inisterial policy in the future. Thank you. SCME HC:-.1. :1Et>J.BERS: MR. 5P£AKER: (Simms) aay de Verde. !1P.. F • ?-OWE: Hear, hear~ ORAL.

QtiESTIONS The hon. t.l1e member for !'rini :::y - Mr. Speaker, in t..~e absence of t..'1e ac'ting ~linister of Fisheries (Mr. Goudie) 1 I would like to address a question to t.~e Premier wit..:, respect to tb.e Fisheries Developt>'.ent Corporadon of Newfoundland. As you know, Xr. Speaker, i::: is tb.e corporat:t.on :.o co-ordinate the development of t.'1e pn.ma..ry landing and distx~u~ion per~ or cent=e.

New, Sir, 4n view of ~~e fac~ ~~ac t..~is: centre 'Mas estimated to cost ~500 million over be nex~ five years and this year 'Me have saen a vo:::e of only $100 1000, whic."l represents some:::hi:l.g in :::."le or de:- of • 2 per cent, which can only be inte:preted as a to6.en \tote for the development of :::.'lis pa.:-ticular port, would the ?:-err.ie.:- be kind enough, Sir, eo explain \olhy 1 ia fact, we only have .2 per cent of the :ntal est.i.:nated cost for :..'lis Cist:-D::ution pert 2S18

;;;u - 1 :-::e :1cn. t:l:e Pre:r:ier. ::earc. :::1.e .:i;;ure S.300 ::lillian :or the c:evclopnent: of ~l"lc ;;;or-::. I t:tir:k ?Crt and a.istriZution cer,trn ut. Har~our Grace. So I <.;.ue.;,tion t.ha:.:. ";;, ZS13

.:>J - T::.e hor.. the Pre.-:,ier, tnat ti1to Goucrnrnent of :Iewfou!'Hilanti ~.as macic an application :::;;

!'iove:nber 19, 1979 ?ape no. 1164 DW - 1 ?RE~!ER ?ECKFORC: The whole question of the success of that application depends largely upon, as ! indicated earlier, the disposition of the Northern cod stock and the present dis- sagreement between the federal authorities and ~he provincial authorities over the disposition that that cod stock will take and over :he whole questioning of licensing policy md the proba- bility, hopefully the reality,of assigning a number of trawlers to that particular :acility. A supplementary, Mr.

Speaker. ~1!L SPEAKER {SIMMS): ~inal supplementary, the han. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. !1!t. !:. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, surely this is a classic case of putting the cart before the horse. One would have ~hought that an assessment of the Nor~hern cod stock and what have you would have been done before this grand announcement :or the super- port was ~ade. Sir, is the ?remier saying now that there has been ~o change o! attitude what5oever on ~he part of the administration with respect to the building of the superport or the carrying on of the ?isheries De~e1opment Corporation of Newfoundland?

Is he saying everything is going ahead full steam ahead? And could he give some indication as well, Sir, - the Premier has menticned the fact that an application is before DREE,presumably for t~e S2SO million,the shared costs bet·..,.een the two gover-nments, 'i'hat about the other $250 million from the private Could the Premier indicate what progress has ~een ~ade ~i~h respect ~o at~racti~g pri~a~e enterprise money into the Province ~or t~e pur?ose oE get~ing that extra 5250 million?

And couLd he also in ans~ering that question explain why,after the great announce- ~en~ of the superpcrt,we are raall; new assessing che ~orthern cod stocks? Should nat this have been done before t~e announ~e- ment was made, prior to an election? The hon. the Premier.

~.:ove::'lber 19, 1979 Tape Ho. 1164 DW - 2 Mr. Speaker, I had no involve- ~en: with ~he announcenent ~t Har~our Grace.

All I can tell the han. member is t~at there is an application presently before DR~E and,of course, that muse go through an assess­ ment procedure which has started as it relates to the Northern cod but more particularly upon the disposition of the Northern cod stock, that is Newfoundlanders versus non-Newfoundlanders, and secondly, as it relates to the whole question of of!shore fishing capability on the Northern cod stock or mid-shore capability on the Northern cod stock, because :hat is very-· i~portant for the whole question of the viability of Harbour Grace.

Now the third point has to do with~ the han. member raised the issue of SSOO million a:; a in. SSDO million is a figure which I have already indicated to the han. member that I do not accept and 1 therefore, I do not knew i! there was somebody who said :~ac there would be a fi~ty/fif:y cost sharing with the private se::ar, 5250 million and $250 million. These are figures that I ~m not ~amiliar with in my discussion of the whole question of Harbour Grace. I am familiar with figures,but I am not familiar with these figures. So the DREE application

Nover..ber 19, 1979 Tape ~<o. 1165 ~iM - 1 ??P">J.IER ?EC:.::?DRD: i.s not one ".rJhich l1inges on 5250 :nillion warteh of investment. Fourthly, !etr. Speaker, yes ,there has been a lot of interes~ shown by the private sector in invest~ng in this facili~y. There have been ~ number of meetings held, quite a :ew meetings held,wi~~ people in tbe fishing industry and outside !:.~e fishing industry who 'Nant: to get involved, 'Nho are eager to participate in investir.g funds in tilis j{ir.d of .:acility in Harbour Grace. ~R. SPEAKER (Simms): A new question, the han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. ~-tR.

ROBERTS: :-tr. Speaker, my question:> would be for ':he !1inl.ster of Healch and ~'ley g:::ow cut of the announcement made ~n :.he weekenc!. !:y 1 : believe 1 ~1r.

Socking, !:.'le General Sec:::etary-is he'?- ~f tile New:ound.Lmd Association ~£ ?ublic Employees 1 ! a.'!l not sure of his title but as a senior spokesman for the ~?E Union, Can ~;c :niniste::: beg!.:;. by <:elling us exactly '.rJhich hospitals i::. ~'1e ?:'evince ·,;ill be ..:..:fected i: the employees :::epresented by AAPE, and belong::..:v:: -co I believe it is ca.lled, the Hasp!. tal Support Group or the Hospital se:cJices :3roup of employees within :-IA?E, if they 3.c car:::y ::."J.rough ;yi:.h thei::: announced intention to go on st=ike? ! understand 5'...lch a :su-ike would be lawful assu.rni:1q a given nu:nber of days eLl9Se~ che requi:::ed not.lce has been g.tv·en •.mder tl1e ?ubllc Se:-r:.cc Staf: Relations !he hen. :1i:~.lster cf t.::ealt:h. /lR.

ECUSE: :-tr. s;;ea.ker, ::.here J.re a rn:.mter of hospitals, :;.;·.J, of -::ourse,the hcspit:als have tndi..vidual contr:1ccs ,I gue:ss,·w1.::.h the ~-lP..?E :Jr c:U?E :.miens and ::here are a nu ... n.be= '::Oa:t cc:r.e ·.mder cr.c :-::?£ anu and :: 3.o ::oc knew J.ll of ::.hem, : K.nmv ::.here have l:ee:: seven :.nst:it'.ltions, and they :;.re :we .:~.11 hospital.::;~ c·,{o of <::hem are .:oenior c;.c1.::ens "names, 2923

~1avernbe:: 19, 19i9 Tape :-Ja. 1165 :m - 2 :-t.R. HCUSE: and =he names I can recall, Springdale is one, Lakeland Homes in Gander 1I think 1is another one AN HON. ME:-!BER: That is a senior cit:izer;,-; 1 :-.or:re. :-!R. EOUSE: '!es, and there is one other senior cit:.izens home ar.d a couple cf ':.he ~at"t.age hospitals,::: think. do not ~no~ ~~P. exact - MR. SPEAK~:?- (Si:nrnsl: t~e Strait of Belle I$le. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, :-tr. Speaker, Your Honour anticipated I ·;~as about to ask a supplementary, and ,as always 1 'leur Honotl!:' is dead on.

Can the minister ~ell us,please,what contingency st:.eps he is -:aking to deal wit:.h th.e :;:;ossibili::y-and ! :-:.c9e at <:his Stage it is no more; t.han a ?OS:Jibilit?-o:: .3. :;;t:::::ika r 2ar~i=ularly ~£, as r understand may well be the =ase, ~awful strikes .1re carried out by t!:.e - ·,.ell,: ·Nill ·..;ait until the gentleman from St. John's Zast E;-:te.!:'n is :'in.lshed,because ! do war:t t.he minis;;:er to ·:1ear t..'1e ::j_uestion. But he ::e=t:.unly can r:.ake advice :rem his colle-ague is he wishes.

Tape 1166 ?K - l ~~. Rober-:.s: Mr. Speaker, par::.i.cularl;· if, as ·.ve expect, You f:.ncw, notices of stike ac-::ion a.re served in res.&-ect to some of the lar;;er hospi':al:; ;;.ere in St. John's. And the minister, I tnink, will 21.gree that '.:!ven ::.hough he may not nave had forr.tal nocices yet, the Health sc::.ences C<Wt:re :1r.d the Janeway, I believe, are also on the potential strike list, as well as some of the larger hospitals outside of St. Johti 's.

Could he tell us, Si.r, what contingency steps he is ::.ak:.ng? 'dhat steps D.e is taking to prepare for s~ch a strike should l": ::orne about that it does, in fact, happen? !1R. S?E).JG.:R (SD1 .. '1S): The hon. ~1inister of Health. :•!r. Speaker, only tbe r:.or::nal things that ::an be jane. one of the things, of course, is the gearing down at the hos?itals, a~d getting as ~any people heme or to ocher instit~ticns as possibly can be done.

As the HousE: kncws 1 the ' .. :nion usually gives a seven days notice and they are in a legal position to str1.ke after seven jays. >m. ?.CEE!<_TS: They are required l::y law to do that# :1R. HOUSE: Yes. Nell that ,r think,:.~ the thi:.s ::hat has to gover:1 us at th1.S par'ticular point in 't:.rne, that anytime aftc.::- the seven days r:.hey may go on strike.

So eve:::y base has been ;:over0d and the ~ospitals have '3eared down co that. the unions do not go on .:o:trike,or the '..ln.l.cn does not: go en striKe at ::bat ;:;,e :Jeces:;;ar::· ;:recaut...:._ons, :1nd one .ls, of ccu!.'"SC, no adr:ll::.tanccs, and ~ht; ether is get:t:.ng as r:-.any s-ecple :;erne .35 ~css.:.ble . .:-m. 2C2ER'!'S:: :?925

'!ape 1166 PK - 2 ;.~R. ROBERTS: Thank you, !-lr. Speaker. You Y.now, obviously ~his is the fi:1al one., as Ycur Honour says, but !. will be asking another question i.f ! can later en, because the matte.:' is too important because, obviously,no steps arc being taken to guard aga~nst ~t.

C.J.n the mi.""l.ister chen tell us, ;;;lease, '#hecher tte gover:r.ment will be using the power conferred UFOn them under the legislation to designate some, if not all, the employees in these i:lStitut:ions as essential; 1'he effect of that designation, cf course, as the minister reali~es,~s to take away =rem these employees the right to strike lawfully. It does not 3top from striking, it sinply stops from strking lawfully.

Can ::he :niniste!:' tell us \-Jhether any enployees are ;oing to be iesi?nat~d as essential or are we just going to sit back and watch by far ~he larger 2art of the hospitals i~ ~he ?r~vince closed or ::::y to stag,;;er on without the help c.r - what? - ::.4c-c."lirds of the staffs affected? :1aybe two- ehirds, The hen. Hinister of P.:ealt.h. :-ttl.. HOUS2: that ~articular :opic, ::he designation of essential peop:.e. say also chat - the me:nber sayS" obviously nothing :ta;; been done.

There is very lir::.:le ::hat can l::e dena when you are t.1.lking about st::::.ke act~on, you have notice of sc.ri:-ce action, 2!.;Cept the <i:92S

November 19, 1979 Tape 1167 EC - 1 MR. UCUSE: precautions,excep~ ~1e steps ~1at are being taken and t..1at is to gear the hospital down as muc.'i. as possible. The fact about ~~e essential e~~loyees i.s a 11e.ry complicated one 1 and ! t..'tink there has been a ruling qui t:.e recently t..1at:. you have to designate ~1e people rat..1er than the positions. This is a topic of discussion that is going to be bet:.'W'een t..'le three divisions concerned , the Department of Labour, Treasury Board and ourselves, at a meeting,hopefully 1 sometime t..1is week. MR. R:OBER'I'S: HR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Belle Isle. Mr. Speaker.

The hen. the member for t.h.e St:ait of MR. ROBERTS: Ano~1er question, if ! might. MR. SPEAKER: Seeing nobody else standing • • '1R. ROB£Rl'S: Well, one or t'W'O of my colleagues ;.~as kind enough perhaps to forbear.

Could the minister tell us, please, while we are on - you ~now, it is obviously a crieically ~mpor~ane matter - could he cell us ~hat steps he, as ~~e Minister of Heal~~, is taking ~i~~ a view to seeing i£ the negociaticns ·..-hic.'l have noc been successful in resolving ~'le ca.tters in dispute bet:"".leen t.'"l.e employers and employees - can he :.ell us what steps he, as Minister of Heal~~. is cakinq t.o trt to get ~"'.ese back togeu-ter, given t:..hat ·NnJ.le he may not lawfully be t..'"l.e employer, in t..'le long run, t..i.e han. gentleman from Humber '/alley {Hr.

House) is responsible for t.~e administ:ation of healt..~ services in t..~J.3 Province and for ensuring t..'lat t..~e people of ~~is Province nave access to adequate h.ealt.'l care services? The hon. che Minister of Healch • • "!.R. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, as che :1on. =-.ember knows, ~'"le negotiating boC.y in ~1.i.s par'ti::ular case is Treasu_ ... y Board, of course, and ·o~e have continuous input to Treasury Board. 1 knew c.'leJ are -:iaing dVerJt.."'.ing t..i.ey can to prevent a stri~e in ~"'.is ?rovince.

~loverr~er 19, 1979 MR. ROSERTS: :1?.. SPEAKER: (Simms) Tape 1167 EC - 2 Mr. Speaker, a supplemen:ary. A final, final supplementarJ. ! believe your colleague from Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) is wal':lng. MR. ?.CBERTS: :ry friend from 'r'orngat Mountains has some pointed and probing questions '•micb. will doubtless not. be answered by the government. ~r. Speaker, a question for ~~e Minister of Healt..'l (!-lr. House).

I: is obvious he has done not..'ling - let me ask him again, has he as tile Minister of Healt..'l, done anyt.."ling at all :o try to head off or to prevent a strike ~'lat:. could conceivablJ close down a very large part of the hospitals in t.'lis Province? :-tR. SPEAKER: :1R. HOUSJ::; S0!1E HON, !.1EMBER5 t SCME HON. XEMBEFS: :m. ROBERTS: !1R. 3?EAKER: :m. WAfU\E.H: T.;e hen. =he Minister of Healt.'l. Yes, Mr. Speaker. Oh, oh~ Hear, hear~ Do you want to tell us what? The :'1on. t..'le member for Torngat !1ount:.ains. Mr. Speaker, :ey question will be to :he :1inistar of Healt.'"l..

