Volum e 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND iHIRTY~SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, JUNE 8,1976 Number 79 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE .GERALD RYAN OTTENHEJMER

June 8,1976. Tape If 3265 AHII 1 The House met at 2.00 P.M. Hr. Speaker in the chair. MR. SPEAKER Order, please: STAIMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER Ron. Minister of Tourism. NR. T.'V. HICKEY Mr. Speaker, I wish to inform the House that after review of all submissions made with reference to the white paper on snowmobiles and ail-terrain vehicle legislation, government has adopted a set of regulations which will come in force as soon as they receive the final legal drafting and gazetting. These regulations cover the following ppints: All snowmobiles and all-terrain vehicles must be registered.

Registration fees are as follows: Hotorized snow vehicle, $5.00,which shall be valid for the life of the vehicle. Motorized two­ wheel trail bike , $S.OO,which shall be valid for the life of the vehicle. Motorized all-terrain. vehicle , $20.00 anually. Change of ownership of a vehicle requires a transfer of registration. This transfer shall cost $3.00.

No person shall operate a vehicle between sunset and sunrise unless such vehicle is equipped and there is effective operation adequate head lights, tail lamps as well as amber reflectors on the front of the vehicle, red reflectors at the rear, and an adequate braking system A person may drive a vehicle across a highway only at such points where the operator has not less than a hundred yards visability in both direction~ along the highway. A person may drive a vehicle along a highway , onlywhen by reason of storm or blizzard the road is incapable of being used by motor vehicles.

No person under the age of thirteen years shall drive a vehicle unless the operator is under the supervision of a personnineteen years of age or over. _Every vehicle shall be equipped with a noise muffler or noise reducing equipment which shall be kept in good working condition. No person shall operate a vehicle in such a manner as to constitute a danger to other operators or to other individuals engaged in other outdoor recretational pursuits. No person shall operate any all-terrain vehicle except under the authority of a permit issued by the Minister or a person authoriz~d by the Minister. No person shall 10~~7

June o,l'!to. Tape II 3265 Alll/2 11R. T.V. HICKEY operate any vehicle in a area designated by the Lieutenant-Governor in council as a restricted area without a permit issued by the Hinister or person authorized. These regulations shall not apply in Labrador, except for.the following communi ties: Labrador City, Wabush, Churchill Falls, Goose Bay, Happy Valley and North West River. These regulations shall be enforced by the Newfoundland Constabulary, The Royal Canadian Haunted Police, the Forest Rangers and Game Wardens.

I should point out that the white paper, generated considerable comment in the areas of insurance, safety, helmets,safety equipment generally and controlled areas. With reference to these particular points I wish to state that the insurance will be at the discrection of the owner , as well as the use of helmets or other safety equipment. I feel that the provisions of restricted areas will afford the protection necessary to safeguard our enviorment and will e!iminate the necessity of controlled areas.

I wish also to inform the House that special provision has been gl.ven to allow municipalites to enact their own regulations. The Motorized Snowmobile And All Terrain Vehicles Act is being an1ended to allow for this, if that is necessary, Mr. Speaker, I am not quite sure that an amendment is requiredvyet, it is being looked into by the Dept. of Justice. A pamphlet will be prepared and distributed in the very near future, which will contain the tegulat]ons and other information related to The Motorized Snowmobile And All-Terrain Vehicle~ Act.

Although this pamplet vlill undoubtely ans .. er many of the questions posed by the general puhli.c, I solicit the help of all hon. members of this !louse in acquaintin~ their constituents with the full meaning, intent, anu e Efect of this significent legislation to ensure that all our people are adequately informed. In this connection~Mr. Speaker,a copy of the regulations~in addition to a copy of the act under which the regulations are made 1is being distributed to each hon member. 1025S !I

June 8,1976 . Tape il 3265 Al!i/3 MR. NEARY There are controlling areas- }ffi. T.V. HICKEY No controlled areas, there are restricted . There are two restricted areas in the province so far -two: The Avalon Wilderness Area and the Central Wilderness Area. }ffi. SPEAKER MR. ROWE The han. member for Trinity . -Bay de Verde. Mr. Chairman, commenting on the Ministerial statement, he listed off a great number of regulations or points in the statement and I really have not had time to put my thoughts together on it.

However I would like to point out that any regulations that are brought into this province that have as its main requirement the safety of the individuals running these particular machines and the people in various communities, and takes into consideration the protection of the environmentand the wildlife in this province, have to be accepted and have to be supported by all members of this House. I do not know how far the regulations will go . in protecting individual operators of these snowmobiles and the public at large, and private property artd crown proper tv and the wildlife of this province.

I sincerly hope that the regulations will go a long way in doing all of these particular things. The Minister mentioned in particular that these snowmobiles will be registered for a certain fee and he gave different fees for different types of vehicles • All-terrain vehicles , I believe he mentioned 1 were something like $20.00 as compared to a snowmobile which is $5.00. The only comment that I got on . that Sir, is that- the registration fee is for the life of the vehicle, is it,not for renewal each year? MR. HICKEY Snowmobiles? MR. ROWE Yes. ~C~ ~nowmcbilea,right.Except all-terrain vehicles\$20.00 annually. MR.

ROWE Yes, but the snowmobile is a $5.00 registration for' the life of the vehicle. Well,Sir,I am glad it is for the life of the vehicle, because for people who are living in the northern parts of Newfoundland in particular,they depend on the snowmobile as we do 10259

Tape II 3265 [or a car, .1\nd vH2 are basically paying vehicle registration fees and lLc.:enses_, we course to help maintain our highways and th:!.s sort of tillrrp, arrd there is nothing to maintain for 10260

June 8, 1976 Tape no. 3266 Page 1 - mw Mr. Rowe. the transport and movement of snowmobiles. So this should not be too much of a hardship. The minister also mentioned the safety regulations that he wishes to impose with respect to the operation of snowmobiles after sunset and before sunrise which I think we have to agree with. t am not so sure, Sir, about this business of the age limit of thirteen years of age and over.

Now the reason I would like to mention that is because a lot of people, whether they are using the snowmobile for recreational purposes or because they need it the same way as people would need a motor bike, a motorcycle or two wheel bike or car, the. fact of the matter is that there are very responsible ten, eleven and twelve year. olds, for example - MR. NEARY: MR. ROWE: You better be careful your colleague there does not - Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for LaPoile is most anxious to jump on anything that he sees might be a slight difference of opinion between any two members in this House.

Now7 Sir, I am going to speak my own mind whether the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) or the Leader 6f the Opposition likes it or does not like it. And if the caucus does not like what I am saying, I will be given the same treatment as the member for St. John's East and the member for St. John's North in due course. Now I am raising a legitimate question - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ROWE: Could I have order, please, Mr. Speaker. I am trying to raise a point and I am serious about it, and I am sincere about it.

The point that I was making was this, is that there are some very irresponsible seventeen, eighteen, twenty-one year olds-,and indeed thirty and forty year ·olds, irresponsible. I have seen them operating snowmobiles in a way which is very dangerous to themselves and private pDoperty and any people who may be in the vicinity. As far as some of the communities that depend on snowmobiles are concerned,I have seen younsters driving these machines with the greatest of skill and with the greatest of 10261

June 8• 1976 Tape no. 3266 Page 2 - mw Hr. Rowe. -- --- resporisibility. And I have seen families go on family outings, under the supervision of their parents, and with the kids driving these snowmobiles and doing it very responsibly. So I just question about this thirteen year age limit. I just raise the question, and I know it has got to be tried 1 it could be modified, the regulations can be modified next year or any other year, but I just raise this particular question. I was going to commend the minister for his comments on reckless behaviour and the restricted areas.

Now the restricted area business will be outlined in the regulations 1 I assume. And the minister suggested that it will not apply to Labrador. Now there are two points that I would like to make in respect to that, Mr. Speaker. Number one, there are places on the Island where people need to use snowmobiles, and I can think specifically, with my own experience, of the Great Northern Peninsula.

Now I am not that familiar with other areas of the Province, but I am sure there are even a few places in Central Newfoundland and Southern Newfoundland and all over the Province where people in the Winter depend upon snowmobiles. And I think the minister should look very carefully at makinr, exceptions for certain areas of the Island part of our Province. Now the minister mentioned Labrador City, Wabush, Goose Bay, Churchill Falls, I believe, Happy Valley and North West River.

North West River I would question, having that as a restricted area, because unless things have changed drastically in the last few years I think North West River is one area where they certainly need to use snowmobiles. The little community of North West River itself, the Tndian side of the community, and the white man's side and the rskf~o part of the community, I am sure they need to use snowmobiles in these particular areas. I am glad to see that a pamphlet will be prepared. 10262

June 8, 1976 Tape no.3266 Page 3 - mw Mll.. ROWE: And the rest of the notes, Sir, that I got here I cannot pick out. Oh, yes. Did the minister say that the use of head gear, helmets will be left to the discretion of the owner? Well is it not compulsory for an owner of a motorcycle to use head gear? MR.~IDEOUT: Yes. MR • ROWE: I think it is. And my own feeling - we have not discussed this in caucus, this is the first time I have heard of it.­ but my own feeling is that it should be compulsory to wear helmets when you are on a ski-doo . MR. NOLAN: In Labrador you were freeze to death. MR.

ROWE: In Labrador you would have to put on the wool mask, of course, and the helmet besides probably. MR. MURPHY: They ~ress for the weather up there. MR. ROWE: Yes, I know. No regulations, Mr. Speaker, can be perfect. But I commend the minister for the good points that he has spoken to in this ministerial statement. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROWE: And I have not critized the minister for anything.

I simply raised a few questions which I assume that he will take under consideration, and I do not know when the minister suggested this would be gazetted and in fact put into real force.Probably at some time he could indicate to the House when this would be enforced, because the regulations have to be made up an~ have to be gazetted . I commend the minister, Sir. ~R. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, nobody can question the right of the minister to draft regulations, because the House gave him that authority when it passed the act.

The act, as is usually the case, so in this case the act itself gave the minister the right to make regulations in conformity with the act. The regulations cannot contravene the act. The act gives the authority. However, no opportunity 10263

June 8, 1976 Tape no. 3266 Page 4 - rnw Mr. Smallwood. has been given the House whatsoever to debate these new regulations. When the House meets in the next session, in the Fall or in the coming Winter or Spring, within ten days of the House's meeting the minister must table the regulations, and then there will be an oppo~tunity for the House to debate the regulations in the debate on the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne. And there would be still other-even on the budget, it would be possible to debate these regulations.

But for the remainder of this session, unless someone wishes to go to the trouble to introduce a resolution on them, there will not be an opportunity to debate them. The minister does not expect that the House, merely hearing him read a prepared statement, and then having a few moments to ' look at the actual draft regulations, the House to be ready to debate them. So that these regulations will come in undebated. Now there is no comparison in the minister's statement, no comparison made by him with the regulations that he now proposes and the White Paper. He does not make the comparison.

He does not compare the proposals of the White Paper with the proposals in the new draft regulations, nor does he compare the draft regulations he has just given us with the objections that have been made in various parts of the Province. It would have been a verv useful thing if he had in his statement today dealt with the principal objections that had been made throughout the Province by responsible individuals and responsible groups, compared their objections with the regulations; what, if anything, he is doing in these regulations to meet any objections that had been made. He did not do that.

We do not know at the moment whether the regulations do in fact meet the legitimate and sensible objections that have been made by groups and organizations and responsible individuals throughout the Province. We do not know whether these objections have been met. Ma. NEARY: They have backed off - MR. SMAL~WOOD: Well, we do not know. If anyone remembers vividly what those objections were, and listened intently to the minister's 10264

June 8, 1976 Tape no. 3266 Page 5 - 1111o1 MR. SMALLWOOD: statement, then such an hon. member might see whether the minister,and the government in general, had backed off. Then again if any bon. member remembered vividly the points that were in the White Paper, and lis t ened intently to the minister's statement today, he would know whether the statement today of the proposed or the draft regulations are in confol!lllity or out of conformity with the White Paper. It is rather a pity. The regulations will now come into effect, because the minister 10265 ,.. ,..

June 8,1976. Tape II 3267 AHitl NR. SNALLWOOD having read them to the House, they will be gazetted. · Per s umaply they have passed cabinet or the Minister would not have been able to introduce them to the House. !laving passed cabinet, they will be gazetted and t ltey will become law. And it will not be till next spring, whert we are uebating the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne, we will be able to debate these regulations. But by then the Minister may or may not be thoroughly sick of them, depending on how well they work, depending on the successful , smooth operation of these regulations.

