Manitoba Hansard — 20 June 1995 (Sitting 21, 36th Legislature, 1st Session)

36-1-21

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLV No. 21 -1:30 p.m., Tuesday, June 20, 1995

Name ASHTON, Steve BARREIT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Alben, Hon. DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-sixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Afriliation Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste. Rose Seine River Rob lin-Russell Selkirk Concordia .

Anhur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Pion The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norben St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Ponage Ia Prairie Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Tunle Mountain Fon Garry Swan River lBm N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

2109 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, June 20, 1995 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson of Committees): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Morris (Mr. Pitura), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS TR Labs Bon.

James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I have a ministerial statement to make. It was my pleasure today to participate in an event at TR Labs in Winnipeg as they announced the establishment of leading-edge telecommunications research technology with the highest speed research test bed in Canada. This technology represents an exciting new advance for TR Labs apd for Manitoba's telecommunications industry, which, as we know, is one of the fastest growing industries in this province, with virtually unlimited growth and job creation potential.

This latest technology keeps Manitoba in the forefront of technology and positions Manitoba as a continued leader in telecommunications and multimedia services in Canada and the world. With this new link to the information highway, TR Labs will be in a prime position to conduct research and develop applications which will enable service providers to better understand the needs of customers and capabilities of the information highway.

This latest advance in research capabilities, which is being conducted in association with the Manitoba Telephone System, AT&T Network Systems Canada and the University of Manitoba gives our province world-class research capabilities which will open new doors to new opportunities for growth and job creation. *

(1335) Manitoba is the call centre capital of Canada. Our government has been committed to seeing this industry grow and prosper because we know it is a sector which is capable of creating opportunities for Manitobans and attracting new wealth-generating companies to our province. The sort of project undertaken by TR Labs and its partners will enhance Manitoba's leadership in telecommunications technology and research in North America. We are pleased to congratulate TR Labs and its partners in this exciting new initiative. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, we would be pleased to join with the members opposite in congratulating this company in the development of new research and development facilities in Manitoba. We are concerned that such support undergird the capacity of our publicly owned telephone system and make it an even more important resource for Manitobans in the future.

We would also underscore the need, Madam Speaker, for universities and colleges to receive appropriate long-term core support for original research and development which, unfortunately, has not been forthcoming either from the federal government or from this government to undergird the pure research capacity of the province. Nevertheless, we welcome the potential for new jobs and wish the employees and staff of TR Labs well.

2110 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 20, 1995 TABLING OF REPORTS Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Crown Corporations Public Review and Accountability Act): Madam Speaker, I would like to table the 1994 Annual Report for the Crown Corporations Council. Bon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Madam Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report 1993- 94 for Housing, Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation, Manitoba Housing Authority.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us today Mr. Tomislav Bosnjak, Consul-General of the Republic of Croatia. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you. Also seated in the public gallery we have thirty-five Grades 7 and 8 students from Border Valley School under the direction of Mr. Jack Enns. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck). We have thirty Grade 5 students from Beaumont School under the direction of Mrs.

Tannis Nadurak. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Ernst). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Winnipeg Arena Business Plan Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the First Minister. Madam Speaker, in a letter to City Council yesterday, the chief commissioner indicates to council members that the Premier has committed to Mr. Asper that the $17-million shortfall would be made up by the so-called public sector.

The Premier, of course, has committed $37 million to the new facility. The city has committed $37 million and other infrastructure cost to the new arena, and the federal government has only committed $20 million. Can the Premier indicate today, in light of the fact that $37 million is well over his election promise that he made throughout the campaign-<:ould he table today the business plan to make up the $17 -million shortfall that the Premier has committed to Mr. Asper? Bon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): We continue to work with the federal government to persuade them that they ought to be equal partners in this development, and we continue to have various areas in which we believe they can provide additional resources to meet their equal commitment. Secondarily, we have indicated to our partners that we are also prepared to sell naming rights and the clock in the arena for a substantial contribution to the development of the arena. *

(1340) Mr. Doer: Again, we do not have a business plan from the government to deal with the $17-million shortfall, Madam Speaker. Winnipeg Jets Commitment to Stay Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I have a further question to the Premier. On June 23 of 1993, the Premier indicated: If there is going to be any public investment in a new facility, it would be conditional on us having an absolute, ironclad commitment by the owners of the team that the team must stay here for at least a 20-year period.

In light of the fact that we can read no ironclad wording in any agreements that we have seen so far, can the Premier today table the ironclad agreement that he has with the new owners of the hockey team, that this team will stay in Winnipeg for 20 years, so that we

June 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2111 do not go through these continuous deadlines that we have in the last number of months. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the member knows full well that none of the agreements have been reduced to legal wording at this point.

The member knows as well that we have imposed the same conditions on the new ownership group as we would have on the previous ownership group with respect to that, and that is that the franchise would be put up as collateral on the lease on the arena so that there would be an assurance of either having control of the team or having the team there for a period of time under other ownership. Winnipeg Arena Tender Process Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, the government has set a number of so-called deadlines and used those deadlines to justify certain decisions they have made: a deadline of June 30; a deadline of December, the MEC plan would have to be concluded; a deadline in February; a deadline of May 1; a deadline that then changed to May 6; a further deadline articulated by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) that because the new facility would have to be started at the beginning of July, they could not tender. Madam Speaker, we have a letter today from Mr.

Frost who indicates that the new deadline for the start of the construction has moved to August 16, which contradicts what the Minister of Finance has told us previously about why they did not tender. Would the Premier please today allow for the public tendering process to take place in light of the fact that the taxpayers of Manitoba, the City of Winnipeg and the federal government are responsible for $111 million, 100 percent of the cost? Can we have a process that is 100 percent public sector and have a public-sector tendering process as we should have? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition should be careful in terms of the misinformation and disinformation that he continues to put on the record. Almost all of those so-called deadlines that he referred to were ones that were imposed by the transactions among the various private-sector partners in the agreement. They were all contained within offers of purchase options and everything else. They were not deadlines that were imposed by this administration, and he should not be so dishonest as to put that on the record. With respect to- *

(1345) Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, on a point of order, the Premier has yet again used unparliamentary language. He referenced dishonest, and we would ask that he withdraw that remark. That is most defmitely unparliamentary and uncalled for. Madam Speaker: On the point of order by the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), I indeed did not hear the context in which the word was used, so I will review Hansard and report back to the House with a ruling if necessary. *** Mr.

Filmon: Concluding my response, Madam Speaker- Madam Speaker: To quickly finish his response, the honourable First Minister. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the member opposite should be aware that the process by which the general contractor was selected was a competitive bid process in which four different organizations were invited to bid and that they continue to award almost all areas of subcontract by a competitive bid process which can be verified by speaking with any of the contractors who are receiving those contracts. Pediatric Cardiac Care Program Inquest Mr.

Gord Mackintosh (St Johns): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice.

2112 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 20, 1995 Yesterday I asked whether the government recognized a conflict of interest, given that the inquest into the Health Sciences Centre infant deaths and the role of this government was being conducted by lawyers of this very same government and of her department. The minister said the concern was incredible. In fact, worse things were said.

My question to the minister is, would the minister now acknowledge that a conflict does indeed exist, given the expectation that the families of the infants are filing a civil suit against this very same government which this minister's department will be called on to defend, therefore unquestionably giving the government a stake in the inquest findings. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, my comments yesterday stand today. Manitoba's highest court recently considered an allegation of conflict of interest by Crown attorneys.

The Court of Appeal said, and I quote: The Attorney General is in a unique position, one quite unlike that of a member of the private bar. It is no answer beyond political window-dressing to retain outside counsel. However her agents may be, whether her permanent staff or outside special appointments, they must function under the Attorney General's direction. Those are the comments of the Court of Appeal, Madam Speaker. They do not see a conflict. Mr.

Mackintosh: Given the inapplicability of this case to the inquest, would the minister explain why some of her employees will have conduct of the inquest and decide what is or is not relevant information, when some of her employees and her own department, particularly the Chief Medical Examiner's office, will be the subject of the inquest. Mrs.

Vodrey: Madam Speaker, as I said yesterday, first of all, the Crown attorneys who have been assigned to assist the judge in fact-finding are, in fact, professional individuals, and I am sure the member would not want to cast any question upon the behaviour of our Crown attorneys. The judge in this case, Associate Chief Judge Sinclair, is responsible for dealing with the parameters. My main concern, Madam Speaker, is to see that all of the relevant facts are uncovered, and I am completely satisfied that the senior Crown attorneys can assist the judge in doing this. Mr.

Mackintosh: I ask the minister, is it this government's policy to disregard not just the recommendations of the Honourable Archie Dewar following the Ticketgate matter, but the conclusions of Judge Sinclair himself in the Osborne and Harper inquiry where the AJI recommends, regarding government lawyers at inquests, quote: The government cannot defend its actions and present a version while at the same time purporting to assess independently and present all the available evidence.

Madam Speaker, does this government concur with the recommendation that whenever a government agency or department's actions are to be scrutinized at an inquest, counsel conducting the inquest should be independent of government? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, the quote which I gave, the ruling to which I refer comes from Manitoba's highest court, Manitoba's Court of Appeal. Manitoba's Court of Appeal suggests that what the member is asking for is window-dressing. We are not interested in window-dressing. We, in fact, are interested [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable Minister of Justice, to quickly complete her response. *

(1350) Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, I would say to Manitobans, again, that the purpose of our Crown attorneys, very senior Crowns who have been assigned to this case, is to assist the judge in fact-finding. The judge has set the parameters, very wide parameters for the inquest, and we will certainly be looking to participate in every way. Forest Fires Firefighting Resources Mr. Stan Struthers (Da uphin): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Natural Resources.

June 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2113 I would first like to congratulate all those involved in the safe evacuation of the communities of South Indian Lake and Gods Lake Narrows. I would also like to acknowledge the efforts of all the firefighting crews, resources staff and volunteers who are working tirelessly in difficult weather conditions to keep the fire situation under control. On several occasions this minister has assured the House that there were adequate resources in place to deal with the forest fire situation.

Judging from the weather conditions and from the situation in other provinces, one could see that the potential was there for multiple fire starts, as was the case over the weekend. Natural Resources officials are now having to pull back firefighting crews- Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am certain the honourable member for Dauphin has a question. Mr. Struthers: Can the minister tell the House what his plans are to get more equipment in place in northern Manitoba so that the safety of front-line fire crews can be assured? Bon.

Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I, once again, want to congratulate and compliment our firefighting crews out there who are doing a yeoman's job as I mentioned yesterday. Madam Speaker, we have equipment, we have professional people out there who are doing the best they can. One thing we cannot control is the environment itself, the temperatures the way they have been for the last 1 0 days, the lightning strikes tha! we had. We had another 20 fires start yesterday. We are managing to control as much of it as we can.

I think we are fortunate that we have only had to evacuate two communities to date. With a little bit of break in the weather, we will be able to have those people go back and not have to evacuate any more. Mr. Struthers: Madam Speaker, can the minister then explain to the House what measures are being taken to prepare for the rest of the fire season, given that it is only June and it is so far the worst year for forest fires on record. Mr. Driedger: Madam Speaker, it is not in my hands as to what will happen weatherwise between now and the fall. Normally, towards the end of August, our fire season tapers off.

I have no indication of what will happen. If we get cool weather, if we get rains, the situation improves dramatically, but next to 1989, this is probably one of the worst years that we are facing right now. We are hopeful that the weather conditions will change and the situation will improve. Mr. Struthers: Instead of oftloading onto Mother Nature, could the minister tell the House why there is such a lack of equipment that trained fire crews, including graduates from the Brandon Fire College, are going unutilized in one of the worst forest fire years in our province's history? Mr.

Driedger: Madam Speaker, I think the member does an injustice to the very qualified people we have out in the field there by making those kinds of statements. We have professional people out there who are doing a yeoman's job out there, and for him to make that kind of insinuation, I think he should apologize to the people who are out there in this kind of weather fighting the fire. Madam Speaker, we have 700 people who are actively fighting fires out there. We have in the area of 70-some odd pieces of equipment that are being used.

I think the member should ascertain some of his facts before he makes those kinds of statements here. Railway Industry Federal Regulations Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Highways and Transportation. The federal government is selling off CN and now is making it easier for both railways to abandon rail lines

2114 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 20, 1995 with the new legislation introduced today. This bill goes far beyond allowing short lines that will make many shippers captive to a single railroad. My question is, what position has this government taken or will this government take on this issue, which, in effect, ends almost all regulatory power over railways in this country? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, as I have mentioned to the member previously, our mission is to be sure that we have two competitive railways able to offer services to shippers across Canada.

Certainly the federal government has taken some strong initiatives in the way they are allowing the railroads to unfold that opportunity in the future, and, Madam Speaker, we have proposed that common running rights be part of the process to allow short lines to be able to competitively offer services to shippers. Unfortunately, that is not part of the bill that the federal government has brought in at this point, as we understand it. But we do support very strongly the ability of short line railroads to be in the business of helping shippers offer services on rail.

This Legislature passed it, and the Manitoba railway act came into effect here on July I, 1994. *

(1355) Rail Line Abandonment Cost to Farmers Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Madam Speaker, my supplementary question is, does the minister have a rough estimate of the anticipated added cost which will be put on Manitoba farmers and municipalities in the wake of the anticipated rail line abandonment? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, that is a very difficult question to answer, the anticipated cost. There has been a lot of railway abandonment over the last 25 years.

An awful lot of goods and services that go into and out of towns come now on trucks, in other words, on roads as opposed to rail. So the process has been ongoing for some period of time. Very clearly, municipalities are impacted, and UMM and SARM and the Alberta Union of Municipalities have advocated very strongly that they receive some support from the federal government, because roads will be impacted because of less rail being used by the main lines, and, certainly, the three provinces have asked for the same consideration.

The exact figure, it is very difficult to give the member a figure because of all the variables involved. Railway Industry Bayline Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Madam Speaker, my final supplementary is, can the minister, or for that matter, can anyone be optimistic over the success of the bayline as a short line when the Gateway North report, among others, pointed out necessary upgrades which the federal government has not agreed to fund. Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, I and this government remain optimistic in terms of Churchill and future capabilities of being able to make the bayline and the port active. Additional tourism, supply to the Keewatin district, all of those aspects are part of the package. Gateway North has put together a proposal to the federal government.

To my knowledge, the federal government has not responded to that proposal, but we endorse Gateway North and the proposal they put forward to the federal government for consideration of both maintaining the line and the port, and I am optimistic that that opportunity will happen. Canada-U.S. Commission on Grains Chairperson Resignation Request Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, the Canadian Wheat Board has played a very important role in the economy of this province and, in fact, western Canada. We on this side are very concerned with the activities of the international joint

June 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2115 commission which is reviewing the grain industry in this country. Madam Speaker, the co-chair of the commission, Mr. Jim Miller, has been hired by the U.S. International Association of Wheat Growers, an organization which has long lobbied to undermine the Canadian Wheat Board. I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture if he agrees that Mr. Miller is in a conflict position and should be asked to resign from the position of co-chair of this committee that is reviewing the grain industry. Bon.

Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, this is an important commission that is dealing with a very important issue. Both Canada and the United States are sovereign nations. They appoint to these commissions and groups like this people whom they have confidence in. It is not for Canada to object to that particular person's position on that commission. I am assuming he is there because of his knowledge of the American grains industry.

I am satisfied that we have equally qualified people representing Canadian interests, and I am pleased to report to the House it is my expectation to be meeting with one of them later on this afternoon. Federal Inquiry Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): I hope that at the minister's meeting with the commission, he will defend the Wheat Board when he meets with them- Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for Swan River that, indeed, for a supplementary question, there is to be no

preamble. Would the member please pose her question now? Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, in light of the fact that the commission has been very selective in whom they have been meeting with and clearly meeting with people who are against the board, will the minister contact the federal Minister of Agriculture and ask that he call for an inquiry into the activities of the board to ensure that the Canadian Wheat Board is being viewed fairly? Bon.

Harry Eons (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, this, of course, is not the first time that this issue has been brought to the floor of this Chamber by both the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) and my Agriculture critic. I marvel at how much information they seem to have on a report that has yet to be released to either the American government or, indeed, to our Canadian government. There have been presentations made, representations made, but the reports have not officially been released to either of the governments.

I await that report, and I will be more than happy to report to this House and to anybody else with respect to the recommendations that are contained therein. *

(1400) Canadian Wheat Board Minister's Position Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): In light of the fact that farmers clearly indicate that they want the Wheat Board maintained, I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture if he will take a strong position when he is meeting with representatives of this commission and make a very strong statement that the Wheat Board is what the Canadian farmers want and that it must be protected. Bon.

Harry Eons (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I do not wish to unnecessarily offend the honourable member for Swan River, but she presumes that indeed she and/or the Canadian Wheat Board in all instances speaks for the Canadian or Manitoba farmer. I happen to know that uppermost in the Manitoba farmer's mind-particularly in this coming post-WGT A era, the most important issue to that farmer is markets and price, and the Canadian Wheat Board has to demonstrate its ongoing capability of providing that service to the Canadian grain farmer.

2116 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 20, 1995 Winnipeg Development Agreement Project Selection Criteria Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, the objective of the $6-million strategic initiatives program of the Winnipeg Development Agreement funded by all three levels of government is, and I quote: To identify and fund feasibility analyses and planning activities required to pursue potential projects of strategic importance to Winnipeg's sustainable economic development.

I would like to ask the Minister of Urban Affairs, what specific projects have requested funding under this initiative, and could a project receive money from all three levels of government? Bon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): The Winnipeg Development Agreement has some very broad goals in its achievements, in its parameters of

interpretation. As mentioned by the member for Wellington, it is to assist the people in job opportunities where necessary and to find out where there is potential for future employment. It is also there for the creation of a safe and healthy environment, for the sound community in which to live and work and do business. These are the types of programs that also are looked at for creating long-term employment by focusing on future industrial growth areas. The parameters of selection, as the member for Wellington has mentioned, are within the purview of the three levels of government.

It is an ongoing process of evaluation as projects come forth. It is a five-year program. There is the long-term gains of analysis that are brought forth from tim� to time on various aspects. Arena Funding Ms. Becky Barrett (WeUington): Again, the minister has not answered. Could the minister indicate whether the strategic initiative or any other Winnipeg Development Agreement program money is being considered as a source for the private sector, Spirit of Manitoba, to fund any of its activities? Bon.

Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): To the best of my knowledge the Winnipeg Development fund is not involved, but I will take that question as notice for further analysis. Ms. Barrett: The minister then perhaps could answer this question or take it as notice as well. Could any of the Winnipeg Development Agreement funds be accessed by the public sector, given the current $17-million shortfall in the funding for the Winnipeg Jets arena at The Forks? Mr. Reimer: I will take that question as notice. Gaming Commission Access to Information Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier (Mr. Filmon). According to a very confidential report, it is estimated that 32 percent, that is almost one-third, of the clients of the AFM gambling program tried to kill themselves last year.

My question for the Premier is, given the enormous social costs that have been underestimated consistently by this government, will the Premier release a report prepared by the Awareness and Information Unit of the AFM entitled, Clients of the AFM Gambling Program and Callers to the Provincial Problem Gambling Help Line: A Statistical Profile, given that presenters at Monday's gambling hearings can have access to information which will allow them to make the most informed and constructive presentations possible. Bon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, it is my understanding that a researcher for the Liberal caucus was in the offices of the Desjardins commission where they came upon this report that was being prepared for the Desjardins commission. That is the basis upon which this information now is being asked by way of blockbuster questioning here by the member for Inkster.

June 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2117 My understanding is that the raw data which is contained in this material that was prepared for the Desjardins commission indicates that in the past three years 21 of the people questioned-and there were a total of 49-had attempted suicide at some point in the previous three years. The remainder of the 49 people, some 28, had attempted suicide before the introduction of the VL Ts to the province. The AFM report is raw data.

It has not been analyzed by experts but fits with the kind of information that is contained in the Volberg report which suggests that people who are addicted to gambling are compulsive personalities who also have other addictions, oftentimes alcohol, drugs and other things that lead them to this kind of predisposition. It is part of the research that is being developed for the Desjardins commission.

