'! PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR I HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 --- · - _Number '4 4th. Session .... VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY. FE8RUARY24,1970 ) -· SPEAK£R: THE rtONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARl<E • .• - r

·· .. .. February 24th., 1970 Tape no. 42 Page 1 The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. PPY.SE~LING PETITIONS MR. A. l-.'ORNELL: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition from seventy- j two residents of the to¥U of St. Alban's and this petition is for a road across ' I a

section of St. Alban's known as,··"The Hill." A part of the petition reads as follovs: "For sixteen years, 'W'e have been living on this hill, and we only get I five months' services each year. Our garbage is left around all 'Winter, and ~nnot be taken avay before late Sprin~, vhen the road ~ets hard enou~h for the garbage truck to make it up the hill." Now obviously, Mr. Speaker, this is a town council project, An accompanying letter states · that they have made representations to the tovn council at St.

Alban's, and it has assured the petitioners that something would be done providing they could get some assistance from the Department of Municipal Affairs. This petition, Sir, is signed by seventy-two residents of the surrounding area, and it also includes, I might add, the medical doctor there and Reverend Gordon Grace, the Parish Priest and several store owners. I have ~ch pleasure, Sir, in giving this petition my support and I ask that it be received by this bon.

House and referred to the department ta vhich We move and second it that this petition be received and referred to the department to 'Which it relates. MR. T. !!-!=X HIC~: Mr. Speaker, if I may in support of the petition subtdtted by the bon. member for Hermitage. The situation in vhich the residents of St. Alban's find themselves is due in no small measure to the fact that the plan that vas referred to by my hon.· friend from Hermitage last night and prepared in 1965 for the development of the Bay d'Espoir area has kept municipal development in a state of uncertainty.

For a lonR time it vas fcozen and in supporting this petition I urge the bon. Minister of ~!unicipal Affairs to categorically assure 'the people of the head of Bay d'Espoir that their proposed municipal developments and the tovn plans that have been prepared for that area_vi11 be implemented. , . <L I<- ,

• I February 24th,, 1970 Tape no. 4 2 .. .Page 2 Without ·that, it is going to be very difficult for these people,,as my hon. friend knows from Hermitage, to have their request ~ranted, and I for one support it wholeheartedly, and 1 feel the time has come for some dec!sive action insofar as the head of Bay d'Espoir is concerned. JKR· S~EAKER:___ We move and second it that this petition be received and referred to the department to which it relates. Carried. . I. I PRES.ENTING REPORTS 0? STANDING AND SELECT COMMITTEES RON. AlDEN MALO~~ (Minister oJ_~ish~rie~: ~~.

Speaker, I beg leave to table the annual report of the Fisheries Loan Board of N~foundland for the fiscal year ended Y~rch 31, 1969 and I beg leave also to table the annual report of ' I I I \ the Nevfoundland Fisheries Development Authority for the year ending March 31, 1969. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS RON. J::B.. SMALUlOOD (Premier): ~r. Speaker, I have ansvers to one or. two C{uestions · that were on the Order Paper of yesterday. Question no. 3, February 23, 1970, .asked by the bon. the Leader of the Opposition.

I also say in connection with the question that the vord "dividends" is not the word, I think, perhaps the bon. gentleman meant to use or if he did, . he is wrong. There are no dividends. The question of dividends does not arise and the simple answer would be none. If he means payments received by the Government the amount is $704,400. Question no. 5, February 23, 1970 asked by the han. the Leader of the Opposition. Again with correction of tha word, "dividends" 'and substituting the vord, "payment." The fiy,ure is $1,238,896. Question no. 25, February 23, 1970, asked by the hon. member for St.

John's East (Extern). Again subst~tuting the vord "paytnent" for the word "dividends." The amciunt is $72,100. Question no. 34, February 23, 1970, asked by the hen. me~ber for Gander. Answer (1} $18,020 Answer (2) 1500 , .. ··--:-

. . ····· "' -·::!:.,. __ ::~~~~:;(. _ :;...;~~-- .. ,. -: ·. : -~--~·,·. • ...... . February 24th. 1, 1970 Tape no. 42 _page 3 Question no. 35, February 23, 1970 asked by the hon. member for Gander. Again substituting the word "payment" for the vord "dividends." The ' figure is $69,102. Question no. 46, February 23, 1960 asked by the bon. member for St • .John's West. I answered it yesterday in part but in

part I gave uo answer because I did not have it; at the time and I am informed by the Department of Finance that there is spme indication, but there is no certainty at the moment, but ' there is some indication that an amount of $20,000 was paid to that firm as part of the cost of the survey. The department vill confirm that to me and I will in turn confirm it to the House, when I get it. Question no. 58, February 24, 1970, asked by the bon. memher for Gander. Answer

(1) Yes • I I ' Answer

(2) It is not the practice to publish the rates charged to commercial firms. Answer

(3) No. Answer

(4) It does not arise. Question no. 60, February 24, 1970, asked by the hon • .ember"for St. John's East (Extern). Answer

(1) Yes, as to $300,000. of the amount and as to the remainder of the amount; namely, $94,100 this is to be paid before ~Arch 31. Answer

(2) By cheque. ~~LONEY: ~~. Speaker, I have the ansvers to a number of questions. Question no. 10, February 23., 1970, asked by the bon. Leader of the Opposition. Ansver: An audited statement of the operations of Harbour Grace Fish Corporat:1on to the 31 March, 1969, will be included in the Public Accounts to be tabled in the House and a further audited"statement to March 31, 1970 will be furnished subsequent to that date. Question no. 12 February 23, 1970 asked by the bon. Leader of the Opposition. Answer

(1) No. The company concerned, hovever, did have such a study made• ·Answer

(2) The feasibility studies and the Kates, PeE£. Harwick and Company report are privileged information. - .· .,

. . February 24th. 1970 Tape fJ 43 I ' RON. AI D~1i ~~ONF.Y : (MINISTER OF FIStERISS) Quest~on No. 20 on the Order Paper of the same day, 1-~onday 23rd, asked by the hon. the member for St. John's East Extern:

(1) Discussions have taken place, Mr. Speaker, down through the years I between 'various people who are concerned regarding the establishment of a Fish Y~rket in St. John's. The viability of such an operation always was/considered doubtful. I I understand the Municipal. Council has nOY appointed a committee to· study these problems. Question No. 30 on the Order Paper of Monday 23rd. asked by the hon. the member fro Gander: of

(1) Details of loans,/any loans would be provided by the Loan and Gurantee Amendment Act, 1970 comes before the Rouse. Question No. 31 on the Order Paper of the dame day asked by the bon. the member for Candei:

(1) No. there is an understanding with the Bank involved vith this Loan, as well as with loans and guarantees to fish companies, due and unpaid on the date November 15th. 1969. The understanding vith the Bank is that reviews of audited±atatements of the companies involved would be made four to five months after the financial year ends, with a view to cancellation or reduction in the respective guarantees. FURIRER ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS BON. WILLIAM CALLAHAN: Mr. Speaker, on question no. 22 on the Order Paper of yesterday, asked by the hon. member for St. John's Extern - the question is in five parts; (1) $2.006,252 (2) $1,966,865 (3) $25,571.

(4) To the consoiidated revenue fund (

S) That it does not arise. Hr. Speaker, 1 intend to table for the sake of accuracy_ this reply and attached to it, annexure showing the breakd~~&f the expenditure and revenue in the Mining Division, Bell Island since June l.st. 1966. May I just say this that \.. the breakdown is in three columns, the ;first column being in -respect of the three. /t · .

salyage periods ·,', June 1st. 1966 to Hay 31st. 196 7. And since there is no explanation of what the terminology means, I should point out, explain that was the ·,.year·1during which the Bell Island Mines after Dosco 'Was through, were kept in operational readiness vhile the Govern~ent negoitated and attempt to find another operator who would take over.

But, as the first column ~>hat is kno-r.m as the,presalvaged period, the salvage period, June l, 1967 to January 31st. 1970 represents the period I after salvage began to the 31st. of January, this year, and these columns are added to give the total figures in the third column the sum of which were required specifically in the question answered.

I ~ight also say, Sir, that in the thrid column the total salvage and maintenance period in respect to expenditure, the two figures labour obviously, $1,088,199.43 and shipping $252,6908 - should be taken together in consideration of the payment of wages and salaries; because in addition to the Labour Figure, the total almost entirely of shipping expenditure was for men engaged in the ~· loading of vessels. Which vould give a total figure for wages and salaries at $1,340,889.51. answer HON.

ERIC JONES: (MINISTER OF FINANCE) Hay I xEk a question to ~o. 40 on the Order Paper of yesterday regarding insurances paid on buildings owned and leased by the Government. This question has redirected to my colleague, the hon. the Minister of Public Works, as these items are carried in his estimates. FURTHER ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ORDERS OF THE DAY I \ HR:;.: . 'I • AI.EX HICKMAN : Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. the Minister of Labrador Affairs due to certain remarks which were made by him in the Bouse last evening, and which may have been misunderstood by members.

In view of the statement, by the official of the Iron Company of Canada, that they have not made a definite decision to proceed with the expansion of their Mining Operations in Labrador City or in Labrador. Does the bon. the ·· · Minister wish to _inform the Hous·e as to where or bow he acquired this information? PREMIER SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, that is out of order. That question I suggest to ~our Honour is entirely out of order. The time for him to have asked was lasted night. He has no right -to ask it today. On Orders of the Day. MR. T. ALEX HIC1<!1AN: Hr.

Speaker, I submit this is the proper question to ask of the !Unister of Labrador Affairs. It.is impossible to put this question to the A ·.· ' ..

; . ·.· • hon.the Minister yesterday. This is the first opportunity I have had to do it. ! Because it ~as only tod~y, that the st~ternent as all han. members know was made by the official of the Iran Ore Company of Canada. MR. SPEAKER: 'With the explanation I will say under the circumstance it is \ possible for the hon. member to ask a question , the hon. the minister of Labrador Affairs may take it as notice, and answer:it later,if he so desires. MR. T. ALEX HICKMAN: Oh! I am sor·ry. HON. EARLE WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I will take notice of the question. MR. CLYDE WELLs:: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the hon. the Minister o~ i Public Works. I would ask him, if he would inform the Rouse, whether or not the statement contained in today's Dai·ly News is correct? Namely; the statement quoting the han. Minister as saying, "that he is quite sure that his department would find ample space for Mr. Wells and his colleague shortly on the ninth or tenth floor. He confirms that is correct? PREMIER SHALLWOOD: To a point of order. This is not the kind of question that maybe asked on Orders of _the Day, nor is it a question which the han. gentleman can give notice in the ordinary way.

This is not t~e type, it is· not . the nature of questions that is permissible at the calling of Orders of the Day. KR. SPEAKER: If we are to sit to the Rules exactly, we vill have no questions on Orders of the Day. It is only be custom that the questions are allowed on • Orders of the Day, but it has become accustomed .xt of where a question of something of immediate urgency requires a answer. These rules states, and I am not quoting, I am not saying that I am quoting from memory, but I believe this Rule states, that questions that could be placed on the Order Paper are out of order at this time.

I do not know, if that is the exact wording or not. Questions that could be placed on the Order Paper - now all questions could be placed on the Order Paper for the next day, but a question similar to ·those asked, if I thought that -the objection was going to be the reading of a newspaper clipping, but which our question cannot be prefaced by something from a newspaper. I do net think, ie vas read, It was only asked. The bon. ~anister may or may not, he may take it ~s notice, and we can put it on the Order Paper, if he so vishes? HR. CLYDE WELLS: To a point of Order, ~~. Speaker.

I would refer Your Honour and the ..: Bouse to our Standing Orders page 17 - "When Mr. Speaker has called the Orders of the Day and before they are read, .it is the practice, not sanctioned by any rules, for ~mbers to make explanation or ask questions of the Government in Teferenee to inaccurate reporting of their speeches in orffical records of newspaper;/' ·.> . ....

• February 24th. 1970 Tape 8 43 I or in denials and, char ges made about them in print or in reference to certein remarks which may have been misunstood. I assume from reading our Standing Orders, Hr. Speaker, that this is the most appropriate question, asking a most appropriate time. 1 . \ I MR. SPEAKER: This is what has already been said, the only thing is, there is an .explanation a little further on it, which states that questions which ·could be put on the order paper, are not in order at this time.

I presume it that it I means questions t~at could be put on the Order Paper for this particular day, I and it is not clear. If the hon. miaister wishes to answer the question. PREMIER S~I.ALLWOOD: To a point of Order. I take it that Your Honour's Ruling is that if this is a question that could be put on the. Order Paper, it ia not in order to ask it at calling Orders of the Day. Is that your Honour's Ruling? HR. SPEAKER: This is what is on Orders of the Day~ PREMIER SMALLWOOD: That is the Ruling of your Honour.

It is not in order to ask it at calling of Orders of the Day, if it can be put on the Order Papers in the regular way. MR. SPEAKER: My ruling is that I would permit the question simply because it could not be put on the Order ~aper for today, if it were a mattex which only appeared in the newspaper as of this morning or this afternoon. , PREMIER SHALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, to be put on the Order Paper for asking tomorrow/ What is the difference? Is it so urgent that this could not wait until . tomorrow and be asked in the norma~ way? MR.

