Province of Newfoundland FORTY - FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Volume XLI First Session Number 41 VERBATIM REPORT (Hanscird) t Speaker Honourable Thomas Lush .. Monday [ItbIètthñaryTffnsit] 27 November 1989

The House met at 2:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (Lush): Order, please! The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations MS COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to draw the attention of the House today to the fact that we are celebrating an important anniversary in Newfoundland, that is the Anniversary or the First TC*jo Hundred Association.

That Association was established forty years ago and it is, of course, even more important that that Association came into being because fifty years ago there was a first sailing from Newfoundland of those individuals who had answered the call to enter the • Second World War. So I would like it if the House would join with me in offering congratulations to that Group as they celebrate today. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOLJT: Thank you, Mr. Speakei'. My colleagues on this side of the House would like to join with the Government and the expressions by the hon.

Minister in recognizing today the first group of 200. I believe, it was 198, actually, but they are referred to as the first 200, w h o left Newfoundland and Labrador. The first in the British Empire, as I understand it, to volunteer to serve in the Second World War. It is fit ....ing and proper that this House . recognize this special occasion, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. SPEAKER: Before moving on to Ministerial Statements, on behalf of all hon.

Members we would like to welcome to the galleries today three delegations representing t h r e e town councils, as follows, firstly: a delegation from the Harbour Breton Town Council in the persons of the Mayor, Calvin Bugner, Deputy Mayor, James Cox, Councilors Dan Chapman a n d Eric Dawe. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.. SPEAKER A delegation also From the Gaultois Town Council in the persons of Ma yor Roy Ingram, Councilors Ron SiunTs , Gordon Hunt, Glen Rogers, and Town Clerk - Sylvin Rose. SOME_HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: And from the Gambo Town Council, the great historic District of Bonavista North, the Mayor Peter Lush, Councilors Andy Kelly, Brian lanes, Gordon Paul, and Town Clerk, Miss Effie Barkhouse, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER A delegation also from the Marystown Council represented by their Mayor, Derm Welsh, Deputy Mayor, Mary Hodder, and Councilors Sam Synyard, John Baker, Pius D u c e y and Uince Bren ton, Town Manager, Jim Mayo Town Clerk, Li November 27, 1989 vol XLI No, 41 Ri

Dennis Kelly, Recreation Director, Ken Anthony, I am sure all the Members extend them a welcome. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Statements by Ministers MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance DR. KITCHEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, during the debate last week on Bill 42 having to do with The Local Authority Guarantee Act, a number of points were made in the debate and I agreed to make available to Members of the House a complete listing of all the debts owed by municipalities, in the form of either loan guarantees, or loans from the Newfoundland Municipal Financial Corporation, and I am pleased at this moment to table this listing as of October 16th., which is the date that was used in the Bill.

These Bank Loans to Municipalities, which ' have b e e n guaranteed by the Province, as well as a listing of loans to municipalities by the NMFC, also guaranteed. The Bank loans total in excess of seventy million, while the Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation loans are approximately three hundred and fifty—nine million, for, a total municipal debt to the Province of four hundred and twenty--nine mill. ion dollars, and the amounts owed by each municipality are set forth in this listing which I am tabling.

You notice for example 1 I do not wish to pick them out, but just by way of illustration the first one on the list, Admiral's Beach, has a guaranteed loan of $436, 500 and a guaranteed bank loan of $33,000 which means that the work is in progress and not in the form of the NMFC loan; it is for a total of $470,000 and similarly the Town of Bonavista For example, owes $6.7 million dollars, Botwood $4.5 million and so on, they are all listed, each municipality here as of October 16th, the date that the

schedule was prepared for the Bill, I am sure Members will find it very interesting to peruse these. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition; MR. RIDEOUT Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker first of all let me thank the Minister of Finance for , providing this House with this information, this information was asked for by the Opposition when we were debating the Local Guarantee Bill a week or so ago. Nhat I find interesting about the information provided by the Minister, is actually what is missing from it.

We have the NMFC guarantees and we have the outstanding guarantens that have not yet b e e n rolled int.o the Municipal Financing Corporation, but I think what would he v e r y interesting for the Housc., Mr. Speaker, and for the Province, and why we raised the question a week or so ago, was to try to get some understanding of what per cent of this debt was actually paid by the Province on behalf of municipalities , because that really flows then into the position taken by the.

President. of Treas u r y Board tAJhen he was over here, suggesting that because the Province was . paying a large percentage of that debt anyway on L S 1-2 November 27, 1989 Uol XLI No. 41 R2

S . . behalf of Municipalities, why was it not treated as grants rather than turning up as loans and as guaranteed debt under the Municipal Financing Corporation? That was the point we were trying to get at, and while the information is very interesting and will provide us with many sleepless nights as we try to decipher it, we still do not have the ability, because the paper does not address the question of how much of. this is in fact being paid by the Province, So therefore, why is it not treated as grants to Municipalities rather than debt financing. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker.

MR.SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance DR. KITCHEN: Mr, Speaker, I have another item that bears a comment, namely in accordance with

section 26 subsection 1 4 The Financial Administration Act 1973, the Department of Works, Service and Transportation is authorized to commence entering into agreements for the purchase of goods and services to be delivered in the fiscal year 1990-91. What I am tabling here are pre••-comnmitmnents . One for in a i nt e nan c e of eq u i p me it and supplies for $5 million, one for vehicle and equipment $4 million, and one for , maintenance and repairs $2 million. I apologize to the hon. Leader of the Opposition for not providing a copy of this earlier. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. 'RIDEOUT Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do not know whether or not the information that the Minister is providing to the House right now is even supposed to be presented on this particular order of business, I have no idea. He has apologized, I can only accept his apology for not providing the Opposition with a copy of any Ministerial Statement that he might be making, which is the normal and courteous thing to do. Other than that, Mr. Speaker, we do not have a thing in front of us.

We will have to have a look at it when we get an opportunity, and see whether or not the Minister of Finance is trying to take the House on his back again, Mr. Speaker. Oral Questions MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I had a question for the Minister of Mines and Energy, but in h i s absence I would like to direct the question to the President of the Co u n c i. 1, the Go v e r ri in en t H o u s e Leader.

In view oft he fact that the Province along with the Government of Canada have begun land claim negotiations with the Labrador Inuit Association, and in view of the fact that prior to the start of those negotiations the Province adopted and made public a provincial policy respecting pro v i s i o n a 1 in e a s u r e s 1:1-ia It the L3 November 27, 1989 Vol. XLI No. 41 R3

S Province would adhere to, and that would guide the Province through the course of those negotiations, and in view of the fact that one of those provisional measures the Province adopted required the Province to consult with the Labrador Inuit Association before taking any action that might impede or impact in any way on the LIAs land claims, could the Minister , tell the House why it was that the Minister of Mines and Energy could execute a twenty—five year lease with the Iron Ore Company of Canada without any consultation whatsoever with the Labrador Inuit Association, thereby clearly flying in the face of the adopted Government policy and the provisional measures the Government have adopted in dealing with this particular land claims issue?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader. Mr. Speaker, if I remember correctly, the same issue has been raised a couple of times previously. What I will have to do is take the question under advisement. My understanding (Alas that what was d o n e. was d o n e properly in light of the agreements that exist and so on, and the understandings between LIA and Government, However, having said that, I will have to say to the Leader of the Opposition I will look into it and report back tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: T h e hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOIJT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Nobody is denying the assertion that the procedure was done properly and done according to law. The problem here is that the Government in adopting their land claims policy and their provincial provisional measures policy have said they would do one thing and have ended up doing something else. Now, could the Minister tell the House this: On every occasion, as I understand it, when the Government negotiators have sat down with the LIA negotiators they have repeatedly said to those negotiators, We must bargain in good faith. We must trust each other.

Can the Minister explain to the House how this failure to consult with the LIA on this particular Strange Lake lease squares with the position the Government negotiators are taking every time they meet around the negotiating table of, bargaining in good faith and trusting each other. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader. Mr. Speaker, the rhetoric of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is interesting, but because he states something to be so does not necessarily mean that it is so. As I iiidi cated to him, I will look into the situation.

I am absolutely certain that what is being done is being done properly, and just because the Leader of the Opposition says that no negotiations are being done in good faith and so on, does not mean that that situation exists, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader OF the Opposition. S S November 27, 1989 vol XLI No. 41 Ri-

. C MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, it is interesting how the Government House Leader can take words and twist them to mean something different. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is a fact: The Labrador Inuit Association have now said publicly that they feel betrayed by the actions of this Government, and in particular the Minister of Mines and Energy, over this Strange Lake lease. That is their public commentary, Mr. Speaker, not my rhetoric.

Now, would the Minister, tell the House this: What action does the Government intend to take now to correct this betrayal and to get those negotiations back on track with a view to settling the outstanding issues in a co—operative and consultative way? What is the Government going to do to get the negotiations moving again, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader. TW it to Mr. Speaker, my information is that the negotiations are on track. There is no need to get them back on track because they are on track, and I refuse to-take

part in verbal repartee that will inflame unnecessarily what is going on now. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS Mr. Speaker, the LIA is not the only group in this Province feeling betrayed by this Government. I can tell you the L5 November 27, 1989 Vol. XLI people of Grand Fails certainly feel the same way, and for very good reason.

Last Friday, my questions to t h e Minister of Justice: The Minister of Justice, last Friday, November 240, said in Hansard, Page RH, and I quote, 'Why, one may ask, was a court built in Grand Falls to start with?' First of all, I point out to him, a court was not built, the court has been there for years. It is a courthouse we are talking about. Mr. Speaker, there is lots of evidence of the need for that courthouse .Grand Falls, for example, had a resident Superior Court Judge before any other community in Central Newfoundland, including Gander.

The Bar As sociation in Grand Falls petitioned for a new courthouse., the Chief Justice recommended it, indeed, I spoke to him personally about it. The Chamber of Commerce, the Town Council, judges in Grand Falls, visiting judiciary, recommended by Public Works, recommended by his own Department, and even the Premier, Mr. Speaker, wanted a courthouse in Central Newfoundland, albeit in Windsor. Mr. Speaker, would the Minis her now agree that the slight towards Grand Falls and Central Newfoundland was unwarranted, unworthy, unfair and totally u n n e c e s s a r y?

A n d wo u I d the Minister now publicly apologize to the people of Grand Falls f o r makfng those highly oFfensive statements in the Legislature last Friday morning? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. No. 41 Rb .

MR.DICKS: Leader. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMS As the hon. Mr. Justice Noel used to say in response to rather protracted questions by lawyers, I suppose there is a question in all that. Obviously, the Member has taken something from the record and quoted it somewhat out of context, with all due respect. What I said was, in view of the urgent needs of the Province. Grand Fails was not at the top of the priority list.

So what I indicated quite clearly on the record was that Gander was and has been, particularly at the time of this courthouse being constructed, the first, foremost location at which a courthouse should have been built. That was not the case. Now, as to the lobbying and the petitioning, the fact that it was located in the hon. Member's district should speak for itself.

And notwithstanding the lobbying of this group, I can assure him that there are litany groups in the Province which lobby for many things, but it falls to the Government to do the responsible thing, to do the right thing, and to address on an appropriate bases which should be done first. And, quite frankly, Grand Falls has a courthouse, a n d I am pleased to see it, but there is no doubt in my mind, having reviewed all the circumstances and looking at priorities both now and at that time, that Gander took priority and precedence and it should have been built there. For that, I offer no apology . Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House It has not taken this Minister long to reach the arrogance level of his Premier and other colleagues in Government, Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister if he would for once stop playing games and perhaps read a little less Senica, which I think is the book he carries around with him all the time. This particular proj ect was worked on since 1986. The courthouse was in Grand Falls for years and years and years; it needed repladernent. So it did not happen yesterday.

