Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 20 (30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-20

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Monday, February 18, 1974 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 487 MR . SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 50 students of Grades 10 and 11 standing. They are of the Precious Blood School, who is the host, and the Shelbourne Regional High School of Nova Scotia, who are the guests. These students are under the direction of Mr. and Mrs. Zimmerman, who are the guests, and Mr. Delaquis and Miss Dufresne, who are the hosts.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Boniface. We also have 50 students of Grade 9 standing of the Bruce Junior High School. These students are under the direction of Mrs. Oleson and Mrs. Webb. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. And a further 25 students of Grade 11 standing of the West Kildonan School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Butler. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks, the Minister of Health and Social Services.

On behalf of all the honourable members, I welcome you here today. Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements or Tabling of Reports. The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. TABLING OF REPORTS HON. HOWARD PAWLEY (Attorney-General) (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table .the 46th Annual Report of the Chief Inspector, Liquor Control Act, Province of Manitoba, covering the Operation and Enforcement, Liquor Act, fiscal year January 1st, 1973 to December 31st, 1973.

I would also like to table the 1972 proceedings on the 54th Annual Meeting of the Conference of Commissioners on Uniformity of Legislation. I also wish to table the 50th Annual Report of the Liquor Control Commission for the fiscal year April 1st, 1972 to March 31st, 1973; also like to table the Provincial Auditor's Report and Accounts for the year ending March 31st, 1973, in regard to the Liquor Control Commission; and also to table the copies of Returns under the Controverted Elections Act for the period January 1st, 1973 to December 31st, 1973 from the Court of Appeal and from the Court of Queen's Bench. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report of the Civil Service Commission, 56th Report, and I also, Mr. Speaker, would like to make a ministerial statement. MINISTERIAL STATEMENT MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, in reply to questions raised in the House on the collapse of the Powerview and Darlingford Arenas and the Department's policy of inspection, I would like to answer as follows. Incidentally, Mr.

Speaker, I thought I should do this by ministerial statement rather than answering questions in order that my friends in the House would have this before them. The National Building Code was legislated under The Municipal Act to be effective on January 1st, 1971. It was delegated to this department -t hat is the Department of Labour - for administration, and through co-operation of the architects and builders the staff of five building standards officers in the department are fully employed with checking plans and carrying out inspections in the development of the province.

Under The Municipal Act, the administration of the National Building Code is a municipal responsibility and as such the municipality is responsible to carry out plan inspections and building inspections. This department works in conjunction with municipal authorities and provides the expertise re quired to check plans and carry out inspections as an aid to the municipality. The Department of Labour also administers the Public Buildings Act, which requires that plans be filed with an Inspector appointed by the municipality and where the

488 February 18, 1974 MINISTERIAL STATEMENT (MR. PAULLEY Cont'd) ..... municipality has appointed an inspector or, secondly, with the Minister, and further, the erection shall not be proceeded with until the plans and spec if ications have been approved. The Act does not specify that the structure must be inspected after its erection or before occupancy. However, the procedure in this office when plans are submitted is to follow up with an inspection after the structure has been erected.

Prior to the legislation adopting the National Building Code under The Municipal Act, this division had one inspector on staff that travelled the province inspecting existing public buildings a s well as checking plans and carrying out building inspections on new buildings. During this period of some five or six years many older buildings were found to be in that state of deterioration where they could be a hazard. In some cases these buildings were con demned and replaced; in other cases repaired.

For instance, the building housing the rink in Manitou was replaced with a new building due to dry rot in the columns of the existing building. Plans were not received, Mr. Speaker, for either the Powerview or the Darlingford arenas and this Department was therefore not aware that they were erected. However, in both cases the design aspect was adequate and would have been approved by plans inspection. The Powerview Arena is a metal structure designed by computer and approved by both the City of Winnipeg and the province.

Similar types of buildings located in Winnipeg are Monarch Hydraulic on King Edward Street, Shorty's Construction on Wilkes Avenue, Prairie Freighters on Valour Road, Alamo Structures on Waverley. In the province similar structures were erected in Dunrea, Gilbert Plains and Teulon. The collapse of the Powerview Arena was due to incomplete construction. Although the building was erected, it was inadequately bolted along the eaves. The Darlingford Arena collapsed during the winter of 1969 due to a snow load of some 14 feet which had accumulated in the mid

section on one side of the roof. This arena was constructed of local timber and when it was rebuilt better quality materials were utilized along with better workmanship and a slight design change to strengthen the roof. A similar type of rink to the one at Darlingford was erected in Mather and has proven adequate by inspection. Both the Powerview Arena and the Darlingford Arena were erected as community projects utilizing the help from the commu nity under the supervision of outside supervisors.

Unfortunately, where a community or municipality proceeds to erect a structure and does not advise us that it is doing so and does not submit the plans for approval, we have no way of knowing that a building is being built and therefore cannot carry out an inpsection of the structure. Although it is the responsibility of the municipalities and other cone erned authorities to make themselves aware of their obligations under the law, I have instructed the Department to remind all municipalities of their obligations to comply with the Public Buildings Act and the National Building Code where they are applicable.

I'm sure, Mr. Speaker, that you will agree that it is fortunate that no one was injured in the collapse of the building in question, and I assure you, Sir, and my colleagues in the Legislature, that the Department of Labour will continue to carry out its responsibilities and to assist others in ensuring that public buildings are properly and safely constructed. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR . L .R . (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, we thank the Honourable the Minister of Labour for his elaborate and extensive report on the unfortunate events which occurred with respect to the Powerview Arena and for the background on the Darlingford situation and others. It would seem that the salient area of the Minister's statement comes in the third last paragraph on page 4 which he has just delivered to the House, Sir, in which he says he's instructed his department to remind all municipalities of their obligations to comply with the Public Buildings Act and the National Building Code where these are applicable.

In other words, I think we can agree that what is necessary, Sir, is a reinforcement of lines of communication fro m the department to municipalities involved in structural enterprises of that type, and I v.uuld offer this party's commendation of the Minister's efforts to reinforce that instruction and those lines of communication, and just make sure that every effort is taken to ensure that municipalities are aware of their responsibilities in that area. We 're fortunate a tragedy didn't result. This action has been prompted by the narrow aversion of a tragedy and that is fortunate for all of us, Sir. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR . I.H. ASPER (Leader of the Liberal Party) (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I would

February 18, 1974 489 MINISTERIAL STATEMENT (MR. I.H. AS PER Cont'd) ..... disagree with the observation made by my honourable friend from Fort Garry in his assessment as to what the key paragraph of this report is. join with him, of course, in thanking the Minister for reporting in as much detail as he has to the House, but I think the key paragraph of the report is the fact that this government says it was not aware of the erection of a public building, an arena, in the Province of Manitoba. The reason I find that astounding and almost incomprehensible, Mr.

Speaker, is that this government, the Province of Manitoba, made a financial grant to this arena and its con struction, and it's incomprehensible to me as to how the Government of Manitoba could not know it was being built when it was giving money for its erection, and in fact the First Minister opened, participated in the opening ceremonies of it. So, Mr.

Speaker, the advice we might offer to the Minister of Labour is that while he's sending out notices to the municipalities of Manitoba that they should let him know when they're building things, may I urge him to also send out notices to his confreres and to his governmental departments, that when they are approached for assistance or grants that one of the conditions, as is the case in most grants, that one of the conditions be that they furnish evidence of permission to build, safety inspection, and the whole procedure of design being satisfactory to Manitoba standards. I 'm not sure, Mr.

Speaker, whether we oughtn 't to go further at this session.

I would ask the Minister, because I must say I'm a bit disappointed that the report to the House doesn't suggest remedial action other than warning the municipalities to comply with the law, I would ask (1) that government departments of the Province of Manitoba should be alerted to the situation; and (2) that the Minister give serious consideration to bringing in legislation at this session which strengthens, amends the Building Act and the Municipal Act, which strengthens the requirement of the municipality to clear design and construction as it proceeds through a central safety department, which of course should be under his domain.

Mr. Speaker, with that we make the point that no one can underestimate the weight of what almost happened here and I'm sure the Minister of Labour would be the first to say that steps have to be taken to make sure this kind of thing can •t happen again. TABLING OF REPORTS cont'd MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs . HON. IAN TURNBULL (Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services) (Os borne): Mr. Speaker, under

Section 20 of the Public Printing Act I am required to table the Annual Report of the Queen's Printer. I would like to lay on the table that Annual Report together with the attachments required by statutes, and the Report of the Corporate Branch of the Department. MR. SPEAKER: Any other tabling of reports or ministerial statements? Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills; Questions. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q.C. (Leaderofthe OfficialOpposition) (RiverHeig hts): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, my question before the Orders of the Day is to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources and Environmental Management. On Friday he released to the Press a document called Guidelines Re The Manitoba Development Corporation. This is an unsigned document and I wonder if he can inform the House whether the contents of this document or the document itself has been seen by the Board of Directors of the Manitoba Development Corporation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources. HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Minister of Mines, Resources & Environmental Manage ment) (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, the document was presented to the Board of the Manitoba Development Corporation in September of 1973, not in the form in which the honourable member now has it. The italicized words are changes which were made by the Development Corporation when they sent the document back to my office. There is still part of the document which is under discussion but for the most

part it represents guidelines which have been accepted as a modus operandi between the Minister and the Manitoba Development Corporation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, I wonder then if the Minister will not confirm as a result of this document, which I assume expresses the thinking and the agreement of the Board, that in effect the government's medium range plan with respect to Manitoba Development Corporation

490 Februa ry 18, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SPIV AK Cont 'd) . is in fact to wind down and wind up the MDC ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the document will be available for the honourable member, for members of the public through the media, and I would say that it's possible that only one person would have derived the conclusions from the reading of the document that has been suggested by the Leader of the Opposition - - that is himself. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . SPIV AK: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder then how the Minister can justify the position in the document that no additional borrowing authority would be required by the MDC, and that in effect it would be able to operate on the repayment of the moneys loaned out when in fact the repayment of the moneys loaned out will have to repay the money borrowed by the MDC, in which case unless additional moneys . • . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The honourable member's debating the question. MR. SPIV AK: Mr. Speaker, I 'm not intending to debate the question. I want to . . MR. SPEAKER: Well the honourable member is. MR.

SPIV AK: I wonder then how the Minister can indicate to the House how the MDC will be able to operate if no additional borrowing authority is given to it by this House ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the statement that the honourable member is referring to refers to capital supply, and although the statement that he makes may be technically correct, that is not the understanding that was made in the formulation of the document. What the document says is that they would not need additional capital supply than the capital supply which has now been authorized.