SPEAKER: We do not want • • • • • • • I do not want to ge't into the business of questions - we have gone into it again so aany times, that our rules are clear on it, and I do not to read what the bon. member for Humber West has just read over. We only have the other statement in our rules which states that questions which could be put on the Order Paper. Now this is a =atter ior interpreta~ion, if as I say, we stick to that rule exactly, there will be no other question on Orders of the Day, and~let · us cancell it altogether. There will be no questions on Orders · of th~ Day. HR. T. HICKEY: Point of Order.

Why do we not hear from the hon. minister to whom the question was directed? MR. SPEAKER: That is a point of order, becuase the hen. the Minister may or may not answer the question as has he pleases. ~ov rules provide for that too. I would permit the question, if the bon. the ainister wishes to answer "yes", "no" ..,. ""'· .. i i ·' I i ·I i /;r. I .

/ . · . .. ·. • PK - 5 February 24th . 1970 Tape H 43 or any othe r vay or ir,nore it , i t is entirel y a matter for his rights . SOHE HON . ~IEH!lER : I naudible . ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEA.J(.£R: The Bon . t he President of the Council to ask leave to intt:oduce a Bill - "J:.n Act l}especting The Liens Of Hechanics And Others" . (Bill No. 15) ' Bas the bon. minister l eave to i ntroduce this Bill. Bill read a first time, I ! ~~d ~ a s econd time on t omorrow. NO. 2 - Th~ Ron. the Praside nt :of The CoUl_lcil to ask leave to introduce a Bill- "An Act Further To Amend The Securities Act" . (No •. 24) Bill read a first time, ordered read a sec ond time on tomo rrow • I \ \ . \ I •·

• On m,otion of the bon. President of the Council a Bill, " /m Act Further To Am~nd The Trustee Ftet." 1:ead a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorro~. On motion of the hon. the Hinister of Public Welfare A Bill, "

An Act Further To Ar.lend The Child Welfare Act l'J64." read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorro~. On motion of the han. the Hinister of Public Welfare a Bill 0 "An Act Further To Amend The Department Of Public Welfare Act 1965." read a first time, o~dered read a second time on tomorrow. I I On motion of the hon, ~linister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Fot"est Fires : Act. ·" read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

On motion of the han. the ~tinister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Dog Act." . read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the hon. the Minister of Hines, Agriculture and Resources a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Wild Life Act." read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the hon, the ~Unister of Education a Bill, "l.n Act To·Consolidate And Amend The Law Relating To The Raising Of Local Taxes For Schools." read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

On motion of the bon. the Hinister of Fisheries a Bill, "An Act Respecting The Payment Of Bounties On The Construction Of Fishing Ships." read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the hon. the Ninister of Supply a Bill, "

An Act To Amend The Public Printing And Stationery Act." read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the hon. the Minister of llighways a llill, "An Act ·Further To Amend The Deparbnent Of llighw~ys Act, 1968." read a first time, ordered read a second - time on tomorrow. HR. J.C.CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, when we adjourned last night we were debating a motion of non confidence moved by the hon. mecber for Humber East, and seconded by myself - which motion reads - it is in two parts really.

That this House regrets the failure of the Government to provide the public of Newfoundland with th~ facts concerning the present economic and financial position of the Province. That is the first part. That is a general failure that this Goverment is engaging in twelve months of the year - not just when /(.J , -~-- -·

·:. ·.· .. the Hol!se of . Ass~rnbly :i.s o::~n. !his is the first part - that has nothing to do with the first day of this session or how many questions the Government an swered or failed to answer or did not answer properly on the first day. i The resolutio ;\ goes on to add - and the failure to answer fully and completely ' questions tabled in this House by members thereof, touching upon public affairs of the Province and s tates it has no confidence in the Government. Hr. Speaker, last night we discussed or I discussed this motion for some time.

There were soree interchanges with the Premier and despite the ! fact that I thought I h ad shown him satisfactorily up to the time we concluded I . the hon. ~e mb er up to t he ti ~ e ve concluded- that there were seven questions answered unsatisfactorily - this morning as we listened with avid attention as we must do if we are in public life, to that great program on radio statioa V. O.C.M.,"conversations with the Premier," carried five mornings · a veek. fifteen minutes each time, 'What do ve hear?

We hear the hen. the Premier churtling, chuckling ! giggling delightedly about alleged lack of knowledge of mecbers of this side as to the rules of the "'House. The hon. member was beside himself with delight "ind went on to say again with apparent pride how the Government yesterday had answered thirty-six of the fifty-six questions tabled. Then he positively almost went wild with delight as he recounted how one time he tabled two hundred and some odd questions or had prepared that many for someone else to table.

Well I think we will match that few hundred questions befor~ this session is over unless it has a short life. Now Mr. Speaker, I men~oned yesterday that questions no.2 1 no.6. no.7 1 no.21. no.43. no.44. and no.46 on the Order Paper yesterday were answered in a contemptible manner by the GovenL~ent. Ansvered haphazzardly answered carelessly - the information requested not given. and some of those questions could not be more important in the life of this Province. I will come back to them later. I vant to also mention another tvelve and I am being generous. It is done in the spirit of generosity not nit-picking.

I o~y find in the spirit of generosity nineteen of the answers yesterday that were unsatisfactory - that did not give the information requested - and seventeen vhich I am prepared to say vere answered adequately out of the thirty-six. We look at the Order Paper of yesterday Mr. Speaker, question no.49 was asked by the hon. member for Bonavista North - it asked a lot of detail the number of retired civil servants receiving pensions of various amounts. And the number of civil se.rvants professional employees receiving pensions of , · certain amounts.

Everyone know ~ of course that that information does not I • ~ \ '

' . •. l .. ..J • come over ni gl).t - cannot be expected c ·;c r night. Uhat ;.;as ::he an s -:.•e r the I hou. the Minister of F~nance gave - t l1at this inf or.:lz,t i on vas not rea.dily available. News - thi s is real news t ha t this de t<!il ed infor=ti or:. is not that the information would be made available to this llouse in reply to the question - once it bec ame a vailable - why not? That is not a satisfac .tory position to take in our view. i Question no;· :50, a verj import an t que s tion t o this Province asked by I _myself - I asked the hon. the Premier to la}' on the table of the House certain information

(1) What quantity of electrical pover was sold and delivered to the Electric r.eduction Co~par.y cf Canada Limited Phosphorous Plant at Long Harbour by the Newfoundland and Labrador Power Commission du~ing the calendar year 1969, and at what ~rice per kilovatt hour was the said power and delivered?

(2) During the calendar year 1969 what was the cost to the Power Commission per kilowatt hour - of the electric power sold and delivered to the Phosphorous flant of Erco at Long Harbour?

(3) During the calendar year 1969, what amount was paid by the Government to the Power Commission or did the ::.. "i· ·:-:_ Govern~nt becoce obliged to pay it in connection with the sale of electric power by the Power Commission to this ~hosphorous ~lant in order to make up the difference between the price at which the Power Commission sold electric power to Erco, and the cost to the Peller Commission?

(4) What amount is it estimated the Government will have - to pay in this connection in the fiscal year commencing April .l, 1970. And the reply given to that question by the hon. the Premier was that he wanted the question left over because important negotiations were under- way now. We are not told who the important negotiations are underway with. In any event as far as Erco is concerned the Government has entered into contracts and agreements with Erco - and the Power Commission has to sell it's power. Surely the public of Newfoundland is entitled to know during the year 1969 what;!;·~

February 24, ·1970, Tape 44, Page 4 -- apb subsidization costs the Government had to pay to subsidize the delivery of paver to Erco at two and one half mills per kilo~att hour. I have heard it susgested that the amount is as much as $3.S_million- the annual cost the Government must pay Erco to subsidize the po~er at that price to Erco.- that that is the difference it ~ill cost. lo.Ttlat :is it costi.ng the Newfoundland and Labrador Power Co=ission to deliver that ~ower?

That is a commission financed and backed by the peopl~ of this Province - surely we are entitled to ~~ow what it is delivering power - what the cost is for it to deliver power to Erco at Long Harbour. We are told that the question cannot be answered - not that it would be answered later, it will be left over because there are important negotiations underway. That is not a satisfactory &<swer - that is not giving the House information or the people of Newfoundland. It is not the House, we only represent the people of Newfoundlan~. - it is not giving them information • .

Question no.53, asked by the hbn; member for Bonavista North - he addressed his question to the Minister of Justice - and the question deals with the pensions of retired Newfoundland Constabulary personnel. The Minister of Justice is responsible for the St. John's Police Force. The bon. member wants to know for example ~ are there any pensions of less than fifty dollars per month - and then various amounts.

The bon. the Minister of Justice replies "ask the Minister of Finance he pays the pensions." If the bon. minister opposite wanted to cooperate in giving to the private members of this House information they are legitimately asking. they would not shilly shally around and say refer this to the minister of finance. They could get the inforcation from them t hemselves -and give it. The bon. minister is responsible for the Constabulary - he can have that information just as reauily available as the }Unister of Finance. That was· not a satisfactory answer.

Question no. 54, another technique used in answering questions in the Bouse. Asked by the hon. member for Bonavista North •••••••• \" ·-

0 ~· ebruary Ll1 t h . ', 1970 T<:.pe no. 45 Pare 1 <iS part of the 'question be asked in part (3). It had to do with housing. The number of economic rental units at Clarenville. Now he did not go into ?etail. He did not say the nu~~er of economic rental units at Clarenville~ owned and oper a ted by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housin!!: Commission or by any agency of the Govern ment. The hon. member is not a lawyer. It is clear to anybody reading that question that what he is asking is the number of economic rental units the Government has at Clarenville. Now if there was any d~sire on the part of the hon.

Minister of Municipal Affairs to give information asked for, he would have given the answer, not got up to say that the question would have to be reworded or would have to be directed to the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Cotronission. The same with part (4) and (5). The number of housing units at H.arJ'stow-n unoccupied and the monthly rental of each unoccupied unit? Oh! yes, if this is a legal case, if these were pleadings, you would go on and ask. You would have to say the number .a£ housinB units owned and operated by the Government at ~!arystown. This is a ~uestion being asked of the Government.

The hon. minister knew full well what is intended by the question, but no, to harass the Opposition, to harass the private members for only doing their job of askin~ for information, ~re is a smart aleck reply. The hon. minister cannot understand the ~uestion. It has to be reYorded and redirected. That is the kind of co-operation. That is what the first day reveals that we are going to get the information for the public of Newfoundland.

Question no. 55, February 23, 1970, asked by the hon. member for Bonavista North about the amounts of refunds of gasoline tax to taxpayer~, of taxes they were required to pay on tax exempt gasoline last year? The hon. ~lintster of Finance answered the questio~ by saying that this is not readily available. So what? This is not readily available, but ve will get it and the han. the Premier includes that answer .as one of his thirty-six. That· is not an answer. That is playin~. That is playin~ with the members of the House and of the public. That is pretend1n~ to ans'~>rer thirty-six of the fifty-six questions.

That is included as one of the thirty-six answers not readily available, but when the bon. minister was pinned down, he said that he vouid get it later. - I --=:· ·'1'1

• Februa!~ 24t~ •• 1970 Tape no. 45 Pa~e 2 No~ the hon. the Pr~rnier wanted ~ e to eY~ine ali these, as you will recall from last ~ight's debate. He challenr.ed me and th~t is what I am going to do. will skip the ones that we agree your answers are satisfactory. Question no. 17, February 23, 1970 asked by the hon. member from St. John's East (Extern). What are the te~ of agreement between the Harmon Corporation and Lundrigans Limited covering the facilities used to fabricate homes, houses at S~ephenville! l The hon. th~ Premier answered that there was an nominal. - .rental -- of~$1~00 . · • a year.

I, \ The question goes o~ table copy of the agreement? There was no answer to that part of the question. No copy of an agreement was tabled nor was it said whether there was a written agreernent or not. Question no. 24, February 23, 1~70 asked by the hon. member for St. John's East (Extern). It asked the hon. tfie Premier or the minister responsible what are the a~ounts and the cost of insurance carried by Hotel Buildin~s Ltd. on the follo~~n~ properties: (

a) Hotel at St. John's; (

b) Hotel at Clarvenville: (

c) Hotel at Gander: (

d) Ulo~el at Corner Brook; (e) !.:Hotel at Port aux Basques; (

f) Churchill Falls Tavern. Hotel BuildinF.s Ltd. is a cro~ corporation that o~~s these hotels. They are operated by another corporation o~ed by private individuals. What is the answer given? The ansYer given is not what this insurance is. k~at the amounts are and the cost. No. The answer is that the insurance is carried by the operator of the hotel. That is no ans~er to the question. That does not anSwer the,question. The operator of the hotel is operating under a contract with the Government. The hotels are owned by the Govermr.ent. If they are insured, the insurance must be payable to the cro~ corporation.

The Government ha-ve:l:!le~~-. : _ -- . ···· . informatica, Why did not the hon. the Premier choose to give it? That is not 11? . ~ . ~ .. ..