Would he show decency For a change and give an honest and straightforward answer to the people about this question? Why exactly is that new courthouse not open, even though it was completed and due to open four months ago, last August? Can he give us an exact answer without the rhetoric? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. DICKS Mr. Speaker, two things: One is no, I cannot. And let me ex13.1a1.ri to the hon. Member why I am not. in that position. First of all, the courthouse in Grand Falls was built when there was a freeze on Government construction.

For some reason an arrangement w a s made, and I suspect it: was when the hon. Mrriber was President of .reasury Board, to build a courthouse with a private developer a n d lease it back to the Government: to facilitate construction in Grand Falls , For some unknown reason again. Now, as to why it is not built, I suggest he contact the private developer who is d o i n g it. and obtain an a n s w e r From that is L6 November 27, 1989 Vol XLI No. 41 R6

. . quarter. Thank you, Mr. Speaker MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader. MR._SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I cannot believe my ears. I mea p. is the developer the Minister of Justice now, or should I phone the hon. Doug Howse or who? You are the Minister of Justice. You should be able to provide the answer if you have any interest in court facilities for the Province. I will ask the Minister this. Obviously he is continuing to be evasive, so I would ask him to try to be a bit more straightforward, He said he cannot give the answer, he cannot give the information.

Would the Minister undertake to get an answer for the House he has been asked twice now, Friday and today - and table the information in the House in the next couple of days?. It should not bemuch trouble. He should be interested in it, anyway. And will he admit that perhaps the real reason why that courthouse is not open is because it is a very easy way for this Minister to save money in his budget this year, simply because it is project being undertaken in the district held by a Progressive Conservative?

And will he acknowledge that this really is just another example of this Government' s blatant disregard towards the district of Grand Falls and the people of Central Newfoundland? Would he acknowledge that? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice MR. DICKS: Thank you. Mr. Speaker. If I may instruct the hon. Member Opposite, the people of the Province have already shown that an easy way to save money in Government is to change Administrations, which they did in April. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hearl MR. DICKS: What the hon. Member has said is manifestly not true.

The courthouse was originally scheduled to be opened in or about the month of November, and it is somewhat delayed. As I indicated to my learned friends opposite the other day, I viewed the facility, I think it was in the month of September, and it was substantially corn plc t e at t hat time. The fact that I was not able to attend an opéming in November does not trouble me unduly. In response to the hon. Member's question, I will try to find out why, in fact, it may hue been delayed for several weeks, and let him know in due course. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. The Opposition House Leader. MR.

SIMMS Mr. Speaker, I have a short question for the President of Treasury Board, the Government House Leader. This Government, Mi". Spea ier, cancelled a $1 million contribution towards a Regiona]. Recreation Complex For the Exploits Valley area, it delayed the water treatment plant project in Grand Falls, they cancelled the Community College expansion project, $3 million, they cancelled Recreation grants, they L7 November 27, 1989 Vol XLI No. 41 R7

. cancelled paving the southeast arterial road, and now they have delayed the courthouse opening. Mr. Speaker, how much move evidence do we need that this Government is punishing Grand Falls? And is it not true that this Government's famous fairness and balance statements are nothing more than a major sham and a bluff perpetrated on the people of Newfoundland and Labrador? SOME_HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! -- MR.SPEAKER: The hon. The Government House Leader. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do not know which of these comments to answer.

Question Period is so short, I will not try to answer them all, I will simply say to the Member opposite that because we did not carry out every single election promise he made does not indicate that fairness and balance does not exist. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister, of Fisheries. Over this past weekend I had the opportunity to attend the Combined Councils of Labrador Annual Meeting. The hon. the Member for Eagle River was also in attendance.

He was speaking on behalf of all Government Departments, and he advised those in attendance that the Government's policy with re.spect to the Fisheries is, and I quote, 'Those closest to the resource would be and should be the first to benefit' . Would the Minister advise the hon. House if this is a policy of his Government? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I do not necessarily accept the

preamble. I am sure if the hon. Member was speaking he spoke well and made a good speech, but I understand there were Cabinet Ministers at that meeting. Mr. Speaker, the matter of adjacency is a principle the Province supports, and that is the basis on which we are now endeavouring to remove the Nova Scotian fishery, I suppose, from' the 2J+3KL area. The principle of adjacency is a principle that is embodied in The Law of the Sea Conference as it relates to Labrador. Certainly I think, the people of Labrador have the right to have first call on the resource. Luckily, Mr.

Speaker, it appears that there is enough there both for the plants in Labrador and to be able to make a substantial contribution to the processing sector on the Island' part of the Province. But the principle of adjacency is one. to which this Province subscribes, certainly in terms of the national scene when it applies to outside provinces that are given certain - quotas within the 23+3KL area. I repeat what I said a moment ago, that in the case of Labrador, I think the people down there I3ave a right to expect that their plants be provided with an adequate supply of raw material to keep them operating. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains . . 1-8 Noveinber 27, 1989 vol XLI No. 41 R8

. . MR. WARREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker I would like to ask the Minister a straightforward question, once again. Is it the policy of this Government that those closest to the resource should be the first to benefit? Yes or no. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries MR, N. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what more he wants. I can write him a letter after Question Period, if that will help. If that will help, I will write him a letter.

I stated a moment ago what the policy of the Government is to the principle of adjacency, which means, of course, that the communities that are adjacent to the resource will get first crack at the resource . And I repe.at what I said, that I see no reason why the communities and the fish plants in Labrador should not he given first crack at the resource. That is not to say, by the way, that any surplus will not go to the' Island part of the Province, MR.SPEAKER: The hon, the member for Torngat Mountains MR. WARREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker Would the Minister kindly answer this question?

In view of the fact that indeed it is the policy of this Government and presently there are something like close to 400 fish plant workers between Nain and L'Anse—au—Clair who do not qualify for UIC benefits this year, and in view of the fact that there are Labrador fish plants between Nain and LAnse—au--Clair that would be open today if the resource was available, why has the Minister one of the middle di s ta n c e f 1. cc t s f i s hi n g Al i I: hi n sixty miles of Nain, Flopedale, and Makkovik, which has already. delivered one load of fish to the St.

Anthony plant and are now on the way to bringing back t h e second load? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. N. CARTER Mr. Speaker, as Minister, of course, I art not following the movements of our middle dis tance boats on a daily basis, Now, I accept what he has said, and I promise I will take the question as notice and maybe later on, during this afternoons session, .1 will provide an answer for him. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo MR._NINSOR: I have a question for the Minister of Employment and L a b o u r Relations, The Emergency Response Program has been in place now for a couple of weeks, and this Administration has announced that it will adopt a wait a n d see attitude. It has now been two weeks, so can the Minis ter tell us how many people, fishermen a n d fish plant workers, registered at CEIC for the program and how many actually qualified? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minis ter of Employment and Labour Relations MS COWAN: Thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker I am just trying to recall, because the Minister of Fisheries and I were speaking about it just L9 November 27, 1989 Vol XLI No. 41 R9

before lunch. I do not want to quote the figure, because I might not be quite correct on it. It would probably be better to direct it to him, AN HON. MEMBER: Quote it. MS COWAN: I am not going to quote anything that I am not certain of in this House, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. WINSOR: I thank the Minister for that substantial answer. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

WINSOR: As the Minister has now been in her position for over six months, and in that period of time the unemployment rate in the Province has risen' by, I think, 2 per cent, not counting the number of people who have moved out, can the Minister now tell this House what employment strategy her Department has to deal with this crisis in our Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, MS COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There are a couple of responses to that, several in fact.

First of all, we are preparing programs for the Budget, as I referenced last week when I was asked a similar question. We a r e at. the moment planning a meeting with 8arbara McDougall, in Ottawa, hopefully to take place on Wednesday of this week, although I am not certain about that. I am going with the Minister of Fisheries to Ottawa on Wednesday to see the hon. Mr. Siddon, and we hope at that time to be able to see the hon. Barbara McDougall as well. We continue to administer all the programs that were approved in the Budget that was prepared and set before this House and voted on earlier in the spring.

MR._NINSOR: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo on a supplementary. MR. WINSOR I cannot believe what I am hearing Did I hear the Minister say she is going to deal with the crisis next year? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! - MR. WINSOR: In my district, nearly 200 I3npple have already left Fogo Island to seek work on the Mainland, and of the 200 who registered for the CEIC Emergency Response Program, only sixty got employment. Has the Minister some kind of a strategy in place for, cot rncmnities like Fogo, that have been devastated by the fishcmy?

They will not qualify for the Emergency Response Program, so what are these people going to do this winter? Does the Minister have a program to deal specifically with rural Newfou ndland whi, c h has communities that a r e suffering because of h e r inability to put programs in place From t h e. Province, not Ottawa - from the . . 110 November 27, 1989 Vol XLI No. 11 RiO

S I Province? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. MS COWAN: I just told the hon. gentleman in my previous comments that I am going to Ottawa to discuss these matters with the hon. Mr. Siddon and the hon. Barbara McDougall, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Green Bay. MR.HEWLETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the absence of the Minister of Mines and Energy, I direct this to the Government House Leader..

Recently, in answer to a question from the Leader oft he Opposition, the Premier indicated that the constitutional entrenchment of the Atlantic Accord was not a Government priority. However, sometime ago, in a Ministerial Statement, the Minister of Mines and Energy indicated that the Province was fighting for all it was worth for all the industrial benefits we wore entitled to under the Atlantic Accord, If the Accord is so important, why is Government not pursuing its entrenchment more forcefully? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasur\i Board. MR. BAKER: Mr.

Seaker, as has been stated a number of times in the House, discussions are proceeding with regards to the implementation of previous agreements having to do with Hibernia. The statement has Lii November 27, 1989 vol XLI been made in this House that the Atlantic Accord was, perhaps, not the be-ali and end'-all , that it was perhaps signed for other reasons, and was something that should have been signed in 1982.

Discussions are ongoing, and negotiations are ongoing regarding the i n d u s trial IDe n e f i t s fr a in Hibernia, and when something definite comes out of these discussions, this House will be the first to know. These di s c u s s ion s wi 1 1 c o n t i n U C regardless of the entrenchmc.nt of the Atlantic Accord, I would like to po.int out to the Member opposite that the Atlantic Accord only goes as far anyway as trying to guarantee a very small expenditure on Hihernia .

The only thing in the Atlantic Accord with regards to expenditure of money is a guarantee that $1 billion will be spent on the Hihernia project. MR. SIMMS: What he asked was, are you pursuing it? MR. BAKER: The fine points of that Atlantic Accord have not been ironed cut yet, so it is not a final document; a final agreement has not been reached. So I would say to the hon. Member that we are doing now, a n d the discussaons we are in now, goes perhaps, far beyond what. the Atlantic Accord envisioned. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Green I3ay, MR. HEWLETT: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

At the recent First Ministers' Conference the Premier argued for No. 41 Ri:I.

a more powerful Senate but really did not pursue in any great way a constitutional arnendrnent.giving us more say over the fisheries. Indeed, he says provinces and premiers have too much power and that we cannot handle more power over the fisheries. Is not, the Premier's preoccupation with increasing the power of the federal institutions inconsistent with our exercising rights under the Atlantic Accord? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MR.BAKER: I suspect most people in Canada realize, and maybe Members opposite should start to realize, that for the smaller provinces in this country it is very important that we have a strong central Government, very, very important, because in this Country we depend upon fairness and balance. MR. TOBIN: You sound just like Trudeau. Here is somebody interjecting about Trudeau. That was not a strong central Government under Trudeau. We need fairness and balance in the Country as a whole.

