Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Tuesday, April 17, 1973 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 56

.. ' April 17, 1973 The House met ftt 3:00 p.m. ~r. Sneaker in the Chair. Tape 1252 IB-1 ~fR. SPEAKER: Before cOfflfflencing this afternoon's proceedinftS it gives me great pl~Rsure to welcome to the galleries several councillors from the town co,mcil of the Town of Port Blandford in the district of Bonavista South. I h01>e that your visit here will be interesting and informative. On behalf of the members of the House of Assembly it is my pleasant duty to welcome you to the honourable House. HON. EDWAFD 1'fAYNARD: (~INISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTS): Thia is a short statement, Mr.

Speaker, which is being released jointly by the hon . .Tack Davis, Minister of Environment• and myself regarding the federal-provincial mapping survey of the province's forestry, wildlife and recreation capabilities and the global forest inventory which has just been completed for the island portion of the province.

This project ~as initiated in 1966 and has received major financial support from the Department of the Environment, The Newfoundland Forest Research Canter and th• Forest Management Institute of the Canadian Forestry Service together with Canada Line Inventory Staff provide considerable technical assistance, The project was expected to be completed by March, 1974 and has recently received a two year extension in order to complete a ~orest inve~tory for Labrador.

The results of the capability survey are available to t.he public in mai, fo1'111,at fifty cents per copy., from the Department of Forestry and Agricu]ture. Centralized maps are available from the Queen's Printer; Ottawa over the next yea~at fifty cents per copy. The

summary of the draft statistics report for the global forest inventory is available for limited distribution. The results of the inventory are summarized as follows: Number one, lands nov or recently forested which were judged to be capable _of producing stands of appoximately six cords of unbarked wood or more per acre were classified as productive forest land. There are 9.4 million acres of such land on·the island, The gross merchantable volume of all living trees, three point 5355

Apr1.l 17, 1973 Tar,e 1252 Il}-2 111.x inchA and over,o~..; .hiA iRlilnd, 1.s ll7 millt.on cords made UT' of 101 million corda of Aoft wood and 16 million cords of hard wood. Ownership of this land is as follows: Crown lands under lease and license would be mostly Bowaters and Price Brothers at 4.6 million acres for a total of 60.88 million cords. Unoccupied crown lands, 3.44 million acres for 38.8 million cords. Private and municipal lands , 1.23 million acr~s for 16.1 million cords. Federal and provincial reserves, .08 million acres for 1.18 million cords.

Number two, area and volume dropped considerably when only those lands now supporting stands of approximately six cords per acre are considered. There are 6.8 million acres of such land supporting a gross merchantable volume for 106 million cords, 92 million cords of soft wood and 14 million cords of hard wood. The ownership of that land is broken down under various headings. These volume estimates represent gross merchantable volumes. The estimates are reduced considerably when reductions are made for inaccessibility.

The project is continuing for the next two years as mentioned earlier for a complete global forest inventory in the Labrador area. REPORtg OF STANDING AND SELECT COMMITTEES: HO~. J.C. CROSBIF.: (f,qNISTER OF FINANCE): Mr. Speaker, I table the tobbaco tax regulations, 1973. There are copies here for all of the members who I know will be intensely interested in theee regulations. AN HONOl!R/\BLE l'-IE"fBER: Is he going to make a speech on it? !-flt. CROSBIE: No, not today. Tomorrow I would have. NOTICE OF MOTIONS: 5356

April 17, 1973 Tape 1252 IR-3 'HON. T.A. HYCXr-'AN: (T-'INISTf.R OF Jl '.STICE): I ~1.ve notice that· I will on tomorrow ask lenve to introduce a bill, "An Act Further to Amend Th.! Expropriation Act," HON. W.W. !-f.A.P.SH.ALL: (MINISTER WITHC'UT PO~TFOLIO): Mr. Speaker, this might be as 1100d a place as any. Before :Introducing this motion I would just like to point out that I am introducing it now so we will know where we stand. It is the government's hope to be able to complete most or greater bulk of the estimates tonight so I hope that we will not have to utilize the motion I am now going to propose.

However, so that I will .not have people at me all night as to whether we are going to sit past this hour or that hour, I would like to move that the House not adjourn at eleven o'clock today. Motton,that the House do not adjourn at eleven o'clock, carried. MR. E, ROBERTS: (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Are you doing it on division, Your Honour? 'HR. SPEAKER: On division. QUESTIONS: MR. MAYNARD: ~r. Speaker, I would like to table the answers to question, No.22 through to Question No.28 Mlt. HICKM~N: Mr.

Speaker, the answer to question 276 on tod~yh Order Paper,asked by the honourable the member for White !ay South; no copy of the report in question was presented to government. I received a report which . I delivered to the joint federal-provincial correction committees as part of their back-up material. The answer to question number 277,asked by the same honourable gentleman on todayii Order Paper,is that no action has been taken pending the outcome of the federal-provincial corrections committee study,. ,. The same answer applies to question 278 on today'3 Order Paper. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. NEARY: ~r.

Speaker., I would like to direct a question to the 5357 . - .. ·;.

Aprtl 17, 1973 Tape 1252 IR-4 honourable the Premier. Sir, it looks like in thie province we are going to have the distinction of hitting a new high in unemployment . this summer. I would like to kno~ what the Provincial C,ovemment with all their big talk about planning are going to do about the increase in unemployment in this province which indicates that we are headed for a record this summer, Sir. 'ffi. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island phrased the question with certain points of debate within the question.

I feel quite sure that further questions that he asks will be asked in the prop~r question form. He is making points within the question that are not really in order. !-1:R. NEARY: Will I ask the question again, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPeAKER: Yes. MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, I want to know what the - I am directing it to the honourable the Premier - what the Provincial Government are going to do first of all to cope with the increase or to cope with the unemployment problem that we already have and the increase in unemployment as forecast for the next few months ahead? HON. F.D. MOORES: (PRE~IER): Mr.

Speaker, I take exception to the increase of unemployment that is forecast for the next few months ahead. March was one tenth of one per cent higher than February,which is not good. We will make every effort,as we have been doing and will continue to do, to combat unemployment. It is a very difficult situation in this province. As a matter of fact,in discussion with the Minister of Regional Economic Development, onlyjust last week we were doing an analysis of exactly what the unemployment figure in Newfoundland represents because it is so very much higher than the other provinces.

Some six thousand are seasonal fishermen who work during the seven months orduring the spring and fall and summer. There are over three thousand as fnr as we could gather that were eitherwives or dau~hters of people who had permnnent jobs,who work in say fish plants or othe~ seasonal occupations as well, The figures are very, very hi~h. We 5358

April 17, 1973 Tape 1252 IB-5 do have seasonal ellll)loyment in this province. All that I can assure the honourable House ts that we will make every effort, Sir, to brin~ in programmes that will stimulate the economy this year and in the years to come. On motion that the House go into Committee of the Whole on supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. Read XVI, Rural Development. 1601-01. HON. JA!-'.ES REID (~INISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT): Mr.

Chainllan, a conanent first for honourable members of the committee: Figures shC"Wn in the right hand colU11111, under the heading, 1972-1973, revised col~ of · what was estimated to keep the old Departtne~t of Community and Social Development going until the end of 1972-1973 fiscal year plus expenses relating to the new Department of Rural Development. I suggest it might be well to keep this point in mind when looking at the figures of thia column, I am trying to make a comparison with the estimates for the new Department of Rural Development presently before the House. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Chairman, does the minister wish to make an opening statement? This is an new department. The minister assumed the portfolio on the first day of December or assumed a portfolio. He was 1n,1orn into this one of courae after the House passed legislation which they gave assent to I believe on April Fool's Day, appropriately enough. I wonder if the minister wants to make an opening statement as to what he envisages in a department - AN HONOURABLE ~BER: I cannot hear you. MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry! I will have to speak more loudly, Sir. It would help, Mr.

Chairman, I think if the honourable ~entlemen opposite would restrain their enthusiasm for my eloquent, lucid prose. It really is more difficult to soeak, Sir, when they are all yaimnering over there, unlike honourable gentlemen should be. As I was sayinp., the minister assumed a portfolio. He jointed the administration~as a memher of it, on the fist day of December I believe. 5359

Anril 17, 1973 Tane 1252 IB-6 He wn11 Rwnrn 1nto this rreRPnt portfolio nrrrof1ri11tely ono11P,h on April Foob1' Pnv, first nf /\r,rl 1 nr nn the- ~econd t1ny of April hecause the rlepartment did not come into ler;nl beinp, until April Fools' Dny, April 1st. Now, I wonder if the minister wants to make nn opening ~tatement to outline the ph1Josophy,if he wish , the policy, the nroP,raJTlffle, the ~eneral approach that he envisages being taken. I think we would all ar,ree in the committee, _Sir, and in the House that the Rural Development is an important area of governmental activity in this province.

This 111 the first time that we have had a department devoted specifically to this area of government activity. We never had this before in Newfoundland. We have had lots of activity but _no department before. It being the first time we have had a department, I wonder if the minister would wish to make a general statement of ohilosoohv or of overall policy or of programme opportunity to start. I would like to give him that MR. RIED: ~r. Chairman, this is a brand new department. Actually our department is just getting orp;an1zed. In fact we have not got our full department and our full staff at the present time.

We are still advertising for different trades, different people in our department. We were very, very late this year getting organized. 1:Jhpre Rural Development is concerned.we are trying to go out in various communities all over !lewfoundland,in the rural areas. We are trying to get the people organized out there. We are trying to get 11.ttle industries going. We are trying to help the small person to get or~anized and also to create a lot of lahour, wh1 ch we are doinP,. We ha• ·e created a tremendous lot of labour out 1n rurn1 areaR,p;ettinp the little plants going of various type11, fnctor1c!'l.

We nre a]110 workinr, with the general public and different orvmb:ntlonR throup,hout Ncwfoundl.-md. We are working with the!'ll.' peoflle Emel trying to come up with various ideas nll over Newfoundland which we can r,et worklnR on so that we can help to develop the little industries and also come up with various things throughout Newfoundland which we should be develoning. We have people workinr.: all ovet Newfoundland and Lahrador at the present time. Our field people are working and working 5360

•. April 17, 1973 Tape 1252 IB-7 with different organ~~ions to try to get organized and get all these little industries g_oing and come un with new sup.:gestions to get these people working and create a tremendous lot of more labour in rural areas were labour is very low. ~- ROBERTS: I take it, ~r.

Chairman, from the minister's remarks which I thought had some admirable points, that the chief ~im of the Rural Development Programme - I do not want to put words in his mouth but I do want to try to tmderstand what is motivating the administration in this instance - the chief aim of the department is to create,to use his word,labour. I would use the word jobs. I think the words would mean the same. Is that a correct

interpretation? That ia laudable in view of the fact that unemployment in Newfotmdland ha,: increased

whereas across Canada it has decreased. One can only welcome what can be done. I wonder if the minister could indicate - I realize that there is a subhead -down below for the Rural Development Authority which seems to be the main thrust in this field - I wonder if the minister could indicate to the committee;pleaae ·, Mr. Chairman, exactly where the Rural Development Authority stands. I would be interested in the statistics - I am sure that he has them there - of the number of jobs allegedly created_, of the number of dollars that have been allegedly loaned. I say allegedly. I have no doubt the money went out.

I have no doubt that it went out for the purposes for which it was intended. I have my doubts as to how nruch of a loan many of these thi~gs really are. I wonder if the minister could indicate the criterion on which these loans or whatever they are called are made. Perhaps.we could start with that. I assume the Rural Development Authority is the major programme within these estimates in 80 far 88 combating unemployment is concerned. So if the minister possibly could tell us a little of his b~ckground informat~on. I do not think that we have had a report from "Information Newfoundland" for a number of weeks now.