February 2l:th., 1970 Tape no. 1,.5 par;e 3 I a satisf~ctory ans~Cer. There ;:.re three c;uestions; no. 3, no. 5, and no. 25, that the han. the Prer.1ie:r inclt:ded i;1 n:ak lng up h:!s thirty-six. These a.re questions he an~\o·ered a p,a in today. Just to take one example: this 'Was a question of dividends. The hen. member for St. John's Centre asked what dividends had been received in Question no. 3 from the Government's share investment in HcNarara Industries Ltd. The Premier got up yesterday to. say that the hen. member cculd not have !:'.;:,ant dividends. He must have meant something else.

It just ~as not sensible to me2::1 dividends. Dividends is a vord I under- stand the meaning of. The Government have a share investment in ~[cNamara Industries. Have they paid a dividend on it? The han. the Pre!Tlier pointed that out and said, ''none." If he meant payments, there could be an answer. The saT:!e thing~ : happened with Question iio 5 and Question ' no. 25 .which were answered today as to payment and these three an~·ers were included in his total of thirty-six. Then there is Question no. 26 on the Order Paper, FeuruarJ 23, 1970 which 'Will probab~X be dealt with later by the hon. member for St.

John's East (Extern). That "'as not answered satisfactori~y. Question no. 48, February 23, 1970. The hon. Minister of Health is not here today. He 'Was asked a t'Wo part question about a survey of positions and salaries in all hospitals in the Province anJ when it was expected to be complett~~ and he gave the answer. Then he was asked what persons or firms are doing the survey and what payments have been made to date. He gave the name of the company doing the survey, but went on to say that as to the cost, the question should be directed to the }linister of Finance. All well and good, Mr.

Speaker- all well and good, if the game is harass the Opposition, harass the private members who dare to ask questions of this Government who dare to bother them, because this Government, the hon. the Premier told us yesterday, this Government, wait until I get the exact quote. "This C-{)vernment, he said,will decide uhat information it is fit to give." Those were the word!J, tha~ the Government will decide what information it is fit to give and that we must be satisfied 'With the ansvers. Well we are not satisfied. Ve are giving notice no'W that nothing will satisfy us but correct and full and complete answers.

So out of the thirty-six questions alleRedly answered yesterday, nineteen unsatisfactory answers. Seventeen were answered adequately out of the thirty-six • • .,

February 24, l970 Tape no. 45 page 4 Now there are five of ~~jor importance in mj vie~. First Question no. 21, February 23, 1970., asked by the hon. rne;oher for St. John's East (Extern). I cannot get over this, Hr. Speaker, that is why I am mentioning that again,. Has Koch Shoes Ltd. permanently closed? The answer was, "no.r; Part (3) - what amount of additional loans, either direct from Government or by Government guarantee, has been made to Koch Shoes Ltd. since April 1, 1968. Ans~rer, :not presently known. Mr. Speaker, this is so dumbfounded, so amazing that 1~ has to be pointed out again.

Here is a Government that docs not presently know whether it has giv~n A loan to Koch Shoes since April 1, 1968 or whether it has guaranteed one. Now to say that that is an answer to a question tabled in this House is ludicrous When will the Government presently know whether in tne ··ye;n: 1968 or 1969 it did or did not make a loan? · PREHI~~~~~~P..P.: . The , hon. gentlem:1n wants to be fair, he vill remel!'.ber aDd he will confirm that. 1 said• . I . did:not. know nor do I at. this moment.

Tj:lere was another question asked about which I said I did not kn~~. but I would have it ~ecked and today I referred to same question again, the second time and said that it was being checked and that we thought the Government had paid somcthi~g toward it. These were two questions, the answers to which I did not know and I did not and at the moment, I do not know. When I ~et it. I will pass it on. MR. CROSBI~~ Mr.

Speaker, if the bon. the Premier did .not know the answer to the question, why did he give itl - . > PREHIER SMALLHOOD: .I sai.d I did not knmo~. ~-· CRO~_!I~L- It is my suggestion that it was to build up the number of questions that were answered yesterday, because we could see the thinkin g . We will show the public of Newfoundland a little ~roup of thinkers, strategist thought on the other s]de of the Rouse . Fifty-six questions on opening day, we will show the public. We will jolly "-"ell ans~1er thirty-six and if ve cannot answer thirty-six, we will pretend to be answering thirty-six.

That is why ve got the answers we got yesterday. We are not going to be treated with cnntempt, if we are, we are ~oing to fip,ht back. That was the answer to Question ·-

' February 2~th., ' Pape 5 1970 Tz?e no. 45, no. 21. Even more importc.nt in my vie "" is the ar-swer to Question no. 43, becaus 'e this involves the whole s uhjecL of our resolution. Tne facts - the facts, tell it as it is. The facts as to the present economic and financial position of this Province and Question no. 43 could not be mere important. Has the hon. the Premi er. it asks, r~ceived reports from or the results of stu'dies by all or any of tke follo~in g in connection vith the policy of the Government: The Energy Board of Canada, and so on.

There is a long list of them These vere studies ttat we ~ere told last year were being done so that the Government would be able to decide ~htther ~e could bring po~er fron Labrador to Ne~foundland economically oc whether in Newfoundland we vere Roinr, to have to depend en power renerated by steam power such as the turbo plant at Holyrood and studies that were going to determine whether we could sell power at two and half or three or three and a half mills and still survive as a Province by subsidizi~g the power.

The hen. the Premier ans>7ered, "yes, all these studies are in." I trust th~t all ministers have got them. I asked in part (2) were all these reports distributed to members of the Government'! The answer Has that this "Was privile~ed information. In part (3), is it the intention of the Government, to m2ke available to members of this Hc~~e and throu~h us, of course to the public copies of these reports and studies? The answer 'l.'as, "no." lv'hy not?

I :.want.:: the members of this House and and the public to know whether this power subsidization policy of this Government is sensible or not or whether it will ruin us or what the results will be to us financially or what the cost benefit position is or whether power from Labrador is the answer or not? The history of that policy is an interesting one. Originally, ~r.

Speaker, members of the House ~ill remember, I do not know when it ~as, two, three,four years ap,o that the Premier announced the great new power policy and that policy was that the profits this Brovince would make from BRINCO on the Upper Churchill were going to be such and the taxes they would receive would be such. That they would be used to subsidize the lost of the Newfoundland Government of sellinp, electric power to larr.e industrial users in this Province at two and a half mills. That annunciation of the policy, that • '

: I l February 24t h: , 1970 Tape no . 45 pa ~e 6 des cription · o f t he polic y was cha nge d l a t e r bec aus e I su gge st i t \.•as f ound t ha t the ~n ticipated prof i ts and t axes fro m BRINCO dev elopment of t he Upper C hu ~c hil l ve~ e not r.oing t o be suffici ent to mee t the los t to ou r treasury of subs i di zing t he sal e of pover o a ~~ss ive scale . The policy g ot chan ged so it became a cost ben efi t policy. In every insta nce , t he hon . the Prell'ie r has e~>:plai r.ed to- us .

In each instan ce, we ,.ill exaoi ne the propos ed i ndus try. h'e will see what t he costs of s ubsidi zation and t he other cost s a re. We will se e what the benefits are to come from the est ablishment of t he ind ustry here. The number o f pecple employed , t he taxes · th ey 'W'Ould pay and so on and if the costs a-re out-wei jZhed by the bene fits, we will do it. That wa s a new d ~ script io n of the policy . I I ·.

,' MR.CROSRIE: -------- is sensibl02 or safe or ~ ·~ · 1iether it ,. .. tll rn1n this Pro-~,~·irH'e. or re the Silviour of the Pro7ince:. Fevin~ the r~rorts is net enou~h. ~avin~ them as one thing readin)!: end studyi.n? th<er.1, then you neec1 to be i!hle to question the p;..•ople "-'ho did them, and ·the que>stion Hent on to nsl~, ~·~~len ~·nu1 c such study he Yr.<lde aj<ailable to the members of the Fouse arr>aren tl y troey are not voir.>; to be.

Is it the intention of the Govermrent to nppoint <1 Select C0mrd.ttee to consider them and to <Juestion the peo?le and e>:amine the people ~<•ho prepared these studies and report s. The ans7er tCl that, 1-/Cl. l-ie] 1 a Select Cor.·.oittee may not be the necessary device. Rut surely the merr.hers of this !louse and the peonle of Ne1.-Ifoundland are entitled to see these rc':Jorts and studies on the most irrportant economic and financial issue I sugr;est that faces this Prouince today. And we are told/ldo, that alone, that ans'·'er t0 thattquestion alone, !-'r.

Speaket justifies this resolution this rrotion of non conficlence. Give us the facts not just the prop,.r,anda and the slo'!'ln.s, the emotional slo~ans, pro?:ress or perish, , develop or perish, make us all feel like he~nes make the people listeninr think that you are a hero. 1\e,.,fotmclland i.s ~;oinf to develot' or perish, ~!e are all involved in a F;reat ••ar, p2.triotism. Patriotism, do not look behind the slogan examine :! t and see if it m;;.kes sense "-'hether the chances ;1re ~~e are roinF;. to pro~ress or are we P-Oin~ to ~erish? That is the philo,onhv or the rolicy of this present administration.

Slo~aneerinf, obscuration, conversation vith the Premier, fifteen tdnutes everv ruornin~ that progrenme JH01"'erlv useti could elucicate these issues that "'e would all \mderstand therr., properly u'lerl, n0t just used for emotion rhetoric and attacks on your nolit:!cal ornonent and general dribhle. The han. Hinister for Social Sl.'rvices ;mel rehabilitation has such a hirh point,in my estimation that r'am no·t p.oing to say a '•on~ deroretory to tl•at hou. !<entl~!nan if I can restrain myself.

Who has no~· this, this is the strate)!:Y, tJ.e hon. ndnister is p;iving it away tha t is it, anynne who criticizes thP policies of this illustrious administration hates the Premier, that is the slor-an, that is the approach, ~ettinp, ready for the · election, ves, anyone that ¥uestions the pol'"er ool icy of thi.s {8ovcrntr.ent hates the Pretnier, he just hates the Pre,.ier thnt love~hle olcl firure. That is roinl! to he the :.stratep.y. PRE~'IFR S~tALLHOOn: ~lr. S!'eaker, '!'ll'int of order.

Once you £>et elected to this flouse and yon have a. seat here ~·ou can talk nnd y0u can laurh and you can hE' heard, But only if you are elected. Anvnne else Pho is inside thP. r.h:tmber is to be seen and ~ot he::~rd :tnd the next t:!l'le T rear nnvth:l.np I "ill call the "mrd "I sry strangers I Yo\Jr'C!kmour knows ~·hat that means, the ga 1] eries "'oulc' he CCil'lr>letelv emnt1 e-el. The,,· ; ' \ ~ , .. I I I

citizens arc ~el:cmed to l·e seen and not heord and the only voices to be heard in this Chanr.er a~e voices of ha~. elected ~e~~ers and no one else. And othcr<.'ise PC could very q,J'i.:'dy turn it into a vaudville sho1-• ;1 dramatic T.V. show, '"e can turn it lnto a circ~s and we can even end u~ having a heer ~arden. M'R. Sl'L-\KER: The House pro vi des that s tranr-ers in the Eo use really means vi. sf tors are not sunposecl to make th~mselves l'earcl hy J aughter or by cor.rrnent or by r.-:oven:ent or anything of that nature.

MR.CROSniE: Yes, the hon. minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation has hroupht up an interestin~ point there. It is nov poing to be made appear that anycne ~o.·ho doP.s not af;ree "i th any pol icy of this @overnment, the present Government, hates the head of the G<ovcrnn ,ent hecau!le the theory is that r::ost oeorle in our Province loves the heac of the Gr.vernrr.ent. They may tell'norarily and on occasion get fed L'P in certain ar~as about what is haf'penin,- on the lack of the government to c!o something or "hat the (fovemment may or mAy not do. P.ut they all love him.

The Ron. the Prel!'ier as the Father of Confeceration, as ~e all do. I myl'lelf was the recipient of a hook this l'lu~rmer, a very fine c ~o:nll'.ent, I think the title was From IToey 1Hth Affection. 1 was ~lad to receive it. The first affecti"D I had received from that hon. ~entlernan in quite a long time. ~e all got that document. T his is the theory that the hon. minister no'" reveale~. Well I assure the hon. I minister now a~ I clid lal'lt nir.;ht that 1 have no !"ersonal animositv towards anyone on his siae of the House at all.

That i~ .1ust the noint I am ~omin~ to, }'r. ~'inil'iter but since you interject th<>.t I thou~ht it 111f.!?ht h~ ··•orth replvin~~:. Because your colleague the hon. !-!inister of C.omcnunf tv and Social .~"fairs l'lade the same sup,restion last ·Sunday so I fi~ured there must be a hit of a consoiracv to it. So forget that personal animosity is rot, nothin~ to it, what \7e are concerned with is the futil~e of this Province • .}1JL S!-!ALUiOOO: The hon, r.en tleman actually enjoyed ret tin!'! licked, didn't he? :t-:R.CROSRIF.: . I alway!l take a geed 3e~son from a lickinr-,_ ~·r.

