2006 Legislative Session: Second Session, 38th Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes

only.

The printed version remains the official version.

Official Report of

DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(Hansard)

THURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2006

Afternoon Sitting

Volume 7, Number 7

CONTENTS

Routine Proceedings

Page

Introductions by Members

Statements (Standing Order 25 B )

School bullying

D. Thorne

Skilled labour recruitment and training

D. Hayer

Hammond Cedar mill

M. Sather

Ethel Tibbits Awards

J. Yap

World Kidney Day

D. Cubberley

Safety in agriculture industry

V. Roddick

Oral Questions

Availability of beds in Interior Health

Authority facilities

N. Macdonald

Hon. G. Abbott

K. Conroy

D. Cubberley

Performance bonuses to Partnerships

B.C. president Larry Blain

J. Kwan

Hon. C. Taylor

G. Gentner

Snowmobiling activities of Agriculture

Minister and role with species at risk

S. Simpson

Hon. P. Bell

Forests Minister consultation

on forest issues

S. Fraser

Hon. R.

Coleman

Government computer system security

H. Lali

Hon. M. de

Jong

Second Reading of Bills

Public Agency Accommodation Act (Bill

Hon. M. de

Jong

H. Lali

Agriculture and Lands Statutes

Amendment Act, 2006 (Bill 4)

Hon. P. Bell

B. Ralston

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Small Business

and Revenue and Minister Responsible for Regulatory Reform (continued)

M. Karagianis

Hon. R. Thorpe

Second Reading of Bills

Supply Act (No. 1), 2006 (Bill 7)

Hon. C. Taylor

J. Kwan

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Finance

(continued)

J. Horgan

Hon. C. Taylor

J. Kwan

[ Page 2923 ]

THURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2006

The House met at 2:03 p.m.

Introductions by Members

Hon. L. Reid: We wish to welcome Mr. Dusig Kim to the Ministry of Children and Family Development. Mr. Kim was selected by the Republic of Korea to receive a fellowship for overseas studies. Mr. Kim chose to come to British Columbia, to the Ministry of Children and Family Development, as he wishes to learn more about our services to children and their families. We are very pleased to have the opportunity to provide a learning opportunity for Mr. Kim and anticipate that we will learn much from him as well. Please join me in welcoming Mr. Dusig Kim to British Columbia.

D. Cubberley: In the precincts today, if not here in the legislative gallery with us, is Shelly Johnson, who is an instructor in the school of social work at the University of Victoria. Shelly is here today with 21 third-year social work students from the anti-oppressive social work class, learning about the operation of the Legislature. Next year these young people will be practising social workers in many of our B.C. communities. Their practice mission will be to act on social justice issues through community change initiatives and anti-oppressive social work. Would the members please join me in making them welcome.

[1405]

R. Lee: In the gallery today we have a group of 30 grade six and grade seven students from Westridge Elementary School in Burnaby North. Accompanying them are some of their parents and two teachers, Jeanette Pitchard and

Vic Austin. Would the House please join me to give them the warmest welcome.

L. Krog: In the gallery today, visiting us from Nanoose, are friends of mine, Ian and Lynne Bryce and their two children, Kingsley and Alistair. I must tell the House that Kingsley was named for his late great-grandfather, a veteran of the first war and one of Parksville's most distinguished citizens.

Hon. C. Taylor: As I have said many times before, British Columbians are fortunate to be served by the very talented men and women in the Ministry of Finance. I want to take this opportunity to introduce a very special member of our Finance team, Michelle Allen.

Michelle is an analyst whose time is shared between estimates and the economic analyst sections of the Treasury Board staff. Now, that's a significant set of responsibilities, but there is much more to Michelle than that. She also happens to enjoy curling, and it turns out that she is extremely good at curling. Michelle is a member of the Kelly Scott curling rink.

Last weekend at the Scott Tournament of Hearts, Michelle and her teammates thrilled B.C.'s curling fans by dominating the round robin and capturing the Canadian women's curling championship. That win also means they will now represent Canada at the world curling championships to be held a little over a week from now in Grande Prairie.

How do you do three budgets in a year and still find time to prepare for a world-class sporting competition? I'm told it takes good time management, lots of personal discipline, practice, physical workouts and a very supportive spouse. It also takes the support of her colleagues, so it's no surprise that everyone in our ministry is very proud and supportive of Michelle. Please join me in expressing our congratulations to Michelle, Kelly Scott and the other members of the team.

K. Conroy: It gives me great pleasure today to introduce to the House Mr. Bill Gorkoff, who is the president of the Kootenay Columbia Teachers' Union back in the Kootenays. In his other life, he's a math and science teacher at Stanley Humphries, which is where I graduated from. He's in his 36th year of teaching, and he says it's his final year. I think it's really sad for the kids in that area because he's a fantastic teacher, and I know he will be missed. Would you please help me in welcoming Bill to the House.

Hon. R. Thorpe: Today in the House is Mike Reed. Mike is my constituency assistant and has been with me for ten years. Would the House please make him very welcome.

M. Farnworth: In the gallery today is a good friend of mine and a teacher from Port Coquitlam. He's a great British Columbian and a great Canadian, so would the House please make welcome Charley King.

G. Hogg: We have many of the constituency assistants from this side of the House joining us today. As both sides of the House know, our constituency assistants consistently provide us with the assistance and support that we need. We value them greatly. They work so hard to make us look good. For some of us, that becomes quite a challenge, but they seem to always be up to that challenge. Would both sides of the House please make our constituency assistants most welcome here today.

C. Trevena: With us in the House today is Francis Carlic of the Tahltan First Nation. Francis is an elementary school teacher at Britannia Elementary in Vancouver, just off Commercial Drive. She works as a first nations resource teacher with students from kindergarten to grade seven and has taught for 14 years. She also serves on the aboriginal committee for Vancouver elementary school teachers and sits on the first nations advisory committee for the Vancouver school board. Would the House please make her welcome.

[1410]

Hon. G. Abbott: As you know, this week is Pharmacist Awareness Week, and today we have represen-

[ Page 2924 ]

tatives from the B.C. Pharmacy Association joining us in the gallery. They are Marnie Mitchell, who is the executive director; Derek Desrosiers; Susan Ogilvie. Also joining them are three pharmacists from Victoria: Alan Hicke, Larry Thorne and Naz Rayani.

Pharmacists are key players in a patient's primary care. Recently we were recently able to partner with them to distribute the new, expanded version of the B.C. HealthGuide . I'm gratified and proud to tell the House today that they have now recently distributed one-half million copies of that new, expanded health guide to British Columbians — quite an achievement.

Pharmacists are now also available after hours to answer questions on medications through our B.C. NurseLine. This is a new service and has already helped hundreds of British Columbians.

I would ask that all members of the House join me in recognizing the great work that is done for all British Columbians by the B.C. Pharmacy Association.

H. Lali: Visiting us in the galleries today is a friend and a teacher. He is also the husband of a former constituency assistant of mine, and he is also an avid member of the musical band in Merritt called the Dung Beetles. Would the House please make my good friend Rickson Ferguson welcome.

R. Fleming: In the gallery with us today is a leader in our community of Greater Victoria in the field of education — a good friend of mine, Charley Beresford, who is a trustee with school district 61. Would the House please make her feel welcome.

Hon. I. Chong: I would like to further add to the welcome and introduction of Saanich pharmacist Naz Rayani, who is visiting today. Mr. Rayani operates the Peoples Pharmacy in Cadboro Bay Village and is one of 56 people who recently have been named recipients of the prestigious award, the Order of Canada. He will be receiving that award later this fall.

His appointment to the order recognizes a body of volunteer work and community involvement that began almost as soon as he came to Victoria in 1978. He has tireless efforts in local fundraising efforts and has been building bridges across faiths. Among his most prominent volunteer efforts over the years have been the annual Partnership Walk, which raises money for the Aga Khan Foundation; the Muslim book fund at the University of Victoria; and various multifaith causes aimed at building bridges between those with different belief systems.

I hope the House would offer him another very warm welcome.

D. Thorne: It is my pleasure today to introduce one of my constituents in the House. Her name is Lorna Steuer. Lorna and I have worked together in the tri-city Coquitlam area at the women's centre and on women's issues for almost 30 years. We've become very good friends, and it's an absolute pleasure to have her here. I don't want to make any mistakes today at all.

Please join me in welcoming her to the House.

C. Evans: There are three wonderful people from Nelson here today. Of course, being from Nelson, they had the good sense to sit on that side so they could look this way. That would be Francine and Michael Chapman, and just down the row there, Helen Sebelius. In order that I make no mistakes while they're watching, I may say nothing at all.

Will the House please make them welcome.

Mr. Speaker: Hon. members, today we have two Legislative Assembly employees with us in the members' gallery. Tony Dambrauskas, the director of Hansard Services for the past six years, will be retiring this year after 35 years in the public service. Under Tony's leadership, Hansard Services has continued to take advantage of emerging technologies in broadcasting and publishing, including digital audio and webcasting of debates; the broadcasting of Committee A from the Douglas Fir Room; and most recently, the podcasting of question period.

Please join me in wishing Tony many, many happy years ahead and thanking him for the loyalty and dedication in serving members and staff of this Legislative Assembly.

[1415]

Also, with Tony, Jo-Anne Kern recently joined us as the new director of Hansard Services. Jo-Anne is a former employee of the Legislative Assembly of B.C. who, during her many years with Hansard Services, held a number of positions including editor, manager of administration and deputy chief. Jo-Anne is well known to many of us in the precincts, and I trust that you will take the opportunity to make her welcome in the days ahead. Welcome.

For those who weren't introduced, welcome. I'm sure most everyone was. So welcome.

Statements

(Standing Order 25

B) SCHOOL BULLYING

D. Thorne: I rise in the House today to mark the anniversary of a very sad event, but one that I think it's important for all of us here to remember. On March 11, 2000, a 14-year-old boy named Hamed Nastoh committed suicide by jumping off the Pattullo Bridge. All suicides are tragic, but this one was no exception.

Hamed's decision to take his own life was tragic because it was so unnecessary. Hamed, you see, was a victim of school bullying, and it was this harassment which eventually prompted him to end his life. We know this because Hamed left a long letter describing the effect that the abuse had on him.

"Every day," he wrote, "I was teased and teased." For example, his schoolmates harassed Hamed for being smart and called him names like "geek." He wrote: "I always acted like it didn't bother me, and I'd smile when I came home, but I was crying inside." Despite his own pain, Hamed wanted to reach out to others. In

[ Page 2925 ]

his last letter he wrote that he hoped that people would realize how devastating such name-calling can be and that they would stop doing it.

Hamed's mother Nasima Nastoh, who lives in Coquitlam, has honoured his last wish by becoming an anti-bullying advocate. I wish to commend her years of work on this cause today. In fact, this Saturday Nasima will be speaking at an event called Stand Up for Solutions. It's a chance for any concerned member of the public to learn how they can help stop school bullying. This event is being held in Surrey and includes our MLA Harry Bains.

It is the responsibility of each one of us to speak out against bullying when we see it. I hope all in the House will join me now in honouring Hamed Nastoh's memory and in paying tribute to the work his mother has done to end this kind of harassment.

SKILLED LABOUR

RECRUITMENT AND TRAINING

D. Hayer: Success has its challenges, and in this province we have a challenge that is very welcome: too many jobs and not enough people to fill them. That is the benefit of our successful, strong economy.

