April

9, 2008

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS

Vol. XLVI No. 8

The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Fitzgerald): Order, please!

Admit strangers.

This afternoon the House of Assembly would like to welcome thirty-two

students from the Grade 8 Social Studies class of John Burke High School in the

District of Grand Bank. The students are accompanied by their teachers, Mr.

Darrell LaFosse and Ms Donna Brushett, and their bus driver, Mr. Murdock Hiscock.

Welcome to the House of Assembly.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Members

MR. SPEAKER: Members' statements today will be from: the hon. the

Member for the District of Kilbride; the hon. the Member for the District of

Burgeo & LaPoile; the hon. the Member for the District of St. John's East;

the hon. the Member for the District of Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair; the hon.

the Member for the District of Grand Bank; and, the hon. the Member for the

District of Port de Grave.

The hon. the Member for the District of Kilbride.

MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, for a long time Karate has been offered in this

Province. Various clubs and associations have been teaching the art and skills

to Newfoundlanders of many ages. These teachers have all been holders of at

least a fourth-degree black belt in Karate.

Clubs and associations in this Province have always had to look off the

Island for Karate Masters to conduct their grading and testing. There were no

Karate Masters in this Province. This is not the case anymore.

In February of this year, five Newfoundlanders received their sixth-degree

black belts in Karate earning them the lofty rank of Master. All of these men

got their start in the 1960s and early 1970s at the Joe Gillies Karate School,

and all have been dedicated to Karate ever since.

Wayne Lee, a resident of my Kilbride District, is one of these five new

Karate Masters. Wayne, who is now in his fifties, has been teaching Karate in

the Goulds and surrounding areas for years. Many young people, and some not so

young, have trained under Wayne, one of the most dedicated and easy-going people

you could ever run across.

Wayne is the oldest son of Angela and the late Dennis Lee of Petty Harbour

Road, Goulds. He is a long-time employee of Newfoundland Power.

Wayne is married to Lucille Chafe. They have two children, Justin and Holly.

Wayne has dedicated his life to his family, his work and Karate.

I ask all members of this hon. House to join me in congratulating Wayne and

the other four new Newfoundland Karate Masters Bruce Lee, Ernest Howell,

Paul Bell and David Bell.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for the District of Burgeo and LaPoile.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to pay tribute to and thank all those who were involved in the

Hockeyville 2008 competition. Port aux Basques came in third -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. PARSONS: - in the contest with 956,000 votes. That represents

nearly twice the population of our Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. PARSONS: This contest transcended hockey. It brought people together

and it sparked an energy and community spirit which became contagious.

Port aux Basques and the surrounding area hockey enthusiasts worked

tirelessly, the residents spent hours punching in their votes, and

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians everywhere were supportive. To come third out

of 1,100 applicants shows the level of hard work, pride and dedication of the

community. Hats off to Andrew Parsons and the Port aux Basques Minor Hockey

Association, the town council, and everyone involved. You have done your

community proud.

Mr. Speaker, I ask all members of this House to join with me in

congratulating Port aux Basques on a job well done.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for the District of St. John's East.

MR. BUCKINGHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It gives me great pleasure to rise today to acknowledge the athletic success

of young Teddy Purcell from St. John's. For those of us who follow local

hockey, we have seen this young man excel at every level in which he has played.

After a tremendous year of college hockey at the University of Maine, he was

signed by the Los Angeles Kings of the NHL as an unrestricted free agent this

past April.

He started the season with their AHL affiliate, the Manchester Monarchs,

where he quickly proved his skill by not only leading the league in scoring for

periods of time, but also being selected MVP for the league's all-star game.

In a footnote to that, his stick has been included in the Hockey Hall of Fame

as one of only four people who have ever scored a hat trick in that all-star

game I received that news last night. As of this morning, Teddy was third in

league scoring for the AHL and has helped secure his team's spot in the

playoffs.

He was called to play his first NHL game for Los Angeles on January 14. He

played a total of ten NHL games this year, finishing with a goal and two

assists.

Mr. Speaker, I can only assume that any week playing professional hockey is a

good week, but last week had to be a dream week. On Wednesday, Teddy was named

to the league's all rookie team. On Thursday, he was named to the first

all-star team, and on Friday, he capped off his week by being named Rookie of

the Year for the AHL. So, that is a good week.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. BUCKINGHAM: I would like to note that both of Teddy's parents grew

up in St. John's East, which I am so proud to represent.

Mr. Speaker, I ask all members to join me today in congratulating Teddy on

his success and wish him all the best in his future career.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for the District of Cartwright-L'Anse

au Clair.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to congratulate Murray Penney of Port Hope Simpson from the

Coast of Labrador, who recently received an invitation to the 2009 United States

Presidential Inauguration set for January in Washington, D.C.

Murray is a fourth-year student at Memorial University, but the history of

him receiving this invitation dates back to when he was a Grade 11 student at

D.C. Young School, in Port Hope Simpson. At that time he took

part in a Global

Young Leaders Conference in Washington and New York City.

Mr. Speaker, this conference was an explanation and simulation of the United

Nations Security Council and the United Nations General Assembly and the United

Nations Trade Dispute Board. They demonstrated how things work at the highest

levels of organization within the world.

Murray was recognized at this conference for his leadership skills and later

received an invitation to attend a similar conference about two years ago which

was now followed by his most recent and most prestigious invitation to attend

the Presidential Inauguration.

Mr. Speaker, Murray is a testament to the capability of our young people

throughout Newfoundland and Labrador and how they are recognized on a global

scale. He is to be commended for his efforts which led to this opportunity to

participate in an historic event in American history.

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate Murray Penney on his achievements, and I ask the

Members of the House of Assembly to join with me in extending our

congratulations to him for receiving an invitation and being able to participate

in the 2009 United States Presidential Inauguration.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for the District of Grand Bank.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. KING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to recognize a father and son who were recently honoured at the

Sport Newfoundland and Labrador Stars and Legends Awards Gala.

Clem Edwards, or Junior as he is known, was inducted into the Provincial

Sport Hall of Fame as a player and builder, while his son Sean was recognized as

the Provincial Junior Male Athlete of the Year.

Mr. Speaker, Junior's achievements and contributions within soccer are

equal to that of anybody in the history of the sport in this Province. With an

amazing record of more than fifty championships, he ranks equally with the best

players and the best coaches. This weekend, Junior was recognized for his

significant contribution to soccer, not only to St. Lawrence and the Burin

Peninsula, but indeed the entire Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Equally as important, at the age of sixteen, Sean played an important role

for the Senior Laurentians Challenge Cup team that won the Provincial Challenge

Cup and the bronze medal at the National Championships. Sean was also a member

of the Provincial Boys Under Sixteen team, and a member of the Canadian Soccer

Associations National Training Program.

Mr. Speaker, these awards are somewhat symbolic. At a point in time when

Junior Edwards is recognized for the tremendous career he has had, his son Sean

is recognized for the successful season he enjoyed at the commencement of his

senior soccer career.

Mr. Speaker, I ask all members of this House to join me in offering

congratulations to both Junior and Sean Edwards from St. Lawrence on their

recent achievements.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for the District of Port de Grave.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. BUTLER: Mr. Speaker, on March 12, 2008, Mariner Resource

Opportunities Network (MRON) held their second annual employers reception in the

Trinity-Conception region.

This event is to honour employers who have made an outstanding contribution

to the increased employment of citizens with development disabilities.

Mr. Speaker, appreciation awards were presented to a number of area employers

involved in the program. Mr. Clyde Wells, Chairman of M-RON, presented this year's

merit award to Wescal Department Store in Bay Roberts.

Ms Denise Dawe accepted the award on behalf of Wescal's, accompanied by

their very important and famous young employee, Mr. Melvin Janes.

Mr. Speaker, I ask all hon. members to join me in congratulating Wescal

Department Store and to extend thanks to Mariner Resource Opportunities Network

for recognizing all employers involved.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Statements by Ministers.

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BURKE: Mr. Speaker, over the past month hundreds of Level 1 female

students throughout Newfoundland and Labrador have participated in Skills Work

for Women Conferences. Through this program, female students visit a College of

the North Atlantic campus, meet a female working in a non-traditional skilled

trade, and discuss the many opportunities skilled trades can offer. When this

initiative concludes next month, more that 700 students will have been

introduced to skilled trades opportunities.

Skills Work for Women Conferences are a partnership between Skills Canada

Newfoundland and Labrador, and the Department of Education. I am very pleased to

announce, Mr. Speaker, that the provincial government is investing an additional

$20,000 this year to support the conferences being held in Labrador West, Happy

Valley-Goose Bay, Stephenville, Corner Brook, Gander, Burin and St. John's.

Mr. Speaker, this is just the latest in a series of initiatives designed to

open up the world of skilled trades to women. For example, we are introducing an

$11 million skilled trades program in high school and plan to see a 50 per cent

female participation rate. Just last fall, we launched a promotional campaign

called Jump Start Your Life, which is designed to appeal to junior high

students, encouraging them to consider a career in the skilled trades.

At the post-secondary level, we have earmarked 66 per cent of the Alberta

Centennial Scholarships for women in apprenticeship training. We are in the

second year of a contract with the International Brotherhood of Electrical

Workers to promote the electrical field to females. We have also been actively

working with natural and energy resource-based companies to ensure that women's

employment plans are created for all resource development in the Province.

Students and parents need to recognize the incredible potential for a

successful career in the skilled trades. With numerous upcoming mega-projects on

the horizon, the need for qualified skilled workers will only increase. Women

can make their mark on these projects and others by pursuing training in one of

200 skilled trades career options.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the role models who form the backbone of

the Skills Work for Women Conferences. The role models have become successful

career women in their chosen fields. Following their example, today's young

women can become the next generation of women who will change the status quo and

make their mark in the skilled trades field.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port de Grave.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to thank the minister for an advance copy of her statement and to say

that we, too, want to congratulate the young female students, numbering 700, who

have taken

part in this wonderful program.

Mr. Speaker, I have to say, I guess we have come full circle. Back many years

ago it was more or less that you had to have other trades rather than the

skilled trades that we refer to, but I am proud to say that there are quite a

few females in my district today who are either electricians, carpenters or

mechanics, and many others are in training in that profession.

I guess, being in the skilled trades profession myself before entering the

political arena, I have to say it is wonderful to be involved in the skilled

trades, and let it be said by this member, and on behalf of the Opposition, that

if there is something that can be done, it can be done just as well or even

better by a female.

Thank you very much.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will not try to do it better than my colleague, but I will pay tribute to

the people who are referred to in the minister's statement. I thank the

minister for the advance copy of her statement.