Could he spell out. . ..,.hat. he has Cone to prevent a. strike. SOME HON. XEMBE::tS: ;J.R. HOCSE: :.!R. ?OBER!'S: :1R. HCCSE; Oh, 6h! I did not get t.'1.e question. Spell out wnat you have dcne. Mr. Speaker, Co net want to treat 0:."1.!.3 lightly, but 'Nha:::. I did say in response to t..'le member for t..'1e St:.:li t o:: Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) was t.'lat. we have put. inca place t."le :!Ormal con­ t.ingincies t."lat. we ~an put into place :or gearing Ccwn the hospitals in ':.he event t."la.t ;~APE calls a s::.ri:.te, and 2!:.328

Jove.t.lber 19, 1979 Tape No. 1168 :iM - 1 :-m. socs::: oi course, not being t:h0 negotiating body. we .3.re in constant consultation with Tz:-easu.::y Board and '"'e are not going to stand up in tl1e :-louse of rlssembly and state ou.:: negot.l.aung stance. :·tR. ROBERTS: ~R. SPEAKER (Sitr~s): :1R. WARP..E!I: You have done nothing. The hen. membe::; for Torngat ;·lountains. Mr.

Speaker, in the ~sence of the :1inister of Rural, .!.gricultural and Nor~hern Development have a question =or ::he ?remier ~ In light of a ::ecent press release by ::..i.e :ninister saying ::hat he ',;as ?basing out t..'lirty-one .::egior:al pastures throughout the !sLir.d, and also taking into consideration that same ::of those ccttununity ;;as't.u:::-es do not yield the best :?Ossible :ee.d; :or -~~ample t.!"le Gorrunun.! ty pasture on the 3onavista ?eninsula 'dhere t.her6 are over :oo -::.J.t:t:le pr:act~cally star-.ring, •..tould the ?r<:!mier tell this i:iouse 1. ~ i1is department or :.he government intends to improve :hose camr:mn.:. ty pas-:::.ures =::efore chey are passed over to t:he pri·.rate sector~:' The hon. the Premier. ?Pl"\f!ER PECKFDRD: )tr.

Speaker, I am aware in general, of the :;:uestion ar.d ':he subst.::mce of :::-.e question ::."lut the han. ::-.err.ber know ::hat: r:he Ylinister of S.cral, ,;gricult.ural and :'iart:h8rn OeveL::t:menr: is '4orking en .lt with t!:-.e "la.riaus pastures and r >tauld imagine ::;-,ac each pa:::t:ic'J.lar ;;;ast'.lre 'Nlll be 'treated ::.n a different. way because t.n:e:: are nor: all c.IP ':a c:he same scaniard, :'.or Co they all have r:he same problems. '!here is one that ':he hen. r::errber refers ::"

:-lOVemb-e= 19, l9i9 Tape No. 1163 NH - 2 ?FE·U2R ?£CKFCE.D: a 3hared jurisdiction rather t~an just by governtne~t. There have been a lot of co:nrlaints !:::.y individual far.ners in various areas because they say that a lot of the agricultural representar.ives thl.nk t!l.ey know it .;~.ll - somebody frcr.1 Grand FJ.lls or somebody from St. John's goes out and tries t8 tell the :'armer h::;w to run his pasture <J.nd so it is an attempt !:Jy government to r:.ry to share the ju.risdic-::ion and some of the cos-r. with the local ag:=icultural societies.

But \ole reccqnize chat each particular pasture has it:s own ?articular problems and therefore we ~ust ~eep ~~at in r.1ind in c.::-yinq t.o finalize a capital budget for next year tha::: might reflect some additional in",provement.s to some of the pastures. ~R. 5FEAt£R (Si~ms): A supplementary. T:te han. nember fer Tor~gat ~o~tains. :-1R. HAR.R.EN: :-tr.

Speaker, in ?iew of a release in a dail? ;;aper over the weekend that. ;;:ro!?osals have been asked ::::om che pr.:.•tate sec-.::or, ·,.;auld the ?remier :::ell us :.:: the::e will be any tende:::ing or will it be just. proposalz; 2.:.-om indi•J::.duals? !1-.s those commun:.t:y r;:ast'-lres would be considered government :;rcr.erty , will it. be :ust by ?rcposais from any individual ~erscn or will it be ~y tender? ZS30

:'ape •Jo. 1159 AH-1 :~~.SPEAKE?.: (Si~.

s) T!H~: ~on. the ?ren:icr. :!r. Speaker, I gu~ss ·~:orCs are i:r:FOr':.:t..'1t: :.ere a."'lc'. tl"'.e :act t..".at proposals are !::eing calleC is 1 in essence, tel".deri;.g :.n ':.ite sense that we are locking for peor:le q::eration of r..:.ese :s:;astt:.res. So I Cc :-tot Ynow :.: one wants to split Herds bet:t-1een _;:roposals and tenders but it is an !'.onest 3.t::ter::pt '::;y goverr~'l'lent to tr:::• to :inC out jtmt :-~ow rt'.any indiviCuals or grcups around are interested in running pastures in t~c partic~lar areas. \{!'..

S?EA..v:E:K: A final supplen:entary, ~e hen. :rer.J:er for t!1P. <T"orngat ~1ountains. :!r.Speaker, my final supplementa:y ·,.·ill 1-:e i:: two ::;arts. :men those cc!!'.nmnity r:ast:Jres are trans!c~~eC to t.':e private sector 1 : am just Hcnderinq if the Pre:nier coulC c.ell <:s if the cost to the cattle owners wculC 1-::e sul::stantially :-::orB '::.:-:an it is at the pr~scnt tin-e anC if sc - t.:-:e seccnC part o: t.l:e <:::uesti.cn prchatl:r is a Ci;'fe~ent question ~: tcge-:her but i5 it .:.s going ::o ~c trar.sfer:-eC to the pri•Jat~ sector, Cces t!:e Premier :ore.<:;ee an in:lu:-: cf jcbs crP.ateC ;:;y t~is :r.cve or is -::::ere going :c te a .:cducl:ion i:. jots? 'fP • .SPEl\KFR: The ~en. the ?rer.ier. ; i.·J;:: ::o :::.l":e two questi:::Jns to two :i:tal questions. 0r:e. it ',:ill Cepe.r;C upor. t.~e prq::csals <::..':at

!are !lo. 11"i9 a let on the prorosals be-::mse goverrr.ent: Cces :tot i.n~enC nor does :.he Cepart~,ent: in':end to ]-.:st ;;ass t:..'lem ever and allc-,.; a qi•Jen grau9 or a given ir.cli•Jidual ~o Co ·,:hat !;e likes wit.'"t the pastures. !hey arc there to t::y and enhance ':::: u.ny kinC of proposal.- That is the kind of t..,>,ing that vte wa."lt tc s~c Ccne over ~~e next few years. '~R. E?f:A-K:!"R: (Sirrr.

s) for ,.,.or::tgat :.!ountai:-.s. I think the Premier ~isinterFreteC ::-;: fir:;t question. It ·.;as, if it is transfer::-eC over to the private sector coulC. 1-:e assure the R"ouse t!;at the cost tc t::e cattl "! ·'"''-'!"~!' ·.me is ;oing to :9ut !<is cattle in t":.cse ;::asturen ·.-:culC not l:-c t:co scr,-stantially :r.cre than t..l-te cat<::le owner is ?rese:-:~ly ;ay::.ns '"'hile '!'~e !-:en. ?re!"ier. =~cau!:le .r,astur::!s ctre '.lSed for more t..h.an cattle. T~ere are sheer: arC tl:e:re ot:re ;oats and ct!-\e::- ani:;-als em p.1.stu:::es.

There is ::ct :us1: cat~le. :: •,.;ill Ce!_}end, ! sup-r;cse, in cecause :!'.ere are a 1.ot of far::e:::s ccntri!::uting a s:-all ar-cur:t. ;..C!cause i ' :Cas its c-.rn p:rcC1.eiC.s as l saL' 2a:rlic::-. ' ' ~ e~ ::l.!::-::''t' :-2.'15 ~ ~ _., 'e )<inCs of :;:rcposals t:nat ccr~ l.n ag;.LL:'l. !:J.

wi':~ t~e pastures. Sc we •dill l::e "Iery selective anC we will r;ot necessar!.ly ~se :.1-'.e :;ar.:e c::i teria on c:1e Fast.ur·~ c:s ~re use en anot~er ':-:eca•.:.se you cannot 2o t.'lat in ~his ?rovir:ce. In SC!te areas. as l :;ay, t:-:ere :nay l::e t.~i:::ty or forty farmers using it '~<"l. t.:1 a let of animals and in .;mot::e:: a.=~a the::e :nig:C.t l:e only eight cr t:er •• I )me·..: of places .,.here there are onlY eight or ten farmers ...,z.-,c are really invohred in t.b.erefore, i<:. ·e:culr! not be :air to :;::ut the same coet on eight or ten as it would an ~1-tirty or forty.

So •.;e arc going t:o !',ave to ~e careful anC de it. on a selective Casis given t!:e •.;iability, giver:. t:.:~e use cf ':he pastu.:-e ty the various fa.::T.".er~ involved. ,; supplerrentary. The !-:Of'. ::-crrl:cr :cr GranC Sank. To t:!-:te ?::-er::ier , '!;. 5reaker. : ~cticcc' in :}'.e press relcase,,.ti:en it ca!l".e cc~ 1 t!:tat ::;er;'! is t;;oing t~ :\q::ic'Jl t'..lre. 29~3

d..J.s an; cor:sicicr<l:.ion teen given ::.o :::roar..luning :.his ;;c:~~'Tli':.t.ec; so ti1at. t:...'le far::Jers, groups of far~ers anJ so on 'Nil:!. be re;;res:ent:ed in ::.'lis :cgar.::i? :!R. S?!:.rl::.ER: (:!r, Si."l .. tt . .

s) The han. the ?re:::.i<::r. an not sure ·,.r:1et..".er ccnsidera>;:;.i:::m :1ao> been ;ive.n but I. will take the ;.>Jenl:cr's question under adviser::ent !..cor.. at. Right ncv.t, I Has :J.Ct J.'vnlre of tl.1e. e:<:lct: campcsi.t:ion ;,;£ :::i1.e ca::=:it.:.ee t.;lat was ;ol.ng :o :::-eview :::..hese proposals bu't now, ;,a..,.ins t..:en :::aCe aware of it '::.y the bon. ::;ember 1 .::: ·.,dll take it . .meier Tl•e :-.on. =.err.Le.r fc.r ?ego, :.t.-::.. E. 7GLK: .:: s~pposc t.'1e .?rcr.ti<J:::-, chrow;n h.ls l.n pl.::v:e ::: C.J

:lover~er 19, 1979 :-!9.,_~5?£.'\.:<ER: (:tr. Si::-c:sj ?!{E.t:IER ?EC::POR:l: $;) - 2 Cn number one q'..lcs tion, :-tr. Speaker 1 t.nere ~ave been ~ee~ings be~~een ~~e Jepartmenc of Sduc~cion and Treasury .Soard ano. Finance ,..it.a w'1e Dencwinaci::Hi.ul E:ciucat.ion C:::t:'.::t.J..ttee;; on ::;.lc '.;t.ole quest:..on of scnool financi:~g beciluscl c::: t.:."1e :-.i-:;h interest :-iltes, Cecause cf ~1e fact t::.at tr:e Derlcwinational Education Cor:'.mittees :1ave ~sed up ':.'I.e ::toney t.ha':. !"las been allc..ttcc t.::l ":..'1e::;. Cy gover:-:..::1ent t..te cue off date.

The ;cve:::.."::Cnt 2rovides, I =crge:: '..;hat it L.> r.ow,$15 :nillion,Sl6 million_,;,;l7 r::L!.lion a :!'::!ar t:et;...rce:1 :.ow anJ. 19:36. T!i.e :Jencr.tin~t.:.or.al ::.:duca::ion C:)n:.:nit:.t.e-es :tav•~ J.Se.d up all of t:!i.at ::-.or.ey each year !:'igr.t up co l9cl6. So t21""V 1.-re .::<!ally at. 1986 am.i •.;e are at :.S.79 :::.a.K.c sure ;.;e can ;;over ou:: losses.

In any c.lse, ::.u.lt ,;,s ·..,::er.: · .. ·e ),re and tl·,ere ·.lre still a lot. cf school facilities around t:.!-,e ?rovince ;frcde:i.ck::cr,, :::ar:der i::ily ::Oe ing ::Jne; :.ic ::lc 3ay ::>.:.a:-:a.s, o::le ?::ovi.nce -in :·1ain Brook, Hare Bay,t..!'"lc::t.!.;; ;;.,at:.e: ;,;-,c so on :: .:.nanc.:.:~s

:lovc:.;b2r 19, l979 Tape :;o. 11 iO ::;;:; - A. ;;;upplem..:ntary, c-lr. Speakar. A supplementary, ~J-.e !:on. :::e:nber for ?c.-go. :·trt. B. TULK: :-<.r.

Speaker, ! az:t '."ell aware of the f:1ct :::1at it l.S the IAC or the JEC and scl-.ocl beards whlcn so.y where funds ·.::.11 go in the Provi:1ce ,:aut as c:te Pre.-nier 'Nell knows, :.c is the gover:--.'":'.t:r.t: wr.o provides !unds for schools in t:.,e Province so I ask rti."7\ .l.f he ·..ould use the pc•·•er of i1is position tc. see t!"\a::. t.he red tape and .w;Ueaucracy and ::.he run.-around that the people i:t F::ederickt:on have been gect:ing is by-passed and ::..1.at a new school is put ir: E'rederick~on so that ':.he kids there c:m !":.ave a decent place in ·,..rnicl". to go. aea:r, hear.

T::e :ton. t:::c ?rc!!l..ler. :1.r. Sp.:aker, i.: ! './as -:o accede to tJ-,e nor.:tal ·.=ducacional system in :::Us Prov::.r:ce. Hear, hear. f:rcn F-:;,go distri::"::: as an educator, as ne ::,3, a.r;u. .lS a .:or:ner ed.Uc:ition, as

~Iover:'lber 19, 1979 Tape No. 1171 DW - l PRE~!ER ?ECKFO~D: who, in consultation '4ith the school board on the local level decide on the location of school facili~ies. To interfere with that,I am sure it is not Liberal policy and if it is ! am sure that whoever the senior man on the other side of the House is '4ill get up ~nd contradict the member for Fogo {Mr. Tulk)liecause that would be blatant political interference and would fly in the !:ace of all that we know about the denorr.inaticnal educa­ tional system in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. 3. TULK: :Ht. SPEAKER: Hear, hear!

A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. We have time for one quick final supplementary, the hen. member for Fogo. ~R. B. TULK: ! did not suggest that the Premier tell the DEC or the board where to build a 'school, I just sug­ gesteC to him that he see that the funds are made available so :hat those people can carry out their priorities and will he see that :hat is done? SCM~ HON. MEMBERS: :-!R. SPEAKER: ~EM!ER ?ECKFORD: Hear, hear! The hen. the Premier. ~r. Speaker, ! can assur~ the han. member for Fogo that he has re-phrased his question to be some- wha~ different from what it ',.;as previously.

And the fact of the :na'Ct.er is as ! !lave indica~ed to the han. rr:err.ber in t.."le .:-:...'1swer t:o t::1"= first part of his first question 1 t.'l.at we arc now negotiating with the DEC's and in due =curse the ~inister of Educa'C!on (~s.