Now if money is paid back and money is then again needed, there may have to be an additional request for capital supply, but what we have tried to agree to with the fund is that eventually it will operate at a certain level of capital supply and be able to sustain itself with that level. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . SPlVAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that capital supply cannot be reused again once it's been borrowed, I wonder then how the Minister can indicate how the fund would be in a position to operate with a $40 million loss against its operating profit. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I so indicated in my last answer. Now I will not vouch, Mr. Speaker, for the technical validity of the remarks that I have made or the remarks that have been made by the Leader of the Opposition. All that's intended is that eventually the Manitoba Development Corporation will have a limit of capital supply, that they should be able within that limit to operate in terms of making loans, receiving money and then reinvesting moneys which have been received by loan.

If that requires another capital supply statement, which the Minister of Finance has just indicated to me that it does not, but even if he, I, anl the Leader of the Opposition are wrong, in principle what we are saying is that they should be able to operate without continuing to add additions to the amount of capital supply they have. As to the $40 million loss that they have, obviously, Mr.

Speaker - and this is not something that we have included as being a term of reference of the Manitoba Development Corporation - if the corporation loses money and therefore impairs its capital supply, that will have to be dealt with, but we do not set forth that as being one of their guidelines. We would hope that the operations result in self-sustaining activity. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr.

Speaker, this question could be well asked of every Minister so I'll ask the question of the First Minister and would take from his response that it is for every department of government. Is the government assisting in any material way the efforts of dissident civil servants who are trying to form another union which would supplant the MGEA? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier)(Rossmere): Well, Mr. Speaker, if I heard the question completely, and I believe I did, the answer is negative. MR . G. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Speaker, I ask the First Minister, then why is Mr.

Jerry Fast of the Urban Development group of the Cabinet Planning Secretariat using office space, government time, government stationery and government postage meter to further the

February 18, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. G. JOHNSTON Cont'd) ..... aims of his group? MR . SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, not having seen the documents in question I would have to take the question as notice. It's always possible that there is such activity going on but it may well be improper in every respect. We'll have to check. 491 MR . G. JOHNSTON: I thank the Premier for taking the question as notice. A final question. Will he take disciplinary action against the person that I mentioned if the charge is found provable ? I have the proof. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, until the matter is checked out it really rests as a hypothesis. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. James. MR . GEORGE MINAKER (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. In view of the release of the Guidelines to the media on Friday, there was a

section that indicated that any expansion to a corporation or a company that already had a loan, that it would require approval of the Minister. I would like to ask the Minister if the Cabinet has approved the $50 million expansion for CFI. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I believe I was asked yesterday whether we were considering an expansion of Churchill Forest Industries and I believe that I answered the question that we were not, that all that I was aware of was $3.8 million for a new boiler. I have stnce, Mr.

Speaker, received a letter from Churchill Forest Industries Board dealing with a matter which could fall into the category that the honourable member is referring to. I haven't yet gone over the letter but it is not something which the Manitoba Development Corporation would be dealing with. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. James. MR . MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, another question to the Minister. Would this be a major expansion in the order of $50 million that you are referring to: MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I haven't read the letter as yet. MR . MINAKER: Mr.

Speaker, one more question. If the CFI assets are transferred or sold to a new Crown corporation . . . MR . SPEAKER: Order please. The question is hypothetical in that sense. MR . MINAKER: I'd like to reword that. When the CFI assets are transferred to a new Crown corporation or sold, will the new corporation have the same tax concessions with the ... ? MR. SPEAKER: The question again is hypotheticaL The Honourable Leader of the Opposition state his point of order. MR . SPIVAK: Yes, on a point of order.

It has already been announced by the govern ment that such a transfer will take place and so therefore I cannot at this point, or I would have to quarrel with you on the question of it being, you know, hypothetical. It has already been announced by the government that such a transfer will take place. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. James. MR . MINAKER: Mr.

Speaker, when the transaction takes place that was announced by the government, with the new Crown corporation taking over assets or buying them, will the new corporation receive the same tax concessions with the Town of The Pas as the present CFI has ? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the matter is under consideration both as to the same or additional -- both as to whether they receive any concession at all or whether the corporation pays full taxes to The Pas. That is a matter that we are presently seeking advice on. MR , SPEAKER: The Honourable L<�ader of the Liberal Party. MR . I.H.

ASPER (Leader of the Liberal Party)(Wolseley): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question's to the Minister for Consumer Affairs. Does the Minister expect a 10 percent rise in the price of bread, the retail price of bread, in March as has been predicted or has beenannounced, I suppose, by Peter Wygand, the President of the Bakery Council of Canada ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, I believe that whether or not I expect an increase in the price of any commodity, it is not properly a matter for me to deal with in the Legislature until

492 February 18, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. TURNBULL Cont'd) •.... such time as the price actually does go up. MR. AS PER: Well, Mr. Speaker, the question was anticipatory and I repeat it another way. Does the government intend to take any action at all to prevent this price rise which has been announced? MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Speaker, in the past the government has taken action to attempt to investigate the justification for price increases so far as they affect bread prices, and although I will not anticipate any future action by the government, I just refer the Member from Wolseley to that prior action of the government. MR. ASPER: Well, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister, my question is: Why did the Minister set up a bread price inquiry of some sort when he took office, and apparently disband it or at least have it not report to us ? MR. TURNBU LL: Mr.

Speaker, the reason for setting up the inquiry under the Trade Practices Act was to examine whether or not the then proposed increases in bread prices were justified. I recall that the industry at that time last summer announced a 6-cent rise for a 24-ounce loaf of bread. As a result partly of the establishment of the inquiry and meetings with industry representatives, the increase in the bread went up but only up 3. 8 to 4 cents. In other words, the increase here was less than the increase generally across Canada and particularly in major centres such as Winnipeg. MR " ASPER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

In the light of the Minister's answer and in the light of the questions that were raised on Thursday and Friday in the House, does the Minister intend to take any action to investigate, in advance of them happening, the already announced rises in the price of milk, eggs and land and houses in Manitoba? MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Speaker, as I have said before in the House, the investigation of price increases, I think, may be a useful exercise but I find investigations such as is conducted by the Food Prices Review Board to be of less consequence than it might be if the investigation were undertaken for the purposes of establishing some effective control. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J. ENNS (Lake side): Mr. Speaker, through you I direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. There has been a considerable amount of discussion with respect to future marketing plans in the milk industry.

My question to the Minister is: Will the milk producers of this province be given an opportunity to voice their approval or disapproval of any proposed plan by means of a vote? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, the subject matter is currently under discussion with the various groups in the industry, and a policy statement will be issued when we have arrived at one. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, for clarification, a supplementary question.

Is the part of the subject matter that's under further consideration the question of whether the producers should have a vote? MR. USKIW: It's whether or not we should move towards a producer marketing board for manufactured milk, and how that relates to the production, distribution and consumption of fluid milk. MR. ENNS: My final supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister then just confirm for me - - he is not clear in his own mind whether or not the producers should have an opportunity to voice any . • . MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The question in that sense is out of order; the honour able gentleman knows it. The Honourable Member for Rhine land. MR. ARNOLD BROWN (Rhineland): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Health and Social Development. Then will the guaranteed annual income scheme be signed ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. SAUL A" MILLER (Minister of Health and Social Development) (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, when it is signed I'm sure the honourable member will hear about it. There's no firm date set yet. MR. BROWN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct my question to the same Minister. How many families are anticipated to be under the annual income ? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, all of these details will be announced at the time of the

February 18, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. MILLER Cont'd) .. ... formal signing. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. 493 MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russell): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Through you I'd like to direct a question to the Attorney-General, and I would like to ask the Attorney-General if the Chairman of the Law Reform Commission when he was speaking to the Legal Society meeting in Minaki, was he voicing the opinio n of the Law Reform Commission in his statements at that meeting? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I'm sure that he was only speaking his own particular opinion at the time. MR. GRAHAM: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Could the Minister ascertain whether or not the expenses of the Chairman were paid by the Law Reform Commission? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR . FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Honourable Minjster of Labour, Mr. Speaker. Has the Minister received a report from the committee he was going to set up at least two years ago to study the building codes and inspection procedures of same in Manitoba? ¥R.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR . PAULLEY: I don't precisely recall establishment of a committee, Mr. Speaker, but I want to indicate to my honourable friend that the responsibilities for this inspection were taken over by the Department of Labour from the Department of Municipal Affairs and is functioning quite well in performing the service for all communities desiring same in the Province of Manitoba, and in addition to that, Mr.

Speaker, we adopted supplement 5 of the National Building Code to consider the advisability of buildings being so constructed that the handicapped may have free access to them. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR . J. PAUL MARION (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct my question to the First Minister. Was the First Minister expounding a government plan when he commented on the advisability of setting up a satellite community to ease the development pressure on the fringe areas of Winnipeg? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I was addressing a group of municipal representatives from the Winnipeg area and surrounding outer zone municipalities, and inviting them to ponder and comment on the relative merits of the concept of satellite towns. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR . MARION: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the First Minister. Have there been studies carried on, commissioned by the government and carried out to seek whether or not the advisability is there for setting up a satellite city? MR . SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, not full scale studies although there may well be some that have been conducted in some of the urban industrialized areas of Canada and the United States, but their staff has been asked to do some research in this respect. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. AS PER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister for Health and Social Development.

May we take it from his preceding remarks a few moments ago that the Government of Manitoba does not have any plan of altering or dropping its guaranteed annual income program, notwithstanding the decision by the Government of Ontario to drop its plan. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. SAUL A. MILLER (Minister of Health and Social Development) (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, the plan, the experiment in Manitoba is a joint Canada-Manitoba experiment and it will be going forward.

I cannot give the information requested because the Government of Canada is part of this and I feel that any statements made should be made after the Federal Government has signed the agreement with Manitoba and a joint statement can then be made. MR . ASPE R: To the same Minister, Mr. Speaker. Does the Minister, or will he indicate whether he intends to or has already contacted his Ontario counterpart to discover the reasons why Ontario has dropped the program using the excuse, or the statement at least, that a better use could be used for helping the poor with the money. MR . MILLER: Mr.

Speaker, I don't know where the Honourable Leader of the Liberal

494 February 18, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. MILLER Cont'd) ..... Party gets his information. The fact is that the Federal Government was interested in one experiment. The decision was to go with the Manitoba experiment. It's been worked on for the last two years to meet the federal criteria. Both federal and provincial people have been involved in the design of the project, the evaluation techniques that will be developed, and this is a joint program.

The Ontario program was one that was still in its conceptual stage and in the light, I think, of the Manitoba experiment being so far advanced, the Federal Government simply felt that it would go with the one program. MR. ASPER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Has Manitoba's estimate of expense, as was the case in Ontario, doubled since the original conception? MR . MILLER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I can't answer that; I don't know what the original estimate may have been. Again, the costs that we anticipate will be indicated when the agreement is signed and is made public. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIV AK: Yes, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Health and Social Development. It relates to the guaranteed annual income program and my understanding that very soon this agreement will be signed by the Federal Government and the Provincial Govern ment.