In this country we need to realize that the economic activity in southern Ontario is being fueled by the rest of the Country, that the economic activity in •central and southern Ontario depends upon the rest of this Country and, therefore, there should be mechanisms for making sure the whole Country b e n e f i t s from that economic activity. The only way to do that is to make sure that we are in fact a Country with a strong central Government. IF we are simply a collection of individual little countries put together, then we cannot possibly hope to benefit from the prosperity of central Canada. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HEWLETT: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Green Bay, a final supplementary. MR. HEWLETT: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure that having one-tenth of the say in the Senate is going to move us up very much on Confederation's ladder, I would ask the hon. Minister this: The Premier is threatening to tear up the Meech Lake Accord, a n d he has been confrontational with the Federal Government, is the Premier not setting a precedent that if the Federal Government so wished, they could tear up the Atlantic Accord? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board. That is a rather strange connection to draw there. I am amazed sometimes att.he g a p s in logic in the hon. Member's statement, The TripleE Senate will guarantee more equity in this country, a Triple-f Senate w h e r e the 'Senate is elected and equal, ten representatives from e a c h province, or five, or whatever, i€ happens to be --' an equal number of representatives from each province and having power in the country, Other than giving us a balance of power in the.

House of Commons that is the surest way t.o guarantee that the, interests of i ii di v i ci u a 1 pro vi n c e s ae 100 1< ed L12 November 27, 1989 . Vol XLI No. 41 R12

. . out for in this country. The House of Commons is representation by population. The House of Commons is distributed according to the population in this country, therefore, the control of the House of Commons is with Ontario and. Quebec combined. That is the control. And that body should exist, because there should be representation by population; but in our country there should also be equal representation by province. And I say to the hon. gentleman, do not scoff at it so easily, do not write it off so easily. It is a very important concept, one that he should have a look, at and seriously consider. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride. MR. R. AYLWARD: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Would the Minister OF Works, Services and Transportation, as I know he has done before, explain to this House the method of choosing the roads projects for the provincial roads capital works program for this year? MR. EFFORD: Fairness and balance, boys. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works Services and Transportation. MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, As I have explained in the House before, when we t o o k o v e r the Government on April 20 this year and when we were sworn in I guess it was May S at the time we had to go through the process of getting Interim Supply passed .through the House, and then the Budget, In the process, there had to he some tenders called for the local roads that come under the provincial Budget, not the ERDA agreements.

Under that agreement, we had to have it within the constraints of the Budget, so I said to the officials in my Department, Provide rue, with a list on a priority or on a fairness and balance basis of what is needed in the transportation system in Newfoundland, Never mind the purely political, partisan lists that the previous Government have put in there, give me a list within the constraints of the amount we are going to be putting into the Budget, somewhere in the vicinity of $30 million, So, that was how the list was derived at.

It was compiled by the people who knew the needs of the Province without any political interference, as was done uHder , the previous Administration, and all of them are guilty of,it . The thing I find extremely interesting, Mr. Speaker, is that they just cannot believe that things are done in a fair and balanced way. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! - MR. R. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister MR, SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilhride MR. R. AYLWARD: I just wanl: to a s k him a coulole. OF short questions.

First of all, would he provide and tab] e in this House the list that was are pared by the public servants? Would he L13 November 27, 1989 Vol XLI No. Al R13

answer this question? That

section of the Bareneed road which passes in front of the Minister or former Minister of Social Services' house - I am not sure which he is now - was that on the list, Mr. Speaker? If it was not on the list, was there a separate tender given out for that

section of road, after the original tenders were issued, or was it an extension of one of the tenders that had already been issued? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works Services and Transportation.. MR. GILBERT Mr. . Speaker, I will take the Member' s question under advisement. Because it requires detail I do not have, I will provide him with the list in Answers to Qu stions consumption of wine is somewhat less than the nation, and the consumption of beer is somewhat higher. MR.SIMMS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS: Mr.

Speaker, this is merely a routine procedure Presenting Reports by Standing Committees and Special Committees. It is not an occasion where there are speeches or elaborations or anything else, sirnpling tabling. The Minister is wasting the time of the House, and it is important because Members on this side do not get a chance to respond under this Heading. So we should keep things in strict order. MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has expired. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker. . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance DR.KITCHEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am presenting the Report of the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation for the year ended March 31, 1989. In doing so I would like to call attention of hon. Members to certain points in that Report. We note from the Report, people will be interested in knowing, that the consumption of spirits in the Province compares about the same as the consumption of spirits in the nation, that the MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader. MR.BAKER: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Member has a point, the Minister, is simply making a very brief comment on a Report that is significant.

I am sure that he is only trying to help hon. Members by his comments. MR.SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. Opposition House Leader is correct to an extent. Generally, the particular routine is for, the. presentation of reports w i t h as little commentary as possible, hut in the past it has been customary for a Minister to mako a fnw brief L14 , November 27, 1989 vol XLI No. 41 Ri'!

passing remarks. The hon. the Minister of Finance DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, I will cut them very short and thank you. I just want to point out that in the Report it indicates that we have thirty—seven liquor stores and fifty—flue agency stores and that this is the highest proportion of privately ouined stores in Canada, That is the point that I wanted to make there. Members will be very interested in knowing that again this year revenue from the commissions on beer exceeds the • profits on the operation of the Newfoundland and Labrador Liquor Corporation. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development. MR.

FUREY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Marystown Shipyard Limited Consolidated Financial Statements foF' the year ending March 26, 1988. Those statements should have been tabled,. Mr. Speaker, by the previous Government but the House was never opened so I will table them now. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Notices of Motion MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development. is MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tommorrow ask le.ave to introduce a Bill entitled "An Act To Amend The Co—operative Societies Act". MR. SPEAKER: The .hon . the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following resolution:

WHEREAS t h e Prern:ie.r has rejected opportunities to advance Newfoundland and Labrador by enhancing provicil r i g Ii It 5 through the Me.ech Lake Accord, and

WHEREAS the Provincial Government has no constitutional power over the management of the fishery, the. Province' s most important industry, yet the Premier is prepared to scuttle the Mooch Lake provision for a negotiation of shared provincial fisheries management, and WHE.REAS the Premier has stated flatly that. there is no point for the Province to seek more power, because the. Province does not have the ability to exercise it, and

WHEREAS the. Premier is advocating that inure power over the lives ofthe people of the Province be centralized with the Federal Government in Ottawa, and

WHEREAS there has not been such a condemnation of Lhe ability and potential oF the people of Newfoundland a n d Labrador since the Amulree Commission Report of 1933, which lead to Commission of Government;

BE IT RESOLVED, Mr. Speaker, that this hon. House OF Assembly declare full confidence in the intelligence, talent, skill, energy, a n d resourcefullne.ss of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. And, be it further resolved that this hon. House L15 November 27, 1989 Vol XLI No. Al Rib

declare complete faith in the aL 5PEAKEr ability of the people of the Order, please! Province, collectively, to handle additional power, through the MR. N. CARTER: Provincial Government, and In the case of the Labrador Shrimp exercise it to the benefit of this Company, Mr. Speaker, certain Province, conditions were offered that were not acceptable to that company, SOME HON. MEMBERS: hence the landing had to occur in Hear, hear! St. Anthony, Answers to Questions Orders of the Day for which Notice has been Given MR. BAKER: MR._SPEAKER: Order 7, Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister of Fisheries.

Second reading of a Bial, "An Act MR, N.CARTER: Respecting . The Department Of Mr. Speaker, with your permission Fisheries.' I believe the hon. I would now like to reply to the the Member for St. Johns East question put to me by the hon. the Extern (Mr. Parsons) was speakinq Member for Torngat (Mr. Warren) to that. concerning the landings carried out by one of our mid—distance MR. SIMMS: vessels. I am informed, Mr. A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Speaker, that the vessel itself was fishing for turbot on an MR.

SPEAKER: experimental basis and that the The Opposition House Leader, on a plants in Makkovik and the point of order. Labrador Shrimp Company were both -offered the catch. However, the . MR.

SIMMS: conditions under which it had to I am afraid I inight Forget it so be offered were not acceptable, before the afternoon runs out I and .1 should elaborate on that. just want to advise the House that Under the Collective Agreement the resolution we will he calling with the Fishermen's Union the on Private Member's Day, f i s h caught by the mid-distance Wednesday, will he the resolution boats must be auctioned to ensure introduced very ably by my that the top price is received colleague the Leader of the and, . of course, the top wages Oppositionearlier today. Just so , earned by the fishermen.

I am all Members are aware of it, it. is told that the pri,ce offered, or the Provincial Rights Resolution. agreed to, or the economics of it would not be acceptable. . SOME HON .MEMBERS: Hear, hear! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for, St.J ohri ' s MR. N, CARTER: East Extern. Mr. Speaker, could I please have quiet? MR. PARSONS: -..-...- . L16 November 27, 1989 vol XLI No. 41 R16

S Thank you, very much, Mr. Speaker. I believe I have about six or seven minutes left. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR.PARSONS: A half hour is fine with me. MR. SPEAKER: Seventeen. MR. PARSONS: Oh, glory be to God, I will not be using it. Mr. Speaker. I covered the areas on Friday that I have concerns with as it pertains to the fishery. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would just like to remind the hon. gentleman we were wrong. It is seven minutes he has left and not seventeen. MR. PARSONS: That is what I thought Mr.

Speaker, from my point of view, and many others in Newfoundland and Labrador, we consider a number of things that are paramount as to the dilemma that we find our fishery in today. Number one, we all know that the overfishing on the Nose and the Tail of the Grand Banks is something that has to be addressed and how we go about addressing it, Mr.Speaker, I suppose, the only avenue left open for us is in the diplomatic field.

I do not think we are going to use any other kind of pressures to get Portugal and the Spaniards to come to the bargaining table or just to explain to them what is happening, L17 November 27, 1989 vol XLI that what they are doing could cause the destruction of the whole Province. I am a firm believer that if we do not stop the fishing during the months of, I believe it is January to March, when the fish are spawning, I. firmly believe, I am firmly convinced and many others like me, that we will destroy our fishery, our Northern cod - I read an

article by a biologist who said that he did not know, but there were some doubts about it. Mr. Speaker, I say to the hon. House if there is any doubt at all, do not let it happen. Mr. Speaker, we have made a lot of mistakes which started off with the two hundred mile limit , When the two hundred mile limit became a reality, the Federal Government should have at that time taken in all our continental shelf, t h e nose and tail of the Grand Banks, and have control over it. Since that day, Mr. Speaker, we have had numerous committees, numerous reports, and I would like to mention a couple.

We had the Kirby report, we had a report done by Dr. Alverson, arid now Dr. Harris, and I think that his report is pending and should he preseh'ted to Governme.nt within the 'next short period. Mr. Speaker, now we have a new man on the scene by the name of Stein, and I think that this gentlermian has to come up with a solution, I do not think that it is possible, Mr.

Speaker, but he has to come up with something that will satisfy the big companies, something that will satisfy the stock market, something that IAII.11 h a v e to satisfy t h e Federal Government, and the unions , I mean I would not consider wanting hi.s lob, .or taking his job if it was passed to rue on a silver platter, No. 41 Ri7 .