Verge) and responsible ~inisters en t!lis side will be indicating goverrnr.ent' s cng-cing policy as it relates to school financing, capital-wise 1 will be. 3ut. as ! indicated to the hon. member. that does ensure and th1s is t~e whole reason for the hon. member's question in t~e beqin­ ning - ~he hen. member for Fogo is not ~oncerned about school cons~ruc~ion in Ci~tle Bay Islands, ~e is not conce~ned about school construction in Main Srock, he is con:erned about school construction in Frederick~on and ~hethe= that actually =ames

November 19, 1979 Tape No. 1171 ow - 2 PRE~!ER PECKFORD: about might not necessarily depend upon additional financinq to the DEC's by government. !1R. SPE.a.!<ZP.: (SHtM.

S) Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired. PRESENTING REPORTS SY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: OR. J. COLLINS: The hen. the !~inist:er of Finance. Mr. Speaker, I beg leave that pursuant to

Section 28 of the Financial Administ=ation Act, 1973 1 I table special warrants. There are four special warrants, !ive copies of each and these involve Justice, Mines and Energy and Fisheries. the Departments of :-IR. E. ROBERTS: Orders of the Day - :-fR.SPEAKER: of Selle Isle • .'1R. E. ROEERTS: 000 Mr. Speaker, before we go to The hen. member for the Strait - the Government House Leader will call the government's business. ! thought the House might be interested to know that the fifty-first member of the House, the member for St. ~ary's - T~e Capes (Mr.

Hancock) will be sworn in, ! believe, by His Honour, t!'le Lieutenant­ ~overnor in the morni:1g and accordingly, subjec-t: to Your i:ionour's approbation, will be taking his seat in the Chamber ~morrow afternoon. :c!R • .SPEAKER: ! than% the hon. member for that information. I believe, it was passed on to members of the Hous~ a few days ago when the hen. member for ~he Strait of Belle Isle was not here. !"!R. E. ROSER':'S: It was only set today, Your Ronou=. - a few davs ago. We cut some red tape. 0h, ah;

~lovember 19, l9i9 Tape No. 1171 DW - 3 ORDERS OF THE DAY !1-R. W. MP.SHA.L.L: Order 32. Bill No, 58. MR. SPEAKER: {Simms) Order 32, Bill No. 58, Continuing dehat.e en second reading of a bill, "An Act. To Amend, Revise And Consolidate The Law Relating To The Establishment And ACrninistrat.ion Of Municipal Government !n The Province". (Bill No. 56) The hen. member for Carbonear. S.JME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear: XR. R. MOORES: :-tr.

Speaker, r would like to take up where I left off on Friday, I think I have about ten minutes re- ~aining, and to recapitulate, ~1e essential point of my argument on Friday was that I personally and I would thini< that at. some time in the fut.ure, perhaps, my colleagues on this side of the House are not particularly supportive of this Sill for two reasons, t:,o~o very im- portant reasons; !irstly, ~•at. ~~e government ~~rough camouflage, through ~ans o~~er ~~an straightforward means, are try~ng to negotiate ~~e forced impcsicion of proper~y :.ax on all municipalities '"'i ~!;.in ":."lis Province ~~at have a water and sewerage sys~em :ncre =.'"lan 50 per cent complete. ! might ask ~~e minister, when he gets up ~o reply :o ':..'lese statements t...'lat are being :nade i.n <:..'le neuse, if t..his proper-:y tax applies :.o municipalities 'Nhere a wat:er and sewerage line is noc the conventional type, ~'"lat is to uay, water and sewerage supplied by artesian well and by septic tanks. !here are a n~~ber of communities in my district ~here chat would apply, And ~'"le second reason, Mr.

Speaker, is because t...~is is a del~~erate bushwhacking of t...'l.e regional government concept in ~'lis Province, ~'"le miru.st:er and ~he governmen~ are t.:::ying to Co under c.'le table what last yea:::., at. least, ~\.;.e previcus :ninister of :-tunicipal Af!:airs had ~939 '

~-ioverr.ber 19, 1979, Tape 1172, Page 1 -- apb :'!R. ?.. Y.00?£5: t:.'le forthrightness to do directly in ~~is House, and ~~at is to introduce reqional gove~ment in this Province. Now t:.'lere are a variety of reasons why we are opposed to regional government or, at least the type of regional government proposed and to be submitted by this government. One of the ·~ery clear reasons 'lfhy we are opposed to it is t:.~at it places far, far too much pcwer in the hands of one person or the Cabinet.

The Cabinet virtually has com~lete =ontrol over who will sit on that council, the disposition of its assets and ~"ose of the communities involved in it and a host of other technical rr~tters which could verJ well lead tc the imposition of regional government that would not ~e to the benefit of t.l-te people that it is intended to serJe. ?or that reason, ~.

Speaker, and I could ~ail en here for quite some time about the minister's =laim that ~~is is the mast important ~dificaticn of municipal government and its regulations in t.~is Province' 3 history, I could say c:...,_at that is a pile of nonsense and t~ash and rubbish. ~ilis bill is doing no~;ing ather ~,an consolidating regulations which have been,e:ither in practice or in t.'1ecr!,recogni::ed and utili::ed by :nunicipal :;overnments in ~'1is Province for the las1: twenty years. -,.;auld likt! to see him, <Nhen he gets up to close t::he debate, give me one modification in ~e municipal ~egulations.

I will settle fa~ one,cnly, new regulation, new modification differen~ than the re~lation~ eit.her in t.'"'ieOrf or in practice, -::hat have been used for the last t·.-.~er:.ty years. This is :lOt, as the mi.nis~er claims it:. is ,:r:.erely an effort. A ;cod Western ::tcvie 'Nard is to 'drj-gulch'; t.hat is to say, to go behind ~nd hit from the rear a friE:nd or an associate '"'ho has been supporti•Je of t:.!'le principle, the essenual t_::rincit:Jle of this bill. And ::..'lat is E::xactly what he is 1oing. :he :;:unicipalities i:wolved lrH:! those that W"ill ~e Z94D

~ove~~er 19, 1979, Tape 1172, ?age 2 -- apb :.r.R. R. !o.!OOFl:S : regional gove~nrnen~ concept. They are led to believe that it is ~~e great step forward in municipal regulations that ~~e ~~nister has been promulgating in ~~e press and in this House for the last week. It is not that, ;.tr.

Speaker, it is nothing even :;,ear l:..l).at, except camouflage and deceit and cowa~dice on ~~e part of this government to br~ng ~nto 1:..'1L:> House con£::-cnting '.15 and t.'-le people of this Province for~rightly, head on with ~r,e issues as ~~ey are and as L,ey should be and as some ministers, I am sure, on ~~at side of the House at least tried to do last year. :.-!r.

Speaker, I am not in support of t!1is bill because of its deviousness, because of its sur::--eptition at1d I do not believe th.at my colleagues on t.:U.s side of t.'J.e 3ouse will suppor"t: it in i<::s present form nor will we even contemplate supporting it in its present farm. Thank you. SCME HON. :'!EMBERS: Hear, hear~ The hen. the :r.er.ber far Trinity- Eay de 'Jerde. :.ut. E' .B. ?.CdE: t1r.

Speaker, I J.m ;;.bsolutely as~oundeci and aznazed over the £act: that a minister en one day can ge~ up i:1 this H>:~use of Asse:nb1y 3,nd talk about this great re!'orm !::ill that we are debating now only to find t.~at it is qui:e obvious ~~e members oppas.J..'!.:e have been silenced in t:lis debate.

i1cverr.ber 19, 1979 Tape 1173 ?;( - 1 :-tr. F • Rowe : This is the second ~ime, Sir, that the gcve~n~ent ~as presented a bill beiore th~s House during this par~ of the session, ·.men chey talked about the ;;reat:ness of the legislation they were bringing forward. And this bill, Sir, is the biggest bill physically, and the Ciggest bill, probably, as far as the effects that it will have on the people of this Province, ~hat will ever be brought before this House. 'let 1 'Ne have the situation, Sir, where hon. members opposite are obviously ~ot ;cing to debate the bill back and forth, such an important. bill.

They ~ave ~bviously been silenced. They tried it there and Friday, the ~inister got up to speak, Sir, after one of cur speakers had spoken, and <::he same thing happened again today. 5o it is obvious, Sir, tr~t the govern1nent is just going to let this bill run itself out. with respe::::: to debate. And ! think there are many important. thi::.gs that have t.o be debat.;d in this ?articular bill.

Sir, to start o£f I might commend xy colleagues or, th.:.s side for pointing out ::he 'Neaknesses c;;f this particular b~ll, "To Revise Al'l.d C~nsolidate The Law Relat.:.ng To The Establish.-nenc And Ad.:r.ins.:.rat:.ion Of ;,1unici~al ]overm:r.er.t. In The Province", That might sour:d ;;ccd on c .. be sur:::ace, Sir 1 but as my callea<:Ues have pointed out this bill is a :::amcu:::::.aged method, a devious :ncthod, of sneaking in the ::;ror:;er":...J' t;;<X and regional gover~~ent.

And han. members or:posl.te do not ':;o.ave the ability nor the heart to get up and debate ic and defend their own p1.ece o: legislation. Now, Sir, ! have looked at t:h.ls properc:y -:..ax :::usiness. No tax, Si:r, is desirablt:, no -:ax is desirabl2 so :.c i<,i:u::! of -ca~< that you ::an i:nr:lement ::;; derive tl1e greates:: t:e::ef:.t fer the municipalities thrC\.lShour: this ?rovince. Th.a t is the JOb o£ 2942

~-<ove.::±er 19, l979 Tape 1173 PK - of St. John's, the larges~ communi~y in this P~ov~ncc a :nethod. of taxa~ion based on rental value ',,·hich aCmittedl';·,andit has been admitted by eve~ybady in chis House who has spoken,is a poor method of taxation. ?robably property tax is an even be~ter method than the rental value of property. aut, Sir, one thing that ! have to ask the minist.er 1 and hope he refers to it when he speaks 1:.0 the bill in concluding che debate, ~f he can give the House, Sir, some reasonable idea of exactly how much it. is going to cost to assess the real proper~y val~c in ~his Province?

I:: is going -::.o be a !l'.onurnental task, :.tr.

Speaker • ! '~uld suggest ~hat it lS going to be a very ex?ensive situation or method or function 1 trying to assess the real value of property w:1ether it is r,:riva~e prope!''::..y, Ousiness proper<:.:_:, agricultural ?rOJ.::e.rty, or w!-.ac have you, throughout this ?::evince. !t :Ls going to be a very ext:ensl.ve pror:;osicicn to sit down and have a field of 'Norkers assess the real property value in this ?rcvince. '!'hen again, Sir, one can ask ..._-hat ::.s the ::ri-:eria that is ~oing to be used ior the assessmen1: oi real ;:ror;erty values in :::his ?rcv~nce? .~.nci •,.rill it !::e, in fac'::.., =:ai=, a fair method of assessing? .Sir, :ne ather <::hing that.

I fi.nd distJ.seful about c:he ;;:ropert."i t.ax :.s ':he fac-:. <:.bat. it is noc neces,-;arilJ based on a ;:erson' s

:'iovember 19, 1979 Tape 1174 EC - l XR. E'". ?.OWE: I suppose in mas~ instances, the real value of proper1:y is related in some -.;ay to a person's ability to pay, but not necessarily. I would suggest, Sir, that if a son or a daughter or a family situation were fortunate enough to inherit a good old home and a piece of ?rcpe=ty, that does not necessarily mean, 5ir, that the person, the individual, is in a position to pay a property ::ax. He might not have purchased it, it might. have come just as a gift, handed down through the family, and that person may, in !act, be unemployed or a very low .,..age earner.

The point: that I am making, !1r. Speaker, is simply ~~is, that even if a propertY tax ~ethod is used which may, in fact, be muc~ better than the system that is used in St. John's, is it, in fact, fair in ::.erms of, is i::. related to a person's ability to pay? And I just pointed out one example of where it could be totally unrelated to a person's ability to pay.

We could have ~~e exac~ opposite situa'l:ion, Sir, of people wor~ a fair amount as far as net or gross income is concerned, owning modest proper~y or having property in o~~er names, company names or ot.~er persons' names, where the person has the ability to pay b1.1t is :eally paying a reasonably low municipal tax through the property tax because t.~e prope:-:.y :..ry,at he claims to own or possess is reasonably modest. iicw, I have not seen anyt.''linq in t."l.e act to cover these t"NO extreme examples.

Obviously, in t.ry,e majority of cases - I would hope in ':.~e :najority of cases - ':.'1e abili~y to pay .me the real proper~y value of an individual ;.;ould 'oe ccrr.patible, but not necessarily so. The:e is ano:.h.er ·..reak.ness, Sir. We have heard recently - my friend from Baie Verte - Wb.ite Bay (;tr.Ridecut:), i:f. he does not. mnd -:::{ using a cornmunit'/ in his ?ar-:.icular d.istric':. as an exa.r0-l2 - 2944

:ioverr.ber l9 1 1979 Tape 1174 E:C - 2 :1R. 2 . ?DWE: is - It: depends on ,,..hic.'l side you believe, Out: J.:: .!.S 75 ?e::: ::ent:. or 80 per ::em:. :,tR. ?'. ROWE: Sir, 75 per cent: or 80 per cent: of ~at community is ~~employad. Now,nobody, Sir, can convince me that: the people in that: communi cy I i£ t."l.ey are assessed a ::runicipal tax - ':.he :noCe of tax beiJ'lg -=..'le property cax, nobody can convince me t..'lac ':.."lese people '"'ill be i.n a position t.o pay.

And everfbody knows, Sir, that there are regions of this Province - not just cornmuniti~s, but regions of ~is Province, almost complete electoral districts, some regions and electoral districts or combinations of electoral districts, where t.'1ere is massive unemployment. :.tiL R!:::lECUT: MR. F. ROWE: :'!?.. K!i.JEOC'T: .·lR. F. ?..CWE: ?crt au Port.

The Port au Port Peninsula situation - Bay d' Espoir. - and ~~e Bay d'Espair situation, where, Sir, tile tax base is just: not t.'lere, and t."\erefore, these people are ac a disadvantage because of t..~e fact t.."\at ~'ley happen to be ~orn in or live in or sought employment: in - and then t.~e bottom fell out and -:.'ley will never be in a position to get ':.."I.e badly needed municipal services that are required and t."ley righc:fully desenre.

I guess ! am going back, Sir, to the old cliche, t.'lere must be some ~thad of getting rid of regional disparity as it exists wl.thin our P=ovl.r.ce of Newfoundland and ~abrader. And : am saying t.'lat i:f the proper~/ tax is sneaf.ed in, put ir'. t.~rough t..'"tis huge bill, t.'lat t!1ere •..;ill b~ areas cf this ?rovince t.'lat. will suf=:er adve=sely and, ir.deed, t....'tere ,,..::.11 be areas a:: -:.nis ?rovince .,..hic."l ,...::..11 benefi":. greatly.

Eecause they have an excellent t.ax base, '".he rate of employment could be high 1 t..'1e earnings could be very nigh, -=..'te proper"'C.y ·.ralues could be very high, and obviously, it: is like ~~e sno~ball ~ffect, ~'te rich commur.it:ies have a st:=cnser tax bas~ ~•d :...~e~efore, they are able to ?U!'llfl r.cre ooney ~945

tiovember 1?, 1979 Tape No. :!.175 NH - 1 :1R. ?.

