Manitoba Hansard — 8 September 1969 (Sitting 23, 29th Legislature, 1st Session)

29-1-23

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Monday, September 8, 1969 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Notices of Motion; INTRODUCTION OF BILLS 523 HONOURABLE SAUL CHERNIACK, Q.C. (Minister of Finance)(St. John'

s) introduced Bill No. 31,

An Act to amend The Mineral Taxation Act; and Bill No. 32,

An Act to amend The Mining Royalty and Tax Act. HON. HOWARD R. PAWLEY (lV':inister of Government Services) (Selkirk) introduced Bill No. 34,

An Act to amend The Civil Service Act, stating second reading would be Wednesday next. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS (Logan) introduced Bill No. 29,

An Act to amend The St. James Assiniboia Charter and to alter the boundaries of the City and of The Rural Municipality of Rosser. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: At this point, I wish to direct the attention of the honourable members to my gallery, where we have with us this afternoon the Select Committee of the Ontario Legislative Assembly on Corporation Law, under the Chairmanship of Mr. Gordon.Carten, MPP. On behalf of the members of this Assembly may I extend our welcome to you. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition. MR.

WALTER WEIR (Leader of the Opposition)(Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if ..... Minister of Health if there have been any meetings between he or his department and the Dental Association to consider the advisability or otherwise of a dental option voluntary along with the Medicare Plan in Manitoba? HON. SIDNEY GREEN (Minister of Health and Social Services)(Inkster): ... Dental Association myself on that point and I'm unaware that any people in our department have met with them on that question. MR. WEIR: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary, if I may. Does the Minister plan meetings with them? MR.

GREEN: I'm sorry, I lost the last words of your question. MR. WEIR: Does the Minister plan meetings with the Dental Association? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, there are no meetings planned with them at the present time. As to whether we will, I'll consider that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable the Minister of Transport. Since he has taken office has he signed a road contract on a cost-plus basis? HON. JOSEPH P.

BOROWSKI (Minister of Transportation)(Thompson): I'm not sure if that's the proper terminology ..... MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I should clarify. Not on a firm price but on a price plus a fixed percentage of profit. Could the Minister advise the House? MR. BOROWSKI: Mr. Speaker, there is a system in the department .... hourly. Is this what you're referring to ? Bid hourly?-- (Interjection) -- Well, I know of no such-- but I'll look into it. I know of no such deal, or such a bid. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, then the Minister would inform the House after he has informed himself? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): .... and can he advise the House whether he will be tabling copies of the Boundaries Commission Report? HON. SAUL A. MILLER (Minister of Youth and Education)(Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, was informed early this morning that the Boundaries Commission is ready and has prepared its provisional plan for the rest of Manitoba. I'm further informed that they have mailed out copies to all members of the Legislature. I have not yet received my copy. I assume it must

524 September 8, 1969 (MR. MILLER cont•d.) ..... be in the mail, in which case we should all receive it tomorrow. It's not a report that's tabled in the House but I'm told it was supposed to be made available to all those concerned, and of course all MLAs are in that category. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I want to ....

I had contacted the Longshoremen•s Union in British Columbia with respect to the possibility of strike action interfering with Canadian Wheat Board grain delivery to the Vancouver ports, and I'm advised that the Trade Union officers are taking our position very seriously and are going to recommend to their membership that they allow any grain traffic to go through. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. PETER FOX (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, I wish to speak, on a point of privilege, to the House.

As you notice, we have a new audio technician today - our regular one is ill - and I would ask the members to be a little bit considera-te and give the gentleman a moment so that their mike will be on. Otherwise we•ll have difficulty hearing each other. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: ·The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): ..... to the Honourable Minister of Tourism.

Can the Minister of Tourism and Recreation advise whether the Interlake Advisory Board were consulted in the decision to proceed with the recreation development of Hecla and, if they have, was their decision favourable with Hecla tourist development? HON. PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Tourism & Recreation)(Dauphin): Well, Mr. Speaker, I must admit I'm not sure whether it was a fact that advice was sought of these people. I'm not aware of it. Perhaps it was prior to my taking office, but I will check into that for your information. MR.

PATRICK: I wish. to thank the Honourable Minister but I would like the Honourable Minister to check into and advise the House if the regional boards were in favour of this development. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. ARTHUR MOUG (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister of Labour, the federal Minister, made an announcement to do with the minimum wage, could we expect an announcement in the House from the Minister? HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour)(Transcona): In reply to my honourable friend, Mr.

Speaker, of course he realizes that any statement made by the federal Minister of Labour is the statement of that honourable gentleman and not myself. May I also remind my honourable friend, Mr. Speaker, that I have announced to the House that the Minimum Wage Board of Manitoba is presently considering the minimum wage rate in the Province of Manitoba. I have requested an interim report as quickly as possible. The Board has met; I have met with the chairman on at least two occasions, and I'm hopeful that progr.ess will be made and, of course, as my honourable friend knows, Mr.

Speaker, I also requested the Minimum Wage Board to give us a complete report, if at all possible, before the end of this current year. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition. MR. WEIR: Mr. Speaker, might I ask the First Minister if he knows yet when we might anticipate a decision on the flooding of South Indian Lake? HON. ED. SCHREYER (Premier and Minister of Industry and Commerce)(Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, could the honourable member repeat the question. I'm sorry. MR. WEIR: Mr.

Speaker, I wondered if the First Minister was able to advise us yet if he can tell us when we might expect a decision on whether South Indian Lake will be flooded or not? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, we hope to come to a decision soon. I indicated earlier, about a week ago or so, perhaps two weeks ago, that it would likely be around the 17th of the month. We• re still hoping that we can make this decision by then. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): ..... not so much a question than a request, perhaps.

I'll direct it to the First Minister in his role as Minister of Industry and Commerce, in the absence of the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. I'm assuming that we'll be dealing with Bill No. 10, The Fisheries Bill, at Law Amendments and I make a request whether or not it would not be in order to have either Mr. Corney the General-Manager, or some representa tion from the federal Marketing Corporation, present at the committee hearings. This is admittedly provincial legislation that we're dealing with but has federal implications, and I

September 8, 1969 525 (MR. ENNS cont• d. ) ... .. understand there will be representation there from industry, and I think the whole work of the committee might be more smoothly serviced if we had as much information before us at that time. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think I can tell the honourable member that it has not been decided yet which committee this Bill will be referred to; it may very well be the Law Amendments Committee; and with regard to the other part of the question, the calling of Mr.

Corney the General Manager of the Fish Marketing Board, I believe that's a good idea and I would hope that this would be possible. MR. EJ\'NS: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, to the First Minister, or perhaps to the House Leader. Could the House Leader indicate to us as soon as a decision is made, as to which committee this bill would be referred to. There is, I understand, the Public Utilities, the Resources Committee, or the Law Amendm ents Committe, but ..... MR. PAULLEY: May I answer the honourable member's question, Mr. Speaker?

The committee, according to the record, to whom the Act was referred to was the Public Utilities and Natural Resources Committee. Consideration is being given as to whether or not it should be referred, notwithstanding that, to Law Amen dments and may I assure my honourable friend that due notice will be given, 24 hours or so, in order that the committee and individuals concerned would be notified accordingly, My honourable friend may note that on the agenda for Law Amendments Committee for Wednesday afternoon, no mention is made of this particular bill. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR.

MOUG: Mr. Speaker, some time ago I asked a question of the Minister of Trans portation in regard to urban renewal, money paid by way of Federal Government, and the possible removal of the Midland Railroad tracks through the River Heights area. Have you anything on that? MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, with the honourable member's permission, I believe that the question was asked of me, and I advised all honourable members that I would be going to Ottawa this weekend to canvass that subject with the appropriate Minister of the Federal Govern ment and that, following our discussions, we would have to decide what the provincial policy would be in lieu of whatever federal commitments will be made at that time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Part y. MR. G.

JOHNSTON (Port age la Prair ie) : My question is to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture, It is to do with the credit union interest rates. It is my understanding that credit unions can only pay depositors six percent so my question is, in view of the fact that there is concern among certain credit unions because they cannot give depositors more than six percent, is his department considering bringing in a change in the Act to allow for greater interest return? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, the matter has not been brought to my attention but I'll look into the question and advise my honourable friend. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Labour. I understand _the federal minimum wage rate includes a formula providing increases geared to the cost of living, Is the Minister of Labour thinking of, or considering the same kind of a formula for the Pro vince of Manitoba? MR. PAULL EY: Mr. Speaker, if I may reply to my honourable friend similar to a reply I gave just a few moments ago to the honourable member of the Conservative Party, respecting minimum wage.

I am not responsible for any statement of the Honourable the Minister of Labour at the federal level. I'm quite intrigued, however, with newspaper reports presumably referring to statements alleged to have been made by the federal Minister of Labour as to the cost of living, but I want to assure my honourable friend that, as far as this government is concerned, we will take under consideration at any time in respect of minimum wages, escalation and cost of living. We are concerned to give to every Manitoban, as much as humanly possible, a reasonable return.

I also remind my honourable friend that the directives to the Minimum Wage Board, as adopted by this House last session in the spring, have been trans mitted to the Minimum Wage Board for their consideration. MR. J, WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): .. .... Minister of Labour ... . MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I noticed in the local papers reference to statements made by the Honourable Bryce Mackasey in Ottawa. How they got here, I don't know. I'm not

526 September 8, 1969 (MR. PAULL EY cont1d. ) .. .. . a newspaper man. MR. JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland) : Mr. Speaker, I have a question and I think I should direct it to the House Leader. Apparently the First Report of the Special Committee of the House appointed to prepare a list of members to compose the standing committees was tabled in the House last Friday, and it doesn't mention in Hansard that it was read. I just received notice of Hansard and the Votes and Procee dings.

This is my first time that I see the actual list, and I must register my opposition, protest to the setting up of the committees and the way they have been set up. I do this because at a following session we might find ourselves in the same position and I wouldn't want to have this go in setting a precedent and later on not being able to protest. Was the actual report read out as Hansard indicates? And why were we asked to submit a list as to which committees we were going to sit on if this wasn't going to be followed? MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, may I suggest to my honourable friend the Member for Rhineland that the time of protest was on receipt of the report of the committee, but I do want to say to the House that the Honourable Member for Rhineland was kind enough to submit to me a list of committees that he was desirous of sitting on, but due to the fact of the ratio of members in this House it was not possible to give consideration to my honourable friend, to accede to his request, and I might say the same is true of the Honourable Member for Churchill, because if I had acceded- or the committee, I should say, not me- if the committee had acceded to their requests, they would have been on seven or eight different committees and there wouldn't have been representation proportionately to other members of the respective parties in the House.

