May 3, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 655 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Thursday, May 3, 1984 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 p.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 261

An Act to Amend the Mortgage Brokers Regulation Act MR. ZIP: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce Bill 261,

An Act to Amend the Mortgage Brokers Regulation Act. The purpose of this Bill is to set out clearly all the costs and terms included in the repayment terms of each mortgage. [Leave granted; Bill 261 read a first time] head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS MR. MUSGROVE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to introduce to you, and through you to the rest of the Assembly, 27 very enthusiastic grade 9 students from Griffin Park school, which is located in the Bow Valley constituency. They are accom­ panied by their teachers Mr.

Larry Regner and Kay Thibert, by parent supervisors Bob Redpath, Trudy Zimmer, Martin Peel, and Murry Rust, and by bus driver Sharon Kuiper. They are seated in the public gallery, and I ask them now to rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. MR. KROEGER: Mr. Speaker, in the members gallery are 26 grade 9 students from Consort junior high, accompanied by their group leader Dawn Tinsh, teachers Larry Kjearsgaard and Garrick Blain, and parents Ruth Forsberg and Elaine Spencer. Would you rise and receive the welcome of the House? MR. HARLE: Mr.

Speaker, it's my privilege today to be able to introduce a group of 33 grade 6 students from Castor ele­ mentary school. They are accompanied by teachers Mr. Goring, Mrs. Dunkle and Miss Wiuff, bus driver Mr. Turnbull, and parents Mrs. Welsh, Mrs. Renschler, Mr. Holloway, Mrs. Clarke, and Mrs. Campbell. I would also like to take the opportunity to advise members of the Assembly that included in the group of teachers is Mrs. Dunkle. It was on her and her husband's farm, and at Big Knife Provincial Park, that the infestation of spruce budworm was discovered. They are in the members gallery.

I ask them to stand and receive the welcome of the Assembly. MRS. EMBURY: Mr. Speaker, it's my pleasure this afternoon to introduce to you, and through you to members of the Assem­ bly, 42 grade 6 students from Varsity Acres elementary school. They are accompanied by teachers Margaret Vogel and Carol Batycky, parents Pam Slaughter, Verna Smith, and Dawn Kepatrick, and bus driver Alf Denner. They are in the public gallery, and I ask them to rise and receive the usual welcome of the Assembly. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD West Edmonton Mall Expansion MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct the first question to the hon. Minister of Tourism and Small Business. It's with respect to Canada fantasy land, the proposal by Triple Five Corporation for phase three of West Edmonton Mall. My question to the hon. minister is simply this: is the minister in a position to tell the House whether he has received an appli­ cation or whether representation has been made to either the Alberta Opportunity Company or the government with respect to investment in this project? MR. ADAIR: Mr.

Speaker, I have received a letter from the Triple Five Corporation to me as Minister of Tourism and Small Business. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Is the minister in a position to advise the Assembly whether the letter outlines a proposal for a loan, a grant, an equity investment, or what? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, I believe the best way of putting it is that they, as many entrepreneurs in the province of Alberta, have suggested to us the possibility, by request, of consideration of a grant or a loan or something along that basis for their particular project.

My understanding is that they have also forwarded that to possibly other government departments, to the federal government, and to a number of the construction unions, seeking support through their pension funds. I think it's their privilege to do that as entrepreneurs in this province. As minister of tourism, I should point out that it's a very interesting proposal. Indeed it has some merit from the stand­ point of tourism. I suggest that it has some major merits in that particular package.

But I should also point out that government policy is primarily to improve what we might call the invest­ ment climate in this province, so projects of this nature can in fact seek their own funding level through private-sector com­ mercial institutions as a result of the firm and stable policies of this government. MR. NOTLEY: Then we might start by repealing the 13 percent increase in personal income tax. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. minister if he can be a little more specific in terms of the representation he has received from Triple Five.

Has it been with respect to any figure? [interjection] Just calm down across the way. He's still a bit agitated from yesterday. The minister across the way isn't agitated enough though. I would like to find out whether any figure has been outlined by the Ghermezian brothers in their representation to the government. MR. ADAIR: There were a number of figures presented in the letter, Mr. Speaker. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Since I am sure this government, committed as it is to open government, would like to share this information with Alber- tans, could the minister outline what the range in figures was?

656 ALBERTA HANSARD May 3, 1984 MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, two things should be pointed out. Number one, the letter is addressed to me. If I were to talk about the letter itself, I would need some permission from those who wrote the letter. Having said that, it was also forwarded, as I said, to a number of individual MLAs in the city of Edmonton and I believe to other government departments, the federal government, and a number of construction unions.

Again, as I pointed out — and I will just repeat what I said earlier — our position as a government is primarily to ensure that we have the right investment climate, so projects of this nature or entrepreneurs of this type can in fact proceed through normal channels to obtain funding for a project like that. It would certainly be a major benefit to this province from the standpoint of tourism.

If I may, as minister of tourism I should also add that when this project is completed, whenever that may be, we would be more than pleased to consider the possibility of promoting that all around the world in our tourism brochures. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Given the minister's answers to date, will he give the Assembly the assurance that meetings will be scheduled with both the down­ town businessmen's association and other businessmen's asso­ ciations in the city — east Edmonton's, as an example — before any commitment is made on the proposal by Triple Five? MR. ADAIR: Mr.

Speaker, before I would provide any com­ mitment of that nature, I would first have to ascertain whether there have been requests from any other organizations. We have always been open about that. We're prepared to sit down with any group — private-sector entrepreneurs or any associ­ ation that may have concerns. I say we; I would be one of possibly a group of many members of this government who would be interested in ensuring that all requests or suggestions or recommendations are heard and dealt with. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Given Alberta Opportunity loans in other parts of the city, whether it's east Edmonton or 82nd Avenue or downtown, would the minister undertake, through the Alberta Opportunity Company or under some aegis of the government of Alberta, an assess­ ment of the impact of the Triple Five proposal and the phase three expansion of West Edmonton Mall on other shopping districts in Edmonton in particular, and the ability of those businessmen who have Alberta Opportunity loans in those other areas to make repayment? MR. ADAIR: Mr.

Speaker, relative to the Alberta Opportunity Company — and I'm not sure how the Alberta Opportunity Company has come into this particular set of questions and answers. Having said that, I might point out that prior to accept­ ance of that particular loan proposal, whoever it may be, the Alberta Opportunity Company as a corporation individually assesses any application that is made and the ability of that company to repay; then in many cases works with them, some­ times providing additional counselling services to them that they now will provide to businesses that have loans with them.

As I outlined, and I'll repeat it again, this particular company, as does any other company or any other private-sector entre­ preneur, has the right to sit down and request of us — in this particular case, either me or other ministers of this Crown — to deal with and look at a request they may have.

As I said, my main concern is that we as a government provide the opportunity — the investment climate — for them, whoever they may be, to in fact ensure that, number one, it is there and they can work through the system, the normal private- sector lending institutions, and in fact get the kind of financing they're looking for and get on with the project. Set that aside and, as minister of tourism, I am more than interested in the project itself and, should it be completed, the ability to ensure that people around the world know we have it here in the province of Alberta. MR.

NOTLEY: Just one final supplementary question. Given the West Edmonton Mall expansion and the concern of down­ town business people, could the minister advise the Assembly whether there are any plans in place to ascertain what efforts have been taken to respark the Triple Five proposal for the five acres it owns in the downtown core of the city? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, I can't respond to that because I'm not aware of the five acres or the implications of the five acres on the letter I have. MR. HYNDMAN: Mr.

Speaker, by way of supplemental infor­ mation that can be provided in addition to that of my colleague, one of the questions asked was: what is the possibility of government investment in Fantasy Land? The answer I would give at this time is that it is unlikely. [Several members rose] MR. SPEAKER; We have several members wishing to ask supplementaries. Might I first recognize the hon. leader of the Independents, followed by the hon. Member for Stony Plain and then the hon. Member for Edmonton Belmont. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister of Tourism and Small Business, and it has been partly answered already. Was the request for the meeting with the minister in terms of familiarization of the minister with the program, or was the request specifically for funds? If so, in responding to the request for a meeting, which would be the priority of the minister? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, in responding to the request for a meeting with the Triple Five Corporation, we have already had a meeting with them.

They have shown us their project and, as a result of their showing us that project, they have forwarded a letter to us — as I said earlier, not only to us but to the federal government, to the construction unions because of pos­ sible use of their pension funds, and also to other departments. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. At that earlier meeting, was any encouragement given to the Triple Five Corporation that the government would make funds available? The Provincial Treasurer now seems to have clarified that. MR. ADAIR: My response to that, Mr. Speaker, would be no. MR.

PURDY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a supplementary question to the Minister of Tourism and Small Business and ask if, in the proposals Triple Five Corporation put before the minister and the government, they have given any projections of how many of the unemployed people, who I'm sure the opposition are worried about, would be included in such a project? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, I am trying to go on recall right now. I believe that in the presentation they made to us, they outlined the number of people that would be involved in job

May 3, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 657 opportunities during the construction stage as well as during the actual working stage, but I don't have those figures with me. MR. SZWENDER: A final supplementary. Could the minister indicate whether any of the trade unions making representation in support of the project to the minister are major contributors to the NDP? [interjections] MR. MARTIN: Is he being silly again? Little boy blue. Game Farm – Cardston MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, setting aside that last question, if it can be called a question, I'd like to direct my second question to the hon.

Associate Minister of Public Lands and Wildlife in a somewhat more serious vein. It deals with the proposed revision of the Wildlife Act and the philosophy con­ tained therein, particularly with respect to private game farms. My question is: what is being done to assist the game operation in Cardston, where 100 reindeer have been brought in and the operators have on their hands the problem of a large number of these animals dying from starvation and other diseases? What is being done by the department with respect to this problem? MR. SPARROW: Mr.

Speaker, my colleague the Minister of Agriculture may want to supplement this. Our department has been made aware of the reindeer problem in the Cardston area. They are working with the veterinarians in the Department of Agriculture, assisting them in analyzing the health problems. We are endeavouring to do whatever we can to assist the owners of these animals. The welfare of the animals is the key issue our attention is on right now. MR. NOTLEY: A supplementary question to either hon. min­ ister.

Is the government able to confirm today that there is a serious problem with starvation, that 29 animals reportedly died, and that provincial and federal animal health officials are currently checking the herd for warble fly infestation as well as suspected brucellosis? MR. SPEAKER: We just about have a ministerial announce­ ment to which the minister is being asked to say amen. MR. NOTLEY: No, hardly at all, Mr. Speaker, with great respect. On a point of order, I want a specific question. Whether or not the minister has mentioned the diseases, are we talking about suspected brucellosis at this stage? MR.

SPARROW: Mr. Speaker, I am awaiting reports from the veterinarians. We looked very seriously at moving these ani­ mals to a quarantine station. The movement of those animals would have been devastating, and the shock to them would have been too much. They are basically under quarantine. Where they are on the ranch physically, they're well fenced. Some of the animals have a warble problem, and the veter­ inarians are working with that. They also are checking the records and testing to make sure of any other type of disease.