One of the reasons why the Desjardins commission is acquiring this kind of knowledge and information is so that they can make rational and informed recommendations to government rather than just trying to create a cheap political issue. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, if the Premier is not prepared- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member for Inkster please pose a question now. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, if the Premier is not prepared to release the report, can he indicate to this House that the gambling committee does have the authority to release this report so that people and individuals, interest groups and so forth have the report and the statistical information that is necessary in order to complete a presentation? Will he make the commitment that the gambling committee does have the authority to do this? Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the short answer to it is, of course, yes. We have placed no restrictions on the Desjardins commission.

They have, in fact, commissioned this kind of information. The net effect of the question that is being put by the member for Inkster is that he has a group of people associated with his political party that have a pre determined idea of what outcome should come from this kind of commission and what kind of information should be provided, and they just need this research to confirm their opinions. This is not the kind of thing that the Desjardins commission is doing. They are trying to obtain valuable and informed decision making by virtue of proper research and proper information gathering.

They are not doing this for the kind of political purposes alluded to by the member for Inkster. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, can the Premier then indicate whether or not the gambling committee has the authority also to look into matters with respect to the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation, things such as the five-year capital plan and so forth? If the response to that is yes, and I hope it is, do they have the authority again to release that information to the public? Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, I repeat, we have placed no limitations on the Desjardins commission's access to information that will be important to them in making their recommendations to government and arriving at their conclusions. Winnipeg Jets/Arena Donations-Tax Deductibility Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance. Both the minister and the City of Winnipeg have confirmed that the Spirit of Manitoba is still actively seeking charitable status for the Jets endowment fund.

Yet, Revenue Minister Anderson, and I want to table this quote from Hansard, in response to a question in the federal House said, and I quote: It has been determined over a fairly lengthy series of court cases that an organization entirely for the promotion of a sport is not a charitable organization. I would like to ask the minister then, does this government still support the seeking of charitable status for a foundation to cover Jets losses?

2118 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 20, 1995 Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, without accepting any of the

preamble of the member for Crescentwood, he knows full well that this is an issue being dealt with by the Spirit of Manitoba and Revenue Canada of the federal government. They will be making their applications to the federal government on any tax rulings that they believe they can qualify for. Revenue Canada will make their determinations and make their decisions, and the Spirit of Manitoba will have to accept those and deal with the kind of structure, ultimately, that they put in place and they feel is in the best interest of the long-term viability of the Spirit of Manitoba Mr.

Sale: Madam Speaker, does the government then support the City of Winnipeg's use of its charitable status as a loophole to achieve the same objective by different means? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, again, any discussions that the Spirit of Manitoba is having with the federal government Revenue Canada in terms of tax rulings, any discussions that they are having with the City of Winnipeg, they will continue to have as they pursue avenues in terms of structuring their financial agreement. They will live within the decisions made by all levels of government as to what they do and they do not qualify for.

Plain and simple, they will qualify for what they are entitled to qualify for and nothing more than that. *

(1410) Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will this government then seek independent legal counsel advice on this issue of charitable status and finally take a morally defensible stance on the question of using charitable status to cover professional hockey losses? Mr. Stefanson: Unlike the member for Crescentwood and unlike the NDP, we are not continually trying to throw roadblocks in front of the Spirit of Manitoba to find a solution to keep the Winnipeg Jets here in Manitoba. We value the $50 million of economic benefit they bring to our province.

We value the $6 million annually of tax revenue they bring directly to the Treasury here in Manitoba. We value the $10 million and the 2,000 jobs that will be created if and when an arena is built. We, unlike the NDP, do not want to see the Winnipeg Jets playing down in Minneapolis, but we know what their view is on the issue. The Spirit of Manitoba are entitled to apply for different rulings. They are doing those kinds of things.

Decisions will be made by various levels of government as they relate to the Spirit and whether or not they qualify, but we, unlike the NDP, will not each and every day try to find roadblocks to stop the Jets from staying here in Manitoba. We want to see them stay in our province, Madam Speaker. Lockport, Manitoba Dead Fish Cleanup Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings).

Madam Speaker, Selkirk and Lockport residents deserve quick action to clean up the 2,000-plus freshwater drum which are trapped by the locks, all this at a time when nearly 40 percent of Selkirk's drinking water is coming from the Red River. My question for the minister: Has the provincial government come to an agreement with the federal government to get this cleaned up? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, my understanding is that we have a private organization that has undertaken to clean up the dead fish. Red River Drinking Water Source Mr.

Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, my supplementary question is to the Minister of Environment. Is his department confident that treated Red River water is safe to drink?

June 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2119 Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, this is not a humorous question and one that we take very seriously. Let me assure the member that it certainly would be my expectation that the usual precautions are being taken to make sure that there has not been any change in the water quality. If he has any different information, I would be glad to hear it. Selkirk Water Project Phase II Funding Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, my final question is for the Minister of Rural Development.

My question is, has the province received word yet whether the federal government will uphold their share of the second phase of the Selkirk water project, so residents will no longer have to use the Red River as an emergency source of drinking water. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Madam Speaker, as the member knows, our government has participated in the PAMWI agreement for the various communities in Manitoba.

Unfortunately, the federal government has indicated they will not be living up to the $90-million commitment that was agreed to in the beginning, that indeed the program will be reduced by $10 million or almost $10 million. Officials in our departments are still working with federal officials to try and encourage the federal government to live up to its commitment so that we can continue not only with the project in Selkirk but other projects throughout the province as well. U Diversity of Manitoba Sexual Harassment Report Ms.

Diane McGiff ord (Osborne): Yesterday, the dean of arts at the University of Manitoba released some details from a report on a chilly climate for women in the Political Studies department. The dean went on to say that despite very serious allegations of harassment, he could not release the full report because to do so would violate confidentiality and compromise due process. My first question is for the Minister responsible for the Status ofWomen (Mrs. Vodrey).

Is the minister satisfied with these actions, and is she satisfied that the correct remedial steps have been taken to restore women's faith in the reputation of the Political Studies department? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): I should indicate to the member that I have asked for a copy of the report. I understand that it has now arrived in my office. I have not yet had a chance to read it, but I have written to the president of the university asking for a meeting to discuss this topic further because I do appreciate and understand what the member is saying.

We certainly do not wish to see faculties in which women feel, for whatever reason, that they are not welcomed as full and equal partners in the faculty. So I have written that, sent off just before Question Period, and I look to obtain more information and have further dialogue on that very sensitive issue. Ms. McGifford: My second question is for the Minister of Education. Will the minister now take steps to ensure that the full report is released to the campus human rights officer and to the sexual harassment officer? Mrs.

Mcintosh: Again, I thank the member for the question because, certainly, what we are looking for here is a full resolution. We are looking for answers to questions that will ensure that women, students or faculty at the University of Manitoba have no cause for discomfort of any kind in terms of their being received as equals. I will certainly take her question and commentary to me as constructive suggestion, and I look forward to my dialogue with the president when he receives my letter. I will keep in mind her helpful comments in this regard.

2120 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 20, 1995 Ms. McGifford: Has the Minister of Education consulted with the Minister responsible for the Status of Women (Mrs. Vodrey) to together ensure that a safe, harassment-free environment for students and faculty members exists at the University of Manitoba? Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, absolutely.

The Minister responsible for the Status of Women and this minister, indeed other cabinet ministers and caucus members of our government, are all very concerned about the treatment that people in our society receive, in this instance the women of Manitoba in terms ofbeing afforded full and equal status, not just in verbiage but in reality. Certainly, the minister and I have had many conversations on this type of topic and on this one in particular.

We will be doing all that we can to ensure that there is never again an opportunity for any female member to feel that for whatever reason she is not welcome on faculty as a full member. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. *

(1420) MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE Gambling Help Line and VLT Revenue Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, under Rule 27 .(I), I would like to move a motion requesting debate on a matter of urgent public importance. Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded by the member for St. Boniface (Mr.

Gaudry), that under Rule 27 the ordinary business of the House be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely the immediate release of the report which offers a statistical profile of the callers to the provincial problem gambling help line and also information which gives the financial breakdown of VL T revenue on a community-by-community basis so that presenters at Monday's gambling hearings are informed of all of the relevant and useful facts when making presentations. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Before recognizing the honourable member for Inkster, I believe I should remind all honourable members that under our Rule 27 .(2), the mover of a motio1;1 on a matter of urgent public importance and one member of each of the parties in the House is allowed not more than five minutes to explain the urgency of debating the matter immediately. As stated in Beauchesne's Citation 390, urgency in this context means the urgency of immediate debate, not of the subject matter of that motion.

In their remarks, members should focus exclusively on whether or not there is urgency of debate and whether or not the ordinary opportunities for debate will enable the House to consider the matter early enough to ensure that the public interest will not suffer. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I will just start off by indicating, of course, in order for every member to be able to contribute to the debate, that both the throne and budget debates have gone through and there is no legislation that is before us that would allow all members to be able to speak to this today or before the committee hearing on Monday.

Madam Speaker, I rise today on a matter of urgent public importance. I wish to explain to this House why this matter is sufficiently urgent that it should displace the ordinary business of the House. [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am experiencing great difficulty in hearing the honourable member for Inkster. I wonder if I might request the co-operation of those members holding meetings to do so outside the Chamber. Mr.

Lamoureux: As I have noted in my questions of yesterday and today, there is a serious problem with the lack of information being made available to the public concerning the operations and impact of the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation. Gambling is one of the most important and divisive issues in the province today. It is important that Manitobans have the opportunity to

June 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2121 make meaningful contributions to the consultative process and not merely to be part of a public relations exercise. With the public hearings being held across the province by the gaming policy review working group, it is more important than ever that the veil of secrecy that has surr ounded the Lotteries Corporation be lifted. This matter must be debated immediately because the last set of hearings are scheduled for Monday, June 26, only six days from now.

This may be the last opportunity we have to ensure that the concerned Manitobans making presentations to the working group on this contentious issue have the information they need to make a meaningful presentation. Madam Speaker, if the Lotteries Corporation and the Addictions Foundation fail to make public the information that they have about gambling and its impact on our communities, how can Manitobans comment effectively on the direction they believe we should be taking to be able to judge the impact of gambling. Manitobans must know what it is doing to their province.

Madam Speaker, we have been calling on the government for months to produce a community-by community breakdown of VL T revenues. They have failed to produce that. The length of delay is unacceptable. One of the most useful reports on gambling, the Volberg report, has never been issued publicly except in a heavily edited form.