I am actually quite interested in this, as many people know, because I was

the Executive Director of Women in Resource Development. I am really honoured

this year because I have been asked to take

part in a couple of these

conferences, and to go and act as a mentor. I am really looking forward to that,

but I would like to take the opportunity to pay tribute, actually, to women in

resource development, because since 1997 they have been so active in working

with government, both provincially and federally, working with industry, working

with unions, to forward the work that is here, and they, too, are a partner in

this because they work very closely with Skills Canada- Newfoundland and

Labrador in organizing the conferences and getting the mentors for these

conferences.

So, a tribute to Anne Marie Anonsen and to all her staff in the Province who

are working on this as well.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources, Labour and

Employment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SKINNER: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to inform my hon. colleagues of

the excellent work being done on behalf of youth by the Newfoundland and

Labrador Youth Advisory Committee, or the YAC.

The Youth Advisory Committee was established in 2001 as a forum for youth to

voice their views and concerns on matters of public policy in this Province. The

YAC advises government on youth-related programs and policies. Under the

sponsorship of the Department of Human Resources, Labour and Employment, the YAC

is comprised of fifteen young people between the ages of fifteen and

twenty-nine, and four adult mentors who are appointed to serve either a two or

three year term.

The provincial government fully supports the vision of the YAC. We believe

that all youth in the Province should enjoy the highest level of safety and

security, that they have access to a high standard of education and health, and

that they have the opportunity to become fully engaged in the economic and

social life of our Province.

Mr. Speaker, the YAC is an active and engaged group that provides solid

advice to government. It has identified strategic priorities for youth. These

include health and wellness, education standards and supportive services. For

example, the YAC has encouraged government to continue to support programs that

better inform young people on tobacco, drug and gambling addictions issues. They

have asked government to improve opportunities for distance education, and to

further promote positive messages to youth about the benefits of living here in

our Province.

Mr. Speaker, this government is listening to youth. For example, in the 2007

policy blueprint we outline the commitment to review the current youth smoking

prevention programs that exist in our schools, as well as support for the

expansion of distance education opportunities and the development of a

comprehensive youth retention strategy.

Mr. Speaker, in my dealings with the YAC, I have had the opportunity to meet

with some of the brightest and most enthusiastic young people in our Province. I

am impressed with their level of commitment, their leadership, and the genuine

interest shown in articulating the concerns of youth and advancing their

interests. I am heartened by their continued confidence in the bright future

ahead for our Province.

Together, the YAC demonstrates that government and young people can work in

partnership to meet the changing needs of our youth.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for the District of Port de Grave.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to thank the minister for the advance copy of the statement, and to

say it is good to see that this Administration is continuing with a wonderful

initiative that was started way back in the era of 2001.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. BUTLER: Mr. Speaker, I want to commend the minister on this statement

and to say, no doubt about it, this advisory committee provides an opportunity

for many of our youth to get involved, and it is good to know, like the minister

said, that government is listening to their needs and hopefully that the issues

they put forward will become priorities with this government and we will see

that they are implemented.

Mr. Speaker, we want to give thanks to the Committee and to all of those

involved with them. We wish them every success in the future, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thanks to the minister for his

advanced copy.

Yes, I, too, am quite pleased with the minister standing and speaking to the

Youth Advisory Committee. In their annual report of 2006 they did recommend that

the government deal with the whole out-migration issue and with the loss of

youth from the Province. So I am very happy to see the government's commitment

to the development of a comprehensive youth retention strategy.

I would imagine that the minister and his office are dealing also with other

organizations, along with the Youth Advisory Committee. It would be really good

to bring their concerns into the Rural Secretariat and to have those groups

working together. I look forward to the day when the minister can stand and tell

us what that strategy is.

Keep up the work!

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: Further Statements by Ministers?

Oral Questions.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions again today are for the Premier, and they are based around the

faulty hormone testing and the information that is coming forward as part of the

public inquiry.

Mr. Speaker, yesterday's testimony from the former Minister of Health, the

current Member for St. John's South, at the Commission of Inquiry has

certainly raised a few eyebrows. He felt that he was kept out of the loop on the

hormone receptor issue and information was being directly sent to the Premier's

office without him ever seeing it.

I ask the Premier: Did you, your staff or officials in Executive Council,

give any directive that information be sent directly to your office without the

knowledge of your former health minister?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Absolutely not, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Mr. Speaker, it seems rather strange that officials in a

department would bypass their minister and just send information directly to the

Premier's office, on any particular issue for that matter, unless there was

some intervention to have that as a practice.

I ask the Premier: Is there any practice within your government where

departmental officials are asked to oftentimes send information directly to your

office and not directly to the minister?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: On the contrary, Mr. Speaker. There is a directive of

two ministers that they be involved - particularly in briefing notes that are

coming to my office. On this particular instance, I was absolutely flabbergasted

when I found out that the minister was not aware. As a matter of fact, when it

first came up we were in a Cabinet meeting and the minister had indicated that

he had not seen the briefing note. My comment was, are you sure? How can you say

that a briefing note came from your department, a three-page briefing note with

detailed information in it, and you have not seen it? He said: Well, I have not

seen it; I had not seen it. Now, that was beyond belief for me from that

perspective. We met with the officials of the department and the officials

confirmed that they had in fact sent it without giving the minister the courtesy

and the responsibility, of course, of seeing it.

So, what happened in the department or how it happened or why it happened, I

have no knowledge, but I can certainly tell you that from our perspective we

would not instruct anybody in the department to circumvent the minister. On the

contrary, we have asked that the ministers be directly involved in the briefing

notes that come to my office.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Two former Ministers of Health have already stated that they left it to

Eastern Health and the appropriate physicians to advise breast cancer patients

of their testing results. As we now know, this process was a failure and the

ministers did not follow up on how the process was proceeding.

I ask the Premier: Why did government not follow up with Eastern Health and

monitor this process of how patients were being contacted and informed about

information?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I cannot speak for those ministers in how

they performed their job and what information they had at the time and why they

made the decisions they made. They are the only people who can answer those

questions. So you have to walk a very, very fine line here in me putting my

interpretation or expressing opinions and expressing conclusions on other

testimony that occurs before the inquiry. If there is a follow up of questions

at some point, I will ask the Minister of Justice to speak on that.

So, you know I cannot attribute any blame. I cannot pass my own personal

opinion on it. What we have seen is we have seen instances where Eastern Health

had omitted and deleted information from briefing notes that were being released

under ATTIP requests, and that was done. They have gone off - they have actually

had press conferences where, in fact, all of the information was not revealed.

Those are actions that are beyond the control of the minister. The minister

cannot be responsible for every single person all the way down the line in the

health care system because they have no possible, tangible means of doing it.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier to complete his answer.

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Fine, Mr. Speaker.

So, from my perspective, I cannot pass judgement on the circumstances that

the ministers were in at the particular point and time and what information they

had, because I do not know.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Mr. Speaker, the Member for St. John's South also made

reference to the fact that if he had known about the briefing note that was

submitted to the Premier's office and in the possession of the Premier in

2006, he would have gone public with the information.

I ask the Premier: Is there any particular reason, once you were given those

updated numbers at that time, why you did not go public?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, when I was given the updated numbers in

August, they were just that. It was an update of four pages long. It is headed

up: An Update on Pathology Reports and Legal Action for Women Diagnosed with

Breast Cancer.

The other briefing note that I had back in October of 2005 informed me, in

that briefing note: Eastern Health is sending letters to the surgeons and other

attending physicians on the sixteen to twenty individuals whose treatment could

be impacted. When I received the August briefing note, the conclusion at the end

of it said: Eastern Health advises twenty-two women were impacted. So,

basically, it had gone from twenty to twenty-two in two briefing notes. This was

an update that was provided for information purposes.

With regard to the minister's comment on, if he had it, he would have gone

public. Well, I do not know what he had or what he did not have. He did not have

that briefing note. The following month there was a press conference whereby

Eastern Health disclosed information, even though they did not disclose all of

it, and I have no control over that, that was in the public domain. Why the

minister at that point did not decide to come to me or go public with it, he is

the only one who can answer that.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Mr. Speaker, we all know that it is only the Premier who can

remove deputy ministers from departments within a government.

I have to ask the Premier today: Was John Abbott removed as the Deputy

Minister of Health in 2007 directly related to this issue?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, the Department of Justice has informed me

that when we are passing comments in the House of Assembly on Mr. Abbott or Mr.

Tilley or Mr. Thompson, that these are people who are witnesses, who are

testifying before the inquiry. When we cast aspersions or we pass comments or we

try to attribute blames through the question, then we are affecting the

creditability of their testimony. Is that correct?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

PREMIER WILLIAMS: So we have to be very, very, very careful what we are

doing here. With regard to Mr. Abbott, Mr. Abbott was offered a transfer. Mr.

Abbott was not fired. He was not kicked out. He was offered a transfer to

another department which he decided not to accept.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Mr. Speaker, I understand the Premier's need to be careful in

how he responds to some of these questions and certainly related to individuals

who are testifying, but we are just simply asking his rationale as the Premier

for removing certain individuals in positions within government out of those

positions.

Now I understand, from your answer, that you did offer Mr. Abbott another

position as a deputy minister in another department. Would the reason for

wanting to move him out of health at that time have anything to do with what was

happening with hormone receptor testing?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I am responsible for the appointment of

deputy ministers in this government. At that particular time I felt it was

appropriate that a transfer take place, there were a lot of things happening in

the Department of Health. From time to time I will change ministers, or I would

change deputy ministers, basically, sometimes just to give them a new portfolio,

to give them a breath of fresh air, to give them a change of position, and that

was what was offered to Mr. Abbott.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Mr. Speaker, I would also like to ask the Premier as well a

similar question in relation to George Tilley, who we know was removed as the

CEO of Eastern Health in the spring of 2007.

I ask you, Premier: Would the removal of Mr. Tilley as CEO of Eastern Health

have any relation to what was happening with hormone receptor testing in this

Province at the time?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. KENNEDY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yesterday afternoon we spent quite some time discussing the role and nature

of inquiries. Although I do not expect the Opposition to accept my version of

events, what I termed Inquiries 101, I did offer the Opposition House Leader the

opportunity to read the law. The purpose of an inquiry is to determine what

happened, how it happened, who did what, and to make findings a fact.

What the Leader of the Opposition is asking here today is for the Premier to

attribute blame, to make a finding of fact that is within the jurisdiction of

the inquiry. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that this line of questioning is done

for political gain and with an attempt to not only prejudice the fairness of the

hearing but to prejudice the reputations of individuals, and it is

inappropriate.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I appreciate the comments from the minister. We are, right now, two days and

ten minutes into Question Periods on this issue. So far, other than a little bit

of testiness from one side or the other, the questions have been above board,

straightforward and for the most part the answers have been fairly forthcoming,

no one denied that.