Apparently the herds these came from originally were well tested for brucellosis, and definitely the vets are checking into all types of disease. With reference to the deaths of the animals, I think the shock to their systems and the change of feed are the main problems that have been identified. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Given the minister's answer — and certainly we can all understand that the change in feed and bringing animals whose natural habitat is the arctic to Cardston is quite a shock — I'd like to ask if the minister can tell us whether there was any discussion with either the Department of Agriculture or the Public Lands and Wildlife people before the herd was brought from Inuvik and relocated in Cardston, and whether or not there was any encouragement as part of the government's new approach to private game farming. MR. SPARROW: To my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, the answer to the last part of that question is no.

I would have to check with our department to see whether any of our staff discussed it prior to coming in. I think the owners, Mr. and Mrs. Gordon Sherman, are very sincere people. They were very definitely under the impression that these animals are domestic, as they are considered to be in the Northwest Territories and in other provinces. They felt that they did not have to check with my department prior to bringing them in, with reference to the Wildlife Act. MR. NOTLEY: A supplementary question.

Given his answer with respect to the two operators, could the minister advise what special kind of assistance will be provided to help deal with the problem? Also, is it accurate — is the minister in a position to confirm that fish and wildlife officials have said that this Cardston game farm could be considered an illegal busi­ ness, because no game licence was taken out by the operators? Is that the position of the government?

If not, what kind of position is going to be in place to cope with what is a serious problem, not only from the standpoint of the animals in question but the concerns of people in the area? MR. SPARROW: As I mentioned earlier, Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge this is the first time we have specifically had reindeer brought into the province in a live state. About nine bulls and 90 cows were brought in. Fifteen young calves have been born in the last month on that site, and several others are in the calving process. It is a very emotional problem for the people involved, and they definitely need assistance.

We're trying to assist them through both the Department of Agriculture and ourselves. With reference to the problem of whether or not they are here illegally, if one takes a very quick, cursory look at the Act, you would most likely answer yes. There are very defi­ nitely things we could do with reference to seizure and other things. The occupants of the ranch, Mr. and Mrs. Sherman, have definitely been under the impression that they are domestics. There was a recent case in Quebec, where a similar type of event happened.

After two years in court, they were declared domestics, and the Crown had to pay the expenses of all the animals for the two years, et cetera. I'm taking a very cautious look at that side of it. We're looking at it very seriously, the welfare of the animals being our first priority. We will be reviewing not only our Act — hopefully we can get the first reading in this spring — but the regulations and previous law cases with specific reference to reindeer. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, one final supplementary ques­ tion.

Now that we're planning a new Wildlife Act, which the minister has indicated will be introduced during the spring session, can the minister advise what consideration is being given to the definition of captive wildlife and what review will be undertaken of how regulated new game farm industries will be, particularly in areas where there is, in the case of reindeer, a different climate and different milieu entirely?

658 ALBERTA HANSARD May 3, 1984 MR. SPARROW: As you all know, Mr. Speaker, last fall I placed a discussion paper in the House. One of the prime ideas of that was to get that very basic topic talked about in the public. We received a lot of replies throughout the winter. I extended the deadline to April 13. We are just finalizing all the submissions. With reference to your question, hopefully we will be able to give first reading to the Bill in this Legis­ lature, and I'll very definitely clarify that.

We are looking forward to having the summer to finalize any more input people want to give us, and have second and third reading in the fall. With specific reference to game ranching, the Act may give us the right to create regulations. Definitely, though, a discus­ sion paper is being prepared right now that will be widely circulated over the summer — if we proceed with game ranch­ ing, how it would be handled. We'll definitely be looking for a wide cross

section of input from the public on that issue. At the same time, we will also be looking at the game farming regulations, which we already have in place. There may be several considerations as to changing or adding to the game farm regulations as such. Those two papers will be discussed before any changes are made with reference to game ranching or game farming per se. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the associate minister. My understanding is that at the Lambco plant in central Alberta, reindeer are slaughtered and meat is sold.

If my assumption is correct, I am wondering what the difference is between those reindeer and the ones we're dis­ cussing at the present time. MR. SPARROW: I'm glad you brought that up. For quite a number of years, Mr. Speaker, processed reindeer has entered the province to the Lambco plant. It was primarily shipped from the Northwest Territories or Quebec or Ontario. It was processed there, approved by the federal government, and sold throughout the province. You can have reindeer steaks in a lot of the restaurants today. A lot of reindeer meat has been through that system. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. In terms of that business cycle, those reindeer are considered domestic reindeer. Do they have to meet any kinds of requirements that may be different from the ones we're talking about in southern Alberta at Cardston? MR. SPARROW: No, the reindeer you're referring to have in the past been killed at Tuktoyaktuk or in the Northwest Ter­ ritories, approved there by the federal Department of Agricul­ ture, and shipped to the plant — I think it's at Innisfail. These are basically out of the same herds as those that have been shipped down as processed meat. MR.

FJORDBOTTEN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to supplement the answers of my colleague. Even though reindeer do fall under the jurisdiction of the Department of Public Lands and Wildlife, the Department of Agriculture has been involved in assisting that department, particularly through the two veteri­ narians from the provincial government in Lethbridge and one from the federal government, basically working on providing technical assistance with respect to warbles. I would like to alleviate any concern.

It's my understanding that these warbles that infect cattle are not the same warbles that infect reindeer, so there is no danger to livestock in the immediate area. Also, the federal veterinarian at Lethbridge is looking into the whole concern with respect to brucellosis. At this point I am aware of no confirmation that they do have brucellosis, but that particular disease falls under the jurisdiction of the federal government. With respect to the starvation that may have caused death, I might say that I don't believe that is correct. There was a change in feed involved in coming from Alaska to here.

That had some impact on the death of some animals. The veterinary branch of the Department of Agriculture is involved in the postmortems on those animals, and I have not yet received any report on what the cause of death may have been. In addition to that, Mr. Speaker, it's my understanding that the animals there are isolated enough and the fencing is proper, so there's no immediate danger to anyone in the location. Public Pension Changes MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Provincial Treasurer is with regard to the pension announcement yester­ day.

The announcement has a significant effect on the mem­ bership of the AUMA and the AUPE members of the province. I am wondering if the minister could indicate what consultation took place before this announcement was made to the Legis­ lature yesterday. Were the two respective organizations aware of the contents of this announcement, and did they have input? MR. HYNDMAN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, there were discussions involving all the aspects referred to in that news release, not only the matter with regard to the increase in contributions but also the seven or eight other items relating to major rewrites of the six Acts. Those consultations have gone on for the better part of 15 months with the various pension boards. There are five pension boards involved, and they have representation from a number of the groups involved in receiving benefits under the pensions.

As well, of course, there has been notice to the various groups in the last two annual reports of the Auditor General, wherein he indicated that there were three choices open in terms of prudent financing in order to proceed with an improved funding of pensions. So there was communication, and yes­ terday morning I was in contact with the president of the AUMA as well as the executive director of the AMDC. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, could the Provincial Treas­ urer indicate whether, in those contacts of yesterday morning, there was approval and consent to the announcement as such? MR.

HYNDMAN: I think it would be appropriate for the hon. gentleman to secure information from those organizations. Generally, though, I can say that I think the members of pension funds in the public sector would view it as important that the integrity of those pension funds and the benefits they will be receiving when they retire are preserved and maintained. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure whether they agreed or not didn't matter anyhow. The other question I'd like to ask the Provincial Treasurer is with regard to the Auditor General's 1983 report.

On page 47, the Provincial Treasurer indicated that on March 31, 1984, the valuation of the six plans, plus the Teacher's Retirement Fund, would be available. My question is, were those valua­ tions available to the minister in order to make the decision with regard to the announcement yesterday? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, the valuations with regard to the closeout of the fiscal year ended March 31, 1984, are not yet available; they have not yet been made available to us to assess. We were proceeding on the basis of the chart on page

May 3, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 659 48 of the Auditor General's report, wherein he indicated that various actuarial studies had been made in 1981 by March 31 and had been extended and estimated both by the audit office and by the Auditor General to March 31, 1983. So both the government and the Auditor General are proceeding on the basis of the same estimated actuarial valuations. Before long, as soon as they're received, we should have an update on where the situation stands as of March 31, 1984. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Could the minister indicate whether any type of historic assess­ ments have been made as to what the actuarial liability would have been if we'd had a funded plan over this period of time? Would we have been faced with the actuarial deficit or unre­ corded liability of over $4 billion, as is indicated on page 48 of the report? MR. HYNDMAN: There would have been no liability if there had been a funded pension plan from 1905. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, to the Provincial Treasurer. That's a very accurate statement.

But the concern I have had recorded with me is that on the basis of the pension funds being funded, at this point in time there should have been a surplus rather than this actuarial liability. If that is true, then the increases announced yesterday by the minister would not have been necessary. MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, that's simply not the case. What we're relying on here are the approved statements endorsed by the Auditor General of the province of Alberta. In his reports he has made it very clear that he finds that the information provided is entirely adequate, that there has been adequate disclosure.

Members realize, of course, that there's a listing in the public accounts of the investments with regard to the pension fund. So any suggestion that there's anything improper with regard to the fund is certainly — by the Auditor General, the exact opposite is the case. He has indicated that he is satisfied with the pension funding. He has indicated there are liabilities which should be looked at, and we've done that. We haven't moved in the way of benefits or in the way of extra moneys to the pension fund, as was done in 1981.

But we have moved to a pay-as-you-go plan for those who are presently employed, which is prudent and responsible. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. In terms of funding of the pension plans, is the minister con­ sidering further funding, possibly complementary to the $1.1 billion that has already been placed in the pension fund? What considerations are being made of that proposal at the present time? MR. HYNDMAN: We're not considering that at this time, Mr. Speaker.

A look at the budget of the province and the fiscal situation we're now in and have been in for the last two years indicates very clearly why that is the situation. So we're not considering making any change of that kind at this time. The third option would be to reduce benefits, and we're not considering that as a practical option at this time either. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister.

Outside of the public pension plans that were mentioned in the announcement, are there any plans to increase the rates with regard to the other public pension plans that were not enumerated in the announcement yesterday? MR. HYNDMAN: Not at this time, Mr. Speaker. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. Will "not at this time" mean not in the fiscal year 1984-85? MR. HYNDMAN: That's certainly correct, Mr. Speaker. MR. KING: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to supplement the answer of my hon. colleague, just so there is no confusion about this.

The Teachers' Retirement Fund is legislation for which the Minister of Education is responsible, and I wish to advise that there is a joint committee at work considering a number of possible changes to the Teachers' Retirement Fund Act. We have absolutely no idea how long the work of that committee will take. We have not given them any deadline; we have not given them any particular issues or aspects of the legislation to consider. MR. McPHERSON: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

Could the Provincial Treasurer indicate if unfunded liabilities in public- sector pension plans require that the government pay interest on the unfunded portion of unfunded liability? MR. SPEAKER: That really seems to be a question of law. MR. McPHERSON: I'm confused on that, Mr. Speaker. I'll try it again. Could the Provincial Treasurer indicate whether, if the government took a policy position of funding the liability of pension plans, they indeed would have to pay interest on the funding of that plan? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, that approach would bring it closer to a full funding.