RC-h'E: into the municipali~y or t.'te regional government, whatever, ~,d therefore ~hey could qet the services that some other community across the tracks or across the road or up the Coast or down the Coast =annoc gee. =o,therefore, Sir, : am strongly against the imposition o£ the property tax for these particular reasons. ~-lc'<l, 5ir, it is no good to be against sc~ething unless you =an recommend scmething as an alter~ative or ask the minister or the administration whether, in fact, they have considered alternate methods of taxation in order to ?rovide all the municipal~ties of ~~is ?=evince, and all t:he r8gior.::l1 .. gove.r;;.mencs of ":-.'1is ?rovince with t:he services that they deser,re, equally, str:light: across the Board.

And I would like to ask che minister, Sir, ! realize i:: was rejected,: believe in the ;1helan Corn.:nission REport, ':Jut I would like to ask the minister what di.scussion and how ;;erious '-'as ::he busi:1ess or t.he suggestion of a municipal income ::ax taken into ::onsideration: No'-N .. ac;ain, I am recommenaH'.g anor..her tax, or asking ::he degree to ·,.,rhich the government considered anot!"ler mode of taxatiQn, Sut, Sir, I ask ~t in a:l seriousness and sincerity because I beL .. eve ver:y :.n:rongly chat - well, let us re::race histor·f for ant: :nor.:ent. ?.J..rst 'Ne haC the federal i:lcome ca:-:, and ::hen we had ot great reform :::l1roughout:. ::he :1ation ",;hereby •,;e had pr:o•n.nc:..al bccme serious co:Jnsider;lt:J..on to ':l:.e ;_:;ossibility o: '::te 1..:nplemtont.at.ion o:: forms - Speaki.:>g for :nyself.

Rigi-'.t.. :lobody likes

~ovember 19, 19i9 Tape :-to. lliS $1 - 2 ~!? .. ?. ROWE: :.he fa.i::est tax that was ever devised. ~~y? 3ecause it is simply based en a person's ability or a corporation's abili::y or a busi:l.ess' ability to pay. And besides thac, Sir, there ·..;auld ~e ~ reduccion ir. ter~s of implementation. If we implement the property tax_ •..;hat '..te are saying is •,;c ':~ave <:.o !-!::we assescmenr:s of real ;.roperti.es throughout this Province •..;here the ::n:operty tax is going ::a ~e i:nplemen::ed.

I am suggesting t.hat ::he me;:hanism already is ::here,really,for the implementation of a municipal income tax. :-lcH :.here ;:auld be a ncmber of r::ethods. It could be done through a :nunlc~pality, or i~ could be done through the provincial government for purposes of disbursement. to the munL.::ipalities. But I w-ould ::-eca:r.mend,......

I hop~ ::he minister is listening ::here, because I am not speaking in any partisan fashion 'nhatscever, : am raising the question and askitlg ::he question 1 wha-c. consideration was given to some mode of ~lurnbe:: one, ~ecause it is a :'airer tax, 8ocauso: it is Oa.sed on individual's and corporation's Clbilit.y :_::J 9ay.

Secondly, it. ·nould be less costly to implement because you 'Nill ;;ot :1eed ~he assessments required '.lnder the proper::y tax, :.nd i.t ·..:auld l:e: less e:q:ensi·Je :Oecause the mechanism already exists Ear income tax deCuc::ions .:;.t ::h~ third level :::Jf local or :;-egional z-over::.ment.. :<tcre i;npcr~ant.ly, Si:=-, it ·,..-auld give :.:he government, .:;.nC: this is '<·mere ·<Je 'na·1e ':.o :.avo it done in t.!'le Legislature, and voted upon in :!'le Legislat.Clre and :1ot :iecided ~pan in C.J.bine<: or !::Jy a minister~. -:his ·,;o~;ld enable :.h.:..s government :;r .:1ny other gover:u~ent. co collect 1- !c:Jcal qover;;:nent ::ax or mur.icipal ::ax through a mun1.c.:..pal income :.ax :ha':. t!i.ey ::::ould se':: up ':he :;,echanism £or chemsel•Jes and then t~ey c:ould :he :L:!.sbur5ement :::J: ':l".ese :::1nds .:..s ::once:::-::ed..

~;cvembe:r 19, 1.979 'rape i-io. 1175 NH - 3 I just point ou~ those as a few of the ~owns and co~uunities in ~his Province t~at have a good heal~~? ~ax ~ase- ~e would know ~at in some small way these town~ and the citizens of ~hese co~uunities were, in fact, helping out the ~948

~ovember 19, 1979, Tape 1176, Page l apb .:t.'R..

F.B.?DHE: less fortunate ccw.munities throughout the Province and,therefcre, we Co not have cur ~dCic~cons, and we do not have our Port au Port Peninsulas, and we do not have our Bay d'Espoir situations where the people will never receive reasonable and adequate municipal services because they ·,.;ill never get a sta::'t., because they have r.o tax base. ~ow, some people can argue let the poor people suffer, let the poor communities suffer .md let t...~€ :;i.ch people and let. t.'le rich communities go full steam ahead, Sir, ~,at is not what gover~~ents are all about.

We have a federal government to keep the nation toge't.her and to disperse wealth .i.n a rational and equit.able fashion, we have provincial ;overnments, ?resumably to do ~~e same thing at L~e provincial level 1 so, Sir, I '"'ould submit: t.hat strong consideration should have been given ':.0 th.e possibility of an alternative t:'let...i.od of taxation ct.'1e::- than the property tax and that would be, of course, ~i.e municipal tax.

You would have a centralized system and you could have more equitable distribution of the ~evenue ~hat is =ollected by t...~e gave~ment ~o ~~e various areas of t.'te Provi:J.ce Qecause, Sir, I have served only two districts in mY political lifeti:ne, but I have travelled vir-::ually every single ;iist::ict. in t.i.is Province and ! can see areas where cormnuni. ties will leap ahead wit:h ':..'i.e implementation of t.'te prope!."ty ta:< .1nd ::: can see o~~er =ommuni~ies ~~at will be just buried and le£-:: stagnant, .!.nac-::ive and ·,.;ill :1ever get a start ·..;i::h respect to t...'-te provision of >::::-:.e ::n.mi::.ipal :3e::-•.rices, t:.o infinity.

I t::ink it: is incurrbent '.J.pcn ~.he government, I thi.n.k t.Jtc government, .Sir, are, in fact, abdicati~g ~~eir provincial responsibility just as L'-te federal government, in ~any instances, is abdicating .i.ts federal ::-espcnsibility by handing c;;;er a lot of che decision ::1rlki:1g and responsibilities to t:.;'-tir:k this :.s an .lnalcgous situation ·..,there •,.;e have >:::!:8 provinci.ll governnent hanc.i;-;.g over ::::e responsibility and :he decision :::af;;ing '::0 ~'l.e local level. Sn!"orr.unace.l'f, Sir, it: is ::>Ot

:-<ovember 19, 1979, Tape 1176, Page J: -- apb :·!.R. F.B.?..CME: of the collection of revenue to keep these municipalities going. Now I hope the minister is taking ~~s in the sense that I have tried to express it, and ~at is what I consider to be a basic flaw in this bill, an unfair ::lOde of taxation.

The minister may well have the answers, I do not know, but I hope he does do the House t.'le =curtesy of answering why t.~e munici?al mode of taxation,or income ~ode of taxation, based on income, was not implemented; if ne would do the House t.~e courtesy of answering t.~at basic and f~ndamental question which I would have considered to be a great refo~ on t.~e part of this a~~nistration. Now, Sir, during the course of ~"le debate I believe the :nember far Bonavista :-.:cr-::h (Mr.

Stirling) challenged ~~e minister with respect co :he degree of consultation he had had wi-.:h th.e ~ew£oundland and Labrador Federation of :1unicipali ties prior to bringing ::.'lis bill before the House. and I was 2.ed to believe that ::he :ninister 'Has up to his ears in ccnsul':.ation 'Nith che Ne"'foundland and Labrador ?ederation of ~unicipalities before this bill was presented to ::.~e House of Asse:::bly. !:'!deed, I believe the tl'.inister said ~~at there '"as a great deal of consultation '..tith c.he ?ederation.

Hcwever, Si::-, t.'1e preside:J.t of :..~e Board of Directors of the FeCerat:ion :net, r believe, ·Nit.ft t."le :ninister on ::'riday afternoon pas1: and today issued a press release cia ted ~-iove!l'.ber 19, 1979. Thti! second :;aragraph, Sir, of ~hat part:icular press release 'Nh.ich Z a::: willing to t:.abl~ if requi:-ed, quot:e, ''At the outset t:."le president - Z9SO

:.:overnber 19, 1979 Tape 1177 EC - l that is of th.e board of directors of the E'ederacion of Municipalities for Newfoundland and Labrador. "At the outset, the president voiced th.e board's displeasure on having been earlier assured of th.e opportunity to discuss the content of the bill with ~~e minister in time for possible alterations before it was committed for discussion in the House of Assembly - and now to find that ~~e bill was already subject to the House debate before meeting wit.~ him.

The Federation's board of direc~rs had honoured the confidence requested in tilis instance and will continue to do so in future instances, but... did expect reciprocal treatment.'' So, Sir, ~,e president of ~,e board of directors of the Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Municipalities has COIM cut and rejected categorically 1 st:atements made by the minister in t:.~is House of Asse:nbly, when under questioning by rrr1 colleagues on this side he gave this House the full assurance that. there were considerable consultations going on becween ~~e Federation and ~~e government prior to ~~e bringing in of this bill for debate, So, Sir, I think not only does ~'le minister owe the Federation of :1t:nicipalities an apology, but indeed, he OW"es this han.

House and every member representing the people of this Province an apology for having - ! cannot use the word 'misled' 1 Mr. Speake~ - but having given us information whi~~ was contrary to what the facts were during his comments on ~'le particular bill. >tr • .Speaker, t.~ere were six i<:ems listed off by d1e president of .. .he board of directors of the Federation 1 that they considered to be of major contention. I hope that the minister, in closing debate en ~'lis bill, will address hi~£elf to these six items of w~~or contention documented by ~,e Federation of ~unicipalities for t.~is Province.

Sir, ~~e first. one was wi~~ regard to Sect:ion 129 of the bill and it states ~'lat ~~e Federation feels ~~at a munici?ality whi~'l applies the property tax should not be bound to levf ~-.''1e water and sewer tax as a rate on propert:y assessment, but should have :..'le cpt.:.on of applying :."lis tax as a fixed rar;.e, and that the :::ever.ue from sucn a fixed rate tax be incl:..:ded as revenue for purposes of t.'l.t:: 2951

iiovetr..ber 19, 1979 Tape 1177 EC - 2 MR. F. ROWE; revenue grant when affected by the Municipal Grants Act. 1 hope, Sir, that the minister will address hi:::nself to that particular bone of contention wiU!. respect to the Federation of Municipalities. Sir - and r think this is an import:ant one - the second item of conten~on was this: The Federation stated that it should be made clear

U) t.b.e public t.hat a petition is still a recourse available to the public as a means of initiating ministerial action in respect of municipal establishment, amalgamation, annexation. disestablishment, as set forth in Sections 3 and 297 of the bill, even ~~ough this recourse is not now specifically stated.

Sir, in other words, :...'le suggestion here is obviously that the public may not be aware of tile fact - particularly in the more remote areas of our Province - that a petition is still a recourse available to them and that it is not just :...'le Cabinet or the Lieutenant-Governor in Council who can establish, amalg~~te, annex or disestablish municipalities or regional governments. Thirdly, Sir, ~~e Federation agrees :...~at exemption from :...~e poll tax should be based on ~~e basic personal exemption ?ravided under ~,e Income Tax Act as set :orth in

Section 126 (3) of t.:'.e bill, but it is ZS52

Nover.ber 19, 1979 Tape 1178 ?K - 1 ;,tr. F. Rowe: concerned as t:o the financial impact this ~ay have on the local generating ability of those municipalities in whic~ there is a high incident of low income earners. :-Iow,:i: need i'.Ot get i.nco that too ~uch because, in fact, a way of getting over that ?articular item of contention would _in Zact 1 be che L~position of a municipal income cax that I suggested earlier. Fourthly, the federa. cion believes that the unanir:;ous vote required by

Section 413 of remuneration of councillors is neither a practicalnor a =air requirement. This should be changed to a two-thirds majority in keeping with tr~jorative requirements for other similar vati~g instances 3et forth elsewhere ~n ~he bill. In other words, Sir, to 'Hrar; that one up,they do not want one nut in any body vetoing everything that. the. majority wants to go ahead, in ;:his particular c.ase wi:.l1 resp:;!Ct to remuneration.

Fifth -Sir, if I go over a couple of minutes and I s:rcmise :10t ~o go over :hat much longer, but I •,.-auld like to ::;et: 3.11 s:t.x of these i:r:ems of contention read :t.nto the record :.;ith leave of :he House , ar~ then have two more co go with very little elaboration, :•JR. :1ARSHALL: Some of the items are in the press release. >1-!:1 • ~ ?.OW'! : That is right, lc is in the press release there, Cut:. I ·..:auld like to P.nter them into the record of the House :.n the hope that the :::1iniscer ·,.;ill, in fact, address himself to them when he closes the debate on this :;:arc:_:._;::ular bill.

Sir, ~he fi£~h item of contention, She Federation ::.s s::rcngly opposed :.o t:.he references i..r. Sections 266, 308, ar.ci 519 ~8 t!'le con -::inua t.ior. of t.he mJ..nis ter' s aut~.cr it.y to d:t.smiss ccunc 1l.s :md .l.nd:~.vidual councillors ·,.rit:hout: :heir recourse ::a app~al ~u::i1er :c their local electorate or any other authcr:t.y ·4:.thi.'1 a reasonable >'J<.. :; • CA:2.TER: Table it.. :.s. E'. :l.CV.iE : I wish, ~r. Speaker, ::hey ·.vould tabl,::; or ::he Inaud.iblci 2953

:-1ovember 19, 1979 >EZ. F. ?Ctvt: : th€-track 1 befuddled. Tape 1178 ?K - 2 Now, Sir, he has me ccmpletel7 confused, off- I will start. again, Mr. Speaker, The Federation J..s strongly OP.fosed to the references in Sections 266, 508, 519, to the continuation a= the minister's authority to dismiss councils, and i.'1dividuaJ cour.cillors •..,..ithout their recourse to appeal either to their local electorate or any ocher authority within a reasonable time.

It belie'les that ample provision is provided in other sections of the bill, par~icularly Sections 475 to 489 1 praviding for the appc1ntment of an adrnL~istracor to replace a council, whereby this is neither necessary or desirable. Then they go on further to say that the Federation would ~here£ore like to see The Depar~~ent of ~unicipal Affairs and Housing Act amended during ::his session oi the House of Assembly to delete< c:~1is kind of authority for discissal of councils and cou.ncillors and <:hat thei= refere:1ces in Sections 508, 519, of 3ill 58 also be deleted.

So, Sir, I hope during committee stage or e7en be-fore that 1 the minister ·,..rould bdicate that he is willing to delete these unless he can provide, obviouslY.- adequate reasons for not deleting them and at ':he C~mrnittee s~ge we will ?robably be ~oving the appropriate mot..!.ons.

