Manitoba Hansard — 20 July 1959 (Sitting 29, 26th Legislature, 1st Session)

26-1-29

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly Of Manitoba DEBATES and - PROCEEDINGS Speaker_ The Honourable A. - W. Harrison Volume ID No. 29 July 20, 1959 lst Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. S. Evans. Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba3 Winnipeg

INDEX Monday, July 20, 1959 Introduction of Bills: No. 92 (Mr. Thompson). No. 74 (Mr. Carroll) ••••. •••. ...•••• 1095 Questions • • . • • • • . . . . • . • • . . . . . . . . . . . . . • • . . . . • . • . . . • . . . . • • . . . . . . . . . . • . . • . • • . . . • . 1095 Second Readings Bill 51,re Municipal Board (Mr. Thompson) •.•..• ••••••••• .••...• ... .•.•.•.• ..... 1096 Mr. Paulley, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Hawryluk, Mr. Thompson ..•.•..•....... 1097 Bill 52, re Utilities Board (Mr. Carroll) ..... . ....... .. .. .. .... .. .. .. .. .... .. . ... 1098 Bill 53, re Statute Law (Mr.

Carroll) ..• ••••••••.• .•• ........• ..•.. . .• ••• •. •• ..•• 1098 Committee of Supp ly Dep artment of Public Works: Statement, Mr . Willis •.••.. •. ..• ••••. ...•........•. 1098 Discussion of Statement .. .... ••. ..•.••..• •. ••.••.....•.. .•••.•..• •..... 1101 Estimates Discussion .. .•. .••. .••••••••••••••• ••.•••..• .•... .•.....•..• 1111

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o' clock, Monday, July 20th, 1959 Ope11ing Prayer by Mr. Speaker. l\P.'t. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions. Reading and Receiving Petitions. Presenting Reports of Standing and Select Committees. Notice of Motion. Introduction of Bills. HON. JOHN THOMPSON (Minister of Labour and Acting Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Virden) : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney-General, that leave be given to introduce Bill No. 92,

an Act to amend The Department of Labour Act, and that the same -be now received and read a first time. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. HON. J. B. CARROLL (Minister of Public Utilities) (The Pas) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Provincial Secretary, that leave be given to introduce a Bill No. 74, and Act to facilitate The Distribution of Gas in Greater Winnipeg, and that same be now received and read a first time. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day.

HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley) : Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to draw the attention of the Hous e to the fact that Bill 63, and Act to amend

an Act to Incorporate the "Manitoba Health Service, " is listed as being referred to the Committee on Standing Select Committee on private bills. Now, if my memory is correct, I think that when we amended this Act las.t year, it was dealt with by the Law Amendments Committee rather than the Committee on Private Bills, and it seemed to me that it would be more suitable if it was transferred from Private Bills to Law Amendm ents. And if there1s no objection to that c ours e, I would suggest we consider doing this, and do our best to notify those interested that it's trans ferred to Law Amendm ents.

I think that would be a better place to deal with it. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. Adjourned debate •..•.. MR. R. PAULLEY (Leader of the CCF Party) (Radisson) : Mr. Speaker, on Orders of the Day, a few days ago I directed certain questions to the Honourable the Minister of Labour respect ing an accident or a death in an elevator shaft, and at that the Honourable Minister informed me that the matter was under consideration of a coroner's jur y and asked deferrment until after that time. Now I wonder if the Honourable Minister can answer further today.

If he is not able to today, it would be perfectly agreeable with me to withhold, say, possibly until tomorrow. MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Speaker,· I believe I could ma ke some reply to the Honourable Lead er of the CCF on the questions which he asked a week or two ago. As he has stated, we did not wish to make any statement until the judicial inquiry by way of a coroner's inquest had been held. I think the first question was, ''When was the particular elevator on which the accident occurred last inspected?" It was last inspected on the 14th day of April of this year.

As I recall, the sec ond qu estion was, "What was the cause of the accident?" .... (In terjection) •. 11What safety devices were used?" ..• (Interjection) ... Yes. The normal required safety devices of a freight elevator were used. There are in the province at the present time about 350 freight elevators with similar devices. The frequency of accidents has been very limited in this respect, I might say; but as I say, there have been 350 with -- at the present time that operate similar devices.

There was no breach to our knowledge in the mec hanism -- no breach of the law in the devices which were on this particular elevato_r. Now, I believe the qu estion was asked ''What steps have been taken to eliminate the possibi lity of similar accidents in the future ?" We have under cons ideration at the present time by the Elevator and Hoist Board revisions in the law respecting these elevators. I understand that they will be prepared very shortly to. present to our office a verdict on their findings . This Board have been investigating this situation..

I am told that they will be recommending some changes in the mechanism of these elevators which would make it a definite necessity that the elevator stpp at the floor level at which the doors are open, and remain stationary until these doors are July 20th, 1959 Page 1095

(Mr. Thompson, cont'd.) •. •. closed. As I say, we expect that report. We lmven't recefved it yet but this Board have been working on this very problem for some considerable time� As a rather strange coincidence, the particnlar company where the accident occurred, had ordered - not that they were compelled to do so - they had ordered the new type of automatic control in April. They lmd placed an order and the installation had not yet been ·made. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the Minister for the answers that he has given me. Th.ere was one other question.

Had any of the devices been removed or tampered with? I presume that they weren't. I might say, Mr. Speaker, I read the coroner's report in respect of this. I might say, if I may, Mr. Speaker, it is rather unfortunate that the equipment which the company had on order had not been installed, otherwise this young lad would have still been with us. I appreciate the fact that the group concerned with this are taking steps to investi" gate the whole matter, because after all we have 350 elevators, as the Honourable the Minister has indicated, and we certainly don't want a repetition of this type if possible. MR.

SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. PETER WAGNER (Fisher): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question before the Orders of the Day to the Agriculture Minister. Has the inspection been done in the interlake area as far as the flood is concerned or is it under inspection at the moment? What -- how. far has it gone? HON. ERRICK F. WILLIS, Q. C. (Minister of Agriculture and Immigration) (Turtle Mount ain): I have received no report to date. I'd be glad to inform the honourable member when I do receive one. They told me they would be going up there soon. Whether they have or not, I don't know.

But I will find out and inform the member. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on proposed motion. The Honourable the First Mini ster, for second reading of Bill No. 35. The Honourable Member for St. Rose. MR. W. C. MILLER (Rhineland): Mr. Speaker, due to the unavoidable absence of the Honourable Member for St. Rose, I would ask that this matter stand. MR. SPEAKER: Stand. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, we don't usually object to having orders stand, but I would ask whether there was anyone else in the House who is prepared to speak on this Bill at the pres ent time, because, after all, this is third reading.

We have had extensive debate in the House. and at the committee stages, and while I'm not going to object to the order standing, I would re spectfully request any honourable member who feels able to speak this afternoon, if he would, and enable us to proceed with this Bill. · MR. SPEAKER: Any member wishto speak on the third reading of Bill No. 35? Order stand? COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HON. GEORGE JOHNSON, M. D. (Minister of Health and Public Welfare)(Gimli): Mr.

Speaker, in view of the decision the other day that the interested parties concerned with Bill No. 59 should be present at Law Amendments on Thursday, I would ask that this stand. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 51. The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney-General, that Bill No. 51,

an Act to establish a Municipal Board, be now read a second time. Mr. Speaker presented the motion. MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Speaker, I believe I outlined the purposes of this Board in Commit tee of the Whole. It is part of the plan to divide the work of the Municipal and Public Utility Board and establish respecting municipal matters, a Municipal Board. It calls for the discontinu ance of the Equalization and Appeal Board.

The appeals will now be heard by the Municipal Board from Courts of Revision in the province and from the Provincial Municipal Assessor who will do the equalizing of assessments in Manitoba _;_ after this plan is adopted. The duties of the Board will cover all matters relating to municipal affairs. It will deal entirely with municipal matters including the questions of the floating of debentures and so on for utilities.

One matter was raised by the Leader of the CCF when this matter came before us the other day, respecting the appeals from the Courts of Revision, I believe, on the question of assessment; and the matter was raised by him that the new Municipal Board, which had under its control cer tain municipalities which were under supervision, would probabl_y not have a proper position in Page 1096 July 20th, 1959

(Mr. Thompson, cont'd.) •• •• dealing independently with such appeals. I cannot support his view in this respect: At the present time appeals are made by the individual property owner, first to the council sitting as a Court of Revision. They are certainly an interested party and we have had 190 or200 Courts of Revision in this province for years; and their integrity in this respect has never been questioned to my knowledge. They give an independent judicial decision on the assessment of every individual appellant before them.

I do not feel that the new appeal tribunal in this respect, a Municipal Board who is much more remote from the activities of the· Council, would have a prejudice position in respect to those municipalities which are under sup ervision. There are in fact at the present time, only seven municipalities under supervision in Manitoba, and I can't see that the Municipal Board will be concerend at all with the proportion of taxation which each individual taxpayer contributes to the municipal fund.

Their concern is purely of course, as supervisors of the activities of those municipalities under supervision; is purely to pass on their budget; to consider their general problems, and there is outside of that, very little if any contact between the Municipal Board and the normal operations of those seven municipalities.

So I feel that the complaint raised by the Honourable the Leader of the CC:F is not justified, that the interests of the board as a Municipal Board having some concern over those municipalities under administration, and their duties as the appeal. board from assessment, will not conflict, and that I cannot see how we could accept his recommendation to make a change in the Bill in this respect. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to just make one further comment on that.

I can appreciate as the Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs has said that we have Courts of Revision in all of our municipalities and they -- and I agree with him on this -- do a pretty fair job. But the point that I raised at the resolution stage was, that notwithstanding that, however, there was an appeal from them to the Municipal Equalization and Appeal Board which was divorced entirely from the municipality. In other words if any individual didn't feel he was treated rigl).t by his own Court of Revision in his own municipality, then he had the further appeal to the Equali zation and Appeal Board.

Under this setup however, a resident within any municipality or juris..: diction which comes under the Municipal Board, I presume that they will take over the functions generally of a municipal council, act as the Court of Re visions and there will be no appeal from them such as there was previously to the Equalization and Appeal Board of the individual in any municipality he was not subjected to supervision.

And that·was my main point; I appreciate fully the fact that the Minister has pointed out that all of the municipalities have their own Courts of Revision, but there was an appeal from that by any citizen who felt that he had been aggrieved against; but in this pilrticular case there will be no appeal at all, because the Municipal Board setup under this legislation will be the Board who sits as a Court of Revision, technically at least, from which there will be no appeal, and that was the -- other than the stated case of law I presume, which could go to the Queens Bench. MR. D. L.

CAMPBELL (Leader of the Opposition) (Lakeside): Before the Honourable Mini ster replies, there is one point that I wanted to aske and that is simply: Is it correct to say in general terms that .this Act simply takes over the municipal functions of the Municipal and Public Utilities Board, and are the procedures and jurisdiction authority, etc.'· practically the same in this case as before? And in particular the provisions with regard to debt adjustment for muni cipalities? MR. J. M. HAWRYLUK (Burrows): Mr.

Speaker, could the Honourable Minister tell us whether it is the intention of the Government to have the present Chairman of the Municipal and Public Utilities be the Chairman of this Board, Mr. McDonald, or any other of its members? MR. SPEAKER: The Minister is closing the debate. MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Speaker in reply to the Honourable the Leader of the CCF, I should point out that to my knowledge the Municipal Board does not deal with the administrative details or sit as a Court of Revision for any municipality. The seven municipalities under supervision have their own councils who act as the Court of Revision.

