Manitoba Hansard — 8 September 1969 (Sitting 24, 29th Legislature, 1st Session)

29-1-24

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

-- --- -- --- -- --- - ---- --- - �----- - ---- -- - ______ , _______ _ Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Ben Hanuschak VoiJ XVI No. 24 8:00p.m., Monday, September 8th, 1969. First Session, 29th Legislature.

ELECTORAL DIVISION NAME ADDRESS ARTHUR J. Douglas Watt Reston, Manitoba ASSINIBOIA Steve Patrick 10 Red Robin Place, Winnipeg 12 Bl RTLE- RUSSE LL Harry E. Graham Binscarth, Manitoba BRANDON EAST Hon. Leonard S. Evans Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 BRANDON WEST Edward McGill 2228 Princess St., Brandon, Man. BUR.ROWS Hon. Ben Hanuschak 11 Aster Ave., Winnipeg 17 CHARLESWOOD Arthur Moug 29 Willow Ridge Rd., Winnipeg 20 CHURCHILL Gordon Wilbert Beard 103 Copper Rd., Thompson, Man. CRESCENTWOOD Cy Gonick 115 Kingsway, Winnipeg 9 DAUPHIN Hon. Peter Burtniak Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 ELMWOOD Russell J.

Doern 104 Roberta Ave., Winnipeg 15 EMERSON Gabriel Girard 25 Lomond Blvd., St. Boniface 6 FLIN FLON Thomas Barrow Cranberry Portage, Manitoba FORT GARRY Bud Sherman 86 Niagara St., Winnipeg 9 FORT ROUGE Mrs. lnez Trueman 179 Oxford St., Winnipeg 9 GIMLI John C. Gottfried 44- 3rd Ave., Gimli, Man. GLADSTONE James Robert Ferguson · Gladstone, Manitoba INKSTER Hon. Sidney Green Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 KILDONAN Peter Fox 627 Prince Rupert Ave., Winnipeg 15 LAC DU BONNET Hon. Sam Uskiw Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 LAKESIDE Harry J. Enns Woodlands, Manitoba LA VERENDRYE Leonard A.

Barkman Box 130, Steinbach, Man. LOGAN William Jenkins 1287 Alexander Ave., Winnipeg 3 MINNEDOSA Waiter Weir Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 MORRIS Warner H. Jorgenson Box 185, Morris, Man. OSBORNE lan Turnbull 284 Wildwood Park, Winnipeg 19 PEMBINA George Henderson Manitou, Manitoba POINT DOUGLAS Donald Malinowski 361 Burrows Ave., Winnipeg 4 PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE Gordon E. Johnston 7 Massey Dr., Portage la Prairie, Man. RADISSON Harry Shafransky 4 Maplehurst Rd., St. Boniface 6 RHINELAND Jacob M. Froese Winkler, Manitoba RI EL Donald W.

Craik 66 River Rd., Winnipeg 8 RIVER HEIGHTS Sidney Spivak, Q.C. 1516 Mathers Bay, West, Winnipeg 9 ROBLIN J. Wally McKenzie lnglis, Manitoba ROCK LAKE Henry J. Einarson Glenboro, Manitoba ROSSMERE Hon. Ed. Schreyer Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 RUPERTSLAND Jean Allard 119 Provencher Ave., St. Boniface 6 ST. BONIFACE Laurent L. Desjardins 357 Des Meurons St., St. Boniface 6 ST. GEORGE Bill Uruski Box 629, Arborg, Manitoba ST. JAMES Hon. Al. Mackling Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 ST. JOHNS Hon. Saul Cherniack, Q.C. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 ST. MATTHEWS Wally Johannson 471 Home St., Winnipeg 10 ST.

VITAL Jack Hardy 11 Glenlawn Ave., Winnipeg 8 STE. ROSE Gildas Molgat 463 Kingston Crescent, Winnipeg 8 SELKIRK Hon. Howard Pawley Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 SEVEN OAKS Hon. Saul A. Miller Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 SOURIS-KILLARNEY Earl McKellar Nesbitt, Manitoba SPRINGFIELD Hon. Rene E. Toupin Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 STURGEON CREEK Frank Johnston 310 Overdale St., Winnipeg 12 SWAN RIVER James H. Bilton Swan River, Manitoba THE PAS Ron McBryde 56 Paul Ave., The Pas, Manitoba THOMPSON Hon. Joseph P. Borowski Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 TRANSCONA Hon.

Russell Paulley Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 VIR DEN Morris McGregor Kenton, Manitoba WELLINGTON Hon. Philip Petursson Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 WINNIPEG CENTRE Bud Boyce 777 Winnipeg Ave., Winnipeg 3 WOLSELEY Leonard H. Claydon 116% Sherbrook St., Winnipeg 1

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Monday, September 8, 1969 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY 551 1 MR. CHAIRMAN: Department of Youth and Education. Resolution 103. The Honourable Mem�er for Rhineland. IMR. FROESE: ... discussed the last time, I felt that they were passed too fast too, because it just happened that I was out of the House one day and when I came back the next day they "Yere passed. I feel that estimates of this size, of $150 million or close to it, I think should receive careful and close scrutiny.

II think when I was speaking just before the dinner hour, that I mentioned the control of costs, and certainly I think there is need to control costs to a certain degree but, as I indicated, I thinK this should be done at the local level because our government will find itself in trouble, in my I opinion. Next year when the new budget will have to be made up, no doubt there will be further increases.

The cost of Medicare is now added to the budget and this means that there will bk higher taxes, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were higher taxes on real estate, especially on commercial and businesses, and if this is the case we will hear an uproar and a cry f�om the business community of this province. I don't think there is any other way out, that ybu will have increases except that we have controls at the local level. I think the people of thi� province should have a greater say, and a greater say in the determining the amount that qey are willing to spend on education.

The honourable member who spoke on the govern ment �ide earlier - I forget the riding momentarily - mentioned that we shouldn't think of education costs in terms of cost but rather in terms of investment. Here I care to disagree to a gre �t extent. Naturally, education is an investment but I think when we talk about investments we taUk in different terms than when we talk in costs. When we talk of investments we generally talk o� investing our surpluses, money that we have to spare, and not go deep into debt to invest of thi� type that you will have no direct return in place.

We know, as was already pointed out by the Member for Ste. Rose, that too much of our learned people, of our people who have acquired good �ducations, leave this province and I feel that we must ensure that, in addition to providing equality of educational opportunities throughout the province, our young people are given the chanc k to employ their skills closer to home. I think this is very essential; otherwise we will not bElnefit from this so-called investment, or this investment, because other people will then be re�ping the benefit. I feel the two of them have to work close together.

Our economic devel opment here in this province has to be tied in with the educational progr am. Otherwise education is a c bst to us and not an investment, and I think we have to keep that in mind because, as you will know, the capital costs, the moneys we spend at our universities are being capitalized and the mbneys are being borrowed for that purpose, and this is a dead weight debt to the province. It shors on the books as a dead weight debt.

It's not a self-liquidating debt as so are the utili-. ties. , It is a thing that has to come out of our taxation and has to be paid for, and I think we remember too well, not the last Premier, the previous Premier to that, he more or less had the s� e inter pretation of school costs as investments, and I don't think the people of this provi �ce accepted that too readily. In fact, in the first round it was refused.

However, because of the I people throughout the province not benefitting through the grant system that was offered under I the centralization of schools, they were left in the cold and therefore they finally accepted the pl!Ul, but I'm sure that this was the very first downfall of his Premiership, and I think it had a !bearing on his final demise. ,The previous government had in mind to give the Public School Finance Board greater contr t l over education costs, and that they were going to be able to review the budgets and have this power to allocate funds - and probably curtail them as well, otherwise there would be no powe� to control; but it has not come about and I have yet to hear from this government what their intentions are as to how to control costs in education.

II recall too well the meeting that was held in the Civic Auditorium, where the different parti �s were invited to speak on the matter of education and certainly, if I recall correctly, the New Pemocratic Party did not indicate that they were going to control costs from the top down as was being proposed, and I think this had a bearing on the vote, and to a certain extent I agree with them. I don't believe in controlling costs from the top down.

I think this control should be exercised by the people themselves because they are the ones that are paying the taxes, they are tHe ones that are paying the shot, and they should have a greater power to determine as to

552 September 8, 1969 (MR. FROESE cont'd) .... what they're willing to spend in education. Certainly I am one and a great believer in education. I have spent many years in assisting the trustees of this province in their organization, and I feel education is a must and we must provide proper education for children. Some years ago we heard a lot of talk of equality of opportunity. Today we hear very little about it.

