MG-8048 Fourth Session - Thi rty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 41 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLII No. 23 • 1 :30 p.m., WEDNESDAY, MARCH 10 , 19 93 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y Thi rty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETI, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEM A, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAV, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDE AU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River Rupertsland PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

893 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, March 10, 19 93 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of JoAnne Swayze, Sherri Woods, Joan Rains and others, requesting the Minister responsible for MPIC (Mr. Cummings) consider implementing no-fault auto insurance, capping insurance commissions and bringing other recommendations of the Kopstein report that the government has delayed acting upon. TABLING OF REPO RTS Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Mr.

Speaker, it is my pleasure to table the Annual Report 1991-92 for Rural Development. It also gives me great pleasure to table the Annual Report of the Conservation Districts of Manitoba. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon 21 adult students from the Business Management Skills Program. They are under the direction of Carolee Batycki. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett).

Also this afternoon from The Maples Collegiate, we have twenty-five Grade 12 students under the direction of Mr. Gordon Boyko. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD PANDA Project Manitoba Employment Status Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, since the beginning of 1993, we have lost over 1,700 jobs in the province of Manitoba.

Every day we are getting bad news of further people losing jobs, and it is working out to about 25 people in Manitoba losing their jobs per day out of a seven-day week. Mr. Speaker, yesterday again, we received the bad news in the confirmation of 80 lost jobs basically being transferred to Montreal and another 60 jobs being lost in the airline industry in Manitoba, it is reported today. We are very concerned about the status of jobs in the transportation industry here in the province of Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the government: What action have they taken on the PANDA Project, a project that contains 48 people working in the province of Manitoba on computerized processing? What action is this government taking to save the jobs in the PANDA Project at Air Canada? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, once again, in terms of the

preamble of the Leader of the Opposition, I would like to point out for him that since August of 1992, there has been a growth of some 12,000 jobs in the province of Manitoba, one of the highest growth rates of all provinces from within Canada. Mr. Speaker, the articles and some of the announcements in the last day or two that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer) refers to, most notably the one of the Diners Club and en Route, and the announcement with Canadian Airlines today, clearly, I think, anybody who is involved in the whole review of the airline industry within Canada recognizes that there are going to be some adjustments and consolidations. The key is that we are always a part of these things, and that we will win more than we will lose. I can assure you that will be the case. It is interesting to note that we do not get a question from the Leader of the Opposition when Unitel announces that they are going to bring 400 jobs to Manitoba.

We do not get a question from the Leader of the Opposition when Canada Post announced that they are going to bring 1 00 jobs to Manitoba. We do not get a question from the Leader of the Opposition when Monsanto

894 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA March 1 o, 1993 announces that they chose Manitoba over 1 00 locations throughout the world. We are in ongoing contact with Air Canada, with Canadian, with the railway companies in Canada, and will continue to do so. •

(1335) Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, perhaps if we were not losing 1,000 jobs in the Manitoba Telephone System with 400 jobs in Unitel, with a 600 job loss, we would be more positive on this side of the House. When we lose 162 jobs in rural Manitoba in rural post offices and then gain 1 00 jobs with a photo opportunity of the Premier (Mr. Rlmon) and the minister in Winnipeg, we still think we are down 62 jobs, and we are still worried about that.

The specific question I raise, as usual, was not answered by the government on the PANDA Project and the 48 people who are trying to find out their fate in terms of their families and their opportunities, high-tech jobs in Manitoba. Gemini Reservation Systems Manitoba Employment Status Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I have a further question to the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey).

Early this year there were hearings from the Competition Bureau dealing with the Gemini application, some 200 high-tech jobs in Manitoba that are serviced by value-added jobs out of Unisys in terms of maintenance of those computers. What action or position did the government take on the Competition Bureau hearings that took place over the last couple of months on Gemini jobs? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Once again, as I indicated, we have been in ongoing contact with the major airlines in Canada, with Air Canada and with Canadian in terms of our concern about retaining those jobs with Gemini here in Manitoba, and we will continue to do that. Once again the Leader of the Opposition in his

preamble talks about the rationalization and the changes that are occurring within industry and business throughout the world. That is the problem with the Leader of the Opposition and the members of his party. They do not recognize that those changes are occurring, will occur anyway, and the kinds of jobs that are being lost or being adjusted that he refers to will be happening anyway because of the need to compete within Canada and throughout the world in the global economy.

So, in the final analysis, the 400 jobs that we get from Unitel, the 1 00 jobs that we get from Canada Post are job growth to our province because those other rationalizations would, in fact, occ ur . That is a problem that they have always had, the lack of the ability to recognize the need for Manitobans, the need for Canadians to compete within Canada and to compete throughout the world, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Doer: The Minister of Rnance (Mr.

Manness) and his other minister of unemployment are happy about the situation where we lose-Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism, excuse me, are happy about losing 100 jobs to Montreal and they say, oh, it is going to happen anyway. It is going to happen because of their step-aside approach to dealing with jobs in Manitoba. You did not answer the question yesterday about the enRoute jobs. You did not answer the first question on PANDA jobs. You did not answer the second question on Gemini jobs.

The Manitoba government has asked for intervener status at the National Transportation hearings scheduled in Calgary on the 22nd of this month. Government Position Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I would ask a very specific question for any minister who could give the people of Manitoba an answer. What is the position of the provincial government on the Gemini situation in Manitoba? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): I indicated to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer) that we continue to work with Air Canada to see that those jobs are in fact retained here in Manitoba, and once again, the kinds of suggestions that the Leader of the Opposition makes-he refers to minister of unemployment-well, there is the tax man in Manitoba sitting across the way who has answered every situation as, tax Manitobans more, tax them continually, increase personal income taxes, increase taxes to business, increase taxes to corporations.

They think they have the answer through short-term, make-work projects, instead of real wealth in Manitoba, long-term growths being established by companies like Unitel, by Canada Post, by Monsanto. Jobs that are here today, they

March 10, 1993 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 895 will be here tomorrow and they will be here 1 0 years from now, unlike the kind of management that we saw under that party when they were in government. Port of Churchill Arctic Bridge Project Status Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, it is obvious that this government does not have a position on those jobs. Dealing with jobs and job opportunities, I want to ask a question of the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger).

The hopes of the residents of Churchill were raised last month with the announcement by this government that they had signed, or had agreed to export 500,000 metric tons of grain to Russia. It now appears that this agreement is in jeopardy. There is a fair amount of confusion out amongst the residents of Churchill and, of course, amongst the residents of this province. Will the Minister of Transportation provide some clarification on the status of this agreement that this government has agreed to with the Russian government?

Will the Port of Churchill export at least 500,000 metric tons of grain through that port this coming shipping season? *

(1340) Hon. James Downey (Minister of Nort hern Affairs): Mr. Speaker, the member refers to an Arctic Bridge agreement that was initiated by this government, under the leadership of our Premier (Mr. Filmon) and our Minister of I, T and T (Mr. Stefanson), when there was a recent visit to what is now the new Russia or part of the old Soviet Union. The agreement that was signed under the Arctic Bridge was to look for enhanced opportunities for the use of the Port of Churchill and the bayline that would transport product to that.

The grain negotiations that took place, or the discussions that took place, were directly between the Murmansk region, which was headed by Mr. Klimov and Mr. Kuramin to discuss with the Canadian Wheat Board a potential wheat sale. That was not the provincial government. That was the jurisdiction from Russia discussing with the Wheat Board a potential grain sale. We certainly would be very supportive of it, and are very supportive of it, but those negotiations, Mr. Speaker, are taking place directly between the Wheat Board and the Russian jurisdiction. Port of Churchill CN Rail Discussions Mr.

Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, now that the National Transportation Act Review Commission has reported, giving the railways the opportunity to abandon rail lines at their discretion, and since the Wheat Board has indicated earlier this year that CN will only be able to move 300,000 metric tons to Churchill, what discussions has this Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger) had with CN regarding the inability of CN to meet the export agreement that was hopefully going to see 500,000 metric tons of grain go to Russia this year? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr.

Speaker, the member raises the issue of the report that was tabled by the National Transportation Act Review Commission yesterday, and then he changes over to the Churchill aspect of it. I do not know which question he wants answered, but I would like to just maybe-{interjection] In 1987, the federal Transportation Act was passed and there was legislative requirement in there to have a review done within five years. A commission was established, did their review last year, and that report was tabled yesterday.

I just want to add that our province, myself, made a submission to that commission, a copy of which I think I tabled last year at that time, a very extensive sub miss ion that we made putting forward Manitoba's position in terms of all modes of transportation for the future. This information is available to all members if they want to have a look at exactly what the position was that we put forward. Mr. Reid: Mr. Speaker, it is obvious that there is no commitment to ship grain through Churchill this season. Government Plan Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): My final supplementary is to the same minister, Mr. Speaker.

Given that the Port of Churchill represents a hundred million dollars per year in annual business for this province with the Northwest Territories, what plans does this government, anybody in this government, Mr. Speaker, have to ensure that that

896 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 1993 business stays in the province of Manitoba and that business is not lost to the St. Lawrence ports? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I think my position, as well as my government's position, has been very clear in terms of our support for the Port of Churchill, in spite of the difficu lty and the disappointing action that has taken place. Mr.

Speaker, I feel very positive, after meeting with the Russian delegation that was out here and the agreement that was signed under the Arctic Bridge concept, plus the statements that they made regarding the negotiations they had with the Wheat Board, I feel that this is the option we need for Churchill, for the guaranteed future of Churchill. If there is going to be a commitment of 500 million tonnes by the Russians, I want to assure you that we will make sure CN delivers that grain through that port. [interjection] *

(1345) Income Security- Financial Assistance GED Examinations Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, they are just going to have to wait until June 5. There has been an attitude displayed, unfortunately, by this government that education is not of value. That attitude is expressed, very vocal terms, by significan t cuts to education K-12 and education at post-secondary levels. It appears that the Minister of Family Services is also prepared to contribute to cuts in education.

Can the Minister of Education tell this House why Income Security is unwilling to provide the fees for a single mother on welfare to write the GED examination? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I would be pleased to clarify that for the Leader of second opposition party. The Department of Family Services does provide support for individuals on social allowances wno want to get back into the workforce, through a variety of programs. The department also supports the GED program, if in fact the recipient comes forward and takes

part in discussions towards a plan of where the GED exams are going to lead them. The GED exams are the general equivalency of Grade 12. Many Manitobans have used that route, if they have been out of school for a number of years, to get Grade 12 equivale ncy to go on to another training program. So if there is another training program in the offing, then the social allowances portion of my department will support the GED exams. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr.