I can appreciate, if the Premier has any sensitivities to giving a comment

that might impact or undermine anyone, that is his pejorative to say, I do not

feel comfortable answering that and I am not going to answer it. That is his

pejorative. There is nothing wrong with these questions being asked, nothing

whatsoever. It is the Premier's prerogative or anyone's prerogative over

there, if they do not want to answer them, not to answer.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the member to pose his question.

Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, my next question, again for the Premier, Robert Thompson was the

Clerk of the Executive Council in 2005. The Clerk usually holds, I think, daily

briefings with the Premier, or regular briefings with the Premier to discuss

issues. We know that Mr. Thompson was advised of the problems related to the

hormone receptor testing on July 19, 2005.

I ask the Premier: Did Mr. Thompson, as the Clerk of your Council, ever

mention this issue to you in July of 2005, and if you cannot recall, have you

asked Mr. Thompson regarding that issue?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I cannot recall a conversation with Mr.

Thompson on that particular issue. Mr. Thompson would brief me, not on a daily

basis. It was sometimes on an extended basis, sometimes it could be as long as a

month when we sat down for briefings. Mr. Thompson and his staff, I have not

made a direct question to Mr. Thompson as to whether I did have it, but it has

been requested as to whether there were any conversations with Mr. Thompson, and

to my knowledge there were none.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Mr. Speaker, the e-mail from Mr. Thompson to the Premier's

office on July 19, 2005, has become a major piece of evidence in this commission

of inquiry. Even though Mr. Thompson -

AN HON. MEMBER: ( Inaudible.)

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the member to continue with her question.

MS JONES: If he has a point of order, you can stand up.

Even though Mr. Thompson has been subpoenaed to testify, and even though he

is directly involved in this matter, government refuses to admit there is any

conflict of interest by him acting as the government liaison to the commission.

I ask the Premier: Do you acknowledge this conflict, and will you remove Mr.

Thompson from the position as liaison officer to the commission for government?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: I answered that question yesterday, Mr. Speaker, and

the same answer stands today. So you just read Hansard.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Mr. Speaker, I think it is important to point out here that so

far we have the Minister of Health, who was informed of this problem in July,

the deputy minister, the assistant deputy minister, Communications Director in

Health, the Clerk of the Executive Council, the Secretary of the Cabinet, the

Premier's Chief of Staff and his Communications Director, and they all knew

about the problem in July of 2005; yet, there is no recollection of any of these

individuals informing the Premier.

Mr. Speaker, my question is: What changes, Premier, are you making in your

office to ensure that you are going to be advised on important issues in the

future that are facing the lives of people in this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, all of the people who have just been

named, and all of the other people who are involved in this inquiry who have

anything to do with the government, I have said from day one, I will accept full

responsibility for their actions at the end of the day. So, whether I was

advised or whether I was not advised, I accept full responsibility as the head

of the Province and Premier of the government.

With regard to the 125,000-plus communications that come to our office in the

run of a year - and I would suggest it is probably, if you take the phone calls,

it is probably 175,000, but a 125,000 estimate - with regard to those, if items

come to our office or are suggested that no action is required then we will not

take action on them, because we do not have the luxury of acting on and

investigating and pursuing 125,000-plus contacts in the course of a year.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yesterday my colleague, the Leader of the NDP, raised an issue regarding the

October 2005 Cabinet paper that was tabled by the commission. In the document,

communication strategies were outlined referencing the ER-PR testing, and how to

deflect negative attention related to this issue.

I ask the Premier today: Was there any discussion on that issue in Cabinet in

October or November of 2005, and, if not, how did your Cabinet know what the

ER-PR issue was that was so strongly referenced in this Cabinet paper?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: We read the Independent , we watched NTV, and we

listened to CBC on their reporting on it, the same as everybody else in the

Province did.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Mr. Speaker, the other part of my question was: Was it part of

any Cabinet discussion during that time when this Cabinet paper came to the

Cabinet table?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Absolutely not, Mr. Speaker. There was no discussion of

ER-PR. This was an approval of the Herceptin drug, a very straightforward

approval that comes, as a matter of fact, as hon. members opposite know, when

they are in Cabinet. Drugs that are of urgency, or very important drugs that are

very important to the people of this Province from a health care perspective,

when they come to Cabinet, unless there is some major objection, someone is

aware of some health deficiency or some health problem with a drug, they are

virtually rubber-stamped. Now that may be a very loosey-goosey term to use but

that is, in fact, the case.

The reference to ER-PR in this particular Cabinet paper was attached to a

communications plan and it was never discussed.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Mr. Speaker, we know that government had copies of the peer

reviews that were completed at the laboratory of Eastern Health. We know that

major problems were identified by the pathologist who did the review, and

recommendations were made for improvements. The Premier has stated that the

Commission of Inquiry was initiated to ensure that this system is improved. If

this is the case, I ask the Premier: Why did government allow Eastern Health to

go to court in an attempt to block the release of these peer reviews that were

designed to help improve the laboratory?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, the parties to that particular action,

some of the parties - I don't know whether other interested parties were there

- were Eastern Health and the commission. Both sides were presented to the

court. It was a matter before the courts. It was not our place to intervene.

Equally important, I was satisfied that the commissioner actually had those

peer reviews. It was about using those peer reviews and making them public. It

was not a question of those peer reviews not being available to Madam Justice

Cameron. So I took some comfort in the fact that, even if the courts decided

against her using them publicly, that she in fact had those reviews and could

use those to come to conclusions to make findings at the end of the inquiry.

From government's perspective, we were not a party to that particular

action and we just basically stood back and let the courts do what they had to

do.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, at this stage the Premier must have realized that Eastern Health

had not done a good job at informing patients about this issue, or at raising

public awareness about it, or at managing it through this process. Here they are

now attempting to file a case in the courts to have information withheld from

the public.

I have to ask the Premier again - because of that action of Eastern Health,

it delayed the process of this inquiry. Again, I have to ask: Why wasn't there

some urgency at this stage within government to at least intervene and say:

Listen, we want to make sure these documents are going to be available to the

public. We are having a full, open process. We are not going to allow you to go

to court and block the release of this information.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, this was more of a moot legal point. These

documents were already in the hands of the inquiry. They already had the

documents. I spoke with Mr. Coffey while I was being interviewed and he

indicated that they had the benefit of the information already at the inquiry.

This was a legal point about whether those documents could be referred to or

made public. That is a matter between the inquiry and Eastern Health.

There is also another issue which is related here. There is the whole

question of peer review and doctors, and how things are handled, and whether

they are comfortable with the system.

If people who are going to do peer reviews and pass judgment on doctors'

actions are going to be subject to exposure, then the Medical Association

not ourselves, but the Medical Association - are very concerned that can then

all of a sudden become public. If that happens, then what situation do we have

with doctors who need to be reviewed and need to be checked?

So, it is a medical ethical question as well; but, from our perspective, we

were quite satisfied that that review and those documents, or those reviews and

those documents, were clearly in the hands of the commission.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

A related question. In February 2006 the Department of Health received a

letter from Dr. Banerjee, who had done one of the two reviews of the lab at

Eastern Health. In his letter he expressed concern to the Department of Health

regarding pathology shortages in the immediate future. In the past two years, I

have to ask, what has government done to address this issue with regard to

pathologists in Newfoundland and Labrador?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, the current Minister of Health is not here

today because he is waiting to testify. I do not know if the Minister of Finance

has information on this, but what I do have is three pages here of things that

government has done to make improvements since August 2005 to September 2007. I

can go through this list, if you want, and you can cut me off when my forty-five

seconds are up, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order please!

Before the hon. Premier goes down that route, I would like to ask the hon.

Premier if he would make reference to the documents that he has there rather

than reading from them. The Chair has already ruled on that in previous days.

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, there is a list of improvements that

government has done, that can be released through the Department of Health or

through the Department of Finance, a number of things that we have done in order

to make improvements over there. Of course, obviously, Herceptin is one of them,

but there are three pages of things that have been done.

Whether there has been anything done specifically with regard to

pathologists, I would have to defer to the Minister of Health. Perhaps we could

come up with an answer tomorrow for you on that. At least I will have one of the

other ministers come up with an answer. The Minister of Finance (inaudible)? Do

you know that?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS JONES: If you have some information that you want to contribute,

because I have a letter here from the Department of Health that was written to

this pathologist on April 18, 2006. Basically, it was the department taking some

exception to the fact that shortages of pathologists may have contributed in

some way to what was happening with regard to the breast cancer screening issue

within the Province.

I would like to have some clarification from the minister on why this letter

was sent, why the offence was taken, and what has been done to correct the

problem with pathologists in the Province.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury

Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. T. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I do not know the reason that instigated

the letter that you are referring to, but I can advise that, with respect to

dealing with the question of the shortage of pathologists, the government agreed

to pay a stipend to the pathologists of between $50,000 and $60,000, similar to

the stipend that is being paid to oncologists.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Mr. Speaker, my next questions are again indirectly related in

that they concern the mammography equipment in the Province.

Right now we are aware that there are twelve analog mammography units that

are located across the Province. Many of them are ten years or older, and this

means that they are either at the end of their life or past the usage of what is

effective for the kind of work that they do. Anyway, there is a requirement for

newer digital mammography equipment throughout Newfoundland and Labrador, and I

ask the minister if his government is prepared to commit to funding for new

mammography equipment in our hospitals in Newfoundland and Labrador?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I can inform the hon. member opposite that

two months ago, back in February, we had already approved in the upcoming Budget

I don't want to scoop the minister, but it is important information - some

considerable time ago we have already approved mammography units. The number I

cannot tell you exactly but it has already been approved.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to pose questions to the Premier to get clarification both from

my question yesterday and the answer he gave to the Leader of the Opposition

today.