May I also remind my honourable friend, Mr. Speaker, that the committee of seven to establish the standing committees of the House was selected by a vote of this House, without protestation from my honourable friend. MR. FROESE: .. .. indicated wasn't even adhered to. Secondly, this is my first time that I can register a protest because the report was never read in the House. It was brought in but it was not read, and I didn't even know the contents of that report, so how was I able to voice my protest at that time? MR. PAU LLEY: Mr.

Speaker, may I just briefly suggest to my honourable friend that while he may see for the first time the printing of that list, on receipt of that report last Friday, I believe, my honourable friend could have asked my colleague who presented the report at that time, for a list of the members and made his protest then. MR. FROESE : Mr. Speaker, on that point, the honourable member indicates that because there are as many members in the House that it is impossible for us to be on as many commit tees as we would like. How come, then, that the member for St. Boniface is on five and I am on three?

Certainly there should be some semblance .. .. . MR. SP EAKER: Order. Order. I am wondering whether it is proper to reflect upon an action, a decision of this House. The report was presented, moved and seconded and voted upon, and the matter ought to be considered as completed. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Ru ssell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-R ussell) : Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture.

In view of the serious financial situation of the farmers today, and also in view of the concern expressed by the member for Brokenhead last session, is the Minister considering any form of government participation in an active program to import foreign purchased farm machinery for Manitoba farmers? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, this is something that is very interesting and I am sure it might be entertaining to find out ... . MR. SPEA KER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, this is not supplementary to the issue raised by the member for Birtle-Russell, but also dealing with the farm community. I have had some disturbing reports coming to me from my constituents again with respect to fast-talking salesmen that are taking advantage of the occasion in selling grain storage facilities. Somehow these facilities get sold but never put up.

We now have a new Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, a new bill - I don't know whether the question should be directed towards him or to the Minister of Agriculture but can the Minister undertake to investigate in any way a manner of devising some way of bringing the farming public more aware of these practises, or name them. Thank you. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, if the honourable member would undertake to provide

September 8, 1969 527 (MR. SCHREYER cont•d. ) .. .. . either Minister with the details, the allegations, I am sure that either or both of the Ministers would be anxious to have an investigation made. MR. SPEAKER : Orders of the Day. Address for Papers. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, I would like to address my question to the Honourable Minister of Education. Is it true that the Manitoba Associ ation of School Trustees has been unable to arrange a meeting with the Cabinet since the June election? MR. MILLER: Mr.

Speaker, I read the same news story - I was as equally intrigued by the news story. I have no knowledge that this is the case. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, in reply to the question directed to me by the Honourable Member for Churchill, the government is fully aware of the matters raised by the member and wish to assure him that the government has taken action to insure, first, that sewer and water service connections are made available to property owners in Churchill whose properties are capable of being serviced by the utility at a reasonable connection charge; and secondly, consid eration is being given to see that property owners who are unable to pay the full installation charge at the time their properties are connected to the utility, will be able to apply to the local government district in order to pay the unpaid principal balance together with interest thereon, by annual installments over the next ensuing seven years.

MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. This is the result of some statements by the Minister of Health and Social Services and I just want to verify some figures on taxation, if I may.

Is it correct fra t at the moment the amount of provincial income tax over which the province has control is five percent on individuals and one percent on corporations, and is it correct that the returns from these two taxes in the last fiscal year were $10 million on the personal and roughly $2 1/2 million on the corporate? MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, the statements made by the honourable member are not correct, I think it's even incorrect to be quoting him as having made this statement. I am under the impression that a member of his own party made certain calculations which I thought were completely wrong.

Having said that, I am not sure that I can give you the answers off hand but I can .... I would first point out that the provincial share of income tax is 33 percent of the basic tax on your tax return, not five PE1rcent, and the provincial share of the corporate tax is 11 percent, but I don't think I should try to confuse the issue by trying to speak from recollection as to how much it brings in. You would find that, if I may, Mr. Speaker, fm m the revenue estimates that were filed at the last session, but you will certainly find that in due course. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister either has not understood my question or does not wish to understand it. MR. CHERNIACK: Oh come! Oh please! MR. MOLGAT: Is it not correct that the 33 percent is made up of a 28 percent standard rebate to all provinces, and that there is a five percent provincially imposed tax, and this is really the only tax over which the province has control - the five percent. Is this correct or wrong? MR. CHERNIACK: Well, I would say that there is 33 percent of the basic taxes paid to the province.

The Act that I read last, which was passed in the December 1966 session - which was the time that the honourable member will remember when a bill was passed - the

section reads (not verbatim) that the province shall impose a personal income tax of 33 percent. That's the way it reads. So

interpretation is not for Orders of the Day or Questions before Orders of the Day, that• s for debate, which I hope we will enter into in due course. MR. MOLGAT: I'll be very happy to. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. BUD SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I•d like to direct a question to the Minister of Education. Can he tell the House of the status at the present time of the possible change of name for the Manitoba Institute of Technology, and can he tell the House if any determination has been made as to what the new name might be? MR. MILLER: .. .. no definite decision about a change of name and therefore I can• t guess what the change of name might be.

528 September 8, 1969 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. LEONARD .A. BARKMAN (La Verendrye): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Health and Social Services. In view of the high cost of the postage, administrative costs, stationery, is it the intention of your department to send out monthly statements, or bi-annually or annually, on the 55 cents a month premium? MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, we will be looking into any steps that can be taken to streamline the previous procedure that was followed under the Manitoba Medical Services. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Transportation. MR. BOROWSKI: ... to register a mild protest against the press. Last Friday the lady member from Fort Rouge asked me a facetious question and I answered it in the same light, and that is that if TransAir take over, she - I think her question was would the govern ment consider taking over TransAir, and of course I said, jokingly, if they'd support it, certainly. The press was responsible enough to quote the answer and question. The radio stations and the television played it up like we were really considering it. --(Interjection) - Certainly not.

I think they are not doing Manitoba any good. I think it is going to harm the relationship. It came out from New York on a Dow Jones ticker tape that some suggestion was made that we were seriously considering, and this of course was not the case. The press that was up in the gallery knew this was not the case, and I would ask in fact, for a more responsible manner, not to scare investors outside of Manitoba by making that type of statement. MRS. INEZ TRUEMAN (Fort Rouge): On a matter of privilege, Mr.

Speaker, I don't think that I like the Minister of Transportation to be able to assume to read my mind and decide what my motives are. MR. WEIR: ..... MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition is a man who has a sense of humor. Like everyone else, he knows that from time to time questions are put in a bantering way and are answered in a similar vein. MR.

WEIR: .... the First Minister was asking me a question, which is a little unusual, I realize that they are, but I also realize that Ministers of the Crown are responsible for the statements they make and, by golly, I would think that maybe some of the Ministers on the other side, including the First Minister, might wonder about some of the banter they use from time to time .. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, if I may I ..... the Leader of the Opposition that he in his capacity, too, is responsible for the statements that he makes in this House. MR. WEIR: The difference is, Mr.

Speaker, having made them I don•t tr y and back away from them. ORDERS OF THE DAY - MOTIONS FOR PAPERS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Portage, that an humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor praying for copies of all correspondence between the Manitoba Government and the Government of Canada, the Inter-National Joint Commission and the Government of the United States since April 1, 1961, with regard to the cooperative development of the Pembina River Basin. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR.

SCHREYER: There is no reason why this order, this Address for Papers cannot be accepted, and accordingly it is accepted subject to the usual reservation, that is, requiring the concurrence of the other governments involved. MR. FROESE: . . . . . the previous session, so .... MR. SCHREYER: With the same reservation. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. SHERMAN: In the absence of the Honourable Member for Morris, Mr. Speaker, could we have that item stand? (Stand.) INTRODUCTION OF GUEST MR.

SPEAKER: It has been drawn to my attention that the Honourable the Minister of Health for the Province of Saskatchewan, the Honourable Mr. Grant, is in the Speaker's Gallery. May we extend a welcome to you on behalf of the members of the Manitoba Legislature.

-------------- ------- ---- ----- ----- September 8, 1969 529 GOVERNMENT BILLS MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debates on second readings. The proposed motion of the Honourable the First Minister. The Honourable Member for St. Matthews. MR. WALLY JOHANNSON (St. Matthews): Mr. Speaker, although all parties in this House support the Ombudsman bill in principle, and we welcome this support, a number of opposition members have expressed reservations regarding, 1. The necessity of the bill; 2. Particular clauses, especially changes made in the Ombudsman bill drafted by the previous government.

The Honourable Member from Churchill on August 20th, Page 69 in }Iansard, expressed his reservations regarding the bill, and I quote: "Voting against an Ombudsman is probably like voting against motherhood, so I will support it, but I predict it will be a heyday for the law profession of this province. That• s why they want it. It will be a competition between the Attorney-General's office and the Ombudsman's empire." I must say that we welcome the support of the Honourable Member from Churchill but hasten to reassure him that some of his fears are unfounded.

One basic advantage of the Ombudsman is that he can provide less expensive and more flexible relief than legal remedies. The Honourable Member from Swan River expressed doubts about the necessity of an Ombudsman, and I quote from his statement of August 20th, Page 75 Hansard: "What I have to say, Mr. Speaker, is not the opinion of my party but rather my own opinion. I would like you to know, Mr. Speaker, that I am not entirely sold on the idea in our province of a million people .

A newe report tells us that 67 percent of the complaints referred to the Ombudsman in Alberta last year were referred elsewhere for action. I can see developing another $100, 000 annual expense on the backs of our over-burdened taxpayers. With redistribution, Mr. Speaker, th e majority of us represent some 16, 000 people. It is my contention that if I cannot ably represent those people in matters that concern them, I should not be here representing them. I deplore the day, Mr.

Speaker, when members become nothing more than rubber stamps or buck passers." The honourable member implied in his contribution that elected representatives were capable of handling the grievances of the people of the province. This is, of course, one of the extra legal recourses available to a citizen who has a grievance in his dealings with the State. However, there are limitations to the effectiveness of elected representatives in hand ling redress of grievances.

No. 1: the primary function of MLAs is to legislate, and in the modern state, with its increasing volume of legislation, this is a necessarily time-consuming task. The MLA has less and less time to deal in a thorough manner with grievances of constituents. The individual MLA has no staff to investigate. The only grievances which come to his attention are those from citizens aggressive enough and conscious and knowledgeable enough about their rights to complain to their MLA. No. 2: Individual MLAs vary greatly in their ability to bring about redress of grievances.

This is dependent upon their experience, prestige and influence, knowledge of government machinery and aggressiveness. After less than two months' experience as an MLA, I have already had one case where I failed to settle a grievance of a constituent because I was not aggressive enough, did not bring enough pressure to bear upon the particular government agency involved. Luckily, another MLA did bring about redress of the particular grievance through exerting pressure upon the bureaucracy.

