Manitoba Hansard — 17 June 1970 (Sitting 116, 29th Legislature, 2nd Session)

29-2-116

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2: 30 o'clock, Wednesday, June 17, 1970 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MRo SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 2937 MRo SPEAKER: At this point I should like to direct the attention of the honourable mem bers to the Gallery where we have 20 Grade 7 students of the Harold Edward School. These students are under the direction of Mrs. McKay. The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Lakeside.

And 49 Grade 6 students of the J. G. Van Belleghem School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Kingerski and Miss Wicks. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Riel. Forty members of the Royal Dun-allen Good Neighbours Club of Boissevain under the direction of Mrs. Halliman. This club is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. And in my Gallery there are 22 Grade 4 students of the Moose Lake Indian School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Toms.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honour able Member for The Pas. On behalf of all the members of the Legislative Assembly, we welcome you here this afternoon. Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Emerson. STATEMENT MR. GABRIEL GIRARD (Emerson): I would beg the leave of the members of the House to make a brief announcement if I'm granted.

I would like to on behalf of the people of Emerson extend an invitation to all members of the House to attend the forthcoming annual centennial -- it is annually in that it's going to be repeated every year; it's centennial in that it's held this year -- the barrel-launching derby that will be held at Emerson on Saturday, day after tomorrowo I'm not certain,. Mr. Speaker, as to the type of barrel it will be but I'm certain of the festivities that will begin in the morning at 8:00 o'clock with a free pancake breakfast on the streets and I'm assured of enjoyable facilities for the remainder of the day.

I, again, would like to extend an invitation to all the members of the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MRo HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Honourable Minister of Transportation. Would the Minister -- (Interjection) -- excuse me. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. Committee ..• The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the First Minister.

It's not intended to be an argumentative question, but I wonder whether he would be prepared now to correct a statement that was made yesterday on Page 2911 of Hansard. His statement - at the bottom of the Page, and if I may I'd read it to him and then he knows wh at I'm referring to; it's the fourth paragraph, it's the middle paragraph.

"I said merely that I know for a fact that last year, last summer some time, the Freshwater Fish Marketing Board called for tenders from the various fish processing firms and some of them did not see fit to even bid on any contract to process products for the Board." I wonder if he's in a position now to confirm that this was an error. MR, ED. SCHREYER (Premier)(Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I'm in a position to revise my answer somewhat, but certainly not so as to change the substance of it at all; and I welcome the opportunity to clarify the answer I gave yesterday as contained on Page 2911 of Hansard.

In reply to the Honourable Member for River Heights I said that the fish processing plants had an opportunity to bid on tenders called by the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corpora tion. I'm advised that it was not a tender situation, that the corporation did not call tenders but in fact the procedure was as follows: The corporation adopted the custom rates that had been charged under the Fish Services Limited and this was the practice of previous years.

The corporation invited the fish processing plants to indicate whether they would be prepared to process product for the corporation at custom rates as had been charged by Fish Services Limited. Apparently some plants did see fit to offer to process product at these custom

2938 June17, 1970 (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) ...•• rates, others did not, and therefore they weren't doing any work for the corporation. I believe this is a revision which should have been made, which I've made, but does not change the substance of my response very much at all. MR. SPIVAK: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I have the tender in front of me and may I say to the Honourable First Minister, is he aware that there's nothing in this tender that deals with processing? Nothing that in this tender and the tender he's referring to that deals with processing. Packaging of fish, but not processing. MR.

SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the offer that was extended by the corporation last sum mer, and I stand to be corrected by the Minister of Mines and Resources, was as follows: That the corporation offered the processing plants as they existed last summer, the opportunity of either processing product for the corporation at custom rates as had been charged by Fish Services Limited or purchasing product from the corporation at a given price which they could resell as they saw fit. There was an option open to the fish companies. Some of them saw fit to process product for the corporation, others did not.

I believe that is the ess ence of the fact of the matter. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, there's a difference of opinion. I'm not intending to argue this ..• MR. SPEAKER: Has the honourable member a question? MR. SPIVAK: Yes, I have a question. I wonder, in view of the fact that there is a difference of opinion and in view of the fact that the First Minister has correcited his statement from yesterday, whether it wouldn't be advisable and would he not consider the calling of the Standing Committee on Economic Development as one committee . . • MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member is asking for an expression of opinion.