And lastly, Sir, ':he ?edera::.:.on's com::crn 3.S ':O t.:w ability, pan::icularly of smaller municipalities ',.;ithcut: recourse ::o expert st:af= in cot:iplying with t:.e requirement for :lve Y"'=il!:' forecast cf ca.;:.:ital expenditures as =:-e:;uired by Si!Ct:ion 91 of the !::ill. ~-;-ow, Sir, everybody knows that most of the people serving on councils throughout. ~ur ?rovince are pecple who are holding down ether jobs and are providins the :nunicipal :::ounciL; are one of t:h.e:n. the brain power and che exper':ise,·;.~hich they do :J.ct~ I w~ll rephrase tnat, even i£ c;cey nave the !J::a!.n power and even i:: they have ::.he expert:.se 'Hhich Z9S..1

Noveznber 19, 1979 Tape 1178 ?K - 3 !1r. F. Rowe: ~he Administration opposite, Sir, that r~s a five year plan every time they are asked an embarrassing question. 2955

~ovember 19, t9i9 Tape :1o. 1179 !:ver-Jthing is a :ive year plan. The federation feels that there a::-e many municipali~ies ·Nithin this ?~evince that just do not have the c~pability for doing this and they would like to see that ~ecei£ied as per the recommendation in their press release. Now, 3ir, there are three or four other l::ones of contention but, Sir, as my colleagues have indicated, ·.ve are tlasically against this bill because, number one 1 it i.s entitled something quite different from ·Nhat:. it is, in fact, imposing regional qovcrnment and the property taxes.

And ! have talked about the pros and cons of property taxes and asked the minister to address himself to why municipal income tax 'Has not taken into considerat.ion~and my -::olleagues have spoken adequately and eloquencly on the way that t...'l.e regional government is being slipped in c.he.re. There are many other t::hings, Sir, I could talk about- t.lte old Reid railroad ;::rcperty which was supposed to have been passed over to CN, which C1 •,.;ill not relinquish to the Crown of this ?rovince. They have been af<::er them for the last eigi1t years to do it:, lt is a Justice Department problem, I understand.

There is t:.hi.s whole problem of double taxauon ';o,lhere you have a person •,.;ork.i:1g in trhitbourne pay::..ng -:ax in tlhitbot:rne ~nd then having to pay another kind of a tax for garbage disposal, what have you up in ~ew Harbour, in that area. In the existing regulations that is something that does occur. : hope ~hat it. is taken ::are of .in the new .'ict. And ~here arc a n!.lm.ber oi ::.h:..ngs, Sir, but my t.irne :1as run out.

I 'NOuld just lilce ::a say that I hope the ::;i;1i:;ter Caes, in fact 1 address hi::1sel£ to ::~1e cnujor ;::oint that I maCe <::here and that was the ~raperty t.ax versus >::..e :nun:tc:tpal .:..:1-ccme tax ::::oncept. SCHE 2Ci. Y!.E~·1BE:P..S: Hear, hear! :-tR. S?E:AKZR (S.:.rn."T\5) : The hen. ~1inister :;;f i"'!ealth. YIR. i1CUSE: :ir. Speak.er, ~ only 'Nant ::o spend a "few zsss

~ovember 19, 1979 Tape ;Io. 1179 t.'H- .2 :-m.. EOUSE: of it has brought out our point of 'Jiew, ::he point of view of goverr.,."t''ent. ,as have c:.he ,?revious minister and the ?=esiden': of t~c council. All of these have given the government point of vie'4 but I just want to reiterate some of the things that they have said and to add a little of t:lY own point of •.riew.

I was, for a litt:le while; involved in municipal politics, six years as mayor of a small :::cm.T.unity, so what th.e bill is actually doing, of course,.. it is in itself a manifestation of responsibility by a government ~~at see the issues squarely and faces up to them. That is exactly what ~~is bill is doing. Now, Mr. Speaker, everything ·,.;e do in ::his particular bill may not !::e ~opular. It just may :;ot :-e. But chere are two '>~ays tr. govern and cne way, of cours~ to gave:::;. 1.3 =.a say, "There go, my people 1 I must go out and see where they is a highlY raw ?Olitical, ;1ighly irresponsible route.

And :::te other,. of course, is =.o look at ~he studies ~~a~ have been done, to lock at the issues and the benefits in the lang~erm ~d to 1 after consultation, after a lot of consultation 1 ::a say that we have to take t.'lis appr-?ach and direct ,:,ur attent:.on w.:.t!1 the :?ublic for the common good towards reac~ring these objectives. That is what I call a respor.sible af::proach, and a statesmansh1.? approach which of course this gov<?.r:?.ment !:avours. :·1r.

Speaker, I sometimes si': down and I listen t:o :;?ecple raving en about what we should be doing, ~nd what •t~e shoulC be doing for ::::1e publi::, but find in a lot of cases at :;mother t:ime. And I believe "that has c.:1used ;;; lcr. of ;:>roblems. 3o fi.rst of all 1 : ·..;ant to say that ,.;e are in favour of lcoiting at c.hings realistically a:td this J?l.ece of legislation is a realistic approach. Now ::he member for ?ri.::ity - Ba:' ::ie ?e.t::ie Z95'7

SD - l in second reading, wi:1ere the Law Socie~y ca-:te !:a.c~: anci \''antcc! f'.lrt.her as ::n..tc:: chance as :'l.nybady else to ;et i:l?'.n:. into 1.t, they wanted a lon;er ;;eriod of r:i;:~e. :;oing :.o be satisfied t:.'1at ~1.ere .us Zeen .,;::-.ou;.< ti:::o s;,;,cnt on it. If anybody

I'.lt:'e :<o. 1130 SD - 2 :-tl.. ;-;, hCL'S2:: a.nd the large r.ur.ilier of delegations with whic!"i. a minister anC a clepar::.=.ent ::urrcnt: t:-,.·o or t.."u::ee ::-.inisters can talk aLcut: t.."lat: ::td infinitw t..iut it .,.as ;, ::;ani::.::s::.at:ion of ::.he inaCcquacy of :...1.c ;:resent or r,.;a.s-::. l~qislation, and, of course, it is a ~anifesta::.ion too of ~•e pclitical tanperament of today, So, we did have a bevy of ·.;ork, ;.;e l'lilcl a lot ::;f ;.;ark -:rom ti\e Henley Corr!nissicr, =ight on up 1·J1rough, and the Wbelar: ?.oyal Corr~":lission ·which had ::.he input ,;,nd the i.'Tlprint :r::;m evc-::y cor.-.::-~uniti· on l.t, 0\..;.d I was one of ·:: .. ae. person:;; who act:.:.=-.lly presem:.ed ;;o::.e input: f:::cT. '::...'le Federat.ion o: >lun.icipalities.

P..:'.d wc_at. ·.,;e .J..:::e seeing ::.or,: ;;,ow in chis legislacion is c~e basic :J.Uts and boles of bat. going into effect.. :low, t:."le :.<e.o·:U::cr for :":::-ini cy - 3aj' ·,.;e have :-.ot been looking at tae Csna.C.i.zl.n ;:;cene, ;.ock;;..ng J.t. e•Jery <2veryt;ody :.ays, "Aell, you K.r:ow1 what is ::he !:es:: so'--"rce c£ t..:!Xilt.ior:? ZSS9

su - J and ! .:t.":l sure ;;eoplc can give ot21ers, So t~i3, as I said, has teen the result of a study that had a lot of iaput by t.'1e E't<deratic::. of >!unicipali.ties, oy the tihelan Royal Co::-clssion which wa;;

':'ape :lc. 1191 AE-1 widely acclaimed and, of course, now we are s<lying t!"lat we have got to put it ir.to e!fect. :,:ow, basically ~..;hat Goes it de? !t does, simply, a lot of t.'le things ::..,at we have =een Coing heretofore. It proviCes for elected cocnci!s and it eli~inates t:.ese local improvement dist=icts.

But it Coes set ~p a ~echanism to logically deal wi~ areas that Co not •,.;ant. total incorporation. 1de !'lad the water co~!.tt.ees and ':."'.e waste disposal committees. tiell 1 t.here is another :r:echanism ::;et up here now which will Ceal a little more ccrrr~~ensively with the proClems and still not have to go into a full-fledged :m.tnicipal government !t aLso 2ets up a :r.echanis::: for regional goverr:rr.ent, or regional interest. ,~d ! do not care what people say it just does give enabling legislation ar.d again,as •,..re travelleC arotmr:: t.'":e ?rovi;;ce,or as ! travelled around the Province,and as ! saw in various cor.~ittee ::'leeti:~ss in the Federation a lot of t!"le rr.unicipalitit'!": said t...'":at :he:::-e must :::e some leveJ of regional co-op~rat:J.cn and ti".e'} did it, en their own. !t was not in legislati8n 1 they just CiC it on -:."lei: cwT..

"Jf course, you can loci; at tJ1e Eh::rir Peninsula situation ·..;here t."lere was a let of good but: t.~erf' was :-.a teet.., in t::a': 7 it ·-·as just set: up. .;s a ::1a':::ter of fact 1 'Ne C!Sed to ::ave to let the::: i:-.t.o federation :::eetings by lc~ve Cecause ~~ey did ~oc have 3ny legali~y, can :r.er, ~i.cn ·,;as Hu:nber '!alley "'her~ all the communities that: li·:e on t:he '.o~ate.r-sb. 0d :;f t::e P.~ter '!alleY i:our.d -::co;e<:::.er ir. :1 -'"'-rl"'cn stance tt': t:r:r· :u:C Cc allc•.1 t:-:at ~.o ;:erne atcut is gcir.g to !!.ave a rcsit:!·:c: effec-:. ':':Oe

Tape ~lo. 1181 is financially involved,t.he financial responsibility should r.ot !Je necessaril:• Oy •rirt.uc of .:t ccr::::unit:r !:-,~tt !::aseC en t.l:e inCividual's a!:ility to T}ay, ! a:n ~ct sayir.g that you should pick it out, you ~o t~is and you Co that, but we will say,well,we should not have property ta:< ir:. this ::C::"..":''tmity because t::.e pecple are not. ·. c: l of£ enougr. to scst.ain i -:..

I do r.ot think you can go in any ccrrmu:-.i ty in t:::is ?rovince and ::cake that as a blanket stater.:ent. '!!"!ere arc pecple in these cct':lll"ur.i ties who have gooC property anC ·,.;he are rraki:-:g gccC r,.oney ancl. there are peer people in the large cot:1l1nnities+. So I t:r.i:;J: t."le fairest way is the way t.hat we are t.alking about: anC s.ay if !i!t:; percent 'J! you have c.hese .services you s:tould be at!e tc ~cr.:e up wi t.."l Scr:'le f.inartcial responsil:ili. ty. New, it ;:,ay nee be :;oli':.ically goccl but it certainly is ::inancially sour..C. Let rr:e give you an exam::'le, >!r.

Speaker, and t.'1e P:=esiCent of t!"le Cour.c.:.l alh::ded to it. t~e ether day r I will use :ny own tot-m en t.~e ~·Jest Coast a> • .rH:: ::-:y ':aY~s <:.:;-..;::::~, :.s :r.ayl::.e, I do :-.ot know, 1 am cnly us.tng a figure, S51ii1 "- ?ear '..:!"::i.t"'' is :r.aybe less than C:::rner 3r:)ok: and per!:'.aps leSs than level of s~~ic~ an~ t:-:e'! :nay be paying $50 a '.(ear enen though chat: particular persor: !"lay :)e :nakin<; as :->uch :0cney as ! a."l1 or !:".ore. ncv.:, 29€2

Nove~her 19, 1979 Tape 1182 EC - l. :-!R. HOUSE: One o~~er ~~ing we have ~o bear in :n.ind - and !!his has been some'thi.ng t..'1at t:.'lis ,?articular government has done, and you can go back to 1970 or 1972 and see it put into practice, that \ole have provided good exemptions. For instance, ~"ie school tax, people over sixty-five do not have to pay school taxes. New, in municipalities, ~'1e municipalities are given a mech.anism whereby on dema.r:u:l or when t.'1ey look at a person's wherewithal, t..'1ey may exempt any citizen who does not reac.'1 a certain level, and that has been Cone just recently.

This new legislation is providing a lever there for people on fixed incomes, ?articularly people whose only source of income is the old age pension. So, Mr. Speaker, I do not see property tax as being detrimental, r see it as a fair ·.-ay - if it: is fair for one community it is !air for another. ~ow, the second thing ! want to address is somet.'ling t:.'lat: is, obviously, you know, ::... .. e responsibility of t.1e government.

We talk about somebody not being able t.o run if he nas been dismissed or t:he council has been disnu.ssed for a period of t:'1iO years. ~ow, I t.."l.ink it is only fair for t.'1e depart:men-: t:hraUgh legislation to insist: on t:.'1at. Aft:er all, we, ::...~e gov~~~nt. of ::..~is Province, ::...'1e provincial gover..ment, and t.l-te tnUl'licipal government jointly operat.e towns. We have a financial input: and the munici.pa.li ties have a financial input: - ,.,.e bot.h operat:e t."lem.

And I do not. see anyth.ing wrong ..,.it:.n requin.ng a two year period out: of municipal politics if the person has, cf course, been dismissed. Obviously, they would not: be dismissed '.o'it.'1out: good reason. A.nci ~·us logic of t·.,.o years for a cooling off period and for :.he community :.a reassess, I do not. t.."l.J.n.k t.¥Jere is anytiling wrong ·,.,.it.'i it, :.tr. Speaker. Yffi. ST!RL!NG: People cannot be -:rus-ced to make '.11? their own :ninds • HR. tmusE: Mr. Speaker, as t:'le 'non. :nember says, peopl~ canno-c be crusted t:o make up their own :r.inds.

There is only one way t.'lat -:..'I.e gove:runent has any input at. all. We have ilal: -::he cost, pret:t:y "'el.:..., of =ur.ni:J.q -: .. l1ese communi::ies at. the 9rovinc:i.al level and t:n.e ether half, ZS63

November 19, 1979 Tape 1182 EC - 2 MR. HOUSE: or thereabout, ae the ~unicipal level. So they certainly can do the electing, hut ! th.ink we should nave some sttings attached. I do not see anyt."ling wrong wit.'t it. MR. STIRLING: Do you agree with t:..'te federal people naving ehe same kind of restriction on us? MR. HOUSE: 1 ~~nk perhaps ~ey may have it but ehey do not have t.'tat specific one. Certainly, they have a lot of strings attached to how we spend t.'te money ~'tat is given us, Mr.

Speaker, I ·.;ant to just dwell a little bi:. en e...'te ever popular theory that the han. t.'le men-.ber for LaPoile (Mr. ~earJ) mentioned t.'le other day. I read a little of what he was ea.l.ki.ng about - and his particular one is,"ramming things down people's t..'lroa~! He is always saying we are ramming things down people's throats and I call it the :-;eary Theory. It is the use of language to hide t.'te issues.

The whole issue ~s ~hat we are being :responsibl~. ·..;e 3.re supposed to be here to legislate: and I do not t..'"link we can go out to t:.1e public wit."l every li:.tle t..1.1.ng ~ha:. comes up far a referend~~. ~e are here t:.o legisla:.e, and r want to po~nt out ~o all members, ~f course, that we were given ~,e ~date. We were told, 'You are ~~e fellows who we t.'tink can bring in legislation - you go ahead and do it.' .!Uld, of course, that is ,,..hat. we are doing and. we are act:..lng very responsibly. H.r.