B.C. now leads the country. Construction is booming. Companies are opening. Business and industry are moving here, and that means more and more jobs. Over the next 12 years it is estimated that there will be one million new jobs opening — a job for every student graduating from high school plus 350,000 more jobs.

No matter what we do, we can't fill all those jobs. We have to look elsewhere for skilled labour. We have to ensure that there are tools in place so people can utilize their skills and talents.

We are investing $400 million to increase training and help people connect with opportunities. Through B.C. Skills Connect we are helping 30,000 new immigrants every year to get established here. And to assist the many professionally trained new Canadians who are drastically underemployed — for example, doctors, teachers, nurses, engineers — we are working with the federal government and the professional regulating bodies to reduce the time it takes for accreditation.

We are not only encouraging immigrants. We are providing resources to address our skills shortage so everyone can benefit from the contributions to our long-term economic success.

[1420]

HAMMOND CEDAR MILL

M. Sather: The Interfor mill located in the Hammond district of Maple Ridge has been an integral part of our community since 1910. Since its beginning Hammond mill has been a pioneer in its field. It was the first mill in Canada to employ women, who were primarily hired to grade and load lumber. The young women performed their tasks so well that the practice of hiring women spread quickly to other mills in Canada. During the early 1920s, Hammond Cedar became the largest producer of cedar lumber and shakes in the British Empire. Drawing on a timber supply as close as Pitt Lake or as distant as Knight Inlet, the mill continued to grow as the years went by.

Today it is the largest red-cedar mill in the world. Each year the Hammond mill produces 125 million board feet of cedar products used for exterior siding, panelling, decking and a variety of uses in overseas markets. The mill adheres to environmental regulations determined by the federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans. Seventy percent of their logs come from Interfor harvesting.

Hammond mill currently employs 270 workers, the majority of whom live in Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows. I recently had the pleasure of meeting with Jack Draper, vice president, and Doug Clitheroe, general manager at the Interfor mill. The mill, along with the rest of B.C.'s coastal industry, is facing some of its toughest challenges to date: debilitating duties imposed by the U.S. government, a high Canadian dollar, increased freight rates and high fuel surcharges. This has resulted in the mill having to employ cost-cutting strategies.

I am proud to speak to you today about the impact that the Hammond mill has on my community and around the world. I hope that the mill can continue to be a pioneer in its field and get a chance to celebrate its 100th anniversary in 2010.

ETHEL TIBBITS AWARDS

J. Yap: This being International Women's Week, I rise to talk about the 13th annual Ethel Tibbits Awards held on Tuesday in Richmond. Named after the social crusader and former owner of the Richmond Review , these awards recognize local women for outstanding contributions and achievements in the arts, business, sports, youth and community.

The ceremony is held as a luncheon, and this year's event was once again well attended. The keynote speaker was Ms. Andrea Shaw, vice president of sponsorship sales and marketing for VANOC, and $10,000 of the proceeds from this event is donated to Nova House, a safe refuge for women and children.

Ethel Tibbits was a pioneering newspaperwoman who started her career as a Vancouver Province reporter in the 1920s before moving to Richmond, where she married husband Orland Delos Tibbits in 1926. In 1932 she began working at a fledgling newspaper, the Richmond Review . Within a year she purchased it. Together, Orland and Ethel ran the paper out of their store called Blundell Grocery. Orland was circulation manager, and Ethel was editor of the Richmond Review .

Ethel was known to be a force to be reckoned with. Week after week she explored the daunting issues of

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the Depression era, writing intelligent and hard-hitting editorials. She was tough, insightful and strong in her opinions. For example, in 1933 she predicted England would join the rising conflict in Europe. In 1942, in a series of editorials, she openly criticized the government's plans to intern Japanese Canadians. She was ahead of her times and became a legend in Richmond.

Today we honour her memory with these awards, which this week were given to the following five distinguished women: Janice Froese for the arts, Barbara Bell for business, Penny Talbot for sports, Kathleen Hodges for youth and Barbara Tuck for community. I ask everyone to join me in congratulating them on their well-deserved awards. I'm sure Ethel Tibbits would be proud of them and of how her legacy of achievement lives on.

WORLD KIDNEY DAY

D. Cubberley: Today is World Kidney Day, the first-ever global event designed to draw attention to the rising incidence of kidney disease and the importance of early detection and prevention. In Canada alone, two million Canadians either have chronic kidney disease or are at serious risk of developing it. While interventions like dialysis and transplantation offer hope to suffering individuals, they come at a tremendous cost to the health care system and they involve high risks for patients. World Kidney Day focuses attention on the need for screening of populations at risk and on the value of prevention efforts in slowing the progression towards end-stage renal disease.

[1425]

People with diabetes or hypertension comprise two significant at-risk populations, and as we know, type 2 diabetes is rising rapidly in British Columbia and across Canada in lockstep with the rise in obesity. It's important not only to map the scope of chronic disease problems but to redouble our efforts to intervene.

Today is the perfect time to applaud one such effort, a collaboration between the Vancouver Island Health Authority and LEO Pharma — an independent, not-for-profit foundation — to create a toolkit comprising two educational DVDs and a patient care handbook. These materials embody the concept that early diagnosis and treatment offer patients a chance to live well by slowing or even reversing the progress of the disease. Released during National Kidney Month, these new tools have already migrated to Australia, the United States and the U.K.

We have reason to be alarmed by kidney disease. In the past year, newly diagnosed cases in British Columbia rose by 21 percent. World Kidney Day is a time to reflect on the challenge this poses and to renew our engagement with population health interventions that can reverse the trend.

SAFETY IN AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY

V. Roddick: The fertile lands of British Columbia, as you all well know by now, produce the best food in the world. We are proud of this indispensable industry, but we must always be conscious that our farms and ranches are workplaces that demand attention to safety. On average, 115 people are killed and another 1,500 are seriously injured across Canada in farm-related incidents each year. Farms and ranches will never be totally hazard-free, but steps can be taken to reduce risks.

That's why Farm Safety is My Business is the theme of the Canadian Agricultural Safety Week, March 8 to 14. This campaign has also been proclaimed by our province. Reducing hazards not only makes the work site safer, it shows employees that farm owners and managers are willing and ready to improve their safety by making it an everyday priority. It also allows employees to improve their knowledge and skills in performing assigned tasks efficiently and safely, accompanied by a large dose of common sense.

To our valued agricultural workers, farmers and ranchers, I say SAFER: see, assess, fix, evaluate risk.

I would like all members to join me in wishing workers well during Agricultural Safety Week. Hey, let's make every week Agricultural Safety Week in British Columbia. We all have to eat to live.

Oral Questions

AVAILABILITY OF BEDS IN

INTERIOR HEALTH AUTHORITY FACILITIES

N. Macdonald: Yesterday it was revealed that Kelowna General Hospital was operating under code purple. For the information of those in the gallery, code purple means that there are no beds available anywhere in the hospital. There are no beds in the emergency room. There are no beds in intensive care. There are no beds in acute care.

Will the Minister of Health admit today that government cuts to acute and residential care beds have left regional hospitals with a severe bed shortage?

Hon. G. Abbott: I thank the member for his important question. There are periodic spikes in demand at emergency rooms in hospitals, particularly hospitals like Kelowna which serve a very large retired population.

[1430]

In response to that, Interior Health has done a number of things which I think are entirely appropriate. They have expanded the ER, with support from the province. They have recently added 115 new assisted living units in the community of Kelowna. They've added — or will be adding April 1 — 22 new residential care beds on the fifth floor of Kelowna General Hospital, and certainly that will be helpful. There are

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280 more residential care beds that will be built in the central Okanagan over the next two years. All of these steps are entirely appropriate.

We are going to be making the capital investment in Kelowna that's long overdue. I think what we're seeing in Kelowna is, again, part of that broad demographic wave that is going to be very challenging for the health care system in the future, in this province and around the world.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

N. Macdonald: This is not strictly demographics. It is predictable from the beds that were closed. There were beds closed in Vernon, Penticton, Oliver, Osoyoos, Summerland, Princeton and Kelowna. Dr. Ertel, who is an emergency room doctor in Kelowna General Hospital, said: "I have been here now for ten years, and I've never seen it as bad as it's been the last six to eight months."

The last six to eight months is this minister's watch. The problem is this government's creation. When will the government face up to its mistakes and get to work on finding a solution?

Hon. G. Abbott: I'll take the member and members of the opposition for a little walk down memory lane here in respect of the challenges.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members. Members on both sides, the Minister of Health has the floor.

Hon. G. Abbott: This is an

article from the Vancouver Province , February 16, 1999, entitled "Kelowna Staggers as Priddy Antes Up." Penny Priddy, of course, was the NDP Minister of Health in 1999. According to this

article in the Province : "It has B.C.'s longest list of patients waiting for operations, yet surgeons at Kelowna General Hospital did 1,300 fewer procedures than the budget allowed. Almost 4,000 people are waiting for surgery at Kelowna General. According to the chief executive officer for the region: 'We're under tremendous pressure to get the overflow through, but we are already 42 patients over capacity at Kelowna General.'"

K. Conroy: We are talking about now. We are talking about what's happening this week in Kelowna, and we are not talking about high-level rhetoric from the minister. This is a real…

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

K. Conroy: …person we are talking about. In fact, it's a person from my constituency that this has happened to. As she is being wheeled into an operating room for brain tumour surgery, her surgery is cancelled. Why? Because, her family is told, there are no beds available for her after the surgery. When is this minister going to admit that they have cut too many beds and take responsibility for the lack of beds in the Interior Health Authority?

Hon. G. Abbott: I appreciate the member bringing forward this issue. It would be useful if the member could provide me with the name of the patient and the facility to which she's referring. It's difficult, I think, to comment without that information. Anytime I hear about cancellation of surgeries, I am concerned. Again, I'd like to see more information from the member, and I'm glad to follow up on it.

We don't like to see cancellations of surgeries. Sometimes they occur, particularly in flu season when there's a spike in demand, but typically the hospitals try to reschedule those surgeries just as quickly as they can so that the patients get the optimal outcomes that they deserve.

Mr. Speaker: Member for West Kootenay–Boundary has a supplemental.

K. Conroy: It's a real concern to me and members on this side of the House that every time there's a crisis in health care, we have to bring the individual situations to the minister to get it solved. That incident was reported in the news.

[1435]

Let's talk about the other people who were cancelled so that we can assure the minister that this is, once again, not an isolated incident. There was an 80-year-old woman that day who was prepped for surgery and was told her surgery had to be cancelled because there was no bed to place her in after the procedure. It was a gallbladder removal. She'd been waiting for two years for the surgery. Another patient had been waiting for two years for knee replacements. He has been cancelled twice and was again cancelled. Another patient went all the way to Kelowna for his surgery — these all are in Kelowna General Hospital — and he had to take the bus back home to Merritt when they were cancelled.

All this time the surgeons were ready, the operating rooms were ready and the OR nurses were ready. Everyone was ready, but there were no beds to put these people into after their procedures were completed. Will the minister finally admit that this government has in the past five years cut too many beds and has put our health care system into crisis?

Hon. G. Abbott: Again, if patients are experiencing challenges, I'm very concerned about it. But again, I would find it extraordinarily helpful if the member would advise me of what hospital facility she's referring to. She hasn't done that. I presume she is talking about the Kootenay regional hospital in Trail, but I won't assume that. If she is, that regional hospital is doing surgeries today that would not have been done five years ago.