So it really would be very helpful. ~- RIED: Mr. Chairman, to the present time we spent $1,197,956 in 5361

Apr1.t l 7, l ')73 Tape 1252 111-8 rurRl loanR throughou~Ncwfoundland,helping different small industries in Newfoundland. VR. ROBERTS: $1.2 m-illion. Is that in round numbers? MR. REID: Yes, rou~hly. ~. RORE.RTS : That is ~-•enty some hundred dollars over the figure. !'4r. Chairman, how many jobs have allegedly been created as a result of t he expenditure of this amount of money? ~. REID: Mr. Chairman, I 8111 not sure of the number but I think it is somewhere in the vacinity of 1,500 ,jobs . According to reports that we were receiving it could go 5362

•. \ April 17, 1973 Tape 1253 PK - 1 much hi,-her than that. A lot of our loans that went out to various places they have eftll)loyed a lot more than they estimated and some are honoured but a lot more jobs have ·been created t.han they estimated when they made their applications to us. MR. ROBERTS: Well that is very heartenin~, Sir, which brings up a cou,,le of questions in a natural sequence that should be dealt with.

First of all, what checks,if any, are made to see when the money 1• lent out if in fact the jobs are createdr Secondly, could the minister speak to the point of are these jobs pennanent or are they by definition or by nature. not necessarily by definition, by nature temporary? I have heard this programme, leaving aside its philosphy, I have heard this programme in operation referred to aa being really nothing more or less than a provincial version of the federal government's LIP programme with one difference.

The federal government's LIP programme is admittedly and by definition and by action it is nothing more or less than a short-range, well it is the old make-work programme except it has a new wrinkle.1nstead of same bur~aucrat in Ottawa or in St. John's or somewhere else deciding to make some work and then the old WRA and WPA and all the thinRB that we saw in the Un~ted States,in the thirties, and in Canada, ·•nd in Newfoundland,in 1950,I believe it was this one,the federal LIP project ~roups request local initiative,aa the title ••ya.

I have heard suggestions made that the programme being administered through the Rural Development Authority has many of the aspects of LIP projects and that we will shortly, within six months or a year - there is no doubt people are at work now. I do not doubt that at all and I am very pleased to learn that more people are at work than were estimated originally. That will be good. But these jobs will evaporate in the sawmills. Much of this money, maybe as much as twhat?) eighty percent has gone into small sawmill operations.

MR REID: t would say, roughly. 1'-1R ROBERTS· Roughly eighty percent. a very larp,e proportion. ~ost of these, I understand, Sir, and there are men in the House who know far more about sawmilling, but most of these are small 5363

April 17, 1973 Tape 1253 PK - 2 push-bench operations nittering away at fringes of the crown lands or frin~es of private stands. Could the minister touch on that aspect of it, as well as the other question just because I have p;one on just to refresh him on it. What checks in fact are there? The money is paid out in advance . or paid out at the start of these periods. Now a man says that if he were to get the loan he would be able to create five jobs. What checks are there on that? What happens if he does not create the jobs? MR. RETD: Mr.

Chairman, it is only natural that we have to depend on , the field men a tremendous lot. We have a wonderful group of men working throughout Newfoundland and Labrador on this at the present time. The first thing the Leader of the Opposition said:- jobs created which may be very temporary and a possibility of another LIP programme - something like thatr Ninety per cent of the work that is created now through these loans is only getting on the move tor the sU111111er because the material is only coming to the mills in a great many cases.

Some of these people, and not only that but the various plants, canning plants and various carpenter shops that we are helping at the present time are only getting their materials together now. Where we created a lot of labour at the present time was when these people went into the woods, CI will use sawmills as an example, and I am very, very pleased over the results at the present time~ 19hen these people went into the woods we created labour.

Now the raw material is out in the diffePent communities and during the summer these people will be manufacturing this material and will be putting it on the market. and this will create labour for most of the sununer.

As far as our people back tracking or checking on these projects, we have people now working all over,going back through all the loans that we have made, checking back and seein~ at the present time, and some of these loans have only been out for a short while, We have people now out in the field who are going back checkinr, on these loans, seeing that theae people are working, checking and making sure that they r,et on the job and do something. Hut I have been very, very

.. April 17, 1973 Tape 1253 PK - 3 pleased with the results that are coming back from our field workers -~ and not only that some of our loans already coming in at the present time. MR. ROBERTS: Did the minister indicat1 or mean by his last sentence that some of the loans are already coming in. that some of the loans are in the process of being repaid? !'R. RF.ID: That is right. MR. ROBF.RTS: That brings up the next topic going down, it 1a a sort of a sequential list, Your Honour. What are the general terms? These are no-interest loans.

My understanding is that they are interest free in the -hands of the recipients which means that the provincial govermnent are -subsidizing them $8 for every $100 or $9 for every $100 per year,because it costs ws what, eight or nine per cent in round teni• to borrow money. So if we are giving a man $]J)OO for one year, we are giving him a subsidy of $80 or $90. That ia not outrageous but it is a subsidy and it ahould be noted. What are the terms of repayment? One year? Two years? MR. REID: These loans are over a five year period 1 free-interest loans

whereas they pay back a percentage yf what they receive of whatever their loan was, we will receive a certain percentage each year from these poeple. I might as well add too, he mentioned something just now that I did forget, and since travelling around Newfoundland and going around to the various places not only did we create jobs by the money that we gave out but I will assure him some of the bigger factories and some of the bigger plants in Newfoundland have never produced any 1110re material and got any more material out in their lives than what they have this year.

In the places that I have checked right down through the country, this is something that I have noticed, even though we will probably never get any credit for those jobs because we did not give loans to these people. MR. ROBERTS: I must say, Mr. Chairman, the minister has baffled me with his last comment. lf credit is due,then credit should be given. but if no credit is due,then no credit should be given. I would 5365

April 17, 1973 Tape 1253 PK - 4 venture to ·suggest tha~o credit will be given. I am very inte .rested in his remarks about sawmills because one of the problems which every administration. I suppose since we had sawmills,(what is that,sixty or seventy or even maybe more years ago?) one of the problems has been logging or saWlllilling. The market for lunber now is extremely good. I guess it has never been as high. I have no idea now what lumber is selling for but I am told it is roughly about the same value as gold.

If it be basic lmnber for house building, we are still importing into Newfoundland I would suggest far more than we are producing. I would suggest that we are importing far more than one-half of our lumber. How much of that can be produced in Newfoundland,! do not know. I have always been told that there are difficultie&, There is an operation that has sputtered around and about in my constituency in Rodington, Canada Lumber Company Limited ran the motivati;11g course and now it is Mr.

Peter Gardiner,who for a period of six months has been a enonom.ic adviser or special assistant or some such job to the Mi.nister of Finance. I have always understood from conversations with the people involved in that operation that the difficulties of lumber included such things as green lumber and volume production and access roads and access to adequate timber supplies. These people quite candidly tell me that they rather look upon the present programme as being a prescription for disaster. I hope that is not correct.

But this is the criticisms which I hear, and at this stage I would say to the minis~et that I think it is too early to judge, it will be a year from now that really he will have to account for the success or otherwise of his policy. I will tell him in quite a friendly fashion that he will be held .to account. lt was a ye.ar ago that we stood in the committee and said that the Minister of Fi5heries will be held to account a year hence Of course the Minister of Fisheries unfortunately is no lon~er with us or the gentle~an who was then Minister of Fisheries, he is no longer with us.

What conclusion,if any, follows I do not knm., but the facts are as T outlined them. 5366

.. April 17, 1973 Tape 1253 !'It - 5 But on this lumber thing.and that after all is the payoff in -~ a rural development authority,u we know it,because I suggest, Sir, we do not have a rural development programme in this province. I will come back to that but I do make that suggestion, What we have is a planned weighed not just amall industries but small p-rojects of the type of sa,-nnill_s.

Looking down the list which the minister has been good enough to table and in reply to questions asked him in the House, Sir, sawmills,his estimate,off-the-cuff there was eighty per cent, I would think that is a fair estimate. lf anything it may be a little low becaUBe al.moat all of the p-rojecta - I have a table here somewhere .. almost all of the ptojects fall into the sawm.illing category, Well here is a statement from Information Newfoundland, from the office of the Premier, December 21, 1972.

Now that was our Christmas greeting in Newfoundland, At that stage, according to the statistics put out on page five of this document. there were 128 firms or I suppose that means loans or projects approved, ninety-three of them were sawmilling, tWQ were barrel manufacturing. five were farm expansion, four were fish processing, one was paper manufacturing, two were food processing, seven boatbuilding, six were pulp wood harvesting, three finished lumber, one casket manufacturing.( 'lhere will be a steady demand for that, As the gentleman for Harbour Grace will tell ua, he will get us all in the end) one shoe repair,creating two jobs, one handicraft,creating one job, one transport,creating four jobs,and one woodworking,creating seven jobs.

Well I have not totalled them up but obviously the eighty per cent figure is not far off, I suggest that a number of things are going to happen and I put these four- AN HON. MEMB!R: Inaudible. MR. ROBF.RTS: I believe they probably will happen. I hope action can be taken to head them off. I think it could. First of all~I do not think this perfonnance will be repeated. I think we have seen the great initial burst of activity in the sawmill industry. There ~re un­ doubtedly many applications not yet dealt with. '1' he 111inister may care 5367

April 17, 1Q7J Tape 1253 PK - 6 to give us some indication on that. But generally under the authority as it was set up hefore the greatmergercame and restructuring applicationR were processed fairly expeditiously and were handled fairly quickly. So many men around Newfotmdland who for years have wanted to get a sawmill, thought they should be in the sawmilling business, the lumberin~ and logging and sawing business,were able to get into it and that is a good t~ing. The problem is, Sir, that I wonder will they be there next year.

People in the industry, I do not claim to have surveyed the industry, Yo~r Honour, and above all I do not claim to be any expert on the economics or the practical aspects of the sawmilling industry in Newfoundland but people in the industry whose judgment I respect teli me that they fear most of these men will not be there. That is why they make the comment to me that it is just another LIP project.

It is another political scheme and we will get a lot of quick flashy jobs relatively cheap, $1,500 per job is not expensive compared to say Come By Chance where we are up to several hundred thousand a job, but still Come By Chance will be a permenant job. The fear is that these jobs will be temporary. Now why do I gay that? Well the programme apparently does not deal with the gist of the problem. The problem again, and it is notable,Your Honou~. that nobody got into this or very few people have gotten into it in the past without substantial government assistance.

I suppose one could almost name the sawmill operators in Newfoundland. I do not know them all but there iR ~r. Lewis Griffen who has a big operation in at the foot of Gambo Pond there; Mr. Edgar Baird, I think is running a large operation out near Gander; Mr. Georp,e Sexton I believe is in behind Terra Nova, in off the Trans-Canada Highway, but he has had P,overnment assistance, I do not begrudge him a penny of it. I do not know if Mr. Baird and Mr. Griffin have. There has been the Lundrigan Bowater operation down there, WelJ, we know a bill went through the House with substantial government 5368

•. April 17. 1973 Tape 1253 PK - 7 assistance there. There inay be many others, I have just named.a few that come to mind, and there are doubtlesslY many others • • But my point is, Sir, these are -large operators. These are people with technical expertise. These are people with substantial sums of money involvPd. Row then are these small people going to make out? And I quite genuinely wonder. I hope they can because this could mean a lot of employment.

A ~ot of men could find work going into the woods and cuttinR down trees and dragging them out and sawing them up into two-by-fouis or plough-and-tongue,whatewr form of rough lumber it is, But what does the minister see for wood supplies, Your Honour. for these areas, for these men? Are they all cutting on cr:c,wn land? What security do they have of-tenure?. What does he see to deal with the problem of green lumber versus kiln-dry lumber?

I undentand this is• major aspect, people building houses are advised not to use green lumber because the green lumber I gather when it get• in the houae end the heat come• on, the houae is heated,of cour•e,and in a year or two two the lumber begins to buckle. Now I am not a builder but I mtderstand that is what does happen, and one is not well advised to use green lU111ber. Sut tht!!ae places will be producing green lumber. It will be cut one month, sawn the next and sold the next. I guess that is as green as lumber can be.