No. 3: A real problem for MLAs is gaining access to necessary information, particularly when government agencies hold back or limit the use of material on the grounds of confidenti ality, and I've already had experience with this. No. 4: The political position of an MLA can restrict his effectiveness. A government supporter will seldom use the most effective weapon available to him -publicity -because it would embarrass his government. An opposition member will often have little influence in the civil service and the public will disregard his complaints as an attempt to embarrass the government.

The Honourable Member from Swan River doubts the necessity of an Ombudsman, though he admitted that he spoke for himself and not his party. He felt that the people in his constit uency have all the liberty and civil rights they need and again I quote Page 76 Hansard: "These people," that is in Swan River, "understand freedom, Mr. Speaker, and they have it. Possibly there is some reason or problems warranting the quotation in the Throne Speech .... " MR. JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, ..... was

530 September 8, 1969 (MR. BILTON cont'd.) ..... under a different heading than the .... MR. JOHANNSON: Mr. Speaker, I checked the speech, the speech the honourable member made in Hansard, and this did have a bearing on the question of the Ombudsman. "I must say, however, that they are unknown to me." This is a common assumption in Canada based upon the fact that we have inherited the British tradition of the rule of law.

If I may quote from Rowat•s book, "The Ombudsman," which the Honourable Member from River Heights referred to the other day: "In Canada, one of the most frequently voiced objections to the Ombudsman proposal is that it is not needed. Citizens' rights seem to be adequately protected already and one doesn't hear about very many cases of persons who have been dealt with unfairly by the administration.

The objectors do not appreciate that, since administrative action is secret in many cases, the great majority of such cases do not come to light." In 1966, a submission of the Manitoba Bar Association concluded that Manitoba did require improved administrative safeguards for the civil rights of our citizens. Study of the power and the rights of appeal from provincial administrative agencies revealed that in some cases there was no provision for appeal. For example, the Construction Safety Board regard ing safety of construction projects.

In some cases, for example the Motor Carrier Board, appeal is only on questions of law or jurisdiction, not on merits. In other cases, for example the Civil Service Commission, appeal is possible only to another level of administration, not to an outside tribunal. The Bar Association made a survey of its members to gather examples of cases illustra ting the need for an Ombudsman. Its conclusion was: "While the percentage of such cases may be small, the number of them and the hardship and distrust of government they engender is significant.

" They gave examples of cases that have occurred in Appendix B of their submission. "We also heard of a prisoner at Headingley who was placed in solitary confinement for ten days for attempting to write a letter to a Member of Parliament charging that a guard had homo sexually assaulted another prisoner.

Even assuming that the prisoner's charge was wholly unfounded, it seems to us a very serious breach of civil liberty to prevent a prisoner writing to a Member of Parliament on any subject he chooses." The need, therefore, to provide the citizens of Manitoba with adequate safeguards against administrative error and excesses is, we submit, incontestable. On Friday, the Honourable Member from Ste. Rose spoke on the Ombudsman Bill. I found myself in agreement with some of his basic assumptions.

For example, he said, "I'm satisfied that in the long run openness is the best." The supporters of this government are in basic agreement with him on the desirability of open government. While the honourable member and his party, Mr. Speaker, are in ag reement with the Bill on principle, he expressed reser vations regarding specific features of the Bill. He approved of the change this government has made in the tenure provision of the Bill. The Honourable Member from River Heights also requested the reasons why the government has made this change in the bill.

In the original bill, the Ombudsman was to serve until age 65. The change tenure clause provides for an initial six year term which can be renewed once. The maximum term of the Ombudsman will be twelve years. The government and its supporters find themselves in agreement with the submission of the Manitoba Bar Association made in 1966 which stated: "To carry out his role effectively, the Ombudsman must be absolutely free from influence or the suspicion of influence, by the government or anyone else. There must, therefore, be reasonable security of tenure.

At the same time, however, the danger of an incumbent going stale or becoming incompetent in office must be guarded against by providing for periodic changes of ombudsmen and removal for just cause. Countries that have ombudsmen have all dealt with this problem much in the same way. In almost every case the term of appointment is four years. In Sweden the custom has developed, after 162 years of experience with the institution, that an appointment is usually renewed once but never more than twice, so the normal term of office is eight to twelve years.

A disadvantage of life appointment is that the incumbent• s term of office may outlive his enthusiasm, initiative and energy. For this reason, we recommend appointment for a six-year period which would normally be renewed once." The Honourable Member from Ste. Rose also objected to the provision for suspension or

September 8, 1969 531 (MR. JOHANNSON cont•d.) ..... removal of the Ombudsman by a two-thirds vote of the Legislature. He urged that the Ombudsman be removed only by a majority of the House, including leaders of the opposition parties, in order to insure the impartiality of the decision and to free the Ombudsman from political pressure. However, it was for that very purpose that the government decided to change the clause in the Conservative bill which provided for removal by simple majority of the House to removal by two-thirds majority.

The Manitoba Bar Association suggested that reasonable security of tenure would be achieved by this provision. The Honourable Member from Ste. Rose also objected to the provision giving the Attorney-General power to limit the Ombudsman's investigation, which provision was retained from the original bill. However, the fact that each exercise by the Attorney-General of this power will be reported to the Legislature in the annual report of the Ombudsman, would deter the Attorney-General from over-zealous use of this veto of power over investigation.

I would hope that after a few years, experience would show that this restrictive provision could be dropped. The Honourable Member from River Heights wanted to know why the government dropped the restriction in the original bill which prevented the Ombudsman from investigating a decision or recommendation of a counsel of the Crown in relation to proceedings in which the Crown has an interest. If a counsel gives advice to the Crown which really hurts someone, if it was not an error in judgment but

an act of malice or irresponsibility or anything relating to that, this is the only case in which such counsel would come within the purview of the Ombudsman. I was amazed at the suggestion of the Honourable Member from River Heights that the first two cases the Ombudsman investigate should be the relationship of Damascus Steel and Friendly Family Farms to the Manitoba Development Fund. The government has made it abundantly clear that such investigations are a matter of government policy. A basic require ment for the Ombudsman must be non-involvement in political controversy.

If he were used to embarrass the government or the opposition, it would drastically impair his credibility and his effectiveness. The Honourable Member from River Heights has now twice, within a period of about a week, urged this government to pass an Administrative Practices Act. From what I have read, this recommendation appears to have merit.

The submission of the Manitoba Bar Association to the Committee of the Manitoba Legislature on the Ombudsman in 1966 stated: "We understand that an Administrative Procedures Act, which would improve and standardize the way in which hearings before administrative tribunals are held, is being considered by the governme nt." The submission urged that this reform, plus others, be carried out. However, Mr. Speaker, the energetic persistence of the Honourable Member from River Heights in pressing this government to enact such legislation, puzzles me.

In his speech of August 27, Page 243 Hansard, he said, "The Ombudsman Act and the Ombudsman responsi bilities are necessary, but along with it should be some uniformity in procedures by admini strative bodies so that each citizen would be able to know exactly that he is treated fairly and promptly when he appears before the appropriate body." He also stated that the province required an Invasion of Privacy Act, a provincial Bill of Rights, and a major reform of our legal system to remove many outdated concepts. Again I'm puzzled, Mr. Speaker.

Is it possible that in the period of less than two months since this government assumed office these great problems have developed in administrative bodies and our legal system? Have many concepts of our legal system become outdated in a period of less than two months? Or were these problems and outdated concepts in existence before July 15? As a teacher of history, I've come to the conclusion that the legal system was notoriously resistant to change. Perhaps the scholars were wrong.

Perhaps the processes of change have accelerated to an extent that it would horrify even a Social Democrat, who is not ordinarily frightened of change. Or perhaps these problems existed before. The previous government was in power for over a decade. The Honourable Member for River Heights joined the administration in 1966. That same year, the Manitoba Bar Association understood that an Administrative Procedures Act was being considered by the government. Again I'm puzzled, Mr. Speaker.

The Honourable Member from River Heights described the Conservative Party under Duff Roblin as "revolutionary in terms of action and specific reforms on all fronts." Page 241 Hansard. Yet, after a decade in power, this party had not passed an Administrative Practices Act, an Invasion of Privacy Act, a provincial Bill of Rights. It had not carried out the major reform of our legal system, which the honourable member now

532 September 8, 1969 (MR. JOHANNSON cont•d.) ..... insists is necessary, The honourable member insists that the Ombudsman Bill must be accompanied by an Administrative Practices Act. He was a member of the previous administration for three years. Why did that government fail to produce this Act? Judging by the honourable member's persistent argument now, I don't see how the previous administration could have resisted the logic of his argument. Where is the bill? We found 62 bills which died on the Order Paper of the previous Legislature when we formed the new government.

We found the Ombudsman Bill but no Administrative Practices Act. Perhaps it was a secret bill. Perhaps it was inadver tently carted off in the personal files of the departing Cabinet Minister, or perhaps it didn't exist. Mr. Speaker, in conclusion, it took our government less than a week after opening this Session to introduce the Ombudsman Bill which the previous administration did not succeed in passing after a decade in office. This speaks for itself. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C, (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the honourable Member would permit a question?

Do you believe that the Assembly should pass an Admini strative Practices Act? MR. JOHANNSON: Do I believe ..... MR. SPIV AK: Do you believe the Assembly should pass an Administrative Practices Act? MR. JOHANNSON: Mr. Speaker, if this government decides in favour of an Administrative Practices Act, I don•t think it will take a decade for it to pass it. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, that's not the question. I've asked the honourable member if he believes that it should or should not, MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. FOX: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre, that debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. CHERNIACK: We•re most anxious to proceed with this. I think all the members, all the other parties have been represented in the speeches. However, I certainly wouldn't like to insist that we proceed in the absence of the honourable member.

Possibly we could let it stand one more time and we'll request him to be present on the next occasion. MR. SPEAKER: Stand? (Stand.) MR. CHERNIACK: I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Tourism and Rec reation, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House resolved itself into Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Elmwood in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR.

CHAIRMAN: Department of Tourism and Recreation, on Page 25 of the estimates. Resolution 92, 1. (a). The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, ..... make some comments, but before he does, I just want to make a very brief comment myself. The first one is to wish my constituent, who occupies the office of Minister, the very best ofluck in his new endeavours.

One of the matters that I brought to the attention of the previous government with which the present Minister will be very familiar and which I want to bring to his attention again in his present office, is one that I know annoys a lot of people in Manitoba when they go to this particular site, and I'm referring to Mount Baldy, which I'm sure the Minister is aware, being resident fairly close to it. It doesn't matter what map of Manitoba you go to, published by this government, it indicates Mount Baldy is the highest altitude in Manitoba. The map indicates it. Our tourist literature does the same.