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The Kootenay regional hospital in Trail has been upgraded tremendously. There's been a huge investment made in the Trail regional hospital. I presume the member still supports the location of the hospital in Trail, and I presume that she supports the extensive investment in upgrading the facilities at Trail that has been undertaken by this government.

D. Cubberley: I want to try and help the members opposite a little bit with their collective amnesia. You cut beds in Vernon, Penticton, Oliver, Osoyoos, Summerland and Princeton. You pushed the demand to Kelowna, and you cut residential care beds there as well. Now the ER is gridlocked, and they're cancelling surgeries again.

Dr. Ertel said: "We're very concerned we're going to have somebody die in the waiting room. We just don't physically have enough beds to see people." My question is: when will the minister acknowledge the bed crisis caused by his government's cuts, and when will he commit to fixing it?

Hon. G. Abbott: Again, I would remind the opposition Health critic that between the years 1993 and 2000 when the former NDP government was in office, the number of acute care beds in British Columbia fell by 3,334 — a 16-percent decline. The member says beds were closed. Well, in some cases antiquated and dilapidated facilities were closed. They were closed and replaced by new and modern facilities, often replacing four-bed wards with private rooms.

We have made a tremendous investment of about $1 billion in not only improving the lives of the frail elderly qualitatively but also quantitatively. If the member wishes, I can read him a long list of the investments that we have made in all corners of the Interior Health Authority. We're tremendously proud of that, and as we are adding even more facilities in the future, things will get even better.

Mr. Speaker: Member for Saanich South has a supplemental.

D. Cubberley: You know, I said it was collective amnesia, but in fact, it's motivated forgetting. Duncan Laidlow, IHA medical advisory chair: "There's ample evidence we're overcrowded. Our hospitals are too full, and we need to do something about it." Dr. Ertel: "Code purple days are becoming commonplace at Kelowna General, and cutbacks to acute care and long-term care beds have put the ER into permanent crisis mode."

Hospitals operating at overcapacity, hallway medicine, gridlocked emergency rooms, code purple, cancelled surgeries, patients hastily discharged or turned away — when will the minister finally acknowledge the crisis caused by cuts to acute care and seniors care beds across the IHA?

[1440]

Hon. G. Abbott: One of the things that provides a benefit for us now, as opposed to the 1990s, is that we have a tremendously strong economy. That provides us with some opportunities to do some long-overdue capital improvements and expansions to hospitals, to residential care facilities, to assisted living facilities all around this province. That didn't happen in the 1990s.

We are today making huge investments towards capital upgrade, remediation, expansion of hospitals like Kelowna, Kamloops, Prince George, Nanaimo — all around the province. We are making huge investments that have been long overdue in this province. I have said on many occasions that we are at the front end of what will be a breathtaking demographic wave moving forward. At last, a government in British Columbia is making the capital investment we need to meet that challenge.

PERFORMANCE BONUSES TO

PARTNERSHIPS B.C. PRESIDENT

LARRY BLAIN

J. Kwan: Yesterday we learned that the government paid top Liberal insider Larry Blain $499,000 last year to run Partnerships B.C. — the same person who helped write the B.C. Liberal platform in 2001. Of that half-million-dollar compensation, $170,000 is for performance bonuses. Can the Minister of Finance inform this House what specific performance targets Mr. Blain met that would warrant such a rich payout?

Hon. C. Taylor: We have been doing a lot of discussing of Partnerships B.C. during estimates, and I'm very happy to be able to repeat some of those comments here in the House.

Partnerships B.C. was set up as an initiative to really make it possible for the taxpayers of British Columbia to benefit from the infrastructure investments that we are going to make. To do that, we have looked at the P3 model, which brings in private investment as well as public expertise and knowledge so that you have a partnership.

In order to run Partnerships B.C. — in fact, in order to start Partnerships B.C., because it was quite a new idea in Canada at the time — we had to in fact have someone who had tremendous experience. We are very pleased that Larry Blain is someone with a PhD in economics, experience in the public sector with the Bank of Canada, much experience in the private sector as well. We're very fortunate that he not only started Partnerships B.C. but has brought it to the level that it is now receiving awards across Canada.

Mr. Speaker: Member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant has a supplemental.

J. Kwan: Well, by Partnerships B.C.'s own admission, taxpayers won't be able to judge their performance until years down the road.

Let me quote Mr. Blain's senior staff: "The true final measure of value for money can't be made until that concession agreement is actually completed." That's a 33-year agreement. So to the Minister of Finance again: if taxpayers have to wait 33 years to find out if they got value for money, why doesn't Mr. Blain have to wait 33

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years, as well, before he gets his rich performance bonuses?

Hon. C. Taylor: In fact, no one has to wait any time at all, because the value-for-money reports are in the public domain. One of the advantages that Partnerships B.C. has shown to the people of British Columbia is that they do work in a very transparent and accountable way. These reports are available on the Internet, and the value-for-money reports have looked at a number of projects — for instance, the ambulatory care project at Vancouver General, which will result in savings to the taxpayers of B.C. of $13 million.

The value-for-money report, for instance, on Abbotsford hospital, which is going along so well — and the people of Abbotsford are so pleased that it now includes the cancer centre — is going to in fact result in savings of $39 million. The Sea to Sky project — and anyone who has driven that highway knows how successful that is — will result in benefits to the people of British Columbia of $131 million. This is true value for money.

[1445]

G. Gentner: I hear the minister talk about transparency within Partnerships B.C., and I have to say this. This sweetheart deal would make David Dingwall blush. Imagine if in business they handed out performance bonuses before the start of every fiscal year. Can the Minister of Finance explain why she is letting Mr. Blain win the ultimate Liberal inside lotto without even checking his numbers?

Hon. C. Taylor: I do understand that the opposition doesn't like the P3 model and Partnerships B.C. — I've had four days now of hearing about this — but in fact, it is an innovative way to help taxpayers be sure that the projects we build will be on budget and will not be the disaster that the fast ferries were when the opposition was in government.

The contract that Mr. Blain signed at the beginning specifically had an area for performance bonuses, because it is critical that we do treat this as a proper business and respond in the way that the private sector would to encourage that targets be met and merit be awarded, and that's what his contract does.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

The member for Delta North has a supplemental.

G. Gentner: It's interesting that the minister wants to move from fast ferries to fast cats. Or is it fast…

An Hon. Member: Fat cats.

G. Gentner: …fat cats? Big, fat cats.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members. Members on the government side.

G. Gentner: The fact is that there's no way of telling…

Mr. Speaker: Member.

G. Gentner: …if Mr. Blain is getting value for money.

Mr. Speaker: Member, just wait until we get some quiet.

Continue.

G. Gentner: The fact is that there's no way of telling if Mr. Blain is getting value for money. The Finance Minister just wants us to take her word for it. Will the Minister of Finance just do the right thing and commit to withhold Mr. Blain's fat bonus until taxpayers know what they are getting in return?

Hon. C. Taylor: The taxpayers of British Columbia know for the first time what they're getting with these infrastructure projects. They're getting value for money, and part of it comes from the….

[Applause.]

SNOWMOBILING ACTIVITIES OF

AGRICULTURE MINISTER AND

ROLE WITH SPECIES AT RISK

S. Simpson: We know that a key aspect of the threat to a number of species including grizzlies, mountain caribou, wolverines and others comes from the expansion of motorized recreation, including snowmobiling. Responsibility for species at risk rests with the Minister of Agriculture and Lands, and we know the current minister has been a member of the Prince George Snowmobile Club — an active supporter of that sector, including lobbying for greater access to Kakwa Provincial Park and supporting the Prince George Snowmobile Club to secure $80,000 of government money for facilities.

Can the minister confirm his involvement in recreational snowmobiling…?

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members. Members on the government side, please.

Continue.

S. Simpson: Can the minister confirm his involvement in recreational snowmobiling, including representations to government, and can he tell us whether he is concerned about the clear contradiction between these activities and his responsibilities for species at risk?

Interjections.

[ Page 2930 ]

Mr. Speaker: Members.

Hon. P. Bell: You know, I guess the member opposite isn't on my Christmas card list, because my Christmas cards this year showed me on a snowmobile. So I'm sorry this is news to you. Contrary to popular belief, actually, there are thousands of people in this province that enjoy snowmobiling and other motorized activities. But let's think about species at risk and, specifically, how you encourage the ongoing development of scientific plans around that.

[1450]

It's about land use planning. It's entirely appropriate that the Ministry of Agriculture and Lands would have responsibility for developing species-at-risk strategies. We rely on science.

You know what? Let's just take a look at the north coast and central coast land use plans that we just released. There's a whole bunch of very interesting international dynamics that have come out of this. We have a whole list of international publications that have identified the north coast and central coast land use plan, which came out of this ministry, as a key piece of work.

There's one particular publication that I would like to point to, and I'll do that in a moment, because I have a sense that I'll have another chance.

S. Simpson: It's true that thousands of British Columbians are members of snowmobile clubs, but only one of them is the minister responsible for species at risk. This is a very serious situation. British Columbians are concerned about the real….

Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. Could we listen to the question so that we can get the answer.

S. Simpson: This is a serious situation. British Columbians are concerned about the real or perceived conflict of the minister, particularly when he's responsible for new species-at-risk legislation that this government says it's going to pursue in its strategic plan. How can British Columbians have confidence in that process when the minister responsible for spearheading the legislation has a bias and has demonstrated interest in promoting snowmobiling?

I'll ask the minister: will the minister recuse himself today from all matters related to species at risk, including any participation in the drafting of new legislation? If he won't do that, will he tell British Columbians how they can have any confidence in the upcoming legislation when the minister responsible has such a clear conflict?

Hon. P. Bell: It sounds to me like the member is actually suggesting that snowmobilers don't care about the environment. I'd encourage him to just come out and say that, because there are tens of thousands of snowmobilers who are in fact very, very concerned about the environment and the way they impact it.

I want to go back to what I was referring to here, which is the north coast–central coast land use plan, which is probably the most significant thing that this government or almost any government has ever done to protect the environment, the spirit bear. It's truly a historic event, I think, in the lives of British Columbians.

Let's take a look at some of the international interest that came about as a result of the north coast–central coast land use plan. In fact, it made the front page of the Washington Post , perhaps not a publication that the members opposite read. It made the front page of the New York Times . It made the front page of the Seattle Times , the Boston Globe , Forbes , ABC, CBS. I suppose members opposite don't read those publications, but perhaps here's one that they would recognize. It also made the front page of The Moscow Times .

FORESTS MINISTER CONSULTATION

ON FOREST ISSUES

S. Fraser: On Tuesday in the House, the Minister of Forests and Range stated: "I've met with any organization that wanted to sit down and discuss the coast with me over the last nine months. That process is going to continue." Then the minister would not commit to meet with the residents of Sandspit. Yesterday I asked the minister to agree to meet with the workers, concerned citizens and residents of Port Alberni. Again the minister evaded the request and would not make that commitment.

My question is to the Minister of Forests and Range. Why would the minister tell this House that he would meet with any organization that wanted to meet with him and then refuse to meet with these coastal communities?

Hon. R. Coleman: Before I respond to the question, I should declare a conflict. I live in a wood-frame house. It has wood floors, wood baseboards, wood crown moulding and wood bookcases.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members, listen.