What drying it has(it never sees a kiln or 'anything) therefore, of course, is only what it gets being dragged out of the woods and maybe then ls in a storage yard for a week or a month or two or three months and .then on from there. The question, Your Honour, of marketing: Are we making sure that these people are getting, assuming that they can get the wood supplies, Your Honour, and assuming that they can overcome the green versua dry lumber probl~m"' that latter may not be 110 much of a problem, because of course we must have lumber, and all over Newfoundland we are short of lumber.

In En~lee,last yeaT (Englee is fifteen miles by road from Roddicton and there are enough trees around Roddicton to float the ''Queen Mary ") in Eriglee they were bringin~ lumber across by boat from Pacquet and Woodstock, wherever 5369

April 17, 1973 Tape 1253 PK· - 8 it is being cut, I mean that is absurb,but they were. So maybe the lumber will be sold green or dry, but what about marketing? , We have a situation that I know· of in my district where it is always the little fellow p,ets it in the neck. He is cuttinp, the lumber and sawinp. it on his little push bench, and pretty hard brutal work it is in the woods in the winter cutting and then sawinP, it and all of that. It is not pleasant work, hard physical labour. He is selling it to a company, and the men think they are getting a good price, and I suppose they are.

It is not as good as they thought it was, after I explained to them what that company was selling it for here in St. John's, and the only expense that company had to pay was the freight from the area to St. John's• That is a figure that can be publicly checked becatJse, of course, all 9f this wood now moves by CNR boat, the coastal boats. My friend from Twillingate could speak about freight rates, they are high, but I mean it is a verifiable and a known fact. What steps are being taken to ensure that people in this position are not being put under?

Beeause there these people do not have management skills, as we know the term. They are competent managers, competent going into the woods and cutting the trees and getting them out and sawing them. But then what happens? These are all errors. Now I have spoken quite a bit about sawmilling but I think it is the major part of it. The minister says, in a round figure, I do not hold him to it, I think it was my estimate originally, about eighty per cent. Well it is the significant part.

If it were not for the sawmill compon~nt in this programme,the Rural Development Authority programme would be a very small quintal of fish indeed. Could the minister touch on these points? He is a very practical man who knows far more about the practical aspects of this than I ever shall. MR. RF.ID: Mr. Chairman, 1110st all of these people who were helped in givin~ these loans, we are checking through forestry and to see how much ~aterial is available. We are hopinp, that these people are givin~ Ufl the true facts and the places that we have helped these pepple 5370

•. April 17, 1973 Tape 1253 look very promis1ng,o~ the next five year  to ten years in a great many areas. As far as the r.reen lumber is concerned, we always had Rreen lumber all over Mewfoundland and we will alway11 have it. Sometimes we build a home where materials are very green but normally during the summer it dries out very, very quickly, especially gre~ material for lumber, it dries out very quickly. I do not think that is a question that we should worry too much about because of green material.

Because there have not been too many of the small fellows drying material, quite often a lot of our homes are certainly using green material. There 1 ·one thing we are doing and that is, ve are helping the 11111&11 mills that are just about at a standstill becauae it was not economical to operate with the equipment that they already had. One thing we have improved aad that 111,we have given thee people a lot better equipment. Not only tha~ when they sold it, rough material, we ~lao had plainers go in there, matchers_ go in, and like he has aaid_just now, plough and tongue, squarage any moldings, various types.

These people now will get twice a much for their lu;mber as when they sold it last . year or the year before because a great percentage of our people now are making a finished product out of their timber that you and I can use in our homes anywhere. Not only that,we are not leaving too much in the woods. The rest that we do not uae,aa far as timber for sawmills, the rest we are bringing out for pulp wood. I hope that answers the · queationa. MR. ROBERTS: I aee, Mr.

Chairman, well it is not parliamentary to aay what I waa going to say, so I will not aay it, Would the miniater wish to speak on another aspect that I. ra~sed? Sir, we had a lot of these applications this year and they have been dealt with. Look let me say with respect to what the minister has said, he 'l!llly be right, I do not know. I hope he is right. The information that I get is that · 5371 •

April 17, 1973 Tape 1253 PK - 10 hP h prohably wronp. We will wftit a ye11r and wilt APP hecau11l" that 1A thr only wny WP can find out whPthPr the11r frars are ~roundless or whethP.r,as the rninistPr aaid and as I ~Pnuinely hope,it is true that these things work out, I hope they do, But the interesting thin~ is that it is has never worked before. Now maybe the minister can succeed in doing what nobody else - MR. RF.ID: Well I hope so. MR. ROBF.RTS: Well I hope so too because jobs are jobs.

I stand to be shown, and one-shot LIP projects drive the employment totals up to here, do not serve as development but serve a purpose. The same purpose they served in the United States in the thirties when they poured milk out. The honourable gentleman's deputy minister who was forme~ly the Deputy Minister of Agriculture, he may be familiar with make work projects as they exist in the States where they killed pigs to keep the price of hogs up, and they poured milk out,the government paid men to pour the milk out. Money can be used for many purposes.

Anyway_as I say, we shall have to wait and see in a year from now and 11ssuming .the minister is still in the portfolio, still in the cabinet and still in the House, we •hall have to hold him to account because it is then that the programme will be measurable. At present all we know is that a number of projects have been approved and $1.2 is being put out on loan on fairly generous terms,but that is fair enough and jobs have resulted. Well, fine! That is no achievement at all . I think the minister would agree with me, anybody can do that.

I mean I could stand out on the steps of Confederation Building here with $1.2 and lash it out and I could have people at work too. The question is, and by this the minister and the programme and the policy will have to be judged. whether it workA a year from now, whether the sawmills go under. I see the minister. I think he is nodding hi& assent. I think that is a fair and reasonable statement to make. But the minister did not design this policy, he inherited it. I do not think it has been improved recently but it is too early to jud~e. much too early to judge on this particular one.

I devotely hope it is not another 5372

.. April 17, 1973 Tape 1253 PK - 11 glorified LIP project. But I wonders Now along thoee·ffnes, Your Honour, we have had a lot of these projects this year, the moat recent figures we have are 300 projects have been approved for a total of ~200 jobs. The minister tells us now it is :J,500 - by the way the minister did SAY $],200 have been loaned out for isoo jobs, I noted it down when he said it to the committee a few minutes ago. But that is correct,,is it not? MR, REID: $],200? MR, ROBERTS: I am sorry $12,000,000 - $1.2 million roughly and it produced rougly 1500 jobs? MR. REID: Yes. MR. ROBERTS: Ia that it? MR.

REID: Yes. MR. ROBERTS: Well maybe the minister could explain. Re answered a question that was No. 54 on the Order Paper, and he told us then that there were 297 projects, l,209 jobs created, a total value of grants and loans of $1.995 millions, actually it was marginally under $2. million, it was $3,047 under the $2 million mark..

That is the infomation, I do not have the date when the minister answered the question, Your Honour, but it was question No. 54 on some Order Paper of this session and the minister did table the answer, 297 firms of which 210 were sawmilling, ].209 jobs and $1,958,000 in loans and $37,000 in granta,. Now that information was as of the fifth board meeting, ~ndeed the question as of the board meeting on February 20. Yet here we are a couple of months later, there are only 1500 jobs and there is only $1,2 million. There is a discrepancy there. The minister may comment on that.

But the important point that I wanted to ask him on, does he think we will see more of these sawmilling things next year or does he think we will see a fall off in this? ·There are only a certain number of men who want to go sawmilling, there is only a finite amount of trees available for sawmilling purposes in Newfoundland. 'MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, I would not like to sit in this honourable House, not getting up and referring to the sawmill business. 5373

Tape 1253 - n-u That is my business and a part of my limbs has been left into-it since I started. I think there should be a ~-reat deal of pride for the people of this province to have su~h a thin~ as a rural development for the sawmillinp,. After starting business in 1942-1943,buying lumber from all over,from Kin~s Point ri~ht throu~h the island, having some experience of doing exactly the same thing, probably not as rural development are doing, backing up people in sawmills. giving them such as trucks and diesel motors etc.

If someone had to tell me possibly that John Doe would not do a thing, he would not even get out of bed, I would have found out with my bit of experience that the men that I would have dealt with were only looking for a chance to attain a higher market. Possibly a lot of people in this province were not reluctant to do.

I find myself in a positior, and in a government, it could have been the previous one, possibility if they had adhered to probably some of the things which were sairl in a llD!lber convention which was on in the Sir Robert Bond Aduitori~ about ten or twelve years ago, such people as mentioned on the floor of this House here,Mr. Mark pay, George Sexton, these people were there at the same ti~. We were led to believe there was not any timber in the province of Newfoundland to operate sawmills on. I found it quite difficult to understand. I could not see eye-to-eye at that time.

I always claimed and Iknew it,that it was · here. Finally, we have fo1.md out since the rural development had started, right from my hometown that you could lug probably 5,000 or 6,000 pieces of spruce timber from twelve to fourteen and sixteen feet long. five inches in the top, within a shoulder-spell from my back door. Now somewhere along the lines in this past twenty-three years someone has been napping. I found myself in a position starting out with nothing but a push table, as we all talked about, losing some of my limbs to come to the place.

Slnce then I have employed as hip,h as forty-ei~ht and fifty-two men. No later than this morning, theTe are five men ~one to work,on payroll. I do not have any money fro~ rural development. I do not want any. I would have made enough with the push table. 5374

April 17, 1973 Tai,e 1254 IB-1 to ,-et thi8 other fellow to work, lf those i,eo~le who are in the ll11r11l f1rvrlopm,.nt f1Ut the right 11ttf.tudf! tow11r<I ft, they will he doing the same thing. I have confidence enough in a lot of them that I kno,., who will be, because right now,at the present time, I see lumher passing alon~ by my store. .I have hrought it myself. It is only yesterday that I gave an order for 120,000 feet for $125 a t .housand, and give us a thousand to saw. As far as speaking on green lumber is concerned, since 1956 I never saw a bit of kiln-dry lumber come from the Mainland.

I would prefer to tell you right in this honourable House now that the timber that we have here in our own province is far ahead of what we are bringing from the !-fainland. .I say it again. A lot of it that we are bringing in is only jmik and we are CO!llt'elled to grade-mark it. I could not with a clear conscience put a grade mark on timber and lumber to go into a house if it is coming from the Mainland.

I woul~ not have the conscience, If 1 took my next door neighbor or a man out to.build a house and had him out in my lumber yard, I would have to _ turn my back if I had to sell it to him, that which is c0111ing in grade marked. You are compelled to take about twenty per cent of this material. We have it here in the Province of Newfoundland. 1 see the honourable member for Bonavista North openly smiling and he has plenty of it down in Indian Bay too. I have bought a lot of it from it. The Rural Development will probably do something down there for you too.

The Rural Development ia only going to he as stronr as the weakest link. 1-m.. M~PTIN: This intrigues me, Sir. We heard yesterday about an agency cal led The ~ari time Lumher Bureau ,,,hich we were su~sidizing to the tune of S9,000. One of the purpose~ of this bureau I understand was to supervise or regulate the grading of timber. I wonder if the honourable member is suggesting that we are subsidizing an agency that is forcing a substandard product upon us? 'f-fR. WTLl-ON: Well, in answer to the honourable member for Labrador South, 5375

April 17, 1973 Tape 1254 IR-2 I do not know whnt ~e~~re subsidizing. I nm ~ning to tell you right here now,w:fth a clenr conscience,that if we arP Aubs1.d1.zinr. any such th1.nr, as that thnt, t,•e should get to~ether and see somethinp, about what we are doinp:. As far as I am concerned, myself, what I am speaking of here on the floors of this Rouse I can hack up. I backed this up about twelve years ago in the Sir Robert Bond ~ud,itorium when they had a meeting.

When I went down in Bloomfield, down in Bonavista Bay,and a certain firm wanted to buy 120,000 feet of lumber and they would not buy it but went and brought it from the Mainland and brought it down here and sold it and would not use our own materials, why would I not get on the floor to advertise as far as the sawmilling is concerned. I can see it in my own home town now. I have driven as far as Indian Bay this last three weeks. As far as I am concerned in depression times, everywhere we went we saw piles of timber. People had to do something to make a living.

