VOL. l PRELIMIN/o.RY t'NEDIT:E:O TRANSCRIPT HOCSE OF ASSEMBL~ FOR T!J..E l?EP.lOO: lO:OO a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, NOV"EHBER 16, !.979 !lO • .31

November 16, 1979 The House ~et at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: (SIMMS) Tape No. lll9 ow - l oraer, please! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: MR. L. THOMS: The hon. member for Grand Bank. Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Justice (Hr. Ottenheimer) 1 I would. like to ask the President of the couneil {Mr. Marshall} whether or not it has been determined yet whether or not the patient in the alleged incident in Waterford Hospital was a ward of the Justice Department or referred to the Waterford Hospital by the courts? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, I knov the Minister of Justice gave the undertaking to the han. member yesterday to get this information. I had meant to cheek with the Deputy Minister of Justice on my vay in this morning bu~ I was delayed in other matters. However 1 I shall,hopefully before Question Period ends,and I shall gat the information to ~he hon. member. MR. L. THOMS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: for Grand sank. A supplementary, the hen. =ember MR. L. THOMS: Yesterday the Minister of Justice advised the House that this partieular psyehia~rist had not made any further treatments of inmates at the penintiary.

My question to th1 President of the Council is whether or not this psychiatrist has been suspended from practicing at the penintentiary? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. 2812

November 16, 1979 Tape No. 1119 ow - 2 !iR. MARSHALL: Again, ~r. Speaker, I shall take notice of that and give the hon. ~ember a response before the Question Period ends or as soon as I get an opportunity to talk wieh the deputy. HR. L. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER: member for Grand aank. MR.L. THOMS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Final suppl~meneary, the han. Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary or a new question which t would like to direct to the Minister of Health (Mr. Housel. Yesterday in the House the minister stated that this incident would be investigated by the Newfoundland Medical Board and the Hospital Board. Hr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Waterford Hospital is a public institution, and in view of the fact that an incident such as this causes great concern to everybody in the Province who may at some time or other have somebody in the hospital, t does the minister agrea ~hat an outside independent inquiry should be held in this matter? MR. SPEAKER; MR~ W. HOUSE: The hon. Minister of Heal~h. Mr. Speaker, I discussed this last nigh~. I might say unofficially,with the ~dministrator at the hospital. and the Hospi~al Board Chairman.

I do not ~hink a~ this particular point in time, and I discussed i~ with my officials also, that it warrants an outside group to lcok at it. And I .,ant to more or less point out that, if,.. I think there was a reference yesterday that there was sort of a cover-up- I do not think that they would have gone with an investigation, or they would have suspended the person's privileges if they had not been goi~g to give a good review of the situation. 2813

November 16, 1979 Tape NO. lL!O UM - 1 MR. HOUSE: I think we should. wait: unril ;.~e see ::..!1e resu.lts, the ou't.come of t:he particular inves'ti;at:ion t..~at is going on now. MR. THOMS: MR. HOUSE: MR. ROSER'I'S: MR. ROUSE: Would you .Like eo t:a.b.Le :nat'! r Wl.ll. nave t:o t:ake that under advisement. Oh, so we are not: going to see them. I want: eo also make reference to t..~e fact that t..~e hen. member askea yesterday if the patient ·.ras injured, He was not, according eo t..~e information I got yeseerday. lof.R. SPEAKER (Simms): The hen. member for Bonavist:a Nor~~. MR. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Lands and Forests. Would the miniseer :ell us what: the currene state of negotiations is bet:~een his depar~nt and prospeceive operators of the former Rayo sa~~lll MR. SPEA..JtER: The hon. Minist:er of Lands and Forests. MR. !o!ORGAtH Well, Mr. Speaker, the negotiaeions, if you·KOuld call them negotiations, the discussions are t:a.king place between the Oepar~ene of Industrial Development, primarily involving :he Industrial Developmene Cor?oraeion and people who have made submissions in connection wit.~ the re-opening of the Rayo mill.

What we have done in t.'1e De;:a:t:nent. of Forestry is we have mee with the people who have put forward t.~ese proposals to determine t..'1e adequaee wood supplies if the mill is re-opened and. also to get a clear pic-eure of their proposals. we ar:-anged this Monday past in fact, Monday afternoon, for one of t.~e companies making a proposal to meet. with t.~e officials from ehe Industrial Development Departmene and from t.~e corporation and including ~~e officials from the Department. of Fore~ery.

That meeting occurred on Monday afternoon and I understand t.~at proposal is being scrutinized and analy:ed now by the officials of the Industrial Development Corporation and it is a possibility it may be accepeed,but it is not our ~ecision to make. It is the decision of the corporation. MR. SP!!:A.~R: A supplementary, t.~e hen. member =or Sonavista Nort."l. 281.4

November 16, 1979 Tape No. 11:.20 M!-1. - 2 MR. S'::P.L!NG: Would the ~nis~er indicate the sca~e of the Durnt . ..,.cod, the wood that was burn't. in last. S~;JM~er' s forest !ire? Have they had a chance to assess ~~a~? How much is involved? And can it be salvaged? MR. SPEA.KZF.. (Simms): MR. KORGAN: The hon. Minister of Lands and Forests. Y'es, Mr. Speaker, there 'Nas a sur,rey carried out since the fire and for~unately most of ~e wood ~~at was desttoyed or damaged by fire was the •Nood :hat was already damaged by the budworm.

There is a substantial amount of good t.i!nber left in the same area, the same general burnt over area, which ~an be used for sawtaillinq purposes. So we .... 1.11 be assigning <::.hac 'Nood supply that is not: damaged eo the mills in the area md, of course, t: .. .'lat would include the P.ayo sawmill. MR. ST!R.tiNG: MR. SPEAKER: Bonavisea Nor~~. MR. ST!R.tiNG: A final supplemem:.a-"'Y. A final supplementary, the hon. me~~r for Would the ministe:: on behalf of t.."le gove::nment give a commitmenttbecause there is a greae deal of 28:15

~ovember 16, 1979 Tape 1121 PK - l Mr. Stirlina: concern and a recur~ing ~cur about the immL~ent disma:1tling of that m.illr would the minister give a ::cmmitment eo relieve the ~~ieties in the area that there is now no inteneion of dismaneling the miH and that there will be, for sure, no :..'lought of dismantling the mill until all other avenues are looked at and, in fact. thllt:. t.~ere will be no thought of disman~ling it at any point before 1982? Could the minister give thae commi~ent? MR. SPEAKER (SI!1MS) : MR. MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Lands and Forest. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I am not sure if ! can give that commi~ent, but r know tbat shortly after hearing a public statement from the Chairman of the Development corncration ~o the effect tr~t they were planning to dismantle ehe mill, that it was then t~t I arranged a meeting between the Corporation and ehe people who had already made submissions, to make sure the submissions were fully understood by the Corporation. And ! will say,as a result of the meetings ~hat took place this present week, that the dismantling of that mill will be the last resort. MiL SPE:.ru<ER: The han. member for the Strait cf 3elle Isle. MR.

ROBERTS: My question is for the ?remier. He will recall, I am sure,that before the House adjourned in the Summer he under~ook to bring us up to date with respect to the situation as it existed aff~cting the contract of the head of the ~hen existing~now defunct, Action Group. We have heard no~;jng since i that was a number of months ago, of cou:s~. could the Premier,perhaps,brtng the House up to date? The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECXFORO: Well, Mr. Speaker, the member for the Strait of Belle Isle's

preamble is· not totally correct. I think the pe\?ple of Newfoundland have heard since the House closed about what government was doing on the matter. so I do not think it is to~lly correct to say that nobody has heard anything since the House closed as it re!ated t::~ this matter ,-,n the status of that, because on a number of occasions­ the member for t:he St.rait of 3elle Isle nighe ha,e been out of :he ?!:"evince - MR. RCEE.RTS: That is possible. 2816

November 16, 1979 Tape 1121 PK - :Z PREMIER P'£CXFORO: - or on other business or sor.ething and he might not have heard some of the news reports which reported upon the status of it. So it might not be totally accurate to make that kind of a statement. The negotiations are still ongoing on the matter with the bead of the Action Group, and, hopefully, within the next few days or a week or so I will be able to give a full and definitive report on those negotiations. MP •• SPEAKER: {SL"!MS) Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary, the hen. member for the Mr.

Speaker, there are obviously a number of supplementaries, a number which has increased by the very vagueness of the Premier's answer. First of all, let me thank him for correcting my inaccuracy; you know, I am suitably grateful to him. I wonder if the Premier could tell us, please, how much has been paid by the public to the head of the Action Group since the Action Group was disbanded? MR. SPEA.l(ER: The hon. the Premier.

P~ttR P£C!a"ORD: • I do not have the exact figure, but whatever the monthly payments are that were due under the contract have been, of course 1 paid. 9u~ several meeeings have been held with the head of the Action Group and his lawyers, and with government, and members of the Department of Justice,. and those negotia~ions are ongoing. AN B:ON. ME."1BER: Are you his lawyer: MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker - no I am not his lawyer. LinaudibleL MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: A final supplementary 1 if ! might. Your Honour. So the gentleman has been getting his previously existing rate of pay.

Could the Premier tell us what duties, if any, the head of the Action Group has 281.7

t1ovecber 16,1979 Tape t:o.ll22 AH -1 Ceen carrJing oue ir. return !or receiving his sala~J at ~~e existing :aee of pay since the Action Group was disbanded, 1 gac.her i-:. was about ':.he eioe of the Budget 1 which •..ras in Suly. '!'hat is th.e ti~e it was announced. What has he been doing tt.e last !our or five months? :-m,, SPE.IUCER: {Sitt::liS) PP.FM!ER l?ECY..FOP.D: The ~on. the Premier.

Once again,! must correct the hen. member for ~~e Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.P~berts) Cecause I do r.oe th.ink he is eotally accura"':e. :'or the PUrFoses of his queseicn it make& ie somewhat more dramatic, somewhat more blatant to indicate things whic.;, are not exactly accurate. t'hat is t..l-tat it took soll'e t:.itne for t...~e Action Group to wine! d01:·11 and in a number o! activities t.~at t."'.e Action Group were involtred in it was phased out over a period of time and did not actually disband, !:ang! the day after the Budget. ~. nt.ltt'J::oer of t..'"le individuals were brought back to the original departmenes from whence t..~ey came, so it die noe happen ove:niqht as the member !or tb .. e Stra.it of Belle !sle (~..r.Roberts) would ~ave us believe. ~e head of the Action Group was involved in the phase-down operations of t.."'.e Action Group because t.~ere were a number of matters outsta.."'.di.."l.g whicb. had to be transferred to e..;e Oepar'l:ment of Forestry, •..rhich had to be transferred to the Departlnent of Rural Development and the oepart=ent of Fisheries.

They were t..,e three main departments involved. 1he whole question of applications to t.l-te Loan Board or t.~e Rural Development Soard or whatever, it. took some time for that to be phased down. We have Ceen discussing wit.; the head of the Action Group other activities that the gentleman could get involved in in the mean~e.but no~;ing has been resolved on that so he has been just winding down, paying ~~e final bill~· I do not think t..,e final bills were all in when we did up t.~e EuCget, for example 1 and we put a figure there.