It's referred to quite frequently, yet, when the tourist goes up there there is absolutely nothing to see. You are deep in the bush, the forest is high around you, and there's no possibility of seeing any distance at all. I know there is a forestry tower but very few people would hazard the climb on the forestry tower. I'd like to suggest to the Minister that something be done. Either let•s not promote the site if we don't intend to do something about it, or if we do in fact intend people to go up there,

September 8, 1969 533 (MR. MOLGAT cont'd.) then let us arrange to either clear some trees in part of the location, or produce a tower that can be climbed easily by average people, not by mountain climbers, and make use of the site. Personally, I think it has a good deal of potential. The Duck Mountains are growing every year in popularity. There are some excellent sites through the Duck Mountains and more and more people are making use of them, and Mount Baldy could be a feature that would attract people. At present, I think it disappoints them. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Chairman, I possibly should bring some of my philosophy and thoughts to the department. First of all, I would like to congratulate the Minister, who shares an adjoining boundary with me. Fortunately, I have to drive through his constituency to get to mine, the north end of the constituency that I have the honour to represent. I have to go through Dauphin to get there. I also would like to join the sentiments of the Member for Ste. Rose with reference to Baldy.

I have talked about Baldy Mountain many times in the House and, while the government has started to construct the road from Grandview to get up there, this has been a problem over the years to come in from the south, one now --I think some five, six miles have been started this year, so, this will be a big help and I certainly join the sentiments of the Member for Ste. Rose in this respect, because the Duck Mountains no doubt is going to be a major year round resort in Manitoba and it would utilize any money that the Minister could find to improve the conditions around Baldy Mountain.

While it's not the highest point of, you know --but it is in this province considered to be a historical site. The park itself, the Duck Mountain Park, is some 500 miles by-- I think square miles. There's some 73 lakes in there, and I'm pleased to note in my travels around the city here that more and more Manitobans are making use of the facilities in there.

While they are limited at the moment, I can see that the new admini stration and the government in the past, especially when it came out in the TED Report that the future of a new industry lies right there in the Duck Mountains, I would urge the Minister to use everything possible to try and develop it as a year round resort. Another problem there that has come up over the years, and whether the Minister in his wisdom could assist the local Chambers of Commerce, and that consists of Dauphin, and that is to try to find some way to get the connecting road between Rossburn and Grandview.

This has been one that's been on the books for a long time. It's not an easy problem to resolve. The fe deral government are involved, of course. Considerable work has been done in the past three or four years in this respect and about all we've got out of it is the promise of the federal Minister that he would appear and hold a meeting, but in the meantime they put gates on the north end of the park and they're all locked now, so while we did have some access to the Riding Mountain National Park, now we've lost that access. I understand the south, of course, is open.

I would also like to urge the Minister to try and work as closely as he could with the· Parkland Development Corporation who he no doubt is well acquainted with and knows the director and the executive. This group has done a tremendous job in its short term of office.

I'm sure possibly that he's aware of a survey that they have completed this summer, an extensive survey of the area of the park facilities, of the number of people that have been coming in and out of the area, the utilization of the present facilities and what the future potention lies in the tourist business, and if the Minister hasn't got those figures he could either get them from me or he could get them from the Parkland regional office in Dauphin, but I think you'll find them very interesting, especially some of the car counts.

I'd also like to urge the Minister to tr y and use his wisdom and his staff to try and bring along the Asessippi Provincial Park. The lands have been acquired and, while it's going to be left in sort of a natural state, not too much has been done. I bear with him and his department that moneys are not as easily available as they should be, but this again would be another profitable industry in the region and will draw a large tourist traffic through the area, especially due to the fact that the Shellmouth Dam is now completed, and the reservoir.

I would hope that maybe some day that the Department of Water Control would circulate to the members these little brochures that are available now on the Shellmouth Reservoir. You'll find it quite inter esting. The Community Planning Branch is one that I join the sentiments of the Member from Sturgeon Creek, I think it was, who spoke on Friday, that this I think is a place where the Minister could move a lot of guidance and direction to our young people. I took a very active

534 September 8, 1969 (MR. McKENZIE cont•d.) .....

part in local athletics and this in my community for many years, and find with very little money. Basically all you need is the initiative of people or the planning and direction that people should go, to take care of our young people, and in a program that went some I think eight years of looking after the needs of our young people in the summer and winter as far as their recreation is concerned, we found in a period over eight years that there wasn't one boy or one girl that went through that program that was ever charged by any law enforcement officer in the area.

They have all turned out to be above average citizens and I've no doubt some of the credit must go to the program that was brought on by the local people, but unfortunately the local government, municipalities, don't seem to be able to have enough direction from the department.

You go to some of these municipalities and you almost have to spend days of your time trying to convince them that it is a good thing, so basically, in the rural parts of the province, it's come about just through the ingenuity of some of the local individuals, but I think the local municipalities, with some direction from the Minister, could even improve on the present program, but I could assure him that it's done a good job in the past and I hope it will continue in the future.

Our young people seem to have more and more spare time on their hands and anything that we can do to make sure that those hours are spent usefully, especially the recreational ones, I think is a valuable contribution. I'd also like to urge the Minister to try and follow the TED Report as closely as he can, because this report indicates the tremendous potential that Manitoba, and especially this parkland region, could enjoy if we follow the philosophy outlined there, especially in the Duck Mountains.

I think the program that was laid out in that report fully utilizes the many natural attractions that are already there. I think, I spoke in the House on occasions before, that Roblin constituency, I think, has more natural beauty than any other constituency in the pro vince.

The beauty is there and it's one that I think, because of its central location and because of its proximity to the east and west travel arteries, and the north .and south travel arteries, especially in that western region there, it has a great future, but the programming and the direction has got to come from government, and I can assure the Minister I'm only too pleased to assist him if my services are required, and the people of the constituency will be more than pleased to offer him any suggestions or attend meetings or help him with the program. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Mr.

Chairman, first may I offer my congratulations to the Minister on his appointment to the Department of Tourism and Recreation. I would just like to leave a few thoughts with him that I have on tourism and recreation. I'm not going to take too much time up. I want to congratulate him on the announcement that he's made in the House on the new parks at Hecla Island and Duck Mountain. I would like to make a suggestion perhaps to his department to think about.

We•ve heard much about facilities for conventions, etc., here in the City of Winnipeg, but I think an idea that perhaps his department could take under considera tion is for summer convention facilities, perhaps at one of our provincial parks. Industry, trade unions, educational conferences could be held at a place like this, much on the same lines as the Banff School of Fine Arts, and I think this would bring many tourists and many conven tions into the Province of Manitoba to see the wonderful facilities that we do have here.

Another thing that I would suggest to the Minister and his department, that perhaps they could work in conjunction with the Department of Youth and Education. I would recommend to the government and to the Minister concerned that perhaps some facilities could be set up, such as they have at Toronto Island Park for underprivileged children, to go away for a week or 10 days to study horticulture and see the flora and the fauna that we have in our province.

When you realize, honourable members, that there are many children in the City of Winnipeg who live in an asphalt and concrete jungle, who never really .see what beauties there are in our surrounding parks of Manitoba, I think that this is a most worthy cause that this government could consider. Another thing, Mr.

Chairman, I don't know just to which department this should be addressed, but I think that next year being our Centennial year, that perhaps, in the matter of licence plates for our automobiles, there could be some reference made to Manitoba, and I have no objections to having a buffalo on the plate but I think that we could make some reference to Manitoba. Perhaps we could refer to it as the province of 100, 000 or 50, 000 lakes.

Surely we have that many, and I think some reference, perhaps either to the Minister of Transporta tion or perhaps to the Minister of Tourism and Recreation, that this is one way of advertising to people of other parts of Canada and the United States just where Manitoba is and just what

September 8, 1969 535 (MR. JENKINS cont•d.) ..... facilities we do possess. With those few brief remarks, Mr. Chairman, I wish again to offer my most sincere congratulations to the Minister, Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member from St. Vital. MR. JACK HARDY (St. Vital): Mr. Chairman, my remarks will be brief in view of the fact that practically all aspects of the tourist operation within the Province of Manitoba, from its northern portions to the American border, have been covered and I must concur in the requests and suggestions that have been brought forward.

I'd also like to at this time congratu late the Minister on his appointment and Pm sure he is looking forward to many good and fruitful meetings with various levels of government and other tourist promotion agencies. Insofar as tourism is concerned, as I say, this has been practically covered from all points, but there is one area, I think within the Metropolitan Winnipeg area although it falls into the confines of recrea,tion rather than tourism, and I am speaking of the Red River Flood way.

I think here is a tremendous potential; a tremendous potential exists in the utilization of this structure for both winter and summer sports activities. I think we are all aware that during the Pan Am Games the rowing was held on the Floodway itself and I think it was a very successful undertaking. Insofar as winter sports are concerned, I think it is very quickly becoming a haven for autoboggans and, with all due respect to the Honourable Member from Charleswood and his Arctic Cats, they are also making extensive use of this facility, but I think it can be improved upon and may I suggest, Mr.

Chairman, through you to the Honourable Minister that he seriously consider expanding the present facilities of the Floodway for the utilization of these particular types of sport for the urban area of Greater Winnipeg. I am sure the Minister is also aware that under certain sections of the Act, the Municipal Act, the province is making grants on a per capita basis for the promotion of recreation on the basis with a maximum of $1, 500, and in addition there is a $2, 000 grant that may be applied for in order that a local level, a local community might undertake the services of a physical education director.

Now this is very fine and, as a matter of fact, I would like to congratulate the Minister on the operation of his Physical Fitness and Amateur Sports Branch which is now under the Community Recreation Branch. It would appear to me, and I know that the members from the opposite side of the House have said this on many occasions, these are the estimates of the former government and I can appreciate that, but it seems rather odd to me that the grants from this particular department insofar as it applies to local levels of government, is $166, 000,

whereas the salaries and other expenditures exceed the amount of this grant, and may I suggest to the Minister that he give very serious consideration to increasing the grants to communities, local levels of government, for the continuation, expansion of existing recreational programs within the area. It is becoming increasingly difficult at the community club level to find the qualified people, who have the time and the inclination to assist our younger people in the promotion of recreational activities.

The member from Roblin indicated that Roblin is the home of, I believe it was one of the champions of the Little League, and may I suggest that in St. Vital we are also the home of many, many provincial championships and· also the Dominion Senior Football champions, but may I suggest, as I say, Sir, that the gr ants that are now available to local levels may be expanded in order to provide uniformity in recreational facilities and a better utilization of the facilities.

I think if his department were to undertake a study of this type, with a view of mak ing increases in the grants, that it would go a long way to furthering the recreational programs in the pr ovince. May I also suggest, Sir, that you, in consultation with the Minister of Municipal Affairs, perhaps could expand on the particular

section of the Act which provides that grants may be made to local levels for the furtherance of boys• and girls• recreation. Insofar as it applies from a legal point, it does present a grey area as far as the local councils are concerned, when it comes to the point where they are dealing with community clubs, and I would respectfully request that this be given serious consideration in order that it points out in a much better manner the direction and the areas in which local councils may operate. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr.

