Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session Number 52 = ====== ======== =========== ===== "" - VERBATIM REPORT Thursday, April 12, 1973 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL

April 12, 1973 The House met at 3:00. Mr. Speaker in the""1:hair. Tape No. 116 7 NOTICES OF MOTION: . NM - 1 HON. T. A. HICk..''1AN I MI:lISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the honourable Minister of Health, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Hospitals Act, 1971." On behalf of the Minister of Mines and Energy, a Bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt An Agreement Made Between The Government And Kennco Exploration Canada Limited." The minister of Tourism? MR. HICKM.A.N: K-e-n-n-c-o. AN HON. MEMBER: Kaleidoscope. MR.

RICIQ1A.~: Kaleidoscope On behalf of the Minister of Tourism, a Bill, "An Act Respecting Historic Objects, Sites and Records." On behalf of mysP.1 f, ~ J\ill, "An Act Further To , ....... ~ '!'1-,,. Criminal Injuries Compensation Act," MR. SPEAKER: Are there any further notices of motion? MR. WM. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, this is as good a place as any to make this motion. I move that the House when it does rise today, stand adjourned until tomorrow at 10:00 A.M., tomorrow Friday, AN RON. MEMBER: Are we meeting tonight? MR. MARSHALL: We are going tonight yes, but we come back tomorrow morning. MR.

SPEAKER : It is moved and second that the House at its rising do adjourn until tomorrow, Friday at 10:00 A.M. Carried. QUESTIO~S: MR. 'SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Social Services. MR. A. J. '!-ru'RP.!!_Y, Minister of Social Services: ~r. Speaker, I have the answer to question No. 7, on the Order Paper of February 8, 1973,in answer to a question bv the honourable member for Bell Island. Also to correct an answer - the question asked actually was a

schedule showing for each electoral .. 4435

April 12, 1973 Tape No. 1167 NM - 2 MR. MURPHY: distrRt the cost to the government for social assistance during February 1972. In my department they submitted February 1973,so I have the corrected one for February 1972. We have February 1973,already tabled in error. So February 1972 is now being tabled to correct the error made. There is a lot of difference in them,but I will not repeat it. AN HON. MDIBER: Inaudible, MR. MURPHY: No, the Bell Island one was in 1972, it was not in 1973. MR. ~'EARY": St. John's South. MR. MURPHY: St.

John's South, that is the only one, North or South, If I had the question I might repeat it for the informatjon of the House. ! hope copies de go upet~irs so the press c3n aee ona and inform the people of the province. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. S. NEA~Y: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honourable Minister of Finance. Is the minister going to apologize to "The Daily News,'' for the vicious attack made on "The Daily News" in this Rouse the day before yesterday? HON. J.C. CROSBIE, Minister of Finance: ~r.

Speaker, I am glad to have this opportunity" to speak on this matter and I thank the honourable gentleman for bringing it up. I thought if I waited long enough he probably would. No, Mr. Speaker, no there will be no apology because no apology is deserved. All that happened is that "The Daily News" is blaming this improper and. fa 0 lse story on "The Canadian Press." 'When "The Daily News" printed the story last !-fonday they did not attribute it to "The Ca!ladian i>ress." There was no "Canadian Press" by-line,_.hich there should have been had it been from "The Canadian 4436

April 12, 1973 Tape No. 1167 NM 3 MR. CROSBIE: Press~ - they were wrong to use that story without attributing it to•~anadian Press!' But I will say that I thought their treatment of it on Tuesday,when they corrected the story, was exemplary because it had just about the sam~ coveraQe as thP "l\istal,.en story on "oncay. While not apologizing to "The Daily News" I will -transfer my comments of last Tuesday from "The Daily Ne-;,,,s" to "The Canadian Press" and that should satisfy the honourable gentleman in question. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, "1111 the honourable minister repeat outside the House what he said in the House? Or is he using the protection of the House? MR. CROSBIE: I have no objection,if the honourable gentleman will assure me there will be some consequence to it. MR. E. M. ROBERTS, Leader of the Opposition: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Manpower, etc., is he yet in a position to say anything at all about the situation in the strike in Labrador West,in Labrador City? HON. G.

DAWE, Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations: Not at this time, I have been in touch with the parties but it is a very precarious situation and I do not think I should comment on it. ~- ROBERTS: Supplementary, the strike is still on,is it? 1800 men or whatever in the labour force are still out of work? MR. DAWE: Right. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Labrador North. MR. M. \.:OODWARD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of ~ines and Energy who is not in his seat today.

Maybe I should direct it to th"e senior minister in that group of three, the Minister of Finance, regarding the headlines in "The Evening Telegram," to iay, ''The uranium enrichment plant will not be built in ~le\lfoundland," I wonder if the minister can tell the House if BRINCO, the people that I feel have some expertise and not necessary the !-!inister of Energy, ~!r. MacDonald, 4437

April 12, 1973 '!'ape No. 1167 NM - 4 MR. WOODWARD: the federal minister·, if the minister can tell the House if BRI~CO has said that there is not sufficient power in Labrador -with the development of the Upper Churchill and the Lower Churchill to support a uranium enrichment plant? -Have the BRINCO reople assured the province that this is the case? MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Soeaker, first the Minister of Mines and Energy, or whatever the right title is,of Canada,of course,is expressing an opinion of his own in that connection and tne problem is not really whether there is sufficient power available, it is the question,as I understand it, if you have a uranium enrichment plant, there is no way in which you can take ·a risk that it will not have power. In other words,it must always have power supplied to it.

If it be in a location where there would be any chance of power failure, say transmission lines going down or power failure so that it did not have available to it alternative power, it cannot be put in that position. Now BRINCO have not said that if there is a uranium enrichment plant it would not be built in Newfoundland and Labrador. In fact if it ·.,1ere to use power from the Lower Churchill, we would certainly have something to say about that. They have not indicated that it would not b~ built in Labrador. No one knows whether or not there will be such a plant built.

BRINCO are still working on the feasibility study on that. They cannot build a uranium enrichment plant in any event unless the Gov~rnment of Canada give them the approval to do that, because it involves obtaining information from the United States Government on the technology, The Government of Canada, as far as I know,have not given .them the go-ahead but BRINCO are still working on this project, still doing feasibility studies. They have not said it would not be in Newfoundland and Labrador.

They have indicated that this is the problem, that it maybe that other sites would be more advantageous because you have to have 4438 J

April 12, 1973 Tape No. 116 7 NM - 5 $.. CROSBIE: power~oming to the plant from several different . sources so you would be sure they all would not be down at the same time. So the.re i~ no indication whether it would absolutely not be in Labrador ti it ever did go ahead. In fact if it had to use our power,we would certainly have something to say about :i.t. MR. WOODWARD: Supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, can the illini1;1ter inform the House, I asked the Premier the other day, if there are any negotiations ts.king place 4439

April 12, 1973 Tape 1168 IB-1 . within the province and BRrlCO or th-e federal government concerning an uranium enrichment plant for the province or in Labrador. MR. CROSBIE: There have been - I would not call it negotiations, Mr. Speaker, between us but we discussed this project of.course with BRINCO when v.e first assumed office and it has been discussed with them on several occasions. It is not a question of negotiations because they just do not know whether there is going to be such a project or not nor have the-re been any negotiations between us and the Government of Canada.

It 1.s between BRINCO and the Government of Canada that any negotiations have been. There have been discussions but not negotiations. There -is nothing to negotiate yet. MR. woom,ARD: A supplementary question, ~r. Speaker. Maybe it is unfair. Would the government of the day encourage such a development or such a plant in the province? ~- CROSBIE: Well on that of course we would have to decide when we had the particulars of what em?loyment it would give, how much permanent employment there would be and what it would mean it would depend on all those factors.

We know that there will be quite a few construction jobs. We know that it takes a lc,t of !)ower. So, we would have to see whether that would be more desirable than some other possible development. There is just not enough known about it as this stage. r~rtainly if our power -.rere to be used ano this plant should go in Labrador we are not goin8 t,, give thel'l our oower to use in some other Province for a urc>..nit!l!l enrichment Plant. MR. NEARY: ~r. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Yinister of ~unicipal Affairs who is also responsible for the lack of housing in this province.

Would the minister inform the House - MR. SPEAKEP:. If the honourahle member will permit. He knows full well the framing of a question is not to enter into debate nor is the ouestion to he provocative ~s the frame of that particular 4440

April 12, 1973 Tape 1168 IB-2 question was. I am sure that the honourable member will address the honourable minister in the manner to which his office is entitled. MR. NE.A.PY: Thank you, ?-!r. Speaker, I would like the honourable minister to inform the P.ouse if there is any special reason why housing starts in February of this year as compared to February of 1972 showed a substantial decrease, if there is any specific reason for this. HON. H.A. COLLINS: (YINISTER OF'ML"N"ICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING): Mr. Speaker, last year the housing starts in the province were the highest around February.

The reason th.at they were _down at the beginning of this year is because there is no serviced land. I am afraid the honourable member will have to look at someone else to find the blame for that. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. What steps is the minister taking or his department taking to ~rovide serviced land for people especially in the St. John's area? MR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, as I have indicated to the House on several occasions,by the beginning of the construction season, looking at June, there will be adequate serviced land in the city,in the ~ount Pearl and New Town area .and also in the Virginia Waters and various other smaller developments and hopefully in the major urban centers across the province. MR. NEARY: A supplementary qceStion, ~r. Speaker. Could the honourable minister indicate when the serviced lots in the New Town will go on sale? HR. COLLINS: ·That is difficult to say, ~r. Sneaker. I would not want to set a date but as I said,hopefully by June month. NR.

NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Will the serviced lots in the New Town be sold to contractors or to individuals? ~. COLLIXS: They will he block to block made available to contractors t 4441

A?ril 12, 1973 Tape 1168 and the private individual will also have an opnortunity to buy them, P.R. NEARY: Another supplementary question to the honourable minister ·. Could the honourable minister inform the House as to the average cost of these serviced lots in the New Town area? MR. COLLINS: That is difficult to say, Mr, Spraker, because - AN HO~O'CflABLE !-'P~ER: Take a stab at it. MR. COLLINS: No, I do not want to take a stab at it because I do not want to build up people's hopes. They have gone ~hrough a neriod of twenty-three years of that.

I would want to wait until the contractors prices are in and we will see exactly what the price is on it. !-'R. WOODWARn: Mr. Sneaker, I would like to direct a question to the ~inister of ~unicipal Affairs and Housing. Could he inform the House if tende~s have been called for the connection of the water supply in Happy Valley to the base water supply, if tilat contract has been called or when it will be called? MP. COLLI!-,S: Mr. Speaker, the tenders have not been called. IB-3 Financing hes been arranged for it.

Whether the Town of Happy Valley will be connected to the M.O.T. system or USdf or whatever that has not been decided yet. Just as soon as the council has made a decision as a result of their negotiations with the people in Ottawa, we will be catling tenders. Financing is ready for it. ~: SPEAKER: Before going further,it has been brought to ~y attention that we have in the galleries today seventeen children from A.L. Bristol School at Argentia,with their teacher ~iss Peggy Johnson. We also have in the galleries today a lon~-tenn resident of the historic dist 0 rict of Port au Port, ~!r. Patrick Gushue.

It is not very often that we get vistors from the West Coast and I would like to welcome him and the children to the 4442 J

April 12, 1973 ,Tape 1168 galleries today as well as all other distinguished visitors. -~ IB-4 I trust that your visit here will be interesting and informative. HON. F. D. MOORES: (PRNIER) : On a minor poil,t of order, !-!'r. Speaker, and it is a very minor point of order, It is a matter of welcoming school children to the House, Sir.

When Your Honour is welcoming them, I very respectfully suggest that he call them young people or young men and women tather than children because the age group for children seems to be lowered to such a degree that I do not think that they would be allowed in the House unless they were members. So I would suggest that for the future, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: I will take the appropriate action in the future. EON. DR. T.C. FARRELL: (MI"'.'l'ISTER OF TRANSPORT.A.TIO~ AND cm~~ICATio~:s): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to inform the House that we have some other distinquished visitors, t~e mayor and three of his council from the Community of Pasadena on the West Coast. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: It is a day for the West Coast. On motion that the House go into Committee of the Hhole on Supply. ~r. Speaker left the Chair. !-IR. ClTAIR~Wl: If 'the honourable memben-woulc permit: The last day the committee stayed until approximately four minutes past six. The last thing that was done was that 620-04 was carried. MR. F. ROWE: Was it not on Tuesday evening when we were considering this particular estimate?