The documents that were prepared for at least in relation to the

Cabinet meeting that was held on November 4, 2005, to discuss the approval of

drug therapies, including Herceptin for treating breast cancer, they amount to

thirty pages. I guess what I want to know from the Premier is: Are you telling

us that none of these documents were given to the Cabinet, were not part of the

Cabinet's briefing documents for having that discussion? Is that what you are

telling us?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: No, Mr. Speaker, what I have said is that I have

not said this, but what has happened is - these documents are part of the

Cabinet documentation. What I have said is that they were not discussed. There

was no discussion on ER-PR at the Cabinet table. We have already checked with

the Clerk, checked with the minutes, and recollection not all ministers, I

haven't talked to all ministers on it but recollection for myself is that

there was absolutely no discussion, that this was a very, very straightforward

approval and it just went through with an okay, basically.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MS MICHAEL: Well then, my question for the Premier is: May I assume that

you read those briefing documents and that you would have an expectation that

Cabinet would have read them, and was there anything in those documents that put

up any red flags for you, for example the communications strategy, that you

would have wanted to discuss, and if so, why didn't you?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, this is a communications plan that was

attached. It has three paragraphs in it which reference ER/PR, and they

basically talk about what was in the public domain as a result of the media that

occurred on October 5. The date of draft of this document that I have before me

is October 25, so this was some three weeks after it first appeared. It talks

about the general

preamble, exactly what happened with regard not what

happened with regard to the tests, it talks about the tests. Then it talks about

Gerry Rogers and her comments in the Globe and Mail , and it talks about

comments that are attributed to Mr. Peter Dawe. It also talks about the national

media on this matter which is a CBC story on October 20 th as

well. It is an information package that basically indicates what has been there

in the public domain.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

What concerns me, as I read these documents and that is why I am asking

the Premier is that in the strategic considerations that are described in

another part of those thirty documents we are told that the recent media

coverage that the Premier has just referred to has caused a loss of confidence

in the health system in the public, and that approving the drug would, in actual

fact, help deal with that loss of confidence.

Doesn't it disturb the Premier that a decision around this drug would

strategically be good, because the public will feel better, and number two, it

will help us with negotiations with physicians who have been lobbying for these

drugs? Both those things are in these papers. Doesn't that disturb the

Premier, that kind of thinking?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: It doesn't disturb me, Mr. Speaker, that there are

another fifty-odd, I am guessing, items of things that have been done as well to

improve the health care system. I would suggest, if you go back over the last

five years there are probably several hundreds or thousands of things that have

been done by our government to improve the health care system, and we will do it

again.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: And we will continue to do so.

From our perspective, one important piece of clarification that needs to be

repeated here: The improper testing had stopped, new testing was being done at

Mount Sinai, past testing was being checked and we were informed that patients

were being notified. It was in good hands as far as we knew. What was in the

public domain, we were certainly aware of, and we were doing whatever we could

to improve the health care system in this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, yesterday in Question Period the Premier made a comment someway

through our questions back and forth, that he would seek the advice or have the

Minister of Justice check with the Cameron Inquiry to decide if the line of

question that was being pursued is indeed appropriate in the House. It was

reported in the media as well this morning, that that actually transpired here,

and Hansard will show it did.

I am just wondering if the Premier or the minister can advise us if they have

made that inquiry of the Justice Cameron Inquiry and, if so, can we have a copy

of that correspondence? If not, when do you intend to get it done, and would you

provide us with a copy?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice and the Attorney General.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. KENNEDY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I can inform the Opposition House Leader that discussions have, in fact,

ensued, that there has been no ruling by the commission, that the decision made

by the government is that questions put to us will be asked, but there is a thin

line that I, as Minister of Justice, have to be cognizant of.

I will specifically refer to the fact, yesterday the Opposition House Leader

said: Well, I am not referring to evidence; I am referring to process and

procedure. And all I have heard from the Leader of the Opposition is questions

about evidence at the inquiry.

I will repeat what I said yesterday, your opinions are exactly that,

opinions. Facts will be decided by the commissioner and the inquiry.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The time for questions and answers has expired.

Presenting Reports by Standing and Select Committees.

Tabling of Documents.

Notices of Motion.

Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given.

Petitions.

Orders of the Day.

Orders of the Day

Private Members' Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, being that today is Wednesday, Private Members'

Day, I believe that we automatically go at 3:00 o'clock to - I just checked

the Order Paper. I do not believe there is anything else that we need to do

other than go to - and there isn't, Mr. Speaker.

So, Wednesday being Private Members' Day, we will proceed to the order for

business today of private members.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to present the private member's motion, and it is for fair

bargaining for nurses in our Province. Mr. Speaker, I would like to read the

context of the motion into the record for Hansard.

WHEREAS nurses are currently in negotiations with the provincial government

on a new contract; and

WHEREAS nurses in this Province are the lowest paid in the entire country;

and

WHEREAS there is a nursing shortage in our Province and little success has

been achieved in addressing recruitment and retention issues; and

WHEREAS previous nursing shortages were cyclical, the current shortage is

structural in nature, characterized by such things as an aging nursing workforce

and fierce market competition; and

WHEREAS job stress and dissatisfaction are driving nurses to leave the

profession in record numbers;

THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that this House of Assembly call upon the provincial

government to end the practice of pattern bargaining when dealing with

specialized professions such as nursing that are faced with critical recruitment

and retention issues.

Mr. Speaker, we wanted to introduce that motion in the House of Assembly

today for debate, for a couple of reasons. One, it is what nurses out there have

been asking for. They want to see some non-pattern bargaining as it relates to

their profession and their union, and they are simply asking because of the

critical situation they are finding themselves in, in the Province today. As you

know, their request has been supported by the Newfoundland and Labrador Medical

Association and we wanted to add our voice to what they are doing and to be able

to support them in the Legislature in some way to try and achieve this.

What we do know, Mr. Speaker, is that there are over 5,000 nurses in our

Province who are working in hospitals and long-term care, community and

education centres, and research. We know that in the third quarter of this year

there were a total of 133 vacancies in our Province, but in the fourth quarter

these numbers rose to 440 vacancies, more than 300 more vacancies of nurses

within our hospitals throughout Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, the Eastern Health Authority had something like sixty-three

external recruitment postings from the third quarter and there was an increase

of 313 postings in the fourth quarter. That is magnificent numbers, when you are

talking about the number of vacancies in our health care sector.

Mr. Speaker, we already heard this morning, as early as this morning, what

the impact is on patients and in our health care sector whenever you have

nursing shortages. For example, in response to a question I asked in the House

yesterday about patients sleeping on stretchers in the ER at the Health Sciences

Centre - I heard a lady on this morning, I think her name was Norma Baker, who

was basically explaining that sometimes they do close beds at Eastern Health

because they have a shortage of nurses and a shortage of staff and they are not

always able to make all the beds available. Basically, what she was saying is

that on any particular day there are times when beds are actually closed. It

just so happens that as of yesterday they had every bed open that they could

make available.

Anyway, Mr. Speaker, any time there are shortages of nurses in our health

care sector it impacts upon the patients and the delivery of health care. We

have seen that in hospitals all throughout this Province and in our own

districts. In fact, recently I was in Gander and I visited the hospital there.

At that particular time, there was a shortage of almost forty nurses in that

particular hospital. In fact, there were nurses that were working in management

positions, who were actually filling in on shift work throughout the hospital

because there was such a shortage. They were also calling around to other

hospitals in the region trying to get nurses to come and cover off shifts. That

was the extremity of the problem that they were dealing with.

We all went through this piece last summer and now the numbers are higher. We

had less vacancies of nurses in the Province during the summer than we actually

do today. Last summer we know what happened. There were many nurses in this

Province who could not take their holidays, could not go on vacation with their

families, and were not allowed to even have a sick day because there was no one

to replace them. They were going to work sick. They were pulling double shifts,

working up to sixteen and eighteen hours a day without a break. This is what was

happening throughout the summer in hospitals in this Province when we were on

break from this Legislature.

Today, we have more nurses that are vacant. We have a bigger problem today

than we had a few months ago. So, unless we move to make some correction to the

problem, we are going to find ourselves in a worse situation come this summer.

For example, I think it was last summer - and you can correct me because it may

be Gander, but I think it was Grand Falls hospital that actually had to close

down a lot of their day surgery operations. They could not do it because they

did not have the staff to be able to it.

So, whenever you have procedures being cancelled, day surgeries being closed,

beds being closed, management working on nursing shifts and nurses pulling

double time, if that is not an indication that we have a huge problem when it

comes to recruiting and retaining nurses in our health care sector, I don't

know how much more obvious it can be.

Mr. Speaker, the gap between nurses across the country in wages is what

stands out for me the most. The fact is that nurses in our Province are the

lowest paid of any nurses across Canada, and that in itself should be a reason

for government to seriously look at how they can at least bring these nurses to

a level of parity with the other provinces of Canada or at least on par with the

national average.

I think that government cannot ignore the fact that one of the major

challenges that we have in recruiting nurses today in this Province is the fact

that we pay the least money. As long as we pay the least money, we are going to

be the last option for many of them when they come looking for a job. The only

real advantage that we have is being able to keep our own people working in our

own Province, and even in recent years that has become more of a challenge. We

have seen a net out-migration of workers right across the board for the last

number of years. We are seeing workers in every sector, Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians in every sector, working elsewhere in this country. All I am saying

is that if we do not at least allow for nurses to work in this Province and to

work at a wage that is on par with other provinces throughout Canada, then we

are going to have a major problem with recruiting.

Mr. Speaker, I think that what the Nurses' Union is asking here, and being

supported by the Medical Association, is a fair request. It is a fair request

because, when you look at the magnitude of the problem that we are faced with

right now in the nursing profession, how it is impacting every other sector of

health care in this Province, you cannot ignore the issue any longer. It is not

any more an issue about converting nurses from casual to full time. That is only

part of it. It is no longer about trying to offer up some better benefit

packages. That would help, but it is not the only issue.

Mr. Speaker, this is a major problem that deals with a major shortage, and I

think the only real way that we are going to be competitive is that we have to

have better working conditions for our nurses - that will come with adding more

to the system - and also being able to pay them a wage that is a decent wage for

the professional responsibilities and the job that they take on.

High levels of job dissatisfaction, Mr. Speaker, related to their scheduling,

unrealistic workloads, mandatory overtime, and hospital administrators' lack

of responsiveness to nurses' concerns, have all resulted in a high turnover.

That, Mr. Speaker, combined with the fact that we are seeing a lot of nurses

retiring from our system, we are into a

section of the population now where many

of our nurses are going into retirement, it is becoming more and more difficult

to fill the positions.

Mr. Speaker, recruitment and retention strategies that focus on loan

repayment programs and scholarships for nursing students, more public service

announcements and advertising campaigns to encourage people to enter into the

nursing profession, need to be done. We need to be ensuring that we are getting

into the schools and we are promoting this. We need to ensure that there are

going to be grants out there for nurses that ensure best practices within the

health care system, and we also need to have training grants to develop and

incorporate nurses into new curriculums that are being developed.