It would do one's heart good to look at and see the timber cut wherever you·go and the sawmills that are turning out the lumber and quarries and the lumber that is being sold. Do not let them fool you anymore. This is why all of the Mainland lumber started to come in here. We were told by Central Housing and Mortgage that you had to use kiln-dry lumber, and it came in from the Mainland as it came out of the river to the saw and passed right on through.

It is a lot of water from the Mainland that they are after selling us down here, not timber because I have paid a lot of freight for the water that I have brought in from the mainland,when we have it here in our own country. If it were only subsidized we could do somethinp; about it. In the series of sn~'lTTills that I have gone through and I saw, I can assure you that these people are interested.in.making a living. I went in Burgoynes Cove about ten, twelve or fourteen years ago. There was one sawmill operating down there. r.o down in Burgoynes Cove now, it is a beehive of activity. 5376

•. •. April 17, 1973 Tape 1254 IR-3 I claim for this rural development! if it does nothing else only ~ive those wh~ have initiative to work, to bring up our ceneration,to let' them Ree that something can he done - we can put them into all of the universities we like or put them all to the vocational training schools but somewhere along the line we have made the biggest mistake of our lives, Our vocational schools are already built all over Newfoundland Island. Take them and put them in apprenticeship, not the vocational training school.

They come out of vocational training school and I have to say right here now, to go out and tum arowtd and build a home,they are lost. They have the initiative to do it but they have not got the training, If they are put into apprenticeship with Rll the manufacturing of peo~J.e around the island and the government pays so much of their pay and I,'if I had them there,_would have to pay the other part., therefore I would be interested in trying to get them to do something because part of it was coming out of my pocket. I want to tell this honourable House here now that we are altogether wrong.

We have heard it on these floors about education, university, vocational training schools. I am very much afraid that in a lot of the ~~~~ti~a~_tr~in1:__ng schools probably that we are after miasjng out, GP.t down to our grandmother's knee or our parents knee or out in the garden or somewhere else where they can show ua something to do. This is what we are up against, Then we find out that someone is disgruntled over Rural Development, I wish myself that I could tum around and go out and go over this province with Rur,-1 Development,with money to turn to and scatter out. I can find the men who can go to work.

A lot of them years and years ago who worked and built their homes and cut saw logs,and I bought them, in their naked feet or just about it1 are still there today to train the younger gJneration. It is Ul> to me as a member of the government and up to the members of the opposition and all thoRe in authority to see that that is done and not to get u~ and fight with each other because we try it, 5377·

April 17, 1973 Tape 1254 TB-4 The only man who does nothing wrong never does a thing in his life ·. He is not ~oing to do anythinp. wrong because he has to get started. I!ere is wh.ere ~re are to. I came into this honourable House not for what I was goin~ to attain or get out of it, not to make rnyselt rich, not to get any publicity. I came into this honourable House only and solely for the district and the province which I helong to, to see if something cannot be done for our coming generation. I am going to tell you we have a very short time to do it. That is the-way that I see it here.

I could have cried when I stood up to that window and saw a bunch of college students going down around and the Leader of the Opposition carrying a placard. If he took a placard and took them and told them about the sawmills we are talking about now or something, we would be a lot better off. I look at the honourable gentleman over there from Bell Island. All of the things that he has talked about in this honourable Houae were not from his heart. He knows a lot he is up against is only probably just to be for argument or probably to rise up a fellow like me who is a little bit hot tempered.

I know as far as the honourable gentleman is concerned and there is no honourable member in this honourable House that cannot see that these are facts. We 'h'ave to get back and start over new. The wheel turns slowly. When it turns slowly it will grind faster,and grind ourselves into a way of life that our coming generation will go out and light a torch for the gene~ations yet to come. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the honourable gentleman who just took his seat did not provoke me but there was a lot of merit believe it or not in what the honourable member said.

When he talk about the LIP nrogramn,e and the Rural Development Programme, Sir, what we are really talking ahout is get.ting back to the old ways of doing things. ~anual labour really is what we are talking ahout. There are people who may say, "well, the member for Port de Grave -ts living in the past. There is a generation gan." There are people who would argue that, Sir, and who could probablv win the argument, could prove that this is so, that the youni oeople today do not want to do what their forefathers 5378

... April 17, 1973 Tape 1254 TB-5 had to do. 5ir, I do not know if this honourable House realized it or not but under the LIP Programme which is supposed to be labour-intensive and the Rural Develonment Programme which is meant to be labour-intensive that what we are really doing is encoura~ing people to get back to manual labour,because that is the only way you can have industry whether it be big or small, whether it be light or heavy. The only way that you can have a labour-intensive industry is for it to be a manually operated kind of industry, Mr.

Chairman, could I have the door closed over there becauae one thing I would never - I am like Premier Smallwood in this regard, Sir - one thing I have never learned how to do is to speak in this House and listen to a conversation that is going on outside. I have not been able to master it. It is very distracting, Mr. Chairman. We have had too much of that in this session of this honourable House. It is time to . put it to a stop. It was not the chief that was outside making all of that noise.

So, as I listened to the honourable member for Port de Grave there, Sir, I could not help hut agree with some of the points that he made. The trouble is, Mr. Chairman, that the member could be accused of living in the past. We are living in an age today vhirh is a technological age, an age of automation. When you talk about business and industry, Sir, you are talking about machines rather than people. That is unfortunate but it is a fact of life. I did not make it up. It is there. We have to live with it.

The thinking of our young people today is geared up to the technological age and not the age that the honourable member talked about. Therefore, the Rural Development Programme - he is quite right, the member is quite right - the Rural nevelopm'ent Programme will only work for those who have t~e initiative and who want to buckle down and work hard to 111Ake _a succes~ of their particular project. Whether it be a sawmill or whether it be some other kind of industry, they have to work at it, 5379

Aprll 17. 1973 Tay,e 1254 IB-6 The honour ab le member is agreeing with me. Othervfee the Rural Develooment Prop,ramme'~ill be a failure. You have a certain number of people left in this province who are prepared to buckle down and slur it out, ~ake a go of it. They are honest,decent Newfoundlanders. If thev bot"row money from the minister's deTni.r::ment, they will work hard to make a go of it an~ they w11 l make every attempt to pay back that loan because they are honest, decent Newfoundlanders.

You have another category of people that I suhmit to the minister have no experience whatsoever in business and industry. When they come to the minister's department for a loan to set up a business, this is their first venture into the business world. They are not businessmen, Sir, whether they care to admit it or not. They have been used to being out in the woods cutting and sawing wood. Oh, there is the helicopter going. Is the Premier aboard that now?

They may be used to being out and they may only have grade three or four education but hard workers out in the woods working away, working at various other vocations. They know nothing at all about business but they feel this is a good opportunity to become independant and get in business for themselves. · They come to the honourable minister to look for a loan.

Sir, in this day and age when you have unemployment insurance that has to be deducted from the payroll, Canada pension plan, income tax and all the other deductions that have to be made, Sir, I would say nine cases out of ten these people who have no experience in business at all do not realize what they are getting themselves into. Their intentions are honourable; Sir, and they are very sincere in what they are trying to do.

I would suggest, Mr. _Chairman, that that kind of applicant needs a little more counseling than they are getting at the present time, that they have to indicate that they know how to keep a simple set of records and a sf.mole set of hooks. This is a necessary evil, Sir. It has to be done. They have to know, as my honourable colleague the Leader of the Oppo~ition stated,where · the markets are. They have to know how to borrow money from finance comt>anies or the banks, how'to pay the interest. Ift other words, Sir, 5380

•. April 17, 1973 Tape 1254. IB-7 they have to be a~le to do a cost analysis of the whole operation. Now, Sir, I am the last person in this world in this honourable . House to sav that you have to be ~n accountant. That is what Iwill be accuserl of. I can ,see the wheels grinding over there in the Minister of Justice's head. I am not saying that at all, Sir. They have to have the basic ftmdamental idea, the fundamental principles of how to do a cost analysis of the operation whether it be big or small, how to keep a set of books. Maybe a man's wife can keep the sat of books.

Maybe he has a daughter with grade eleven but somebody has to do it. If there is nobody available to do it, the company, the individual, they have to pay for this. It will just be another drag, another burden on the person that is trying to get himself established in business.

So, I wouid sincerely suggest to the honourable minister that - I w~uld reconanend this - that these new­ comers, these applicants who have never had any e:iq,arience whatsoever in the busine~s world.and I am not talking about a business as big as the one my honourable friend the Minister of Finance is associated with, I am talking about an individual. I am not talking about the millionaire downtown, Joe Goldstone or that crowd, I am talking about a poor little, old fallow, sincere, honest, conscientious,hard worker that wants to make a go ot it. He should be shown how.

I believe,so far !rom the inquiries that I have made,that the minister's department has failed or is weak - I will not say has failed - is weak in ~his area. I think the minister would be well advised to set up a sort of a cotmaeling service for these applicants who have no experience or treining in the type of thing that I spoke about. Now, Sir, the minister said that there has been 1,500 jobs created so far in his department. I hope that he is right, Sir. I agree with the Leader of the Opposition that there is no way of telling at the moment how successful this Rural Development Authority is going to be.

There is not way. We can only wait for a year or two and see what sort of a track record the department will have after twelve 5381 ·

April 17 • 1973 Tape 1254 IB-8 mon.ths or a year or so. One thing that we do know is that we have the highest unemployment rate in the whole of Canada. We were told today, S1.r, by statistics that were revealed,that the figures of ~arch sl-,owed one-tenth of one per cent increase over Fehruary and nine-tenths of an increase over varch a year ago. ~r. Chairman, already the university students who finished their examinations are now entering the lahour market.

Within the next few weeks, Sir, studente over at the Colleges of Trades and Technology and Fisheries as well ae the district vocational schools will be -increasing . the number of job seekers. Then we will ·have the highschools, the senior students of the high schools,in a very short time, around the end of June. They will be out looking for jobs.

So, I do not think that I need to say anymore about that, Sir, except that any move, anything,whether it be big or small, whether it may look insignificant or trivial at the moment,any move by the government to try and cope with thi~ increase in unemployment, the situation that we already have where we have the highest unemployment and we have others entering the labour market, anything, Sir, that the government or that minister can do to plan, to cope with this flood of people that will be entering the labour market and hitting our economy over the next few weeks, I would say is a step in the right direction.

We will not know for another twelve months or a year whether or not the progra~me is going to be successful. I know the minister will agree with me that there are going to be failures. That does not worry me one bit, Sir, not the slightest. It would not be the first time a government had a failure whether it was the previous administration or the present administration. There are going to be failures. There are goinP, to be embarrassing situations.

The department will be conned and taken for a ride but I hope, Sir, that the prin~iples and the enthusiasm and the idealism that the minister hns at the moment and his officals have at the moment, I hope because of the fact that they may be taken a few times that they 5382

•. ~- April 17, 1973 Tal)e 1254 IB-9 will not become caee.hardened,Secause there is a tendency in that business, especially if word gets out to the taxpayers throur,h the businessmen, well, somebodv took the T)epartment of Rural nevelopment for a ride, they will boast ahout it and they will go out and talk arout it. The minister's colleagues will be on his neck. They probably have been already. I could give the .minister a few cases where I think they made hasty decisions but I am not in the slightest bit worried about it.

For instance, I could tell the minister about how a couple of individuals came to his department to borrow money to buy ~quipment to saw logs. The amount that they needed was upwards of $6,500. -They were loaned $3,500 from the Rural Development Authority. The equipment cost I think somewhere in the vicinity of $5,000 .and they had to make some changes in the equipment, put some cable on it and so forth. They only had $1,650 to make a down payment. The other money had to be used to take care of their transportation costs and put cables on the skidders and so forth, They were forced to go to a finance company.