SpE-aker. }.nd as I commented last ni~ht the han. gentlel!'an opposite is one of the most 1110dest of men Re is not like the great Winston Churchill "~>ho said.' "In Victory }'a.l!T\<~ni.mity." t·:o, the hon. gentleman is more like Abraham Lincoln. PRE~fiFJ't S~.LL1-!00D: Doell the hon. pentlernan remerrber ••• . . MR.CROSBIE: I remell'bcr the hon. ~entleman beinp Ahraham Lincolnish,atrthe Leadership Convention, our great <:ask tflust he >.fr. S"eaker to un1.te the {'arty to heal thP '1-:ounds to reconcile. And the next clay the fanr.s 1-•ent in to th.P hon .l"elflhPT for 'Fortune Ball.

PRF.~IER ~~ALLt.:OOn: The i-on. p.entlel'!lan rerr.et:".ber three or four m1.nute~ after I hac! made that appeql for un:! ty T "'1\5 salute<~ by the h!"n. p.entlPI'!;Jn 's friends ,.,f th the / Y "3 'l- '

got. ~. CP.OSP.IE: I r1onnot knr-~· ~,·hose friends they ···E>rc, trey h<1ci_tl ~l?rt t0 express their own vie~•. r:~s~" :1 V.!~\ !'!!~ITER' SJ·f.t..L_LHO~D: They w~ repno t r.1v friend~. 0 . ._..-,._;,':'- ~) , :..~:)...l· .. I . . ' -. . ' ., t~ .CnOSBH:: Does the hon. !!entle~an. remember in vi in~ this ~o!\· 1!-~:e;~r up to the . L{lJy- platform , to shake his hand after the conventi~n. An · · ~:i:S4i'on . gentleo,an did not exactly rut on the s,:-eed to ~ct there but Pent ul'. And the hon. !(entleman forgot his Abraham Lincoln act very shortly after that CO;'IVPntion was over.

But that is irmaterial, it is not relevant, I sti.ll think that the han. ~tentleman has ma:ny fine qualities hut I lWould not want to snenrl too lonf?' enJi.tm:erating them. The point is Mr. Speaker that we have p.ennine convictions at>out "'hat should and should ' not he done.fot the future of this Province.

That ve think, we Independent Liberals and the rest of the Opposition I am sure feel that these issues are too important for anvthing else to stop us in exnrcssing them and voting and actin~ on them, and it has nothing to do with any smear tactic or su~ge~tion by any hon. member tha~ anybody hates anyone e~~e or has personal vindictiveness arainst the~. grow up, l<ow to f:et hack to the issue, POlol'er subsidy ·, a major issue that we will come back to a~ this Hou~e pro~resses, de~an~ing to have this information, that / can , sink this Province, or else we would hol"'e to brine it on the pro_g:ress in the­ future. l~ dealt 1.•ith Ouestion 44 last nfr.ht, co!'!tel"Ptuous atti.turle of th(! minister of Finance when he was asked this in formation on our finances.

And we were told it was goin~ to he in the budget, in the bud~et, ~hat a document ~e saw here last spring , a blldl!et speech, a hundred and twentv-one -page,.;, the first ni.netv-two of it pickle. And discus,.;ed evervthintZ but the finances of the Province we will be looking for that in the hudyet, bnt I will f!ass that un. That il'l not as :Important. we ~~11 ask about that again.

Question no. 46, the third ~ill, the third pulp and paper mill at Come by Chance, the quastion va~ asked about the Forrestal Forestry and Engineerin~ International Limited studv, They vere asked to conduct a survey to confirm or othenvise the avai11hilitv of an adequate timber supPlv. PREMIER SMALLWOOD: I pave ans,~ers to' questions I had received , the answer to that question. delivered to me from the Department of Finance, the amount of $45,000 paid to Sanrlwell& Co. Ltd. on Oct. 31, 1967.

This pavment represented one ' half the cost of a survey conducted by rorrestal Forestry & Engineerin~ International Limited • !he charge was a~tainst subhead 1512 -·03- 01, F.conornic nevelopment lnvestiF.ations General }~. CROSBIE: I am ~lad to have thnt info~~tion. Rut the auestion, this Forrestal Iff ·. . . .. •.

Feb; 24 1970. Tape 46 p2r.e 4. lh Corr.p!lnY Mr. Sneaker, were asked to con,1ur.t a survey to confirM or otherwise the zvailabili tV,of an adequate tiMher sunnly for the proposed Ne••foundl and Pu] n and r. Chemical CoTCrany Limitec! !-fill at Col!l'! h.y Chance. 1t t•as enJ?ar.ed by our r-c-vernment and by the cornf'any with each I believe tCI 'fl<lY hi!.lftt!..e :cost of the survey. This is the third mill project • That project, the ori~inal a~reement was entered into in 1960, no>J ten years later, this firm "'as asked to do this survey t'l.'o years ago. or more.

The question asked was an interim report received and was answered 1 yes. the question asked, has a final report been received anc! its answer,yes. !'RR:-fiER S~rAI.L!>'OOD__:_ It should have been no. If I said, yes, I '!."as wrong, the answer i~ ~o, it has not. :-~.CROSBIE: !,'ell, the ans~~er to the final report is no. The interim report is yes. PREMIER S~1.ALU.'OOJ1: That is rij!ht. MR.CROSRIE: ~~ether they . have been circulate~ to all members of the p.overnment is privilis;.ed. T he payment !"acle ••e heard that.

Is f t the intention to table the :f:n,t<:rim~repDPt ,,~, ~ny final report 1n the l!ou!;e, no it is not. Not..', l-fr. S!>eaker this is a _pro.1ect thi!t has been underway ten yenrs.' and t:hich if the present agreement is carried out the ~ove't'T1ment of ~icwfotmdland has to ruar>'!.ntee I think / it. 1 is $15 million.

An~ there "Was les>:islation rnssed in this ltnm;e al!lendinl! the a~reement to provide that if it o:.•;~s neceRsary to hrin~ wood to eome by Chance from Labrador because there '~<'as not suffident rulpHoocl on the is] <tnd of ~!evfoundland to keep that mill gain~ ,mid if thi!t ••ere the case the r.C'vernment of ~e,,•fourldland undertook t .o subsicHze the difference tn cost t-et<~ecn •"'od=-~rJtten in ~:e•..foundland and wood taken from Labrador;' they would pay the companv the Btfferenc:e in cost. and that is 'IJhat this F'orrP.stal Corr.panv were as!{cd to report on. ~ow siirely :lt is time for this , the rnel!lbers of this House and throuph them the puhlic of Neo:.~found- land to 'd.iscover what is hapnening \.lith the third mill at Come hy Chance.

PC'es this report show that th-:! cost o,-tt"'" ''srh the benefits or vice versa. Tloes it RhO'IJ that 'wood has to be brour.ht from I.abrador t-ecause there is not sufficient '~<'COd on the island? Does it ;ive anv f.cle<t of '!.'hat the difference 1n cost will he that the government is going to have to pay? Does it say anvthin~ about the constructio of pulp road and who they are to he construc~ed by and paid for? llctes the ,,,a ter supply at Come by Chance have to be subsidi?.crl?

There is to be a power suhsidv power again under this a~reement 1.!1 to be sold that mill at 2.5 mills per kilowatt hour. subsidized p~wer.

w"hat do all t hcr.;; things zd d up to? llo'll does the cost compare to the benefits? Surely, it is ti:oe for this Goven~:::"'nt to present that interim report to the House, or all t he infor mation it has on the project, and let us know vhat the st~tus of the project is - to provide us and the public of Nevfoundland with the facts concerning the present economic and financial position of this Province. Tilat is just one aspect of the economic situation. Another major fault of this administratiort, Mr.

Speaker, along the same lines as this resolution, is the power of positive announcements - announcements made prernat1,1rely by the leader of the : ~dministrationi, nade prematurely before agreemeQts are entered into or even ready to be entered into or before government prgrarns are agreed be t1.reen the GovernL~ent of Canada and this Government. False alarms, fooling the public- we all re~ernher on Fogo Island there was to be a MINI-FRED. Some people thought that meant that the hon. the Minister: of Education was going to send -oae -·oi his -son.S-timm to run. A MINI-FRED.

Then in the fall of 1968> the han. the ?remier announced a gigantic: ).RDA Plan for Western Newfo,.mdland. Three fish plants - $305 or $310 million - somewrrere in that area, the breakdow~ is going to be spent. It vas announced in Trout River and in Ha~ks Bay- now, Mr. Speaker, at that time there vas a possibility that there might be a by-election in that federal district. That may have had something to do with the timing of the 2nnouncement. The han. gentleQan does not think so - I am sure he is ~ight. $10 million in Western Newfoundland was announced by the hen. the Premier. That program vas never entered into.

The true situation was, I believe, that our govern- ment had submitted to Ottawa a plan under FRED for the vest~rn half of i Ne'llfoundland, sugg~sting what our government thought could be done there, proposing various monies to be spent and interstructure and hcrw it should be done and what our government felt should be done and the rest of it. They had presented that plan to Ottawa but the Government of Canada at Ottawa had not come back and said.to the han. the Premier, '~e accept this great program and will participate in ,it. and if ve wish it, then ve ·will put up our share of the money.

That vas not done, but still this great announcement ,:,as made and had to be reversed later, and a few months

.. . , !ebruary ~4, 1970 Tape 47 Page 2 GC later, when the bon. the mini s ter - the Federal Hinister, Mr. Marchand - came out to say that this West Newfoundland plan had not been accepted, would not be gone ahead with, there is n~7 going to be a different approach, and so on, the hon. the Premier is quoted in the pa13er as saying, "There is no change. There is just a change in words." Well, perhaps that is semantics. · SOME :'HON; MEMBER: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the hon. gentleman would permit a question? MR. CROSBIE: I do not like to refuse the hon. member, Hr.

Speaker, but, well, how can I MR. 'T•' W.· RlllWE: Does not the hon. gentleman know that Mr. Marchand's predecessor, the hon. Maurice Sauv~, insisted - possibly in his very presence, certainly in mine and in the presence of the Premier,- and in - the presence of other hon . mia!.sters in the Government of Newfoundland and in the presence of some of his colleagues in the Government of Canada - that this plan that he was requiring, should apply to .the vest coast. 'We did not change the west coast.

It was the Government of eanada that insisted on the I ~est coast and subsequently, unilatery, chang 7d its decision on that. Surely, my hon. friend knows that, does he not? If he does, he should ad!!lit it. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, now that we have been elucidated and enlightened by the han. Minister, I do not doubt at all that it happened that way, but that does not effect my point . Ny point-is, Hr. Speaker, that there v&s an announcement made that this tremendous program"was agreed in going ahe&d at Salt River - PREMIER SMALLWOOD: There was no such announcement. HR. CROSBIE: .4t Hawke 1 s Bay.

PREMIER SMALLt-IOOD: At no place was that announcement made. MR. CROSBIE: That was the great scheme. PREMIER SMALLWOOD: The scheme was announced, yes, but HR. CROSBIE: The money was going to be spent and has not been agreed to by the Government of Canada. PREMIER SMALLWOOD: No, that is wrong. It was said that it vas not agreed If 1 ..

February 24 , 1970 Tape 47 Page 3 GC to. It was said and explain~d that we were hoping it would be agreed to. MR. CROSBIE: Xr. Speaker, I have my own version of what I heard and read in the paper The hon. Premier can make his own explanation later. That is another exa.mple-c€ this announcement technique. Hhat we ~Nant now, Mr. Speaker, the facts straight from the shoulder. What is the picture here in Newfoundland? ~nat are our prospects? The President of the Newfoundland Board of Trades, for example, takes a very gloony view. Other people take a very rosy view, and the truth is doubtless in between.

But, how ~an we get the information to even start to make the.decisions, the judgment or an opinion on it. If this Government will not give us the basic information to do it - n~ there is a conference coming a great economic prospects conference to top all economic conferences. It is going to be bigger and better than the economic prospects report.

Will this economic conference be presented with thesE reports~ Row can they consider the future of Newfoundland and its economic prospects if the people at that conference do not have all these reports--Energy Board of Canada, I P~~er Commission, and the rest, and the Forestal report~. The economic conference is going to be a pure waste of time unless the people attending are given; solid stuff to get their teeth into, given to them several weeks in advance so they can read it and study it and know vhat questions to ask and what to look for. The conference is a sheer waste of time if that is not done.

It is just another propaganda move in the same league vith the great announcements and the great all. Other projects - the Melville Project, which I had high hopes fot, and it seems to be going to go in Stephenville - everything raady for the Spring. Hr. Speaker, in this House in 1967, certain detailed agreements vere dealt with and I vas on a Cabinet committee that drafted the~ and so on, vith other members of the House.

At that time, there was involved a French company, and those agreements were all presented to the members of the House,, and we vent over them in detail and if there vere any questions asked, etc.-, they could be answered. IFf ...

February 24, 1970 Tape 47 Page 4 GC 1\.ro years have gone, two years defin~tely has gone, since that time. According to the ne~spapers, in ~ovember the hon. the Premier executed agreements vith the Nelville companies now called, I think, the Javelin Companies concernin~ that project. >.'hen are the mer.bers of the House going to be given copies of these agreements to look at and study and think about? And even if ve are given them during this session, even if we are, how are we going to peruse ~Qe~ with any profit if we are meeting here afternoon and night?

