VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00p.m. - 6:00p.m. WEDNESDAY, AUGUST lS, l979 NO. 23 ( \ ~-,

August 15, 1979 Tape 814 EC - 1 The House met a~ 3:00 P.!-1. l1r. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Order, please! The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. HR. JAJ.'IIESON: Mr. Speaker, I have a particularly happy duty at the outset of this afternoon that I think all hon. members and all people in Newfoundland will be pleased to hear, I most especially, because it concerns my own area, not just my district but also the area in which I live.

It has to do with an international competition on UNICEF and the Ye ar of the Child, and I think hon. members will be interested to know, without my going into all of the details, that a contest was held to encourage students' awareness of UNICEF and to show a measure of thanks for their participation in the annual UNICEF campaign. There were over 2,000 entries received and judged accordingly. Ten winners were chosen and many honourable mentions given. The most outstanding pictures, by the way, in case me~bers are interested and the public is interested, will be on display for a two week period in downtown St.

John's. But what is particularly rewarding and gratifying is that one painting in particular stood out, so much so that ~~e artist, sixteen year old Philip Hollett from Arnold's Cove 1 was awarded a prize for outstanding achievement and his picture was submitted to the UNICEF national office as Newfoundland's entry, and, as a result the outcome was that Philip Hollett's water colour will be the Canada official exhibit in this International "!ear of the Child art ex.~ibit which is to be held in conjunction with the Moscow Olympics. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

JAlUESON: The reaction indicates that I was correct ia assuming that I would have the indulgence of the House to convey to Philip and to his parents, Albert and Dorothy Hollett of Arnold's Cove, the congratulations of the House on this quite outstanding achievement, which I think is in line with what we have been saying about encouraging the artistic endeavcurs of young Newfoundlanders. SOME HON. ME."'BERS: Hear, hear! 2C62

August l.S , 1979 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. MARSHALL: Tape 81 4- EC - 2 The hon. the Pre5.ident of the Council. Mr. Speaker, I do not know what head of proceedings it comes under, but I would certainly wish to join in the COngratulations to the young person and his parents on this very marked achievement, and it is particularly gratifying to know that 1 once again, in the field of the Arts here in Newfoundl.and that Newfoundl.and does not take a second place to any province, as witnessed once again by this achieV!!ment of the young person from Arnold 1 s Cove. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: :r would like to welcome on behalf of all. hon. members a delegation from the 3urin Town Counc.il, headed by M~r George senior, who are in the galleries today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Forests. MR. MORGAN: Hear, hear! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS The hon. the Minister of Lands and !'lr. Speaker, I wish to inform the hon. House of the projects and p.rogrammes that we plan to carry out this year in the Department of Forestry, the number of projects and the n:umber of men to be employed and the cost to 2C63

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 815 SD - 1 !1R. J • I•IORGAN: the taxpayers of our Province. Under silviculture programmes this year; This programme, of course, deals with ~~~roving the growing conditions of our forest stands and regenerating the cutover areas where natural regeneration has failed to co~e. The first component of this proqramme consists of thinning our forest stands, the thick forest stands, and to provide adequate space for the tree growth.

A total of thirteen projects will be carried out this year in the following locations; in Salmonier, in Lethbridge, in La Scie, in .Robinsons, ~!elvers, Goose Arm, Taylors arock, Bryants Raft Pond, in .Roddickton, in Conch, in ~ain Brook and Otter Pond and Scammels Pond. The amounts-instead of getting into details and giving the details of the amounts of the various projects to the House, the statement here will be tabled for all hon. members to see. The total costs of ~•ese forest thinning projects is valued at $572,000 and will employ a total of 205 employees, 205 men employed in this forest thinning project.

The second aspect of the silvicultural programme, • .• e are involved in this year, is the planting of nursery grown seedlings. These seedlings are grown, of course, in the new nursery at Grand Falls. We are seeing a production this year of 600,000 seedlings and next year we will see six million .Erom the same nursery in the Central Newfoundland area • Therefore, this year we are planting 500,000 of these seedlings in 400 acres, to be carried out in locations in the Nor~~west Gander River area, in the Bay d'Espoir area, the Lethbridge area and again in Roddickton or the Great Northern Peninsula. 2064

August 15, 1979 Tape ·<o. 815 so - 2 MR. J. l10RGJIN: We will also, this year, be carrying out projects of site reclamation in preparation for planting m:xt y<Ja.L , as ::: mentioP,eC:, of six million black spruc;:e ·seedlinqs. It is a tree that is not susceptible to the budworm as are the other species we have in the Province. And these areas are, for tile benefit of all melllbers of the House, the projects are to be carried out in th.e following areas; in Lethbridqe, in O;r;over's Ridg-e, in the Birchy Ba,y area, in Salmon Pond area and the South Pond atea, in Stephenville, st. George's and in the Cormack area.

These projects will total $399,000 ami will again employ 120 people on this year's programme. Ove;r; a1l!i abQve that, Mr. Speaker, unde;r; the la.bo .ur intensive forestry <Jconcmi.c stimulation programme- this programme, of course, is a result of a recently signed federal/provincial agreement -we are going to carry a number of projects this year around the province, and these projects again are outlined with details of the cost for each project.

We are looking at salvaging, in many areas of the Province, ti.mber stands damaged by the budWorm and. carcying out again roadside improvements to the forest stands and the major road networks around the Province

AUGUST 15, 1979 TAPE NO. 816 DW - 1 MR. J. MORGAN: and pre-commercial thinning. The areas to be concerned this year are Sop's Arm, the Saltwater Pond area, P ort.;.a~l u Creek; Southwest Brook,;tampden Road, Li';'::le P..!.?e!: Conne River 1 and Glenwood/Norris Arm area, in Clarenville/ Bonavista area and in the Swift Current area. The total value of these projects is $1.1 million. This work will be carried out thiz year and will be employing 137 employees, the three different projects.

Also between now and the end of February of this year 1 we are looking at employing an additional 263 men along the same lines as these kinds of projects mentioned on forest thinning and the salvaging of budworm damaged timber stands. Mr. Speaker, also I want to inform the House that in connection with the spray programme carried cut this year we sprayed approximately 15,000 acres of forest areas in the Province.

We did not get involved in a large scale spray prograrnme.using Matacil. we used an experimental project using Bt and the report of that spray programme and the total assessment giving the effects and the analysis of the res·~lts of that spray programme will be made to me shortly, maybe after the House of Assenbly recesses. But I want to emphasize to members of the House that that report will be made public upon receiving the reports giving the effects of the Bt spray programme and also the present situation with regards to the infestation by budworm in our forests.

That report will be made public upon my receiving it or a few days after. On the harvesting and utilization of our forest products, I want to emphasize that the department is now developing new regulations and standards for forest management, not only for forest management but also for the harvesting and utilization of our forest products. Unfortunately,! will be unable to announce the new regulations in this session of the House but I intend to ir~orrn the House of these new regulations when the next sitting convenes.

AUGlJST ~S, 1979 '!.'A.!'E ~0. 816 Q~l -2 MR. ~. MORGMT: We wi21 be also t his year, ~ . Spea~er, carrying out a cable logging G>peration in the Bay d • Espoir area wher e •Ne will see most of the activity in regards to salvaging the budworm till'.ber stand 's ; that is because of the fact it is a high unemployment area. Unfortunately the member for the area is not in his· se·at today but it is going to be of substantiai benefit to t he 3ay d ' Espoir .

It is going to ·o verc ome the problem of uneJnPloyment son.~wl-ta t and i;; is going to also salvage the timber stan ds which, after being s alva ged and stock piled will he tendered and hope fully the l ocal manufacturers of lumber in the area, t..lle sawmill operators will !:.e able to acquire the timber stands t."''at will be cut and s tockpiled and to use t hese timber st.ands in t.'leir own local sa-.:mill operations in the Bay d' Espoir area .

And in con j unction with that we will be carrying out a cable logging operation and that cable logging ope r ation will s ee men wbo l-lill be employed on· the -job training and a ne~1 technique of cable logging which is, of course 1 logging on slopes in areas of our Provin ce 2067 .. ..

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 817 NM - 1 MR. MORGAN: where legging is not normally carried out. In conjunction with that cable logging experiment in the Bay d'Espoir Community College of training people in our forestry industry throughout the Province for the purpose of learning new techniques and again learning the techniques of cable logging. I want to say as well, Mr. Speaker, that we just completed a major study of the Goose Bay potential forest industry. That study was carried out by the company Sandwell Management Consultants.

It has just been completed and I am hoping to be in a position to annouce the results of that study within the next number of days. We have also appointed, Mr. Speaker, a task force in the Department of Forestry, a task force to deal with moderization and improvements to the existing operations of the newsprint industry in our Province, the larger operations,of course, being in ~~is case so far Price (Nfld.) and Bowaters. We are looking forward this time next year to the Price Abitibi operation at Stephenville.

That task force is to determine means and ways of improving and modernizing the equipment being used by the larger mill operations in our Province and to make a report not only to us, the provincial government 1 but also to the federal level so that these companies can hopefully avail of possible funding from DREE to improve and modernize their equipment in their mill operations. Also, Mr. Speaker, this year we are going to be carrying out a very significant forest access road construction programme.

We will be completing the existing forest access roads commenced last year and ,.Jill be conducting a construction forest access road programme in carrying out this programme this year of new forest access roads in the following areas. Now these areas are all listed here for members of ~~e House to be aware of and I will table this information rather than list them off in my making this report. I want to say, Mr. Speaker, in making this report to the House of Assembly that the Department of Forestry is

August 15, 1979 Tape t<o. 817 NM - 2 determined to see over the next nuober of years, commencing as of this year, w~ are determined eo see proper management of the resource that we nave. we are aeterauned r.o carry out extensive reforestation pre>qTammes to overcome the problei!IS we have encountered both in regards to forest fires and infestation of our forests by budworm and the Semlcck Looper in the past and we are der.erm1ned also to ensure that the large companies, Bowar.ers, Price (Nf1d.) and Price Abitibi comply with our management regul a tions, that they manage and operate in the areas of our Provin ce and in the forest areas in compliance with our terms and our regulations, and only by following our regulations will they be allowed to operate.

SOME !!ON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! M!l.. HORGAN : I want to say, Mr. Speaker, that the forest 1ndustry, despite the fact certain members of

August 15, 1979 Tape 818 PK - 1 MR. MORGAN: t~e opposition may find it a joke, but the forest industry - MR. ROBERTS: We co not find ~e forest industry a joke. The minister, yes, .Dut no~ the fores~ industry. MR. MORGAN: The forest industry in our Province last year contributed to the economic of our Province $142 million, and that is no insignificant amount. And what our aim and objective is, the Department of Forestry, is to make sure that is increased substantially over the next number of years. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : MR. FLIGHT: Hear, hear!

The han. member for Windsor-Buchans. Mr. Speaker, a short reply to the minister. For this side I want to say to the minister that the Opposition welcomes $2 million to enhance the forestry of this province and we welcome the projects where they are going to be implemented. But it has to be pointed out here, Mr. Speaker, that $2 million, presumably of $13 million undertaking,not a dollar of that is finding its way into enhancing the timber stands held by the various paper companies. This money is being spent in areas in Newfoundland that in effect are Crown lands.

And when the minister states that the paper industry in Newfoundland or the forest industry contributed one hundred and forty odd million dollars to the economy of this Province, he should also say that by far the greatest share of that came as a result of the operation of the two paper mills.