Mr. Speaker, New Brunswick introduced initiatives that allowed senior nurses

to reduce their work hours without jeopardizing their pensions, and this could

be an incentive for those who are finding the hours too gruelling to stay on any

longer. That was just an innovative way that they were able to keep some of

their nurses who were going to exit the profession and retire, to keep them

working for longer periods of time. I do not know if the minister has looked at

what they have done in New Brunswick, but it has certainly been a successful

initiative for them, where they were able to retain more retired nurses at

reduced workloads.

Mr. Speaker, we know from other studies that more health care workers retire

early, before the age of sixty-five, than people in any other profession - about

49 per cent, compared to 43 per cent in other fields. RNs in particular tend to

retire around the age of fifty-six or fifty-eight, and we know that RNs as a

group are aging, so we can expect retirement to place increasing pressures on

the nursing workforce. If we had effective retention strategies maybe we could

make a difference within the profession, to be able to keep more people there

longer.

Mr. Speaker, pattern bargaining is a process whereby the trade union would

produce a new and advanced entitlement from one employer. It is used as a

precedent in order to demand the same or superior from other employers. That

simply means, Mr. Speaker, it is an opportunity for any particular union or

group, such as nurses, to go into a bargaining process with their employer, in

this case being government, to negotiate a selective deal that would apply only

to them, that would not necessarily be the pattern or the standard that would be

transformed throughout the system of all other employees within that particular

company or entity, in this case being government.

Now, in the past in this Province we have had a long history of pattern

bargaining, of whatever deal is struck with one union would apply to other

unions. There may have been some little exceptions in terms of some benefits or

some agreements, but for the most part when you deal with wages and the major

pieces, like sick benefits and things like that, is has always been the

standard. Well, Mr. Speaker, in order to raise the standards of the nursing

profession you almost have to move outside that pattern bargaining, because

there has to be and I know this. The Minister of Finance, I am sure, knows

it better than any of us. It has to be an affordability issue for government as

well. If government sits down and they look at this and they say, we cannot

afford to bring nurses up to parity with the rest of the country and then we

able to go out and offer that to every other public sector union in the Province

and maybe that would be the case. Maybe they cannot do that. Maybe it is

impossible financially for them to look at that.

What I am saying is, don't compromise the integrity of the health care

system and don't compromise the ability to be able to attract nurses in this

Province because we cannot afford to be able to do the same for every other

single public service group or organization. I think we have reached a point

where we have to look at different professions at different levels. I say that

only because we are dealing with a profession today that finds itself in a

crises position.

Mr. Speaker, it is a crisis. When you go from a shortage of nurses in

September of about 140-odd nurses, I think it was, 133, to over 400 in December

in a very few short months, it is indicative of a significant problem that has

been developing. Mr. Speaker, we wanted to add our voice to this and to support

the non-pattern bargaining for nurses in the Province. We certainly understand

their concerns and the issues they are being faced with.

Mr. Speaker, we hear from nurses on a regular basis. In fact, there are

members in this House of Assembly who I know have been getting e-mails from

nurses on a regular basis with as much detail as telling them what their

schedule is today, what their workload is today and what their expectation has

been.

Mr. Speaker, the Member for Conception Bay South is looking at me and yes, I

am talking about him. I have gotten a number of e-mails from nurses in his

district as well, and I know he has. They are very detailed and explicit in

terms of the challenges that they are faced with, the workloads that they are

incurred with, the demands that are being placed on their time and the levels of

frustration that they are feeling working within the health care system in this

Province.

So, Mr. Speaker, there is lots of evidence of what these individuals are

being faced with. We do not have to go back a year and find out what happened in

the summer when we had surgeries cancelled in hospitals and nurses being refused

vacation time. We only have to go back to the last few days and find out what

nurses have been enduring within various hospitals across the Province and it is

simply because there is a shortage of over 400 nurses in this Province today and

something needs to be done to address that problem.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury

Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. T. MARSHALL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Minister of Health is, unfortunately, engaged elsewhere today. I know

that he would have liked to have been here to take

part in this debate and to

talk about the resolution that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has put

forward, a resolution that talks about the nursing profession in this Province,

a profession that is respected by, I am sure, every member in this House of

Assembly.

I can assure you that our government, and I am sure every member of the House

of Assembly, values very much the dedication and the commitment of our nursing

workforce, which the Leader of the Opposition pointed out, numbers over 5,000

people in this Province. In fact, nurses represent the majority of the numbers

in our health care workforce. I am pleased that our government has, in fact,

taken steps over the past years and is committed to taking additional steps as

outlined in our blueprint, to take additional steps to support our nurses in

this Province.

In my first Budget, Budget 2007, it provided $1.6 million to complete the

hiring of thirty-nine public health nursing positions approved last year. There

was increased funding of $90,000 for the Rural Student Nursing Incentive

Program. That was used to assist senior bachelor of nursing students to complete

clinical placement in rural and remote communities.

I know, Mr. Speaker, when we talk about attracting medical professionals, how

important it is to attract these professionals to the rural regions of the

Province. That goes right across all professions, the medical profession, the

health professions and indeed all professions, to attract workers to Labrador

and to the great Northern Peninsula and to the Burin Peninsula. I have been told

by senior health officials and I have been told by, for example, officials with

the medical association, that the shortages in the medical profession and the

shortages in the health profession, the issue is worldwide. Therefore, everyone

is all over the world attempting to attract these additional health workers. So,

it is not just here in Newfoundland and Labrador. I saw on the news the other

day in Prince Edward Island, comments and concerns expressed by nurses in that

province that are very similar to many of the concerns that our own nurses have

here in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Now, other initiatives we have taken is that $1 million was invested as a

result of Budget 2007, to extend the duration of an orientation program for new

nursing graduates in frontline practice with the program up and running up to

eight weeks. Also, government insured the continued funding of $75,000 for nurse

practitioners primary health care bursaries. Students receive a bursary of

$5,000 in exchange for one year return service.

As I said earlier, I am very pleased that the blueprint - our commitments for

the future are to further increase the number of nursing seats. We know that

young people will always be attracted to travel and to see different parts of

the world, but in this Province we do train nurses at two locations here in St.

John's, at the university - and also at Western Memorial Regional Hospital in

Corner Brook nurses are trained. As a result of that, fortunately, we have been

retaining, I understand, about 70 per cent to 72 per cent of the graduating

nurses who do stay in this Province. I am glad that we have made a commitment in

our blueprint to further increase the number of nursing seats in the Province of

Newfoundland and Labrador.

In 2007, 187 new graduates secured full-time, permanent nursing positions in

this Province, and the majority of them from the nursing schools in this

Province. As of today, we have hired an additional 150 new graduates for this

year. There were additional positions for others to have that opportunity as

well, and that is significant and we are committed to building on that success.

This past year, Mr. Speaker, 101 bursaries and sign on bonuses were approved

to provide incentives to recruit registered nurses to difficult-to-fill

positions, totaling $579,000, and the majority of these resulted in two-year

returning service commitments. So, that is an indication of some of the things

we are doing, but, obviously, in future we have committed to do more.

Now, Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult for me in my capacity as President of

Treasury Board in what I say here today in dealing with this motion and speaking

to this resolution because at this point we are in bargaining with three unions.

We have not reached a statement with either of them at this point and I

certainly do not want to prejudge the outcomes of the discussions and

negotiations that are going on. Hopefully, we will be able to reach a settlement

that is satisfactory to all parties.

We are negotiating with the Nurses' Union at this point, with CUPE and with

NAPE, and that affects approximately 35,000 employees. Negotiations will start

later this year with other groups and in 2009 with the remaining groups. In

total, our members will be interested in knowing, that there are thirty-four

public sector collective agreements covering over 35,000 employees.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I guess when a minister takes over a new position you will

always remember the first people you meet when you take over that position. I

know when I first became Minister of Justice and Attorney General of the

Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, the first person I met was the Mayor of

Postville, who expressed to me in a very eloquent and sincere way the desire of

his community to have RCMP Officers, and I have never forgotten that. I never

forgot when I met with the Mayor of Gander about his concern for RCMP Officers

and, fortunately, we were able to put additional RCMP Officers in Central

Newfoundland and in the Town of Gander. I met with him today and he explained to

me that all the vacant positions that previously existed with the RCMP are now

filled, and how much they have appreciated the fact that government has, in

fact, made the commitment to place additional police officers.

When I became President of the Treasury Board, one of the first groups I met

with was with the President of the Nurses' Union, Ms Forward; and, of course,

that was for the purposes of signing the previous collective agreement. Of

course, I had no role whatsoever in the negotiation of that agreement, but that

is where I met Ms Forward and John Vivian, the Executive Director of the Nurses'

Union. I believe that was in January 2007 and I just had been appointed Minister

of Finance in December 2006.

I think it was in September of that year I received a letter from Ms Forward

expressing a number of concerns affecting the nursing profession, many of which

the Leader of the Opposition outlined here today. These issues, of course, we

have all received these e-mails - I have received them, and other members of

this House have received them - and I want to assure the people who have sent

those messages that they have been read and that the concerns we take very

seriously.

I had a letter from Ms Forward, I think it was in September of that year, in

which she expressed concerns and asked that we tear up the previous collective

agreement or reopen - that is probably better wording the collective

agreement and negotiate a new one. I indicated that government was not prepared

to do that - that an agreement had been negotiated, it had been accepted by all

sides, it had been signed - but what government was prepared to do, we were

prepared to start negotiations to the new collective agreement right away

because of the concerns that she, as president of the union, had indicated both

to me and she had said them publicly. Of course, although I have only been in

politics for one term, I have followed comments made by Ms Forward in the past.

She has been the president of that union for many years.

She was pleased with that, and we agreed that we would start the negotiations

earlier. I think under the previous contract negotiations were not supposed to

commence until some time around April of this month, but we agreed to start

right away back in November. The Nurses' Union did indicate a desire to have -

before we got into negotiations, they expressed a desire to have interest-based

discussions, not only with the Public Service Secretariat but also with the

Department of Health and also with the Regional Health Authorities. That process

took place over two days . I think it was a good process, and I think it was

well received by all concerned, to set the stage before we got into actual

negotiation and bargaining.

Mr. Speaker, we are at the table with the nurses today. Negotiations are

ongoing. I can tell you that the parties negotiated through last weekend. We

will be in negotiations next week with CUPE, with the aid of a conciliator. We

have exchanged proposals with NAPE, and we intend to expedite those negotiations

with NAPE, so the process is ongoing. It is therefore important that, as

President of Treasury Board, I not carry out negotiations, obviously, in this

Chamber. The negotiations must take place at the table, and that is where they

are taking place; and, as the Minister of Health always says, they are taking

place as we speak.