Speaker, then will the minister explain why the branch of Income Security informed my researcher today that they would not pay the $42 for this woman to repeat her GED examination? She failed one course by one point. They will not pay the $42 because, quote: She does not have a consistent comprehensive life plan. Mr. Gllleshamrner: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of discussions that the res earch department of the Liberal Party has had with members of the branch of my department.

I would assure the member that we would see that all individuals who wish to access that would receive fair treatment under the program and the regulations that we have in place. Department of Family Services 19 93 Program Cutbacks Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speake r, we have consistently watched the Department of Family Services cutting back from funding to single -parent welfare recipients. Can the minister tell us if there will be additional cutbacks of those program initiatives for the 1993 year? Hon. Harold Gllleshamrner (Minister of Family Services): Mr.

Speaker, let me correct the Leader of the Liberal Party. The Department of Family Services has seen tremendous increases, not only in the volume of people we have served over the last number of budgets, but also in the amount of funds that we provide to those Manitobans who require the safety net that this department offers. I am hoping that we will get into further discussions of that in our Estimates process which I think is forthcoming in the near future. Community Development Branch Staff Layoffs Mr. Cllf Evans (Interlake): Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Rural Develop ment stated at a staff seminar that the Department of Rural Development is undertaking a new direction and that the department is an important player to help rejuvenate rural Manitoba.

March 1 0, 1993 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 897 My question for the Minister of Rural Development: Can the minister tell this House how the layoff of 19 people in the Community Development branch will affect the vital role that he claims his department is playing in rural Manitoba? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Mr. Speaker, I first of all would like to thank the member for his question. He is the new critic for Rural Development.

First of all, I guess I would have to indicate that yes, his information about my comments at a strategic planning session that was held about a week ago are accurate in that Rural Development does have a key role to play in the revitalization of the economy of rural Manitoba. The Department of Rural Development has done some very creative and innovative things with regard to assisting communities in rural Manitoba become revitalized and to those credits, Mr.

Speaker, I would have to point to programs like the Community Round Tables that we have throughout rural Manitoba where people from within the community are gathering together to develop their strategic plan for their local area. In addition, we have also identified programs like the Rural Economic Development Initiative program and the Grow Bonds program which add significantly to the contribution in economic development in rural Manitoba. *

(1350) Grow Bonds Office-Altona Staff Transfer Mr. Cllf Evans (Interlake): The minister did not as usual answer the question of the 19 jobs that are being cut, Mr. Speaker, and he talks about Grow Bonds. Can this minister confirm that staff within the Grow Bonds program have or will be transferred from Altona to Winnipeg? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Mr. Speaker, I just want to remind the critic for Rural Development that is his first question he has posed and his accusation of not coming forward with the answers is not quite accurate. Mr.

Speaker, with regard to the Grow Bonds program, there are no plans, to my knowledge, of transferring staff from Altona to Winnipeg. We decentralized the staff to Alto na; that is the headquarters of the Grow Bonds office. That is where the office is operating from. There are no plans at this time to relocate those staff to Winnipeg. Mr. Cllf Evans: Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the minister perhaps talk to staff who have indicated that move. Decentralization Government Init iatives Mr. Cllf Evans (Interlake): Mr.

Speaker, this government talks about decentralization initiative, rural rejuvenation and then lays off staff or transfers them away from rural areas where they are mostly needed. I want to ask the minister: With nine of the 19 jobs, layoffs that are leaving rural Manitoba, how will this affect this gov ern men t's future decentralization initiative that he claims that they have? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Mr.

Speaker, this government has a commitment to decentralizing government jobs to rural Manitoba, and I think we have indicated by the number of jobs we have decentralized to rural Manitoba that indeed we are serious about it. We have decentralized something like 700 jobs to rural Manitoba, but when you do a budget process there are adjustments that take place. Just because we have decentralized government jobs to rural Manitoba does not mean that they are immune from the budgetary decisions that have to be made.

Let me indicate that we still have some commitments with regard to the announcement that was made with decentralization; we have something in the order of 1 00 or 120 jobs to decentralize and indeed we are working towards that goal. Dairy Quotas-Am algamation Government Position Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, there is another group of people in rural Manitoba that is concerned about the action of this government. Cream producers have met many concerns about the reduction in their cream quota.

They feel that their livelihoods are being threatened, particularly since they learned that the Milk Marketing Board is taking steps to amalgamate the cream and milk quota. There are 750 cream producers in Manitoba, five creameries which create a lot of revenue. I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture if he supports the steps that the Milk Marketing Board is taking to amalgamate these two quotas.

898 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA March 1 0, 1993 Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, indeed the issue that the member raises is a very serious issue because certainly there are changes occurring in the consumers' preference of what they want to consume. They went from whole milk to 2 percent milk to 1 percent milk to skim milk, which means that the industry needs less cream. The milk producers of this country control the allocation of quota on a national basis, on a provincial basis.

The Milk Marketing Board in Manitoba has gone around Manitoba and had a wide-ranging, wide variety of meetings to talk about the issue and the reality of the marketplace that they are facing, and trying to get people to convert from cream production into milk production. The options have been there for some time and the board has worked hard to get people to convert over to the kind of commodity the consumer wants to buy in this province and in this country. Public Input Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): The minister says diets are changing, purchasing habits are changing.

That may be true, but there is still a great demand for cream and small creameries are not even being able to meet their quota of butterfat that they have for sale. The minister said there has been public input, but the producers say they have not had a chance for input. Will he go back and insist that there be public hearings so that those cream producers, those 750 people who are going to have their income gouged from them, will have a chance for input into this? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): I am very encouraged that the member did acknowledge there is change.

Let me tell the member that change is more dramatic than she even realizes, because there is enough skim off-[interjection] Well, Mr. Speaker, she asked the question, I listened. Would she please give me the courtesy of listening to the answer, because I am giving her the facts that exist in the industry. The milk that is produced in this province by milk producers, there is enough skim off of cream to satisfy the cream demand by and large. The Milk Marketing Board, they have a cream advisory committee. They have sent letters of information to all those producers she mentioned.

They have sent them letters of information. They have also asked them to come to meetings, and the board has had meetings widely spread across this province. These are people elected by the milk producers, cream producers of this province to represent them, and they are doing a very good job of doing that. I am disappointed that member does not agree with that. *

(1355) Manitoba Fanning Community Elimi nation Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, the cream producers are not having an input. Will the minister admit that this is going to get rid of many small farmers and this falls in line exactly with his thinking when he has said many times there are too many farmers in Manitoba and we should not have as many? We are going to lose farmers and this government has no economio- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. Glen Findlay (Minis ter of Agriculture): Mr.

Speaker, ! am really disappointed that member has degenerated to that point that she puts false inform ation on the record -a bsolute false information. I go around this province talking about opportunity, diversification, value added, produce more of higher value and sell it to the consumers around this province and this world. That member was at an Agri-Food Forum in Portage where that is all people talked about. She better wake up to the reality that the farmers are adjusting and regardless of what she wants, to live in the old-think way.

She is in the old-think, she does not want to respond as the producers of this province are responding to what the consumer wants. I wish she would pay attention to what is really going on. Headlng ley Jail Media AttenUon Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Acting Minister of Justice. Yesterday the minister indicated that the abuse of temporary absences was simply to relieve pressure, in response to complaints about relieving pressure at Headingley Jail, by the abuse of temporary absences.

He suggested this was simply the result of a few disgruntled employees who were running to people like myself and members of the media, Mr. Speaker. Interestingly, that view was parroted by the Acting Superintendent at Headingley, Mr. Larry Kroeker,

March 1 0, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 899 who was so concerned about this that on February 8, 1993, he wrote to staff saying: The media's bias often seems to be in favour of conflict. It appears that it is the media's impression that conflict and sensational headlines sell papers. Given this situation, it serves the media to present Headingley in a negative light. On a positive note, remember, the media and the public have a short attention span. Mr.

Speaker, my question for the Acting Minister of Justice: Is this the government's hope, to deflect negative publicity about giving, for instance, a man convicted of domestic assault only six nights in jail out of a 90-day sentence? Is this their hope, that the public has a short attention span? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, as the acting minister, I will take the question as notice, specific to the specific issue he has brought forward, but I do not know now whether the member for St. James is now on the same side of the issue as the Minister of Justice or on the other side.

Let me say that governments everywhere of course like to deflect negative attention. There is nothing new in that type of reaction. I will take the question as notice. Bed Requirements Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, again, for the acting minister: Why is it that in the last two years, Headingley Jail has gone from having a capacity of over 400 to approximately 280 to 290, roughly 127 beds have been cut out in the last two years, approximately one-third? There is no corresponding increa se in rehabilitative services in the community. There is no corresponding decrease in the crime rate.

How is it that we have now only a need for two-thirds of the rate that we had two years ago? What has happened to the people who were otherwise- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, in no way do I accept the facts as presented by the member opposite. He has a long tradition of sometimes missing the mark. Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice for the Minister of Justice. *

(1400) Dormitory Closure Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, finally, for the same minister: Can the minister indicate to the House whether or not currently a further two dorms at Headingley Jail, another 32 beds, dorms 3 and 4 with 16 beds each, are comtemplated being closed? Can the minister indicate to the House when it is anticipated that those dorms are going to be closed? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Again, Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice. Mr.

Speaker, I imagine the Estimates of the Department of Justice will be coming nottoo distant, and the member then will have an answer to that question. Economic Poli cies Government Position Mr. Leonard Evans (B rando n East): Mr. Speaker, in last year's budget statement the Minister of Finance said that Manitoba, and I quote, was ready for recovery. He spoke of new incentives to strengthen economic renewal and job creation in the province. The minister predicted in this document that the employment level would grow by 1 .1 percent, but instead of growing by 1.1 percent it has actually declined by 2 percent.

In fact, we lost 1 0,000 jobs in 1992 alone. He also predicted that the unemployment rate would be 8.7 percent in 1992, but instead it rose to an all-time high, since these surveys have been conducted, to 9.6 percent, the highest it has been since the Great Depression of the Dirty Thirties. Mr. Speaker, will this Minister of Finance now admit that his rosy predictions were wrong, totally wrong, and that his economic policies are not working? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, it may come as some surprise to members opposite, I will not admit that. The member talks about my predictions.

Again I state, for anybody who wants to listen, Mr. Speaker, that my methodology around forecasting is the same as �e inherited from the former government, and that 1s, we take the seven leading forecasting agencies across the country, we take their numbers and we do a simple average and we present that number in our budget. Nothing has changed I believe in this province for the last 1 0 or 15 years.