MR. SPIVAK: No, I'm asking whether he would call the Standing Committee on Economic Development so that there would be an opportunity for a proper review of the facts involved in the situation to be presented so that the members on this side and members on the other side would be able to judge what is taking place. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, in partial response to the honourable member, I can advise him,pursuant to a question that was asked of me yesterday as to whether or not a meeting had been requested by certain fish processing plant owners , I can advise the honour able member who asked that question that such a meeting has been arranged for tomorrow, will take place tomorrow, and I'll be better able to answer the honourable member's question after I've had that meeting. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for The Pas, MR. RON McBRYDE (The Pas): Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I'd like to address a question to the Minister of Mines and Resources, or two questions actually. First 1 of all, how serious is the flooding in the Lake St. Martin area of Manitoba; and secondly, will residents of the Fairford and Lake St. Martin Reserves who are affected be receiving compen sation because of this flooding? HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources)(Inkster): Mr. Speaker, the question is a very subjective one.

I think that for the people concerned any flood ing would be serious and the fact is that this is a flooding situation which has been caused by the regulation commitments being kept on Lake Manitoba. It's theoretically not a flooding situation which wouldn't have taken place without the regulation, that is the lake is now proceeding as if unregulated, but it was serious enough that we had to inform the residents that it would take place. My understanding is that they were given notice that this would occur.

It's a situation that has repeated itself over the years and the government is considering the question of com pensation on similar grounds as was provided in the past. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. JACOB M. FROESE (Rhimland): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the First Minister in connection with the issue that was raised by the Member for River Heights. How often are these tenders called for and will the fish processing plants that are not in opera tion, will they have an opportunity to compete in future tenders that may be called. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I can only take that question as notice, but while I'm on my feet, may I take this opportunity to correct a misimpression that appears to be lodged with the honourable member. The practice is not one of the corporation calling for tenders. What the corporation did last summer, and I believe it's a continuing practice, is to have the stand ing offer to the fish processing companies that there is a certain custom rate for processing

June 17, 1970 2939 (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) • • . . . fish for the corporation, and if companies wish to do the work at that rate they can get the product to do so. The custom rate that the corporation established was derived from the custom rate which was charged in previous years by Fish Services Limited which was a private company that started out as a kind of wholesaler for all of the fish companies - was owned by all of the fish companies together. Subsequently the form of ownership was changed and came under private ownership hands, not owned by the collection of all the different fish processing companies.

So that's how the custom rate was derived and it seemed to be a fair enough offer. I hasten to add "it seemed" to be a fair offer, I'm not in a position to say in a definite way whether it was or not. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder -- Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. I wonder whether he can inform the House whether he's had an opportunity to discuss the matters rele vant to the purchasing or the utilization of the fish processing operations, who are now not in business, or are going out of business, with the former Director Mr.

Hayes during the period of time he was Director for Manitoba or during the immediate period after he was let out of his position by the government? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, of course the honourable member knows that there are certain matters of detail in respect to this problem that I'm not personally aware of, although I'm sure that the Minister of Mines and Resources may be in a position to answer even at this time or he may wish to take it as notice. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Hayes has had nothing to do with any of the questions of pur chasing assets of fish processing companies. Mr.

Hayes was a somewhat complicated, as was indicated yesterday, appointee to the Freshwater Fish Marketing Board. As such he has nothing to do with the government policy with regard to redundancy or purchasing of assets. MR. SPIVAK: A supplementary question •.. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. GREEN: I believe Mr. Hayes has assets, and I'm not certain of this, that might be included in that category. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whethe r the First Minister can indicate whether Mr.

Hayes had informed him - oh excuse me, the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources - had informed him or any other member of the government that he objected within the confines of the Fish Marketing Board to their proceeding on a fish processing plant after representations had been made before the Standing or before the Committee of the Legislature in the last ses sion, by Mr. Harvey and other representatives on behalf of the Board •.. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. SPIVAK: No, Mr. Speaker, my question is valid. My question, very simply.

Did Mr, Hayes make any representation to you that the Fish Marketing Board had given wrong information to the Committee of the Legislature when they indicated that they were not intending to go into the fish processing business but were really intending to use the existing fish process ing plant? Did he say to you that he had raised objection within the board because of the fact of this misrepresentation being made in the Committee of the Legislature? MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, I can't recall all of the representations I received from Mr.

Hayes but I can tell you that if I received that one I would have ignored it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Speaker, a further supplementar y question to the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. Surely the Minister must recognize that .. . MR. SPEAKER: Has the honourable member a question? MR. ENNS: Yes, it is a question.

I'm asking the Minister whether or not he doesn't accept this as a valid position and question that I want to place to him, that the lone appointee that the Manitoba province as such has on a corporation is one that the Minister would want to consult with. on all and everything that involves the fishing industry, the processing industry and the ... MR. SPEAKER: I believe the honourable member is aware that he is asking the Honour- able Minister for an expression of opinion, Orders of the Day. Committee of the Whole House. MR. ENNS: Excuse me, Mr. Speaker ... MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR.