Another exanple of contempt for the members of this side of th!s side of the House. It takes hours to read one of those agreements, to read it J1roperly. How are t~e going to handle that and the estimates and get questions ready and speak in general debates, if this House meets afternoon and night? l ·can assure the bon. the Speaker, that we will go to the last breath to keep up with it, but we are not being given a fair chance if we continue in these afternoon and night sessions - four nights a ~eek. So, Mr.

Speaker, we zre expecting and in fact, the Government must table I ~ these agreements within fifteen days after the House opens. But, why dove have to wait? They w~re executed last l:oven:b.,r •. Why did not we get them the first day we came in here so that we vould have a few days to loa~ at them and see how they have changed· from the old French agreement. --·for these are now a different pe~ple, there are different agreements, for all kinds of questions co~e to mind.

At one point in the project, the vital necessity was to have two. 65,000 ton ships, burning 'mod ships frolll Happy Valley to Stephenville, and the whole thing was based on the aconomics of havi9g these large ships carry wood chips, because that was said to be a very cheap way of transporting them.

That whole plan got changed last year last December - just before the han. the Premier had his conference in Happy Valley, with people who were not so happy: That got changed and now they.ar~ going to use, I think, 10 or•l2,000 ton ships, carrying round logs which is a mach 1110t'e:1expensive means of transporting wood. Surely, we should have a chance to ask the Government or to ask the promoters how these things tie together if there is a change like this, how the economics .of it adds up. Is it still feasible? ! J I I 1 tr! i

February 24, 1970 Tape 47 Page 5 GC There are all kinds of questions like that. One needs to ask if you are to have a proper appreciation of whether the· project has got a good chance for $uccess or not, and this is a project where this Province is guaranteeing its $56 or $58 ~illion dollars, and really we are in it for the whole amount, because if any part of the operation goes, we are going to ahve to carry it all ~ $140 million. That is what we mean, Mr. Speaker, when we move this motion to provide the public with the facts. The open society, not to even the just society, that is the Helville project.

There is another project going to be discussed tomorrow.- the oil refinery project of Come-by-Chance. Certainly it is time now we had a thorough explanation -expiration of that. There is the ERCO ·situation which I mentioned earlier. There are a number of other situations where we need the facts and the public needs the facts. Everyone kn9~s that this is a small Province with tremendous needs and limited finances, and limited capacity to borrow and limited capacity to press the Govern~ent of Canada to give us more.

I Surely we are entitled to ask this Government to stop sloganaring, to stop bamboozling, to stop the technicolor, to stop ~:. al~ays being so full of apparent optimism, full of great announcements and new goodies until this Throne Speech came. The Throne Speech this year is the first example of more or less getting down to reality for the last few years. That is what this motion of non-competence stands for. I have not got much time left, Mr. Speaker, so I was plar.ning to have a quick look at some of the facts we did not get in the budget speech last year.

The budget speech the hon. the Premier mentioned should be a place where the facts are discussed. PREMIER S~LiiOOD: If the hon. gentleman will allow me, I did not say budget speech, I said budget ·, and the budget speech is part of the budget. MR. CROSBIE: I don't re~ember that, Mr. Speaker. PREMIER SMALLWOOD: And I spelled it out. HR. CROSBIE: I acc~pt the hon. -- MR. SK~LLWOOD: The assets of the expenditure and revenue, all that is the r .

February 24, 1970 Tare 47 budget . MR. CROSBIE: That is the budget . MR. SliALLWOOD: Yes . Page 6 cc HR. CROSBIE: And the budge t speech , Mr. Speaker, should elucidate ~h~t i s in that budget and ~hat are in the estimates I I HR. SMAI.L~'OOD : Not all . MR. CROSBIE: and explain it , and t ell us what we a~e facing, and ~hat our co a:mittt:~ents are and hO"'"' it appears ~.·e ·.;ill meet them. Not ninety-two pages o.f tec hnicolo:- , cot'tparing Newfoundland in 1949 t o 1\e•..,foundland in 1969. You know s omethi ng, Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland has changed in the last ~enty year s . That is what the budget speech told us. .· .. Ill I

We have changed, and the Throne Speech tells us every year we have changed. Every province in every country in the world in the last tyenty years is changed, and most of them have changed for the better. And no Government can claim all the credit for that. Sure we have changed, and if we were still under Responsible Government, we would have changed, but probably ve would not have changed as much or as well as we have as part of Confederation. But vho knows? Who knows? That is not what we want in the Budget Speech.

We want to be told it like it is. 1-.'hen I say "ve" the public needs to be told it ,like it is, That is vhat we vant more of. The Gembers of the Opposition here the Opposition parties or groups, want when they ask questions, to have the questions dealt with satisfactorily - not points of dr&ftsmenship, legal draftsmenship that are tried so often. That is why you need to be a lawyer to even draft a question for the hon. members of the Government here because if you do not word it exactly Mr. Speaker, on the point - they will you some answer that answers the technical wording of your question, but means nothing.

Instead of being men enough to get up and say - "nov I think "What the hon. the member is this, and here is the infomation." -- PREMIER SMALLWOOD: I think what he meant was that, so I am going to give him an answer to what I think he meant in his question. Re did not have the brains to vord it right, but we will guess what he meant - MR. CROSBIE: Now Mr. Speaker, ~e ~et the true illustration of the attitude, the contempt. Ah the hon. men the members opposite - the hon. Premier says they do not have the brains to ask the question properly. Yes, that is the attitude.

Score points off them - the poor stupid dumb members opposite - PREMIER SMALLWOOD: Some - not all. MR. CROSBIE: who are not up to the great high standards of us men in the Government with our seven or nine thousand, or ten thousand .Civil Servants who advise us - and the Premier in his own office, I ima~ine has ten, or twenty or thirty to advise and help. Not to mention the Crown Princes - First,. second and third - there is crown prince number t~irteen - the Minister of Welfare. Mr. Speaker, the hon. the llinister who should be rehabilitated is aptly named in his new department. HR.

STEPHEN .NEARY (Minister of Welfare): Tell us about EPA while you are on your feet- MR. CROSBIE: Listen to him - tell us about EPA. Why do you not throw us another scrap if irrelevancy ·? ~by do you not mention the CBC like the hon. ·:

: member did a Y.ear or so ago? His favourite technique. lolhy· does not the hon. the Hinister of !.'elfare deal seriously with the problems of his constituency when he next speaks in this ~ouse. Not the speech that the hon. }tinister gave us yesterday about technological advances and the problems connected therewith. But crown prince number thirteen Mr. Speaker, should look after his department, and do not get involved in the rough stuff. }m. h~~~Y: The han. the Minister can take care of his own MR. CROSBIE: He certainly can, we can see that - that han. minister can certainly do that Mr. Speaker.

He can look after number one. (Interruption inaudible) HR. CROSBIE: Ah Mr. Speaker, I should get into a rage about that, fly off the handle, say how the han. member hates me, build up sympathy in the public. It is too childish to be involved with. Mr. Speaker, I will be responsible for whatever I say or do in this Rouse, or anywhere in this country -no matter where I was born, to whom, or with what. The people of this Province in my district will judge me for what I say or do today. They will judge you the same way HR. NEARY: The han. Ninister was not born with a silver spoon in his mouth - ( HR.

CROSBIE: Yes, I wish I had two here now in both my ears, so I ~~uld not have to listen to your irrelevant comment - (Laughter) Now Hr. Speaker, I really would not let the Ron. Minister interrupt .like this except that we all sympathize with him- the heavy burden he carries of rehabilitating himself . N~ety-two pages last year. of the Budget. Sources of comparison, general philosophy - certain proposed policies of the Government, particularly with reference to the sale of power at cheap rates, to attract industrial development.

And yet yesterday, the hon. the Premier, will n'ot permit us to see these reports that he now has, to show whether the policy is a realistic one or not. Last year's Budget Speech tells us the Budget was balanced. The hon. members of the Government must think that the private members of this House are pretty stupid. How could a Budget be balanced when it required $15,000,000 to balance it - $15,000,000 had to be borrowed on the Estimates last year to balance the Budget. And then the members of the G overnment have the unmitigated gall in the official Budget Speech to call it'a balanced Budget.

Who are they "' . · .r ••

! fooling? No one. To say there is a balanced Budget Yhen there is a $15,000,000 debt - and you:;hope that the public will not realize it. In the Budget Speech of the pievtbus1ear, there Yas supposed to be a deficit of $46,000,000, and it ended up ~eing $69,000,000 - that ~as called balanced too. In the years Mr. Speaker, from 1964 to the present year - including to March 31, 1969 - there were consolidated deficits totalling about $298,000,000. And all during that time, the members of the Government saying that the Budget vas balanced.

In six years $298,000,000 in deficits - and oirect account alone not to mention ~Jarantees, guarantees of bank loans, bond issues, debentures - you name it, ve guaranteed it. And we are told a balanced budget - and we have nothing to vorry about. And that .does not include short term borrowing. Mr. Speaker, I would like to see this year the Budget Speech discuss this- that in 1971 this Province must repay $32,000.000 in bond issues, that come due in 1971. And in 1972-73 the Province must repay $34;000,000 in bonds coming due.

And in 1974 this Province must repay $27,000,000 in bonds coming due. · In other words $93,000,000 in those three years must be met by the Government of that . day, must be repaid- $93,000.000 - that is apart from Yhat I those governments are going to have to borrow for their o~~ purposes. That ~0 is apart altogether from what they are going to have guarar.tee in the rest of it - in those three years. Let us have some discussion this year of the facts - Let us see how the Government ~roposes to meet these obligations ·coming cue s~ soon. 1971-72-73-74. And these' do not have sinking funds to look after them.

All new money will have to be raised to repay those loans - and the Power Commission has guaranteed loans - a loan coming due. This is the kind of information, the kind of facts that we would like to get· at Mr. Speaker to see where Me are. We appear to be in .a position now, where for this province just to stand still. insofar as the Government is con~erned. We must borrow money. We must borrow money just to say exactly where we ?re today. Let us deal with that position in the Budget Speech - let us give the facts.

Let us stop the sloganeering - let us stop the exhortations, let us stop the appeals of patriotism. Let us stop the suggestions that anyone ~hat opposes a mad, course of this present government is personally vindictive against a?ybody in· that government. What nonsense, what nonsense. If anything the situation is the other way around. ~e on this side of the House i f • I f t d I t

.. JW February 24th. 1970 Tape 1148 Pl!-ge 4 Mr. Speaker are concerned about the position of this Province. We regret the ·failure of this Government to provide us and the public with the facts concerning our economic and financial position. Not only wh~n this House is open, but through the other eight or nine months of the year - ~hen all you hear is the propaganda and the conversations, and the 8reat announcements, and the contra- dictions. Yes Mr. Speaker, just to conclude one or two sentences. We have pointed out Hr. Speaker, I think the contempt with which our questions were treated yesterday.

We point out the contempt with which the requests of the four Independent Liberals is being met for space in this building to properly perform our functions. And we ask the members of this Rouse to support this motion of non-confidence which I submit Mr. Speaker, already has been amply shown to be factual and correct. APPLAUSE: MR. T. ALEX HICK!~.fl.N: Hr. S;"eaker, in rising to S\Jllport this motion. I think I should make it abundantly clear at the beginning that I do not rise in :a- from a position of hatred, I just cannot bring myself to hate anyone in this House.

Nor do I rise again from the dead having been subjected as I h~ard to crushing defeats'and crushing rejections by some people who attended a convention last yeax:. And I think I should make it abundantly clear that there is very little difference }!r. Speaker, berween the Premier and I. There is only one small difference - PREMIER SMALLWQOD: Between the Premier and me - And me - Thank you Mr. Premier. I think that the Premier should resign, and he thinks he should not, and that is a pretty minor difference between the tll'o o'f us.

If we could clear that up and get tha!: cut of the way, all of our problems would be solved - PREMIER SMALLWOOD: All of the han. ~ember's problems mi~ht be solved - Not Newfoundlands. MR. HICK}~N: If I find myself on the opposite side of the House, as I will within not too many months, and I hear of the problems that have been outlined by the bon. t~e member for St.

John's ~est, I will have problems then - but these are problems that I do not tfiink any hon. gentleman on this side of the House will be afraid to face - and to furnish the information and the facts, coldly and clearly, and affectionately, if affection is the word, to the people of this Province. Well I cannot go quite as far as to say that they will be ' J?s .. 4

·~ebruary 2~th. 1970 Tapa 148 Page 5 su\imitted or furnished lovin!'lY to t:he people, but in any event, they will be given th e facts , 'and that is all the people of this Province are asking for at this t ime . Mr. Speaker, ~e have heard in this hon. House from time to time the stroog ref erences, affectionate re .fere nces to the mother of Parlia ment . And this is as it sh ould be, because this hen. House finds a lot of its practices and its proc edures, and its customs, and its usuages in the mother of Parliament .