There was some indication in the past six months from the minister and the Premier that the Province has finally recognized that we could not tolerate any longer the kind of forest management that we have seen by the major paper companies in this Province, namely, Price (Nfld.) and Bowaters and recognizing, that, that the government was going to accept the responsibility of going in on the timber limits held or controlled by the various paper companies 2070

August 15, 1979 Tape 818 PK - 2 Mr. Flight: and doing the things. The short-term benefit would have been jobs created and the long-term benefit would have been the announcement of our forests: and we would have taken the responsibility of guaranteeing Price (Nfld.) and Bowaters a wood supply that would sustain their operation over the next ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty-five or thirty years. None of this $2 million, Mr.

Speaker, is going into - for some reason this minister, although I believe he understands the situation and I believe that he intends to look at what indeed is happening in the forest management from a harvesting and reforestation point of view, the kind of programmes that the companies have carried out over the years, but there seems to be a desire to shy away from anything in this Province controlled by those two paper companies. And, Mr.

Speaker, if we are going to maximize,as the minister said in his statement, if we are going to maximize the benefits to this Province from our forest industry then he had better start taking a look now at the limits held one way or the other by grants, under lease, and controlled totally by the paper companies. SOME RON. MID-iBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: And that makes up the bulk, the great bulk of the timber producing lands in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: And either he recognizes that, and goes in and either through negotiations has the 2071.

August 15,1979 Tape No.819 AH-1 MR. FLIGHT: companies agree to start carrying on good forest management and stop the kind of waste that this Province has been subject to this past fifty years, either get an agreement that the company is going to do the reforestation that we deserve to have done, that we have to have done- the kind of clean-ups, the salvaging of wood left around the country, the rethinning, the reforestation- either they agree to do that or we tell th- that, fine, we will go in and do it,because it is in our interest to maintain a sustainable wood supply for those paper companias. Mr.

Speaker, having said that I again officially for the Opposition welcome this particular programme and say to the minister it is just a very thin end of the wedge of the kind of programmes we are looking forward to in forestry over the next few years. SOME HON. MEMBERS: HR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Hear, hear! The hon. Minister of Mr. Speaker. I first of all apologize to the Opposition. I only got this Ministerial Statement made up after the previous minister started his statement, so it just arrived in the House or I would have provided it earlier.

It will be recalled that some weeks ago government decided to carry out a seven point programme aimed at investigation and alleviating the dust problems in the iron ores mines in Labrador West. Since that decision was made,intensive discussions have taken place between the unions and companies concerned through the medium of a technical committee. we said at that time that we had set up basically four committees, two in each, Sculley Mines and the Iron Ore Company of Canada with representatives of government, union and management.

Considerable work has been done to the point where today as chairman of the two senior committees, one dealing with the Iron Ore company situation and the

August 15,1979 Tape No. 819 li.H- 2 MR. DINN: other dealing with the Wabush Mines situation 1 I held meetings of these two committees for the purpose of endeavouring to reach final agreement between the partie£ on certain aspects of the: proposet1 p~~..;ram.~1e. ~ am p.l.:~.::;e:.l to say that agreement has been reached between the two companies and the two unions involvec that the Ncrther Institute of Memorial University of Newfoundland will be the cu-ordinating body for this comprehensive programme.

I consider this agreement to be a major step in getting this programme off the ground and I am also pleased to state considerable progres3 was made with respect to the other steps in the proposed seven point prograzrcne. I bope to be able to make a further announcement with respect to progress on this important subject within the next few days. MR. SPEAKER: (S:illlms) Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: The hon. member for Mr. Speaker, first of all let me thank the hon. minister for sending me over a copy of his statemnt a few minutes ago. It was very co-operative of him and I thank him very much.

For our part1 we certainly welcome the announcement made today by the minister that there has been an agreement between both sides,actually four sides, the company and the union in each particular case,to set up as the overall body to do this study the Northern Institute of Memorial University. We are happy that there has been an agreement and of course we are happy too that our own university can become involved in this kind 2073

August 15, 1979 Tape 820 EC - l ~IR. RIDEOUT: of technical evaluation of the dust problems in Labrador West. Of course, our prime concern, Sir, obviously that part of our Province. We hope that the required studies can get underway quickly. We hope that the reports and the recommendations can be in quickly so that the necessary changes and implementation of recommendations can be put in place as quickly as possible so as to guarantee and maximize as much as we can the health and safety of Newfoundlanders who are working in the iron ore industry in Labrador. So, Mr.

Speaker, for our part, we certainly welcome this positive announcement by the minister. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. JAMIESON: Hear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins). Would he care to indicate to the House now when the next deadline has been set with regard to ~~e Come By Chance oil refinery? I say that because, as Hansard will reveal, I have been asking about this issue now a number of times and it was indicated that the environmental report was in.

And I do not want to misquote the han. minister, but I have a feeling that we were of the opinion that it would not take too long. Now today I understand there is going to be another - I have heard two reports - four or six weeks delay and I am just curious, first of all, as to whether those dates are actually correct. Is it, in fact, going to be another six weeks before the environmental report can be assessed by the government? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I should first clarify what these deadlines mean.

The ~eadlines mean that we have given an indication to the first mortgagee a number of times that we would hope to have our response ready for the first mortgagee whether government would give its consent to the proposed sale of the refinery or not, tr~t we have indicated a number of times that we would hope to have a response ready by 2074

.~ugust. 15, 1979 Tape 920 EC - 2 DR. J. qlLLINS: sud! and such a· date. Now it was difficult to predict when _, in fact, all the factors would be in place effect on all th!! people in this Province andJ certainly, a potential effect on people in the Placentia Bay are.a. It was difficult to predict e:x;actly when all these, facts would be in our hands.. We ha've set a ni,Illlber of deadlines, I think some of the111 rather optimistically, but this was to give an indication that we were working diligently towards getting a result as soon as possible. The last deadline was the 15th of August.

This was related not only to the environmental issue, although that loomed e:x;tremely large in our minds at that point in time. There had been a number of other iss~s that we have gone into in some detail Which were of great concern to us and we felt, :i.f I may use ~ colloquial expression, that we had a handle on those. But the environmental one, particularly the air pollution one, W<!.S one that was concerning us very deeply and this is the one that was alluded to a ni,Illlber of times when the new deadline was set. Now we do have in hand 2075

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 821 NM - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: most of the answers we want on the air pollution. As a matter of fact 1 I can inform hon. members, Mr. Speaker, that we now have the final report from the ERT group, the expert group,but it has just come to hand, just come to hand this morning and although there is not too much new in it,from a quick scanning, in addition to what was in the draft report, nevertheless it does have to be subjected to a certain amount of study by all concerned. With that in place we expect that certain other factors that had to be looked at will move ahead quite rapidly.

As hon. members now know, the deadline of August 15th. cannot be met, and I think it is in the best interest of the Province that we not stick to a deadline that we would think would be unwise. A new deadline has not been finally decided upon at this time but I would expect that it would be something of the order of another six weeks. I hope hon. members will understand that I am giving that just as an estimate at this time. We do have to consider a number of things before setting a new deadline.

Now the last thing I would like to say at this point 1 and there may be other questions come up1 is that no matter what deadlines 1•e set this does not mean that things are then concluded at that time. There are a lot of things to be gone through yet, many of them over which the Province has no control. There has to be certain numbers of transactions go on between the prospective buyers and the first mortgagee, there will have to be things go on with the Supreme Court of Canada, and the federal government has to take certain steps. MR. ROBERTS: I think the minister means Supreme Court of Newfoundland. DR. J.

COLLINS: I am sorry. I meant to say Supreme Court of Newfoundland, yes. And there are certain issues that the federal government has tc review and settle and then 1 of course 1 finally, or perhaps not finally but at the same time the Federal Review Agency has to get into the situation. 2076

Auc;ust 15, 1979 1-'.R. SPEAKER (Simms ) : Opposit:ion. MR. .1A.'U£~0N: Tape No. 821 t\M - 2 A supplementary, t:he hoo. Leader of the Mr. !:pea.ker, if the hon. the minister will look at Hansard he will see that at: least: three and a half we~~s ac;o I detailed precisely t:he sequence ~~at: he has been calkinc; about and when he says that they were overly optimistic, I was the one who warned this Bouse t:hat the 15th. of Auc;ust was just a facade. It may have been a misrepresentation but: ! will not c;et into arc;uments here and I will leave ::hat.

But the point is that it now is clear that there is going to be no movement 1it seems to me, when that sequence is put within the current year and probably it will be we~ into 1980 before all of ~~ese steps have been taken. But: the key point that I would like to ask the hon. minister, which is consistent: with his o~~ responsibl i ties 1 is will he now table in this House or make available t:o the public the enviroruneneal ::-eport? MR. ROBERTS: Bear, hear! •·

August 15, 1979 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) DR. J. COLLINS: Tape 822 EC - 1 The hon. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, I do not accept that the deadlines we set were a facade, the.y were an honest aim. We 1'.in-ec for these and we did not hit the target but - MR. JAMIESON: (Inaudible) to be naive. DR. J. COLLINS: Well, the hon. member ma.y feel ':.hat these were naive things. I might sa.y that t.'J.ere were a lot of naive things said in this House concerning reactivation of the refinery and I think certainly all of these naive side of the House. ,;taternents did not come from this SOl~ HON • MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR.

J. COLLINS: With regard to whether t.~e environmental stud.y will be made public at this stage 1I do have to tell hon. members t."J.at this is not government's intention at this time. What we expect to do is when we have all things in place a definitive statement will be made to the House and to the public whether the Newfoundla.TJ.d Government should support the initiative taken b.y the receiver on behalf of the first IOOrtgagee. It has not been our intention to make public or reveal or indicate our decision on a piecemeal basis.

We feel that the situation is best served 1 so as not to raise undue expectations 1 if we had the whole picture in mind before we go to the House and the public. MR. JAMIESON: MR. SPEAKER: the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: A supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. t.~e Leader of Mr. Speaker, what I would lik~ to ask the hon. the Minister of Finance is this, If, in fact, the environmental report is negative, what is the percentage in going on wit.'J. all of the other steps?

What I have to ask him, therefore, is will he table the report or1 at the very least, will he indicate to us that it meets all of the Newfoundland Government's requirements? Because if that is not the case, then all of the further negotiations - it would seem to me, logically, given the sequence that the hen. minister has put fo~ard - will fail. Therefore, I do not understand why it is not possible to put the - 20?8

August 15, 1979 Tape 822 EC - 2 MR. JAMUSON: environmental report in.to the public do~n so that

a) if it is good, that .means the other steps can proceed; use the same word as I used before- but it certainly is not going to be a very productive exercise to go on something that is environz ,entally unsound. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) DR. J. COLLINS: The hon. the Minister of Finance. Mr, Speaker, I fully agree with the Leader of the Opposition that it woul.d be illogical to go ahead with the procedure if there were an obstacle already identifie .d that would mean that the government could not give its assent.

So I think it is quite clear that the environmental report was positive to the extent - and I do not mean by this to diminish its positivity - it was positive to the eJ\.-tent that we are continuing with the investigative process that we have been undertaking from the beginning. MR. jAMIESON: MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: A final supplementary. A final supplementary, the hon. the I do not doubt the hen. minister's word - i .t would be inappropriate to do so. The hon. ministe .r, however, is aware that there is a great deal of 2079 ..

August 15, 1979 Tape 823 PK - 1 Mr. Jamieson: concern among my own constituents that the environmentalreport may be based upon a hypothesis as to the type of crude oil and r_he like that is croinq to be employed there.

Therefore,! suggest to the hon. minister, and I put it in form of a question, if it is sufficiently positive to proceed with these other step~, then I believe that I am entitled to say that the constituents of mine-and others in Newfoundland, by the way 1 who are worried about environmental issues-should have the report so t~4t they can know whether or not, for instance, the actual oil that it is proposed to employ conforms to what it was the environmental tests were taken upon.