After the centralization program was in, this theme was dropped, yet I find today that we do not have equality of opportunity as yet - not to the extent that it causes hard ship for certain students compared to others. We are centralizing our schools into larger centres.

This means that other pupils have to drive long distances to school and many of the youngsters are tired before they arrive, and therefore I have never subscribed to the centrali zation program to the extent that it is being exercised, and I'm just wondering whether this government's proposal is to further centralize the education system in the province or not. I would be glad to hear from the Minister about this very point. There was mention before by the Honourable Member for Riel that I was not in favour of increased support from the government for schools. I don't think I have ever said this.

I have always maintained that we should have greater support from the government, especially in our area, but that we should not take away the control from our local people. This is where l' ve been very keen on and I still believe in that, and I don't think I have reason to change my mind about it because the parents and the people back home should have a right to decide for them selves, in the matter of education , to a larger degree. I believe that we should have increased support from the government with probably less taxes and less money coming from real estate.

This is a matter that has been debated in the House over the years and I think we have reached a point where we can no longer add any more taxes on real estate because, if things go wrong, people, farmers cannot sell their crops or , in case they do not have crops - as many of them will not this year, in certain areas the crops are very slow- that they might not have the means wherewith to pay for their taxes and in that case lose their investment, their life savings, in default because they are unable to pay their taxes. And I certainly would hate to see this happen.

Federal aid was already mentioned and I listened with real interest to the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose in connection with the matter of asking the Federal Government for aid and assistance to education - federal aid, and that we would probably have to argue our need for this. In my opinion this would show up a very weakness and we would have to argue t.�e points where we fell down as a government in Manitoba and I don't think that this would be very proper in my opinion, That is not to say that if money is coming our way that we should not accept it.

In fact, I think the cause of the great industries in the east and the tremendous protectio n that they are getting and which we in the west are helping them to pay for, I think we are deserving of some federal aid in that respect. But at the same time I would not be too strong a proponent for federal aid, I feel that we should be able to manage our own affairs and run our house accordingly so that we will be able to manage. The student aid program is another matter that I should briefly touch on. I feel tha t there are a number of cases where students are not receiving the aid that they would like to get.

We know this is a federal program but it is administered by the provincial civil service and certain criteria are set up which are the same apparently, I take it, in all provinces, but some students have difficulty in getting the aid that they need or would like to have. I think if improvements can be made along that line this should definitely be done and should be checked into in my opinion. Mr. Chairman, these were a few matters that I felt that I would like to mention at this point. I no doubt will have other matters to bring forward as we proceed along the various items.

I believe that we have to exercise great control in how we are spending the taxpayers money when it comes to education because this is the largest spending department that we have here in this province. We are spending almost $1 50 million under these estimates and I think our taxpayers, our people of this province are entitled to see that we get the most out of every dollar that is spent for this prupose. As I said previously I do hope that this new government will be successful and I do hope also that they change their policies in certain respects.

I don't think I have to remind the Minister that the multi-district divisions are still the stepchildren of this province. They are not getting their fair share of support to educate their childr en and I feel that a change should be made and I do hope this government will bring in a change in that respect. Because these people are paying the revenue tax, which is also called the sales tax, and which was originally called the education tax. They've been paying it for these years, several years now, and because of the densely populated area in my riding- and

I SepteJber 8, 1969 553 (MR. FROESE cont'd) .. ..• I'm sure that this also applies to some of the other ridings that do not bnjoy the same support as the unitary divisions - that they are deserving and I feel a changel should be made so that these multi-district divisions will receive the same teacher grants; same operational grants, that the unitary divisions are enjoying at the present time. certa i�ly hope to hear from the Minister on this.

I do hope that this change will be made be cause if not they will probably have the same fate as the previous government did because I think our pe�ple in this province deserve equal treatment, the children deserve equal opportunities and therefore we should see to it that justice is done. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Churchill. rjm. GORDON W. BEARD (Churchill): Tonight I'd like to, in addressing the Minister first 04 all congratulate him. I believe they have chosen a man with an eye to the future.

I was wondering in these days of priority what he has in mind in respect to youth and education and certain,ly will be looking forward to his remarks, if not now, when the new session is called next year, because this will be his session and his responsibility. Ilbelieve that in some cases we have possibly c_reated a monster in our excitement to put the emphasis on education, and this is one that we have to not only keep under control but we certainly have to know where we are going.

This is one of the problems which seems to be affecti�g us throughout the whole of the nation; because what is priority in education, where does a l start? We hear most of it in respect to universities and the priorities at high level education, because I think students are able to discuss it more freely, they are able to get covera'ge on this, and perhaps it is driving them from pillar to post in those areas iri which the squeak[y wheel gets the most grease.

Il think maybe it is time to pause and reflect a little in respect to education, and I say that because of course the emphasis in the other half of this province has to be placed on other than university. I would like to, before I get into this, congratul ate past governments in the empha sis the[y placed in the building of Cranberry Portage school, the development of this integrated ser vie�, and certainly the credit that it has been to not only the Indian children but the integra- l tion of 1all of northern children in the high priority of bringing both Indian and white children into education's future.

Il believe that The Pas industrial school has been good. It has ... certainly in northern Manitopa which has not to date kept up or got into pace with industry and I would hope there would be something done about that. I think that possibly if there is anybody to take to task tonight, it would be the Federal Department of Indian Education along with I suppose our own in .. j rftR. CHAIRMAN: May I interrupt the honourable member for a moment. There is quite a bit of volume of conversation going on in the Chamber. I would ask members to please lower their voice or pay attention.

Would the honourab le member continue. r)1R. BEARD: Maybe we should go out and buy them a cup of coffee, Mr. Chairman.

Il think that in respect to public school areas of our education we have found in the north that the children are not being prepared to cope with the necessities of high school education, and of pour se the university education, and I would hope that this government will be able to put a larger emphasis on their kindergarten classes in the north both on and off the reserves, and in fact act as an ombudsman in making sure that Indian Affairs Department do take the steps that are necessary to bring these new Manitobans into step with the other children in our province, because they are lagging behind.

Far too often they are eight and nine years of age before lthey are out of Grade 1, and this makes it almost impossible for them to compete. We find that when they are coming to Cranberry Portage from the small communities that they are cet tainly not fully qualified to meet Grade 9 standards.

This comes from many things, an apathy ,in respect to their parents; I think it's an apathy in respect to the teacher; and certainly it com�s from the teachers themselves, being far too often permit teachers, and yet really I find th�t a permit teacher can be as good as the one that is more qualified and can really take an inte�est in the young children.

But if there was a message, I would like to leave it with the Minister to make sure that he did see to it that public school education in the north received the em�hasis of priorities which his department is able to bring about in the other southern groups l He certainly has a wonderful civil service department which has always co-operated with thb affairs of the north, and this is far more than I can say about many of the other depart ments pf government and which maybe we'll have more to say about a little later on in other estimafes. But with the school system it has come a long way.

I hope it never forgets that it I

554 September 8, 1969 (MR. BEARD cont'd) .. .. . has a long way still to come. In closing, I would like to pass along the remarks of South Indian area where it was brought up at their meeting there that the department had asked for a lay or permit teacher that would be bilingual . This meant Cree and English, and the qualifications would have to be Grade 10 or better and such on to assist the others teachers. And the payment- I can't remember right now- but if the Minister would look into it, I believe the allowance was ridiculously low as far as the wage was concerned itself.

It was far lower than the white permit teachers would be getting in that area but still they wanted an Indian, a bilingual Indian, to assist them in teach ing and there was a discrimination, a rank discrimination in respect to the pay that she would get or he would get. The living allowance was - I just can't remember but it seems to me it was either $1 2.00 or $1 5. 00 a month or something along that line - but they were expecting far more from the permit teacher who would be an Indian than it would be if she were a white person coming into that community.

This was advertised throughout the area so it wouldn't necessarily have to be a resident. I think they are right in bringing that type of person in so they could communicate with the children themselves, but the salary certainly wasn't inducive to bringing in good permit teachers that were qualified to speak both langauges. I won 1 t hold you up any longer, Mr.

Chair man, but I just would like to make sure that we are on record in the north in respect to our school situation up there, and we will be looking forward enthusiastically to what progress the Minister has been able to make by next February and maybe at that time we will be able to either chastize him or throw the bouquets his way. Thank you. MR. CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Youth and Education. MR. MI LLER: I would like to thank the members who participated in the debate so far. Frankly, for the remarks they've made, I've personally found them very helpful.