There are two municipalities under total administration at the present time and the administrator is the Court of Revision and he is named by the Provincial Government, not by the Public Utility Board. So I believe the Honour able Leader of the CCF need have no fears in this respect -- there is no conflict of interest in the duties of the new Municipal Board with respect to appeals on assessment. In answer to the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition, I would say, yes, I believe July 20th, 1959 Page 1097

(Mr. Thompson, cont'd.) ••. everything that he has said is correct. The new board is taking over the municipal functions generally speaking in addition to these assessment appeal functions which I mentioned_of the original Municipal and Public Utility Board. Regarding the naming of a Chairman � - the new Municipal Board, I can only answer the Honourable Member from Burrows this way, that that is a matter of government policy which will be decided after the board is established, after the Bill has been pai;; sed. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR.

SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No. 52. The Honourable Minister of Public Utili- ties. MR. CARROLL: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move seconded by the Minister of Health and Pub - lie Welfare that Bill No. 52,

an Act to establish a Public Utilities Board be now read a second time. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. CARROLL: Mr. Speaker, I think much of the explanation which has gone before ap plies also to this Bill. The Public Utilities Board will be taking over the Pi,iblic Utilities function of the Municip::tl and Public Utility Board.

The only major change which is being made in this Bill is that, ;where rate base is a factor in determining just and reasonable return, we establish that the rate base would be established by computing -- at least the rate base is computed on the historic cost of assets prudently acquired, less depreciation, plus a reasonable amount for work ing capital. And the reason for this change, of course, was that it was an important part of the report on the Greater Winnipeg Gas Distribution Commission and that was one reason why it was set up in this particular Bill.

The Board as you know is burdened with so many investigations and must make decisions with respect to such a wide variety of activity that it is almost impos sible for them to give the individual time and attention to each case which they really should. We feel in this way they will be able to specialize to the point where there will be a more effici ent functioning of the Department. MR. D. ORLIKOW (st. John's): Mr. Speaker, I move seconded by the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks the debate be adjoilrned. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR.

SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No. 53. The Honourable Minister of Public Utili- ties. MR. CARROLL: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move seconded by the Minister of Labour that Bill No. 53 and Act to amend Certain Provisions of the statute Law now be read a second time. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried .. COl\iMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Public Works that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a com mittee to consider of the supply to be granted Her Majesty. Mr.

Speaker presented the motion and after a voice voted declared the motion carried, and requested the Honourable Member for St. Matthews take the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we call the next item, perhaps it may be of benefit to the commit tee to draw your attention to the signs at the end -- it has no direct connection perhaps with the meeting of the committee, but one says "proceed with caution" and the other one says that "if you're going on a detour begin four hundred feet from here." Department of Public Works. Ad ministration. :r.rn.. WILLIS: Mr.

Speaker, I desire to make a brief statement on the estimates before we get into the details, and I thought it appropriate that the new Conservative Government should bring in a very large sign such as the one that you see before you, which says "Proceed with Caution. " I suggest to you that that is a good conservative principle; but I suggest to you that we have not proceeded with the same degree of caution-hesitation as the previous government.

We have adopted a new system of signs and I have brought a few of them into the Chamber just so that you could see the difference in, particularly the new signs and the old signs which we formerly had. If you direct your attention to the large yellow sign you will see the one that we now use and the size that we now use for directing people at new construction, and you will see that it is more than four times as large as the previous one. The previous one being the one Page 1098 July 20th, 1959

(Mr. Willis, cont'd.) •... "Begin Detour .... ", and if it had said "Proceed with Caution" it would have been the same size as that one as well. You will see the one over on the side of the Opposition, the two fours, they are placed there merely to show the standard sign - the old size and the new size; and you will see that the new size is approximately twice as large as the old size. You will see, too, the new signs for the Trans-Canada, you will see the small sign which we used to have, on number 1.

You will see the smaller of the green signs, which is the standard Trans-Canada sign now, reflectorized which is twice as large as the old one; and you will see the one for the Trans-Canada on the division, and for cities, which indicates the larger size again, which is approximately three times as large as the former sign. You will see behind me the dif ference in the signs which we used in the City; the old six there indicates the size which was formerly used; the new one indicated the size which is now used in the City, which is approxi mately three times as large as the previous signs.

In general we have done two things. On the average we have made our signs three times as large as they were formerly, and we have arrang ed so that there will be three times as many signs as there were previously. The second feature I want to mention as a preliminary today, and I only have five features that I desire to mention.

The second one is in regard to planning -- and we have discussed this here previously -- whereby we have secured the services of the Automotive Safety Foundation who are now in the Province of Manitoba planning the future of our highways and it is the Associ ation -- the organization which formerly planned the highways of some twenty-three states of the union, including the State of Minnesota. They also planned the highways for the Province of On tario, which is the only province in effect that has an actual planning division other than the one that we are now creating in Manitoba.

It may interest you to know as to what a planning organization does, and the methods which it uses in order to bring about its plans; and I should like to read you some of the features in regard to this organization and to what they are doing in the Province of Manitoba at the present time. There are fifteen points on which they are trying to improve our present method

(1) Traf fic counts - to determine the total vehicle usage of all of our highways in the system.

(2) Classi fication counts - to determine the ratio of trucks, all types of vehicles and axle spacings as well.

(3) They are making a complete highway inventory to itemize the full detail of the physical pro perties, such as gradient, curvature, slopes, drainage structures, railway crossings, etc.,

(4) They are having a geographic economic study to determine highway usage and its effect on the economics of the Province. These include population densities, forecasts, shifts and their effect on future traffic.

(5) Surface Maintenance Cost Study - to give information to correctly deter mine the proper scheduling of reconstruction in conjuction with all the other factors.

(6) Pave ment Condition Survey - to correctly log and tabulate each mile of pavement, determine present conditions and life expectancy.

(7) Establishment of divisions or control sections - in order to pinpoint all data and give a common reference in that geographic section. ( 8) Vehicle registrations.

(9) Gasoline and diesel fuel consumption.

(10) Highway classification - to define and pinpoint a primary; a secondary and a tertiary system, establishing criteria for each system.

(11) To establishstandardl3for each system, determining both the safety features and the structural speei fications.

(12) Bridge inventory - to determine the size, class, structural condition and adequacy of our bridges.

(13) Accident logs - to plot all recorded accidents by location, and when possible by cause, to permit all possible safety in highway design.

(14) Price index analysis, to deter mine average costs over a long range program so that a factual estimate of total costs can be determined.

(15) Finance history, revenue and expenditure. Those are the basic matters which this planning organization is seeking information on now within the Province of Manitoba, so that in the future we may have a properly planned highway system. The third step taht we have tried to take is to improve the quality of our highways. Quality in this sense means mostly a better foundation for the road, and we have in many cases increased the foundation and strengthened the foundation of our highways. When I last spoke to you I gave you son:ie instances in this regard, and I now give you some more.

The Highway No. 5 from Eden to Norgate, some 22 miles, in 1958-59 this was reconstructed, the base course then used was 3, 025 tons per mile. In 1959 and 160 on the same highway, from Norgate to Ochre River, 18 miles, we increased that amount of base course to 6, 430 tons per mile from the base which we had previously of only 3, 025 tons per mile -- we more than doubled the strength of the highway. Then again on H�hway No. 8, in 1958-59 on the north -- on Highway No. 8, north perimeter to July 20th, 1959 Page 1099

{Mr. Willis, cont'd.) .••• the Clandeboye corner, 18 miles, the base course there used in that year was 4, 910 tons per mile; then in the following year when we came to power, on the same highway, Clandeboye corner to Whytewold corner, we did 14 miles, and there the base was 6, 700 tons per mile base course as compared with the previous 4, 910.

On Highway No. 10, in 1958-59, Clear Lake to Rackham Road, there was built 8. 6 miles, the base course there was 4, 960 tons per mile; this year 1959-60 on Highway No. io, same location, Rackham to Cameron School, 17. miles, base course we used was 6, 540 compared with the previous 4, 960. Then again on Highway No. 10, in 1958-59, Swan River to Birch River, 26 miles, base course, 2, 600 tons; in 1959-60 same Highway No. 10, Birch River to Mafeking, 15 miles, we used 4, 970 tons per mile as compared with the previous 2, 600 tons per mile on the same road.

And so, by and large, we have increased the quality, the strength, of our highways. As a fourth point I want to bring to your-memory the fact that for the first time in Manitoba we called for tenders in regard to highways in the fall. We had previously advised the contractors as to the roads which were to be rebuilt; they were cognizant with the situation, had inspected the ground and were ready to bid. They did so.

The result was that contracts awarded from October to July 14th were 141; the previous year for the same time the contracts let were 101; and the year before that for the same period, October to July 14th, contracts let were only 77. In other words, we've just about doubled the number of contracts let, and as you were good enough to grant us some $33, OOO, OOO. we have now contracted for more than $23, OOO, OOO. of that amount. So that we think, by having earlier contracts, we have been able to increase greatly the amount of work which will be done during that period.

As a fifth point I want to point out now, that this year we are granting to municipalities some $800, OOO. more than the previous year. We have in addition to that, because of this ex penditure, granted to the various municipalities much larger grants in particular in the percentage wise and otherwise. On secondary highways our grants are no longer two-thirds of the cost, but we now pay three-quarters of the cost, where formerly it was but two-thirds.

We are now build ing into literally hundreds of towns and villages in Manitoba, access roads from the highways up to a total mileage of four miles free of cost so that they may have proper access to their towns and villages in general on the same basis as the highway which they left. It's not always possible but that is the general rule. If it is gravel highway, then the access road is gravel. If it is an asphalt highway, then again the access road is asphalt.

In addition to these first two items, we have increased our bridge grants until now the government's share on bridges - large bridges - is up to 80% of the cost of these large bridges where ordinarily before that it was but 50, and in some cases 60% of the cost. We have recognized too the necessity for more work in regard to snow-plowing, and we have increased our grants to the municipalities which formerly had a top of $500. per municipality, they have now been changed to $1, OOO.

Then again formerly when we were building a highway, a trunk highway or a secondary highway -- ordinarily we made it the responsibility of the muni cipality to buy the right-of-way, but now it becomes a part of the cost. In result the province pays most of the cost of the highway and of the right-of-way; and in the case of secondary high ways, of course, the province pays 75% of the cost; and in the case of trunk highways, of course, the province pays the full cost of the highway. So I have desired in the preliminary statement to point out only what we've tried to do as to five features of our highways: 1.

In regard to our signs -- three times as large and three times as many. In regard to our planning, for the first time we will have a planning system in l\ianitoba which will get you ultimately more highways for less money than ever before, and also have them more than every before, highways in the proper location, built in proper succession and built at the proper time. Thirdly, we have in our highways particularly increased the strength of our highways by putting in more base course so that they will last longer.

We do this because we have highways in Manitoba wher_e the cost of maintenance per mile per year is above $1, 200. ; we also have in Manitoba highways, the cost of maintenance of which is under $100. per year, because they were properly built. Then again through earlier contracts we have been able to build a larger quantity of roads in Manitoba than were previously built, as shovvn by the figures which I have given you.

And it is this item that I have pointed out to you, that through municipal aid, we have not only increased the amount available to the municipalities by $800, OOO. this year but we've also increased the amounts and the percentages of money available for secondary roads, Page 1100 July 20th, 1959

(Mr. Willis, cont'd.) .•.. for snow plowi.ng, for right-of-way, and we have taken the full cost of access roads into the towns and villages of the province. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister if he would give us a list of the highways to which the weight increases that we have just agreed to in the Bill of the Honourahle the Minister of Public Utilities, apply. MR . WILLIS: Those were published in the newspaper, and I don't have them here with me but I can certainly get them for you. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, I am glad the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition raised that point, because, while not a defender of his regime by any way, shape or form, I think it was somewhat peculiar that these highways all of a sudden, unless I am mistaken, all of a sud den without any comprehensive amount of work being done on them in the brief period of time before the Leader of the Opposition -- or since the Leader of the Opposition was the head of the government and the present government taken over, that these highways are now designated as highways -- classified as Class A highways.