I wonder if the Minister can indicate to the House whether he's going to be prepared to table in this House the information gathered by the working group who studied this matter in preparation for this final agreement, the studies of the areas and the studies of the income levels and the recommendations. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR . MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I'd have to take that question as notice.

I'm not quite sure what is involved in the nature of those studies, to what extent the Federal Government is involved in them, since it's not simply a Manitoba province study, it's a federal study as well. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIV AK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Industry and Commerce and I assume that he is the correct Minister. If not, I'd like to be directed to the correct one. And this deals with the pensioners' program, pensioners' housing program. Is that through the Ministry of Industry and Commerce? The grants on the PEP programs?

I wonder if the Minister can indicate whether with respect to the pensioners' program, which I understand is under PEP, that the matters dealing with pensioners' requests for the north were processed through Northern Affairs rather than the Department of Industry and Commerce? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Brandon East): Well, Mr.

Speaker, the PEP Program I should mention has a very small staff and has attempted to utilize the services of existing personnel in various departments depending on the type of program, whether it's a program dealing with local school boards, this would be handled through the Department of Education, a program dealing with local hospital boards, this is handled through the Department of Health. It would only be natural, therefore, that dealings with people in the north could be handled through the Department of Northern Affairs but I would, Mr.

Speaker, take it as notice to give the honourable member a more complete answer. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, on Friday, February 15th, the Member for Virden asked me a question about the provision of Hansard to members of the Legislature. I think shortly after I inquired about the provision of Hansard that the member and all members here received copies of Hansard bringing them almost up-to-date. I'm advised that as of today Hansard is up-to-date. The Member for Virden also wanted to know what the reasons were for not receiving Hansard.

The reasons were simply that the machinery in the Queen's Printer, namely the collator and the cutter, encountered mechanical difficulty. In addition to that the Office of the Queen's Printer had to deal with peak loads at the same time as they were required to prepare Hansard. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR . ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Today the

February 18, 1974 495 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. ENNS Cont'd) ..•.. Manitoba Packers paid the Manitoba pork producers 47 cents a pound for their hogs. Today the Japanese packing plant paid the same pork producers 34 cents for the same pork. My question to the Minister is: whose interest did he have in mind when he signed that three-year contract, the Japanese consumer or the Canadian consumer or the Manitoba pork producer? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I don't know whether it's worthy of an answer because the honourable member knows that the Government of Manitoba is not party to any agreement with respect to the sale of any product, so· I really think the question is out of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. ENNS: I'm happy-! didn't particularly hear you ask for help but I assume now that the .. . MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR. ENNS . . . Minister of Agri culture will rule on the eligibility of questions. MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR. ENNS: My question to the Honourable Minister, a supplementary question, is: can he confirm the prices that I quoted? MR.

USKIW: No, Mr. Speaker, I have no idea at what price pork is selling to anyone here in Manitoba or to the producers of Ontario or to anyone in any part of the world, other than what is recorded in the daily newspapers. MR. ENNS: A supplementary question. Every day the pork producer knows exactly what Manitoba packers are paying him. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Question please. MR. ENNS: My question is: what is the Japanese packer paying the Manitoba producer for his pork? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, there isn't one producer who would have knowledge of that kind in that the Manitoba Pork Producers 1 Marketing Board is not able to give that kind of information out to anybody with respect to sales to Canada Packers, Swifts, Burns, 0. K. Packers or the Japanese firm in question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health and Social Development.

Is the government considering giving emergency assistance to the Day Care Development Committee which has had to, or is threatened with closing the doors of the Day Care Centre at St. Matthews, or emergency assistance to the Family Bureau's Home-Finding Day Care Service, to they won't have to cancel both these programs? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I didn't quite catch the last question. What I thought I heard was "War Emergency Services". MR. AXWORTHY: . . . repeat the question.

There are two programs that are threatened to be cancelled; one is the Day Care Centre operating out of St. Matthews Church, the second is the Family Care Home-finding Service presently operated by the Frunily Bureau. Both are forced to cancel these services because of lack of funds. Is your Department prepared to help them ? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I cannot say that the Department is prepared to help them. In the first case I think the request was made and I believe the Department did decline. In the second one, I can take your question as notice and report back to the House. MR. AXWORTHY: A supplementary, Mr.

Speaker. Can the Minister indicate to this House whether he intends to bring forward at this Session a comprehensive program for family care in the Province of Manitoba so these problems won't continue to exist ? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, that of course is a matter of policy, but I can indicate to the member and others as well as the public, who I am sure is interested. The moment we have come to some understanding with the Federal Government with regard to the cost-sharing and funding of day care programs that's when Manitoba will move. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr.

Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Industry and Commerce. Could he advise whether there have been any meetings in 1974 of the Manitoba Energy Council? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce.

496 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Speaker. February 18, 1974 MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could advise the House how frequently the Council has met in 1974 and if the minutes of those meetings will be available to the members of the Legislature. MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, the meeting dates of the Council are not fixed at any particular frequency. We meet as the requirements of the day demand. However, the minutes of the Council I would consider to be the same as interdepartmental memoranda and therefore not subject to tabling in this House. However, Mr.

Speaker, I can advise members of the House that we are now preparing a document on the energy demands of the province in the future, in the past, plus information on energy supply, energy problems facing the Province of Manitoba, and I would hope that as soon as that material is available it would be published in this House. Having said that, any recommendations of the Council go to the government for decision by government. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could advise the House what staff the Energy Council has or what staff they draw on for this purpose. MR . EV ANS: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

The Department of Industry has an Energy Branch which services the Manitoba Energy Council, and there are people working very hard, I can assure you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, last week, I forget the date, the Leader of the Opposition was asking whether a patient could request a pharmacist to dispense a higher-priced drug even though the physician had not indicated that substitution could occur or should occur. The answer is no, Mr. Speaker.

The patient can, of course, ask his physician, the prescribing physician, that a particular brand of medication should be dispensed, and the physician, if he agreed and felt the same way, would indicate that by writing "no substitution" on the prescription. But it's left to the physicians themselves who in the final analysis should make that decision. With regard to the Member for St. Boniface, I believe it was -y es - asked a question with regard to the drug tetracycline and some newspaper reports from eastern Canada, and he asked whether the drug tetracycline is in the formulary. The answer is yes.

And I want to state this: The Drug Standards and Therapeutics Committee of Manitoba reaffirmed what has been common knowledge among the medical profession for many years, and I quote from the formulary itself that "Tetracycline may interfere with dental and scalpal development. They should not be prescribed during pregnancy.

Patients with obstructive urinary tract disease should not be treated with tetracycline since its anti anabolic effect leads to increased blood urea and possible uremic symptoms in patients with reduced renal function, real and hipatic failure are absolute contrary indications as is the history of allergy to tetracycline." So, Mr. Speaker, the information is well-known to the medical profession and to the Pharmacy Association of Manitoba. And now everybody knows that and now you're all experts equally with me. But I am very impressed with the information which is given in our formulary. Mr.

Speaker, while I'm on my feet, the Member for St. Boniface asked regarding a medical health officer position which is vacant in Dauphin, and I believe the Member for Swan River asked a question with regard to Swan River. I am advised that the positions have been advertised and that applications are being interviewed - or applicants, rather, are being inter viewed. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . SPIVAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the Minister for his answer and I want him to confirm, then, so that I understand it - I think there may have been an error in his explanation - that it is illegal for a druggist to sell or for a patient to buy a drug prescribed by a doctor if it is in those cases of drugs that are substitutable, unless the physician has said no other substitute. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR . MILLER: That's right.

If the physician does not write "no substitution", then the formulary which comes into play will -- then the pharmacist is required to dispense the drug which is indicated in the formulary itself, because they are interchangeable. MR . SPIVAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker. And then he would confirm that a person who wants

February 18, 1974 497 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SPIVAK Cont'd) ....• the freedom to purchase the drug prescribed by the physician is not going to have the liberty to do so in those cases. MR . MILLER: The individual has the freedom to ask his doctor to prescribe and to write "no substitution" and if the doctor doesn't agree with the patient, then that is between the patient and the individual. MR . SPIV AK: Mr.

Speaker, if the physician has prescribed a drug but has not put on the prescription "no other substitute" and that drug is on one of the lists that is substitutable, it means that the person does not have the freedom to purchase that drug. MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR . MILLER: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

The doctor knows that the formulary is, and if the doctor writes a particular drug he is well aware of the fact that because the formulary is in existence then drugs are interchangeable; therefore if the doctor simply writes a certain drug he knows very well that the pharmacist will resort to the formulary and dispense the interchangeable drug. If the doctor feels in his wisdom that he wants a particular brand, he will so indicate and no substitution will take place, and if the patient requests a particular brand, then it's up to him and the doctor to determine whether or not no substitution should take place.

MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. STATEMENT MR. EARL McKELLAR (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, I would like the permission of the House to make a statement. (Agreed) It's uncontroversial. Very pleasant. There's no drugs involved. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. MR . MCKELLAR: Mr. Speaker, it's with great pleasure that I announce this afternoon the winners of the British Consols Trophy on Saturday evening: a rink which comes from Glenboro, Souris, and represented by myself in the Legislature here; and also to inform the members here where Glenboro is.

It's on No. 2 Highway in case you happen to be going west some time, one of the most prosperous parts of Manitoba and, Mr. Speaker, it's with great pride because in 1938 a rink from Glenboro skipped by Ab Gowanlock and had curlers Bud Cartmell and the two McKnight brothers at that time, and I can remember that rink so well -- and I'm not that old either but it's 1938 -- and they did win the British Consols and went on to win the Macdonald Brier and represented the Province of Manitoba very well.

Now 36 years later in the year of 1974, a rink from Glenboro has also won the British Consols, and I know when they go to London, Ontario, two weeks from today, March 4th, that they will be successful because of the confidence of the farmers, which I represent, In their judgment. The skip, Don Barr, whom we've all heard of and read about in the papers even though Jack Matheson doesn't believe it in the Winnipeg Tribune, Don Barr was the skip all during the playdowns, their zone playdowns and during the Consol playdowns this past week at the Arena.

And Don farms at Stockton, Manitoba and is a young man, and also a good shortstop during the summer months. The third man, I think most of us are familiar with Dan Hyrich, and Dan farms at Belmont, Manitoba, and also is a good ballplayer too and is an all-round athlete, and I'm sure that the name Dan Hyrich will be heard of many times in the future in the curling fraternity. Jack Fraser, the second man, farms at Stockton too, just outside of Glenboro, and is an excellent curler and also is an umpire by trade during the summer months, so that's his ...