But as I indicated in the news release, with the fiscal situation as we now have it, we've gone partway toward that direction. Pursuant to the announcement yesterday, we have a pay-as-you-go situation with regard to current costs, but we can't go the full direction at this time. Minimum Security Facility — Alsike MRS. CRIPPS: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Solicitor General. Has the minister had communication from the resi­ dents of Alsike area, regarding the government decision to operate the former AADAC centre as a minimum security centre? DR. REID: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, a committee of residents com­ municated with the Premier's office and with me. I believe there was a response sent to the chairman of that committee on Tuesday this week. MRS. CRIPPS: Could the minister outline the government pol­ icy regarding minimum security? MR. SPEAKER: I wonder if that can be done within the scope of the question period. The minister might wish to deal with it briefly. DR. REID: Mr. Speaker, perhaps the letter that was sent back to the committee did not clarify the point on minimum security. The minimum security function is one of the centre.

It applies to the category of the people who are in the centre. They are transfers from other correctional centres who have been screened and allocated as being very unlikely to walk away even if the opportunity arises.

660 ALBERTA HANSARD May 3, 1984 The other item that perhaps I should mention to the hon. member is that the offences for which these people have been convicted are of a nonviolent nature. They do not involve residential theft. They involve minor offences related to perhaps the liquor Act, impaired driving, or items like that. These people are regarded as being a minimal risk to the residents of the area if they do indeed walk away from the facility. MRS. CRIPPS: What guarantee is there that the local residents would not be in danger because of the proximity of the facility and the loose security? DR. REID: Mr.

Speaker, the security is not exactly loose. The Alsike facility is staffed 24 hours a day by fully trained cor­ rectional officers. There are routine and irregular numerical checks to detect if any of the offenders have indeed left the premises unofficially. When they do leave the premises offi­ cially to work off-site in the surrounding communities, they will be accompanied by correctional officers, as indeed happens at the other nine or 10 facilities of this type operated around the province. MRS.

CRIPPS: What opportunity would there be for local residents to become involved, and is there a government policy regarding citizen involvement in these centres? DR. REID: Mr. Speaker, local residents will be involved in many ways. The on-site employees of the department are by and large local residents and will continue to be so. In addition to that, local residents may be involved with the volunteer programs which will be operated at Alsike as they are at the other similar facilities.

Local residents can become involved in the rehabilitation of these people prior to their release into society as fully active members of society. The other involvement of local people, of course, is the ability to have the inmates at Alsike take

part in rehabilitation of surrounding parks, municipal parks, maintenance around senior citizens' lodges, and that type of thing. So there's lots of opportunity for involvement by the local residents. Indeed that involvement often adds to the success of these facilities, in that it aids in the acceptance of the facilities in the local community. MRS. CRIPPS: Lastly, Mr. Speaker, what assurance does the community have that this initial step will not lead to an expan­ sion of the facility or overcrowding? DR. REID: Mr. Speaker, facilities such as Alsike are for limited numbers.

They are usually in the vicinity of 20 offenders. Alsike is classified as having a capacity of 22. Usually there will be about 18 people there because of the fluctuations. It is not the custom of the department to increase the capacity of these facilities. Certainly the one at Alsike would not accom­ modate more than 22 because of the facilities in the central building being limited to that number. MRS. CRIPPS: I said that was the last one, but I'd like one more, Mr. Speaker, if I might. Are there other minimum secu­ rity facilities with people in close proximity, as they are at Alsike? DR. REID: Yes there are.

Several in the province are of a type similar to Alsike, in close proximity to small communities. I should perhaps point out that there are larger facilities with the same category of offender in them. The facility at St. Paul is completely surrounded by residential property. At the Belmont minimum security facility in northeast Edmonton, where the facility was first, there's been a very large development of residential housing, both single-family dwellings and apart­ ments, in the immediate vicinity. Health Care Premiums — Students MR. MARTIN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct my question to my friend the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care. [inter­ jections] Can he outline to the House why postsecondary stu­ dents who are receiving student loans and of course living on restricted incomes are not normally eligible for waiver of med­ icare premiums? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I have to take that question as notice, because many of those students are covered by their family premiums. If they're on their own, there would be a different situation — if they filed their own income tax, et cetera, and were officially on their own.

So I'd like to get some clarification on the question and report back to the member. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I'd certainly add some clarifi­ cation for the report back. My second question, though, has to do with what consider­ ations led to the policy of requiring that students must include Alberta health care insurance premiums as a monthly expense when they apply for a student loan? That's on the form. MR. SPEAKER: It would seem to me that the very nature of these specifics indicates the Order Paper. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Unless the ministers want to take them as notice.

MR. MARTIN: Let me ask some questions, because there's a number flowing from it. MR. SPEAKER: It's difficult to have a long list of supple­ mentaries to a question that is accepted as notice. The supple­ mentaries may or may not be appropriate, depending on the answer to the question that's taken as notice. MR. MARTIN: I'll ask one more question then, because there are a number that I'll perhaps talk to the minister about.

In view of the fact that need is a prime prerequisite for achieving a student loan and in view of the dismal job situation for students, would the minister be prepared to waive medicare premiums for students receiving loans? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure if that would be a good blanket policy, but any Albertan is entitled to receive emergency financial assistance for medical expenses. That's a segment of the health care insurance plan. If a student is eli­ gible, he'd qualify in the same way as would a working adult or a low-income adult. So I suppose it depends on the individual circumstances.

For example, I know students who are covered by their families' health care insurance plans and whose families have excellent incomes but who have achieved student loans on their own. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I'm talking about individuals, not about families. They are covered. I'm talking about individuals who receive a student loan. They have to go through a procedure to get a student loan, as the

May 3, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 661 minister is well aware, and that's based primarily on need. The only question I asked is: would the minister waive the prereq­ uisite just for those students, because need has already been taken into consideration? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I have the impression I'm not understanding the member's question, and that's why I'd like to take it as notice. The point I'm making is that many families include in their family health care insurance premium their adult children who are attending advanced education facilities. Their premiums are paid by their families, not by the students.

So they're covered through their family plans. Highway Safety DR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Transportation is with respect to the increased traffic flow in the province now that the good weather is back, in particular the amount of traffic that was flowing along highways 1 and 2 on the holiday weekend. Would the minister give consideration to posting "slow traffic right lane" signs to help traffic flow and passing safety? MR. M. MOORE: I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker. Could the hon. member repeat the question? I didn't get the full import. DR.

CARTER: He was obviously in the slow lane. [interjec­ tions] To the Minister of Transportation: given the highway count, and especially the heavy traffic on highways 1 and 2 on the holiday weekend — incidentally, I've a vested interest; I was almost killed twice getting between here and Calgary on Good Friday — will the minister give consideration to posting "slow traffic right lane" signs to help traffic flow and passing safety? MR. M. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member makes a very good point with respect to how people should conduct their driving habits on four-lane highways.

In fact the situation is that the department is supposed to have erected, at about 10- mile intervals on our four-lane highways, signs which instruct people to use the right lane if they're driving slower than the normal flow of traffic. DR. CARTER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Can shoulders be strengthened on some of these highways — especially High­ way 1 where we have two lanes, and the traffic flows in either direction — and some of the markings repainted to allow pass­ ing lanes? MR. M. MOORE: Mr.

Speaker, as members of the Assembly know from other comments I've made, we are embarking on a program wherein when we reconstruct primary highways of a two-lane standard or overlay them to strengthen the pavement, we are implementing a program of putting passing lanes at regular intervals in either direction. With regard to existing highways, however, it is permissible for vehicles to use the shoulder of the highway when they're travelling at a slower speed and other vehicles come up behind them.

As a matter of fact, the Highway Traffic Act provides that if you're pulling a trailer and more than three vehicles come up behind you on a two-lane road, you are required to pull over to the shoulder of the road and allow those vehicles to pass. We encourage motorists who are driving on those highways to pull over at any time they feel they're impeding traffic and allow those other vehicles to bypass them. DR. CARTER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, flowing from the answer.

Would the minister consider contacting the camp commanders of military installations in the province, to discuss with them the possibility that they have more space between smaller convoy units on the highways, especially as encoun­ tered on Highway 1, and that when those convoys are moving along at a slow rate of speed or right at the maximum traffic speed limit, they will indeed move over onto the shoulder? There have been a number of instances where they're blocking traffic by not moving onto the shoulders. MR. M. MOORE: Again, Mr.

Speaker, the Highway Traffic Act provides that there must be a minimum distance between vehicles travelling one behind the other, such as in a convoy. It is in fact illegal for them to travel at a distance so close together that it doesn't allow other motorists some opportunity to pass. However, I will take the representations made by the hon. member into consideration. Perhaps there are motorists, including those who might be involved in either trailer or mil­ itary convoys, who are not fully aware of the requirements of the Highway Traffic Act in terms of driving practices. DR.

CARTER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I under­ stand that some of the secondary highways, such as Highway 560 going east from Calgary, have had the speed limits increased from 80 kilometres per hour to 100 kilometres per hour. Would the minister give consideration to increasing the posted speed on the new, twinned sections of Highway 1 from 100 to 110 kph? MR. M. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, generally speaking the situ­ ation is that secondary highways in this province have a posted speed limit of 80 kilometres per hour when they have a gravelled surface.

In cases where we have been able to base course and pave the surface of secondary highways, there are adequate shoulders on those highways, and the design and engineering standard is adequate with respect to curvature and so on, on a selective basis we've been increasing the speed limits from 80 to 100 kilometres per hour for daytime and nighttime travel.

On primary highways in Alberta which are twinned — the highway between Edmonton and Calgary and parts of highways 1 and 16 — we have a 110 kilometre per hour speed limit on areas that we refer to as limited access, where there are grade separations separating the highways and roadways that intersect with the four-lane highways at regular intervals. An example of that would be between the area of about Leduc to Red Deer, where we have very limited access and the speed limit is 110 kilometres per hour. The balance of Highway 2 between, say, Red Deer and Calgary is generally limited to a lower speed limit.

We have not yet completed the removal of access points and the grade separations that, in our view, are required to have that kind of speed limit. The major problem with respect to higher speed limits on highways which have a lot of access is traffic moving across four lanes and having to do that from a standing start. The problem there is most noticeable with trucks. It's just impos­ sible to accommodate that kind of movement and avoid acci­ dents when the speed limit is up to 110 kilometres per hour.