They borrowed from the finance company $5,000 at a very high interest rate, '11tey were employing seven people, five of whom, Mr. Chairman, we were told by the Minister of Social Services came off welfare. They had provision made to hire seven more. They have seventy cords of wood still in the woods. The minister probably knows the case of which I am speaking. It does not make any difference, Sir, I am only using it as an illustration of what can go wrong when an applicant is trying to borrow under t~is programme. It is not a criticism. I do not want the minister to think it is a criticism.

It is a ktnd of a situation where if theee two individuals llere given a little more counseling and a little more guidance, I think they prohably would have made a success of it. What the Rural Development Authority should hnve done in this case instead of only advancing or giving a part of the loan, they should have given the full amount because 5383

April 17, 1973 Tape 1254 IB-10 they coulcl have lell$ them up to $10,000. They only lr-nt them $3,500. They forced them to p:n to a finance comoany in order to p,et the e')ui::iment that they neecle<l. It is orobahly costinp: them a.,entv or ti-,entv-f:l.ve. per cent interest. The·,r coulcl not cope with it. Thev could not meet their costs. As a result I think their e~uipment was repossessed. They can only p.et it back if the minister will make the additional money available so that they can get back in the woods again. This is going to happen.

I hope that the officals of the department will not become case-hardened,because this will happen. Another thing, Mr. Chairman, I think the minister should set as his objective diversification of industry because right now the dep·artm,ent are putting most of their eggs in one basket. I think seventy or eighty per cent of the loan so far has gone to sawnrllling, as good as that is, Sir, I believe myself that the sawmill operators probably detected a little bit of a milch cow also, that some of these sawmill operators would have had to spend the money anyway.

Instead of spend:f.ng their own now they have come to the Rural Development Authority, they have borrowed the money and they are expanding or buying a new piece of equipment at the expense of the taxpayers. I do not know if you can control that. I doubt very much if you can. Nevertheless, I would encourage the minister to branch out in other fields and do not be afraid to gamble. Have the courage, when you are faced with a proposal that looks half reasonable, that looks like it might work; take_ a chance on it. Do not be scared of it.

Do not let the Minister of Fin;mce come down on the mininter's head like a ton of bri.ck because he is spendinr: too much money. You cannot spend enough money in this kind of thinp,. We have been a long time waiting for a Rural nevelopment Authority in this province. I tried it myself over on BP.11 Island •. I.have the auditor general down on my neck now. In some money that was left over from the disposal of the OOSCO Access.we did precisely the same thing that the minister is doinr now. We lent. We set up a Board of Trustees 5384

~. •. Anril 17, 1973 Tape 1254 and lent money to t'.f.OPl• to buy cattle and to buy boata to go fishing, to build Rreenhouses, to aet out their garden, to set potatoes and turnips and this sort of thing and to try to rehabilitate themselves. I am all for this, vr, Chairman. I hope the minister does not allow the programme to get off the reels because I think it is a good progra11U11e. It can do a lot of good in the way of establishing small industry, cottage industry in this province.

I do not think it is going to solve our unemployment problem by a long shot but at least people in the rural areas will have something to do. It ia a lot better, ~r. Chairman, to give these people something to do to make ~hem productive than to have them sitting down in front of the television all day long watching "Magistrate's Court" or "As the World Turns" ·because, Sir, you become demented after a while doing that. They become viewers instead of doers. I think this is what the Rural Development Programme can do. It can make people do things with their hands. Believe me•, Mr.

Chairman, there are a lot of people in this province vho do not mind doing things with their hands. Over on Bell Island last year, Sir, sixty-five men went out and dug a water line by hand, sixty-five men who are ordinarily on "'elfare. They got their first '!)ay check in six or seven years. The first day that the,y were down in that drain they had blisters on their hands and their backs.were stiff. r.o there a couple of weeks after, after they got a couple of pay checks, Sir, after they got away from welfare, and 'take a look at them. They did not complain.

They were very proud of the fact that they were working again and doing something productive. I have ar~ued that in this House ever since I have been here. ~-Iha~ you have to do, Sir, you have to get people doing things that they know how to do. There a lot of reor,le in our outports who will take advantage of this pro~ramme who are unskilled, uneducated. They have a marine background, 5385

April 17, 1973 Ta1'e 1254 IB-12 They were fishennen a lot of tht>M. Sir, the thin~s that the ac:aclemics and the intellects arr trying to .foi<;t on tl~P<;e r 0 o.,1P th<>v dn not knm: hot.• to rlo them. You have to let these neonle do the thinp.s that they know how to do. This is the only wav there ,,•i 1 l he a !'!uccess of it. lt is the only way they will be hannv doin~ it.

You can take them into all the adult upgrading centers vou like and all of the retraining centers you like, Sir, and they will go there as long as they are getting the generous C~nada ~anpower assistance but then they will come out and they will go back doing what they are used. to. The minister probably knows that. They will go back in the woods or they will go back fishing or they will go back to the soil,planting a few vegetables. We have to put these people·in a position where they are doing things they traditionally know how to do.

Of course in conjunction with that programme, Mr~ Chairman, you have to carry on your ~rogramrnes at the university, the College of Trades and the vocational schools. I am not professing for one minute that you should do away with these programmes. They are necessary, badly needed. How are we going to get the expertise to man the big industries in Ne~Tf'oundland if we do not carry on the prograll'll'lles We are dealing with two different groups of people in this province, Sir. 5386

•. •. April 17, 1973 tape no. 1255 Pltge 1 - MRW 'We are dealing with the middle aged, more matur~ type of person in the rural area, never had the advantage of a university education, ' probably never got beyond Grade V or Grade VI and there are still a lot of them around. This is the problem. There are still quite a few of them around. Then you have the new generation, Sir, they have blossomed out and attended the vocational schools, the Technical College and the Fisheries College, whd were boru and raised in the technological age.

They do not want te hear tell of this, going out and digging a ditch by hand, with a pick and shovel. I do not blame them. The era la probably over, Mr. Chairman, but in Newfoundland we till have a lot of these people and we jut cannot ignore them. MR. CROSBIE: Build tunnels. MR. NEARY: Tunnel? Well the Minuter of Finance may think that that ia a big joke but, Sir, ve have at the preent time on Bell Island about seventy-five per cent welfare and these men are getting older and they only know how to do one thing, Mr. Chairman, and the Minister of Finance can joke about it all he likes.

They only kuav how to do ·one thing and that is dig tunnels. That ia what they spent their life at. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! MR. NEU.Y: That ia all _they know how to do, Sir. If that la all they know how to do, what do you do with them? Do you leave them on welfare to rot or do you put them to work digging _a tunnel. This ia what I have been arguing about, Sir. You would have to use a certain amount of equipment. Of course you would. I am talking about a labour-intensive project. It makes good sense. If I had time to debate it in this Houae,I think I would convert the Minister of Finance to my way of thinking.

I think we should. MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: There would be a meeting of something or other. That would be the unholy alliance, Sir. 5387.

April 17, 1973 Tape no. 1255 Page 2 - MR. ROBERTS: Then the Minister of Finance would brine his contributio~s to us. HR. NEAP'l: Yes my colleague says that if I keep on going I may convert him. But, Sir, the Minister of Rural Development in my opinion is on the right track. He is on the right track and I wish that I had been in the position to do what the minister is doing. I think it has a great future, Sir. MR. HICKMAN: (Inaudible) • MR. NEARY: If we ever get what through? Is the hon. Minister of Justice inferring that I should sit down and keep quiet? Sir, I have a ff!!'I ideas on this.

I will be waiting next year, twelve months .from now, to get a progress report from the minister. I hope that the programme will be successful. There is a lot riding on it. There are a lot of our people depending on it. I think the minister needs to do a little more public relations on it, sell the idea to the people. I am not suggesting that George McLean do it. I think the minister is quite capable of doing it himself because Newfoundlanders understand that kind of language. They do not like to be bullied and high-pressured by public relations people.

All the minister needs is mature, honest and hard--working Newfoundlanders working for his department, not with pieces of paper that they can wave around under somebody's nose and say; "Look, I got my degree and the world owes me a living, I have no intention of working for it." What the minister needs in that department are counsellors who came up the hard way themselves, who are raising a family, trying to pay off a mortgage and trying to cope with the high cost of living. You do not need any grandiose title for that. The people in the rural areas do not understand that. Mr.

Chairman, I will tell the minister now what would happen if.he hired these experts. Do you know what they would do? They would go into the rural areas and report back to the minister and say that there is nothing we can do for these people. v'My God,have you seen the conditions they live under! Get them out of there~ Get them . 5388

•. •. April 16, 1973 Tape no. 1255 Page · 3 out of the couun~nitiesl~ I would like for the minister to resist that because it is bound to happen. If he gets some experts, especially if they are down from the mainland somewhe~e, to go out and look at some of the communities along the southwest coast and the northeast coaat, they will rush back to Confederation Building, ~ueh into the deputy~• office and say:"My God,we found seventy-five people down in thi• little cove:and you would not know but they discovered them for th• first time. "Here they are dawn there.

Somebody made an application to tart up a lit:tle canning factory. Do you know wtlat I would suggeet. move them out of there.'' That is what they would do. We have ~o much of that. I would hope that the minister will resist that becau e there ia a great future in rural Newfoundland.in my opinion. Where could you pick a better place to live, Sir. today,than dawn in Placentia Bay or down in St. Mary'• Bay or down in Bone Bay or down in Creen Bay where you have pure. unpolluted, mid-A.Cl.antic fresh air. \ - MR.. MORGAN: Bonavia ta Bay. Mil. NEAllY: Yes Bonavista Bay too. It i  beautiful clown there.

Where could you pick a better place to live? There are no traffic jams. The kida can walk to school. They do not have to go down and staiid on the corner and inhale the fumes from the traffic,waiting for a bus. 'l'hey do not have to put up with the noiae and the drug problems and all the other probleina that you have in the rat race, in the so-called affluent society. You could not pie~ a better place to live than in rural Newfoundland. The hitch is, Sir, and the hitch has been up to the present time, how can people earn a living in rural Newfoundland? 'l'hi i . the problem. MR. WILSON: (Inaudible). MR.

NEARY: What do you mean,co•e over? I am expounding a philosophy here now that the hon. member for Port de Grave would not know anything about. He would not understand it. He does not know anything about it. I will think of a name for the minister to call his rural development programme. Call it, "Operation Boot Strap." The people in these ·53as

April 17, 1973 Tape no. 1255 Page 4 commu:iit-!.<!s will have to pull themselves up by their boot straps. When we get to the Fisheri~s Departme~t, I am going to have a few more words to say on this matter because if we do tNay with the inshore fishery, the minister will never be able to succeed in his programme, We will have too many people unemployed and that is what is happening today, Sir. Everybody is thinking about machines, automation, new technology. There is nobody thinking about work as he used to know it and jobs as we used to know them. This is what we have to get back to, Sir.

It is not that everybody in society has to get a pick and shovel, we have to start producing with our hands. I think the minister is on the right_ track. I wish him good luck with his programme. MR. ROBERTS: ~t.Chairman, we have had a very interesting series of comments from the gentleman from Port de Grave and the gentleman from Bell Island. I raised one or two questions which the minister mav want to deal with before we leave this subehead. I will restate them if\ :he should want me to do sc;I had gone over them once or twice. I thought the minister had gotten them down. MR. REID: Mr.

Chairman, is this,on the loan of $1,197,000 1 Ls this the one the honourable member is speaking about? MR. ROBERTS: If the minister will yield for a second? MR. REID: 1'es. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman,. there were two questions. I think the first was the apparent discrepancy between the figures which the minister gave to the committee at the start of this debate and the figures which were tabled by him in answer to a question. I think it was Question No. 54. I have it in a file. The other was the question as to whether the minister could predict what we will be seeing this year.