. Mr. Speaker, with all the other reports that came in as it pertained to our fisheries - I do not know if we are gullible or not, Mr. Speaker, but they were accepted as gospel. I hope that this time around, this Government and this Opposition, will all speak in unison, and send a message that I do not think was ever sent before. Mr. Speaker, we want a program or programs that keep our plants open. Mr. Speaker, we want the same programs so we will keep our Newfoundlanders and Labradorians employed for the interim period.

This is a renewable resource we all know, and while the renewal period is in progress we want the Federal Government to do For us what they did for the Western provinces, and bring in a program to address an emergency situation, Mr. Speaker. An emergency situation because that is what we have here in Newfoundland and Labrador. Mr. Speaker, I do not think that any Government, I do not think that any group of people in Newfoundland and Labrador who presently have discussions ongoing with this task force, should ever sell the Newfoundlanders and Labradorians down the river, because that is what they are doing.

If any group in Newfoundland suggest, even vaguely, that the Newfoundlanders and Labradorians had anything to do with the situation that is now in existence in our fishery, Mr. Speaker, their heads are in the sand Mr. Speaker, in closing I would ask the Government again for all Members, not alone on the Government side, I would likr to as 1< the Government to come around to say to Ottawa, look we are not going to close any plants, we are not going to victimize the six thousand people that the Premier talked about. We cannot do it, it is morally wrong.

They help other parts of Canada, and Newfoundland is no different. We want. Newfoundland to he helped, Newfoundland to be placed with the same criteria that they use. Now we know we are not talking about potatos, we know we are not talking about farm products, but we are talking about a renewable resource Mr. Speaker, I think it would be a mistake for anyone to place any fault on Newfoundlanders or Labradorians . The fault lies with the Federal Government and the Federal Government should take the responsibility for their own faults. Mr.

Speaker, I reiterate that there is no fault whatsoever to he laid on the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. They had nothing to do with this situation. Having said that, Mr. Speaker, I thank you very much. MR._DUMARESQQL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. - the Member for Eagle River. MR. D UMARE9UE: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I rise to address this Bill, "An Act Respecting Ihe Department OF Fisheries", and to. expound a hit on some of the questions that have arisen recently about a couple of things.

One thing, in particular, is the emergency response program for Fishermen, As has been polntE.d out in this . . L18 November 27, 1989 vol XLI No. 41 R18

. House, and throughout the Province via the media, in Labrador we have a particularly critical situation at the present time. We have some 250 individuals, men and women, all bona fide and full—time fishermen and plant workers, who have been told that they cannot qualify for the emergency response program for fishermen. This morning, Mr. Speaker, myself and the hon. William Rompkey and the Member for Bonavista - Trinity Conception, Admiral Mifflin, met with the media and discussed a number of things about this particular program. I guess, the point we wanted to make, Mr.

Speaker, is that in a press release on November 3rd, the Minister of Employment and Immigration, the hon. Barbara McDougall, made it quite clear that individuals who had lifelong attachment to the fishery would be given consideration in this program. I guess, where our frustrations are corning from is that at the local CEIC level, they are explicitly told to rigidly enforce the guidelines, that if you had ten full weeks in the fishery last year, you need three weeks this year to qualify; if you did not have ten full weeks last year in the fishery, you need six weeks to qualify this year. Mr.

Speaker, I do not know how much it is going to take. I do not know how many statistics they want to see at the welfare lines this winter in Labrador. I do not know how many hardship cases they will want to see on television in the next few months, but I know, if they had to answer the calls I have in the last little while, they would see people are very, very desperate indeed. People have gone through this summer without any fish, through no fault L19 November 27, 1989 vol XLI of their own.

Plant workers have gone through the summer, and indeed, throughout the year, without any qualifying weeks is some cases and, in most cases, with two or three qualifying weeks. So I wanted to again bring it up as much as possible, to bring it to Government's attention and ask the Minister of Employment and Immigration through this hon.

House, if she will see that the regulation and the compassion and understanding that they articulated in their press releases and she has articulated in the House of Commons, that this flexibility is built into the program and exercised at the grass roots of this Province and he able to respond to situations like I have. I know one particular case where I have . a sixty—four year old gentleman, he was lowered into the boat when he was nine years old and for fifty—four y e a r s he has been a full—time active fisherman.

Last year in the Labrador Straits we had a terrible. fishery, he only had three qualifying weeks, therefore he qualified For emergency response, this year he only gof two qualifying weeks and they will not acknowledge h i s cxi s tenc e, they will n o t acknowledge h i m as a f i s h e r m a n at all even though he. s p e n t fifty—two years as a full time, fisherman, and never in those fifty—two years had to ask For any kind of emergency assistance or have to go to welfare or anything like that. Now that is the older people, and on the other side is the younger people.

I have people there that we encourage to go through the school s yste.rri and try to .get through grade twelve, hut now they are coining out or grade twelve, Mr. Speaker, and they need No. 41 R19 .

. twelve qualifying weeks in order to get on the emergency response program. Everybody knows that on the coast of Labrador the fishery is the only thing, there is no logging industry, there is no mining industry, there is no great tourism industry that can take up the slack at this particular point in time, all we have is the fishery, young and old, ever since you were old enough to get into the fishing boat as I did, we all had to go into the fishery. It was the only game in town and I cannot fathom, Mr.

Speaker, why, any conscious and responsible Government in our country would take these kinds of measures to actively try to displace the old and the young from our fishery in Labrador without telling us and without showing us, the alternatives that you are preparing for us. If you are 'going to put a mine in Labrador, well, tell us that too, but please, acknowledge, acknowledge the situation. The money is not the problem at this point in time. The CEIC office in Goose Bay is saying the money is not the problem; it is the 'criteri& that we are being told to strictly, rigidly enforce.

There is money there from this particular program that if it were freed up, if they were allowed to accommodate the hundred and thirty—flue or hundred and fifty people in this particular situation, they could do so without any financial hardship to this particular program. So again I would appeal through this hon.

House for the Federal Government to recognize that indeed we have hardship and terrible cases where families are not going to have a very, very good Christmas, Mr: Speaker, and I hope that in the near future that will be changed, and again we make a special plea on behalf of the uniqueness of Labrador because at twenty—five or thirty below zero, which is what is there now on the coast of Labrador, there is no way, if the program is not brought in again now before January for the other people, there is no way we can do anything with t h e breakwaters or the slipways or the community stages, they are all frozen over.

They had ninety—eight centimetres of snow in Nain about two weeks ago, there is no way that we are going to be able to react to those particular needs in Labrador, so it. is imperative that the changes come immediately. We have been saying that now, Mr. Speaker, through the media and every other opportunity, to see if this can be changed and I hope indeed that it will.

Now one of the opportunities to change some of this, one of the opportunities that was available to the Federal Government an the past number of yearsis For them, to institute into the Labrador fishery a proper developmenlal plan, one that would put accent on secondary processing and one that will indeed . give them some opportunity to get at the fish next to their door.

What I am s a y i n g to the Federal Government is, this principle of adjacency that they so proudly hold up and so proudly proclaim as being the answer to a lot of their problems why is it, f o r instance, that, t ha 't Progressive Co n s e r v a f i u e Government in Ottawa have routinely refused to give one fish of Northern Cod to our own native fish companies.

If they a r e so proud of that principle, why did they refuse to give one fish tail of our own Northern Cod to the Labrador Shrimp Company, to the Torngat Fisheries, when at the. same time they were g i v i n g portions of that Northern Cod to matniand shrimp companies in New . L20 November 27, 1989 Vol XLI No. 41 R20

Brunswick, Quebec and Nova Scotia. Why are they doing that, why at this point in time, when we have the richest shrimp fisheries in the whole world, we have not got one inshore shrimp fish licence on the coast of Labrador. If they are so concerned about having that particular segment of the Province taken care of, why the fifty-three inshore licences on the island of Newfoundland, not one along the coast of Labrador. We have the richest shrimp grounds off the Hopedale Channel that you are ever going to see. Province today.

And in our deliberations, I hope other Members will support this particular program being changed immediately, and that the particular programs of eligibility with fishery related projects be flexible enough to ensure that people living in communities where it is 25 degrees and 30 degrees below zero, that they will be able to go in and be able to provide meaningful things to their community. .

Again, when it comes to secondary processing, of all the cod that leaves the coast of Labrador, salt fish in particular, from Rigolet and on up through, at this point in time not one fish is dried on the coast of Labrador, not one; ten drying plants are in place on the Island. Mr. Speaker, we are fair people, but we cannot, sell out our dwn economic livelihood to sacrifice the political whims of the Government in Ottawa. It is clear, it is factual, it is blatantly unfair. Mr. Speaker, I just want to take this opportunity to again hfghlight a number of these things.

I hope in the near future the Government of Canada, which has the authority to enforce the quotas, has the authority to ensure that licences are issued For harvesting capacity throughout the Labrador coast, will, at this point in time, have the immediate authority to put compassion and understanding into their Emergency Response Programs.

And since people in our part of the Province have no ' mobility, there is no where to go in Cartwright or Black Tickle this time of year to look For a job, I hope they recognize that particular aspect of our In particular, I would hope that the Federal Government will allow gear replacement programs as an eligible program under this emergency response, because last year, Mr. Speaker, throughout the Labrador Straits, where we had a terrible 'Fishery, this particular program was available.

The fishermen there who had a terrible fishery were able to be helped out in two ways: the gear replacement program offered them an opportunity to buy a few nets, and it also offered thenri an opportunity to mend those nets and - to prepare them for the next season. So, while they never had the money, they were able to garner the fishing gear, and they had work, which qualified them for unemployment insurance last year, and they were able to provide that meaningFul gesture to their families and to the whole community. This year, Mr.

Speaker, the strict, harsh, and cruel guidelines that were put in place eliminated that Gear Replacement Program, and eliminated the long—time and new fishermen who are automatically associated with Labrador. I know our Minister of Fisheries responded on June 12. When I first alerted him on this 1 21 November 27, 1989 Vol XLI No. 41 R21

particular issue, he said, What are we going to do about it? I was there, and we made sure, in that first letter that went to that Minister of Fisheries, that there was the stipulation, 'If you bring in the Emergency Response Program this year, please allow for flexibility so that we can accommodate life—long fishermen, plant workers in the fishing industry, and please allow programs that will be of benefit to the community but will also reflect the uniqueness of Labrador. And the Gear Replacement Program, in particular, after it was announced that it was not in, I know this hon.

Minister of Fisheries FAXed off another letter to the appropriate Minister to have a review of that particular aspect of the Program. At this point we are obviously very disappointed that this particular aspect of the Program is not in place. Let me also say, Mr. Speaker, that this particular Minister has a program in his own Department right now where if a fishermen's committee has a project they want to put in place, and if they made application for top—up funding for materials, that program is there. That program is being exercised. It is being used to get extra materials in communities. That, I think, Mr.

Speaker, is a great indication of where this Government is coming from. They have been on top of this particular, issue, they have offered the alternatives, and if, indeed, the Federal Government were to do as they say and implement the flexibility clause and gear replacement in this Em erg e n c y Re s p o n s e Pro g rain, we would indeed have a very, very good situation. Iris toad, Mr. Speaker, we have hundreds of families along the coast of Labrador, hundreds of men, women, and children, who are going to have a very, very dark Chris tmas indeed. So I hope, again, Mr.