It was not after six o'clock at all, ?-!R. CHAH''"k\1:It was prohably at eleven o'clock or the last day that we were involved ~•ith Cor:l'littee of Suor,ly. The last item that was carried was 620-04 and the corr.rnittee sat a little longer than usual in order to accommodate one of the members. 4443

April 12, 1973 Tape 1168 Total subhead 620- Education. !-'R. NEARY: Hr. Chairman, I would like to have a go because I do not recall, ~r. Chairman, with all due respect,passing IB-5 that particular subhead the other night. There must be a mis­ tmderstanding because we were debating it and there were a few other things that my colleague wanted to say on it. The minister himse.lf I t!.ink was answering some questions that we had put to him but nevertheless we can still do it llllder this subhead, Sir. HON. W.W. ¥.ARSHALL: (¥INISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO): Mr. qtairman ; I can refresh the minds of the committee itself.

I cannot refresh the committee but the mi_nd of the 'committee.Last Tuesday night we sat beyond eleven o'clock. We did call it eleven. The honourable Leader of the Op~osition was soeaking and it was not specifically called eleven,so we could oass this vote and it was oassed. If memory serves me correctly, Mr. Chairman, because I always keer a fond eye on the honourable the member for Bell Island, I believe that he did skip out three minutes before eleven. I saw him at the elevator, he may not have been here. I do not think that he was here when this particular vote was passed 1but it was passed. MR. NEARY: Hr.

Chairman, that is possible. After a long day I was probably bushed and wanted to catch the elevator,but now I have my batteries recharged, Si-r, and I ara all set 9 rearing to go again. Actually, ~r. Chairman, I will be very brief. I merel~ wanted to endorse the idea put forward by the ~~nister of Education the other night to ~aximize the use of the College of Trades and Technology by introducing the tri-semester system. I would like to suggest to the minister that he also try this in the vocational schools. '1-fF. CHAIR~AN: If the honourable memher will permit.

I do believe the ruling that was made as far as the sneaking on the subhead is concerned was from the honourable the Leader of the Opnosition who moved an amendment to the subhead,which moved a reduction in 4444

April 12, 1973 Tape 1168 · the amount to be voted. There is no provision in the ruling -~ for unlimited debate on subheads. The honourable member~ '-.'hile not wanting to antici?ate his debate, as he and I have discussed on numerous occasions, I do believe that he is now entering into a discussion similiar to subhead 620-04,and subhead 620-04 has ~B-6 · already been carried. So the honourable member will have to deal specifically with a matter,dealing «ith it arithmetically or otherwi~e subhead 620,c11d not to get into matters which have already been passed upon. 'MR. NEARY: ~r.

Chaiman, maybe we can pass this subhead and I will have a go on it under vocational training. I can say the same thing there, l-!R. F. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, to be quite frank with you, Sir, I was not under the impression that this particular subhead 620--04 had in fact passed. I might run into the same difficulty as my colleague, the member for Bell Island here. Sir, I had to rise on this particular occasion in order to. speak against the amount of this particular subhead,in view of the need for a polytechnical institute in this province.

Sir, I have mentioned on a number of occasions that some of the votes in this total education vote represent a policy of retrenchment. ~. CHAifil'.A.~: If the honourable member will permit again. The time for discussion of this matter was under 620-04. Subhead 620-04 was carried and subhead 620-07 was carried. The House will not entertain a motion for an expenditure of mr,ney. The honourable member also has the Budget Debate as well as many other ways of making his point a~d will not be permitted to debate subhead 620. '1-fR • 'F. ROWE : ~r. Chairman, am I not allo~ed to speak to the amount of the subhead?

Is that the ruling? I am speaking against the amount of the subhead here. MR. CHAIF~AN: The honourable member's debate should have been made 4445

April 12, 1973 Tape 1168 under 620-04 or 620-07. The hono~rable ~ember for St. Barbe North has shown extreme disrespec t for the Chair ~ith a gesture 'of disgust or othet"t ~ise . While ·it is not verbal, it is one of the most rePrehensihle acts that has gone on in this Bouse in this session and the fhair certainly does not look upon it with favor. The honourable member has a right to dispute the Chair's rulin g but he does not have the right to make motions which are disgusting. ~- l'. ROWE: With all due respect, I did ask the Chair if in fact I l!l--7 4446 I • ! I ! ..

April.12, 1973 Tape no. 1169 Page · 1 - MRW could debate the amount of the subhead. I was told that I was not allowed to debate the amount of the subhead, That is why I was showing my disgust, Sir. MR. ROBERTS: Mr, Chairman, did I hear a ruling that we could not debate - we have not debated the amount of the subhead. We have debated and the co=ittee have carried $3.2 million in 04 and $80,000 in 07 but there are two other amounts, Sir, which have not been discussed at all because the total we are voting here is only $3.19 million. Why?

Because there are Appropriation.s­ in-Aid and because there are expenses voted in other departments. That is why the s·ubhead total is carried, Did I hear Your Honour say that it is not in order to debate the total amount that the minister proposes to spend on the College of Trades and Technology? Surely I did not hear that, Sir. MR. CROSBIE: The amount has already been voted for the College of Trades and Technology. Grants-in-Aid, $3,200,000. MR, ROBERTS: No, Sir! No, Sir! MR. CROSBIE: Yes, 620, The amounts have already been voted. Grants­ in-Aid, ~3,200,000; Furnishings and Equipment, $80,000.

These amounts have already been voted. They have already been debated in detail over and over again, therefore, repetition of all that debate on the subhead is ultra vires. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, we have not - we are being asked to vote the total of subhead 620, $3.19 million. The reason .by that total is different, of course, as Your Honour would point out,is that there are Appropriations-in-Aid and there are expenses voted in other departments. Sir, I submit that we have not - that is why the total is called.

His Honour the other _evening recessed the co=ittee while he consulted with his officials, took counsel and came back and concurred with the statement that in this co=ittee traditionally over the years the subhead total has been called and has been voted upon. 4447

April 12, 1973 Tap~ no. 1169 Page 2 Indeed a motion to reduce it was in order, I am quite prepared to move we can debate the subhead total because it has not been passed. We cannot under the subhead total, as Your Honour told us the other evening, talk,i,e,, about the denominational/educational committee on the subhead total of the College of Trades and Technology but we can talk about the College of Trades and Technology on the subhead total which has not yet been voted. I submit that that is the correct view, Sir. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, on that point, the sub-total does not have to be voted.

It is only in the estimates as a matter of convenience to show what the total is under that subhead once you had deducted any Appropriations-in-Aid that relate to it, The House in Co111111ittee of Supply vote the estimates~ The estimates for the money needed on 620-04 Grants-in-Aid is $3,200,000; 07, $80,000 for Furnishings and Equipment.

There happens to be an Appropriations-in-Aid as a convenience to show how much the cost is,net, There is a total of a subhead, The subhead does not need to be voted, If the honourable gentlemen are going to continue the attempt to debate a subhead which has already been voted on, then l submit that the committee should not deal with the sub-totals at all or call the~ at all. MR, ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, Your Honour made a ruling on this the other evening. The hon. Minister of Finance is challenging Your ruling. As Your Honour has told us on a number of occasions,there is a procedure.

I understood Your Honour's ruling to be quite clear and quite straightforward. Your .Honour indeed took time to consider the ruling and Your Honour did say that in Your Honour's view it may have been a little illogical but on the precedents of this House it was well-founded. Surely we are following Your Honour's ruling. If the Minister of Finance, should wish to appeal it he has the same right as does any other me~~er. 4448

April 12, 1973 Tape no. 1169 Page 3 MR. OTTE~'HEDiER: It would seem to me,and there are a lot of sub-totals coming up, that one of the ·points the Minister of Finance suggested, in his opinion, was that these sub-totals need not be called. I would suggest perhaps that the Chair could consider that particular question. If they should be called, obviously they are called and what can be debated o~ them or cannot obviously is a matter for the Chair to rule. What I am asking is that the Chair should perhaps consider the question raised by the Minister of Finance,whether in fact it is necessary to call them or not.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, that is an incredible suggestion. These subhead totals, Your Honour - I have been in the House now six or seven sessions and they have always been called on estimates. Your Honour has been having them called. We have been seven or eight sittings now on estimates. · It would be quite out of order not to have them. They have been called for years. One cannot change the rules in that way. Did the Minister of Justice say something? I am sorry. Mr. Chairman, they have been debated. I will move that the vote be reduced by one dollar. That was in order the other night.

That is a debatable motion. I move that subhead total 620 be reduced from $3.19 million to $3.189,999. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. I move that this motion is entirely out of order. There is no need. This sub-total can neither be reduced nor increased. A sub-total is just an addition. The money has already been voted. The Leader of the Opposition's opportunity to reduce the vote under 620 has gone. The money has already been voted by the House. To suggest that he can now vote to reduce the sub-total is just ludicrous.· Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I suggest that this be ruled out of order.

It is senseless. With respect to the rest of these arguments th,\t sub-totals have been called in the c~'T'lllittee before,that has just merely been a convenience to show what 4449

, . April 12, 1973 Tape no. 1169 Page 4 -~ the sub-total is. If it is now going to be abused and if members of the opposition are going to attempt to debate on the sub-totals ·as well as on all the other individual items, then this is an abuse which might as well cease n~J. We do not need the sub-totals. They do not need to be ea.Lled, I will ask Your Honour to make a ruling on this because this iP. obstructionism of the worst sort. MR. ROBERTS: His Honour ruled the other evening on that. MR. CROSBIE: Well we need to look at it again. Will we wait ' for the ruling or- not? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The ruling a couple of evenings ago was one the Chair said at that time that it was not particularly proud of, The whole matter is predicated on whether or not subheads have to be voted, That matter was not dealt with, The point of order raised by the hon. Minister of Finance is one which in effect deals with the problem cf ._het.'i.er or not subheads have to be voted.

Arithmetically it does not make sense that if the committee vote for expenditures of money which total to "x" number of dollars and for convenience sake it is totalled and a tradition has arisen, shall the subhead carry, that is in the opinion of the Chair.a tradition of convenience and should not open up all the subheads above for extended debate. If honourable members have argUI:1ents to make, they should be made on the subhead. They should be made on the subheads before the total is carried, MR. ROBERTS: Sir, there is no other place where we can talk about Appropriations-in-Aid.

This has been the tradition of this House I submit as far back as one can go but certainly six or seven years. Not only that they are called but the clerk says, "carried." Is Your Honour suggesting that we have been acting in this House improperly for the past twenty,'thirty,forty, fifty or sixty years? I would submit, Mr. Chairma:i, 4450

April 12, 1973 Tape no. 1169 Page 5 that if that be Your Honour's ruling, it is not one to be made without consultation with Your Honour's officials and reference to the books. This changes the rule of the whole game in midstream. If we do not need sub-totals why do we need total!>? Why then does the Co=ittee of Supply report to Committee of the Whole? Why then do we have appropriation bills which are debatable? There are many stages in the appropriation procedure. It is encrusted with tradition.

According to the rules and our precedents,this motion was in order the other evening, I submit it is equally in order right now • . If Your Honour wis1:. to reconsider the matter, then I would suggest that we be allowed some time to research this point because it is a very significant and substantial point. One cannot,just cannot brush aside Your Honour, with all due respect, what Your Honour has done and what the gentlemen sitting before you have done, Sir. If the precedents and the practice of this House are to be cast aside like that Your Honour,then we have coming to a pretty pass indeed.

If Your Honour wish, to reconsider the ruling,that is perfectly in order. I would suggest it be researched and that we all be allowed to present a detailed procedural argument. It is a very significant point. MR. CHAIRMAN: It is necessary to deal with this matter expeditiously. The ruling is that sub-totals are not debatable other than if there is a mistake in calculation on them. MR. ROBERTS: Will Your Honour hold to His ruling on this; want no further argument on it? Your Honour will entertain no argument?