As soon as we're able to complete the overpasses and limit access points on all the highways we're reconstructing, the speed limits will be raised to 110 kilometres. MR. PAPROSKI: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. My question deals with the addition of passing lanes, which the Minister of Transportation alluded to. In addition to passing lanes, would the minister please mention to the House if indeed he's con­

662 ALBERTA HANSARD May 3, 1984 sidering an alteration in the signage, to advise people on the highway that these passing lanes will be forthcoming 2 or 5 kilometres ahead? MR. M. MOORE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have that under consideration. One of the values of introducing a program for providing passing lanes is to advise motorists in advance that there will be an opportunity to make passing movements a very short distance ahead. From experience in other jurisdictions, my understanding is that those signs should perhaps be placed not more than 2 to 3 kilometres prior to the passing zone.

Placing them any further distance back generally results in the driver becoming impatient with the distance identified and trying to pass at any rate. So we'll be looking at the experience of other jurisdictions and, where we feel it's appropriate to do so, placing signs on our highways indicating the distance to passing lanes. MR. NELSON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to focus the supplementary to the Solicitor General.

Considering the questions that have just been addressed to the Minister of Transportation, would the Solicitor General consider giving instructions to police officers in the field to focus their attention on the area of those slow-moving vehicles, to ensure that they either pull over or are off the road, rather than totally focussing their efforts on the speeding traffic? They are certainly more of a danger to most of us travelling on the highway than some of the people who are going a little faster. DR. REID: Mr. Speaker, that's a very difficult question to answer.

Law enforcement in relation to vehicle traffic is a very difficult part of any law enforcement officer's work. The pri­ mary purpose of law enforcement is to make the highways safe for those who travel. If one relates the accidents to the causes, we are all very well aware that the most frequent cause of major accidents is impaired driving. Approximately half of the acci­ dents involve the use of alcohol to some extent. There are other very hazardous practices on our highways: illegal left turns, illegally going through stop signs, and entering highways with­ out stopping.

The difficulty is that the police officer has to be there and see it in order to enforce it. There is a tendency to concentrate on speeding, in that modern equipment has enabled the police officer to have a fairly open-and-shut case to take to court. In speaking to the People Against Impaired Drivers some two months ago, I indicated that I would quite encourage the law enforcement people to concentrate on the impaired driver, who is the most serious safety risk on our highways.

When one starts concentrating on slow drivers and other people, it really gets to the stage where the law enforcement officers are going to be so busy stopping people that they won't be on the highway very much to see the other offences which I mentioned and which are more dangerous. So it's very largely discretion on the part of the police officer in relation to which drivers he will pick to pull over, speak to, or indeed issue a summons to attend court. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Might we revert to Introduction of Special Guests? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS (reversion) MR.

BATIUK: Mr. Speaker, it's a real pleasure for me to introduce to you, and through you to the members of the Assem­ bly, 24 students from the grade 11 social studies class at Ryley school in the Vegreville constituency. They are accompanied by their teacher Mr. Voegtlin. It's very nice to look young, and I mistook the bus operator for one of the grade 11 students. She is Mrs. Langner. I wish that the students, the teacher, and the bus operator rise and be recognized by the Assembly. head: WRITTEN QUESTIONS MR. HORSMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I move that Question 165 and motions for returns 170 to 173 stand and retain their place on the Order Paper. MR. NOTLEY: Questions. MR. SPEAKER: Those are questions. MR. HORSMAN: I'm sorry; they're all questions. I beg your pardon. MR. SPEAKER: The motion by the hon. Deputy Government House Leader is that the questions on the Order Paper today be put over and retain their place on the Order Paper. Is it agreed? [Motion carried] head: MOTIONS OTHER THAN GOVERNMENT MOTIONS 211. Moved by Mr. Cook:

Be it resolved that the Legislative Assembly encourage the government to commit long-term funds to create a biotechnol­ ogy centre of excellence in Alberta and thereby enhance Alberta's agricultural industry. MR. COOK: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I should begin by defining a little bit of what the motion contemplates in the term "bio­ technology", then go on to discuss why this is important to Alberta in the 1980s, and thirdly, discuss how we might organ­ ize our research activities.

Finally, in the sum-up, I propose to argue that given the present economic climate and the need for diversification of our economy, this is an opportune time to move in this direction. Mr. Speaker, biotechnology has been defined as genetic engineering, cell manipulation and growth of specific types of cells, fermentation technology, and enzyme technology. For a lot of us laypeople, that doesn't mean much. Perhaps I could dig in a little deeper and explain a bit about what each of those headings contemplates.

When many of us were going to school before 1960, sci­ entists and biologists knew that the colour of our hair and eyes and the height and weight we all have are governed by the genetic code, and in particular by a chemical called deoxyri­ bonucleic acid or DNA. This chemical in each of our cells acts as a blueprint, if you like, telling the cell how it's going to form, how it's going to reproduce itself in a particular form so that we have 10 fingers, two hands and two feet, not three — not 11 fingers, not two noses. There is a blueprint in each of

May 3, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 663 us, and it's in each of our cells. It's coded in the stuff of life, DNA. [Mr. Appleby in the Chair] In 1960, Watson and Crick, a group of scientists working in Cambridge, England, discovered how this stuff, DNA, is structured. When they started to define or discover the structure of DNA, they made it possible for us to play around with that blueprint. DNA looks like a spiral helix. It's a series of pol­ ymers, and it's stretched in two bands with joining chemicals. MR. SCHMID: Like a snake eating its tail. MR. COOK: That's true, Mr. Speaker. The hon.

Member for Edmonton Avonmore describes it as a snake eating its tail — very similar. It's two snakes, if you like, in a spiral with connecting links, each of those links being a code for the structure determining your hair colour, your eyes, the number of fingers and toes we all have, and a variety of other things. Once Watson and Crick discovered that — and they received the Nobel prize in 1964 for that research — they made it possible for researchers to discover what's in that coding.

Once you knew how a formula or a blueprint was structured, it was possible to play around with the blueprint, and that's what we are able to do now. In fact we almost have what the ancient Greeks would have thought godlike qualities: we can create life today. Mr. Speaker, basic research at Harvard, in Cambridge, Massachusetts, has led to the development of entirely new organisms that have never existed before. They only exist because man has decided he would like to play around with the structure of a plant or an animal and change that structure in a way more suitable for him.

That process is called genetic engineering. We can take out of that spiral helix I was describ­ ing a specific item, insert something we like from another plant or animal in the exact spot where we want to place that char­ acteristic, and then allow that new cell to develop into an egg or an entirely different animal. We can create something com­ pletely different. Let me give you an example. Mr. Speaker, we could say we wanted to have perennial wheat. Instead of having a cereal grain that is an annual, you might want to have a cereal grain that is a perennial. We don't want to have to till our land so much.

We might want to have soil conservation in this way. We could identify that genetic information in the genetic code of a perennial grain, a perennial cereal crop. We could then go to wheat, oats, barley, or whatever we are working with, and identify where the genetic code says it's going to be an annual. We could remove that coding material and insert the perennial coding material, just like an engineer might rub out on a blueprint, take out something that he likes, and put it into something else. We then have a seed, an organism, that could be a perennial wheat. We can reproduce that.

We can create a new strain of plant and reproduce it. Mr. Speaker, we might like to say that nitrogen fixation is important in Alberta. I mentioned fermentation technology as being part of this whole ball of wax. Let me give you an example of what we could do there. Alberta is just now starting to develop its forestry industry. We could produce nitrogen- fixing bacteria that would be specific to certain soil types in Alberta, and we could sprinkle that on a forestry soil, the forest floor. Those organisms would attach themselves to the roots of the trees and fix nitrogen naturally.

Some biologists believe we could produce 30 percent more wood just by providing a natural fertilizer for those trees. Mr. Speaker, right now enzyme technology, using the side products of organisms that are rapidly reproducing themselves, has produced a whole new industry in the United States. There are a number of industries that are related to this. Members will be familiar with beer. We all enjoy a glass of beer, or most of us do — perhaps the Member for Cardston a little surreptitiously — once in a while. AN HON. MEMBER: Just one glass? MR.

COOK: Just one glass — although I understand that I owe two glasses of scotch to the Minister of Utilities and Tele­ communications for a little wager we had and I lost. I won't go into the details on that any more. Mr. Speaker, enzymes are produced in that reaction. In this case we are producing alcohol. But a number of other things are produced as well. We can produce vitamins and sugars from this.

In the United States, most of the fructose syrups that go into things like beverages, Coca-Cola, are now being pro­ duced not by extracting the sugar from sugar cane, sugar beets, or something like that, but by creating an environment where yeasts and that kind of organism will act on a foodstuff, and the by-product is a sugar syrup that can be extracted. There are all sorts of exciting things we can do in this area. We can look at cloning. Mr. Speaker, we might want a par­ ticularly fine animal to be produced.

Perhaps we've discovered that a cow in a herd has a history of producing twins, and we might want to double our production of calves. Here is a good example again. We could simply take some of the genetic material out of a cell and put it in a medium where that cell will reproduce again and again. That cellular reproduction will go on and yield a calf. We can pick out an animal we want to have duplicated a number of times. We can just pump out as many copies of that animal as we would want. All these things are potentially available to us.

That's why I want to go back and touch on why this motion is before us today. Mr. Speaker, as I was trying to suggest to hon. members in the House, there are some exciting opportunities here. I am a city boy, but agriculture has been one of my interests, as some members in the House know. In fact I have a good garden growing, and I have beans about three inches high. AN HON. MEMBER: Already? MR. COOK: Already. Beans, peas, all sort of things — we're growing them under plastic; they have more heat that way. It's good, old-fashioned technology, an energy conservation approach to agriculture. Mr.

Speaker, new technology can yield dramatic gains in productivity. As I touched on in [my] remarks, some of the gains in technology are probably related to forestry. As I men­ tioned, we could have a naturally fixing source of nitrogen in the soils, and we could boost that. We could use that in agri­ culture. We could produce the same bacteria that would fix nitrogen naturally for cereal grains. We could be producing new, improved strains of livestock, entirely different kinds of livestock. A wild suggestion has been made by some that you might want to have cattle producing wool.

So you would simply extract the genetic code material that produces wool for sheep, and you would shove it into the genetic code material for a [cow]. MR. HYLAND: It'd be a bugger to shear it, though. MR. COOK: The hon. Member for Cypress suggests there might be some shearing problems.

664 ALBERTA HANSARD May 3, 1984 Mr. Speaker, the possibilities in forestry, agriculture, and medicine are incredible. Imagine that someone has a problem with their liver. They don't have more than one. AN HON. MEMBER: Because of one beer? MR. COOK: And it's not from the one beer we consumed earlier. But if you could find a healthy liver cell in an individual, you could extract that cell and grow a new liver for that indi­ vidual. That liver would have the same genetic code as his own body, and there would be no rejection problems. Mr. Speaker, we could produce insulin.

The Connaught labs in Toronto are doing that today. They have extracted from animals and from human beings the cells from a pancreas and grown those rapidly in a cell culture. Then those pancreas cells produce insulin naturally. It's pure and it's easier to produce than it is to extract insulin from the pancreases of cattle in stockyards. All these things are potential. Mr. Speaker, the reason I am trying to propose this motion today is that I understand we only have 195 scientists in Canada working on biotechnology, all of these items I was talking about.