So the coming Sudget might reflect additional funds that had to be paid for rene a...t:. t.he place, to people who were on staff and so on _:whoa:. we could not phase down over a couple of weeks. So there were soce funds spent over and above 2818

~ovember 16,1979 Tape No. 1122 AH-2 what ·:~as predi'--:ed to be spent in o~Ce~ for ~~e phase-down to take place. ~r. c~te ~as involved in t.~e phasing down of t."l.e AC""...ion Group. in the last nuo:!tter of months. !-f:P •• SPE:AKEP.: (Simms) MR. NE:'APY: The bon. me~ber for LaPcile. Mr. Speaker, I 1.1ant to ::!irect a q.1estion to the .-tinist:e.r responsible for t.'1e Spruce btmworm,SU. i:le are told, Mr.

Speaker, that the ~inister had advice not to prceeed with last y~ar•s spraying ?rogramme,that it would =e useless and futile to proceed wit."l t.~e proqraxr.me because of t.'le late Celivery of t."le spraying materials. Woula ~~e minister indicate to ~'l.e House wheth.er or not t..'l.e spray .crogra:rme last year !':ad any effect at all or was it just a waste of ~'l.e taxpayers money? ~e her.. ~inister o! Forest:y and Agricul~ure, the ~ister responsible for the tuQwo~. !-!P .• SPE1\ie2R: The hen. Minister of Lands a.nd Forests. Hr. Speaker, 2819

Novembe~ 16, 1979 Tape 1123 EC - l lase yea:;: 1 s spray prog~a..r.me was carrieci out as an experimenc in ecnjunction wic."l t.."le same ':ype of experiment carried ouc in New Brunswick, Hova Scotia, Quebec and the Stat'.e of .Ma.ine, We car~ied it out in our Province. a.s members of t.~e E:astarn Budworm Council, consisti.nq of representation from t."t.e places t just uentioned. Because of the laeeness i.n arriving because of the eruc:ke.rs 1 strike in the States and because of bad weather conditions, it was the intention to have two spray applicacicns.

We only carried out one spray appllc:ation, and '.lpon the advice of t.b.e officials, the second spray application d..id not: occur. MR. N'EAR¥; MR. SPE:Ala:R: (Simms) for La.E'oile. MR. """"-"' A supplementary, H.r, Speaker. A suppl&lM:ntary, the hen. the member Well, I qa.t.."ler then from the hon. minister 1 s answer that the information t.~at we have is cor;:ec't, t."lat. the spray programma was eompletely ineffective, :tid not.h.inq excepc cost the t:axpayers money. Was it a. failure? That is what I a.m asking t.."le bon. qent.lesnan.

That ne., spray programme, that. experiment, was it. a failure and how much did it east the taxpayers? MR. SPE:;.KER: 'I'he han. t.."le M.inisur of Lands and Forests. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I wish t.hat we did have control. over certain conditions over w-hich we do not have control and. that is w-eather conditions.

I ma.nticned the lateness of a.rriva.l .because of the truckers 1 strike but after it arrived and after the first application vas ca.r:ried out, we had. some veey severe weather conditions, wet weather conditions, in t.hac t..ime, in t.~ month of June. ! t.'ti..nk we al.l recall that - we ..,ere out c::ampaiqning, looking for votes, all of us in the House here. We ha.d sor~E very wet conditions. Because of th.e weather conditions, that was the main reason for t.'te second application not being carried ou't, and. we ha.d. no control over the weat.her conditions. Z820

November 16 1 1979 Tape 1123 E:C - 2 In connection with the c::ost: faet:.or, tile coat: of sprayinq 15,000 acres was approximAtely $100,000. I do not:. have the fiqure off the t:op of :rf b.ead here, but tha.t is one of the reasons, u m:inister, upon revievinq the a.asess-.nt of the spray a.ppllcat.icn 1 inf~uaneed my decision in sayinq that usinq Bt in sprayinq in the Province is not the answer to any larqe seale spray proqr.lUl'll%18 because of the hiqh cost face.or.

It coat:. approximately sa.so per acre t.o spray. '111ia meant, in this eue, &.l.rrl:lst ten tiJ:aes as much as usinq a cbemi.cal spray, and therefore it is not:. feaaihla or econ.omical to ca::ey out:. any larqe sc:a.le spray proqra.t:rll:ll4 u.si.nq Bt. That: is the reason why I said that:. the answer to any larqe scale spray proqramme is not: using Bt, and I think r::y decision in that reqa.rd will be also rat.ifi.ed. by tne: Easeam Bu.dworm Council, consist.inq of the Provinc:4& of N'ova.

Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec and t.b.e Stat.e of Maine, because I am of tile opinion their conclusion is basically the same. MR.. NE.AAY: A supplementary question, Mr. Sp4a.kar. 282:1

Hover.tbe.r 16, 1979 Tape ::lo. 1124 SD ... l. A final supplementary, ~;e hon. :uecJ::er for t.aPoile ,followed by t.'le :::ember for Sa.ie Vene-Whi te Bay. ar. Speaker, in view of the answers given by t."le ninister, there muse be then a .;ubst:antial amount of at chemical on hanQ. How much do we have? How much of the St spray ma.eerial do we have on har.ci'? What is the dollar value of it? How much :1atacil do '.¥'e have on hand ae t:..'-le present: ti.:::.e? what is t.'le dollar value of that'? "'nere is it stored?

And '.¥'ould t.he minister tell us, this is a ~~ee prong q~estion, what pr~gramme r~ intends to carry out. next year, in t:.."l.e coming year, to deal wit.n t.he spurce buUworm which is still a major problem in t:..~is Province? order, please! The hen. oember has asked, I believe, about six questions t:..~ere in t~~t one ~ues~on. It might. Pe the ~iPe of question more appropriately placed on the order ?ctper. : t:..~ink t.he.re were about six. quest.ions placed anti this loiOuld not be t.lte approperiate t.i::le to ask that n1.lml:;er of questions, during 2Uestion ?eriod.

If you would like to ask one speci!ie question? ;\fr. Speaker, I would. :..!..:<e to know how much spray ~a~erial is new on hand, where it is stored and :he Collar value of ~~e ~~t.acil and the 3t spra1 mat.e=ial ~a~ is on hand XR. SPE:.\KZR: M.tt. :t. !lO?.G:.:I: the questions, all of 1:..1-tem if possible, if !'.ot, .J.ny iniomat.ion ! ~Jverlook I will infor:n the House on the neXt: sitting. We do r~ve Matacil,wnich is a chemical. St is not. a ~~emical. The hen. gentleman referred to it as ~~e 3t chemical. St is noc a chemical_.. at.ac:il U.. M.auc:i.J. is beinq storad.

What .., .. not used. this year and left over frOlft the spray proqram&lll!l of 1978, is S'CO red, adequately s-:ored, and secured on a site in the Stephenville area. And I mentioned sane ti::l.e ago ,I c!o not. think it: is in t."le best interest. of the general public t.o l:lake kr.own . .,.here it is scored but it is adequat.ely secured ar.d stored in th.e stephenville area.

~lovt::eber 16, 1979 '!'a;e ::o. 11.::!4 £;) - 2 MR. J. :-!ORGA.'l: In :.he =te.!lnti::e, · ... e are a.t:.tempting tc sell cl-.at :~.at:.ac.!.l, and we have been doing that. for the ?as:. numbe::: of monehs now, to potential b~yers.

Potential b~yers, of course, are limit.ed because there are only these provinces wb.ich are qoinq t:.o use the !1acacil next:. year in a spray programme that would ba potenti:Al buyers. ~:hat we in tend to do in eonnecti.on wit..'l t.he ~uQ..,'Or.n situation in t..'1.e Province :.oda'b on Moruiay coming the :tesou.rce Policy Cot:".mittee of Cabinet will be totally briefec. by the resea:::hers ar.d scientists who did t:.be work this Su..""'m.er. ~ey are employees of :::..~e federal Jepa.rt:ment of :;ores t-ry, ~le canadian forest~/ Service.

They will give a total briefL'1.g, a de.ta.iled .briefing t:o t!-.e Resource Polic-J Co:nmittee of Cabi..,ec on :..'te present sit:.uation that is in conjunction wit..'l the report already received from che same people, and ~~en the Resouxce Policy ccmmic:ee of Cabinec. "<~ill be briefing or submitting :he decails to Cabinet and e.lten Cabinet "<~ill decide wh.J.t. action t:b.ey will '.:.ake in t.lte future. But in connection wit.'t th.e :na.tt:ers .· 2823

November 15, 1979 Tape t-lo. 1125 UM - l M..l'{. MORGAN: on :..'le first pa.r't. ~f t.~e question, how much St is on hand, if any, and the cost of :..,_at material, I cannot answer that question right now hut I will gee the informacion for the hen. gentleman. 1-'..R. SPEAKER {Simms l : The hen. !I'.ember for aaie Ver'te - Whit:e Say. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, my question is for :..~e Premier.

I do not know if t.~e Premier has had a chance yet to be briefed on happenings last night in Roddickton because I know he was out of the city on o~'ler business, but for his information I understand that the Town Councl.l of a.oddickton has sene a •1er; urgent request t.o 'Che Premier requesting t..~at a commission of enquiry be established in an effort to determine why, despite t..'le fact that t..'le area is very richly blessed with foreserJ resources, the employreenc:. situation is so desperate and so unstable in that; town 35 it is.

So I would like to ask the Premier if he could tell me whether or not he will look sympathetically on that request and whether the government intends to see eo it. The hon. the Premier. PREMIER ?ECXFORD: I ~ill ask ~~e ~inister of Lands and Corests, who is familiar with the problem, to ::espond. MR. R!.:;IECY"''': Is he familiar •Ji t..~ t.~e telegram? !>!R. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Lands and Fores~s. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, the situation in ?.oddicXton is that-t rum completely at a loss as t..~e ~nister responsible for forest-~ to understand what is happening in regard to the complaints Based on the fol~owtnq f4!=ts\. AN EON. MDtBE..~: We know that and that is MR.

MORGAN: At a meeting with the council in Roddickton no longer than a month ago, approximately a month ago, we outlined to them, when I say we, the Department of .?'ores try, steps being eaken,. a...,d ~o~hich have now been taken by t..'le department, to overcome on a short-term basis the un- employment si tuat.ion i.:t the a:ea and. the &c:tion being taken i.s as foll~; He 2824

November 15, 1979 Tape No. 1125 NM - 2 MR. MORGdN: have arranged for the export of 22,000 cords of pulp wood from tb.e a.rea, from that area of Main Brook - Roddickton, by means of 15,000 cords going to Henderson and Company of Montreal and 7,000 cords t:.o Trans Trade of ~nt:::eal, th:ough Canada Bay !.umber. The 15,000 cords co Henderson and Company are tnrough means of cutting permits issued to ~- Leander Pilgrim in Rocldic:kton, Mr. Booch Reid, a !ir. Coaces - AN HOr-1. MEMBER: Hear, hear: MR. MORGAN: - and to canada Bay.