I find that they've been on a very high plane and have stuck to the issues at hand, the problems of education in Manitoba generally. Starting from the first speaker the Member for Riel, who as the former Minister of course has a knowledge of the estimates which no other member possesses and who generally discussed the problems as he saw them when he was Minister and felt that I would have to face up to in the months ahead. I want to thank him for the tenor in which he carried on this discussion and the level at which he approached it.

Some of the remarks he made I can assure him I will look at very closely because his views were expressed based on his experience, and I know the experi ence he gained in the months he was in the department is something that I have yet to learn. So that I can't, or shouldn't shrug them off and I can assure him I don't intend to. The whole question of manpower research or resource developments and targets thereto are important. We certainly have to know where we're going; we certainly have to know how we're going to get there and what we are going to do when we achieve certain goals. Is it within our means?

Is it within the scope of the department that we have the necessary set-up and wish to achieve them. I agree that this is of course an area where we have to work very closely with federal manpower agencies because our program and theirs have to be very closely related. They have to mesh .at all times in order to make sure that the programs we offer in Manitoba are meaningful. All members expressed some concern or questioned the fact that I didn't get up and pre sent to the House my philosophy in education and my long-term proposals.

Of course I could have got up here I suppose and made a speech and I doubt anybody would have quarrelled with it because I think all of us have the same attitudes basically. We're all seeking the best for the students, for our children. We all I'm sure desire to make it possible that every individual develops to his maximum potential. We're all I'm sure agreed that we'd like to raise everyone's horizons and therefore their expectations. We're all also I'm sure agreed that we want to motivate people so as to broaden their cultural as well as their educational horizons.

So it isn't in that area where disagreement will come up. The problem really is what is the pace of develop ment? What are the orders or priorities? What do you do first? What do you do second? What steps do you take? And it is in those areas, or as I remarked when I opened the debate, I cannot, because these are not my estimates, even start dealing with these matters except in the few short sentences I've used and which I'm sure everyone feels the same way as I do about it.

However, the Member for Riel did pose a question which I knew he was going to pose and which did not come as a surprise to me or to him, his remarks regarding the petition of the

September 8, 1969 555 I (MR. :tyiiLLER cont'd) ..... Manitoba Students' Union, I think it was, and his disapproval of the fact that this government did not take any action in regard of the petition. And he pointed out quite correctly that some Ca binet Ministers, some MLAs - some various, more than jJst the one Par-ty- had endorsed that petition, and it was a lengthy presentation and the petitio� attached thereto. I said it publicly on orders before the day and I say it now; I did sign that petition.

I agree in principle with the aims and objectives of that and I hope to see the day wHen we do have universal accessibility to higher learning in Manitoba, and not just through uni ver�ity but post-secondary education generally. And I can tell him, the Member for Riel, that I have colleagues on this side of the House who W<f>uld have liked to have seen some action taken at this very session.

On the other hand, I also �ave to say to him that the petition left out - the petition that was circulated the day of the op�ning of the House - left out a key word and that key word was the word "utmost", that we would do our utmost to hold back fees; to do something about student aid and bursary pro grams! and convene in national conference.

It's very difficult to do one's utmost when you're in session within a few weeks after getting into office and when things are pretty well set; when -tfe bursary program is laid out months in advance; when the student aid is established months in advance; when the dates for filing of applications for that student aid program are laid o�t months in advance; and when you get into office you find that most of them are either processed or are almost through being processed, that the date for qualifying applications, the date at which the applications can be accepted, some cases go back to February, some cases �o May, some cases to June, other cases July.

By the time I got into office the eggs had been well scrambled and there wasn't much that you could do to unscramble them, which dcesn'� mean that I take this matter lightly. So I would ask members and the students generally to look at one thing the government has do�e and which I suggest has had as much impact and perhaps more in the way of the easing of the ifinancial burden and that is the roll back - or the shift rather - in the medicare costs from the premium tax that was introduced the other day by my colleague the Minister of Health and sdcial Services.

Students who are married, or who are over 21 years of age and who are I no longer dependent on the family- and this group incidentally that's over 21 represents about two-thirds of the student body at the universities - they will benefit far more by the roll back, by thelchange in premiums than anything we could have done with regard to the student fees. So that the program as pronounced by my colleague had an effect, a salutary effect not just to studen!ts but all of Manitoba, but students included.

And, as I say, this applied whether to those ktudents over 21, of which they are two-thirds of the student body, or even those who are home \vith their parents. In the case of their parents, certainly if it was a married -- as you know, 1 for a couple the savings were approximately $1 0 2. 00 or $1 0 3. 00, So that by and large, whether it was this vehicle that was used or another vehicle that was u�ed, the savings are a very real one and the effect I suggest is equal to or better.

And I'm nqt saying this in order to get out from under or to say, well now we don't have to do any thing ibout fees, now we're not concerned about fees, because I think I can honestly say to you, I and I think most people in this Chamber will probably agree, that they too would like to see the barri�r, the financial barriers eliminated from anyone who seeks to better himself in his education-- and that is even the Member for Riel. How do you like that. -- (Interjection) - I'm n9t going to tell him what he said last year. He knows what he said and forget about it.

And if' my colleague will stop hecking me, tren perhaps I could get on. So, Mr. Chairman, as I say, I just wanted to point out to the Member for Riel that this is not la matter of a breach of faith because I can assure him that this is an area where we are still cpncerned and we hope to take the steps in time to do something about it. And I hasten to add: not just secondary education at the university level but the entire spectrum of secondary education, whether it be those people who are attending the Winnipeg Adult School of Education, whom lreally I think we admire or should admire a great deal.

Here are people who for one reaso� or another dropped out of school and say, at the age of 24 to 30, are going back under very difficult conditions with no financial help. These people I think deserve perhaps more credit! and a more greater pat on the back and more recognition than many other who have an easier row to he: e. So we can't just talk about secondary education in the sense of university only.

I We've got to look at the whole spectrum of it, including those who choose to and should atten� our technical institutions, whether they be at the MIA or at The Pas or Brandon or where have you. 'In regard to the other questions of how does one control costs, or as my colleague from I

556 September 8, 1969 (1\iR. MILLER cont'd) . • . . . Winnipeg Centre would have us use the term, how does one control the investment, certainly this is a matter which is going to take up a lot of my time.

I can assure the Member from Riel that it is my intention to meet with the representatives of MA ST , representatives of MT S and any other group from whom I can learn and hopefully who can learn from us, to see whether the common objectives of all of us can be achieved through common consent, through joining together and keeping in sight the objectives that we all ha ve, doing it voluntarily for the betterment of the system and for the betterment of education in Manitoba generally. I want to particularly thank the Member for Ste. Rose for his remarks.

I am very pleased really at some of the comments that he made. He brings to the debate many years of his expe rience and points out quite correctly one of the major problems that Manitoba faces, and that is that we have been and still are exporting some of the finest trained people in Canada. Apparently that's our best export - people.

Anywhere you go you find people from Manitoba holding office all through Canada, some of the highest positions in Canada both in public service and in indus try, and as he puts it, we are training people for filling positions nationally and certainly for that we should be recognized and should share and have a greater claim rather on the national dollar. And I agree with him completely.

One of the basic problems we're going to have of course, if he's aware of it, is to convey to the Federal Government and to receive from the Federal Government their co-operation in recognizing our needs and that they must come up with a formula which is somewhat better than their present per capita formula for financing secondary educatio n, because this is a growing area which is going to require more and more of the tax dollars as the population of our universities expand - and it is expanding; and as the needs of universities grow, then the cost obviously is going have to grow with it.

In order to meet these costs we're going to have to get some assistance, considerable assistance from the Federal Government and share in that regard with them. I don't know whether Manitoba through its own resources can really maintain the kind of university educational system that we'd all like it to have. The Member for Rhineland made a number of points. He wants to know how I feel about centralization.

I have to say to him quite openly I don't share his views and I'm afraid that although I'm not in favour of centralization just for the sake of centralization, I think the kind of centralization that's been taking place in Manitoba the last few years was a necessary type and I'm afraid that I cannot share his views about going back, turning the clock back to the multi district type of system that was operated before.