And I emphasis once again that there are questions, legitimate questions in people's minds as to this matter, which really leads me back to the basis of my question, has the hon. member seen and does he know if a contract exists for a supply of oil and if that supply of oil is of the type that was tested in the environmental proceedings or whatever the work that was done by the company? MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I would certainly like to reassure members of this House and also others that the environmental study was gone into in great detail and with the best advice available. This was not only so in regard to experts , ar,d these were the most expert group that government could lay hands on, not only our own experts, but also Environment Canada had the same information made available to them and we received a report from Environment Canada.

So I think the assessments of the environmental impact -and I am talking about air pollution here, the possibility of air pollution - the assessment of air pollution impact from the re­ opening of the refinery on the conditions or under the arrangements that were indicated to us in the proposal from First Arabian and from Ashland Oil, the proposed operators of the refinery, that study was gone into in great detail 1 I would suggest much more so than would be possible 1 sa~by a series of public hearings or anything of that nature. 2eso·

August 15, 1979 Tape 823 Dr. Co;l.l.ins: In regard to crude oil supply 1I would only reiterate what the hon. Premier said a few days ago that the assurances we hAve received from Ashland Oil ·and from First Ara.bian a.re such that we are s<;Ltisfied on that issue to date. MR. SIMMONS: A suppl~entary, Mr. Speaker . PK - 2 .MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): A supplementary, the hon. member ~or Burgee­ Bay d'Espoir. .MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the same minister, the hon. the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). The minister undoUbtedly will recall that the Premier during his successful bid for the leadership of his party indicated on or about the 15th. of March 1 2081.

AUGUST 15, 1979 TAPE NO. 324 cw - 1 MR. R. SIMMONS: indicated publicly that should he become the leader and the Premier he could settle the Come by Now, ~~- Speaker, ~Y supplementary is is that one of the naive statements to which the . minister refers, or if not could he tell the Bouse what has happened since the Premier made that undertaking that has substantially altered the time frame? The Premier's time frame then would have had a decision by about the 15th. or the 17th. of June, now we are talking some time into September at the very earliest if we take the minister's definition of time frame now.

What has so substantially altered,! ask the minister - MR. F. WHITE : The election is over. Y!R. R. SIMMONS: - since the Premier made that undertaking March that would now delay it so appreciably? Y!R. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The han. Minister of Finance. DR. J • COLLINS : Mr. Speaker, the han. Premier is not here today and I would not presume to comment on any thoughts that he had in his mind at any point in time. I think that question should be c'.irected to the han. Premier when he returns. MR. R. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: Burgee -Bay d' Espoir. MR. R. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary, the han. member for Well, Mr. Speaker, let me rephrase it so that it is appropriate for the minister to give an answer wi,:hout reference to the Premier's statement as such. Can the minister indicate to the House why there has been such a protracted delay in this particular matter from what the government had hoped would be the case initially? Nhy does there continue to be a delay? Is the environmental issue one that the government had not contemplated heretofore and is a Johnny-come-lately to the set of factors that has to be brought to there on the subject.?

Why is there a continuing delay in bringing this matter to a resolution? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance. 2082

AUGUST 15, 1979 TAPE NO. 824 DW - 2 DR. J. COLLINS: ~lr. Speaker, I think I essentially answered that question in my responses to the han. Leader of the Opposition. And just in

summary I would say that government considers the re-o~ening of the refinery as potentially hazardous, as oil refineries are 1and I would point out to han. members that there has not been a refinery in the Eastern United States for I think something like ten or fifteen years. We therefore took it as our responsibility to go into this thing in the greatest detail possible to re-assure ourselves that if it is re-opened it will be opened with the minimum hazards to Placentia Bay. MR. R. SIHMONS: MR. SPEAKER: for Burgee- Bay d' Espoir. MR. R. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A final supplementary, the han. member Hr. Speaker, when the proposal from the First Arabian Group was singled out as the only proposal that government waul~ co~sider- for whatever reason I do not know; something to do with, perhaps, their inability to concentrate on more than one pro~1em at a time.But for whatever reason they said they would hear from First Arabian only and they would deal with that one on its merits and then in time perha~s hear from others.

In view·of the long delay, much beyond what was contemplated when that decision was made to deal with one proposal only 1 could I ask the minister would he now consider having proposals from other would-be operators of the refinery? For example, Petrocan,I am sure,might have something to offer in this respect if we coul c• get a company of that stature involved in the Come by Chance opeJ:ations. would the minister now, in view of the long delay,contemplate receiving proposals from other would-be operators of the come by Chance refinery? !1R. S • NEARY : MR. SPEAKER: Or consider the ones they have. The hon.

Minister of Finance. 2CS3

AUGUST 15, 1979 TAPE NO. 824 DW - 3 DR.J. COLLI~S: ~r. Speaker, the negotiation with First Arabian and their proposed opera~ors has been a long exercise. I do not think it has seen an unduly long exercise in view of the importance,and government is stic~ing to its undertaking to either reject or eomplete the process before getting into other possibilities. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): MR. L. STIRLING: The hon. member for Bonavista North. ~r. Speaker, I have a question that would normally be directed to the Minister of Industrial nevelopment (Mr. Barry), and if not him the Premier.

But it deals with forestry so I will ask the question of either the President of the Council (~lr. Marshall) or the Minister of Lands and Forest (Mr. Morgan) 1 whoever would like to answer it. There is a rumour going around that the sawmill formerly owned by Rayc Forest Products in the Gamba area will be sold and dismantled and removed from the area. Can either one of the gentleman confirm that this is so? MR. SPEAKER: MR. J. MORGA..'III: The hon. Minister of Lands and Forest. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to say I sincerely hope that it is only a rumour because as of yesterday I asked the officials of the Department of Forestry to convene a meeting today or tomorrow with the officials of the Industrial Development Department and the Development Corporation to determine the possibility of re-activating that mill for the sole ·,urpose of looking at using the salvaged timber frmm the forest fire that occurred in that are~ this present season. MR. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 2084

August 15,1979 Tape No. 825 AH-1 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Bonavista North. MR.STIRLING: the minister on that action, Could The hon. member for I would like to compliment be confinn that it i::> hi" intention that if that rumour is so,that they are considering dismantlinq, that he will use his influence to stop any action to bring about exactly the point that he has brought up? I ~~ink it is an excellent suggestion. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Lands and Forests. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I will be mo~ than pleased to disclose to the hon. gentlemen in the House tomorrow during Question Period or during the Answera to Question already asked the results of today's meetings being held by the different officials. MR. STIRLING : MR. SPEAKER: hon. member for ~onavista North. MR. STIRLING: A supplementary. A final supplementary.

The In the Ministerial Statement earlier,and in the committee meetings earlier,the minister indicated that if he could get the approval from Ottawa he would allow part of the money for the spruce budworm salvage operation to be used for the same salvaged timber which has been burnt. Now would the minister indicate whether or not he has had any success a~ ~~t as yet? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Lands and Forests. MR. MORGAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, the emphasis is now being placed on salvaging timber stands damaged by budworm because there is more timber damaged by the insects so far than by fire.

We had, this year, a total of 160,000 acres damaged by fires, a substantial amount 1 and we are now discussing with Price 2085

August 15,1979 Tape No. 825 AH-2 MR.MORGAN: (Nfld), with a company involving export of pulpwood and with the local sawmill operators in the general area of Gambo-Glovertown to determine possible means of salvaging. We may not need the funds from Ottawa to be diverted for that purpose of salvaging. We may just get involved in using the private sector. However,if the negotiations with the private sector fail 1 there is still a strong possibility of having funds allocated to salvage the timber stands this Fall. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) LaPoile. MR. NEARY: The hen. member for Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct my question to the hon. the President of the Council. There is bad news from Ottawa today, Sir, that there is going to be layoffs of public servants in all the provinces, and I w.ould like to ask the President of the Council if he can identify the areas in Newfoundland where federal civil servants will be laid off? Has there been any prior consultation with the provincial government and does the hen. gentleman know how many federal public servants will be laid off in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. President of Mr.

Speaker, I am not aware of the numbers or indeed the extent of any proposed lay offs of public servants in this Province. I think it is sufficient to say that the hen. Premier and the two ministers up there, I know, are up there fully protecting the interests of the people in Newfoundland and whatever il!lpact there may have to be on the Canadian nation as such would be much less in this Province as a result of the representation we have up there. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. member for LaPoile. 2086

August 15,1979 Tape No. 825 AH-3 MR.

NEARY: The hon. gentleman, Sir, is no doubt aware that federal public servants in Newfoundland already receive less pay than their counterparts in other parts of Canada and that the number of federal public servants in Newtounoland is less per capita than in any other province in Canada, so in view of these facts would the hon. gentleman indicate if the government here, the provincial government, intends to raise strong objection to any cutback, and in the light of, as the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collinsl told us yesterday, the economy not lookir.g too bright for the months ahead, would the hon. gentleman indicate if this government will make a strong protest to the Government of Canada to stop any cutbacks or any lay offs or any curtailment of services or of the public servants in this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) the Council. MR.MARSHALL: The hon. President of Mr. Speaker, this government always looks very sourly at any attempts to cut back the provision of public services in this Province by the federal government. It is a fact that over a period of years it is our opinion that there have been too few public servants here in the Province of Newfoundland, too few federal public servants.

Steps have been taken over the past number of years to alleviate this problem or this effect and we are pleased to observe the policies of the central government at the present time to continue to decentralize services and I would hope and I would expect that any cutback in services would be felt more in Central Canada itself than it will be here because this Province has no intention of seeing any diminishment in the services available to the people of this Province and that they should not be certainly any less than their fellow Canadians in other provinces. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary.

The hon. member for LaPoile.

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 826 SD - 1 NR. SPEAKER: (Simms) The hen. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, the last part of the answer there, Sir, I think ~s an ind~ca~ion of tl1e attitude of this government, that the lay offs here will be in pr~portion to what takes place in other parts of Canada, so the hen. gentleman did net really answer the questioll. I am going to ask the hon. gentleman if he will undertake,on behalf of the people in this Province, to identify the areas where federal civil servants will be laid off in this Province?

Will ~,ey be lighthouse keepers, will they be CN employees, will they be in the forestry or fishery department? Will the hen. gentleman undertake, as quickly as possible, to find out from the hon. Sinclair Stevens, who made the anncuncement on behalf of the Government of Canada, and identify the areas where public servants will not be replaced, will be laid off or where the cutbacks will take place in this Province? MR. SPE:;;ua:R: (Simms) MR. W. HARSHALL: The hon. President of the Council. Mr.

Speaker, I think I have already answered that question quite adequately, that this government is certainly very coqizant of any steps that may be taken in that direction. It remains to be seen the full import of them; when we kno~ the full import, if any 1 on this problem, we will take the appropriate steps which will involve the definition of the measures that have been taken. MR. SPEAl<ER: MR. J. HODDER: The hen. member for Port au Pert. }l.r. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Nr. J. Dinn). I understand that twenty-one members of the St.

John's Allied Printers Union have been locked out by the St. John's Publishing Company. What steps is the government taking to resolve the dispute? !.ffi. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Labour and i1.anpower. 2088

Auqust 15, 1979 Tape No. 826 SD - 2 MR. J. Dnm Mr. Speaker, it is not genera:ly my policy to discuss specific union-management problems in the House of Assembly because this situation is a very, very touchy situation in that the printers at the Evening Telegram, the particular problem there goes back basically to the Anti­ Inflation Board when it was set up and the fact that they were rolled back or never had an opportunity.

So we have a conciliation officer in touch with that situation at all times and we would hope that we could get the resolution to the problem but I certainly would not 1 nor should I 1 discuss the specifics in the House of Assembly or anywhere else publicly. MR. J. HODDER: MR. SPEAXER: (Simms) Port au Port. t1R. J. HODDER: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member for In view of the fact that the company has brought people in from outside the Province to do the jobs of the member unions, who are presently locked out, what does the government plan to do to resolve this situation: MR.