900 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 1 0, 1993 Mr. Speaker, a year ago, when we brought down the budget, we sensed that there would be national growth in the range of 2.5 to 3 percent. That now has been scaled back for the country as a whole, into the area of 1.5 to 1.75 percent. That was 1992 growth. I say to the members, obviously we are a part of the nation and our numbers accordingly have been reduced in keeping indeed with every other province in the country. Manufacturing Investment 19 92 Decline Mr. Leonard Evans (B randon East): Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Rnance explain why manufacturing investment in 1 992 actually declined by 8.1 percent,

whereas the minister predicted in his budget statement that it would increase by 31.2 percent? There is a long way between a 31.2 percent increase and an 8.1 percent decline. Where is the leadership of the Econo mic Development Board of Cabinet? Can he explain why this is happening? I might add, Mr. Spe aker, in terms of manu facturing, we lost 4, 000 jobs in the manufacturing sector alone in 1992. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, again, the numbers that I presented were simple averages of forecasts that had been presented.

Indeed, in this case that was a Statistics Canada intention number as I recall. Let me say, Mr. Speaker, if the member wants to reflect on '92, this is what happened. Growth in manufacturing capital in 1992 is expected to be over 50 percent up from '91. Again, this is the best growth rate in Canada and compares very favourably to the expected national decline of 4.2 percent. Why does the member not put all the facts on the record? Mr. Leonard Evans: In due course, Mr. Speaker, we will put all the facts on the record. Private Investment Spending Budget Predictions Mr. Leonard Evans (Bra ndon East): Mr.

Speaker, I have an other supplementary question to the Minister of Finance. This government prides itself on stimulating private investment spending. Why did private investment spending in Manitoba in 1992 only increase by one-half of 1 percent and not the 7.4 percent which this minister predicted in his budget? Obviously, this policy of reducing the size of government, cutting spending is not working. In fact, Mr. Speaker, this government is making matters worse. Hon. Clayton Manness {Minis ter of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I missed the mark for the very same reasons I did in the other two areas.

I accepted the forecasts. They were not my own. I accepted the forecasts as brought forward by outside agencies, as is the methodology in place that the department has used for several years-no different than when his colleagues used to bring down the budget for the province of Manitoba. Let me say, Mr. Speaker, though, in case the member has not recognized it, the reason that private investment did not increase at the rate as we had forecast and we hoped would result was that the national recession lasted longer than indeed everybody thought it would.

Of course, that has manifested itself in other ways in a sense of revenue reductions to government that is now causing us great difficulty as we budget towards 1993. Manitoba Intercultural Council Act Repeal Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, on February 4 this year, the Minister responsible for Multiculturalism released the long-awaited Don Blair report whose first and major recommendation is to repeal The Manitoba Intercultural Council Act. Does the minister agree with this recommendation, that The MIC Act be repealed, because and as I quote from Mr.

Blair's report, there is no compelling reason for the MIC to need to be constituted by legislation today? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Speaker, I thank my honourable friend across the way for asking that question. Indeed, we did commission Don Blair to do a report on the status of the Manitoba Intercultural Council and what the future should be. He has recommended, Mr. Speaker, and I agree with the recomme ndation, in fact, that the Manitoba Intercultural Council should now be turned over to the community.

I know that both opposition parties in the House in the past have asked this government to remove perceived political interference in board appointments to the Manitoba Intercultural Council .

March 1 0, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSE MBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 901 I think there was legislation, in fact, that was introduced by the opposition parties and supported by the opposition parties. Mr. Speaker, we are removing any perception of political interference and letting the Manitoba Intercultural Council be completely run by the community. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, it is very interesting that this minister who has politicized this whole process talks about taking it out of political process. Manit oba Intercultural Council Conference Recommendations Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr.

Speaker, will the Minister responsible for Multiculturalism agree that she will follow the recommendations of the biennial MIC conference to be held in mid-April, even if those recommendations say to retain the Manitoba Intercultural Council or has she already drafted legislation that will kill the MIC? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Speaker, there is not any piece of legislation or nonlegislation, in fact, that can prevent a co mmunity organization from operating in any way they see fit to serve the community that they represent.

I welcome the MIC's biennial assembly in April, look forward to hearing their recommendations and look forward to the way they believe the Manitoba Intercultural Council should operate into the future. * (1 410) Bill 16 - The Public Schools Amendment Act Government Justification Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): It is well known that this governm ent has undertaken unprecedented cuts in public education, as has been shown in this House and announced earlier, as well as a massive intrusion into the decision making of school boards that we see through Bill 16. Yesterday, Mr.

Speaker, we were treated to the mind-boggling sight of this minister refusing to answer questions about her bill when it was tabled in the House from myself as critic, a matter which you have taken under consideration. I want to ask the minister today now whether she can justify what she said yesterday in introducing the bill for second reading when she said "the bill is fair and equitable to both school divisions and taxpayers;" when under this government's policy some school divisions, Mr.

Speaker, would have to cut their special levy by significant amounts when others could increase that special levy to homeowners by 8 or 1 0 percent. How is that fair and equitable by this government? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minis ter of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to answer the question. Yesterday, my honourable friend was not really prepared to speak. So I am glad that he has been able to take the opportunity at the briefing offered by my office to acquaint him with my bill so that now he is able to put questions forward. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Point of Order Mr.

Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, as we raised yesterday, on a point of order, I have never seen a minister refuse to answer questions on second reading. We will debate the bill when she answers the questions, which every other minister I have seen in 11 years- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member clearly does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. The honourable Madam Minister, to finish her response. * * * Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Speaker, I did say yesterday, when I had the opportunity to introduce Bill 16, that it is fair and equitable to both school divisions and to taxpayers. It is fairness to taxpayers because it is limiting in the amount of the special levy that is able to be raised. It is fair and equitable to school divisions because it provides the same 2 percent cap on the special requirement, that is the amount of money required for a school year by a school division. It provides the same equitable cap. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Speaker, the minister obviously does not understand this even though she had a briefing this morning for herself. Government Flexibility Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Is the minister prepared to allow some flexibility in this bill, so that it would apply to either the special levy or the special requirement, whichever would yield the most dollars for the school divisions, because some divisions will

902 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 1 0, 1993 be able to increase the special levy by 8 or 1 0 percent? Lakeshore, Seine River and others would have to cut their special levy significantly. How is that fair and equitable? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, it is obvious that it is the honourable member who does not understand the function, and it is the honourable member who does not understand the impact. In fairness to school divisions, the 2 percent cap was placed on the special requirement, that is the dollar amount required.

The special levy, as the member would know if he did take the opportunity to attend the briefing I had arranged for him this morning and he was not able to attend, yields different amounts across different divisions. That, Mr. Speaker, would be unfair. School Board Compliance Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, the minister undertook a little damage control this morning, a little political action to try and recover from yesterday's disaster in this House. Mr. Speaker, since we have not received any answers from this minister, we have not seen any answers in the House in great form by this minister.

Since the minister- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Question, please, now. Mr. Plohman: If the minister wants to intrude on the actions of school boards in this way, is this minister planning to fire school boards that do not comply with her actions and in fact put in place trustees to carry out the wiii- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, in making this announcement we did want to ensure, No. 1, fairness for taxpayers.

We did want to protect the taxpayers, something that the other side has only encouraged us to continue to allow taxes to rise and rise across this province. We made sure that we did put into place a 2 percent cap. In addition, Mr. Speaker, we also made sure that school divisions had in place the tools to deal with their financial situation. We did recommend that school divisions might look at a voluntary workweek reduction and also a reduction in their own administrative costs, not to affect students and the classroom. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Nonpolitical Statements Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, could I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable minister have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? (agreed] Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Speaker, I would like to briefly share with the members a piece of good news. The Consumers' Association of Canada, the Manitoba branch, has recently recei ved the Margaret Speechly Stansfield Memorial Award. This is a $2,000 award which they will use to buy a computer and software to help CAC with its product information service in grocery price surveys.

My department enjoys a long-standing working relationship with CAC. In fact, Margaret Stansfield was the first recipient of Manitoba"s Consumer Education Award of Excellence in 1986. She was an active volunteer in the consumer awareness movement for over 40 years. I am very pleased that the Manitoba branch of the Consumers' Association of Canada has received this award and the support that goes with it. It is a very fitting acknowledgement of their contribution to our community. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

I would like to remind the honourable Madam Minister that nonpolitical statements are reserved for members to make a nonpo litical statement. It appears by the honourable Madam Minister's statement that her department has some involvement. Honourable Madam Minister, just clarify, please. Mrs. Mcintosh: The Manitoba Consumer s' Association is a voluntary nonprofit organization that does volunteer work for the public, shares that informat ion with wide grou ps. We also get information from that group. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable Madam Minister.

It appeared that the honourable minister's department was involved. *** Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, may I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement?

March 10, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 903 Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Speaker, I would like to recognize two exemplary Manitobans this afternoon. They are both going to be representing Manitoba, and indeed all of Canada, at the World Indoor Championships for Track and Field in Toronto this weekend. Their names are Byron Goodwin and Alanna Yakiwchuk. Both of them are athletes from Manitoba who have benefited from years of hard work in coaching.

I think it should be recognized that they have progressed to not only be successful at the national level, but they are both entering the world stage in track and field at this time. I think we should all recognize that, in this day and age, hard work and dedication still pays off, and that they should be commended, as well as the coaches, the trainers, the volunteers that will be going to Toronto with them. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. Darren Praznlk (Deputy Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would like to just make some announcements with respect to committees.

I would like to call the Standing Committee on Economic Development to meet on Thursday, March 18, 19 93, at 10 a.m., to consider the 19 92 Annual Report of Venture Manitoba Tours Ltd. The Standing Committee on Public Accounts will meet on Thursday, March 18 , 19 93, at 10 a.m., to continue to consider Volume 3, 19 91 Public Accounts, Volumes 1, 2 and 3, 19 92 Public Accounts, and the 19 92 Annual Report of the Provincial Auditor.

I would also announce that the Standing Com mittee on Pub lic Utili ties and Natural Resources will meet on Thursday, March 25, 19 93, at 10 a.m., to continue to consider the 19 91 Annual Report of the Workers Compensation Board, and the 19 92 Five Year Operating Plan. Mr. Speaker, I would ask if you could please call for second reading of Bill 15 , The Boxing and Wrestling Commission Act, and then I would ask, Sir, if you could please call for a continuation on debate on second readings the bills as listed on the Order Paper. (Mrs.

Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) SECOND READINGS Blll 15- The Boxing and Wrestling Commission Act Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): I am pleased to move, seconded by the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey), that Bill 15 , The Boxing and Wrestling Commission Act (Loi sur Ia Commission de Ia boxe et de Ia lutte) be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Stefanson: I am pleased to rise to say a few words about this particular act.