Speaker, ! t.hink you can go back and look at. t.he legislation t:...~at. ·.;e have had in t.."le past and, of course, it has all been good. I am not going to dwell en t:...'lis any longer, ! ~~ just. standing here today to say t."la:.

I support tne bill. !he main cont.enuon, of course, is t.."le taxa.t:..lon system. .,.,. is t.'1.e one that has proven rost successful across Canada: it:. is t..'1e one t..."la::. t..itis gove~~ent:. has looked at, t..'lat t.'te federation nas locked at ~,d, oE course, it is the one <:.'lat we can see_ at:. :..'lis present poi!'l:. in t:.~:ne wnere .,...e can get federal input, because <:.,e federal goverr~ent will ?ay ~axes in lieu of property and t..'tey would not ::ia t..'lat if, 29&1

Novernbe= 19, 1979, Tape 1183, ?age I -- apb ~. HOUSE: as ~~e member for Trinity - Bay da Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) was suggesting, if it were income tax. It:. is a little late. SOME HON. ~~EPS: So this is good legislation. Oh, oh~ ::Ll'l. HOUSE: I was going to close, Mr. Speaker. I said I did want to spend the full ~Nenty minutes. ~ think it is good legislation, it is statesmanship legislation, it is legislation that does not fear any political repercussions. we think when we do the right ~~ing that it is going to be acceptable.

The people stated in the last election that we are ~~e ones who can do t.'le right t:.hings. SOME HCN. MEZ..JEERS: :1R. HOUSE: Hear, hear~ I ~~ank you fer listening, Hr.3peake.r, and ! corr.rnend t...'"l.is legislation to eve.::-yone. -rha.'lk you very :nuch, SOME HON. ;.r;:'HBERS: Hea.::-, hear! ,;-UL SPEAKERIBaird) The han. =he merr~e.::- :or Baie verte - ·.vhite Bay. .'1?,. R.I::EOUT: Mr. Speaker, I was ra~~er worried a little earlie-r ::.~is afternoon when I thought ~ saw developing a trend in the House that net a lot of 2ecple were intended to speak on ::.~is paticular ?ieee of legislation.

I happen to agre-e with the ~tinister :;;£ ~tunicipal Af!:airs ar.d Housi::-.g in C)Oe .::-espect, in one regard and that is t..~a:. this is -J. very r:tajcr piece of le']islation. : believe i<: is incUirbent on .J..!.l ~er.bers of c:tis ;-louse, no matter what side they sit on or 'Nhat party :...'l.ey represer.c, co express ~eir views on a piece of legislation so all-enconpassing and so all-impor~ant as t..~is ?arcicular bill is. think it would be a crirr.e, :1=.

Speake.:, ~= this bill were to pass :::;eco:1d reading, which is approval in principle, ·;~it.hout every last soul, every last :nen-be:r i:-, ::his Reuse at least ~x?ressing t.heir views on ::.'lis piece of legislat::icn. :t:. is a r::ajar pi~c::e of 29£5

:~m;er.::ber 19, 1979, Tape 1183, ?age " apb Y.R. RIDEOtT: of pri:lciples :.hat ·Ne have not had incorporated into law in ~unicipal government in this Province ever before in our history, and I t.Ilink for that rea~ on alone it is incumbent on every :::ember here to t::y to assess, to the best of their ability 1 how their constituents feel about this piece of legislation and to let it be known in ~~e House.

I do not t.'link it is i:npor-:ant wheth.er a lot of '..lS agree with everything that is in the bill, I do not think it is import.ant that ·.;e just get up and mauch of=,for t.,e t.~irty ~nutes that we are allowed, on the areas with which we agree and on ~~e areas with which we disagree, t.~at is not the point; the point is, Mr. Speaker, that this piece of legislation will affect every single individual living in this P:::-ovince today ~ho is under municipal qovernnent,and it will affect all ~hose who ·.;ill come U.'1der municipal government at any time in th.e future i£ it is to pass as it is here before us now.

So £or that reason alone I thir:.:.:.: it is a duty, it is a sacred responsibility !or every :::embe:::- in ~~s House, no matter what area ~~ey represent, to let the Hause and let the minister have the benefit of their views ~nd ~~e benefit of the views of ~'1eir ,:;onstituents. I say ~~a-c, !1r. speaker, in all honesty -md I think it woul:l be a crime if ~~is bill is to ;;;ass wit.hout every single person,wit.'1out exception, expressing their views on it. Mr. Speaker, having said that let me say ~~at I have ~o i~tenticn of ccndemnins this 8ill cu~riqht.

I :~ir~ ~~at ~~e bill in principle is certainly long overdue. it is long overdue . !:: i:> absolutely ~ecessary that t.'1e var.:ous .::onsoli.dated into the type oi doctll':l.ent that '"e have here. I :.!'link: t!1e ~ni3ter is to be ::ompli:nen::~d far ,:::oing that~ Him and his officials, whom : know :nust have spent

~ovember 19, 1979 Tape No. 1194 D'V-.1 - 1 :.J.R. '!'. RIDEOUT: so much time putting together this piece of 1egislation 1 are to be complimented for making an effor~ to do that. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, there are many areas, many proposals, many clauses in the Bill that I have to disagree wit:h. r have to disagree, for example, with the philosophy of re?resentation that ;.;as e::r,?Oused Oy t:he ::-.on. Xinister of HeAlth, ~he member for Humber '/alley (:1r.

House). ~low here during the election campaign of four or =our and~a-half months ago do I recall 1 in my riding cer'tainly among any of the candi­ dates who were seeking election,and I think I would be on safe ground to say that nowhere in the Province was property tax in itself, an issue in the election that we just came through. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hea::! ~R. R:i:DEOUT: None of us, :!:: . Speaker, were e1ectedJor none of the candidates were defeated on any particular stand that they took on property tax.

And : think that it is grossly unfair and grossly simp1~stic for th~ ~0~be:: for ~umbe= Valley co say, on such issues of pr~nci;;:al i!:1t:Ortance, r.:o every ~an, woman and child in this Province that we have the ~odgiven right to say that that is going to beco~e the law no matte:: how you feel about it. ~hat is not my concept of representation, Mr. Speaker, and I do not think it is <::he concept of representation of many members sitting in t~!s Haase ~oday. SO~E P.ON. ~1E~3E?.S: Hear, hear! ~.R. T.

R!D'E'.OOT: ~obody asked me what my views were on prope::ty tax ~hen I w~s seeking re-ele=tioc ~n June ~•cause proper<:::y tax was not an issue. ~he government party did ~ct ~ake property tax an issue. we did not ~ake ?roperty ~~Y an issue, I do not believe the other 9arty, t~e ~lD? t.'ladf' ::;r:J;::er::y -:ax an issue. Z967

:lcver.~ber 19, 1979 Tape ~Ia. 1184 DW - 2 :-1R. RIDEOUT: So the real ~ssence of what I am saying, ~r. Speaker, is that the people living in areas of this Province that are not today under the property tax system have not had an opportunity to speak, they did not speak on property tax in the last election and they will not be speaking on proper~y tax again until after the fact. I cannot give my approval to legislation that is going to do that kind of thing to the people ! represent. And, ~r. Speaker, I- am not personally against prcp~~t~ tax in p~inciple.

If a communit~ by ~ajor!ty vote of its ::axpayers 'Nishes to o:ome '.lnder the property tax system, then that is democracy/ more power to them if theT'Wish <;o do that. aut what we have here, Sir, what we have in this particular 3ill is an attempt by the government to say that if you want the services then this is what you must do, 1 You must institute a property tax system before we will even begin to talk to you.' ~hat is what the government is seeking permission, seeking the authority of th"e House to do in this piece of legislation. 'lo•..:.

I cannot accept that kind of approach because the people that I represent have not had an opportunity, they have not had an opportunity to have the question posed to them whether or not they fa?our property tax as a ~eans of taxation, whether or not they would be for it under certain circumstances or whether they would be totally against it, ::: have had no opportunity, other than t!"iose who have heard of this Bill in the news 1 to seek out the ccncensus of opinion of th~ ~eople that I re~resent and therefore, Mr.

Speaker, ~ ha?e to ::iisag~ee ver? zt::rongly ·..:it!! the philisophy of r~presentation tha: was proposed by ~y friend from Humber Valley (Mr. House). Property tax, ~r. Speaker, as ~ said I am not against ~uc a comm~nity ought to have the right without the blackmail approach - I "cannot find any other way to be able to speak on whether they want property tax to be i~posed in that town or !n that =o~~u~i~y 2968

:-.lovember 19, 1979 Tape tic. 1184 DW - J ~R. T. RIDEOUT: and under this particular legislation they do not have ~hat right~ They did not speak on it in the last election, they have never spo~en an it as a people in any election that I know of in this Province, and they ..,ill not have the oppor­ tunity to speak =n it i! this particular Bill becomes law 1and I t~ink they ought to have the right to do that. !n fact, Mr.

Speaker, ! would very seriously recommend to the minister that there be some recommended mechanism written into this piece af legislation so that the people in the areas affected would have an opportunity to speak. And I say that because this Bill ~ot only affects communities who may go after water and sewer systems this year or next year or ten years down the road 1 it a!fects communities who now have water systems and/or water and sewer systems in place.

Communities in my district and in every district represented in this House who have had water and sewer systems put in in the last five or ten years will now be forced, without any choice 1 to impose 2969

:;ove.."l'.ber :.9, l9i9 T.3.pe ll8S PK - 1 :tr. Rideout: a property tax system of taxation i~ their ccr:r.:unity. Tha't was :.10t the condition, Hr. Speaker, t:.ha-;: they were g2ven the funds on last year or the year before or five yea.::-s ::;:rev~ous to that cr t·,;enty-five years ;:revicus co that. That was not the condition. Tr~t was :.1ot a condition of 'the capital furding that was ~pproved by the goverr_"!lent. There was no mention of that. sut this par-.::icular f,'liece of leg isla cion does that, communities ..:.hat .:1lreaC.y have the systems i.:1 place ?nd .::ammunities, :tr.

Speaker, :hat are charging, by the ,_,ay,the rate that the gover::1..'llent _had forced en them, will now have to go back again,withcut any recourse 1and L~~ose a proper~y t~x system ~n that community. Englee will have to do it, LaScie will have to Cc :~. Seal Cove will have to do it, that is three I c,:>:n think of in my ::ons:ituency who will have no cno~ce - ~.tp . :S':' .:'I.GG: :·il·.at abcut Roddickton? ~A.R. R!DECUT: I will carne to ::hat in a second, Hr. Speaker. - will have no choice Cut to impose ~~e prcper~y tax syste~ i~ ~~eir ::crrmun~tJ..es.

And when they were approved for :he capi:al ::unding to ;:ut i:1 ?lace chose ·.;ace.r syst:er::s, and water or sewer systems some ']ears ago ::hat ·,.;as :1ev,;r a ccnditcn. Now there nay :te all kinds of arguments f:cr it, :~..:::. 5:;eaker, r nr. :1ot saying tha~, anC ~end to agree with lt. i= ~~e =ommunities in question had ,aC ~~ c~portur.ity >::o express ..:heir ti:cughts, :Cut. :.hey have not had .:J.:>. o;;:;Fcrtunit:r and will net have an op,t:or-::'.lnity bec-::.use this pi2ce of l'"'gislat1.on :or::es .tt. on them whether ::hey like it or :J.Ct.

Mnd that lS ·.vhy I -::cmmend to t!1e minister, T -.;ould hope, that some sort of !:'e£erenCur:; clause ::::ou2.ci 8e ·.;ri::::sn i:1::o t'nis ;,ct so that: ccrr:muni::ies 'dill r.ave a ;:!lance ;:c ?o!..ce -.racer and se•;,~er f:ee that the governr::e.nt ::ells th~m t:hac ::hey ::-.ust :.1c~.<; ;::ay. Z970

~ave~~cr 19, 1979 Tape 1185 ?K - 2 :.1z:. Rideout: It has been done. In some cases councils l-..ave ara said, no,we are not going to do it. But the boys i.n here hold the power of ~he purse, and if they do not do i~ they find that their revenue grant, which they are expecting every month or so, just does not come through until it is done.

So they have not had an opport:uni:::y and they -,.;ill not have an opportunity to decide whether ,the people in the ccrrmunities, to decide whether or not they want to liv0 ~der a proper~y :::ax system, whethe~ they wDuld be prepared to increase :::heir wa~er and sewer fee from, say, $144 a year to SliS or ;180 to ;;ompensate. They :;o,ay '"'ant t.o go various ways, especially those ccr.munit..les who already have the systems in place, ltr. Sp.:!!aker.

And what: I am saying :.s !:hat there ;.s r:o other way for ':hem t.o go under ::his ;:ar<:icular piece of legislation than the way that the ::1inister wants :hem to ;c and that. is the forced l.."nposit.ion of prope.rt.t· t:a:<. Ncw1 the hen. :nember for Stephenville (Hr. Stagg) :nentioned Roddickt:on. :1r . .Speaker, ::r.ank God ::!-;_e pt"operty tax :_::; :<ot in ?lace in Rcddickt.on t:cday, l:ecause who ·,.;ou:!.d be able to :_:ay it) in 4 ccrr.munit:y wber•::! you have iS per cent or 80 per cent une:nplcjTient, hew '"'auld ::hey ever be able to pa:,.• the :_:.ro;;;ert:y -.:ax.?

T:,ey =.ay Oe able -;:o pay t:~e $1-i..; a year ·,.ater -iind sewer fe~ and the $25 or SJO 3. year, ·,.,ha::ever it is service fee, but wcul::! they be able to ?aY S3CO or $"4':::0 ::::r :;500 .a year property tax on top oi ~hat? And :ny 'Jnderstanding of. -.:he wa:, prcr:erty tax op~races .tn r::ost: corrmunic:.es the:1 :::ertE..tnl S300 or S400 or SSOO a year is net a ple in the sky =~sur(.

Certainlt c..:: LS net in will ::21ke the suggestion I have ::JaCe i:1 tl:.e sr::irit :::hat ::.ave :nade ;;articular piece of. leg~.slation t::J ;ive :;c:r:e particula= :hought, sane "fer:: c::;nce=:~ed thought, :::onsidera-.:e ::hought ::::1 put't!ng c..nt.o the

~cve~be~ 19, 1979 1'ape No. 1186 GH-1 :-tP... ?.!DEOUT: we do not do ic, but. they •,.;ill not have to :ace the spectacle a: having it:. shoved down their !:hroats, which is what chis particular bill does new. For communities that already have the wate~ or water and sewer systems in place 1 there is now no choice. Now, of course, ::ommunities that are seeking capital f'J.nding for those pu~poses are over the bar~el.

They do not have any choice aithe~, but at least the system is not in place. :£ they choose to w~thdraw their request for capital fundi:'lg, :.hen the property ti:l.X ·,.;ill ;J,Ot be :arced on them, but they certainly are, Mr. Speaker, over a barre~ in the sense chat !.f they do not agree '..tl.::h the gov-err.ment: on the imposit:ion of property taxes, then t.!1ey may as 'Nell take their application for capital funding and go horne, =ec.:l.use this bill is very clear.