Hon. R. Coleman: I told the Alberni News this morning that I am going to attempt to get up to the Alberni Valley in the two-week break during the month of April, because that is the first opening in my schedule. I advise the member of that right now.

[1455]

Mr. Speaker: Member for Alberni-Qualicum has a supplemental.

S. Fraser: Thank you, hon. Speaker. Pinch me. Well, I

would like to thank….

[Laughter.]

Mr. Speaker: Members. Members.

S. Fraser: I would like to thank the minister for that. It is good to see when community activism and the

[ Page 2931 ]

work we do here

in question period can produce a potentially positive result.

There are issues of the environment, of sustainability, of jobs and job loss and compensation that must be addressed. So will the minister commit to making sure that this is a meaningful consultation and that the minister will be prepared to look at things like the 150 Franklin Division workers who have not been compensated through the Forestry Revitalization Act?

Hon. R. Coleman: To the member opposite: I guess he can define in his mind what would be meaningful, and I will define it in mine. I intend to try and make the best use of my time while I'm in the area — to review everything from forest practices to environmental issues to watershed — to deal with some of the issues that are facing us with regards to some of the operations out there. I also intend to meet with workers — actually, in other areas of the province as well — which I've been doing.

But let's be clear about something. I said it yesterday, and I'll say it again. When you're talking about forestry, remember that there are jobs where people actually work in the bush. Some people maintain the equipment, some people operate the equipment, and some people actually cut the trees. Some people actually move the trucks and move the lots. All of those are jobs. All of those are jobs that actually support families in your communities, and I think it's important to understand that forestry has to coexist with that and the manufacturing sector and the economies that affect the wood markets in the world.

Hon. member, that's what we're going to work for — a coordinated approach to forestry in British Columbia.

GOVERNMENT COMPUTER SYSTEM SECURITY

H. Lali:

Yesterday we asked eight serious questions of the Minister of Citizens' Services

on the breach of security of personal information. When people give their most

sensitive and personal information, they trust that the government will keep it

safe and secure. At no time did this minister show any seriousness for British

Columbians' concerns. Instead, the minister has been disrespectful of this House

and of British Columbians. At no time did the minister tell this House, as he

did outside the House, that hackers had stored pornography on the government server.

My question: will the minister finally give this issue the seriousness and respect it deserves? Why did the minister deliberately choose not to inform this House that foreign hackers had broken into the government computer servers and stored pornography on them?

Hon. M. de Jong: I must confess that I am baffled by the nature of the question the member brings to the floor, because we did have an extensive discussion. We talked about the security measures that are in place. We talked about the fact that attempts had been made, that material had been deposited, that the RCMP had been contacted and were investigating the people responsible for that.

Now, perhaps the member would like me to come before the House and lay out in detail, for the whole world to see, the precise nature of the safeguards we put in place to protect British Columbians. I got news for him. That may be his approach to safeguarding British Columbians' privacy; it's not this government's.

[End of question period.]

[1500]

Orders of the Day

Hon. M. de Jong: In Committee A, Committee of Supply, and for the information of members the continued estimates of the Ministry of Finance. In this chamber, Committee B, second reading of Bill 3.

Second Reading of Bills

PUBLIC AGENCY ACCOMMODATION ACT

Hon. M. de Jong: I do move that Bill 3 be read a second time now.

This is what I'd like to say about the bill that's before the House. Its purpose is straightforward — although significant, I must say — in terms of the structural alignment of government and particularly that part of government that is responsible for the management, purchase and sale of realty assets that are a key part of housing various services that government delivers.

Bill 3 repeals the British Columbia Buildings Corporation Act. It dissolves that Crown corporation, and it transfers its assets and its obligations to government. It gives back to the government rights and powers similar to those that were exercised by the corporation.

For the information of members, most of whom I think understand this, the corporation came into being in the mid-1970s and at that time assumed responsibility for the functions that I have just related. The bill accomplishes the transfer of BCBC's operations to the Ministry of Labour and Citizens' Services. This is in furtherance of an announcement that was made by government in July of last year.

Integrating BCBC's accommodation and real estate services into the ministry is, for us, a key building block in enhancing the government's approach to shared services. It will, in the government's view and in my view, enhance efficiency gains. It will lead to service delivery improvements and to reduced administrative and executive costs — all for the benefit of the customers, of government and most importantly, of course, of the taxpayers who are responsible for financing the functions that BCBC, and now the ministry, are responsible for.

[S. Hawkins in the chair.]

In terms of the structure that will replace the corporate structure of the B.C. Buildings Corp., this bill will confer upon the Minister of Labour and Citizens' Ser-

[ Page 2932 ]

vices those powers necessary to enable the ministry to carry out all aspects of what was the corporation's business, including administration of the corporation's real property assets. Specifically, the bill transfers to government all of the corporation's rights, all of its properties, all of its assets and, importantly, its obligations and liabilities.

[1505]

The bill also ensures that government is able to deal with the corporation's rights, properties and assets in its own name where a record or register shows the corporation is owner. That is significant insofar as the land title registry in many instances will continue to show BCBC on the title by virtue of this statutory instrument. The government and the Crown will be able to deal with those assets, as they are its own.

Secondly, the bill enables the Minister of Labour and Citizens' Services to acquire land for the purposes of accommodating public agencies. It provides the minister and the ministry with the power to dispose of land. It provides services for the lands such as development, maintenance and management and to set and levy fees in connection with the ministry's services.

Thirdly, the bill permits the Minister of Labour and Citizens' Services to transfer the administration of any land that he or she administers to another ministry and other minister with that minister's consent.

Lastly, in terms of the structure that is put in place by virtue of Bill 3, this bill allows each of the registrars of land titles to amend their registers to reflect the transfer of land ownership from BCBC, the Crown corporation, to the government in the guise of the Ministry of Labour and Citizens' Services.

Finally, let me say that the work that has been undertaken for almost 30 years by the individuals within BCBC, the Crown corporation, is to be applauded. They have brought great dedication and diligence to the assignments they have been provided with in terms of the management of the real estate portfolio. This changed model is a reflection of an ability we believe as government that we can bring to effect greater efficiencies, to effect significant cost savings.

I have been heartened by the response this has elicited both from people within the corporation itself who remain dedicated to the task that they have been assigned and from others who see the value, and the ultimate value, to taxpayers in effecting this change.

I know that the opposition critic has some comments that he would like to offer with respect to Bill 3.

H. Lali: I rise in support of Bill 3. The opposition agrees with the government in terms of bringing BCBC back into the fold of government. It had been bounced around a little bit since the Liberal government had taken office, and as a result, there was a fair bit of uncertainty that took place since 2001. There was a bit of chaos, also, created by guarded core reviews that for years had undermined the workplace.

After BCBC's privatized operations — the failed attempt to privatize this — it cost about $6½ million over that time. I'm glad that the government has the good sense to bring this back into the government fold. I know there was a time when the NDP were in government. Some of the assets of BCBC were being sold, and at that time the opposition — when the government was in opposition — were actually quite critical. Some of the Liberal members at that time had equated that to "heating your home by burning the furniture." That was then, and I guess this is now.

[Mr. Speaker in the chair.]

I'm certainly glad, and so is our caucus, that BCBC is going to be brought back within the fold of government again. Also, this provides the certainty and the stability that not only the workers who work at BCBC are looking for but also the clientele and the customers that are out there who deal with BCBC on a regular basis, as it is if not the largest then one of the largest managers of real estate assets in British Columbia.

Having said that, I would conclude my remarks by saying that we are in support of this. I believe it is a good thing to keep it within the fold, and certainly government, the workers and the people who use BCBC will be happy. I'll sit down with these remarks.

[1510]

Mr. Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the Minister of Labour and Citizens' Services closes debate.

Hon. M. de Jong: Well, I've been around this place long enough to take the support and run, and that's what I will do. I will therefore move second reading.

Motion approved.

Hon. M. de Jong: I move that the bill be referred to a Committee of the Whole House for consideration at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 3, Public Agency Accommodation Act, read a second time and referred to a Committee of the Whole House for consideration at the next sitting of the House after today.

Hon. M. de Jong: Mr. Speaker, I call Bill 4.

AGRICULTURE AND LANDS STATUTES

AMENDMENT ACT, 2006

Hon. P. Bell: Mr. Speaker, I move that Bill 4 be read a second time now.

Bill 4 amends the Land Act and the Ministry of Lands, Parks and Housing Act by expanding the minister's authority to delegate his or her powers under these acts to other ministers.

[ Page 2933 ]

Finally, the bill does not change the minister's current ability to delegate authority to a government corporation, a public officer in the ministry or the surveyor general to act on the minister's behalf under these specific sections of the act.

B. Ralston: I rise very briefly to speak to this bill. The opposition supports this bill. It would appear to be a routine amendment that simply adds members of the executive council, that is cabinet ministers, to the list of potential delegees.

The only issue that will be pursued in committee, I suppose, will be the issue of transparency, after the delegation has been made, of the ensuing sales that take place within the different ministries. I understand it's contemplated that this may be of particular assistance to the ministry responsible for — the term is escaping me now — resorts; that's it. Those involve fairly complicated land deals and very huge agreements, and so there is an issue of being able to follow the ultimate disposition and the proceeds of sale should some citizen wish to do that, and that's something that will be more properly pursued at the committee stage.

The only other issue that I would raise is this does give the potential to delegate to the Ministry of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation the sale and disposition of Crown land. Again, that's an issue that we will pursue at the committee stage.

Finally, this would appear to be consistent with the government's direction in that Land and Water B.C., originally set up as a separate agency to dispose of Crown land, has been resolved and brought back into the Ministry of Agriculture and Lands. So this policy direction would appear to be consistent with that move and the opposition supports that.

Mr. Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the Minister of Agriculture and Lands closes debate.

Hon. P. Bell: Knowing when we have support, we will take that and run and appreciate that it's a Thursday afternoon.

Motion approved.

Hon. P. Bell: I do appreciate the opposition member identifying the key areas. We'll make sure that we have the appropriate answers for him in committee stage.

With that, I move Bill 4 be referred to a Committee of the Whole House to be considered at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 4, Agriculture and Lands Statutes Amendment Act, 2006, read a second time and referred to a Committee of the Whole House for consideration at the next sitting of the House after today.

[1515]

Hon. M. de Jong: I call Committee of Supply for the consideration of the estimates of the Ministry of Small Business and Revenue.

Committee of Supply

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF SMALL

BUSINESS AND REVENUE AND MINISTER

RESPONSIBLE FOR REGULATORY REFORM

(continued)

The House in Committee of Supply (Section B); S. Hawkins in the chair.

The committee met at 3:16 p.m.

On Vote 39: ministry operations, $45,200,000 (continued).

M. Karagianis: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. That was the quickest bill debate I've ever seen in my life.

We were questioning this morning…. I was actually questioning the minister about revenue streams, and I know we had only just got started on that. So if I could, please, perhaps go back to my original question of this morning, which was…. The minister had alluded in the fall to 40 revenue streams of government, and perhaps he could elaborate a little bit more on what those 40 streams are, please.

Hon. R. Thorpe: What I believe I referred to in the fall, and what I often refer to, is the 40 streams of accounts receivable in government. That is why, under the leadership of our Premier, the Ministry of Provincial Revenue, as it was first known, was created. It was created to actually consolidate these 40 accounts receivable revenue streams and then move forward in a very sophisticated centre-of-excellence approach for collection of those accounts receivable, for the management of those accounts receivable, and to have a much more efficient process for the collection of moneys due to British Columbians.