I say it sounds rather peculiar because I well re call my honourable friend, the present Minister telling us that before we could reac·h standardi zation in many respects with other jurisdictions, it would be necessary to rebuild to a large de gree our whole highway system. So I too am very interested in that, because it doesn't appear to me that on these highways which just simply by Order-in-Council or legislation have now been elevated in their class or category, has made any material improvement at all on the roads con cerned.

And if, as the present Minister formerly pointed out to us inthe House, that the roads were not capable of carrying heavier loads due to their construction, it does seem peculiar to me that within the space of twelve months that these roads are that much better, and I certainly would like to know of these roads so that we may consider them even further. Now the Minister in his general remarks mentioned to us the fact that the last legislature were kind enough.to supply them with the huge amount of $33, OOO, OOO. in order to -- by way of capital supply for road development.

If I have the figure here correctly, he informs us that he has let out contracts to the degree of $23, OOO, OOO. - or roughly two-thirds of the total amount. We are now .• (Interruption) .. I had nothing at all to do with that, Mr. Chairman. (Interjection, That will do, that will do.) .. We are now reaching the latter part of July and still contracts to the degree of 23 millions out of 33 millions granted at the last special session, apparently have not been let.

It does appear to me, unless there's reasons because of shortage of equipment or the program of our honourable friends opposite was a little bit more ambitious than realistic, that contracts more closely amounting to the 33 millions of dollars should have been let. Now the Minister also told us that 141 contracts had been let -- I presume since last October up until the present time -- and that by comparison with the previous year where there were only 101 con tracts let and that was after the -- as I would understand it - the legislature actually in its regu lar session approved of the contracts.

So it seems to me that the net gain has been 40 contracts. I think it would be interesting to the committee to hear from the Honourable the Minister of Pub lic Works how much of the -- or how many of the contracts which have been let of these 141 con tracts, or contracts valued at $23, OOO, OOO. , have actually been completed, and where they have been completed, because we appreciate with him the necessity of the greatest speed possible in building our highways.

I particularly would like to ask the Minister - it may be that I should discuss this under a particular item, but as it is we're dealing with the general question of administration - I would like to ask the Minister, and he wi.11 most likely have it later, but in case he hasn't it for later - I would like to ask .the Honourable the Minister of Public Works what is the intention of the depart ment in respect of Highway No. 4 East?

I've been down there on several occasions recently, and if I'm not mistaken it's one of those highwayB' that has now been disignated as a Class A highway, and if that is the case, we certainly are going to be into trouble insofar as No. 4 East is concern ed, because I think that the road is in deplorable condition and giving every evidence of falling away at the sides. It is true that there is some work being done on that particular road but it's only of a patch-up nature and if, as I say, Mr.

Chairman, that is one of the roads that has been disignated now as a Class A highway, the Minister is really i.n for trouble, I think. I would also ask the Minister in reference to Highway No. 15. I think the honourable gentle man will recall that before the present route of the Trans-Canad.a Highway East, or No. 1 East, was decided upon, there was considerable pressure for the -- what we now call No. 15 to be used July 20th, 1959 Page llOl

{Mr. Paulley, cont'd.) ..•. as the route east out of Winnipeg. And at that particular time, one of the reasons, so it was stated, that No. 1 East would be placed in its present location was due to the length of muskegs and swamps over which it would be necessary to travel if No. 15 route was chosen. I might say, Mr. Chairman, I went over that road a couple of times in recent weeks and where these swamp conditions or muskeg conditions were the barrier, it appears to me as though a very substantially good road has been built.

And Pd like to ask of the Minister - the surfacing of the road I think has now been completed to Anola, and from Anola to Elma still has to be done -- and I would like to know of the Minister whether there is any intention of extending the road from Elma east to Rennie to link up with Highway No. 4, because it would appear to me that this would be a very, very convenient road straight east from the City of Winnipeg. Another matter I draw to the attention of the Minister - he mentions uniform grants to municipalities for secondary road construction of 75%.

Now I don't like rehashing the last elec tion, but I did find on quite a number of occasions that spokesmen, presumably representing the Conservative cause, were telling us of different basis of grants in different municipalities for road construction purposes. I know in my own constituency of Radisson - we were new of course, but the proposal was 75% in respect of St. Mary's and St. Anne's Road. I understand that the candidates in the Municipality of La Verendrye and in particularly the Rural Municipality of Ritchot which adjoins the Rural Municipality of St.

Vital, were telling the electors there that "If we are fortunate enough to form a government, with me as a representative," said the spokesman, "we can assure you of 100% contribution in respect of the highway just after it crosses the border of the constitutency of Radisson. " Whether they presumed at that time that I would be returned or not, I don't know; but I do suggest that that sort of thing doesn't help out the government, be it a Conservative or Liberal or any other type of government, but I do say that that was the case during the recent election.

Now I would like the Minister to get that information in respect of the Class "A" highways as conveniently as possible, because before the estimates are considered fully, before we can be in a position to consider the possible effects of the increasing of road limits on our present highways, that information should be before the comm.ittee. MR. ORLIKOW: Mr. Chairman, I would like to direct a question to the Minister. I would have raised it under the estimates of the Utilities Committee except that it was after 11 o'clock.

In the Social Allowances Act which we're passing we provide that assistance would be given to all the people of Indian and Metis origin in this province, and I certainly don't disagree with it, but I think that much better than assistance is ''work for wages." Now this Department of Public Works - and I'm thinking particularly of the roads to resources program, the $15, OOO, OOO. which we discussed the other day -- will be building roads as for example the Telephone System will be building lines and the Hydro-Electric System will be building transmission lines in those areas close to -- adjacent to, at least - to where a very large percentage of the Indian and Metis ·people of this province live.

Now in the report which Mr. Legasse prepared on this problem great em phasis is made on the need for providing employment for the people of Indian and Metis origin. And I wonder, Mr. Chairman, in the ordinary course of events of course the department decides on building "X" number of miles of roads and calls for contracts, accepts the lowest tender, I presume, and there is no provisions made as to who will build the roads - the contract()r hires the best people possible. I would think, Mr.

Chairman, in the light of the problems which have been brought to the attention of the public and the government, that as much as possible be done to encourage the employment for wages of people of Indian and Metis origine.

I wonder if - maybe the Minister isn't prepared at this time to report -- but I am wondering if he could tell us whether his department is giving consideration to what might be done to encourage the employ ment of people of Indian and Metis origin by this department, or by any other department, be cause it comes under the jurisdiction of the Minister in his capacity as Minister of Agriculture, the whole problem of Indian and Metis comes under his jurisdiction in any case, Mr. Chairman. l'VlR. CHAIRMAN: 1 {

a) Passed. (

b) MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, aren't we going to have answers to these questions? Is the Honourable Minister refusing to answer? (Interjection) ..... Why were you sitting there then? MR. WILLIS: Because I though that many of you would make speeches, and then as our custom in this House, that I could answer them all at the same time. And I am sure there are . Page 1102 July 20th, 1959

(Mr. Willis, cont'd. ) .... many others. The Leader of the CCF Party has spoken about the question of the new regulations and al though it doesn 1t belong in my department ... (Interjection - it ought to be!) I will be glad to bring in the details in regard to it.

We had a very careful investigation in regard to those roads which we thought would be able to stand the increased weights having in mind that as far as they were concerned, that in many cases you not only have new weights you also have new trucks and a different division and distribution of the weight; consequently we were better able for two reasons to increase the weights - 1. They had changed the distribtuion of weight in most of the trucks; and secondly, we had built many better highways in the meantime, and we thought the time had come when they should be changed.

They referred to us - The Department of Public Utilities referred the matter to us - to have us say what increases we thought they could make at this time without wrecking our highways, and we have been very careful in that regard -- and after due investigation our engineers reported that the basis on which they thought would be pro per for us to increase those weights and on an engineering basis those weights were permitted to be increased.

It's always difficult to get a Department of Highways to approve any increase in weights and we were hesitant in regard to it, and we did have full investigation and came out with the present weights which have been permitted. The Leader of the CCF Party has indicated that we have but $23, OOO, OOO. in contracts out of $33, OOO, OOO. , but I would point out to him that half of the season's still before us.

If he'll read the newspapers he will see that on practically every occasion we're still calling for con tracts and for tenders, and that will continue as well, and we1ll be letting them for months still to come. In regard to how many contracts are completed, there would be a number completed but not a large number because in general, contracts when they're let, they usually have a dead line of around October the lst in regard to construction and we give them a contract on that size so that they will complete about that time.

We've had in some places a great deal of rain and in other places we've had a good run, and the amount completed is reasonably satisfactory. No. 15 East, as far as -- I remember the old controversy in regard to it. I was not the one who esta blished the present location of No. 1 Highway - and I know the controversy there as well, and as far as we are concerned, we can only say to you that Elma East is now under investigation, and we don't know as to whether the highway will be built there or not, but that will depend upon the result of that investigation.

It would be our_ hope however, that it would be built, although it might have to be built in a slightly different location to avoid that muskeg, but a highway in that location is necessary we believe, and we're working toward that end. I do not know what the candidates said in regard to secondary highways if they were going to be 100%, I know that some candidates in my area assured the people there that they would put me out of public life forever, and you know, those assurances come from different people at election time, they1re not confined to any one party I don't think.

I think our party will have to take a little blame for exuberance of spirit maybe in regard to those matters and just as the man that assured everyone that I was going to be wiped out, and that the province would be rid of me as far as public life was concern ed. Of course his candidate lost his deposit, so nobody took him too seriously in that regard. Speaking to the question of the member for St. John's in regard to giving work to Metis and others. We are employing quite a few at the present time.

We will endeavour to employ more in future and in particular they are quite useful in cutting a line, scrubbing out a right-of way in order to daylight for future construction. So that we have in mind the desirability of giv ing employment to these men rather than to have .them on relief, and while they're not contractors, and while most work is done now by large machines rather than individual Metis, we recognize that we do have a responsibility which we're trying our best to fulfil. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, the Minister said that we have built many better high ways in the meantime.

Does he mean in the meantime since this government has taken office? MR. WILLIS: I would give credit to the previous government for having built some good highways. MR. CAMPBELL: Yes, but he gave this as the reason for increasing the -- that the weight limits could be increased. MR. WILLIS: They were gradually working up reconstruction of the highways -- gradually working up to -- until finally they arrive at a place where we could safely, we thought, give in creased weights to trucks. July 20th, 1959 Page ll03.

MR. CAMPBELL: What is the maximum now, Mr. Chairman? MR. WILLIS: 7' 200 pounds -- 72, OOO pounds. MR. CAMPBELL: 72, OOO, and has the Minister yet got the list of those htghways? MR. WILLIS: No, I can get them very easily. They .did appear in the paper. They cover a whole

section of the province. I'll be glad to get them for you. MR. CAMPBELL: Well could we have those, Mr. Chairman, soon, because I know there are people listening in who can get them in a very short time ••... MR. WILLIS: Yes, well I'm hopeful that they will take the tip. MR. CAMPBELL: Well, I thought they would have had them in by now. MR. WILLIS: I have not received them. MR. CAMPBELL: The, the remarks that I have to make, Mr. Chairman, have some re lationship to the particular highways-and I would like to have them before we proceed, although I don't necessarily have to have them for this item.

I'd just as leave discuss them when we come to-the highway item later on. MR. PAULLEY: One thing that intrigued me, Mr. Chairman, the Honourable the Minister was talking about the distribution of the weight limit on the trucks. Is this a recent change inso far as the structure of trucks are concerned because it's my impression that it's been rather gradual, or have we just through being gradual, arrived at the point this particular year? MR. WILLIS: Recently there have been increases which have been helpful, but it's grad ual -- it has been a gradual process.

And also the improvement of our highways has been a gradual process until finally the two meet and we decide that it's safe now to grant these increases in weight. strictly on an engineering basis, I didn't have any set opinion in regard to them, but the engineering advice and the engineering recommendations were placed before me in regard to it. The ultimate decision of course is the Minister of Public Utilities. MR. CAMPBELL: The ultimate decision, Mr.