I hope they do work smoothly because ski-dooing, or snowmobiling has become'an occupation in Newfoundland of ab solutely staggering proportions. There must be anything between ten and twent y thousand ski-doos in Newfoundland at this moment. And a great many of them , ~re used for work in place of dogs. And a great many, even a l arger number)are used for straight recretation. And the recretational people, the people who use them for recretation are by far the most vocal. they are the people who will be heard from, much more than from those who use them as a sort of work horse or a sort of work dog.

So next spring we will see what will have happened. Now I myself hav e been the victim of a barrage of propaganda by Ski-doo opera torR. T have two sons , each with a ski-doo, I have about five grand-sons, each with a ski-doo, and I have all kinds of other re;J;atives and they go scouring around the country. And they are lmmensely and intensely concerne<l. And the Minister knows that they are only a dozen or so of thousands of N e ~~ foundlanders who l~ill be do"'Il. his neck if these regulat­ ions do not please them.

I do not know, I gathered there, as I lisened intensely, I gathered that you got to be within a hundred feet of a highway on a ski-doo. That sound s like utter insanity to me. It sounds like insanity, that the thousands of people with ski-doos must never go more than a hundred feet away from the highway. That cannot be true. MR •. RIDEOliT: Is that in the regulations? SO}IE HON. }fEMBER: No. ~1R. SMALLWOOD Hell it sounded like it. That is the trou,ble, you see. All we know is , we read the white paper, we heard the Minister 10266

June 8 ,19lo . :.,lTape II 326"/ AH //2 t1R. SHALLWOOD now, We do not know how the proposed regulations compare with the white paper. We do not know how the proposed regulations meet the objections that have been made. I hope the Minister is not joking about this one hundred feet away from the highways.

However, about one thing I am quite sure, the Minister being himself a very level-headed,honourable gentlemen, very level headed , very sensible, feet on the ground,and with various appeals to the public coming up from time to time, will be most eager ~pt to offend, and will be most eager to try to please the' largest possible number. And my guess must be that the regulations may be better than they sound. MR. SPEAKER MR. HICKEY The hon. Minister of Tourism. Hr. Speaker, I should respond to a couple of points for fear the wrong message would get out with regards to the regulations.

The statement indicated that a person crossing the highway had to have visability of a hundred feet or a hundred yards, I am not quite sure at the moment, in both directions. The statement did not indicate that you have to be a hundred feet or a hundred yards away from a highway , as you drove along parallel with it. The previous regulation was that you had to cross in a straight line and that you had to sort of walk the vehicle across and so on. My hon. friend the IUIIDber for Trinity-Bay de Verde, raised a couple of points 1Mr. Speaker~and one was in connection with Labrador.

I want to say to him that the regulations do not apply at all to the Northern section. In other words, they do not apply to people who use the vehicle as a means of livelihood, as a means of transportation, use it for hauling wood, as a means of livelihood or keeping themselves warm and so on. MR. NOLAN MR. HICKEY In :Labrador? We are very much aware of the fact that there are possibly a few communities on the Island we are well aware of this; I did not include anything,Mr. Speaker,in therregalations, because it requires some investigating.

One cannot just pick communities otit ·•of the air , or of the map and just list them as those regulations not applying. 10267

June 8,1976. Tape II 3267 AH/13 l1R. HICKEY And so I want to say to my hon. friend , indeed to all hon. members, that if there are conununities and if they know of communities where there is a case to be made, for this kind of situation 1 then we would be delighted to hear from them and we would gladly include them in our investigation of a few communities that we will be investigating. anyway. And we will be delighted to include them to determine if indeed the situation there warrants them being exempted from those regulations. With regards to the North West River area I agree with my hon.friend.

Some numbers of citizens in that area are using ski-doos for purposes other than recreation. However in this connection,Lagain the matter is open for discussion. We are flexible, we had to include the North West River, with regards to the regulations, just because it is an area where a r,reat deal of ski-dooing is done , purely from a recreational point of view. The hon. members will note that the main thrust of those regulations is for safety, for protection of private property, personal property, 'ln terms of the individuals themselves as well as the environment.

I certainly cannot agree with my hon. friend from Le Poile when he says we backed away. We have not backed away. The hon. member for Twillingate., who indicates that there was no comparsion made of the white paper with the regulations, welL the main point in the tvhi te paper and the main point of the regulations are contained in the statement today, but not all of them, it would have been a very long statement if one was to cover every item and to make comparsion.

I want to say to my hon. friend from Twillingate as well that those regulations surely must reflect the thinking of the people who made the numerous recommendations and suggestions on the white paper. For that indeed Hr. Speaker was the purpose of the white paper~ to allow the general public to have imput,and it must be the finest example of the democratic process that has been seen in this province. And I am certainly proud to be associated with that effort I am not saying, Hr. Speaker, that the re~ulations are final and forever. I am siiJil)lV saving that here is a compromise to the tvhite paper.

We have compromised, it 10268

June 8,1976. Tape /J 3267 AR/i4 MR. HICKEY was never our int~nt to enforce the kind of suggestions and regulations that were contained in the white ~per. This was a working paper, a,s I have indicated so many times, and it is my view that this is a good indication of what the public are prepared to have, what they are prepared to follow and indeed those are the kind of regtilationssMr. Speaker, I think that should be made, Beaause to make other types of regulations which the public aunot live wi.th, they would break them anyway. MR. SPEAKER Order please!

Strictly speaking on the ministerial statements, after hon. members have spoken for various groups• llave made their comments, then we should move on. And I am inclined to think that we should stick with that. Obviously undeT Oral Questions there would be an opportunity for questions on it. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR=-==-· ....:S:..:Pc.::E:.:;AKE=R:;.:...._ The bon. member for Bellevue. Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition MR. CAt.LAN on behalf of 102 voters of the collimunity of 'l'IIDrulea or Thornlea, whichever vay you want to pronounce it. A few ~ys ago Mr.

Speaker I, presented a petition on beh.al,f of the re·sidence of the community of Bellevue. Bellevue is located about half a mile from Thorn,le.a. And this petition that l: am presenting today is requesting the same thing, really, that the petition was asking for from the people of Bellevue. It says; 10269 ,..

June 8, 1976 Tape No, 3268 MR. CAU.AN: "We the undersigned people of Thornlea wish to have the

section of road from the TCH to Bellevue paved." You notice, Mr. Speaker, that the residents are from Thornlea. However,they are asking that the

section of road from the Trans-Canada Highway to Bellevue he paved. The road from the top of the Fair Haven Road, that NM- 1 is the TCH,to the Bellevue Provincial Park is now bein~ oaved and it says,'l-le would like this other

section paved while the paving equipment is in this area!' As I said, Mr. Speaker, there are 102 signatures actuallv, counting my own, on this petition from the residents of Thornlea and they are asking for the same

section of highway to be paved as were the residents of the community of Bellevue. Mr. Speaker, it pro1rably might be irrelevant but perhaps the government might be interested in knowing that the community of Bellevue, after which the district takes its name, that communitv in last Fall's election went predominantly PC as far as the votes are concerned; sixty-nine PC votes came out of that community and fifty-four, I think,between rnvself and the Liberal candidate, and I am sure,as I say, that does not matter hecause I am sure that the p,overnment does not do things for political reasons.

They are fair and impartial and what have you. But, Mr. Speaker, I think this is a fair and reasonable request. To my knowledge there will be not one inch of new pavement going in the district of Bellevue this year, except of course for what is goin?, in now, the 1.6 miles which is a contract left over from last year, last Spring, last Summer, last Fall. So, Mr.

Speaker, I thoroughly support the prayer of this petition and I hope that a long look will be taken at this with the possibility of getting this stretch-as T said,I would imagine it is more than a mile or a mile and a half,and here we have now nearly 300 people asking that that stretch of road be paved. And I am sure that there are hundreds of others who would like to see it 10270

June 6, 1976 Tape No. 3266 NM- 2 MR. CALLAN: done because there is a gap there, a gap between communities and a gap between the Trans-Ganada Highway and these two or three communities. Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition and I ask that the ~etition be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. member for LaPoile. Before the hon. member speaks I will draw to the attention of hon. members and welcome to the ~alleries on their behalf Mr. Garland Vardy, who is Chairman of the Local Improvement District of Mount Moriah in Bay of Islands. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear!

Hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to support the petition presented by the member from Bellevue (Mr. Callan} on behalf of 102 of his constituents who reside in the community of Thornlea. I could not help, Sir, but being ~ressed with the sincerity of the hon. gentleman in presenting the petition, and I do not think the hon. member w~s being naive or gullable at all when the hon. gentleman stated that he felt certain that road paving and the like, the decisions on what areas would be paved, were not made along partisan political lines.

I think the hon. gentleman was quite sincere, Sir, and pointed out that in that particular part of his district the people voted Tory in the last provincial eleetinn, But if it is true, Sir, then we certainly have a new doctrine and a new philosophy developing in Newfoundland and probably now we are seeing a tarn for the better,that we are not going to follow the practice of the past,that governments in the future will make decision ·s based on the merits of whether or not the project, whether or not the job, whether or not the road paving,in this case,should be done,and that decisions in future, as 10271

June 8, 197fi Tape No. 3268 NM- 3 MR. NEARY: indicated by my bon. friend,will not be made along political lines. The decisions will not be made on a political basis only. They will be made on the kasis of the need. In this particular case it is havin, that piece of road paved down as far as the community of Bellevue in my hon. friend's district. MR. SPRAKER: The bon. member for Fortane -Hermitage. MR. J. WINSOR: I take pleasure ~n supporting the petition as pr~sented by the bon. member for Bellevue (Mr.

Callan), in view of the fact that paving equipment is in that area and paving is ~oing on there at a very short distance to Thornlen. T am quite sure the minister would only be too glad to arrange that, and I am quite sure also that the fact that there are a large number of PC votes there will not make a hit of difference to him. J therefore have much pleasure in supporting the petition. 'MR. SPRAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I would like to present this petition on behalf of my colleaP,ue, the member for F.Agle River (Mr.

Strachan) 1 and it is a petition that the people have asked us to submit. It is from Cape Charles in Labrador and it is a request that the government please take i1111!lediate action in having electric power installed in Cape Charles and they request that the power be installed during the Summer or Fall of this year of 1976-and this petition,•s a matter of fact, was forwarded to us by Mr. Gerald Pye, of Cape Charles on the Labrador.

It is signed by approximately seventy to seventy- five people-And it is difficult for many of us to appreciate the fact that there are still, in spite of the fact that we have talked about the ~reat number of communities that have been electrified throughout the Province in the last twenty years or so,and quite a 10272

June 8, 1976 Tape No. 3268 NM-. MR. NOLAN: bit has been done, there is no question about that. But nevertheless it is a fact that there are some of our fellow citizens, take the case of Cape Charles,as an example, in Labrador where people are still.going without any kind of electric power.

So it would be appreciated if those concerned would take heed of the plea of this petition which I present today on behalf of the member of the Rouse of Assembly for Eagle River and of course the people who presented it, and I would like to tabl- it now in the hope that it will be presented to the department to which it relates. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER~ The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the petition as presented by the hon. member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) in the asbence of the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan).

I sm very familiar with Cape Charles becasse I spent some time in that area in two or three different years as a welfare officer on the Labrador Coast. I think the reason why Cape Charles has not as yet been given electricity-or supplied with electricity rather than the phraseology 'given'-is that Cape Charles is not a permanent community unless it has become so in the last five or ~ix years.

Cape Charles is a Summer settlement for the fishermen who reside in the Wintertime in Lodge Bay and I would say that this is one of the peculiar circumstances that is not all just characteristic of Cape Charles but is also of a lot of places along the Southern Labrador Coast; there is Cape Charles, there is Maddox Cove, near Battle Harbour, there is Tub Harbour and Snug Harbour down near Charlottetown, only they are out on the headlands. AN HON. MF.KBER: Snug l'~trhour i!'l now permanent. MR. PECKFORD: Snug Harbour is now permanent because there are one or two families there. }IR. NEARY: I was there. 10273

June 8, 1971\ Tape No. 3268 NM- 5 :-IR • Pf.CKF'ORO: Yes,I have been there . I think there have been one or two f aMil:ies ther~ for quite a few years livin~ permanently. Squa~e Islands wh~e they used to reside just for the Summertime and go fnto Charlottetown in the ~inter,but there might bP. some permanent ~eople in Square Islands as wel l . But the particular problem 'ltith Cane Charles is simply that it is extremely difficult to provide electricitv there unless they do it through, well they would ~ave to do it through d1.P.sel, 1 would think.