We know the nurses have serious issues, and we take those issues seriously,

and we are prepared and we are discussing those issues with the nurses where

they should be discussed, which is at the bargaining table. We have issues as

well, and we want to discuss those with the nurses; and, of course, we are and

we will continue to discuss those issues with the Nurses' Union.

Collective bargaining, of course, is a process that requires the parties to

employment. As I said, we are currently engaged in that process and it would be

inappropriate for me to comment on pattern bargaining or any other aspect of

negotiations with the Nurses' Union or any other group while the parties are

at the bargaining table, so I will refrain from doing so and I would encourage

all other members to refrain from that aspect of the discussion here today.

We respect this process, but once again it is very important that we do not

interfere with negotiations by making inappropriate comments here in the House

of Assembly. I will say, however, that it is this government's intention to

negotiate agreements that recognize the contributions of our public sector

workers. These agreements must be reasonable and they must be responsible, and

they must be sustainable and in the long-term interests of the people of this

Province.

Now, Mr. Speaker, accordingly, I would like to move an amendment to this

resolution. I will just get my copy of the motion here. The motion talks about,

nurses are currently in negotiations which, of course, is true. It says the

nurses are the lowest paid in the entire country - and that is true; that there

is a nursing shortage in the Province and little success has been achieved

but there have been efforts, there certainly have been efforts, to address

recruitment and retention issues. There is an aging workforce - and we have an

aging workforce not only in the Nurses' Union but we see it in many other of

our unions and our employees. We saw it with the RNC and we took steps to deal

with the RNC through a new police recruiting program, which is graduating new

recruits that are aiding the RNC, changing the whole culture of the RNC, a

younger and a new police force. It has been so successful that it has encouraged

some of the older RNC officers who are eligible to retire - in fact, a lot of

them are postponing their retirements.

I would like to move an amendment to the motion because of the fact that the

motion only speaks about specialized professions. I have to raise the question:

What about other groups? They are important as well. I realize that there are

certain groups that have certain specialized qualifications and specialized

training but, of course, all our workers, all of our employees, are important to

this government. I have met with many of the unions, and obviously each group

feels that they are special in some way. I can only say that all of our workers

and all of our employees are special to this government. We value the work of

all public sector employees, and the contributions that they make every day to

the people of this Province and in the service of the people of this Province.

I think one of the things that I have learned: when I first entered public

life and became elected to this House of Assembly, I don't think I

appreciated, before I got here, the valuable contribution that the public

servants of this Province have made, and I have learned that this government is

blessed to have working for it people with the highest qualifications and people

who have dedicated their lives to the service of all the other citizens of

Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, I will move an amendment to the motion. I hope it is in order,

but I move that the resolution be amended by deleting the last paragraph of the

resolution and substituting, therefore, the following, "Therefore

be it

resolved that this House of Assembly calls on the Provincial Government to

continue to bargain fairly and equitably with specialized professions, such as

nursing, as it does with all of its employees."

Mr. Speaker, I am moving that, seconded by the Government House Leader, for

your consideration, Sir.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair has been handed the amendment as put forward by the hon. Minister

of Finance and President of Treasury Board. The House will now take a brief

recess to consider if this amendment is in order.

This House now stands in recess.

Recess

MR. SPEAKER (Fitzgerald): Order please!

The Chair will just take another minute in order to get the amendment copied.

I understand that the amendment is not copied for all members to see, so if we

just take another second, please.

[The Chair takes a minute to copy the amendment]

MR. SPEAKER: Order please!

The amendment reads, "Therefore

be it resolved that this House of

Assembly calls on the Provincial Government to continue to bargain fairly and

equitably with specialized professions, such as nursing, as it does with all of

its employees."

The Chair deems this amendment to be in order.

The hon. the Member for the District of Port de Grave.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Thanks for the opportunity to be able to make a few comments with regard to

the motion that was put forward by the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair,

and also to mention the amendment put forward by the Minister of Finance.

Mr. Speaker, when I look at the motion put forward by the Opposition Leader

where it states, therefore

be it resolved that this House of Assembly calls on

the provincial government to end the practice of pattern bargaining when dealing

with specialized professions such as nursing, and when I go to the amendment

that states, the provincial government to continue to bargain fairly and

equitably with specialized professionals such as nurses, I want to say, for the

record, that I will not be supporting the amendment. Because I believe,

regardless of what process, whether it is pattern bargaining or not, you would

think that government would be dealing fairly and equitably; regardless of what

situation it is. By going with the hon. member's private motion, it does not

mean that there is any unfairness or whatever to any other profession, Mr.

Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I just want to make a few comments with regard to the situation

pertaining to the nurses. I do not think this motion intends to ignore other

professionals regardless of what occupation they come from, but at this point in

time in our Province we know the tremendous shortage that we have with nurses

and the major job that they have to do for the people of our Province and the

problems that we are encountering at the present time when it comes to health

care.

It has been mentioned by previous speakers that no doubt nurses are the

lowest paid people in this Province when it comes to nurses compared to other

provinces. The figures have been released, in some cases, by as much as 30 per

cent.

All we have to do is listen to the media from time to time and listen to the

nurses themselves. Only recently, there were two or three incidents, and I heard

one nurse reference how she has been in the profession for quite some time and

due to the stress and strain of the job and the shortage of other people there,

she even went to Boston, I think it was, for an interview. It was only due to

illness to a family member here in this Province, only for that reason alone,

that she had not moved.

She also went on to say how she was visiting relatives in Ontario last year,

and while in the airport waiting for a flight back to this Province she happened

to meet two or three or four nursing students who had graduated and were

returning from down South in the US where they had interviews and had accepted

the offers South of the Border.

Mr. Speaker, no doubt it comes down to the amount of salary they are being

paid here. We know that governments of the past found it very difficult to come

up with what some of those professions were looking for, but we find ourselves

in a better financial position today than we did back then. It is like this lady

said, with the stress and the strain and the workload that they have, this is

why a lot of our young people are leaving the Province, even though the

tremendous amount of benefits they receive by leaving this Province is compared

to here, is also an indicator of why they would move on.

Mr. Speaker, the motion also referenced recruitment and retention. All too

often we hear about the good programs we have in the Department of Education,

and the minister is after referencing several this year, and last year in the

session, about training our young people. I can relate to a story where two

young individuals, two females from my district, over the past three or four

years, who were recipients, I guess through the Department of Human Resources,

Labour and Employment, and thank God, they got into a program that was there to

assist them to be retrained. Both of them went in to be trained as nurses, and I

am sad today to say that not one of them stayed here in our Province. That is

unfortunate when we have such wonderful programs to train our young people in

the different professions, and when they get that training they think the grass

is greener, I guess, on the other side and they move to other provinces, or

outside of our country altogether. Two of those individuals today are working,

one in Ontario and one in the United States. Even though we have those

tremendous benefits to help train them, we have a problem of retaining them to

stay here in our Province. I think it has to do with the tremendous burden that

is placed on them.

I have had the opportunity to meet with nurses at the Carbonear General

Hospital from time to time, as individuals who are constituents of mine. They

tell me the workload that they have, and many of them are on shifts from ten to

twelve hours, and they find it very difficult. By visiting constituents from

time to time, I also know what their workload is like. They hardly have time to

really go and have a sensible lunch for themselves during a break.

Mr. Speaker, we hear other individuals, nurses in the profession, who talk

about job fairs that come here to our Province. All too often we see those job

fairs and the thousands of people who line up, going for the various skilled

trades in other parts of this country. One particular nurse, I heard the comment

made that there was a fair here to help nurses leave this Province and go to

other areas of Canada and the United States. She was disappointed that there was

nothing set up by, I guess, the health care system in our Province to say: Look,

why not stay here in our Province, here are benefits that we can offer you? But

that was not there and she felt that was the reason why many of them are moving

on. No doubt, I think the Minister of Finance stated that it is a fierce market.

It is not only here in our Province, it is worldwide, and we have to realize

that; even though, we have to still try and do something to retain them here.

The problems we are encountering is not only that our young people are being

trained and they move on for the bigger bucks, but we also have an aging

population when it comes to many trades, and our nurses are no different. The

stress with the job and the dissatisfaction is playing a major

part in where we

are coming from when it talks about the nurses and the tremendous job that they

do for us. I know, by speaking to one of the nurses at the Carbonear Hospital,

within the next ten to twelve years they are going to have a tremendous shortage

because of the aging population of the nurses in that facility and if we do not

see other nurses coming on stream to help build those positions, we are going to

find ourselves in a very difficult position.

Mr. Speaker, we know that - and I am not going to say anything - negotiations

are ongoing with the nurses, and that is not the intent that I want to make. I

believe we have to look very seriously at the way we negotiate, and this is the

reason the member put this private member's motion forward, that the pattern

bargaining, that when we come to the professionals - and we know each and every

trade in this Province, one is as important as the other, but we find ourselves

in a crisis situation when it comes to the nurses.

Mr. Speaker, on that note alone, I want to say that I will be supporting the

motion, and will not be supporting the amended motion. I will just pass it

along, to say that, hopefully, the system will look after it. The retention of

our nurses will be completed and, hopefully, the day will come when we will not

have to worry. We will have sufficient nurses here to carry out the jobs and

duties that they have to do for the people of this Province.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER (Collins): The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

SOME HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I certainly want to speak on the motion today and, indeed, on the amendment.

I guess it sort of disappoints me that the hon. member is not going to support

it.

If I could just read the amendment, Mr. Speaker it says, "Therefore

be it resolved that this House of Assembly calls on the Provincial Government to

continue to bargain fairly and equitably with specialized professions, such as

nursing, as it does with all of its employees."

Now, Mr. Speaker, I find it very troubling to vote against a statement like

that. It seems very straightforward. Today, as a matter of fact, the Minister of

Finance and President of Treasury Board had a few words and told us, in this

House and the listening public, that as we speak today negotiations are ongoing

with the nurses. Not only with nurses, but there have been some movements with

NAPE, with CUPE and with others, Mr. Speaker. I am excited by what is happening.

I certainly want to congratulate all those involved for becoming involved in the

bargaining process and I think we are headed in the right direction. With all

hands to the table at this time, Mr. Speaker, it is certainly good to see.

If I could, Mr. Speaker, I would certainly like to talk about nurses, just

briefly. We heard earlier from the Leader of the Official Opposition that, you

know, I was getting a few e-mails that she had gotten as well, and she is right.

Mr. Speaker, we all know nurses. They live in our districts. They are friends of

mine. I have some very good friends who are nurses. Family members many

members of this House have family members who are in the nursing profession. Mr.