Then, Sir, with the greatest of respect and with the greatest of regret I giYe notice that I must at the earliest opportunity move a motion of censure against Your Honour for violating ·the tradition and precedents of this House, Sir_, I. do so with far more regret than you will ever knOW', MR. CROSBIE: This is the most unheard of piece of affront that has ever been witnessed in this House of Assembly. If the honourable 4451 .:

April 12, _1973 Tape no. 1169 Page 6 gentleman does not like Your Honour's ruling, then the procedure iS to appeal the ruling. To threaten the Chairman of this committee, that the honourable gentleman is going to move a motion of censure on him,is unheard of in any parliament of the world. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I made no threats. I gave a notice of motion. It was no threat. There is no point in appealing the ruling. I think that that is just a waste of time. I am not looking forward to the debate on a censure motion. I believe it should be dealt with expeditiously.

It is only the second time to my knowledge that there has ever been a censure motion. The other one was moved by the hon. gentleman from St. John's West a couple of years ago. I really feel that the traditions of this House have been violated this day and unnecessarily and I submit improperly and that is why I am driven to the expediency of giving notice of a motion of censure. I only wish that the Speaker ·could be back to hear it. On motion that the committee rise report having passed some items of current expenditure under Heading VI - Education and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair.

On motion report received and adopted. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, in view of the proceedings I move that the House do not adjourn at eleven o'clock today. MR. SPEAKER: o'clock today. It is moved that the House do not adjourn at eleven The motion is not debatable. Those in favour "aye.•• Contrary ''.nay." Carried. On motion that the House go into Collllllittee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. Shall 621-01, carry? Carried. _MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Chairman. What do you mean c:irried. Are we just going to ram the estimates through the Cor:unittee?

If the - hon. minister of Finance does not want to debate L~e items of the estimates, let him go down to his office somewhere or buy earplugs, Sir. We are discussing 4452

April· 12, 1973 Tape no. 1169 Page 7 here $600 million of the taxpayers I moµey. Go and buy a pair o.f ear­ plugs. · Hr• Chairman, on the D!<ltter of vocational training, Sir, I would like for the Minister of Education to consider introducing the tri-semester system in the vocational and training $chools across this province. We endorsed the idea. Sir, of the tri-semester system and the minister indi.cated the otfier day when we were discussing another heading, the College of Trades and Technology, that it was going to be · implemented over there -,I think this September coming or is it this June?. Is it June or September? MR. OTTENEHIMER: Late in June. 4453

April 12, 1973 Tape 1170 PK - 1 That is the period for the third semester. :MR. NE.ARY: Well we.endorsed that, Mr. Chairman, and I commend the idea also to the minister to try it in the Vocational Training Schools . because the trend today, Sir, is towards technical and vocational training. I would also reco=end to the minister, Sir, that it be two semesters in,and one out. That is. Mr. Chairman, that work will be organized by the schools in co-operation with Canada Manpower. I personally believe, Sir, that this-would be a realistic dimension in training our young people for employment in this province.

Too often, Mr. Speaker, two or three years of training in the District Vocational Schools where you just give the students straight theory is not really of great use to the graduates, }!r. Chairman, or of less use to the employer when they go to look for work. I would say that it probably takes a considerable period of time,even after the graduates find work, Sir, to adjust themselves to the jobsthat they find whether it be in their train or not. }!r. Chairman, as honourable mer:i.bers know., today students attending the vocational training schools are getting very generous assistance from Canada ~~npower.

Well now, Sir, if the minister accept my idea of adopting the tri-semester system in the vocational training schools - Mr. Chairman, could I have a little quiet - MR. OTTE~"P'.EI~R: It is on your side. :MR. NEARY'. If the minister accept my proposal, Sir, Mr. Chairman, I can hardly hear my~elf talking • . !-'R. OTIFXP.F.I~'ER: It is on your side. We do not know what it is. ~. RF.ARY: Well. will the House Leader call his members back to that side of the Rouse, Sir, so we can ~ave a little quiet over here. Now they are over here causing trouble. It is bad enough to have them over there causing trouble, }!r.

Chairman, Ret the Sergeant-at-Arms to bring the members back where they belong,on the other side of the House. Mr. Chairman, if the }'inister of Education accept my proposal 4454

April 12, 1973 Tape 1170 PK - 2 to_ introduce the tri-sernester system in the vocational training schools where students are already getting generous }~npower allowances, Sir, (not in all cases though because there are some students who are getting the provincial allo~ance,~hich is only $15. a week) if my recommendation be adopted,then I think that when these ·students go out to work, when the instructors at the vocational training schools,working with Canada Manpower,find suitabl 1~ employment or on the job training for these students,that they be paid a realistic wage, Sir, that they not be turfed out of the school one semester and just work for very low wages or work for the minimum wage.

If the minister should see any merit in this then I would like to see the students get on the job training, Sir, at a realistic wage. There is a great opportunity to do that today, Mr. Chairman, because the federal government, Canada Y.anpower,does have a very good on the job training prograJF.1e. So I would think that most of the students could probably qualify for on the job training under the federal m~npo~er progra!:!w.e, Sir. This would not only, ~r.

Chair.::ian, give the students valuable experience and on the job training that they need but it would also Sir, provide the students with enough revenue to be able to continue their education, not only to continue their education, but they would probably have a little bit of pocket money left over. It would also, Mr. Chairman, solve the problem that the ~~nister of !1anpower and Industrial Relations ran up against this year when it was discovered that there had only been a handful of applications to C?aada ~2npower for on- the job training progra"::z::e5 here in ~,ewfoundland.

The minister who I pres=e is speaking for ·the gavern:::ent askad for an extension of the on the job training period, I thi:-1.k it Kas up to the end of February, and the Government of Canada granted an extension and I think some more applications ca~e in but not enough, Sir. The employers in Newfoundland, in ~y opinion, did not take full advantage of the on 4455

April 12, 1973 Tape 1170 . PK - 3 the job training programme. So, in my opinion, Sir, this would be an excellent opportunity to really take advantage of the on the job training here in Newfoundland by having two semesters in, one out?with the students doing on the job training. This would also, ~r. Chairman, put a substantial amount of money in circulation in this province. So there are thre'~ reasons for doing it, Sir,

(1) It would give the student the on the job training, the experience that he needs.

(2) It would give the student revenue to be able to continue .his training uninterrupted in a reasonable manner.

(3) It would also put a fair amount of ~oney in circulation in Newfoundland. Now, Mr, Chairman, before I take my' seat I want to once again plead with the ~'inister of Education not to allow our vocational training progra=e in this province, Sir, to sink into the quagn,ire of the unrealistic dream-worla of the academics. At least, ~r. Chairman, we have in ~ur technical college and in the vocational trs.ining setup that we have, Sir, a realistic, reasonable effort, in my opinion, to prepare our young pepple for employment in today's technological world. I hope, Sir_ AN P.ON. !-'E'{BF.R: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: I beg your pardon? AN HON. !-P.'J--!BFR: Hay I interrupt? 'HR. NF.ARY: ~,o, Mr. Chairr.:an, the honourable minister can speak on this anytime he wants too. I hope,_ Sir, that the minister will allo\l a coll!l!lon sense attit11de to continue in this field.

As I suggested to the honourable ~inister the other night, Sir, that he not allow our vocational training progra::,.~e to fall into the hands of the acadenics but that business, industry and labour becor::e !:'ore actively involved, Sir, and that if the minist'er intends to expand this progral':!:'.e, which I have no doubt he will in the future,and broaden the progranme, Sir, then I would say that it is rnost'essential to have the people who are directly concerned in employing the graduates of these - how ~any 4456

April 12, 1073 Taoe 1170 PK - 4 school do we have now, fourteen or fifteen schools? MR. OTTF'.'-:-REim:R : Fourteen schools, three opening in September. HR, NEARY: Fourteen schools, three opening in September, I was going to ask the minister that. HON. 'f-'ITI'BERS: Inaudible. }ffi. NEARY: It is very annoying, it is awfully ignorant, Sir, and very annoying to have other conversations going 01, in the Rouse when a member is trying to speak. It is pure,unadulterated ignorance, Si~ Your Honour should put a stop to it. Mr. Chairman, are we going to enforce the rules of the House? AN RO~l. ~ER: Inaudible. MR.

NEAP.Y: I better repeat what I have siid again, Sir, because - }']l. CP.AI~·Wl: The honourable the member for Bell Island has a right to be heard in silence. MR. NF..ARY: Thank you, Your Eonour. Now, Mr. Chairman, I was suggesting to the Minister of Finance down there that when he is expanding and broadening the vocational and technical training progra=es in this province that it would be a very great mistake indeed not to include business industry and labour because after dll, ~tr.

Chairman, when the graduates go out into the world they have to go to work somewhere and nine chances out of ten they will be joining labour unions and they will becom~ involved in what is commonly known as the "rat race", Sir • . So I think it is oost important that the people who are directly concerned,that have to hi£e these yotmg people and look after them while they are working,probably for th~ rest of their lives, Sir, be involved and that the minister take advantage of their know-how, their expertise and their experience. ~ow, ~r.

Chairman, I think the minister already indicated there are three new vocational training schools that ~ave not been opened yet. Have they been partly opened? Are they open at all? Is there any activity ~oin~ on at all? Well perhaps the minister can tell us, ~r. ChaiIT.tan. wh~n he stands to speak, Sir, what is happening to these vocational schools. Fow many do we have operating now? How f\6 4457

April 12, 1973 Tape 1170 PK - 5 many will be operating this September coming? And what the a~ticipated enrollment will be in these schools? I would also like for the minister to inform the House if all the cheques have been mailed out yet to the instructors in the vocational schools,as a result of the decision of the Board of Arbitr~tion that handed down this ruling recently that the ~~nister of Finance told us about in the Rouse the C'.'ther day? MR. CROSBIE: The Department of Education infoI'I!ls me that they will be sent out today or tomorrow. MR. NEARY: Haw! F.aw! Yr.

Chairman, I hit the nail right on the head, A good question today. But anyway I will give the Minister of Education the floor now, Sir, and see what he has to say about vocational training. 1-'R . OTIP.TP.F:I:~R: ?fr. Chairman, under this vote for vocational training it included of course the fourteen presently existing and functioning. operating district vocationa~ schools and the three which will be opening in September and they are of course at Happy Valley, Baie Verte and St. Anthony. They will be in fact opening in September. I would think that each of them should have an average of around 200 students.

It may be that during the first few months that they may not reach a full connlement but certainly after a few months in operation I would expect they would average 200 and it may well be that at start up they will have about 200 students. The money being asked for here is, of course, to provide for instruction. I can give the committee some perhaps interesting figures. These students of course in the various vocational institutes are basically in two divisions, those who are ~!anpower students and whose instruction is done in co-operation with the federal government.

Cf course, the federal financial . imput and provinci•al students who are outside of the a~~it of the ~anpower programme, most of those would be courses beyond a year or two or three 1ear courses. The total nUl!lber of students,including adult work and a small number ir, crafts work, the vast majority in the various vocational 4458

April 12, 1973 Tape 1170 PK - 6 prograr.mies is 4,900. That is broken -down into 2,700 ¥4npowe~ and 1,725 provincial students. The honourable the member for Bell Island referred to the tri-se~ester system and certainly it is our intention to maximize the use of facilities, All of these schools,vocational and others, cost a lot of money, especially vocational ones,of course.because of the equipQert in there and it certainly would be bad economics and bad educational policy if they are not used to the utmost of their ability.

I would hope that we will be able to have all these facilities in use throughout the year,as soon as possible. The honourable gentleman also referred to the need that these programmes and courses be as realistic and practical as possible and referred to the possibility of an academic quagmire, Certainly it is not our intention to allow that to happen.

Twill say that the principals at the various vocational schools, the Director of Vocational and Technical Education and with his counterpart the presid~nts and staff of the two colleges are in very close contact with industry and indeed with unions too on these matters. There is a very large use now, of course, of what could be referred to as on the job training or sandwich courses where people are in for a period of months and out in industry for a period of months and there are some cases where they are in for one year and out for one year.