But it has only been temporary and unle~s it is changed in recent years they RO back again in Sencember or October, t P.uess October , to Lodge Bay for the WintertiJn... But the r>oint about Cape Charles is this, is that they are a very independent lot and just about all of them have thr surname Pve in Lodge Bay or Cape Char les and the ma1ority of the neonle are extremely hard workinr, as the hon. memher perhaps from FoP.O (Capt . Winsor) can vouch as r.ood or better thnn 1 can . t remember in the years that I visited r~ nP.

Charles,it was 1ust after about fifteen or s;ixteen successful f1!!hing voy11ges in a row, and many of the people of r.apc Charle!! were verv well to do. There were some pretty wealthv fishermen over the vears. 10274

June 8, 1976 Tape 3269 IB-1 .}1F.. PEr.KFORn: I think old Skipper Ken Pye;who is now pa~sed away, was one of those people that I st<'lyed with in Cape Charles. But they are a very innP.pendant lot and I think if that kind of a facility can be provided at a decent and reasonable cost that government should tal<e a J!:OOd hard look at it to see what they can do to assist a very independant people on the Southern Labrador Coast. AN HON. MEMBEP: Hear, hear: ~, . ~PEAKEF: The bon. member for Fogo. CAPT. WINSOR: _ ~r.

Speaker, I rise to support the petition presented hy my colleague on behalf of the member for F.agle River (~r. Strachan), and I certainly agree with what the hon. minister has said. You know, ~!r. Speaker, it surprised me that the minister's knowledge is so well versed in that particular part of the Province. But what he says is perfectly correct. The people of Cape Charles are very industrious and hard working fishermen. MR. PECKFOPD: Rirht. CAPT. WINSOR: And they have been,all down through the years. I have known the area for more years than I care to relate right now. But surely, ~r.

Speaker, if that is so,and it is so,then those are the people that the government should go out of their way to provide those faciliti .es to. They are the producers. They are the people Who create the new dollars that are so badly needed in our Province. AN RoN. MEMBER: Just as many as you want. CAPT. WINSOR: Yet they have to be deprived of a simple thing as a power generator to supply electricity, you know, to their homes for their d~Hy tasks and especially now in the fishing season. AN RON. ~ER: That is right. CAPT.

WINSOR: I would presume that the fishermen of Cape Charles are using the old cod-liver oH torch to split their fish. It is almost unbelievable. when you have an area where the people are producing ann yet they are treated in this way. ~r. Speaker, I certainly appeal to the government to give this petition every 10275

.Tune f,, l'l76 Tape 3269 IB-2 CAPT. WINSOP.:_ Rvmpathetic c.onsiderati.on and in the nrune of conscience provioe some ~ind of electrical power to the ~cod people of r.ape rharles . SOME HON. MFHRFPS: Hear, hear! ANSWRPS TO OT!ESTI0NS FOP lo/FTr.H NOTir.F: HAS BEF.N GIVEN: The hen. ~inister of Tourism . MP. SPEAKFP: _!f1' • HH~KF.Y : rfr. Speaker, on a number of occasions members have askec'l rtuestions about the lHldli.fe Park on the Salrnonier Line. I have some :Information which I would like to table.

Prior to the start of construction considerable plann:!np took place with re~arnR to the type of par~ rertuirec'l. ThiR plan was approved by the Wildlife Park Anvi sorv romm1ttPe wh :f ch was appointed hy (':ahinet consisting of government represe.ntat:ives, representat:ives of the academic community, as well as a nt1rnher of interested citizens. One C'lf the ma.ior oh_ie.ctives in the deve] oprnent of the park is that it be as close to nature RS possible.

The s1.te. on the Sal monter Line was selecterl anrl the first construction cons :I sted of the fencing of the 140 acre area with green vinyl chain link fencinp. The green vinyl fencinp- heinp used to blend in <rith the foliage of the area. The next m1'1.1or phase of construction was the plRdnp. of three buildings on the site, Cine to serve as a sPrvice hu:!ldinr: ann nne as an interpretative center,and the other a manager's resic1ence. A numher of firm!< were conte~cted concerning the possib:ll:ltv nf su-Ltahle huilc1inp:s for tl1E> site.

A final decision was made "dth th<' l'!pproval of the Advisory Committee, deputy minister 1'!nd m:!n:!ster. The propns11l s of Newfound] ani! redar Homes, "i!ent for Lindhall r.ec1ar Homes w"s accepted. They would supp] y all TI'B terial s ann complete] y erect the bu:!ldin~s includinr the installation of all facilities. The total price emoted with these services was $187,259. Ne.wfoundlano r.eill'lr 'flomes,representec1 hy ~·r • .James Winter, :lnrl:!catec1 that all huildinps wouln be completed by the Summer of 1974.

Construction, however, was sl nwer than was anti.cipatecl anc1 there were problems encountered. 10276

June R, 1976 Tape 3269 IB-3 Mn. Hir.KRY: DemolH:ion and reconstruction of one of the basements was a major factor. The unavailability of material for ~r. Winter's sub-contractor also posed a problem. In Yay of 1974,~r. Winter indicated that he wouJ('l require an additional $23,766 to complete the pro ,1ect. The reasonin~ for th1s increase was higher labour rates, increase in material cost,as well as the slight changes made by thp department on the original classification.

These increases were discussed at length with the representatives of Gus Winter Limited and with officials of the Department of Public Works and Services. In considerinp: the inflationary trend at the ti.me it was felt that the increases were justified. They were therefore approved. I might point out, ~r. Speaker, that it was at this point that I became minister of the department. TTp to that time of course I cannot speak personally for the project except what I am advised of. As stated earlier,we were advised that the buildings would be ready for the Summer of 1974.

However at the end of the Summer the hui.ldinp:s were still not completed. In November, 1974 we were advised hy Gus Winter Limited that unless they received an additional funding in the amount of $77,684.51 they would not cont1nue work:l.ng on the project. Careful consideration was given to this request and the matter was discussed thoroughly with the Department of Public Works and Services and it was unanimously agreed under no circumstances could the additional funds be justified. Gus Winter Limited representing Newfoundland Cedar Homes was notified to this effect.

The matter was referred to the Department of Justi.ce to determ:l.ne liabilities in the matter. On February 2, 1976,I advised Gus Wi.nter Limited that the Depart111ent of Tourism considered the contract terminated and I further advised them that the ~overnment of Newfoundland reserved the rig~t to sue for damages in the matter. It was essential that the buildings in the park he completed to avoid deterioration due to Winter factors. Tenders were called to complete the project. However,prior to awarding the 10277

June 8, 1976 'rape 3269 IB-4 rm. HTrKEY: tenders a lar~e crac~ occurred in the basement wall of the service builninr . Repairs and replacement to the wall were not reflected in the bids. Therefore it was decided that they could not be accepted as all concerned were notified to this effect. !lue to the many complications facinr. my department it was felt at this point that we decided to pass the matter over to the Tlepartment of Public Works and Services engineering sector, completely review the project and take the necessary action to have the job completed.

The Department of Public Works and Services has no~1 engaged a consulting firm who are presently appraising the project and will be snbmitt:!nr, pl<>ns and specifications for its completion. A 1 though ma1or construction has been at a standstill for some consic'lerahle time,wor~ has continued on the ••alkinp. trails and the animal enclosur~s. He anticipate having all tra:lls finished this ye8r. r.onstruct:fon of enclosures will contlnue llS long as ne~.' animals hecome nv81lahle for displav. He hope to have the park open to the general pnhl:lc ry early Fall this vear. Hr.

Speaker, T tahle this :Information for the benefit of the ~~~der of the 0ppns:lt1on. 0 0 0 .t:_fl . SPFAKFP: 'l'he hon. th~ "in:!ster of Ap,riculture and Forestry. MR. R01~3EAtr~ ¥r. Speaker, the question which has been posed - I was 1ust l?a:ltfnr: to .1nmp np to - for which notice has been given,:ff T may revert. MR. SPFAKF.'P: An answer to questions for which notice has been r,:lven? MR. ROTTSSF.All: Yes. MR. SPEAKEr: noes the hon. m:!njster have leave to Tevert? A11:ree~. ~'11. ROPSSEAIT: 'l'hey aTe ] ike iack-:ln-the-boxes over there. Sorry!

In reply to a ouestion posed ~ couple of davs ap.o by the hon. membeT for r.oncept:lon Bay South (Mr. Nolan) in respect to the compan:les 1 10278

June R, 1976 Tape 3269 IB-5 ~. R(')USS~ATT: involvement in fighting fires. I gave an ind:l.cation of what I thoup;ht it T,ras and I checked it out and substantially what I said was correct up to the new Forest Act of 1973.

Indeed the companies paid what I wnuld consider to be a small amount towards the fighting of fires between Bowaters and Price and in effect although they were responsi.ble we d:l d much of the fighting of the fires with our water bombers and anything else we had at our disposal. 11ip:ht now the situation is,as I indicated the other day, the new Forest Act provided for an acreage tax,anywhere from seven and a half cents up to twenty to twenty-two cents. ·I think the exact figure is twenty-one and a half cents but :In that area. That is not a fixed figure.

That can he changed from year to year and it would normally and theoretically depend on last year's costs of what the tax would be per acre. Now this is the first year it has been in, so it is at seven and a half cents. When we add up the cost last year I would not be at all surprised that that figure might be up. So the figure can graduate anywhere between seven and a half cents per acre on company land up to right now a maximum of twenty to twenty-two cents. As I say I think the ·exact figure is twenty-one and a half cents.

So in effect r.re have now assumed responsibility for fightinp; fires,which we i.n effect d:ld hefore the ac:t,but I might say, }lr. Speaker, that both companies are very, verv co-operati.ve, extremely co-operative with their own manpower. For example,this morning we have only one fire in the Province - not a fire actually, we are mopping up in neer l"ake. Everything else is out, thank God. But they have 100 men over there this morning, their own people,working at it.

Anytime \\'e have fires in the Provtnce in their l irntts they provirle all the assistance out of their people,with their people in wood~ camp,that they can. They have been more than co-operative and this they do not have to do~ although we can call on them. They do this very co-operatively. In additton to the tax of course they supply then 10279

.Tnne R, 1976 '~'<~pe 326'l IB-6 their own men, their o-.m people,,~hich thev hRve clone in m<~ny areas in the p<~st counle nf weekR 1n respect to the forest fire situation. So they <lrP - ~'ll. NOLAN: Wh<1t was the amount the compani.es supp] y each year, S25,0()0 a vear? ''1'. POITSSFAJT: T t.h:fnl< the f:f rure 1<as $50,000 he tween hoth flowater and l'rice,which is not verv much when you think that. last year I think n11r total fire fighting cost was someth:fnp like a million 10nit a half mi 11 ion ann tllree-q\larterR no] Jars> SO 10280

June 8, 1976 Tape 3270 PK - 1 Mr. Rousseau: it is not much. But now that that acreage tax is there,that can be graduated depending on the cost of last year's fires, and as I say, aadlas I indicated the other day~it is the first year actually, this year,that we have not computed the entire total cost las .t year. 'We will calinge it. Also, by the way,I might indicate that as a sttmulus to the compan*es any fire that is set on company land that is their cause, by their cutting operations and so on, they are required to pay the first three days of the total cost of the firefighting ope~ion.

We will pay after three days, if they have been the cause of the fire. In other words,if any of their logging equipment or so on are in the forest and a fire starts as a direct result of that, they are required to pay the first three full days of the firefighting operation. MR. SPEAKER: MR. F. ROWE: ORAL QUESTIONS I recogni~e the bon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Mines and Energy, and the Premier, I would like to direct a question · to the Government House Leader.

Sir, in view of the fact that some of the five Eastern Provincial Premiers have criticized Canada's Energy Minister for callin~ for a regional approach to power development and traaamission, would the Government House Leader indicate whether or not this Administration has a policy in that respect, and if so, what is it? Is it in agreement with or in disagreement with that of the Federal Minister of Energy? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. House Leader. MR. WELLS: I would not wish to comment on a matter or a statement made by the Federal Minister of Energy, Mr. Speaker.

The position which which a government takes on these things is a government position, not a position that one or another minister, and that is something that has to be considered by the government as a whole and the position taken, and announced then in due course. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. 10281

June 8, 1976 Tape 3270 PK - 2 MR. ROWE: I do not know if the Rouse Leader, Sir, missed my actual question, because I had a bit of a

preamble to it. But does the government have a policy with respect to a regional approach to the development of power and the transmission of power in the Eastern Provinces, five Eastern Provinces? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. House Leader. MR. WELLS: The policy, of course, Mr. Speaker; but I do not think it is my place nor should I attempt to enunicate it here at this time, especially when the question is framed not as a question to ask what our policy is, but rather whether we take particular issue with something somebody else has said,which I have not got in front of me to know what th~y said. MR.