We had a great number of sawmill applications this year. Does the honourable minister expect a like number again this coming year? 5390

•. April 1·7, 19 7:3 Tape no. 125S Page 5 -MR. REID:. Actually this $1,197,000 •is what we have already paid / out, We have approved more loans than that. ·We have gone $2 million on loan, which people have not yet used up at the present time, As far as the different industries - is this what the honourable member meant on his second question? I did not get the honourable member right. MR, ROBERTS: That is one way to put it. What types of applications? Last year eighty per cent of our applicants for aid under this progra111De were sallllills. What type of applicant does the minister foresee this year? MR.

UID: I would say, Mr. Chairman, that certainly there is still going tb be a big percentage of sawmills. Our field people and our people in the department are certainly trying to encourage various other things throughout Newfoundiand, to try and get them. moving in certain comunities where we know they have certain prospects, Our people are going into the field and going out in all the different coDIIIIUDities trying to get these people active and to try and help them in every way, shape or form that we can so that they can be doing something beneficial.

They can produce the different proj ecta that they have and the different products which. we know can be very helpful but who are not taking advantage of it at the present time, MR. ROBERT~: I thank the honourable minister, Mr, Chairman. Members of the field staff are out about the province attempting to drum up applications. That in effect is what the minister said, I gather that to date (I make this as an affirmative statement) that apparently little has reaulted other than the sawmilling. I am concerned as to where we go. There are a finite number of sawmill potentialities in Newfoundland.

There are a finite number of casket potentials. I mean there are only~X.-thousand Newfoundlanders die every year. We had the Vital Statistics Report tabled here the other day. I am sure Your Honour 5391

April 17, 1973 Tape no. 1255 Page 6 ha~ taken it and carried it off to St. Georr,e•~ and spent a night or two memorizing it. There is a finite number. I just want to know how far this can go. The sawmills, are they a one-shot deal? Apparently not from what the minister is saying. Has he any indication of any success in his field staff developing other lines of applications? MR. REID: One thing, Mr. Chairman, is home industries. We are having people working out throughout Newfoundland and Labrador.

We have helped different companies now and we are trying~ encourage others to start canning and doing various things besides,not only casket making but also doing carpentry work and building furniture and various things like that. MR. ROBERTS: Oh well I will let it go, Mr. Chairman. We will wait another year.when the minister has a record he can either defend or not as the case may be. There is just one further question. The honourable minister announced in an answer he tabled that there were three hundred projects which had been aided. The information I had earlier was not the same.

There is still that apparent conflict between the information the honourable minJster gave the committee and the information in the answer to the question tabled by the honourable minisCer. MR. HARTIN: ·Mr. Chairman, there is not really too much to be added to what the hon. gentleman from Bell Island has said and the hon.member from Port de Grave. I think they both made some very good points. Because of their speeches, I will have to throw out most of the notes that I have made. There is one area I think that should be touched on.

Now it never ceases to be a source of amazement where bureaucrats who categorize things come up with all the various names. We have inpur resource development department or line departments, if you will, agencies which take care of fisheries development, forestry development, tourist development, industrial development, agricultural 5392

.. '· April 17, 1973 Tape no. 1255 . Page 7 development, etc. W• have a department for puahiag the development of the potential for mines and energy and all the rest of it. I wondered where it is we get a department for rural development. I am wondering if we are going to have a department for urban development later on. I was just about to mention, Mr. Chairman, that maybe th• hon. member for St. John'• Centre would be interested. However, I had cer~in miagiviaga when the restructuring proceaa gave us a aew Rural Development Department.

I never did believe that the old Department of Community mad Social De~lopment wu anything but a pork barrel department. I thought perhapa we aight be seeing the••• thiag. However, there ia cause for hope. I would aot be too much concerned I think about the proliferation of aftlllill.a. I believe there is a very good and logical explanation for thu. If there were not, I too would be as worried u th• hon. Leader of the Opposition. It happeu to coinc:lde with a lac'lt of aupply of lumber in Eastern Canada. 'lbere is a great demand and the prices are high.

A lot of these _sllWlllills haw been there for •ny yeara and need upgrading and a little few extra bit and pieces of ll&Chinery put in to take advantage of the market. tllat is all wry well u it i • How what is going to happen with the overall policy of the departaeat as it relate  to taking these mall buaine aea along by the hand.

I think one of the large criticis• of the old Department of Community and Social Development was that too •DY alien concepts were beiag introduced into rural Newfoundland. that expert planners ' came dowa and told us what we had to do; how we had to do it and very little thought was given to the people who lived there and who were supposed to be helped.

I think the fact that we are seeing .... things like carpenter shops and sawmills 'and these kind of things b~ing ap~lied for is an indication that theTe is recogaition of a need. a felt need of things that relate directly to their own environment and to their own way of life. We should aot be at all concerned about this .• ln fact it should be promoted. 5393

April 17, 1973 Tape no. 1255 Page 8 There is a real basis here for the manifestation of the .. ~ promise which this admi,istration made to the people of this province when they were campaigning,and that is to get into some serious and honest, as it was called then, Scandanavian planning. If ~e take the system as we now have it opP.rating quite well,it would seem at this point in time at the bottom of the scale and if we put in the next level of management, we are well on the way to a very, very good rural resource department. Let us take a look at what has happened in the past . . Why did the sawmills fail?

Why was it that these small operators could not make a go of their businesses? I submit, Sir, that · one of the greatest reasons for that was because they were not geared to take advantage of market situations. They did not know what the market situations were. They were in no way prepared financially to take the losses and consequently with a couple of losses in succeeding years, t~ey were put out of business because they had no way of telling what was happening in the world in which they were trying to market their produce.

To go right back to the beginning of our Colonial history, we saw the large fishing companies putting pressure on the British Government to keep fishermen out of our inshore waters so that these waters could be monopolized for the big fish trade. The same thing I think has happened with regard to our small sawmill operators and in our forest lands. Large tracks of land were taken up and held by the large paper companies and sawmill operators and government had a deliberate policy of discouraging small sawmill operators to a large extent.

Thete was always some wood to be cut but it was never a policy to encourage the small sawmill operators to expand because there was never the timber resources to be had. They were all taken up by the big fellows. One thing that this government have done and it remains to be seen whether or not they are going to continue, which I think is a ~ood policy; to wipe out all these large concessions and at least take a look at the concessions they have not wiped out and rationalize the utilization. 5394

.. .. April 17, 1973 Tape no. 1255 Page 9 While the programme at the present time gives us room for optimism, I should think that.there is no time ·to be lost.

The next level has to be, instead of a subsidization of dollars, instead of putting money out to these people (that is all right in itself but it is not far enough) the next stage we have to go _through is to make available to these small operators,who do not have the experience nor the expertise nor the management skills or whatever you want to call it, to make available to them a pool of this expertise; to have on staff at the department a group of people who can be ·fanaed out to help with the books, as my hon. friend from Bell Island suggested, and any other management,administrative difficulties in which they might find themselves.

The second, by far the more important one, is to set up a marketing agency like we .have aeen aet up for th• salt fish corporation. The Canadian Salt Fish Corporation has virtually wiped out the problema that the salt fish merchants uaed to encounter in trying to deal with the international · fish broken. · 'rhe •- kind of ~ing is )>oggling the development of the local lumber industry. The local producen are much too busy trying to get their wood out of the woods and sawed to pay any attention to what is going on with markets.

There must be an agency t_o take care of that &;nd to look into it and to make aura that whatever marketa are there that they are being utilized for the benefit of the primary producer. If we are ever going to break loose of our dependence on Ottawa,-if we are ever going to get away from our dependence on transfer payments, then ve have to try to start generating some base dollars, some dollam that come from the very source, the r~ource developments, the primary producers.

It is in the interest of this government and in the interest of the who-le province that these small-time operators, who have been given grants and loans _from the public purse, that their interesta and our interests .. be protected by providing them with management skills and then by providing them with an agency through which to sell their produce. 5395

April 17, 1973 ' Tape no. 1255 Page 10 This will hav~ a double-barrelled effect. It will make sure that all their produce is marketed logically, sensibly and rationally and it will also cut out the many stages of middlemen which gouge them all the way alonp, and take the cream off the profits. I would suggest, Sir, that if this department be going to live up to its pote~tial that it has to start thinking about what we have heard called Scandanavian planning and start thinking very seriously about the establishment of such things as marketing agencies. MR. PECKFORD: Mr.

Chairman, I would just like to say a few more words about rural development before this particular vote is passed. May I say at the outset that I do agree with most of the points brought up by the various members on both sides of the House. For years many of us who lived in rural Newfoundland in various capacities have been harping for years on some kind of a programme like the rural developmen~ authority. I cannot help hut agree on the major points that have been made in the debate so far regarding especially the counselling services to these small operators.

I think it is going to be essential if many of them are going to be worth-while. I think one of the things that some bf the DREE officials and other people who are into regional development in Canada usually point out to potential entrepreneurs, etc., is the fact that of a given number of small induatries,medium sized industries that are started each year, seventy or eighty per cent I think of them fail because of poor management, not because the market was not there, not because the raw material was not there or that they did not have the machinery to produce the product.

It is because the managerial skills were not present and the people were not well versed in the managerial skills to make it worth-while. I know for a fact two or three years ago that a nwnber of people from DREE mentioned that figure to me. I think it: was something around seventy or eighty per cent. As this programme develops over the next year or so, it might be really worthwhile for the Department of Rural Development to look at settin~ up even a separ~te division,perhaps of counselling services 5396

' April 17; 1973 Tape DO. 1255 Page 11 and not juat 110 that the various people who receive loans from the rural development authority could COM voluntarily to get information, because they are going to be rather reluctant to do that.but that they must obtain this information, that this be one of the requirements in order for them to obtain it.

Perhaps also in regard to marketing, as the hon. member for Labrado1:' South mentioned, especially when we begi:i to see just how great an impact these small sawmilling operations are going to have upon the market potential of the province and the,i to see just where the 111&7:ket i.11 weak or where the market is strong, 11erhaps right now it 1s not the time to get into it.

I could see that it 1• going to be needed ~f the sawmilliag operatioms as , I • a ~ole, the majority of them (some are going to fail aad ve all know that) are to succeed.,Then we are going to need some kind of a central body to co-ordinate the marketing facilities. Otherviee we a-re going to be in _trouble. Of course, this kind of marketing operation would be worthwhile because the developaent authority or the department could see then in what areas it is not viable now to give aay more loans,for the authority to see what other areas this should be emphasized in. It seems to me that it has a lot of, merit.

Another point, M"r. Chairman, . which was brought ~ I think by the hon. member for .Bell Island and perhaps the hon. Leader of the Oppoaition as well, is the fact of this being a technological age and so on. He w,ts • little paradoxial in his comments overall because nov and ~hen he slipped in these words of technology and so on. On the other hand he was talking about those small communiti•s dawn around Placentia Bay somewhere where the people should be alloared to live in their splendor, in their innocence or whatever else and to develop some kind of a small industry down there.

The point here that I really want to make, Mr. Chail'ID8n, is the fact that sawmilling operations constitute eighty per cent of the loans given by the Rural Development Authority simply because they are 5397

April l 7 • l 9 7 3 Tape no. 1255 Page 12 the kind of operations that are most conducive to a loan not exceeding $10.000.allowing an individual who has no money of his own to get into an operation and employ four or five people. Now once · you get out of the sawmilling operation altogether or even in the sawmilling operation.if you are going to enlarge it or process lumber or dress it to a high degree or get into some furniture components or whatever, you have to start to talk about sophisticated machinery, more sophisticated managerial schools that are going to be needed for marketing and so on.

Then you are into the kind of operation that now is supposed to be the job of the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that part of thP- reason for the slowness of this corporation getting off the ground is because it is having difficulty in trying to identify what kinds of projects they are going to assist.

As soon as you get into an operation where you get into sophisticated machinery, into medium-sized fish processing units or into wood products, manufacturing, you are getting into a whole new ball game. 'lli.e man down in Green Bay today, down in King's Point, knows that the gentleman in Springdale needs'x'number of board feet of wood this coming year. The market is readily available and he does not need any cost analysis or any market analysis. He knows that it is going to be there. It is a steady market. Houses are being built. Buildings are being built.