These are permics issued, and when we issued these permits in t.~e area t:o these people to cut this '""cod it would have meant 1 if the permits were now being utilized and used, the employment of more than 100 people, approximately 100 to 150 people in t:he area. And when the pe::mits were appUed for and were issued, we were not of t.~e opinion then that there was any problem wit.~ regard to the permit holders having difficulty arranging finances to get the men in the woods. That is the short-term.

On :.~e lonq-ter.tt.. this government is now carrying out and will be carrying out- we have called tenders for a detailed feasibility study to be carried out on the Great Nort.~ern Peninsula on t.~e possibility of establishing a ~~ermo•me~~anical pulp plant:., a waifer Poard mill or some kind of a mill t.o utilize the wood, like maybe a tissue manufact:.uring plant, 2825

November 16, 1979 Tape ~To. ll26 ow - l MR. J. MORGAN: any kind of an indus~ry tha~ will utilize the existing wood supply. These tenders have been called, we received thirteen submissions on the tenders, tenders will be awarded in the next number of days and, hopefully, the result of that study will show sufficient evidence ::o warrant the attraction of industry to go to that area and to establish some long-term benefits for the area by means of employment. Well, ~r.

Speaker, the answer to the question is simply this: in the short-term we have taken action and~ve are also takinq action for the lonq-term for the year. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. 'l'. RIDEOUT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) A supplementary, the hon. member for Baie Verte -white Bay. MR. T. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I have no quarrel whatsoever with a single word that the mi~ister ~as said and I do not think I have aver given any indication thae I did.

I know that those things have been done bue there is st~ll,obviously,a problem and the tovn council assembled in public meeting last niqht does not k.:1ow what the problems are and does not know how to find. out t:he answers. All the thinqs the minister has said are t....-ue; yes 1 the crisis, the economic situation is still prevalent in that community.

So I still go back to the original questicn;the duly elected representatives of the town have requested assistance from the government to ~ut in place a commission of inquiry of some sort to determ~ne why the things that the minister referred to, and everything else that has been happening with the economy of Rodci'ickton over the last couple of years. why it is not working out? Now I ask the minister again,since he is speaking for the government, will the government be sympathetic to that request and can we expect to hear news in that regard shortly? 2826

November 16, 1979 Tape !lo. 1126 OW - 2 MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): The ~on. Minister of Lands and Forests. M.R. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I guess the govern- ment will be just as sympathetic co the request received in that regard &S the Leader of the Opposition would be to the request to have the hon. gentleman removed from the area, v&ich is a very similia.r request that came in t......o days ago from the same people in the _same area. SOME~HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. J.

MORGAN: I sincerely hope that the Leader of the Opposition will not comply vith chat request,! think the han. gentleman is doing a fine job for his district and I say it sincerely. AN HON. KEMBER: Including th'3; people of Roddick ton, by the way. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. J. MORGAN: However, the request, r assume, haa been received by th8 Premier 1 s office.

I am sure the Premier will be referrinq it on to the departments concerned ~nd if our depar~ment is involved I will be more than pleased to meet with the council again for the second time in a period of a mont~-and­ a-half and to meet with the committee. I understand that what is happeninq in Roddickton,and the hon. gentleman can correct me ·~is that there seems to be t:.wo factions: one fact:.ion is the council,and then there is a committee established by a public meetinq and there seems to be a difference of opinion bet .... een t..l;.e two qroups.

However, I will be only too pleased as the minister responsible for forestry 1 which is a big resource in that area 1 to meet with the council or any group who wants~a meeting with me or the officials of the Department of Lands and Forests. 2827

:1ove.r.ber 15, 1979 z.!R. SPI:A.:.CZR: (SI!-!.H.S) ~q PECKSORD: the hon. met\kler - :.m. treA.!tY : :.tR. SPEAKI::R: A.'..f nON' • .:1E.."1BER ;• SO!<te: HON. :·~.DE?.S: PREHitR PECKFORD: A final - I •..,.oultJ just like c.o respond. to 'Nha t response 1 The hon. the Premier. By leave? By leave? By leave. One of t.b.e foroble:::::s ::.."lAt. ...,e have- I have the telegram here now and I have jus1: seen it:. a few m.:..nut:.es ago. MR. SPEAKER; M..'l. ~"EARY' : grant leave. SCl-tE HOU. MEMBERS : PREHIER PEC..~ORD: Is t..~s in orde.=, :tr. Spea?..er? 9y leave. Sy leave?

I am r.ot prepared to Oh, oh! !~ the hon. rr.em.ber !or :.aPoi.le (!1::. ~ear;> wants' to interfere ...,ith i.."lfo::mation t."u.t :::. want. to give to his colleague, well ~en he is at liberty so to do. MR. NEAP.!': procrastinate and talk about. oil. ~·1R. SPEAKER: ~lo. I tr.ought j"'U were r;oing to Order, please ~. Order please! I understood from t."le non. ::aem.be.r for aaie Vene-Whit:e bay :.hat t.here was leave to hear the Premier's respor.se. The hen. t.."le Premier. p~~R PECKFORD: We have some difficulty, as t.~e hen. member reali~es.

TWo days ago we did get a telegram, a copy of a tele­ gram t..i . .a.t was sent to t.;,e Leader of the Opposition concerning the hon. member. And. now ..,e have another telegram from t.."le same area, I do not ':hink it is from the same group. MR. ROBERTS: ~~s or~ is from t.."le Council. PR£.\f.IER PEC..'<FORD: T~is one is from the Council. Well, I can read. And if ~~ hen. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) If he would just rettain. silent, I will respond in the way ehat:. I see fit, and I do not need a.ny assistance from the hen. ceo.ber for t,.;,e strait of Belle Isle. 2828

~lovomter 15, 1979 SOME UON :·!E • .'iB.E:~: 1:!!.:..,_1[~: PREMIER PECKFORD: Tape :to. 1127 ?K.2 Hear, hear! There is no oil - (inaudible) And so therefore we have to be sure~ because as t.'le !-fin.i.st:.er of Lands and Forest says, and ! tn.ink most of us here in this House believe, that t."l.e hen .. oernber for Baie Verte-white aay (Hr. Rideout) is doL~g a good job. We do not. therefore consider the valit!ity of t.~e copy of the telegram t.'lat we got a couple of days ago to be all t.'lat strong.

At t.he seme time, we aave another telegram from the peopla of RoCdickton saying something else, a.nd asking for an inquiry: so we have :.o invest.igate :o ensure just who is speaking for whom in ~rd.dickton. And to ensure that when .,..e respor.d, we are :-esfOl".ding responsibly, ar.d leqiti•nate:.:•, because there a.re dif!erent faceions, as the minister just mentioned, and we want to be sure before we take any action or respond to the~ that we are aealing wi~ the ~ajority of the people in t.."'le ?.oCd.ick:toa area. And as .. ,.,_ ...

L~ister has al­ ready said, we are crying our darnest to take action t.,ere to alleviate a very diffJ.cult situation. 3ut ~"'le ~unicipal politics or what:ever of the area is somewhat confu.sing at t.."le present lllCitlen:; bec.1use of the differences in t;."le increpreution one can put L~to the various telegrams that .1re coming to our attention. ;:t8. RIDEOUT: " final s-.tppleme.n ta.r:t. MR. SPEAKER (5It1.'i5) ~ A final supplementary. We have tl.me for only one final supplecent:.ary. MR. NEAR~: ay leave? ay leave? MR. R!DEOli'T: Mr.

Speaker, I am not a bit con- ce:rned about any telegrams requesting resignations or anything of ~"'lat nature. ! have twice now, and I will do again, put my head on t."le line in tile ballot box, which is what we are all accustomed to in this House. However, I want to ask the Premier, ii1 view of' the ans"Wer that he just gave me, whether or not the Premier is act-aally saying to the House that the governm-ent has to go al::out weighing

Nove:r.ber 16,1979 Tape !lo, 1128 A.H-l XR.

RI~CUT; or investigating t..'le authenticit:: of the o:!uly elected council;ccnt:ary to t.'lat 1 '=..'le aut.":.er.t:.icity o! a nonelected, concerned citizens co:m:tittee. r~ seet!"S to r::e t.~at one is an legitimate corr.munity force t.~at c..;,e goverr.ment ought to have no ,:?robletns responCing to 1 and t.~e other one ~if tb.e gove:rr.:.ent wants to find out whether it is authentic or not, that is up to itself. aut certainly this request from t.~e duly elected, legitimate representatives of ~~e communityp~t.~ere should be no need, I do r.ot.t.'link, to ~ave any reason to want an investigation to CaciCe who you respcnC to.

The ~remier is not saying that to ~e, is he? PREMIER PECKFORD: The hen. ~~er is free to interpret ary remarks how he •.tishes. I will say ·ll':.at I have to say and what I say is what I mean, but if ;,e wants to put some oth'!:

interpretation on it he :nay. All I am saying is th.at t.l-te:e ftas been a number of different groups; members on the Opposition side from time to til%le have brought t.,e concerns of citizens groups and action groups before t.~is hon.

House in a way as to legitimi%e ~~e concerns that ~~ose so-called action groups and citizens groups have been ar-...iculating outside of t..~is House anci. have there£ore given a. fair amount of validity and eredi,!,ility to groups •.tho were not elected under any legislative act. of this House to have their existance !:lut 'Who still had a fair amount of power and ered..i.bili ty and were expressing some legitimate concerns of a large group of people in that particular area.

So how one deter.nines the criteria for when something is legitimate or illegitimate as it relates to elee~ed or nonelecteC in a given area is a good question. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Time for Oral Questions has eXpired. 2830

!tovember 16,1979 Tape tto. 1128 AH-2 A..'ISWEP.S TO QUESTIONS !OR WHICH :!O'!'IC!: E:AS BEE!t GIVEN UP.. S?EA."<E'?::: {Siir.InS) council. M R. !-f.APSHAl.L: The hen. President of t.~e Mr. Speaker, I have an answer to ~~e question asked earlier this morning by the hen. !l'.ember for Grand Bank (!1r.T!'!oms). First of all,! have learned t.."lat the patient concerned is in !act a ward of the Departmen~ of Justice.

Secondly,wi~~ r~spect to the second par~ of the question- Has the doc:tor ~een suspended !rem the peni tentiar{?- the answer is t..'1.at he has not been suspended but the doctor himself has voluntarily wit.~drawn from the penitentiar.{ pending t."le cc...-;:letion of the investigation whi~~ is ongoing. His patients are =einq looked after and they have been referred to another psychiatrist by ~~e doc~r himself who done this, as I say, voluntarily after consultatJ.on with the Oepart:ment of Justice itself. May I say also in ans"rer to the question - I knc:M the hon. member for Grand 3an.lt {!-lr.