SPEAKER: Manpower. HR. J. OINN: The hon. Minister of Labour and Yes, Mr. Speaker, that is another very risky situation to be talking about in the House of Asssembly or publicly. The fact of the matter is !:.here are things that can be done with respect to legislation in this Province~ I was in touch with senior officials in my department. I am having them look at the situation with respect to the printers and when I get out of the House, hopefully in another five or ten minutes, I will be in contact with him to see what the whole story is because I only have it piecemeal now. MR. J. HODDER: !1R.

SPEl'J<ER: for Port au Port. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member MR. J. HODDER: I would like to ask the minister a final supplementary. The fact that the union has called on 2089

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 826 so - 3 MR. J. HODDER: the company to return the the bargaining table on a number of occasions, I was just wondering r1ow .i.ong til<= goverum<!nC. pl<~.ns I::LJ ,;iuL"t oi tult<La<.:to thi:; particular situation? MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Hanpower. t1R. J. DINN: The hon. i1inister of Labo~r and Mr.

Speaker, basically what has happened ~p to this point in time 1 and there are a few thing that have happened that we should not be entirely happy with, there are some things we need clarification o~ and we are getting that clarification. have, as I said, senior officials in the department attempting to clarification as to specific items. But with respect to the negotiations and the attempts by both sides to get an agreement, to get a collective agreement, they are followir~ the normal process.

There are some things that I am concerned about down there that may not be part of the 110rma1 process and that is what I am having checked right now. So I basically can not say anything as to what the government will do with respect to these actions that I have heard rumour of and, indeed, some of which have been reported. So I am getting a full report on that and when I do I will take the appropriate action. MR. SPEAKER: Placentia West. MR. D. HOLLETT: The hon. member for Burin - Yes, Mr. Speaker, 2090

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 827 NM- 1 MR. HOLLETT: in the absence of the Minister of Justice I will address a question to the hon. President of the Council. I would like to ask the hon. member if the reduction in the RCMP Marine Division in Newfoundland, a recent announcement announced it was reduced by fifty per cent,if it was done with the concurrence or after discussion with the government? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I would have to take notice of that question. I will get the answer for the hon. member tomorrow. MR. SPEA.I(ER: The hon.

Leader of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: If I may and there is a moment I would like to return to the hon. Minister of Finance. In view of the questioning that went on earlier 1 could I ask him if he would 1 either or. motions or in some other way, make available to members opposite and to me in particular 1 if you like 1 a timetable. I am not asking him to be specific but an indication of what unresolved issues remain, just a simple straightforward indication of that in some form that spells it out with a degree of precision. Could I expect that?

I am not asking him to do it orally but if I could have that I think it would be very helpful in clearing the air , and I am not using a pun there about the environment. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the hon. Leader of the Opposition's concerns in this area, particularly in view of the district he represents,and I think I can tell him that I will take his request under advisement and do what seems appropriate and what can be done in the circumstances. MR. SPEAKER: has expired. Order, please! The time for Oral Questions

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 827 NM- 2 NOTICES OF MOTION: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bill, "An Act To Further Amend The Government British Newfoundland Exploration Limited Authorization of Agreement Act> 1957." MR. SPEAKER: MR. YOUNG: ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: The hon. Minister of Public Works and Services. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table a questiOt• asked by the hon. member for LaPoile, a list of public servants who have been relocated to Atlantic Place and have been issued free parking permits to date. The answer, Sir, is the Minister, Deputy Minister, and Assistant Deputy Minister of Industrial Development; the Minister, Deputy Minister, and two Assistant Deputy Ministers of Fisheries; the Chairman of the Fisheries Loan Board; the Deputy Minister of Northern, Rural and Agricultural Development; the Assistant Deputy Minister of Agriculture; and a parking spot for the pool car, not tne fleet. 000 MR.

NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have forty written questions on the Order Paper that I have not received answers to yet and I would like to ask the President of the Council, the Deputy Premier when I can get the answers to these questions? Will I get them before the House adjourns? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I believe that question is more appropriately asked at Question Period and I believe the hon. member raised the same matter yesterday and it is very clear in the Standing Orders MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR.

SPEAKER: - very clear in the Standing Orders that 2G92

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 827 NM - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): the minister does not have to answer a question. The hen. member I believe knows that. MR. NEAR~: they have not answered. PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Fogo. MR. B. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition from 249 residents of Island Harbour in Deep Bay in the district of Fogo and the prayer of the petition reads: "We urgently request the Minister of Transportation and Communications to take immediate action to have our roads upgraded to a standard of secondary roads.

At present our roads are in a deplorable condition, especially for this time of year when they should be at their best. The present condition of our roads leaves a lot to be desired with the local maintenance concentrating their efforts on the Joe Batt's Arm - Tilting

section of highway which McNamara Construction has been awarded the contract to upgrade and pave." Mr. Speaker, in speaking to the petition I would like to point out to the minister the terrible condition of the roads in that

section of the Province. I point out to him tha~ the Island Harbour-Deep Bay Road is perhaps one of the worst that you will find on the Island portion of the Province. It is possible at this time of year to drive over the Island Harbour-Deep Bay Road and lose the bottom out of your car in spite of the fact that we are in the middle of the Summer. Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, the grading of the roads of Island Harbour and Deep Bay is practically impossible because there is just not enough gravel to grade. Mr.

Speaker, in presenting a petition on Stagg Harbour two weeks ago,I pointed out that the economic condition of Fogo Island has steadily improved. Last year, Mr. Speaker, the productivity of Fogo Island, if you use a multiplier effect of 2.5, 2093

August 15, 1979 Tape 828 PK - 1 Mr. Tulk: was worth something like $20 million to the Canadian economy. Mr. Speaker, besides the araument for uporadin~ the road for the quality of fish~surely,given such productivity, the people of Fogo Island have earned the right to good roads. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition, on Thursday last, questioned the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett) concerning increased amounts for paving of roads in the Province this year.

The minister's reply,I believe, indicated that machinery was just not available even if government had the funds. Mr. Speaker, McNamara Construction is already on Fogo Island. My information tells me that they will probably be finished their construction by the middle of September. Surely it will be much more appropriate to use their equipment for the rest of the Fall in paving rather than having McNamara Construction take the last two weeks in September and October to move their equipment back to the Mainland. AN HON. MEMBER: • • • • contractors MR. TULK: Sure,you have done it before. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.

RIDEOUT: MR. TULK: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. TULK: Hear, hear! And it cost a lot of money too (inaudible). That is right. Oh, oh! Order! After OCtober, Mr. Speaker, the company could then move its equipment back to the Mainland. Mr. Speaker, I ask that this petition be placed upon the Table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SIMMONS: Ferry land but that was a by-election. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The han. member for St. Barbe. 2G94

August 15, 1979 Tape 828 PK - 2 .MR. BENNETT: Mr. Speaker, I rise in support of the petition as presented by my han. colleague for Fogo (Mr. Tulk). I am sure ten years ago that I had occasion to go to Fogo Island to attend a Development Association meeting. At that time there was a desire being expressed to have the roads upgraded and paved. EVen thenJ eight or ten years ago,the need was there. It apparently still exists. I have not been back there since. Resource development demands roads most certainly in all parts of the Province. Fogo is no exception. Roads are so vital!

The needs of people with regard to roads cannot be expressed. Roads are a must for the development of any area. St. Barbe 1 the district I represent,seemsto have the same problem, having emphasis placed on the construction of roads for the development of the district. As I have said so many times already, Gras Marne National Park which.of course_,is a federal thing we know, but most of our money comes from federal fundinq for road construction. I wonder, Mr. Speaker, at this time if we are not experencing neglect; if we do not experience neglect on the overall picture of roads? Undoubtedly, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister responsible for Transportation and Communications will deny that, this neglect with regards to the construction of roads. And as I have said, roads have always been vital to development , for the economy, for the convenience andcomfort of people. While I am standing, Mr. Speaker, I would like to express my thanks to the han. Minister of Transportation and Communications for having met with delegations from my district. He showed a lot of kindness towards them, which I surely appreciate, andwe look forward to lots of action in the future. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: 2095

Augus t 15, 1979 Tape 828 !?K - 3 MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS ): Order, please! Onder Orders of che Da y i t i s my unders t andin g there if! agreement · to p.coceed with ··O.rder 3, The Mc..tion To -concur. MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEA,KER: MR. ROBERTS: Mr . Speaker . The hon. member for the s~ait of Belle Isle. The answer is , yes we have agreed for our part to allow the government . to treat th:is as a government day, and if they want to go ahe.ad with Order 3 that is fine. If they want to have some ot}:ter ord.er that is equally fine. But, you know, as far as ~te are concerned it is their ~Y for this day only. MR.

SPEAlCER: The hon. Presid .ent of the council. MR. MARSHALL: I would like to get a few first readings over first and then we will get into it. Order 6, Bill No. 14 2C96

August 15, 1979 Tape 829 EC - 1 Ml\. MARSHALL: i'!!otion 6, Motion, the hon. the Minister of a:e..:ili to ::.:-.troduce .;: bill·, "An hct To d:tend The Bhar:r.ilceutical· ~sociation Act," (Bill No. 14), carried. On motion, Bill No. 14, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow, MP.. MAPS HALL: Motion 7. Motion, the hon. the Ministe~ of Health to introd'"ce a bill, "An Act Bespectinq Dispensing Opticians," (Bill No. 11) , carried. On moticm ., Bill No. 11, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 8.

Motion, the hon. the ~.inister of Health to introduce a bill, "An Act To Provide For The Prevision Of LQwer Cost Prescription Drugs," (Bill No. 12) , carried, On ll¥)tion, Bill No. 12, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 9. Mo'l;ion, the hon. the Minister of Health to i11troduce a bill, ''An Act To Amend The Embalmers and Funeral Directors Act, 1975,'" (Bill No. 13), carried. On motion, Bill No. 13, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tQII¥)rrow. MR. MARSHJ\LL: Motion 10.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment to introduce a bill, "An Act To lunend The Department Of Consumer Affairs And Environment Act, 1973," (Bill No, 4), carried. On motion, Bill No. 4, read a firs ·t time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 2G97

August 15, 1979 Tape 829 E C - 2 MR. MAm>HALL: Motion ll. Motion, the l1on. the Mi.nj,ster of Cons'l!rer Affairs. and Environment to introduce · a bill, "An Act RP.specting The Drilling Of Water Wells And The Conservation And Use Of Ground-water," (Bill No. 5), carried. On motion, Bill No. 5, :read a first time, ordered read a seconcl, time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 12. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Fisheries to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Fishing And Coasting Vessels Rebuilding And Repairs (Bounties) Aet," (Bill No. 9), carried.

On motion, Bill No. ~. read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion 13. Motion, the hon. tit~ Minister of Fisheries to introduce a bill, "An Act TO A!nend The Fishing Industry Advisory BOard Act, 1975," (Bill No. 10), carried. On motion, Bill No. 10, read a first time; ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

August 15,1979 Tape No. 830 AH-1 MR. MARSRALL: Motion 14. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Education to introduce a bi-ll, "An Act To Amend The Schools Act," (Bill No. 6), carried. On motion, Bill No. 14, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: ~tion 15. Motion,the hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting Government Printing," (Bill No. 27), carried. On motion, Bill No. 27, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 16.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting The Garnishment Against The Remuneration Of Public Officials," (Bill No.7), ca=ied. On motion, Bill No. 7, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 17. Motion, the hon. the Minister Of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To Repeal The Puel Oil Tax Act," (Bill No. Sl, carried. On motion, Bill No. 8 , read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHAl.L: Motion 18.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Tourism to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Historic Objects, Sites And Records Act, 1973," (Bill No. 29), carried. On motion, Bill No. 29, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 2099

-.aL- ---- August 15,1979 Tape No. 830 AH-2 MR. MARSHJ\LL: Motion 19. Motion, the hen. the Minister of Tourism to introduce a bill, "An Act To Provi4e For N.atural Areas In The ProVince To Be Set Aside For The Benef:l.t, Educ:atl. .on Ane1 EnJoyment Of Present And Future Generations In The Province," {Bill No.28), carried. On motion, Bill No. 28, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion 20. Motion, the bon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower to introduce a bill, "An Act To l<.l!lend The Workers' Compensation Act," (Bill No. 25) , carried.