It says that:. !.:n order for a cc:r.m,mic:r to ::ecei·-1e funding :or chose purposes l.:: the :uture, th.::y 'Nill have to agree to impose a prope!'ty tax or chere will '::le no fur':her consideration g::.ven to it. So, there :,rou are, c:f'.ey are in ::he corner. They either agree •,.;hether c:.'1e ccm:nunit:/ •,;ants it or nee '.:lr t!"ley take their marbles and go home . .;long t:he same vein, talking about 'dater ar.d sewer and IJropen:y :::ax, another very distressing cL:mse that I find in ::his bill, :1r.

Speaker, ::.s ::he fact chat peo£)lt: liTi.ng in communiti-es will have no choice to pay proper::y t:.lX or to ;;;ay wace:: a~d 3ewer :.ax if a system is put in place in a community ::egardless o: whether or ::at they ::hcose to avail of t:>ose ser•Jices. 0nce - 50 pe:=:- cent:: ::.s the ·;;ay '.mdersr:and the act - once 50 per cent of ::he ?eople say they •,;ant. i:: then everybody else in the comrr.unity, ·.-~he"ther :l'ley hook on to the system 0r noc, ·,.;hecher :ney c:se <:he ::;ervi.ce ::ere :oda.y. .;nd :: have to say, >t:c. Speaker, t.!'lat asa::.n r a:n ver:' ·,.;ary of t.;-,a:: :~.tnd of 3.uthorc..ty.

I£ -:here is, :o:: example, f.cr Z972

:.lovember 19, 19i9 Tape ~o. 1186 GH-2 :-l.R. RrDECL'"T: years and there is ~ water system put in a."1d t!l.ey cheese t:o continue to use t.1;eir own well - it has not poisoned anybody in ~,at length of ti~e - they choose to continue to u.se it, then, that is immaterial. They will still receive from c.he council, the municipality, a bill for service, "Nhether they choose to avail of ~~e se=vice cr not. And, ~r. Speaker, ! do net think that that is good legislation; I do not think that that is necessary legislation: and r do not believe that the minister ought to seek that ::ight ::rem this House.

I ·.-muld ask him to reconsider it.

I can see that there would have to be 'x' ntt!ttber of percentages of the population agreed to heck on to th.e system before the goverrtment would ~gree to expend ~he tremendous capital .::xpenditure that is :1ecessary ~o put a 'Hater and sewer system in many com...-nunici.es .1.n this ?rovince. r can :..mderst:and that. > t..i.ink that it: is a reasonable approac!1, but, if :or any particular reason and if, you know, Depart..."nent of ]ealt:h of:::icials and other of.:icials cannct End any health hazard or anything?!: that nature in place, then I do not believe that people .1.n ~his ?rov:nce,in =ural cornmunicies in this Province, or any ccmmuni:y in this ?rovince, ought to be farced to pay municipal taxes i.: ::hey choose :-:at to avail 0f ::he service. fully agree that. c:--,e goverr.--nent '"'auld bave t0 ha<.te a percentage agree:.ng to use c.he sys:::.e:n, to :.1tilize c.!-Je system, that is not tn'! argumen:::. :1-y argt:ment .:.s, again, ::!'!e :orci:lg and there is 5o much C:or::ing, ~r.

Speake::', in en is ?ar':..:..cular piece of legislation, ?GCEJle have no c~o.!,se anymore. The governrnen::: is go::.ng to get its 'da'f, I :nean :.he rn: .. '!lbers dic'tac:o ::axes :;;r '4hether :::l1ey 'Nil.l use c..'1eir own •..:ater system rather ::.h.an l:ook :orc::ed :.n::o :l corner, and you hzrte :::o l.ii(e :.::: ;JC lu:r:p it: and. ?ay the :narl'/ respec'ts, an excellent ;?iese cf leg:.slation. There ::;.re :n.:>ny Z973

~lovember 19, 1979 Tape No. 1186 GH-3 of self-government anC expanded sel=- government. There are many fine principles in this par~icular piece of legislation but, unfortunately, there are a number of things in it ~hat ~ake- that you just have no choice,i: you are going to represent -the views of your cons-cituencs 1 but to disagree witlL :-1r. Speaker, on the i?rinciple of regional goverr.rnent, again this bill is ·~ery dif:icult. I lis-cened on ?riday to the han. me~ber :or ?leasantville (M.::. Dinn) aga.tn Z974

:-love.'nber !.9, 1979 sw - 1 es;;:cur.:es his ~;,cor:,. of elect-ion .succ.;ss conscier:ce, no :J.esi-::.acion ·.·i;.a.tsoever ·,men it:. ::cr:~es to the pri.n:::!ple of regional gover:u:~enc. In ::act, I chink the princi;le of ::egior.al dander up, ~1r. Speaker, is forcing it en people ""hen they do not :1.1ve the opport!.lnit.y to respond 'Co whet:::Oer or not tl1ey war.t it.

If c::e ;ea;;:l<.!: of cite :-lcrt:heast. r.valcn wane regional govcrr .. -::cn-c, :tr. s;;:eaker, and they 'Joice :...~eir opinion in sot:le •.;ay ::~cugh .! :-efcrer:ciu::: or sc:::e other way t.i'lat a ::~ajorit:y of t.":e people ·,..•an.c ;:eqicr.al govcrr .. :r:em:, :nore po·,.er t:o them, t:hey can ;uve resior.al govern:;:ent:.

T:tey can have ten regional govern.>J.ents if t:i".ey ._.ant. it. a<J::1inist.r:1tion ::a ccrr.e, t:lut. no ad:ninistration, ::o gov,;:r:-.:.ent has tl:e business of forcing =cgio:1a::i. govcrr.r.en<:: down t.'lci.:: throats if !::!".ey ex:;;:ress the '>~iSil that ~l<::'J :!.o not ;.,>,;;.nt:. .tt.. Ar:c t.t:a.::. is ·,:ha.': The Lieutenant-Governor in cour.c.:..:, Z975

Tupe ~a. 11::!7 SD - 2 AR. ':'. RlD£:0:..:?: this purt:.ic'lla.r bill takes u.\>'ay t.~at avenue, it taJ.::.es away ~1-at cpport:.u:1ity again. And as I said, :-!r. Speaker, I have no- hesitation what..;;oev'""r in saying that, in principle, ! like t.~e concept uf regional gover~7.ent ~ut I do net like the concep:: of 1-.uving it shoved J.ov;n t.'1e t~oats of -:.he people •;~ithout: those people having an opport::mity to express 1 c.1.rougn t:.eir elect:ed ;:-epresenta ti 'Jes here in 'ieba t:e 1 ·.:he •:her or ;'1.0 t ti'.ey are for t:~a t kind of gove::n.-nent..

Reg.:.onal govern:r.e::t., : ·,..auld <::!'.ink, in cert:.ain .J.rca.s: of this Province -:an salve a lot:. of tl1e present r:tunicipal problems that we face.

The 2x?laits regional w~ter sup~ly, for exar.lple, is one ;;articular projec-t that comes to mind, :: ar.. sure Your Eonow:: is very £ami.:.iar v.·J..::.> it:. :'hat. is .:1 good thing, :;!"tat ;:;ajar towns in that. are~. ,;nJ, oCviausly, wi1en you have that t:ind ~£ regional service t.'lere has t~ bt! some sort: o£ regional responsibility "ery sacred right <:.o exprsss though t!1ey may be, then I say, '"'ho are ·-<e co :'orce anyth.ing else on >.:hen? 3c to me, ~x. Speaker, l.t 2276

,:;;:; - J o;::~ar~:..~nity ';0 s;:.eak. The :r.inis::.er :.ay;:> that in estal:<lishir.g :.e"'' ::ow:. ;;:cuncils ::.r :<e'H co:::r::uni~'l ::cur.cils he •,rill have :1 2977

~ovember 19, 1979 Tape 1188 HB - 1 MR. RIDEOUT: feasibility report done. There used co be in our ~unicipal legislation the fact t.'lat a petition had to come from t.'le community, a public meeting had to be held in the community whereby the majority of the people of voting age ~ould say yes or no co whether or not they wanted a municipality established in that community. r see no evidence of that now anywhere in the legislation.

T:.'l.e minister can now establish a town council, a community council, on :..1-J.e basis of a feasibilit:'f report:., and I assume t..'le feasibility report ·.oould just~ simply say "Yes, Mr. Xinistar, it looks like this particular area can support financially a council, t..'lerefore, i! you wish to do so go ahead and do it..' No avenue whatsoever, :10 :neans \olnatsoever 1 for the people living in t..'lat area to express t..I-J.eir views.

The idea, t..~e =ancept., of :..'le community meeting has been done away wic.l;., as far as I can see,in t..'lis particular piece of legislation, and people again, ~our Honour, will have no choice, Again it is a force put situation where ~~e goverr~nt \olill force it on the community, or ~'le town in question, if ~~e government chooses so to do. that is ~~e situation \olit.~ property tax, ~'lat is the situation wi~'l regional governw£nt, and that: is t..'>le situation \olith t..i.e creation of new municipalities in t:.he Province. ether than t:.hat, as ! have said, r think cllt::! legislation lS an excellent piece of legislation in ~y regards, but unfort.u.,ately it has those three very important principles when one talks about municipal government, embodied in it:.

Having talked to a nt.m".Cer of people in my ccnst.ituency, people ·"'ho haci no ct::portu.nit:y :.o Sp>!ak at: t..~e '::allot box about 'Nhet..~er or net they wa.-u:.ed 2roper::y tax, or \olhether or not ~~ey might w~,t regional go~~rnment, because ic \olas not an issue, and has not been an issue in :nest. parts of t..'lis Province in t:.i.e last. number of years, they are saying:!: is dangerous, there :nay come a time • ..,.hen we \olill sane tc go under ~"l.is kind of system, Out right now :told\ olif'.

The :nll it.sel£ ln :r.any .::-esf:ect:.s is good, but c.'-l.ese are t:he bad po.l.~'t.S about it and '-<e have haC no oppor-:.ur.i::y- 2978

November 19, 1979 Tape llBB XR.

RlOEOll'T: and I do not: think t..'1at. it is fair to say that me Federation of Mayors and Municipalities speaks for e~~ry individual in a municipality in this Province. r know a number of communities in my consti:uency cannot even af!ord t:.c send their representatives out to the meetings because it:. is too expensive, and ~~se who do go, basically you will find many of the larger communities t..'1ere; you will find some of the smaller communities, but: usually,Sir, the smaller communities are the ones t:.hat.cannot:. afford to go to those annual meet:.ings to make their voices heard.

So ! believe Sir, t..'1e power t..'lat: the government is asking for under t::.'l.iS particular piece of legislation, as far as property t:.ax goes, as far as regional government goes 1 is certainly somet:.."ling I could not: support:. Howe...,-er, :...'1ere are :nany pa.rts of :..'le bill "Chat I think are excellent. The consolidat:ion of all those different ~unicipal Acts4 ! t..'link, is very import:ant., .llut in t:.hose t:'wc regards, '"'hich are .real.ly, Sir, :."i.e gues of :.~e bill, if you take ~~ose two or :.~ree principles cue, you are really taking away the guts of the bill.

The rest: of it I could support:, but ! could not support: this, unless the government agreed, ~~e minister agreed, ehat ~'lere would be sorr.e ooc.~anism put into :.."tis bill so t:...'iat tile people who are affected will have an opportuni~y. before irr.pcs~t~cn, :o teil tile gov-ernment how they fo?.el about: it. :-tR.

SPE.;:.:.ER: (Si.mms) Belle Isle. :iR. ?.cE E RTS : ~he hen. member fer ~~e Strait: of I£ no hen. gentleman opposite ""'ish£!'S to speak. ::= one does i wi.ll 1 o£ course gladly gl.ve way so as ::o preserve t..'ie ;Jell ~stahlished pri:1.cipla cf eac..'l side of ':.'l.e Ecuse speak.l.ng al t:ernat:aly. If no hen. gentleman eit:...'ler ;Jishes to, or is allowed to speak, ! certainly ""'ant: eo say a few words on second reading of t.i.is :::ill. ! :;~cognize :.;;e han. ;r,e:;'.i;er for the :1R. RCBE?.TS: Thank you. Z979

':'ar:e ::o. 1188 ~:E - 3 is prohabl'!, in size, as large a =:ill as has ever been prese!1ted in c:!;e ;-rouse af Asserhly by any l:linistc::-. It has >:71) sections i.n ~he Z900

:rP.

E. ?OE!:'?'::'S: in t!;e bill, it runs to t"dO hundred and for't:y-fcur printecl pages and that is an impressive arr.ount of work on the part of the drafts peopLe anC ! t!1ink ~ .. e should :te t..1"1e very first to recogni=:e t~e arrount of work '<~hich has gone into this on t..1.eir part and en the part of the minister and :tis officials. ?ut I do not think ·,.,re shculC fer one rnct:"er.t allow cursel•Jes to be lest and. allow ourselves to !"lave -:ur •,rision of t..~e !ore~~ obscured by ~ =onsideration of the individual trees in it. ~.os"t. of this bill ,1 venture to sw;gest 1 ar1.d I think t..l-te minister · ... culd ccr.cur wit..'1 •.o~hat ! am about t.o say1 r:to'Zot of this bill is n.0'::..'1lng :::ere or less tl':an a consolidation of a nt:IT~ber of sta<.:uti!S which r.a~re been on t~e orCer becks of ~~is ?rovince :or a ~u~ber of years.

T~ey are Ccrrr:ur.i~y Council's Act, t!'le Local 'lutl:ority: a C'ont:-cl of :Sxper.Cit•.Jre Act, <:he Local \-ovarr.1:1ent Act, th.e Local Gove:rr:rnen t -Elections .\ct "".he Local Govern!'Tent R·' ~-ci ·.rershif:: lc"::. :'hese essentially art> ':he acts ur.CC'r ·,..rhi:::h :tur.icir:al Gcvernrr:ent i.-:'1 <:."lis ~rovince is at ?resent carrieC cut1 wit:. t~e exception cf .:'it least t~ree ct~er acts · ... -~ic:-t ccme to my mine and ! think <:.':;cy a::e of Corner Bred· Act an::' the St. Jot;n's :~etrcrolitan Area ;.ct.

E:ach of these three :?:t:nici.pal bodies is esta.l:lisheC E-y a s:;:ccific piece ,a sreci.:ic at all to c:-onsoliCat.ing the law. Jraits :;ecp!e ar.C rnini::;te:-r; aro;: t:eloV"!C Z9S1

so~ethins as s:r.all as ',:;-.,e. ccrr:rJ . .mi ty Council of ?aleig::. in rr:y cwn district,- or :.:-:e local i::-,- prove~ent 2istri::t o£1 say, Hogan's PonG the r:mnici:_:al c:"l.tity in '"'hie!-. I ct:rrentlY reside. Fowever, that :...s nei.,o:.her here r.cr t..~0re. in any su.bstant:. ve sense , if the =:i:1ist.e.r anC :Cis colleas-.:es wish ':.0 consolidate the lav:s relating to ::mnicipalities t::cn so !::c it.