Now we have learned that the document produced by the information and awareness branch of the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba entitled Clients of the AFM Gambling Program and Callers to the Provincial Problem Gambling Help Line: A Statistical Profile and I quote, is an internal document and will not be made available to the public. This document contains valuable information on some of the more tragic social effects that gambling is having on the people of Manitoba This is precisely the kind of information that people need to have in order to assess the impact that the gambling is having on their communities.

Madam Speaker, the Lotteries Corporation spends millions of dollars advertising on television, in newspapers and on billboards telling Manitobans they are making good things happen, but there is another side to gambling. The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation is also making some terribly tragic things happen. We know that, according to the Addictions Foundation report I mentioned earlier, 32 percent of people being treated for gambling problems last year tried to kill themselves. We know from this same report 14 percent of the callers to gambling hotline have turned to crime to support their habit.

Manitobans must know both sides of the gambling story. The gambling policy review working group was charged with the responsibility of examining all aspects of gaming in the province. To recommend future policy direction, the working group needs to hear how Manitobans feel about the impact that gambling is having on their communities and their province. Manitobans cannot comment effectively if vital information is withheld from them. Time is running out, Madam Speaker.

I want to ask this government to ensure that community-by community breakdown of VL T revenues, an unedited version of the Volberg report and the report from the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba entitled Clients of the AFM Gambling Program and Callers to the Provincial Problem Gambling Help Line: A Statistical Profile be released to the public immediately. Manitobans do not want the working group's report to be an exercise in rationalization or a whitewash. They want this working group to answer some of the very important questions surrounding the issue of gambling.

This government has the opportunity to ensure that this happens. I trust and hope that we will receive support from all members of this Chamber to ensure that this debate is allowed to occur today. Thank you. *

(1430) Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, first of all, I would like to address the urgency of the issue and the issue in general, because we certainly have raised questions in this House about lack of information that is available, not only in terms of the type of information the member for Inkster is talking about but even the most basic thing of not

2122 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 20, 1995 having a breakdown made available m terms of lotteries expenditures by community. The government has been promising data on a basis that they call, as soon as possible. Of course, Madam Speaker, this is the same government that has not called hearings on the Lotteries commission for close to two years. That is unacceptable-[interjection] Well, for the member opposite, it has been that long-two yearS.

Conveniently, just going into an election, the government did not want to have a discussion on lotteries, and, Madam Speaker, I do not think the government wants complete information or discussion on lotteries issues now either. That is why it is like pulling teeth trying to get information out of this government, and as the member for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux) pointed out, even information that is out there that has been produced, that is being made available, presumably for the commission, is not available for members of the public, and the government wonders why the process they are looking at, the working group, currently is receiving few submissions. Madam Speaker, we believe it is an urgent matter to get that information to the public.

Unless the public has full information, the process we are seeing now, the working group, which is a fine group of people, I make no criticism of that, headed by a very distinguished former member of the Legislature whom I served with for a number of years-the fact is unless that working group has full access to the information, it cannot bring in a report that is legitimate in terms of reflecting the full views of Manitobans. We believe there is a real need to discuss this matter.

Now the next question, obviously, Madam Speaker, is in terms of the question of having a matter of urgent public importance in terms of dealing with that. As the member for Inkster pointed out, we no longer are in budget debate. We are no longer in debate in terms of the throne speech. Quite frankly, I suspect that this is an issue where if you were to canvass the House, there will be many members of this House who would very much like to debate the whole question not only of this information but in terms of lotteries.

I bet you there are a lot of other members on the government side that, given the chance, would very much like to debate this issue, because it is an issue that is dividing many Manitoba communities, certainly many rural communities in particular, where the issue is continuously being raised as the· negative social impacts on the one hand and also the question of revenue drain from communities. I know in my own community of Thompson and the communities I represent, the surrounding communities, that is one of the major concerns.

I think, Madam Speaker, that is why the only avenue that is open to us now, since this government has contin uously refused to call the Lotteries commission-we requested it last year. We requested it. Unfortunately, we are now going to have to deal with it in the fall. Since we do not have that format available, the only format available currently to debate this issue being the format of grievances going into Supply would not be appropriate.

If we wait until after the Monday hearing, the final hearing, the Winnipeg hearing, that information will not be available to members of the public and this issue will not get the full and complete examination it deserves. For that reason, Madam Speaker, we support the matter that is being proposed. We believe it would be in the public interest that we have a debate on lotteries in this House, a debate that is long overdue. So we support the request for a debate on lotteries taking place today as a matter of priority. We believe it is that important an issue. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I wonder if all the honourable members standing at the back of the Chamber would either please take their seats or leave the Chamber. I am having great difficulty hearing over the roar of these air conditioners and the distraction is most annoying. Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I .am somewhat surprised by the member for Inkster and now supported by the members of the official opposition bringing forward a matter of urgent public importance with respect to lotteries.

June 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2123 Firstly, Madam Speaker, and I seek your guidance in this regard, the proposal that they refer to refers to two issues, neither of which are under the control of the government or the Legislature. The first is a question reference the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation who have certain information, but it is a Crown corporation and there is a process to deal with Crown corporations and to seek information therefrom, both under Freedom of Information and before committees of this House when such corporations appear. Secondly, as the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) indicated during Question Period, certain information, raw data, I believe, as he referred to it, is in fact either in the purview of the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba again an arm's length organization from government or in the hands of the Desjardins commission who have in fact, as I understand it, from what the Premier said at least earlier today, requested that information be compiled. It has not been analyzed.

It is not of great value to anyone until at least there has been an analysis done by appropriate experts in this field who can at least translate for the members of the general public what this data means. ·Madam Speaker, it may mean that it is very serious. It may mean that it is not very serious. The fact of the matter is it does need that analysis by experts in order to provide that information to the general public so they then can use it and use that information to formulate their opinion.

So, Madam Speaker, I look to you to consider whether either of those items that are requested in the matter of urgent public importance are indeed under the purview of the government and/or the Legislature at all. Secondly, Madam Speaker, with respect to the matter of urgent public importance, the Liberal Party, aided and abetted by the Winnipeg Free Press, spent probably six months and perhaps as much as a year prior to the election, and then at great lengths paid day after day front-page stories with respect to this issue of gambling during the election.

They spent 35 days trying to drum up a little interest in the general public, and they flunked. They flunked then and they are flunking again now. The fact of the matter is the public has had all kinds of information provided to it, some of it accurate, some of it wholly inaccurate, including studies from alleged professors at the University of Manitoba. The public interest, Madam Speaker, has been served. It was debated for 35 days during the election and there is no way that this Legislature needs to waste its time with political ploy by the member for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux), aided and abetted by the members of the official opposition. Certainly their motion is out of order. Speaker's Ruling Madam Speaker: I thank all honourable members for their advice as to whether the motion proposed by the honourable member for Inkster should be debated today. I did receive the notice required under our subrule 27.(1). According to Rule 27 and Beauchesne's Citations 389 and 390, the two conditions required for a matter of urgent importance to proceed are: (

a) the subject matter must be so pressing that the ordinary opportunities for debate will not allow it to be brought on early enough, and (

b) it must be shown that the public interest will suffer if the matter is not given immediate attention. As I understand the argument of the honourable member for Inkster, he is of the opinion that to have an informed public make presentations to a hearing next Monday, this House needs to today debate whether a statistical report on callers to the gambling help line and whether a report on the financial breakdown of VL T revenue should be released. *

(1440) I am not convinced that the public interest will suffer if we do not set aside the business of the House today to debate the honourable member for Inkster's request.

2124 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 20, 1995 In terms of other opportunities to debate the matter, the honourable member could use the vehicle of a grievance or ask questions at the concurrent stage of the Supply process. In addition, I believe the motion raises two distinct matters, that is, release of a statistical profile of callers and provision of information on VL T revenue on a community-by-community basis. Our Rule 27.(5) prohibits this. I am therefore ruling that the motion requesting a debate on a matter of urgent public importance does not meet the criteria set by our rules and practices. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, with all due respect, I would challenge the ruling of the Chair. Madam Speaker: The ruling of the Chair having been challenged, the question before the House is shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained. Voice Vote amended as follows: the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render) for the member for River Heights (Mr. Radcliffe). [agreed] ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, would you call the government motion followed by Bill 4?

DEBATE ON GOVERNMENT MOTION New Rules 69(4) and 69(5) Madam Speaker: To resume debate on the government motion moved by the honourable government House leader, that the Rules, Orders and Forms of Proceeding of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba be amended by adding the following new rules after 69(3), standing in the name of the honourable member for Thompson. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker: All those in favour, please say yea. Madam Speaker, we have reviewed this rules change.

The normal procedure in this House for rules changes Some Honourable Members: Yea. is that they be by unanimous consent. Normally there is a fairly lengthy consultative process, and normally Madam Speaker: All those opposed, please say nay. we would anticipate that the Rules committee would have been called prior to the bringing of a rule. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Madam Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, just so it is noted that it is on division from at least two. Madam Speaker: On division. Committee Changes Mr.

Edward Helwer (Gimli): Madam Speaker, do I have leave to make a committee change? Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Gimli with committee changes. Mr. Helwer: I move, seconded by the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments be This is somewhat different in the sense that this is a rule that is being brought in really as a result of the allowances commission.

It is really nothing more than changing our rules to establish the category of vice chairperson of committees, which is a category that is identified in the allowance report for remuneration. I want to indicate that we do support this in that context. While this does not follow the normal procedu res, I do acknowledge the fact that the government House leader did consult with myself and our caucus on this. I want to indicate, too, that we would hope that we would be able to, perhaps in the fall sitting of the Legislature, be dealing with some more comprehensive rules, reforms.

There has been considerable discussion on and off for the last number of years. I do not think that is a secret to anyone. We seem to hit the point

June 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2125 where we get consensus on rules changes but then we hit the whole question of timing. Given the politics and the dynamics of this House that often does lead us not to get the unanimous degree of consent we need to proceed with rules changes.

So I want to indicate that we are not by any stretch of the imagination setting any kind of precedent with this particular motion-it is really a one-of-a-kind situation given the allowances commission-but that we in the opposition certainly look forward to some fairly extensive consideration of rules changes that we believe are in the best interests not only of the members of this Legislature but also of the public whom I think are expecting us to look at significant reforms the way we operate this House. We have not had significant rules changes since the early 1980s.