The Member for Churchill asks and hopes that this government will do something with regard to students in the north regarding integrating the native students with the white students, and certainly this is an area of concern to us and an area in which this government, I can assure him, will look very closely and take what we hope will be effective action to make this possible. With regard to the question he posed about a certain teacher, I didn't catch the area, and if he can give me the information after the session this evening I'll certa inly look into it and find out what it's about.

I had never heard of it but I can try to get the information for him. So with those few remarks, I suppose not everyone will be satisfied that I answered all questions fully, but as I said earlier, these are the estimates of the former government and I am simply introducing them so that we can deal with them. Eleven hours of debate were spent on them already and I feel that at this stage of the game, until we have our own estimates, until we have our own program, I can't see where I can add very much to the discussion. 1\iR. CH AIRM AN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. 1\iR.

EDW ARD Mc GI LL (Brandon West): Mr. Chairman, I don't expect to take very much of your time, but at the outset I'd like to join with my colleagues in expressing our congratula- tions to the Honourable Member from Seven Oaks who has accepted this very important portfolio and the supervision of quite a lot of money, 150 millions I notice from the estimates. Certainly in the last decade there have been great strides in the field of education and I couldn't help but notice that the university grants were estimated this year at 48 .7 million.

I don't know what they were in 1955, but I do know that at that time the struggling Brandon College had $22, 500. 00. I'd be interested to know in due course what the Brandon University's share would be in this year. Brandon University of course has been mentioned before in this House I realize, but I think it probably has some special place in the affectio ns of those sitting opposite me since it numbers among it graduates Tommy Douglas and Stanley Knowles. Not all of the graduates of

Septemfer 8, 1969 557 (MR. McGILL cont'd) •...• Brandon University share their political affiliations, however. We hav� the Honourable Walter Dinsdale and Mr. John D iefenbaker, I think, was also a graduate of Brarldon University. If regional economic development, one of the areas suggested for consideration in western Manito?a was that of education at all levels, and I think this is an area in which we can provide an idea!l environment.

No doubt in the future, as university training throughout our province increases in size and in the variety of faculties offered, Brandon University will also increase proporhonately, and I certainly hope that we'll have more success in promoting regional econorrlic development in this field than in some others in which we feel we also have some advant:\.ges.

We've had rather indifferent success up to this point in the field of agriculture, but I'� sure that the future holds many good things for our area. 'fhere is one area in university training that I think has not been fully exploited in any part ofl Canada up to this point, and this is in the field of aviation. There is not to my knowledge any university in Canada that offers any training in aviation at the university level.

There have been, and there are, a number of universities to the south who have done this quite successfully and wh:o are able to provide training with university status to people who will eventually becom e the pilots and the skilled professional people with the airlines. Purdue University is one, the Univerlsity of Illinois at Urbana, Illinois is another, and there are many more in this field developing rapidly. .

We're somehow at a confused stage in the training of professional people for the airlines in Canhda, and with the increasing complexity of equipment that is coming to the airlines, the JumboiJets that will be on the line within perhaps 18 months or less carrying three or four hundred people, the man at the controls has to be the best trained and the most highly skilled person! available. He has to be a man of high intelligence and he has to have all of the attributes, not onfy those that go with the skill of flying an airplane but the good judgment and the intelli gence to take charge of that kind of equipment.

I'm suggesting that in the very next few years there fuay be a good opportunity for Manitoba to take the lead in this field in Canada. There are colleg�s who claim to be colleges of the air, who claim to give training for pilots to airline level, lbut I think there is nothing that is completely satisfactory and gives everything that the airlines would like, to have of their senior captains.

They would be very pleased to have some uni ver1sity in Canada offer a kind of training that would produce skilled profession al people who would ibe able to assume the responsibilities of the large Jumbo Jets, the supersonic jets to come.! In western Manitoba, if we may get back to that area for a minute, we have an ideal envirdnment for training. We have a fine and growing university and we have already done some �esearch into the possibility of providing a faculty of aviation for aeronautics.

If this can be accomplished in the next five or six years it will be a first in Canada and it will give the ai:ttines some place to look for the kind of people that they're having to find now in a rather I confused situation. We have many fine training establishments at the elementary level in flying, at thejcommercial level, but none that offers a young man who has decided to become an airline pilot t;he combination of a university degree in Arts or Science plus the many varieties of train ing that he will require if he is to becom e an airline captain.

ISo I would hope that we can develop this possibility and that Manitoba can be the first province in Canada to offer a young man who has decided to seek a career in aviation an oppor tunity� to get his degree at the university level and at the same time to acquire the other skills which will be required. I bring this up at this time, Mr. Minister, to tell you that we are think ing along these lines and we hope that as these ideas develop that you will receive them with consi1eration and that we may in the future be able to provide this in Canada. Thank you. IMR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Emerson. :MR.

GABRIEL GIRARD (Emerson): Mr. Chairman, I would like to comment on a few itemsl in the estimates of education. First of all, I would like to congratulate the Minister on being appointed to one of the heaviest duties and responsibilities that you can find in Cabinet. I would like to wish him well in his duties and I hope that I can be of assistance. II'd like also to extend some congraulations to the past govermnent, not on the recent election but rather on the changes that have been brought about in education in the last ten years.

I think it goes without saying that the changes in education in the past ten years far outshine the changes that had been made in the previous 20 years. I Now I'd like to dwell on a few matters and certainly no one can speak at length on educa- tion J,ithout referring to costs and to the allocation of these funds. I'd like to say that I

558 September 8, 1969 (MR. GIRARD cont'd) .. ... education is becoming a very sophisticated profession and it is becoming more diffict:lt for all those involved. It's more difficult today for the teachers who require far more extensive preparation; it's more difficult for the students because more is demanded of the students in spite of the better facilities and a better prepared staff; and of course it's harder on the parents and the landowner and the property owner because he is foot ing the bill, and there's no doubt that this is the harder chore to bear today than it was in the past.

The source of money for the support of education in Manitoba has, as we know, different origins. I'd like just to briefly mention that one of the greatest contributions made to the education of children in Manitoba is from the Foundation Fund. I have no quarrels with the source of money in the way it is obtained by these people who pay out from the Foundation Fund. I would like to stress though, as my Leader has done in the past, that the allocation from the Foundation Fund is to provide a very bare minimum of education.

This was true when the Foundation Program was first originated and I think it's even more true today. I think that today the Foundation Program alone is not sufficient. The money that has to supplement the Foundation Program, as we are again well aware, has to be raised by means of a special levy. I have some quarrel with this method of supplying the added funds because I think it's a very inequitable method of raising this kind of money, and I say this, I say this on the basis of this kind of information.

There is no relation or correlation between the assessment of school divisions in certain areas and the density of population, and I think that if money is to be raised by methods Such as the special levy on the assessment, it should be arranged in such a way that there is a reflection. The denser populated areas ought to be assisted somehow. I have for an example one school division which happens to be assessed at one-third portion of another school division, and yet their school population reflects approximately one to two.

This means therefore that there is a discrepancy because the costs of education is directly related to the number of students. However, after the money has been obtained, there is another area that I'd like to com ment on, and this is the allocation of funds. We have heard from the previous government an attempt to control the expenditures of school boards in the province. I can well realize that this is going to be a nece ssary step eventually in one degree or another. It might not take the form suggested by the prior government, but at least some control will become necessary.

I would strongly urge the government that if controls such as presented in the past are not palatable to them and it is not their intention to introduce these matters over again, that one method could be very helpful to the present school boards. I am of the opinion that the people whom we have elected throughout the province to represent us on school boards are people generally of sincerity and people who want to do a good job. However, they themselves are first to admit that very often they're ill-equipped to take the responsibility that they have been given. They are not financial experts.

They are not curriculum experts. They are simply representatives of the people. In the area of academics, in the area of curriculum and courses and so on, they have been provided with the able superintendent - and a great help that is. However, superintend- . ents themselves are again the first to admit that they are not financial experts - and here I think there is room for assistance.

I would like to see some concrete form of advice flowing from the department if necessary, advising school boards on the financial matters of their particular area, and being of true assistance to them for telling what might happen if their expenditures are not done with some wisdom. In conn ection with financial matters as well I would like to mention one specific area for which I really have little understanding of the method used. At present capital expenditures are paid totally by the department - if they are approved by the finance board.

This means that if a school wishes to purchase desks, or whatever other items listed under capital costs, that they must first suggest to the department that they need these desks; and then they will be answered in a yes or no fashion. What surprises me about this - and mind you I think it's a good method - however what surprises me about ibis is that the department too frequently, I believe, answer yes or no without being thoroughly convinced of what is now in the possession of the division.