ROWE: & supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary . MR. ROWE: Could bhe House Leader, Sir, indicate why Mr. James McGrath, the Federal member for St. John's East: said, "That the Federal Government must take the initiative then about - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROWE: - the National Power Grid? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would have to rule that question out of order, It is outside of the area of knowledge or jurisdiction of the minister.

The reason why a ~ember of Parliament said something would not be something I think which a minister in the Provincial Government would be competent to comment or certainly would not be within his exercise of his powers as minister. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A further supplementary. MR. ROWE: Sir, could the House Leader indicate whether or not it is true that the Federal Energy Minister has stated publicly that he will assist, and/or mediate the problem that we have with Quebec in connection with the buying back of power? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. House Leader. MR.

WELLS: In regard to that, Sir, I know fto more about that than any other member, Mr. Speaker, what I read in the public press and that is all I know about it. 10282

June 8, 1976 Tape 3270 PK - 3 MR. ROWE: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: I will allow one further supplementary. MR. ROWE: I have some more supplementaries, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROWE: We may get back to them. I will only allow one now. Well, Sir, could the House Leader indicate whether or not it is the intention of the Administration or the Premier to invite Mr. Gillespie for assistance? MR. WELLS: No. MR. ROWE: Because since this is my last supplementary I will make it a two part one, Sir.

What is James McGrath doing in criticizing the Energy Minister for ~his hands-off attitude? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!' I must insist that when the Chair says,"Order',' that the bon. gentleman asking the question do then cease even though it is in mid-sentence. I realize that nobody likes to be left dangling in mid-sentence, but it is necessary that when the Chair says;'order''that the person stop there. And that question is similiar or identical to one that was out of order.

It is out of order to ask the minister why somebody who is not related to the Provincial Government, who is not under the jurisdiction of this government, why he said something or why he did not say something. It is only the actions of the government that can be questioned. So I think that was essentially the question, I do not know if there was a part before that. MR. ROWE: There was a part. MR. SPEAKER: There was a part before which the bon. minis~er may answer. MR. WELLS: I will answer 10283

June 8, 1976 Tape no. 3271 Page 1 - mw MR. WELLS: the part before that had to do with Mr. Gillespie's offer to mediate disputes, was it not? And I would say to that that that is a government decision; that if and when a government decision is taken the answer will be communicated, and that is all there is to it. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the minister responsible for Consumer Affairs, Sir, if the minister or any official in his department in the last year or so received any complaints concerning double freight charges on building supplies coming into this Province imported from the Mainland? And did the minister receive any complaints either orally or in writing that Mainland firms were quoting prices, including freight costs, but that local suppliers were adding double freight charges to the building supplies or adding it on for a seconJ time?

And did the minister's department investigate specific complaints involving buildin g material and supplies? And if so, what was the result of the investigation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member in the first instance for warning me before the House met that he would be asking this question to give me a chance to check it out. I did. And as far as I am aware and my department is aware, at no time has this pnint been raised to them as a protest of double freight charges.

And if there is anybody in possession of such facts, we would appreciate it, Sir, if they could let us have it, and we would thoroughly investigate it. But I will just say for the record, Sir, that up to this time we have not had any complaints of double freight charges on any building supplies.

June 6, 1976 Tape no. 3271 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I would like to ask the Minister of Transportation and Communications if he is getting impatient with DREE or getting browned off with DREE, because I got the impression from the statement the minister made outside the House today that he is anxious to get the contract with DREE signed so that he can get on with awarding contracts for the various roads that come under the new DREE agreement this year? Would the minister care to comment on that? MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, in answer to the question regarding my attitude, my attitude is, yes, I am gettin8 impatient. I am sure all bon. gentlemen on this side of the House of Assembly are getting impatient, and hopefully all members of this Assembly are getting impatient with the unexplained procrastination in signing this year's DREE roads agreement. Over two weeks ago tenders have closed for projects for reconstruction and paving of roads, the Burgee road, the Bay d' Espoir road, the Bonavista loop road, the LaScie road,and now we have tenders called for five different projects on the Great Northern Peninsula.

But the tenders that were closed over two weeks ago are all ready for awarding the contracts to get these contractors moving. However, we cannot award the contracts until the actual signing of the agreement. So my comment to the aedia today was, "I am getting impatient~' In fact I am very impatient­ SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: - at this time because the construction season in NeWfoundland is very short. It is a short construction season.

I am getting numerous representation from people in these areas around the Province who know that tenders were called, who know that tenders have closed, and know what the situation is and inquiring through my office as to why the actual agreement has not been signed to date. And I cannot explai~ why, There is no explanation given to me as minister. There is no explanation 10285

June 8, 1976 Tape no. 3271 Page 3 - mw ~1r. Morgan. given to my colleague, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, who carries out negotiations with Ottawa on this matter. this outrageous - MR. MORGAN: MR. SMALLwOOD: MR. MORGAN: Does the minister have any suspicion as to why Suspicion is not the question , Mr. Speaker. No , but suspicion of - The question was, Mr. Speake r, with regard co my a-ttitude . I am answering the question accordingly . With regard to suspicions, I will not comment on that. To answer the hon . gentleman's question, I am very impatient .

I am sure I e.xpress the attitu de of all t:~y coll eagues inside of the House of Assembly. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~R. SPKAKF.R: Does the hon . gent lem3n have a supplementnry? ~R. NEARY: Would the minister indicate to the House that if the agreement is not soon entered into with DREE and the Government of Canada, will the minister then have to call tenders again? Will the cost~ have escalated that much that the minister may hRve to go back and call tenders on some of these project:<~ again? Would this be a factor? 1028fl

June 8, 1976 Tape no. 3272 Page 1- mw MR.SPEAKER: The hon. m!nister. MR. MORGAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the law !s quite clearly explained that after a lapse of thirty"days after the bids were received by the department concerned, that after a thirty day lapserwe have to recall these tenders. So far I think fifteen or sixteen days have already lapsed. So if another two weeks is carr!ed on, and there is no actual agreement signed, and we have not got the contracts awarded, it could meaa a further two weeks delay by calling tend~rs again. DR. FARREll MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Or four. Two or three.

Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question. One further supplementary. Would the minister confirm then that now that the controversy over reconstructing and paving of sections of the Great Northern Peninsula is that now a part of the new or will it be a part of the new DREE agreement? Will the Great Northern Peninsula work be included in the new agreement? Could the minister confirm that? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, the tenders are now being called in the local press media, advertised accordingly for five different projects on the Great Northern Peninsula, and these were, two were for paving projects and three for reconstruction. Now they have giwen us the authority to call these tenders in the same manner as the previous tenders were called for the previous projects mentioned on the assumption and on the anticipation of a DREE agreement being signed in the very near future. In other words,they gave us the authority to call tenders, to get the bids in, and all ready for awarding the contractors.

But like I mentioned earlier, we cannot award the actual contracts until the actual agreement is signed. MR. NEARY: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker, as this is a very - }fR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 10287

June 8, 1976 Tape no. 3272 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ I will come back' to the hon. gentlPman later, since there are so many other members who apparently wish to get in questions, but it is still quite early in the Ouest ion Period. MR. NEARY: It is a very serious matter, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice, but in his absence I will have to address it to the hon. House Leader.

The magistrate who has been given the responsibility to carry out the magisterial ~nquiry into the tragic deaths on the Trans-Canada Highway in Grand Falls is quoted in today's paper as saying that the enquiry has not yet started, ann the minister is quoted as saying that it is impossible to state when the enquiry would get underway. Well in view of the fact, Mr.

Speaker, that months have passed, and in view of the fact that there is a lot of concern in the Central NewfoundlAnd nrea that there may be or may not be - I am not saying there is - there may be an attempt to sweep the thing under the mat, will the minister state the government's position with regards to that ministerial enquiry now, and why the delay? Why is not that enquiry going ahead right now? MR. SPFAKER: The hon. minister. MR. WELLS: Yes, I will explain the position, Mr. Speaker.

With magisterial enquiries the magistrate is there, of course, and he will set down when he is asked to set the date for a ministerial enquiry as he will in this case. He will set it do.wn, and get it on as soon as he can,bearing in mind the other matters that he has set down before his court. But the other thing is that he cannot really set down the magisterial enquiry until the police and everyone else who intends to give evidence before the magisterial enquiry has completed their investigations.

So that when the investigations are complete, the police go to the magistrate, and they say, "We are now ready, and we have done our investigation; 10288

June 8, 1976 Tape no. 3272 Page 3 - mw Mr. Wells. will you please set the date?" And it may be that the Justice Department, you know, having received the police reports will go to the magistrate and say,the same thing. But the magistrate will not just set it down of his own volition. He has got to have an indication that the witnesses are ready and that they are ready to proceed. Well the government's position is,firstly, that it is obviously going to - not the government,but the court is going to have the magisterial enquiry.

But I think it would be complete .ly wrong for the government to be out beating on the magistrate's door and saying, "Set that down;' before it is ~eady, and the government would not do that. But when the. _police have finished they will go either themselves or through the Justice Department and ask the magistrate to set a day, and that is how the process works. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary? MR. FLIGHT: The magistrate in question is quoted, Mr. Speaker - MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please: I should point out to the hon. gentleman and to other members,and to a large extent it refers to the manner of asking questions rather than the sub.1ect matter, but I think that is important. Beauchesne 173, subsection 4, says: "Questions asked orally on Orders of the Day being called must not be prefaced by the reading of letters, telegrams, newspaper extracts or

preambles." And

section 177 reads, "It is not good parliamentary _practice to communicate written allegations to the House and then to ask ministers either to confirm or deny them. It is the member's duty to ascertain the truth of any statement before he brings it to the attention of parliament." To a large extent that refers to the manner rather than the subject matter, but it is important, I think, because if not the whole system of questioning, asking,based on newspapers or letters or telegrams, various reports~could be developed. The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Your Honour. 10289

June 8 ,1976. Tape II 3273 AHJ.Il i'-IR. FLH;)lT To the hon. House Leader~again,that the magisterial enquiry, and this is pertinent in this case because it is the magistrate who has been charged with the responsibility of carrying out that enquiry: As indicated, the sequence that will have to be followed before the mar,isterial enquiry is indeed started. And he has indicated that the first thing that must be ascertained is whether or not there is enough evidence to support a magisterial enquiry.

Is there any question in the Dept. of Justice , in the Hinister's mind or in the governments' mind that there indeed might not be enough evidence to constitute or to bring about a magisterial enquiry 7 because the magistrate charged with the responsibility indicated this might indeed be a fact? HR.

WELLS In answer to the hon. members question; I do•,not know what the Magistrate has in fact indicated or whether he is correctly reported, but the legislation governing magisterial enquiries is such that in my opinion there does not seem to be any doubt that a magisterial enquiry would be held not only in the case of these deaths but in the case of any- How shall I put it? If someone dies in the General Hospital of incurable cancer or something, and there is no doubt about why the death,there may not be a magisterial enquiry.

But in any death that occures not in natural circumstances which are adequately documented , then there usually is a magisterial enquiry, almost always is a magisterial enquiry,and the legislation provides for that. So in a case like this, I cannot conceive of there not being a magisterial enquiry or even any suggestion that there might not. And I am sure that the Magistrate did not suggest for a moment that, you know, he would have to assess as to whether or not there should be a magisterial enquiry. MR. SPEAKER Hon. member for Trinity-Bay De Verde mL ROWE Hr.

Speaker, I did not get a chance to say that I was dissatisfied with the answer I got from the House Leader so I would like to give notice that I wish to debate this during the Late Show 102no

June 8,1976. Tape II 3273 AH/12 MR. ROWE In the meantime Sir, I have a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications.Sir, could the Minister indicate whether or not the administration in this province made any representation to the Federal authories with respect to having chartered international flights arrive and ell· part from St. John's Airport. HR. MORGAN Sir, that question was answered in reply to a question from the hon. member from Lewisporte district approximately two weeks ago.

I replied to the same question then, by saying there has been no representations made by my department and I have no intention of making any. MR. ROWE Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER A supplementary. MR. ROWE Sir, in view of the fact that the member for St. John's West is in favour of such a system - MR. MORGAN: No one is in favour of. MR. ROWE -could the minister indicate whether or not the government has a policy within this regard, the provincial government has a policy? MR. SPEAKER Ron. Minister . of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN Mr . Speaker, the policy with regards to the lt.