Chairman, first of all, I would like to express my appreciation to the members for their words of encouragement to me. During the debate on this department's estimates, there will be a number of constructive ideas and suggestions put forth by several members, and I wish to assure all of the members that any good constructive criticism or new idea that has merit, will be considered in the formulation and implementation of departmental

536 September 8, 1969 (MR. BURTNIAK cont' d. ) ..... plans and programs. I will attempt to reply to some of the more specific ques tions that were asked the other day and some that were asked today, and suggestions that have been made by the members . First of all, I would like to begin with saying that the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose constituency asked if the highway leading to the new Hecla Island provincial park is to be hard-surfaced.

I wish to inform the member that it is certainly hoped by this department that all of the highway sys tem leading to the Hecla Island park would at some time in the not too distant future be paved, and I will be consulting with my colleague the Honourable Minister of Transportation on this matter regarding the possible future timing of such road cons truction. Now the member for Ste. Rose also asked the question of me a few days ago, regarding the possible establishment of a second national park in Manitoba.

I also believe that the Member for Assiniboia also enquired about this matter during the debate on this department• s estimates, and I wish to inform both members that negotations with the Federal Government concerning the possible establishment of a second national park in this province are still under way, and I am therefore unable to report further on this matter at the present time. The Member for Assiniboia also suggests it would be advantageous to maintain tourist promotion offices in the United States. Well, I can advise the honourable member that,

whereas we do not currently maintain any tourist information offices in the United States, we do place a highly trained staff member in the Canadian Government Travel Bureau offices in both Minneapolis and in Chicago during the tourist season. The Member for Assiniboia suggested that the hallmark attractions that exist in Manitoba, such as the Flin Flan Trout Festivel, The Pas Trappers' Festi val, are not supported by the Provincial Government.

Well, I would like to advise the honourable member that these events are in fact, supported with both financial and organizational assistance by the Department of Tourism and Recreation, These interesting and colourful events and others such as, for example, the Icelandic Fes tival at Gimli or the Ukrainian Fes tival in Dauphin, naturally bring a lot of tourists from both within the province and outside the province.

I might say, in attending the Ukrainian Fes tival in Dauphin this past summer, there were people there from as far west as British Columbia and as far east as the province of Nova Scotia and many, many from the United States. I hope that these events expand of course in the future. Witho\lt in any way wishing to detract from the importance of such local events, I still believe that, as pointed out in the TED Report, there is a need in this provinc e for a major hallmark event of international status and recognition.

The es tablishment of such an event will not be easy, of course, and I invite the ideas of all members and, in fact, anyone in general who wishes to propose any reasonable idea concerning the development of a major event of provincial hallmark proportions. Some members enquired about the future of seasonal trailer villages, I believe it was the Honourable Member for Ass iniboia, which exist in some of the provincial parks .

Now, as the member noted, some of the occupants have been there for continuous occupancy for a period of years, and there is currently some concern on the part of these people that their occupancy may be terminated. Now this is a rather difficult problem. I realize that. As several of the members pointed out, there are insufficient trailer sites to accommodate the heavy influx of tourists and others desiring short term occupancy.

Some of the better trailer site locations are currently devoted to seasonal use, and in some cases there is not an over-abundance of good land to develop new trailer sites in the most favourable location. We therefore have the problem of requiring additional sites for short term users and having a number of good sites tied up on the seas onal basis . The resolution of this problem is currently under consideration by the department. A good deal of interest was expressed, too, by several members regarding recreational aid that is given to communities.

Last year, I might say a total of 156 communities received recreational grants, and financial support was also given to 19 communities under another grant program, in which assistance is given to th os e communities that hire full-time rec reational directors . It is my hope that this type of aid can be extended to additional communities throughout the province. Some of the members have advocated that school facilities such as gymnasiums, etc. , might be utilized to advantage by communities in the development of other recreational programs after normal school hours.

This is a very interes ting possibility and one that will be considered, I can assure you, by this department.

Whereas control of such facilities rests with the local

September 8, 1969 537 (MR. BURTNIAK cont• d. ) ..... school board, it is my intention to initiate discussions with my colleague the Honourable Minister of Youth and Education, to see if the use of the school facilities for recreational purposes could be organized. I might add that the program of the Community Recreation Branch are aimed at the inclusion of activities catering to all levels, to all age levels, and we will recognize that it is not only the young and athletic that require leisure time activities , but the adult people as well.

There was a question asked about the supply of tourist information for travel agencies. The Department makes tourist promotional material available to all local travel agencies as well as to agencies in the United States that are located in our market areas - that is to say, for example, agencies that are active in the promotion and retailing of travel in the province of Manitoba. I am as enthusiastic as the Honourable Member for Churchill about the tourist potential of the great north, and we certainly will work towards the development of the tourist potential of this part of the province.

I would like to say that I will undertake to have the department check with the federal Department of Transportation regarding the possible use of surplus buildings at Brochet, and departmental personnel will assess the suitability of these buildings for some recreational and tourist use. I am pleased to advise the member for Swan River and some of the other members that have spoken on this today, that a start will be made this year on the cons truction of a public lookout tower on Baldy Mountain.

This facility will be finished in time for the public to view the surrounding countryside during our Centennial year from this unique vantage point.

In reply to the Honourable Member for Fort Garry, I can advise him that, since taking office, I have not yet set any new priorities which affect the current year' s spending estimates, and I recall that - I know he stated this jokingly; I think it was the Honourable Member for Fort Garry, about the mosquitoes and the black flies, I have been thinking about that and I think that perhaps we could probably get together som ehow and work out a plan where we could have a mosquito or black fly contest over there, and maybe in the process one would eliminate the other and maybe we will get away from having all these mosquitoes and flies, and I do believe it is a problem.

I am not trying to make a joke out of it. I am just as serious about it as you are, because I know it is a problem. Now what our department can do in this respect I don' t know, but I think per}laps we will try and do something to and exterminate these insects over there. I can assure the member that very close attention also to another question he asked is being paid to all aspects of the recommendation contained in the TED Commission Report.

In this regard, I am pleased to announce that, since the report was made, major hotel develop ments particularly in the city of Winnipeg have taken place, and these will provide a great amount for much needed additional convention facilities. I also would like to add here that this department of course will try to encourage the full use of these facilities, and I might say that we are not only looking at this from just Winnipeg only.

I know this is the largest center at which you can hold larger conventions, but we are also looking into other areas of the province of Manitoba and other centers to establish such facilities as well in the future, maybe not on such a large scale but to be able to accommodate some smaller conven tions in some other areas of the province as well. There were several other ques tions asked today. I think I could possible answer some of the questions here in regard to Baldy Tower, which I have already. I might say there is a 40 foot viewing tower being constructed there.

As far as the Asessi ppi Park is concerned, we are also planning things in that area, so that in the Centennial park, which will be opened next year, certain facilities are being constructed there as well. In reply to the question insofar as the member for Roblin enquired about a parkland board, which is in the Dauphin area, the Department of Tourism and Recreation has worked with the parkland people in preparing a study on the possibilities in that particular area.

Insofar as the Interlake area is concerned, insofar as the Hecla Island is concerned - I think that the Honourable Member for Ass iniboia asked the question. There were public meetings held in that area and I want to say to the honourable member that as far as the advisory boards are concerned, they were consulted and there was no real objection coming from anyone there. There may be one or two but nothing of a major variety. I think that everyone is pretty well satisfied in the area that this is a good thing. Thank you. MR.

CHAIRMAN: (T he remainder of Resolution 92 was read and passed. ) Resolution No. 93 - 2, (a) (1) -- passed. The Honourable Member for Lakeside.

538 September 8, 1969 MR . ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I don't know whether this is the proper place to say just a few word. I did intend to speak to the estimates just very briefly to congratulate the Minister on the assumption of this portfolio and congratulate the branch and the department in itself. It's a department that is coming into its own and flexing its muscles , and quite rightly so , and I think the Minister will have an exciting portfolio to administer in the coming year .

Two or three concerns that I have and I'd like to mention just briefly, is that we've heard a great deal about recreational potential, parks potential and so forth, particularly from the point of view that we in this province may not always be fully cognizant of the recreational potential in those undeveloped portions of our province as of the moment, and it has led us to , in some cases, a position where it would appear that we are very quickly dissipating our physical resources , our natural resourc es, from this particular point of view, this point of view that's becoming more and more important in our society, that is pleasure and recreation in the outdoors, in our natural surroundings, and I think -- I don't particularly share that view.

I think, as a Manitoban, we can count our blessings in the wide-ranging and the tremendous scope of work that's still to be done and in fact is there to be done, if indeed our will and our resources in terms of dollars and cents, and others , go along with it.

But I was wondering whether or not the Minister wouldn't consider taking under advise ment a suggestion to map out and project into the future, you know, the kind of developments that are quite within the bounds of reason and realms of possibility to do.· We know in many other areas this is being done and it's only prudent to do so, and I have no doubt that the branch, the Parks Branch, or the whole department has this within their capable staff and do project their plans somewhat in the future, but I would think it would serve a purpose as a philosophy of the department, guidelines , goals for the department, that these become more widely known, not from the point of view of then being in a position to bring pressure to bear on the part of individual members or constituencies to have work done in that particular con stituency or for that particular area, but simply to enable us in a more calm and more re alistic manner to understand the scope of the resources before us and how best we can apply those dollars and cents that we vote each year to that necessary job.

I know, for instance, that we have had a considerable amount of emotional debate regarding another matter, and I' m referring to the Hydro-Electric development projects in the north, and a great deal of the debate centred around the thing that must concern you very much , Sir, that is, the possible loss of future recreational areas, potential loss of great recreational areas. I, myself, for reasons of my own, feel that it has been somewhat taken out of context and it's partly for this reason, and other reasons, that I'm making this suggestion.

We are aware of other major developments that in themselves create conditions that your department then can move in and take full advantage of. I refer, and you have already referred, to the developments at the AsessippiParkfollow ing the completion of the Shellmouth. Virtually every man-made construction jo b of some description or other that involves water or water conservation has this kind of possibility. If my friend's dam at Pembilier gets built, I know that he 's waiting for the kind of recreational potential that that particular project will have .

In other words, there is -- you know it's a far greater potential that's there, not just in those beautiful, natural settings that we have in this province, but also the ones that we create ourselves in our advances in one form or other of work that we do in the province.

So I make that one observation, suggestion to the Honourable Minister that I think it would serve both as a challenge to Manitobans to utilize and to make use of these resources , and also quite frankly, if I may suggest, it would assist you and your department in seeing to it that the necessary funds are channelled into this important area, to insure that a proper rate of development does take place. I think that it 's fair to say to the Minister that it's only in the relatively last year or so that the Department is really coming into its own, and I think they 've done a marvelous jo b.