Tho~rs l will concur and a.gree with me on this -I think t.'"lat we have to be careful in eonnection with t.~is particular matter, that there is an inveseigation ongoing and ~ere are rights, t:.wo separate right:s, two or ::..1-J.ree 'Jarying rights tc be lcoked at: in this regard. I thir.k tha.t we should be very careful not to ~=ejudice the righ~s of any particular individual because I r~ow the hen. m~er fer Grand Bank {Mr.~~o~) would not wish ~~ese to be prejudiced. Suffice it Z831

November 16, 1979 Tape No. 1129 ~ - l t.o say t.hougr. that I hope t...~at:. he has the information he requires and I would suggest that perhaps with the investigaeion ongoing that future quest:.ions, unless they are really necessary, perhaps should '"'ai t pending the ou-:come of t.he inveseigation, the result of which, of course, will be made known publicly. But in the meantime I know t:he hon. member will appreciate it becomes a little bit dicey and a little bit difficult. with respect to it because there are rights to be concerned about. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR.

Jof.ARSHALL: Motion no. 32, first reading of Bill no. €6. Motion, the hen. t:.he ?rem.ier to int.roduce a l:lill, "An Act To Provide For An Advisory Council On 'l'he Sta.t.ua. Of Women1 .. carried. (Bill No. 66). On motion, Bill No. 66 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tcmorro~. MR. !-tA.RSHALL: Order 32, BilL no. 58. !om. SPEAKER (Simms l : Order 32, continuing debat.e, second reading of a bill, "An A.ct To l\mend, Revise And Consolidate the Law Relat:.ing To The Establisr~nt And Administ:.ration Of Municipal Government In The Province." (Bill No. 58) The hon. member for Sonavista North. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. S'l'!RLING: Thank you very much. ~esterday as ~e began the debate I indicated t...~at the government could have shown a little more respect for the mun1cipalit1es involved by agreeing to delay this debate until after the minister had met with the executive of the federation, which I think is scheduled for this afternoon. ! heard a news report that indicated t...~at they had no problems as reported by the minister. The minister said ~~ey ~~ew all about it.

Then I read ano~~er new report which gave a different story from the point of view of the fede:at:.ion and I think that actually illustrates e..~e point ! was t-rying to make, that 35 a question of cour~esy to the 2832

November 16, 1979 Tape No. ll29 NM- 2 MR. STIRLING: councillors, ~~e vast majority of ~hom serve without: any pay 1 ·..rithout any :rcneta.ry gain 'Nhatsoever 1 out of oourtesy to ~~ose people ehe minister should have at least ~aited until after his meeting with t..~em to decide to int:.roduce this bill for second reading. I would like just to review, Mr. Speaker, the points that I made yesterday bringing me up to t..~e stage where we ean look at some of the specifics. First of all,I have asked ~~e minister to tell the t-""Uth about the basic purpose behind t..ltis act and the consolidation.

He says t..ltat it was following_basically,t..~e royal commission ?:~:mort. The royal pommission told ehe truth. The royal commission told t.he truth that in their view :nany smaller municipalities in Newfoundland were not paying t..lteir fair share of the cost of services. They told the truth t.i.at in their view we were moving in the direction of having more provincial involvement, more provincial help, and away from having to force municipalities to increase their own taxes. The royal commission t~ld t..lte truth in that:.

When the minister spoke to the Federaeicn of Municipalities, I suggest to you ~~at he created a false sense amongst the municipalities ':.hat now have a property e..:u, a false ::oense in t:hat he is. introciuci.nq an incentive programme that is going to look like a real bonanza for them, a real bonanza for them. E'er those who have a property ta."( system noW', that: ther~ is going to be a.n incentive grant system of a real bonanza. And I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the minister should have followed the royal commission report and told ~~e truth about the real purpose behind thi.s act and ahould people 2833

November 16, 1979 7ape :lo. llJO 5D - - ~or~ of s~ell it a~t in c~s for people to clearly understand and tr~t is, the fact of ~'le matter is, t.'le intenl:.ion of !:his act is to force 90 per cent:. of tile mur.i.eipalit.ie.s in Hewfotlndl.and t:.b.at do not now have property tax,t.o force theo to implement property tax and tile car:::ot that is held out:. is the act which '"'as passed a couple of years age, and t.'1.e Capieal Grants rtct..

It is important, during c.lte debate on t.'lis very essential bill, this bi~l whJ.ch will affect.- by very ciefinition, it will affect 85 per cent of the people and has t."le possibili~J of af!ectinq ~ie o~'ler lS per centa And when ! say affect, let \J.S call a spade a spade, Under t.'lis act e..":.e people wno are municipal taxpayers will pay oore =cney, municipal taxpayers will pay more money unless the government su.bstantially increases the huclqet :hat the minister has to work ...,it:.h.

And ! t.":.ink it. is i:aport.l.ne, in summari:ing t.l-),e point:s ! :nad.e yesterday, :o h.ave c.'le minister L"'lt:rco.uce into this House before we !'inish the debate on t.'lis bill, his projection of what effect it will have on municipa.lities if there are no additional fur~s ?rovided ty ~1e goverr.ment. Whae would be the a.ffect under the old sysee.c?

What will !:::e t.he effect under the new system and to t.he various alternatives? aecause whae is not spelled out. in ~'lis bil~.or what is not spelled out in the municipal ;rant system is ~at each individual municipality must be looked at by the Cabinet a.nd they will d.ecide, they will decide how much t..'1ey are going to force the municipality to eollec~ in t.he way of tax because they are going to decide how much of the subsidy they are ;oing to pay for these large Capital Works projects, the waeer and. sewerage projects and related type projects.

So the minister should cable for this House his comparisons of t.."le old system and the new syst:em. Out of cou:tesy to these municipalities_ he also should. send t."lat to each municipality to spell it out, to say, based on the government 1S present ~'linking, and we are talking in te::ms of five year programmes. The minister made a verv aeod poL"'l.t yesterday and ! would like to 2834

:iovec.ber 16, l9'79 'I"Pe :-;o. ll.lO so - ;; is caking in get-cing engineering wrk 4.-"lde::way so thae we .are ne-e ineo a hit. and miss kind of proposi::icn 1 we are not into .1 sit~.:.a::ion where, ecce the first of January, nobody k..'10ws ~at is happening. And he has started by forcing municipalit.ies ':.o :tal<e five year proj e:c-:.ions. But if we expect municipalities ::o make five year projeccions,surely at ~~s ~tage the government can make a five year projection !or ~~ac municipality and for this House as eo the amount of ::oney :hey are going to put into t:.'ti.s act.

Because if t:hey ars not, bet'<~~een t."lese two acts cor:bined, goi.'1g ::o ?Ut in :n:~re mor.ey ::here .!.5 only one place forth~ money eo come from ane t.~t is 1 ii you are prcmis~ng to give ::-.ore incentive grants ~ the people ·..rith property tax, t."'len you must force the 90 per cent of t.."le smaller comunities in this Province co increase their ::axes and to increase th.em substantially.

So I believe it is important for ~~e minister ':O get an indication from his colleagues in the same sense as he is requiring municipalit.ies to provide t.~eir five fear projectior~, to let ~unicipalities know, based on his conversation with the Cabinet, just where e.>tey are going to go over the nex-:. five rears. 3ecause, otherwise, ·.o~e are ri;ht back to the beginning situation of haVi.."lg each municipality ~e to ~~e minister and say, "Tell us now much we have get to ~~argP.~ in your judgement?"Because the :ninin.er has :naae the point, he ~as made it before t.!le Federation, he has made it here,again 1 chat i.'"l. many communities ~~ere is not any kind of busi..,ess tax base and t.h.e propli!rty tax for those commWlities chat now have a good income from pre per-cy tax 1 in :hose communities, a good portion of that income comes from. the business tax, from the property tax on business as opposed to Cusiness tax itself • So t.bese communities should know where they stand under t..~e old s1stem and under the new system because many of ~~e communities ,jo net have tile base.

Sy natural growt:.h, by nae:ural init.ia.tive frot:1 these ouni.cipallties they Aoiwoe 2835

November 16, 1979 Tape llJl :::c- l MR. STIRLING: have int.roduced property tax where it. was feasible and. sensible and. pract:.ic:al, and it is not by coin.cit!ance that 90 per cent of these municipalities do not have a properey tax. So I bel.ieve to stm up the point I made yeatuday, the mini.su.r should let these mwl.i.cipal.ie.i.es know how th:is whole. th.i.nq is going to fit in the uoney si t:uat:ion. Now 1 let. us Q.ea.l with some of the specific points.

The minister !Mntioned yescerday that the only difference between a. community council and the town council under t..Us act is the method in which they are elected. Now, I. have talked t.o some c:ommwlity ccunci.llors, Mr. Speaker - and I would. like to k.tlOW why the government feels tha.t a c::onmun.i ty eoune.il st.ill has to qo t.hrough t.~e publlc meeting staqe. All of us here know about the problems of nomi.nat:.L"lq meet.inqs, t.~e people who attend meetings, the people who do not at.tend meetings and the reluctance of many of the satisfied citizens to attend a public meeting. I.t would seem to me, Mr.

Speaker, that we should ask the mi.n.ister, ..,. should ask the government, to consult with the community ccuncils to see if they would not. prefer to be elected as we are elected - MR.. R.. MCORES; MR. STIRLING; Right. - and be elected. u t."le t:aWn council.s are elected in setting up a. proper system. 'tou know, we a..ra talking a.bout coam.m.ity councils that are relatively small. One polling boot:h for the whole d.a.y is net goinq to eit.~er wreck this govunment or ...,reck the community council.

If, as the mini.ster says, the reason that the government is requirinq community eouncils to be 'elee-:ed by calling a. public meati.ng - t:he raason for it is that it is costly, then for the small cost involved, thl.s Leqislat:.ure should pic::k. up the cost of it. Because. if you look at ..,hat we are t.:ying to do - \ol'8 are trying to say in t.Us bill that the comaunity caunci.llors in the sma.ll eommunities, or ene totn eounc.i.llorS, b.ave to qo before their own people and be treated i..'"\ a responsible and respectable manner. Well, tha minister has already seen - and the :nember for Htmlber West (Mr.

Ba.i.J::

d) introduced. a petition, we are only six months Uter an election and there is a petition with 6,000 names on it of people 2836

November 16, 1979 Tape llJl EC - 2 who have a desire co t.."lrow- out l:he council. tlov, suppose they force that council co go to a publlc meeting eo gat alec:ted... A CJJ!llllunity eounc:il, under t.."li.s act, may be required to make some vary tough decisions. AN HON. MEMBER• Right. MR. S'I'IRI.L."-1G: And. a.s a result of making the tough decisions, t."ley naturally will attract t:.o t.."le public meeting all :.hose who are upset, a.nd. in the heat of the moment they may taka actions that they will be sorry for afterwards.

So I would strongly urge that t."te minister consider consulting with the ind.iviciual members of the community councils all over t.'lis Province to find out if they should not be elected in the normal :nanner, in the secrecy of a ballot box, a.ncl let the person go in .. rather than haw to attend a public: maet:.inq, to go in, as we get elected and a.s town councillors get elected.. Let somebody use the ballot box at the convenience of the individual person .. no requirement for a public t:ee"tin.q. Mr.