Speaker, that this will highlight and expose what the reality is out there and cause hon. Members to appreciate the uniqueness of Labrador and see why we always have to be consciously fitting that uniqueness into our decision—making and policy implementation process. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for , Torngat Mountains MR. WARREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. If you ever heard someone talking from both sides of his mouth, I think the Member For Eagle. River has lust done so. Mr.

Speaker, the hon. the Minister of Fisheries answered a question I put to him a short Lime ago. I know I am not allowed to say the Minister told a lic., and I would have to withdraw it, but, Mr. Speaker, I lust had a telephone conversation with a particular company in Labrador and I have been advised that that company was approached by a person by the name of David learn - AN HON. MEMBER: Cur ran? C] L22 November 27, 1989 Uol XLI No. 41 1 Nfl

fl . . MR. WARREN: Curran or Hearn - who is in charge of the middle distance fleet, and this company was asked if they were interested in the fish that was caught in waters off Labrador.. MR. DUMARESQUE: Which company is it? MR. WARREN: You just listen. Mr. Speaker, this gentleman asked, What are the details? And, as of 3:10 p.m., when I left my office, that company had not received an answer from the Department. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

WARREN: Now, let me tell the hon. the Minister and his colleague from Eagle River, who was talking about the Federal Government not putting their money where their mouth is, I think it is time for the Minister and the hon. Member to wake up and not say, 'We are going to look after the people closest to the resource first,' when you are part of this Government who are letting the fish go from Labrador to the Island part of the Province. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman went up to Labrador and was introduced as the spokesman for all Government Members , all Cabinet Members in Labrador; and sitting in the chair next to Mm was the Minister of Environment and Lands (Mr. Kelland) AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. WARREN: But the gentleman from Eagle River was the spokesman For all Government Departments in Labrador. I could understand the Member for Naskaupi being a little bit perturbed, to say the least, as a member of Cabinet - AN HON. MEMBER: No, he was not. MR. WARREN at having a backbencher designated spokesperson for Government throughout Labrador.

I would say it must he very, very embarrassing. Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman from Eagle River said, 'I was there when the Minister sent a telegram or a Fax to Ottawa. He was also there when the Minister did not tell t h e truth in this House today, Mr: S p C a k er. AN HON. MEMBER: What are you talking about? MR.WARREN: The honientleman .knows what I am talking about. The .hon. the Minister came back with t h e answer. Ask the hon. gentleman what he said, then you will know. Mr. Speaker, I tell you, it is pointless.

Last year, under this Federal Government program, I say to the hon. the Member For Eagle River, the former Min:i.ster of Fisheries, and the Provincial Government of t h e day, supplied money for materials to g e t t h e fishplant workers and the fishermen along the Labrador coast employment. It was this Government that d i d it. Mr. Speaker, this time last year the program was in effect, a n d this time last year there was fifteen to twenty centimeters of snow, the temperature was minus twenty—five and minus thirty degrees, but the L23 November 27, 1989 Vol XLI No. 41 R23 ' N

S program was carried on in heated buildings. Mr. Speaker, I say to the hon. gentleman, unless he is going to stand up and say to this Government and say to the people in the Province, Look, do not take the resources out of Labrador, then the best thing he can do today is get up, bow to the Speaker, submit his resignation from that party and sit with a party that has a commitment to Labrador. SOME FION. MEMBERS: Not here. No, not with us. MR. WARREN: Oh yes. I would have no problem with it, Mr.

Speaker, because I would think, given three days on this side of the House, he will understand that we are concerned about Labrador. All my colleagues understand, But all the hon, gentleman wanted to do was lambaste Ottawa, or the Federal Tory Party in Ottawa. It is true! Mr. Speaker, let me say one more thing to the hon. gentleman. It was his buddy, Mr. Bill Rompkey, when Mr. Rompkey was in Cabinet, who was asked by the Combined Councils of Labrador to make changes to the IJIC regulations His own buddy, Mr. Rompkey, was asked to make changes to the (JIC regulations, and he was a Member of Cabinet at the time.

And now Mr. Rompkey is saying it is all the Tory' s fault. Your colleague,. your friend, your bosom pal had the opportunity to do it. Do you know what is happening now? MR.. WARREN: Oh, yes,I know what is happening now, what the Minister is already doing with the turbot oil Nain. That is what is happening. Mr. Speaker, let me say to the hon. gentleman, before you open your mouth, make sure you have the facts. It is unfortunate that a lot of times you put your foot in your mouth because you do not have the facts. Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries did not give the real facts in this House this afternoon, and I want to give. notice MR. BAKER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker, MR, SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Speaker, I let it go before simply because I thought it was inadvertent on his part and so on, but it is a well accepted practice, and I can quote fromi Beauchesne, paragraph 494, that statements by Members respecting themselves and parti cularly within their own knowledge must be accepted. r h e hon.

Member continually indicates or is trying to indicate that the Minister of Fisheries is not telling the truth, and .1 think he should withdraw that. MR._SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS: I just want to rriake a point on the point of order. Obviously, Mr. Speaker, if a Member comes into information that is contrary ' to information presented ' to this House by a Minister of the Crown, and a Member oft he Cabi net, w h a t fl 1-24 November 27, 1989 Vol XLI No. 41 R24

[1 I . recourse does the Member have? What recourse does the President of the council suggest the Member take? The Member has indicated, and perhaps he did not word it in a proper parliamentary way, although he said at the outset that he did not want to say anything unparliamentary - he said that right at the outset - MR.BAKER: (Inaudible) MR._SIMMS: He said that the information he has received is contrary to the information the Minister of Fisheries gave today. Clearly, in his view that is misrepresentation of the facts, from the information he has since received, So, Mr.

Speaker,- there has to be some kind of consideration given to the context, and nobody raised the problem or the matter before. The Member was eloquently explaining his position, and I think that is fair ball, MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader. MR. BAKER; Further on that point of order, Mr. Speaker, I agree with part of what the Opposition House Leader said, There is room for disputing the facts amongst hon. Members - The proper course for hon. Members to take would be to simply present h i s facts and indicate that they differ from the facts presented by the hon. Minister.

It is not proper, and as I indicated to the Opposition House Leader, I let it go because,., at first I thought it was just an inadvertent slip, but the Member seems to he persisting in that approach so if he wants to state his facts, fine. MR. SPEAKER: I request the hon. Member, if he has facts to present that refute the things that were said by the Minister, I suggest - that he present them, but I would also ask him to withdraw some of his comments MR. WARREN: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I do not know what comments you want me to withdraw but if there are any unparliamentary comments that I made I kindly withdraw them. At the same time, Mr. Speaker, I want to give notice that tomorrow, once. I see the answer from Hansard that the Minister gave today, I just want to give notice that I will he on tomorrow, when I receive the answers, quite possibly getting up on a point of privilege of a Minister, in this House, misleading this House. Mi", Speaker, I will say this in closing, I have another coirimnitment on behalf of the Labrador people and I will say this, Mr.

Speaker, I only wis h that the Member for Eagle River would continue to put his foot in his mouth, as he has been doing this afternoon in particular, what he is saying and what the Minister is saying does not coincide. With that, Mr. Speaker, I k than you very much - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development. MR. FUREY Mr. Speaker, I was n o t going - to join t h i s debate hut I was provoked viciously by the depths of the i nt to 1 1 e.c t u a 1 a r g u inc i-i t L25 November 27, 1989 vol XLI No. 41 R25

S coming across from the other side. If you listened attentively to the arguments put forward by the hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains and you examine what he said, Mr. Speaker, all it was, was an examination of his credibility versus the credibility of the Member for Eagle River.' Mr. Speaker, I do not think the Member for Eagle River has anything to be ashamed of, he is a fine young Member, he has been exemplary in his duties and when we stack his credibility up against the Member for Torngat, Mr. Speaker, he is immeasurably, head and shoulders, beyond that particular Member Mr.

Speaker, in the short six months, let us examine the record, I have never yet in the six short months that I have seen the hon. Member for Eagle River operate as a Member, watch him walk his muddy dirty boots into the flag of Labrador, not that Member, Mr. Speaker, not that Member, I have never seen him walk that flag into the floor. Mr.Speaker, in the short time that he has been here I have not seen him spend thousands and thousands of dollars flicking around the country and the world on behalf of the Government wasting public taxpayers money. He has not done that, Mr.

Speaker, in the short time that he has been here, I have not seen him construct a hundred thousand dollar personal toilet for himself, Mr. Speaker, no, I have not seen that. What have I seen, I have s e e n him represent the Coast of Labrador in a very dignified way and as a spokesman for the Government in Goose Bay the other night, he was exemplary and I have already had phone calls from people up therc., not partisan people telling inc that he was not up there.

And what dad he bring on behalf of the Government, did he bring a cucumber house to Labrador, did he bring pipe dreams to Labrador or does he bring truth, honesty and dignity to Labrador. AN HON. MEMBER: What about the ferry to Bonne Bay? MR. FUREY: The ferry to Bonne Bay: I aiR very proud about returning the Ferry to Bonne Bay that that Government removed. It was a ridiculous move when you took it, I told you so, but you turned into partisan animals and removed it anyway at the expense of jobs on the south side of Bonne Bay. We will talk about that in a minute.

But what did he bring, what did he bring to Labrador? I understand t h e hon. Member for Eagle R i v e r brought a thirtyfive thousand dollar commitment from this Government to the combined councils of Labrador, when the previous Government only gave them $15,000, so he is to be commended on that announcement as well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! So, Mr. Speaker, what we saw for five short minutes from the hon. Member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) was a simple regurgitation, a vicious blur of verbal vomit tossed across this side of the House. That is all it was . Strip it down a n d look at. it.

What was it? It was asking, is the hon. Member for, Eagle River credible? Any reasonable, fair—minded person knows that in the six short months he has been here he has b e e n an absolute, superb, dignified, honorable, wonderful, Member for Labrador that we, on this side, are. very proud of, Mr. Speaker. . S L25 November 27, 1989 Vol XLI No. 41 R26

• SOME HON. MEMBERS: Thank you. Hear, hear! C MS_VERGE: The hon. Member is blushing. MR. FUREY: Nell, if the hon. Member is blushing it is significant and signifies his deep humility. MR. TOBIN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: Mr, Speaker, I do not know what is happening here. I have been in the House for eight years and it is the first time that I have seen a Member having to stand up and defend another one. I suggest to the Minister of Development that if he has that type of a problem with the Member for Eagle River (Mr.

Dumaresque) that he talk to him outside the House and not in here. You are the fellow that has the confidence problem to get on like that. MR. KELLAND A point of ;rder, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER There is no point of order. The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands Are you on another point of order or speaking to this one? MR. KELLAND Mr. Speaker, I was going to respond to the point oF order raised by the Member but since there is no point of oi 'der, as is frequently the case, I rest with your j udgement L27 November 27, 1989 Vol XLI MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development. MR. FUREY: Mr.

Speaker, is that not typical of the hon. Member, to get up and make that kind of a comment, then run out of the House and not stick around? If the hon. Member could give us living proof of its intellect we could deterriLine that his intellectual dis hone sty was pretty prevalent a few minutes ago. Mr. Speaker, the whole dEibate and why I was provoked to rise From my seat was not in defence of ..he. hon. Member for Eagle River, he is very capable of defending himself. When you get that kind of foolishness, petty drivel and diatribe coining From an hon.

Member who is supposed to be here passing out the concerns honorably, honestly, and in . a dignified fashion for his District. When you get that kind of drivel and diatribe it provokes you to stand in the House and call to the attention of all hon. Members that we all have a job here. The job here is not to cast aspersions on other Members, or to mudsiing From one side of the House to the other, that is not. the job at all .. If the hon. Member wants to say something he should move to his own seat and have something to say. I do not mind sitting down and listening to the hon.