Now the lead, Jim Thornborough, who was brought up and raised in Glenboro, is a lawyer and now presently residing in the constituency of Brand on West. He works with the firm Potter and Belecki in Brandon, and curled very good all week. Now to the members here this rink, I am sure, will do justice for the people of Glenboro which we're all proud of, and also for the people of Manitoba which they're going to represent on March 4th in London. And I do want to wish them well on behalf of everyone here in this Legislature. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR . G. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I also would like to ask for leave to make a non controversial statement. (Agreed) Well, I notice the headline that my honourable friend

498 February 18, 1974 STATEMENT (MR. G. JOHN STON C ont 'd) . . . . . sitting beside me here, it says, "Obviously the year of the farmer," and of course the sportswriter's referring to curling. But I would remind that sportswriter that the flourishing towns and cities of rural Manitoba may be somewhat rural-oriented but they're not exactly farmers. A MEMBER: What's wrong with being farmers? MR. G. JOHNSTON: Nothing wrong with being farmers but would you ask four beautiful girls who looked like that to go out on to a tractor?

I'm referring, of course, to the Mer line Darbyshire rink of Portage la Prairie whose average age is about 24 or 25 years of age, and along with third, Marg Marsh, and second, Susan Dahl, and lead Pat McCaughin, they will undoubtedly be one of the finest representative ladies rinks that Manitoba has ever sent to the Women's Bonspiel for all of Canada which will take place February 24th and March 3rd at Victoria. ORAL QUESTIONS cont 'd MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR . GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question may not be non-controversial, I'm not too sure.

I would like to ask the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources at what point in time will the Manitoba Development Fund obtain from the Community Economic Development Fund the moneys that have been advanced to cover the operating expenses of the Community Economic Development Fund? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: I don't know, Mr. Speaker. MR. GRAHAM: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. If and when that occurs will it be by ministerial directive? MR. GREEN: I don't know, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. MARION: Mr.

Speaker, I direct my question to the Honourable the Minister of Health. Does the government concur with the proposal announced at the Health Ministers' Conference held in ottawa last week whereby foreign-trained doctors would be banned as immigrants in Canada? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, as honourable members are aware, I did not attend that conference because I felt I couldn't get away. I haven't seen the details of the discussion itself; however, I do know that the

interpretation, the very narrow

interpretation placed on it by the member is incorrect. I don't think it is a banning of immigrant doctors but rather there should be a control with the idea that if a province does require doctors to be brought in from other countries because of dislocations within the province or because inability within the province to have doctors in certain parts of the province, that will not be denied. I think they were addressing themselves to the larger issue of at what point in time should immigration be examined in the light of the increase in the enrollment in the various medical colleges across the country. MR. MARION: Well, Mr. Speaker, if my

interpretation is incorrect I wonder if the Minister would nonetheless advise whether or not he intends on pursuing the matter with the Federal authorities? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, as far as Manitoba is concerned, if we need doctors and we cannot get them from Canada, we will get them from the U.K. or wherever else they can - -o r the United States - -w herever else they can be gotten, and I'm referring now to the problem which is faced in certain regions of Canada where the number of doctors is out of kilter with their needs.

In other words, there may be too many in one c:entre and not enough in another, and if the doctors depart, for example, in the Dauphin region and we need a Medical Health Officer, then it's my intention to get him whether it has to be through immigration or through any other means. That certainly is the policy that Manitoba and I know other provinces will follow. MR. MARION: A final supplementary, Mr.

Speaker, and as much as the Minister has the matter under advisement I wonder, can the Minister advise whether or not he would endorse the quota system with respect to the disparity of supply of doctors in the urban centres versus the rural areas?

February 18, 1974 ORAL QUE STIONS MR. MILL ER: Is the honourable member referring to a quota system with regard to immigration? 499 MR. MARION: ... clarification, Mr. Speaker? No, with respect to a quota system in an urban area. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, that opens up a very interesting, you know, an interesting concept and an interesting dimension which I would really like to hear the member· expound upon when we discuss this matter, because this really has great implications and I would be most interested in hearing the members' views when we get to my Estimates. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone -- Rhineland, I'm sorry. MR. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct my question to the Mi ni ster of Mi nes and Natural Resources. Does the Mi nister intend to move and relocate elsewhere the building owned by the MDC known as St. Jeans Sportswear? MR. SPEA KER: The H'Jnourable Mi nister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I know of no Manitoba Development Corporation inclination in that regard but I wouldn't say that it doesn't exist because I don't follow the day to day activities of the corporation with regard to any of its commercial enterprises. MR.

SPEA KER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Mi nister of Mines and Natural Re sources and Environmental Management. It relates to the questions already put by the Member for Birtle-Russell with respect to the directive that the Provincial Auditor referred to in the Manitoba Development Corporation statement, in which he indicated that there was a minister ial directive that the operating costs of the Community Economic Development Fund be borne as an expense of theManitobaDevelopment Corporation.

I wonder if the Minister can cite the authority on which the mi nisterial directive was based. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mi nes. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, that particular directive was made some time ago; I believe it took place in the last statement of the Community Economic Development Corporation, and I think, Mr. Speaker, that all that has occurred is that the board, with the request of the Minis ter, has agreed to make that allocation. I'm not able at this moment to indicate the re ference that my honourable friend is asking for nor do I admit that such a reference is necessary. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, if no reference is needed, then of course we might as well close this Legislature up. I now put to the Minis ter a question: I wonder if he can cite the authority on which the mi nisterial directive was given saying that the expenses of the Community and Economic Development Fund were to borne by ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Contrary to procedures the honourable member is asking a question. Beauchesne's Citation 171,

Section (m): "It is contrary to ask a question which asks of a legal proposition such as an

interpretation of the statute of Minis ters' own powers, etc" The question is out of order. Would the honourable member like to rephrase it? MR. SPIVAK: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm not asking the individ ual, the minister opposite for a legal opinion. I'm asking him to city the authority on which a ministerial directive was given. MR. SPEAKER: That's precisely what I said, "Interpretation of a statute of ministers' own powers?" The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: I believe that when the Development Corporation appeared before commit tee last year, that particular matter was indicated.

I have also indicated how the question arises . If that makes the honourable member feel that there is no longer any need for the Legislature, then I suggest that he apply that to himself, not to the rest of us. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Mi nister could inform this House under what basis a ministerial directive was given allowing funds to be transferred and expenses to be transferred from one corporation to another? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I've already indicated that that is the manner in which that has occurred.

If the honourable member feels that that is in some way improper, he can deal with that in the ways that are allotted to him in this House and without. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for. Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Mi nister of Health and Social Development in his capacity as the Minister responsible for Housing. Does he plan to outline to this House the objectives and organization and funding of the proposed new rural housing

500 February 18, 1974 O RAL QUESTIONS (MR. AXWOR THY cont'd) ... agency as announced by two officials of the Manitoba Housing Corporation last Friday? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Health. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I don' t think they announced the program; they were postu lating on the possibility of programs and the fact that if a program were launched they have the legal authority to become involved in it. MR.· AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I really don' t understand the Minist er's answer. What I am saying is, is this in fact a government program to anno unce this housing agency or not? MR. MILLER: Mr.

Speaker, whether the member understands or not, what I'm saying is that a program has no t been announced, and what the members or the staff of MHRC were discussing were the possibility of such a program. If such a program does come into being, certainly it will be announced and details will be made known . MR. AXWOR THY: Mr. Speaker, then one final question . Does the Mini ster plan to announce such a program? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public In surance Corporation. HON. BILLIE URUSKI (Mini ster responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corpora tion) (St. George): _Thank yo u, Mr. Speaker.

Last week the Hono urable Member from St. Boniface asked me a question which he terms "astronomical increases" and I believe he quoted the percentage of 650 percent in the rates on gasolin e tankers in rural areas. The basic pre mium on a gasoline tanker in the rural area has been increased by $6 . 00 on a 1971 tanker with a gross vehicle weight of 24, 000 lbs. The old premium was $63. 00 and the 1974 premium was $69. 00. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING (St. Vital): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

Can he tell us if the governmen t has issued a directive to the Manitoba Telephone Sys tem pro hibiting the System from screen ing applicants for service? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to have the opportunity to deal with this question . I must say, Mr. Speaker, that as long as I've been Minist er responsible for the Telephone System, there has been no directive issued to the System which would ask them to curtail screening applicants for credit in order that the applicant may receive telephone ser vice.

I might also say, Sir, that the amount of uncollectibles, as men tioned in the Free Press editorial of February 16th, has been proportionate to the total revenue of the System over the last five or six years , and that the System has continued and I assume will continue to screen applicants for credit who wish to have telephone service installed. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rather think I ought to have given notice to the Mini ster of Health and Social Development and I apologize for no t having done so. In the light of that, Mr.

Speaker, the question relates to a statement , an announcement rather, by the government of On tario that was referred to earlier in the question period, in which the government there, the Minister . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I wonder if the hono urable member would consider re phrasing his question . We do not ne ed what is going on in On tario and Manitoba for the pro cedures at the momen t. The Hono urable Leader of the Liberal Party . MR. ASPER: Yes , Mr.

Speaker, the question is: Will the Mini ster ask his counterpart in On tario and report to this House on the information he obtains on the reason, or rather the evidence that the Province of Ontari o uncover ed which established (

a) that the costs of guaran teed annual income pilo t programs have doubled; (

b) that the studies indicate that you can do better for poor people through ot her programs; (

c) that no experiment was ne eded any longer because the U. S. experiments had been made available and data could be achieved from them. The question is, will the Minister ask his counterpart in Ont ario for that information that led him to that conclusion, and present it to the House? MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, if the honourable member wants to pick up the phone and phone On tario, I think he can do it, as a matter of fact with no charge to himself; that's the privilege he has as a member of the House. But if, Mr. Speaker, the experiment referred to is on e that was designed with the Federal Government, for Manitoba, it is not identical to any

February 18, 1974 501 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. MILLER cont'd) .. .. other program designed anywhere else, it is quite different than what was talked about in Ontario. I don't know why Ontario took the position it did; maybe the Federal Government decided it didn't want to go along. But what we have here is a suggestion by the Leader of the Liberal Party that somehow what Manitoba is entering is an expensive program of throwing money down the drain.

I can tell him that all of Canada will be watching this program, because from the design and the nature of it, we expect in Canada to learn an awful lot from the Manitoba experiment which would benefit not only Manitobans but Canadians as a whole. MR. ASPER: Is the Minister saying that he has no intention of obtaining the information from Ontario and reviewing his posi tion ? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. That question has been answered. The Honourable Mem ber for Minnedosa. MR.