This is done to a very large extent now where there is praLtical on the job training during their course of instruction.• In some areas this is not used as much as it should be and of course part of the difficulty,as was referred to,is that one has to get industry to take the people in and to participate in this sandwich progr=e or apprenticeship training prograr..me. But certainly this approach is used to a very great extent and 4459

April 12, 1973 Tape No. 1171 NM - 1 MR. OTIE~'HEIMER: -I"Vould certainlY. hope,in working with the people i=ediGtely responsible for these programmes, will do everythinb ~ossible to generalize it further. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the minister if there is any follow-up done to see what happens to the graduates after? Do , they find jobs? Are the vocational schools having a good record? Is there a good track record, Sir and do the students manage to find jobs in Newfoundland o~ do they have to emigrate to the Mainland to find employment?

Does the minister have any statistics at all available to show us 1ust what kind of record, how the performance is in the vocational schools? MR. OTIE"SHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I could certainly get a specific statistical breakdown but the evidence is very, very good for employment opportunities for people who complete courses in the vocational schools, There is a very, very good record of employment. I would rather not quote a percentage unless I am sure of it but I certainly can get it. MR. NEARY: I appreciate that Mr.

Chairman.That is very good news indeed It just goes to show that the Liberal programme, the former Liberal Administration programme for setting up vocational schools in Newfoundland was correct. It was a correct one, no criticism of it, Sir. A.~ HON. MDIBER: Do not refer to the past. MR. NEA.~Y: No, that is right, Mr. Chairman. I look to the future myself but once in a while you know we get pr~voked into referring to the past. Sir, I think it has been four or five or six years now aince the provincial allowan ~e was implemented, I believe it is $15 a week or is it a month?

Yes, $15 a week, that is the provincial allowance, Sir, for students who do not qualify under the Canada Manpower Tr~ining Programme. Would the minister indicate to the committee ~hether his department has any intention of increasing this amount 4460 ,,

April 12, 1973 ,Tape No: 1171 NM - 2 MR, NEARY: because things have .gone up substantially, Si~, in the last six or seven years! We hear so much talk about the cost-of living and inflation, well the cost of books are gone up too, Sir, and the cost of everything else~as gone up, pencils, pens, rulers and what have you. ·· So would the minister be able to t~ll us if there is any provision in here to increase that $15 provincial allowance or if - AN HON. ME~ER: Item no, four. MR. NEARY: What is item number four? ~ HON.

ME'-IBER: Inaudible, MR, NEARY: No, I am dealing with the minister's salary now, I want to ask him some questions about it, MR, MURPHY: Oh,talking about an increase for the minister, I thought - MR, NEARY: No, maybe we could cut the minister's salary and increase the $15 provincial allowance. Another question I would like to ask the ~inister, that is if it is included under this subhead, is the Adult Upgrading Centre at Stephenville included in this vote?

Would the minister tell us if there is going to be any. expansion in the field of adult training and adult upgrading, any expansion of the adult upgrading facilities? I believe now there is one at Carb..ciJ2ear and one at Stephenville. Are there any others in the province? Will there be any others this year? What is going to be done in the field of adult training, Sir? Would the minister give us a run down on the progress report on the big Adult Upgrading Centre in Stephenville that we were so proud of, Sir, and if there is any intention on the part of the government to expand the facilities?

I am sure Your ~onour would be interested in having the answer to that question. Are any more buildin~s ~oing to be -renovated in Stephenville? Will there be more students this year or will more schools be opened on a regional basis? Have the adult 4461

fpri~ 12, 1973 Tape No. 1171 r,M - 3 -~ HR. NEA.~Y~ upgrading centres scattered throughout the provincet I am sure Your Honour would not like to hear that but would the minister just indicate what plans they have for this adult upgrading programme? MR. OTTEXHEPfER: Mr.

Speaker, with reference to the adult centres such as Stephenville, which now has a tvtal number of 690 students, of course there are others - Happy Valley, Bell Island. ~tis our intention, and these are done in negotiations with Manpower because these are people with cost-sharing through Manpower, basic training for skilled development programme I believe it is called,and we are meeting with Manpower on this and it is our hope and indeed our expectation that there will be an agreement whereby these facilities can be available in other regions and to mQre Newfoundlanders.

Certainly it is a very valuable,worthwhile programme. Its major benefit is to those people who left school at an early age and who frequently want to take advantage of some technical or vocational training programme but need basic upgrading in order to be able to do that. It is a very worthwhile service. A certain amount of it is done at the College of Fisheries as well, apart from the adult centres,and it is our wish and indeed our belief that negotiations with Manpower will come to a result whereby we will be able to have thes~ faciiities in other parts of the province.

The honourable gentleman asked for the student allowances, I believe,for the provincial students. These of course are for those who are not in receipt of Canada Manpower allowances. The present scale i~; a head of a family up to $30 per week, a single person living.at home $10 per week and living away from home $25 per week. Those are the rates presently uBed for the provincial students. MR, NEARY: The minister did not indicate, Mr. Chairman, whether there was going to be any increase in these provincial allowances or not. 4462

April 12, 1973 Tape No. 1171 NM - 4 MR. OTTD,'HErnER: There was not il!l.::!ediate provision for it · _but it is a matter where we certainly keep an open mind, On a couple of occasions, I believe two during the past three or three and a-half months, 1 have met with representatives of the various vocational schools and I have undertaken to meet with them again in the very near future. Right now that is the rate and it is something which obviously we have to keep an open mind on in view of changing conditions.

All I can say is that that is the rate now and it is not now government's intention to increase it but it is something on which governments obviously keep an open mind. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the min_ister did some pretty fancy foot work on that answer. He said, no they are not going to increase the provincial allowances this year. I am sure that all the students, and potential students, will be awfully disappointed tu hear that. Now, Sir, the minister indicated that the adult upgrading centres would be open in the forseeable future, I presume this year he meant, on a more regional basis.

I think there is a lot to be said for that, Mr. Chairman. There are argu:nents for and against having a large centre like you have in Stephenville, and all the students concentrated in one area, there is an argument in favour of it. I presume it would be less costly to feed and ho~se the students maybe because the facilities are there but it is a terrible inconvenience, especially to married men, Sir, who have to leave ho~e and attend the adult upgrading centres in Stephenville,when you have a vocational training school probably right in your own community.

So, I would think, although I do not want to put the honourable minister on the spot, Sir, but lam more or less in favour of the St:!.aller upgrading centres myself. I do not want to put the minister on the spot, Sir, but when this doe·s happen, when the 4463

-. Apr~l 12, 1973 Tape No. 1171 NM - 5 -~ MR. NEARY: regional schools are open, and personally I do not see why this does happen, when the regional schools are open, personally I do not see why there should not be an adult upgrading class in every vocational school. I really do not think there is any argument against it. MR. OTTE~1lEIMER: That is what we are working towards. MR. NEARY: The minister says that is what they are working towards. Well I presume then, Mr.

Chairm.:?, without putting the minister on the spot, that that would mean that the big,huge adult upgrading centre at Stephenville would be scaled down considerably because there would not be any need to operate it at the same level that it is being operated at the present time. Would the minister care to comment on that? MR. OTTEt-.1lEIMER: Right.

Actually the plan is to offer this kind of upgrading in all of the vocational schools and this is what discussions are with Manpower, now goin~ on, actuallv th~r~ are a fair number of them now, Just going through a list here, at Springdale there is one, at Happy Valley,of course Bell Island, as the honourable gentleman no doubt is aware - MR, NEARY: Limited. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes, these are fairly small numbers. At Placentia the total there is 50, Carbonear, quite a large one, the total there is 155; 50 at Bonavista, I think that is the limit of it.

Of course there is a fair amount of u?grading work done at the College of Fisheries as well. It is our intention to get it into every vocational school and that of course will give it pretty good geographic spread. I would imagine then the demand should relax a bit at Stephenville although it might be a year or two before that is obvious because I think that when these facilities are available on this kind of a regional basis, there will probably be a lot more people taking advantage of them who do not now, So it could be a year or two before the decline would be evident at 4--154 ( )

April 12, 1973 Tape No • 1171 6 MR. OTTE11IEI~R: Stephenville. MR, NEARY: I would subcit to the honourable minister, Sir, that he might have in a year or two the JD;:!kings of a community college in Stephenville by using these facilities. It looks to me like they will be abandoned, Sir, that you may have a small adult upgrading centre in Stephenville and then the facilities could probably be used for a community college, MR, F. ROWE: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister of Finance mentioned yesterday and the day before, mentioned the fact that I was using the new math~to prove that more was less when I was suggesting that the education budget this year is a retrenchment budget. It is just in this vote alone, along with four or five others that we have already passed ,that we see a cut - back on expenditures this year as compared with last year.

Last year the revised vote for vocational training was $9,230,000 and this i~ t::"1 ,R'l IV'ln -.u y, ,...,...,...,t~_,...,, Sir, that :La an example in mind,of retrenchment when in the area of vocational education anyway because the capital expenditure this year is down quite drastically. The capital expenditurP. vote is - I cannot find it here now - down by an a.i:,.ount Well last year for construction and alterations it was $3.5 million, this year it is only $200,000. Now, Sir, this would not be that significant if it were not for the 0 fact that the vocational schools are bursting at t!i.e seams •.

Sir, I would like to refer to the College of Trad~s and Technology for a minute.if I· ~AY, ~ow this trades and technology is obviously under another vote, but the reason that I am referr~ng to it, Mr. Chairman, is to show the strain that there must be on the _vocational schools in this province because the Trades and Technical College is to a predominant extent nothing more than a vocational school. Its vocational progra=es could conceivably be transferred 3r should be transferred to a vocational school in which the programme should be inte~rated with the secondary schools 4465

April 12, 1973 Tape No. 1171 NM - 7 MR. F. ROWE: in tb1' St. John 1 s Area. The College itself, Sir, could probably more likely be developed into a polytechnical institute or a true-blue trades and technical college because the situation that we have there now, there is a total population in the College of Trades and Technology of 1,712 students and the most striking feature of that college, Sir, is that it is in fact a glorified vocational school.

Almost 600 of these students are enrolled in twenty- six courses that are pre-employment courses and are characteristic. of vocational school courses, such as barbering, beauty culture, brick layi~g, carpentry, catering, clerk-accounting, clerk-hotel front office, clerk-typing, commercial art, cooking,drafting, architectural drafting, electrical,basic, and right down the line,sheet metal, shorthand-typing, stationary engineering and welding.

Si:::, the •.;cry fact &pproxiwat€lJ one half of tha students enroll~d in the College of Trades and Technology are in fact vocational school students is an indication of the strain that we have on the vocational schools in this province. So we need more of them. On top of that, Sir, we have fifteen vocational colleges or vocational schools in this province, with 5,000,approximately,full-time students and almost 10,000 part-time students for a total population of 15,000 students.

Then besides these vocational schools, Sir, we have craft training centres outside of the vocational schools themselves and there are eighty-five of these centres,with 4,000 students enrolled in them. Besides that, Sir, we have an adult education programme being run by the vocational education division and we have a total of something like seventy-two centres, adult training centres under the vocational system, with a total enrollment of 4,261 students. 4466

April 12, 1973 Tape 1172 On top of that, Sir, w7have seven private trade schools offering_ {;"). these are·· broken down into ~!ewfoundland students enrolled. students completed. This is commerical types of schools and this type of thing. Sir, these progra=es - there are a tremendous number of branches of vocational-educational centres in this province. There is the College of Trades and Technology itself which seems ·to be mainly a vocational school,at least · to the extent-of fifty per cent.

Sir, this is an indication of the need that we have in the area of vocational education and in spite of that great need, in spite of the need for additional institutions,although we are going to have three open this year, in spite of this need we have a cut back of approxir.iately $2 million in the vote for vocational education. Sir, in passin?- I am a little bit concerned about this whole business of a col:ll'lunity college for Stephenville.

From what I can understand there is an adult education centre there now, there is a vocational school there at the present time and there are a number of other extensions of the College of Fisheries I believe and e.~tension services of the university as well as E,T.V. courses and what have you. I am wondering what are the plans of the present administration in this regard. Are they planning to put a co=.iunity college up in addition to these existin~ educational facilities or do they intend to integrate these existin~ educational facilities and in fact end up calling that a community colle?e on the west Coast?