According to the Science Council of Canada, in 1980 we were about three to four years behind all our major com­ petitors in this area. I suspect we are now further behind than that. Canada invests almost nothing in biotechnology compared to our competitors. We are just starting to make some moves. The Research Council here in the province should be com­ mended. Last year or the year before, they started making some efforts in biotechnology. They have devoted some of their resources to that area, but it's miniscule. It's nothing in com­ parison to the challenges and opportunities before us.

Why should Alberta be interested in this kind of activity? Why not the United States, Japan, or Germany? Why Alberta? Mr. Speaker, I think there a couple of reasons why we should be looking at developing this. First of all, we've had a little bit of a setback in our economy. I think we've had a chance to rethink our economic strategy. The Premier announced last year that he proposes to present an economic strategy paper to the Assembly this spring. The problems of the economy right now suggest that we need new industries.

The success of Japan, and in part Germany, has been in the creation of new products, new ideas, and new technologies no one else has. They can then go and market those products without fear of competition, and the buyer has to pay the price. We could be leading the way in some new technologies and new products that are impor­ tant to a world vitally short of resources and vitally short of food. We could sell those technologies worldwide and have a ready market. Mr. Speaker, we have a talented and well-educated popu­ lation.

If there is an area that can develop in this area at all, it should be Alberta and it should be Canada. We have the people. We have only to challenge them; we have only to provide them with the wherewithal, the resources, to make some efforts. We have been bold in this province. We have the example of AOSTRA, which has devoted over $100 million in its life to the development of technologies related to the tar sands, heavy oils, and tertiary recovery of existing oil reserves. We have the Premier's very bold initiative in the Heritage Foundation for Medical Research. We have models to follow.

We know what we're doing; we've done it before. If we were to devote a similar amount of resources to this field of biotechnology, which is going to be able to produce much greater efficiencies in Alberta agriculture, forestry, med­ icine, petrochemicals, and the production of food — all of them base industries or potentially base industries in this province — we'd be creating jobs in areas we already have expertise in. We're not going to be trying something new and foreign to the province.

We're not going to try to impose on the economy or on the people of the province something they don't have skills or familiarity with. We're going to be using existing strengths, existing technology bases, and we're going to be making those more efficient. Mr. Speaker, the University of Calgary, to its credit, pro­ duced a proposal in 1981 calling for the creation of an Alberta biotechnology fund. It was modelled on AOSTRA. It was going to emphasize involvement with the private sector in technology transfer, so we'd be creating new companies producing these products worldwide.

Let me give you the example of a company in the United States, which was formed in 1970. Its name is Cetus. The company has existed a few short years and now spends $100 million annually in sales of its products. I men­ tioned the sugar syrups being produced with yeast; there's another example. We could be producing those kinds of things here in Alberta and marketing them worldwide. Mr. Speaker, the University of Calgary proposal suggested that we need to develop the province in three major areas.

One was providing support so we could get the basic research and development work done in our universities, the Research Coun­ cil, and the private sector. Secondly, the proposal called for technology transfer, so there would be joint ventures with pri­ vate companies, exchanging information, getting the knowl­ edge we produce into the hands of people who can use and develop it and sell products. The third thing was the devel­ opment of a pool of trained people.

I mentioned earlier that in 1980 the estimate was that there were only 195 scientists in Canada who could do anything at all related to this area of activity. We need to develop that pool. It's a chicken and egg argument. How do you do that? Do you wait until you have enough people and then invest the money, or do you make some money available and then develop the personnel? The experience of the medical research foun­ dation has been that if we provide some resources, we can develop a very skilled pool of scientists and technicians. That is what the 1981 proposal from the University of Calgary called for.

It called for a foundation modelled on AOSTRA. That foundation would do basic research in cell biology and genetic engineering — we discussed that earlier — the ability to extract coding material from one cell and inject it into the genetic material of another; biochemistry, the understanding of how a cell is organized and how the chemicals it feeds on are trans­ ferred; and microbiology, the basic understanding of how a cell works. Mr. Speaker, it suggested that we need to boost our capa­ bilities in our research centres, in the universities, and in the private sector.

The Minister of Economic Development, to his credit, has made some major initiatives in the venture capital company we have created. The prospects are there: if we create new ideas and technologies and polish them up, we now have venture capital available to take those ideas and market the products. We can create new industries, new technologies here in Alberta, and create the corporate structure to go and sell to the world. That's what the Minister of International Trade has been doing so successfully.

The point I'm trying to make is that we're now doing a lot of the things that are so central to the success of this kind of program. They're not foreign to us. We already have skill and expertise in this. Mr. Speaker, I want to sum up. We have the model of AOSTRA, we have the model of the research foundation, and we know we can be bold. We know it's forefront technology that's going to have big dividends. I want to quote from The Atlantic Monthly, January 1984. There's an

article in that mag­ azine by Stephen Budiansky, and it's called Trouble Amid

May 3, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 665 Plenty. It discusses the United States' agricultural research program and notes that they spend many hundreds of millions of dollars each year on research. It's related to a kind of research much like our Farming for the Future. It's short-term, and short- term focussed. It concentrates on increasing productivity by sprinkling fertilizer in a little more efficient way. I'm being a little bit simplistic. But we're not going to get very many major gains out of those marginal increases in efficiency.

The major breakthroughs for agriculture, the major breakthrough in effi­ ciency for our farmers in Alberta, is not going to come from learning how to sprinkle fertilizer a little more efficiently; it's going to come from genetic engineering. If our farmers are interested in becoming more efficient and having a higher income and having new products to sell that are in high demand in the world, that research has to be done, not by things like Farming for the Future but by strengthening research and development in basic sciences, in the biological sciences, and in biotechnology.

We're not doing it enough in this province. We are making some initiatives in the Research Council, and I think the Research Council should be com­ mended for that, but it's a very modest step. Mr. Speaker, agriculture has enormous potential to gain from this technology. Forestry has major opportunities. Med­ icine has major opportunities. Our petrochemical feedstocks and the industries have major opportunities with this kind of technology.

It's timely for Alberta, in its new economic strategy that is being brought before the Assembly this year, to consider this kind of foundation, this kind of activity, so we are on the cutting edge, so we're not following everybody else and won­ dering why Canada and Alberta are waiting for our competitors to beat us. Japan, Germany, the United States, and western Europe are all making dramatic moves in this area, and Canada is notable by its lack of initiative. Alberta is notable in Canada for its ability to be bold in some areas. If the leadership is going to come anywhere, it's going to be in this province.

What's called for is some imag­ ination and a little bit of spine, I suppose, to take $100 million or so and put it aside and get on with the job. If we do that, I think Albertans will have a very exciting future. I want to close on that, Mr. Speaker. I'm looking forward to the debate. I think other hon. members have interesting points to make as well. MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to compliment the Member for Edmonton Glengarry for bringing this motion forward today. We have hundreds of universities and schools in North America, and there is a lot of pure research done in those schools.

He mentioned the discovery of DNA, but there are many more. Basically what we have is an explosion of knowledge, and it's accelerating. Where we lag is in applying this knowledge in practical ways. Here in Canada, here in North America, here in the world, we have an opportunity to support myriad types of applied research. That was done years ago in the microchip industry, and pretty well taken over by Silicon Valley in California and by the Japanese. They've exploited it very well.

But there are many other areas, and this happens to be one of them, where there's a real chance for somebody to jump in at the outset. This is one of the reasons that most anytime a motion comes forward on research and development, I am ready to support it. I basically like to support the concept of getting in and researching some of this pure science that has been developed and applying it in a practical and economic way. I think this is a good example. It's not the only one, but it's a good example of what we can do in Alberta. We are doing something.

We've got our medical research centre over there, and I think that's wise. Maybe it will take years to pay off, Mr. Speaker, but as sure as I'm standing in my place, some real benefits will eventually come from that medical research centre, not only to the people of Alberta but to people all over. The member was correct in saying that we have a window here today. We all hear that now is the time to spend the money — it doesn't matter whether we're talking about building roads or dams or whatever — because we can get more of a bang for the buck. Basically it's true; we keep hearing it.

This is an area in which it can be done. There are many, many young graduates coming out of graduate school today who really do not have a position. If we pick any one of these projects, now is a good time to do it, because it does take time. There's no doubt about that. When the Legislature is in session, I spend a lot of time across the river. I've been watching that medical centre from the time it was a hole in the ground. It isn't completed now, but it's almost finished, and that's six or seven years. So the physical plant has to be produced.

But besides that, and prob­ ably even more important — I suppose people can work under quite a few different conditions — you have to get personnel. The member was very correct in saying there are very few of these people that have really spent any time — there are very few experts in this field. I'm surprised we have even 195 of them in Canada. About all those people can do is explain to us in layman's terms what's going on in the rest of the world in the research in this field, because most of us cannot even understand exactly what's going on. In fact I can't even say the word that DNA stands for.

So it does take time to organize, and it takes time to get this type of thing off the ground. I don't know, for instance, how you would go about handling it. I suppose that if we're going to put government money into it, we would be looking at the Alberta Research Council. When it comes to pure research, possibly the universities are better able to handle that type of thing. Possibly, applied research has to be done through something like a research council. I think that would possibly be the way to go. It's a possibility.

There may be other options, but I think they should be inves­ tigated to see if there are some other ways to do it. I recall that the only time I had any real contact with this type of thing was two or three years ago. I was down in Oregon at a private company. They were producing apple trees, and they were doing this cloning thing. They were producing apple trees that stood about as high as I could reach. That's high enough, because that's the way they pick the fruit. They were able to get fruit off these trees at least one year quicker than they could with the old style.

These trees grew uniform fruit, they grew a uniform height, and they produced in a uniform way. These people were making money by taking this tree they had developed and shipping it all over the northwestern United States. Hopefully, we can get some of them in the Okanagan valley. This is just one example I saw being done by this type of process. I think if we go this route — we're talking about agricultural research, and I understand that at the Lethbridge research station they are experimenting in a limited way with a nitrogen-fixing type of wheat.

Where we have really gone wrong, to some degree, has been in the fact that we in Canada have not allowed people to patent new strains and varieties of crops. You go across the line — I'm not trying to say they do everything right down there, but you get down in the midwestern United States, where they have hybrid corn and that type of thing, and there are many private companies making good money producing these products. Here in Canada we depend almost entirely on our

666 ALBERTA HANSARD May 3, 1984 research stations. They do a good job; I'm not downgrading them a bit. But there should be some way we can encourage other people to get involved. The only way they're going to do it, of course, is if there's an opportunity to make an economic success of the thing. I really think that Canada as a whole has to take a look in this area to try to find ways to allow people to make it pay off for them if they do the work and the research. The member's [motion] speaks about agriculture. You could spend hours talking about what we could do in the agricultural field.

He also mentioned forestry. Seeing as I know very little about forestry, I can speak for quite a while on it. I think we are seeing a revolution in that area, somewhat comparable to agriculture. Instead of sitting there and chop, chop, chopping these trees, we are starting to look on it as harvesting a crop. I really think that in the next 15 or 20 years, there are going to be real strides made in developing types and strains of trees, just like we have been developing types and strains of grain. I think it is going to pay off for us.