John's Airport , my main concern at this time is to make sure that the facilities and accomodations at St. John's Airport are improved to the standards they should be improved. With regards to international status ,the present airport at Gander is given that status and there is no indication from my department to Ottawa or to any authority to have that status changed. MR. ROWE A further supplementary. MR. SPEAKER Supplementary. MR. ROWE Mr.

Speaker, could I ask the minister whether or not any studies have been conducted to see what the effect would be on the economy of Gander if such flights were allowed to take off from- MR. LUNDRIGAN: Raise that question with Ottawa, NR. SPEAKER Order, please!or~~t 10291

June 8 , 197Ci. Tape H 3273 AHO 3 MR . r.ow~-: Listen to him . lie still thinks hr is in Ottawa , Sir , yahooin~ away up there . som: uo:L nr.~mt:.RS !lear , hear! '1R. SPF.AKJ'R <lrder, plea:o~e! Order! tiR . ROV.'E Sir, could the ~lin ister indicate whether or not any provincial studies have been conducted to se~ what economic impact t hat it would have on Gand e r is such flinhts took off and landed in St .John's Airport . hR. H. COLLINS : t.'hy? lilhy should we? MR. ROWE: I did no t ask why , I a ske d iF . 1\lt.

SI'Ei\KEJ: Or der, Or der,, please! 11R. 1~l)wt If we did not have so many Yahoos over on the other ~ide we mi.ght p.et an answer . :·tl<. MORC.NI l1t . Speaker, in reply to the question, any studies to be carried out with regards to the traffic patterns in connection to ill rporrs and the effects that these traffic pntterns or trilffic flow would have on the economy of these areas is definitely the r esponsibility and ;uriJ<illrt<A - <:f :'1e red eral level of government . SOME BON . MEMBER: He should know tha t. ~m . SPEAKER: The bon . member for LaPoile , followe d by Burgeo- Bal_ d ' Espoir . 10292

June 8, 1976 Tape 3274 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure, I am going to direct my question to the Government House Leader, but I believe the hon. ~entleman may - MR. SU1MONS: (Inaudible) . MR.. SPEAKER: Order, pleaae! Order, please! I must call to the attention of the hon. gentleman to my right, the hon. gentleman for BUrgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Stmmons),that at times when things are aaid to my right or to my left which I do not hear, or,you know, where I hear mumbling and that is all right.

But when I do hear what would appear to me to be a questioning of a decision of the Chair, then I think that I am required then to intervene. MR. SIMMONS: That would interpret the question - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Is the hon. gentleman rising on a point of order or - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Sit down! Order, please! Sit down, boy. Order, please! What I was doing was drawing to the attention of the hon. gentleman that if he has a difference of opinion obviously he is entitled to it.

But what is said in the House and said audibly, not what a person may whisper to his deskmate, but said audibly where other members can hear it, then I cannot pretend not to hear it. And that was the point I was making. MR. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: What about a point of privilege? A point of privilege, yes. MR. SIMMONS: If everybody else uses this one, I should. On a point of privilege, the Chair has misinterpreted my remarks completely, and I feel I am entitled to explain, I explained to my colleagues rather loudly 1 for which I apologize, that I just figured out the system.

I have been here since the beginning of this session trying to get a question in, the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has now been recognized for four questions, and I explained to my colleagues that the way to do it is to keep standing up,and that is what I intend to do, Mr. Speaker. 10293

June 8, 1976 Tape 3214 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: The han. gentleman rose on a point of privilege to make an explanation which is certainly fair enough, and that it is not a. matter on which any decision from the Chair is necessary. It was a matter of explanation which the hon. gentleman made. The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I was about to direct a question to the Government House Leader, but the Government House Leader may wish the Premier's Executive Assistant to answer the question, because I understand the brief that I am going to refer to was presented to the Premier's Executive Assistant yesterday by the taxi drivers • Mr. Speaker, taxi drivers, cab drivers in this Province are having a very difficult time either getting insurance,or they have to pay high rates for insurance, and yesterday they presented a brief to the hon. Premier via his Executive Assistant.

Would the hon. gentleman care to tell the House what action the government intends to take on the request by the taxi drivers to have the insurance as far as it relates to their industry concerned investigated, and if the government will agree to postpone hearings that are scheduled for June 23, postpone these hearings until a later date in order to give the taxi drivers and consumer affairs people a chance to prepared briefs and so on? MR. SPEAKE~: The bon. House Leader. MR. WELLS: In the absence of the Premier I will answer that question, Mr. Speaker.

The point that the hon. gentleman has raised of course is a moot point, and I understand, yes, the petition was presented to the bon. member acting for the Premier at the time. This is a aatter that will be brought by the hon. member and by me to the attention of the Premier. If the government is to take such a position or any position on this it would have to be a government decision decided,of course,by Cabinet. I can undertake to tell the member that it will be brought to the attention of the Premier, and it is probably already to his attention.

A decision will be taken one way or another and communicated in the House. 10294

June 8, 1976 Tape 3274 Pit. - 3 MR. SPEAKER: The hon.memlaer for Burgeo-Bay d 1Espoir. When I recognized the bo11. l)lelllber f.or I.aPo.ile (Mr. Neary) I said foUowed by the bon. member for Burgeo-Bay d 1 Espoir,(Mr. Simmons), but he is not here. The bon. member for Ttlrra Nova (Mr. Lush) followed by the member for Trinity-Ray de Verde (Mr. Rowe). SOME HON.. MEMBERS: Rear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: Keep trying 1 Fred 1 • MR. T, LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Tourism.

I wonder if the minister is in a position to inf.orm the House whether or not the government bas made any firm, definitive decision with respect to the administration of the Art Galleyy here at the Arts and Cul tul'e Centre in St. John's, mo·re specifically, Memorial will continue to administer the Art Gallery or whether it will be administered by his own department. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Tourism. MR. T. V. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, as promised by the bon. the Premier, a very definitive policy with regards to the Art Gallery and the requested Arts Council will be made, I hope, within a matter of days. certainly hopefully by the end of this week. 10295 ,.

June R. 1976 Tape 3275 Jil-l Vl1. SPF.AJ<EP: The hon. member for Tr:!n:! ty-llav cle Verde. .J~._!lO~-I_E_:_ ¥r. Speaker, T h<we :> question for the ~·:!n:fster of Puhl i c Horh;. Mv unnerstanc1in~ is that the m;~na~ement contract for the Health ~ciPnces AN HON. MEMRF.R: We cannot hear you. ~':!:'...:- _P01\'F. .2_ T am sorry. Mr.

Speaker, I would ] ike to ask the ~I :in ister of Publ:! c l•lorks whether or not the manapement contract for the Real th Sciences r.omplex has gone to a mainland firm,and coulcl the minister :!ncHcate what firm this is and 'lo~at, if any, will be the additional c-ost to the Province. roulcl the minister also, instead of a series of supplementaries, incl:!cate what were the reasons for this management contract if incleerl it did ~o to a mainland firm, what were the reasons for it? ~~ • Sl'F.AJ<E!l : ))1'. FARPF.l.L: The hon. M:fn:!ster of Public Wcrks. Mr.

Speaker, negotiations are ongoin~ at this time concerning rhis r.ontr11c.t nnn T am not able or w:!llin!l 11t this time to rive any fnrther details. Tlut '~>'hen these are final i?.en T ~r:r J J he nelip,hte<'l to p::!ve al 1 the det111Js, costs anr\ the reasons :f.n due conrse which wjJJ probahly he a couple of d:~vs time. ~._!0WF.: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Has the contract been <1warderl, ''r. Speaker? !W. FAl!RELL: I :lust told the hon. memher, JI'Tr. Speaker, exactly what was goinP- on, that the negotiations were still goinp on.

I am not prepared to state anything further at this time. 1'1T..:~01\JF.: /1 supplementary, ~'r. Speaker. ~-SPF.AKF~~- A supplementary. llut I will point out~ as hon. members no clouht l<now,that they cannot insist upon an answer. A supplementary - _ MP. !>OWF. :_ t>ip:ht. ~~. SPEAKER: - for an an<'litional ~uestion. But a~ the bon. member knows he cannot insist upon fin answer to a previous question. ~r. Speaker, it is not mv intention to 1nsist upon an 11nswer, ~ir. But pro~ahly the minister could clarify one news report that I did hear which stated that this would cost the government 1029fl

June 8, 1976 Tape 3275 IB-2 ¥R.. ROWE: an additional $98,000,I believe. Could the minister indicate whether or not that news report is accurate~ J.'R. LUNDRIGAN: That is totally out of order. y.q?. ROWE: It is not, boy • MP. LUNDRICAN: Yes it is. It is totally out of order . MP. ROWE: ~r. Speaker, on a point of order. 't-!R. ROBERTS: No, no. There is no point of order. There is no answer to the question. J.'R. ROWE: I have a responsibility to ask questions of this administrat:l .on concerning certain public matters.

Now it was stated quite clearly on one of the news bulletins that the management contract had chan~ed hands and it was costing this government an additional $98,000 I believe. Now I am simply asking the minister whether or not that report is accurate. It is my responsiblity to ask that question. MR. ROBEJlTS: is r:l ght. ~R. SPEAKER: MP. 1-lEI.LS : The minister more than like l y would have said it The hon. ~inister without Portfolio. To the point of order, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. minister was asked a question about the Health Sciences Complex a few moments ago,and he gave an answer and the answer was, as I remember it, that he was engaged in negotiations, these negotiations were not yet complete and as soon as they are complete he will gladly t•ll the House the . details. Well it seems, Mr. Speaker, to me that any question talking about news reports or other extraneous matters :Insofar as that question is concerned is out of order.

Otherwise it is really imp] ying that although the min:l.ster has said negotiations are ongoing and he will give the answer 7the question implies that he is concealing the answer and that the whole thing i.s decided. That J think is out of order, Mr. Speaker. ~· - LUNDRIGAN: To that point of order very briefly. MR. SPEAKER: I will hear the Leader of the Opposition and then the 102'97

.June R, 1976 TapE' 3275 IB-3 }1R. SPEAKER: hon. minister to ~Y )eft. ~'T'. PC111F.T'TS: Thank you, "r. Speaker. ThE' J-1ouse J,eader h>ts state(! t••o rules correctly. Rut T think both of thE'll' are irrelevant to the point un<ler cliscnssion here. l;Jhat the House Leader was re. :~lly doinp, ,,,:~s p:iv1np '''hilt seeme<'i to be Rn answer th:~t his colleap.ue, the llin1ster of Public Harks, wip:ht well ,.dsh to give. T think we should go hack tn the point of the matter now hefore the. r.h1tir, l"r. Speaker, which is th;~t rnv colleague has aske<l a question.

He has asked whethE'r a certAin statement 1s correct or incorrect. Not-~ that does not offend ag:dnst the rule to which His Honour just referred which says that a member cannot iflsist upon :~n answer and its subsidiary rule which is that a member cannot multiply er ask a question ap;ain ·"·ith infinitely small v~riations thereon in the ruise of !mppJementarv or even further questions. Nor cloes it offend agai .nst the other rule, Sir, th:~t a question c:~nnot he "asPcl upon :1 nE'~·sp<'!.per report.

That stated, the citation is 177 ln Reauchesne <'!.nn jt bepins, "Peading telegr<'!.ms, letters or extracts from newspapers 1'\S an open1np to a question 1s an ahuse of the rules of thp House." vy co]] e<'!.p;ue •·•:~s not doing that. T c-1'\n summ<'!.rize ">hat T thinJ.- :Is our position on this quite simply, "r.

Speaker, by s;oying that T ,.rou]d think the l"inister of Public Workf; would be only too anxious to h<'!.ve the opportunity to set straight the record on th:ls matter hecause while he cl:ln not cause the reports to be made public 1 am ouite sure that he is as concerned as we all are because these reports l1ave been mane very public • I would think the :1-'inister "ithout T'ortfol:l o ancl the p;entleman for Grand FalJ s (Mr. J.undrigan), H he intends to insert himself :Into th:ls particular matter,are doing their colleap;uE' a disservice.

Because I would think the l"in:lster of PuhJic Works wouln welcowe very much the opportunity to lay this ghost for once ;oncl for all, that somehow an arrangement has been m<'!.dP with a l"ontreal firm th:~t wiU cost the Province $100,000 more than the arranp;ement ~~ich we have had, l"r. Speaker, which we have - r am sorry, the pentleman - 10298

June 8, 1()76 '!'ape 3275 IB-4 }Ill • ~ORGAN : Unconfirmed reports you are talkin~ about. ~. ROBERTS: t•r. Speaker, WE' are askinp; if the reports are confirmed or not. r.JON bep;an the report by say:lng, "The usual reliable source." no you know who the usual reliable source usually is? It is usually the Premier when CJON says, 10299

.lune 8, 1976 Tape no. 3276 Page 1 - mw Mr. Roberts. • • usually reliable sources." They are not irresponsible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Roth the hon. gentleman to my left and the Leader of the Opposition are, of course, now involved in what is not germane to the point of order. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am grateful to Your Honour for rescuing me from the savage assault of the Minister of Transportation and Communications. But the point I was making, Sir, is that I would think the Minister of Public Works would welcome the opportunity to answer the question.