But yesterday, t e hon. the Pre~er in calling upon the government members to vote against his Resolution - suggested that the Government ~i~l answer the questions as governr.e nt sees fit. And in the same breath spoke ~ the mother of ~a rliament. Hr . Speaker, may I remind hon. members that there is quite a difference betveen the question period, and an~crs whtch are submitted in the mother of Parliament, than the answers and the questions that we find in this hon. House . I I -. jt; l

' ------1. February 24th. 1970 Tape I 49 MR. T. ALEX HICKK~:One Yill find not . only searching questions with clear an&Yers coming from the opposite side of the ·House. But, equally from the Government side of the House. The only one occasion :that I had an opportunity to visit that House. I was the Prime Minister subjected to some of the most servere and searching questions by members of his ovn party, far more so than I would ever see in this House.

And the pain that these han. members go through in the Mother of Parliament, not to misinterpret the question, , not to try and get away with minimum answer, but rather to furnish the people of that jurisdiction ciearly, with all the answers that are requested by opposition and Government members aiike.

Whether it is respect or ~hether it is political intuition or what it is - does not beco~e to say it, I do not know it, but I do suspect this, and I do suggest this, that the Mother of Parliament, that the statesmen who finds himself fitting in that Parliament and the statesmen who finds himself sitting in the House of Commons in Ottawa, know full well, that if they should ever moneky around with this cherised tradition of furnishing all facts, to the people that they serve, that they will get the back of their hand the next time they go back to the people for endorsement of their policy.

And what I ask of the Government today - SOME EO~. P-EMBER: Inaudible. MR. T. ALEX H!C!Q:AN: I beg your pardon? SOME RON. ME}rnER: Was it the present Prime Minister of Britain? MR. T. A. HICIO'.AN: The present Prime Minister of Britain. A man ~ho through my knowledge had never failed to answer clearly and unequivocally, questions put to him by both sides of the House. And I never hea~d, or never seen the Prime Ministers put under such servere scrutiny as that hon. and learned gentleman was put under by the members on his side of the House. , But, this is

part I submit, Mr. Speaker, of the responsibility of forming a Government in any area where we have a parliamentary system of Government. And it . is not smart, and it is not good Government, and it is certainly is not politically proven, to try and get away with the minimum answers that are requested and asked by hon. members of the opposition or indeed hon. members of the House, I look forward to the day, maybe we will see it in this session. we have on the gove~ent side of the House, ~any backbenchers, who are dying to find out what is'going on in Government-' ·. SOME RON. ME~ffiER: Not too many, any more. ----------·----· ------- ----·-----

HR . T. A. FI ICKMAN: They would love to know what is going on in Government . Their constituents are asking them what is ·going on in Government? And they do not know. And I look forward before this Session ends, that they will exercise, as I know they vill, their first responsibility to this Province, and they too will ask in demand searching questions of the Govern ment of this Province. And I am waiting not with faith of breathe, but with most anticipation, because my generation of Newfoundlanders still beleive that we can teach democracy lies in this Province.

They still believe, that we will follow the great tradition of parliamentary government and parliamentary procedure in what was Britain's oldest colony, and vhat is now regretably not a very happy Province. Well, Mr. Speaker, I do not want to take issue with the bon. the member from Humber East or the Hon, the member from St. John's West, the hon. the member from St. John's West bas just disappeared, and I am told that I cannot trust him out of my sight, but I hope that he is still within hearing distance.

But, I do find that they are not completely right 1 when they say that from the questionv ~~ich were answered in the House yesterday - no new information, no new facts were . elicited. That is not quite so. . Last night, when we were debating question No. 49 or the question that was asked of the minister, the hon. the Minister of Finance - No. 44 concerning the guarantee debentures of municipalities guaranteed / by this Province and other guarantee,, the bon. the Premier . pointed out that in due course. if there are any guarantee. if any guarantees have been made since this bon.

House last met, if any have been made, then there will be a loan and Guarantee Act brought before this House. But as of yesterday, no ~rantee have been . made sin.ce this hon. House last sat. So we now know, that we only haVe a fev weeks from now until the budget is brought down in which guarantees can be given. And that is. a vital bit of information. SOME BON. HD!BER: That is good. MR. T. A • . HIOO~: That is a vital bit of information t~at came yesterday to the public of Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, also yesterday we found out that there appeared to have been a change in Government policies.

The bon. the Minister of Education by question 7 was asked information concerning the total anticipated cost of Memorial University Buildings at Barlow? And the anticipated cost of operation! And what the expenditure was up to December 31, 1969 for Capital Costs? And the reply of the. hon. the minister of Education for the information - for the information of hon. ~bers, for the rest of this session was that he Will not furnish any information to this bon. House relating to the : Internal Administration of Memorial .. • /9J

l'.K. - j Feb~ary 24th. 1970 Tape ;49 University of Ne~foundland. H~ good are our memories? Bow many hon: members can think back to about this t~e last year? Not quite this time last year - last April, when ve were doing estimates, and when we spend two days in this House arguing ove.r one item, and debating cne item of Menorial University's Vote. And at that •• .. & time, the position was ~~de abundantly clear and indeed we almost faced the crisis in. education that could of had serious ramifications throughout the Province.

But in the beginning of that debate the position was made abundantly clear, that if Hemorial University was going to spend the people's money, then Henorial University was going to have to furnish all the facts to the people's House. Nov that policy has been changed. And I cite these two examples simply to reassure the people of this Province the questions are not being asked by members in opposition, simply for the. purpose of getting their names on the Order Papers or simply for getting their names in the paper, or simply for embarrassing the Government. PREMIER S~ L\LLl,TOOD: ask him a question? Mr.

Speaker, perhaps the hon. gentleman will allow me to We are talking of the debate HR. T". A. HICKHAN: · This has not been the practi!=e, Nr. Speaker, since this session st~rted, but I .... PREMIER SNALUIOOD: I have heard half a dozen occasions at least yesterday, and today, the hoo. gentleman says, last year we debated the question of the Vniversity in spending and paying public money to the University, and it vas decided that we would not do it unless they gave us all the information. He was a member 6f the Cabinet, when was this decision made? Of course, I heard of it, it is now from him now.

That a decision was made that we would not vote money in this House to the Un:lve-r:sity without all the information - the decision was definitely :· not made and he must know it was not made to this moment. SOME RON. MEHBER: It was done here i? this House. HR. T. A. HICICHAN: Hr. Speaker, I am not referring to Yhat took place within the secrecy of the cabinet walls at all. ~~at I am saying - PREMIER SHALLHOOD: Will, it could only be done in Cabinet. MR. T. A.

HICKMAN: The hen. the Premier must remember that for two days and two nights. maybe three days, one little item in the·.estimates of the hon. the minister of Education, one item under Memorial University, it brought on a debate where

! ________ L _ the Government, not right through the debate, but towards the end common sense started to prevail. nut, in the beginning of this debate it made low and clear I by the hon. "the Premier, by the han. the Hinister of Education, and by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, because if you will recall, the han. the Premier almost came over and embraced the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. when it was suggested that any monies that were beinp. asked for by Memorial University of Newfoundl and, the fact would have to be furnished to this House.

PRD1'IE!l. s:- ~\LU:OOD: · But, will my hon. friend answer the question? Was there a decision that in future this House would not vote money - there was an argument that thats how it ought to be? I ask the question - was there a decision that this House would not vote meoney to the University unless the University presented the details of the expenditure? Was that decision nade? !lo ,_ Nr. Speaker. And that is not what I am saying. I am PREHIER 5!-'ALL\;'OOD: We ll, good, that is all I want. }~. T. A. lliCKl ~\il": \\nat I a;n saying, l!r.

Speaker, is that the policy of the Gov~rn~~~t - net the decision of the !louse, the policy of the Govern~ent ~as er~ciate~ _ time and time again, but no~ the policy has been clarified. The han. tbe Hini s ter of Education has made it quite clear, and this is worth something, / this means that questioning in this House will let the people of Ne~o.•foundlc:nd, and the people at !·!er:orial lJniv<!rsity know where they sta."ld. Nm•, Mr. Speaker, the hon. the reember for St.

John's \.lest had dealt in great lenr;th lo'ith the question that have been asked and some have been answered and .a great ll!at'.y not very satisfactorily so in this han. House. And in part:icul.3r, he referr-ed to the forest all report anq the detailed requested in quescion 46. ·I The distrubing part, t!r . Speaker, of the ansl·rer to question 46 i!i' the ;,:nswi!r to the last paragr~ph - Is it the intention of the Government to table this said interim report or nay final repo:-t in the House? And the an5',•cr is a cater.orically "z.lo". And to 'sub-question 4 the answer is that these reports are privile~ed • .

No~~. ~:r. Speaker, most Govern ment - .certainly go.,..ernment ·operating in the Atlantic Provinces of Can~da, and probably all governments of Canada - have from time to. tir-~.e to make substantial confession, substantial public fllftds, substantial guarantees, and substantial grants available to private corporations. And presumably private corporations, they maybe -induced, they maybe asked to come into a particular province, but for one .reason or another, ·they decide they want to avail of monies ; in the public chest to assist them in establishing · an industry. ....: ,. r: c/' ' l I ~ •• I

:' ... ... ; PK - 5 February ~4th. 1970 Tape 6 49 And what I say, Mr. Speaker, is this, that once any company or any person decides to use money belor.ging to the people of New~ oundland to enable them to establish an industry in this Province, that information relating to that development is not privileged. This is not the case of two private corporations sitting down and negoitating with each other.

This is not the case of a corporation going into a chartered bank and trying to borrow money. if Nor is it the case of a private corporation trying to sell shares, well/they t~l~dt~ to sell shares on the open market, they would have to give in their prespective all relevant information as to their reason for their additional requirements. This does not fall at all into that category.

This is a case where public funds will be spent, have been spent, and what is ~ore important, where people have been living in the hon. t~e member·for Trinity South is aware of this, he is concerned about it, that there are people living in Sunnyside and Come-By- Chance and in that . . Trinity ·South Area, who have been waiting there for ten year ·s, waiting in anticipation of developments at Come-By-Chance, and this is a serious, this is a' dreadful effect that falls, Mr.

Speaker, from making announce~&nts and not disclosing the fact to the people of this Province. t~y cannot the people of Sunnyside, decide why could they not in 1960 Ch~istmas Eve when their was an announcement made, I think it was sixty, but it was Christmas Eve anyway - of th~s plan. ~~y could . they not be given the opportunity to decide whether or not there was to be an industry there or whether they would make plans to go to some other area of employment vithin this Province? But they stayed on, year after year, after year, after year.

AJ:;,tays · ~ aiting, because when the Head of the Government makes a st~temcnt the people in this Province · ~re entitied to assume that this 1nformation _is factual. They are entitled to assume that all feasibilities studies have been completed. They are entitled to assume that the money is ·available. And they are entitled to assume that this will be a profitable venture that will provide permanent employment for them. j_cl -,. -. •• ,.

• MR. T.A.HICKm.'l: They do not have it. ~qlat is so vrong with letting the people of Newfoundland knot;, \·1hy not let ther.~ make up their o•:n minds? Then they can decide. but the hen. the member for Trinity South knows that what I am saying is true. SOME RON. MEMllER: Not exactly HR. HICKMAN: And so does the hen. the member for Placentia East. He has the same problem and he has had' to live with it for ten years in and around Come by Chance and all down through that area.

This ' is' not right- it is not right t~ withhold facts from the people of Newfoundland and muck up their lives 'When they could be finding gainful emplo::r-ment somewhere else - or at least attempting to. SOME RON. MEMBER: Do they not? UR. HICKMAN: No HR. STRICKLAND: t.'ha t? HR. HICKMAN: Some do. some do not HR.. STRI Cl\.'1.A.'ID: I . ~~uld like the bon. gentleman to prove that statement they that do not MR. HICIOIAN: I have heard it from you ~IR. STRICKLAND: No you have not sir. you have MR. HICKMAN: I heard you say it right in this MR. STRICKLAND: No you have not MR.

HICIO!A..'I: I certainly have MR.· STRICKLA.'ID: Get the Hansard MR. HICKMAN: Get vhat? MR. STRICKL/u'ID: Get the Hansard MR. HIC~'l: Why not - 'What year? .· not House MR. STRICKL~'ID: I do not know the year the hon. gentleman is talking about HR. HICK!-t\N: l.fuich years Hansard do you \:ant. which edition? · t!R. MURPHY: We 'Will have to get Sherlock Holmes to find it MR. STRICKLAND: The bon. gentleman was not listening I· HR.

HIOOIAN~ There are people hanging on and the hon. the Uinister for Trip.ity South knows this - hanging on to their homes right nov in Sunnyside and have been desperately for years because that carrot is still there. HR. STRICK.LA."lD: The hon. gentleman does not know what he is talking about SOME HON. !-1EHI3I:R: lo'hat is a carrot! HR: B lek.."'1AN : I a::~ beg-inning to learn. :rou know 1 111ay - .. !probably I made the ).Dt--;

I mistake of listening to you, but I will not do it ~~y more. I SO~!E HON. HEMTIER: The hon. member knows he should never refer to another member as "you" MR. HICKMAN: : Thank you, thank you, the bon. member for rehabilitation I can never repay you. MR. }fURPHY: He is the hon, member ' MR. HICKHA."': You· can stop trying to rehabilitate me now, I have pas.sed the point of no return. j MR.