Speaker, I think more importantly they are our first point of contact when there

is an emergency.

I have had occasion to deal with nurses in the last few years. I have nothing

but respect. I was never shown anything but utmost respect for me and my family

when we have been through that, Mr. Speaker. One of them a happy moment, I

guess, and one of them a sad moment, but nevertheless the nurses were by our

side right from the beginning. We certainly value their work. There is no doubt,

Mr. Speaker, that nursing is a significant wheel in our health care profession.

Certainly, we couldn't do it without them. There is no doubt that nursing is

indeed a noble profession, Mr. Speaker, but I am not so sure that it is not a

calling as well. Because of the items that they deal with on a daily basis, as

much as it is a profession I believe, certainly, that it is a calling.

Mr. Speaker, just before I go on: The Leader of the Opposition addressed

something here today, and she asked a question about it yesterday. Basically her

questions were on emergency room beds and if they were shut down because of

closures, closures of beds or closures of units. Mr. Speaker, just let me say

for the record that that is certainly not the case. It is unfortunate that we

have seasonal fluctuations in emergencies for, I guess, a variety of reasons,

many of which I cannot explain. When we come to a situation whereby we have busy

emergency rooms, it is certainly not, right now, because of beds closed or units

closed, Mr. Speaker. This House and the general public was left with that

impression, and I certainly wanted to make that rather clear, that was simply

not the case, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I want to go on and talk about the nurses. The nurses are

currently in negotiations with the Province, as we speak. Negotiations are

always a tough row to hoe. They are certainly never easy, as we have seen in any

negotiation. Anyone who has ever been involved in a negotiation realizes it is a

tough to-and-fro, and certainly any time that government negotiates with anyone

it is always a challenge to come up with an agreement, but it does my heart good

today to hear the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board enlighten

us and say that negotiations are happening as we speak.

Mr. Speaker, we all, too, in this House - and I am sure I can speak for

everyone in this government - certainly hopes for a speedy resolution; because,

the quicker we get this behind us, the quicker we can go on to worry about other

things, and I know the nurses as well would love a speedy recovery to this

issue.

Mr. Speaker, part of the original resolution talks about a fierce market

competition. Now, from my conversations with nurses - and I guess I am fortunate

in that I have taken on the task as Parliamentary Secretary with the current

minister and I work with nurses on a daily basis, many of them taking leadership

roles within the Department of Health, Mr. Speaker, very qualified,

knowledgeable, with a great deal of experience, and I must add they have taught

me quite a bit in the Department of Health.

Mr. Speaker, one thing I have learned since I have been with the department

is that there is fierce market competition. Not only is that within this

Province of Newfoundland and Labrador; it is certainly within the whole country,

and not only within the whole country. We heard the Member for Port de Grave

talk about an issue in Boston, where he had a constituent of his who has had an

interview in Boston. Mr. Speaker, in order to go to the United States you have

to have a green card in order to get a job down there. In order to get a green

card, they have to show a shortage of workers in order for you to qualify for a

green card.

Mr. Speaker, again it just goes to show that nurses there is not only a

shortage of nurses in this Province. It is a national issue. It is a North

American issue, Mr. Speaker. It is even an international issue. It is something

we have to be cognizant of; and, you are right, there is fierce competition.

I recently read somewhere, and I can't remember the Province and I can't

remember exactly what the bonus was. I don't know the bonus amount, but I know

it was some kind of incentive to come to the province - I think it was a western

province - that actually shocked me. One of our wealthier provinces, it actually

shocked me, and it followed with - they had a big, huge, problem with a shortage

of nurses. With all of the incentive programs that the Americans are having,

with all of the incentives that other provinces are putting out there, Mr.

Speaker, they still cannot fill the needs of the nursing shortage in this

province.

Mr. Speaker, let me just say as a government, and I can say certainly with

great forthright, that we are open to collaborating with the Newfoundland and

Labrador Nurses' Union, and certainly over the past four years we have made

some important investments and commitments, Mr. Speaker, to support the nursing

workforce in the Province.

First of all, Mr. Speaker, the department is engaged currently in a process

with stakeholders to develop a workforce action plan. Mr. Speaker, that

workforce action plan is certain to enhance recruitment and retention efforts

for all health care professionals, Mr. Speaker, of which I am proud to say the

Newfoundland and Labrador Nurses' Union are a part of that process.

Mr. Speaker, all regional health authorities have embarked on recruitment

initiatives within this Province and outside of our Province. The regional

health authorities have provided bonuses to recent nurses to fill difficult

positions, Mr. Speaker. Like I said, recruitment is always, in the nursing

profession, unfortunately, a big issue.

Labrador Grenfell, for example, Mr. Speaker, continues today to advertise in

national and international papers as well as local papers, of course, and

national magazines to recruit, offering a variety of things from signing bonuses

to bursaries to allowances.

Mr. Speaker, I should go on to say there are some good news stories within

the nursing recruitment. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, Western Health has done a very

good job. I guess, in fairness, it is because of the nursing school on the West

Coast of the Province. They have done a remarkable job in recruiting nurses from

this Province, Mr. Speaker, to stay and work here.

As well, Mr. Speaker, last month we introduced the Registered Nurses Act,

that improves accountability, professionalism and transparency in the case of

disciplinary actions. Mr. Speaker, this is supported, I might add again, by the

Newfoundland and Labrador Nurses' Union, to show again that this government is

certainly willing and have worked with the Nurses' Union - and the Province,

of course, have worked well together.

Basically, Mr. Speaker, this act, what it does is allow someone, a reporting

nurse, to be protected from any repercussions when acting in good faith when

reporting any kind of an incident within the health care profession. As well,

Mr. Speaker, we have funded educational leave for registered nurses as part of

the last collective agreement.

Certainly, Mr. Speaker, our government values the dedication and commitment

of the nursing workforce which numbers, right now in this Province, in excess of

5,000 people, men and women in this Province, and certainly the nurses represent

the majority of the health care workforce in our Province.

Of course, Mr. Speaker, we have taken steps to assist in the sustaining of

this workforce. Some of these steps that we have taken: in Budget 2007 we

provided $1.6 million to complete the hiring of some public health nurses across

this Province.

Now, I have had occasion to deal with public health nurses of recent -

certainly, they work in communities all throughout our Province and we have

added an additional thirty-nine.

Mr. Speaker, I don't know if many of you know what public health care

nurses do, but in actual fact these are the men and women who deal with our

newborn babies when lucky parents bring them home. The first point of contact is

usually to go to the public health nurse. They do a variety of things like weigh

them, and they know how to make them scream, too, because they always have to

give them a needle it seems. I always remember nurse Avery, some years ago, who

made me scream ever so much, too, but it is quite common that new babies -

having a one-year old, I am certainly familiar with that process. As well, Mr.

Speaker, public health nurses assess the needs of our elderly and our disabled

clients to determine the supports they require within the community.

We have increased funding to the Rural Student Nursing Incentive Program to

assist senior Bachelor of Nursing students to complete clinical placement in

rural and remote areas. We have also invested $1 million to extend the duration

of an orientation program for new nursing graduates in front line practice with

the program running up to eight weeks. We have the nurse practitioner primary

health care bursaries where students receive a bursary of $5,000 in exchange for

a one-year return in service, a program that has taken off. We have had some

success with that, and are certainly working diligently to keep nurses in this

Province.

As well, in our latest blueprint, in our latest policy document as a

government, we have made a commitment to further increase the number of nursing

seats in our nursing school. In 2007 we had approximately 187 new graduates who

secured full-time permanent nursing positions in this Province. The majority of

them, I might add, I am proud to say, come from Newfoundland and Labrador

nursing schools. Today, Mr. Speaker, up to today's date we have hired

approximately an additional 115 new graduates this year. Now, let me follow it

by saying there is work to be done, and we certainly do not have all the answers

but we are working on it and willing to work with the Nurses' Union to strive

to come up with ways to certainly retain and recruit these nursing professions.

Mr. Speaker, as well, in the past year we have had 101 bursaries, and sign-on

bonuses were approved to provide incentives to recruit Registered Nurses to

difficult to fill positions, totalling almost $600,000. The majority of these, I

might add, resulted in a two-year return of service commitment.

Mr. Speaker, another interesting statistic we have, is that we have the

highest rate of full time nurses employed in this country. Again, I am proud to

say that almost 100 per cent of these were educated right here in this Province.

We are increasing employment opportunities for nursing professionals in all

regions of our Province, working on it and hoping that negotiations, as the

Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board alluded to today, are going

on. We certainly hope for a speedy resolution and it continues down the right

path. Of course, I certainly cannot end without commenting on the Province's

chief nurse. It was a commitment we made as a government, a couple of elections

ago, and we will continue to ensure that the Province's chief nurse - that the

nursing perspective is reflected in all future health policy and planning

initiatives.

Now, like I have said over the last few minutes, we certainly do not have all

the answers. We are working with the Nurses' Union. We have worked with the

Nurses' Union in the past, and believe me when I tell you that we are not,

certainly as a government, blindsided by the issues of nurses. Like I said, we

have family, we have friends. I have spoken with many of them in the last

several months on a number of issues they are facing. Certainly, we all share

their concerns, and we share them with each other again.

So, Mr. Speaker, without any further ado, I would just like to point out that

I will certainly be supporting the amendment to the resolution.

Thank you very much.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I am very pleased to have the opportunity to speak to the motion that has

been put on the floor by the Official Opposition.

I was very pleased to speak to the motion as they presented it, and would

have been voting for that motion. I have to say that I am not going to be able

to vote for the amended motion, simply because the purpose of that amendment is

to ignore a reality that I think they know is there, whether they want to admit

it or not, and that a lot of other people know is there. It is the whole issue

of pattern bargaining. Pattern bargaining, in my book, is not something that

fits within the fair collective bargaining spirit and what fair collective

bargaining is all about. There is a reason why there are different bargaining

units in our society. One of the reasons, and this is a big one, is because the

workers in different units very often have different needs and very often they

have different requirements for their work. It is just not needs, personal

needs, it is different requirements for their work. At the same time, there are

also different requirements for the qualifications of people doing different

work. So there are a number of things around the differences of workers that

requires that you have different bargaining units and different unions, even

within those unions and the differing bargaining units.

The other reason why we have different units and also different bargaining

units within unions is the choice of workers, that workers have the choice to

choose freely who represents them. So, we may look at workers inside of the

Newfoundland and Labrador Association of Public Employees and say: Oh, they are

doing the same work as some of the workers inside the Canadian Union of Public

Employees, but whether the workers are inside of CUPE or inside of NAPE, those

workers chose freely to be where they are in terms of who represents them. So,

the first thing, for me, that really causes concern is taking away the choice of

workers and not recognizing the fair collective bargaining process.