All he needs is the machinery that he has already had for ten or fifteen years in most cases and he had to go out of it because there was no assistance available,so he only has to reactivate that and buy_ a few other machines and go ahead. As soon as you go be'yond that you are into a whole new ball game. · This is the reason, besides the market being good, that the sawmilling industry per se is very conducive to small business loans up to $10,000, like the Rural 5398

April 17, 1973 Tap• no. 1255 Pa1• . 13 Development Authority. I suggest -that once you go above that, once you start getting into wood manufacturing and into fish processing• you are into a whole new ball game and are into · sophisticated machinery. What the man is going to have to do, as they are going to have to do in the Newfoundland Development Corporation, bring in a proposal, well documented,with his cost analysis, with his market aaalysia, with the kind of machinery he is going to get and he i8 talking about a year or two years to get started.

Thia is the very thing, as politicians we complain about,becawse moet of ua are rather pragmatic individuals, being forced upon us. I would like to see thin~ get off the ground as quickly u poaaible. I do not know whether there is another election coming up or· whatever-: . This is why this Rural Devel~pment Authority has been able to process I ! , the applications at such a quick speed. It will never be done in a development corporation, no way.

You are talking about a more detailed proposal !llld the individual who submits a proposal 1a going to have to support it and he is going to have all the evidence at, hie di•poaal for it. "nlia is one of the dilemma in Newfoundland, today, in Newfoundland, economy ,_that we are going to have to face • We have certain coaanunities where you can put a sllWlllilling operation or you can put two aawmilling operations, where you can perhaps put a small cannery for fish because of the unique situation in that area. There might be some areas you can do that.

After ~u go from your sawmill operation or your small little cannery to something larger, wood producta,manufacturing,like moldings or furniture c0111ponenta, you are into a very new field and it is a problem I think we really are going to have to be faced with, whether we are going to get into that to any great extent. Mr. Chairman. this .is where the Development C.orporation is supposed to take up, as I see it, from the Rural Developm~nt Authority. Nuv whether it does or whether it does not is another matter, I do not know. 5399

4pr11 17, 1973 Tape n.o. 1255 Page 14 But here is where ouT big problem is going to be as it is also going to _be i:l the fish processing, I think this is the main reason why right no" the Rural Dev~lopment Authority _ha.a wodced so far. t agree to a large extent with the hoi:i. member for Labrador ~outh that I do not think we have to worry to a large extent about the S&Wlllill:tng operaUons and whethe-r jobs are goi~g to be temporary or per1D&nent. I would say th.at the majority of them will be perl!lll ;nent.

One thing that has been sor.t of glossed c,ver is the fact that a lot of these s~lliug operations (t do not kz:,.ov if it j..s true in White Bay North - although I suggest that it would be,) 5400

' April 17, 1973 Tape 12S6 are begun by operato~ho ware in the saw milling business before. I know down in Green Bay District it is true. Almost to a man, every one of them were in the saw milling business and had to go out of it. They were familiar with what the 8LW milling operation was. They knew the market in the region and so therefore they - could go ahead, get their $7,000 or $8,000 for their new planer or perhaps just a new machine.and they are getting into this a bit more. The lumber busineH is now today in Newfoundland more •ophisttcated in thia way. The lUllber u being dreaeecl.

We are getting better quality lumber so that these . nal.1-to-aedium size •av mill operators are going to be able to compete fairly well with the bigger saw mill operation that vu able to withstand the neglect over the last ten years and hence be a viable operation. They are 11oing to be able to compete with them. I know for a fact today in two or three areas of this province that some of the bigger saw mill operators are fairly scared of themeelves right now,because they can see these mall •av ill operations coaching upon their market. This is good. It is good competition and might get the price down a bit.

I think the main point I wanted to make, Mr. Chairman, was simply that once we get out of the $10,00Q loan field into a more sophisticated industrial complex like wood manufacturing and fi•h proceasing we are into a whole nev ball game and there is no way,just by the very nature and definition of the kind of COllplex you are talking about,that it is 1oing to be able to operate like the Rural Development Authority operates because you are into all the other things that I mentioned. MR. WINSOR: Mr. Chairman, there is very little ·to add to what already has been said about the Rural·Development.Department.

I would say the honourable Minister of Rural Development baa a very grave responsibility on his hands because he must realize by nov that the fate of his government almost depends solely on what 5401 JM - 1

April 17, 1973 Tape 1256 success he makes of his department. We recall the honourable the Premier making statements time after time advocating and preaching what effect this will have on the rural part of Newfoundland, This rural development is going to be the cure-all. So I sympathize with the honourable minister in this respect that he must now make sure that the rural development succeeds or otherwise it is going to be a very black day for him. Now, Sir, we have talked about saw mills and why we are not producing lumber today for the local market. Mr.

Chairman, we did supply most of the l1J111ber for local market years ago. We can recall when the firm of Horwood down here brought in vessel load after vessel load, Chester Dawe vessel load after vessel load, cut and . sawed in Green Bay and other places. But they brought that lumber in and they made sure that it was of a good quality. If it was not,when they got it they made it so. The lumber was seasoned and it was very easy to use and very cheap. However, Sir, we found ourselves in a war area and the price of labour rose to such an extent that our local saw mill operators could not compete.

We found ourselves not being able to compete w;lth l1J111ber that was produced in British Columbia and furthermore every foot of lumber brought in from British ColtDDbia was useable. There was no wastage. So this is the problem with our saw mills. Unless the honourable minister takes steps to make sure that for the loans whic~ he is making to those small saw mill operators,if there is not supervision, 'if they are not_ producing good lumber I can tell him now that all his efforts will fail.

This is the important thing, to produce the quality that can be useable and with a very competitive rate,of course,because, Sir, the lumber that is being produced in Newfoundland,by an awful lot of those small saw mills,has not been of a very high quality. I agree with going out into rural Newfoundland to encourage people to do things on their own. It is the kind of injection that we need because, Sir, there is nothing 5402 JM - 2

•. April 17, 1973 Tape 12S6 that will detroy a man's will to li~e like idleneaa. If we can promote that man to get him into the working , force agai~, to get him producing even though it may only be a small kitchen garden - and I do not imagine the honourable minister will make loana for that - nevertheleaa it may not be a bad idea to get people out to get them working, get t~em feeling self-supporting, give them that feeling that they are still needed and they can do a job in this modem society of ours. So, Sir, this is about all I have to say on this.

I trust the minister will see to it and make sure that the saw mills especially that are going to ~perate will. produce a good quality, I sincerely wish him all the luck because he is going to need it. On motion, 1601(01), carried, 1601(02)(01): MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, juat as a matter of interut.$8,000 last year vas spent and $3,000 this year. I do not begrudge any minister a nickel for travelling but I understand the present minister is going to Scandinavia; to Norway, to Denmark and to SWeden. Well, he shakes his head. If not - ~e is Not?

That is easy, I wonder if the minister could tell us where the $8,000 went last year. I realize much of that would not be his expenses but still it is probably one of the highest totals we have had. MR. REID: Mr. Chainnan, in the amount showing for last year we had to provide for salaries for two ministerial secretaries, a secretary assigned to me upon my appointment and then her predecessor who was transferred to the position of secretary to the Minister of Rehabilitatton. Also for a short period we had two executive assistants. MR. ROBERTS: ~ell, that is interesting and I thank the minister and it is useful.

I take it the minister does have an executive assistant,by the way,now. Does the minister have one? MR. REID: Yes. 5403 JM - 3

April 17, 1973 Tape 1256 MR. ROBERTS: That is good. I was asking about travelling which was $8,000 last year and I was wondering where that money went, in round terms •. I do not need the details, the cents, the dollar breakdown. MR. REID: Mr. Chairman, I do not have a clue but I would certainly try to find out because there were no expenses as far as travelling since I walked into this department. I can certainly try to get this information because that is the other department that we took over. MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr.

Chainnan, I can appreciate that the minister does not have a clue, to use his words, but· I understand he will table a list of expenditures out of subhead 1601(02)(01) during the 1972-1973 fiscal year. He is &oing to table it not today but tomorrow or the day after whenever it is convenient. Do I have that understanding of the minister? MR. REID: Yes. On motion, total subhead 1601, carried. 1602(01): MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, on this one if the minister could just say,1t is down $42,100, could the mini~ter indicate why?.

I assume these positions have not - I guess they have been eliminated or they have been moved elsewhere. MR. REID: Mr. Chairman, the only reason I can say is that I think at the present time that we are going to have less staff than probably was in the other old department. MR. ROBERTS: I see. Has any staff been laid off, Mr. Chairman, or is everybody who was employed in the former CNSD Department still employed at some point throughout the government service? MR. REID: No, we do not have all the staff.

One of our fellows in the department went on to Memorial and we had another gentleman who got another job elsewhere. So there are two people left out of the department but one, Mr. Evans.is .,as we spoke about a while 54Q4 JM - 4

April 17, 1973 Tape 1256 ago, on loan for the next twelve months with Memorial, On motion, total subhead 1602, carried. 1603(01): MR. ROBERTS: Your Honour, I assume this is tl~e new euphemism for the resettlement pror,ramme. It does not say so in so many words but looking through the estimates there is no other place for it and further looking through the estimates down below we see contributions-in-aid. There are only one or two questions I would like to ask and they refer to the statement made by the then Minister of Community and Social Development, the member for the District of Grand Falls.

It was not a year ago. It was the last time the CNSD estimates were before the committee in I guess June or May of last year. At that time we were told that a major review of the resettlement programme had been undertaken. We had a lot of jargon and gobbledygook but if you dug through the statement that is what you found. Now we have heard nothing since. The minister concerned, the gentleman from Grand Falls, was of course put out of the cabinet and put aside but we have heard nothing from his successor on the point of resettlement at all. Furthermore the honourable Mr. Jamieson made a speech here in St.

John's,! think it was the first of March,over here at Holiday Inn,speaking to a business-day seminar or development of the commerce students at the U11iversity. In that speech,which was a fairly hefty policy statement, Mr. Jamieson indicated that the Government of Canada were teceptive to approaches by the administration for some pretty significant changes in the JM - 5 resettlement agreement. If the minister should want me to go into details, I shall but I assume the minister is familiar with Mr. Jamieson's sp~ech and if not.I have a copy of it _here.

It is rather good reading because we all know there are things wrong with the resettlement pro~ramme. 5405

April 17, 1973 Tape 1256 I would like~the minister to indicate,if he would,what response the administration made to that. That waA ix week& ago, seven weeks ARO now. Further maybe he would comment on what to me is ., vPry mnJor undcrlyinr, theme ln Mr . .Jamiescn's speech: nmr.cly, that there have been by the present administration no approaches, since January 18, 1972,with respect to restructuring,resettlement. So I guess there are three questions in that or two, two questions in that, Sir. What ever happened to the major review which the gentleman from Grand Falls as minister told us was underway?

What has happened? Has that been shelved or what? If it has not been shelved,when can we expect to see it? Furthermore what is the position of the administration with respect to the policy initiatives announced by Mr. Jamieson in his speech here in St. John"s recently? HR.. REID: Mr. Chairman, we had DREE here and met with our department and we have a brand new system coming up for.relocating co11111unities and consolidation and we are waiting now at the present time. We have had the federal here with us and we have a brand new programme and we are hoping before Mr. Jamieson goes back that he will meet with us.

It looks very promising at the present time and before he goes back we hope and he will probably get some of this approved. It looks very promising. There is a tremendous change and I think we will all agree that even though the resettlement programme we had before was a good thing to a certain extent) there were a lot of loopholes. I am quite convinced now that this new programme that we are coming up with now is going to certainly offset a lot of the obstacles that were caused by various people moving into different communities. MR. ROBERTS: Well that is most inter ·est1ng.

I do understand that a new resettlement programme then is not only in the works but is about, Jamieson willing, to emerg~ very shortly from the works. That is most interesting and most welcome especially in view of 5406 JM - 6

April 17, 1973 Tape 1256 the fact that the minister is estimating thRt we will spend this year only the same amount of money that was spent last year. The . ' only increase in the vote, Your Horiour, in the whole subhead,is for salaries and that is not the most overstaffed division we have in the entire government service because the salaries include a regional development director lV, I assume that is Mr.