Member if he has something intelligent: to ofFer to the debate. If he has something intelligent to offer to the debate we are perfectly willing to l:i.sten to him. Mr. Speaker, what we are saying is that this Government is doing all in its power, given the very No. 41 R27

S difficult circumstances that we find outselves in, given that a Federal Conservative Government for the last five, six, or seven years, however long we have been crucified by that crowd in Ottawa, have misjudged and miscalculated viciously the cod quotas, We are a little Province and we find ourselves inheriting this position so we are doing everything in a constructive way to try to deal with this problem and deal with it in a logical, decent, and mature fashion. Full marks, Mr.

Speaker, ought to go to the Minister of Fisheries and his Committee for the tremendous job they have done, not just laying out the problem, not just laying out possible solutions, but restraining themselves from being taken in by the foolish diatribe that comes daily from across the House, people who want to inflame the situation rather than deal with it in a mature and reasonable fashion, rather than dealing with it in the Newfoundland way, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON, MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS Mr.

Speaker, I want to try to bring the debate back to what we are debating, which is the legislation respecting the Department of Fisheries, Bill No, 26 Mr.

Spea cer, the Bill itself, of course, simply revises and replaces the Department of Fisheries Act, 1973 and also trans f er s to the new Departmental Act the powers, function and author i ty of the Fishing Industry Advisory Board, which is presently contained in the Fishing Industry Advisory Board Act, its own Act, 1975, That is the topic we are discussing and throughout this whole debate over the lastf ew days Your Honour has very kindly allowed Members to - I suppose it could be argued that it was straying somewhat, however for the most part most Members, on both sides of the House, took advantage of this piece of legislation to talk about the fishery, the Fishermen's Response Program, a n d so on.

I think that is probably fair and reasonable on Your Honour' s part to allow that kind of leverage, but, Mr. Speaker, I have to say while listening to the Minister of Development who just spoke in this debate and tried to portray the image of the Great Defender of a Member on that side of the House, the Member for Eagle River (Mr. Dumaresque), when we all know, Mr. Speaker, the Member for Eagle River is quite capable of defending himself, and I doubt very much if he needs the Minister of Development (Mr. Furey) to get up and try to defend him. I think the Member for Eagle River was embarrassed.

I want to follow up on what the Member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) said . The Member for Torngat Mountains, despite the fact that he attacked the Member , for Eagle River - I mean, that is fair, ball; he did not say anything nasty about the hon. Member, I do not believe, but he did attack him about his position, or representations he made, or whatever. The Member for Torngat Mountains did say he would.welcome the Member for Eagle River over on this side oft he House, should he decide to come. And that would be a matter that would have to coirie under some discussion, no doubt.

S S L28 November 27, 1989 Vol XLI No. 41

. . My experience with the Member for Eagle River is virtually the same. The Member for Eagle River, I find, is a very conscientious Member. There is no question about it. He works very hard on behalf of his constituents. And the Hon. the Member for Eagle River is quite capable, as I said, of defending any attacks that come upon him.

And when I hear the Minister of Development, of all Members, by the way - of all Members in this House, for the benefit of the newer Members of all the Members whor would have the gall to get up in this House and attack another individual as he just did, attacking the Member for Torngat Mountains for ten minutes, and throughout the entire attack, kept saying we should bring this discussion back to a reasonable level, use honesty and intellect and all that kind of thing, in debate. The Minister of Development did not do it once. He spent ten minutes - AN HON. MEMBER What did he say? MR.

SIMMS The same pious Minister, Mr. Speaker, talked about vicious vomit, talks about partisan animals full of nastiness, full of vindictiveness - himself, no question about it - talked about intellectual dishonesty, talked about diatribe, talked about mudslinging. My god, Mr. Speaker, since this House opened in June, I have not heard one Member use all of those nasty terms, many of them unparliamentary, by the way. Nobody raised a point of order, but Your Honour clearly could have called him to order when he called Members on this side partisan animals. That is clearly unparliamentary.

It is not, in my own view, very nice language for a L29 November 27, 1989 Vol XLI Minister oF the Crown to be using. So I say, Mr. Speaker, what gall for this particular Member, the Minister of Development! What gall! So pious! So holier—than—thou, Mr. Speaker! But you can see right through him, I say to you, Mr. Speaker, and the people of the Province can see right through him. I am not surprised he does not participate in debate. But that is all I want to say. I want to say what he said. That is basically what I am doing.

It 1s not my approach, usually, to attack other Members or talk viciously about them, but I did not like what the Minister of Development did he'e a moment ago, q u e s t ion in g the i n tell e c Li a 1 ability of another Member of the House and all the rest of it. I think that is very, very unbecoming of a Minister OF the Crown, to say the least. Let us talk briefly about some of the comments that have been made in the House in this particular debate.

The Member For Eagle River spent most of his time in the debate, I guess, talking about the importance of the fishery to his area, the Labrador area, particularly, the coast. of Labrador. And it was interesting to hear him attack t h e Federal Government with respect to its Fishermen's Response Program. He talked about the nee.d for changes in that program, and we agree.

Of course, we have been raising it in the House ourselves for the last couple of weeks, so we are comforted somewhat in hearing the Member For Eagle River finally agree with what we are saying, and hopefully, he c a n put some pressure on the Minister of Fisheries an.d others in that Government opposite, to get after the Federal Government to make No . 41 R29 .

. those changes which are very, very necessary, no question about it. But, the other important point which he neglected to mention publicly in this Legislature, and a point which I believe he feels dearly about, is the point we have been raising on this side, Mr. Speaker. In the past four or five years a fisheries response program was always developed to help people get enough weeks work so they could have a reasonable income throughout the winter months or those months when the fishery was not successful.

In those past four or five years, the Provincial Government of the day, which happened to be ours, always participated and had an add—on to the Fishery Response Program put forward by the Federal Government. What we have been trying to ascertain, or at least we have been trying to pressure the Provincial Government into doing is exactly that. We know there is a problem. It is admitted to now. The Federal Members on the Liberal side, up in the louse of Commons, are here today holding a press conference.

Talking about the disastrous fishery season and the terrible tragedy that many people in this Province are facing because of that. That is precisely what the Member for Eagle River just finished saying, and something that we have been saying for the last two weeks. But the Provincial Government has a responsibility here as well. What is the Provincial Government going to do to help those people who, under the present guidelines, cannot participate in that program? That is the problem.

We have been asking the Minister of Fisheries, we have been asking the Miniter of Employment and Labour Relations, what it is that they intend to do to try and help those people who are suffering? I am not sure, but I cannot believe for a moment that Members opposite do not realize, appreciate and understand the seriousness of the problem, because I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, it is serious. It is very serious. Those people who cannot qualify under that program have no income, they have nothing to put bread on the table. So Mr.

Speaker the Provincial Government, I think, should not he dilly dallying, they should not be waiting for this, waiting for, that, to see what transpires. I think they should jump in, show the people of the Province their concern and their interest and put forth their own program to help those people who cannot . help themselves, Mr. Speaker. That is the point of the debate thus far. Although it strayed a bit from the topic of the Bill itself. That has been the essence OF the debate and the Member for Eagle River, I think, supported us in what we had to say.

We support him in what he had to say with respect to the Fishery Response Program. We have no problem supporting him, that is what we have been trying to do for the last two 4eeks. I would say to him that he should put some pressure on his own Government in caucus meetings or whatever to get his own Government to do something to help those people on t h e Labrador coast as well as people all over the r e s t of the Province. That was the whole essence of this debate, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker what the Member for Torngat Mountains was aitempting to do in his brief comments today on this Bill was to bring this to S . . L30 November 27, 1989 Vol. XLI No. 41 R30

the attention of the House, and the Government House Leader raised a point of order with respect to it, today in Question Period, when he asked the Minister of Fisheries a question. The Minister of Fisheries responded, no doubt he responded with the information that was provided to him quickly by his officials. I have no doubt about that, but, of course, ultimately the Minister of Fisheries has to take responsibility for whether or not the answer is accurate.

All the Member for Torngat Mountains was saying is that subsequent to his answer, he checked it out with a fish plant in Labrador, and he was told that in fact what happened was that an official from the Department of Fisheries, did call the fish plant in Labrador, did say they had some fish, do you want it? This fisheries official was then asked, what are the details? And the fisheries official apparently was supposed to get back to them with the details, but never did. Subsequently, we understand and learn, the fish actually was landed over in St.

Anthony, Now if that is true, then obviously the information that the Minister provided was incorrect, If it is incorrect, I am sure the Minister of Fisheries is man enough to get up in the House tomorrow or later on this afternoon, if he gets a chance, and say, 'I subsequently checked. and the information was incorrect and I apologize if I did mislead the louse in any way, shape or form, it was certainly not deliberate, That is what you have to do, as hon. Members in this House. The same hon. Members that the Minister of Development talked about.

People get up in the House they have to talk with honesty and give the information L31 November 27, 1989 Vol. XLI to the Members of the Opposition who asked. But it has to he accurate information.. So I say to the M i n i s t e r of Fisheries hopefully he has called his officials again and said, 'Here look, the Member for Torngat Mountains said this is what transpired with respect to o n e plant. what is going on? Can you get back and check it out again?

And then the Minister of Fisheries, when he closes the debate in the next few d a y s on this particular piece of legislation, will be able, hopefully, to give an accurate picture of what transpired. Now, Mr. Speaker, one of the main reasons I wanted to stand for a few minutes today is to deal with - DR.KITCHEN: Sit down. MR. SIMMS: I say to the Minister of Finance, I will not sit down, I will stay standing. The Minister of Finance is hardly the one in this House that would urge people to sit down, simply because he obviously wants everybody to follow his example and stay in his seat.

So I intend to express my views and opinions, as everybody is entitled to do, who are elected to this House. But I want to address what the Member for Exploits s a i d in the debate, I guess it was on Thursday or Friday, when he talked about a resolution that was pas se.d in t.his Legislature some time ago, the. a].l—plants—open resolution . The Member for Exploits raised through the back door a point of order. He did not raise a point oV order specifically, he just addressed throughout his comments this No. 41 nI .

issue, and he asked the Speaker to have a look at it. Well, the Speaker does not have a look at things when Members speak in debate? the Speaker would respond to points of order or points of privilege, And he talked about the resolution that was passed in this Legislature,- I am sorry, defeated in this Legislature November 15, the all—plants—open policy as we called it, and it is an extraction from the resolution itself. And the Member for Exploits was trying to make a very weak argument, I thought, about

preambles not being a part of a resolution. That is what he was arguing,

preambles are not a part of a resolution. Well, it is probably because of the fact that he is inexperienced, he is a new Member, and he is not familiar with legislatures and parliamentary procedures in legislatures, and so on, but, I say to him, if he had done a bit of research before he made those comments, then he would have avoided making a fool of himself with respect to this particular point. Because there are numerous examples, many, many examples in Hansards from days gone by where Members on that side of the House put forth amendments to amend

preambles of resolutions on Private Members Day. Why would they bother to do that if

preambles were not part of the resolutions? That is point number one. Point number two is, breach of order, is really an

interpretation by the Speaker to be put on a breach of order, rules of procedure. So, that is not the appropriate mechanism. It must be dealt with immediately, as my friend the Minister of Development discussed briefly the other, day. It has to he dealt with immediately. It was not. It was not even raised as a point of order. Mr. Speaker, the most interesting thing I found in researching this particular issue is that Beauchesne makes several references, either under points of order or points of privilege.