He has answered the two other questions my colleague put to him fully and completely, and I think it is obvious, Sir, that the question should be answered, and I submit that the question is perfectly in order. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. LUNDRIGAN: The hon. Leader of the Opposition seems to be saying that he is not certain about whether the question was in order as much as his saying - MR. ROBERTS: No! HR. LUNDRIGAN: - that regardless of whether it is in order or not, there should be some response - MR. ROBERTS: ---- Point of privilege, Sir. MR SPEAKER: Point of privilege. }1R.

ROBERTS: l do not like this point of privilege business, alth ough I am prepared to move the necessary motion. But the hon. gentleman from Grand Falls(Mr. Lundrigan) I presume he just heard wha t I said, and he proceeds to stand up and misrepresent it, I am not prepared to say deliberately. But let it be clear, and let the hon. gentleman understand that I think, as I said at least four times, that the question is in order, and I think the answer answer would be in order. ~ MORGAN: There is no point of privilege. 10300

June B, 1976 Tape no. 3276 Page 2 - mw MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, it is a perfect point of privilege, Sir, for the benefit of the gentleman from Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan), And if Your Honour rules there is a prima facie point, I am prepared to put the appropriate motion in the nommal way, Your Honou~. We can then have a debate upon it and the procedures under procedure will be finished. All I want is to say to the gentleman from Grand Falls (Mr. Luddrigan), quote me if he wishes,­ certainly that would be better than most of the sources he quotes - but quote me accurately. MR.

SPEAKER: On that point of privilege. As I see it the hon. Leader of the Opposition is of the opinion that he was misquoted and has corrected, clarified and repeated and restated what he said, and the matter can rest there. The hon. minister is back on the point of order. MR. LUNDRIGAN: The only question I raise at the moment the question was asked, was that the member asked a question statin~. if I can correctly state him, that can the Miaister of Public Works confirm or deny a news report?

And on that basis,! think even if the bulk of the intent of the question or the question itself or the information being solicited is quite in order, that the member should refr.in from asking any minister in the House to confirm or deny news reports. I do not think that that type of question is in order, and that is precisely the ruling that Your Honour made earlier on today on, I believe, at least two occasions. So on that basis I think the member should either rephrase his question or withdraw it. MR. ROWE: I would like to raise on that point of order, Sir. MR. SPEAKER The bon. member. MR.

ROWE: I did not ask the minister to confirm or deny a news report. I simply asked the minister whether or not that that figure of $98,000 was accurate? MR. SPEAKER: Right. MR. ROWE: The minister will not answer the question. 10301.

June 8, 1976 Tape no. 3276 Page 3 - mw MR. SPEAKER: I have to dispense with the point of order. As I understand it, and I will have to ask the han. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe) to correct me, his question presumably was whether a certain figure was accurate. Is that correct? MR. ROWE: Partly. MR. SPEAKER: Whether a certain figure quoted in a news report was accurate? It is whether a certain figure was accurate. This like so many is an extremely borderline case, It certainly does not refer to the kind of quotation from newspapers on which I ruled ten or so minutes ago.

This is reference to a specific figure, and the question was whether that figure is accurate or not. To me it would appea~since every member has the right not to answer a question, it would appear in this particular instance to leave it at the discretion of the minister. SOME RON. }~£BERS : Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER: He can refuse to answer, or he can give the answer. But I do not see the question as the same kind of one on which I intervened about ten minutes ago which was prefaced by a fairly length y report of opinion from a newspaper.

But here the han. member has taken a certain mathematical sum and has said, "Is this sum as reported so and so an accurate or not an accurate." I think in some measure this is what he said. So I will not rule it out of order. And the minister has the discretion to answer it or to not answer it. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. FARRELL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have no intention of the keeping of any information or any reason to keep any information from the House. I certainly did not make any statement about this matter. I am a little shocked that it i s out, because ne gotiations, as I said, are ongoing.

I can 10302

June 8, 1976 Tape no. 3276 Page 4 - mw DR. FARRELL: say that they have involved a company in Montreal. Rut I think it is not fair for me to state any sums at this time. When these negotiations are completed, if completed, I will be delighted to give this han. House every piece of information available. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 10303

June 8, 1976 Tape 3277 PK - 1 MR. SPEAI<iR: Order, please! The time has in fact transpired. It did so during the point of order, but I did not wish to leave that important matter dangling until tomorrow. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Motion 6. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland Teachers Collective Bargaining Act, 1973," (Bill No. 87) , read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomnr.row, MR. SPEAKER: Motion 7. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Wild Life Act," ·-(Bill No. 88), read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. SPEAKIR: Motion 8.

On motion, a bill, "An A&t To Amend The Financial Administration Act. 1973. II (Bill No 0 91)' read a-:firs ·t-t:l.me' ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: Motion 9. On motion, a bill, to a Reaolution. - Motion 9 - I think No. 9 refers MR. WELLS: MR. SPEAlCER: That has been wrongly placed there, All right. Motion 10. It is no. 10. On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Registration And Regulation Of Consumer Reporting Agencies,"(Bill No. 89), read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: Motion ll.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The HJ.ghway Traffic Act," (Bill No. 90), read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: Motion 12. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Landlord and Tenant Residential Tenancies Act," (Bill No, 92), read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: Motion 5. On motion that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider a resolution in relation to the raising of loans on the credit of the Province, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. 10304

June B, 197fi Tape 3277 PK - 2 MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Resolution: That it is expedient to bring in a measure to authorize the raising from time to time by way of loan on the credit of the Province the sum of $197 million and such additional sum or sums of money as may be required to repay, renew or refund securities issued under any act of the Province. 10305

June 8,1976 Tape 3278 ~. MlAI!!~AN: Shall the resolut:lon carry? The hon. ~inister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr. Chairman, this is the loan act for the current fiscal yt>ar as outlined in the most recent burlget. MR. R.OBERTS: Has this bill been circulated? Yes or no? MR • noonv : Yes,the bill was circulated a long, long while ago, Bill No. 45. SOME HON. MEMBERS : It has been on the amendment books. Oh, oh! IB-1 ~. noonY: It has been circulated months ago, certainly weeks ago. There were three or four of the finance bills came out at the same time. AN HON • !-!EMBER: What bill is that? MR. wr:u.s : Bill No. 45. MR.

DOOIW: But anyway the content of the bill simply authorizes the Lieutenant-Governor in Council to raise the sum of money necessary for the borrowing programme of the Province for the current year. The amount 'in the bill is $197 million. In the budget address on page 14 the borrowing requirements of the Province are outlined for the coming year. The total cash requirements of the Province in 1975-1976 after taking into consideration the projected contribut:l.on to capital account of $10,400,000, there is $196, 433,200.

The financial proJ~;ramme of the Province will represent an :!~crease in net debt of $134 million. As redemption sinkin 2 funds and earnings on sinking funds total $62 mill:lon. The cash requirements then are broken down, Vr. Chairman, on that page of the budget into the general market borrowings of $155 million and Canada Pension Plan borrowings of $36,607,000, Government of Canada loans of $8,826,000 for the total of $196,433,000 ,which is rounded out in the bill at $197 million.

The Province will continue this year~as it has during the past !leveral years, to raise its long term debt only in Canadian and !Tnited States dollars whether they are raised in Europe or in the Canadian 1 (). 3.1lfl

Tape 32711 IB-2 ''1> • nonnY: ------ and the Un:!ten States M;orket 1 Ml we have hacl :In the past some unfortunate experience with the F.uropean currency, the fluctuations of the neutsche mark 11 few VPRr:o ap,o costing th:ls Province a consinerable 11mount of money 1lnd i.t :Is an experience that we certainly clo not WRnt tn ~o throur,h ap,a:!n.

So with that in mind, as I say, '~<'e have everv intention of 11~:1tinp. or central:!zinp our borrowinR in Caniln:!an ;m.-1 Tln:!tecl States cloU11rs which appeAr to he a more stable currency anrl one on which you can make a reasonable estil'!ate as to their value when the t~e comes for their retirement. Of course, Sir, these amounts that I mention now are in ann:lt:lon to the financing requirements of Newfoundlancl and Labrador Hyclro wh:l ch woul cl UkeJ y renu:!re about $50 million :In non-current finandnp,.

That is exclusive of the GulJ Tsland thing which has !'lince been, a"' the Premier has announcerl, temporarily at least discont:!nuecl. The $50 million lnnp. term financinp will be for cnpital expenn:!ture proprammes which are the regular hydro corporations prop:rammes. ThPre will be an additional $25 m:!.l] ion Newfotmdlancl Municipal Financinr; Corporation -.rh.ich is to roll over some of the amounts as we eli scussed i.n yesterday's Newfoundlancl ~un:l dpaJ F1.nancinp, R1 l l.

That bill was a $21 million total • Our oh1ective :Is to trv to roll over ahout $25 million of that Newfoundland ~un1c:lpal Financfn~~: rorporation debt every year. We have been successful in cloinp, that to elate. A few weeks ago - not a few weeks ago - last week,I think, we went to t.he Canad1 an market and put a $30 million offering to the puhl1c and it was taken up the same day. I find that a very encouraginp, sip,n indeed. It puts to rest those people who are concemen Rhnut the ability nf the Province to horrow cluring the present fiscal year. MF. SMALLWOOD: How much? HR.

OOOJW: A $30 million offerinp,. foiT'. S~'ALLWOOl': In the TTn1.ted States? .• 10307

June 8, 1976 Tape 3278 IB-3 Ml' . • noonY: In Canada about three or four days ago - no,not - last week, one day last week. It was the same day that the Premier made the announcement on the ultimatum with Quebec Hydro. We thought that the timinF was very significant because it demonstrated the fact that the financial community in Canada realizes that the people of Newfoundland have a good case, and that they have confidence in the ability of the Province to repay its loans. Of course,that is the main item of concern and should be the main item of concern. It is not the amount of money that we borrow.

I think that if it was necessary the Province could probably go out and borrow $500 million this year. It probably could borrow more if it had to. The point at hand and the one that we have to consider, Mr. Chairman, is not the short term borrowing,although the money could certainly be used, it is the long term servicing and the amount of money that is going to be necessary in years to come to service the debt. As the hon. Leader of the Opposition mentioned yesterday, whether or not the entire amount of the long term provincial debt was ever fully retired or paid off is inconsequential.

People loan money to the Province on the assumption that their bonds will be redeemed within a certain time span as is demonstrated on that particular issue. They also loan on the return on investment on the yield of the bond. As long as the financial community is satisfied that their particular investment can be serviced properly during the years,then indeed we do not have a problem. But we are treading a verv narrow path when we get up to $106 million this year in servicing of a debt which would probably be in the nature of $120 million or $125 million next year.

I am afraid that we are running very close to the '1>7ind in terms of our ability to service the debt. And this is why it is so necessary that we cut back on borrowing, that we address ourselves to the problem not in terms of the amount that can be borrowed. That is not relevant 1 as I said. That we can handle. What we have to address ourselves to is how much of our revenue can be realistically 1030S

T11pe 1278 IB-4 MT!. ronnY: --·---- voted to servicinp th;~t rleht. Now ~~e have, of course, prmrh;ions, ancl 'fJave h11rl for snJTle t:ll'le f0r s:!nk:lnr. funds ~<71-d.ch are attache(! to and 11 p11rt of the various honrl issues that are sent out, that <1re offererl to the mArket anrl <Ire tRl-en up hv the market. Now :If hon. meMhers ;~re interesterl in looking at the. appendix in the hudget they will notice ~ list of bonn issues over the past year. Soroe of the11' cio not h11ve sink:lnr. funds attached. f:ome of the"' w<>rf' issued ~1i thout sinkinp: ftmnA.