Because obviously the description that the Prel'lier gave for a community cc,llege sounded very much to me like it was going to be another glorifiecl vocational school. It would certain~y be similar to the existing College of Trades and Technology which is at the present tine one half a vocational school. But, Sir, I would just like to make that point that in -this area at least,alon:! with the• Collere of Trades and Technolo"=:y and the Collere of Fisheries,~e have had retrenchment on the part of this acministration,in spite of what the honour-able the Xinister 4467

April 12, 1973 ' Tape 1172 of Finance has had to say about it. ·I would like the honourable Minister of Education,if he could,to clarify the situation with respect to a·cornrnunity college on the West Coast as it affects vocational education in the Stephenville Area,seeing we have so many institutions like that in these surrounding communities at the present time. MR. OTTEXHEHf!':R: !-!r. Chainnan, first of all I should deal with the honourable gentleman's statement that there is retrenchment here and a cut back here. Now there is only a cut back in the total.

That is the only place there is a cut back and that is because,if the honourable rentleman will ·look under 621(09)(08) - Construction and Alterations(Capital),which is $3.5 million and that is $~00,000 and that makes up for the bulk of it. This of course is because of the ex?enditures basically for Happy Valley, Baie Verte and St.

Ant~ony vocational schools and also certain bills which ca.~e due in that fo!"!'ler fiscal year for Placentia, Bonavista and Springdale,but overall there is an increase eX1Jenditure in salaries because there are going to be more vocational teachers with three new schools,from $4.6 million to $5.S million, in allowance to students,from $1.1 million to $1.5 million, in vocational school equipment not that large but they want an increase of $200,000 from $1.6 million to $1.8 million.

Well that is the apparent difference and actually there is a difference but that is because this year we do not have the capital construction of any new vocational schools. Well, that is ret·renchment. ~lo, I would not call that retrench.'!tent. It n:eans that for this fiscal year we are not building any new vocational schools. We have three new ones starting in September and we are planninp. to di~ersify and improve the overall pror,rar.-:me as I mentioned previously,when the honourable member for Bell Island made the very wise su~~estion of having these remedial upgradin~ courses on a more rcr,ional basi~.

That is what we are planning ,. JM - 2 4468

April 12, 1973 Tape 1172 to do and hoping to get them in ali the vocational schools. Now the honourable gentleman referred to the community college at Stephenville and I certainly do not mind speaking on it. It would be unfortunate if we did now and did it again and again and again. So I will certainly answer his question now. The new community college at Stephenville will be, I think one views this in ter!!ls of the services and facilities it provides. Certainly it is not the intention to go in and start constructing building.

There are quite a number of educational services in Stephenville now in terms of adult education, vocational education. There is the presence of university extension services and about to start or having just started but about to ~tart very soon will be some craft training progra'Tlllles there,and we are pleased to be able to provide that. To a large exten 't that is in response to work done by the Port au Port Development Association who have been in t0uch JM - 3 with vocational education people and together there has been workecl out a craft training programme.

What I would say would be that certainly starting this year, starting the next acade~ic year,there should be further co-ordination and integration of all of those programr.ies there.

I would think that not too long after that a post of director of community education for that area should be filled and that the objective is to improve and augment the educational facilities and services of the area in terms of the already existing ones and,based upon the needs of the area,whatever involve~ent from other sources would be necessary, increase involver.,ent of the university extension or any other university services ~~ich would be necessary. The idea is not putting up a building and calling it a comcmnity collere.

If and when a specific buildin>! is necessary, that is a different matter. l-/hat is proposed is to Provide an interration and an inProvenent ?.nd a develor~ent of various educational and social facilities. I am certainly not usin~ the 4459

April 12, 1973 Tape 1172 JM - 4 word educational in the academic sense ., social services and facilities from any and all agencies involved in it. r think, ~r. ChaiTI!lan, that I have responded to the points made by 0 the honourable gentle1:1an. MR. l-:OODP.\~D: ~r. Chairman, maybe the honourable minister can tell the co=ittee on the I!appy Valley school, maybe he can inform the committee of the number of instructors who will be at the school. Possibly he can give us a block figure as to the ~mount of the salaries involved for the instructors.

I would also like to know the number of students that the school will accommodate. Possibly he can elaborate a little on the curriculum, the trades that are going to be taught in the school and if students from Labrador will get preference over students on the island portion of the province and if the school will be operational and functional come Septe1:1ber. MR. OTTE\'1-!EI!'.F.R: I am sorry. MR. MARTIN: Mr.

Chairman, I have a question to be added to those asked by ny honourable friend from Labrador North, The situation vith regard to dormitory space for the school, there was some confusion as to whether or not that facility was actually going to be built. MR. OTTENHEI?-!ER: With reference to the last point there is a federal-provincial committee which has met twice,I believe. The honourable gentleman is a member on it and which has a representative of the Department of Education.

One of the points that the provincial p,overnrnent are making is the use of residence facilities for students and oerhaps to a certain extent for soMe of the instructors as well,on the base. Those negotiations are still going on. I think they are going very well although until it is finalized when there is any federal-provincial ap,reement.one part of the negotiation°s,ue cannot say it'is definite. Certainly it is my feeling this is a very real need and recognized as such by the federal authorities. I certainly feel optimistic that the residence facilities ~-111 be there. 4470 ·,

April 12, 1973 Tape 1172 In answer ·fir-the questions from the honourable gentleman opposite 1we would th_ink that approximately 200 students,we would envisage the school will be capable of handling,and approxioately twenty instructors. Certainly priority will be given to residents from Labrador. Now if it is not filled,obviously,by applications and there are residents from.other areas applying,obviously that is a different matter~but there is no doubt that priority will be given to applicants from Labrador. MR. WOODWA.~D: ~r.

Chairman, maybe the honourable minister can inform the comnittee as to if there is going to be sufficient classroom space in our vocational schools this year to fit in the students ·who are making application and if he can indicate to the co=ittee the nll!1lber of students who will be possibly turned away this year. Is that information available? MR. OTTE:i"TPEH!ER: Mr.

Chairman, it would be pretty difficult to say how many would be turned away and of course there are quite a number of people who raight be refused admittance but it would not necessarily be because the place is crowded or there is no room for them. Number one,there are some who do not have the qualifications for the specific course that they want. ~Ulllber two, in a number of cases they might be told that in or<lar to take that course they have to take this for three or six months first, and they decide not to do it.

Obviously there are instances where courses JM are filled as well but it is pretty difficult to give an anticipation of how many. I personally think that with an all-out effort to maximize the facilities we have that should not be a serious problem. That should not be a ser:ouci problem if we maxirnize the facilities we have. MR. NEA.T{Y : ~r. Chairman, I just have a·quick auestion to put to the honourable minister, Sir.

Will the honourable minister inforl'l ·the committee if the peoole in Lahraclor 1,'est are 11:oin,:'. to 11:et their vocational school or are they not gain~ to Pet their vocational school or did the honourable Premier get carried awav,as he does som~times when he is at one of these gatherin?s where they serve ~ 1,., 1 ':t ":i. 5

April 12, 1973 Tape 1172 coffee and sandwiches beforehand? ~-iip the honourable minister tell us whether they are r,oing to get their • school? Will it be this year or was it just a pronise that w~s made in an off-the-cuff rereark by the honourable Premier?· MR. OTITXEF.U~P.: Certainly I ,muld not anticipate a vocational or technical school in Labracor West this year. However, we are planning to meet with industry and unions and residents in Labrador West Area, Wabush and Labrador City,to assess specifically the needs there..

I would hope that the year after a start could be made on a technical or vocational school in Labrador West, Certainly I think in ~eneral and I think the honourable gentler.~n opposite would agree that there is a need there. I believe that part of the problem is that sone of ~he corapanies,when young men leave perhaps · to go to university or go here or there,they may not COll'.e back

whereas if there was a facility for post-secondary education there tied in with the employnent opportunities and the industries there but not totally restricted to it,because a person does hav~ the right to live elsewhere, but tied in with it,that would be of great assistance and I think would have the over-all effect of keeping as many Newfoundland-Labradorians,having thern get the opportunities of employr.ient rather than having to go outside, I think basically it is pretty soun~. It certainly will not be there this year.

I would certainly envisage that this year definite plans will be made and meetings held with the companies and unions and residents in general to define and identi{y the exact needs, MR. ~:EA...~V: Well, ~r. Chairman, in that case there is a strong case to be r.~de also for a vocatior.al school in Labrador South which is one of the few isolated areas left in this province. ~ow it is one thing to tie in a vocational school with an industry which is . probably a ~ood thing but all you are doing is on the job training that the co~panies should be doin g themselves. If somebody said to me today, ~r.

Chairnan, ''Where would you like to see a vocational school built, in Labrador 1~est or in Labrador South?'' Sir, without 4472 JM - 6

April 12, 1973 Tape 1172 hesitation, without thrnking about it a.t all I think I would have to say Labrador South. I think there is more need for a vocational trainin~ school in Labrador South than there is in Labra<!or West or for that matter in any other · part of our province. I am surprised that the me~ber for Labrador South, Sir, is not in bis seat to hear this as 1 am sure he would app.reciate it. I just loolced out and he was going down on the elevator and probably listening to my remarks <,1s the elevator door ·closed. But, Sir, these people are down there and they are the forgotten people of JM - 7 4473

April 12, 1973 Tape 1173 IB-1 Newfonndland and if we do not put a vocational school tnere, there must be some way, ~r. Chairman, that you can bring vocational ana technical training to the people in Southern L~brador without having the people leave ho~. This is a tremendous inconvenience to these people, Sir. The conversations that I had down there last fall, especially with the people in the Straits,Area showed that they do not want to leave home to go to a vocational school. Sir, they want to stay in Southern Labrador.

I think that this is a reasonable request, I would like to suggest tto the minister, despite what the honourable the Premier says - the honourable the Premier gets carried away once in a while and makes off-the-euff remarks. ~aybe if we could get him down to Southern Labrador and get him on a public gallery, Sir, ~here they have good, strong coffee, ':esqife? ~o, I think it is tea down there. I remember in West St. Modeste I had one of the best cups of tea that I have had in this province for a long time, Sir.

Maybe if we could get the Premier down there in West St. ~odeste, get a cup of tea into him,then he might make a commitment to the people in Labrador South where vocational training facilities are in my opinion badly needed, more so than in Labrador West. I am not denying the people of Labrador West that privilege either, I would like to see a vocational school in Labrador West and in Labrador South. I think that it is a matter of priorities and I think that the ~inister of Education will agree with me on that,that you have to do some~hing for Labrador South.

Sir, until that road is put through right from the Straits right up to P.appy Valley, uo to Goose Bay, these people are going to be isolated and I would su~gest, Sir, that that is going to be for a long, long time. There must be some way that we can bring vocational training to.these people without having them leave the area. ~. OTTDi!!Et~~: And also even the presently existing ones, ~aterials that they Mi~ht need. On motion 03-02 carried. 4474 . ( I

April 12, 1973 Tape 1173 IB-2 MR. WOODWARD: On 03-04: Maybe the minister could explain just briefly.for the benefit of the committee, the student allowances. 'R'. OTTENHEUIER: Right. I did that before but now I have to find the files because I do not . remember all of the figures. Yes. Ten dollars a ,.,eek for a single student living at home. Twenty-five dollars a week for a married student living at home and thirty dollars a week for a married student not living at home. MR. WOODWft.RD: This is other than what manpower pays for in the city. MR.

OTTEKHEI}!ER: This is usually in place of manpower because these are not manpower students. They do not qualify ~nder manpower. There is no manpower orogramme for their specific courses. You know,_it would be ideal if we could get manpower to broaden its base and keep .orking on that: There are certain courses where there are employment coportunities for people when they graduate but manpower does not unden.-rite them. These are usually two or three year ones.like a course in pharmacy, X ray technologists and in that area manpower does not participate. On motion 03-04 carried. MR.