I ~>tant to talk fairly brie:.y, I will net use >..ere <::-.an t..'-,e :-.alf :;cur whic!': has been alloteC to :r.e, about some of t!:e ;;ew fe.ature.-s ir. t!le :::ill. '!'!"l.ere are several nm.; £eat'!..lres. ~one of t.."lerr do r.ct requi:-e a great ~eal o:: di.scuzsicn~ ! ~::ink the :tinister ,'-'hE!n ;-.,e s;cke to heartily approve, for example, of the taking away from ~~e ~nister the ::::ec;_uiremer_ ':. and -::;,:: powar t:o approve a lot of r.he acts en the ~art of ~unici:r-ali':.ies~ ! ':..l:.ink ':..':e :ninist:.er -,.;ill get f~l: consent :"rc~ a;: :abr:~Ccr '..;as ::.:; i ':s infancy, it :~ cnly in the last <iight, -::.er:.,cvelve year:;; ':hat ;.;e ~a·Je reall:t 2S82

!'l'o'J'ernber 19, 1979 Tape !'l'o, 1190 ow - 1 !1R. E. ROBERTS: I thini<: it is fair to say that is probably the ~ajor ~otivating force that would lead people in any gi'J'en ~rea to wish to be incorporated as a ~unicipal go'J'ernment. So I think the minister ouoht to be commended for recognizing in law what, I think i:; is fair a.nd apt to sa~ has been so, in fact, for some time and that is that the Department of Municipal Affairs has no business supervising some of the day to day acti'J'ities of ~unicipalit1es.

Municipalities are self-govern1ng,they are elected by a gen~ral franchise, th~y ~~t~t ~nder statute which sets forth the powers that ar'!'! theirs ':? exe:rcise and thus by implication of the powers that are not theirs co exercise, I th.lnk lt is pointless that some of the officials in the mtnise.er's depa:t:-:1ent have had to de'J'ote a great deal of their e.ime e.o such things as reviewing budgets, essentially a rubber stamp. long as the municipality is operating properly it ought nc~ to be the concern of the de~art~ent nor need it t~ be the concern of the depart.mnet. ~</here 3. ;;-,unici:_:ality '9!!':.3 wto trouble then,of course, the minister ought to have e.he power to intervene and,of course, he does have the power to i~:~~~!ne under the legislation o! this Province.

No quarrcd 'N::.th that:, I think that is a step forward. I also like some a: the other requirements that will be laid down by this Ace. giving munici- palities a little more power, so that is good. freedom to function within their appointee 9ut having ~ade those points, Mr. speaker, I have to go on to say that there are one or t~o major points in this stat~te which caused me and my colleagues on chis side a: the Hous~ a great deal of difficulty.

A nuober of my collea~!l"!"i ~ave :;,ade admirable and able speeches and I do ~ot need to repeat,even if I could, the poin~s which they have made, .or thought my colleague ==om :Sonavista ~lcrth U·lr. Stirling), who spo~e in response to the :niniscer :nade a Eirst- ZS83

sovember 19, 1979 Ta?e :to. 1190 D\-1 - 2 :.!R. E, ;!.OBERTS: class speech, one ·,.;hich had a great. deal of wisdot'l. .:.n i::, one which was founded on a grea:: deal of experience nnd may ! add 1 a great deal of homework. And a number of my other colleagues have made good speeches. I happened to hear, because he spoke just ~efore me,much of what was said by the gentleman for Bkie Verte - White Bay (.'1.r. Rideout) and ! thought: his speech summed up quite nicely most of the points which we on this side wish to make. A number of others of my colleagues spoke equally admirably.

I am concerned, Sir, primarily, and I ·.rill not talk about the taxation situationr that has drawn a lot of attention from members and I guess that it is right that it should and I do not need to repeat what they have said ! think they have ::~ade the case eloquently. I doubt if it will have any more i::1pact '.!~a~ the minister than it ·,..ould to blow upon a mountain in the :tope of mov~ng it:. The minister has made up his mind rightly or wrongly and he is now as immovable as a mountain would be.

But I want ::::~ tal% about regional government ::.ecause, I ehink, Sir, this is an issue where this Bill goes too far in the wrong way and at :he wrong time.

I am not sure, strictly speaking, that the regional government provisions contained in this Bill and essentiall:t as, Your Hcnou:::- 1 I know is familia: or ·ill ag:ree, they are found in - is it part four or part fl'' beginning about sect:ion 30q ~ it:. is part :hree p::ovit!es a legislaeive code for regional governments. ! am not sure that :hat part ought to be in t~is :SilL I ·.rill not raise ~ poin~ ~f order on it,it is essen~ially a nugator•· poinr but:. :.h.is is a Sill eo estal:>li:sh !7\unicipal gove:-nrnen::~.

I a;r, :10t s su=e ::hat a Bill to establish regional government which !n e~fect is a county syste~. 2S84

~ovember 19, 1979 Tape No. 1191 GH-1 :o-tR. ROBERTS: I a~ not sure that ~hat is the same in pr~nci?le as a ~ill to establish municipal governments. In any event, I did not raise a point cf orCer and I am certainly nat attempting to do so now 1 \it is in tile bilL I Co not want to play procedural games_. ! want r.o lay before the minister and his colleagues some points which I ~elieve are valid and 'tihich I hope ::hey •dill take into account.

We have had a lot of talk about regional goverrunent in this House in the last two or three years. lie had a mar•Je.!.lous piece of parliamentary procedure perpetrated by the meti'.bers of t:he then Upposition, of whom I 'Has one, just before cite House adjour:1ed last .Su:n:ner. 'de saw the then :ninister, the gentleman from Pleasant:.vl.lle {Hr. Dinn), go into a fir.st-rate .;;nip, and -::hat is, perha;;s, the only word I can :1se to describe what be did because :..1.e House had given his ~ill the six-month hois~.

The Souse did nat defeat the bill, but the House cercai~ly precluded :urther ccnsiderat~on of it at that tl.me. !t is now in order t:.:J bring it back and so the gover:unent :1ave brought i-: !:lack, but :.hey have not brought it back, Sir, and I t.hink .lt is the point •,.;orth ;;,oting, as a separate bill, t:!it!"ier a bill to set: up a ;-L::.;rt;;.east Avalon regional goverr.rnent or :1 till to set 'JP a scheme, a syst:e:n of regional ;over:;,ment or a system of. count~es, t0 usa a name triac is used ~lsewhere. :::: <:l:ink ':hat tb.at, perhaps, is some,.;hat underhanded of -:he government.

It certainly shows a lack of courage, in my v1ew, because it:. shews that they are not willing to s':and up front and centre, !:;.stead, ::hey are t.r:;J..ng t::; :::ring i<: in as ;?ar!:. and ;,::;arce:i, of a much large:: ::neasure, one which deals "#ith t:.he present:!.y e:dsci:;.g ::nunicir;:alities :.h::oushcuc the ?rovince. :~ow, S1.r, have no objection to regional gove.::nment. :Cn ::act, : t:.hir.ic cne of the ;r:::at :sr:eps :'or..Ja.rd ',.;h:ch we could ':ake in <::his ?rovince would ce t::::; put int;::; _;:::lace a prope-:: systen of !:'egional -;over:-~-nen<:.

Bu<: :: ::!a :eel 'Je-::·'f s::::::ongly ::h:l': a ;;roper 2985

:-iovember 19, 1979 Tape No. 1191 GH-2 ;.1R. ROBER'i'S: legislative life f=cm a specific and a :!e£i:1ite ace: ~f t.."l.is Legislature, and that is not the case here. !t is !:Juried i:1 and lU."l\ped in '"'ith otter municiEJalities. ! think that is wrong because, in :ny thinking, regional governments are an animal, a legislat:i•;e animal, separate and distinc<:: from a town council as consti~uted ~y ~his ac.::. I would say to han. gentlemen opposite, par't:icularlv :::hose 'dho sit mutely and :neekly in ~he uackbenches,that t:.'::.ey ought to give a great deal of c9nsideration to ::his.

I know they intend to vote for ehe bill and I ~ave no ::ioub.t;. they have done so only after '<~hat they believe ::a be full and :nature consideration. 'Nould not: suggest anytbing else, but I ·.;auld say t.o them that ~hey ar2 c:eating, helping to c~eate by ~hei: support, a legislati<Je monst.rosi~y. This is not the way ':o bring :::-egional government: into chis ?rovince, Mr. Speaker. This is not ':he way to bring about what ought to be a great: reform.

Instead, it is being trough~ in almost in !.:he ::lark of night, stealthily sKulking about. ?urt:.he:-more, 'Nhat is be1.ng brought in, I would suggest, Sir, is ':!:1e '<~rong kind of munici:>al gove:-n."tlent, :he wrong kind of regional govern- ~ent, because I a~ ::alking cnlJ about regional government: in tjis ;;or::ion of w:1at ! 'Nish t::l say. Gentlemen q:;posite ought: to think about it.

The gentleman :rom :<.ilbride (Mr .. :i,.ylward), 'dho ! know 1s i-ntimately invol7ed 'Hit;, 'the affairs of his consc:i::·.:ents - and so ~e should be - and they ~xpressed some st!"ang '' iews a :;ear or :>o ?3..5 t, and I have :10 ::ioubt the hen. gentleman is aware of their '.r':.J::'HS - ie :nay :::r :nuy not be in ':t:ne with ::.hem, I a.":! noJ: (::mcer:~ed J.bout tine, he 1.s a :nan ·.;no 'Nill speak when iHo feels a need ':c sr_:;0a.l: - : ~ave ::o :t:roblem ·..rith t:.at. - !:luc he ought to :-ealize that by ::!"',is bil~ 't.he :;eo:;::le of his constit..:Jency can De ;;;rousht inco a reqicnal qcver~ment, m.:.n.tst:.er :nay try co say ::o us chat "<::.here shall be pubL.:: :wt,ices, 6f ::.!:le act:. - : :nay have the ·..;r:mg se::ticn, but it is in ::he :1ct.. - 2986

Tape No. 1191 GH-3 :1R. ROBERTS: I am sorry, I do have the wrong :;;ection, it is 302 (1) of the act, and he may say that there has to be a public hearing and t~at is certainly required by

Section 301 of the act, a commissioner appointed under the Inquiries Act, but I would say to the gentleman from ?...ilbride (Hr. Aylward) and to others t:hat: if they think upon that and pc~der upon that a little, they may discover that Ls not much of a safeguard at all. A public hearing can be held very quickly, and : do not think ~~at a change, a substantive change, o£ a nature ZS87

!'Joverr.ber 19, 1979 Tape 1192 IB-1 sue~ as that aught to be done under a ~eneric, a seneral piece a£ legislation. He have a separate act .:or the City of St. John's and ! think that is proper. We have a separate act for the City of Corner Brook and 1 think that is proper. we have a separate act for the St.

John's Metropolitan Area Beard and I think that is proper. think it ~qually proper that we should have separate acts co constitute regional governments ',.;hether it is one act for all ::egional governments, if the goverm:lent intend to introduce a nurnber, cr whether it is siJ:~ply a specific act fer a specific area. But I do not knew hew my fr~end from Placentia (Hr.

Patterson) district '"'Cula feel -- he were to a~aken scme morn~ng and discover that his ~olleagues in the government, who do not always listen to him as he would be the f.!.rst to ;;"'· - they have not listened to him en the question of the Harbour Grace super;;ort.

In fact 1 what they have done is Elagrantly against what he says and what he expresses to be, and I have no doubt ~re, the feelings of nis =cnstituents on that point - but he may wake up some ~ornir.g and discover that the of ~i,;; dis~rict in c::he :::.er:ns ':lf ::.hat _:s ·...rhere ':he :najor.J..ty, the greater ::;ar':: of his constituents li·:e, Gunville and Fr~snwate.r and ?lacentla and Jerseyside 1 those four t:owns are a~algamated, net arnalga:naceci :..nta one tcwn but are ~rr.algarnated under a reg~onal gover~~ent.

And tf tne gentleman for ?lacent~a has a look ~t ~he powers t~t can be confQrred '.lpon a regional government by ·;ir~ue of sec-c.:.on 305 1 he may fir.d ':hat ::hey ·,.;auld go .:< long ·:~ay towards negating and renderinq nugat:::rj· :::1'.~~ ;owers of tt:cse four -:omrr.unit:.es. :1ow, S~r, it :nay cr may ;;ot be a ;::ooc idea to bring ':hose four cow.munities ::ogether !::ut ::hat is not <::he ;oint, ::he ;oi:1t ts ":!:\at it can be done under <:::tis bill very quickl'f and 1 I •tent:ure to suggest 1 'htthout r.:l1e i<:ir.d of public consul::.at:.ion that cugnt ;:;o precede o;uch a change, ! find those sections, I·!r.

Speaker, o£:ensi·;e. I t:hink that: ':he ;;cve::n::~ent: ought not co ;o ahead '...rtt:h -:hat: sc:ct:~cn cf :his bill at chis t~~e. t:hlnk '...re ought ::o see a sefa.r;; te Cill <:m Z988

Nove:nber 19, 1979 Tape 1192 !8-2 .1.1R. :tOBERTS: regional s;-over:-..menc. They ought ~o go back to essentially where they were a year or so ago until they miscounted one night or bungled their legislative business such that the Op?Qsition,which t~ey outn~~ered 1 was actually able to beat then on a recorded vote in this House. 2ut t.he fact they ·,...ere humilit:.ated then does nat: jus'ti!:y rwhat I believe '=o be or regard as a somewhat ur.derhanded or backdcor legislative action. They are ~ying to do by the backdaor what the House refused them permission t.o do through -:.he froncdocr.

And I believe, Sir, that the governnent of this Province should come in through the irontdcor not skulk in throug~ the backdoor on the question of regional government. Under this Act, Sir, this :1unicipalities Act if it is adopted a regional government could be established with extr:lordinarily wide pc\\•ers that are set forth in the act ar:.d they ~e set forth in quite general terms. I t~ink tr~t han. gentle~en in t:he House ought to be very rr.uch aware of that and ought to give some prayful consideracion to what could or could not be done under

section 304 {l), 304 (2),

section 305 and

section 306. 5ec~ion 307 and 308 give further powers. :~. STAGG: (Inaudible). ;.I?.. ?.GEERTS: Hy !1on. :riend £rem Stephenville {Hr. Stagg) thinks it is 306 (1) {bl. Obviously, Sir, i= chat i.s ::he way he carries out his law practice r.e might look aga~n bec~use

section J06 is cne of ~he few sect:J..ans ln t.his act that does ::.ot l":.avB J.hy subsections i..n it. .I.!R. STAGG: ~ am (inaudibl2) . The hon. gentler.Lan may Y...,'"\OW rr.ore al::out the :::::ir:~inal Cede ::han I Co, Si::, he obviously comes !::y .LC: pr:>.fessionally or otherwise. I c21nnot conmenc on what he :r.ay or may not. kr-.cw tut. r can tell him ~hat

section 306 of ::his bill has 1n it no subsections 3t all. It stands ~a~ed ~nd unadorned. ?~oud ·~ sec~ion 306 without an·l further t::o-do. ;ewers. '::hink .1t. is too ·w1.de a ;ower :::o )?Ut :n -:,he hands of :::he Z9S9

November 19, l9i9 Tape 1192 !3-3 ;..m. ROBERTS: Cabinet of tnis ?rovince. And ~hat is all ~~at the minister is asking but that, Si.:, is everything. Why should the Cabinet ta%e onto itself such a wide power, to set up a government that can embrace large areas o£ this Province? And r may add there appears to be nothing in here ~c designate what a region is as such. I am not sure that it might not be possible to set up a regional gover~~ent ~~at would incorporate all of ~he Province. That is probably r;ossible under this act as it new stands. It: may sound absurd but why does the Cabinet nee