Chairman, of course is either the govern ment who could increase them if they wanted to together by Order-in-Council before they -- no,._ I guess it would take a change in legislation. The ultimate authority is therefore the House, but the government takes responsibility for them because they bring in the Bill.

And the point that is diff icult for some of us to see is that if the highways were as bad as the honourable members who now form the government were telling us before the election, how could they be capable of standing an increase of that kind in the very short time after these elections; and that's one reason why we would like to get as well the figures as to what highways have been completed and what contracts have been completed, because my guess would be that there is not a single one of these highways where the weights have been so greatly increased, that has been completed since this government went into office; therefore the part that's now going to carry 72, OOO pounds was built before the time that my honourable friends were _criticiz ing them so bad.

And I'll -- reserve further remarks on that until we get the information, Mr. Chairman, but I want to ask the Minister with regard to these -- the quality of these roads that the Minister has now built. Oh yes, and besides, Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to put in a disclaimer too, about this change in the trucks, because my understanding is that tandem axles and even triple axles and all of those have been in effect for a long time, and it seems to me that the whole difference is just a case of how many axles and how much rubber; and those are exactly the same factors that we took into con sideration when we decided a while back th at 54, OOO pounds was the maximum that these roads could stand, and I remember there was some opposition to going that high at that time.

However, with regard to these heavier roads when the -- or stronger roads as I think my honourable friend likes to call them -- when he talks about the Eden to Norgate and the Norgate to Ochre River, and others where he's given us examples. Are these tonnages the base only, or do they include the black top? I think those are . � .••... MR. WILLIS: .••.. the base in each case. MR. CAMPBELL: And is thE_l black top the same as before?, MR. WILLIS: In m<¥lt cases it is. MR. CAMPBELL: Well, is it in these cases where the honourable member .•..• . MR.

WILLIS: I understand it is, but I was speaking only about the base course. MR. CAMPBELL: But it would need to have the surface as well to have actual compari sons? MR. WILLIS: As far as the actual comparison is concerned, the other things would be Page ll04 July 20th, 1959

(Mr, Willis, cont'd. ) .... equal but the main change was in regard to the increase in the base. l'll l;I@ �lad to give you all of this which appeared in the newspapers in regard to the new highwa;rs ill qJlfl�·t;i.on, and also the increased weights which are now permitted and which were announc ed on July the 8th, covering "32 Provincial Trunk Highways have been designated as Class "A" hig!lways under the Highway Traffic Act are now permitted for full use of five actual vehicles, th@ gross weight of 72, OOO pounds .

Change in designation was made because it has been found that certain areas of the province were becoming isolated economic units, because incoming and outgoing trucks could not move across our border without reloading due to Manitoba's previous maximum weight load of 44, OOO gross -- 44, OOO gross . The change, I'm merely reading, the change in designation of the highways will result in several benefits, notable: 1. The consumer or producer will not have to pay the cost of reloading at the boundary. 2. The consumer or pro ducer will not have to pay the cost of reload -- pardon me. 2.

A nu mber of creameries and can ning plants will now be ab_le to compete more readily for eastern marke ts. 3. Operators will now be able to get 72, OOO pounds gross licenses rather than the 44, OOO gross licens es as issued previously. Certain roads have been used for test purposes with the 72, OOO gross maximum, and it has been found that there was no undue damage to the highways because of the extra weight allowed -- spread over more axles, that's the point I was making -- spread over more axles. Because of this the province can now designate over roads for the heavier gross weights.

This will permit the truck movement of certain oil bearing cereals into Manitoba and the export of livestock, Selkirk wheat and other such produce, into the United States without reloading. Here is the weight

schedule for the Class 11A11 highway as set out in Sub-section 3 of

Section 47 of the Highway Traffic Act. (

a) Truck, tractor or bus , (

i) Truck or tractor two-axle assemblies maximum gross weight 26, OOO pounds; (ii) Bus two-axle ass emblies maximum gross weight 28, OOO pounds ; (iii) Truck, tractor or bus, three-axle ass emblies, maximum gross weight 40, OOO pounds ; (iv) Semi-trail er, three-axle assemblies, maximum gross weight 44, OOO pounds ; (

v) Semi-traile1• truck, four-axle asse mblies, maximum gross weight 58, OOO pounds (

b) Trailers, full trailer, minimum of two-axle ass emblies, maximum gross weight 32, OOO pounds ; (

d) Maximum gross weight any combination of vehicles 72, OOO pounds; (

e) Axle assem blies, maximum gross weight of any axle ass embly 18, OOO pounds (ii) Maximum gross weight of any group of axle ass emblies where the distance between the centres of the leading and rear axle of any group of two or more axle ass emblies is between 40 inches and 10 feet, 32, OOO pounds; (iii) Maximum weight of any axle ass embly for inch width of tires on the wheels of that axle ass embly 500 pounds. These highways in their entirety have been designated as Class "A", 1. lA, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 11, 12, 12G, l2V," •.. (Interjection) O. K.

"l, lA, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 11, 12, 12 G, 12V, 14, 14A, 17 , 18, 25, 28, 31, 32, 52, 59, 75, 89. These highways have been designated "in part" as Class A: No. 6 from Winnipeg to the Junction with PTH No. 7. No. 7 from junction PTH No. 6 to Komarno . No. 9 from Winnipeg to Selkirk. No. 10 from the U. S. Boundary to the southern limit of Riding Mountain National Park and the northern limit of Riding Mountain Park to Swan Ri ver. No. 13, Elm Creek to Carman. No. 15 from Winnipeg to the junction PTH No. 12. No. 21 PTH No. 1 to the southern boundary of the province. No. 34 from PTH No. 1 to PTH No. 3.

No. 83 from the southern boundary of the province to the junction of No. 1 and from Foxwarren to Swan River. " Those are the highways. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, that statement means then that the ones iri the first group 1, IA, 8, 2, 3, 4, 8, etc. are the ones that wherethe.whole highway is now eligible for these increased loads ; and the second group are the ones that are in part, the parts mentioned by the Honourabie the Minister. Mr.

Chairman, I was wondering about the figure 44 that the -- 44, OOO pounds that the Honourable the Minister used beca use, is it not the fact that the gross weight, and I'm thinking of maximum in all these cases, was not the maximum before 54, OOO pounds ? MR. WILLIS: ..•..•.. , the memo randum says 44, OOO gross; which I assume is correct. I'm not entirely certain about that though. MR.

CAMPBELL: I don't supp ose the Minister's responsible for what happens in other provinces, but when he mentioned about parts of this province being isola ted because of the trucks not being able to go in with their full load, is that not the fact so far as this province is concerned with trucks coming in from the west? Does Saskatchewan allow weights such as these.? MR. WILLIS: I'm not certain of the basis in regard to Saskatchewan, but I would think July 20th, 1959. Page 1105

(Mr. Willis, cont'd. ) .... they were -- they have been in the past probably slightly lower than ours because they haven't had as good roads as we have, in general. Consequently they have not had the standards as high as we have. In general, Ontario has had higher ones than we have and that's why when they meet them at the boundary, they've had to unload coming from Ontario, because under our law previously, we couldn't take their loads and we couldn't permit them to come into Manitoba with the loads which were permissible in general, in the Province of Ontario. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister would not say that Saskatchewan's Trans Canada Highway has not been as good as ours for some time, would he; and when he says that the -- we haven't had as good as Ontario in general, I'm sure he wouldn't say that our Trans Canada hasn't been as good as the one it meets in Ontario, for some time. MR. WILLlS: That is not of course the complete answer in regard to it but that is part of the answer. But it's a matter of the discretion of course, of the individual provinces to deter mine upon what they want.

If you ask me as to whether Saskatchewan's Trans-Canada is as good as ours, I would say that in certain sections it's . not nearly as good as ours is . In general we have been building highways in the Province of Manitoba to a standard higher than the Trans Canada; but when they decided on the standards of the highways for No. 1, the Trans-Canada, it was necessary for the Province of Saskatchewan to come up to that standard; but as far as we were concerned in ma ny cases we were already above that standard and therefore there was that difference as far as they are concerned.

Credit must be given to Saskatchewan because they were the first people to finish the Trans-Canada in Canada, and great credit is due to them in that regard. Certainly they are building much better roads at the present time than they did in those days when the Trans-Canada was started. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I think that I will reserve my remarks because I have a good bit of detail with regard to these particular roads and this question that I've been asking about the ones that are covered by the new order allowing the weight increases. It would be better to take them up I think when we reach that item.

But on the general plan, I -·the Minister's general statement when he tells about what is bei ng done, - I can't refrain from saying once again, how the Honourable the Minister has recently been telling us how much better roads they're going to build; how greatly this planning is going to help out the situation, - it reminds me of something that happened a few years back. I turned back to a radio speech that my Hon ourable Friend the present Minister of Agriculture and Acting Minister of Public Works made back in September 1945.

That's quite a while ago now, and I was thinking it was interesting to compare his comments of that time with his present ones, because I can say one thing for my honourable friend, he stays very consistant in his promises. This is an excerpt fromther adioaddress and I would be quite willing to read more of it, but I'm sure this is not taken out of context, the heading of the address is "What Coalition Means to Manitoba". He says, "We are not content with the inadequate roads which our people have had in the past and practical plans have been made so that they will be greatly improved in the future.

We refuse to be judged by the slow progress of the past, ask you to believe that we have made practical plans that will bring vastly greater services to the rural life of this province. Greater progress will be made in the next five years along these lines than has been made in the last 25 years of our provincial history.

The plans have been made, the money is available, we seek only your mandate to proceed." That was back in 1945, and I thought I'd look along and find out what had happened a little later, and away four years after that, four years after the honourable gentleman was very pleased with what had been taking place. We had good roads in the Province of Manitoba then. This again is a radio - copy of a radio speech that was delivered in October the llth, 1949.

Once again it's anexcierpt, but it's not out of context I can assure you. 1il:t would not seem proper or usual if I did not in the course of this short speech refer particularly to the building of roads. This present government within: the past four years has increased the grants.to munipalities for the ff lll'poSe of building market �oads by 400%. " That's even more spectacular than what we had told us today -- "The consequence is that this province now has in that short period thousands of miles of municipal gravelled market roads.

Our en:gineers have given the municipalities advice in regard to methods of building better and better roads; and our department has given them money grants for the building and gravelling of these roads up to 50% of the cost. It's consequently true that our system of municipal market roads, namely 24 -foot top gravelled roads, has given to our people transportation facilities which far excell those of Page ll06 July 20th, 1959.

(Mr. Campbell , cont'd. ) .... any other western provinces'.' -- And this is the impor tant part . - "Highways which have been built by this government since the last election are of the quality standard above that of any other western province, giving riding comfort and safety to our tax payers and touris ts; and giving assuranc e that they can be kept clear of snow in the winter with out great effort and that the cost of maintenance in the future will be largely eliminated.

If you would view the standard of these new roads then you have but to drive south from the City of Winni peg on Highway #75, south from the City of Brandon on Highway No. 10, or east from the towns of Minnedosa or Gladstone on Highway #4, you will see new roads built to a standard similar to that of.the good United states roads.

" My honourable friend was pretty proud of the roads in those days, that's a long time ago and I'm sure that the standard has been maintained in every way since so far as new construction is concerned; but in the part that has had new construction, has not had new construction, and there .are some in thos e areas, the part that has not had new construction, the same road is there still, it's got to carry this weight that the Minister is talking about.

And I just ask the Minister if he really thinks -- because after all , no matter what the engineers tell him, he's got to take some res ponsibility in this matter - does he rea lly think that all the distance of Highway No. 2, and all the distance of Highway No. 4, to mention only two, are rea dy for that kind of road. If he does, why did he say so many unkind things about them just a short year and a half or less ago? MR. WILLIS: Mr. Chairman, I see no us eful purp ose in threshing this "old straw " which the Leader of the Opposition is so anxious to do.