ENNS: Yes, I had another question, Mr. Speaker, directed to the Minister of Tour ism and Recreation, I'm wondering whether or not the Minister and his department is

2940 June 17, 1970 (MR. ENNS cont'd) . . . • • reconsidering the 300 percent increase in the ·permit fees. I'm speaking particularly about the unserviced lots in our provincial parks. I know that he's getting a lot of representation about it. Has the department considered any reduction to a more rea sonable level, something perhaps even approaching the six percent guidelines that the fight against inflation suggests to us? HON. PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Tourism & Recreation)(Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, it would appear to me that the question that was asked by the Honourable Member for Lakeside, that he must have been in conversation with some of his friends. MR . ENNS: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I ask again, the Minister doesn't have to answer, but it's my right to ask questions. Does the Minister not concern himself with the 300 percent increase in the unserviced lots? MR. SPEAKER: I believe the honourable member has asked a question of a very similar -nature to one put by him to another Minister just a moment ago. Orders of the Day. The Hon ourable Member for Souris- Killarney. MR.

EARL McKELLAR (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Health. When will the Legislative committee's report on dental mechanics be tabled? HON. RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Health and Social Development)(Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I believe we have a proposed bill for this House on this subject. MR, McKELLAR: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Will that be brought in this session? MR. TOUPIN: Yes, quite hopefully. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. SCHREYER: ... order to clarify, again to try and reduce confusion in a particu lar matter.

The honourable member's question asked about the tabling of a report. The report was tabled. The bill which he asks about has already been given first reading, so t.'lat should answer his question in a very specific way. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR, J, DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur):, Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege, I would like to correct a stat ement in Hansard on Page 2914, where I was directing a question to the Minister of Agriculture in regard to "nurse crops" andl'm reported in Hansard as referring to "earth crops". l don't know what an "earth crop" is and I'd like that correction made.

Mr. Speaker, while I'm on my feet I want to direct a question to the Minister of Agricul ture. The question that I asked him yesterday was in regard to nurse crops being taken off, or they must be taken off by July 15th, and he informed me - my question yesterday - that that question had already been answered so I checked the answer that he had given the day before, and his answer, Mr. Speaker, from the Federal Governm ent .•. MR. SPEAKER: Has the honourable member a question to put today? MR. WATT: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm not expressing opinion, and again, I'm trying to pres ent a reasonable

preamble to the question that I surely must have. MR. SPEAKER: I believe the honourable member is well aware of the manner in which questions ought to be put. MR. WATT: Mr. Speaker, if l may just quote again from Hansard then. The answer is that "From the Federal Government there are problems in pocket areas in the prairie prov inces." My question to the Minister: does he consider the Province of Manitoba is a pocket area in the provincial or the three prairie provinces in regard to our Operation LIIT problems? HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agricul ture)(Lac du Bonnet): First of all, Mr.

Speaker, I have to agree that there are many areas within the prairies whereir. we may have similar circumstances to that which we have in certain parts of Manitoba, so it's very hard to persuade government authority that they ought to pay attention specifically to one part of one province. The point I want to clarify though is that the member is wrong in assuming that there is a policy of allowing nurse crops with regard to the LIFT policy. The understanding that I have is that they are to be called "cover crops" and not "nurse crops" and that they should not be harvest ed. MR. WATT: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister then. Does the Minister not agree that the problem insofar as nurse or cover crops does apply in this late season to the whole Province of Manitoba?

June 17, 1970 2941 MR, SPEAKER: Order. I believe the honourable member is aware that he is asking for an expression of opinion, which is out of order before Orders of the Day. The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. AL MACKLING Q. C. (Attorney-General)(St. James): Mr. Speaker, I wish to· table an Order for Return No. 31 on the motion of the Honourable Member from La Verendrye. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H.

JORGENSON (Morris): Now that we've dealt with all the inconsequen tial questions, I'd like to direct a very important question to the Minister of Health and·Social Services and ask him if he will be sure to have available here tomorrow adequate medical treatment services such as liniment, bandages and aspirins for the participants in that base ball spectacular, the Walking Wounded who'll be participating in that baseball spectacular tonight. MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to answer that question by saying first of all, I'd like to advise the honourable member that the name of this department is now the Department of Health and Social Development. I'm glad to tell you that my Deputy Minister is in the gallery now, Dr. Morison, and he can be advised at this moment that he should have all the facilities tomorrow to take care of the honourable members who happen to hurt themselves for social development. Unfortunately I won't be able to assist myself, because I don't feel too well. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Honourable Minister of Transportation. Mr. Speaker, can the Minister indicate to us that the dust control program that's upon us every year at this time is in full swing through the gravel roads of southern Manitoba particularly? HON. JOSEPH P, BOROWSKI (Minister of Transportation)(Thompson): Mr. Speaker, the dust control program is not in full swing. It's been raining all spring and it wasn't necessary to put it into effect. MR, ENNS: Mr. Speaker, let me be serious then. It certainly wasn't raining in all parts of Manitoba.