Speaker, there is another pcine in this act - I know the Federation has made it very st..~nqly, and yet, it:. goes back in this act.. I would Uke to use Humber Wes"t as an example aqai.n. Humber West has just had. a petition presented to t.'l.e House signed by a lllajority of the voters who voted in the municipal election, a..ski.n.g tha.t the council be dismissed. AN HON. HE.HBE.R: That. many I.i.):)erals, eh? ..... NEAllY• MR. STIRLING: How many I.iberal.s - 6 , 000 r..ihera.ls We have had USAnY requests over the la.st number of zears to look at this specifi.e piece of legislation.

Under the Municipal Act, as the minister knows, ha has the aut.l-tority to dismiss that counc:U or to dismiss any member of the oouncll. AN HOO. MEMBER: Riqne. MR. STIP.L.ING: And there is no right. of appeal. And that has happened in the past., that the government:. of the d.a.y b.a.s cU..s­ =issed a councillor. 2837

November 16. 1979 Tape 1132 PK - l MR. STiru:.ntG: There is no right of appeal in this Act and the Federation has requested that this be changed. In this Act there is not even the =ight of appeal to their own citizens, because if the minister dismisses a councillor or if a minister dismisses a whole Council and there is an election wiehin two years,we have eaken away from the individual the right to submit his case to the people who put him there. SOME HON. ME~ERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY': You mean they defranchise him? MR.

ST!RI.ntG: It will not allow the person under this Act to seek election again within two years. If the election comes up ...,it:.hin two years, the government has decided under this Act that the individual cannot seek re-election. No~ it is of no interest, none of the business of this government, if we are saying, that we give back to the people from that community the right to set their own budget, to elect their own people.

Now1 bear in mind what:. you have- let us take HUmber West as an example~ What you have in that situation, 3. group of peoole electe~ a counci~or, a group - AN HCN ~ XE'.MBE.': MR. !1£A?..Y': MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER l!!AIJUl} ' MR. STIRLING: A dictatorsr.ip. You would not know but we are living in Russia. Mr. Speaker, could I have silence? Order, please! Thank you~ Mr. Speaker, !'agree with the minister when he introduced this., that all of those-and the Present Minister of Health {~.r. House) was on the Federation of ~icipalities,as I was, when this debate started on this Urban Region Study.

And what we said is let us forget ~~e past, let us forget the old Act, let us forget all of the past and let us t-~ to look at it from the point of view of what is good !or the future- And ~~e minister said this 1 a lot of new things in this bill. And, therefore, I would say, Just because it was in the old bill, just because

November 16, 1979 Tape :.132 PK - 2 }f.,r. Stirlinq: we treated people - he mentioned, for e~~~ple, in the new bill, that we are not goL~g to imprison someone for his debts. Fine. this is in the same rights of an individual, the right of the individual to submit his case, there is no appeal ur.der The Municipal Act. !f the minister says tomorrow,let us say ~allace House, when he was a ... er'lo,er in Deer ~ke Council - AN HCN. MEMBER: MR. STIRLING: as an ex"I"'T""le - AN HON. ME. "mER: MR. HOUSE: MR. STIRLING: AN !iON. ~ER: MR. STI!U.!NG: the Deer take council. 'lou cannot. use his name.

No, I am using it as an example, •..rallace House A point of order. You cannot refer tc· a memter by his name. I am not referrinq - okay I will accept that. Refer to him as Tom Jones. Let us say t~At Tom Jonestwas a ~ember of And let us say the minister said to Tom Jones, "That you cannot: - I am dismissing you - within t:~'O years you !"lave no appeal to this,and you cannot go back to the people of Deer Lake and ask for them to judge whether or not: you have been a good :::ouncillor." A.~d, I think, ~.

Speaker, that if the government does not agree to change this, the Federation has requested that: it be changed, if the government: does nee agree to change this one item , they are saying that all the =est: of it really does not make any difference, because we want to retain for ourselves the right to dismiss and say, within two years you cannot even go back to your people.' If you cannot ae least make that ehange 1 then what is the purpose of the debate? obviously a change that should be made. That is MR. ~1\PY: The next thing they 'Jill be doing it with members of the House. MR. STIRLING: That is right.

That is right. It is just as important. r used eo be a councillor and as far as r am concerned t:he rights of a councillor, a community councillor, the rights of any Newfoundlander to submit his ease to the people who electe~ hi~ should be an absoluee right, Let the people decide. r£ he is a scoundrel, t;..~en 2839

November 16, 1979 Tape 1132 ?K - 3 Mr, Stir~ ina: they do not have to put him in. Let the people decide. TrUst t.l'le people. The people elec<:. scoundrels as ·,.;e can se~ now from the June lB<:.h. election. Rogues and scoundrels. !1't'. STIRLING: ~. Speaker, ~~ere is another

section which will be welcomed by old age pensioners. There is a

section in which old age pensioners will not have to pay ~unicipal poll tax, the new FOll tax. SOME RON. 11E..'-!BERS: Ch, oh! MR. STIRLING: !-l.r. Speaker, may I have order? MR. SPEAKER CllAIP.DI ' The member !>.as the right: to be heard in silence. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, the old age pensioner is nee qoi~o 'tO be forced to pay FOll tax, depending on t.l).e income. !.f his only income - he is not: going to be !creed to pay poll :ax. However, t.he gover:'.t!tent should consider in the same sense as they are now going to ~ay for social assistance, that in many of these communities L~ Newfoundland, 2840

november 16,1979 Tape ~to. ll33 Ali-1 MR. STI.RLIHG: ~any of the residents are old age pensioners who have no o~~er source of i~~e. so ie is great for the government to take t.'lat responsibili!:".! off the hands of ~~e old age pensioners. Great! aut is it fair to council, is is fair to the council unless we get back to that point t!lat I made earlier, is it fair to ~~e council unless you give a grant, unless you pay as you are going to pay for the social assistance people?

Ar.·l time t.'"tat the goverrur.ent w.::.nts to b~: big about it and so&y, okay,we are not going to force any class of citizen. to pay something he cannot affo::d to pay, that is great. But t..~e government has an obligation to give t.'"tat municipality t.~e lest revenue. A::d I would suggest that th.S !f".inister consider this when we look at it. Regional COuncil. Mr.Speaker, that regional council, that ...,hole

section of the act dealing with regional eouncil 1 in my view,should be removed in its present form because it takes all the responsibility, all t.'"te authority of this House of Assetr.bly and passes it over to t."le Cabi.."tet. Now, when t."le minister introduced it, when the minister introduced it he said, t."lis is only enabling legislation • I am not against reqional Council. I am not !.gainst ?eqional Government but I t."link that the decision is such an important one it should be r.tac!e by this House of Assembly. Let the qoverrur.ent do all their hcmewerk. Let u.s get a.ll the feasibility studies done.

Let us do all the cor.sultitlg but let us bring it back to t.~is P.ouse of Assembly tecause it is an important act and it should be done in this P.ouse of Assembly. The minister when he introduced it said,'Ch, it is just enabling legislation! Well, do you know what is ineluded in that enap!ing legislation? Do you know what is included in t."lat enabling legislation- that every municipality and the city of St. Johes and t.lte eity of Corner !Srock should knew?

What is included in that enabling legislation is that Cabinet can give the authority to a regional council. t.ltey can set it up first, ~"ley can give the authority to a regional ::::onncil to take over ...,hatever assets a municipality has and not pay compensation~. 2841.

November 16,1979 Tape He. 1133 All-2 MR. STIFLING: That is in t.;is ac't, that is being slipped ~;rough. And, Mr. Speaker, that should not be done. That should not be allowed. ~his is to? imporeant a :Atter to be left to the Cabinet whic..; appoint all the members to t.he regional council. do not have to consult - AN P.CN. MEl$E:R:: . Cpon election. MR. STIRLr.tG: No, appoint it says here. !t says •appoint' in the act. Appoint all the members to the regional council. Does it 'Len.? MR. STIR!..!!-!G: Yes. I am not going to use cp !ive ~~nutes of my time. 7hat is the only t.;ing. Will you give ~e ti:ne to look t.;at up? rut RON. 1-!E!-mEP.: Sure, By leave. M:!'.. STIRLING: Okay. 2842

november 15, 1979 Tape No. 1134 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: Could I have a !ew words about La?oile district, Sir, while I am waiting? MR. STIRLING: Mr. 2peaker, 3 .1.3, ''Lieutenant-Governor i."l Council may, oy order, designaee and. eha.nqe the number or proportion of a regional council ~~at is to be appointed or elected at large or to represent wards.,.

Where thtU:a are to be appointed counc:iUor.s the Lieutenant-Gove.nor in CoWlc:il may :nake such appo.1.ntments, and such councillors are cot required to be elig.l.ble to be nominated or e1eceed as a councilJ.or under part.~ Now, we can get into a debate about clarifying the act and we can do it when we get to ~"le clause by clause study. MR. MOORES: And the minister did not even do it. MR. STIRLING: When we get to the ciause by clause study - Mr. Speaker, what ! said was - MR. NEARY: Dicta'torship. MR. STIRLING: - the Cabinet can decide to set up a raqiona.l council.

The Cabinet can decide to appoint t:.hat council. MR. WINDSOR: Tnat l.S not true. MR. NEARY• !t is ':.r'.Je. MR. S"I'!RLING: The Cabinet can t.~en decide - MR. MOORES• He just read it to you. MR. STIRL!!lG: The Cabinet can then decide under this act, without coming back to this House of Assembly, to do some stupid things. Now1 the Cabinet has done many stupid t.ltings in the past without reference to this House of Assembly and I suggest that the House of Assembly should not allow them to hlake those kinds of errors.

And what we have is a situation in which tha: autilority that t.ltis House has granted· this House if we pass this,will ;rant t.1.e authority to t.1.at regional council in t.1.eir first: year, when they are an appointed regional =ouncil, to acquire any of the asse~ of a municipality without compensation. That is right. MR. STIRLING: An absolutely unacceptable k~nd of 4pproach. 2843

November lS, 1979 Tape No. 1134 NM- 2 MR. S'l'IP.LING: Mr. Speaker, t...~ere are a number of ot...~er points that my colleagues will be bringing up as they get into the detail. .t think - how much time do I have 7 By leave. MR. STIRLING~ By leave. Oh, well. In that case, Mr. Speaker, let me go back to this concept again of this act, the concept of the act ~~t says we are now going to give autonomy to the councils. We are now going to let the councils make up their own mind. There is a

section in the act which says the councillors can decide whether or not councillors or the mayor should be paid a salary 1 .t think e...,_o next ::t...::-::.ion says subjec<c. to am.ount:.s t:o be set by t.he Cabinet, and r think the miniseer !las already said t.~at no such salary range at the present ti..IDe is available. !s that right? MR. WINDSOR: Under the existing legislation there is provision for payment of such amount.s approved by Cabinet, th.ere were never any amounts approved.

Under t.l-tis act there will be regulations set depending on t:.he verf si:e and financial via..oillty of the community 1 so that within cert~~ ranges ~,e councils may decide to pay ~emselves~ So there will be guidelines establ~shed by regulations. MR. STIRLING: MR. WINDSOR: you know ~ery shortly. :iR. STIRLING: But they are not established as yet.