You can get into the exotic area of nitrogen-fixing bacteria and all of that, and I believe that will be a help. But I honestly think we are just on the verge — not only us but the rest of the lumber producing areas of the world — of getting into and developing better and newer and quicker growing strains of lumber. I think that is a real area, at least for Alberta, to take a good, long look at. So that's another area I think could be developed through this biotech­ nology process. Then of course you get into other things like processing industrial and biological waste. There are by-products from that.

I don't think we want to get into methane production — we have enough gas bubble here in Alberta as it is — but there are still many areas there. In the mining industry, for instance, they have produced bacteria that leach different metals out of ore and that type of thing. We're just beginning to see where this thing can pay off. If we set up a centre like this, there's the independent spin-off from it. We can start to attract qualified people, and industries will work away from this centre if we get in on the ground floor. Mr. Speaker, I'd just like to close by saying this.

Japan has used one of these processes, the fermentation process. Last year they were able to produce $15 billion worth of product, which happens to be 5 percent of their gross national product. So they are quite a way ahead of anyone in the world in this area, and I think it's time we took a look at trying to catch up. Thank you for your attention, Mr. Speaker, and I urge all members to support the motion. MR. MUSGREAVE: Mr. Speaker, I'd just like to say a few words on this motion. I think it's rather interesting that there are two resolutions on the Order Paper from the hon.

Member for Edmonton Glengarry, one from the hon. Member for Grande Prairie, one from Ponoka, and two from Calgary Egmont. So I think it's very topical at this time, and I commend the members for raising these various issues. I would like to mention a few things. First of all, I'd like to say that the Alberta Research Council is doing exactly what this motion proposes. I'd like to speak to you today for two reasons.

One, I encourage all of you to read more of the annual reports of our research authorities such as the Alberta Research Council, the Alberta Oil Sands Technology and Research Authority, and Farming for the Future, just to name three. And I urge members to read pages 13 and 14 of the 1983 report of the Alberta Research Council on biotechnology. [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] In 1985 the Alberta Research Council will be moving into new facilities which, when completed and equipped, will cost close to $70 million.

These new facilities, which are located on about 157 acres in southeast Edmonton, are an important first step in our long-range plan for expanded research and development in Alberta. An important part of our long-range plan is the development of a frontier sciences division. In this division we have estab­ lished a biotechnology department headed by Dr. Don Gerson. Dr. Gerson came from the University of Western Ontario at London and joined our council last summer.

He has developed a strategy for biotechnology research that will fit in with our long-range plan and that we hope will benefit Alberta's eco­ nomic development. As the hon. member mentioned, bio­ chemical engineering will be a new area which will extend into plant cell culture. It will lead to the production of sophisticated chemicals for use in agriculture and medicine. To quote Dr. Gerson, "the rest of the world is busily doing this" — as the hon. member mentioned — and "we in Canada and Alberta are very late". But in his opinion, we should not ". . . borrow proprietary knowledge.

It is less costly to develop our own techniques and because of the Frontier Sciences Division's computer expertise . . . which we have in place, . . . we have a big advantage." The three areas of economic activity considered most likely to profit from biotechnology in the near future are pharmaceuticals and specialty chemicals, agriculture, and biotechnology equipment manufacture.

Alberta [has] already established a petrochemical equipment industry [which] could provide processing equipment for the manufacture of genetically engineered chemicals, since the design and the materials are similar, in the opinion of Dr. Gerson. Dr. Gerson says genetic engi­ neering, specifically higher value products in low volumes, would be the basis of a major secondary industry in Alberta: "Throughout the world, people strongly believe genetic engineering will revamp the chemical industry.

It is imper­ ative that we start developing our biotechnology now if we are to reap the benefits of this research in the future." The new department will integrate the activities of four essential components of a biotechnology program and form a "unit process" stretching from genetic engineering to pilot scale production. These components include exist­ ing low temperature microbiology: genetic engineering under our joint venture with BIO LOGICALS Inc. [from eastern Canada]; and two recently initiated projects, plant cell culture and biochemical engineering.

Besides the work being done in our universities, your Alberta Research Council, in my opinion, does have a centre which has the object of becoming a centre of excellence. We have 15 professionals on staff. I was trying to work that out in relation to the population of Canada; it's around 8 percent, so I think we're not doing too badly. And we will soon have our pilot plant functioning in our new Mill Woods facility. Right now, this is what's happening.

The biotechnology industries in the U.S.A. and elsewhere are now beginning to produce products with considerable market potential — for example, hoof and mouth vaccine — and there's beginning to be a sizable sales volume of a product called aspartame. Canada and Alberta are not yet in a position to benefit from these new technologies. The primary aim of the Research Council is to foster and promote biotechnology industries in our province.

As men­ tioned earlier, research activities have been structured to max­ imize possibilities for interaction with the present and future economy of Alberta in the following three areas: pharmaceut­ icals, agriculture, and biotechnology equipment manufacture.

May 3, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 667 Right now, our current program has four main components. Biochemical engineering: we have the pilot scale research proj­ ect I mentioned, pilot scale improvement of beer production processes, improvement of cheese starter culture production, development of enzyme-based microelectronic sensors, and development of large-scale protein purification techniques with the BIO LOGICALS company I mentioned earlier. In the area of molecular genetics, we are doing work again in a joint venture with BIO LOGICALS.

We are developing cloning vectors for two organisms, and we're using these vec­ tors for production of protein health care products by recom­ binant DNA technology. In the area of crop improvement, we are working on improv­ ing the growing of alfalfa through tissue cultures by the selec­ tion for improved low-temperature growth. We are also improving the growing possibilities of alfalfa by selection for improved nitrogen fixation. We are also working on improve­ ment for wheat growing by a double-hybrid technique.

In the area of low-temperature microbiology, we are looking at bacterial lipid enzymology and its relation to life at low temperatures. We are looking at ice-nucleating bacteria and their relation to frost damage. We are also investigating nitro­ gen-fixing bacteria, a strain that will develop the enhancement of alfalfa production in the Alberta environment. I note that there are no members of the opposition in the House, so this is an opportunity to talk to the government members. As I mentioned when I first started, obviously you are all interested in science and technology and what it will do for our province.

Last year I brought a motion to the Heritage Savings Trust Fund [committee] for a $100 million technology foundation, which was to look at the basic sciences in our community, and it was very strongly defeated. So I say to the hon. members here, we have a job to do to convince our Provincial Treasurer and the members of Executive Council that we have to spend substantial sums of money to turn our economy around. This is not the time to be cutting back on research or science and technology in our province. In conclusion, we don't have to be doing what everyone else in Canada is doing.

We hear about CAD/CAM in every province in Canada. We talk about biotechnology today. The province of Ontario is spending hundreds of millions of dollars with Labatt Brewing. You go to British Columbia or Quebec; everybody's saying the same thing. Obviously, we as a nation can't afford it. So we at the Research Council have tried to make our directions along specific endeavours. But we need your support, because we need more money. Thank you. MR. WOO: Mr. Speaker, I note with interest the opening remarks of my colleague from Calgary McKnight.

He cited a number of documents and made the suggestion that perhaps we should peruse them and speak from them. I have in my hand one of those documents. Under normal circumstances I have difficulty enough with the English language. But when I see project titles such as these — The Use of Surface Poly­ saccharide Antigens as a Vaccine in Preventing Diarrhea Caused by Enteropathogenic E.

Coli in Calves, Pigs, and Lambs; and Development of an ELISA for the Seradiagnosis of Porcine Mycoplasma Pneumonia, a project with the bio- technological aspect being the use of recombinant DNA to produce antigen — you can appreciate the fact that I do a lot of silent reading. MR. NELSON: Why don't you read it in Chinese? MR. WOO: You'd never understand it. I would like to rise in support of the hon. member's motion.

I would like to make a number of comments and general obser­ vations from a number of different perspectives with respect to biotechnology within the world community, within the national context, and from a provincial environment point of view, and certainly make a number of comments respecting Alberta's activities in this particular field in relationship to our international partners. From a European standpoint some dozen years ago, that community's hope for the biotech future and that community's role in that future gave considerable cause for optimism.

At that time, between 1967 and 1971, England alone held 30 percent of the world's biotechnological patents. In the Federal Republic of Germany during that same period, the Society for Biological Research, established in 1964 by the Volkswagen foundation, was on a worldwide basis the clearly recognized leader in biotechnological advancement. Given the predictions made in the '60s, I think it is all the more interesting to note a recent report compiled by the Office of Technological Assessment in the United States Congress, the European community commission, and several industry analysts.

These reports, based upon present patterns of research development and commercialization, predict that by the year 2000 the United States and Japan will dominate the $50 billion to $100 billion market for biotech goods and services. I think it is important for us to remember those numbers when we talk about our Canadian activities and our potential to capture our share of that market. I think it is equally important for Canada and Alberta to understand the "whys" of that dramatic shift of dominance from the European community to the United States and Japan. There are a number of reasons.

Firstly, research and devel­ opment expenditures in the European community were inade­ quately expanded. Secondly, lack of regional or state planning, which led to a shotgun approach of grant distributions, meant that at times research duplication was supported to the detriment or loss of some of the strongest biotech capabilities achieved at some considerable initial cost. Thirdly, the lack of co-oper­ ation to facilitate the systematic incorporation by the biotech community of disparate accomplishments by widely dispersed or isolated centres of research. Fourthly, and perhaps most importantly, Mr.

Speaker, the failure to move, or the failure to move aggressively enough, to commercialize or market their products and expertise. As I went over these reasons in my mind and compared them to the Canadian experience, I found some similarities but perhaps with different dimensions. For example, in the first instance, our Canadian research and development expenditures are wholly inadequate for the job we say we intend to do. Secondly, I believe that in a general sense we experience a high degree of co-operation between levels of government and amongst our various research centres.

But I also believe that, to a large degree, research duplication still exists. Thirdly, I am of the view that in a number of biotech areas we continue to pay lip service only. By the time we get it wound up, either the thing we intend to do is already done by someone else, or we have lost our dedicated scientific community who could have done it in the first place. As always in such cases, Mr. Speaker, we have a tendency to perpetuate the Canadian image of always being half an hour late and two bits shy.

Certainly from a general point of view, we have in some cases failed to move to commercialize or market our biotech products and expertise. In some cases we have not moved aggressively enough. But in other select cases, such as genetic engineering and biomedical products, we have moved quite successfully, particularly here in the province of Alberta.

668 ALBERTA HANSARD May 3, 1984 Mr. Speaker, over the years I have seen all sorts of band­ wagons — all sizes and shapes, both domestic and foreign, from soups to nuts, from high tech to better chopsticks — pulled across this country from the Atlantic to the Pacific and back again. We have clambered aboard every one of them, but we have fallen off most of them. Certainly in some cases, with some of the ones we are still on, we should probably get off; and with some of the ones we have fallen off, we probably should have tried to stick on.