On motion, Bill No, 25, read a first time , ordered read a second t:ime on tCIIIQrrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 21. Motion, the hon. the Mi.Jlister of Labour and Jolanpower to introd~ a bill, "An Act Respec:tinq Amusement Rides, " · (Bill No. 24) , carried. On motion, Bill No. 24, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 22. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Transportation and communications to introduce .a bill, "An Act To Amend The Highway Traffic: Act," (Bill No. 31), carried. On motion, Bill No. 31, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 2:100

August 15, 1979 Tape 831 EC - l MR. MARSHALL: Motion 23. Motion, the hon. ~~e Minister of Crown Lands Act," (Bill No. 33) , carried. On motion, Bill No. 33, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 27. Motion, the hon. the l·ti.nister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting An Increase In Certain Pensions," (Bill No. 38), carried. On motion, Bill No. 38, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: the Social Services Committee. HR. SPEAKER: (Simms) SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.

THOMS: Motion 3. l'..otion, to concur with the report of The hon. the member for Grand Bank. Hear, hear: Mr. Speaker, before I get into the meat of my few comments, if indeed there is any meat to my comments - MR. NEARY: MR. THOMS: Start off I will. I would like to apologize to you, Mr. Speaker, for using what may not be an unparliamentary comment yesterday afternoon; however, I do not believe that I should have used the word in the context in which it was used.

At the time, I was questioning a particular minister on something that I feel is important and that, of course, was in connection with the recent tragedy involving the helicopters. And I still believe, Mr. Speaker, that all civil servants, all ministers, all government officials, should be grounded.

I am not suggesting - I have never suggested, of courseJ the helicopter because only M.O.T. can do that~ but as far as government officials travelling on helicopters are concerned, as far as ministers travelling- anybody within the ambit of the civil service, or ministers, I think, should be asked to refrain from travelling pending the outcome of the M.O.T. investigation. 2101

August 15, 1979 Tape 831 EC - 2 MR. THOMS: That was the only thing I was asking in the question. It is something that concerned me and I was dl.sappo'lnted. t.~at I could :>ot ryet ::o.:> U."'ldertaking f=rr. ·t.':le ~1inister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett) to that effect. Mr. Speaker, I would like to associate myself with the comments that were made by the Leader of the Opposition yesterday when he spoke during that debate. These are new rule changes and, of course, like everything else, with experience the changes need refinement.

I agree in principle with these rule changes and I think that this House, Mr. Speaker, will be restored to a debating forum, which is what the House should be. It should not be a place where you get personality attacks, it should not be a place where the names of private individuals are hissed across ~'le House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. THOMS: It just should not be. I really do not mind somebody on the other side of the House attacking me, in a sense. I do not mind somebody on this side of the House attacking somebody on that side of the House.

Because if the Minister of Lands and Forests has something thrown at him, he can get up on his feet in this House and he can defend himself. But your Harry Steeles and your Bob Coles - they cannot get up on their feet and defend ~'lemselves in this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, as I said, I would like to associate myself with the comments made by the Lea'der of the Opposition. They are all constructive collUllents. I guess I was what you would call a 'floater' when it came to the Committees.

I went in and I sat down and enjoyed almost all of the privileges that were enjoyed by the people who were appointed to these Committees. There were certain ones that I had a particular interest in. I had a particular interest in Justice, since it is my shadow. 2102

August :i.S, 1979 Tape No. 832 DW - 1 MR. L. '!HOMS: I sat in on some of the meeting involving the Social Services and also 1 of course 7 I had a particular interest in :1ines ar..d Energy 3.nd in ·t.he FiSheries. So I :::cr.~i.r.~ !!":y$el-: to 't:he.s.z. four general areas. Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not want to burst any bubbles. There has been a great deal of euphGria connected with these committees. The hen. member for St. John's West (Mr. Barrett), the hen. member for Stephenville (Mr.

Stagg), the President of the Council (Mr. ~arshall) most of the people who have spoken in this debate so far have had nothing but the highest of praise for the committee systell'. I think it is about time that SO!l'ebody said, 'Okay, let us stop and have a critical look at the committee system.' I thii'lk that is necessary. But the euphoria with which I have heard the President of the Council, particularly the.members for St. John's West West, Stephenville speak of all of the ·co-operation that we got from the hen. ministers opposite in this House. Well, that just was not so.

We did not get the full co-operation of the Ministers from the Government. We saw in lots of cases the same co-operation that we got from the Minister of Finance (!lr. Collins) this afternoon 1~hen he refused and said that they probably would not table in this House an environmental study. Now,I ask you, 11r. Speaker, really what can be wrong with tabling in this House an environmental study? There certainly cannot be anything secretive about i~ that members of this House should not know about.

I saw ministers, particularly the Minister of Fisheries (Hr. w, carter), who has done a complete 360 degree turn in the committee. Everything that he stoo~ fer prior to the May 22nd. federal eleetion, prior to the __ June 18th. provincial election all of that - I mean1there was going to be full co-operation, there ~ras going to jurisdiction in the fisheries ~n this Province with all the milk and honey that was flowing between Ottawa and St. John's.

So what do we get from the Minister of Fisl:eries r ~ry simply 1all he really ~anted he said was more consultation. suddenly :j.urisdiction is not a question anymore, all he wants is more = 2:103

August 15, 1979 Tape No. R32 D~l - 2 MR. L. THOMS: consultation. So you owe the praise - and this is one thing that is wrong with this particular type of df;!bate that we are having riqht now in this House instead of maybe in a Committee of the ~ole where we can direct questions at ministers in this debate. One of the prcblerns is~really,to a certain extent, it is t~· ning out to be a forum in which member after m~mber and we a~ not unguilty of this ourselvestgets up and praises the ministers who are supposed to be giving us all of this information.

Now, I just did not see this information corning forth. ~at I saw in the committee system in lots of cases was so~e very, bombastic statements, pompous statements by an awful lot of ministers and that.is all I saw. We did not get the co-operation, we did not get the information. We did not get the co-operation, we were su?posed to have gotten from them. The Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) really knows what I am talkinoabout. I mean, he played that game very, very well in the cornmi ttee. One of the best: One of the best: !-IR. S • NEARY : in the last year. MR.

L • THOMS : He had some great teachers in the House Mr. Speaker, we saw t'"'<".Se rdnisters, I saw them, we all saw them,I think; we saw them hedge, we saw them squirm but we did not see them,at tirnes,giving us the information that we wanted. We just did not get it. So for the member for St. John's West (Mr. Barrett), Stephenville (Mr. Stagq), for the President of the council (Mr. Marshall) to get up and say differently just is not so. It just did not happen. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. L. THOMS: said. (Inaudible) Of the Opposition. Maybe I should retract everything I have 2i.04 "

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 833 so - l 11R. L. TH0!1S : :tr. Speaker, t he Dail y N ews, who by the way, Mr. Speaker, still owes me an apology and a correct1on, bu~ tne Daily News, a couple uf days ago, CGlied for a royal commission into the administration of justice in this Province. And they called for, one of the teDtls of reference of that royal commission to be the setting up of a Police Commission. Mr. Speaker, I would be awfully surprised, I have not checked this with him, but I would be awfully surprised if my friend from LaPoile (Mr. s.

Neary) has not in the past called for a royal commission into the admir.istratior, of justice. MR. S • NEARY : I have for years and on various and sundry occasions. MR. L. THOMS: Now, I do not presume, of course, to speak for all lawyers in this Province - AN HON. MEMBER: Good. MR. L. THOMS : - nor would I want to speak for all the lawyers in this Province - MR. S. NEARY: No, I do not blame you for not wanting to speak for the lawyers. 11R. L. THOMS : - but, I think there is a great deal of merit to the request and I think it is a request that the Minister of Justice (~~. G.

Ottenheimer) should look very seriously at. I think it was brought out here with the Ministerial Statement by the Hinister of Justice a few days ago, that there are things, that there are problems involved with the administration of j ·lStice in the Province that need looking into There are things like whether or not a Police Commission is needed. What happens every time there is a controversy surrounding the police force? Chief Browne is the one who has got to answer to the p\Wlic. Maybe this is not fair, maybe there should be a Police Commission that 2:105

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 833 SD - 2 MR. L. THOMS: can answer to the public 1 a.fter all, it is the public purse. connection with our city police or our Royal Newfoundland Constabulary that they, in connection with the issuance of tickets, I said at that time and I will repeat here, that the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary should not be meter maids, they should simply not be meter maids, they should not be on Water Street giving out tickets, they - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. L. THOMS : (Inaudible) for that sexist statement . - they should not be.

Sexes or not, the statement is made and I will stand by it, they should not be giving out tickets. I think the question of policemen who are instructed, and they are, who have a quota,which they do have, to give out tickets in this city, you know, I think this is a question that should be looked into. I think that anything that demeans our police force, whether it is the RCMP or t.'le Royal Newfoundland Constabulary, it should be looked into. MR. RIDEOUT: MR. L. THOMS: They do have a quota system, do they not? Of course, they have a quota system.

Everybody is prepared to admit they have a quota system except the Minister of Justice (Mr. G. Ottenheimer) and this is the government we are getting all of the co-operation from. He has oot the fortitude to admit that there is a quota system existing and that is why the policeman is up behind the Jewish Synagogue, and that is why the policeman is parked in the Pius Tenth driveway or that is why he is parked by Prince Philip Place, to get unsuspecting drivers so they can fill their quota. MR. RIDEOUT: 11R. L. THOMS : MR. S. NEARY: That is absolutely wrong. Of course, it is wrong. Terrible. 21.06 "

Aug_ust 15, 1979 Tape No. 83 3 S.D - 3 MR. L . THOHS: Of course, .i.t is wrong. This is the sort of thing that maybe,the teinls o.f referenae, til.is royal alleged hustH.ng of young women by the RCMP which I do not for a minute believe is true, however, there is a widesp'"read l;lelief that it is so. Maybe the commission can look into this sort of thing, maybe they can. Mr. Spaaker, MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) on his feet. MR. L. TH0!-15 : Maybe .i.t is time that happened. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Justice. (Mr.

G, Ottenheimer) or the Superintendent of the RCMP admitted through the Minister of Justice the other day that there is a deliberate practise of just willy-nllly stepping people who 2107 "

August 15, 1979 Tape 834 PK - l Mr. Thoms: are driving home at night. They do do it. Mr. Speaker himself has complained of this, people having been stopped three and four times for no reason. I mean,whatever happened to the legal aspect, you know, the reasonableness of the whole thing, that you had to have a reason to stop somebody~ AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: people. MR. THOMS : Boo~ Boo! It is a shameful act by the police to stop Of course it can become - but these are things that maybe a royal commission into the administration of justice can look into. MR. ROBERTS: The Minister of Justice (.Mr.

Ottenheimer) should tell the police to enforce the law, not to be going around stopping innocent people going about their innocent business. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I promised the Caucus that I would not take up the sixty minutes I am permitted, but I would like to reiterate again that, you know, basically I am in favour of the Committee system. I think it needs refinement as any new system would need. I would ask the Minister of Justice to look into the question of whether or not to appoin~ a royal commission and give it some very broad terms of reference.