The proposed new Boxing and Wrestling Commission Act is aimed at providing more effective regulation of professional boxing and wrestling here in the province of Manitoba. The fundamental objectives are to promote the safety of the contestants and to protect the public interest. I am pleased to report that the proposed legislation was developed after consultations with the boxing and wrestling industry, with the Manitoba Sports Directorate and with the Department of Justice. In addition, similar legisla tion from othe r jurisdictions was carefully reviewed when the new legislation was being developed.

The new act responds to recommendations made by the Provincial Auditor as well. The proposed legislation incorporates changes which are quite substantive. * (1 420) The distinction in the existing act between personal licences and event permits is unclear. The new act clarifies the licensing provisions. It clearly distinguishes between the two types of licences which are issued in practice, that is, personal licences for contestants, promoters and other participants and event permits for specific events.

In support of applications for licences, information including medical information will be required by the commission. Applicants for licences will also be required to provide information to prove their identity, Madam Deputy Speaker. The proposed legislation responds to recommendations made by the Provincial Auditor regarding the posting of security and the levying of

904 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA March 1 0, 1993 fees. Prom oters will be given more flexibilit y regarding the form of security that they provide. The proposed legisla tion will also permit the com mis sion to levy a fla t fee in cer tain circums tances rather than the standard percentage of gate receipts.

Right now the fee relates to a percentage of gate receipts received at an event, a percentage of 3 percent, but in some instances it is more appropriate to levy a flat fee because there are no gate receipts being collected, there is no fee being charged as admissi on,. so to gi ve the comm ission the flexibili ty to charge a flat fee covers off both types of aspects. In the past there have been problems with the enforcement of the ex isting legislation, and in order to address these problems the proposed legis lation provides for si gni ficantly increased crim inal penalties for breaches of the act.

In addition, the proposed legislation provides the comm ission with new powers to discipline holders of licences and event permit s, and also provides for the appointment of inspectors to assist with the enforcement of the act. The proposed legislation, Madam Deput y Speaker, will provide the comm ission with exp anded regulation-making power which will assist it to achieve its overall mandate. The exp anded regulation-making power will enable the comm ission to make regulations respecting professional boxing and wrestling, including licensing and including information to be provided by third parties and

definitions. The ex isting le g islation provi des for the comm ission to regulate the showing of professional boxing and wrestling contests or exhibitions on closed circuittelevision. Technology has advanced to the point that it is no longer practical for the commis sion to regulate closed circuit television. Closed circuit television technology has become outmoded because of the introduction of satellite and television technology. The new act makes no reference to closed circuit television.

So, Madam Deputy Speaker, again, I reiterate for member s of this House that the new propCI.:-ed legislation has been developed after consultation with the boxing and wrestling industry, the Manitoba Sports Directorate and the Department of Justice, and it responds to recommend ations made by the Provincial Auditor.

Madam Deputy Speaker, there was quite lengthy discussion on the whole issue of whether or not wrestling should continue to be a part of this act and after consultation with people in the indu stry, after a review of other ju risdictions, it was deemed that im pact wrestling should definitely continue to be a part of this act. The whole issue of professional wrestling and boxing, the greatest concern, as I have already outlined, is the safety of participants and this act goes a long way to enhancing and ensuring the safety of the participants.

Wrestling and boxing, Madam Deputy Speaker, in the province of Manitoba are very significant for several reasons . Obviously, they provide entertainment to the citizens of Manitoba for those who want to go and participate and view such events. They obviously provide job opportunities for many Manitobans in terms of the hosting of these events and the staging of these events. Wrestling events held in Winnipeg Arena draw signific ant crowds in the many thousands and some of the boxing events that have been held in the province of Manitoba recently, as well, have attracted signi ficant crowds.

As well, both professions, I guess more notably boxing, have also provided some citizens who have brought recognition to the province of Manitoba. In the field of boxing, one Donny Lalonde certainly brought signif icant recognition to the province of Manitoba, not only for his performance and his ability as a professional boxer, but his fight against child abuse, Madam Deputy Speaker. So there are several reasons that this is an indu stry that is important to Manitoba. It is important to the citizens of Manitoba, and it is im portant to the government of Manitoba.

Clearly, it needs to be regulated in a proper and appropriate fashion. It needs to provide safety for the participants, and it needs to ensure protection for the public.

Clearly, we feel that the amendmen ts that have been put forward in this act address those issues, Madam Deputy Speaker, building on the act that was in place, and as I have men tioned, addressing some of the concerns of the auditor, particularly as they relate to the amount of security and the type of security that should be put forward for the hosting of any event and, again, to provide some flexibili ty in terms of the kinds of fees that are charged so that you can charge a fee whether or not there are attendance fees being charged at a particular event or whether or not an event is being held without fees being charged.

So the flexibili ty to charge a

March 10, 1993 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 905 percentage of gate receipts or to charge a flat fee covers that. So, in the final analysis, after ex tensive consultation and discussions with many individuals associated with professional wrestling and boxing, we feel that this act really does provide us with the kinds of parameters that are essential in this indu stry today and therefore I am pleased to commend it to this House. I hope that the House sees fit to su pport the intent of the new Boxing and Wrestling Commis sion Act in an expeditious fashion.

I look forward to hearing the commen ts of other mem bers of the House on this particular piece of legislation, and I thank you for the opportunity to put a few thoughts on the record. Thank you. Mr. Cllf Evans (I nterlake): Madam Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar}, that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 2-The Endangered Species Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading, Bill 2 (The Endangered Species Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les especes en voie de disparition) , standing in the name of the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie). Some Honourable Members: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Stand? Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? [agreed] * (1 430) Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Deputy Speaker, the Labour mi nister ma de reference to 40 minutes. I want to let him know that I recently purchased a watch, and I have set Mickey's big hand and little hand. At about 1 0 mi nutes after three, I should be winding down and concluding my remarks.

Madam Deputy Speaker, this Bill 2 is an amendment to the original bill which was passed by this government back in March of 1990. In fact, the mi nister, in his remar ks in Hansard, points out, and rightly so, that Manitoba is one of three provinces in Canada that has legislation such as this. He goes on to point out that these are mi nor amendmen ts. That is, I su ppose, typical of what a government min ister would say in this regard, because minor amendm ents oftentimes open the door to major changes, and we have to, as the opposition, be vigi lant in that regard.

He goes on to say, in his observations, that the amendmen ts of this bill will require the language to be consistent with the federal and, in fact, international treaties and accords that govern the endangered species worldwide. Madam Deputy Speaker, I believe it was the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale), my colleague on this side of the House, who ma de the observation that as residents of this planet, we are in fact stewards of our environment, and we can be either good stewards or we can be bad stewards of the environment.

I think what we have seen over the last hundred years is a record that one could only indicate is bad stewardship. One only has to look at the record of the eastern Eur opean countries to see that over the last 40 years, they have developed an economy that has paid very little service in the way of any kind of environmen tal protection or controls. What we see are massive pollution problems. Of course, those pollution problems are not lim ited to eastern Eur ope by any stretch. The pollution problems are rampant here in North America in many, many different areas.

What we have seen, finally, and perhaps it is not too late, Madam Deputy Speaker, but what we have seen is a recognition that the pollution problems are su bstantial and that efforts mus t be made to clean up the mess that we have in society right now. Of course, we get into argum ents within all parties as to how serious the problem is, first of all, and how fast we must go to clean up the problems. Last year, I was fortunate enough to listen to a speech by Dr. Suzuki from British Columb ia. He spent considerable time talking about the world time clock.

He was talking about the population growth in this world and, because it is a geometric jump every few years, that we have never seen this ma ny people living in the world. He is saying that within a very short period of time, perhaps as little as 15 or 20 years, the population will again double, and we will have such a pressure on the world that in fact the whole system will collapse. I know that people who make these predictions and make these observations are oftentimes

906 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA March 1 0, 1993 dism issed as wild-eyed radicals and not being in touch with reality and being too environmentally conscious, but I think only time will tell whether in fact those accusations are born out. I do not think any of us want to be in a position at the end of the day 15 or 20 years from now when there is really not much left of the world and the ecology in the world, there will be little satisfaction, we will have little satisfaction in being able to say, or they will, that I told you so 15 years before.

So I think that we do have to wake up collectively as a society and ma ke certain that we do n ot do any further unnecessary damage to our environment and to the species that live there. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, once again the realities of the si tuation and the budg etary constraints and so on of society oftentimes allow us to put off what we should be doing environment ally. We see that in a whole myria d of areas in society where people who live in an area have an economic dependence on a certain type of activity.

It is too expensive or not possible for us to redirect their activity in the short run, so we put up with im pure environm ents in that area because we do not want to put these people out of a job. I say that I am in the middle in this whole area because, while I understand the need for correcting environmen tal problems, I also understand the need for some sort of balance here and that we cannot possibly cause maj or disruptions in our society overnight. We should be doing things lik e phasing out CFCs and taking other mea sures on a kind of a phase-out sort of basis.

I would argue that the acceleration of the phase-out should be perhaps faster than we are doing it, but to 1:>utright ban these practices and so on is hard to do politically because of the dislocations that result. I have always been a rather hopeful person in hoping at the end of the day that what we will find is that people will pull back from the edge before we go over the brink and that the people who are suggesting today that in fact that is where we are headed and that it is inevitable and so on, I hope that they are wrong.

I am sure they hope they are wrong too but, in the final analysis, we will not know until it is too late, and that is a problem. There is some really strong evidence that these people are able to produce, to indicate that in fact we may be headed to the point of no retl.lrn. I draw your attention to the disappearance of literally I belie ve hundreds of thousands of species of plants, animals and so on, insects, around the world, and to the ext reme interest that people have shown in the loss of the rain forests in South America, which are a major, major concern.

I would caution people, those of us in the House here who may be too quick to identify people as radical environm entalists and so on and dismiss what they have to say out of hand, because what they may be 15 or 20 years from now is viewed as quite visionary for their time s. Madam Deputy Speaker, there are many, ma ny ways in which wildlife species are being encroached upon by current society. We saw major oil spills in recent years.

We thought that perhaps the tankers and so on were being bui lt in such a way as to minimize, to a great degree, the oil spills, but what has been proven is that maj or oil spills are occurring around the world. Many oil spills do not get the publicity that the Exxon Valdez did. In fact, I am told that there are hundreds and hundreds of oil spills, some of a more of a mino r natu re, not as major, happening all over the world every day. These, of course, do not get reported as muc h as the big ones do.