We take some pride of course in the ·fact that we were respons ible in divorcing it from other departments as it was always appended to , and is now a de partment of its own in its own right , and I make this suggestion too to you in the sense, in the sincere hope that it would be helpful in the setting of greater prestige and greater priorities for your department. Now permit me, Mr . Chairman, to mention one constituency matter while I' m up and it's -- again I may be out of order .

I am very much aware of course of the program that he announced some time ago with respect to Hecla Island . . . full agreement with it. I would

--------- -------------------------------- September 8, 1969 539 (MR.

ENNS cont• d.) . . . . . want to indicate to the Minister, and I know that he is probably aware of it, that there is also a west side of the Interlake, and while our friends in the depart ment , for whom I have a great deal of respect, will argue that unfortunately the same base isn't there for the kind of developments , recreational developments , that some of the local inhabitants would like to see take place, that part of the country is changing too , and it 's changing partly because of the action that I •ve taken and the action that is being continued very vigorously by your deskmate, and I'm referring to the construction of Manitoba's most im portant highway, No. 6 Highway, which I say in all due deference, it will be the most important highway.

It's my good fortune that I happen to live on the same highway so that I have no quar rel with the priorities of the Minister of Transportation on that score, But, more seriously, it is going to channel into the western portion of the Inter lake through. the region of my friend from St. George, through the communities of Lundar, St.

Laurent and St. knbr oise and down through there, a tremendous amount of traffic , traffic that is going both ways, traffic that has a 400 or 500-mile, or 600-7 00-mile trip to make, which I would suggest will very appreciably alter what the specialists refer to as the base for possible or potential development of the kind of facilities that you, Sir, are in charge of, and so I make a plea for consideration being given, particularly in the FRED Program, and I know that there is some concern expressed by FRED boards , the development boards , about the fact that so much of the dollars allocated und er this program are being invested in the Hecla Island area, I would have to, if I may, you know, rise to the defence of that project in so much that it was very early and very clearly identified as a major area of concern by the local residents and by the local boards at that time , and this is no sudden or surprise program in any way.

This was always part and parcel of the development of the Inter lake and it was always recognized that the major input in terms of recreational dollars would be in the Hecla Island area.

But, since that time the department has been doing an excellent job in many smaller endeavours; camp sites , roadside parking facilities and camping facilities , the development of smaller beaches , encouragement of these kind of facilities, and I couldn't let your estimates pass, Sir, without indicating to you that, as the Member for Lakeside, I surround another lake, namely, Lake Manitoba, and it is richly endowed with a number of Manitoba 's finest beaches and will soon be also bordered by this very important arterial throughway in this province, north-s outh High way No . 6, that could quite appreciably change the flow or the pattern of traffic, and that for the Minister to take under advisement the concerns in that area with respect to building the kind of facilities that our people would like to see.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. BURTNIAK: . . . question in regard to the statement that some of our plans should be distributed among all the members well in advance. Do I take it that this is what you meant ? Our priorities and what have you? MR. ENNS: No, I don't really mean, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister -- I think it 's quite in order; I don't really suggest any basic difference than what the procedure has been up to now in the sense that you indicate to us through your estimates those projects that you have the capacity to do in any given year.

But I am -- well, what I'm really saying is that I think - you know, you are to some extent, you're a promotional department , promotional from Manitoba's point of view, and I feel that we have allowed ourselves through another matter to leave the impression here that we are just about at the end of the rope with terms of develop ment. Now I' m speaking overly- sensitive . This is the impression, for instanc e, that one gets when one reads through the debates on whether or not we can afford to flood South Indian Lake, and I don't wish to bring that great debate into these estimates .

But I'm suggesting to you seriously that the work that's available to us at hand will keep your department busy for the next 50 or 100 years, and the work that we are continually making for your department in the man-made projects that we build at some of our major water conservation structu res and so forth, will crea te potential developments for your department that you're not aware of at this particular moment.

And in that sense, a projection generally, not in terms of letting us know or what hav e you, but a forward-looking cataloguing or projection of the department 's future with respect to this kind of development. This is really all that I have to say. Now maybe this is available in some form or other. I think it should receive more notoriety if it is .

I think Manitobans should know that we are under a very active course of preserving for future Manitobans and all Canadians and indeed our American friends, many many thousands of acres of wilderness in their natural state, some not in their natural state but made very very-

540 September 8, 1969 (MR. ENNS cont'd.) . . . . . comfortable and very inducive to vacationing and so forth, by man made means. This is th'Ol kind of suggestion that I in::.plied. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland, MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, I didn't get around to speaking during the time that members were addressi ng the Honourable Minister under his salary. i, too, wish to congratu late the new Minister in his taking over this important portfolio, and I do hope he is successful in bringing about greater recreation to the people of Manitoba.

Likewise, I want to extend con gratulations to his staff for the good work that they are doing. It seems to me that his department and the Department of Natural Resources do have a lot in common and sometimes you are in a quandary as to whether you should bring forth a certain item under his department or that of the Natural Resources Department. I am particularly interested in the matter of the Pembina and the Pembilier Dam that has been under consideration for some years .

It started quite a few years ago and an international joint commission was set up at that time to study the whole development of that Pembina River Basin, and while most of this work was done under the Department of Natural Resources I feel that the Department of Tourism should have a particular interest in this matter and that the Honourable Minister should certainly get together with the Minister of Natural Resources in this whole thing because the Pembina Dam and the Pembilier Dam in the United States , when these are constructed, cer tainly will bring about lakes that will provide a lot of activity in the matter of recreation, which is badly needed in the southern part of this province because we find that people have to travel quite dista!J.ces.

The Whites hell and both the Riding Mountains are quite aways away, and as a result we find many people going across the line to the U. S. to Detroit Lakes and other areas, which provide them with the necessary facilities , and I feel that if this development would take place on the Pembina that we would not only keep a lot of our people in our province, spend our money in our province, but also would attract many U. S. people into Manitoba, especially around the southern area.

I think we should do everything in our power to speed up the process and get these dams built, and I do hope that the Minister will consult and also get in contact with the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources and try and push this thing that it will pro ceed. If I understand correctly from the press in the United States , North Dakota, periodicals that I get, apparently the U.

S. government is now more interested in proceeding with this mat ter, probably more so because of the flooding that took place this spring, and that they will proceed on the basis of helping and assi sting the flood matter and flood protection. This would certainly also help in the matter of flood protection for the people in southern Manitoba who have been experiencing difficulty in past years and especially this year again. The Pembina will overflow, especially in the Gretna area, and then will overflow into Manitoba and cause hardship and damage to the farmlands in that area.

Even the customs office was out of opera tion for several days this last spring because of a large washout on that highway that comes right to the border at Gretna, and I feel that we should try and hurry this thing along. The expenditures , the total expenditures are not that large that they cannot be under taken jointly by this government and the Federal Government, and I feel that we should proceed.

Not only will it provide flood protection to a large degree, it will provide recreational facilities; it will provide water for drainage so that the canning crops can be produced more favourably and in better quality and quantity, and so that they can be irrig ated and watered at the right time. I feel that this is a very worthy project and that we have been dragging our feet too long in this matter. I tabled an Order for Return during the last sessi on but because of the election I never got the Order. I've resubmitted it now and I do hope that we will get information on this up to date on the whole matter.

But I'm sure that the honourable ministers have the in formation before them and that they know better what the situation is and I feel that we should try and hurry this matter along because the province would definitely benefit in these many ways and areas. The only facility available to them in southern Manitoba is that the dam at Morden, the P. F. R. A. dam that was built there some years ago and where they've created the small lake, Lake Minnewasta. This is in my opinion a very small facility yet it is providing some recre ational facilities .

But I feel that we need more than that in southern Manitoba, and when we spend large amounts in other areas of the province, I feel that a better portion should be made available to the people of southern Manitoba as well.

September 8, 1969 541 MR . CHAIRMAN: (2 (

a) to 2 (

c) were passed. ) 2 (d) -- MR . FROESE: Mr . Chairman, ... what was the money used for in past years and why is it discontinued? MR. BURTNIAK: I'm sorry , Mr. Chairman, I can't give you the answer to that one , not at the moment, but I could find out for you and let you know tomorrow . MR. CHAIRMAN: 2 (d) -- passed. Res olution 94 - 3 (a) -- passed; (b) -- passed; (c)- MR . SHERMAN: Mr .

Chairman, I wonder if I could just take one moment to direct a question to the Minister under this particular reso lution, and I thank him for his attention to the questions that I raised when I spoke on these estimates the other day and his attention to the questions raised by members of this Party in general earlier in the consideration of these estimates.

But I just would like to ask him whether he can advise us as to whether his depart ment is giving consideration to a trade and convention centre and the need for such in the Pro vince of Manitoba, not necess arily in the Metropolitan area of Greater Winnipeg although it would seem that from the point of view of accommodation and other facilities that perhaps the metropolitan area would be the most logical place.

But in view of the fact that the convention industry has become such a major revenue-producing industry in all parts of North America and in view of the specific geographic location of this province of ours , I submit that considera tion of a major trade and convention centre certainly is a priority item for all of us , and I wonder if the Minister can assure us or reassure us that his department is moving with all practical haste to cons ideration of development of this kind of a facility. MR . BURTNIAK: Well, Mr . Chairman, I think I partly answered that question in my remarks a while ago.

This is perhaps something that will be looked into much closer as we go along. I don't think I can give him a definite answer on this particular question right at the moment, except as I said before that we are looking at the possibility of something along those lines and this will be checked out as we go along. MR . CHAIRMAN: 3 (c)--passed. Res olution 94--pas sed. Res olution 95 - 4 (a)--passed; (b)--passed; (c)-- The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR . FROESE : Mr . Chairman, ... whether we could have a bre akdown of this item "Grants" of $166, 00 0. 00.

What communities have been benefitting and what is being proposed for this year. Who are going to be the beneficiaries ? MR . BURTNIAK: Yes , I' ll supply you with the information. MR . HARDY: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I might refer back to . MR. CHAIRMAN: That res olution has been passed already. MR . HARDY: Thank you. MR . CHAIRMAN: 4 (c)--passed; Resolution 95-- passed. Res olution 96 - 5-- MR. FROESE : Mr . Chairman, could we also have a list of bre akdown as to the acquisi tion of the land. Is it for one particular area only, or just what areas are being included ? MR . BURTNIAK: No, Mr .

Chairman, on that it's not only in one area. It takes in several areas: Falcon Lake, West Hawk Lake, Spruce Woods , Asessippi and so on. MR. CHAIRMAN: Res olution 96--passed. Res olution 97 - 6. The Honourable Member for Souris Killarney. MR . EARL McKELLAR (Souris-Killarney): Mr . Chairman, ... on this Resolution 97 , but first of all before I speak I'd like to congratulate the Minister on the way he's handling his estimates . Speaking of grants, I'd like -- just before I speak on "Grants and Miscellaneous," I'd like to mention I did not get up when we were dealing with parks .