Now, am I crazy? Are my colleagues in the Official Opposition crazy when we

say that it is pattern bargaining? I do not think so. I think a lot of people

agree with us. I certainly have heard CUPE express its concern about the

bargaining process. Not very long ago, within the past week, we have had

concerns expressed by CUPE. We have had concerns expressed by the Nurses'

Union as well. Now, I would like to think that this week things may be going

better in the negotiations for both of these groups but we cannot ignore the

fact that these unions have publicly expressed concerns.

Somebody else who has expressed concern about pattern bargaining is the

Newfoundland and Labrador Medical Association, as recently as March 15 when the

Executive Director of NLMA talked about pattern bargaining. He said: I think

pattern bargaining is very dangerous. Pattern bargaining makes the assumption

that everything is as it should be. He went on to say: Pattern bargaining is,

whoever negotiates first will determine what circumstances are for everybody

else, and if the government is not going to bother with the facts, then we are

doomed. I think that was an extremely important point that the Executive

Director of the NLMA made, that the government has to deal with facts. The

government cannot go on ignoring what people are telling them. Whether those

people are nurses, whether those people are working in other services in the

health care system and the public sector, facts are facts.

That leads me, then, to go on and present some facts. The Leader of the

Official Opposition made reference to e-mails that are coming in to the hon.

Member for Conception Bay South, he made reference to the e-mails, but neither

one of them talked about the content of some of those e-mails. I am going to

talk about the content of some of them, because these are the facts. I don't

have the permission from the person who has sent these e-mails to table them. I

don't know who this person is. It is a female nurse and we have her name. If I

get the permission, I will table these e-mails, if I get that written permission

from her. For the moment I can't give her name, but she is a real person, she

works in ICU.

What she is doing and I notice that my hon. colleague, the Member for

Conception Bay South, didn't bother to say what she is going is that she

is documenting every time she is being called back to work. Now, this is not a

part-time worker, this is a full-time worker in ICU. That means she has her

regular shift all the time and she is being called back. She has bee notifying

the hon. Member for Conception Bay South, myself, the Leader of the Official

Opposition, the Minister of Health and the Premier. She has been writing, I

presume and I am fairly sure about this, that the Member for Conception Bay

South is her MHA. The e-mails are going to him but she is copying to the rest of

us, the Premier, the Minister of Health, the Leader of the Official Opposition

and myself. She is sending the e-mail every time she gets called back.

Now, the government talks about facts. I heard the Member for Conception Bay

South talk about facts. Well, here are some facts. This woman, since March 26 up

to April 7 which was twelve days, in twelve days she got desperate callbacks

three times. Now, that is on top of having done her regular shifts, and we all

know what the nurses shifts are like. On top of her regular shifts she has been

called back three times. Sometimes she was able to take it and sometimes she was

too tired or had family obligations and could not.

She says in her e-mail of March 26: I worked a callback on Good Friday and

still my phone rang on Easter Sunday to request me to work yet another shift, a

full one or a partial one or anything I would be will willing to do.

She goes on, on March 31, and said that she had just gotten a 6:00 a.m.

callback from work. Again her supervisor, desperate, asking her: Can't you

please come in? Can you come in for any period of time at all?

In her e-mail of April 7, when she had gotten another callback as a

matter of fact, it was her weekend off and she had two calls that weekend to

work an overtime shift.

I am really interested in the fact that the Member for Conception Bay South

acknowledged his e-mails but did not bother to share this nurse's story here

on this floor, because that is why she is sending these e-mails, so that we will

start paying attention to them and start doing something about it.

Let's listen to what happened on April 7. Again that weekend two calls to

work an overtime shift.

She goes on to say - she is a very understanding person - I work full time

and have indicated to my manager that I have no desire to work extra. She is

attempting and this is her understanding of what the manager is under to

staff a busy ICU without adequate resources and must resort to calling nurses

who would go above and beyond to provide patient care. I have great respect for

her and I know she is constantly trying to improve our situation. What is our

government doing regarding this?

Well, I hope to goodness that this government, at the bargaining table, is

listening to the nurses and is going to do something about this.

During our election campaign I am embarrassed reading this stuff, to

think this is going on, and we all know it is going on. Before I go on I want to

mention - she is talking about ICU. Two or three weeks ago, I cannot remember

exactly when, oh, it was the week just before Easter, I had a man come into my

office directly from the Health Sciences where he was supposed to have surgery

that morning and the surgery had to be postponed. The reason it had to be

postponed and he got notice shortly before being brought into the operating

room. He was all prepped and everything and his doctor had to come in and tell

him that the surgery could not happen, and it could not happen because they

could not handle a patient up in ICU. Now, that day it was because the beds were

all full, but we have had other situations where it was because they had

inadequate staff and all the beds could not be used.

This woman is not dreaming, I am not dreaming, the head of the NLMA is not

dreaming nor is the President of the Nurses' Union. There is a major problem

there. When the government is sitting at the table and when the government is

there with the Nurses' Union, it is going to have to remember these kinds of

things and it is going to have to realize that the government has to recognize

the special needs with regard to nurses in this Province today. We do not have

enough nurses to do the work. I know that we are dealing with shortages

everywhere, so what is this government doing about, not just recruiting at the

end when the nurses graduate, but getting more nurses in?

I have been reading the external review that has been done of the Regional

Health Authorities in Manitoba, something that this government does not like me

to talk about. I think it would do all of you a world of good and would really

educate you if you were to read what they are doing over in Manitoba with regard

to the shortage of personnel in the health care system. This external review has

done a wonderful job of pointing out what they are doing well and what can be

done better.

We have to get more imagination going with regard to getting people here

trained, and that is what they are trying to do in Manitoba, looking at

communities and saying: What is lacking in this community and let's really do

an all out search for people who are willing to come into the medical system and

let's train them to work in their own communities and let's pay them well

enough so that they will become trained and will continue to stay and work in

their own communities. It is an amazing study that they have done, and that is

something that I wish this government would do here. It is not wrong to say we

need to have an evaluation done, we need to get help, because we do need to get

help. We are obviously not dealing adequately with this situation.

Now I will go on to say what I was going to say a minute ago. During the

general election the Nurses' Union held a large meeting. They were actually in

meetings and they invited a representative. Well, they invited the three leaders

actually to meet with them. I went and the Leader of the Opposition went and

there was a representative from the Cabinet of government who went. The Leader

of the Progressive Conservatives did not go.

I do not think any of it, for me, was new, but it was very important to sit

there in that meeting with these nurses and to listen to what was really

concerning them. One of the things that I heard loud and clear on that day was,

number one, the overload. We all know that, we all know the over work, we know

what they are dealing with. They said: We want a level of respect at the

bargaining table. We want our voices to be heard. We know what we are talking

about. Why they were so frustrated - and they were frustrated that day was,

they do not think anybody is listening to them, they do not think the government

is listening to them. Government is not recognizing that they have the

expertise.

That meeting became a public meeting. Originally, we were told it was going

to be a private meeting, but the media were outside. Two leaders who were in the

general election were there, so the union decided to let them in. I am glad they

did because now I can talk about one of the things that happened and was picked

up and on the news that night. What it was, was that Debbie Forward got so

frustrated with what was being said from the representative from the party that

had been government that she just got up at the mike and she just talked about

how sick and tired they were of not being listened to, and she got a standing

ovation from the people who were in that room.

I am not dreaming. I am not doing this because I just want to get up here and

sound good and look like I care. I do care and you have to care. We have to make

sure that in the bargaining with these nurses that is going on right now - and

we are not in the room, and I know you cannot speak to it, but you have to

listen to what they are saying. Unless you make a real difference as a

government to what you are going to be offering them, unless you make a real

difference to listening to them, sitting down and planning with them the kind of

things that need to be done in the health care system, then we are going to

continue to lose nurses.

The last thing I would like to refer to is, to again tell you -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I remind the hon. member that her time has expired.

MS MICHAEL: Just one minute, please, Mr. Speaker, by leave?

MR. SPEAKER: Has leave been granted?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you, just one minute.

We are not just talking about those who are in nursing now, and people like

me, and people like the Executive Director of the NLMA. On March 7, I got this

letter from student, and this student talked about how excited she was about the

fact that the Minister of Health had come to their nursing class in October and

he spent an hour discussing nursing recruitment issues. He asked, what would

they like after graduation? What would help them?

She says: Our answers were simple: bursaries during year three and four,

payment for clinical blocks in year three and four, similar to engineering and

business students, adequate pay, mentorship following graduation, quality

workplaces, not expected to work vast amounts of overtime as we see nurses work

in this Province, respect for the work we do.

She wants to stay here, but after having that meeting with the minister,

after reaching out to some of the health authorities in the Province to see

could they help her, this summer, get a job so that she could work this summer,

what she has done is - she will be going to Alberta this summer. She has been

offered work there as a student. They will pay her way in May, and back in

September. Also, if she signs a contract, they will provide her with a bursary

of $3,000.

Members of the government, that is what we have to start doing or else we

will have more letters from young women like this, and from young men, who want

to stay here but cannot. This letter is a sincere letter, just like the e-mails

from this woman are sincere e-mails. You have to listen, and that is what I am

pleading with you today. So, no, I cannot vote for this motion because it says

to me that you are not seeing reality as it is.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for the extension of time.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I appreciate an opportunity to have a few words in regard to the private

member's motion for today. We have, of course, the private member's motion

which started out here today, put forward by the Leader of the Opposition, the

Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair, and the resolution part of that. There

is always a

preamble, and the resolution part of that said, "THEREFORE BE

IT RSOLVED that this House of Assembly calls on the Provincial Government to end

the practice of pattern bargaining when dealing with specialized professions

such as nursing that are faced with critical recruitment and retention

issues."

Now the government, of course, has proposed an amendment to that resolution

piece, saying, take it out, scrap that, and replace it with the following

resolution, "Therefore

be it resolved that this House of Assembly calls on

the Provincial Government to continue to bargain fairly and equitably with

specialized professions, such as nursing, as it does with all of its

employees."

Just for the record, and I want it to be clear, this member, of course, for

example, will definitely be voting against the amendment and consequently I will

also be voting against the amended resolution. I suspect that government, in

some cases, like to call a thing called Division, where, once you do that, they

try to get you to stand up, and you do stand up on Division and cast your vote.

I have no problem or hesitation in casting my vote, either orally or in

Division, if that is the case, on this matter.

I agree, by the way, with the Chair, that the amendment is in order. Whether

the amendment is in order or not is a totally different question, a