Is the dust control being diminished or held back at the moment? MR, BOROWSKI: We have improved it over the previous administration.'s program. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance.

I wonder whether he could indicate to this House whether on assumption of his office as Minister of Finance he was not informed by his officials of an approximate amount of money that would have to be both voted on and allocated for compensation to the fish processors who would be declared redundant - compensation to the fish processing plants who would become redundant as a result of the operation of the Fish Marketing Board? HON, SAUL CHERNIACK, Q. C. (Minister of Finance)(st. John's): Mr.

Speaker, I believe that it would be really improper for me to report to the Legislature about what was or was not information given to me by my department officials. I think it would just be wrong to do so. I would actually like to answer that question.

No, I don't mean that; I wouldn't like to because I think it's improper to do so, because what he is trying to do in some way is to expose the discussions and information that take place as between Minister and department and I think that he himself must recognize that this is not only improper from the standpoint of parliamentary procedure, but not right in relation to the dealings that one has with one's own deputy. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I'll frame the question another way so that I won't offend my honourable friend.

I wonder if he could indicate whether mention had been made to him that the previous government had in fact determined for allocation an amount of money that would have to be paid by way of compensation to the fish processing plants who were goingto become redundant by the fish marketing plant. I wonder whether that had been indicated to him? MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, I recall that when we brought in our supplementary estimates and our capital supply, the Honourable Member for Lakeside made some contribution to debate and I believe that during discussions, whether they were in committee or otherwise, he gave certain bits of information which were of great interest to us. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR, SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I think it would be appropriate for me to say at this time, to express the hope that the Honourable Member for River Heights is not expecting us to feel any responsibility for any course of action that was followed by the previous administra tion, except perhaps those that have to do with contracts entered into, that's a different matter; but as to what course of action followed by the previous administration in terms of allocation of

2942 June 17, 1970 (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) ••••• moneys or the potential allocation of moneys is something which we do not take responsibility for nor do we take responsibility for knowing about it. MR. SPIVAK: • • • for the First Minister. I would expect the First Minister and the members of the government to act decently -- (Interjection) -- Yes. I would expect them to act decently in this matter. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I'm wondering if it would be within the rules to express the hope that the honourable member' e erratic behaviour today has something to do with the erratic colour of his necktie and will not persist. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAfK (Riel): Mr.

Speaker, it's on the same topic that's under discussion here, but I want to direct a question to the First Minister respecting the Act that was passed setting up the Fish Marketing Board by the Federal Government a little better than a year ago which he was involved with as a Member of Parliament ••• MR, SPEAKER: Will the member state his question? MR. CRAIK: The question is whether or not in his position in evolving this and now assuming responsibility here, whether the contravening of the federal legislation by the Manitoba Government or its appearance to do so is not of concern to him?

MR, SPEAKER: I believe the honourable member is aware that this is an argumentative question which he has put. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, if I may be allowed, I'd like to disabuse the honourable member of one misapprehension. If he is suggesting in any way that the course of action we are taking with respect to the redundancy question is a contravention of the federal legislation, I reject it completely, absolutely, because it is not a contravention of the federal legislation. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, a subsequent question, then.

Will we have an opportunity to actually explore the clauses of the federal legislation which we're referring to here? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, I was going to address a question to the Honourable Attorn ey-General. Since he's not in his seat at the moment I'm at a loss who is next, so I'll direct m y question to the Minister of Finance. Has the Horse Racing Commission Report been tab led, and if not, when can we expect it? MR. CHERNIACK: I'm sure that the last report that was tabled has already been tabled. Which report are you referring to, as of what date? MR.

FROE SE: The Horse Racing Commission Report. The main one. MR, CHERNIACK: I'm informed that it has. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. HON. PHILIP PETURSSON (Minister of Cultural Affairs)(Wellington): Mr. Speaker, I have answers here to two or three questions that I had taken as notice and felt that I might give the replies at this time. Some of these questions answer themselves by time and circumstances and the progress of events but I am under obligation to bring in a reply. The Honourable Member for st.