The reasons for falling off most of them are many, but it does tell me three things. First of all, as a country or as a province, we can never achieve the status of being experts in everything. I think this is totally unrealistic. Secondly, I believe we must be selective in terms of establishing priorities and choosing to do those things we know we can do well and do competitively. Thirdly, the criteria for that selection should be based upon national, regional, and provincial strengths. Mr.

Speaker, the primary focus of this motion is directed toward biotechnological activities and their relationship to agri­ culture, and in this respect I would like to make a couple of comments from the national perspective. The recently com­ pleted Canada Land Inventory, which took almost 20 years to compile through the joint efforts of the federal and provincial governments, produced some interesting figures.

For the pur­ poses of this inventory, agricultural land in Canada was divided into seven categories and numbered Class 1, 2, 3, and so on, up to Class 7, with Class 1 lands rated the best and Class 7 being rated nonagricultural or nonproductive. Under this system, Dr. Edward Manning, chief of the land use analysis division of Environment Canada, has calculated that only 11 percent of this land has productive potential for any form of agriculture, less than 5 percent is capable of pro­ ducing crops, and less than .5 percent can be considered Class 1 land with no limitations for agriculture. Mr.

Speaker, these figures are all the more significant when you consider that Canada occupies the second largest land area mass in the world today. Dr. Manning's excellent

article on agricultural lands in Canada further confirms many of the arguments put forward during the debate opposing Edmonton's annexation proposal. Almost 84 percent of all Class 1 to Class 3 lands in Canada are located within 50 miles of the 27 major metropolitan areas in the country. Dr. Manning made two other statements which I believe to be relevant to this debate. The first one alluded to the fact that because Canada is one of a handful of food exporting countries, if it ever comes to economic warfare, the strategic value of having food as a weapon is certainly obvious.

I view the state­ ment in light of another one we hear often, that one-third of the world's population goes to sleep hungry every night. I couple this with a definition of biotechnology which refers to the application of scientific and engineering principles, the pro­ cessing of materials by biological agents to provide goods and services, to which I have added the words "to serve mankind''. Mr.

Speaker, the other statement suggests that if Canada's agricultural land is to be preserved, maintained, and used in the most productive manner possible, many more steps in agri­ cultural and scientific research must be taken, along with improvements in farm financing, production, and marketing. In terms of this motion, two things come to my mind. Number one, because of urban encroachment we see a diminishment of our classes 1 to 3 agricultural land base. As I see it, the issue in this instance is, how do we maintain our present levels of agricultural production?

Indeed, how can we increase produc­ tion on a shrinking base in order to maintain economic viability on the part of the farmer or rancher? Secondly, the option to utilize northward lands presents the problems of quality, topography and, to a larger degree, cli­ mate. It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that many of these agri­ culture-related problems could be resolved through advancement of biotechnology in this province. Certainly it would be a case of building on one of the great strengths of this province, the agricultural and ranching industries.

I have a number of other remarks I wish to make but, in view of the hour, I beg leave to adjourn the debate. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Assembly agree? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: It is so ordered. head: PUBLIC BILLS AND ORDERS OTHER THAN GOVERNMENT BILLS AND ORDERS (Second Reading) Bill 202 Teaching Practice Institute Act MR. JONSON: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to be able to move second reading of the Teaching Practice Institute Act.

I think this Act holds the potential for providing better service to stu­ dents, making teachers more comfortable with their career choice and the development of their careers, and would cer­ tainly provide a means for tapping the energy and expertise of teachers already in the teaching force. In addition, I think it addresses many of the needs of school boards today in deliv­ ering education. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to outline the reasons for introducing this Act. First of all, we have the changing nature of careers and planning for careers that exist in our society today.

In the general sense, teaching is no different from many other careers: professional, blue-collar, or some other category. There is a need for the teacher to adjust to the implementation of new programs. Particularly at this point in time, there is a need for teachers to be able to adjust to new teaching assignments, quite often completely out of their previous area of experience. Thirdly, there is always a great deal of change in the field of education. New topics are being assigned to the program, and new technology is being applied.

Certainly there are new meth­ ods of instruction, and there is always room for improvement there. In many of the recent studies being published, in par­ ticular I suppose a report entitled A Nation at Risk, by a com­ mittee in the United States — despite the fact that the study set out to examine program, I note that it came around to the recommendation, the concern, that the major area of improve­ ment should be in teacher education and in the teaching act itself. Mr. Speaker, I feel we need to have a somewhat different look at teacher education.

The new teacher should be looking at a career plan involving continuing education, continuing upgrading and assessment of their own performance and abil­ ities. I like to think the proposal put forward in this Act would provide a vehicle for doing that more effectively. The second reason for introducing the Act is that while there are many good in-service programs for teachers, there are some significant gaps in what is available. At the university level, of course, we have the immediate four-year training program with the integrated practical experience

section or practicum. This needs further support and improvement, but certainly that change in university preparation has been one of the most worth while and significant over the past several years. However,

May 3, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 669 there is no provision for internship and, in some cases, I think this could be well applied. Although I realize that universities are making some moves to offer courses on matters of current concern as well as in the theoretical area, I am afraid that to some degree they have abandoned their traditional area of being very closely connected to the practical application of teachers and providing in-service education in that area.

Professional development days, arranged locally by teachers and school boards, certainly exist, and central office and school- based personnel put a great deal of effort into those. They're certainly worth while, but they're usually limited to one or one- half day at a time and deal with topics in a very introductory way. I've often heard teachers come away from such activities saying: that was fine and good, but we wish we could have had more time on it to really accomplish something. Teacher conventions are well established in the province. These are usually two-day sessions held during midwinter.

They're well established both in organization and program and, from an inspirational point of view, they certainly provide an important service. They deal effectively with challenging the teacher to focus on new trends and developments. However, I note that convention committees continually struggle with addi­ tional demands and expectations, particularly for programs that deal more thoroughly with the implementation of new curric­ ulum and the illustration of new and improved teaching meth­ ods. The committees would admit that the two-day teacher conventions do not come close to addressing those needs.

Recently we've seen considerable development of in-service activities that relate to teaching, being offered by the private sector by various private companies in human relations, man­ agement, discipline, and so forth. Although they are quite expensive compared to what school boards and teachers are used to paying or sacrificing for such service, they are certainly being used.

However, the thrust of this effort from the private sector is still quite clearly toward business and various other areas of work, not particularly toward education, although we should never overlook the fact that many good management and human relations techniques that have been proven in busi­ ness can also be applied in education. The Alberta Teachers' Association operates a major network of specialist councils.

They have certainly been one of the most effective forces in the province over the past several years in providing short-term, in-service education of the one- or two- day conference type, as well as having a major influence on policy development with respect to curriculum in this province. Alberta Education has improved its involvement. Although curriculum changes have slowed down somewhat, a need still exists for attention to introducing new courses and introducing teachers to these courses.

I'd like to acknowledge that the introduction of the new social studies program received an extraordinary effort from the department in terms of educating teachers in its implementation. A special effort was also made with the new language arts curriculum at the junior and senior high school level, although given the thematic approach that was used in presenting that curriculum, they could have had a month and perhaps still not come to grips with it in all cases. However, Alberta Education personnel are in short supply.

They have a large number of other expanding responsibilities, particularly in the area of teacher, program, and school system evaluation. Within the near future, it is not likely that they are going to be able to carry the kinds of in-service activities for implementing a new curriculum which is really needed. When speaking about the services of Alberta Education, I would also like to acknowledge that they do provide help to individual teachers when time permits. The one-day orientation sessions that are held in some zones for new teachers are helpful.

There are certainly other continuing education and in-service activities directed particularly toward teachers. But if we were to go through the complete list, I think we would still see that there are certain gaps in the program that is available. As I see it, the gaps or inadequacies are, for the most part, that all of these in-service activities are very short term — one or two days, half a day.

Quite often the topics are very, very important and, although we can always say the teacher should go home and work on it — I think they do — quite often the topic is beyond what can be introduced in that short period of time. What I'm proposing is that under this institute, it would be possible to arrange one- or two-week courses, which would be much more effective — perhaps two or three months in length, depending on the need. I also think there is a gap in the programs that exist, in that they tend to deal in generalities.

Most of all, they tend to lack an emphasis on improving methodology and the techniques of dealing with young people. I think they tend to be directed more at the broad scheme of things, new trends and develop­ ments, and on subject material. There is also a need for the co-ordination of in-service education for teachers. They are held all over the province on different dates. A great deal of travelling and expense is involved getting to and from them, when you consider the time that's actually spent at them. The third reason I think such

an Act is appropriate is that considerable attention is being paid right now to teacher eval­ uation, along with school program and system evaluation. Mr. Speaker, provided these policies and programs are well organ­ ized and fairly conducted, this is a most important and signif­ icant recent development and initiative from the Department of Education. I note that in a recent news release, the Alberta Teachers' Association has come out in support of the policy announcement. I certainly hope other major groups such as the Alberta School Trustees' Association will do the same. However, Mr.

Speaker, in my view the initiatives being taken in this area, as needed as they are, still leave a very big problem. Once an evaluation is done and problems are identified and recommendations made, there is a serious lack of help both in terms of time and expertise available to help with the needed corrections for the tea cher. I'd just like to mention a couple of examples that I've run across. I know of a situation where you have a young, enthusiastic teacher who knows her subject area and of course has gone through the Bachelor of Education program and the very short practicum process.

Not too far into her teaching career, she is faced with a problem of classroom discipline — one of those challenging classes of grade 8s. She is evaluated by her prin­ cipal and superintendent. They make certain suggestions, but they are busy people as well. The teacher is left to cope with the situation herself. It would seem to me that this type of person has a great deal of potential in teaching, a great deal of enthusiasm for the job, and an appreciation of young people.

If there were a means whereby this individual could be provided with a two- or three-week course in classroom management — and there are such outlines available — the problem might be quickly solved. You would have a very, very good teacher back in the classroom, and the tension, worry, and frustration that teacher would otherwise experience would be eliminated.

Another type of situation we run across is that I've seen a report written to a mathematics teacher — who incidentally was recently given the assignment of Mathematics 30 after having taught math at the junior high school level for a long time — that he should improve his knowledge of conic theory. That is a rather sophisticated

section of the Mathematics 30 program, and it would only be by chance that a person training

670 ALBERTA HANSARD May 3, 1984 to be a mathematics teacher at junior high school would nec­ essarily run across that particular topic. Once again, Mr. Speaker, if there were a site where the teacher could be referred for a short course in that particular area, of what might other­ wise be a generally good knowledge of mathematics, the prob­ lem would be solved. As it exists right now, certainly a principal or a superintendent can identify the problem, but very few of them, even if they had the time, could concentrate on solving that particular problem. A fourth reason for the Act, Mr.

Speaker, is that, as I referred to earlier, there is tremendous change in the materials and technology available in the area of teaching. There are many examples. Perhaps we overemphasize the importance of the use of microcomputers, networking, and various information services. Certainly that is one of the most profound develop­ ments occurring at present. Through certain initiatives of the Department of Education and other groups involved, I think the aspect of teaching whereby teachers are learning to operate the machinery is going quite well.