Even in the early 1980s, I would not consider them to be significant to the degree which other Legislatures have moved in terms of rules reform. So we anticipate, we certainly hope, to be able to be discussing some fairly substantive rules changes in the fall, something this incidentally is not really. It is a very minor change, but we do support it. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I also want to acknowledge, in terms of the government House leader indicating the purpose of this particular rule change, and why it is that he was seeking it.

As the member for Thompson has already indicated, this is in fact an exception, and we are pleased to be able to support what it is that the government is proposing for this particular session. As the member for Thompson has pointed out, there is no doubt a major need of reviewing all the rules that are inside the rule book. I know in the last seven years I must have sat down with numerous MLAs from the past to talk about the need to change some of the rules.

I hope and trust that discussions about the House and the procedures will take place some time in the fall, and I would hope to be included in whatever discussions there might be. I think we could look at other Legislatures across the country in terms of how they manage House business. I think there are wonderful opportunities. In fact, we had many rules that we were looking at changing. We had a fairly good group of individuals, members from all caucuses, who were sitting down. There seemed to be a consensus on a number of those rule changes.

I trust and I hope that the government will act on more substantial, permanent rule changes some time in the fall. Madam Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Madam Speaker: The motion before the House is, it has been moved by the honourable government House Leader (Mr.

Ernst), That the Rules, Orders and Forms of Proceeding of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba be amended by adding the following new rules after 69(3): 69( 4) Each standing or special committee shall elect a permanent Chairperson and a permanent Vice Chairperson at its first meeting in each Legislature, and in the case of a vacancy of either the Chairperson and/or Vice-Chairperson by reason of the incumbent dying, resigning his or her seat in the Assembly, becoming disqualified from sitting or voting in the Assembly, or resigning from the committee, the committee shall forthwith elect a successor. 69(5) If at any meeting of the committee the Chairperson is not present, the Vice-Chairperson shall act in the place of the Chairperson.

Voice Vote Madam Speaker: All those in favour, please say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Madam Speaker: All those opposed, please say nay. The motion is accordingly passed. Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Bill 4, Madam Speaker.

2126 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 20, 1995 SECOND READINGS Bill 4-The Real Property Amendment Act Bon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): I move, seconded by the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay), that Bill 4, The Real Property Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les biens reels, be now read a second time and ref erred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Ernst: Madam Speaker, I am pleased to offer at this time fo r the benefit of members of the House a brief explanation of the principles ofBill 4. Many aspects of the law of mortgages currently enf orced in Manitoba derive from English law. This includes the current rules that apply when a homeowner sells his or her home to a buyer who assumes an existing mortgage.

As the law now stands, the selling homeowner remains responsible under the mortgage and can be sued by the lender if the buyer does not pay the mortgage or otherwise def aults, even if years have passed since the property was sold and transferred to a new owner or, fo r that matter, to a second new owner. This result surprises some, but it is explained by the fa ct that a mortgage has two distinct aspects. Firstly, a mortgage is a promise by a borrower to a lender to repay the amount loaned together with interest.

Secondly, a mortgage gives the lender an interest in the mortgaged property as security fo r that loan. As a result, if the borrower does not repay the loan, the lender can sell or take over ownership of the mortgaged property through sale and fo reclosure proceedings. In light of the fo regoing, the fa ct that a borrower transf ers the mortgaged property to a buyer who assumes an existing mortgage has no effect on the borrower's original promise to repay the loan.

Under the current law, the lender can sue the borrower on the promise to repay fo r as long as the mortgage is outstanding, no matter who owns the mortgaged property. That, in itself , is probably not unf air, but if I loan money to my cousin to buy a car, and later my cousin comes to me and says, I have sold the car to Jean and Jean will repay the loan instead of me, most people would understand, and I expect you to repay it. Mortgages are quite similar. Lenders loan money to individuals, although they also take security against the land.

In making the loan, they qualify the borrower to satisfy themselves that the borrower has the ability to repay the loan. In short, lenders very much rely on what is known as the personal covenant on the part of the original borrower to repay the mortgage loan. The fa ct is generally everyone loses, including the lender if the lender has to begin fo reclosure proceedings. However, although the existing law of mortgages, when put in those terms, is understandable, there is nonetheless a difficulty with the current situation.

There is no mechanism by which a seller who allows a buyer to assume an existing mortgage can require a lender to release him or her from responsibility under the mortgage. As the law currently stands, the seller remains liable under the mortgage, even if the lender approves the assumption, unless the lender expressly releases the seller. This bill deals with this situation. It enables a person who sells property to obtain a release from the lender under the mortgage in certain circumstances. In doing so, this bill balances the interests of borrowers against those of lenders in the context of modem reality.

This bill has a number of fe atures that I will highlight, the first of which is the scope of the legislation. These proposed amendments to The Real Property Act will_ apply only to residential mortgages on property in which the borrower lives. Commercial mortgages are a very diff erent instrument and raise a diff erent set of issues. The question of personal covenants in commercial mortgages are often a subject of detailed negotiation and should remain a matter fo r the parties between them to determine. If a mortgage is a residential mortgage, this bill outlines two scenarios under which a seller who sells

June 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2127 property to a buyer who assumes an existing mortgage will then be relieved from liability. The first scenario dealt with in the bill is where a lender actually approves the assumption of the mortgage by the buyer. When the lender gives such written approval, the seller is released from all of his or her obligations under the mortgage. Given that the terms of most residential mortgages contain a due-on sale clause that requires the approval of the lender to any assumption, this provision should deal with most situations that arise.

The second scenario addressed by the bill is where a seller does not obtain the approval of the lender to the assumption of an existing mortgage at the time the property is sold, either because the lender's approval was not sought, or the lender refused to give it. The bill creates a mechanism to enable a seller to be released from liability in such a case with two alternative situations that can arise.

If the mortgage has an expiry date, the seller will cease to be liable under the mortgage three months after the current term of the mortgage expires, unless the lender serves a written demand on the seller for repayment within that 90-day period. *

(1450) If on the other hand, a mortgage is a demand mortgage that has no specific expiry date, the seller will no longer be responsible under the mortgage if the seller gives written notice that he or she has transferred the mortgaged property, unless the lender serves a written demand, again, on the seller for repayment within 90 days after receiving such notice.

The reasoning behind this mechanism is that where a lender has not approved the assumption of a mortgage by a buyer, the lender nonetheless should have an obligation to decide whether or not to continue to hold the seller liable within three months of the end of the mortgage or after the lender receives notice of the transfer in the case of a demand mortgage.

This provides certainty to the seller, and if the lender does not serve written notice on the seller of its intention to continue to hold that seller liable under the mortgage within that 90-day period, the seller is automatically released from responsibility under that mortgage by operation of this law. If, on the other hand, the lender does not wish to give up his rights against the seller, it does not have to do so. It can preserve its position by giving written notice to the seller.

This bill also contains a provision that a lender, when presented with a request to allow a buyer to assume an existing mortgage, cannot unreasonably withhold its approval. If a lender does unreasonably withhold its approval, this bill allows an application to be made to the Court of Queen's Bench for the court's approval instead.

This bill further states that the lender is entitled to request reasonable financial information concerning the buyer who wishes to assume the existing mortgage in order to enable the lender to determine whether it is prepared to accept the buyer's promise in substitution of the seller's. Finally, this bill amends the promises in

Section 77 of The Real Property Act that are implied between the seller and lender and the seller and buyer, where a buyer assumes an existing mortgage. Currently, the implied covenant from the seller to the lender extends only to the payment obligations under the mortgage and not to the other terms, such as the obligation to insure or the obligation to repair the property. If this provision were not amended, this bill could operate to release a seller from all of his or her obligations under the mortgage without the buyer assuming responsibility for these nonmonetary items.

This amendment corrects the potential gap by applying a covenant on the part of the buyer to the lender that the buyer will fulfill all terms and all conditions in the mortgage. For most people, Madam Speaker, the purchase of a home is their single most important transaction, and any mortgage against it, their largest financial obligation. This bill removes the potential liability that follows the seller where he or she allows a buyer to

212 8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 20, 1995 assume an existing mortgage, or the lender consents to the assumption, which is what most mortgages require in any case. As I have noted, the bill strikes a balance between the position of sellers on the one hand and the valid interests of lenders on the other.

Those who would suggest that the legislation should simply provide that a borrower is released from liability under a mortgage when he or she transf ers the mortgaged property ignore the fa ct that the strength of the promise by a borrower to repay a loan is a crucial consideration taken into account by a lender in lending the money in the first place. To, in eff ect, fo rce a lender to accept the covenant of a buyer the lender does not know in substitution of the promise of the seller does so being unf air to the lender. It is important that the legislation is fa ir to both lenders and borrowers.

Legislation that unreasonably restricts the rights of a lender when a mortgage goes into def ault can lead to unintended consequences. In this situation, the unintended consequence would be a tightening of credit standards by lenders, which would lead them to increasingly reject borrowers whose ability to qualify fo r a mortgage is minimal. This would clearly be in no one's interest and would run counter to a number of initiatives over the past number of years to make home ownership available to more people, not less. I look fo rward, Madam Speaker, to further debate on Bill 4 and to any questions that may arise.

Thank you. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I move, seconded by the member fo r Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. House Business Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr.

Sveinson) in the Chair for the Department of Highways and Transportation; the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) in the Chair for the departments of Northern Aff airs and Natural Resources; and the honourable member for St Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair fo r the Department of Justice. * (1 500) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Mike Radcliffe): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 254, will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Highways and Transportation. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 2. Highways and Transportation Programs (

d) Transport Compliance

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 88 of the Estimates book and on page 41 of the yellow supplement book. Item 2.(

d) Transport Compliance (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,967,700. Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Under Activity Identification this is the last one: Provides highway condition inf ormation and issues permits fo r movement of goods, et cetera. I had some difficulty the other day getting highway condition inf ormation. It was with regard to a fo rest fire and the road was obscured. That is the news I got, and I had real difficulty finding any inf ormation. I did get the odd phone line that said, you push button 1 and this happens, and if you push button 2, this happens, but is there nobody on standby emergency?

June 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 212 9 Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Chairman, if the member is ref erring to the weekend with smoke conditions on the road, no, we would not have anybody on call to answer those kinds of calls. In the flood situation we did. In regular hours, of course, we would have, but not on the weekend in those circumstances. It would be deemed to be an EMO response or a Natural Resources response as opposed to a Highways particular issue. Is the member saying that we should have had? Mr.