DA VID BLAKE (Minnedosa): May I direct a question to the Mini ster responsible for the Public Insurance Corporation with reference to his answer to the previous question asked? I wonder if he would comment to the House or give an answer to the House on the in crease in rates on the mis-d elivery insurance that the bulk petroleum agents are paying. lt' s a liability insurance that has increased, I understand, from $10. 00 per vehicle up to somewhere in the neighbourhood of $90. 00 per vehicle. Would he care to give that percentage increase to the House? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, that type of coverage that the member is speaking about is optional coverage and can be purchased from any insurer that is in the market, but I can tell you that the increase on mis -delivery was as a result of the experience that we had in this field. MR. BLAKE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Would the rates under Autopac be comparable to the rates from the private insurance liability corporations? MR. URUSKI: If the member is referring back to the mis -delivery - is that what you're talking about? I'm not sure of his question. Yes. MR. SPEA KER: Orders of the Day.

The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Excuse me, Mr. Speaker. Did I hear the Minister responsible for Autopac to say that the rate on the insurance, liability insurance, on tankers, oil tankers had risen by approximately only 10 percent? MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister. MR. URUSKI: I quoted the rate for rural areas and the increase is roughly 9 1/2 percent. A MEMBER: 9 1/2 ? MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. Is it not a fact that rates have risen per truck from $10 ... MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable member' s placing the question in an argumentative context, saying it's a fact. . . MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, is it a fact that the rate ... Mr. Speaker, I'm simply asking, in the light of his statement that rates have generally risen by approximately 9 1/2 percent, how does he account for the fact that rates in the Dauphin area have risen from $10 per truck to $65 per truck - a 650 percent increase ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Auto Insurance Corporation. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I gather the member must be a little mixed up because the policy that the member is talking about is extension coverage which is not compulsory and an optional coverage that an owner may purchase or may not purchase and the increase in the rate of optional coverage for this particular case was based on experience. MR. SPEA KER: Orders of the day. The Honourable House Leader wish to proceed with second readings. Order, please. The Honourable House Leader wish to proceed with second readings? MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we want to proceed with the bills - on second readings.

502 February 18, 1974 ORD ERS OF THE DAY - GO VERNMENT BILLS MR . SPEAKER : Thank you. Bill No. 4. Pr oposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. Bi ll No. 5, proposed mo tion ... The Honourable Minister of Munici pal Affairs - The Honourable Member for Birtle Russell. BILL NO. 5 MR . . GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Sp eaker, when this bill was introduced for second reading by the Attorney-Gene ral I think that the reasons given by the Attorney-Ge ner al in his argument were quite apropos.

At this time in our history there are many people who are con cern ed about the fact tha t it is relatively simple for a man to leave his wife and children and hightail it for other parts or parts unknown and leave his family relatively destitute and make no attempt at trying to provide for the welfare of those that he has left. And in that res pect any action the Ministe r takes to try and alleviate the situation I think has to be cons idered quite seriously.

Th e strengthening of the Garnishment Act by the new sections tha t the Minister is adding will certainly give the courts more teeth, it will give those that are wishing and hoping to re coup some indemnity, a little better chance. But I think, Mr. Speaker , there is one thing that the Minister should take note of. That is the fact that the person tha t they are attempting to collect this money from in all likelihood is a person who is going to try and use any means pos sible to evade payment.

And the Minister in his state ment on second reading said that one of the reasons for strengthening th is at thi s time is to take some of the load off the department of Health and Social Development by taking the respons ibility off the state and placing it on the in dividual. But, Mr. Spe aker, I' m not too sure tha t the actions the Minister is taking in this res pect will in effect do that. In my own mind I can't be conv inced that this is what is going to happen . Mr.

Sp eaker, in his remarks, and I want to refer to what he said in Hans ard, I waited until w.e got Hansard. before I replied and I would like to quote some of the words of the Attorney Gene ral, he said, "In order , Mr. Sp eaker, to also provide some lightening of the burden upon the state where the state finds that because there are people within its juri sdiction that seem to want to chase or to maneuver out .of thei r respons ibility by not providing support, it places ad ditional burdens upon the public treasury. " I want to put forward for discussion purposes, Mr.

Speaker, the possibility that what the Minister is doing instead of lightening the burden on the state may place additional burdens on the state. At the present time under the Garnishment Act the formula for exemption from garnish ment has not been changed, it still remains a basic $10 0 , or 70 perce nt of the man' s earnings.

If a person is successful in obtaining a garnishment order on a person say who is earning a relatively small amount and the minimum does come only to $10 0, in an effort to take the wife and the family off the welfare rolls of the state by the support that is going to be garnisheed from the work er , will there be sufficient money taken by the court order to do that. And, Mr. Sp eaker , I doubt it. But then let me pose something else to you, Mr. Sp eaker. In obtaining tha t court order what then happens to the man who is presently working. He will only be allowed to keep $10 0 for his own personal use.

Basi cally he is a person who is evading the law now and is going to use any means possible to continue to evade it, and if he finds out that he can get $1 40 say from social assistance , would there then be the temptation for him to quit his jo b and go on to social assistance? In which case then, Mr. Sp eaker, instead of having just the wife and the family on welfare we will also have the husband. I think there is a very valid argument here, Mr. Sp eaker , and I think we should look at it very closely.

That the amount of exemption that is granted to the person whose wages are being garnisheed has to be cons istent and competitive with the amount that is available under social assistance or other means of livelihood. I think tha t the programs have to be dovetailed so that there is no encouragement given to that man to remove himself from the employment field and place himself on the welfare roll. I would like to hear the Minister of Health enter into thi s debate some time before the bill passes second reading and give us his

interpretations of what would happen if we do change the present formula for granting exemptions. I believe that the Minister should take thi s into consideration. I think that everyone here is concerned in such a manner tha t we want to see as many people working as is possible and we want to see an adequate standard of living

February 18, 1974 503 BILL 5 (MR. GRAHAM cont'd) .. ... provided for all our people, and that is why we have a social assistance program; but the two, the Garnishment Act and the Social Assistance Act have to have a sort of a relationship when it comes to the granting of exemptions under the Garnishment Act. I don't know whether the Minister considered this when they were drafting the proposed amendments to the Act.

If he didn't at that time I wish he would do so now, because we see that this question of garnisheeing wages and the responsibility of the state has taken different ap proaches in different jurisdictions, and it has been brought to my attention, Mr. Speaker, that in some other jurisdictions the state has assumed an added responsibility and said in effect that we will take over the responsibility of collecting the necessary assistailce rather than con tinuing to leave it on the indivi dual. And I think there is a psychological effect that is beneficial in that type of appJ;oach.

I think that an individ ual who is faced with the problem of another in dividual trying to catch up to him and collect money that is due, would not be nearly as worried about the probable courses of action that are open as he would be if it was the state that was trying to collect. I think if the state took that responsibility that I think you would find there would be fewer people try and evade their responsibility. And I would ask the Minister to take a look at what is happening in some of the other jurisdictions in respect to this. At the outset, Mr.

Sp eaker, when looking at this bill it looked like just a routine house keeping bill but I think if you look at the impli cations and the possibili ties of improving the law for the betterment of all of society that we have to look at all aspects of the Garnishment Act. When we do that, Mr. Speaker, I think that we can effectively provide a much better law which would be more humane and more effective and easier to administer; And if we do that then we in opposition I think have fulfilled a very proper role in pointing out to the Minister some of the ways in which we think this Act could be improved. Mr.

Sp eaker, I don't want to belabour the issue too much longer but I do note that when the Minister was speaking twice he mentioned, and I want to quote again from his remarks, he says "the second amendment to this act provides that a garnisheeing order will take precedence over other debts owed by the judgment debtor. The basic exemption of $100 per month allowed to the judgment debtor is the present situation.

" And again further on down he says, "it should be noted that where there is an order for maintenance or alimony the only exemption allowed to a judgment debtor is $100 per month without regard to other circumstances. The present rule set out in

Section 6 provides that 70 percent of the wages are exempt with a mini mum of 100 per month for a single person or a minim um of 165 per month for. a person with dependents." And it is Mr. Speaker, on the basis of that that I put forward the argument that maybe this should be reviewed. There is a second point that I want the Minister to consider, Mr.

Speaker, and this is something that is occurring in today's society that is becoming more and more prevalent as our human rights legislation has its effect on soci ety, and certain segments of society are ex pressing more and more their equality of opportunity in today's way of life. And I refer now to the question which the Minister hasn't even talked about in this bill, and that is the question of where the wife deserts the family and leaves the husband at home to look after the family. And I wonder, Mr.

Speaker, if there is any method, because it's not spelt out in this bill so far, where the husband who is at home looking after the family that is his responsibility as well as his wife, if there is any possibility that he can garnishee a portion of the wife's wages if she is doing the breadwinning and has in effect pulled out and left them?

I think there's more and more of this happening every day and I would like the Minister when he's closing debate to address himself to this problem as well, because I think it is very proper to look at this at the present time because I have had cases brought to my attention where the husband actually has had to quit his job , stay home and look after the family because his wife has pulled out and left him and he is left without the means of going out and earning a livelihood because he has taken the first responsibility of looking after the children.

If there is any way that we can change the legislation to cover that type of situation I think we should do so. So I would ask the Minister again to take consideration of that into effect when we're--if he will consider making further changes or amendments to the Act. With those few words, Mr. Sp eaker, I will let somebody else add their contributions at this time. MR. SPEAKE R : The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would merely formally say that the Liberal Pa rty caucus endorses the bill and congratulates the Attorney-General on bringing forward this

504 February 18, 1974 BILL 5 (MR. ASPER cont'd) .. .. . legislation, this very much needed legislation. Mr. Sp eaker, it's unfortunate that apropos of some comments that have been made over the past few weeks and certainly some that were made to me in a recent interview by a member of the media that the people who report us to the public rarely report on our points of agree ment. They rather, because it seems to be more controversial, more newsworthy report on only those issues that divide us. Here, Mr.

Speaker, is a pi ece of excellent legislation, en lightened legislation and legislation on which this House can speedily pass and congratulate the Attorney-General and his government for having brought in. It is a step and unfortunately it's the only step he can take under his constitutional authority. That is unfortunate because the problem he seeks to deal with is a profoundly distressing problem and he can only go so far be cause the Constitution of Canada is such that he can only legislate for Manitoba.

But those of us who have been in the law or the practice of effecting the rights of people who are separated, those of us who are concerned with the sole support family will know that this is probably the most frustrating aspect, the fact that a person is deserted, a spouse is irresponsi ble in his res responsibil ities to his offspring and to his wife and then may leave the province or may leave the jurisdiction and we, the public, wind up out of our sense of social responsibility having to discharge his responsibilities to his wife and children, simply because he's unavailable, simply because the legal mechanisms are too creaky, too antiquated to permit ease of access by the injured spouse in the family to the deserting husband or the divorced and separated husband.

Mr. Speaker, this bill goes some distance towards facilitating that remedy that we seek to make it easier, make it less expensive, less frustrating for the female who is deserted particularly to seek redress and obtain some kind of satisfaction from the deserting husband. There is a problem and it's not a provincial problem; it's a problem that I would urge the Attorney-General to raise with his counterparts in the other ten provinces. That is where we really go with this problem.