So it was really not new revenue streams; it is the consolidation of accounts receivable streams within government today.

[1520]

M. Karagianis: I will have further questions about the consolidation later on in my questioning. At this point I'm trying to really kind of determine these 40 revenue streams. I have a list here of the legislation that is administered by the ministry, and it includes: corporate capital tax, homeowner's grants, hotel room tax — all of these. Would these be among the 40 revenue streams that the minister is referring to?

Hon. R. Thorpe: Yes.

M. Karagianis: Among these, I do have a select number of questions that refer to very specific legislative acts that the minister is responsible for.

The first I'd like to ask about is the E&N belt tax. The minister may be aware of the fact that this is of particular and keen interest to my constituents. I'm wondering if the minister can talk a little bit about this

[ Page 2934 ]

act. There's been much said over the past number of months about this tax, about its implications on the newly formed Island corridor and, certainly, some curiosity around whether or not this belt tax act is going to be invoked. It has not up to this point been used, to the best of my knowledge. Certainly, the newly formed Island Corridor Foundation is hopeful that this tax will not be enacted on their behalf.

I would ask the minister, first of all, how active this tax act is, and whether or not it's the intention of government to, in fact, apply that tax to the Island Corridor Foundation.

Hon. R. Thorpe: Government will certainly consider very carefully the public interest of this matter. The tax considerations are very, very substantial, and quite frankly, they're quite complex. We are currently reviewing the entire situation.

M. Karagianis: Perhaps the minister could be a bit more forthcoming about the nature of the tax: what triggers its application; why, in fact, the tax has not been applied up to this point on that E&N corridor; and give us a little bit of an indication of what the history of this has been.

Hon. R. Thorpe: It's my understanding that the belt tax act was first introduced in the 1950s and that there have been taxes triggered by this, the last time being sometime in the 1970s.

Generally, what has happened…. Of course, I'm sure the member would appreciate that I cannot talk or speculate about individual tax matters, but generally, what triggers this tax and what this act does…. It's triggered and a tax is payable at the value of 25 percent of the land that is withdrawn from the parcels.

[1525]

M. Karagianis: If the last time this was triggered was in the 1970s, can the minister confirm that in fact this tax has not been collected since that time?

Hon. R. Thorpe: My understanding of the legislation is that the onus for triggering the tax in this statute is placed upon the railway company when a title is transferred. To our knowledge, the railway company has not advised us that they have done anything with any of the lands.

M. Karagianis: Well, minister, the actual railway has changed hands several times since the 1970s. It was originally owned by CP and then the Esquimalt and Nanaimo. That was taken over by RailAmerica some years ago. Now all of the corridor has been consolidated, and there was a press event here not too long ago that actually devolved all the land to the Island Corridor Foundation, which is made up of municipal communities and aboriginal communities up and down the length and breadth of Vancouver Island. It is a grave concern of theirs — what the triggering mechanism may or may not be for this tax.

Historically, it has not been triggered when rail interests have exchanged hands. From E&N to RailAmerica did not trigger this tax to the best of my understanding and knowledge. So at this point, the organization, Island communities and all of the interests in the Island corridor have been asking of government and of their representatives whether or not this tax, in fact, has been collected, will be collected or under what circumstances it will be left dormant.

Hon. R. Thorpe: As I said to the member earlier, and I'll say it again…. Quite frankly, because of my obligations of confidentiality and protection of personal information, I'm not going to get into a discussion on the personal aspects of tax legislation on particular tax filers or whether files have been filed or haven't been filed with respect to individual organizations or companies. I have a fiduciary responsibility, a statutory responsibility, to safeguard the protection of this information.

What I have said is that government will certainly consider carefully the public interest of this matter. The tax considerations, again, are extremely complex, and they are very substantial. We are currently reviewing the situation.

M. Karagianis: So the minister will not respond to me for the reasons he has outlined here. Can I just clarify to whom the minister will respond in this case?

Certainly, the Island Corridor Foundation has been seeking the assistance of their duly elected members of the Legislative Assembly for some support in this. It would help very much if I can give them some direction in who they might expect to send as their emissary to obtain this information, certainly understanding that the members on the Island here that are supporting the initiative are here to encourage and support government in the kinds of considerations that the minister has outlined. But it would help greatly if we knew exactly what the process would be that would satisfy the minister.

[1530]

Hon. R. Thorpe: As I said earlier, the triggering of the tax liability is a responsibility of the owner of the lands. To my knowledge, we have not been officially advised on that triggering of that activity. I would suspect that if we do receive official notification, then it would be most appropriate for my officials to meet with the appropriate officials involved in any potential tax liabilities that may exist.

M. Karagianis: Thanks through to the minister. I will certainly look into the issue of whether or not the organization has notified or intends to notify the minister in writing and will then save our energies, from the MLAs' point of view, until we can urge you to respond quickly or something of that nature.

Going back to the revenue streams, there are a number of them here. I could certainly ask questions on several of them, but I'm wondering whether or not

[ Page 2935 ]

it's possible for me to obtain a report of what the revenue streams are, rather than having to go through and ask in each one of these areas specific questions that the minister may or may not feel inclined to answer.

Hon. R. Thorpe: Yes, I will ask my staff. We've just discussed it. We will prepare for you the list of the 40 revenue systems, and we will get that to you in the next couple days.

M. Karagianis: Thank you to the minister and staff on that. That would be very helpful. I look forward to reading that and may in fact approach the minister, after the estimates, to further discuss any questions I have there.

I know we discussed, back in the fall, the possibility of fine collection, other than traffic fines, that might be transferred to the minister. Is that in fact part of the larger revenue management system planning at this point, or has that taken place?

Hon. R. Thorpe: One of the aspects of moving forward on our consolidated revenue management system and our centre of excellence here in British Columbia for the management of the receivables is a process called onboarding. We are currently, as I said earlier this morning, in the final stages of building the RMS system, and we are now in a variety of discussions with potential onboardings.

Of course, when you're looking at those, you're looking at the business case for doing it, if there is a cost involved in bringing somebody onto a system. So we are now in the process. That is potentially one of the items that could be brought into a central accounts receivable management. At this point in time it's not a high priority, but eventually it's something that we would envisage.

M. Karagianis: Thank you for the answer to that. I look forward to exploring a little bit more about the revenue management system again at a later time.

I do have some questions here with regard to the new homeowner's grants. I know that homeowners across British Columbia are very appreciative of the lift in the homeowner's grant, but there is a document on record that is a petition from float homes around British Columbia, which have typically been left out of the homeowner's grant process. I would ask the minister whether or not there is going to be reconsideration of that, given the fact that there's been a lift to homeowners. It has not been extended to those who live on the water. Would the minister like to respond in any way to consideration of float homes?

[1535]

Hon. R. Thorpe: As I said earlier in our debates, we in the Ministry of Small Business and Revenue actually get to administer the tax policy once it's been established. It is, actually, the Minister of Finance who does make the decisions with respect to tax policy items that are, obviously, announced for the most

part in the budget every year. I believe it's the third Tuesday of every February.

I would be very interested in receiving whatever documentation the member has, and I'm assuming this might be from one of her constituency groups — float homes, knowing a little bit about her riding. That's good. If the member wanted to get that information to me, I'd be very, very pleased to make sure that it gets to the Minister of Finance for her consideration, as she always does when she is preparing budgets.

M. Karagianis: In fact, it's constituencies outside of my own, as well, although I do have a considerable float home community in my constituency. I'd be happy to pass along the information that I have to the minister, but it does make me a little bit curious, then, about the fact that this is listed as one of the things, the legislation, that's administered by the ministry.

This is, I guess, where I have some confusion, certainly, about who I ask questions around some responsibilities. I ran into this in the fall, as well, where a number of questions I had were in fact for the Minister of Finance rather than for this ministry. Can the minister perhaps outline just a little bit where, I guess, the barriers are in the legislation that you administer versus where other ministries or the Finance Minister actually has the authority?

Hon. R. Thorpe: First of all, it's actually only the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Small Business and Revenue. Policy decisions are made by the Minister of Finance. For the most part, those decisions are usually communicated to British Columbians in the provincial budget on the third Tuesday of February.

Once those decisions have been announced, our ministry then works extremely closely with the Ministry of Finance officials on the implementation and ramifications of those legislative changes. Once that has been completed — and I must say through the whole budget process — ministry officials, from Small Business and Revenue and Finance policy, work extremely closely together and do an excellent job.

Once that handoff takes place to the Ministry of Small Business and Revenue, then we administer the tax statute, whatever it may be. An example would be the changes now that have taken place with respect to the machinery and equipment exemption for provincial sales tax. That would be an example. One of those examples is the minister adding to the exemption list spare parts used to build equipment here in British Columbia. Previously that was not part of the exemption process.

Now, it's a two-way street that we work on a lot of the time, because we're in consultation. We're involved day to day in the field working with small businesses and other enterprises throughout British Columbia, and we're getting feedback all the time on what's working, what's not working, and we generally feed that up to the Minister of Finance. Then their policy group, working together with our policy group, reaches some decisions.

[ Page 2936 ]

For the most part, the Finance Minister is guided by the pressures that we've talked about earlier today: what do we need to invest in health care and education, what do we need to invest in competitive personal tax rates, and what do we do for small business tax rates? That's generally how it works. I guess if it were a real short answer: the Finance Minister announces policy; we then administer that policy on a day-to-day basis and provide feedback to the Minister of Finance on things that we're hearing in the marketplaces.

[1540]

M. Karagianis: Let me understand clearly now. How wide of an

interpretation do you have about applying some of these policies? In the case where we go back to homeowner's grants, has the Finance Minister's policy been so prescriptive that it says that homeowner's grants will apply to homes located on land but not on water? Or, in fact, is there some…?

Policy generally is fairly broad, and it is in the administration of legislation that the details come in about what is prohibited and what is not. I would certainly think, even from my experience at the municipal level, that policy and administration…. In fact, the details come in the administrative side of this. Perhaps the minister could just enlighten me a little bit more on that.

Hon. R. Thorpe: Thank you for the questions, because it is a complex issue. Tax administration and tax policy are complex, and that is why they are put in legislation. Tax policy is prescribed in legislation. Most tax policy is captured in detailed legislation to avoid misinterpretations. But what does happen from time to time…. We're all human beings. I don't know if you've ever noticed that it's not very often that many of us are perfect every day, so sometimes there are things that need to be corrected.

Things may have sounded good when they were being designed, but when they are actually put into application, somebody scratches the back of their head and says: "That doesn't make a whole bunch of sense."

Let me give you an example. Tax policy with respect to the homeowner's grants for those with disabilities is outlined very clearly in legislation. In our administering of the homeowner grant, a situation came to my attention from an individual who had a disability. In the homeowner grant, to qualify for it, you actually had to demonstrate that you had spent a certain number of dollars to provide the renovations — whatever was required — to your residence which was entitled to a homeowner's grant.

Well, that is admirable. We're helping those with disabilities. But what happens when that person with disabilities has made this investment in their home in community "A" and then moves to community "B" and buys a home that already has the ramps and the wide doors and all that? They actually, according to the law, were not eligible for the disability grant. We brought this real-life situation to the attention of the Minister of Finance, and of course, on budget day, like all other British Columbians, I heard what the Minister of Finance delivered to this House.