NEARY: I am afraid the hon. gentleman could be a welfare recipient very quickly I No, I certainly will not, because if the people of Burin have their way - and as long as there are still salaries going for the members of the Rouse of Assembly I will not be a welfare recipient. MR. NEARY: tlor the han. member for St. John's West MR. HICKMAN: You do not have to worry about that " and any time you co have any worry about that come down and have a look at me if you are man enough to try. MR. NEARY: Cr the hon. gentleman sitting on the hon. members left or on his right.

SOME HON. ~U:~ER: They will apply - very welcome MR.. lll CIO!A.'l : Mr. Speaker, we were told in reply to a question answered in connection with Erco - that delicate negotiations are going on and it is not in the public interest to furnish answers to the questions t~at were tabled or the various parts of this question from question no; 50. I can only assume Mr.

Speaker, I can only assume that ~hatever negotiations are going on with Erco it must be with a view to reducing or to increasing rather the cost of power as furnish~d by the public utility - the Power Commission to Erco, If this is not what it is all about, then there is n~point in having negoriations. MR. WELLS: I hope he is not reducing it MR. HIC~~: Increasing it MR. WELLS: Yes, I hope he is not reduci~g it MR. HIC~!AN: t·lell I would hope he is not reducing it either, but that would be most unlikely.

But it would certainly not be in the public interest and we·are told that these important negotiations which are in the public inter~st cannot be disturbed. Now if these negotiations are leaning toward an increase in the cost of power to ·Erco- if that is what the negotiations are all about then how can the disclosure of these facts- hoY can . an answer to · a question as to how •

.· : • much rower t~ey cons~c or use up in the run of a year - or how much they paid last year effect these delicate negotiations? I Mr.

Speaker, this is the type of information that this House must ' have - because I have no doubt that before this session is over we Vill be I asked to make - to vote .·on legislation making further concessions to industry or to substa~tiate or to confirm concessions that have already been made, At1d if they involve . p0\1er - if the power policy is going to be· I implemented - if we are going to provide subsidized power to increase jobs in .this Provinbe then at least we want to know what it is costing us in Erco I I and we are entitled to know. Mr.

Speaker, there is a question on this Order Paper that when I saw it first I thought it had been asked by the bon, the member for Placentia West. Because th~ hon, the member for Placentia West and I - we have had our problems on the Burin Peninsula - unfortunately for him it been related to the town of Harystown . more so than on,the peninsula generally - but any adversity on th~ south coast of Newfo~1dland unfortunately spills over into other areas.

And the answer to the question that was asked of the hon. the Minister of Fisheries concerning the fish processing plant in Marysto~~ the answer was that no such feasibility study had been carried out by the Government but that one had been carried out by the company - that that was privileged,a'ld that the report of Kates,Peet,Marwick ali.d•'Mitchell provided and asked for by the GOvernment was privileged too. \ i No11 Hr. Speaker, you may say but why should the Government - vhy should the Government furnish this in{ormation1 Why should the bon. the member from Placentia West know that - I will tell you why Mr.

Speaker. Because in the town of Narystown today SOME RON. MEMBERS: What - what was that? HR. CANNING: They said I could get the· information. if 1 wanted it- I went into the department and got it MR. HICKMA..~: Why can no~~bave' it? Not just the hon. member Mr. Speaker, for .Placentia Wes_t - but as he knows and I am not criticizing him for this, because some of my constituients worked there to - this is not a private company.

The Atlantic Fish Processing is a private company - it all depends on your definition of private - I say that when the Government pays the full cost of ·the plant, even though it paid many millions more than it should have - vhen it pays the full cost _of that plant - that is not a private· company. as public a company as. you can find. . .. -. . _ __;_ . __ , ·-.. .

I SOME HO~. }lEMBER: Here, here HR. HI CK.!-'.AN : 1 But let me get back to the point that I am making. In Marys town today, as in no place on the south coast we find a great deal of unce:.-tainty - ~we find a great deal of gloom - we find a great deal of' ' unhappiness - and the people know tliat when they see these layoffs \ particularly in the shipyards they knm• something is amiss. N011 these people I have to make their plans. They want to know whether they should take· employmeot somewhere else if it is available.

They want to know whether or not they I should assume ~he burden of these expensive mortgages that they have to I assume in that fnew housing develupmcnt in }!arysto~~. And all they ask, and I know that the han. the member for Placentia would ask for them - is give us the facts. If the report of ~l?.s, Peet, Harwick and Hitchell shows that this industry has a good future, and that it will only be subject to c~anges iD ". the market condition which any fishing industry · is subjected to we will stay and glad to stay.

But if it shows . that because of the cost of the ~lant that this compnay cannot survive - or if because the apreheosion was created by an

article which appear'in Atlantic Advocate on Atlantic Sugar General -if these things are true then we want to know, We will be disappointed - we will be upset - but we are entitled to know, If we have to go and move to Burin,or Harbour Breton, or Harbour Grace, or Fermuse or somewhere to be gainfully employed in the fish processing indust~~ we will do it - but why keep this information from them, Who says =t . that the people of Marystown are 1JuSt as well equipped as anyone in this hon. House to decide whether or not they have a viable profitable industry?

Of course they are, and all we ask is - is it or is it not? We all hope that it is a viable industry - we all expect it. Those of us who com~ from that part of the coast watch with a great deal of apprehension as to the way that comple developed and the unnecessary cost and expenditure that went into it. But ve would like to know - and the hon. the member from Placentia west as he nods there in agreement knows that what I am saying is true - and this is not an unreasonable request. There is nothing - but nothing sinister about this type of question Mr. Speaker.

What I ask of this ~ouse, and why I support this motion is not out o{ a sense of embarrassment to any particular minister - it is not with a viev to try to embarrass the Government of this Province - but what I would like to see on the part of the Government of Newfoundland is some overt act - just · some little act - some actiorr which would indicate that the Government of cfo('" · ·-\

......... . .. . I Newfou.r.dland ha3 the courage and the confidence to take the people of this Province into it's confidence. Because, and I should not warn the Government of this at all ' - I should say "go to it.:. hide everything" because if the Government tak~s Newfoundlanders into their confidence - or it's confidence - or if the Government will tell them the facts - our Newfoundlanders are capable of making up their o~~ minds.

But let us try - let us dare to hold facts from the people of Newfoundland - let us ·dare to give smart ans~ers - or let us dare with contempt point at the Opposition and say 11 ycu nasty, nasty I boys you should not ask questions." If we dare do that - there will be a day i of reckoning coming SOMF.: HON. MEMBER: It is coming MR. HICKHAN: And it has to come within eighteen months - and if we dare do that to the people of Newfoundland they will give the Government the back of their hands - and let me tell you their hands are poised right now.

This is a simple request that I asked - the simple change - the not unreasonable c~ange that I ask in Government policy. Take the people into your confidence it is their money every .cent of it. Because, if Ye put $9.5 million into the fish plant at Harysto'Wtl, there is not much point in the hon. member.for Placentia West asking to have the road to Parker's Cove upgraded because, you cannot do both.

If you give our people a choice and show them that the mo~ey is being well spent they will say give us the industry first so the oth~r will follow, But cy concern is, and the concern of the people of Nelo1foundland is that we are spending far too much money because we have never had to account to them as to \vhere this money goes. It is their money - for that reason I see nothing silly - nothing sinister about the motion that has been put by the bon, the member for Humber East.

But rather what I do see is a challenge to every hon. member !u this House to do his duty - and there is only one way he can do it and that is to support that motion as I will. APPLAUSE: MR. SPEAKER: 1s.the House ready.for the question? MR. H.R.V.EARLE: Mr. Speaker, in speaking in support of this motion I should like first of all to clear a matter which of course has great bearing on this because~ if I do not do so there can be no credence or no faith placed in what I say. What I am referring to is a matter in which I tried to rise on a couple of occasions before, but I could not get my words listened to.

The fact .is that I have been br&~~ed in . the first day of this Assembly ·' as a person who scrabed ar-.d scra10bed to try to hold on to a job vhich \lould indicate that I am the type of p~rson that is so anxious to hold on to a job -;7~~

February 24, 1970, Tape 50, Page 6 -- apb so anxious to get money- so heart-sick when I lose ·it that I will ·do almost I anything to ': hold on to that~ This was so comple~ely false that I say it I without vindictiveness or any particular taunt that any person on this side or the other side of this House that - that statement is completely and . \ absolutely false. The proof of this is in the fact of the case as .it happened. On October 27th. I handed the Pr~ier of this Province my resignation which I I he refused to accept.

To show that there was no vindictiveness in me on that occasion I would just like to read that resignation: Han. J.R.Smallwood Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador Dear Premier: It is with deep regret that I tender herewith my resignation as Minister of Finance for the Province of NewfounJland and Labradoc and as a member of your Cabinet. I shall continue to serve as H.i:l.A., for the district of Fortune Bay for as long as the people of that district want me.

This does not in : any way reflect the lack of recognition by me of the many gr~at things which you have done for this Province since becoming it's Premier, ncr can I dis~egard.~he magnificent initiative and tireless energy with which you have led your Governcent. I shall always be grateful for having had the opportunity of serving under you.

After the most serious, careful and prolonged thought I have come to the conclusion that our Province needs a different type of ~erson and one with a very different approach and outlook to deal with the kind of problems now facing us, and with which we are likely to be confronted for some years to come. In the .. ·._ . .. -.

.,. • In the present leadership race, I feel ·that ¥-r. Alex Hickman has I the qualities and kind o.f ability most suitable to these times and circumstances and, therefore, I shall support him. I feel honour bound to withdraw from your Cabinet as otherwise I should not feel free to render to Hr. Hickman the full support that I must give him. Of that I feel, Mr. Speaker, I expressed my sentiments at that time and expressed them ever since. !,'hat happened since then has been given wide publicity. It is generally known to the public. I have never scraped or I scrubbed to hold on to a job.

In fact the greatest favour the Premier of this Provi.nce has ever done me "Was to male it easy for me to resign from his Cabinet, because for a full year ~efore that, I went around 'With my resigna~ion in my pocket, a constant battle of conscience going on in my mind. I knew full well what "Was ~oi~ on in this Government, and I had to balance from day to day, from night to nig~t and many sleepless nights, whether I could remain with this. rbere was a stronR tug of loyalty, but I c~uld not in all efforts carry on much longer.

This particular instance for which I shall be grateful gave me the opportunity to step out ~racefully, to hold my o~~ dignity and to hold the respect of Newfo~~dland people and for that I am truly grateful. Now having disposed of this, P.r. Speaker, I do not propose to refer to it an)'":'Ore. This is old ~~ater rmdcr ce brlc!ge c:.r.d I for i:ty pc:.rt in t:1is session of the House \~11 try not ~o shov any vindictiveness or any ill feeling, but I will try with all the ability that is at my disposal to gain th~ true facts to whi~h our people are entitled.· That, ~.

Speaker, is the reason to say that I ,. am sitting over here with the Progressi~ Conservatives, the official Opposition. a This is not an easy decision. It is not a decision that person ~ight take to change around because there are things vhich are said about a person. It does not help make one feel any better, although they ~e untrue.

I was truly worried, and I am truly vort'Ed'about the future of this Province, and the resolution "Which is before us today expresses in very simp~e · terms '1-Jhy I am worried and this is basically one of the reasona, one of the main reasons why I _am sitting on thiS side of the House today. There has_ been throughout the years and I have been party to it and a~iz· some responsibility for it. i was a memher of the Government for seven and a half years and I cannot evade that ·responsibility. There has been great evide~ce .,.

February 24. 1970 Tape no. 51 Page 2 of lack of responsibility in spendin~ the people's money. Unfortunately, as a young member of Government it takes time to catch up with this and again unfortunately within that Government, it is very difficult indeed for a person, even a member of the C~vernment to find out really what is going on. Now I am quite sure that the backbenchers of the Government have not the faintest idea about what is going on. Hhen I was a backbencher, I did not know. There is no such thing as a caucus. A caucus is just a pep talk i by the Premier.

There is no discussion, no debate or any argoment of anything of that sort. The members have no chance to really know. They sit there as, i pup its and they say, yes, when th.ere is a .vote called. Anyhow that is the way this Government has been conducted and this is one of the reasons why I am here as I said previously. The trouble is in this Province that ve have almost had full-time occupation -in Government in trying to remedy some of the terrific mistakes that have been made over the years. Here again, Hr. Speaker, was one of the ~~in reasons why I accepted the Premier's invitation to join that Government.

I had felt all along that perhaps things have not be going as they shotud have been going and that possibly, if I accepted his invitation to join the Government, I could be of some use. I a~ conceited enough to feel that over the yea•s I w~s of so~e use to this Government. There are !!'any thinrs in which I had a finger ~ich helped to remedy some matters which would have been .to . the detriment ~ of this Provi"Qce.

But for the ones that you want while you are a member of the Government, the number that you lost is very disheartening and frustratin~ and this brouRht ab~ut the continual babtle of conscience to which I refer. I refer to past mistakes. Now it has been the practice of the Opposition in th~ past to dig up some of the old things way back and frankly, when I sat on the other side, I did not like them. I do not agree with dip.~ing up old skeletons. Things are passed and done with and the least said about them the better.