Why should our welfare rolls and our taxpayer dollars be swelled by having to pic k up the cost of or the responsibilitie s, the financial cost when the husband deserts and absents himself from the jurisdi ction. And that's basically what I'm sure the Honourable the Minister for Health and Social Development will say, that we, the innocent, who haven't wronged another person are being required to pay and discharge his obligations to the innocent.

That's acceptable when he's indigent but when he is simply a dodger, aJi evader, then he becomes one of the lowest elements in society, a heartless, cruel person who not only shows the disregard for his wife and children but shows the contempt for society who has to pic k up his responsibilities. So any bill such as this that gives the state and gives the injured party an opportunity to facilitate collection is welcome. Mr.

Speaker, I would urge the Attorney-General not to rest his efforts at this bill, and that would include the convening of a national conference of Attorneys-General to try to reach agreement, to try to reach agreement with the Government of Canada that the state once having assumed the responsibility and having cleaned up our legislation to make easy garnishment in those circumstances, that we ask the other provinces to co-operate, that the reciprocal enforce ment of Judgments Act which is referred to in here be broadened, because, Sir, the Legislatures of the other provinces and perhaps even ours inadvertently are protecting the deserting husband by shielding him from the full weight of the law that he would face if he stayed in his own pro vince after he absconds or deserts.

And that's going to require interprovincial co-operation. It's going to require the Unemplo yment Insurance Com mission to let the Province of Manitoba and our courts know things that they won't do today, things that we can't get access to except through difficult, bureaucratic sometimes circuitous routes.

I suggest that if we all, and I'm sure all provi nces now must recognize that we all have the same problem, are prepared to strip down the barriers of provincial law that protect the husband from fulfilling his responsibilities in another provi nce, responsibilities that if he were in our province we could force him to ful fill; and that means full disclosure of where he is working, that means putting a lien, a national lien on his Canada Pension Plan, on property acquired by him, in any jurisdiction in Canada. I can tell you, Mr.

Speaker, there are deserted wives and children in our province whose hus bands will live in the Yukon or Nova Scotia and be doing extremely well financially and quite capable of discharging their responsibilities to the deserted wife and children and the laws don't permit us to get to that person. And this is no fault of the Province of Manitoba or the Province of Ontario per se, it's a problem of our domestic law constitution. Mr. Spe aker, while commending the Attorney-General and offering him our full support

February 18, 1974 505 BILL 5 (MR. ASPER cont'd) .. ... for this bill, I would urge that he search for those novel solu tions, ask the rest of the provinces to reconsider, to come up with better reciprocal enforce ment laws, and in that way the taxpayers of Canada whether they're in Manitoba or Alberta will be protected by the well-off, well-to-do deserter who is having his responsibilities discharged by the state. And with that as I say, Mr. Speaker, I would ask that this bill be given im medi ate passage so that we can get into Commi ttee to hear the Attorney-General a little further in Committee perhaps. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to move, seconded by the Member from Minnedosa, that we adjourn debate. MOTION presented and carried. BILL NO. 7 MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 7. Moved by the Honourable Minis ter of Labour, stands in the name of the Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, in rising to speak to this bill I would remind the House that it is some nine months since we dealt with a similar matter in cluded in Bill 55 at that time. Mr.

Speaker, Bill 55 died on the Order Paper and I would hope for the same verdict with this bill. However, I must say that with the passage of time my attitude has moderated somewhat and in the beginning let it be understood, Mr. Speaker, that for my

part I nor any member of our party object to a civil servant running for public office; provi ded, Mr. Speaker, as far as I'm personally concerned, that he defrocks himself of his position and he takes his chances as each and every one of us do at election time. Mr. Speaker, I say to you that he has always had this right. If his inclination is toward becoming an elected representative he must be a dedicated person. He should be prepared, Si r, and I say it again, to sacrifice everything for that purpose and particularly his position in the civil service.

The Mini ster told us the other day that this legislation is somewhat similar to our sister provinces. He never gave us any indi cation of what our sister provinces were doing and I demand of hi m to put the proof on the table. Let's see what the sister provinces are doing in this direction. I listened to the words of the Minis ter, Mr. Speaker, when introducing this bill and I agree with hi m that many of the sections are housekeeping sectrons and can of course be dealt with. However, Sir, his elaboration of contents of

Section 44 (1) substantiating its need in order to cast off the chains of tyranny - such nonsense . Extend the freedom of elec tion to those in public office. All of this, Mr. Speaker, is familiar oratory that we have had from the Minister down through the years, not only in this direction but in many others. Sir, that sort of talk is a lot of hogwash and the sooner he sweeps it out the better. --(Interjection)- Never mind. I learned it all from you. Mr. Speaker, I say again, a civil servant if he is willing to run for public office he has that right and always has had that right.

The Minister went to great length, Mr. Sp eaker, speaking of the inability of the present legislation to give that right, indi cating without saying it that we as legislators were preventing civil servants from running for public office. Here again I say it is utter nonsense, and he knows it is. What is wrong, Mr. Speaker, with the present system under which a civil servant may run for office ? Sir, MacKenzie King was a civil servant and he rose to become the Prim e Minister of this country. He was followed by Lester Pearson who went through the civil service.

Our present Secretary of State, Mitchell Sharp, came up through the ranks of civil service. And you know that great old man, that saviour of the world, Winston Churchill himself was a civil servant at one time, and he didn't need legislation like this to do it either. --(Interjection)--And they didn't need it. Mr. Speaker, last year I asked, and I do so again this year, in fact I demand of the Minister of Labour, to bring proof into this House that the civil service as a body want this kind of legislation. I have no doubt where they will stand, no doubt whatsoever.

He said the other day, if you will recall, that this matter was discussed in their meeting and it was lost by a margin of a couple of votes. I wonder where those people came from that took it up to that height and whether those people that voted for this sort of thing are the people that have come in under this regime. It's my understanding, Mr. Speaker, that a large majority, 5, 000 or more, have not expressed an opinion in this direction and 3, 000 more were against participa tion in legislative responsibility.

506 February 18, 19 74 BILL 7 (MR. BILTON cont'

d) In recent days, Mr. Speaker, what have we seen ? What have we seen in the headlines in the paper with all the turmoil that's going on or has been going on in the civil service ? What do we see, Sir? "An angry civil service," one headline. Another one: "The Poli ce Will Attend in Case of Trouble. " Sir, this is at a civil service meeting in which they're going to be dealing with their own problems. "The future life of the MGEA on the line, '·' is another head line, Mr. Speaker. Never in the history of this province I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, has such happenings gone on.

The civil servants. that have served this province loyally over the years and for generations, Sir, must be turning in their graves. Surely it must be getting down to them" And who brought it about? That man over there, the Minister of Labour. I demand of him - what and who brought all this on, Mr. Speaker? Certainly not by any actions of the members of this Legislature. I have a feeling, again I say, that some of the newcomers to the civil service oriented as the honourable member are pressing for this and pressing hard. In my opinion, Mr.

Speaker, as I have said before and will say again the civil servants of this pro vince hold a sacred trust to the people of the Province of Manitoba. With the change of govern ment from time to time they are the link, Sir, with the past and the hope for the future. I say to this government leave that preferred position alone. Keep the civil serVice out of politics. With regard to the contents of

Section 44, Mr. Speaker, and in particular the sub

section (

a) and subsection (

c) speaking or writing toward assisting a candidate, a political party and can expound material of which he has prior knowledge. Sir , this . •. MR. SP EAKER: Order please. MR. BILTON: ... is a sacred trust that that man has and he has no right to use it . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I would like to remind the honourable member we are dealing in principle with the bill not clause by clause. The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: I had a feeling you'd catch me on that, Mr. Speaker, but .. . MR. SPE AKER: Order please. MR. BILTON: Mr.

Speaker, in all sincerity who in his right mind would vote for this kind of material? The whole thing leaves me cold. And to think I have to get up again and plead the cause for the civil service and keep them out of politics again is a terrible thing. And I assure the Minister I'll do it next year and the year after. --(Interjection)--Yes, as I said to you the other day, you're going to divide them and you're going to ram it through whether they like it or not. And it'll be a sorry day for this province if you get away with it. Mr.

Speaker, is it the intent of this government or any government in the future with such legislation as this are going to develop a fortress of this building, that you're going to have to have a pass to come in? This situation as I see it will drag the civil service down into the political arena and surely the people of Manitoba will ultimately suffer.

Sir, it will no longer be known as the civil service, it will be an arrogant service, servant to the party bosses and long after these drum and fife boys have gone, long after they've gone and they serve their pur pose, the elite will come in and take over and then look out. They did it for 20 years in Saskat chewan, Mr. Speaker, and I plead that it not happen here. I plead that it not happen here. A MEMBE R : All right, Jimmy, when we get back in we might want to use it too, that's all right. MR. BILTON: By the lord Harry� Mr. Speaker, I appeal to every member of this House to read carefully this bill.

I want them to read it and speak out before it's too late. For my self, Sir, I have no intentions whatsoever of voting for this bill until those parts that I'm refer ring to have been eliminated. You know, Mr. Speaker, why all the hullabaloo? There were three civil servants ran in the last election, two NDP and one Conservative. There was no problem, no problem whatsoever. And I trust they're back on the job; I'm sure the two NDPers are. I call again, Mr. Speaker, of the Minister of Labour to put this decision in the hands of the civil service.

Let them tell us that they want this in this bill and then it would be our pur pose to see that their wishes are carried out--nothing more and nothing less. The decision should rest with them. I acknowledge, Mr. Speaker, what the First Minister had to say the other evening. It was news to him that there was any disruption amongst the civil servants or there were any problems. I would remind the First Minister, Mr. Speaker, that in 1969 when I defeated Mr.

Filuk, within a matter of hours he was appointed as the Executive Assistant to the Minister of Labour--the Minister of Highways, and within hours again he was riding herd on civil servants

February 18, 1974 507 BILL 7 (MR. BILTON cont'd) ... .. in that department up and down this province. And I, Sir, made a sp ecial trip to the City of Winnipeg and asked for an appointment with the First Minister and asked him personally to call a halt to it. I asked the First Minister to look around and get somebody to inform him what's going on in the Civil Serv ice, because what I am hearing is entirely different to what he is hearing. I find things in this direction, Mr. Sp eaker, uneasy.

The Minister of Labour said the other day that poss ibly the civil servants in Swan River area during the last election, he went on to say, "Jim's not a bad guy. " No doubt paraphras ing himself or som e oth er peopl e; no doubt he said it in jest, but, Mr. Sp eaker, he went on to say, "I should have probably had an investigation and fired some of thos e peop le. " Even though he may have said it in jest, how true may that be, the feeling of the Minister and other Ministers in the future, if this sort of thing go e s on. It concerns me, Mr.