Vital raised the question about the switching of dates for the Musical Ride and the reply is simply that there have been no dates changed except two during which the Muswal Ride was to have appeared in Dauphin. The Musical Ride will appear in Dauphin on July 16th at which time there will be two performances. There have been no other changes in dates or program. The reason for the change on the 16th of July was that on the day before, on the 15th, the members of the Musical Ride, the R. C. M.

P., are to be here in Winnipeg and serve as a mounted escort to Her Majesty the Queen when she leaves the train at the CNR depot and comes along Broadway to the Legislative Building. The changes that were made on these two dates have met with the complete satisfaction of all concerned, including Manisphere and the people in Dauphin. There was another question raised by the Honourable Member for Rupertsland who asked whether the 160, OOO issues of the so-called comic books depicting Manitoba history in that particular form, whether they would be recalled.

This has been loolr.ed at and it has been found quite impracticable to recall the 160, OOO issues of that book and no action in that direction is therefore being taken. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie sought information about Centennial pins, the blue buffalo pins that many of us are wearing. I can inform him that these pins are obtain able through the local Centennial Committees in the various districts throughout the province and that 300, OOO of these pins are already in circulation.

He wished, in addition to this, to know where these pins were manufactured; they are being manufactured in Toronto, Ontario.

June 17, 1970 2943 (MR. PETURSSON cont'd) . The same Honourable Member from Portage la Prairie made an inquiry about the deficit on the Centennial Centre Corporation and the reply to that is that - he wishes to know how it was being paid and by whom - the reply is that the deficit on the Centennial Centre Corporation is paid by way of drawing on the reserves that have been built up by voluntary contributions over the past several months and couple of years, and in addition to that if any additional amount is required, it is being paid by contributions from the taxpayers themselves. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR, JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to thank the honourable Minister for his comments, and with regard to the historical booklets, there has been press reports that they would probably be reprinted. Is that the intention of the department? MR. PETURSSON: Mr. Speaker, I've heard that suggestion made. I would have to take that as notice and bring in a reply at a later date. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if I might ask the First Minister if I could get, or the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, if they could tell me whether an agreement was entered into with the Federal Government pursuant to what I would like to read here, and it refers to the fish marketing, which says, and this is the Federal Act I referred to: "With the approval of the Governor-in-Council, the Minister may on behalf of the Government of Canada enter into an agreement with the government of any province to which this

section applies, providing for the undertaking by the province of arrangements for the payment to the owner of any plant or equipment used in storing, processing or otherwise preparing fish for market, of compensation for any such plant or equipment that will or may be rendered redundant by reason of any operations authorized to be carried out by the corporation under this Part. " MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I don't khow whether pursuant to the

section there was an agreement entered into, but I am aware of an agreement and it refers to dealing with compell-l sation for firms that have been declared redundant. I want to make it plain to iny honourable friend that the redundancy provision in the Manitoba Act is completely discretionary and that once it ls exercised, the redundancy compensation that was contemplated, was payment of the asset value of the firm concerned. That has already been offered to the firms concerned. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, then would the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources tell us on what basis this asset value is established? What is his definition of "redundancy" and "asset value"? MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, whenever there is a buyer and a purchaser, in my experience, there is an argument as to what the value is and the buyer makes an offer, the purchaser can accept it or refuse it.

In this case the vendor, that is the person whose assets that we have been willing to discuss.is under no obligation to sell those assets to the govern ment so he has an option of dealing at the government's terms, which are based on us trying to assess their asset value, but he can't be hurt by the government because if the government doesn't meet his price, he can go to whomsoever will give him a better price. MR. CRAIK: Might I ask, Mr.

Speaker, of the First Minister then or of the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, whether a plant or equipment contained is made redundant in a transaction such as this where the government takes over a complete industry, whether in fact that plant would have any resale value or therefore be of any asset? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, yes it would have assets. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, may I further ask then. Is it fair to base any value . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable member is asking an expression of opinion and he's well aware of that. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, I think in light of the fairly long statement by the Minister that I may ask for a further definition. If there is no sale, or no available sale or any sale ••• MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I'm jus t wondering to what extent the honourable member should pursue this line of hypothetical questions? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I'll place it very briefly. Would the Minister or First Minis ter agrel:) that if there is no sale then there is no resale value? MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I said yesterday and I say again, that until such time as a processing facility is built and in place, to me this question remains in abeyance and hypothetical. I say again for the benefit of my honourable friend that a product was offered for processing at a per unit price, at a custom rate which had been -- (Interjection) -- Well, I

2944 June 17, 1970 (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) • . . • . know just about as much about this as my honourable friend. MR. SPIVAK: I have a tender right here. You show me where it says "processing". MR. CHERNIACK: Why don't you stand up, MR. SCHREYER: I've had information given to me, the source of which I rely on just a little bit more than my honourable friend, Mr.