NEARY: On 03-09, can the ~inister explain that? What is it? MR. OTTENHEI~R: That is basically and frequently there is a movement of equipment sometimes from one school to another or one school may have completed a course in the first semester and it will not be giving it in the second but another school would be. It is for inter-school loans. On motion 03-09 carried. MR. NEARY: Could the minister explain what this $12,000 for the Ne\..•foundland and Labrador Women's Institute is used for? ~- OTTENHEIVER: This is a women)s organization whi~h has been in existence for quite a number of years.

They do a fair amount of work in craft training and also holding meetings and discussions and whatever. 4475

April 12, 1973 Taoe 1173 IB-3 ~- NEARY: Are they over here at the Arts and Culture Center? MR. OTTEXHEil-KER: Y~s, they are. I understand that their offices are there. !--'R. NEAFY: Okay. I know what it is all about now. MR. OTTE!-illEPfER: This amount we vote to them for their internal operations. ~. WOODWARD: originated? Is this a provincial thing or ju~t St. Johns's MR. OTTENHEIXER: This is provincewide. It is quite strong on the West Coast and orobably in Port au Port. It used to be "Jubilee Guilds". That I think. was formed under Commission of Government. It used to be "Jubilee Guilds".

Now it is called "The Women's Institute" and· it is ,provincewide in the sense that it is not restricted to any one part but obviously there are parts in the province in which they do not exist. MR. WOODWARD: I never heard of the institute in Labrador, ~r. Chairman. I have heard of the Women's Lib in Labrador but I have not heard - maybe the minister can do a little research and tell us if there is such an organization in Labrador. MR. OTTEh"HEI'~R: We will try to send some of them up to organize. On motion 03-10 carried MR. NEARY: On 03-11.

Would the minister tell us where we are renting space now under this subhead? 1-'R. OTTE~HEI"'ER: In certain areas where there is craft training or adult education it is necessary to rent from school boards some of the dayroom schools. fhat is what that is for. ~- WOODWARD: What are the places where you are renting facilities? }!l>. OTTEXHEI~'ER: There are seventy olaces around the province here . !-'!I .• WOODWARD: Could we have a look at the names of ~he places and the square footage in each olace and the rent per square foot? t-'R.

OTTE'.'IHEI"ER: The school coard sets a rental in ne?,otiation with the vocational trainin~ people. To the best of my knowledge the 4476

April 12, 1973 Tape 1173 rentals are realistic based on light and heating and janitorial cost. I do not think anv school boards are making money but they are breaking even I imagine. The average would probably be five dollars oer class room per night. That might go up and down but that might be the averaf.e. f-(R. WOODWARD: This would not include the facilities like the Department of Public Works would rent such as upgrading schools and things of that nature? IB-4 MR.

OTTENHEI~R: No, no~ These would just be one or two classrooms or maybe three in any community where a vocational educational division will be putting on a course and they rent a classroom from the school board. The usual rate.would be five dollars per evening per classroom. On motion 03-11 carried. MR. NEARY: On 622-04. Mr. Chairman, would the minister give us a report on the College of Fisheries. I heard a very disturbing report,! think it was a few weeks ago,on radio about the enrollment at the College of Fisheries being down so~ewhat this year. I think I saw Dr.

Barrett on the television explaining why he thought that the enrollment was down. -AN HO~OT'.RABLE !-fE"fBER: Do we have a quorum in the House, Mr. Chairman. "!-fR.. ~TEARY: No quorum, !-Ir. Chairman. MR. CHAIR.".A.N: We have a quorum. . '-fR. NEARY: We have a quorum? Now, Mr. Chairman, as I said I do not know what it was all about. I must confess that I really did not ray too much attention to the explanation that was given. I was rather surprised to learn that enrollment at the College of Fisheries had been do~'TI so~ewhat this year.

I always felt myself that the College of Fisheries had _a great future in this province. As far as I can see, Sir, from what little knowledge I have of the Colle?,e of Fisheries and mv visits there,that they are doing an excellent job over there. Would the minister tell us what future the 4477

April 12, 1973 Tape 1173 IB-,? College of Fisheries has if in fact enrollment was down this year -~ and why it is down and give us a sort of a progress report on just what is happening? MR. OTTENTIEI~R: Mr. Chairman, I do not think,whatever report it was,that the enrollment at the College of Fisheries was down would have been an accurate one if one were to take let us say a nine or a ten month period or say a twelve month period.

There is a fluctuating population because people come in for two and three month courses and certainly it could well be that at one specific point in 1973 there would be less students than at a specific point in 1972 because of the system they have where the people come and go throughout the year for various three month courses. However, I would say that certainly the totals within the twelve month periods during the past few years would show an increase each year.

Next •year I would expect quite an in~rease in the total number because very recently,within the past couple of weeks,the College of Fisheries (the govermnent has but through the Agency of t~e Department of Fisheries) reached agreement with manpower for further manpower participati~n in their courses there. It is a relatively new approach to upgrading instruction,called IPI, Individual Prescribed Instruction. Some of these pedagogic terms leave one a bit up in the air. Certainly I would expect that there will be an increase next year because of this increased Participation of manpower students.

As a matter of fact, they will be looking for. eight or nine instructors, additional instructors to look after this progran:me. This is of course rei~hursahle from the federal government. Now this year the total number of people serviced or taking courses - I want to qualify it after - through the College of Fisheries,will be 2,816. That figure can be misleading. I want to break it down. There are 1,490 who are taking diploma 4478 f

April 12, 1973 Tape 1173 technology courses in various areas~ food technology, naval architecture, fish processing, navigation, etc. Of that IB-6 total 2,800, 1,490 are in the various diploma technology courses, Some of the courses given of course are for accreditation by the. Ministery of Transport with a lot of people getting first mates and second mates and different tickets there. Tr.ere are various short courses for certificates. They might be nine month courses, a year or some ~ight be six ~onths, So, that iR 1,490. Of course there are a small number in eveni~g classes.

This is something which pays for itself. There are seventy-four in coastal navigation and outboard motor ~epair. That is basically a kind of adult education programme they put on for people who are interested in it. Then there are 322 in the course of the year who will take various things such as fire fighting, rescue and survival, As a matter of fact it is .about six or seven weeks ago I recall that I was down there when a course was put on in collaboration with the Department of Justice for fire chiefs of the volunteer fire organizations throughout the orovince.

Then of course is their very valuable service which is their extension service where they have schools which go into dozens of communities in the course of the year to stay for three or four or however many weeks is necessary for instruction,basically to fishermen and others involved in nets and gear, in boat building and navigation and engine reoair. So, that is what brings the total uo to 2,816, As I say, I would exoect an increase in the total enrollment next·year because of the increased oarticipation with the neoartment of Manrower.

I would also envisape arexcellent future for that college, Its full nam7,and it is rather long and curnberso~e but it does indicate the scope of what work that they do, is College of Fisheries, Navigation, ~arine Engineering and Electronics. One could well 4479 I I l

April 12, 1973 Tape 1173 IB-7 t:hink of it as art institute of offsho.re technology although it does other things as well. Within about a month we are planning to organi . .ze a conference on offshore technology with the people from the College of Fisheries and indeed from other training institutions and from the two companies who are involved in exploration out on the Grand Banks,to involve industry, oi: comr,anies, various training institutions, to exa.J!line the whole area of training in that field. I think that it is placed with increased emphasis on the fishery.

Out of the Law of the Sea Conference you know comes an agreement of Canada's exclusive right to fish up to two hundred miles or so offshore and certainly the further opr,ortunities for our fishennen inshore and offshore. With the exploration for oil and certainly wtth its discovery it would ap'!)ear that this area of offshore technology is I 4480

April 12, 1973 Tape no. 1174 - Page 1 - MW a very important one and I think the college has a very important role to play in it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I am greatly relieved to hear that there are no plans to cut back the College of Fisheries. The College of Fisheries, I think, has a very soft spot in the minister's heart. That is the minister's old Alma Mater. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Appointed by the former Minister of Economic Development. MR. NEARY: That is right, appointed by the previous administration. The minister is very familiar with this college.

Cne interesting feature about this and I wonder if the minister would touch on it briefly: This college is recognized all over the world. We get a lot of students from foreign countries coming into Newfoundland. I see them down there playing,not soccer. What is it they play down there? Is it touch ball? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Volley ball. MR. NEARY: I see them down there at Pleasantville once in a while, down at the sports field,down there playing a little ball. Would the minister tell us how many students come to Newfoundland from foreign countries each year? What kind of courses do they take?

What kind of accommodations do we have for these students? How much accommodation do we have down there at Pleasantville? I am just going to deal with one particular item that the minister mentioned when he was listing off or reeling off. the list of courses there,and that is food technology. I wonder how this course at the College of Fisheries compares with the courses being run at the College of Trades and Technology, Is it the same course? Is it experimenting with food, with fish? Is this what it is? If this is so then - I remember a few years ago, Mr.

Chairman, I think the Arctic Char originated over here at the College of Fisheries. Mr. Ian Strachan, I think, who was on the staff of the college at the time, was really responsible I suppose for developing the Arctic Char which is considered 4481

April 12, 1973 Tape no. · 1174 Page 2 a luxury iten in t~e restaurants and dining rooms all over North America. Would the minister be able to tell us what they are exper~menting with over there now in this food technology line? Are they experimenting~ Two, four, six, eight, ten, twelve, no quorum, Mr. Chairman. I am sure, Mr. Chairman, there is an honourable gentleman sitting in the gal~eries today who would like to know if there are any experiments-being carried on with caplin? What are they doing there? Perhaps the minister could give us an explanation of what is happening there.

What are they experimenting with? Probably give us a report of any success that they may have had in this field? MR, OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Chairman, first with respect to other than Newfoundland students there are sixteen from other Canadian provinces. Now I would say that·they would be here either on their own resources or scholarships they may have won. There are twenty-nine foreign, non-Canadian students. The vast majority of those would be from African and Asian countries brought in with the help of the external aid programme of the federal gov~rnment.

They are brought in through the financial assistance of the federal government. There is no doubt that the College of Fisheries certainly does have a world­ wide reputation and quite an international faculty, faculty from just about all over the world and 1 am very pleased to say a great number of Newfoundl;nders too, It has quite an international faculty, a fairly international student body,with this year ~-enty-nine brought in by the federal government. HR, NEARY: There is no quorum, Sir. They are going to go on until four or five o'clock tomorrow morning, Mr.

Chairman, and they cannot even keep a quorum ,in the House 4:50 P.M. We are putting through $100 million. 4482 -1

0 April .12, 1973 Tape no. 1174 Pag~ 3 MR. OTTE~"HEIMER: That explains that. The food technology, · yes it is fish technology. They do experimental work there, salmon, scallops, trout. There are some going on in the processing of caplin. Of course, they have smokers, freezers and a lot of equipment in fish processing. I think that 1.::. many cases they co:ne up with a very good product. The thing is for .ndustry to pick it up and develop it because the Fishery Collegt is not an institution which really should be marketing. MR. NEARY: Do they have a canning factory? MR. OTTENHEIHER: They have canning and smoking.

Practically any kind of fish processing for food is done there. On motion 622-04, carried. On motion 622-07, carried. MR. WOODWARD: Mr, Chairnan, on .622-07-01, maybe the honourable minister could explain where the equipment is going and what type of equipment, $150,000? MR. OTTE~"HEL'!F:R: This would be basically classroom furnishings with the additional manpower participation and the increased enrollment and the need for eight or nine additional instructors. The vast majority of this would be for necessary furnishings for those classrooms. On motion 622-07-01, carried. On motion total subhead 622, carried. MR.

ROWE (F.B.): Mr. Chairman, on 623-01, I know honourable members on the other side of the House might be anxious to put tr.at one through and I guess they anticipate some of the co=ents I am going to m.u.e with respect to this particular subhead, Sir, first of all there is a vast a=.ount of money here,$30 million approxi'Clately, going to ~~e university, Can the minister, jus _t before he leaves, indicate approximately how much will be coming from the federal government? into my co=ents, if he could indicate that. Before I get 4483

April 12, 1973 Tape no. 1174 Page 4 MR. OTTENHEL~ER: Approximately between $17 million and $18 million. MR. ROWE (F,B.): So that is a total of about $48 million from government sources which will be going to the university. MR. OTTENHEIMER: No, $17 million or $18 million would be for post- secondary education in general. MR. ROWE (F,B.): Right, That is from the federal government. MR., OTTEl:;nEUU:R: Right. MR. ROWE (F.B.): Besides the $30 million here from the provincial. MR. OTTEt-,nEIMER: No! No! MR. ROWE (F.B.): Oh, are there some Appropriations-in-Aid? HR.