Jennissen: No, I am not saying you should or should not have. I just wondered, you know, if you really need information in a hurry, there did not seem to be any place to go. I phoned the RCMP and they suggested, well, they had other things to do,phone Natural Resources or Highways, and I kept sort of going in circles. It was not a major issue. It is just that I would have hoped for the province that there was one phone line you could always tap fo r inf ormation. Mr. Findlay: Well, thank you for the member's input.

Befo re we proceed, I will just hand out to the member a map that shows the districts that we talked about last night, the five districts of the province and some of the issues that were raised yesterday on the worksite inspections, environmental monitoring and then hours of operation of the various weigh stations in the province, some additional information for the member. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe) Having no further questions from the honourable member fo r Flin Flon, item 2.(

d) Transport Compliance

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,967, 700- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $484,200-p ass. Item 2. (

e) Regional Offices

(1) Eastern Region Office (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,080,300. Mr. Jennissen: The question I have about the regions -I am thankful that the minister did give me a map of the five regions. Do we also have head offices-we ll, we have offices, but what are the exact locations of those offices in those regions? Mr. Findlay: The regional offices are in Steinbach in Region 1, Portage in Region 2, Brandon in Region 3, Dauphin in Region 4 and Thompson in Region 5-basically the largest population centre in each of the regions. Mr. Jennissen: I am sorry, I did not get the second region. Mr. Findlay: Portage. Mr.

Jennissen: Under Activity Identifica tion, the fo urth one down: Prepares project proposals and priorities within the region. I guess I can understand that within the region. What about all the regions, like the province? I am very naive about the process. How do you prioritize? How do you say road A gets attention bef ore road B? I know it is a highly contentious issue, so I am just asking. Mr. Findlay: You would like to know how the eventual prioritization ends up? Mr. Jennissen: Yes, how does it end up? Mr. Findlay: The member recognizes that it is a contentious process.

I will say contentious probably from the standpoint that you can only fulfil, just to use round figures, about one-sixth of the requests or demands that might be in front of the department fo r capital activity in any given year. The process, although it is fa irly involved, I think structurally over the course of time works reasonably well. The department, through the regions, comes fo rward with roads and informa tion, a wide variety of information on roads, condition, rideability and a projection as to whether this road should be done or another road should be done.

Then the department as a whole looks at that information involving all regions and considers such things as standards, economic activities with those roads, looks at the comparable maintenance cost fo r that road, whether the maintenance cost is now so high, it should be pushed fo rward toward upgrading.

2130 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 20, 1995 That inf onnation flows into the deputy's office and into mine, and we also receive considerable input, particularly from municipalities. Just to give the member some understanding, when UMM had their annual meeting last fa ll, we had over 30 meetings in that three-day period, as the Minister of Highways and Deputy Minister of Highways, with diff erent municipalities or groups of municipalities, all lobbying fo r certain activities in our department primarily to do with upgrading of roads of interest to them. So we get a lot of inf onnation from them.

It also gives us the opportunity to give them some fe el fo r the difficulty we have to prioritize everything that they have on their list. We certainly receive input from industry, particularly the trucking industry, as to whether we should be putting more effort into the major roads. Certainly industry that gets aff ected by weight restrictions in the spring is constantly pressuring that roads be built to an unrestricted status where they have to use it in the spring. We certainly get input from MLAs, rural MLAs obviously, who also get input from their municipalities.

Then we get citizens at large making requests directly to me or to MLAs which get relayed to me. Ultimately I make recommendations to cabinet who makes the final decision of what the program will be fo r that year and the year ahead. At any given time in front of us we have about-tak e this year's budget, we will have programmed or announced approval fo r about 1. 6 times the budget. There is always a large flow of projects ahead of us. We can only do 60 percent of that amount at any given time.

An announcement, say fo r this past spring, may not get tendered till the spring of '96, so it keeps a lot in front of the industry to know that there are projects coming, and while a project is in the approved program but not announced fo r tender, the department is doing the final bit of document work on what the tender will consist of. * (15 10) It is open to an awful lot of input, but ultimately decisions have to be made and the criteria we might use evolve over the course of time. The demands on us will continue to be very large.

Whether we can continue in the future to do everything we have done in the past is very much an open question, but we must be sure that we maintain the major roads to the best possible standard fo r citizens and fo r the carrying on of commerce in this province. Mr. Jennissen: Yes, I certainly concur with that, but northerners especially seem to fe el that the criteria are always weighted in fav our of the south. I guess one of the arguments they tend to use is volume, that the decisions are based on traffic, like a lot of volume on a road obviously demands that road be upgraded and fixed and so on.

They fe el that should not always be the criteria fo r the more disadvantaged portions of the province, specifically the North, because you have a very sparse population. The other fac tor they like us to take into account I guess is the production of wealth. Not only do they pay taxes, but you know the minerals that come out of the North and the pulp and the paper and so on, and specifically hydro-if we are talking in tenns of dollars, there is a lot of money coming out of the North. If we base the prioritization of fixing and building highways just on volume, then the North will always get short shrift.

The argument is we have to take into account those other fa ctors very strongly, otherwise we will never have the roads that we really fe el we need. Mr. Findlay: I certainly understand what the member is saying about the North. Many communities have only the one road in and out. There is no alternate route as there is in . many locations in the south. Probably the biggest problem we have in the North is a lot of those roads were, almost fo r lack of a better word, thrown in, b1:1ilt in a hurry to a pioneer standard, so the base is not as good as a base built in the south.

Hindsight says they should have been built to a better standard initially. The cost of upgrading or bringing them to the so-called standard that they want today is a very costly process and also through some very tough and rough terrain in there. The member talks about traffic volumes. Yes, it is a consideration, because the more volume there is the more wear and tear there is on the road, but clearly it is not used as a criteria in detriment to the North.

June 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2131 I have the .mileage here, you know, the various regions. Region I has 19 percent of the network; Region 2, 21 percent; Region 3, 26 percent; Region 4, 20 percent; and Region 5, 13 percent. Region 5 has the smallest percentage of total miles. In last spring's program, we recognized very strongly that there was need for what we will call more than normal allotment to the North and particularly gravelling on 391, 99 kilometres worth.

We identified projects on 391, 280, 373 and Highway 6, which made up, as I recall, around 14 percent, 15 percent, 16 percent of the spring program went to the North in recognition of severe problems that had occurred, a lot of it to do with adverse weather conditions. Wet conditions a year ago caused deterioration of the road and bad travelling conditions and we responded, as we did respond in the Swan River area three years ago-no, '89 we had the big flood in Swan River, responded significantly there.

Clearly this year there was consideration that we had to respond big-time in the Assiniboine Valley area where the flooding was. After everything was all over and done, our costs associated with road repair after that flood were marginal compared to what was initially thought to be-very small. We do respond where emergencies happen, and we recognize that the North needs greater attention than maybe it has had recently, but the demands come from all over.

With the same argument the member just said, well, we pay taxes; we want our appropriate amount of taxes collected at all the various means in our region dedicated to our region. If that principle was used, the haves would get more and the have-nots would get less. We try to almost set that issue aside in terms of the amount of taxes paid in a particular region and address the roads on a priority basis that allows everybody to have something every year to keep moving towards a better standard of roads in total right through all regions of the province.

We cannot dedicate everything to one region for a year or two or prioritize one region for a year or two. It is just not fair in the bigger picture, nor can we consider, well, you pay so much taxes you get so much consideration. You cannot do that. Mr. Jennissen: I wonder if the minister would consider just treating all the regions as one group for now because some of my honourable colleagues will ask questions. I would like to save the North for last, so I wanted to talk about that or ask questions. Some of my colleagues have some questions. Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr.

Chairman, I want to thank my colleague for letting us go ahead because we want to get into another part of our Es timates that we have to be in. There are several roads that I would like to talk about which fall within Region 4, but I also have a couple of questions that deal with policy. We may have passed that line, but I will check on the questions and if we have not gone past, if it is possible to have them answered, I would appreciate it.

I want to start out with just the whole general area of the Parklands Region and the change that we are going to see with increased traffic next fall with Louisiana Pacific coming in. We are going to see a lot of wood moved to that plant. * (1 520) I see stakes along the site of the plant where there are plans being made to provide an access road into the plant, which is very important, but I wonder if an analysis has been done on what the impact is going to be on the roads in that region and whether the department has done any forward planning on how they are going to upgrade those roads.

When I talk to people who work within the Department of Highways, I am told that as regards the No. 10 Highway, for example, the pavement on it is quite old and will not withstand the kind of traffic that is going to be put on. There has to be some thought given to how that road is going to be maintained as we see the increase of traffic. Mr. Findlay: Mr.

Chairman, the department certainly tried to do some planning, as the member is talking about, about roads that Louisiana-Pacific may well use, but the department still does not have the information as to, okay, where are the forest cuts going to happen in the next two or three years. So what roads should we be focusing on, whether it is Highway 10 or PRs, what are the appropriate roads that they are going to actually

213 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 20, 1995 be using? In regard to Highway 10, the actual status of it, generally speaking it has a fair bit of capacity of wear yet before it will be considered a road that is designated for upgrade in terms of the comparative criteria used across the province. With regard to the actual location, the access road to the plant, we will be constructing turning lanes at that point, redoing the intersection obviously, at a cost of $570,000. That project is reasonably close to being ready for tender.

The design has been done, and there is a further stretch of 800 metres to the plant which also needs to be upgraded as part of it. Some of which, I understand, has already been done by the municipality. It is, technically, a municipality responsibility. But our design for the first 200 metres from the centre of the highway is done and will be tendered and, as I say, over half a million dollars of cost right there. That would bring it up to a paved unrestricted status. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Chair, with respect to the access road going south off No. 10 Highway into the plant, will the government have any responsibility or will the government be picking any cost up on that road or is it going to be the government doing the design and the R.M. paying the cost? Is that road going to be surfaced as well? Mr. Findlay: The department has done the design for the road right to the plant. Last week I met with the reeve, and so the issue of who is paying for what the rest of the way is under discussion.

I understood they met the next day with the new individuals involved up there with Louisiana-Pacific about what level of responsibility they felt they had to at least consider the paving of the road. You know, from an operational point of view probably a gravel surface road is adequate, but there is desire to have it paved. I think Louisiana-Pacific maybe has some responsibility to share some cost here because they will be the benefactors with regard to the kind of service at least that is there. So there is a discussion going on. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chair, I thank the minister for that information.