Speaker, so I repeat that when I was given the information that companies did have the opportunity to do custom processing at a per unit rate which had been the rate in force when Fish Services Limited was in operation, I find it difficult to understand how anyone can advance the argument about redundancy. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: I'd like to make a speech, but I'm not.

I'm going to ask the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources whether he wrote this letter, which I would like to quote - dated February 13th: "I reviewed our Deputy Minister's letter to you of December 18, 1969 and your reply of December 29, 1969. The Province of Manitoba does not take the posi tion that the redundancy provision . • . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. _ MR. SPIVAK: I want to ask whether he wrote this letter or not. Because, Mr. Speaker, this letter is in contradiction to the information that he's given in this Legislature. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, that isn't so. MR. SPIVAK: It is so. MR.

GREEN: I advised the honourable member that I wrote the processors, I believe that he is reading from a letter that I wTote. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR" SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether I can address a question to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, and say to him that rather than get involved . MR" SPEAKER: Has the honourable member a question? MR. SPIVAK: Yes, my question ••• MR, SPEAKER: Would the honourable member please put his question. MR. SPIVAK: • • . would the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources not take the more decent approach and - Mr. Speaker ... . declare .. .

MR, SPEAKER: The member is well aware that that question is out of order. MR. SPIVAK: Will he not reconsider his position and declare those fish processing firms who are redundant and allow the courts, and not himself, to interpret what he thinks the law should be; let the courts interpret what the law actually is, because that is not the law as he's declared it. MR. SPEAKER: Order. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I feel I must protest in a most emphatic way the kind of questioning that has taken place in the past twenty minutes or so relative to the matter of fish marketing and processing.

The questions asked, which Hansard will show tomorrow I'm satisfied, are hypothetical, argumentative, ask for an expression of legal opinion, all of the kinds of questions that are so clearly known under the rules of parliamentary procedure to be unacceptable. MR, WALTER WEIR (Leader of the Opposition)(Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, only if they come from this side of the House. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. SCHREYER: No. Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege.

I wish that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition would not interject himself into a point of order debate when he just entered the Chamber and knows little of what's been going on. MR. WEIR: Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order: I've known the First Minister to do that on more than on occasion. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day; Committee of the Whole House. The Honourable House Leadero MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I believe that contrary to what may appear that the House is in general agreement that we now leave from this Chamber to go to Law Amendments Committee to consider Bill No. 82; that we return later this afternoon, and I might say it should be no later than 5:00 o'clock. If it's not completed by that time, we have to be back to deal with the Fishermen's Compensation Bill, but as soon as the Law Amendments has heard Mr. Swaine then we would come back and deal with the other matters. Is the Souris Bill to be considered by Law Amendments? -- Bill 48 as well, So without further formality, Mr.

June 17, 1970 2945 (MR. GREEN cont'd) . . . . . Speaker, I would assume that you could leave the Chair to return when advised that the committee has finished meeting or no later than 5: 00 o'clock in any event. MR. SPEAKER: I'm now leaving the Chair to return when advised of the termination of the Committee's meeting. * * * * * * * MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I take it that there is leave given to the Chairman of Law Amendments Committee to make his report. (Agreed) REPORTS BY ST ANDING COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS (Logan): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the report of the Sixth meeting of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments. MR. CLERK: Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments beg leave to present the following as their Sixth report. Your committee has considered Bill No. 82,

an Act to amend The Crop Insurance Act, and has agreed to report the same without amendment. All of which is respectfully submitted. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Gimli, that the report of the Committee be received. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR, GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Cultural Affairs, that Mr, Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider the following bills: No. 128, No. 82, No. 38.

MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole with the Honourable Member for Elmwood in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE MR. CHAIRMAN: (Bill 128 was read

section by

section and passed.) The Honourable House· Leader. MR, GREEN: Mr. Chairman, there are two other bills that the Clerk is now going to get, so it might be a few minutes. The Clerk is going to get two other bills. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Bill 82 - Sections 1 to 30 were read

section by

section and passed.)

Section 31 -- The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to detain the committee from passing the proposed bill and the several sections that we're dealing with, but I would just like to go on record and say that the rates that are being established under the Regulations in my opinion are extremel y low, and I feel that the farmers in Manitoba, those that are presently buying crop insurance, certainly will find the program to be very beneficial in that respect because the costs are much lower than what the farmers in my area at least have been paying for hail insurance. MR.

SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, I know that the honourable member has this.point of view and I think it's appropriate to say that at the time of the actual determining of the rates the views expressed by the member will be taken into account, and I am sure that between now and the actual promulgation of the regulations and the passing of them by formal instrument that we will have further investigation made of the feasibility and desirability of some adjust ment in the rates along the lines suggested by the honourable member.

It's not to be taken as a commitment that this will in fact be done, but certainly it will be seriously considered in the light of what has been said by the honourable member. MR. CHAIRMAN: (The remainder of Bill No. 82 was read

section by

section and passed.) Bill be reported? The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. WATT: Mr. Speaker, before we vote on the bill being reported, I want to move an amendment to the bill. I discussed this briefly with the Minister of Finance and I mentioned it in committee. I believe that we are going into an insurance program in competition on a voluntary basis with the private insurance comp anies in the province - and I didn't have much

2946 June 17, 1970 (MR, WATT cont'd) .. ..•. time to speak on it, the bell was ringing in committee - but I feel that the rates on an annual basis should be registered with the Superintendent of Insurance in the Province of Manitoba as required by the line companies or the private companies in the province. So I want to move, Mr. Chairman, seconded by the Member for Riel, that a

section be inserted into the bill requiring the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation to file rates with the Superintendent of Insurance. This motion was thrown together fairly quickly and I'm not sure that it's properly worded, but I think you'll understand the intent of it. MR . CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, it may be because I was referred to, I don't want any suggestion -- I don't think that the honourable member wanted to suggest that I'd agreed that an amendment should be brought in. What we were discussing on our walk back from the Law Amendments Committee was the information I received from Mr.

Swaine, that he does not receive the kind of information that ls requested in connection with crop insurance, hospital insurance, medical insurance, and Mr. Swaine didn't see the need for it or the point ot it. But that doesn't matter. I also discussed with the honourable member that I didn't see for my self that there would be any objection to it. I said that this kind of information would of course be available at the office of the crop insurance and all their agents.

I also said that for all I thought it wouldn't matter in how many ways this information was registered, and as we walked in through the door to this Chamber I said that it seems to me we could even post it on the door of the Chamber, it's public information. I don't know whether the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture can see any objection to it.

I don't suppose that the Superintendent of Insurance would object to it, and I report for him, I can't speak now because I haven't consulted with him specifically as to whether he has any objection or not, but frankly I don't have any objection but it may be that there would be some difficulty that somebody would want to explore. MR, WATT: Well, Mr. Speaker, if I inferred actually that the Minister of Finance had agreed with my proposal, I'm sorry about that. The thought that I was inferring was that I had discussed it, I tried to discuss it in committee. Reference was made in committee, Mr.

Speaker, fo the fact that it is not required that the Crop Insurance Corporation file insofar as crop insurance is concerned, but we're talking about hail insurance here now.

Insofar as crop insurance is concerned there is only one corporation in the Province of Manitoba, there is no competition, but I feel that in this case that in all fairness to the private companies who are operating that they should have a right to have a look, through the Superintendent of Insurance, at the rates that the province are establishing in order that they may fairly compete with the rates that are being established by the province. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, the suggested amendment by the honourable member I don't think poses any problem at all, because what he proposes be filed with the office of the Superintendent of Insurance ls a matter that would be on public record in any case by virtue of it being a rate set by regulation, Order-in-Council which is on file, so we accept the amend ment. It may serve a useful purpose in terms of accessibility. In that sense I think it could be useful. Therefore, I would say that we accept it and wonder if it can't be expedited. Does the honourable member have an amendment to move? MR. CHERNIACK: He's moved it. MR.

SCHREYER: He's actually moved it. Mr. Chairman, that strikes me then that there will have to be a formal motion at the third reading stage. Is that correct? MR. GREEN: I think that there'll have to be an amendment moved right now and inserted into the blll, and it will have to be properly drawn so that if the bill comes up for third reading immediately afterwards, which is what we hoped it would, the bill would then be in a form which could be passed on third reading. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, rather than whisper into the ears of my Leader and the House Leader, I want to point out that it was desired, I think by all members, that this bill receive Royal Assent today, and my recollection of the rules - and I may be wrong - is that when there's an amendment in committee I think it has to stand over for a day. Oh yes, the Clerk ls nodding his head, which means I think that we'd have to have unaminous consent to deal with it today. I would like to think that if we don't get unanimous consent that we should know about it in advance so that we will not be thwarted.