Harnum the man who held the title up until now and presune he is still the director of resettlement, and then a regional development director 111, an engineering technican 11, a regional development officer 11, one statistician, three stenographic posts and then a block provision of $15,000 for new posts. So that is not a large division. Does the miqister enyisage extra expenditures this year under this subhead? MR. REID: Mr. Chairman, the old one we cannot c0111pare with the new one at the present time because we feel quite sure, almost one hundred per cent sure that the new programme is going through.

I am quite convinced that it is and there is a tremendous lot of difference in the cost,that we hope we are going to receive. It is a different programme altogether. We were hoping that we would have this finished before now. But immediately after,if it should go through, we will certainly let all all members in the House know exactly what the new programme is about. On motion, subhead 1603(01) through 1603(04), carried. 1603(05): MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, would the minister tell us please where the $65,000 was spent last year and where he envisages the expenditure of $100,000 this year? MR.REID: Mr.

Chairman, I am afraid I do not have that information but I will certainly get it in probably a day or two if possible. MR. ROBERTS: Will the minister table a list then showing, Your Honour, expenditures under 1603(05) during the fiscal year 1972-1973, the year that has just ended,and where he expects to 5407 JM - 7

April 17 • 1973 Tape 1256 apend the monl'y? I lust want to ht> clear we h1we the 11nderatanding of w~ere he expects to spend the money this current year, this year we are now in,1973-1974. MR. RY.ID: 1603(03) He says ~rants? MR. ROBERTS: ~o. 1603(05) - Community Amenities it is called. MR. REID: Mr. Chairman, this is the hope of the people with the new pro~ramme that we have that when they go into a brand new community we will aid the school and also probably help with roads and water and sewerage. Thia is what this money is cut out for. MR. ROBERTS: Well, I know that.

I mean that is Jtraightforward but what I wanted was a list ~f where the 1110ney was spent last year. I realize the minister does not have it but he undertook to table it. Is that the unders·tanding we have? MR. REID: Yes. MR. ROBERTS: Okay, I thank him'. Ou motion, 1603(05). carried. 1604(01): MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, there are new posts, I assume. There is a $53,000 increase. These are the field ment Could the minister tell us where field men are at present stationed, please? Could he tell us how many new posts there are and where they will be stationed in the current year? MR. REID: Mr. Chairman, St.

John's, Harbour Grace, St. Catherines, Grand Bank, Clarenville, Gander, Grand Falls, Meltpn, LaScie, Deer Lake, Corner Brook, Stephenville, Port aux Basques·, Port . Saunders, Cartwright and Happy Valley. MR. ROBERTS: What happened to the one in St. Anthony, Mr. Chairman? Mr. Hodder, where has he been moved? MR. REID: There is one in St. Anthony. JM - 8 MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry I did not hear the minister read St. Anthony. MR. REID: It is not here but there is certainly.one in St. Anthony. 5408

April 17, 1973 Tape 1256 MR. RORF.RTS: I thou~ht I did not hear the minister read it and I thought Hr. llodder was still in St. Anthony. Does that list include new posts? In other words is that the list that will be in effect wl.en this money is approved by the committee? MR. REID: At the present time I think that is the list unless we see a certain area that is not covered properly and then we will probably have to get one more person. MR. ROBERTS: Okay, well I wish the minister luck with the stoney- hearted Finance Minister. How many of those are new posts,please? MR.

REID: Six or seven.I am not sure but I believe it is seven, Mr. Chairman. On motion 1604(01) through 1604(03)(02), carried. 1604(03)(03): MR. ROBERTS: That by any chance is not destined for the capacious maw of George McLean Limited, is it? MR. REID: No, Mr. Chairman, it is done by our own people. On motion, 1604(03)(03), carried. 1604 (03) (04) : MR. ROBERTS: Your Honour, there is a substantial increase of $50,000 which would be five new associations. This progrannne I take it puts $25,000 to the Newfoundland and Labrador Rural Development Council and $10,000 each to a number of development associations.

The one which was brought in by my colleague, the gentleman from White Bay South,when he was minister, is that that programme? Where are the five new associations which the minister envisages? Could he indicate where they are, please? MR. REID: I know there are fifteen corporations but right now I do not have the list. If the honourable gentleman should need it, we will certainly get it for him. MR.

ROBF.RTS: Well maybe while the minister is getting some other information for the House, Sir, perhaps he could table,1604(03)(04), a list of the associations aided last year and a list of the associations which will be aided this year. 5409 JM - 9

April 17, 1973 Tape 1256 MR. REID: All rightl HR. ROBERTS: Okay! Thank you, Sir! On motion, 1604(03)(04), carried. 1604(03)(05): MR. WINSOR: Hr. Chairman, could the minister give us a sort of an outline of what kind of progr811D11es he envisages in that progra11111e there to spend $10,000? Is this going to be field men or just what does the minister have in mind? MR. REID: Mr. Chairman, this would be a train _ed staff programme we have for training our staff on development aesociations. On motion, total subhead 1604 carried. 1605(01): MR. MARTIN: Mr. Chairman, I have one question.

Sir, I wonder if the minister would give us a brief outline, he need not go into too much detail- as to how this project planning is carried out. There does not seem to be a terribly big vote here, Whether or not there is just one person in charge of a division doing all the planning? How the planning process works, whether people down in the communities in the development associations have any voice in the matter and how'? HR. REID: No, Mr.

Chairman, what we are doing is our people are going out and working with different development associations all over Newfoundland and Labrador and they are working together and planning the various things in the areas where the associations are set up. MR. MARTIN: I understand from the minister then •• Mr. Chairman, that it is the policy of the department to encourage planning from the local level rsther than imposing it from the top down. I would just like to have that point clarified. HR. REID: I agree one hundred per cent, Mr. Chairman. That is the idea. On motion, total subhead 1605, carried. 541i0 ' JM - 10

•. April 17, 1973 , Tape 1256 1606(01): MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chainnan, we have had a lot of debate about this Rural Development Authority and I do not propose to go through it again but t~is maybe a good opportunity to try to get to the bottom of one of the minor mysteries of the current administration. We had announced last summer, late in the SUIIU!ler I guess, the creation of a Rural Development Authority. I believe it was announced by the Premier, a great fanfare.

I understand from sources which I know to be reliable that the authority came into existence only because the Premier, as it were, put his foot down and forced it through the Treasury Board and forced it through the other steps,and it came into effect. Of course, this is the authority which has lent the money which has gone out, the matter which we discussed earlier. That is okay. It was a sort of a curious hybrid. The authority was made up of three ministers of the Crown and three private citizens, as I JM - 11 recall it. I forget their names. One I believe was Mr. Christopher Pratt of St. Catherines,up in St.

Mary's District, another was Mr. Bert Meade of Milltown and Mr. Lloyd Archibald of Harbour Grace. Mr. Archibald's loan did not come from this, did it? Mr. Archibald has received a substantial loan from the administration, $125,000. MR. REID: Not from Rural Development. MR. ROBERTS: No, I did not think it was but I wanted to be sure. Well, Mr. Meade I understand has left the authority. That is my understanding and if I am not correct I shall ~ladlv stand corrected on the point. But along the roac1 it haprencd that the authority was set up as a continuing opPration, in effect a four-phasP operation I am told.

The first was the -loan programme which is now underway. The second was working with the development associations and that is the sort of'point the gentleman from Labrador South has just raised. It may be that that function has been moved to the Rural Project Planning Division but with only three people in the Fural 541'1

April 17, 1973 Tape 1256 proJec~ PlanninP. !Jivisr";,n that is not a lot of manpower to consult with the fifteen associations around NP-Wfoundland especially when one recalls as I am sure Your Honour will that these associations have no resource people. They have a grant,! Lhink of $10,000 a year,and that enables them as a rule to hire an executive secretary and possibly even a stenographer if they have need of one and a few dollars for travel and what have you but certainly they have no funds for access to the type of planning to which the gentleman from Labrador South referred.

The plans which will be produced,unless there is additional help,will be the ones with which everybody in public life in this province is so familiar ~ a brief or the petition. Those are valuable, Mr. Chairman, and they hold their place in the public service but they are not I submit planning within the context we are using that word here. In any event there was that second function. Then there vas a third function as I understood it, Sir, and that was to get workers, to get rural development and c011mtunity development workers trained to help to organize people.

That is the sort of work which the extension service at the university are doing,sometimes with success and sometimes with failure,but that was contemplated. Then the fourth phase was perhaps the most valuable of all the local feedback. You can call it what you want, participatory democracy, as my friend from Bell Island would say,two-way communications, a draftman's participation. I mean one could put any number of words on it hut the concept is simple.

The concept is founded on the belief that all wisdom does not reside in Confederation Building, that much of the accumulated wisdom of Newfoundland is to be found in the collll\unities and in the daily lives of the people affect. 54l2 whom.government activities will JM - 12

.. April 17, l~73 Mr. Roberts: Tape 1257 PK-1 Well, that was the plan, Your Honour. I must say that I think it was rather a ~ood pl,m. •r11ere :ire we.iknesses in it hut it is VPry harcl to devise' a plan which does not have some failings. This · was a goorl plan. Thr. mtthorltv •,r;is set up, it t.1as fundecl anrl it started lashin~ out money an<1 ph,1!'!C onf' w;is P.oinr, r:reat. Then somethinr. else happenec1. I do not know of other members on this side but I for one began hearin~ mutterin~s that there was a war on.

The war was fought out in the depths of Confederation P.uildinr,, between the most deadly of combatants, the bureaucrats. The war was fought as to whether there would be a coherent rural development philosophy as it had been developed or whether it would be i .nstead just a piecemeal,bandaid prograrrme.

The war raged on and the war ended, Sir, on the 1st day of December, I think it was, or whenever it was that the Premier, with a great thud, brouiht down the white paper, the .most disappointin~ document that the people of ~Jewfoundland have seen since the last Progressive Conservative manifesto, because that white paper forecast (not in so many words but it forecast) the end of the Rural Development Authority and gave us instead what we have now, a department so great, so noble, so admirable to the minister. Now we still have a rural development authority - I realize that.

There is still a board of six men, this curious hybrid of ministers and private citizens meeting to consider applications. In that sense they are exactly like the Fisheries Loan Board or the Farm Development Loan Board or the late and unlanented Tourist Loan Board or any of the other loan boards around. 11ut nohocly ever said that the Fisheries Loan Boarn represent­ ed a developmen ·t philosophy. The Fisheries Loan Board, Sir, or the Rural Development Authority, as it now exists, I submit is a mechanism for lending money. That is fine. That is valuable. However, Mr.

Chairman, it is my submission that that is not a substitute for a thought-out and a creative and a worthwhile and compre­ hensive policy of rural . rlevelop~ent. I would submit that a policy of rural 5413

April 17, 1973 Tape 1257 PK - 2 development for this province must not only be one of the foundations of public policy in this provine but that in addition it must be an inte~ral whole. I suggest we do not have that now. The minister,at the opening of the debate J invited him to make a brief statement and he did. Tie told us that essentially he envisn~ecl the creation of jobs. Valuable, But that will not be enour,h to solve the problems of rural Newfoundland. It will not be enough to solve the problems of rural Newfoundland even if we put in water and sewen and all those community amenities. Those are important.

All of them are important. Without the jobs we are in trouble and without the basic road services, without the basic community services of all descriptions, problems. But unless we can have a comprehensive philosophy,(! hate to use the wordsbecause George McLean scripted them and they have been used so often and to such a noble ~urpose) unless we can help people to do beet what they do beet,or whatever the clich, w~s. We have not heard that recently. But we must help people to.help the111Selves and that is the philosophy of the extension service.

Although my friend from Bell Island and I sometimes differ and sometimes agree on some of the expenses of the extension service, the basic philosophy is sound. It is a philosophy of sending. There is a french word that