I think the people of Newfoundland, and I think the police forces in Newfoundland deserve that. And I believe they want it. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER (MR. BAIRD) : The member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, first of all I •~uld like to say that I have to disagree absolutely with what the person who previously spoke just said I had the good fortunate and the honour to Chair the Social Services Committee, and certainly in no instance whatsoever did any minister fail to give anything less than full and complete and frank information.

Anything -' that was asked, any information that was requested was supplied. And if it so happened 2108

August 15, 1979 Tape 834 PK - 2 Mr. J. Carter: that the minister did not happen to know the answer right at that moment he undertook to supply it shortly afterwards, and .i.t. was done. I cannot unaerstand what . Committee the hon. gentleman sat in. MR. THOMS: One of them was yours. MR. J. CARTER: So I understand. I understand one of the Committees that he sat in was Justice which was under the heading of Social Services, and I must say, I found that the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) was as frank as a minister can be.

I do not believe that the quota system came up to the same extent as it came up later on in the House. But if the Minister of Justice tells me that there is not a quota system or a bag limit or whatever you would like to call it, I am prepared to believe him. reason to believe otherwise. I see no In any event 1what the hon. gentleman has just said, or very little of what the hon. gentleman has just said is correct. The ministers were as frank as it was possible to ;•be. Insofar as they were informed by their officials they informed the Committee.

So I just do not know what the hon. gentleman is trying to do or trying to say. cleared on this point. And I would just like the record to be Now, Mr. Speaker, the Social Services Committee dealt with five committees, Social Services, Justice, Consumer Affairs and the Environment, Health and Education. And the members on the Social Services Committee were the member for St. John's North, myself as Chairman, St. John's West (Mr. Barrett), St. John's Centre (Dr. McNicholas), Humber West (Mr. Baird), Exploits (Dr. Twomey), Fogo (Mr. Tulk), Port au Port (Nr.

Hodder), the gentleman for Port au Port was the Vice-Chairman, st. Barbe (Mr. Bennett), Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren), and several other members of the House did come in to participate in the Committee system, in the deliberations. 2109

August 15, 1979 Tape 834 :i?K - 3 Mr • J. carter: Now, I wou:i.d like, also • to take is sue with what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition said yesterday. He aomplai.'l.ed that wi-th the tilree ':-:lllltll:itt-'i>es sitting at the sam~ .time that the members were spread too thin, the press was spread too thin, and it was not possible to attend all the meetings that one would like to, and it was very difficult for the press to cover all the meetings that they wanted to. Mr. Speaker, the three Chairmen got together and made up three schedules, one which called for only one committee to meet at a time. Another

schedule which called for only 1;wo Committees to meet at a time. And another

schedule which made it possible for three Committees to meet at a time. We compromised and said let us try and have just two Committees meet at a time and if there seems to be a great in.terest on the part of members or of the general public or of the press, then we can always revert to the first schedule, that is, one Committee meeting at a time. 2110

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 835 NM- 1 MR. J. CARTER: This wculd;of course,mean meeting both in the morning and at night. However, there did not seem to be an CA~e;:;s~vc l.LLt~.J..e::rt i)y ci~:.ht::L the general pUolic, or other members of the House, in these committees. The impression was left that although this was a welcome change from dealing with the estimates in the House nevertheless~just a very casual interest was expressed by members other than those on the committee and I must say that those on the committee showed great interest and very active participation.

But the members who were not on the committee, with a couple of exceptions, did not show that great an interest so we continued with the two committee meetings at a time, or two committees meeting at a time and towards the end of the hearings we increased it to three committees meeting at a time. There was no objection offered at the time and I find it very strange that there should be any objection mentioned now. I would just like that to be on the record. I have to disagree quite strongly with the Leader of the Opposition. However, the criticisms themselves are good ones.

If it were the case that there was so much interest that people would like to attend all committee hearingsthen ~t is certainly possible for schedules to be set up so that only one committee sits at a time and then if every member of the House wants to sits in and participate in that committee~ so they may. As for the criticisms i.evelled by the member for LaPoile~that they were held in the basements and in the sub­ terranian chambers of Confederation Building, .

I think he is letting his imagination run away with himself and I think that no more attention should be paid to it than is normally paid to that individual. He likes to call himself the watch dog of the House, I will say this, he is half right. He is certainly half right. However MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, we are on fair - If he gets personal and tries to smear me and I will have to get personal and - MR. MORGAN: Order! Order, Mr. Speaker. 21U

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 835 NM- 2 MR. J. CARTER: I think the hon. gentleman there is well acquainted with smearing. I would say the hon. gentleman's favourite dance is certainly the twist. No question about that. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) ,1r. Speaker. I would retaliate but I would not want to lower the decorum of the House. MR. J. CARTER: The hon. gentleman should be well aware of MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) lowering the decorum of the House. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, it is intolerable the wild charges that one has to bear and to listen to from the hon. gentleman.

I only hope that he has the intestinal fortitude to make these charges before the Public Accounts Committee, because there he is not, as I understand it, protected by the privileges of this House, and yet he will be in a forum where if his charges have some merit that they can be swiftly dealt with and I will be - MR. NEARY: Which one do you refer to? MR. J. CARTER: - very interested to see. Well there are so many charges the hon. gentleman has laid. I think every single person who has ever come inside the confines of this House - MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Baird): MR. J.

CARTER: You supported the most corrupt administration - Order, please and address the Chair. Mr. Speaker, I apologize. I got carried away by the tremendous number of wild charges that the hon. gentleman likes to - Fortunately the press pays very little attention to him. The charges that he makes are now being carried near the astrological column and the Ripley's Believe It or Not, and I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that in future, in the very near future they will be close to the death notices. MR. NEARY: You worked that pretty smart, pretty smart. 2:11.2

August 15, 1979 MR. 3. CARTER: to be heard in silence. MR. SPF.AlCER (Baird) : MR. J . CARTER: Tape No. 835 Nl-1 - 3 I believe, Mr. Speaker, I have the right Order, please! I think all members of all committees have agreed that ~~ey would like to see the Colonial Building used as a building for committees . If it is not possible for the House to move back to the Colonial Building, and perhaps it is not because the facilities are not there fo~: all fifty-two members, then certainly the building could be used for commit cee hearings, both for t:he Publir.

Acco~~ts Committee and any other committee chat wished to sit. Possibly the upper chamber, there are r.wo chambers down there, the LegJ.SlatJ.ve Chamber or the 2113 '

August 15, 1979 Tape 836 EC - 1 1-'.R. J. CARTER: Chamber~ there are two Chambers down there, the Legislative Chamber or - ~nat do they call it? - the U~per House. That Chamber, which is now usP.d for sta::ks of hooks,. could be used for another Committee hearing room, and it seems to me that this would be an ideal use for such a building. It has the facilities there for the general public, for the press, and it also has, if I might say 1 the ghosts that would remind us of the important business that is at hand.

Now 1 very quickly, to go through the various departments that were questioned and the items that were brought up. In Social Services there was quite an interest expressed in the 'special homes', these are the homes for people who do need some care and are not able to live on their own but yet are able to benefit from a home environment. And the minister was very interesting on this point and quite a lot of time was spent.

There was a great deal of interest in foster homes and the work that they do, and it was gratifying to note that foster children, according to the minister, are kept in the same home as much as is possible. In other words, if a foster child shows a successful relationship with the foster mother, the department will try and see that that child, or those children, are kept in that same home for as long as possible. There was a lot of interest in the Social Assistance programme and in the possibility of building incentives into those payments.

It was noted that there is a very great burden in that department on staff and that there has been quite a turnover of staff in the last few years. But the pressures in that particular department and on the social workers who have dire=t contact with the public were noted and it was suggested that these pressures are greater in that particular job than in most other civil service jobs, and this was possibly the reason for the turnover. There was considerable discussion on the special services for the handicapped and it is noteworthy that 21.14 '

August 15, 1979 Tape 836 EC - 2 MR. J. CARTER: there is a very , very great emphasis on this particular aspect of the department. There ·.ras also some discussion on alcohol and drug related problems and some very interesting statistics were presented. In Consumer Affairs and Environment, consumer protection was probably the most important theme discussed and the need to protect the public in all respects of their dealings with salesmen and sales people.

The Landlord/Tenant relations, the fact that the tenant seems to have all the privileges, all the rights, and the landlord only has a few - it was felt that perhaps a more equal division of rights would be advisable. Environmental protection was also a great concern, as was the management of waste material. And it was enlightening to hear that there is going to be a great deal of emphasis placed on the management of waste over the next few years. In the Department of Justice, the powers of the police were discussed and the fact that sentences seem to vary from court to court even for the same offence.

Some questions were asked about that. And, of course, some questions were asked about the electoral office. In the Department of Health, which is one of the very large departments, the costs of administration were discussed, and it was enlightening to note that the cost of a hospital bed can vary anywhere from ~100 to $500 per day. A foreign seaman would be charged possibly $150 a day - that would be the average cost of all the beds on the Island. But 2:115"

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 837 GH-1 MR. J. C.'I\RTER: a person who went in for, say, a heart operation or an oper~tion requiring a lot of support services, hi~ bi.i.l coui..d legii:ima-cei..y i::>e f>Ui:. at $500 a uay. 3o, ther.- is nc question about it, health care is ~ensive. Ambulance services and the transportation of the sick were discussed at great length , as was Medicare and dental health, and there were some remarks about the denturists and some anxiety was expressed in getting this very difficult situation straightened out so that there will be some control over that particular group of people.

Nursing services and homes for special care were also brought up. The fifth department, the last department to be considered, was Education, and there student aid was gone into and the minister was very helpful in giving us the formulae that are applied for student aid so that all the members of the Committee were able to understand just how much a student was entitled to get.

The fact of Grade XII was noted, whether it was debated at some length, there was some suggestion that perhaps the pupil-teacher ratio should be increased rather than Grade XII, and all the implications of Grade XII were looked at and considered. The operating grants to school boards were looked at, bus transportation and bilingual education, and it was noted that it seems a pity that each dollar that is supplied, not only to the school boards hut to quit.e a number of boards and agencies, comes with a tag on it.

In other words, this dollar is for this, and this dollar is for that and you must spend it on this, and if you do not spend it on this particular Heading you would have to give it back, presumably, or you would not get as much next year. I t./Onder if members of the committee did ask the1!1Selves and the minister whether or not this was the best way to use such funds. The schools for the handicapped, vocational education and St. George's Community College came in for a lot of discussion, 21.16

August 15, 1979 Tape NO. 837 GH-2 MR. J. CARTER: as did adult education, and it was enlightening to note that in .the last four or five years a new type of examination has been brouaht forward that anyone may write and it is then marked by the Department of Education and a grade is supplied.

In other words, a person might have left school in Grade III or IV and not bothered to go back, gone to work, grown up and be ashamed or not have the time to go back to school but, in the meantime, he may have taken it upon himself to educate himself and so it is now possible to write a particular exam and get a certification for whatever level one has achieved, and that certification has to be accepted, I understand, by Memorial University and by a number of institutions of higher learning. I think it is a very interesting and a very good step forward.

In all of these deliberations there was a tremendous feeling of co-operation and conciliation, but I do not think anyone should forget that the criticisms that were heard were trenchant and were quite, you know, sincerely meant. In fact, it is high time that we all were able to accept criticism.

I do not think that members were all lovey-dovey, there is no doubt about it that the members sitting opposite us are dedicated to the overthrow of this government, dedicated to the peaceful overthrow, that is true, but they are certainly dedicated to the overthrow of this government and we should not forget this, and we are dedicated to the maintenance of it. But that does not mean that we cannot observe the courtesies, with the possible exception of the member for Lapoile (Hr. Neary) , and we should all be able to accept strong criticism as being meant for what it is.