They were making a change so that when somebody does buy a house that has already had the improvements, if they are paying "X" dollars, we could assume that part of the purchase price covered those ramps. Therefore, they are eligible.

We actually hear about the things on the ground. We then have a process that we work very closely on with Finance officials, and we move them up. That is how the system works. They make policy; we administer it. We hear things, we see things, we provide feedback, and where appropriate, the minister makes the appropriate decisions to modify — generally to cover the overall intent of the original policy.

M. Karagianis: In the case of float homes, if we can just continue to discuss that a little bit further. In fact, it is the legislative language of this ministry that categorizes float homes along with manufactured homes and, therefore, makes them ineligible. Is that part of the legislation that came from the Minister of Finance? Is that where this kind of language needs to be interpreted or amended, or is that from this ministry?

[1545]

Hon. R. Thorpe: It might be easier just to outline what the eligibility criteria are. You must be an owner under the act, typically a registered owner, but it also includes registered life tenants and registered holders of agreements of sale. You must be a resident of British Columbia. The property must be shown as a separate taxable parcel on the tax roll and have an improvement occupied as residential accommodation. You must occupy the property as your principal residence. There are special eligibility criteria for apartment buildings, housing co-op buildings and housing society buildings.

M. Karagianis: If I understand correctly, nowhere in that legislative language does it talk about manufactured homes or float homes, and it makes no judgment whatsoever on them. So one would ask why they are not covered and eligible for homeowner grants.

Hon. R. Thorpe: The member asked a question with regard to mobile homes. We're currently seeking clarification. If you want to move on to another question, as soon as I get that, I'll provide it to you while we're here, shortly.

M. Karagianis: Thank you very much. I'll move on now to another area.

Although I know I'm going to be getting detailed information and reports from you on the revenue streams, I was fascinated by the topic around tobacco use. I know the ministry has launched ActNow, whose mandate or intent is to reduce tobacco use by 10 percent. I was fascinated by the connection with that to the contraband tobacco. In fact, I guess my questions would be: first of all, how much income do tobacco sales produce? And then from there: where's the differentiation between reducing all tobacco use and just contraband?

[ Page 2937 ]

Hon. R. Thorpe: Tobacco-tax revenue is estimated at just under $700 million — about $690 million a year.

M. Karagianis: In the efforts to reduce tobacco use, why specifically is the ministry targeting just contraband tobacco rather than reducing all tobacco sales?

[1550]

Hon. R. Thorpe: First of all, let me make sure that the member is fully informed that we are concerned about all forms of tobacco — legal tobacco and contraband tobacco.

There is an extreme interest in contraband tobacco and illegal tobacco sales, because generally, they are obviously coming into the country and into the province illegally. They are also generally sold in the black market or in what is deemed to be the black market. They are generally sold at lower prices, which would then make it much more attractive to people to purchase that type of product — including our youth, which all of us are very, very concerned about.

We do have a special tobacco unit that focuses on enforcement, special investigations. We work together with the RCMP, federal officials, international officials. We do a number of inspections. Working together with Health Ministry officials, we play a very important role, and will play a very important role, in our government in making sure that we achieve that goal of reducing tobacco consumption by 10 percent.

Contraband tobacco is a very serious issue, and one that I have had the opportunity to visit with our officials. A large percentage of these individuals are retired or former senior law enforcement officers. They understand the street — if I could use that term — very well, and it's quite amazing.

It's very hard to estimate, but one of the areas of activity where we have concern is tobacco coming in from overseas, made in countries overseas. If a container comes through and is not apprehended, potential revenue losses to the province are upwards of $3 million. It's very financially attractive for those that want to deal in this. There are estimates that the potential revenue lost to the province could be upwards of $200 million. Of course, those are estimates. It's very hard to figure out those kinds of estimates.

One of the ways we attempt to monitor whether there's an ever-increasing flow of contraband tobacco is to monitor our tax revenue that we get versus other things that happen — markups, prices changing. We don't believe that today there's any more contraband than was coming in a year ago or two years ago, but it's an issue that we have people working on — again, with federal and international law enforcement officers — to make every effort to control it.

M. Karagianis: I would certainly perceive that the vast amounts of money we're talking about could be seen as part of the underground economy.

Does the minister have any concern about cross-border sales in tobacco? Certainly, the issue of cross-border sales has been of extremely keen interest to the minister. There have been times here in this country where cheap tobacco coming from other provinces has been a huge issue federally. I believe that to this day, if you enter the province of Manitoba, you are not allowed to bring cigarettes in without declaring them, much the same as if you were entering a foreign port and had to declare anything you were bringing out of the country with you. Are the cross-border sales an issue, as well, on this? And what kind of dollars are attributed to that?

[1555]

Hon. R. Thorpe: Cross-border is always an issue with respect to tobacco products. That is why we have working arrangements with Canada Border Services for things coming in from the United States. That's why we have arrangements with Border Services and Canada Post for things coming in from overseas by post. That was a new program we put in place a year or year and a half ago. We had seen through the observations that law enforcement officials make that this was an area of concern.

The member is quite right that there have been parts of Canada, in eastern Canada, with relationships with certain organizations in the northeast United States — things coming into Canada and finding their way across Canada. Those are all reasons we have the 24-person special investigations unit.

We also have a very close working relationship with respect to receiving information on shipments from the authorized tobacco retailers, sellers rather, into British Columbia. We do also monitor very closely the tax-exempt sales that are arranged through a number of our first nations.

M. Karagianis: I'm puzzled by the term "watching the authorized retail sellers." Is the minister inferring that there are some underground activities even through the legitimate retail networks?

Hon. R. Thorpe: No, I'm not suggesting that at all. What I was referring to — and perhaps wasn't quite as clear as I should have been — was the cigarette manufacturers who ship to British Columbia. They, too, have an extremely vested interest in making sure that not only the province of British Columbia but other jurisdictions in Canada know legal product versus counterfeit, contraband product that is being shipped into Canada from overseas markets masquerading as some of their brands.

They, too, have a vested interest in counterfeit goods, and they provide us with information to assist our very good special investigations unit with the work that they have to do. Again, this is information from manufacturers.

Retailers. As the member may know, there has been a project called the ID project — the identification project. The government has in place that you have to produce two pieces of ID if you don't look 25 years of age. These are ongoing things. I would suspect that as we move forward, we're all going — on the government and the opposition sides — to have to work very, very

[ Page 2938 ]

closely to make sure that we're doing everything we can to safeguard our youth, quite frankly, from things that we know can cause severe, life-ending danger to people in British Columbia.

M. Karagianis: I'm sure the minister meant 19 years of age, not 25.

Hon. R. Thorpe: That's correct; 19 is the correct age.

[1600]

M. Karagianis: I thought perhaps the legislation had changed, and I was unaware of the fact that you had to be 25 to sign for cigarettes in this province.

The minister mentioned some concerns with first nations cigarette sales as well. Can you explain the jurisdictional difference there with first nations and what, if any, changes you would like to see or might anticipate?

Hon. R. Thorpe: There is an exempt sales retail dealers program, but to be a part of this, they must be registered with the provincial government to sell a product. Generally, this is based on the population of the area that they serve, and it is all covered under the Indian Act of Canada. Our registration, review and monitoring programs are very similar to other provinces across Canada.

I would be remiss if I didn't say that in working with first nations on the exempt sales retail dealers information, we have a very, very good working relationship. All the partners seem to be extremely pleased with the way it's going.

M. Karagianis: I'll move on, then, just with some specific questions here about oil and gas revenue. I'm presuming we still are fine with the same staff if we're discussing this revenue as well.

Has the minister had any meetings with the oil and gas industry in the last year?

Hon. R. Thorpe: Yes.

M. Karagianis: Would the minister care to elaborate? Is this a process — that he meets with the oil and gas industry regularly? What staff members may be involved? And is this an ongoing process, much like some of his meetings with other aspects of the business community?

Hon. R. Thorpe: Yes. With other members of our government — led by the Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources, who is our lead minister — I meet from time to time with members of the Canadian Petroleum Association and with oil and gas contractors and other related organizations, as we do with lots of organizations.

Yes, my staff do meet on an ongoing basis with officials. Revenue through the province of British Columbia from the oil and gas industry is substantial. We are continually working with the industry to make sure that where we can simplify and streamline processes, we're doing that with industry. We're also continually working with industry to ensure that British Columbians are receiving their fair and equitable share, whether it be sales tax or royalties, etc.

[1605]

[S. Hammell in the chair.]

We do have a branch in the Ministry of Revenue that does look after oil and gas revenue. Of course, in our sales tax branch we also have specialists related to that. In fact, we have had a special northeast oil and gas strategy to make sure that Alberta contractors operating in British Columbia for the most part are paying the sales tax due.

It's part of a process that we meet with groups and associations and individuals as appropriate, as staff deem to be necessary, to make sure that we're getting our work done and, from a ministerial perspective, to make sure that we understand the issues, understand the opportunities and understand how we can further enhance the oil and gas industry in the province for the benefit of British Columbians.

M. Karagianis: Can the minister give us a list of who the companies are that he has met with in the past year?

Hon. R. Thorpe: Generally, I meet with members of the association. It's called CAPP. They generally come to Victoria and/or Vancouver a couple of times a year, and we sit down and chat about things. It's generally the industry association rather than individual companies.

M. Karagianis: I do understand that the members of the association…. I would expect that the names of the companies that belong to that association would be readily available?

Hon. R. Thorpe: I would assume that if the member chose to go on the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers' website, I'm sure they probably have some indication of who their members are.

M. Karagianis: I will certainly avail myself of that. Has the minister met with Suncor recently or in the last year?

Hon. R. Thorpe: I'm sorry; I didn't catch the name.

M. Karagianis: Has the minister met with Suncor Energy Inc. — S-u-n-c-o-r?

Hon. R. Thorpe: Not to my recollection.

M. Karagianis: One of the things we discussed in the fall was the audits. Certainly, we did have some in-depth discussion about the oil and gas sector and the reliance on…. I think the minister talked about sophis-

[ Page 2939 ]

ticated techniques for auditing and for, I guess, investigating where and when all revenues may not have been forthcoming.

Is there a list of companies that have been audited in the last year?

Hon. R. Thorpe: The tax statutes and the legislation pertaining to tax statutes guarantee protection of personal and private information. Yes, I and senior staff know who have been audited, but that information is protected because of the statutes and the legislation to protect personal and private information.

M. Karagianis: In regard to the audits, I know that Bill 9 was tabled in the House yesterday. Certainly, there are some implications in the language there. Can the minister perhaps answer whether or not he's had any direct input on Bill 9?

[1610]

Hon. R. Thorpe: I would think that discussion on Bill 9 would be most appropriate in the committee stage of that bill, when it comes to that stage.

M. Karagianis: So we'll leave that for the time being.

I know that in our discussions in the fall there was also some reference to new amendments for ensuring that all revenue was collected. Can the minister perhaps elaborate a little bit on that? Have there, in fact, been new amendments that were addressed? Does this refer to just the Costco investigation of that nature, or is there something else that is coming out of those amendments?

Hon. R. Thorpe: Generally speaking, the amendments pertaining to tax policy and statutes are introduced along with the budget when the Minister of Finance introduces that budget. There were some changes that do require some legislative changes, and I believe they are in the budget-related legislation that will be discussed in the House at the appropriate time.