I want to say that I agree with him that the government has done the design and that the company also and the municipality has some responsibility. The company in the end is going to be the main benefactor out of this, and they should also be picking up a share of the cost. I would hope that they would be held to that responsibility. I have several roads in the region that I want to talk about, and a couple of them I mentioned to the minister at some point in the House. I had indicated this spring that some of the roads were in terrible condition and in fact not accessible.

One of the roads that I talked about is Highway 271, which is east of Pine River, and that construction has been going on now I believe for two years. One year the contractor ran into some terrible weather and got delayed, but there are real problems in that area, 271 and 489 is in the same area. There were people in that area who could not get out, and it was a real problem for some people, particularly one family which had young children. At one point they did not know what they were going to do; they were considering going to stay in Dauphin until the roads were fixed up because of the health of a child.

In this day and age I do not think that is acceptable. I would like to see the roads in that area fixed up, but if the minister could give some indication as to what the problem was, why it got so bad, why that road has been so badly neglected. Mr. Findlay: The spring. Ms. Wowchuk: Yes, but it has been ongoing, it has been a couple of years now. This spring I know the weather was against them, but it is, I feel, a road that has been badly neglected. It was a road that was scheduled to be surfaced at one time. Now the department says, well, there is not enough traffic on it.

There is not enough traffic on it because nobody can go there. So it is six of one or half a dozen of another, and the people in the area are losing. We should not have those kind of roads, and it has to be improved. So I would ask the minister if he could give some indication of what kind of plans are there for that area? What kind of hope can we give to the people of that area so that next spring they are not going to face the

June 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 213 3 same kind of prob lem? I realize it takes a while to fix them, but surely to goodness this is the third year they are fa cing that. In fa ct, on 489 it has been longer than that, but those areas are very badly neglected. Mr. Findlay: Mr. Chairman, the member has identified clearly in 489, a very low volume of use of road.

The recorded volume of traffic is 50 vehicles a day, clearly it is low volume; 271 is a little higher volume, but a grade and gravel had been done on that in the past and we understand that during the course of the construction there were some climatic condition problems. In other words, wet road, wet conditions that made the project difficult to do. There are 20,000 identified for spot grade improvements on 27 1 currently. * (15 30) I guess if we are going to get wet springs, this problem of trying to have the road maintained during those wet conditions is a tough job.

It is probably in pretty good shape today in terms of it is dried out and has been maintained but come next spring, if it is wet conditions again, we cannot promise it will be an awful lot better. The ability to go in and do what the member might like is very expensive. It would be at the expense of other projects in the province. So we will do the best we can from a maintenance point of view and spot improvements, but to think that we could commit to a major reconstruction is just unaff ordable at this time. Ms.

Wowchuk: What the minister is saying, then-it was my understanding that at one point that road was scheduled for 271- Mr. Findlay: 271- work was done. Ms. Wowchuk: We were under the impression that it was going to have a surf ace put on it because all of the roads going across from No. 10 to 20- 267, 269-they have an oiled surf ace on them, and it was my understanding that 271 was going to be upgraded to a level where it would also get a surf ace on it of some kind, not necessarily pavement but an oil of some sort.

But from what the minister is saying now, there are no plans to upgrade that road to a level where it would be equivalent to, say, 269, which has an oil surf ace on it. Mr. Findlay: The member talks about 267 and 269 having an oil surf ace. Yes, it is asphalt surface treatment. It is called AST. It is thin, and it is always subject to spring restrictions. Those surf aces, the lif etime of them is certainly in doubt-subject to somebody going down there with a big load, getting away with the trip but damaging the road-very costly to maintain.

It is nice in terms of not having dust, but for about six weeks in the spring we get complaints from farm ers: I cannot haul my grain; I cannot get my fe rtilizer in; I cannot get my cattle to pasture. That is because we put that dust control called AST on. So you restrict commerce when you do that, and the deputy and I had talked about this just a fe w days ago, where it looks nice, makes you fe el good, but from the standpoint of being able to conduct commerce, it significantly restricts mobility. To go to any greater level of depth of pavement, now we are talking big time cost, and we cannot afford it. Ms.

Wowchuk: I can appreciate what the minister is saying about costs and about things looking good, but I can tell you that those people would be quite happy to have-I mean, all the region is restricted with load restriction in the spring, but the kind of road that they have now and the inaccessibility of that road, and this is not the first spring that that has happened. It is a road that gets very rutted up, and you cannot go on it with a truck anyway, whether there are restrictions or not. You just will not get through it.

So I can assure the minister that the people in that area would be very happy with that kind of a surf ace on it and have restrictions during the six to eight weeks in the spring. They would be more than happy, and I know that that road at one time was being considered, and I would hope that the minister would, again, give it consideration. It is a road that provides access to a large area. It is a school bus route, and what we had this spring was not acceptable, and we have to look at ways to improve it, so I would hope that the minister would reconsider that.

213 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 20, 1995 Mr. Findlay: I thank the member fo r that input, and I am sure we will get the same input continually from the municipality involved. Ms. Wowchuk: Yes, I am sure you will. Mr. Findlay: It is always on the long list of activities that people would like us to consider, but when there is a soft road, even putting an AST on it, it is not going to hold in the spring even under routine car traffi c. If you are going to put a surf ace on, you have got to have a reasonably good subgrade to hold the surf ace, no matter what kind of surf ace it is.

So there are limitations to what we can do, but I respect what the member is saying, and I can appreciate if you live on 271, you look down at 267, 269-they have got a surf ace treatment, and we would like the same. Human nature. Ms. Wowchuk: And I realize that the base has to be fixed up, but that is one of the ways, if you start pushing to have the surf ace put on it, you are going to have the base fixed up, and maybe eventually we will have a good road in the area So it is what we want fo r the area.

It will improve tourism, it will improve everything, and I can assure the minister that if that road was upgraded, you would see the amount of traffic on it increased tremendously. The community of Pine River, fo r example, is suff ering very badly because of it because the trading patterns have changed in the area because people cannot come in down that road. Another road that has been on the agenda for some time is in the Swan River area. It is 487. It is a road that goes to Thunder Hill, to the ski hill, and I am sure the minister has met Mr.

Joe TerHorst from the area who has lobbied every Minister of Highways over the years to have that road fixed up, and I do not blame him. I think that he is very committed to project, as are some other people, and I believe a Mr. Vern Vopni called the minister just recently. Again, that is a road that there was a commitment made on that there would be a surface put on it, and I think the indication was that it was not wide enough. There were problems with the bridge. Though the road was widened out, it seems to have been neglected now.

Can the minister tell me where it is on the list, and what kind of answer he can give to the people of that district who have long been waiting fo r a better way? That is an area, a good fa rming area, where there is lots of grain that has to be moved out, and they very much want to see that road. I understand that that is one of the very first roads that was built in the Swan River Valley.

The Thunder Hill area was once some of the first opened land, and yet it is one of the roads that has fa llen behind quite a bit, but has been on the minister's agenda fo r some time, so if we could find out what is happening with that. * (1 540) Mr. Findlay: Mr. Chairman, 487 has traffic counts that range anywhere from 18 0 to 250, so it is in a category of much higher volumes than the previous roads the member mentions. The 11 .6 kilometres received grade and gravel in 1989-90, and we have a clear indication from the R.M. of Swan River that it is a priority for them, so it is in due process.

Base and AST would be next. Ms. Wowchuk: What is due process? Mr. Findlay: It is in the works towards next project or next program whether it is this fa ll or next spring, as are many. I cannot give a commitment, a year and a half out, or two years out, or anything like that. Everything comes up on an annual basis, but Swan River is pushing for it, and Swan River continues to push this as a No. I priority. We want to do something in every region of the province every time we do projects. All I could best say is that the member has brought it to our attention. She has raised it as a priority for her area.

Her municipality has raised it as a priority. So that bodes well for it in the future . There is a structure on 487 at Lobstick Creek, a $1 70,000 structure that is in the approved program at this point.

June 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 213 5 Ms. Wowchuk: It has to be done? Mr. Findlay: It has to be done. One must always remember that the weakest link in most roads is the bridges. You go over in a split second, but they determine what goes on the whole road. The structure needs to be done. Ms. Wowchuk: Can the minister indicate, he said that road is now on a list that is up and should have-is it on a priority list?

I can understand what the minister is saying, but I have a question that constituents have asked me that I cannot answer, and I want to know, how can-it deals with a road into the park, 366, up to Wellman Lake. That road is being upgraded. So I would like to know what other work is scheduled for 366 up into the Wellman Lake region into the park area, and how a decision is made to prioritize a road into a park versus a road, for example, 487, when 487 is needed by the people in the area for economic development.

I am looking for some information on how a decision is made to choose a road such as the road into a park that not everybody uses, and it is not for economic development,

whereas, as I said, 487 is one that is needed for the economic viability for the area. What kind of scale is used to justify one road? Is it the fact that somebody has lobbied harder for that road, or how does that kind of decision come about? Mr. Findlay: The member asked, how would you decide to do that? Well, I guess one of the criteria is we have received a lot of lobby from the R.M. of Minitonas wanting to see that road upgraded. We have traffic counts here that vary from I, I 00 up by Minitonas down to 260, 13 0, 170 going into the park. These are year-round traffic counts.

There is an awful lot of tourist traffic going in there at this time of the year and the traffic volumes will be much higher than this. Therein lies a requirement or a pressure from park goers from the R.M. of Minitonas saying this is a road of considerable importance. I guess some people call it economic activity, in other words, tourism activity to and from Duck Mountain. There are people pressing for it. There are municipalities pressing for it. There are high use periods, very high use periods. Ms. Wowchuk: Can the minister indicate then how much money is budgeted to be spent on that road?

Is there work to be done on that road this year? There was work done on it last year, I believe, and there is work being done on it again this year. How much money is being spent? Mr. Findlay: There are 22 kilometres of grade and gravel for $325,000 is the project in front of us. We are just looking up to see if it has been tendered yet or not. We understand it has already been tendered. Ms. Wowchuk: The minister said it is tendered for gravelling.