It is certainly possible to inject a certain vigour into the debate if you start by insulring hon. gentlemen's mothers, but I do not think it is necessary ··c..r good debate. 2117 '

August 15, 1979 Tape NO. 837 GP.-3 M}l.. J. CARTER: In closing, I would like to note that there is a circular gone around about the Auditor General, the new federal ~~udii;.or General, who says tr.at ~'.!re is. a new eo~::::ept L"1 th-e ro.!.~ for the Auditor General although this is peripheral to these estimates. It really, I suppose, should cotne in for discussion under the Public Accounts Co111111ittee. Still, the new concept that Auditors General are embracing is what is called the 'value for money auditing'. In other words, up to now members of the House and certainly Auditors General 2:11.8.

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 838 NM- 1 MR. J. CARTER: as well have said, "If a heading has been properly authorized, and if the money has been properly &pent for tnat neading, well t:here is not mucn more ;:o be said about it." Bq:t this Mr. Macdonell has said recently in an article, and I believe also in a speech, that that is not enough. One should also ask, "Has there been value received for the money spent?" In other words was the money wisely spent? And I think that this is a question we could all address when looking at any heading.

Not only was the money properly spent but was it wisely spent, did we get full value? And I think with that remark I can quite well close my statement. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Baird): MR. MORGAN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: Forests. MR. MORGAN: Thank you. Hear, hear! The hen. Minister of Lands and Forests. Mr. Speaker, the hen. - Oh, oh! Sit down and do not be delaying the House. Maiden speech. Carry on, the hen. Minister of Lands and Mr. Speaker it seems that certain members of the Opposition want to even advise the Chair what ruling to make.

The fact that I have been recognized by the Chair, I would like to have some order from the Opposition. Now first of all, Mr. Speaker, I am not going to listen to the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and his comments whatsoever but I did not see who was standing on the other side and I - MR. NEARY: Oh my! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the hen. gentleman from LaPoile- look, he is the most unruly member of this House. MR. SPEAKER: MR. J. HODDER: would yield. Order, please! If the hen. minister had any grace he 2119

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 838 NM - 2 MR. MORGAN: ~rr. Speaker, if the han. member for Port au Port (Mr. J. Hodder) would give me time to indicate what I was attempting to say, I was saying I am not going to be dictated to by the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) whatsoever in this House. I have been here for seven years now and I have no intention of listening to the hon. gentleman whatsoever, in any of his comments. But I will say that because the member standing_in the Op~osition is a first-time member of the House who I welcome here like all new members, I willingly yield to the hon. member for Fogo(Mr. B.

Tulk) SOME HON, MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Would the Chair now, Sir, give a ruling whether or not the hon. gentleman has made his speech, that he can no longer participate in this debate, that he has finished, he has made his speech. MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER (Baird): I yielded to the hon. member for Fogo. The hon. member has yielded to the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk). The member for Fogo please. MR. NEARY: MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: But you cannot do that. I yield my turn. No, Sir, he cannot speak after that. That is it, it is finished now. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, one thing - MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. MR. MORGAN: On a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: On a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Fogo,please. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order and clarification, if the hon. gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) would just - MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, do I have the floor? MR. MORGAN: Yes. Mr. Speaker, because ~~e point was 2120

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 838 MR. MORGAN: raised by the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) that if I now yielded to my good friend from Fogo (Mr. Tulk) in his maiden speech that I would lose my turn to speak in this debate. I think, Mr. Speaker, what I am doing is saying that I am yielding my turn and after the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) speaks I will then speak. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, he cannot direct the Chair. He cannot tell the Chair what to do. NM- 3 MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, I was not in the Chamber although I heard some of what passe~ ~f I may say a word to the point of order.

First of all there is a long tradition in this House that the debate goes back and forth. Your Honour, nonetheless and not improperlY, recognized the gentleman from Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) now, I will say for our side that if the gentleman from Bonavista South will - I do not care whether I use the word yield or not£-but if the gentleman from Fogo speaks then I for one, and I think I speak for everybody here, will not object if the gentleman from Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) gains the Speaker's eye when next it is the turn of somebody to Mr. Speaker's left to speak.

It is utterly irrelevant to us who on that side speaks. I think the important thing, Mr. Speaker, is that there should be a'back and forth in debate within the time at the disposal of the House, Sir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR • .ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER (Baird): Hear, hear! My friend from Fogo was on his feet. Thank you. The point of order is just a difference of opinion beb1een two members. The han. member for Fogo. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. Morgan) and I am happy that you are in the Chair. You are quite a humourous man and - MR.

ROBERTS: Do not get carried away now. 2121. '

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 838 NM - 4 ~IlL TOLK: _ perhaps can appreciate the inexperience of a person like myself. Mr. Spe3lter, in this my first attempt to enter into debate in this hon. House I would like to look at the head being debated, that of Social Services, from the point of view perhaps of the non-voter and I am spea~ng,of course,of ~~ose under the age of eighteen years. 21.22

August 15, 1979 Tape 839 IB-1 MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, given the fact that this is the International Year of the Child and given the fact that the heads under discussion probably affect those people most, I believe a discussion of this nature can be claimed to be somewhat relevant. Before I make my few points however, Mr. Speaker, it is appropriate it seems to offer my congratulations to yourself, Sir, and the Deputy and Assistant Deputy Speaker on your elections by this Rouse in the distinguished positicns you now }1old. Mr.

Speaker, the remarks that I am about to make are made perhaps to remind all of us in our concerns that we seem to have for energy, resource development and financial affairs that there is another component in the well-being of this Province that is equal or perhaps ever greater in importance than any of the above, namely the development of young people. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Rear, hear: MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, a matter of grave concern for our young people in this Province is capital funds for school construction. Many children in the Province, as most of us are aware, go to schools that are just not fit to live in.

For example, Mr. Speaker, Frederickton is a community in my district which happened also to be one of the schools I was responsible for as a supervising principal. It is a school of eighty-nine students. Last year that place was closed for two days because a furnace going full blast could not get the heat up in the building. A child's boots left in the vestibule of that school on a rainy day were filled with water when he went to put them on for lunch. There is exposed electrical wiring in that building which could electrocute any child. Mr.

Speaker, the Fire Commissioner has said that the building itself is a fire hazard. As a matter of fact>at the present time he has given the school board ninety days to make it fire safe or close it down. Mr. Speaker, these are just some of the weaknesses ·in this school and I can mention others in my district~ for example, Fogo Primary in Fogo, and they serve only, Mr. Speaker, as an example of a problem that is widespread in this Province. Now, 21.23

August 15, 1979 Tape 839 IB-2 MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the body responsible for financing school construction is the Denominational Education Committee. But, Mr. Speaker, I have heard the point made on many occasions that that is where the funds come from for school construction in this Province. It is true those people allocate the funds but, Mr. Speaker, the DEC, the Denomina~ional Education Committee depends upon the provincial government for its funding. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear ! MR.

TULK: So in the final analysi3 funds for school construction in this Province is the responsibility of the provincial government. This year, Mr. Speaker, I sat in this Chamber and I was pleased when I saw an increase of $500,000 to the Denominational Education Committee. I felt that now we would see at least some school construction. But, Mr. Speaker, as I found out to my chagrin that amount of money is totally inadequate and in pointing out my reasons for making that statement I will confine my remarks to the Integrated Education Committee with which I am familiar.

Now for those who are not familiar with the Integrated Education Committe~ it is that part of the Denominational Education Committee which is made up of the Anglican, Salvation Army and United Church schools. AN HON. MEMBER: Plus Presbyterian. MR. TULK: Presbyterian, all right. AN HON. MEMBER: Should be like us and have our own. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the point that has to be considered in this House is that the Integrated Education Committee has an immediate priority list of $28 million. In other words to construct the schools that must be built immediately they need $28 million.

They have a long-term construction requirement for an additional $75 million and they presently owe $57 million on schools built from 1969 onwards. Now, Mr. Speaker, out of the $500,00~which I believe gave $14,500,000, 2124

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 840 SD - l MR. B. TULK: the IEC share was $300,000 and you would normally expect some school construction to take p.!.ace. But tilere is a fact which escapes us and that l.S that the Intergraded Education Committee i.as what one could call a floating interest rateJ JUtd as everybody knows, the Bank of Canada's interest rate recently rose one-half a percentage point. The net effect, Sir, was that the $300,000 grant from government is wiped out and there is unlikely to be any further school construction this year. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame, shock. MR. B. TULK: Furthermore, Mr.

Speaker, government grants extend only to 1987. And I am told by an official of IEC that this amount is probably not sufficient to pay off the $57 million now owing. I point out to this House, Mr. Speaker, that with delays the matter can only become worse. In my opinion, the government should immediately out of its own finances, or in co-operation with that co-operative Federal government that we now have in Ottawa, see this problem through so that our young people have decent educational facilities. One other point, Mr.

Speaker, which is of very great relevance, I believe, to young people and that is the retention rates in our schools. We have heard over the past year and a half about the great problems that we have with declining enrolments. And being situated in a high school in this Province when I heard the words 'declining enrolments: I illlmediately said 1 "What nonsense!" The problem that we have is one of retention. Dr. Llewellyn Parsons at Memorial University some years ago, I believe it was two or three years ago, two years ago, did some research on the retention ratesof Newfoundland schools.

In 1971 of the nmnber of people who had entered Grade II in 197~ which was 14,700, nine years later 21.25

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 840 SD - 2 MR. B. TULK: 4,300 of them graduated from i1igh school, a retention rate of 29 per cent. In 1972, there were 14,900 people who had entered Grade II and nine years later 4,800 of them had graduated, ~retention rate, Mr. Speaker, of 33 per cent. What about the last few years? In 1977 of the people who had entered Grade II, 15,915, five thousand of them are graduating, a little less then 30 per cent or about 30 per cent. Now, Dr.

Parsons estimated that counting those who do. not successfully complete Grade XI public exams, and there are some of them, that perhaps 38 per cent of our people finish high school. The recent Task Force disagreed with Dr. Parsons' figure saying that it was somewhat low. But yet, counting those who even after they leave school and do not successfully gradua~e and those who enter trades of Grade X, Grade IX, the Task Force estimated that fewer than 50 per cent of the people who start school will eventually graduate from high school. The point, Mr.

Speaker, is, as I said earlier, our problem with enrolments is not as much a declining population as it is a drop-out problem. Mr. Speaker, add to that the fact that of those who drop out, 50 per cent are unempioyed and only 17 per cent hold regular jobs at the time of a survey done by the Task Force on Education. I say to you, ttr. Speaker, and to ~~is House, as a former teacher and as a concerned citizen, that such a waste must not be allowed to continue in this Province. A.'l HON. MEMBER: i-t.~. B. TULK: Hear, hear. Mr. Speaker, let us look at what the Task Force said about the people who drop out of school.

They interviewed some twenty-five school principals and, Mr. Speaker, with your permission I will read what it says. 2:126

Augus t 15, 1979 Tape 10 . 840 SD - 3 HR. a . TU'"...J<: They asked the principals what their views were on the drop-out problem. And in general, Mr. Speaker, the J?rinci.pa.ls cited the classic reasons for low ability, low interest,. poor family background and simila.l;"" factors. I However, the Task Force goes on to sa~ Addedre~ns such as immediate availability of jobs, especially i .n fish plants, opportunity for later return to school through canada 1-1a.Il£lOWJ!r upgrading programmes and low community interest in education wer·e also given.' There is the important point.

Some principals in the interview sample and others to whom we sPQke expressed concern that the school will rec ieve the blaJne for the drop-out probleJil when the underlining causef! rest . with the individual, 2127 ' ,, •·

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 841 GH-1 1 ~. TULK: the f~~ily and the community.