If we were to probably repeat the spee ches which were delivered in this House by the gentleman who sits on his left, it would be much more inter esting; or if we could repeat the spee ches of the gentleman who sits on his right in criti cism of the Leader of the Opposition they might be interest ing too. But I don't think it serves any us eful purpo se to thresh this old straw . In 1945 it's true I made that speech which was tr ue, but these I would remind the honourable member are the "dear dead days beyond reca ll ".

What I said then was true, the only two good highways that Manitoba had were built at that time. No. 10 Highway, which is practically as good as th e day it was built . It was built 12 years ago, during the time when those who sit opposite said "Oh, this year we've had trouble with frost boils" and I don't know whether they got grasshoppers into it or not but Highway No. 10 stood there during those years and is as good today practically as it was the day it was built , because it was properly built . That's what I was talking about.

No. 75 Highway which was built at that time, is the stron gest highway in all of Canada, on the statement of the chief engin eer of Canada's Cem ent Company. It proved that it was the strong est highway in Manitoba during the flood of 1950, when the water came over it, flowed under it, took out 12 feet of dirt from underneath, the highway moved not at all . Properly built highways, which my sp eech indicates, that we would build better highways and we did, and we built during that period the only two good highways we had in Manitoba. All of that was true ..

It is true that I increased the grants to municipaliti es by 400%. It wasn't so difficult in those days because the grants were practic ally nothing. And so, taking over where the other men left off, I increased them by 400%. This time I increased them by $800, OOO. 00, indicating where Manitoba gets this lift in regard to highways; and why we do have, at least a few, res pectable highways in Manitoba. I spoke only the truth when I said that our highways excelled those of west ern Canada at that time. I regret that during this interval that they have fall en away and have not kept up to that .st andard.

But neverthe less, it is my hope, my desire, my wish, and my belief that we will catch them again, and not long from now. Because we will build them properly as I've indicated in detail this aftern oon. And so, while the spee ch which I made in 1945 was better than I thought it was, I don't mind if the Leader of the Opposition will repeat some more, I don't think anyone else will be interested in them . except though, himself and myself; and I think they proved to quite a large degree what we said at that time, that we should build in Manitoba quality roads, No. 10 and No. 75 were such.

They stand as a monument to the building of quality roads in Manitoba. They've stood more wear, more time, more abuse than any two highways in Canada - or in Manitoba; and they're still excellent highways and will be long after we are not here. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, even if I could agree with all that the Honourable the Minister says, it still would n't answer the question. Because he was ten years in the position of Minister of Public Works here in charge of highways, practically ten years , and he was July 20th, 1959. Page ll07

(1dr"' Campbell, cont'd. ) .... building these other roads as well. No. 10 and No. 75 were not the only roads that were built during that time, Mr. Chairman, and the honourable gentleman was a party to building these others and be was proud of them as well. Now, he said that No. 75 is the strongest road in Canada, be bas promised on a couple of occa sions formerly to bring me the statement of that. He quotes some gentleman, but quite frankly I don't doubt what the honourable member is saying is bis belief of the situation, but I doubt the authority of the gentle- · man who told him that.

I doubt that that is right. I would think that someone else - some other province has bu.ilt as strong a road as that one. And admitting that it's a good road, 75 and No. 10, but they weren't the only ones ; �or the

section east of Minnedosa; nor the

section this way from Gladstone; they were not the only ones that were built in the honourable member 's time. He was building other roads. And I say to him that it was a considered policy of those days, as it is of governments in every province, that you don't build all of the roads of the standard of No. 75 and No. 50, and my honourable friend is not doing it now. He.has given us examples right today in the tonnages that were used when these roads that he has quoted as examples of this new policy. And there's a variation in them. That will continue, I'm not blaming him for that.

But the honourable member has to take some res ponsibility for the roads that were built at that time. And he can't escape it by attempting to tell us what he's going to do now in deal- ing with these generalities. However, that gets me back to the point under discussion, and that is, how can the Hon ourable Minister, Mr. Chairman, I'd like him to answer my question; does the honourable member really believe that the highways that I mentioned, all of No. 2, all of No. 3 and all of No. 4, does he really believe that they are ca pable of carrying, without damage, these maximum weights that have now been allowed?

MR. WILi.JS: Mr. Chairman, the question of whether they will stand it or not, is an engineering decision which was made by our engineers and they informed us that they were, and cons equently the weights were allowed. Here is part of their report which I think should .be put on on the record as well. "The new weight limit is very much in line with other provinces . British Columbia being 72, OOO; Alberta 62, OOO; Ontario 70, OOO for five-axle and 80, OOO for six-axle'� (Interjection) Saskatchewan, that's the next item. Saskatchewan has a maximum weight of 56, OOO on Trans-Canada and 45 , OOO on other highw ays.

It ways here in the report, "Saskatchewan is like a. small-gauged railway. It impedes the flow of traffic across Canada from east to west. " It felt that this increase to 72, OOO, which was made two years ago, is desirable, and Will en- able consumers in Manitoba to rec eive merchandise from factories in the east and elswhere at lower cost. It will also enable manufacturers to distribute their goods more advantageously.to markets elswhere.

It again comes back to the engineering advice which we got and which I · repeated to you in the l.ong memorandum, namely, that they had made· a proper investigation to it with regard to what they would carry and it says again, "it was found there was no undue damage to the highways because of the extra weight allowed spread over more axles". MR. CAMPBELL: Which means, Mr. Chairman, that some tests were conducte!l on all of these highways ? For instance for that statement to mean_ anything there'd have to have been some tests. I presume there were tests on Highways No. 2, and 3 and 4? MR,.

WILi.JS: Those -- I don't know whether every highway was covered. I would doubt it. I think the statements which I've read covers the situation. The tests were made. It was . found that there 's no undue damage to the highways because of the extra weight. I suppose they would not make them on all, but they would make them on comparable ones, so that they had the general picture. But it was an engineering test, made by engineers who advised us.

MR CAMPBELL: Well, I'm very glad to have the information of the engineers in that regard because it certainly contradicts what the Honourable Minister and his colleagues have been saying for some years . · MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, I listened with great interest when the Honourable the Minister of Public Works was speaking on the highways, but I always fall back on the side roads, and roads in disorganized territory, unorganized territory, and those people are requiring roads too.

But as the other day the Honourable Minister said that possibly in some of my area there are trial building roads or ditches, but I hoped that he would give consent to those roads and ditches where he intends or where he thinks it would be worthwhile. Now as far as grading is concerned, we people in disorganized territory, we have to pay 50-50 basis for grading the side . Page 1108 July 20th, 1959.

(Mr. Wagner, cont 'd. ) .... roads, and I understand from the local engineering department, that it doesn't amount to much to grade a side road. Roughly they gave me an estimation that $1. 00 would cost per mi.le to grade the road with 50-50- basis with the governm ent. And it causes so much friction amongst the neighbourhood because some body has to go and collect this money, chase around the country; 'hey, would you give a dollar or two on grading of the road' , and most of the people would not give in some areas ; in some areas they would give 100%, 50-50 basis, and in some areas they wouldn't give at all.

So the whole road program which they built that road in particular on 50-50 basis goes to waste because they wouldn't pay the grading expens es dollar per mile. So thought if the Minister did give any consid eration to grade the side roads at least twice or three times a se ason, to uphold the roads that are now built. And it brings me down to loca l towns. Generally the streets and towns are gravelled and particularly I am very aware of where the hos pital is situated on the street alongside the high way and the school.

And at times we do get a dry spell and it's so dusty that I believe even the Honourable Minister of Hea lth would agree with me that silt, that dust from the gravel is very unhealthful; and I se en in my own home town standing on the hos pital porch, you have no business opening the door or the doctor is going to come right in to the hos pital and in the hos pital there's sick people. The school is situated right alongside the access of the highway, dusty as could be. You could see the windows on the schoolhou se how dusty they are; and in the cafe, the stores alongside. And it's not only in Fisher Branch.

In practic ally in every town which the highway leads into town. It's very dangerous. I've came in evenings into town when there is no wind and damp, moist y outside and a car would be travelling only 30 miles an hour, it's a 30 mi.le zone, and yet it will bring enough dust up in the air that that dust wouldn't settle down for hours, because once it starts to settle down from one car, another car passes, a truck, and you couldn't pass a vehicle; it was dangerous to walk across the street.

And I would suggest we have foremen on these highways and when it does come to such a dusty occ asion, that's all he'd require to have kind of a large drum filled with water, an ordinary blacksmith, or ordinary welder can weld a bar, a pipe and spray. Recently -- I don't know who is spraying, I didn't find out - but rec ently they're spra ying by Fisher Branch Hos pital because it was unbea rable to absorb that dust. Now as far as the side roads are conc erned, again I have to return 50-50 basis.

Now everybody I believe that took it for granted when the election was on when the government offic ials were out in the hustings, they were stating that they were going to build good roads and better roads and lots of roads, and they're going to change the policy; and I'm just wondering whether the policy has been changed from 50- 50 basis in disorgan ized territory or still is ca rried on.

And I hate to repeat myself, I think this is the third or fourth time I'm on my feet always saying that the farmers cannot afford to pay 50-50 basis for a road or at times for a draina ge; because I know people that they were asked as high as $2, OOO. 00, $1, 600. 00 and $1, 500 . oo, And I know people that have children, the children should attend school ; the children cannot go to school due to the road conditions . I know a man that has to drive his child 13 miles before he can reach the school and the school is just from him a mi.le and a half. I know a man that put in $500. 00 to make a road himself.

He thought he made a road himself, and yet he has to travel, at times when little heavier rain than usual come, he has to travel 9 miles cross to another side of his farm . I thought that pos sibly the Public Works Department would give con sideration, since he put in $500. 00 of his own money, I believe the Public Works could help him and build that road that he wouldn't have to travel 9 miles to get across which it's only 100 yards acros s.

Now last fall when the Honourable Minister of Public Works was announcing the highway from Broa:d Valley to Fisher Branch, it 's under construction today, and I must say that I don't know whether that construction can't be helped but it's pretty rough. At times, I got stuck this mo rning, and it didn't rain too heavy there this morning, but I don't know, possi bly the contractor cannot manage to keep it under travelling condition. I unders tand the bus had to be pulled by a big cat. Possibly they could level it a little bit better to make it riding more suita ble.

But I was also concerned if the Public Works Minister is giving any consideration to extend the road from Fisher Branch to Hodgson in the same year, this is this summe r. And I was interested whether the extension will be further 4 miles east - done 4 miles east from Fisher Branch to July 20th, 1959. Page ll09

(Mr. Wagner, cont'd.) ..•. Vidir. and then from Hodgson towards Ashern. The Honourable Minister told me that in the spring sess ion he is going to announce the extension of these projects; but the spring session did not bring any announcement and I didn't hear him announcing further extensions here today. Also I would like to remind the Honourable Minister, possibly he has in mind, possibly he's going to build the access roads this year to Komarno and Malonton, Fraserwood, Meleb, Rembrandt and Silver.

I put up these questions on March 20th and the answer I received that Komarno has a south access built but will prime it this year. And the people got ahold of me the other week and they told me that it's unbearable to live alongside that access road due to the dusty conditions. And I believe the Minister has in mind to oiling that access road, but what the people would hope him to do, they're encouraging ·the Minister through me, . that he act a little bit faster and oil that access road that they wouldn't have to swallow so much dust. Also the building of Malonton access road.

I have here, the Minister reassured me that he's going to grade in 1959. And to Fraserw·ood, he wrote me back that it's doubly primed; but that double time has been broken up to practically nothing and this morning I was passing by and that priming is broken and it's gravelled already on top of it. So actually I put it in, there is no oili.ng done to Fraserwood either. So possibly the Minister would be kind enough and give consideration to these towns, Mallard, Rembrandt, Silver, and Komarno and Malonton and Fraserwood.