Nevertheless, the cum ulative effect of these oil spills has a devastating effect on the species of animals that inhabit that particular area. Another area that we are finding out about little by li ttle, Madam Deputy S peaker, involves the mil itary's basical ly hid ing of waste mat erials, nuclear waste materials and the like, since the Second World War. We are finding, today, horror stories in cases where both the Americ ans and the Russi ans have simply been dum ping at sea barge loads of toxic wastes and so on.

These barrels are sitting at the bottom of bodies of water, and, in fact, by now perhaps many of the records are lost. So there may be mil lions and mi llions of tons ofthis stuff sitting at the bottom of the seas, leaking out into the water and into the water stream s, and we do not know because there are no records left. What we do know is there are many, many examples of records that do exist where these toxic wastes have been literally dump ed in the oceans. What we have found over time is that this practice has been discredited. We cannot say that it is not happening still. We are not absolutely sure.

I do not think anyone in this House knows really what the military is up to in any given country. That is why people, certainly in the opposition, have to be vigilant and suspicious of moves on the part of authorities.

March 10, 1993 LEGI S LATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 907 * (144 0) For example, the AECL in Pinawa, I believe, are interested in digging big holes in the rocks of the Canadian Shield and burying things in there. So they may well have a valid case for doing what they are doing, but we have seen these valid cases made before with very devastating results. We have seen mi litary people do a lot of things over the past without telling people what they were doing.

I think that there is a certain positive situation to have developed whereby critics are keepin g-and that is nonparliam en tary critics as well-a good eye on authorities in this country, such as the mi litary and AECL and government bodies and so on. The wildlife of the country has been encroached upon. As recently as the Gulf War, we had a deliberate move on the part of a government and a military government leader to light the oil wells on fire in Kuwait. What we saw there was massive destruction of the oil wells and also massive destruction and damage caused to the animal life and the fish life in the area.

We will never know how many years it will take, if ever, for the environment to get back to its former pure state. In fact, I do not know that that is possible at any point now because we have done so much damage over the years. Nature is such a delicate environment that once you throw one piece of it out of whack, the thing is out of whack for good. That leads me into the area of the whole question of how we are to deal with the species and animals in society. I guess if I was a farmer, all my chickens would die of old age because I could not bear to kill any animals.

So I am somewhat sym pathetic [interjection] and I will deal with the memb er's statemen ts. I do say that whe neve r I see a truckload of chickens going by on the road, I swear off chicken, and then of course I find myself a month later dropping in at the local McDonald's. It is an incremen tal change that I am going through. I am finding myself, over the years, starting to recognize that I should be eating a little better than I have in the past. These are good signs that we have done, imp lemen ted such things as a drunk drivin g legislation. We have put bans on smoking and so on.

I think that many of us who are sort of part-time smokers, or odd-time smokers, would appreciate a ban in smoking because that would wean us off the habit for good. I think that some of the areas that we are heading in are good. I for one, in many respects, like to be directed by the authorities or by the government for my own good. I know that if I am told that smoking would be banned and so on, and that I could not get to the cigarette supply, then I would be just as happy to quit smoking. Now to deal with my old friend the Minister of Labour's (Mr. Praznik) observations about the mea t eating and so on.

I am saying that I think part of it is an educational process. Obviously, we are not going to ban the eating of meat, but throughout the last 1 0 years, with the educational programs on TV and so on, people are starting to think in terms of eating better. I am getting away slowly but surely from the eating of mea t. I certainly admit to a slight bit of hypocrisy on the subject still at this point, but I am working at it.

The point is, Madam Deputy Speaker, that while I could not kill farm animals, I recognize that there are legitima te concerns and interes ts on the other side of the coin, and there are those who are opposed to absolute total ban on experim entation on animals and so on, and I believe wherever possible we should do that. It has been pointed out, and quite legitimately, that if one does not call a herd of whatever type of animal it is, that it ma y just exp and to the point where it becomes a major problem and, for its own good, it has to be dealt with. So I think there has to be some sort of a balance here.

There has to be some sort of a recognition that in fact in certain cases that there may be situations where we may have to deal with killing animals for certain societal goods. Madam Deputy Speaker, this particular bill that the mi ni ster has in troduced allows the mi ni ster to have some additional authority in dealing with design ated animals so that they can allow some scientific experimen ts. I think that some of us are concerned about how far that could possibly go.

The mi nister in his own commen ts made reference to a sick animal on the endangered species list that he has, and that he was un able to I believe do anything about the situation because he could not allow any kind of scientific experiments. So this change giving him additional authority to dealing with designa ted animals and allowing scientific experim ents perhaps is something that may be necessary. We are concerned that it might

908 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA March 10, 1993 be in terpreted, and one of the other speakers on this bill in fact, Madam Deputy Speaker, ma de reference to the fact that Ducks Unl imited, depending on what the definition of a scientific experiment was, which purports to be an office complex could in fact have itself classified under this bill as an experimen tal location and in fact could engage in scientific experiments.

So we would be very concerned, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the mi ni ster, and I have confidence having known this mini ster for some time, that he has a bit of an independent streak in him and I cannot see him going off in the wrong direction, although perhaps memb ers opposite would have more intima te knowledge and information of where the mi ni ster might be headed if one were to give him too mu ch power.

I say, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the mini ster has a list right now and among them I find some of the, certainly, the Latin pronunciations of their names almost impossible, so I take him at his word that these six categories should be included. But perhaps we should be grantin g the minis ter authority to add a No. 7 category on that list, and that is the Liberal Party of Manit oba as an endangered species. I am told today that Natalie Pollock, a well-known Winnip eg personality, is possibly declaring her intention to run as a leadership hopeful. I would say that would put her first on the list at this point.

She is certainly better known than any of the other Liberal leadership aspirants. So we may find the member for Ink ster (Mr. Lamoureux) as the new House leader for the new leader. Hon. Darren Praznlk (Minister of Labour): But she does not have a seat. Mr. Maloway: Well, the Min ister of Labour (Mr.

Praznik) says she does not have a seat, but I am sure that one of the six or seven Liberals remaining would be willing to give up his or her seat to allow the new leader, should it be Natalie Pollock, to run in a by-election and to lead the Liberal Party on to greater heights than it has ever seen before unr.er the current memb ership. Madam Deputy Speaker, I arn sure there are other species that we could allow the mi nister to include on the endangered species list.

I do not know whether canaries are an endangered species but if they are-1 want to get back to the bill because I do not detect a certain great level of joy on the part of the few Liberals left in the House at the prospect of the aforemen tioned person being the Leader. The ones who are here are certainly getting a little more ani mated than they were before. Madam Deputy Speaker, I do want to say that the member for Burrows (Mr.

Martindale), when he was making his speech on this bill, had an excellent analysis of how the environment and the animals and the species in the environment should coexist. * (1 450) He talked about the two fundamentally different ideas that people have regarding the world and its resources.

He spoke about how one school of thought is that it is people's right to use the resources as they see fit, and perhaps that developed at a time when in fact it could be argued that the resources were infinite, that the population of the world was much, much smaller than it is right now and that one could see almost an unlim ited supply. I could see how, with the population as small as it was maybe a hundred years ago, that people travelling across Canada in a very lim ited way through railways or on horseback could think in terms of an unlimi ted resource.

That idea took hold and was passed down from ge ner ation to gen eration, and it has only been, qu ite frankly, in the last 20 or 30 years in fact that people have recognized that the pollution is in fact catching up with them . The second view according to the member for Burrows is that we should be good stewards of the environment, and regardless of how unlimi ted the resource is, that we should try to conserve it.

In fact, I can relate to you that the former City Councillor Magnus Eliason, whom I think, Madam Deputy Speaker, you know and served with on the council, was in fact into recycling, I remember, 20 years ago. He had his little compost bin in the back of his home at 791 Welli ngton Avenue, and he was saving his cans and doing all these things when in factthe rest of us would think that this was a pretty kooky thing to be doing. We never really thought in terms of doing those things back then, but he was thinking in those terms.

I know that there were many people years ago, perhaps because of economic necessity, who had to ma ke certain that the resources lasted as long as they possibly could and, certainly, with the situation the way it is in the world right now, the view that we

March 1 0, 1993 LE GISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 909 should be good stewards as the me mber for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) pointed out is not an option anymore, that we through government legislation and perhaps vigilant policing are going to actually have to force people to adopt that view that we have to be good stewards of the environment, because in fact if we do not, what we are going to see is our extinction on a long-term basis. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, [interjection] the member for Ink ster is prodding me again.

He is reminding me that I have another 15 mi nutes to go and that I have to speak for 40 min utes. So I am thinking, what can we possibly do here as a group to keep the leadership aspirant, the main leadership contender, the legend in his own mind occupied and entertained for the next 15 minu tes? You know, I have been telling the member for the last little while that there are no delegates in this House . Per haps he think s the member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray) is a potential delegate and supporter of his and perhaps he feels that he has to be here for that purpose.

In actual fact, he is finding himself in a position now where Natalie Pollock is out meeting the delegates and tying up the leadership and jum ping ahead of him in the race while he is here and he is losing the race in fact. Point of Order Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Yes, if the member wants to discuss leadership, tell him to go out and I will discuss it with him. Thank you very much. Mr.

Praznlk: Yes, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is rare that I come to the defence of a member of the New Dem ocratic Party, but I believe he was dealing wit h The Endangered Species Act and was suggesting that it be expanded beyond animals to perhaps other particular issues. Madam Deputy Speaker: I believe there really is no point of order, that it is a dispute over the facts. I would suggest to the honourable member for Elmwood, indeed, that debate on reading of the bills should be relevant to the bill. *** Mr.

Maloway: Madam Deputy Speaker, just before I leave the Liberal Party and get back to the text of the speech here, I know that the member for St. Boniface is a potential leadership aspirant himself. When I told the member for Ink ster the other day that I was firmly behind his bid, the member for St. Boniface took it very personally and was very upset and accused me of backing out on my commitmen ts to him. I did not know I had made any commi tments to him. So there is definitely some confusion here.

In fact, today, with only six or seven mem bers in the entire party, they could not decide who was to ask the first question. It certainly points to some lack of direction and lack of organization in that group over there. Madam Deputy Speaker, the me mb er for Wellington (Ms.

Barrett) in her speech on this bill made reference to Ronald Reagan and his activities as the governor of California and so on as President of the Un ited States and, while he was not well known for being a progressive by any stretch, the fact of the ma tter is that evidently there were measures taken under his leadership as President of the Un ited States which put the Uni ted States ahead of us in terms of protection of endangered species. In fact, the member for Wellington (Ms.