No, but they will be by t.he time tile act- Okay, well I think the minister makes the point and ! t.hink the government, I think th.e minister in the first place and the government and obviously the civil service have to gee u.seci to tile concept of this act which is Ulat you are going to transfer tha t..'"""tlst to the people who elect the councillors and you sec your own lludqet. Mr. Speaker, in t.l-tat context, then, I th.in.k thae you should go back and :nake a change in this act, that does not require unanimous consent.

In order for councillors to decide to pay themselves, or to pay the mayor, it requires everybody on council to agree. Now,~~at is completely against everytlting we know as a democracy. It is like this House of Assembly having 2844

&ovember 15, 1979 Tape No. 11.34 NM - 3 MR. STIRLING: eo agree unanimously on anything. AnQ there we are no different.. So it has to be 100 per cent. MR. WINDSOR: To defer the reading of minu"Ces, by uanimous consent - MR. STIRLIIIG: MR. WINDSOR: House. MR. STIRLING: MR.. WINDSOR: MR. STIRLING: Pardon. It requires unanimous consent:. of ehe On salaries? No, to defer the reading of minutes. Onanimous consent in this cont:.ext that says that it requires it to be 100 per cent. M..tt. NEARY: MR. MOORES: MR. STIRLING: MR. NEARY: Leader agreed? MR. ST!RLING: very much. The point is t.lotat we say By leave.

He has leave, Mr. Speaker. He was given leave by Five minutes. All right five minutes. Is the House Five minutes is satisfactory. Thank you Mr. Speaker, let us get back to t:.he point. Z845

November 16, 1979 Tape UJS EC - l MR. S'l'IRLI..~G: to a particular :nunicipalief, "You set your own budget. The minister does not have to say ie, you answer to the people who elect you. Now, part of that bUC.qet should be to decide whether or not they wish to pay salaries to councillors or mayors, but it requires 100 per cent. So I would suqqest that you review this and bring it down to two-thirds as 10u have everywhere else in it. Why should that salaries question be put up as somet..~ing to be looked at and that has to have 100 per cent?

Nothing else in t..'-te budget requires lOO per cent, and there will always be on cotm.cll somebody wealthy anough that he can make polltieal points by saying, 'Oh, I c1o not:. need the lllCney.' Because - SOME HON. ME.'iBERS' MR. S'l'Im.ING: He had passed his eheque back one Oh, oh! I am just maki.ng the point that no one person should be able to hold up any matter on the budget.

If we say that we are e::cpec:1:inq t.lotem. to be responsible, do not forget th.at this council that we are t.a.l.ki.ng about which is going to set up, the budget has 1 to qo back to the people who eleceed them, and if they are satisfied that they are prepared t.o put their political. fut.ures on the line, that. should lle left to t..'lat council. So the 100 per cent point, Mr. Speaker, should be c.'lanqed. I ..,ill conclude now, Mr.

Speaker, witil one fina.l point that I do not think hu been cleared up to the satisfaction of the mu:nic:ipali ties ancl that is this- whole question of taxing people like Newfoundland W.gh.t. and Power, the million d.ollar a month boys. 'Ihere is a raquest to the minister to sort that out so that people can get: - there is provision in the act that business tax be buecl on qross revenue but it is not very stra.igh'tforwa.r-tl. It does not i.tld.ic:a.te that it is based' on the qross revenue eollec:t.ed in that area or in t..'lat loc:at.ion.

And that. is the lAst point. that on behalf of the municipalities, I would like to bring to the a.ttention of t..'le government. All of the points, Mr. Speaker, '!hat I have brought up in the last blo days, are points which have been made 2S46

Nov.mber 16, 1979 Tape 1135 EC- :Z !-I.R.

STIRL.ll~G: eo t..'le minis~r by variou.s members of municipal.ities from. time to time over the last number of years or have been included in resolutions, and in the consultation that I knov t..l-te milti.ster !DUSt now have., I llope that ha will call for ac:ld.itiona.l. requests for coiZIIIll!nts f::om tll1.Ulieipalities t:lu:ouqhout Newfounclland,of all levels, and that when we get into tile clause by clause, I hope that he will have the good news that ha has been able to make these amendments to t:hl.ngs that may, U> this House of Assembly 1 be relat.ively minor, but they are veey important to the taxpayers in t:.b.ese communities.

And in these days, wb.en we se-. to be intent on taking a policy that we are going to force people to d.o th..inqs !:ly increasing t.heir costs, it is the same old thinking that said, 1 If we d.riva the priea of liquor h.iqh enough, people vUl not buy liquor - drive the price of eobacco high. enough. and they will not buy tobacco, 1 I heard t:.'le Minister of Mines and Energy {Mr. Bury) on eelevision last night expound that same theory. He lamented t..-,_e fac': that we now no longer fual our furnaces vi th. coal.

Atui he said it sort of b.appenad and b.e c1id not even n.otiee it was happening, t..'lat &ll the coal. went out of existence., and that:. now the poor consumer - tne wbcla problem. tha.e we have is caused by this consumer that &llcwed these things eo happen .. This act is t&k:ing the same kind. of approach to modern municipalities by saying, •we. a...,.... going eo force you to put in property tax.' And at the same time, in these areas, the people are qo.ing to be paying hiqher and higher fuel coats, hiqher and b.iqher electrical costs..

I sugqest that the minister should find out from the communities wb.at their o::umr:ents are on t..'ti.s bill. befora it finally passes into law. SOME !:iON. ME."lBE&S: MR. SPEAlCER; (Baird) om. MABSl!l>.IL• 'thank you, Mr.. Speaker .. Hear, hear~ 'rhe b.on. the Government itou.se t..eader. Mr.. Speaker, 2847

~ovember 16, 1979 Tape ~to. 1136 50 - 1 This i.:;, ~tr.

Speaker, t.'1e :lost. forward piece of legislatiOn affect.L~g ~unicipal government, as a matter of fact, one of ehe more forward and progressive pieces of legislat:ion t..l"..J.t has coc:e beiore t:.b.is House in quice some time and I would like to join, not: just with t...~e :necbers on ::his side of tr..e House but wit:h t.he !-layers and Municipalit.ies Federation of Newfoundland in congratulat:ing the ::U.niste:r on t."le hard -...'Ork :..'lat: he bas done and the real incisive understanding of municipal operations in this Province which he has so well evidenced by this act iwel!. This act, :tr.

Speaker, strer:gi:."lens local government. rt is

an act which, ~ a great degree, brings into effect the recommendations of ~~ ?~yal Commission on Municipal Gove-"'"tlment. and it will go a long way in Ulis Province in st:rengt...'":.ening t.~e .u:n of local governments in the Province of SewfOundland.. anci serengthened t."ley need to be.. A province or a coun~J or an area cannot function and !unction effectively wit:."lin t.'1e clemoncr3.tic~ context unless tr~re are strong local ;overnments.

The history of ~:e...,foundlanc! with respect to its local governments has shown ~~at it has not progressed as quickly as local government in :lewioundland ought :o have progressed when you consider the exeant and the span of the history of this Province. This observation was made way, way back, many years ago in the Am.u.lree Report in 1930. The t.mulree Repore has come in !or quite a bit of discussion and .refe.r9nce from time to ti.me during t.1.is first session of tnis Assembly. It was mentioned in the Throne Speec."l. I suppose that was t.~e mai.n reason why it cot1.es up.

The hon. the m&r.IJ:;er for the Strait of E:elle Isle (Hr. ::. Roberuo}, from ti.m.e to time, has drawn issue with cite -..ork of t.,at Report, wieh the objeceivity of it and he has called it, r t.~ink, a white• '"'ash or he has indicated that it is - :.tR. £. ROB£RTS: A hatchet job I think ! called it. 2848

November 16, 1979 Tape ::;o. 11.36 SD - 2 I Ceg you.r pardon .. A hatchet job. I sort of draw issue wi~~ h~. on that. I think that, a.lt.bough we do not want :.0 get into a discussion today on the Amulree Ref?rt:., I only made reference to it :;.ecause it a.lso made reference to the fact that. local government.s . ...,ere not. very mat:ure in t.heir develo!?f!lent at t."lar. p.u:ticula..r period of time.

I do think,:::yseU:,t..~t many of the obser.rations t..i.at were :na.d.e i.."l t.lte i\mul.ree :teport '-'tere quite valid ar.d quite true. r t..i.ink that the hen. atetlber, from time to time, ':!1A'J be repeating observations t.i.at were made eo him by older people in the Province wit!l respect. to t.i.e Am:ulree Report but ! did not. lio,re in t..i.03e days neither dill the han. geneleman •. MJi. E. ROBERTS: The hon. gentleman (inaudible) I expect is repeating observations '-Jiti.ch were made to h.iJn from time t.o t.i...-ne.

Yes, but I am judging it in relation to the report and after that report susper..d.ed our self-government in this Province.

And I observe the way in .. wnich, ..,.hen we took ~p the cudgel again of self-government, after l9491 t..'lere were negot.iations , t.."lat peopleused to say 1:0 l:l.e and r would agree t....,at you could read that report, you could almost close your eyes ar.d you could see history real.ly repeat.ing itself because there were many, many s~arities,part.icularly in the l9SOs 1 whi~~ leads me to believe that the observat.ions contained in the Amulree Report ~~oGre a bit truer and more correc't.ly reflected the state of Newfoundland at that time than has been indicated by t.ne hon .. member.

Sut l;e that as it may, I suppose we can de.ba te that until thu cows come home. MR .. E. ROBERTS: The t.a:w Society should. have us down to do a Pun e.~ and Judy show for them. l<'.R .. <~. MRSal'\Lr.: on that. particular - because I thir:.k it is a very interesting inquiry. Really, that particular report was a very important one 2849

November 16, 1979 Tape No. ll37 ow - l HR. W. MARSHALL: in our history and whether or not the condemnations that are contained in every page are justified or not I think merits some inquiry at the presen_t time because_ and also an inquiry if they are true as to whether or not they have not continued and - MR. f!. ROBERTS: The hon. gentleman and I can agree that we should learn from our past whatever - we may differ to what the lessons are but we both agree we should learn from our past. HR. W.

MARSHALL: But be that as it may, Amulree report or no 1 I think that ~~e history of municipal government in this Province indicates that it has not developed as strongly and as dramatically as one might expect with a country of a history of 400 and 500 years such as we have. I do believe, that this Bill goes quite a long way towards strengthening this. I think one o! the major points of this Bill, one of the major benefits, is the fact that it gives a great deal of local atrtcnozny to the municipal councils themselves. And this, of course, is very, very necessary.

Before, budgets.of the councils, all budgets had to be approved by the depart=ent. The minister, in his wisdom 1 has indicated in this particular Bill that the municipal councils will now be able to formulate and aetermine their own budgetary requirements, make provision for them with respect to t~eir revenues and their expenditures. And it is only at such point in time as a council gets in troubla,that there is to be a report to the minister and then the minister takes a hand in that particular situation and so it should be.