OTTEt-.nEI;-!ER: No that $17 million would be built i:l. MR. ROWE (F.B.): So altogether from provinci~l and federal sources we have about $30 million going to the university t~is year. , MR. OTTEN"dEIMER: That is adding up the Grants-in-Aid. MR, ROWE (F.B.): Right. MR. OTTENHEUfER: And the capital cos ts. MR. ROWE CL B . ) Oh right, Grants-in-Aid, correct. Okay, Mr.

Chairman, the point that I was going to raise here~ since there is this vast sum of money of $30 million coming from both -provincial and federal sources going to the university, I was wondering if the honourable mi~ister,when he speaks to this particular vote, would indicate whether or not his policy has changed with respect to making the university budget public for everybody in the province to see.

It seems to me,in 1968 I believe,some honourable members in the opposition of that day raised that particular question, If I remember correctly (they do not have indices for the Hansard of 1968 and I was not able to get the exact wording of the now hon. Minister of Education) it seems to me, Sir, that he was advocating very strongly the fact that the university should make its complete budget completely public to the people of Newfoundland, since such vast sums of money were ccmi~g from provincial and federAl sources, 4484 • I

April 12, -1973 Tape no. 1174 Page 5 I was wondering if his mind has changed on this matter at all. I think it is a very important change of_ policy. Is the minister still thinking along these lines? I can think of a great many advantages and disadvantages to making a university budget public. I tend towards thinking that it should be made public in terms of the tremendous contribution that has been made by the people of this province. After all the money is coming from the goverllJllent and the money that goes to the government comes from the people.

I think. the university should be answerable to some extent to the public of Newfoundland when they are contributing such a vast sum of money to the university itself. Sir. I would like the minister also to indicate the status of the ten student residences for Memorial University. MR. OTTENHEIMER: How many? MR. ROWE (F.B.): I understand that work was supposed to begin early in the new year on these residences.

This is taken from a newspaper clipping, Sir, of November, 1972: "The Provincial Government hope to be in the position to call tenders for construction of ten student residences for Memorial university at such an early date that construction can start early in the new year. Public Work's Minister, Dr. T. Farrell,said Tuesday he will meet with St. John's Mayor _ Uilliam Adams,next week,to make final certain arrangements concerning the construction of the residences, including availability of land and the extension of services.

The residences will provide living quarters for married couples as well as single students." Sir, I would like for the hon. Minister of Education to indicate the status of the ten student residences that were pro!llised late in the last year. Also, Sir, sometime last year,in August,the Premier I believe it was announced that tenders were going to be called for the construction of the ~e~orial University Engineering School. If I remember correctly at that time, this was in August l, 1972, taken 4485

April 12, ·1973 Tape no. 1174 Page 6 from the ''Western Star," Sir. At that time, it strikes me that the Premier or the Minister of Finance (I will repeat that I am not quite sure who said this) suggested that they were going to do something to enable the university to have short-term financing. The question that I raised at that time was as to who was going to be responsibile for servicing the borrowing that the university was going to carry out. l was assuming ths.t this financing would be tied in with the construction of the new engineering school. I am a little bit confused on that.

I would appreciate once again the hon. Minister of Education straightening that particular matter out. In other words,what is the status of the engineering school at the present time? Who .is financing it? Who is servicing the financing of that particular school? Sir, these are three questions, the budget of the university; the residences at the university and thirdly the financing of the construction of the engineering school at Memorial University. Now, Sir, let us get back to something which l think I mentioned once or twice before, community colleges and junior colleges.

Sir, supposing we have to stand here and speak around the clocK for the next six months, I am not going to be satisfied at all and honourable members on this side of the House and I am sure many educators in Newfoundland will not be entirely satisfied until they hear something respecting policy as far as the construction of junior and community colleges are _ concerned. I should use the word regional colleges because that is the expression which has been used by the Premier ~ 4486

April 12, 1973, Tape 1175, Page 1 apb and ·by the }linister o~,,J;ducation. A regional college has been announced for Corner Brook and a co=unity college for Stephenville. There has been no statement of definition of co=unity colleges and regional colleges, except to suggest this, that a community college is very much like a vocational college or vocational school but will also meet the general needs of the coremuni~y.

The regional college has been described as a pure and_ simple extension of the university but also tacked onto that, I submit to make it look a little more acceptable to some people, is that that institution will also meet the general needs of the surrounding cor.mmnity and the surrounding region. I subr.:iit that we have to have a greater and more detailed statement of philosophy of objects as far as these institutions are concerned before we announce the fact that these institutions are being set up.

A few days ago I mentioned that one very serious consideration that has not been given is the proper and exact Ji,fternoon location for these conmunity colleges or these regional colle~es. I mentioned specifically the fact that probably putting such institutions in the towns and communities with the largest population riay not necessarily be the wost logical location as far as accessibility to people in the more rural areas are concerned.

I also asked why people should have to drive off ~ogo Island and come in ona ferry, why shouid they drive off Twillingate, !:ew World Island, why should they have to drive in the Gander Road? Why should they have to drive in to, say a place like r.ander? (Inaudible) ~ -. F .B .JH)WE: No, ~r. C.hai~~n. I do not think I went quite t~at far. I was su~gesting that (th£ Premier might have been out of the province at that particular tir.'

e) probab.ly Lewisporte ~.-ould be a more accessible location for the peonle of Grand :alls, Bishops :alls. Gander and New World Island ;i.nd ~hese communities. If one of the ~ain criteria for the establisrr.ent of the university is accessibility, we h~ve to take a very serious look as 4487

April 12, 1973, Tape 1175, Par.e 2 -- apb to whether or not we do in fact pu_t such institutions in a town, the largest tm,n. It may not mal:e that Much sense. l·!hv should not' the people of r:::inder drive over their paved hig ,hway to Lewisporte to attend the college in the evenings or what have you~ That is what I was getting at. The important point is that I have never heard in my life any ad~inistration announce the est~blishment of a re~ional college or a cOI!lI!!unity college without first articulating a philosophy or plan of action for the whole provinee.

This is an example on the part of this administration, of acting without planning~ I Afternoon thought the philosophy of this ad~inistration was the exact opposite. Plan first, articulate policv first, articulate aims first and then go ahe~d vith their actions. This was the understanding that I had, particularly wi.th all that has ?een said about planning co=.ittees, task force co~~ittees.

Sneal:ing about task force committees, Sir, the ~inister of Education, the other night,gave as his reason for the fact that a polytechnical institution had not been decided upon for this year, was that he had not yet seen the report of the Comcittee on Education and Human Resources. Sir, if that is the reason for not putting up a polytechnical institute, surely the same reason should be given for the establishment of co=unity and junior colleges in this province.

We still do not have the report of the Coim.ittee on Education and HUI!lan Resources, yet the Premier has announced the re~ional college and a cor.rrnunity college for two co=unities that are very close together on the West Coast. This is something th~t baffles the mind, particularly in light of the c:r.-=ents of the }'i.nister of Education the other night. Another ~oint th~t I ~i?ht ~ake,and I am going to reiterate this again, is that with all due respect to the gentlemen ofi that coll'T.littee, they have an ir:1possible _job to do.

Sixteen pages .of terms of reference, only one ~an is a full-time person on tMt co~rnittee. all the rest arc part-tire people, they have very important jobs to carry out and they still have to try top.et a report in by August.

April 12, 1973, Tape 1175, Page 3 apb I would like the Minister of Education to indicate, well personallji I would lH:e to see a more substantive committee be set up to carry out such a job. A leave of absence for several months or sonething for the gentlenen on the cornnittee seems like a much more logical approach to this whole problem. Basically, what I want the minister to indicate ts what his feelings are respectin~ rr~king public the budget of the university. (It seems to me, Sir, that the opposition.of the day did definitely state that this should be so.

This was around 1968.) Indicate the i status of the ten residences at the university, indicate the nat~re Afternoon of the financing of the engineering school at the university and try, I plea with him for the nth time to define what the governIT1ent policy is regarding the setting up of a regional college and a community college system in this province. It is my feeling that this province cannot stand the expense, We cannot afford in Newfoundland, we simply cannot afford a junior or regional college and a comr.iunity college system. It is as simple as that.

I have mentioned on many occasions in this House, the need for a co=unity college progra.r.irne whereby we can have a component of the university or a component of that co=unity college could take care o~ the needs of the university. The next thing you know, Sir, we are going to have developing on the Pest Coast a second universitv. I cannot see this province being able to afford two universities. It is simply outside the question. On top of tha·; I ouoted frcn the ''l"inancial Post•· a few days ago, where the~e is every indication that there is ~oing to be a ~rop off in univeristy enrollment anyway.

It has not reached this province yet for one logical reason, we have such a low per capita attendance at the university an~ay and we have a bit of catching up to do befo~e we reach the position of many of the States of the United States and many of the Provinces of Canada. I ~ve a funnv feeling that in the next ten or fifteen years, if this administration ?Oes on announcing institutions here and there, 4489

April 12, 1973, Tape 1175, Page 4 -- apb caving in to political pressures, we will have a multiplicity of post-secondary educational institutions in this province that wi.11 put a stran3lehold on our financial caoacity to oay for them. I think it is a big mistake, the approach that this administration is using at the present ti~e. P.ow they can come out and make these announcements without first articulating their plans and their prograr.:m~s is heyond my comprehension. A.N HON. '1-~ER: (Inaudible) MR.

F.B.ROHE: I might have to rep-eat it once or twice again, so the next t:ur.e round, if I do not get a satisfactory answer from the Minister of Education, I will be only too happy to repeat it. I knew this was what the honourable :!-1inister of Justice was getting at. Okay, ~r. Chairman, I will be only too happy to hear the words of the honourable minister. }'R • OTID.rtE l}'EF : ~r. Chairman, before getting into my defining Afternoon best to try to get the

definitions - actually I should not say that, because I am not going to get too far into exercises of defining- but to deal with matters that the honourable gentleman brought up · first,and that is publication of the university budget. He referred to debate in the Le~islature under the previous administration. I believe that was 1967. It went on for three or four days. It was at the tir.ie rather confusing and certainly five or six years later, even more confusing. As I recall, that decate p.rew out of the then administrations refusal,! ~res=e, tJ grant the university what it was looking for.

I suppose the process of negotiation broke do,;,"t'l or so!!'.e such thing. The then PreI:1ier, · '-'r. Srrnllwood. put forward the idea that the university budget perhans should be nade public in the sal!'e way that the civil service or any goverrtJT1ent denarm.ent, whereby any oersons, the deputy ministers or ster.or.raphers, any person's salary in the public service, in the civil service, in the deoartFlents of ~overnnent is public knowledr,e. F.e n~t th~t fon..-2rd with the idea, maybe we should do it. He checked.I think,with sorne places and found out that 4490 J

April 12, 1973, Tape 1175, rage 5 -- apb Afternoon there ~ere a small ruF:d:ier of universities which did in fact do it. No(lody wnnts to be held back for what took place six years or sorething ar,o. As I rec2ll, our position then was that in order for a relationship between a government and a university, which is a provincial university, a university therefore of the entire province,which is supported by public funds, in order for this relationship to be workable and sensible, that there had to be ttutual confidence.

The university obviously had to have confidence in an undertaking th~t the r,overnnent gave and also the governnent would have to have confidence in the adCTinistration and decision- m..akers of the university. l:ithout that confidence, then certainly the best interests of neither could be n..aintained. We in this adninistration have decided as a ~atter of policy that the hudF;et of the university should not be made public in the vay that department of government ·budget is public.

He feel that it, and I think that this \...•as the conclusion the £arr.er administration car,ie to - this debate a fev ye~rs a~o ~as I believe and as the fomer Prer:1.icr did, brought up so~ething to be talked on and discussed for days and days,1ust to feel the wind and see what kind of a reaction there vas. Phatever his person.?.! views were, certainly it \.13s the practice of the forr::er adrninjstration not to make public the budget of the university. It is this goverrm:cnt's policy not to riake it public. We feel that ••• mt.