Barrett} made reference to the redwoods of California and how the people of California have begun to recognize-while they did not recognize 20 years ago that there was a serious problem with loggers and logging of the redwoods, they came to grips with that problem in California, and they made rules and so on to protect what little is left of the species there. We are seeing that in British Columbia right now, Madam Deputy Speaker, with the strip mining that is going on there, with the logging that is going on.

People have hadtoresorttoveryex treme me asures to try to force the government to wake up and face the problems of having to sacrifice economic development. It is a very hard thing to do, because our constituents want jobs. We have a very high unem ployment rate, and we want to mak e sure our constituents are em ployed.

So it is a very difficult thing to do, to be put in a position to say that we are not going to allow a mine to open in a jurisdiction and provide all those jobs because we want to keep a wil derness park or we want to kee p the environment pristine. * (1 500) Madam Deputy Speaker, we are going to have to not succumb to those demands. We are going to have to take steps, arbitrary in some instances, and suffer the economic penalties and simply pull back and allow the parks and so on to be protected. The logging and the loggers will have to look elsewhere for their products.

910 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 1 0, 1993 As a matter of fact, there is a very interestin g development over the last few years when we see the recycling of newspapers, how the market now for pure, I believe it is bleached, paper and so on is drying up rather fast and people are, as a matter of practice, demanding recycled paper. In fact, they cannot keep up with the demand. I believe the recycling of newsprint and so on is because most of the newsprint is used up in the Uni ted States.

To be able to recycle it back into our paper, we would have to truck the stuff back up, the newspapers back up from the Uni ted States to put into our recycling bins. Clearly, there has to be an economic incentive, I believe, in the long term, for recyding to work. As long as there is a-you notice when we put a deposit on cans. If the deposit is high enough on cans-1 remember the former member for Ellice, Harvey Smith, who was elected back in 1986 and served here for a couple of years-{interjection] and, I believe, served with you on council. He introduced a bill for deposit on cans.

The thinking behind it, and it certainly works in other jurisdictions, is that the higher the deposit on cans and so on, the more people are going to collect the bottles, collect the cans, bring them in for a deposit, and the less incli ned they will be to throw the cans away and destroy the environment. Madam Deputy Speaker, we have all seen situations, I am sure, on the lake s when you are out boating on the lake where people have thrown cans into the water, old cans and so on.

It is absolutely a disgusting situation to be walking along a beach and find that you cannot walk around in bare feet because you are being cut on pieces of glass and bottles and so on that are around. So we have a major, ma jor me ss on our hands that has to be cleaned up, and it will take time to do it.

Of course, it is incumbent upon the government to try to work out ways and means to make it both legislatively required that people take care of the environment but also economically advantageous for people to do it, because when people are faced with the problem of having to pay exces!-1ve amounts of money because of pollution they are causing and because of problems they are causing, then and only then will they take the effort to walk the extra mile and pick up the mess. We have also seen on the riverbanks, Madam Deputy Speaker-in fact, people will know that the riverbanks are quite filled.

Well, the Minis ter of Government Services and Seni ors (Mr. Ducharme) is making gestures. You know, I am still waiting for his response from last week on his tendering out of the auditing for the government fleet vehicles. He promised it the next day, this quick mi nister. Here we are a week later, and we are hearing nothing from him . It is members lik e the member for Riel (Mr. Ducharme) whom I have known for some time-1 certainly would suggest to you that he more than likely is a careful sort of individual who would in fact pick up. He has got a cottage at the beach and so on.

I am sure that he does not throw cans and bottles and stuff like that around, but we have to collectively teach our young people to be able to do that. I do not know how much time I have left here, but according to my watch-the governmen t, in introducing this bill-! tell you that we look at the Order Paper and we see very few bills, and I do not know what is wrong with the government.

I think perhaps it is a lack of planning or they are tied up in the Estimates process to such an extent that they really cannot come up with much in the way of legislation, but we have seen this now over the last two or three years, and they have been the government in this province now for nearly five years. What we have seen is very, very lim ited amount of legis lative in itiatives on the part of the government. I am not sure why that is. I mean, they just perhaps do not believe in interven tionist type of government.

I mean that is typical of Conservative governme nts all over the place that they are not very in terventionist by nature. This one has acted a little bit differently from some of the other governments, and perhaps that is why it is still kind of holding on after all this time. The whole thing has not come ungl ued yet. You know, normally by a year or two in office the whole thing starts falling apart. We are seeing signs of that now, but so far they have held together a little bit. I think part of that-well , I will deal with him, the member for Selkirk (Mr.

Dewar)--l will deal with the other member in a couple of minu tes. Hon. James Downey (Mnlster of Energy and Mines): Who is this speech helping, Jim ? Is this helping you get something off your chest, or what is it?

March 1 0, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 911 Mr. Maloway: The Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) who is one heartbeat away from the premiership of this province is starting to chirp from his seat, and the fact of the matter is that member knows that there is very little in the way of legislative ini tiatives on the part of this government. There are no more than 1 0 bills on the whole agenda. [interjection] There are largely bil ls-the Minis ter of Labour (Mr.

Praznik ) is also saying things from his seat, but he should be the first to admit that what we see here, the 1 0 bills before the House right now, is really very thin as to what they are really doing. An Honourable Member: People are relieved that it is a thin agenda. Mr. Maloway: He says the people are relieved that it is a thin agenda so perhaps their polling machine has determined that perhaps the people do not want- An Honourable Member: They worry less from us on this side than they did with you. Mr.

Maloway: The member has some reason to believe that the public wants 1 0 rather thin bills before the House, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have no objection to the minis ter bringing in his so-called mi nor changes to The Endangered Species Act. It is an imp ortant issue and so on, but there are certainly a lot of other issues out there that need to be dealt with, and for the government to be essentially holding off-[interjection] The Min ister of Labour (Mr. Praznik) refers to The Cemeteries Act. Well, you know that is about the speed at which this government has been travelling, and it is headed back into it.

I mean what we have seen is very, very lim ited legislative ini tiatives by this government, and lik e I said, maybe its polling should indicate that this is what it should be doing. With those very few comme nts-and I know that I am running out of time. I would make some more commen ts about the Liberals, but I think that perhaps I could leave it to other speakers to rile them up a little bit and get a response from them. Anyway, thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I look forward to coming back tomorrow perhaps, as early as tomorrow, and dealing with Bill, I think it is 3, the next bill on the agenda. Thank you.

Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Madam Deputy Speaker, I am pleased to rise to speak on Bill 2, dealing with endangered species. I am surprised that there is no one else speaking. I will start off with just some gener al comm ents in relation to this bill. You know, it is interesting that this is such a thin bill. There is so much work to be done in terms of protection of endangered species and their habitat that I think one of the first things that must be stated is that these, as the minis ter has said, min or amen dmen ts to The Endangered Species Act, are of concern because if they are going to open

an act, they could really do something positive. They could strengthen a lot of the protection for endangered species and their habitat, lik e so many groups and organizations have been asking them to do. The government has signed on to the 12 percent campaign sponsored locally by the Naturalists Society. I think it is common knowledge that they received a failing grade by that organization, by the Endangered Spaces Campaign, in terms of moving forward and im plementing the necessary protection measures so that we will in deed have 12 percent of all the different ecosystems protected in Man itoba.

I think it is difficult for people to understand still. I was re min ded of this last year, when the government in troduced Bill 38 which changed The Wildlife Act, which I will get to in a minute. Even then, it became evident that certain memb ers of this House still do not un derstand that if you want to protect endangered species, you must protect their habitat. • (1 510 ) There is no point in having protection of owls and foxes and various different kinds of wildlife.

If you are going to cut down the trees and mow down all the natural mea dow and wetlands, you are not going to have very much success in protecting the wild animals that this kind of legis lation refers to. I think that this is an im portant point to keep in mind, that we cannot separate out endangered species from endangered spaces. The two, as we are being reminded, are in terwoven. It is in teresting that the member for El mwood (Mr.

Maloway) would talk about the Liberal Party as an endangered species in Manitoba because, with the research that I have the chance to do- An Honourable Member: You're the endangered species. Ms. Cerllll: I would suggest to the memb er for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) that all of us are endangered

912 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 1 0, 1993 species, not because we are politicians and probably the least favoured profession currently in Canada, thanks to the federal Tories I would think, but I think that because we are on a collision course in terms of ecological disaster that people generally, including all wild animals, are endangered species. I just want to make some commen ts about that, because I remember a couple of days ago I read in the House-it was In ternational Women's Day-a state men t from an in ternatic>nal coali tion of scientists.

There were 99 Nobel prize winner s in that coalition, and they predicted with a lot of research to back it up that we only have a couple of decades to avert disaster.

We have to realize that the air quality, the water quality and the soil quality that we depend on to grow our food and to have the oxygen we need to breathe are all being jeopardized because of the effects of indus trializ ation and the kind of scien tific and technical-some would say progress-that we have had very rapidly over the last few centuries and that we have lost touch with the natural environment and we have lost touch with un derstanding that we are in fact dependent on the strength of the connections in the ecosystem, that we are dependent on all of the various ecosystems being main tained for our livelihood and for our continuation as a species.

It is common to hear young children talk about this, because I think that the gener ation coming up that are now going through school are far and away more knowledgeable about the endangered planet that we live on. They will be quick. to talk about how every time an endangered speciets goes on the list as an en dangere d species, every time an endangered species becomes extinct, that brings our own extinction that much closer.

A number of people across the House will say that I am just full of gloom and doom, and I think they called me part of a soap opera the other day when I was talking about child abuse and violence against children and street youth, but I take very seriously the threat, and perhaps those of us who have a chance to pay more attention to environment R.1d natural resources issues do that because we have a chance to get more information.

I think that one of the problems with this government is that they have been so incredibly controlling of information that we want to get out to the public so that they can be em powered to act, so that they can be em powered to protect their water source that is providing water for them and their family and their livestock or their garden.

As well, the same thing goes for protecting soil and protecting the air quality in the region where they have to live and breathe, and I get quite concerned with the jokes that are made by the mem bers opposite when we try to raise issues of difficult decisions that need to be made so that we can somehow negotiate a course so that we are not going to have even greater unem ployment as we try to do the things that are necessary to curtail the overconsumption of resources that is going on in our world and in our local commu nity.

The Conservative governmen t does not seem to un der stand that principles of sus tainable developm ent mean that you deal with that overconsumption, and that is why things lik e the NAFT A, the North American Free Trade Agreement, are so dangerous, because they are further going to tie us into the North Amer ican economy, the U.S. economy, and they are going to force more overconsumption of resources.