But I think that this is one of the strongest measures in the Act itselt and one of the principle measures to strengthen municipal government in this Province. It is long overdue and it is one that:I know~ will be received and implemen'ted and tn its implementation there is going to be difficulty, there is going to be a great deal of difficulty because some councils just really are not geared to take the responsibilities that have been case on them by this Act. But whether or not they are able to survive as an effeetive .2850

November l6, 1979 Tape No. 1137 OW .. 2 !iR. il. MARSHALL: body is going to depend upoc how they can react to this Act and in their reaction ~u will get, as I say, a great deal of strengthening of local government in the Province. The hon. member for Bonavista North (H.r. Stirling) brought up in the debate an observation which I expected would be brought up, which one would expect would be brought up by the Opposition; ~ this is with respect to the taxing.

He says that this Bill forces municipalities to increase their taxes. know this is the way it will be billed by certain people who are in Opposition to the Government 1 but this is not the c4se.All this parti=ular Bill does and it says, 1 That if municipal services are provided to a municipality or a local government where SO per cent of the residents enjoy these municipal services, then they should. impose property taxes. :axes should be imposed to pay for these.

Uow, I do not see, really, what is wrong with this, It does not say the level, it does not say that if SO per cent of the residents in an area:. have these services that they must pay ~elusively for these services, by municipal taxes. There is provision, ample provision in the law and ample provision under the ~rants Act for the government to compensate certain ot these municipalities -..rhicn are in a less advantageous position than others. But t..l1e principle of that particular provision, I would submit, is very sound.

I remember not too long ago seeing on television a comment by, I believe it was the mayor or a member of a council on the Great Northern Peninsula* I think it was up in Port au Choix - HR. E. ROBERTS: HR. W, MARSHALL: Port au Choix. HR. E. ROBERTS: Down at Port au Choix. Oown at Port au Choix. No, up in No, one goes down North. 2851

~ovember 16, 1979 Tape No. 1137 OW - 3 _HR. W. MARSHALL: ! see, well when you are up Nor~h you go down but I am down South so ! am going up. MR. E. ROBERTS: Well, the minister is either up or d.own anyway. MR. W. MARSHALL: In any event, this gentleman from Port au Choix was on television - !iR. E. ROBERTS t MR. W. MARSHALL: You go out West ir. Stephenville. - and he was heralding the fact that if they were required to impose any taxes at all 1 that he was going to resign. Now I cannot really - :-tR .. STAGG: He was probably a Liberal. 2852

Novet'!'.ber 16 ,197'? Tape !'fo. 1138 MR. !1.1\PSHALL: I Co not know what he was. He probably was. He certainly was emoting Liberal - A.'t Han. :.1n'!BER: He is no Liberal today t."lough. I do not know o,.rhat he was. He was certainly emoting Liberal philosophy an"f"'ay. 9ut even the staunehest Tory from titr.e to titr.e has an abe ration in his t."lought:s. This is probably the situation. !!ut in any event - :,...'¥ HCU.

ME'!iBER: {Inaudible) ~e ln!!UI\be:' fOr Staphenville(Mr. seaqg) (inaudible) If he is a Tory I am in sympat.~y with hi.ttl. but I am not in syr::pathy with :.'"l.e hen. gentleman's remark at this _?articular ei:r:e. !!R. ROBEPl'S : gentleman's remark. !-!R. ~:RSHALL: what? ~ R. PO'BERTS: mayor of Port au Cboix ! believe. MR • ."!APSHALL: !1P.. F!!BERTS : The hon.-n:inister means t.'"te What did I say? The hon. He was referring to the The hon. gentleman, Yes. He is an hon. gentleman, I am sure, but he is not an hen. gentleman in the House sense. MR.~HAI..L: honourable fell~. MR. roBERTS: 'les.

MR. l".AP.SHAU.: Well, as I say he is a very In all ways honourable, As I say he is a very honourable fellow if his political ~ersuasion is as has been represented. But I do not agree with the statement which he makes because if at least fifty per cent of t."te services are being enjoyed, why should there not be some eon tribution by the local area towards these services the.msel ves ~ And th.is is all this provision indicates. If you have two neighbouring 2853

November 16,1979 Tape ~ic. 1138 !!P.MAPSP.ALL: ecmmunities, as we have nei;~~curing communities all over Newfoundland, one paying its property ta.-< anC having services, water and seweraqe and the other alongside it not paying tax but still enjoying water and aewerage,what it means is that it is really double taxation for those peop!.e in the ccnmml.ty whic..i., in fact 1 is paying water taxes.

W"hy should the m~ers in community A pay all of ~~e cost of ~i.e water and sewer3ge in community B'2 Nh!! should tb.ey, if maybe in community A ~i.e}' may not have water and sewerage ~i.emselves ~~d ~i.ey have to pay it to community E throuqh incoll'.e tax? They tr.ay hao;e 'Nater and sewerage in cottttnunity A and t.i.at means tb.at t.i.ey have to pay double taxation themselves.

So it seems to me to be really manifestly unfairw I expect t.i.is act to be attacked,if it can be attac.'ted,•..,hic:h I do not think it can b'e in a reasonable manner, but r expect it :.o be savagely attacked by ~~ers of t.i.e Cpposition 1 pub!icl~by atterepting to give the innuendo that the hen. member for Bona vista t:ort~ {J .Carter) has given, to the effect that this is an atter.pt to force the municipalities to increase an::! i:rpose taxes. It is not that, it is an a.et,as I say,to strengthen and manifestly strer.g~~en, I would suggest 1 local goverr.ment in t..~is Prcvince.

That is what ':.::e~· will say and t.i.at is what t.."le opening shot from t.."le: Opposition - the hen. me:r.ber for Bonavista Horth (Kl:. Stirlinq) indicated a.e t.he t.ime 1 that this is the line of attack that t."ley are taking. But th.is provision in the aet, I think, is a responsible one and the government has no hesitation whatsoever of standing co~pletely behind this provision anC t.."le implementation of th.at provision itself. There are other matters - I am glad the bon. me~r.ber for t.aPoile {Hr.!teary) came hack because, t know, he will probably make a few comments. !o!.R.

ROB'E:RTS: I ~i.ink he can te persuac!ed to, MR. ~.ARSHALL: I am quite sure he can. 2854

november 16, 1979 ':'ape !!o. 1138 AH-3 !-1R. NFA~: Is the hen. gentle:r.an inviting- me to .make a. few coUU~~ents? 1-'.R. ~RSHALL: In due course. Yes. !n due course. Inviting me? I am into somethir.g now that the hen. gentleman, I know, will probably make a few comments en. One of the itetr.s in this act th.at t."'te hon. merr.ber did not bring up is - and how this also goes to strengthen municipalities, is that t."'tis aet extends the operation of t.~e Putlic T~nders Act which was irnplementec! by this governmer.t - [AN-HOU...ME¥.B£-R1 MR.- !o'JlRSF.A!.L: AN BON .MEMBER MR.

MARSHALL : Hear, hear! - to the municipalities. Oh, oh! Oh, yes. Very, very closely followed. All t."'tings in bir'"-'1, as they go from birt."'. to maturity ~ave a difficult road to follow as ~~ey go. MR. ROBERTS ; And they decay as does the government. }-'.R. !A.APSFALL: They are not decayed. Right now they a.re in the full force of their a.dulthooc! and t.."'tey are very, very strong and very viable and ver; CepenCable Public tenders .!\ct. !-f.R. ROBERTS: Well, how can you tolerate t."'te member for 9onavista South (Mr.Morgan) in t.lote Cabinet'? He has admitted breaking it.

He has acl:nitted under oath, breaking it. This particular bill i tself 1 I would like to draw to the attention of the House extends ~~e provisions of the Public Tenders Act to the municipalities of this Province and that in itself , I thini:., justifies the amenCment to ~~e act itself even if the other provisions did not. The Public Tenders Act is applied to the municipalities, t.~ey must award, they must call for 2855 -------·-

November 16, 1979 Tape l.!J9 PK - 1 Mr. Marshall: public tende:s. In the event that there is for a le~itimaee reason, to be an award to other than the lowest tender or the highest bidder,whatever the case may be, this can be done but it can only be done after reference to the ~~ister of Municipal Affairs (~r. Windsor}. M..l:l., ROBERTS: (.Inaudible) Cabinet. MR. MARSHALL: Well 1 the Minister of Municipal Affairs will act through ~~e Cabinet,as all ministers in the government act through the Cabinet itself. MR. NEARY': MR. ROB£RTS: MR. !>I.ARSHALL: That is what 'Morgan' said.

That is what 'Morgan' says ~o. aut this,as I say, this greatly, ! think, strengthens the operation of Municipal Government.itself,in that The Public Tenders l\ct is extended ~ it. It also extends the provisions of the conflict of interest provisions to the council itself, which,I think,is very good. Another item that,I think, t should draw to che attention of the House is that for the first ti.me L"l any kind of eleceions in this Province, ! believe I am correct in saying it certainly is for the first time, proxy voting is going to be permit't.ed. Proxy voting is - MR.

ROBERTS: The first. time in any election under t.'le centro! of the Province,cer't.ainly. Oh, yes - well that is what I mean. Proxy voting iS being implemented here. It goes along wieh necessary alte=ations, along the same line as is provided under The canada Elections Ac:.

But here again it is a matter that, I think, t."l.e deparement is going to have to concern itself very much about, that when t.'le elections are called in municipalities, that they are fully aware of the procedures that are to be implemented with respect to proxy voting because, n~er one, it is a new met.hod of casting votes .ar.d, number bolo, you know, it does lie open the possibility of an abuse. But the Act, as I say, the proxy provisions of the Act have been looked at very carefully, have been maOe as strong 2856

November 16, 1979 Tape 1139 PK-2 as ~~ey possibly can be, and, as ! say, with necessary al~erations as are required in order to alter the application of it from t....'1.e Federal Gavernment to the Xunicipal Governments themselves, it follows along the same t:::end. Now, Mr. Speaker, there were a couple of other items mentioned by the member fer Bonavista North (Mr. Stirling) when he was, as the principal spokesman for the Opposition, addressing himseLf to the bill.

I know the hen. minister will address himself to them when he closes the debate. sut there ·....-ere one or t·.ro other instances that I would like ~o note or one or two ot..'1er observaeions that he made 'Chat I would like to draw to the aetention of the House, and that waa he seemed to get very exorcized over the fact thae in the evene that a regional government or a regional council was established, it did not provide for compensation for payment of assets taken over by the municipalities themselves. This is an argument which was used - AN HON • ME..'!B ER : MR. RCBE.~TS: MR.

MARSHAlL: Fifty-eight I think, is it? !t is a big t.'tick one. - at another time by the City of St. John 1 s when it was c:om~emplating putting regional govern.-nent in the greater 5~. Jobn 1 s area. ! just would like eo, in dealing with that obser..ration, I know the minister wlll deal w"ith it in :nuch more detail, I would just. like to ask the question, you know, where does t.he money come !rom? If you pay for the assets of a regional council - i£ you force a reqianal council t.o pay for the assets, where does the money come from? It comes from the people. It comes from che same people in the reqion.