Now, I presented not too many petitions on market roads for proclaiming these market roads or announc ements, but so far I didn't hear any announcement of a market road in our area. Due to this school division that has been passed, larger area, I believe these market roads should be built, more proclaimed and built a little bit faster. And if there has been any consideration in the Minister's Department to these market roads or recently proclaimed, I would like the Minister to tell me which roads are proclaimed.

Because I have, and I believe the Minister is aware of it, I have some of my own opinion that the market roads sometimes are proclaimed where they shouldn't be proclaimed. Also I want to stress this Komarno road to Fraserwood. It's a black top, that's what we call it a black top, it's chloride I believe, if you want to use it, and it has broken. It has breaks that it's impossi ble practically to drive. Now, I'm just wondering often how these tires can stand those breaks, those ....•.•. and it's very rough.

And I understand that the Minister has in mind. to lay a bituminous top on from Kqmarno down towards Fraserwood. I would encourage the speedy action; it would save the public a lot of inconvenience. And I'm just wondering about these black top roads, as I call them, we have generally a truck there, a crew of about eight, sometimes six men, sometimes ten men, patching always these holes. And by the time they reach to one end, they have to return and patch again -- and back and forth, back and forth, and yet the road is not good.

I was wondering if it wouldn't be a better idea to build a suitable road, as the Minister has in mind, from the very first beginning and avoid these breaks. Now once again, Mr. Chairman, I would call upon the Minister to give his ut most consider ation in the disorganized territory - unorganized territory, possibly make some kind of a solu tion or coming to some solution about 50-50 basis, because the people out there, they just simply cannot afford to pay; and they have very tough time taking the children to school and their produce to market.

And one thing, .the people there they were happy and possibly no doubt the government did get such a majority as they have due to the fact that the farm people are really hard up on the roads. And naturally our Conservative candidates when they were out in hustings they were saying that they are going to build the roads -- that 20th centry roads would be established. Now I have here even a program, and it says ''Now let's get on with the business of Manitoba, re-elect the Roblin Government May 14th". And I' ll read the

article only about the roads, and it says: '' We are building good roads, quality roads, roads with increased stand ards and specifications, and we are building lots of them. " Now, Mr. Chairmani-I appreciate very much reading it in the paper but I would like to see on the land . • . . • . . • . . • • . . • • . Continued on next. page. Page mo July 20th, .1959.

MR . CHAIRMAN: 1 (b) - Resol ution 62 . Administration -- passed . MR . G. MOLGAT (Ste . Rose) : Mr . Chairman, on the matter of Administration -- could the Minister indicate whether the Deputy Minister in this Department has any other function and does he receive any income for other functions for the Provincial Government ? MR . WILLIS: No. MR . CHAIRMAN: Passed. Item 2. MR. HAWRYLUK: Mr. Chairman, I just briefly want to comment on the Minister's re- port about these large signs and think it' s something that ..... MR. CHAIRMAN: Is this under "Administration" ? MR . HAWRYLUK: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: We passed it.

It.was passed sometime . Does it come up under some other item ? MR . HAWRYLUK: Well, that was the Minister's report when he made his opening speech, and I just want to comment on it and congratulate him because it's something that we, the people of Manitoba and the tourists particularly , should have had for some time ago. I think these signs are a great need and an asset to thi s province if we are to encourage the tourist trade .

But I was just wondering, Sir, whether the same thing is being done about the signs, the se phosphorescent signs around the railroad crossings which we discussed about a year ago, and I think you made some comment or assurance that something would be done about the railroad crossings where we've had many, many fatal accidents .

I don't know whether you made a com ment about that, Sir, this afternoon or not, but if it's being done and if you are intending to do, I think it's a step in the right direction, but I'm definitely interested about those signs warning people before they come toward a railroad of any kind, particularly at night. MR. WILLIS: We have applied for 12 safety crossings, the large st number ever applied for. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 5. Post Office . (

a) Salar ies . (

b) Suppli es. Resolution 63 - Post Office - passed. Item 6, Maintenance Legisla tive Buildin gs . {

a) Salar ies . MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, where can we ask questions regarding the new building that is going up ? There's no appropriation for it. Can we do it under this item ? MR. WILLIS: It's a Capital item. Do it under Capital . MR. CHAIRMAN: (d) -- passed. Resol ution -- MR. CAMPBELL: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if the Minister is in a position to give us the cost now of lighting the building, ornamental lighting ? MR .

WILLIS: I don't have that with me, I'm sorry, and I'll be very happy to bring it down; and knowing the background of the Leader of the Opposition I' m sure that he will be pleased at the sm allne ss of the cost. MR. CAMPBELL : Tha t' s what the honourable n:e mber said when we discussed the insti tution of it, Mr . Chairman, and I have been watching the installat ion around here . What he considers small and what I do might be different amoun ts . MR. WILLIS: Quite. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 65 -- Passed. Item 7. Maintenance Government House . (a) -- passed. MR. W.C. MILLER (Rhineland) : Mr.

Chairman, this is Resolution 64. You called 65 . We're only on 65 now. MR. CHAIRMAN: On (b), yes. MR. CAMPBELL: We have an increase here, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, could the Minister give us the nature of the increase in this vote ? MR. WILLIS: It really just cuts down the loss which the Lieutenant-Governor has . As you know, the appropriation previous -- appropriation 7 (1) gives him a secretary and a gardener. And he does have many other servants, and this merely cuts down his loss to that extent, but will not nearly pay for what he has . MR. E. GUTTORMSON (St . George) : Mr.

Chairman, did the Governm ent buy the Lieu- tenant-Governor a new car during the past year? MR . WILLIS: They did. MR. GUTTORMSON: What was the cost of that car? MR. WILLIS: I think it's about $2 ,400 .0 0. --(Interjection)-- No . July 20th, 1959 . P.age Ull

MR . GUTTORMSON: Is this a new policy or did the previous governmen t purchase cars for the Lieutenant-Gov ernor? MR . WILLIS: No, this is a new policy -- and it's part of the government fleet. MR . :MILLER: Mr. Chairman, it isn't covered by Capital item, the only increase I see is a total of $2,5 00 .0 0 in the total resolution. Where would that appear? MR . WILLIS: It appears under "Cars" �- "Government Cars", just where the rest does . This becomes a government car and is in the usual appropriation for that. MR . CHAIRMAN: (b) 7. MR . CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairman, in the item of (2)here, I just wanted to get the reason for the increase. The Minister says that it cuts down the loss, but what did it pay for actually? MR . WILLIS: It's paid for the general servants which the Lieutenant-Governor has -- of which he has to have several -- but the other item merely pays for the two which I mentioned. In addition to that of course he must have -- he has a chauffeur, he has several maids, he has cooks. At times I've seen a dozen maids there at one time . This merely cuts down his loss, that' s all. MR .

GUTTORMSON: Can the Minister tell me where you can purchase a Chrysler for $2,4 00 .0 0? MR. WILLIS: Yo u'd be surprised. But that is the case . It can be purchased and easily. And they break their necks to sell it on that basis . No tax is involved. MR . GUTTORMSON: This was a new car, wasn't it? MR . WILLIS: Yes,- completely new car. MR . CHAIRMAN: (a) -- passed. (b) -- passed. Resolution 65. Maintenance - Govern ment House -- passed. Item 8. Maintenance - Law Courts, Winnipeg (a) -- passed. (b) - passed. Resolution 66 -- passed. Item 10. Maintenance and Rentals - Auxiliary Buildings, Winnipeg. (a) -- passed.

MR . HAWRYLUK: Mr. Chairman, in regard to the rentals there, is that the intention that eventually when the new building, office building is completed the most of these offices will be moved into the new building? MR . WILLIS: That's right. MR. CHAIRMAN: (b) - passed. Item 67 - Maintenance and Rentals -- passed. MR. :MILLER: There was an item - Maintenance Manitoba Technic31 Institute and I can't find that broken down anywhere . Is that under number ••.• MR . WILLIS: That's under number 10. MR . :MILLER: Number 10 - 67 ? MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, under the Maintenance and Rentals Auxiliary Buildings - under that does it come the old University of Manitoba Building at the corner of Osborne and Broadway? Pardon? MR . WILLIS: Yes, that's right. MR . PAULLEY: I'm sure the Minister is aware of the fact that the City of Winnipeg Council have suggested that they should proceed with the building of the City Hall, I believe that is the site or in general the site of the building of the new City Hall.

I'm wonder whether the Minister or possibly the First Minister could make any comment on that, particularly as to when the property may be available for the plans of the City of Winnipeg if they are going to go ahead with it. MR . ROBLIN: I think the only statement that I would like to make on this point, Mr. Chairman, is the one I have already given the City Hall and that is that we will honour the under takings entered into by the former administration in respect to that property. It's the decision of the City Council as to where they are going to build their City Hall,' not ours .

I would also say that it's a little bit hard to tell exactly when that property will be vacated by us, it wili pre sumably have to wait the completion of the building that' s under construction now-which will be quite a little while as my honourable friend will understand I am sure -- it will be a few months - quite a few months I would say. MR . PAULLEY: When the new building, Mr. Chairman, is completed there will be room there for, will there, for pretty well all the departmen t that are in the old building at the present time? MR . ROBLIN: There will be a general re-arrange ment of departments.

Whether the ones Page lll2 July 20th , 1959.

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd.) .•.. there will go into the new bui lding or over here I'm at a loss to say; but we certainly will have no spare accommodation, I'm pretty sure of that. MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, on the question of the new City Hall for the City of Winnipeg , I think it's important to remember that the City Council, even though it's their deci sion, that it seems to me it's their decision to build over here or else go to the ratepayers again, Isn't that a fact, with regard to the City Hall, if they build here they can proceed; if they go any place else I think they have to go back to the ratepayers?

And it's not for rrie to at tempt to advise the City Council of Winnipeg what they should do in a situation_ of that kind, but I still hold to the opinion that for two reasons this is an excellent place for the City Hall. The i:nost important one of the reasons bein g that the people have expressed themselves, when they were asked to decide the question, they recommended in no uncertain terms that si te. I think there's a great deal to be said for going ahead with it when they've made that decision .

Then the other reason is, that I think there's a lot to be said for maki ng this area one of the re.al show areas of the City of Winnipeg with this Legislative Bui lding here, the new Great West Life head office having recently been opened across the way, then that corner, if occupied by the City Hall, would make this a very fine centre of the City so far as architecture is con cerned. And of course, Broadway is having quite a revival of building as well.

In connection with the site over here I think that it's never been sufficiently emphasized in the dis cussion that has taken place, that the City of Winnipeg already owns what could be called the "key" site of that whole property. They already own more than three-quarters of an acre in that triangular shape in the corner immediately facing All Saints Church, and I have al ways felt that that is the "key" site to that whole area.

Then they own another part of an acre, I think about a third of an acre down a little further along Osborne, in between Osborne and the Mall, and when you take those two pieces of land together, add them together, then with the restrictio n that was put on the City Hall in connection with not in terferring with. the visibility of this Buildin g , you find that of the part that is left there that the City already owned quite a pro portion.

Now as far as I was concerned when we discussed the matter, it seemed to me that it was only fair and reasonable that we, the Province of Manitoba, already had our "s how build ing" as far as a show building is concerned, this one would be it I would think for a great time to come .

Any other buildings as with the one that is in the course of construction over there now, will be utilitarian rather than a strikin g architecture; and inasmuch as we had already our show bui lding; inasmuch as we, the Province, would never use our part of that property for our purposes anything other than parks or site of that, playground or recreation site of that kind, it seemed only reasonable to me that we should make it available to the City of Win nipeg if they thought it suited their purpose, and.particularly because they already owned such important parts of it: And it always seems to me that if the City carries through with their pro posal to keep their building pretty well to the west and north, that they could leave, because they will want ground around it any way, they can leave a completely unobstructed view of this buildin g as far as the Mall is concerned; and quite frankly I think a lot of the discussion that has taken place has served to complica te this problem rather than to clear it, and I hope that the City has now make up their minds firmly to go ahead with the proposal that the citiz ens of Winnipeg endorsed, and then if they have,it shouldn't be too long before we have another very fine public buildin g in this same location.