However, the more important long-term part of this whole process of using computers is that of adapting software, or the programs, to the Alberta scene and learning how to use these in the instruction of students. This is a much more detailed and concentrated activity, and once again I think it needs the source that such a teaching institute would provide. Mr. Speaker, there's a need to improve the link between universities and schools and teachers. I think the universities have the research potential and resources to be a great aid to the teaching force.

The universities would also benefit from the practical, field-tested response of teachers to the merits of their own Bachelor of Education and graduate programs. Many school boards could utilize the services of such an institute in a variety of ways. Superintendents are very busy working with school boards, going to meetings, working on policies, and providing for the leadership and management of school sys­ tems. The best superintendent is probably one who is a gen- eralist, not a person who is an expert in even two or three of the major teaching fields.

I think the flexibility that is offered in the staffing and the providing of services under this institute could be contracted to school boards and would be very effec­ tive for them. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to note that I think that list provides good justification for the introduction and, I would hope, the support of such

an Act. I'd like to go on to comment a bit upon the structure proposed in the Act for the teaching practice insti­ tute. I would like to emphasize that it would not be mandatory or compulsory that it be used, as would be the case with some other proposals existing at the present time. I think the quality of the service should sell itself. I'd like to comment on the governing board proposed for the institute. Mr. Speaker, there is probably nothing magical in the numbers, but I think it's very, very important that active teaching practitioners have a major voice on the board.

They are most likely to appreciate the needs and problems of the teaching force. I think this would ensure that teachers would feel comfortable using the system and feel that the governing body was clearly oriented to their needs. The Act proposes that it be affiliated with the university. As I stated earlier, this is so there would be the possibility of utilizing the library, research, and other resources and expertise of the university, and it would provide a valued link, a closer link, between the perhaps theoretical base of the university and the practical base of the classroom.

There is mention in the Act that financing would be expected and required from Alberta Education. But I also note that there is provision for charging fees and generating income. I hope that school boards and the Alberta Teachers' Association would see this as a valued service and support contracting for its use. Mr. Speaker, the Act is also structured in such a way that there would be a small permanent staff. We would not be building another large institutional hierarchy here. The main staff component would be obtained on secondment and by contract.

We would have the ability under this Act to bring in teachers from many areas but particularly from the schools. I think it would be a way of recognizing the very best teachers that are out there, those who have the most to offer and transfer to their colleagues. Again, rather than seconding teachers on a short-term basis, as is sometimes now done by Alberta Edu­ cation and by universities, this would allow for a semester, an entire year, or perhaps as much as two years of service to the institute, and then they would be able to return to their previous positions.

I think many teachers would welcome this oppor­ tunity. They would gain from it, and certainly their students — if I can use the term — would gain as well. The staffing would be very flexible, and I think that would work well. There would of course have to be a small administrative staff, to provide the ongoing management of the institute. Along with the flexibility that is possible in staffing such an institute would go a great deal of flexibility in the types and number of programs.

The types and number of programs could respond to direct demand and need, and would not have to be geared to maintaining a major, constant budget from year to year. I would just like to conclude my remarks on the Act, Mr. Speaker, by saying that I think a trial with this particular Act in place and an institute being put in place would have a really important impact on the delivery of teaching services in this province. As I see it, what's proposed here would mesh very well with developments that might take place in the Teaching Profession Act.

It would mesh very well with the recently introduced evaluation policy of the Department of Education. It would complement the work the universities are currently doing, and it would certainly provide a very, very worthwhile service to school boards. There is a great deal of change ahead in the field of edu­ cation, Mr. Speaker. There are going to be greater demands on the system. I think that what has the potential to be a very constructive and positive aid to the delivery of education in the province should be supported. Finally, Mr. Speaker, I would like to conclude by noting that in

section 4 of the Act there are a number of services listed that this institute could provide. I see 4(

a) as being the key need at the current time, but I think there are needs and demands for service under all those items. The existence of the institute would not impinge upon anybody's existing authority, but they would hopefully use their authority to use this type of service. I look forward to the comments of additional speakers. MR. SZWENDER: Mr. Speaker, I always look forward to participating in a debate that involves the field and topic of education and the teaching profession. I certainly commend my colleague from Ponoka for bringing Bill 202 forward for debate.

There is a lot of information that I would like to bring forward in participating in this debate, simply because I am not sure as to the absolute merits of Bill 202, the Teaching Practice Institute Act. Before I go into some of my points, Mr. Speaker, I would just like to mention to my colleague from Ponoka that I some­ times wonder whether administrators, present or former, can be classified in the category of teachers, simply because I con­ sider myself the only full-time or practising teacher in the Legislature at this time. I often wonder whether administrators,

May 3, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 671 such as the Member for Ponoka or the Member for Edmonton Gold Bar, really understand what it's like to be in the trenches, where all the important work of educating is accomplished. AN HON. MEMBER: I still teach. MR. SZWENDER: Then I take some of those comments back. Also, I am rather disappointed at the deserted ranks across, Mr.

Speaker, particularly the Member for Edmonton Norwood, who claims to be an educator and is always uttering pious remarks about youth and employment and education for young people and underfinancing, and yet would not be here to par­ ticipate in today's debate. However, I am sure we will do just fine without him. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to begin with some deep philosophy by just saying that we are all getting a little bit older. I include myself in that group. Why am I making that comment? It's been 10 years since I first entered teaching.

If I can just relate an anecdote, I can still remember first walking into the high school where I was employed. At that time I was roughly 24 years of age and didn't have some of the gray hairs my col­ leagues have been pointing out to me. I walked into one of the staff lunchrooms, and I was told that students were not allowed in the staff lunchroom. I smiled and quickly explained who I was, rather to the embarrassment of some of the older members of staff who mistook me for one of the students. I guess that was quite a compliment.

However, what I am trying to point out is that 10 years later I am still employed at the same school. I might add that at that point I was the youngest member on staff. Now, 10 years later, I am still one of the youngest members on staff. The point is that 10 years later, there hasn't been much of a turnover at the particular high school I'm at. Of course there are a number of factors, but certainly the difficulty in obtaining teaching jobs and the current economic conditions make teachers stay rela­ tively long periods of time in the school they are at, without taking too many transfers.

This will definitely have some effect on the quality of edu­ cation, from the perspective that teachers are models for their students, particularly at the high school level where there are many activities — some we won't get into; we are talking about those that are approved — where the teacher cannot often just tell students what to do; he has to actively engage in things like phys ed or numerous types of related field trips. As teachers get older, they may tend to stick more with the curriculum, with the classroom, with the textbooks, and not participate as actively with the students in various activities.

So what I'm saying is that it's unfortunate that those students don't have the benefit of possibly younger members of staff, from whose experience and teaching methods they can benefit. That's not a total criticism. What I'm relating here is that there are certainly a number of merits in the idea brought forward by Bill 202 that can possibly alleviate that. Anyone caught in a job for an extended period of time is bound to stagnate, only to the extent that they become more and more experienced and maybe more and more knowledgeable, and they don't innovate; they don't create new ideas.

They tend to fall back on the things that have worked before. But the world is quickly changing, as was mentioned previously and in fact in the previous motion that was introduced to us. I believe that if a teacher is going to experience difficulties, most of those will emerge in the first or second year of a teacher's career. In most cases it's very difficult for an indi­ vidual who is interested in entering the teaching profession to really determine how suitable they are in those four years during which they take their Bachelor of Education.

The practicum in which teachers engage is for a relatively short period of time. Certainly there is a lot of merit to introducing an internship program, possibly a fifth year in which the whole year would be devoted strictly to a sort of student teaching format. Teachers could then determine whether they are really cut out for teaching or not. Many teachers turn out to be excellent teachers as long as they get over that initial period of adjustment in facing their students and all the related problems that go with it.

Certainly an institute could provide immediate assistance before the teacher runs into further problems and maybe loses a lot of that confidence which then becomes very difficult to regain. I remember my own student teaching experiences quite well, even though it has been a number of years, and I always found they were quite inadequate. At the time I was attending univer­ sity, student teaching was done in the third year of the Bachelor of Education program. I think we received three weeks in the first half of the year and three weeks in the second half, really a total of six weeks out of four years.

Somehow that didn't really prepare me adequately, and I think I had to do a number of things on my own, such as going to the various schools and volunteering my time with teachers as a teacher aide and coach­ ing sports, just to get a better feel for what I would experience once I assumed the full role of a teacher. At that time we also had a more or less pseudo internship program, whereby a teacher who had been hired by a board was then placed in a particular school. University would end in April, so that allowed that teacher to intern at a school for May and June, before the regular grade schools were out.

It did give them some form of internship for those two months, prior to assuming a full-time responsibility for September. That program has also been eliminated for a number of years now, and I think even that little bit would certainly have been useful in the long run. Mr. Speaker, in my 10 years of teaching, I have to say that the number of times I was personally evaluated has been very minimal. I was evaluated once by my principal, the adminis­ trator, in my first year of teaching. I was then observed and evaluated in my second year by the area superintendent, in order to receive my permanent certificate.

Since that time, no one has entered my classroom in order to give me any form of evaluation. Some may observe that as being favourable. Once you're qualified and certified, maybe you don't need other people looking at what you're doing. I think some teachers inevitably form a type of bunker mentality, where once they close the door to their classroom, they feel they are really not accountable to too many people, except maybe their students. That becomes a difficulty. A person would not want to be evaluated strictly to be criticized in terms of possible incom­ petence.

The way the evaluations are set up now, it's very difficult to pinpoint whether teachers are doing their jobs ade­ quately or not. If they know someone is going to be entering their classroom and the time and date is indicated, that teacher is able to prepare. Suddenly, maybe for the first time in months or years, they've got an excellent lesson plan and an excellent lesson, and they appear to be doing their job adequately. I think it's important that teachers as professionals evaluate each other simply to create new ideas — constructive criticism.

What works for someone else may work in another person's classroom. But with those walls and those doors closed, it becomes increasingly difficult. With an institute, maybe the teacher would have far more opportunity to get out of the classroom, to get out of the school, to enter an institute of teaching practice where those ideas could be exchanged more readily, instruction could be given, problems and concerns could be more openly discussed. As such, those teachers would benefit from such an environment.

672 ALBERTA HANSARD May 3, 1984 Certainly there are some provisions. In fact some of my colleagues have mentioned that teachers have very lenient pro­ visions for professional development or in-service days. Com­ pared to some other professionals, I guess that may be so, but you've got to understand that teaching is really quite unique in its nature. There is a lot of stress involved, as much as many people think that teaching is not as difficult a profession as they like to see from the outside. Mr. Speaker, the problem with teaching is that everybody is an expert.

Everybody has gone to school at one time or another, to one extent or another. You see that when you have interviews with parents. They all come down to the school and tell you how you should be doing things. They went to school and finished grade 8, and there's absolutely no reason why you can't do so