And we ought to keep in mind that what is in the possession of the division is really belonging to the province because it is paid by the province at the outset. Most divisions in Mani toba have a system of appraisal which indicates to them what they have in their division. This system of appraisal must, howe ver, be paid by the division itself. I would urge the

I September 8, 1969 559 (MRJ GIRARD cont'd) ..... Honourable Minister that it would be fruitful I think if the province paid for this appraisal, rather than the division; and if the province made use of the apprkisal as well as the division. ' I would like to digress if I could to a few other items. In the field of university education I was pleased to hear the prediction of the Minister in a recent

article that it's likely that in the �ear future, and we don't know just how near, that the university entrance requirement will pe changed from a statistical kind of requirement to an entrance examination. I think that this is a step that will be achieved soon, and not too soon. I also noted that in an

article he said lit was likely to remove the course names - we commonly hear of the commercial course and �e general course and the university entrance course. And this too, Mr. Minister, I wholeheartedly agree with you on this point. I think it's unfortunate that in many areas we are curtailing some possibilities for the students because we want them in one course or another, or because there is a regulation that says_ they cannot take this kind of combination and so on.

I thhlk removal of the course names would remove a stigma, which is not desirable, and it woula also give the flexibility that the students so often require. I I think, also, that we are faced with problems in certain parts of Manitoba that dictate, becav-se of geographical conditions, that we must have small schools existing. I, too, believe that the consolidation that has taken place in the past was a necessary and forward step; but I think to be realistic we must also realize that some parts of Manitoba will find difficulty in bringing about consolidation.

And there is a maximum consolidation - a maximum in terms of miles - that can be brought about by removal of the course names and by removing of the I regulations that are sometimes unnecessary: We are giving the smaller schools an opportunity to gife the best program they can, and again not having to abide by certain regulations that make it impossible today. ! On the qualification of teachers, I was interested to hear the Honourable Member from Churchill state that qualified teachers definitely would be preferable to unqualified teachers. And I think there's no doubt about that.

I often hear the argument, you know, I had a better teaclier that was on a permit than I have today and she's got four degrees or something of that sort. l However, I'd say that the better qualified teacher - the permit teacher if you will given more qualification will still be a better teacher. I would suggest therefore that the arguinent should go a little further; that if today our supply of teachers is getting to be suffl·· I cient, then we ought to start looking at qualification, and we ought to start encouraging further qualification - if we can afford it and obtain the personnel. ! Now, Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to just mention a few things about the petition that was signJd by some members of the opposite side. The Honourable Minister mentioned that he was aoing his utmost. Now I can't quarrel with that word 'utmost'. I'd just like to suggest, Sir, � at the reduction of Medicare showed the utmost, and I think that the utmost could also be sliown in the way of university fees. I In closing, I would like to say that my association with your people in the department has been a very good one, and my impression of those people is much the same.

I have had amic,able relations with your trustees organization and I can well see that these people have a ve1'J' important role to play in the field of education and do in fact represent the population. I'd like to say that the Manitoba Teachers Society is one of the most well organized societies in th� province, and is dedicated not only to salaries but is very professional in its outlook, and they are to be complimented. ! I would like also, Mr.

Minister, for you to remember that you have another capable group in your field, and I'm sure that on solicitation they will be very happy to assist you and that is the Manitoba Association of Superintendents. I think there that you have a nucleous of people who are very well informed- probably the most well informed people that you dan address yourself to, and well intentioned. I hope that they will be of assistance to you, I as I hope to be. !

560 September 8, 1969 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F . JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I too would like to congratulate the Minister on being given the position of Minister of Youth and Education. I know from experience the trying time that he is given from all sectors of political field in his portfolio. I'm not going to dwell on the many factors of education that have been brought up here tonight.

All the points that have been brought up are good ones and the Minister has recognized that and realizes that these problems are there, and has said that he will be looking into them in the future. One thing that does concern me though is his position on the previous White Paper on educa tion. I know the subject that I'm going to speak about is probably like the saying •waving a red flag at a bull' - but it is the time limit on negotiations.

During the election the teachers that approached me about this, I said that I would spend time speaking with the Minister of Education discussing this problem, and I would only like to say to you what I said to most of those teachers - and I found them very easy to talk to from this point of view. I don• t know that time limits on bargain ing is the answer to the problems; let• s say it could be the answer to the problems but maybe there is another way. Mr. Minister, the school teachers in the area I know best is the only example I can give.

We have approximately 800 teachers, and if the average salary is $7, 225 a month- which I have been given to believe - this means that if one percent is miscalculated on budgets, that• s $56, 000 that has to be raised by the taxpayer the next year. In other words, it puts the city or the municipality into a deficit financing position that has to be paid back as I said. Now these monies if it were $100, 000 or something- it could be three percent or something of that nature that has been miscalculated or estimated if the negotiations are not finished.

And I think the Minister through experience knows that this can happen to a municipality. The school board the following year doesn't have to collect this; they turn around and make up their budget and submit it to the municipality. Now there again, as you know, they have to collect it, so the municipality in some way or another may be doing without something the following year because they were not able to get their budget set properly the previous year. Deficit financing to muni cipalities is a very serious thing. Now I don't say that the time limit that has been spoken of is the answer.

I think that it can be worked out. I think that it's got to be worked out in some way that we have these estimates or the bargaining finished with the teachers association by the time they present their budgets to the municipal people who collect the money. I don't believe for one minute, at least the teachers I spoke to, believe that they want to put a municipality into this situation. They're as interested in finding some way of curing this problem as I'm sure you are, and the government side of the House. The only other thing that I would like to say on the White Paper is the central control of money.

This wasn't all that bad. The White Paper suggested that the school board would simply submit a budget to the finance board. The finance board would in turn go over the budget, turn it back to them and they would also have control over the special levy. This also said that if they did not agree with the finance board after negotiation they could raise the extra money by a unanimous decision of the school board, or they could go to the people. Now there• s really nothing wrong with this.

We say the school trustee is an elected member, but elected men such as aldermen and councilmen are responsible to the people who supply the money. And there's nothing wrong with the school trustee being responsible to the people, such as the foundation who are paying out the money; or if they want more, being responsible to the people. We're not suggesting that they can't do the job but all elected members at some time or other have to be responsible to the people. Certainly I realize, as everybody does here, that education is first and foremost in our mind. Our children are the most important thing we have.

But if we let one side get out of hand and go running off in the wrong direction where we can• t control it, the other side is going to suffer; and there's no way around that. So education, although we are l'd like to use the word 'investing' to the Honourable Member from Winnipeg Centre, we are in vesting a lot of money in it- we have to also consider the investments that have to be made for other niceties for children in districts and what have you - parks, swimming pools and this kind of thing. So, Mr.

Minister, I would only say that I would like you to consider that the municipalities and cities do have a problem, and I'm sure you know that, and consider it in your future dis cussions. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, in rising at this time I would like to congratulate the

September 8, 1969 561 (MR. GRAHAM cont•d. ) .... Minister on his portfolio. He has one of the heaviest portfolios in the government and I'm sure that he will exercise his responsibility to the fullest, realizing the obligation he has both to the taxpayer and to the students of the various schools. Now, Mr. Chairman, I realize that we'r e dealing mainly with the De partment of Educa tion, but if I may at this particular time, I would like to take a "kick at the cat" at something that is maybe a rather disturbed cat at this particular time, and it seems to be getting a little more disturbed every day.

At this time I would like to talk about something which comes at this time under the Department of Ed ucation. It's called youth. Now youth can come under the Department of Education, it can come under the Department of the Attorney-General, it can come under the Department of Health and Social Services, under the Department of Labour almost any department you want, and we have youth involved. And the problem today of youth in our society is becoming more im portant every day because we have more of them.

Many of the young people today are to be admired for their contributions to society, and there is always a small group which, in my opinion, are not making contributions to society; in fact they even seem to be protesting against society and everything that our society today stands for. It was very disturbing for me to read in Friday's paper where the Young Men's Christian Association came under attack in Winnipeg Magistrates Court for allegedly not maintaining suf ficient supervision over its boarders and a resultant charge against some young people there.