In my area I was pleased to hear the progress of Spruce Woods Pro vincial Park which is in my area that's going to be officially opened next year. But I was wanting to know about Turtle Mountain Pr ovincial Park which is in a stage now of it's coming ahead. I was wondering when do you expect to open this park, Turtle Mountain Pr ovincial Park, how many years from now it will be opened. But my main point in rising, Mr .

Chairman, is on speaking on International Pe ace Gardens which comes under Grants, and this past Saturday we had our annual meeting at the International Pe ace Gardens at which we elected our officers for the coming year , and the former member for Brandon was re-elec ted as the Chairman of the Board and the former Member for Turtle Mountain was elected Chairman of the Ex ecutive Committee. In the estimates of this year we find $15, 000 for the International Peace Garden in your grants -- (Interjec tion) -- Yes , in our estimates , and $5 0,0 00 for highway improv ements, road improvements within that garden.

Now that's a total of $6 5, 000 for this past year . We are having difficulties in finding maintenance money for the International Pe ace Garden which

542 September 8, 1969 (MR. McKELL AR cont'd. ) . . . . . mostly has to come from the four levels of government, both North Dakota, the United States Government, the Canadian Government and our own government, and I would hope that if you have time this fall, Sir, that you might get a chance to go down· there and have a look at the International Peace Garden and talk to the superintend ent who can best advise you as to what their problems might be .

This past year there has been over 300, 000 people - 300 , 000 tourists come in to the International Pe ace Gardens and part of this growth has come from the increased numbers that are attending the music camp and the increased numbers who are attending athletic camps sponsored by the Royal Canadian Legion. And I must say the Royal Canadian Legion are planning a new building which is going to be built on the American side of the border this com ing year and which will look after their needs during their athletic camp which takes in three weeks .

It will be a wonderful building, I saw rough plans , and I think a building which members of the Royal Canadian Legion will be very proud of. At the pres ent time the Order of the Eastern Star are busy building-- the contractor is building a building worth $80 , 000 right on the formal area at the west side, west part of the formal area, and this building will be completed on the 31s t of October and opened in the com ing year.

We are also -- the plan is going ahead for the building of a peace tower just a short distance west of the Eastern Star Chapel and this will cost in the neighbourhood of a million dollars which we're hoping to get a fair share from .each of the four governments involved i:J. the operation of this garden. At the pres ent time, plans are going ahead but they've been at a standstill due to the passing of sufficient monies from the United States Government. All four levels of government are involved -- involved or well known with this proj ect because they're always contacted on the various needs within the Garden.

Your Director of Parks, Sir, is a member of the Board of Directors , Mr. Danyluk. He 's on the Board of Directors and also on the Executive. So I can assure you he will keep you in touch of the various needs within the Garden. I think that's all I have to say, Mr . Chairman, on this particular subject, and when the estimates come around again in February or March we'll deal with this further. Thanks very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: Res olution No. 97--passed. That completes the Department of Tourism and Recr eation. I believe that the next department is the Department of Youth and Education, Page 28.

Res olution No . 103. The Honourable Minister of Youth and Education. . . . . . continued on next page

,-�-------------- 1 I September 8, 1969 543 MR. MILLER: Well I hope the thundering on the desks will be as loud when I sit down as it was .when I stood up. -- (Interjection) -- That's right, it'll be a long long time. Mr. Chairman, I am particularly pleased of course that I was chosen to head up one of the major departments of this government, the Department of Youth and Education, which as you all kn�w spends a greater amount of money than any other department and I'm quite aware that it's one area where I don't think you can possibly win.

It 's a field which encroaches on and is of intereh to everyone in the province, impinges upon everybody in the province, and for that reaso� and because it's an on-going process it's an area where you can never sit back, close your �rms and say, well the job is done . What I'm introducing today of course are the estimates as were introduced last spring. We ha(ve to reintroduce them, as has been mentioned earlier , because they were not formally passed at the last session. They did receive something like ten or eleven hours of debate and they � ent into great detail on them .

Unfortunately, we never went into third and final reading. When I took over the department I found that the staff were very co-operative. They went out of;their way to make it comfortable for a neophyte Minister to try to take hold and I must admitlthat I have not yet succeeded in that regard. It's a department with so many branches and so many ramifications that it's almost impossible to grasp the full implications very quickl y, particularly when a session intervenes. I 'm very happy to announce that Dr.

Lorimer , the D�puty Minister who has been away from Manitoba and Canada since late May, returned last Tuesday and I certainly expect that with his return I will have even greater opportunity to get to know the department , to get to know the details of the department. But I want to express to him , publicly, and through him to the various people who took over in his absence, the fact that they got behind me as I said in every way they could.

They made themselves available any time I wanted them ; they came forward with all the possible assistance that they were capable of; and to this extent they made my life a little more easier, a little more bearable, and with Dr. Lorimer's return I hope we'll get down to a smooth and normal operation of the depar,tment. I There is not much more I can add to t he se particular estimates because, as I say, they were debated earlier this year .

If there are specific questions which arise and which members wish to know details on I could try to find out through the department if these answers are available, but I don't propose really to go into any great speech on the whys and wherefores of thesel estimates . As I say, the estimates were part of the total budgeting of the former govern ment . They introduced them ; they were debated; they were discussed; and in the final analysis they \lid pass committee. So, with those few words , Mr.

Chairman, I want to simply formally introduce the estimates and hopefully get the co-operation of the House to recognize that debate has taken place, that these estimates that are being brought before you are identical in every aspect to the e�timates that were brought in last spring and therefore I can really see no advantage nor any �eed to at this time go into a long explanation or a long review on the program itself. Any debates are of course in Hansard, recorded in Hansard, and those members who were not here can �asily read up on them. They make very interesting reading I'm sure.

I'm sure the Memper for Riel has been marking his Hansard the last few days , but for me to even attempt to go' through all the details at this stage I think would be unnecessary and quite presumptuous sine� the estimates aren't mine in the first place. 1 So with these few remarks, Mr. Chairman, I am bringing forward these estimates for the cbnsideration of the Ho use . I MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Riel. 1 MR . CRAIK: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to say a few words on the estimates before we get into the detail on them.

First of all, I'd like to wish the new Minister of Youth and Education well jin his portfolio. He has taken on an onerous responsibility which he has indicated that he realizes . I think that the department which he heads up is the most important of the government departments from a number of points of view. That might be a biased opinion but I thik he'll find quite general agreement on that statement. I think that the portfolio that he has taken is one of those portfolios where the pressures on the Minister come from many diret tions and from many pressure groups.

Pr obably fourth or fifth in line is the pressure of the Legislative Assembly itself, because there are , with education being a very specialized ende�vour and with it having many specialty organizations such as trustees, teacher s, parents' organization, and in this day and age students' organizations , the forces of the Legislative !

544 September 8, 19 69 '(MR. CRAIK cont'd. ) . . . . . Asse mbly itself is probably about fifth in line at the Minister. I think certainly the estimates which the Minister has introduced, I don't question that they are the same, and I think that it would have been intere sting to have heard from the Minister about some of the long-term possibilities that he has in mind for Education.

He has mentioned that Hansard contains a good deal of information and about the debate on the estimates, and I think that probably it was interes ting that he brought this up because most of the debate came from the side of the House opposite to where he now sits and a good deal of it came from he himself, but this hasn't been mentioned in his address to the estimates at this time. It would have been interesting, I think, to have had some of that brought back.

However , I don't intend to pres ent him with the ideas which he had at that time about the so- called sub terranean program, $2, 000 home owner exemptions, etc. , some of which probably were repeated in the rec ent election campaign. I did have one that has been brought to the attention of the House in the form of a private members' res olution, which was the petition of the Manitoba Association of Students, and there has been some difficulty in having it debated.

It is there not because I agreed with the content of the proposals that are discussed in the res olution but because this was a specific res olution that was more than just a campaign promise. It was a res olution which was signed by a number of the members of the Cabinet of the government and a number of the members of their caucus. It involved promises to a group of young people attending university in respect to their university fees . I don't think that the university students in asking that this now be given attention did in fact twist the petition, as was suggested by the Minister of Education.

I think it was most untimely for the Minister to have made this statement. I think that what is at issue here is first of all that this was a campaign promise with a difference because it was very specific, it was signed, it was signed by no other than the Attorney-General of this province, which must open up to question what is the value of a signature, particularly when it comes from someone who is the Attorney-General of the province let alone the Minister of Education. But that itself is not the main concern here.

What is of concern is that this was made to a group of our youth, and for years adults have been searching around wondering what the problem is with youth, assuming of course that there was a problem with youth.

And in some areas there is a problem , and the problem is that youth by and large has matured a little earlier than they did in a previous generation, or generations , and they have come to question to a very large extent the ideals and the intent and the validity of the stated intentions of our adult generation, and here we have agroup of youth who took at face value the signing of a docu ment by a group of politicians who in turn have turned their back on it. The amount of money wasn't great.

It was significant- there's no question about that- money doesn't come that easily, but nevertheless, in its wisdom or otherwise, the government decided not to act on it and out of all the promises which they made this is one of the ones, even though I may not agree with the promises they made, this is one of the ones that I would have thought they would have felt duty bound held to honour, primarily because it was made to a group of youths, the group that is looking for leadership, looking for ideals in the adult generation, and particularly ideals to come from the leaders of its government.

So I think it's a breach of promise that's been committed. I think it has been a very very bad one. It could be made to a group of adults and you might be able to have them understand why, but here it's been made to the youth of our soc iety and for some reason or other the gov ernment has decided to turn tail on them and go the other direction.

At the same time they found $350 ,0 00 in their supplemental estimates for Industry and Commer ce, and to my knowledge there has been no requests from industry that said that the government should put more money into the Department of Industry and Commerce, but $350 ,0 00 has been committed in the supplemental estimates for that purpose. But a little more than that amount, probably $700, 000 would have fulfilled the government's promise to the youth of the Province of Manitoba and indicated to them that they could take at face value the promise of a government .

I do note - and we're not dealing with the supplemental estimates , I suppose we will come to it -that there is a sum in for student aid which I suppose may help out to some extent, small perc entage-wise, in the aid to university students. Nevertheless , it is a small amount and it is one-tenth of the amount that would have been required to fulfil that written campaign promise. I think it's a very serious matter . This is one , whether I have an opportunity to debate it or not in the res olution, that has to be considered by this House. I think it is a very

i SepteTIJ!ber 8, 1969 545 i (MR. <J:RAIK cont•d. ) . . . . . serious breach of promise, serious because it is in a breach with that generation that is looking for guidance particularly from their government. I1 would like to mention another area respecting more directly the estimates and that is the ar� a that is lacking in the government' s program, and that is the three specific areas that do deal directly with money one way or another. First of all, the government policy in regard to the kdministration of the publ ic school system.