With respect to any other amendments, I can't forecast what legislation may come. Generally, amendments to tax statutes do have to come in the form of legislative change, which then would be discussed at committee stage if and when such legislation came forward.

M. Karagianis: Well, I know that in our discussions in the fall there was reference specifically to proposed amendments to production regulation, reporting and collecting of tax royalties. If the minister is saying that there is no such legislation planned or coming forward or in discussion or that he's unable to discuss that, perhaps he could clarify what he meant in the fall.

Hon. R. Thorpe: I'm sorry. I do not recollect the discussions that the member is referring to. If she wanted to provide the detail, it may refresh my mind in that regard.

M. Karagianis: It was an extensive discussion we were actually having. It spreads over three pages of the Hansard from last fall, so I'd be happy to highlight these pieces for the minister. Perhaps we can discuss it once that's been done.

[1615]

I will move along to a reference here to debt transfer portfolio. Again, this leads us to this revenue management system that you referred to before, and perhaps that's what this referred to. Back in the fall, when we were discussing collections, one of the things that the minister said related to this transfer of debt portfolios from other ministries. Again, I'm making the connection that we're talking about this consolidated revenue management system, and I see the minister nodding his head.

Then I guess I'll move on, although certainly that question and that discussion may come up again. I'd like to move, then, into Regulatory Reform, if I can, providing this doesn't cause a large change in staff, does it?

Hon. R. Thorpe: No, we have all of the appropriate staff here. We just need a little time to work them in and out, but if we're going to move on to Regulatory Reform, we'll make sure that the regulatory reform person is here. So go ahead and ask your question, and we'll be ready for you. Our person from Regulatory Reform will be here momentarily.

M. Karagianis: Certainly, I beg forgiveness if further questions that I have are going to require staff members to come back and forth. It was not my intention to do that, but as the minister has indicated several times, very complex issues…. There are many complex threads that run back and forth through the Revenue portion of the minister's responsibilities, as well as the Small Business and certainly Regulatory Reform. In some cases I was using the ministry's own reporting system and the way they have outlined things to judge my organizing the questions here.

We had some extensive discussion last fall about regulatory reform. I know that this is a topic that the minister is usually quite keen to discuss, so can the minister perhaps just give me a general update at this point from our discussions in the fall?

Oh, and I see him flexing, so he's excited.

Hon. R. Thorpe: Yes, it's not only one that I like to talk about; it's actually one that our government likes to talk about very much.

You know, from when we first formed government in 2001, to the current Minister of Transportation taking an extremely active involvement, and then the now Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General being involved, and myself being involved, and of course all of our government being involved, we set a goal of one-third for regulatory reform in the province.

To start that, we actually had to start with a baseline. There were some in the beginning that ridiculed our government for actually counting regulations so that we could have a baseline. We knew that if we

[ Page 2940 ]

didn't have a baseline, it would be somewhere down the road that someone would be saying: "Well, how do you know you've achieved what you said you were going to achieve?" So we do have it by ministry, and we have, as of January 31, reduced the regulatory count in British Columbia by 40.32 percent, or 154,000 regulations.

That's what we call track one. As we move forward on track one, which is a pure accounting of regulations to monitor our progress, we have committed that the regulatory count throughout our government, the baseline for growth, will be zero-zero-and-zero. In fact, ministers, ministries and public servants throughout British Columbia are continually looking for improvements in our regulatory count.

At the same time, we are now going to be moving on to what we call a citizen-centred regulatory reform track, and we're going to refer to that as track two. It's going to be focused on time. It's going to be focused on how we can save British Columbians time, how we can save small business operators time. By saving them time, we believe that we actually will save time inside government. As we all know, there seem to be an awful lot of things to do for everybody these days, whether you're in government, in small business or an individual. So that is going to be our track.

[1620]

We are going to have modest beginnings. We are going to look at two or three cross-government initiatives. They have not been decided at this point in time. We are going to go through a very detailed business mapping process of identifying what is involved in those regulatory environments.

One area that's of particular interest to me is dealing with individuals with disabilities. It all started for me with the homeowner grant that I talked about earlier. That sort of caught my interest, and as we pursued that and I pursued it with my senior staff, we actually found that we could streamline and simplify some things for individuals with disabilities. As I look through government and as my officials have checked, I think there are some nine or ten ministries that are dealing with individuals with disabilities in one way or another.

What's one of the areas? We will also be looking at some economic activities, but again, those decisions have not been made at this time because the process really starts to kick off in early April.

That's where we are, again, on the regulatory count: about 154,000, with in excess of 40-percent reduction. Everyone in government has worked very hard at that. Public service has been very committed. We're going to continue to focus on that, but we're now going to move to track two, which is about saving individuals, small business and government time.

M. Karagianis: One of the things we discussed in the fall was quarterly reports on cross-government regulatory requirements. I do know that when we discussed a number of these structures around reporting out, the minister had said that many things would not be ready until March of this year. Hopefully, we're coming in at a good time to be able to report out on some of these.

Can the minister report on the quarterly reports on cross-government requirements and whether or not there's been one or two since we last met?

Hon. R. Thorpe: Yes, there is one posted every quarter, and they are posted to the website.

M. Karagianis: The reduction in regulations by 40 percent. Can the minister perhaps tell me whether or not any regulations that have been cut have needed to be reinstated for any reason?

Hon. R. Thorpe: I cannot, actually, with accuracy say that I know of this one or that one, but I think one of the things I can say is that from time to time, when regulatory reform has taken place…. I used to say this when I was in the private sector too: you can design wonderful things in a boardroom or a meeting room, but when you actually get out into the real world and try to do something, it's a different world out there.

I think it's fair to say that some of them have required modification. Some of them required a second look. But nothing jumps to mind that has been a serious concern that government has had to address, other than the ongoing operations and modification of programs that take place every day in government.

M. Karagianis: Does that actually refer to all ministries? Would the minister have that kind of knowledge of whether or not it applies to all ministries where regulations are being reduced?

Hon. R. Thorpe: Actually, our office is responsible for the collection and working with all ministries in government. As I said, I can't specifically say regulation X or Y in any particular ministry, but I can say that over all, the program is working very well.

British Columbians seem to be very, very pleased with the reduction in red tape, knowing fair well that we've done it by protecting health, safety and the environment. So if there are changes or if there are exceptions that individual ministries have had to modify, that may, of course, happen, but I'm not aware of that. I can say that I do not believe there have been any major regulations that have had to see serious changes after they have been modified.

[1625]

M. Karagianis: Has the reduction in regulations resulted in any gaps in government services anywhere?

Hon. R. Thorpe: Not to my knowledge. In fact, what we have heard for the most part, and what I've heard, is that the regulatory reform initiative undertaken in British Columbia has been acknowledged by the Canadian Federation of Independent Business as the model for Canada. As I think I've reported to this House or to other members, we've had Newfoundland and Labrador extremely interested. We've had Yukon

[ Page 2941 ]

interested. We've had the city of Winnipeg interested. And we've even had those great free-enterprisers from Alberta come to British Columbia to see how you would approach regulatory reform.

M. Karagianis: Well, I have documentation here from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business that, in fact, indicates they are not 100 percent satisfied with the whole regulatory reform system. This was sent to the previous Minister of Small Business and Economic Development. Actually, it's dated January 2005. The Canadian Federation of Independent Business was asking for publishing of the counts of the regulations for public scrutiny. It's my understanding that they still have some dissatisfaction with that. Is the minister aware of that and, in fact, able to address those concerns?

Hon. R. Thorpe: I would suspect that the member, for whatever effects as one is trying to achieve, is overcharacterizing that for dramatic effect.

However, let me say this. We work very closely with the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. They have told us time and time again that they believe British Columbia is a model. They're encouraged now that British Columbia is moving to track two. We actually think that the Canadian Federation of Independent Business is an extremely good organization, bringing real on-the-ground input into the process.

Certainly, we're always striving for continuous improvement. But I can tell you one thing: if we were being scored by the CFIB, I would be very, very surprised if we weren't getting a first-class-honours report card from CFIB for British Columbia's accomplishments in regulatory reform.

We will continue. We will continue to strive to make sure that British Columbia has the best regulatory reform approach of any jurisdiction in Canada. That is our goal, that is our commitment, and we're pleased to work with partners like the Canadian Federation of Independent Business.

M. Karagianis: So the minister is saying that he has had absolutely no communication from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business making requests about more public availability of the regulatory counts. Nothing at all?

Hon. R. Thorpe: I said no such thing, Madam Chair. I have never said that I have not heard from the CFIB. As a matter of fact, I am actually pleased that I talk to the CFIB and Laura Jones, the executive director, on an ongoing basis. They are a great organization. They are one that our government works closely with. We value their inputs, we value their ideas, and I talk to them on a regular basis. Often I just pick up the phone and call them. I don't have to wait to get letters from people to have ongoing dialogue with them.

I'm also very pleased that the CFIB and Laura Jones are actually members of the permanent Small Business Round Table in British Columbia.

M. Karagianis: In fact, I did not say that the minister had not heard from them at all. I asked whether the minister had not received any negative feedback about publishing the counts of the regulatory reform numbers. Apparently, the minister is shaking his head, so I stand corrected, and that's fine.

[1630]

I'd like to ask about the zero net increase. Has that in any way resulted in any reduction in services or reduced protection of government or increased any liability or risks, with that edict?

Hon. R. Thorpe: From the very beginning our government has followed a very disciplined approach to reforming regulations in the province. We have said, and we have held true to our word, that we would not compromise regulatory reduction and put safety at jeopardy, put people's health at jeopardy, or put the environment at jeopardy. Those are principles that we have clearly lived by.

Actually, all of the principles for regulatory reform in British Columbia are available on our website, and to my knowledge, the small business community and individuals are applauding the government for moving forward in a thoughtful partnership way to reduce the strangle of red tape that the NDP government had put in place.

M. Karagianis: I'm not sure that I got a complete answer there to my actual question, which was whether or not, in the course of regulatory reform and zero net increase, there had been any liabilities or risks to government in this straight-out reduction of regulations by quantity more than by quality and whether or not there were some risks inherent anywhere in this.

Hon. R. Thorpe: The member, perhaps, is not aware that we started with a baseline. We actually started with a reduction program, but as we've gone through, we've also added some in certain areas — for instance, in Advanced Education. Advanced Education had to add some regulations with the creation of the Thompson Rivers University and the University of British Columbia in the Okanagan. Those are netted out against reductions in Advanced Education. Obviously, as we move forward, the key is zero net. Net means gross plus or minus — net.

To my knowledge, there has not been a reduction in service as a result of regulatory reform in British Columbia, but in fact, there has been an improvement in the investment climate in British Columbia, creating more jobs, more opportunity and the strongest small-sector business that British Columbia has ever seen.

M. Karagianis: Well, you know, I'm actually not necessarily looking for a political debate here. I'm trying to determine whether or not regulatory reform has resulted in any loss of service or protection or government assets and whether there have been any gaps.

Now the minister has said to me, certainly, that this has not resulted in any gaps in government service.

[ Page 2942 ]

The minister has now said that this has not resulted in any reduced services anywhere in government and — somewhere in there, I believe, probably unspoken — that there have been no liabilities or risks to government.

But at this point, given the vast number of regulations that have been cut, can the minister give an accurate list of what has been cut and which of those some-40.2 percent of regulations, I believe the minister was saying, were redundant to government in the first place?