That agreement is going to mean that we no longer have the sovereignty over developing legislation so that we can say in this region we have to reduce the number of trees that are cut or the amount of ore that is mined or the amount of fish that is caught. When we lose that sovereignty over Canadian resources because we have signed an agreement that says that we have to provide resources to the U.S. at the previous year's rate, we are asking for a lot of trouble. That is the kind of problem that is forcing endanger ed species and reducing the habitat that they have to depend on to survive. If the memb er for St.

Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) cannot un derstand the relationship between NAFTA- Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): I have no problem un derstanding your relationship, Marianne. The problem is un derstanding you, you and your NDP philosophy. Stop teaching us about Marxist -Leninis t. Go back to your commun ist country. Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Ms. Cerllll: I would suggest that the member for St. Norbert would begin to understand the relationship between trade, overconsumption and destruction of the environment, and it is really not that difficult. �n te�ection] Oh, a couple of years ago when I

March 10, 1993 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 913 became the Environment critic, that is when I really began to un derstand the threat to our health because of the elimin ation of- Mr. Laurendeau: What did the NDP do about it when they were government, Marianne? Ms. Cerllll: Well, the kind of economic policies that reduce species on the planet- Mr. Laurendeau: You do not talk about Manfor during the NDP era. Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Ms. Cerllll: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

The kind of economic policies that have been practised by this government and by the federal government which are negligen t of providing the kind of protection for wilderness by encouraging busi ness to be able to pollute and not have to provide the proper scrubbers, the proper emission controls, even taxes, so that they will pay the costs that they are requiring by the dema nd they are putting on the environment. Those are the kinds of policies that we need to have that are part of an endangered spaces or an endangered species commitment.

It is not going to just come from some little act with a few word changes. As I said awhile ago, we do not have that much time. If we really care about having the kind of world that we have enjoyed for our grandchildren, then we have to start acting now. I would suggest that if the Minis ter of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) was really in te rested in change to protect endangered species, this legislation would have been far more su bstantial. I am quite concerned that now we are only talking about indigenous species to Manitoba and not gener ally any species that happens to now live and thrive in Manitoba.

With the kind of me gaproject development that goes on now in Canada, with the kind of forced mi gration and movement of things like deer, bears, wolves, birds that require wetlands, with the kind of encroachment on their habitat that is forced by development, I do not think it is wise to chop the country up into fictitious, in environme ntal and ecological terms, political boundaries, Madam Deputy Speaker. Not only do animals not vote, they do not pay attention to our political boundaries, so they do not know if they are in Ontario or in Manitoba.

All they are doing is moving so that they might have clean air and some other food supply. I think to start limi ting, in an artificial way, what kind of a region is going to define them as endangered or not is a problem. * (1 520) So those are some of the kinds of concerns that I think will be expressed when this bill goes to public hearings. The

definitions that are being encouraged by scientists and by those who are spending a large amount of their time and energy as advocates for a safe environment in ecology, the kind of

definitions that these people are putting forward are paying attention to the connections in the ecosystem, and they are starting to give more broad

definitions, not narrowing the

definitions as this piece of legis lation is doing. We need to start realizing that we are part of the ecosystem , that we are not su perior in the sense-we may be more intelligent, sometimes I wonder-[interjection] Well, that was a nice comment from the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry). Thank you very much. The point I am making is that as the

definitions are narrowed, we are ignoring that we are part of the ecosystem and we are not superior. We are dependent on wild animals. We are dependent on the sur vival of wild ecosystems. I am really concerned about a trend that is happening. It has to do with scientific applications to agriculture and genetic engineering. I am concerned that we are so dramatically changing domestic livestock and farm products, crops, and at the same time we are elimi na ting the na tu ral habit at and we are elimin ating the natural wild species, that we are setting ourselves up to elimi nate our own food supply.

What I have been learning about the way that we are changing a lot of the domestic livestock that we rely on for food is that when we move, for example, to develop a type of wheat, durum wheat, which used to have 26 chromosomes and now has 13 chromosomes so that it is rust and pest resistant, that has changed the biochemistry of wheat, and it is making it more difficult for our body to digest it. What that is meaning is we are actually having to spend more calories to digest food. What happens is we then ingest more food to meet those calories.

If that food is also high in fat, more of those calories are stored in our body. This may be a bit of a biochem istry lesson for some of the member s opposite, but what I am saying is our food is

914 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA March 1 0, 1993 becoming less nutritious; the food that is being genetically engin eered is lacking in enzymes. It is the same thing that is happening to the soil, where the soil is being depleted due to the amount of nitrogen and ammonia from chemic al use, and it is affecting the enzyme content. That, in turn, is affecting the enzymes that are in the food that is grown in the soil. Those enzymes are so vital. Even though they are only trace quantities in our bodily systems, they are vital to our being able to digest properly food that we eat.

It is related to something else I learned from a chemist I met with recently, when we were talking about how our bodily systems are changing. What is happening is more and mora of the oxygen we take in is having to be used to digest our food, our liver function, and what is happening is less and less of that oxygen is available tor our respiratory function. We all know that we need oxygen to breathe, and some would think that this may be related to the inc rease in respiratory problems like asthma. An Honourable Member: Ozone. Ms. Cerllll: Ozone is a good point raised by the member for Niakwa (Mr.

Reimer), plus the fact that radiation, methane gas are affecting the ener gy syste ms that we have. What is happening is because the air quality is also decreasing and there are more chem icals in the air, not only is our body requiring more oxygen to meet its bodily functions, but there is less oxyg.;:n available in the air This could also be related to why there is such an in crease in cancer and other immune deficiency illnesses which are becoming called the illn esses of the 21 st Century. By that, I mean things like AIDS, things like allergies, bronchitis, those kinds of things.

When you talk about AID S, it is quite frightening to start to learn how some of the viruses that we are being exposed to have possibly been mu tated by the kinds of chemi< �als that are being dispersed into the environment. It is in teresting to put this in to context of endangered species because as people I hope ',hat we all realize that we are still evolving. It is im portant to recognize that, just as has happened throughout all of our existence on the planet, our evolution is going to be determined by the state of our environment. Is there enough food? How do we have access to the food?

What is the air quality? What is the water quality? All these things are having an effect, and that process that I just described of how oxygen is being more used in bodily functions, such as detoxing the air that we breathe and detoxing the food that we eat, are causing us to possibly develop a larger liver, because that is one of the organs that deals with toxins. When I was younger, I used to eat a lot of beef liver.

I stopped eating beef liver a while ago, but now I have really stopped eating beef liver because I think that studies are showing that a lot of the livestock that we draw liver from is also having to process and oxidize more chemical in the feed that they are given.

I am concerned that there are more and more dioxins and toxins in the meat that we eat, and we can look at the way, as I get back to this theme I was just talking about in terms of genetic engineering and domestic anima ls, these animals are mo re and mor e reliant on artificially man ufactured feed and they are no longer fed whole grains and natural food and that, in turn, is inge sted by us when we eat them . These are some of the more scientific reasons why people are vegetarian.

I, myself, am not a vegetarian, but I have tried to watch the kind of red meat in particular that I ingest because of the large quantities of antibi otics and artificial feed that they are often fed and how that, in turn, can lodge itself in our body and in the fat tissue in our body. I have to come back to talking a little bit about this governme nt's record on dealing with wildlife issues. I am glad to hear that memb ers opposite are remembering some of the things I am saying. That is good.

I would ques tion how this piece of legislation fits in with the legislation on wildlife that the government brought in a few sessions ago when they changed the wildlife management areas to allow development in those wildlife management areas.

I would suggest that now that they have fulfilled their objective by building the office complex in the Oak Hammock Marsh, they would do a favour to endangered species by going back to having development prohibited in wildlife management areas, that if they are real ly in te rested in endangered species protection, they would have areas like wildlife management areas prohibiting development, that it is quite em barrassing for � number of people in Manitoba that we now have a wildlife act because of a couple of mini sters' desire to have a conference cen tre in a wil dlif e management area, that we now have a wildlife act

March 1 0, 1993 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 915 that means you can put any kind of indus try and development in a wildlife management area. * (1 530) The other area where this province is sorely lacking in protection of endangered species is in having bir d sanc tuaries, recognized bird sanctuari es. This province has no high level established bird sanctuaries, and there are a number of birds that are threatened in our province. Again, if they were really serious in doing something about protecting endanger ed species, we would have a higher number and quality of bird sanctuaries in Manitoba.

This is one of the things I wanted to take a look at, because this has to do specifically with this government's record on endangered species. The government in Manitoba has made disappointing progress, says the World Wildlife Front on its commitmen t to save a representative sample of the province's natural regions by the year 2000.

According to the national report on the status of wilderness protection efforts in Canada issued today by the World Wildl ife Fund, the 19 92 endangered spaces progress report which was released simul taneously in Winnipeg as well as in Ottawa at a news conference notes that Manitoba, along with mo st other senior Canadian governments, mus t pick up its pace of wilderness protection efforts if Canada's rich natural diversity is to be preserved.

The mem bers should take note that it is not just me, the little member for Radisson, saying this, that this is coming from world-renowned scientists, from world-recognized environment organizations, and this goes way beyond any local activist. This is the World Wildlife Fund. To date only one-quarter of the country's natural regions have been represented with the protective areas. Mani toba was awarded a D-grade by the Endangered Spaces report, the grade which ranges from high of an A-minus for the federal governmen t in terrestrial areas only and PEl with a low of a D-minus.

Only one of the provinces 12 natural regions has been represented in the protected area. The government is getting a me ssage loud and clear that they are failing to realize that they have to look both at endangered spaces and endangered species together. This legislation seems to move toward that a little bit. I was reading here earlier, I do believe, where-if I can find it. [interjection] Yes, I will take my time. There was a reference that recognized that flora and fauna must be in cluded in a definition of endangered species, and that is the im portant point I was trying to make.

The other thing I want to comment on before I move on a little bit is that there is an incredible amount of paper that is gener ated. The government spends a lot of money on green and purple booklets, on recycled fibre like this. Unfortunately in these kinds of booklets it is often the only place where they are using that kind of paper, and they are not pushing forward to make sure that that is in every copier machine in the Civil Service. I am concerned that when it comes to campaigns lik e the Endangered Spaces Campaign, what this government is really inter ested in is purely public relations.

I know that, for exam ple, the Su stainable Development round table, I think, received some $400,000 sim ply for the contract to develop its material, and when the election comes around, people I think are going to see through a lot of nice purple and green booklets. They are going to be looking for the kind of changes in legislation, in government programs, the in crease in staffing , the in crease in money to research and development. That would mean that this government has some real intention to do something about the fact that so many wild animals and habitats are threatened in Man itoba.