Sp eaker, that a Minister of the Crown will use words idly like that with se veral thousand civil servants in the employ of this government. In Barrows last year, a little Indian settlement northeast of my constituency, Mr. Sp eaker, I go into an Indian shack and a half a dozen are gathered togeth er, and there's three people sitting there and they're there for the purpos e , they're there for the purpose of explaining to the people their rights, legal rights, housing rights and what have you; but basically, basically it was vote NDP in the next election. And they were on the payro ll of this provin ce, Mr.

Sp eaker, and they won that, they won that poll. I got 15 and they got 30, but what a terrible thing. How many more people are you going to have running around this province doing this sort of thing ? You know you' ve got an iron camp in Northern Manitoba right now with the peop le's money. How well I remember too, Mr. Sp eaker, how well I remember the Chairman of the Hog Marketing Board in Bowsman standing outs ide of the polling booth, demanding of peop le that they vote NDP, I must go down. The peop le gave them the back of their hand. And he was threaten ing those peop le, Mr. Speaker.

What has happened with him ? He sits here with a $20, 000 a year job in control of I don't know how many civil servants whos e destiny are in his hands. Mr. Speaker, I can se e a man going in to that man and saying, "I'm going to run in the next election on the Cons ervative ticket. " He'd get his job back? Not on your cottonpickin' life. These are the sort of things that this legislation will provide for, Mr. Sp eaker, and I want it avoided. This man, this man in control of civil servants, Sir. Are we moving in that direction with legislation of this kind? I am afraid that we are and I want to be no part of it.

Th is, Sir, this legislation allows what I am endeavouring to outline in a parochial way. A civil servant, Mr. Speaker, has the right to his private opinions, the master of his own destiny, and free to make his own choice po litically right now. But not with this. This right, Mr. Sp eaker, each and every one of us should se e to it whilst we're dealing with this bill that thos e rights are not impaired in any way. If we must have legislation in this manner, Mr.

Sp eaker, I agree, but let it be tempered with common sense and not this insidious approach put forward by the Minister of Labour that would cast aside the glorious past of this Civil Service, and God knows what it would be in the future to satisfy his selfish ends and comply with his dedication to so cial ism, repugnant to many many thousands of peop le throughout the Prov ince of Manitoba. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS : Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, se conded by the Honourable Member for Souris Killarney, that debate on this bill be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried.

BILL NO. 10 MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 10. The Honourable Member for . MR . PAULLEY : I wonder, Mr. Speaker, will you call Bill No . 12--or wait a minute, I'm sorry. Yes, Bill No. 10. MR. SPEAKER : Th e Honourable Member for Morr is. MR . WARNER H. JORGE NSON (Morr is) : For a moment, Mr. Sp eaker, I thought that the Minister of Labour was endeavour ing to pr event me from making a contribution to this bill by attempting to ... Mr.

Sp eaker, the amendment to the Margarine Act introduced by the Minister of Agriculture who, showing his usual contempt for the parliamentary syst em, has absented himself from his seat, as is normal when legislation dealing with his department comes before the House .

508 February 18, 19 74 BILL 10 (MR. JOR GENSON cont '

d) The bill before the House can be in no way characterized as a contentious bill at this time. There certainly was a time when the colouring of margarine assumed proportions of debate in this Chamber that rocked this place from year to year - the introduction of legislation intended to ban the colouring of margarine. And it only serves as an indication, Sir, how times will change and how events catch up with us in that which seemed critically important a few years ago suddenly disappears in importan ce. The legislation is intended to do two things.

First of all, it's intended to remove the colour ban on margarine; and secondly, it's going to change somewhat the content of butter fat in margarine, complying with directives that will be laid down by the Department .

I wonder if the Minister, however, could tell us whether when he does find it convenient to be in the House and reply, if he could tell us whether or not the particular amendments as contained in Clause 6 will comply with the Food and Drug Act which also has so me restrict ions in this particular sense, and if there is going to be any effort or if there are indeed contained in the legislation before us similarities in that which is contained in the Food and Drug Act federally and that v.hich is in the particular bill that is now before the House. Mr.

Speaker, the situation in the produ ction of butter these days is so vastly different from what it was just a decade ago that one would wonder if you're living in the same country. In previous years the surplus of butter that accumulated each year in this country took up a great deal of the ti me of the Min isters of Agriculture in ottawa and indeed of the Provinces of Quebec and Ontario, which were the two provinces remotely concerned about this particular aspect of the dairy industry.

Accumulations of butter pose a serious problem in disposal and millions of dollars have been spent in attempting to dispose of the surpluses that accumulated during those years. Perhaps it's significant to point out that the dairy industry of all parts of agriculture is the one that has been subject to a supply-management situation for many years ; the dairy indus try, because of the nature of the industry itself and because of health regulations required a cer tain amount of control and supervis ion on the part of governments.

But the health regulations spread themselves over into a greater portion of the dairy industry and it wasn 't long before government-appointed bodies took over the management and control of the dairy industry itself. I think iJ's significant, Sir, that the income coming from the dairy industry unlike most other industries, particularly in agriculture, has showed a steady decline over the years. In the Province of Manitoba itself the high point was reached in 1958 when a total of $25 million was derived from the production of dairy products.

That declined in 1968 to $23 million and it has been rising slowly ever since. Last year total income from dairying has risen from $23 million in 1968 to $31 million, or close to $34 million in 1973. That shows so mewhat of an in crease, an increase indeed of so me 22 percent and I think most of that can be attributed to an increase in pri ces rather than an increase in the total volume of dairy production. But on the other hand, Sir, and it's difficult to relate the total value of farm costs to one particular aspect of the industry, but I think that one could safely assume that it would be proport ionate.

During that same period, the increase in production on farms in Manitoba has gone up so me 24 percent, and I suppose it's reasonable to assume that the dairy industry bears a proportionate share of that increase . Perhaps, Sir, even more because the labour content in the produ ction of dairy products is perhaps higher than it is in other aspects of agriculture.

So the dairy farmer him self is, although on paper it may look as though his income is, higher relatively speaking - and I use that word advisedly when I'm speaking to honourable gentlemen opposite - his total volum e of income has not increased to the extent that other parts of the dairy industry has. In fact, Sir, according to the conference recently held in ottawa the Outlook Conference, on page 96 dealing with the butter si tuation in particular, indicate that the output of creamery butter is estimated at about 251 million pounds. That 's a decline of 40 million pounds or 14 percent from 1972 levels.

Domestic consumption of creamery butter is estimated at 290 million pou nds, and that's a decline of 27 million pou nds, or 9 percent from 1972 . Butter imports in the calen dar year 1973 were about 60(?) million pounds coming in from Australia, New Zealand and Ireland. Butter stocks in January 1, 1974 are estimated to be about 50 million pounds, an in crease of 20 million pounds from 1973 levels.

An indication, Sir, that, if the prognostications that come from the dairy people themselves and indeed the Chairman of the Milk Control Board in the Province of Manitoba are to be relied upon and I believe they are, this province and in deed this country could be in a serious shortage of dairy products within a few years if the present trends continue.

February 18, 1974 509 BILL 10 (MR. JORGENSON cont'

d) The difficulty, Sir, is the economic straightjacket that the dairy industry has been placed in by virtue of the explanations that I gave a few moments ago plus the difficulties in obtaining farm labour. That's one of the crucial problems in the dairy industry. There is a degree to which mechanization can be carried and I think that has been, had almost reached the ultimate in the dairy industry. In spite of that farm labour is still required on dairy farms.

It's a little bit different in the grain producing areas and a little bit different for the grain farmer because the grain farmer can offset the shortage of labour by simply purchasing bigger machines which will cover more work in a si milar period of time. And he can to some extent offset the prob lem created by a shortage of labour. This cannot however be done much further in the dairy industry.

So, Sir, it seems logical that if dairy farmers are not going to either desire or want to produce or able to produce the products of the dairy industry in sufficient quantities to feed the population of this country, then it seems that the other alternative is the use of substitutes and over the years the increase in the consumption of margarine is such as to warrant some con si deration now for those who produce that product.

The removal of the color ban on margarine as proposed in this legislation, although might have generated a heated debate 10 years ago, I think meets with general approval throughout the House and throughout the country today. There may be some of the dairy organizations that still may complain about it but the fact is they are not going to be harmed by it I don't think because those people who prefer to use butter will con tinue to use butter.

The margin between the pri ce of margarine and the price of butter is narrowing, and there seems less reason today to make that distinguishing mark between color of margarine and butter than there was 10 years ago; and unless the dairy industries are in a position that they're able to produce the amount of spreads that are required in this country then there can be little reason to quarrel with the contents of this legislation.

I would ask the Minister however to, and I will repeat that particular question that I asked earlier when he was not in the House, to advise the House when he does close debate, if the recommendations contained in

Section 6 of this bill are similar to those which are con tained in the Food and Drug Act, if the margarine producers will still be subject to the Food and Drug Act and if there is any simila rities in the proposals contained in this legislation as are currently in the Food and Drug Act.

One other point, Sir, I think that the vegetable oil industry may be interested in knowing somewhat in advance, and I note that the bill indicates that the bill will be effective on the day it receives Royal Ass ent, and I just wonder if the Minister may not want to reconsider that to a certain extent in the light of the possibility of stocks on hand in some of the stores today; whether they must give them an opportunity to dispose of that stock before the new legislation becomes effective.

And I wonder if the Minister may not want to contact people in the vegetable oil industry to determine if that might meet with their wishes because I believe they are some what concerned, and the Minister may want to talk with them before allowing this bill to be proclaimed or before it reaches third reading. In other words, what I'm suggesting, Sir, is that perhaps there should be a date of proclamation in this bill rather than it becoming effective im mediately upon receiving Royal Assent. MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR. J. R. (BUD) BOYCE (Winnipeg Centre): Mr.

Sp eaker, I hadn't planned on making a contribution in this debate but the Minister who wasn't in the House as pointed out by the Member for Morris, I just want to take exception with his remarks in the first of his speech. It is very regrettable that he chose to preface his remarks by those comments; because here once again, it has been a tradition of the House, and this member has been a member of the House of Parliam ent in Ottawa and that is the practice there also, that when a Mi nister of the Crown is absent from the House on the business of the Crown it is not alluded to by members of the House.

Now the member when we opened this particular session said that he was going to try on his part to raise the decorum of the House and I challenge him once again to do just that. Those of us who know better should perhaps try and set an example for others.

But with reference to his brief remarks, you know as I say I regret very much that he chose to preface his remarks by those words because he did draw some poignant point to the attention of the members relative to the difficulty of people getting farm labor, and of course as he pointed out, the difficulty in the dairy industry is one of the most intensive labor demands in the rural economy.