One. 'Statements made outside the House are not privileged questions.' The circulation of this resolution was made outside. the House, so it is not an unparliamentary practice, not a breach of privilege or anything of that nature. But the most telling part, and here is what I want to quote for the Member for Exploits so that he will know the answer to this question when he talks about whether

preambles are part OF a resolution, Sir Ers kine May, which is a well known parliamentary reference, on page 393, u n d e r the

section Modification Of Resolutions says in part, and this is the important part for the Member for Exploits, ' A motion modifying a resolution of the same session by omitting or altering subsidiary portions of it . . ' the subsidiary portions of it are the

preambles, AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. SIMMS: Oh, yes, I verified this with the House of Commons Clerk . The House of Commons Clerk is much more of an authority than the Member for , Exploits. It says 'omttinq or altering subsidiary portions of it is in order, therefore' -- and that is as the Clerk of the House of Commons says - 'that is the

preamble. ' Obviously t.he.

preamble is part of the resolution, I mean, it is an . . 1_32 November 27, 1989 Vol XLI No. 41 R32

C accepted practice; it is very weak to argue that it is not. I had to make that point, Mr. Speaker, because somehow the Member for Exploits was trying to suggest that

preambles are not part of the resolution, and that is not the case. I would suggest to him that he is treading on dangerous ground if he intends to try to change all that, Now, Mr. Speaker, the only other thing I want to say about the resolution is this: When this copy of the resolution was circulated to some people around the Province to let them know the results, it essentially took quotations directly from Hansard, and that is most acceptable. That is most acceptable, because the resolution itself was quoted verbatim. Everything in the resolution, the

preamble and the resolve part, was quoted verbatim and then Hansard's record - MR.FUREY: (Inaudible) MR. SIMMS: And the Minister of Development just gave a great speech, attacking members over here for the way they are debating. He continuously interrupts, Mr. Speaker. I thought he was supposed to show Members on that side how you are supposed to perform. The other thing in Hansard, Mr. Speaker, is the names of those members who voted against the resolution. Now, that is all that is here, the resolution itself and where does your, member stand?

All those against, and they are all listed, members of the Government side .Now, people can read People are not stupid. They are not too green to burn, as members 123 November 27, 1989 Uol XLI opposite would suggest from time to time. It is there. Here is the resolution. It is vital that any Government response to this crisis recognizes the necessity to adopt an all—plants—open policy. In part that is what it says. Who voted against it? All the Government members who were here in the House that day. They were all there. Mr. Speaker, I can understand why members opposite would want to try to wiggle out of it.

I can clearly understand why they would try to wiggle out of it, but I think in all honesty, using intellectual honesty, that it would be very hard for them to wiggle out of it, because it is there in black and white, clear as a bell. Now, members will have to go out and explain to their constituents why, and that is fair ball. That is acceptable. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh. oh! MR. SIMMS: It is clear that the Premier is away today, because there are all ktnds of interruptions a n d interjections, and is it not great to see. I want to say this to the member for Mount Scio - Bell Island.

The member for Mount Scio - Bell Island, as have other members I presume, but maybe they have not been, the member for Mount Scio - Bell Island has been tagged by the Premier as the private M e m b e r on the G o v e r n m e n t side to go around and heat the Meech Lake Accord to death, a n d I can assure you, Mr. Speaker, he i.s doing precisely that. We he.ard of his speech down in Cavendish, and then we heard reports oF a speech he gave this weekend at the St. Andrew's Ball; he spoke for twenty minutes on the Meech Lake Accord No. 41 R33 .

. at the St. Andrew's Bail. And, Mr. Speaker, from all the reports we have been receiving from Cavendish, and from the group who went to the St. Andrew's Ball, all I can say, on this side of the House, is that we would encourage the Premier to continue using as his representative the member for, Mount Scio - Bell Island. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! - MR. SIMMS: We would urge him strongly to continue it, because the more often he speaks the better it is.

We, of course, will have much more to say about that as time goes on and in future debates, including some of the misrepresentations the hon, member is making in these speechs outside the House. I want to make those few points. MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) MR. SIMMS: My friend for Windsor - Buchans just cannot get over the fact that I get coverage in The Advertiser and he cannot get any. God, is he miFfed about that! Every day I see him its, 'God, you are in The Advertiser again. You are in The Advertiser again. The Minister of Education is in The Advertiser today, or Thursday or whatever.

The Minister of Justice will be in next Thursday, and, Mr. Speaker, the Member for Exploits will be in, no doubt, announcing that he has been twinned: He has been asked to act on behalf of the Government For the people of Grand Falls , and I say to him I hope he can get the water treatment plant going, I hope he can get the $1 million to serve the Exploits Valley region, including his district and his district, I hope he can get the courthouse open quickly, and I hope he can get all the other problems solved. MR.FLIGHT: Who made them? MR._SIMMS: They were not made by this Member, Mr. Speaker.

They were worked on by this Member, supported by this Member, delivered by this Member, but cancelled by the Government opposite and Members on that side, and the Member for Windsor - Buchans, as well as the Member for Exploits, should hang their heads in shame. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member of Environmcmt and Lands. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will not take a whole lot of the time of the House, but I would like to flake a Few comments I apologize, Mr.

Speaker, for not being here for the opening of the House this afternoon, but I was o u t s ide on a no t lie r in i n i s t e r i. a 1 commitment, defending democracy, as this side does, and reassuring the people and reiterating to the people that we are indeed under a regime of fairness and balance, that we are an open form of Government in all questions, whether it is fisheries or , some other question, any other , question, and I was happy to get back in before this debate concluded so I could add a few corrurients It is indeed correct to say, as the Member for Tornyat Mountains indicated, I understand from my colleagues, that he attended part of the recent Combined Councils of Labrador Conference in Happy .

L34 November 27, 1989 Vol XLI No, 41 R34

r r Ualley, Goose Bay over the past week, and I say part because the lion. Member from Torngat Mountains was not able to spend the whole time at the Conference and had to leave early. Conversely, my colleague, the Member for Eagle River, spent the entire time at the Conference and, in his breaks and opportunities, arranged meetings with my colleague the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, with myself, and with the Federal Member, who also attended the entire Conference on behalf of his constituents and did a very fine job.

In the event the Member for Torngat Mountains may have inadvertently misled the House with information relating to the Member for Eagle River, let me put the record straight.

In the first part, the hon. the Member for Eagle River was at the Combined Councils of Labrador Conference and annual general meeting in his own right as one of the four Labrador MHAs and, secondly, he was asked by the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation to represent hun at the Conference and to respond to questions that may have been put to the Minister if he had been there himself, and I must say my colleague for Eagle River did a very fine job on the question of transportation, an excellent job, and at no time, at no time Mr.

Speaker, did he ever utter the words that he was there to represent all of Government and all the Ministers.

I was there for, the entire Conference, which is more than the Member for Torngat Mountains can say, because he was not, and at no time did he ever indicate or give any sort of an utterance like that. what any Member of our backbenches can say, is that we have such quality in our backbenches, on occasion we can call on any of our Members, because of their dedication, their quality and their merit, to represent any Cabinet Minister at any occasion when the Minister himself or herself cannot attend, And they have exclusively and without exception done an outstanding job, and we as Cabinet Ministers are very proud of the efforts they have made on our behalf.

I can say that I can think of three Members I have called upon occasionally to represent me, including the Member for Eagle River, the Member for Lewisporte, I believe, Exploits as well, and probably one or two others. The Member for Placentia, who is not here right , at the moment, he also represented me and did a fantastic job. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

KELLAND He represented me in Labrador West, and represented the Government, and did an outstahding job, I would say, based on my six or seven months experience as a CabinetS Minister, that we have more depth in our backbenches than I ever witnessed in the front benches of the former. Admi ni s tra tio n, without doubt, without question. SOMEHON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.TOBIN: I__ would go along with that. You have more depth in your backbenches than you have in your Cabinet. What he did say, in effect, and MR.KELLAND: . 135 November 27, 1989 Uol XLI No. 41 . R35

. Sounds like sour grapes. The interesting thing about the Combined Councils Conference, Mr. Speaker, and I am sure it would be of interest to all hon. Members, the fisheries, obviously, along the coast of Labrador is a big issue, as it is in Newfoundland, and I do not particularly recall in any way that would be significant to me, or that I would notice, that the Member for Torngat Mountains ever raised the issue during the Combined Councils Conference. I do not think he ever said the word fish. Nor did he ever flap a fin, for that matter.

I do not recall him saying anything of any significance to do with the fishery - I am so pleased he is back in the House so he can hear this - but what he did do, his contribution that I can recall, was just before he left the Conference a bit early because of another commitment, he tabled for the Conference people a copy of some questions he had raised with the hon. The Premier last week in the House of Assembly to do with standardization of utility rates and so on, and he tabled a copy, obviously, of the Premier's answers . Now, that was his contribution to the Conference, as I recall it.

MR._WARREN: And it was a good one. MR. KELLAND: And it was a good one. As the Member is uttering from his seat now, it was a good one. It was a good point to bring up, because what he did say, Mr. Speaker, was that, 'I am providing copies of my questions to the hon. the Premier and a copy of the Premier's answers' - nothing really to do with Fisheries, by the way. He said, 'I th ink the Premier because he gave me good answers, and I support the Premier's answers.' I am sure the hon. Member for Eagle River will recall the Member saying that.

Now, having said that, let me quote from Hansard of Thursday, November 23, page 16, one of the Premier's answers. I mean, the Member for Tor-ngat Mountains just about fell over himself in praising the answers he received from the hon. the Premier. One of the answers is as follows, "That is an action that we took that the former Government did not take. We saw to it that there were equalized rates." Now in supporting the Premier's answers and lauding the Premier' s answers and praising, them in every possible way, the hon.

Member for Torngat Mountains is in a position to be against what the former Administration was doing or was perpetrating on the people of Newfoundland a n d Labrador. I am very pleased - MR. TOBIN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A- pojnt of order, t h e. hon. t h e. Member for Burin - Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: We are having difficulty hearing the hon. Minister wit.h the. conferences taking place there in the corridor. If they are going to continue to talk, I suggest they go outside the House. MR.SPEAKER: Order, please! There is no point or order. The hon. the Minister oF .

L 3 6 November 27, 1989 vol XLI No. 41 R36

n' Environment and Lands. MR. KELLAND: Obviously, from the actions of the Member for Burin - Placentia West, he reaffirms the fact that insecurity is a fact of life. Though he cannot hear me, we do not even need the microphones really, being very close to each other. Thank you for the ruling. Mr. Speaker, that is fine. I do not believe it was a point of order either. I want to say something about a comment made by the hon. the Opposition House Leader. He was talking about attacks back and forth.

He said, in essence, the attack by the Member for Torngat Mountains on the Member for Eagle River was totally acceptable no matter how vilifying it was, no matter how degrading it may have been, but a much milder, more responsible response from the hon. the Minister of Development was not acceptable. Now, I suggest hon. Members opposite have a terrible double standard, where you do not do what I do, you have to do what I say' By the way, that is the way they ran the former Administration and that is why they are no longer the Administration, I would like to suggest.

On the question of fisheries, as it was raised at the Combined Councils of Labrador Conference, it was an issue that was expressed by a lot of people who were representing fishing communities They addressed the question to our Federal Member representing Labrador, to the hon. Member, for Eagle River who has a fishing constituency, and even to mc' .My L37 November 27, 1989 Uol XLI constituency is not generally considered to he a fishing constituency, but there are quite a few people who live in Happy Valley - Goose Bay, and in my riding in the winter, who fish on the coast of Labrador in the summertime.