We all know that within every governing organization there are numbers of archaic and redundant bills and legislation that can be removed quite easily without reducing service. Certainly, when you start approaching the halfway mark where you've reduced almost half of the regulations in government, one would expect that there may be some effect on government services.

[1635]

If not, then one would wonder: were all of these simply redundant and archaic regulations that weren't actually affecting the running of government?

I know that the minister has talked about the goal of reducing red tape, and that's an admirable goal — absolutely no question about that. But in this vast number of regulations that have been cut, is it not possible that there could be some risks or liabilities that government has now found or that may be a result of that? Or have there in fact been some gaps here that are now needing to be fulfilled by some other organization, by outsourcing, by some contracted work?

I think that these are not inappropriate questions for the critic to ask and are about the regulatory reform reduction in numbers and not about a debate on representation of small business. So perhaps the minister could address whether or not there are in fact any gaps left in this vast number of regulations that have been reduced.

Hon. R. Thorpe: I think somehow that the member is trying to characterize this as a process that was easy to do, that did not take into account a professional approach to things. Nothing could be further from the truth. The regulatory reform was based on a very disciplined approach with regulatory criteria.

Let me name the ten regulatory criteria with which this approach took place: (1) there was reverse onus: the need for regulation is justified; (2) there was regulatory design: is it results-based?; (3) transparent development of regulatory requirements; (4) cost-benefit analysis; (5) competitive analysis completed; (6) avoid or eliminate duplication with other jurisdictions; (7) timeliness of regulatory response; (8) plain language; (9) sunset reviews and expiry provisions; and (10) replacement principle applied.

This was an initiative that was governmentwide, done with an extremely disciplined approach, obviously, with the principles and objectives established by government. But the day-to-day implementation was done by a very professional and dedicated public service, from deputy ministers down through the organizations. This was taken as a very, very serious task.

Employees throughout government who worked on this initiative and who continue to work on this initiative can take a moment and celebrate the achievements they have made. This is now the leadership position in Canada with respect to regulatory reform. It is done very professionally, very thoughtfully. In fact, officials from my ministry are now playing a key role in working with the federal government on an approach to regulatory reform.

Again, 154,000 regulations have been reduced, modified, changed, eliminated, etc. This is a process that will live on each and every day. The world does not stay the same. The world changes every day, and through the dedication of our public service, they will continue to modify, watch, alter and make the changes that are required to ensure that British Columbia has a world-leading regulatory-reform-code approach to making sure that red tape does not continue to creep back into British Columbia and strangle entrepreneurial spirit, small business and our competitiveness. This is a very important part of making sure that British Columbia has a very competitive jurisdiction.

[1640]

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting some of the member's comments, but this has been done by very professional employees in the public service using very professional regulatory criteria that have now become a standard for regulatory reform in North America.

M. Karagianis: Well, you know, I think the minister, in first of all saying that I was characterizing the process as easy…. I don't believe I ever even inferred that it was easy. In fact, I would say that just the sheer volume of regulations that have been reduced says it is a huge and onerous process. Certainly for the professional public service…. I would never criticize them in any way, having in fact come from that sector at one point where I worked in the public service of this government of British Columbia. I have nothing but the greatest respect for the efforts there.

Certainly one would expect, given the vast number of regulations that have been reduced, that it was natural for me to ask questions about whether or not in any way it's left any gaps, whether there has had to be any revisiting of regulations or the impact on government liabilities and risks or government assets. Just the sheer volume alone — mind-boggling. One would expect there may have been some impact and, somewhere in there, perhaps a few regulations that might have had to be revisited.

Nonetheless, I would like to move on to track two, as the minister has called it, which is the new citizen-centred regulatory reform. This, from my reading of the service plan, would appear to be a process that's being implemented right across government, so it would seem to be of the scope and size and impact of the regulatory reform process that's already taken place. Perhaps the minister could elaborate a little bit more on what this process will be.

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Hon. R. Thorpe: Just before I answer the question on track two, citizen-centred, let me just note some comments from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business report of December 12, '05. It refers to British Columbia:

While still a young initiative, the regulatory reform program that started in B.C. in 2001 is arguably one of the most promising in Canadian history. It has all the essential ingredients for success: political leadership, public accountability and constraints on regulators. To date, regulatory requirements in the province have been cut by close to 40 percent without harming public health, safety or environmental objectives. A new target of no net increase in regulatory requirements through 2007 has been set and is being monitored.

Demonstrating that the impact of these

changes is being felt, independent businesses in B.C. overwhelmingly support — 95 percent — the initiative and B.C. businesses show the lowest dissatisfaction with increases in regulations across Canada.

How did this reform start? By the late 1990s, the province had a reputation for regulatory excess.

It goes on to say that they…. I won't quote some of what would be deemed by the member to be political statements. So an arm's-length, independent Canadian Federation of Independent Business is acknowledging leadership in British Columbia with respect to regulatory reform. Now we're going to move to track two.

Track two is about business process mapping in government. The goal is to save time for individuals when they're accessing services and time or steps for business and industry to comply with government regulations. It is designed to go across government. The member is absolutely correct that that is the intention.

We are going to start with individual ministries identifying what they believe are some mapping opportunities. We will then pull those together and see how we can work with cross-ministry initiatives to eventually save taxpayers and citizens of British Columbia time, save government time, but at the same time protecting the integrity of a regulatory environment. All of this will be done with the same intention to not compromise safety, health or environment.

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M. Karagianis: What is the time line for this process?

Hon. R. Thorpe: The projects will start this year. We will start with modest goals, as I think I mentioned — two or three cross-government initiatives. We will then build some momentum from there, working hand in hand with the ministries.

My ministry, led by my deputy minister and her senior staff, is responsible for coordinating this across government, for reporting back to cabinet on it on a very timely basis. I am assuming that we will be reporting back on a quarterly basis to British Columbians, as we do with our other regulatory reform. So it will be measured.

We will have the reductions, the time saved and the steps taken. For instance, if a particular process or a variety of processes in ministry X is taking 28 days today, and it's taking — I don't know — 54 hours or something, the goal would be to see how you map that process. Obviously, we would want to reduce the number of steps, reduce the amount of time, while retaining the integrity of the regulatory reform.

We believe very, very strongly that there is not the amount of coordination that there could be across government, so again, we are going to do this across government. It's all about saving time and saving steps, and those will be documented and posted on our website with our results as we move forward.

M. Karagianis: Is there a cost associated with this process, and what is that?

Hon. R. Thorpe: This will be done within the ministry's budget. This falls within the category, as we talked earlier today…. It's all captured within Small Business and Regulatory Reform at $3.593 million. As you can see, those numbers roll across for the three years in the service plan.

M. Karagianis: Certainly, we've seen that the cost here to government has jumped considerably from last year at $1.8 million up to $3.5 million. Are you anticipating an adjustment of similar nature next year in the budget? Would you anticipate that there will be new costs that are not planned for in this budget?

Hon. R. Thorpe: No, there will not be. As the first government in Canada, we do prepare three-year rolling budgets. We have put the numbers there, as the member may recall. This ministry in the past was Provincial Revenue. We have brought on new employees. We have assumed new responsibilities, but we know that we can achieve these goals within the $3.6 million that has been identified for Small Business and Regulatory Reform. If by chance one area within that group has higher costs than anticipated, we will be re-establishing our priorities. I can assure the member that our ministry will be coming in on budget in each one of its branches.

M. Karagianis: I'm sure the minister means exactly what he says, but when I look back to last fall's estimates, the cost of the round table was going to be part of the budget, and I've seen the budget almost double — as the minister clearly indicated in our earlier discussions, 12 new FTEs for the round table and significant costs to government for that. Is it anticipated that this process is going to entail more personnel either within this ministry or within other ministries that are obviously part of the process?

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Hon. R. Thorpe: We seem to be going back over ground that we covered in the first half-hour this morning. As I said, the Small Business and Regulatory Reform budget has increased $1.7 million. It is an addition of 12 new employees. This supports small business

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growth, advancing regulatory reform across government and leading and reviewing revisions of policy and legislation for B.C. Assessment. So this is not just about regulatory reform. This is not just about the Small Business Round Table. This is about a comprehensive approach in government and the addition of the resources to achieve it.

I can assure you, and my deputy has assured me, that we will achieve our goals within the budgets we've laid out here. Our staff have worked diligently at building these budgets. They know the work that's required. They know the time that's required, and as they have done in the past, they have always achieved their goals. I have every confidence that they will achieve their goals as we go forward.

M. Karagianis: Are all of the ministries going to be involved in this process, or is this going to be done slowly over the coming months and years? Are all ministries coming on track with this citizen-centred regulatory reform at the same time?

Hon. R. Thorpe: This is a governmentwide initiative, and it'll include all ministries within the government of British Columbia.

M. Karagianis: Before I move on to another area of discussion, I would like to go back to a question I asked this morning with regard to back tax collection for dental supply companies. I have now been assured that it is not inappropriate for me to bring this discussion up in estimates, so I will again ask the minister about this.

This dental supply company has now gone after its own customers for years' worth of back PST. Can the minister please make comment here on what this process is that government has undertaken with a dental supply firm?

Hon. R. Thorpe: I have no idea who's advising the member over there on her fiduciary responsibilities, but I'm well aware of my fiduciary responsibilities. I can tell you that I will not talk about private or individual small business or large business tax cases in this House or any other house. I treat that with the highest degree of confidentiality that I can put in discussions. This is not the place to have discussions on individual small businesses or other tax files with respect to this. I have no idea who the member is getting her advice from, but I would suggest that she get a second opinion.

M. Karagianis: The question to the minister is…. At this point I'm not actually even discussing an individual or personal tax case. What I am asking is whether or not this ministry has in fact gone and collected back taxes from supply companies. This is a dental supply company, and this company in correspondence to its customers mentions having, at this point, lost some kind of decision with the government on the back taxes. Has this government endeavoured to collect back PST from dental supply companies?

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Hon. R. Thorpe: I will attempt to be as detailed as I can be. I will attempt to be as measured as I can be. I will attempt to outline a process that takes place in British Columbia.

All of the tax statutes are available to all British Columbians. Our ministry introduced, a year ago January, a taxpayer fairness and service code. We worked very, very closely…. Let me say that this was developed in partnership with the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the British Columbia Chamber of Commerce, the Retail Merchants Association of British Columbia, the Retail Council of Canada, the Institute of Chartered Accountants of British Columbia and the Sales Tax Practitioners Liaison Committee. This was worked on and developed.

The purpose of this code is to ensure that taxpayers are aware of their rights in dealing with the ministry and the staff. It outlines standards and behaviours you can expect in dealing with our staff. Our goal is to strengthen our relationship with individual taxpayers, whether they be individuals or companies. It talks about the right to courtesy and respect. It talks about the right of privacy and confidentiality. It talks about the right to fair treatment. It talks about the right to obtain help. It talks about the right to complete, accurate, clear and timely information.

It talks about getting that information and written explanations for our decisions. It has the right to understand the business we conduct with you — the audits.

We have a sales tax act in British Columbia that lays out the requirements of individuals to pay, collect and remit sales tax. We also, through our information bulletins — in excess of a hundred different sales tax bulletins — make every effort to explain people's obligations to taxpayers and to purchasers. In fact, right now we are going through a whole process to update those, to work with different partners. It doesn't matter what business they're in. We're working with partners so that…. If it happens to do with auto dealers, the auto dealers wou