I feel that the publ ic is ready, the system demands that financial -- the financing system has shifted and the proof is beyond doubt that a more �pecific and scientific method of monitoring school board budgets is a neces sity in the Providce of Manitoba. I think it is a necessity in provinces other than Manitoba, and in fact other provinces are indicating their steps in that direction now.

Now I speak specifically of the proposals that are well-known to some here, that were made 9Y myself at an earlier date, that was to provide for the supervision to some extent of public 1school finance budgets by the Public Schools Finance Board. The proposal that has been suggested by myself and was a policy that was stated, was that there would be review powers of all 1imblic school board budgets. There are no questions that there are efficiencies that can be gait ed from new and better methods of administering the public school board budgets.

Furth� rmore , with the province becoming more and more involved in the financing of the pub lic school system - and I haven't heard of one government with possibly the exception of that repre� ented by the Member for Rhineland that was not in favour of more financing of the public school i system from central sources - we do in fact know that there are school boards now that r!!ceive 80 perc ent of their financing from provincial sources. There are other boards that receive only 30 perc ent of their financing from the public treasury of the Province of Manitoba.

Nevertheless, these proportions are likely to be increased so that the :financing corneal more and more from the central government.

To hold the line alone in 19 70 I would n't be sur1Jrised but what it was going to cost a minimum of $10 million to be financed, pumped into the publ ic system by the provincial government, that is without any drastic changes along the !id es of that mentioned by the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. rith that, I think there is no question that a further degree of control or monitoring or guidance - which is acceptable now to the majority of the school boards of Manitoba, they want it, th�y come looking for it in some cases but usually not until they're in trouble - that it is high t�me and we've gone past the time when this should have been instituted, but the govern ment in its wisdom, or otherwise, has said: No, there won't be any; certainly not along the lines imposed by the previous government.

So now they're faced with the situation of, as the I Minister says, the largest budget of the provincial government, with a commitment that is going to lead them into larger budgets , and they have backed away from any form of financing -- fui'fher supervision of the financing of the school system. I think that the school system we have with the boards having a degree of autonomy, whichlthey do have, has been a system that has served Manitoba very well and is probably a system that can recommend itself to many other parts of the world. I don't think that the autondmy of the boards was in any way in question.

I think that the public wants it - further superyision; I think we need it from a financial point of view.

I know there are systems that the central government itself is on in terms of program budgeting that could serve the public syste� very well but it's going to require some changes, and since this is now a big business where grants alone from the provincial government have gone up six-fold in 10 years to the publi d school system, have gone up between 11 and 12 times to the universities over the period of 10 years, that we might as well face the facts of life: we are in a professional league in the admirltstration of education and we' ve gone past the time when more sophisticated methods of I budget programming must be instituted, and I can't understand why the government has not indicated to the public of Manitoba that they intend to do this. !T he provincial government of Saskatchewan indicated only in the last two or three weeks that t"IJ.ey are going to ask school boards to have their budgets prepared and in by late October of the1 year prec eding the fiscal year which the school boards run on.

They have also said that they would be less than candid if they didn't say now that they were going to have to insti tute � form of cost control techniques in the public education system. This needn't necessarily in any way inhibit the quality of education. We have achieved a high standard in Manitoba and this �ill continue to be a high standard. There are unfortunately those interests that feel that institutionofmonitoringof school cost control will in some way endanger. It doesn't do this at I all; i � needn't do it. It simply says that an order of priorities must be established in education I

546 September 8, 1969 (MR . CRAIK cont•d. ) ..... as it is in any other occupation, whether it's private or public. The second point I wanted to make is that I feel that bargaining deadline dates between the trustees and the teachers is something that will have to be further considered by the government. It has been side-stepped out of hand, as the other proposals that I mentioned have been by the government. I have the fear here that the government may be attempting to buy a little time to have a look at this further.

I feel also that possibly the teachers of the province feel that this is aimed specifically at them. I think it is unfortunate if they have . There are a number of teachers in the government caucus, quite a large number of them, and I am sure that you will have discussions about this. I trust sincerely that they will not assume that to set a bargaining deadline date is in any way a detriment to the teaching profession. It is not intended to be. I think that the arguments that are used against deadline dates , and the main argument is the fact that you can predict budgets exactly enough without them.

I think that there is example enough or indication enough in the supplemental estimates to indicate that you can't in fact do this, because even with the Civil Service Commission you see here where you have $4 million in the supplemental estimates to cover for a settlement which was not what was predicted by the government of the day, and therefore you can see that even on bargaining with one unit that the government was not able to estimate closer than $4 million on a settlement. Now the payroll of the school system is much much larger than the government services.

Government service I think probably - I haven't looked at the estimates - but I would assume that probably the payroll is around $60 million. The payroll of the public school system I would hazard a guess totals somewhere over $150 million or of that order all told. Now you can see the difficulty that you are in unless your budgets become more firm. The aim of having the bargaining deadline date I think rec o=ends itself because it is necessary for your central financing authority to have a pretty firm indication of co=itment by some time before the government brings down the Throne Budget, some time in February.

Furthermo re, your municipal governments must in turn have a firm budget so that they can indicate to their electorate, their taxpayers , what their tax bills are by the latter half of the first half of the calendar year . For 1his reason I think that with bargaining becoming more and more complex, with the list of bargaining items becoming longer and longer , that this is something that you are going to have to do.

Certainly I cannot express to you strongly enough in the interests of Manitobans in general the disappointment that the government has offhand chose to ignore all of the cost control items and the efficiency measures that were proposed by the previous government.

I think that the other item that the government will have to deal with, and probably is the most serious item from an administrative point of view, is the extreme dissatisfaction that is being felt by the school boards of the Province of Manitoba, because they find themselves having grown into being the custodians of a very very large business and finding themselves faced with administrative problems that it's not normal to have forced onto a part-time publicly elected body.

I think that that is at the crux of the dissatisfaction that exists among the trustees , and in this connection I think that one conclus ion that we can draw from it is that the status quo with regard to the administration of the public school system cannot be sustained. Some changes are going to have to be made. The changes may not be great, they may only be minor changes, but certainly there is going to have to be a degree of understand ing develop in the trustees and in the teachers alike.

It may have to come about through a seminar system or it may have to come about through an educative process of all parties in volved, and in this connection again I would hope that the government will establish some sort of a commissioner or a commission, or itself, to take upon itself the responsibility to see that many of the problems that seem to be bothering the administrators and trustees of our public school system are looked at and a pretty intensive study can be undertaken.

It is good enough to point to the Michener Commission in many instances and say that we have the pattern there, but I think you will find that many of the things that the Michener Co=ission had to look at have changed now. Many of the changes which they reco=ended have been made, but ed ucation has grown so rapidly that we have far exceeded even the reco=endations that were made as late as 196 4.

The basic problems lie in the field of the administration of education and much of it is associated with the bargaining process that the trustees find themselves involved in as a prime part of their occupation as trustees and which they find a high degree of dissatisfaction with - not all of them, but a very high proportion of

�-- --�- -- - -- ----- --- -- -- - - - - ---- ---:-- -- ---- SepteJber 8 , 1969 I 547 (MR. �RAIK cont'd. ) . . . . . them - and I think that again the only conclusion you can draw from i� is that the status quo that has existed in the administration of our public school system cannot 1be sustained. It is encouraging to see that there has been a degree of agreement be tween �he trustees and the teachers with regard to their regional bargaining in the Greater Winnipeg area. It would be helpful I think for the government to look at possible legis lative help a�ong these lines .

There is a degree of resentment against having something compulsory, and unquestionably there is , but unless there are some guidelines which are spelled out by legislative action it is doubtful if even the regional bargaining process will be very effective, so I trhst that the government will in fact look further at this possi bility.

I The other point that I wanted to make, or another point that I wanted to make was that with tHe Targets for Economic Development Report setting out a blueprint for the economic development of the province, I think it is rational that the government might well look at a parallel study on our manpower resource development in the province. We have traditionally looked! at education as something that was strictly developed at the demand and need of the students involved.

However, with the emergence of technical education in the province, and in caJada in fact, there is no question that the technical education field at least should to some extentibe tailored by the joint demands of not only the recipients, the students , but also by the ecpnomic requirements of the province.

TI.'he TED Report is probably notable in that they pretty well ignored how we trained the manp9wer to fulfil the demands that were going to be made if we were able to live up to the economic development that the report thought we would, and I think that if we are going to, we possiljly should be looking at a manpower resource development target for development that would iparallel this to indicate in fact whether we have the potential here to provide the support services for the long term economic development of the province.

We have gone part way towar�s that now, but unless we keep our eye on some target, particularly in the technical field, it is likely that we are going to have areas that are going to suffer because we are not providing the education and training for the manpower that wants to take it, but we are also probably going to find ourselves spending unnecessary sums of money in duplicating what a studedt may well be able to take even in another province.

And in this connection, if you carrylthis further, I in fact think that we could be well advised to embrace a policy whereby the federal authorities became the party responsible for post se condary education, particularly at thel university level, because university by and large has no relationship, the curriculum struc1jure has no relationship to the province in which it is located - and I should make an ex ception here or two, in Manitoba that is not entirely the case- but by and large there is no relati�nship between the courses which are offered at the university and the finance or eco nomic requirements of the province. !Furthermore, I think that if the Federal Government were to take this over we would find a: degree of equity in the fact that many of the products of the university, in some courses , we h�ve the very V';!St majority of them leaving the province to find occupations els ewhere.

Now �here is no point in us bemoaning the fact that such a high degree of our population leave the province after they graduate. That is exactly the way it should be , and until we have a comp}etely rounded economy this will continue to be that way. And there is no point in be moan�ng the fact that a certain industry hasn't developed to provide opportunity for that parti�mlar graduate. It is quite sensible for a person to graduate from a university and go elsev.!here.

A student graduating from the university has no more roots in Manitoba than they have anywhere else, and apart from the very basic desire for those of us here to keep them here,/ which we hope we could do, there is no real basic reason why a student coming out of the university should feel any tremendous commitment to stay in Manitoba if in fact his eco nomic opportunity lies els ewhere .

I With this approach I think that we could focus our development in Manitoba with the dollats being limited the way they are going to continue to be, particularly with the announce ment� of the last few days, and I think a manpower target program could be one that could servJ us well from a long term point of view.

I would say that this was planned by the previ ous government but I won't say it in case the present government might feel that it wasn't a good program, so I am saying it now as a member on the opposite side of the House that for your !consideration I think the targets for manpower could be something that could well comnlement the TED Report and could serve Manitob

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-1-23
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 1st hansardpdf 23.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	39abd1222371e891760f24d4eee1e7321897e8ea

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