MR . CHAIRMAN: (a), (b) -- passed. Resolution 68 - Operation Central Power House - passed. Item 12 - Operation Kennedy Street Automobile Garage . (a), (b) -- passed. (

c) MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairm an, in connection with this one it might be the proper place to ask the Minister if he has, because no specific vote appears on the item, if he is pre pared to report on the progress that has been made in institutin g a new plan with regard to the use of government-owned autompbiles. MR. WILLIS: While the matter is under consid eration by a committee, there is nothing that can be reported as yet -- there has been no decision. MR . CAMPBELL: I suppose, Mr.

Chairman, that the increase -- not a large one -- but the increase that is shown here, and I realize that it is all recoverable charged against the different departments . The increase , I suppose, just reflects the increase in the number of cars, is it ? MR . WILLIS: That's right, just a small increase in cars . July 20th, 1959. Page lll3

MR . CHAIRMAN: Item 16 (a), (b) . Resol ution 69 -- passed . Item 21 (a), (b) . Resolu tion 70 �- passed. MR . PA ULLEY: Mr. Chai rman, have there been no facil ities have been built at Selkirk for recreational purposes in the last year or so ? MR . WILLIS: If you would ask that question under Capital Estima tes - Health, I think you would get the answer. MR . PAULLEY: It's in there? MR. WILLIS: Right. MR . CHAIRMAN : Item 22 (a) -- passed . Resolu tion 71 -- passed. Item 23 (a) - Salaries -- Passed. (b) -- passed. MR . E.R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Mr.

Chairman, could the Minister tell us whether this increase of less than a thousand, is it due to salary increas es, or I don't suppose -- or would it be to hiring of part-time personnel or what ? MR . WILLIS: Nearly all the increase is in the cost of power. MR . SCHREYER: ..••. these are salaries though, Mr. Chairm an. MR. WILLIS: Oh, salar ies . Yes, sorry. MR . CHAIRMAN : Resol ution 72 -- passed. MR . WILLIS: Just a minute -- hold it. MR . CHAIRMAN: Item -- A MEMBER: We just want to get some more information here . MR . WILLIS: No change in personnel -- slight increase in salarie s. MR .

CHAIRMAN : Item 25 (a) -- passed. (b) -- passed. Res olution 73 -- passed. Item 26 (a) -- passed. (b) -- passed. Resolution 74 -- passed. Item 27 (a) -- MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chai rman, what is the cost of construction for this building that is going on in front of the building in conjunction with the Royal Tour? MR . WILLIS: Oh, out front you mea n? MR . GUTTORMSON: Yes. MR . WILLIS: I don't know. MR. GUTTORMSON: You don't know ? It's done on an hourly basis ..... . MR. WILLIS: Yes . MR . MILLER: . ..•••.• $300, 000 .0 0 item, Mr. Chairm an. MR .

ROBLIN: I believe that comes under the item that was previously voted, Mr. Chair ma n, which is a blanket amount, and really is not, I trust, realist ic . I think it' s a lot more than we'l l need. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, at the last session I was pleased to complimen t the Minister on brightening up the Legislature on the outside. At that time the question arose as to the cost of the lights and the operation, and the Minister at that time properly said that he hadn't the full information before him at that time. I wonder if he has it now - the cost of the installation and operation? l\ffi . WILLIS: Mr.

Chai rman, I have agreed to get that for the ....•.. MR . PAULLEY: Oh, I' m sorry .•. .... MR . \\<1LLIS: •.. for the Leader of the Opposition as well, I'll get that. MR . PAULLEY: Oh, that's fine -- I was out of the House. MR . SCHREYER: Mr. Chairm an, I understand that some time soon there will be con structed on these grounds a monument to be dedicated to the great Ukrainian poet, Taris Shev chenko, and I would like to know if there is any governmental money involved at all, or whether it's just merely the giving of the space on this ground? MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Chai rman, perhaps I could answer that question .

The Government of Manitoba is not contributing any money, as such, to the erection of this monum ent; but we have been very glad to arrange for Us erection on the north-east

section facing on Broadway in a suitable loca tion there. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 75 -- passed. Item 28 - General Maintenance . (a) - passed. (b) -- passed . (c) -- passed. Resolution 76 -- passed. Item 30. Resol ution 77 - passed. MR . GUTTORMSON: This item of taxes - what does that involve ? MR . WILLIS: There are 90 loca tions in Manitoba on which we pay taxes to towns and · Page ll14 July 20th, 1959.

(Mr. Willi s, cont'd.) .... cities for government buildings that are there. It's an item which appears every time . I have them before me but I don't think you want me to read you 90 item s. MR. GUTTORMSON : I see there's an increase of $75, 000 .0 0, and I wondered why there was such up ••••. MR. WILIJS: School taxes . MR. MILLER: Huh! A MEMBER: You better be careful there ! MR. WILIJS: I was just going to say school taxes, of course, wouldn 't be included there . MR. ROBLIN: We don't pay school taxes. MR.

WILLIS: Yes, but I was just going to say that they were not include d in it, but it covers every place where there is a government building . MR. GUTTORMSON: But why is there such a big increase this year ? $7 5, 000.0 0? MR . WILLIS: No change in policy as far as taxes are concerned. MR. MILLER: Have municipal taxes gone up to such an extent? MR. WILIJS: Well, I think they have in some cases. I think we have more items which come under it this time than previously . That' s been a gradual process by which we've done that. We have several new items there that I know of.

Century Motors for instance was one, which we took over up here, and that alone - we paid the City $1, 536 . 00 taxes there . MR. CHAIRMAN: Resol ution 77 --passed. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. CAMPBELL : Did the Minister say, Mr. Chairman, that school taxes wouid not be inc1u9ed in this grant? · MR. WILIJS: It's a general grant in lieu of that .. approximately -general tax. MR . CAMPBELL: Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't think it' s limited to the general tax. It would be --the grant is in lieu of taxes, that•s true, but it' s on a level equivalent with the whole municipal tax, including school tax.

MR. A.E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): Mr . Chairman, on the grants in lieu of taxes, has the policy changed in regard to the amounts paid? MR. WILLIS: No change. MR . MOLGAT: Mr . Chairman, I can•t understand, like the Honourable Member from st. George, how there could be an increase of $75, OOO . 00 in there in the one year unless there's been a change in policy of some kind. MR. WILLIS: Well there's been an enlargement as far as the number of buildings is con cerned that are incl ri ded, but not a change in policy. MR. MO LG AT: Yes, but surely we haven't had it .

Last year we were paying $150, OOO . 00; this year we are taking 50� addition on top of that . Now we haven't added that much to our buil d ing in the one year. MR. WILLIS: I'll have to take that under advisement, of course. I have all the buildings here and all the details in regard to it. --(Interjection) --Not a chance .... MR. MOLGAT: I have no objection whatever to the payment to the municipalitie s, I think it's absolutely right that it be done, but I simply can't understand how we can have that much of an increase in the one year. MR. WILLIS: The policy, this is another one in regard to it .

Hitherto as a general rule this vote has been confined to payments to cities or towns for local improvements on government properties . Such payments have been made as a matter of grace and favour, and chiefly for the practical as well as moral considera tion .

Under an entirely new policy initiated by the govern ment in 1953, arrangements were made whereby payments would be made to cities, towns and municipalit ies for municipal taxes on land only, but insofar as land occupied by the government buildings -generally municipal taxes are paid only on lands which the Crown has approved for government purpose, or as purchased from private individuals for the use of the government . Municipal taxes are not paid on lands which are held by Her Majesty in the right of Manitoba for highways, or grades or transmission lin es.

Municipal taxes are also not paid on Crown lands which have not improved in any way and are being held for resale . MR. MOLGAT: Would the Minister undertake to explain at a later date then .•.. MJl,, WILLIS: Yes, ]'ll be glad to. MR . MOLGAT: ••.• what the reason for the increase is . MR. WILLIS: I'll be glad to . July 20th, 1959. Page lll5

MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 34 (a) --.., passed. (b) - passed. Resolution ••. MR. L. DESJARDINS (st. Boniface): Item 34 (

a) is that the salary, the wages of the switchboard operator? MR. WILLIS : Yes. MR. DESJARDINS: And there is only one operator? MR. WILLIS: Only one operator. You will be glad to know her salary is being material- ly increased. MR. DESJARDINS: It should be. MR. WILLIS : I entirely agree. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolu tion 78 -- passed. Item 41 - MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, under sub-'item (b), I realize that there is no increase from last year, but nevertheless I confess ignorance on this .

It seems almost inconceivable that this should be for telephones only or is there some other, or is there something else in con nection with the actual telephone costs . It just seems inconceivable to me, that's all. MR. WILLIS: All the equipment, wiring telephones, etc., connected to the switchboard WH 67, and all locals, located on the main floor of tlie Legisl ative Building, is nominally the property of the Manitoba Telephone Commission. We rent the strip from them exactly the same as a private subscriber.

Thus this vote takes care of monthly rental payments, plus the labour, material costs, perpetual changes in phones connected to the main switchboard. All long dis tance calls put through on phones connected to the Legisla tive switchboard are paid by the de partment incurring the expense. Rental equipment here is $36, OOO . 00; installation and moving charges is $1, 500. 00; the other is merely the salary of the operator with holiday and sick re lief. MR. PAULLEY: Is the rental on the equipment payable to the Manitoba Telephone Sys tem, Mr. Minister? MR. WILLIS : I think so. MR.

PAULLEY: We haven't any private exchange of our own as such with our own equipment? MR. WILLIS : No. MR. PAULLEY: I am wondering whether or not it might be cheaper -· although it's possibly just bookkeeping --to operate it . MR • WILLIS: I think that• s all it is . MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 41 -- passed. Resolution 79 - Item 50 - Purchasing Bureau. (a) -- passed. (b) -- passed. Resolution 80 - passed. MR. PAUL LEY: What is the general policy of the purchasing bureau on -- I understand that there was a re-o rganization two or three years ago 1n all purchases.

Does purchasing of the road equipment and the like s of that -- it comes under here -- but does all other depart mental pur chases, is it also channelled through the Purchasing Department on this item ? MR. WI LL IS: No. While the Purchasing Bureau serves most departments, there are exceptions in regard to it . These following items it does not serve. It does not serve the . Queen's Printer; the Provincial Libr ary; the Text Book Bureau; the Manitoba Telephone Sys tem; the Manitoba Power Commission; and the Liquor Commission. Those are not served by the Purchasing Bureau.

The Bureau has 16 employees and last year they purchased goods in the amount of $9, 217 , OOO . 00 . MR. CHAIRMAN: Passed. Item 51 (a), (b). Item 51 (b) 1. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, with regard to the over-all items here, is it correct to say that so far as the trunk highways are concerned, the Provincial Highways, that all of the money will come from capital ? Not maintenance, of course, but all the construction? MR. WILLIS : Yes, as far as the construction work being brought down now, it will come from capital . Approximately nineteen million dolla rs. MR.

CAMPBELL: That's the question that I was going to ask, was -- I don't want the details, but I would appreciate the breakdown of the 24 million dollars odd as between highways, buildings and other projects -- approxim ately 19 highways? MR. WILLIS : Approximately 19 on highways. The details- will be brought down on capi tal estimates, but at the end of these estimates I'll be glad to bring in the detail as to the high ways. Those highways - the new and complete program will be laid on the table of the House and will be available to members as well, on the correct item. Page lll6 July 20th, 1959.

MR. CAMPBELL: AI3 a further breakdown, can the Minister tell us now, roughly, how much is buildings and what is other projects? - I don't want the detail, just a rough breakdown. MR. WILLIS: I think it would be more appropriate to deal with it in capital, there's quite a lot of detail. MR. CAMPBELL: That' s O.K. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, now that we're back on highways, when we were discus sing load limits a while ago, the Minister indicated the need for this because of the other neigh bouring provinces.