These have special ret:! rement fNttures in eac.h :!nc:l:lv:!Ciual casP "1h:!ch :In effect represent a sink:lng fund heci!USP there is a clause :In the bond :Issue itself >-.rh:lch automatic,l]v retires a sPt a!T'ount of that issue at specifierl times under the

schedule of the honrl issue. So, Sir, the amount of horrow:lnp;,as T say, that :Is necessAry to cArrv on the c;~pitAl projPcts of the Province for the coroing year ;~re l'ls T h11ve outl1ned. '!'his h-!lJ,,~h:lr.h is one,1 might say,that haR heen relAtively a ne•• feature of this 1-louse,as I unoerstand it, :It is a lep,islat:lve imorovement which ~<llA bronp;ht forward by th:ls ailminiAtrat-!on in which the povernment hAR to come t.o the House and Reek permission to horr!'IH anc1 explAin to the Fouse what the hotr!'lwinR is for an.-1 riv<> flO ftC:CfltlnUnp of 1ts previous horrowinps.

I think that thjs is :~n Anmlrahle step fonoard in the f:lscal aman~ement Rnd in report1np: to the pnh 11 c- "n.-1 to the people throup:h the HouRe exAct1 y what r,overnment j~ Q01nr in terms of its horrowinps, fro!T' whence the money C"0!1l('S And where the money r;oeR and ~:!ve an <ICcfluntjng p.eneraJly of our resnons:!

h) i tv in tenns of the fiscal man11p:ement !'If the Province. T think that this j<; a relatively ne.v anQ T think a very, very worthwhile ler;islative proce.Qure. I think that T will notv take my se11t Etnd Jet thnsP. IT'Pmhers present who ~·'Ant tfl ask quest1ons or to ci i SCIISS the h -!1) h11ve A p.o at jt. 'T'he hon. Tl'P.mher for Burp:eo-Ray n 'F.spoj r. 10309

Tape 3278 n . S I"l'CIN~ : th1n~s about the h111 now before Committee, the bill which would authorize the govern~nt to horrow $197 million . Perhaps first IB-5 of all, ~r. Cha~rman, it is worth noting in response to some comments m::tde by the minister a few li'Oments ago about the innovation of havtn~ this reQuest co~e before the Rouse as a request so the Rouse can debate it and so the ~~:overnment can be ansvera ble to the Rouse in terms of what the horrowinr.s are fo r, before the minister and his colle~gues break their arms hy pattjng themselves on the back for that lcind of an innovation I would suggest to hilll and to them that ' . 10310

June 8, 1976 Tape 3279 PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: they should take a long look at the way they have handled financial matters generally insofar as this House is concerned. ~ is a matter of record, Mr. Chairman, that the Budget has been bandied about for a number of months before members of this House. I got an opportunity to speak to it in a debate. We have gone through that, indeed we have seen the debate on the Budget only in recent weeks, although we had the Budget in our hands for a number of months. I would think that some time today or tomorrow we will be asked to take a look at another bill,.

Bill No. 44, "An Act For Granting To Her Majesty Certain Sums Of Money For Defraying Certain Expenses Of The Public Service For The Financial Year Ending The 31st. Of March, 1976." And not too long ago we dealt with the Interim Supply Bill. Here we are now being asked to give authority to some borrowings of which notice was given in the Budget back in March. All in all, Mr. Chairman, it adds up to a very chaottc picture. It adds up to a very chaotic handling of the financial affairs of this Province.

It goes without saying that the bill that we will come to shortly, Bill No. 44, the so-called Supplementary Supply Bill can at best at this point in time be a rubber stamp, at best to be a rubber stamp despite the fact, of course, that the House was sitting before the last fiscal year ended, we were sitting in March and the year did not end until the 31st. of that month. Mr. Chairman, I believe the overall point that needs to be made from the comments I have just is that there does not seem to be any appearance of order whatsoever to the handling of the financial affairs of this Province. And beyond that, Mr.

Chairman, there seems to be a complete disregard for the role of this House in the matter of financing, and the matter of the financial affairs of the Province. I appreciate it when the minister stands up and says, "This is an innovation and we are actually coming to you, we are going to tell you like it is, and we are going to ask you for 10311

June a, 1976 Tape 3279 PK - 2 Mr. Simmons: permission.'' Mr.

Chairman, it is very difficult to deny permission if we are already on a course anyway, if we are already launched into a borrowing programme, if we have already committed the supplementary supply,a~ we certainly have, then it is a mockery, it is an insult to all of us to even come here with your pretty bits of white paper and say, "We are ' consulti;,g y~u." I can think of many things I would rather do in this House than go through the charade of rubber stamping that which is already taken for granted or has already been done, or a course of action that has already been set in motion.

I would say to the Minister of Finance, and to the Committee, and to the House, and to the government,that practically every item bearing on the Province's finances that we have been asked to enter into dialogue on in thia House in this session, practically every matter have been a ~ fait accompli before it got to the eommittee stage or got to the House at all. And I repeat, I can think of much more profitable ways for a group of men and women to spend their tfme than going through this kind of a charade. We have no intention of opposing the Borrowing Bill. Notice of this was given in the Budget.

We subscribed,as certain ethers in this House do not, to the principle of borrowing as one of the ways of financing the operations of government. We think it has to be done with restraint, and according to the need. But in principle, Mr. Chairman, we can support the principle of the Bill. But we do not support, what we take very strong exception to is the charade, the mockery, the rubber stamp job that we are being conned into once again.

Nothing can be done in this session to undo the insults inflicted on members by the sequences that we have gone through in terms of calling Address in Reply, and the Budget, and the Budget debate and the estimates and that kind of thing, But, I hope, Mr. Chairman, if nothing else comes out of this 10312

June 8, 1976 Tape 3279 PK - 3 Mr. Simmons: session in terms of making the House more efficient and more productive, I hope if nothing else is forthcoming I do hope that the Government House Leader and the Minister of Finance, and the Premier and others in Cabinet will hear the plea made, not only by me, but a number of other members including the Leader of the Opposition, the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood), the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) among others, a plea that the husiness of the House be called in a much more rational order than it has been done this session.

I do not believe I need bore the members of the Committee with the details of what the sequence has been this time in terms of the calling of the estimates, and the calling of the Budget debate and that kind of a thing. I believe all of us here in Committee know exactly what I am talking about.

And I reiterate, I hope if nothing else is forthcoming from this session in terms of the functioning of the House, I do hope the Government House Leader and his colleagues have resolved that the next time around, the next session we will not have the charade perpetrated on this House, and on this Committee that has been the case during this session. It is no way to do business, Mr. Chairman. I have been sent here by a constituency to do ,a number of things, and one of them is to assist in the monitoring of the expenditures of the Public Treasury. It is very difficult to do it, Mr. Chairman.

The money has already been spent or committed, the borrowings have already taken place. It is a waste of my breath and the waste of the breath of every member of this Committee to stand here and vociferously oppose or support a course of government action, if that action is already well in motion. And I cannot speak too strongly, Mr. Speaker, about how strongly I feel against the methods that are used in this House, in this session, to deal with the affairs of the Province, particularly the financial affairs of the Province. It is nothing short of shocking. It is disgraceful.

It is a mockery of the whole democratic process when we do it in this, 10311

J~me 8, 1976 Tape 3279 PK - 4 Mr. Simmons; excuse the expressiou, this ass-foremost way, thia after the fact way, this barri.Rg the gate afte-r the horse ia gone approach to things. Now, Mr. Cha:irman, t.he easy solutiOn, the easy conclusiou, I ought to say, the easy conclus.ion would be to come to the conclusion that thesl;! fel.lmi's<ldo not know any better. I do not th~k that is the case at all. I think it is quite the re.verae. I think they know very -11 W'hat they are up to. I think they arrqed .. tters in this sequence, in this order, very deliberately for. s trage tic reasons • And tliat, Mr.

Chairman,gets me even mo~re uptight, when I realize the flovemaent House Leade.r and his colleagues are pupared to entertain themselves w~th strate2ies when we are dealing with matters as 5erious as $155 million or $197 million borrOWing or S1l cwerall $1 billion budget. I wulci suggest, M.r. Chtil:mlm, particlll&rly in these diffic!llt financial times, in these times of restraint, in these times of cataatroph.ic unemployment across the PTovince, it W'OUld seem to me that the narrow political strageties 10314

June 8, 1976 Tape no. 3280 Page 1 - mw Mr. Slmmom;. ought not to be the prime consideration in handling the business of the Province. It would seem to me that a much more productive approach would be to orient the agenda of this House in a way and in a manner and in an order so as to allow for the fullest possible disclosure, the fullest possible discussion, the fullest possible hearing of the financial details of this Province. Instead of that, Mr. Chairman, this afternoon in what must be the dying hours of this session or this part of the session, we are being asked to rubber stamp the borrowing bill.

I predict that we will shortly be asked to rubber stamp,in the truest sense of that term, the Supplementary Supply Bill, Bill No. 44 on the Order Paper. It l.rould he ~ cliche to say there has to be n better way. Not only is there a better way, but the government knows what the better way is. The better way is to get back to the simple logic of the situation. Do step one before you do step two. That is the better way.

And I would appeal to the Minister of Finance to use his influence with the Government House Leader to see that the next time around this whole consideration of the finances of the Province not be done in such a haphazard - I was ~~;n1ng to say haphazard way, but no ,I return to my earlier thesis - it is not at all hazard. It is quite planned. It is quite planned, not very logically sequential, but quite planned. MR. ROWE: Organized confusion. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, organized confusion. Confusion organized for a purpose, the purpose being to suit the government's- MR. MURPHY: L~e vou used to do.

What you did for twentv-three VP~r~? MR. SIMMONS: The member for St. John's Centre - could he repeat his - MR. MURPHY: I say, do as the previous administration did do not come to the House at all, just do it, and come back and then a sk for it. That is all. You have to borrow. What you are saying is absolutely stupid and obsolete. That is all I am saying. 10315

June 8, 1976 Tape no. 3280 Page Z - mw MR. SIMMONS: I see. MR. MURPHY: We have to listen to you. There is nothing we can do about it. MR. SIMMONS: No, the minister has not got to listen. MR. MURPHY: If the hon. member goes down - MR. SIMMONS: If the minister from St. John's Centre thinks it is stupid to discuss the borrowings of this Province, then why does he allow his colleague, the Mini·ster of Finance to go to the charade of even bringing it in here? If he has got a dispute with the leader of the administration for the twenty-three years,let him take it out with that leader who happens to be in the House now.

Do not look at me. Because what was done in twenty-three years - MR. MURPHY: Let it rip, MR. SIMMONS: If the minister will stay silent long enough I might get through to him. I doubt it, but I will try. MR. MURPHY: Oh, my! MR. SIMMONS: The minister talks about what went on for twenty-three years. He seems to be the resident expert on that particular subject. No, I am not an expert on anything, but you know I am aware of it as. I wish the hon. member were the same way,with great pleasure. MR. SIMMONS: I want him to talk himself out. He is making such a good fool of himself, Mr.

Chairman, that I would like to hear more from him. Perhaps there were some things wrong in the first twenty-three years. I was not around here. I will say this,that the member for St. John's Centre was sitting over here, and I hope he raised his voice as much as he does these days when he has not got the floor. I hope he got up once in a while .,and spoke against the vicious crimes he is talking about. MR. MURPHY: I know nothing about crime. At·no time did I say anything about a crime by the previous administration. MR. SIMMONS: Officially I retract the word 'crime', Mr. Chairman. 10316

Jun..-8, 1976 T:tpe no . 3280 Page 3 - mw ,.. Mr . Slmmnn,;. ------ Tt is t he kind of tenn that comes spontaneously to mind \./hen one loo ks at the member for St . John's <.:entre (Mr. l1urphy) . ~1at a crime ! I say that in the compassionate sens e of the expression only, !1r . Chairman . :-lR. MURPHY: Well done, 'Roger' . We know how popular the ,. hnn . gentleman is. ~IlL ST~l10NS: Mr. Chairma n - Poi nt of order, Hr. Chai rman. MR . ~:tiRI'ffY : ----- Sure , l cannot help it . He is insultin g me. f :t:u heinr, Insulted . T got to defend myself . HR . S nU·IONS: That was :1 compliment. NR.

ROWr:: Point of order , Mr. Chairman . My colleague has been trying to make a p oint for the last ten minutes, and he h:~s l>ecn under constant interruption fro m the so-called minister for St . . fohn's Centre . And I would just like to ask the Chai rman to ask - C:et on with it . List en to it over there, Sir. Just listen to it nvc:>r there. NR . S!MMilNS: Name tt ! ~arne it ~ ------ ~IK . ~IURPIIY : Sci.ck to the stateme nt. ~IR . Cl~~: Order, plea se! I·IR. ROWF.: - I .....ould "-Sk the hon . member for St .