But nowhere that I can recall at the session I was in was the question ever put to the Member for Torngat Mountains, nor did he ever offer any information or expression of his feelings on fishery. The single biggest issue in his riding today, and he did not raise the point, he did not answer a question, he did not ask a question, nor did he make a comment in my hearing. So for him to come into the House following that Conference, w h i c h he partly attended, and raise the issue of how well the hon. t h e Member for Eagle River represented his riding, I think there is absolutely no comparison.

I have already clearly stated that the Eagle River representative was there for the entire Conference.; the hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains spent a very short- t-.ime there, barely opened his mouth except in praise of the hon. the Premier, and then leFt. I would not be personal. I would not sink to the depths of - MR.__WARREN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains MR, WARREN Mr. Speaker, again I know I cannot say it, but the hon. gent].erriari is misleading the House. The reason I say that is that at - the Combined No. 41 R37

11 L Councils Conference I was asked to speak, and I did speak, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. MR.WARREN: He is misleading the House. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands. MR.KELLAND: Mr. Speaker, to clarify the point, I did not say the Member did not speak. I said, I do not recall hearing him say he raised any issues or any points about the fishery, which is the biggest single issue in his district. MR. WARREN: You were not there half the time you were out drinking coffee. MR. KELLAND: Mr, Speaker, I would like you to call for order. If the hon.

Member wishes to speak afterwards, it is fine by me. I will listen to him in apt and rapt attention. Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member is obviously quite sensitive about this issue, simply because he did not, in my hearing, raise the issue of the fishery. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh. oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. KELLAND: He may have done it when I was not there, but I was there on Friday, Saturday, Saturday evening and a good part OF Sunday, up to noon.

My colleague, the hon. the Member for Eagle River, was there the entire Conference, to my knowledge, except when he arr&nged short meetings with his constituents, with Ministers and other officials, as they requested. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order! I have asked hon. Members on both sides if they will give the Member speaking an opportunity to be heard. It is difficult to hear up here, so I am sure Members down at the back are having problems. I ask you extend that courtesy to the Member who is speaking. The hon. the Minister of Lands and Environment. MR.KELLAND: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. Some day, Mr. Speaker, someone will get that name right, or close to right, but thank you for recognizing me, and for . your ruling You know, I do not want to he personal; far be it from inc to ever he - personal about any Member. Every Member , is in here by right of choice of the people, a n d we should not malign each other. It is improper, it. is unparliamentary. I would never, never, ever deign •to vilify another Member. If facts clearly stated sometimes hurt, as they say in some places , iheins the breaks.

That is the way it is But to try to get a liLtle more hurriourous and not appear to he on the attack, because..I.m not on an attack, I am simply making a po-i nt or two: There was an old joke circulating around the House of Assembly in the last session, Mr. r . L38 November 27, 1989 Vol. XLI No. 41 R38

r Speaker, that is maybe worth repeating. When the hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains had his Tory awakening, as he called it in the newspaper, and left the Liberal side to go to the Government side for reasons known to himself, the joke around Confederation Building at the time was that when the hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains left the Liberals to join the Tories, he raised the average IQ of both sides. Ten seconds to think about that one. That is not an original of mine.

Actually it is something we heard around the building quite a bit and had the odd laugh about, but it is not intended to be personal, against the hon. Member. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame! Shame! MR. KELLAND: I am pleased to see hon. Members opposite have their sixty—second delay working. The boys on this side knew what I was talking about. Anyway, the question of the Fishery, Mr. Speaker, is a very serious one, and it was brought home, at least by some people., at the Combined Councils Conference.

The thought that I expressed to those people I met with from fishing communities when they raised the issue of the seriousness of the fishery, and the state the fishery has been allowed to deteriorate to by the Tory Government in Ottawa, is that I felt, and I still do feel, that active and good representation of their concerns is being made by my colleague the hon. Member for Eagle River (Mr. Dumerasque) and certainly by other Members on this side of the House, such as the Minister of Social Services (Mr.

Efford) , the Member for Port de Grave, and many others who have spoken on the subject over, a period of time and not just this session. I have absolute confidence in the Minister of Fisheries to handle the situation as it should be handled, and when decisions are made with respect to the fishery, and when we can have imput and influence, the Minister is possibly, more than possibly, without a doubt, if you compare predecessors, the most competent person to represent our views at whichever level he has to, I have no doubt and no hesitation in saying that whatsoever. MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible) MR.

KELLAND: The sad part about the exchanges that go on - some are in fun and some can be cutting, of course. I often recall the hon ... Opposition House Leader who used to talk about, do not complain to us, Mr. Speaker, it is just the ordinary cut and thrust of debate. I think what we have seen, now that they have been disposed and are no longer in power, is that cut and thrust has become cuss and threat, which more accurately describes what they do.

I would suggest one thing to the Opposi t:ion House Leader, that if he hangs his employability on his belief that he is a parliamentary strategist, then I can sincerely extend the hope that he seeks other employment. Thank you, very much, Mr. Speaker MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin -. Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: Thank you, very much, Mr. Speaker. I would like to have a Ecu, words r 1-39 November 27, 1989 vol XLI No. 41 R39

to say on this Bill. I think this is a very important piece of legislation to come before the House of Assembly, namely to debate a Bill as it relates to the fisheries of this Province. I think we should - MR. WALSH: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Mount Scio Bell Island. MR. WALSH: I stand on a point of order, but possibly a point of information is what I want. Is this the second time that this hon, gentleman is speaking to this particular Bill? MR. SPEAKER: The Chair will take some advice on this. I do not recall if the hon. Member spoke on this Bill. Is it that hon.

Members can speak only once? AN HON. MEMBER: Correct. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fishcries. If he speaks now he closes the debate. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! R N. CARTER: There is one thing I enjoy about being Minister of Fisheries and that is that I get so much help from so many people, and so much advice from so many people, I suppose most Newfoundlanders, whether they are sitting in the House of Assembly, or anywhere else, are pretty well all experts when it comes to dealing with matters pertaining to the fishery, and of course the House of Assembly is no exception.

I have listened with some interest to some of the comments coming from the other side, some of which have made sense and some have made probably less than good sense. We have heard some comments, Mr. Speaker, about the Federal Response Program, some criticism from the other side as to just how effective, or otherwise, the program is in being able to respond to the needs of the people that are affected this year by a poor fishery. I have had a survey conducted, Mr. Speaker, by the Director of Field Services, acting with the Department of Fisheries, and I can now give the House some of the findings of that survey.

It appears that on the basis of the survey conducted by this gentleman that there are approximately 1100 plant workers and fishermen. unable to qualify for t h e program within the effected areas around the Province. Labrador 110 people Northern Peninsula and the Straits area - 300, North East Coast - 250, Bonavista, Trinity 110 people, the Avalon Peninsula -. 200, the South Coast 125, the South West Coast -. 100, for , a total of 1,100 peopleS., according to our information, who are unable to qualify under the existing criteria in various parts of t h e Province.

My report here s a y s these are preliminary figures only and could increase as more projects get under way. It is estimated by our staFf that more than 80 per cent oft his total is made up of part—time plant workers and part—time fishermen. I repeat 80 p e r cent of t h e 1, 100 people who are unable to qualify are made up of part—time plant workrs and part—time fishermen. The report goes on to say that the remaining numbers include full time . . 1-40 November 27, 1989 Vol XLI No. 41 R10

. ci: fishermen, S to 10 percent, new entrants into the fishery and new entrants into the processing sector. So of the total amount, the total number of people who now do not qualify according to this report, S to 10 per cent are indeed full—time fishermen. It says a further consideration is a large number of individuals who worked on a project last season, worked for a few weeks this suminer in the fishing industry and now want to qualify for a project again. A more thorough assessment to firm up these figures will follow next week. So, Mr.

Speaker, this is the report undertaken by our chief field person, and I have every confidence in the accuracy of this report, and I now am quite willing, if need be., to table it in this House. Mr. Speaker, I do not think that anybody in the House would down—play the seriousness of the unemployment problem that we have in Newfoundland today. I think most Newfoundlanders will agree that given the fact that the present Government has only been in office now for seven months, we can hardly be expected to have all the answers to aN the problems that have been in the making now for the past ten or twelve years.

And I should remind the hon. Members Opposite, and I do not want to sound to political, but I think it has to be said, that the unemployment problem we are now facing, the problem that is causing a lot of concern in this Province on the part of Government, and I am sure the Opposition Members, and I am sure on the part of the people in Ottawa, again I repeat, it is brought about1 by and large, by virtue of the inability of the previous Administration to he able L41 November 27, 1989 Vol XLI to properly cope with the problem.

And I would submit to you, Your Honour, that maybe if the money that was spent on the cucumber operation in Mount Pearl, $20 million - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. W. CARTER: It needs to be said - $20 million that would have done a lot towards finding alternate sources of employment for our people, certainly in the fishing industry it would have. And I am sure the hon. Members Opposite, especially the hon. Member for Kilbride, regrets that that decision was made. When it appears that we are being blamed for the unemployment crisis that we have in this Province, then I think, Mr.

Speaker, that we have to remind the gentlemen Opposite that a lot of the problem, indeed most of the problem is of their making, not OF our making but of their making. Mr. Speaker, I remind t h e hon. House Leader that we are the Government, or course we are, and I sometimes wish that he. would remember that, and accept that fact, because I get the impression that the hon. gentleman sometimes is not willing to accept that he is on the opposite side now in Opposition, and that we have been given a mandate by the people of this Province to administer t h e. affairs of this Province at least for the next four years.

Mr. Speaker, like I said a moment ago, I am not down-- playing the importance of maybe some, changes to t h i s so called r e s p o n s e program, and I am not down playing the importance of the need for another program that, would accommodate people outside the No. 41 RI- i

. fishery who are trying to get in under this program, by the way, but are equal].y in need of assistance. To that end I have been invited to Ottawa on Wednesday by my Federal counterpart, the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, who wants to talk to me about matters concerning the fishery. I am not going to Ottawa with cap in hand looking for extra money or more money, because I am told, by the way, that the amount of money that has been voted for this Program will probably be more than will be needed to accommodate the people for whom it is intended. AN HON. MEMBER: Under the current guidelines (inaudible)? MR. N.

CARTER: Yes, under the current guidelines I mentioned earlier that there are, according to my report, 5 per cent to 10 per cent bona fide fishermen unable to qualify for this Program. I intend, when I go to Ottawa, to address that problem, if that is the case. Or it might be higher. If it is higher, I want to know from the Minister wftat can be done right away to modify the guidelines whereby these people can become part of the program. There is one thing we have to be careful of, Mr.

Speaker, and I ran up against it in the course of our regional meetings this past fall, when we had twelve meetings around the Province, listening to fishermen. One of the questions that we. put to the gathering at every meeting was, 'How do you Feel about make—work programs?' I can tell you now that in every case it was unanimous on the part of those in attendance that the fishermen in our Province do not like, indeed they do not want, the typical type of make—work programs they have been getting.

The reason, of course, for that is quite obvious: they tell me that maybe less than 10 per cenC of the total amount of money that has been allocated actually goes into the pockets of the fishermen themselves. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) fish plant workers. MR. N. CARTER: I am sure the fish plant workers benefit from it, but I was not speaking to fish plant workers, I was speaking to fishermen. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) No, let me repeat, Mr. Speaker. I said a moment ago that we had twelve meetings around the Province, well attended by