The Task Force, having heard from Newfoundland, went on to oive some recommeP.c1ations. '!'hey gave ~hr~>o, ".nd the recommendations were: Recommendation 610, that each secondary school in the Province establish a committee on retention whose function would be to identify students'with particular academic or personal problems which Yould lead to their contemplating leaving school and to involve students and parents in an intensive program designed to keep the student in school; Recommendation 611, that schools with more than a 30 per cent attrition rate from Grade VII to XI establish a target of reducing the rate to 30 per cent within three years; Recommendation 3 puts the onus on high school principals, teachers and community.

Mr. Speaker, in my opinion, the Task Force in this Province that has just recently sat evaded the question. That is no answe~ to say that schools and the people who have been trying for years to keep the drop-outrate down are still to be held responsible. But they did point out, Mr. Speaker, that many of the students who drop out are students from low, social economic backgrounds, have little interest in school and are absent for most of the year from school.

You ask any educator in this Province who is worth his salt where the real problem and, perhaps, where the real solution is, and they will point out to you that the greatest need is for greater co-ordination and co-operation at a regional level. It is well- known that we have medical services, health services, social services and justice at a reasonable level in this Province. Well, as a former school principal, I know only too well the difficulty in making any headway in getting the four of those heads or departments of government to co-operate. They operate in isolation from each other and the result, Mr.

Speaker, is a less than 50 per cent completion rate of our high school students. 2:128

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 841 GH-2 MR. TULK: I want to mention before I close, ~- Speaker, one other thing, and that is the amount of social assistance that is ava1lable to people and, as a result, to children in this Province, and to point out perhaps the effect that those rates may very well have on perhaps retention and perhaps just the general welfare of our students.

If you take some of the figures from the social assistance rates that are normally available and just came into effect in June of this year, you will note that a single parent family with three children for a month can receive $310,or $10.19 a day. Now, Mr. Speaker, if you divide that, that comes out to S2.54 per day per person and so on, you can go can go down through it. If you take a single person with six children in the family, it can ~~rk out to $1.79 a day.

If you take two people with ~even -and it seems that the larger the family the smaller the amount- if you take two people with seven children it works out to $1.73 a day. Mr. Speaker, I do not particularly subscribe to the bad backs here in this Province, of politicians and people who say that our people do not want to work and will have bad backs; will try to get bad backs, and get medical notes to get rid of it. I do not particularly subscribe t~ the effect that raising social assistance can have on the minimum wage rates in the Province. I do not believe, Mr.

Speaker, that we can use them as excuses for inaction in the area of social care for the poor and the working poor. I believe that they deserve a better break. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. TULK: FUrthermore, Mr. Speaker, for those of us making $20,000, $25,000 or $50,000 a year it becomes somewhat easy for us to forget and to turn our backs on those who are less fortunate than ourselves. What does it mean, though, for the child 2129

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 841 GH-3 MR. TULK: in school or the social welfare recipient in this Province? That is what I am trying to confine my remarks to. I have seen many children and most of them are from social welfare families, and in many cases not much fault can be laid at the parents' door, but 2130

August 15, 1979 Tape 842 IB-1 MR. TULK: I have seen many children, Mr. Speaker, come to my school with no breakfast. And I expect them and teachers expect them to carry on an adequate performance. The other point that must be raised is that many of our schools in the Province have no cafeteria facilities. Mr. Speaker, I say to you and to this House that if these people are to use our educational facilities and break the vicious cycle in which many of them find themselve~ all levels of government and all concerned groups must get their heads together and come up with a better solution. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I was going to speak on the problem of child abuse in the Province but I yield the floor for perhaps more knowledgeable people than myself. I thank the House for listening to this young fellow from Ladle Cove in Fogo district and I sincerely hope that in the few moments taken there has been some wisdom in what was said. AN HON. MEMBER: Not very young. MR. TULK: Young compared to you. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (BAIRD): The han. Minister of Lands and Forests. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MORGAN: - I do not intend to take up too much time in this debate . I did not get involved in the Throne Speech Debate intentionally. I did not get involved in the Budget Debate intentionally. I wanted to sit back and listen in particular to those newcomers to this Assembly all of whom I congratulate. I congratulate all of them in being elected to this Assembly. So I sat back and listened in both debates and now to the last two days of Concurrence Debates and reports from the Estimates Committees. So in my brief comments I will, Mr.

Speaker, being my first time on my feet to speak in any debate) congratulate Yourself in your election to the authority of this House and of course your colleagu~s in the positions of Deputy and Assistant 2131.

August 15, 1979 Tape 842 IB-2 MR. MORGAN: Deputy. But in my remarks this afternoon I want to commend one man who has not been mentioned to date in the Debate on the Estimates or in the Budget Debate and I am talking about our Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). I think that our Minister of Finance has put together a Budget in such a short time, a very short time. It is indeed a 'hold the I line Budget as it indicates. It is a seven or eight month period to manage the fiscal affairs of this Province.

In the short time that the minister had to do it he put together a Budget which in my view shows financial realism and shows fiscal management. That is exactly what this Budget is doing. I have listened to the debates and I was quite surprised that in most of the speeches there was little or no concern expressed about the management of the fiscal affairs of this Province, and that is what we are talking about, Mr. Speaker; we are talking about the proper management of the fiscal affairs of this Provi~~~- We are not talking about the problems in our own districts. sure we are, some of us.

We all have our own concerns in respective areas and respective districts but the main part of this debate is to deal with the proper management of the fiscal affairs of our Province. I think that this Budget~ looking at the fact that it is a $1.4 billion Budget and the fact that we are in that ~1.4 billion Budget having a surplus of $10 million in a current account, to me clearly indicates that the new reborn, energetic, dynamic administration, the Peckford Administration, intends to properly manage the financial affairs of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear: MR.

MORGAN: True it does not reflect all the aims and objectives of the new,reborn administration, the new administration. I was part of the old administration for a number of years, in fact four or five years 1 but this administration is under new guidance, new leadership,and these aims and objectives have to be portrayed in government policies whether they be policies to develop our resources or polices of managing our financial affairs. 21.32

August 15, 1979 Tape 842 IB-3 MR. MORGAN: 'I listened to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jamieson) when he spoke in the Budget Debate and this}in fact,really is a mini Budget Debate we are talking about now, we are involved in now, and he said the government has lost touch with realism. At the same time in debate the Opposition 21.33

.'1-ugust 15, 1979 Tape 843 RT-1 MR. MORGAN: At the same time in debate the Opposition Leader on whom I will comment in more detail later on - he said that he had read five budgets prior to making his comments in the House on this, today's Budget, the present day Budget, this session, and he says that the Government has lost touch with realism. At the same time, :-tr.

Speaker, the same hen. gentleman when going out looking to become the premier of our Province and leading his party into a general election shoNed he was completely out of touch with realism, showed complete irresponsibility in his policies and the policies of his party. B'V.t the people of our Province are no longer naive, they can recognize that these policies could not work. They were going to pave all the roads in the Province. Money from where? AN HON. ~~ER: Are you not going to do that? MR. MORGA!'<: They were going to bring in a pharmacare programme. They were going to place a freeze on hydro rates.

They were going to abolish school taxes. They were going to bring back mothers' allowances. AN HON. !-~EMBER: MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. !1EMBERS: MR. !10RGAN: from? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. S?EAKER: (Simms) MR. MORGAN: Right. They were going to do all these things, Hear, hear! - but where was the money going to come Oh, oh! Order, please! h~ere was the money going to come from?

And on top of that I listened to the Leader of the Opposition who was aspiring to become premier, who came back from his position in Ottawa as a Member of Parliament and I am assuming he was given advice by his colleagues in the Liberal Party, when he promised he was going to build hospitals in Channel-Port aux Basques, a new hospital in Placentia, a new hospital in Clarenviile, a new hospital in Bonavista, and an extension for the hospital in Grand Falls. He was going to do all this, Mr. Speaker, 2134

August 15, 1979 Tape 843 RT-2 MR. HORGAN: but when asked by a very good reporter, a commonsense reporter, "But, Mr. Leader, where will the Itcney come from?" "Oh, I do r.ot know where the money will come from; I will have to get in to assess the situation financially of the Province." At the same time, he confirms in debate t.'lat he had read five previous budgets of this assembly, of this previous administration. MR. STIRLING: A point of order. l1R. MORGAN: So it shows, Mr. Speaker, the - MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Point of order. MR. HORGAN: - irresponsibility - MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised.

The hon. member for Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: By way of information - I was following the President of the Council - Are we on the Budget debate? Are these things relevant to the Social Services Committee? A.."i HON. MEMBER: l'.R. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: hon. Minister of Lands and Forests. MR. l10RGAN: No. Mr. Speaker, to that point of order - Speaking to th~ point of order, the - we are debating the concurrence reports of the estimates committees dealing with the spending of monies by this Government.

We are dealing with the spending of funds allocated for different depar~.ents, in this case the Social Services field- MR. NEARY: Sit down, sit down! HR. MORGAJ.'i: -and we are talking about the spending of these dollars. Therefore, we have to speak accordingly in regard to managing the Province's fiscal affairs. 11R.

SPEAKER: With respect to the point of order, the point of relevancy, I will repeat again, is sometimes difficult to determine but I will remind all hon. members participating in this debate that we are, indeed, discussing the - it is a concurrence motion to concur with the report of the Social Services Committee who debated the estimates and discussed the estimates of the Department of Justice, the 2135

August 15, 1979 Tape 843 RT-3 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Department of Health, the Department of Education, the Department of Consumer Affairs and Environment, and the Department of Social Services, and 1 would like to suggest to hon. members that they keep their comments pertinent,at least,to that particular point. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Lands and Forests. MR. MORGAN: Agreed, Hr. Speaker. I fully agree with your ruling and I am confident your rulings will always be wise rulings in this House. Mr.

Speaker, in talking about the unrealistic attitude of ~~e opposing party who aspired to become the government of this Province, you know it is fortunate,in my view,that that party did not become the administration - SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: - because I look at the t·.J....-m:::>il on the other side and I look at the conflicting statements by difference members of the Opposition in the estimates debates. MR. STIRLING: A point of order. MR. MORGAN: For example, Mr. Speaker- HR. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised by the hon. member for Bonavista North. MR. MORGAN: What? MR.

STIRLING: A point of order, !1r. Speaker. When you ruled on the point of order, for ~~e last number of minutes the member has not returned to the subject. He has again continued to attack the Opposition. MR. NEARY: He is ~~umbing his nose at Your Honour. Thumbing his nose. 21.36

August 15, 1979 Tape No. 844 MR. SPEAKER (Simms ) : To the point of order, again let me repeat what I said a few moments ago on the same particular ruling but I will also suggest to han. members that I believe I have allowed other han. members in this debate to be very flexible and I would ask the hon. Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. Morgan) to continue his remarks. HR. MORGAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. NM- l Now, Mr.

Speaker, it is sort of a turmoil situation because I have sat back and listened to the speakers in the Opposition, in particular, and listened to the good points made by some members from the government side of the House of Assembly, Particularly I recall the suggestions put forward by certain speakers, like,for example 1 the Chairman of the Resource Estimates Committee regarding the establishment of a fund whereby the private sector could invest for development of our resources, a good suggestion.

I listened to other suggestions as well, but looking at the Opposition members, the conflicting statements being made. ~he han. gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) stands up and says, "The Province's debt is a greater burden on the Province today. " MR. NEARY: So it is. Right. MR. MORGAN: His colleague next to him stands up, the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir and says, "You are not spending enough money. You are not spending enough money. You are not going out and building roads and building schools and putting in water and sewer. You are not doing these things.

We are talking about social services, you are not doing enough for the social services programmes." But the same time his other colleague stands and say, "Oh, you have borrowed too much and you have the Province too much in debt." Now, Mr. Speaker, speaking about being relevant in this debate, I sat and listened yesterday