But just to clear my point in referring to the sort of things that ve have to try to cope with and try to remedy. I heard in a question asked that Koch Shoes Ltd. had not been closed. If the true facts of what Koch Shoes has cost this Province were revealed and what ••• ·<,

February 24th •• 1970 Tape no. 51 Page 3 it is continuing to cost ever come out that in itself would be enough to make the people of this Province hopping mad~ We had another little industry which is closed dovn recently. Brigus Knitting I Mills. This has cost the Province a fantastic amount of money. I have not got the figures. I am sorry. They can be very easily obtained. This has cost a tre~endous amount of money and to no good a purpose.

For sometime there was only something like fifteen people employed over there. k~y carry on a sham? · Why carry on something of this sort that is of no real~ benefit to the people and at a tre~endous cost to the taxpayers. MR. HURPHY: 1-lould the hon. member permit one question. The hon. n:ember informed me at this time that there 'is an auction going on at Torbay Atrport of the products or the materials from Brigus Knitting Mills? - ~ .... ~.\P.LE_:_ I have no idea •. As a matter of fact, I did not know there was an ~tion going on. but I am glad to hear it. because at least we may get something back.

There was an attempt at one point in this particular instance to almost give this particular industry away to a gentleman who applied for it and had not a few of us colleagues been smart enough. I think it would have been given away. Yes, zl=ozt ~!ven a~ay. Now there is another industry which we are all happy to see is employing a n~~er of people and it is giving quite a number of jobs and we are all very 1 very pleased to see Jobs going. That is the steel plant .in by the Octagon.

We all hope most sincerely that that prospers, because if it goes:ahead. it will probably become a buyable proposition and give employment to our people. The Newfoundland people !'~•ould b~ told very. very plainly what that costs and wat each job in there has cost them, and hov this has been passed out literally on a platter to be worked out on very, very ~enerous terms. I do not think an industry given to anybody on such terms could fail to show a profit.

I hope in the-~ears to come, it will show a profit and that it will get back on its feet and that the Government will be repaid nery cent that they put into that. By the time that place is paid out ~nd what it costs eYen figure that modest rates of interest for the time that the aoney has been outstanding, it will have cost this Government. I do not know. possibly something in the rate of $16 million c .. . .) 'J((: c?' ·. ·. ·. ·~

~ .... " " .. ~ .... :,." ... ~.:.,.. ~ - : February 24th., 1970 Tape no. 51 , Pap;e 4 $18 million. That is an ·a;1ful amount of ~ney for the jobs provided. There is another policy of Government which I disapree most hearted~y and this I brought up from time to tirr.e, but it never seemed to make an at.rful lot of sense to some people. The whole policy of tax exemption to industry, to attract industries into such places as Stephenville and Bell Island. Heaven • I I knows we ~11 feel that almost super human efforts must be made to bring industry into this Province for : the sake of our people.

Here again in many instances. I when these prorositioo~ were put alu~st in spite of common sense, one would vote I for~them because one w~s so anxious that jobs should be provided for our people. I But a balance must be made as to r,.•hat the jobs are worth and ·,rhat it does I employ and how many people will benefit. The tax exenptions for industry, in my opinion, is completely the wrong way of going at it, because the policy of the Government has been in their mad rush to get industries into a ~lace is to throw the door wide open. They are almost exempt from everything.

The ~w~ers in the Department of Finance, the senior officials and so on use to come to oe, when I was minister and say, look, for Heaven's sake cannot v~ ~et some sense to this thin~. If they are going to be exempt, what are they exe~t from? What items are exe~t? For what pe~icd of time? If the company is making a prof :It, arE" they still to be C}::::~t? This is the sort of thin~ that should have all been incorporated into this exemption, but this was not done. The consequence was that it could ~o on almost indefinitely. Somebody asked a question about the Lundrigan homes out there.

I remember very well raioing a question on one occasion. As these pre-built homes were built, just what of it was tax ~~mpt? Were "the refrigerators, lightfixtures and the this and the that and the other things going into it tax exempt? . Was it just the frame of the house itself? I never got a satisfactory answer. In fact~the answer I did get was rather amazing. t-!hat Lundri~~;ans want, they get. ~~Kl'~_:__ It .is a clear answer anyway. HR. EARLE: · It is a very clear answer. It is equivalent to some of the answers we had today. PREHIER SMALWOOD: Was that in Cabinet? ---------- J/1 _,_ .. ,

..... · .. February 24th., 1970 Tape no.Sl pap.e 5 MR. EAP~E: No that Yas not in Cabinet. PREHIER S!-',ALL1-lOOD: Be. very careful about what was said in Cabinet. MR. EARLE: I am. - ~~~~~~~LUOOD: So everthing that is going to be said will be said outside Cabinet. _MR. EA~~ I will be_ extremely careful about what was said in Cabinet. I I PREHIER SHALLllOOD: Ah! I noticed that. Nothing that was said in Cabinet . is going to be said here. ' So, therefore, it had to be outside Cabinet, right? i MR. EARLE: I wish the hon. Premier was always so careful about things that were said in Cabinet.

I have heard this in public and among huge gatherings of people sometimes about things that ~ere said in Cabinet. We wondered where the rumors came from. However that is & ~ side issue • The subsidization of the ERCO plant which may come close to $3 million or something of that nature is for the power. It has been talked about pretty f~ely here today.

The unfortunate situation there is that, of course, as that industry grows and the more power they use the !!lore it will cost Newfoundland, unless these agree~ents which are hinted at today are reaily something of substance and that the rate may be increased or that the exemption may not be as big in· some way. I do not know. The matter of Stephenville brings up a rather interesting question. I am using these, Mr. Speaker, just to illustrate my point that there is reason for this motion of lack of con!id~nce.

Stephenville we were told in Ansvers to Questions or in discus,.icn, I just forget which, _is J!Oing up quite nicely. There are a fev industries being provided and the employment fi~ure is rising. All Newfoundlanders are very, very happy ind~d to hear 'that. We hope that the linerboard mill out there will be successful that many more thousands of· people will f _ind employment as a result. We hope that it vill not be too great a cost to this Government vhile it is bein~t created, but in Stephenville. I jU.St put·: _ -:;-: · in a casual remark the other day as to - I think it vas the bon.

Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources brourht up this subject. t>hat about the things which are d9ing good out there? I just called out Atlantic Brewery, I suppose will head l'

~·.· .... .... • • i February 24th., 1970 Tape no. 51 par:e 6 the list. My reason for sayin~ that is that it is in the public record now that the Atlantic Bre~;ery cues thi!'; Province something over $410,000. This is because commissions on beer which they sold were not paid. Not it took me a full year, twelve months, from Oct?ber to this October to get that brought before Cabinet. I I am not revealing the discussion that was on it or anything of that nature, just the fact that it took m,e twelve months of constant pressure to get that fact I discussed by Cabinet.

In the meantime this _debt was hanging over us. ~~ITER SMALLWOOD: Does ; the hon. gentleman realize that he is now violating his oath. ~-·_f:!.RLE_: ______ That is not violating •• PREMIER SMALLWOOD: Rip.ht now he is violating his oath. ~- -~E_: ____ No, Mr. Premier, I am not. PREMIER SH.'\.LLHOOD: Ri[?ht no~~ at this moment. MR. EARLE: It took me twelve months ••• -·--- -- ---- PREMIER SMALL HOOD: ------ -------- He is violating his oath.that he took on the bible. MR. EARLE: No, Mr. Premier. MR. EARLE: I knew that would be thrown at me in an atte~t ••• L_REHIER S~l-\L_!.~ It is a violation of his oath. MR.

EARLE: No. --------· PREMIER SMALLWOOD: Yes. ---- ----- MR. EARLE: I have not said anything that has been said in Cabinet. Not one word. Anyhow it just took me twelve months to ~et there. It was discussed. I am not saying what was discussed. PREMIER SHALLioOOD: Even to say that it came up in Cabinet is a violation. To say that it did not come up in Cabinet is a violation. ~~-!ARL~:--- Well I wish everyone was as careful as I am • ...!'REMIE!.....§]~_!...!!.9_9Q: All right the bon. gentleman took an,oath on it. An oath on the bible, · an oath of secrecy. !!!:~E...:_ In any case, }~r. Premier . or !tr.

Speaker, this matter has cost the Prpvince of Newfoundland a very substantial amount of money and if the Premier . ·-,' .. "1"/o .

.· Febr uary 24th., 1970 'Tape no . 51 Page 7 . . gets after me much more, I will reveal somethinr. else that Cabinet does not kn~J abou t this matter • . !his is sow~thing I would hesitate and only at the very greatest frustration, will I raise t his 1!18tter. It would not be very pleasant in th is House . We vill leav e t hat alone, but ~hat I am saying only is that if this thin g had been attended to promptly and properly this Province ~ld be a lot better of. I feel ~· .. ,;, .

.· ... February 24, 1970 Tape 52 . Page 1 GC I feel that in this matter of tax-subsidi%atien or tax-exemption if you like to call it, that the policy of this Government which should have been adopted, should have been in the nature of outright grants,.,because when you make an outright grant, year by year. in such a.-. industry, you knov exactly ;.;here it cuts -coff and what; you sre committing us to. But, in the case of taxation exe~ptions, this can gr~ and grow like_a monster, and you are depriving the Province of revenL~ for almost indefinite tim~s. You do not know what it ~lill amount to and what the revenue might be,

whereas I if i_,.; in order to encourage an industry to come into a place--an outright basic grant for a :certain amount had been made, the Province cculd then know exactly what it was letting itself in for. Enough said, Mr. Speaker, on the matter of exemptions and tax subsidies and so on. I think that part of the problem of our Government in the past has been that, and this is almost difficult to criticize, .for this reason that they have had tremendous visions of grandeur.

Now, grandeur or visions for the future of Newfoundland are extremely desirable, because we have over the years h~cr.·a P~o·r.lnce cf:pcopl~ who ~re -not~~ ashamed to look the rest~of the world in the face. We have not had the pride in our own ability and so on. and this is one thing for which the Premier must be given great credit. He has given the Province and the people of this Province great confidence in themselves. I am afraid that confidence may backfire in other directions before very long, because the people are now becoming very, very aware of their strangth.

It is ~uilt up of fine feeling of ability and strength of our people which I am sure will be demonstrated before ~any months pass in another direction. But in building up these visions of grandeur, I do not think that the cost to our people has been properly assessed. Sure we are all terrificly proud of the Arts and Cultur~ Centre over there . - ~o go in it is a pleasur~. It is something that we needed badly. It is something ve all enjoy going in and seeing acts and plays and so on -but on such a scale to this Province.

That one possibly we could excuse, although it is over-elaborate and ~ver- expensive and probably cost twice what it should have cost, but Arts and Culture Centres which now consist of piles of steel rusty in various places -which we were told would cost us yirtually nothing, and ·which by I j j l I I i i . I 1 the time they are installed, if they ~ver are installed, will probably cost ~/) . .X ·.: rr I I

. . i ' .. . - -~ • . ... _~ ........ • . ---- ---·-- ---·--·- -- - - February _ 24, 1970 Tape 52 Page 2 GC upwards to $3 million dollars, is another matter • SOME HON. HEHBER: T'nere is one here, n1Jv, $103 million Grand Falls • MR. EARLE: Yes, certain amounts have been spent although these were supposed to have cost us very, very little indeed. I Tnere has been quite a lot of c~nt in the press recently about I Elizabeth Towers.

I :chink the inspiration for Elizabeth Towers was the ! fact that in some of ithe trips around the place members of Government may have seen high-rise apartment buildings going up in~other cities, so why i could not we have one? Well, iif we could afford it, yes, why not have one, I two, three, four or five? But_ there is so much need in Newfoundland, more than accomodations f~r wealthy people, that I can think of. To put the Province's ~oney into something of that sort is nothing short of scandalous. Visions of grandeur again.

Why announce the tremendous program of sports and recreation, which in the first year before if even got off the ground to raise people's hopes that we were going to do something for our young people? Why announce this sort of thing when we knew at the time we had no ·~ money to pay for it? We could not go into this thbg. \~ell, there may be a reason for it. I am not criticizing that.

Of course, under the headiug of sp-Jrts and recreation perhaps - although this did not come directly out of the pockets of the people; it will indirectly, but the great Liberal Leadership Convention, I think the sports event of the year, weuight call it that- is somethir.g that-- SOME HON, MEMBER: Cassius Clay was in it. HR. EARLE: something wh5ch was in itself, if nothing else, it pictures the people of o~r Province as astonied~ aimost degradation, ·I would call it.(I hesitate to · use that word) but it vas a sho~, a shew of e.ll shows, a show which will never be seen in Newfoundland again.

And it would indicate to people that somebody, somewhere, somehow, had- endless amounts of money to throw aw21, all for what for purpose - to prove sometning which has already heen accomplished. The conclusion was there before the place was ever opened. \o'hy did not we hold it? It was a great party - an awful lot of people will be talking about it for the rest of their lives, but it proves absolutely nothing. MR. CROSBIE: Some would lik~ to forget it. MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, other things which may possibly come under the . .. - __ .. .... - · ...... -- ·- ~ . . ~ r r

February 24, 1970 Tape 52 Page 3 cc heading of visions of grandeur, in my ~nd, such things as the purchase by this Gove1~ment of a minority ~lot of shares in the Churchill Falls · . Co-operation. Now, these shares, I thi~ at the moment, have cost us something like $8 milli