510 February 18 , 1974 BILL 10 (MR. BOYC E cont'

d) Some members say, you know, what does Winnipeg Centre know about dairying. Well I imagine I can still run a Babcock test or a Rouse Gottlieb fat extraction or anything else . . . is perhaps a couple of technical terms. But surely, Mr. Spe aker, the member knows that the Food and Drug Act is paramount to this bill, that it will have to comply with the regulations of the Food and Drug Act. But once again, Mr. Spe aker, just as I said I hadn't intended to speak but I just want to draw this on ce again to the attention of the Member for Morris. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister will be closing debate.

The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Spe aker, I regret that I wasn' t here at the opening remarks of the Member for Morris, and further I regret that the Member for Morris chose this occasion to take some exception over my absence because I was engaged in business that was not very pleasant, indeed it was the sendin g of flowers to the husband of the late Mrs. Hunt and I regret that I have to impart that knowledge to the House. I think I should though reflect again on the comment that I made in this House during the Throne Speech, Mr.

Speaker; when I said that members opposite have inventive minds and try to . MR. ENNS : Mr. Speaker, on a point of privi lege. MR. SPEAKER : The Honour able Member for Lakeside state his matter of privi lege. MR. ENNS : Well, Mr. Spe aker, I have no objection as to the amount of latitude you, Sir, wish to allow in discussio n on principle at second readings of bills, I merely wish to state the point at this particular time that that same latitude of course would be asked for and hope fully received on this side of the House .

I respect the Minister 's right to, or any member's right to; deal very broadly when we're dealing with second readings but the rules do call for us to limit ourselves to principles contained within the bill and if somebody on this side of the House has str ayed from that and has not caught your detection that, Sir, soes not justify any abuse of that principle on the other side. MR. SPEAKER : Ord er, please. The honourable member did not have a matter of privi lege. He did have a point of order. The point of order is well taken.

I should also like to indicate that I am trying to give as much latitude in respect to relevancy to all sides. If I do it unfairly I hope it will reflect upon this person and not upon the Chair, but I do try to adju dicate equally on all sides. The Honour able Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I again want to point out that members on this side of the House who have duties far beyond those opposite are called on occasion to be absent from the House for very important reasons ; for example tomorrow I have to be away in the morning - we're not meeting in the morning but if it was Friday it would be a problem - where I have to address a group in my capacity as Minister of Agriculture. So that members opposite should not try to use their opportunity when Ministers are absent to imply that there 's something wrong about the absence of one Minister of the Crown.

I think that is to say the least , Mr. Speaker, somewhat rude. The bill before. you, Mr. Speaker , is not one that is difficult to comprehend, it 's a very simple one-page bill which I thought I covered most fully in the introductio n of it. I gather there is some question as to whether or not we should consult with the industry as to the date of implementation, and I simply want to make the observation, Mr.

Speaker , tha t we usually determine that after committee stage, so that if there are people that have certain views that, particularly, would want to wish us to delay implementation I think we could find that informa tion out at that particular time and if it seemed advisable we certainly are not hung up as to a date at which time this act would become effective.

As far as being in contradiction or in conflict with the Food and Drug Act, I think it 's true to say that that particular legislation national in scope, really is superior to all other acts in Canada of all provi nces and therefore obviously .our act would have to conform and comply. I'm sure there's nothing in our amendment that is going to detract from that concept. With those few comments, Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank honourable members for their contribution.

I did not really expect a very controversial period over the introduction of this legislation havin g been only one of a number of provi nces that have repealed the same kind of provisio n s within their jurisdi ctions in the last two or three years. It's in keeping with the times; it 's a piece of legislation that quite frankly gives the consumer the right to choose,

February 18, 1974 BILL 10 (MR. USKIW cont'd) . quite frankly a right that should have always been there, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No. 10 agreed to? So ordered. Bill No. 12. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Speaker, I ask the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand. (Agreed) MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 13. The Honourable Member for Assini boia. BILL NO. 13 511 MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assini boia ) : Mr.

Spea ker, I rise to support the bill and make a few comments at this time but before I do that I hope I have the lati tude to say a few words in respect to what has been said in the House just a few minutes ago. I take very strong exception to what the member has said, the Minister of Agriculture, when he sa ys that somebody has stated that he wasn't in the House, when I can document for him at any time when the Minister from the front benches have indicated to my Leader saying he hasn't been in the House or has said the member or the Leader of the Off icia l Opposition has not been in the House. And, Mr.

Speaker, that has not been stated on one occasi on; that has been stated on at least a dozen occasions. So I mean if that's too touchy for the Minister of Agriculture well then he had better search his own soul because you can look at the front benches today, there wasn't too many of them in there; and sure the Minister had to tell us that he had a job to do to send some flowers and he probably did, but he has a large staff in his department which we haven't. We also have letters to reply to, we have phone calls to make, commitments as well. We haven't got a staff like he has.

Maybe it shouldn't have taken him three hours to do it, Mr. Speaker. So I just want to put that on the record because I hear it every day and I know where the member is, the member is in his office, he has work to do as well. Mr. Speaker, I do rise to support the bi ll. It's unfortunate that we usually get legislation after something very serious has happened and in this case there was a fatal ity and since the inquiry the legislation is before us, so I do rise to support it and I think that legislation is good legislation and is much overdue.

I do have some questions to ask of the Minis ter, and I see the Minister is in his seat. One of the principles in the bill involved, it says that the Commission may decline a license to any boxing promoter or wrestling promoter and that is final, it may refus e to grant a permit or a license, and I would wonder if he would agree to perhaps that there should be an appea l, maybe an appeal to the judge, because the commission is very small.

There are only three members on the commission and for instance at the present time Winnipeg is considered to be a wrestling capital in North Ameri ca, for instance, it's receiving very high public support and if say that promoter and the commission did not see eye to eye or did not ag ree he may be put out of business, which took many years to build up the business to the point where it is today. I'm not objecting but I'm just suggesting to the Minister if it may not be a good point so that a promoter may be able to appeal to so mebody instead of the decision of the three member commission would be final .

The other point, Mr. Speaker, I know that the commission members must receive some remuneration. I don't know what it is, but I hope it would be suff icient for them to give time to administer this act properly.

I know that the government does receive three percent of the gross take I believe on wrestling remuneration as well as boxing, so in my opinion this would be a considerable amount of money that the government takes in so they would have enough to, I'm not sa ying pay a salary to the commissioners, but surely they should receive some remu neration because if they don't even get their expenses I don't think they should be asked to do the kind of job that's asked to do on this commission. Mr.

Speaker, the other point that concerns me, I know that there's been discussion and to some extent a medical officer, a doctor can be provi ded ei ther by the promoter or the com mission, and in my opinion I think that the commission must take the responsibility to see that a doctor is present or to hire the doctor and pay this doctor at all occasions, at all events, be it boxing or wrestling. Because if they don't, if there is another fatality or something does happen then there may be responsibility put on the commission members which I'm sure would oot be right in this instance.

So I would like to see that the commission has the right to hire the medical off icer and make sure that they do, make it their responsibility in the act.

512 February 18, 19 74 BILL 13 (MR. PATRICK cont'

d) The other point, Mr.

Speaker, that I would like to raise to the Minister at the present time is, I understand in the bill that it states that every boxer or the manager of every boxer must also have a permit besides the promoter from the commi ssio n and I'm sure that the Minister will agree there may be some boxers that do not have managers or they may have a manager somewhere in the States and some of the other large centres and may not even be travelling with the boxer, so what happens in that case, is he not allowed to particip ate and does he require to have a permit or should the onus be put strictly on the promoter ?

So these are a few of the points. I congratulate the Minister for bringing the legislation in. I think it's much overdue and this is a better course of action to be taking. I know there has been considerable discussion that perhaps all boxing should be banned in the City of Winnipeg and stopped becaus e of what happened a few years ago and I think this is a much better course of action to bring proper legislation and put the onus on the commission, give them the kind of powers that are required so that they can manage and carry out their functions in a proper manner.

So I'm prepared to let the bill go to second reading and I hope that the Minister can give me some of the answe rs. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister will be clos ing debate. The Honoura ble Minister. HON. RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Touri sm, Recreation and Cultural Affairs) (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I've noted the comments made by members of the Opposition in regards to Bill 13 before us . It would be my intent to take in cons ideration the reco mmenda tions made by members, and more specifically suggestions made by the Member for St.

James Assiniboia - I'm sorry Ass iniboia - in regards to possible amendments to different sections that will be presented to commit tee. I would certainly look at the advisability of adding a clause that would give an appeal to the commissi on its elf and that I believe can be dealt with in com mittee. In regards to conditions of permit for the boxer and his trainer is another

section that can be looked at. And the question of per diem for the members of the comm iss ion and the possibil ity for hiring of specia lly medical examiners for different matches and what not is another point that can actually be had by a slight amendment to the bill before us or something that could be dealt With by regulation in niy mind. On that note, Mr. Speaker, I thank the menibers for participating on this bill in principle and commend it to the House for it to go to Committee and back for third reading. MR . SPEAKER: Second reading Bill 13 agreed to ? So ordered. Bill No. 9.

The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR . USKIW: Can we allow that matter to stand, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 11. The Honourable Minister of Finance. BILL NO. 11 MR. CH ERNIACK presented Bill No. 11,

an Act to amen d The Insurance Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Fin ance. MR. CH ERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, my notes are very brief. There are three ma jor amendments being proposed, the ot hers are corrections such as numbering of sections . But the three major items can briefly be summarized. Fi rstly, one deals with the fact that apparently some insurers sometime refuse to furnish claim forms to claimants because of their opinion.

There are no insurance moneys payable; the amendment requires that insurers furnish claim forms to anyone who wishes to claim under the insurance policy. The other two are matters that are recommended by the superintendents for all provinces for uniform enactment. One deals with the fact that some accident and sickness policies have made the payment of income disability benefits contingent on the disabled person being confined within doors. The amendment that is being proposed to all provinces would make such a con finement condition in a policy ineffective.

The third is a matter that has concerned the superintendents where they have found cases where group incurance is switched from one insurer to another and in some such cases persons

February 18, 1974 513 BILL 11 (MR. CHERNIAC K cont'd) ..... under disability claim when the switch-over occurs have had their benefits cut off. This applies because of terminating policy, provides for termination of all benefits with the termination of the contract. The amendment again being recommended to all provinces would not allow insurers to avoid full pa yment of contract benefits on a claim merely because a contract was subsequently terminated. Mr.

Speaker, as has been the practice in the past, assuming it suits this House to approve second reading of this bill, that when the bill comes before Law Amendments the Superintendent of Insurance, Mr. Fred Swain will be available to deal with the more technical aspects of any of the questions that may arise and may be asked in Committee. MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Gladstone, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR.

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-20
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 20.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3842b70a8aac44c7c0f293ac3ec6dd10ecc66155

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