Recycled paper just is not good enough in purple and green booklets. I have another interesting

article here, and it is an

article that was in the October 10 , 19 92, Free Press: Manitoba endangers its natural spaces.. It talks about the- An Honourable Member: Who wrote it? Ms. Cerllll: It was written by Mr. Werier. It talks about the fact that the province received a D rating from the World Wildlife Fund on meeting its commitment to protect wildlife. One of the criticisms is that there is no criteria for identifying areas to be preserved. One of the other problems is that the staff who would do this kind of work have been elimin ated from the Civil Service.

We have a real shortage of paid expertise in this province to do the kind of research that is so painstaking and time consumin g that is necessary to track animals to

916 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 10, 1993 monitor their mi gratory and feeding routes and to ma ke sure that those areas are going to be protected and that those animals are going to be then protected. There is also very little data on the flora and fauna of Manitoba. In order to identify fc:>r preservation we have to know what we have. That is a point that is made over and over again. We are working in a deficit in Manitoba in terms of research. We do not eve n know, for example, in the Hudson's Bay wate rshed area what it is that we could be contaminating and destroying.

One of the things that we are always asking for from this side of the House is that we start having basin-wide reviews when we are looking at water diversions or hydro dams. That just means that we can start to unde rstand what it is that we are doing to our natural environment, because as we put in more dioxins and dam rivers, changing their flow, what we are doing is we are elim inating the mic ro-organisms that are relied on by the fish to eat. Then you elimi nate the fish, and then you elim in ate the whales, and then you affect the people who also rely on those animals.

It is that linking and understanding of the linking that supports what I was saying t3arlier about how every time a species goes on the Elndangered list or becomes extinc t, we are one step closer to our own perilous exti nction. I wanted to look at, a little bit, some of the recomme ndations from our party task force on Environment and Natural Resources. It deals with a number of areas. It tries to frame our approach to natural resource management in some kind of basic philosophy of ecology. That is really im portant, because that has not yet happened. I would agree that has not happened yet anywhere in Canada.

Let me see which one I should s'elect to talk about here. I will try this one. The Province of Manitoba should su pport, in co-operation with native Manitobans, a thorough study of the dynamics of the human population that depends on wildlife, their consum ption and use of various species in relation to population size and characteristics in these wildlife species.

The object of ensuring rational optimal sustained yield is advocated by other points in the wildlife philosophy. • (1 540) This raises the imp ortant issue of allowing for the traditional trapping and hunting in the North and in areas that have been shown to- An Honourable Member: You cannot have it both ways. Ms. Cerllll: The member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer) says that you cannot have it both ways. These are the kinds of issues that we have to negotiate with. It is not an either /or thing. Aboriginal people for thousands of years in this part of the world had harmonious exis tence with the natural environment.

It is only because of the kind of economy of the Eur opean influence that that has been disrupted. It is im portant to realize that there is no reason why there still cannot be the ability in Manitoba to su pport the hunting and trapping of wildlife for sustenance of aboriginal people. Those are the kinds of issues, I think, that it is going to take a government to deal with that has some courage and has the ability to bring together the various sectors of our province, and that is the kind of approach that is necessary. I do not think that is the approach that this government has been taking.

From what I hear, when I talk to various bands-1 just got another letter from a band that is concerned that there is a development going in that is going to put more ammonia into the river that they rely on for fishing, and they do not even have in formation given to them about how to parti ci pate in the environmen tal assessment procedure. That goes back to what I was saying earlier. If this government is inter ested in protecting endanger ed species, then they would be inter es ted in su pporting the individuals in our province that are going to do that work.

They would be mo re forthcoming with information, with the procedural information, with the factual and research information that would help people intervene in an environm ental assessment, so that they could help protect wildlife and habitat in our province. Over and over again, we are reminded because of various reports in the news from other parts of the world that Canada is somewhat fortunate.

We have only had large-scale indus trial development in this part of the world for a relatively short period of time, but it is qu ite appalling to me how quickly we have destroyed so many areas in our part of the world as compared to other parts of the world that have had

March 1 0, 1993 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 917 large population industrial development for a lot longer than we have. I do not think that this is something that we should be proud of. I do not believe that this is something that can be, oh, jus t another cost of being competitive.

If being competitive means that we sacrifice wildlife, if it means that we sacrifice the integrity of natural ecosystems, then I think that we better look for some new principles and a new approach to dealing with the economy, because there are not too many more gener ations that are going to be able to be competitive in that kind of a fashion. So when this government talks about how a deficit or a debt in a provincial government is mortgaging the future of gener ations of the province, I would disagree.

I would say the kind of economic policy that encourages ram pant com petiti on, that en courages un check ed development, that encourages the kind of excess and overconsump­ tion that their policies are encouraging, that that is the kind of problem that is mortgaging the future generations of our province. I think that is the kind of senti ment that I will leave in closing, that we just do not have the right to endanger species of wildlife. We do not have the right to elimin ate those species and the habitat for the generations that are going to come after us. Thank you very much.

Bill 3- The 011 and Gas and Consequential Amendments Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 3 (The Oil and Gas and Consequential Amendm ents Act; Loi concernant le petrole et le gaz na tu rei et apportant des modifications correlatives a d'autres lois) standing in the name of the honourable member for Elmw ood (Mr. Maloway). An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Stand?

Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? [agreed] Bill 5- The Northern Affairs Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 5 (The Northern Affairs Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les affaires du Nord) standing in the name of the honourable member for In terlake (Mr. Clif Evan s). Mr. Cllf Evans (Interlake): Well, I guess with that greeting, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will make my commen ts brief and hopefully kind, not like my colleague the member for Elmw ood (Mr. Maloway). I will certainly refrain from taking any further shots at the Liberal Party over here. I mean, I feel we are dealing with an issue. Regardless of the rank and file and belief of the Liberal Party, we can stay within the lim its of the bill.

I would like to ma ke some comm ents on Bill 5, perhaps not just comm ents on the bill itself or the amendmen ts to the bill, but I feel there are some other issues that this government and the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) could undertake to fur ther pursue the nee ds of the norther n communi ties within this province, their needs that may relate to the road conditions, to the housing, to their access for services. Northern commun ities, I am sure we are all aware, are certainly not like the communi ties in central and southern Manitoba.

The fact is that they need an im provement in their living conditions.

I think that it would be the responsibili ty of any government, particularly the government in place now and the mini ster responsible, to see just how the living conditions and how the communities in northern Man itoba and rural Mani toba can be improved, can exp and to a point that people in those commu nit ies are able to exis t, perhaps not as well as us in central and southern Manitoba, but to a level that is acceptable to the young people and to the people who live in the commu nities, im prove their economic base, impr ove their educational base, impr ove their access base.

Madam Deputy Speaker, northern commu nities, and I feel that roads-1 know other memb ers have made comm ents about the road conditions and how they relate to the northern commu nities.

I may not have in my constituency some of the commu nit ies that previous mem bers have discussed in their debate on Bill S, but I have had the opportunity to go with our northern mem bers on tours and that and see first-hand some of the conditions of the roads, of the housing, of the living conditions that do exist in northern Manitoba. • (1 550) Within my constituency, roads, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the northernmost commu nities, are in need. The conditions of some of the roads that I have travelled on, you could not travel with a

918 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA March 1 0, 1993 Bombardier on it; you could not travel with a two-wheeled bicycle. The conditions of the roads are absolutely atrocious.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the housing that I have seen in my commun ities and other northern commu nities are ones that, I think -this mi ni ster and this government should expand The Northern Affairs Act to be able to allow for these northern com muni ties to have the access to better themselves, not just patch up, patch here, patch there, a bill, amend here and change the wording here, change the wording there, but expand so that the people and the people responsible within the commu nities, the councils and the com mu nity leaders can access, can have some direction that they can take to be able to exp and their level of living, expand the fact that there is a need.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I will make a few commen ts on the bill itself, and as always, you sort of wonder when the mi nister, whether it be the Northern Affairs mi nister (Mr. Downey), whether it be the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), always says that we would like to present these few min or changes, minor changes to amend, to do this or do that. I thi nk this governm ent and the min isters opposite, when they are going to ma ke amendmen ts to any bill, should look further than changin g a little bit of language, changing a sentence here and a sentence there and providing words for people to dwell on.

Some of the bills that we have had presented before us here are so minu scule to the fact that they are not really dealing with the whole realm of the problem. The problem is that there is a great need out there and a great need in northern Manitoba, a great need in rural Manitoba, and is this government doing its fair share of participating with the northern commu nities and rural commu nities to get these northern communi ties moving and giving them the access to allow them , to assist them, in promoting the future of economic development, the future of better roads, the future of access to services.

They keep dealing with one little problem here this t.me, another little problem next time, another problem here, another problem there-patchwork-instead of dealing with the issues and working for a whole, changing the act so that commu nities would be able to do more than just patchwork within their area. I feel that is the way to go, but it seems like this government and this mi nister want to just patch things up and just keep things moving along so that there would be something else to do for them in the next session, or wait ins tead of dealing with it when the time is there to deal with it.

Certain comme nts, Madam Deputy Speaker, from the act that seem to show that the mi ni ster is thinking on the fact that, well, perhaps there is a lot of extra work for the communities and the councils within the existing act, and feels that some of the changes are going to assist them in achieving certain things for their commu nities, but we have to also probably look at some possible im plications for the amen dmen t. One aspect of the bill,

interpretation of the bill, that I would see is that commu ni ties can as sume a certain amount of control over the development of land located both within and surrounding their boundaries. Well, you do not want to, I feel, give total control away. You have to have some say as to how Crown lands or property within the communi ties are being used.

You have to have input from the communi ty leaders as to what is best for their commu n ities and what is best for their areas to be able to develop, to be able to put some roads in, to be able to get some reside ntial developmen t, to be able to build commu nity halls, to do many things in a commun ity that would benefit. I feel that local commu nity councils should have-you cannot just take away something from these people who represent their commun ities, who are repr esent i ng the people within their communi ties, to better develop the living conditions and education conditions within the commu nity.

You have to have consultation. These people have to be able to be provided with an access so that they can have a say in what is going to go on within their communi ty. You cannot just say, well, here we go. We are going to leave it up to the mi ni ster to decide this or the minis ter to decide that because the process is there or whatnot, and we cannot just leave that, Madam Deputy Speaker.

We have to say, well, sure, in certain situations because of the system as it is, with the bu reaucratic tim etable and bureaucratic work that has been done in the past and perhaps somewhat in the near future, we have to in certain situations allow the communit ies and the commu nity leaders to be able to access the right to be able to come through with a project, or a road or whatever it may be, with some expe