I have always felt that the YMCA was a credit to our society and was one of the highest youth organizations in existence in the province. Here we find that some people are concerned about the management of that organization. Also in the Winnipeg Tribune, the weekend edition, "T he Generation Gap" -- a large story on the present problems that exist with our youth today . Now I'm sure that every one of us in this CQ.a mber, if they aren' t concerned they should be concerned. I speak not as a member of this, but as a parent who has five children, two of them teenagers and three of them still to come into that class.

So I am quite concerned. And in reading this

article there was a part here which I would like to quote, the interview with a young boy aged 16. He says "I'm always frustrated, I'm in love and there's no girl; I'm overcharged and there's no outlet; I look for a chance to act, to flex my muscles, to feel my strength; I can• t talk about it to my parents. I want to learn the bitter from the sweet by tasting not by talking; I hunger for experience; they feed me explanations. " Now explanations sometimes are forth coming, sometimes they're not, and it seems to me in our society today that it's not just the children of the poor families.

This problem seems to be existing in all social levels. The social status of the parents doesn't seem to affect the outcome the slightest when it comes to this problem of the decadence of our youth of today . I think that we should be very concerned on how we are going to reach these people, how we are going to talk to them and how we are going to make them understand is a very serious problem today . We've tried various forms of educational programs with various methods of teaching, The results as far as the academic standing of the student has been very encouraging.

As far as the moral standard of the student is concerned, I wish we could say we had results that were equally encouraging. Another item I read today, in today's paper, where the University College Student's Society of the University of Manitoba has urged its 750 members not to pay the $10. 00 per course tuition fee increase levied this year. Now, this is to my mind straight defiance of rules . I'm not saying that the $10. 00 increase is justified or ul1iustified. The point is not the argument about that.

It's the straight defiance of the order that was given by the department on the tuition fees and the students have said, we're not paying it, or they're urging that they don't pay. This is just one example of the many forms of defiance we•r e getting today . In another

article in Friday 's paper I noticed that this problem is n't only confined to Manitoba but all over Canada, the North American continent and also in Eu rope; and they're telling there where in England parks have been desecrated in London and the citizens of London are quite alarmed over this situation. It would be a relatively easy thing to control if all the youth today could be lumped into the one category.

Fortunately it' s only a minority group, but it' s the minority groups that taints the picture that is painted of all the youth, and how to seg regate them, how to give them that spark, that desire to work towards becoming a part of our society, towards making a contribution to our society of which they in their later life will be proud is a very difficult thing to do. Now, Mr. Chairma n, I raised this thing at this time to invite discussion from all sides of the House, because I think it is one of the largest single factors that we have to face in the very near future.

With those few words, I thank you very much.

562 September 8, 1969 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Youth and Education. MR. MILLE R: Mr. Chairman, I want to make some comments on the remarks by the Member from Emerson, whose contributions to the debate on education on the few tim es that he has spoken I've found to be extremely helpful and very progr essi ve really. When I introduc ed the bills dealing with education, I found his sugges tions admirable and I can say the same for some of the remarks he made today.

The problem he poses wit h reg ard to trustees who today, particularly in the larger divisions, find thems elves faced with running school syst ems which are comparatively large, large staffs, large expenditures, sophisticated systems which the average lay person can' t always unders tand or isn' t really expected to underst and or to fully comprehend. They don' t have the expertise. A trustee is elected to devote once a week perhaps to the matters of education and we can hardly expect him to be all that knowle dgeable.

And I agree wit h him that some method must be found and should be found hopefully very soon whereby the trustees can be brought together in an in-service training or some sort of seminars wher eby they can be made aware more fully to comprehend the problems that they• re faced with, how to come to grips wit h them, how to unders tand them , and hopefully, therefore, how to deal wit h them .

Ce rtainly I find the member 's remarks very interes ting and we'll follow some of the suggestions that he put forwar d; and I hope in the future that when these suggestions are brought up to legislation that we will get his support at that tim e. I know he• s very sincere in his re mar ks.

The Member for Sturgeon Cr eek poses a problem of which I am aware and he recognizes . that -- the problem and the feeling of many people sitting on municip al co uncils of their cities or towns, and the problems they face or they feel in regard to school budgets holding back their own budgets , perhaps affecting the date on which tax bills go out, and his suggestion is perhaps time limits on negotiations may have to be introduced or be looked at. I know this is a problem. As I say, I myself have lived with it for a number of years. At the same time. I don' t think that a time limit per se is the answer.

I can tell him, and he knows as well as I do, as do other members who sit on municipal councils, who sit in this House, we have the same problems too in dealing with our employees whet her they be in other public servi ce; we have to meet that problem and what we have usually done in the past - I imagine every area has had to make this decision - is the time at which discussi ons end and arbitration st arts .

Perhaps if a school board feel that they have gone as far as they can go, that all normal bargaining has been ex hausted, that that avenue is open to them, then perhaps they should take it; perhaps they should take it far more often than they have taken it, I don' t know. But to simply impose an arbitrary time limit I'm not sure is the answer and that is why we have not taken st eps in that direction. The sugg estion that controls which could be by a central body, that is a Finance Board, which could be overruled by the unanimous vote of the elect orate repres entatives .

I suggest to him if he applied that same theory to municipal councils I don' t think he would be quite as satisfied that it will work.

I suggest to him that looking back on the ma.1y decisions he' s had to make as a member of council, the numb er of decisions made by his council where if it was de pendent upon unanimous support, how often some very good ideas wo•1ld go down the drain; and that really to put your self in a position where one man on any board or any council, or any legislature for that matter, anywhere, has a veto power, I think is putting in the hands of one man a power which he shouldn' t have and which can be dangerous .

This is another reason why I couldn' t see my way clear to follow on the suggestions propo sed on the White Paper . The Member for Birt le-Rus sell poses a question which is one of the most popular ques tions to deal wit h these days - the question of youth, what are you going to do with them. He wonders where they all come from, how many there are; and there' s no doubt there are a lot of them . And all he really has said, boiling it down, is that ther e's a generation gap. I'm sure he's aware of it; we all are.

I'm not sure that I can accept his analysis of the fact that we nave achieved higher educational standards but the moral standards are not quite what lhey should be. They may be different. I'm not quite sure that they're any wors e than ours . We l)erhaps have a different frame of reference than the young people of today and so we look upon them as being out of step with us. Maybe we• re out of step with them. Maybe perhaps adults should look more at what the youth is saying to more rea dily unders tand why they'r e saying it.

I wouldn' t use the word "defiance" in ever desc ribing the young person' s reactions to the adult society. I think it' s too st rong a word. I think the young people today want to think for themselves, they want to be heard and I would hate to see the day when we try to muzzle them or try to prevent them from speaking out. I think that what we are wi tnessi ng is a very

,- -· -�- -� -- ·-�---�-��- -�-�- - �- -�--- �-- - -- September 8, 1969 563 (MR. MILLER cont• d. ) .... refreshing attitude in our society, one that will lead hopefully to a dialogue, because it' s only, and I'm convinced that it' s only through a dialogue that we will ever come to terms wit h the problem. If we as adults insist that our way is right, that only our way is right, then I frankly fear that we will never reach the young people and they in turn will ce rtainly throw up <:heir hands for fear of never reaching us. I recognize that' he is concerned wit h this problem as 'l.re many people .

I know it's not something that we can deal with rapidly. I know it's a matter of, as I say, changing our posit ion somewhat and hopefully young people will recognize that not all adults have two heads and not all adults are out to repress young people. It works both ways. And so long as we have a dialogue, so long as we continue to talk, there is still hope that we can get together and understand each other. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for Birtle- Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I rise again under the hopeful wrong impression that the Minist er has misint erpreted wh.3.t I said.

I was concerned about the sit uation but at no time did I ever condemn them as a group. I feel that we have to have dialogue with this group. I feel that it is most important at this time that the sooner we get at it the better. There's no sense in us hiding our heads in the sand any longer. MR. CHAIRMAN: ..... The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Before we leave the Minist er's salary, I think I should have a few more comments to make. I note in answering to the various questions that I posed to the Minis ter very few of them came forward, and I think a lot was left unanswered.

He referred to the pace of development and so on. I would like to know from the Minist er as far as to research, what is being done in this province in the way of res earch and are we making use of the research that is done in other province s. I know some of the other provinces are spending large amounts in this area,

whereas we'v e spent very little in my opinion. Our es timates , I think the total amount for research under the various headings are less than 10 0, 000, and I'm sure that some of the other provinces are spending much much more. I'm just wondering whether we'r e mak ing use of the res earch that is done in other provinces. Then too, what programs are being conducted in Manitoba in this respect, what areas are being researched. I think the committee should have some knowledge as to what goes on in the department, what we are doing and what we are proposing to do, where we' re heading for.