Are there any plans to put any surfacing on that road of any kind or is it just going to be-what is it going to be upgraded to, or is it just going to be a gravel road? Mr. Findlay: Mr. Chairman, I am sure the member is aware that 366 is surfaced. It is a narrow road with the surface down to the park boundary. The grade and gravel we are doing is wide enough to support future surfacing, but future surfacing is not planned at this stage. It is just grade and gravel to bring it up to a good rideable standard. * (1 550) Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Chairman, as we were out, and all of us were out an awful lot on roads this last spring, we got to see some of the very bad roads and hear the concerns from many people. In particular, there are a couple of roads that-one road that affects a Northern Affairs community and two roads that are access roads, one into a Northern Affairs community and a reserve and the other one into a reserve.

I have written to the-I do not mean I have written to this minister-previous minister with respect to the roads into Pelican Rapids and Indian Birch, and we have got responses back that, well, if the band is prepared to spend some of the costs on this road, then we are prepared to cost-share it.

2136 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 20, 19 95 These roads are not on the reserve. They are roads that provide access to all people, and I do not think it is fair to say that, well, we will build this road if the band would contribute, because you do not say that in other areas. When a road is needed, it is needed. The two roads, as I say, one is into Indian Birch and there is no number on it, and I am looking at an older map, and the other one is into Pelican Rapids. The one into Pelican Rapids, there was a commitment made to have calcium applied the whole length of the road.

I think that commitment was made about three years ago, and then that was never fulfilled. Those roads are in poor condition and they are the only access. These people do not have any other way that they can go. We were talking about the condition of the road in Pine River. Those roads were in bad condition, but at least there was another road that people might have been able to get out onto, but in these areas there is nothing. It is either that road or you stay at home. There were a lot of cars-mufflers coming off cars, and things like that.

I want to ask the minister what his position is when it comes to providing access to people who live in any Northern Affairs communities or on reserves and there is no other access available other than the roads that are there, and whether he can give any indication of whether these roads are dealt with differently and what kind of plans there are to repair them. Mr. Findlay: Mr. Chairman, I presume that the road that she got the response from the previous minister on the cost-sharing was the road to Pelican Rapids. Both that road and the one to-what did you call it, Indian? Ms. Wowchuk: Indian Birch. Mr.

Findlay: Indian Birch. They are both main market roads, but the one to Pelican Rapids was initially built on 50-50 cost-sharing with the federal government. So that is why we still like to see them share in 50 percent of the cost of upgrading. We do I 00 percent of the maintenance on the road, on both roads we do I 00 percent of the maintenance. On the one to Indian Rapids, that is 10 0 percent ours, main market road. So there is a different history on the two roads in terms of who paid for them initially.

You know, I hope the member would support us if we would try, from anywhere possible, to get as many dollars from Ottawa as possible to help us in the oyerall cost of roads. So that is a different history. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chair, I appreciate the minister's remarks. For clarification, I was not trying to get the federal government off the hook. If it is a 50-50 share with the federal government, so it should be. I have to look back and talk to the band again, as my understanding was that we are sort of saying to the band, okay, you find the money and then we will put in the money.

If it is lobbying the federal government to put their share in, if it is a 50-50 road, then so it should be. That does not quite answer the question. Let us look at the Pelican Rapids. If it is a 50-50 road, is there anything being done and whose responsibility is it to go after the federal government to try to get some additional funds to upgrade that road?

Is it the minister's responsibility to say we want this road fixed up, or is it the bands and the community council from Pelican Rapids to go after the federal government to say we need this road fixed up, give us money so that we can go after the province to get their money? So who starts the ball rolling here to get this road fixed up? Mr. Findlay: Mr. Chairman, the department's analysis is that the road is of adequate standard at this stage in terms of structure, in terms of gravel, and we do put on calcium, three-kilometre strips, every 16 kilometres, for passing zones on the road.

If the member or the band or the community council wants to do something further, I would think that they have responsibility to get some commitment from the federal government, then come to us with that commitment for us to proceed. Ms. Wowchuk: Then on the road to Indian Birch up to Swan Lake there, the minister had indicated that is I 00 percent-it is a main market road-provincial

June 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 213 7 responsibility. That road is not in good shape either. Are there any funds allocated in this year's budget to fix up the road in there? Mr. Findlay: Mr. Chairman, I certainly acknowledge the member's comments that the road is not in good shape, classed as a worn-down road, many sharp turns in it. Any upgrading in the future would require straightening it out and obviously improving the roadbed. Though it is in the category of main market roads, and we have quite a few main market roads scattered throughout the province, it is for future consideration.

The member might want to talk to me later about her level of priorities on the various roads she has raised-she has to appreciate we cannot do them all and, over the course of time, where this one sits relative to some of the other priorities she has identified. * (1 600) Ms. Wowchuk: I will take that opportunity another time to raise those issues with the minister. But can the minister clarify something? He said that the road into Pelican was a 50-50 road, and this one is a main market. Now, just for clarification, what other roads does the federal government contribute to?

Is there a certain class, like, for example, the No. 10 Highway or main roads? Does the federal government contribute 50-50? Where does the cut-off point come for what the federal government contributes to, and what strictly is the responsibility of the provincial government? I would imagine then, we get to municipal roads, and there is a sharing there. So if you just give us a quick overview of what is 50-50. Mr. Findlay: Well, it is a fairly wide-sweeping question the member has asked, and we could talk for a fair while, but I will keep it short.

As I mentioned in my opening comments last night, the federal government collects $5.5 billion in fuel tax on the road system right across this country and contributes very little back to the system. The road we are talking about, to Pelican Rapids, it was initially negotiated for construction as 50-50. But other than that-and the road through Riding Mountain, which is over federal ground, it is their total responsibility- beyond those specific cases like that, it is a hundred percent provincial.

We have been falling behind, to put it bluntly, in terms of keeping up with the wear and tear on roads and demand, of which the member has brought some to the table here today. We need road upgrade, and we have a lot of tax dollars leaving the province for other uses that we contend should go back into the road system. Because pretty well a hundred percent of the dollars we collect from road taxes, from fees, from driver's licenses, and all of that, goes back into our travelling infrastructure in one form or another, whether it is roads or airports or whatever it is. So we are putting our money in.

We are not getting very much from the federal government. Their basic position is today they will not contribute anything more in the future in any kind of arrangement or circumstance like this. I think the member can appreciate we feel that First Nations people are a federal responsibility. They have a responsibility to cost-share, at least, in terms of infrastructure for them, and there has been success, occasionally in the past, in that context. I would say today they are instantly going to say no.

It would be very hard to get us to change their minds because they are just saying that we are out of this; we are offloading it onto you. The citizens of Manitoba come to us first, and they will never accept the fact, well, we cannot do it because the federal government has said no. They expect us to do it a hundred percent. So we have had some success in the past, but the ability to get success today is very, very limited. Even though they collect a lot out of the system, it goes to supply other services for Canadians, maybe not in Manitoba. Ms.

Wowchuk: I thank the minister for that information because we just were not quite sure, and I was not here for the comments last night. The minister touched on another issue about federal offloading. They have reneged on a lot of their responsibilities, I believe, in agriculture. The whole

2138 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 20, 1995 change to the transportation subsidy is going to see major changes in, I believe, how the grain and farm products are moved with the change. We will see the shifting of traffic away from railways and onto the roads, and this is going to have a tremendous burden on our roads and an impact on the transportation budget, I think.

So I would like to ask the minister whether his department has done any analysis of what this change is going to do, what the impacts on our roads are going to be, and what kind of additional costs the province is going to have to end up with, or whether there is going to have to be additional allocations into the Department of Highway's budget in order to upgrade the roads.

So basically I am wanting to know whether or not any studies have been done of what this is going to have, and if there have been studies, whether the minister would be prepared to share those with us with respect to what his department sees as which rail lines will be abandoned and what the transfer cost is going to be to the province as we start to pick up the extra road costs. Mr. Findlay: Clearly, the member raises a very big topic. There is no question at all; there is going to be dramatic change in what farmers produce and where it goes to market and how it gets there.

I have certainly raised this in municipalities in discussions over the past year and, more recently, in the last few months with delegations that come in to see how it works. I am going to have to give consideration to how you most efficiently use your capital dollars within your municipality to those roads that are going to be of greatest need for the commercial movement of grain, livestock, inputs into the farm and any other products that come away from the farm. We are currently doing some analysis on impacts on roads. Nobody has a grand plan yet as to what is going to happen.

Elevator companies are part of this equation. Where are they going to close elevators, where are they going to build big ones, and how is our road infrastructure going to integrate with that? I think the member will remember that over the last approximately 30 years there has been a lot of change in how commodities are moved into and out of the rural communities. * (1610 ) I can remember 30 years ago pretty well everything that came into a town came by rail-your machinery, your fuel, your mail, your fertilizer. It all came by rail. Most of that today comes by truck, even fertilizer.

Although it may travel from Alberta or Minnesota, it comes by truck instead of by rail. That highlights the fact again that I mentioned last night: 40 years ago 70 percent of bulk commodities in western Canada travelled by rail; today it is 28 percent. A dramatic shift has occurred, and rail abandonment has occurred also over the last 30 years. Percent of the network that was abandoned approximately 20-25 years ago was, I would only be guessing, but it might be 30-40 percent of the total network. A lot of communities went through a lot of tough analysis and rationalization when that happened.

A lot of the hue and cry we heard from communities at that time, a fear of the future, did not really necessarily materialize, but still the commodities went to the road. Municipalities and the provincial governments in western Canada have tried to meet the challenge in terms of keeping the roads at an adequate standard, and there is certainly a constant demand in front of us as you have identified in your region for roads that maybe are not up to a fully acceptable standard.

The next three to four years are going to be very interesting in terms of responding to the changes that are going to happen, the directions the commodities are going to move; and, with more incentives out there to attract grain, for instance, to different elevators or processing locations, you are going to see grain going in Manitoba like this. You are going to have trucks getting a backhaul across Manitoba, hauling grain one way to a price and the opposite way, a back load, going the other way, and maybe the same grain going to another economic opportunity on behalf of the farmer.

In the broad picture, when you look at locations of farms, the amount of tonne-miles that will be hauled on municipal roads probably will not change an awful lot. The amount of tonne-miles hauled on provincial roads

June 20, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOB

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-1-21
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 1st hansardpdf 21.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	385d598719f2b0b022b580063669ebf75719b384

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