MR, USKIW: I don't know whether this would be acceptable to my honourable friends opposite, but I would undertake, rather than delay the bill now, I would undertake at the next session, which will be hopeful ly long before May, to bring in an amendment to suit my

June 17, 1970 2947 (MR._ USKIW cont'd) .•••. honourable friend, and if my honourable friend has any question about who will do it, perhaps he'll have an opportunity, I don't know; MR. WATT: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think I could agree with this, but I think the suggestion that with unanimous approval of the committee right now that it could be inserted into the bill now. However, I point out that I'm not a lawyer and I wrote that amendment out very quickly. I think that I've missed out a point there, that it should be consistent with the requirements of other insurance companies, of the private insurance companies.

It's a detail that -- I men tion this because lawyers have twisted me up so often on details that I • • . MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Chairman, what the honourable member says is that the filing of the time, the time for filing would be consistent with the requirements of the other companies. They must file by a certain date and that's all he's referring to. MR. WEIR: Well, Mr. Chairman, what we've done in the past under circumstances like this is to have had the Legislative Counsel sitting in the Chamber so that these things could be dealt with.

Unfortun ately he's not here, but I think it would probably only take a minute or two to get him if he's still in the building and have it done. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, on the point of order, I suggest that the Chair read the amendment as has been moved, and if it is obviously simple and clear to honourable mem bers, I don't think we need the services of a lawyer particularly. We can decide that after having heard the amendment read again. MR. CHAIRMAN: Moved by the Honourable Member for Arthur that a

section be inserted in the bill requiring the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation to file rates with the Superintend ent of Insuran ce. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, I don't think the wording of the amendment is proper to go into the bill, but I agree if the government is going to accept the undertaking on that, that's satisfactory to me; and I'm also agreeable to give leave to process the bill and have third reading passed. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: I think, Mr.

Chairman, that our proposal is the most reasonable and I suggest that I would undertake to follow this policy in the course of the next session, if it's suitable to my honourable friends opposite. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition. MR. WEIR: Mr. Chairman, just to prove cooperation on our side, we're prepared to accept that suggestion. Mind you, we think it would have been equally easy within five minutes to have accomplished the whole thing in the matter. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. Agreed to proceed without the amendment? (Agreed) MR. GREEN: I move the committee rise. MR.

CHAIRMAN: That completes the business of the committee. Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee has considered Bills Nos. 128 and 82 and agreed to report the same without amendment. IN SESSION MR. RUS SELL DOERN (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker,_! move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Kildonan, that the report of the committee be received. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. EILLS NOS. 128 and 82 were each read a third time and passed. MR, GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, we're momentarily expecting the reports and His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, so if members will just bear with us for awhile. ROYAL ASSENT DEPUTY SERGEANT-AT-ARMS: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. MR. SPEAKER: May it please Your Honour: The Legislative Assembly, at its present Session, passed several bills which, in the name of the Assembly, I present to Your Honour and to which bills I respectfully request Your Honour's assent. MR. CLERK: No. 5 -

An Act to amend The Winnipeg Charter, 1956, and to validate B:Y"'"law No. 19680 of The City of Winnipeg.

2948 June 17, 1970 (MR. CLERK cont'd) . No. 6 -

An Act to amend The Brandon Charter (2). No. 12 -

An Act to amend the St. James-Asslniboia Charter. No. 13 -

An Act respecting the 1970 Centennial and The City of Transcona. No. 38 -

An Act to amend The Water Control and Conservation Branch Act. No. 49 - The Postponement of El ections In Metropolitan Winnipeg Act. No. 62 -

An Act to.amend The Brandon Charter (2). No. 82 -

An Act to amend The Crop Insurance Act. No.128 - The Fishermen's Assistance and Polluters' Liability Act. In Her Majesty's name, His Honour The Lieutenant-Governor doth assent to these bills. MR . SPEAKER: We, Her Majesty's dutiful and faithful subjects, the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba In session assembled, approach Your Honour with sentiments of unfeigned devotion and loyalty to Her Majesty's person and Government and beg for Your Honour the acceptance of this Bill: MR. CLERK: No. 118 -

An Act for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of the Province for the fiscal year ending the 3lst day of March, 1971. His Honour, the Lieutenant-Gov ernor doth thank Her Majesty's dutiful and loyal subjects, accepts their benevolence and assents to this bill in Her Majesty's name. MR, SPEAKER: It is now 5: 30, The House is adjourned and will stand adjourned until 2: 30 tomorrow afternoon.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-2-116
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 2nd hansardpdf 116.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3965b6ba156e3b55f72f23a1c2a48825be936685

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