Surely enough we shouldn't just pass the es timates just because they came up before and probably were dealt with by some members; that doesn't mean that we as a new House, as a new Legislat ure should just give a rubber stamp to what has gone on before. I think honourable members should make it their business to find out for themselves . Where is our money being spent and whether it's being spent in the right way. I've taken the stand repeatedly before that in connection wit h centralization and so on that I don't agree. I feel that there are areas in which we can improve even our legislation today.

I feel that some of our larger towns should have a definite say in their own right as to education, not have to depend on a large divi sion board where they probably have one repres entative on the board. I don't think this is doing justice to the cause in having repres entation by the people. I feel that our larger towns should function on their own, have the right to say on their own just what programs they want and so on. The Minis ter referred to before that certainly he wouldn't want to turn back the clock and go back to what we had before.

I'm no<; suggesting that at all; but I feel that some of our larger communities defini tely should have a much larger say in the education program of this province . Because Mr. Chairman, we just got the report from the provision al plan for education in Manitoba outside the Interlake area and the Metropolitan Winnipeg study area from the Lo<Jal Government Boundaries Commission, and what do we find in the tables ? We find that there is a steady reduction according to their table here - the Appendix "A" - as to the decline in popula tion in rural areas.

Out of 19 propose d divi sions, as they proposed them, from 19 66 to •7 6 only three of them will have an increase in population out of 19 proposed divi sions, and out of those three, only one is going to have an increased student co unt by 1976. Even the two other ones such as the Seine River and the Portage la Prairie one will have less - or Portage la Prairie will have less according to this table - and Brandon is the only one that shows a gain by 1976. So I think I would like to hear from the Minis ter in connection wit h this proposal. What is the department's , what is the government' s stand on it?

Are they going to accept it? Are they going to work on it? What is their program going to be ? Surely we should have some reaction from them as to the government boundaries commission for the future of this provinc e. I don' t agree with some of the members when they get up and apologize for using the time of this

564 September 8, 1969 (MR. FROESE cont'd. ). , .. committee for discussion of the est imat es . I think that' s the pur pose we'r e here for. That• s why the people send us here to take a part and participate in dis cussing these ma tte rs. I have already indicated that I feel that cert ain larger areas, towns and so on, should have a right to determine for them selves certain matt ers .

I also feel that there should be a forum for discussion in the legislation, that the school boards of these places should then report to the people concerned in that area and not just have to report to the department of governm ent. I think the people have a right in this way to get a report from their trust ees as to how they did their jobs and what the situation might be. Today none of them have to - under the new unitary plan - have to report in this way, and I feel that is an error that should be corrected and that they should be answerable to the people of this provin ce.

I think at the same time it would in form the citizens as to where their dollars were being spent and whether they were being spent properly and wisely. The Universit y Grants Commission has already been referred to . I wo uld like to know from the Minister as to the apportioning. When these universit ies make up their budgets , are they being granted the full amount they are asking for? Were they cut down in their est imates? And what expansion has taken place as between the different universitie s? In what fields will expansion take place?

Cert ainly I would like to know because we'r e spending increased amoun ts. Last year it was 36 million ; the present est imates show 43 million; and two years ago it was 24 million. So we'r e increasing the amounts that we are spending for universit y purposes by leaps and bounds, and what is it going to be next year ? Surely the Minister must have some indication as to what we can expect for next year. -- (Interject ion) -- some member says "more" .· . Yes , how much more ? Well I think we should hear from th•'l Honourable Minister.

Ce rtainly he must have consulted his people in his department and they must have advised him by now as to what he can expect. Surely enough even the government front benches must have some indication and be working towards their next year's budget, and surely they must have rece ived some information in this matter as to their various departments . The matter of the centennial projects, it's probably a minor amount, but what is it going to be spent on ? Is it just tokens for st udents ? What are we planning for the st udents of this province for our centennial year ?

This is the one-hundredth birt hday of our province and I think our schools should participate in celebrating this big anniversary. What is being proposed? Is it being proposed in conjuction wit h the Centennial Cor poration or is this the total amount that we are going to spend in connection wit h the ce lebration of our centennial year for our schools ?

Then the Honourable Member for Churchill dwelled on an import ant matter, in my opinion, and this had to do wit h language and that they were short in getting teachers that were qualified language-wise to instruct, and that they had to depend on permit teachers and that the grants were probably not available, or the permits were not being issued. Could we hear from the Minister on this matter because I feel that this problem does not only apply to the Cree, it applies to other groups that want to have the language inst ructed as well.

I think we should do everyt hing in our power to further · languages in this province and that we not limit it to just one or two. I think where we can do this we should help along and support financially wherever possible in this direc tion because it enriches the lives of our people for the future, and cer tainly I think it' s money that is well worth spending. Another matter I m:mld like to· have some more information on is in connection wit h our inspectorate. Are we just providing a Senate, like they have in Ottawa, for some of our senior teacher s?

I can see the validity of inspectors in our multi- district division, but what about in our unitary divisions ? What is the function of an inspector in a unitary division ? Is it neces sary to have them, and just what are their funct ions ? I cert ainly would like to know from the Minister on this matter and whether they intend to carry on wit h inspectors on that basis . Alre ady you referred to this particular rep::>rt and I do hope to hear from the Minister on these various matt ers .

After all, in the statement in the Students' Union it says that they pledged to do their utmost to see that matters become government policy before and during the first ses sion. I think there's a definite commitm ent in ce rtain respects that this will happen right now, imm ediately at the first sess ion, and I would like to hear from the Minister on some of the points that I have raised. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minist er of Youth and Ed t1cation. MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I answered the last point raised earlier so I'm not going to repeat that.

September 8, 196 9 565 (MR. MILLER cont1 d. ) The question of the provisional draft, which the me mber has and which I believe most members received today in the mail, I got mine this afternoon. This is a provisional draft, and for new members of the House who "lren•t aware of how this is done, this is sent out by the Bo:mdary Commission. It is, as is said on the cover, a provisi onal draft issued by the Boand ary Commission. They are charged with the res ponsibility of sending out this draft, then call ing a series of meet ings in the various areas to get the views of the people concerned.

The member asks what is the government' s position on this. The government cannot have a posit ion on it until such time as a final draft is pres ented to us . This is a provisional draft that should be made available to all MLAs as a matter of information. He' s st udied his far more than I have st udied mine. I got mine this afternoon and I haven' t had time to really look at it. The member quotes some figures about a drop in the rural school population, and if that is what the tables show then that' s maybe what it is. I don' t know.

I imagine that the Boundary Com mision must have had some basis on which to make those proj ect ions, and if that is the case then of course the whole problem of maintaining some of these smaller schools become even more acute . He does ask the que stion with regard to res earch and what is being done in Manitoba, and I have to say to him that not too much has been done in the past on research in Manitoba. l'n. hoping that more can be done, particularly in those areas dealing wit h technical training and manpow er. Far more ...... is required and I hope will be started in the not too distant futur e.

Regarding the use of res earch which has already been undertaken in other provinc es where they have done it to a far greater degree than in Manitoba, through the Council of Minist ers of Education there 's been a general agreement that we will exchange information in various areas o:Z mutual concern. We will do this cert ainly, and where research has been un dert aken which we can use and which will apply to Manitoba, then cert ainly we will not duplicate it.

On the other hand, there is some areas where we mu st have our own rese arch facilities, we must have our own evaluations , our own produc tivity st udies , then this will be undertaken in Manitoba. But again I must say to the member that when he asks for commitme nts or about some thing in the future, we are dealing wit h the es timates as are presented now, and wit h these est imates I cannot give any greater details than what has been given before by the former Minister, of which he is aware because we did spend 10 or 11 hours in debate on it.

As far as future policy is concerned, the future program s, when these future policies are developed, when we o:.trsel"ves as a government come to grips wit h them and formulate policies, then naturally we'l l bring them to the Ho:.tse. But until that time we can't say what they're going to be because they haven' t been formulated yet. MR. CH AIRMAN: 103 - 1 (a) -- The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE : Mr. Chairman, I have a few comments I'd like to draw to the attention of the Minister, congratulate him on his elevation and wish him every success in his port folio.