John's Centre (11r. ~lu r plw} , Si r, tn mnint11ln stlence while my coll e11gue is spea kinA, and he hAs every opportunity to speak to t his particular bill Lf he wishes to at a later date . NIL C!~lRNMl: Order , please ! A point of ord er has hcen r11ised on the matter of lnterjcctt.ons whilst the hon. member has the floor . Of cou rse, nll hon. ml'mbcrs are aware that this is a pr;tct i ce that the Chair doc~ not tilke note of officially unless req uested to do so . This has been our pattern of procedure here, and as note has now been taken 10 317

June 8, 1976 Tape no. 3280 Page 4 - mw Mr. Chaii'IIlan. of it, I would ask hon. members to allow the hon. member for Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) to continue his remarks in silence •. MR. SntMONS: Thank you, Mr. C».airman. As I was saying in reference to some comments made by the member for St. John's Centre (Mr. Murphy), I am not aware of how things were handled during the twenty-three year period he continues to laud. Mr.

Chairman, I will say this to him and to the Committee,that the little I do know about those twenty-three years in the management of public affairs, I know of no example during that period, without appearing to defend it at all, I know of no example of where the charade was any greater than it is right here now in terms of the way we are handling the finances 6f this Province in the House right now. There could be no period, Mr. Chairman, during that twenty-three years when the charade was any more complete. And if the member for St. John's Centre (Mr.

Murphy) is right that they did not even bring it in, I say at least that crowd had a respect for efficiency. At least they did not take up the time of the House discussing a fait accompli which is what we have here again today. So at least whatever else can be said, at least they had a respect for efficiency. Here we are, Mr. ehairman, today - I have said it 1 why repeat? Anybody who wants to hear the point has heard it. I do not really expect to convince the member for St. John's Centre (Mr. Murphy). I do not particularly f@el that we ought in 19~6 get too bogged down in comparisons with any past pe~iod.

I think what will be eminently more productive will be to ask ourselves a simple question, is this the best way we can handle the question at hand. ~nd I am not convinced. I am not convinced that the best way to aeek Supplementary Supply is two or three months after the fact, after it has been expended. I am not convinced that the wav to allow for an intelligent and pertinent 10318

June 8, 1976 Tape no . 3280 Page 5 - mw Jr. Stmm~c;-'- debate on the budget is to call the debate months after the budget has been brought down. I.f that is what the member for St. John 1 s C.entre (Nr. l•lurphy) Eavours, he and I just do not agree on that particular point . Mr . Chairman, Bill No. 45, the one before Committee now, a r esolution to authorize the borrowi ngs of $197 million, J will say that we ,;ill not oppose the bill. We are for ~c principle of borrowing to finance government's debt .

We fully believe that it has to be done with restraint at all times, but with particular restraint in this particularly unique year from a financial standpoint. It has to be done, one, with restraint, and two, wit h prett }' intimate reference to our needs and our ability to borrow. For our pare, Mr. Chairman, my colleagues and I will be able to support the principle of the bill. SOME llON. ~tm-IBERS: Hear, hear~ H~ CHAIRNAJ'!_: TI1e hon . member for St. John's East . MR. ~!ARSiiALL: Mr.

Chairman, the hon. member who jUst spoke, it is not really hard to see how the hon. member feels chat chis bill i~; a charade, it is a rubber stamp, or it i s a fait accompli, because it is obviou~ that the hon . member does not understand the import of the bill, the reason for the bill, and th11 bill's bein2 brou2ht in . Now I 10319

June 8, 1976 Tape No. 3281 NM- 1 MR. MARSHALL: understand that the hon. member is supposed to be the financial critic in the Opposition, and this appears to me to be one of the most incredible statements I have ever heard from a member of the Opposition,let alone somebody responsible to shadow a particular department, that this is a fait accompli. The fact of the matter is, llr.

Chaiman, this is a resolution that has been brought into Bommittee and if it is passed a bill will be introduced in the House;and if and only if this resolution is passed and the bills passed as well,then and only then will the government get the power to borrow $197 million.

Now this is set down in the l'inancial Administration Act,wo which I refer the hon, member for study before he makes such statements as that,whereby the government of this Province is not empowered to borrow any money without the sanction of the legislature unless it happens to be for a purely temporary purpose and then only for restricted reasons and they have to come to the House pretty well almost immediately,•r for the purpose of refinancing already borrowed debt, rolling over borrowed debt. This was not the situation, Mr.

Chairman, as I might state,before this government took over the position it has in this House. It was always a bone of contention and people can debate it from one corner of the House to the other but it happens to be true, that prior to coming into power in this lovernment from 1966 onward one of the wor~t,in my view, powers, the greatest powers and the most oppr~ssive powers that had ever been given to a government in British Parliamentary practice was to confer upon the Cabinet power to borrow secretly in secret government session and the public would be then faced with a fait accompli.

That was where the fait accompli occurred, Mr. Chairman, and this is not a.ofait accompli, it is not a rubber stamp, it is not a charade. There may be certain things with respect to the procedures of this 10320

June 8, 1976 Tape No. 3281 NM- 2 MR. MARSHALL: House that I will agree with the hon. p,entleman are a charade. but the brin~in~ of this hill in) of this hill of itself is certainly by no means any charade because the fact of the matter is if it does not pass the government does not get the power to horrow and the ROVernment therefore is iust as much necessary to the government in its expenditures for the ensuing vear to get the power to borrow this money as it is for it to have its budget passed and its estimates passed and for its taxation bills to be raised.

The statements of that nature show a surprising, a very surprising lack of knowledge on the part of the hon. member and I am verv surprised that he would make and he could possibly make an observation of this nature and surely the hon. member did not reallv mean it. Now, Mr. Chairman, to get back to the purpose of this bill; whv are WP really debating this particular hill for borrowing? Why is it necessary?

There are two ma1or reasons that I see why it is necessary; first of all is to bring to the attention of the public insofar as this House is capable of doing so,and I rlouht as to its capacity,but insofar as it is capable of doing so the amount of the borrowing in this Province, and T will come to that in a moment,and the other thing is it keeps the people in charge of the fiscal affairs of this Province on their toes,because they pass a budget in which they estimate certain exrenrlitures are to be made, in that budget they say there are certain to be raised and the expendjture either have to be financed either through revenue from taxes or through the government of Canada or through borrowing, one or the other,and if vou leave a loophole open for the executive arm of 8overnment to borrow as much as it wishes ill. the Cabinet, then and in that event you do not have any real pressures put on the Department of Finance to make sure that when they budget they are budgeting 1.0321.

June B, 1976 Tape No. 3281 NM- 3 MR. MARSHALL: carefully. It is a calling of them into account. But now on the matter of government borrowing, the amount of government borrowing,and this is one of the major purposes here of this bill, $197 million, much as has been said about it, I do not think ve should just let it roll off our backs because today's debts become tomorrow's burdene and let us not forget it. Now next year, Mr. Chairman, this $197 million will hit the debt service fund for the first tfme.

On interest alone the government will not, I assume, be able to borrow at any less than ten per cent; its last issue wit.h the Government in Canada was betwwen ten and a quarter and ten and ~tree quarters but it was in excess of ten per cent, So that translated means $20 million extra next year that we are going to have to pony up for interest.

So the burden then is $20 million as a result of this bill.But there are certain other ~~stions I wish to ask in the Committee of the House wher~ we are now so in order that there will be full public knowledge of the situation, because by my calculations I feel from the information that I have that far in excess of $200 million or the $197 million is going to hit the debt service fund next year for the first time. In other words,the debt service fund will have to grapple with considerably more than $197 million. Now how does that arise? Now I make these statements, Mr.

Chairman, not from the point of view of getting up and trying to say that the government is trying to hide something, I want to make that perfectly clear, or sweep it underneath the carpet because everyone of these factors has been announced publicly and they are well - they are as far as public information it has been given by the gover.ment, there has been no attempt to hide it -but the fact of the matter is I think it is absolutely essential that if my premises are correct that the facts should be known and again put together in one piece and drawn to the atteBtion of the public. 10322

.Tune R, 1Q7fi T1tpe No. 3281 ~- 4 MR. >.fARS!II\LL: Tn the f~rst place, Mr. Chatrman, we already have in the budget speech reference to extra expenditures above the $197 million. T will come to those in a moment. The main extra exnenditure, T know the Minister of Finance is outside and he will - T trust he is he1tring what I am saying because T would like him to respond to these questions, is with respect to the acquisition of the Upper Churchill.

When we acquired the shares which amounted to apProximately $110 million plus another $30 million for the undeveloped resource from llRINCO, the amount was $lfi0 million,and Mr. Chairman, we all remember how that was financed. It was financed then throu~h a local commercial hank with the interest being capitalized for a two vear period.

It was borrowed I think at about eleven per cent, or somewhere in that range 1 hut the interest was to have heen capitalized. $160 million, instead of the following vear paying the interest it was a part of the term that this interest would he added to the capital, so iust using round figures another, ~16 million if you had ten ner cent. But it happens to be more than that. In year two it was to be capitalized, which is another $16 million so we are talking there about $32 million, so we are talkin~ about between ~192 million and ~200 million.

Now if mv memorv serves me correct 1 at the time when this loan was undertaken we are soon going to have to pay interest on that total amount. Rut T he U eve that the full force and effect of this $200 million is going to hit the Province and the debt service fund in the next fiscal year. MR. S!MMO~S: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. MR. SIMMONS: Could we have a quorum? We would like to hear what the m~>mher ha·s to say but we should have a quorum. 1.0321

June B, 1976 Tape 3282 Would the clerk count the House? I am informed that a quorum is present. The hon. member for St. John's East. IB-1 MR • MARSHALL : As I was saying, ¥r. Chairman, this is by way of really questioning clarification that I am asking the ~inister of F:!.nance,because maybe something has happened in the meantime with respect to this loan that has been repaid and capitalized,although I do not see it or put into the financial statements although I do not believe it has.

But I would like the minister to address himself to it. 1 feel that-and here aga:l.n a rough calculation in the vicinity of perhaps $6 mill ion to $7 m:!.ll :1 on may be paid th:ls year on the interest t.lhich would he referable to $60 million or $70 million. So we are add:!.np.: a substantial amount of, at the very least if my supposition is correct, of Sl40 million or $150 million next year for the first time where the deht service fund will have to grapple with the interest on this $140 million or $150 million.

So that brings it up to $310 million, up to at least - no, not $310 million, it brings it up to $350 rn:l.llion, in the vicinity of $350 million next year that the debt service fund will have to grapple with for the first time. Now th:l.s is not something, 1-!r. Chairman, that I will emphasize aga:!.n. AN HON. 1-".EMBEF : 'MR. ~ARSHAI,L: How do you get the $350 million. Well,there is $197 million here. The capitalization of the , if I am right and I am doing th:ls by way of asking questions to the Minister of Finance. MR. NEARY: We t~ould add that to the original debt of the Province. Jo'1!.

YAJ!SHALL.!_ No. l<e will come to that in a moment. The acquisition of the shares from Brinco was financed on a $160 million loan from a commercial bank. MR. NF~Y : But that has been paid off. MR. l'!ARSBALt: Yes,but the poi.nt is it was financed on the basis of a two year loan, or for a two year period the interest was to have 10324

June R, 1976 '~'ape 32fl2 TB-2 ~'l'. MARSHALL : heen cRp·JtRl1?:Pcl. Tn other ••ords,the :Interest waR to he ar'clecl to the $ 160 million . }~_5\~Ll.~00n:_ Aclclecl to thP principal. ~-'!'· r'ATISJT.AT.L: A<1clecl to the princjpal, you see, for the f:!rst t>•o ye11rs and then :It was planned to put it on a lonr te~ basis or to repav it on another interim loan or some other - }11'. NF.Al'Y: The hond issue 1" on a lonp: term basis no~•. is it not? ~- 1-'A'PS ~T.I.: Hell , this :Is what I am asldnp: the minister. I fin not helieve it is on a Jon~ term basis nl'lw. I do not th:!nk :It is anm.•;w. It mav 1-e.

Rut even :If :It is now placed on a lonp: te!"TT' l can :! t is next vear t...,at ,.,e «re goinr to feel the full force and effect when the interest comes upon us. It is the ~ul] cleht. t'T>. ~'Al1SHAJ , J.: Not the r.l11] neht. Th1s :Is thP cleht for the --- ·---- acrmis:ltion for th(' shares of llrinco. "H. nnonY: That is on a five year debt. MR. ~ARSRALL: It was on a five year deht. Rut I - 1-'R. noonY: ----- It was on a f:!ve year programme, the first payment this year. Yes ,-•rell what about that loan from the Rank of Nova Scotia.

HP. nonnY: Th«t iR what He are talkinf( ahoHt, the first hank iSRUP th:fs VPar. Rut orip::lnalJy .it "t<•as nm y