Could he give us what the limits are in the neighbouring American states, in North Dakota, Minnesota, and Wisconsin in particular, because a great deal of our long dis tance trucking today is coming through those states, and I wonder if he could give us the figures on them . MR. WILLIS: In general they are higher. I don't have the figures. MR. MOLGAT: On the matter of loads again, the Minister indicated that our previous load was 54 - or 44. Now that was brought up a while ago and I think surely that that is not correct because I notice that we are prepared to license trucks up to 54 tons .

Now surely we wouldn't be licensing the 54 if we had a load limit of 44. Now, is there a correction to be made on that statement? MR. WILLIS: I have in mind the same thing that you have just said. I'll double check. The memo which I have before me, I read as was . MR. CHAIRMAN: (b) 2 -- MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, on the subject of highways, some time ago before the Orders of the Day, I asked the Minister a number of questicns in regard to the Trans-C anada Highway and Symington Yards. I wonder if he has replied to those questions ? MR. WILLIS: Trans-Ca nada Highway in regard to which? MR.

MOLGAT: And the Symington Yards. I asked four questions before the Orders of the Day approximately a week and a half ago. MR . WILLIS: I remember requesting that. I don't know whether it is easily available, but I will double check again. MR. CHAIRMAN: (b) 2 . MR. WRIGHT: Mr. Chairman, in regard to highways, I would like to draw to the atten tion of the Committee, a road which I consider to be one of Manitoba's forgotten roads. Ori ginally it was the main tourist ·attraction to Manitoba. I refer to the road between Seven Sisters and the Junction to the Whiteshell.

And as you know, last year we had a resolution on the Order Paper which died in regard to its improvement. I would like to ask the Minister if anything is being contemplated for its improvement this year? MR . WILLIS: Yes, we have definite plans in regard to that improvement. I suggest to the member, if he would come in and see me, I could discuss it with him in a better way. MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I think that the other members of the Committee would be equally anxious to get that information. MR. WILLIS: I'll bring it down . MR. CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairman, I don't know that this is the place where the Minister would prefer to do it, but could we get the details as to where the safety crossings that have been requested this year would be installed? MR. WILLIS: I'll get them for you. MR . ORLIKOW: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if we could get some details on that river road between Parkdale and Lockport? MR. WILLIS: As we have agreed to take that road over as a 100% provincial responsi bility we've had a preliminary survey in regard to it. I think it's the most scenic road that runs out of Winnipeg myself, and we intend to take it over.

It has some problems in regard to it, particularly as to river slippage which is there . But we're going to tackle the problem and we have advised the municipality we'l l take full responsibility for it and it will be a 100% road and responsibility of the province . MR. CAMPBELL: When will that be done, Mr. Chairman? MR. WILLIS: We're working on it now . MR. CHAIRMAN: (c) 1, 2; (d) 1, 2; (e) 1, 2; (f) 1, 2; (g) 1 MR. PAUL LEY: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could give us an outline on the July 20th, 1959. Page lll7

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd.) .•.. Planning and Design Office. I im agine this deals with all of our highway's including those under Capital Supply. The Minister mentioned --getting back to his original statement -- that these roads which have now been designated as Class A roads had been under tests, and I presume that this is the

section under which the tests may have been taken. And I'd like to know - I'm sure others in the Committee would like to know - how long these roads were under test and the degree of the tests. Now as I understood the Minister when he was talking on this particular item, mentioning that some testing had been done. He didn't indicate to me, unless I didn't hear him, that each of these roads were tested before the limit - the gross limit - was increased to the 72, OOO pounds.

Now I did mention when I was speaking of Highway No . 4 East, and I appreciate work being done on that highway, I would like to know the degree of testing that was done on that highway and on the other highways before the weights were increased. I am also interested in Highway 15, particularly from Winnipeg to No . 12, be cause that highway is of relatively new construction, and only recently has been worked on the last year or two, particularly from Transcona to Anola.

And also No . 12 - I was down No . 12 the other day - it didn't appear to me to be a very sub stantial highway, but I would like to know from the Minister if he could go more into detail on this question of planning and design, because I presume that that would be the

section of his depart ment that would be having these matters under their consideration. I would like to know how long the roads were under test and how many of these roads actually did receive a test, because the Minister indicated in his opening statement that there was just one or two or some - but not all of them. MR.

WILLIS: As I understand it there were representative tests made in regard to a number of these roads so they could get a proper cross-sec tion and make an engineering deci sion as to whether they could allow 72, OOO pounds; and that having been done-they made the re commendation which I read to you here today in regard to the increase in weight.

May I say to the Leader of the CCF Party that this is the opening up, this particular item of Planning and Design Office, is the opening up of our whole planning division, which I read him 15 different items which are now in process of being worked out, so that it has that as well. As far as the individual road is concerned, and the individual tests which are made in regard to that, I don't think he would expect me to have that, but I'll get any additional information for him that we have . MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, I can appreciate the desirability or necessity of proper planning for roads, and I think it's good and has been done because we've always passed an ·ap propriation for it -- albeit the appropriation we have before us this afternoon is about $50, OOO . 00 greater than it was last year. But to me there seems to be more-than just simply planning in this road use as well.

Now I would suggest - I may be sticking my neck out to some extent on this - that these roads that are now Class A roads were under some sort of planning before, and the point that still concerns me is the planning that was undertaken in respect of increasing the load limit on these roads that the Minister announced. MR. WILLIS: Mr. Chairman, I think I've fully covered the question that what we did, we did on the advice of our engineers; we have their statement that they did make proper tests in regard to it and I think that covers the information. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairman, when.the Minister spoke of the Planning Division - or his second point - I guess he called it just planning - did he indicate that this is an outside organization that is doing this work? MR. \VILLIS: Yes, it's the Automotive Safety Foundation. It has its headquarters in Washington. It is the largest planning organization on the continent.

It is supported by public subscription and the automobile companies, the gasoline companies and other organizations support it in Washington where its headquarters is; and they have carried out their investiga tions in many states of the Union, and they have also carried out in Ontario, and now they have come to us . I said before, and I repeat now, that I have discussed the matter with the Chief Engineer in Minnesota- I should make a correction and say he is known there as the Commis sioner of Highways - but I had discussed it with him, Mr.

Zimmerman, and he very highly re commended this organization, doing m excellent job and doing it relatively cheaply. I got the same opinion from the Minister of Highways in the Province of Ontario, where they had been doing a job there as well; and it is an outside organization in that extent, largely that people pay Page lll8 July 20th, 1959.

(Mr. Willis, cont'd.) .••. to it to keep it in business also are the same people we have in this country as well, the same oil companies -- all of those contribute to it in both countries, and therefore, because they have subsidiaries in Canada they are very· happy to give us this service, which -- to which they pay a major part of the cost . MR. CAMPBELL : Mr. Chairman, when the Minister uses the term "give· the service", I don't suppose it's free, is it? MR. WILIJS: No, no . No, no . We pay merely their certified out-of-pocket expenses . That's all we pay. MR. CAMPBELL: I ask the Minister, Mr.

Chairman, how many people will they have working here? I suppose the numbers will vary at different times , but approXim ately what sort of a team do they send in? MR. WILIJS: They do some of this work for us in Washington. They've had several here. At one time they have not had more than three -- to the best of my knowledge they had three engineers here at one time.

Largely they instruct our engineers and then come back again in two or three weeks and give them new instructions and new work to do, and they have covered the whole of the Province of Manitoba already by car, checking up on various features to see that they have the proper perspective in regard to this, as they have done in, I think, 23 states of the Union. It's their regular business and they come most highly recommended and they• re doing a work, and for what we're going to pay them will be very small indeed compared with the cost if we had an outside organization doing this work. MR. MILLER: Mr.

Chairman, what is the estimated portion of the Manitoba contribution, under this item? MR. WILIJS: The Manitoba contribution is - we have entered into a contract with them - not to exceed $15, 000.0 0. In Ontario they had a similar contract with ·them under which, if I remember the figure correctly, they paid them $8, 500 . 00 . So that it is just a matter of their actual certified out-of-pocket expenses that we pay.

It's a wonderful opportunity in my opinion and one which is quite unusual, but because they are subsidized by these various large companies interested in safety -- and perhaps as a secondary, interested in selling oil and cars -- that they are able tci do these things. MR. CAMPBELL: The item that we are dealing with here - Planning and Design Office - I presume that that's the one that they work most directly with, Mr. Chairman, wouldn't it be? MR. WILIJS: I beg your pardon? MR. CAMPBELL: Would the Planning and Design office be the one that they work most closely with? MR. WILLIS: Yes, that's right. MR.

CAMPBELL: Who is in charge of that work now? MR. WILLIS: The chief man as far as the work is concerned within the province is Mr. Blackman, who is our Assistant Deputy Minister, and that' s been assigned to him. Then they have the regular men who previously did this work, took the traffic counts, and also all the men who did soil analysis as well. They are all under that office and will do that type of work on in struction.

In addition to that, during the summer we did have two men from the University of Manitoba - a professor and assistant professor there - who supervised to a degree the carrying out of this work during their vacation. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, the other evening - I don't know if the Minister was in here at that time - but the other evening we were paying a lot of compliments to a lot of civil servants here , and I certainly could say a very good word for Mr. Blackman.

He's an excellent man I think to have on that type of work, and I would expect that if he works closely with them that he will pretty well incorporate their methods into his own work where he thinks it advisable. The point that I really wanted to make though in this discussion, Mr. Chairman, was with regard to the research - if it might be called that - on this question of vehicle weights.

I remem ber years ago - not so many years ago - some information being brought to the Law Amendments Committee when we were having a very intensive discussion about whether we should raise the weight limits at that time, the results of tests in some one of the New England states - I think they have a standard test down there that corresponds somewhat to the Lincoln test on tractors and that sort of thing. Can the Minister tell us the name of that state that has been conducting some very intensive road tests with regard to weights of vehicles? Ju].y 20th, 1959. Page.lll9.

MR. WILLIS: I think the Leader of the Opposition has in mind the Idaho tests, probably. MR. CAMPBELL: I am sure it was not - I am sure it was a New England state. MR. WILLIS: Well, it might be . Yes, they have in mind a series of tests, and we've had men down there on two particular occasions from our own department watching and getting the results of those tests. -- (Interjection by Mr. Paulley) -- It may have been . The one I have in mind was Idaho . MR. DESJARDINS: Yes, there is one there too . MR. WILLIS: Could be . MR. CHAIRMAN: (g) 1, 2 -- passed . (h) -- passed. (i) -- l'vIB. SCHREYER: Mr.

Chairman, on highway maintenance - a short while ago this after noon, the Honourable Minister in answering the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, stated that the highways weren't in very good shape but he thought if they keep on working'3.t it that he thought he'd have thirg sunder control and he'd have very good highways fairly soon; and I see here a reduction of $800, OOO . 00. I wonder if there is another item in there that will cover that, because I am sure that there must be more money spent than that if the roads are in such a bad shape . MR .

WILLIS: The item which I had in mind when I mentioned it was -you'll see it there under (j) - formerly eight municipalities - three million five -- now four million three . MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, what does this (i) 1 cover then - highway maintenance, provincial trunk highway. Would I then surmise that those roads are in very good shape? MR . WILLIS: Yes, those are the trunk highways - provincial maintenance of trunk high ways in Manitoba. We have 3, 701 miles . ' MR. SCHREYER : Do these two sub-items, Mr. Chairman, encompass wages paid to men who work maintaining the roads - patching them ? MR.

WILLIS: They do. MR. SCHREYER: Does that include resident engineers and the like ? MR. WILLIS: Yes, one group of them is included. MR. SCHREYER: Could the Minister tell this Committee how many resident engineers there are at present in this province; and also if any have left

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-1-29
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Volume / chapter	26th 1st hansardpdf 29.pdf
Language	en
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