I have sensed for a consi derable numb er of years that I've been in the House the dis satisf action of the school boards and the way that they are involved in the school system, and I'm not going to stand up here and try and tell the Minister or the House that I have all the answer s. I think it 's one of considerable concern. I am aware of a me eting I believe to be held this we ekend bet ween the union and the urban people and the MAST people to deal wit h some of these concerns that are continually with them as to how to resolve the problems of sch ool costs .

I was quite interested in the Minist er' s remarks in answer to the Member from Sturgeon Cr eek where by he said that he was not in favour of time limits, and I didn• t hear his alternative to that met hod. If he did, I apologize to the Minister but I didn' t hear his alternative. I find some suggestions offered amongst the local governments of the cons tituency. A suggest ion has been brought to my attention rec ently as to why or when can the local government sit down and share the tax dollar and share it equitably.

Why can't we arrive at a day when the Mayor of the town or the village, the Reeve of the municipal ity or the urban group and the school trustees can sit down at a table when the tax dollar is being budgeted and share it. I would think in talking to the local governments in my const ituency that they're quite prepared to sit down and negotiate, but not have it brought back in the way that it' s brought back at the present tim e, where by the school division budget and then assess the local government X num be rs of dollars, and that must be delivered on such and such a day.

I think it' s quite evident that the urban

566 September 8, 1969 (MR. McKENZI E cont'd. ) .... people, the muncipal people are willing to wait a year or wait two years in fact for some of the programs that they have in their mind or have in their budget, if in fact the school program is of a higher priority. So possibly the day may come when they could in fact sit down as of some given day and share the tax dollar because it's basically coming from the local people, especially on the special levy. There's one other problem, Mr.

Chairman, that I would like to draw to the Minister's attention, and I've only become aware of it since the boundaries of Roblin constituency have been extended , and that is the problem of Camperville, of which no doubt he will have a chance to take a look at fairly soon I hope. The village of Camperville is split as far as school divisions are concerned.

The north portion of the village of Camperville is in what is known as the Frontier School Divisi on; the southern part of the village is part of the Duck Mountain School Divisi on; and here we have a village where children play ball together, share their churches and things like this together, but when it comes to school on a Monday morning, they go in each direction. Now this is not going to be an easy problem.

It has other complications which no doubt the Minister will find when he reviews it , but I would hope that he would find some time to take a look at it and talk with the local people in Camperville and see if he can't come up with a solution to that problem. I would like to congratulate the teachers of the province for the manner in which they have been handling the problem of integration which the Honourable Member from Churchill spoke about briefly.

I had occasion to watch the integration of the Indian children into the present public school system of this province, and while it 's just starting to break the ice I can see that the teachers and the school board and the department of Education are moving in the right direction.

I find that some programs are more progressive than others, and one that I find that has got some merit is the one that if in fact a teacher could find some way to give special attention to the oldest of the Indian children when he starts to attend school to make sure that that child can make it and pass Grade 1 and pass Grade 2, then he sets the pattern for his brothers and his sisters who come along behind.

But in an awful lot of cases we find that the oldest one, or the first one to start school becomes frustrated for various reasons and he's failed, or for some unforeseen reason he doesn't complete the year and he stays out, and this has a reflection on the other brothers and sisters in the family. I have evidence of this being practice d in one of the schools in my constituency where special help is given to especially the eldest one, extra attention given.

They move him along through the school program and they find that the brothers and sisters who follow along later on have sort of a gladiator to lead the way for them and they seem to find more interest in the programs that are offered. For our Centennial year, Mr. Chairman, I'm wondering if the Minister could find some way to record or preserve the names of some of these rural country school districts that now are plowed up, buildings are gone, trees are bulldozed down and there is no evidence left in the ones that I see regularly that there ever in fact was a school there.

There's a lot of local history involved in those school districts, that was the base of our school system. If in fact he could, with the Minister of Cultural Affairs, come up with some way whereby- even if a little name plate could be put on a fence post to remind people -- and continually people are coming back and will in fact be coming back for our Centennial year -- where was that country school that I used to attend and a lot of them are going to be shocked to find that there is no evidence of where that school was. It's just a suggestion for the Minister and the Minister of Cultural Affairs.

One other thing in closing, and this is one that has been asked of me by some of the ladies ' groups in the constituency, and that is the textbooks that are of no further use to the system, are sitting in school libraries or in some cases are, I understand, ju st destroyed -- if there is not some way that the department could try and move these into channels or libraries some place in our Commonwealth where they could possibly be made some use of.

I agree that there are many students. who cherish their textbooks and take them home and keep them, but in some cases I understand that there is a surplus of textbooks, whether the curriculum has phased out or that, and wonder if we couldn't in the province forward them along to some of the countries in the Commonwealth that maybe could make good and valuable use of. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. MR. McKEL LAR: Mr.

Chairman, I'm one of those that didn't have the privilege of saying anything during the last session, so I' d just like to speak out the clock at this time on

,----·-----· ------------· - ! September 8, 19 69 567 (MR . McKELLAR cont'd.) .... educational estimates. I'd like to congratulate the Minister on the portfolio which he's presently taken over. It's a very difficult portfolio as he will likely know by now, one that involves a lot of people in all the communities in the Province of Manitoba. Myself having represented the area out there for over 11 years now and have saw the changes in education take place during that time, that when you look back you just wonder how those changes all took place without a great del':1 moTe criticism than what there were.

But in the area in which I presently live in the Souris Valley School Division, things have operated fairly efficiently in that area with very little trouble with their building programs and that. I have before me here a tax bill and I want to relate the mill rates to you here because the mill rates I think are about the lowest in Manitoba. The municipal mill rate in our municipality is 19 mills, our school costs are 20.5 mills.

I don't think there's a municipality I would imagine in Manitoba with a lower mill rate, Now I want to relate part of this is due because we have a pipeline running through our municipality which pays 20 percent of the cost of municipal education within our municipality. The Honourable Member for Rhineland I think has quite a few pipelines I imagine running through his municipality too. But the municipalities that do have these pipelines running through their .... HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour)(Transcona) : Was this educational pipe lines? MR. McKELLAR: .

If the Honourable Minister of Labour will just keep quiet here, I'l l finish my speech a lot sooner. When he sat over here he never stopped speaking till he hit the 40-minute limit. Maybe I'll do that very same thing because I know it's quite easy to speak 40 minutes when you're over on this side of the House. All you'v e go to do is get a book or two out and start reading

chapter and verse. I think this has been one advantage these municipali ties have had who have a pipeline running through paying this 20 percent, Now the municipali ties that don't have this advantage are really in trouble because their mill rates are at least 25 percent higher. In the areas which are not in the single division, unitary division, such as Tiger Hills which the Honourable Member for Rock Lake and I represent here, their mill rate is very very high and they' ve had real problems in dealing with their building program at the high school level. This has gone on for a number of years.

I'm wondering, Sir, if this Boundaries Commission report deals with this very problem or whether it just deals with problems in the Inter lake, I'm not aware of what you're mentioning -- (Interjection) -- yes. Well we'll hear more about that, maybe someone can explain what's -- likely my report's gone out to my farm, I guess . But in any case we 'll know better when we read the report. A MEMBER: Better nobody explains it to you Earl, it might be too bad. MR.

McKELLAR: Now education I think - and I was just wondering the other day when there was such a lot of laughing going on, when we're decreasing Medicare costs, and lo and behold when the government were over on this side of the House - we're going to get rid of all the school costs, the government should absorb all the school costs, the property owner shouldn't be burdened with this here cost.

Now I don't know what kind of a banker the Minister of Finance is, but he's going to have one awful time as far as I can see lowering Medicare costs, getting rid of all the school costs and putting them on other tax bases that he might think that they'd be better placed on, on ability-to-pay. Because heaven knows there's not many people left in that category with the situation in the rural areas like they presently are. I'm hoping the Minister will give an answer on what his plans are for the future dealing with removing the cost of education from the property owner.

Now, House Leader, is this 10 o' clock or should I keep going. A MEMBER: Carry on, keep on going. MR, PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I hate to interrupt my honourable friend when he is really raring to go, but I would move, Sir, that the Committee rise and report. MR, CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee has adopted certain resolutions and directed me to report progress. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre, that the report of the Committee be received. MR.

SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried . MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Education, that the House do now adjourn. MR, SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House adjourned until 2:3 0 Tuesd ay afternoon.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-1-24
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 1st hansardpdf 24.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	38c4bf8295dc7e6252a763f5a05ef8a6fd5f2d6d

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