POBFP.TS: It is the same policy. ~. ons-:PEr 1F.P: ---·--·--' -· -- Yes, it is the sare policy ~"1.th re~ard to publicatir,n of the university budget. A lot of arguments can be !)Ut up for oal·int" it public. There are puhlic funds and there should be the strict accountability that there is for a govern~ent departnent, because it is the sa~c public noneyt it is the sane taxpayers' ~oney. A stron;: arrurr.ent can be put up for it. If ,ho\.:ever, l-'C' \.·ere to jeopardize the pr(lpcr functir•ninr of the university, if we l.TCrc to mat.-e it if not irtpossible, very, very difficult,and it is already 4491

April 12, 1973, Tape 1175," Paie 6 - apb Afternoon pretty difficult som~tJ:!nes for Nel;:f'oundland to compete for top-notch people. If that d.~fficulty were to be increased manifold, if the university cO!!\muni ty, the people we depend upon, that c,me has to have at·a university, the teachers would not come,or those whose excdlence would S?ive them the possibility of being hire .d at any number of universities, ilmnedia:tely said; ''No• the heck with that, I will go somewhere else," then we would not have perfonned any service to the students, to the young men and W01llen of the province.

After all, they are the pril!le concetn, not the administratiqn nor .faculty of the university. It is the tho"®ands of Newfoundlanders . who avail themselves of the opportunities at the university 4492

April 12, 1973 ,Tape No·. 1176 MR. OTTE?-.1IEI~!ER: This administration feels that the grant:-in­ aid, the operating grant,if you wish,to the university. should NM - 1 be based-upon agreement or negotiation, negotiatin~ hopefully cul­ minating in an agreement, but on the factor of an allocation for each full-time student equipment. That is the area in which the negotiations should take place and it is with that in mind that the operation grant should be made. - .

If government be convinced that the full-time student equivalent appropriation that the university is asking for is a fair one, a legitimate one, an economic one, one that makes sense when compared with similat 'formula for other universities,then we have the right to ask the Legislature for appropriation of that amount. MR. F.

RQ'..,'E: Does not the university in fact have full disclosure of all of its expenditures to the government when they - this is the question you see, lf the government is not aware of where the money is going in the university, it can hardly be said that the government is protecting the interest of the people, if this is not so. This is the crucial point. Does the government know where every cent of the university's expenditure is going before it approves of it?

I agree with the honourable gentleman wholeheartedly that the government should be trusted in this regard but if they do not know the information they can hardly be accountable in this regard, MR. OTTEXHEI~R: The answer to that is yes. ~. ~. ~C'.~E: Co:::plete. MR, OTTE~1iEIMER: ~ot every sense, a quite complete breakdown by let us say faculty and department. We do not have nor have never askea for individual salaries. I will say this, that never in my oYO personal experience, never have I asked for any information that I was not i=ediately given. Never have I a~ked for any clarification which I was not 4493

April 12, 1973 Tape No. 1176 MR. OTl~~llEL~ER: 0 1iiiinediately given. So I can say that wheri government aoes make a request to the Legislature for the voting of a certain amount for the operating grants of the university, government does it with . knowledge, NM - 2 ·· What we are going by and what has been gone by for the past number of years is a grant for full-time student equivalent, and that in 1971-1972 was $2,003, in 1972-1973 was $2,192, 1973-1974 - $2,309.

To the best of the government's knowledge, as a matter of fact :we are quite sure_ that this is among the lowest full­ time student equivalent amounts in Canadian universities. Now since each university uses something of a different formula, these are approximations but certainly approximations which are very realistic.

In other words, government is convinced that with the grant based on that full-time student cquiv~lency forrrrula and request of approximately $2,300, the operating grant per_ full-time student equivalen~ that the university is budgeting and planning and spending and using maximum use of the money and facilities involved. MR.

NEARY: Do they have the same situations in other universities across Canada where there are non-government universities and they have large capital expenditure? ~ow here the government would . provide the buildings but on the Mainland and in the other universities they have to put up the bulldings the~selves and amortize the cost over a period s2y of twenty years. So you are talking about apples and oranges, two different situations altogether. MR. OTTENHEI~R: Well when you get into a private unive~sity, of course,which is funded from endowments and private sources and obviously they have a - MR.

NEARY: Inaudible.

April 12. 19.73 Tape No. 1176 NM - 3 MR. OTTE~"HENER: The amount that I am speaking about here,of course. and the formula is for the curren _t account, it is not fer the capital account, It does not have anything to do with the construction, AH HON. ~~ER: $2,300 is openting. MR. OTTE~IBE!MER: Right. that is for the operating grant. the operating CApenses of the university. MR., KEARY: Ours must be higher than in the rest of Canada because - MR.

OTTE~"HEI~R: No, our knowledge is that we are lowest or certainly among the lowest in terms of what it costs for a full-time student equiyalent for the operation of the university. MR. NEARY: Well would they ·have to include capital expenditure? MR. OTTEXHEI~R: No, that is different. There are$ 8 million odd dollars for capital expense at the university in this year's budget,in the Department of Public Works, This al!lOunt does not include any capital expenditure. This is the regular operating cost. no capital expenditure.

There are $8 million odd in public works for capital expenditure but that is not included in this $21.25 million. MR. NEARY: The comparison I am making. Mr. Chairman. if the minister will allow me, that on the Mainland,in the private universities, the $2.000 or the $2,200,whatever it is, includes operating costs and capital. where here it does not because the capital is in the Minister of Public Works - MR.

OTTE~rtEI~R: No I do not think that that is the case but I am not intimately familiar with the system with other universities but universities that operate on getting public funds based upon a full-time student equivalent or a student equivalent formula or a per capita formula, with the universities with which one would make comparisons, that-would be for operating grants only. That would be for operating grants only. Now there may be universities whereby the O?eracing and 4495

April 12, 1973 , Tape No. 1176 NM - 4 MR. OTTENHEI~ER: the capital are . lumped together and obviously a completely different amount would have to be given then,but I think that would be very difficult to do. Certainly with this administration and I am quite sure with the previous one, the capital budget was one thing and one series of - well,maybe the s~~e series,but that was a different matter completely in negotiations. AN BON. MEMBER: One obviously affected the other, MR.

OTTEmIEIXER: Yes, the more facilities, the more students you get but this amount here per student is based only for the operating cost of the university. · We are convinced that this is a realistic figure, that it is an economic figure and it compares most favourably with other grants to other tmiversities across the country and we are told by responsible people at the university, that it is the lowest or among the lowest, The reason one can make an urtequivcc.al state!nent th~t it is the l~!est is because these formulas are worked out in slightly different ways ways in different provinces.

It is certainly among the lowest in Canada, MR. NEARY: Do not let the ExtensioB Department over there hear you say that. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Well I presume they will hear me. They are included under this too. If you do not go by this kind of a formula,what is the alternative?

If we are going to say how much, if government is going to say or this Legislature is going to say how much should be spent within the different faculties, you are getting in the area then, if we are going to have a university then obviously we have to have people in \,;horn we have confidence and as long· as the total amount .is fair and reasonable then I do not think a government or a Legislature should get into · that area of allocatirtg how much should go for the education faculty and how much for extension and how much to teach 4496 .I

April 12, 1973 Tape No. 1176 NM -5 MR. OTTENHEIXER: foreign languages and this and that. MR. NEARY: Yes but they should be brought to task for waste and extravagance though. MR. OTTENHEI~ER: The honourable gentleman mentions waste and extrava ~ance and I do not suppose there is any organization with an operating budget of $21,25 million where if you did not - where if you went through all their operations you would not find any waste and extravagance. That is human nature. That is the law of institutional nature, I have no doubt that there must be some waste there.

I have no doubt that there is some waste in just about every department oi government and every department of the former go~ernment or any other government and private enterprise or anybody else. Wherever you get large or~anizations and institutions, I do not think there is one that a cost analysis could not go through and come out and find instances, you know some instances of some waste, MR. NEARY: Mr. Snowden is the expert. MR. OTIE!IBEIMER: I do not want to get into that.

It was the Extension Department and presumably every department there has satisfied the university administration and of course they have their internal bargaining and negotiating and revamping procedures as well. But no doubt the various departments have satisfied the university administration of the validity of their claims. The university has convinced the government that the grants, based on the formula,full-time student equivalency.is fair and real is tic.

If we are going to ask to examine department by department or faculty by faculty or project by project, then certainly I do not think that tnat is the way that the university can best operate and serve the people of the province. MR. NEARY: Well Snowden could teach us all a lesson in e~pire building,easily. MR. OTTENHEIMER: That does not have a great deal to do with 4497

April 12, 1973 Tape No. 1176 . NM - 6 MR. OTTEXHEI~R: · gnvernment's request for $21.25 million for the current account of the university.

Any number of individuals could say, "He only teaches this much," or ''What is he doing, he is not doing research here or this or that?" Any large organiz2 .tion one can go through on tha~ but I think that you will have to take the approach that you have confidence in the u=iversity administration and then you assess the data they give you and you debate around something like a formula, so much per student for the operating grant, The only alternative is t~ get into the internal examination and debate and judgement of what the university should be spending in this area and what in that area and that is a task I sincerely believe the university is better qualified to do than we are as a Legislature and that we are as a Department of Education and that we are as a government.

Now there are those who think differently, obviously,but I think c.s long as your st'..!dent equivalency fcr~~l~ :!.s ;: rzc:.li:;tic one, and as long as you have confidence in the administration of the university, I think that the government is entirely justified in asking for this expenditure on that basis. MR. NEARY: Would the minister permit a question, Mr. Chairman? ~bat is the difference in the budget presented by the university and the budget presented say by the College of Trades and Technology? The College of Trades and Technology, are they expected to give more details than the university?

What wouJd be the difference and why would there be a difierence if there is any difference? MR. OTTE~~EI~ER: Well one would have to examine the acts setting them up minutely to see the difference, There is a College of Trades and Technology Act and a Co°Ilege of Fisheries Act and of course Memorial University of Newfoundland Act. The relationship let us say betwe~n the Department of Education and those two other colleges is that between the Department of Education and the university. 4J98

April 12, 1973 'Tape No. 1176 NM - 7 MR, NEARY: Well why should we tread lightly in one area and not in the other? They are equally as important, as the minister·noted. MR. OTTE~"HEL'1ER: Yes they a-re equally as important. MR. NEA..~Y: Why are we scared of the university? MR. OTTE::-RET~R: It is not a matter of being scared. Is the honourable gentleman saying that he wishes to have the salaries of the various professors and the breakdown by faculty and by department? MR. NEARY: Yes, bring it into this House. MR. OTTE:;HEI~!ER: The honourable gentleman is saying that? MR. NEARY: I am saying it and I believe it.

MR. OTTEI,HEI~R: Is that the official opposition view? MR. NEARY: I do not know. It is my own personal view. MR. OTTEXB.Er.-!ER:-· l-'.ell I am asking. MR. F. RO'n'"E: !fr. Chairw.an, could I just intetject if the minister would allow? · I certainly Yould not want to give the impression that I was advocating, I said clearly and squarely at the beginning that I can see advantages and disadvantages in publicizing the university budget.

What I was tryibg to get at •as this: WLll the minister explain who it was that brourht in this feeler in 1967, He suggested that the former Premier did bri~g this · in as sort of a feeler,"Probabl~ we should make it public, the lllliversity budget.n What I was trying to find out was what the honourable minister's stand was on that particular policy at the time. K'l.

O:TE~;F.:::I~R: As I recall it, it was to the effect that a government should have confidence in the university administr;.tion or the university and then,if they did, there was obviously no need for this internal data t6 be made public in the Legislature. If a govern~ent did not have confidence in a university administration, it would have an obligation probably, I think it would, it would have an oblization to have that detailed inforu-~tion available in the Legislature,but we have 4499

April 12, 1973 Tane 1177 .,, confidence in the administration of the 'lmiversity. If we aid not, it would be en entirely different picture. We do. The forn:er administration quite arnare.ntly did as we:)..1. :!-!y position at that time,as I recall it,was that if a government had confidence in the administration