So the same people in the reqion or a greater portion of t.ltem would have to pay, in affect, for the services twice. Now, this is what the hen. gentleman really wants, when he says, they should pay !or compensation. Just take the hypothetical case of the regional government in the Ci~y of St. John•s, which is the place, as Your Honour knows, that I am most familiar with., that place, that good place East of the overpass. In t:.b.at particular instance, if you apply regl.onal government there to the City o£ st. John 1 s and the areas of the City of 2857

November 16, 1979 Tape 1139 PK - 3 Mr. ~.arshall : St. John's and you require compensation for services as 'Nas suggested by councillors '<lhen t:hey •.,.ere criticizing the intent of government with respec~ to it a few years ago1 really :::-ou would have- surely you could get the regional government to pay the City of St. John's for the water and sewerage. Whe.re does the money come from? It is going to come in taxation, reall~ from ~~e citizens of the City of St. John's, the same citizens who have already paid for it before. so you pay it to the City of St.

John's, it could be any other city, and what do they do with it? You know, do they apply it for the water and sewerage ser•tices that are in there? No, because they have been paid for before. So what do they use it for? What is the purpose? Why does the hen. member want to have double taxation because that is,in effect,wr~t he is advocating when you say that you pay for compensation. If there were any arqument for compensation because one area had more services than another - before thee was to be any payment made you would jolly well want to know what 2858

November 16, 1979 Tape No. 1140 NM- 1 MR. MARSHALL: was going to happen with ~he money when it was paid; was it to be ~eC to pay off debts ~~a~ had been incur~ed over a period of time? Is it to be expended for the pu_~ose of ereceing huge majestic buildings, that ~~e people will be saddled with even greater debt:.s as t..~e time goes ont' So that is what the hon. gentleman is asking for, Mr. Speaker, ,,..hen he asks for compensation, it seems to me, to be paid to the regional council.

On che posi~ion of salaries, you know.the points when we got down eowards l:he end, and ! think the hon. gentleman was really striving to find t..~ings to criticize as is the bent of :..~e Opposition, wanting things to criticize rather t..,an being conce~ed wi~, the subject of the act itself.

I did hear t.~e hen. member compliment the hon. minister, for instance 1 for bringing in this particular act which, as I SaY, enhances and strengthens local government in this ?rovince, as anybody who has any ~nowledqe of local government at all knows, as a mat~er ui fact anyone can read the ac~ itself and compare it with the other provisions. Now, on ~e position of salaries, r think it is qu~~e reasonable to provide that salaries are to be paid ~o councillors only when 100 per cent of ~~e membership agrees.

Because the reason for it is that you can get your prima donnas in your group and it gives the one or two dissenters a political arm ~~at r thirJt is most unfair and I do not see anything wrong with it at all. It is noted that this is the first time ~,at there has really been any effective measure in

an act to provide for compensation or payment of salaries ~o councillors . themselves. Now,all in a..ll, Mr. Speaker, I thin.k_as I say, that this is a very forward act that has been brought forth by t:i:e minister and brought forth by the gOvernment. It strengthens ':.,e councils. It leaves the formation of the councils, the way in which they are to be set up, on a much more democratic basis. It provides for feasibility studies and it provides for an assessment of whe~,er or not an area should 2859

November 10, 1S79 Tape No, 1140 NM • 2 be withL~ another area. It allows for t.i.e more orderly structuring of gove:::unent, the more orderly carrying on of government. As each local improvement dist.::ict, or each local government, each municipal council gets stronger the whole body politic becomes stronger. Before, under t.~e piecemeal legislation that was available, and it was piecemeal legislation, it was long overdue to have a Municipalities Act here. The previous act was, numoer one, wr:..tten in language which is very di!hcult for many of ~~e councillors to understand.

This act has been written in s~plistic .Language, or as simple as it possibly can be ar.d at tne same time expresses the intent that is desired. Before, there had been so many amendments to the act:. itself that it was rather di:f!.cu..t.t to follow. So a consolidat:..on of tne act was long overdue. But ~~s is net just:. merely a consolidation of

an act, t.ltis is the :nos't for<-~ard step in municipal government t.~at::. has been taken by any government in th.is Province since t.'1e idea of local goverr.ment '"as conceived. The ideas of the operation of local governments has manifest..t.y streng"thened and tne m.J.nister is to be comp l.J.men ted on. it. Al..1. we can hear from the Opposition , and a.J.l we ever do hear from the Opposition is criticism., I suggest, t-'.r.

Speaker, if t."ley want eo put ·eneir obser.rat:.i.ons to t."le test, that tney mignt g~ve a lit:tle bit. more t.nought to Weir observations if they wish to be rea~ly treatea seriously anQ show a litt:le ~it mere substanuve obser.rations t.i.an were g~ven by t:he mett10er ior Bonavist:a North. · This is a verj torwara bi..1.l. It is one that is going to strengt..'len municipal government and.

I think that the ~ster himse..t.f is to be highly compliment:ed tor not only the way in which he presentea it Dut for the act itself and it is to be borne L, t:U.nd 'that: t.i..ls act:. has been entnusiastically endorsed at. the ?ederation of Mayors and Municipal.lties in Gander, which to ~ large ext:.ent,nas oeen the result:, as ! say, of a min.lster wno has a great sens.lt::.ivity to municipal governmene, ~~ows what he is talking 2860

Novemoer 16, L979 Tape No. 1140 NM - J about and has che ability to nave an appropriate dialogue wi~~ tne various goverrJments conce=ned. So I wholehear'!:edJ.y endorse ana support t.ne princip~e of this b~ll and feel that it will qo, as I say, a qreat way 1 for the reasons I have al.ready given, a long ways towards the strangtheninq and fostering of local government in tills Province. 2861

November 16, 1979 SOME HON. M£l.f.BEBS: MR. SPEAKER' (Simms) MR .. NEARY: Tape ll4.1 EC - l Hear, hear! The hen. the member for I.aPoile. Mr. Speaker 1 we are al.l very surprised to hear that the hen. the Gove.rnment House Leader (Mr. Marshall) endorses this bill. What a surprise! That must be a piece of news, Sir, th.at will go out loud. and clear ac:::oas this Province today, that the hon. gentleman endorses the bill b::ouqbt in by his colleague, the Miniseer of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. N.

Windsor), when in ac:t.ual fact, Sir, after folloving very closely what the Government House t.eac!.er had co sa..y, I doubt very much if the gentleman took ~~e trouble to read the bill. I doubt very much/ Mr. Speaker, if the hen. gentleman like members on this side of the House, t.ook the trouble to read t..ltat bill. Unless he were getting $lSO an hour !rom soue client, I doubt veey much, Sir, if the hon. gentleman ..,auld bother to browse th.rouqh this bill to see what it was all about. AN HON. MEMBER: the bill? MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: Ma .. mc:MS: Have you read the bill? Have you got.

I have the bill here in front of me. (Inaudible). I am only at S7S. MR. NE:Am': Well, t.~en I would say that particular lawyer is probably qood. for SlSO an hour. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I am. not qoing to set rates for the non. qentleman. But: what: I do want t.o say about. this bill, Mr. Speaker, is this, straightaway, that. if the qove%'l'UIIiellt wanted. t.o forc:a A property tax on people. in this Province, they should have bad the courage to say so and to g_o ahead and do it - SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, bear! - and not uy tc do Via the back door what they did not have the courage t.o do via the front door.

Now, q::ant.ed, this is a c::onsollda.tion of all t:..'le acts .. they are. ill.l listeci i.n the back, various acts under the Depa.r1::1ent. of W.ghways, Depa.rt:bene of Health, Public: Oti.llties and. so on. But, Mr. Speaker, as nec::essary as t.h.at 1Jas 2862

November 16, 1979 Tape ll4l EC - 2 MR. NEARY: to be done, it could have been done without forcing ~~e property tax on the people of this Province. It seems tna.t averyt.hi.nq t.hat: this governmant does, Mr. Speaker, e:veryth.inq they have done since l972 is an intrusion in people's lives. They have gone further than any other government t.hat I k.n01o1 of in requl.at:ing the lives of people. We saw

an act the o'ther day that vas - MR. 'I'BCMS: The 1o1orst example. MR. NEA.RY: That is right:, t:.he worst: example of an intrUSion in people's lives. AN HON. KEMBER: MR. NEARY: AN RON. MEMBER: MR. NE.ARI: (Inaudible}. S4~ported it. Supported '<~llat.? {Inaudihle} • Mr. Speaker, I sa.id t.he ot:.ber day .. i! the h.on. the Minist:.er of Healt..'l {Mr. Housel was list.ening, vha.t I said was that there was an injustice in our soeiet.y, and. if the government. wanted t.o correc-e t.lat injust:iee they did not have to punish everybody in Newfounciland.

They did not: tlave to .bring iii a law intruding in the lives of every person in thi.s Province. They did not nave to Co t..ila't.. M.S VERGE:: 'iie. ....al.nady have a law. Oh, listen to !le..,foundland' s a.na\Jer t.o Ja.cquel.ine !C4nnady - 'We al.r1lady have the law. 1 What law do ..,e have? What law? I thouqh't. we were debating a mat.ri.:nonial bUl the other day. Mr. Speaker 1 ~~is bill is the compulsory property tax bill and I hope tha.t the people up over rey shoulder .. AN RON. H£.\!BER: Nobody up ~'lere. No, but they are lis teni.nq.

I hope tha.e 'Sticky-wic:ky 1 .nd. the others - and, you know, I ba.ve bad a. tendency once i.n a wh.i.le to eri tiei:e the med.ia - I '!.'ti.n..k. the reporting of this session of the House has Oeen the worst ~~at I have ever seen. !t is the worst in l11'f eighteen yeus in t."'le House and. l am starting my eigh.teent.'l year now. No fault of the news peopla because fifteen or tweney seconds is all they are allowed. on a ne\ol'scast. And they write ~~e copy up in the. gallery. I have seen the copy .. they write it, but it never :nakes 2863

November 16, 1979 Tape ll4l. EC - 3 print. But I hope ehat Cespite the fact th.a.t we all b.ave , 2864 ----·----

Nove~Der 16, 1979 Tape No. 1142 NM .. 1 MR. NEARY: had a tenciency to c:ritici:e the press gallery once in a wlti.le, that they will not be deluded by the arqtm:ents put forward by the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Wind.sor) and st:pported a few moments ago by a qentle~r.an who had not rear the hill. I hc;-e they will not be duped into thinking that this is the Magna Carta of the municipalities of newfoundland, ._.hen in actual fact what it is is a policy on the part of t.he government t.o bring in the property tax and I hope that the press will report it as such.. That. is what it is.

Of course,it is a consolidation of the act. !t is a consolidation of the act. ::o question about t.~at. aut t.hat. is not t.he important ra.zci.!ir:.ation. That is not the i~plication of this act. ' The implication of this act is t.hat it makes it compulsory for munici?alities that service a community with fifty per cent or lf'Qre water and sewerage, to impose a property tax. And the other thing is that, as somebody indicated this morning, I believe i't. was rey colleague, the me:r.ber for sonavista North (Mr. Stirling) who made a. magnificent speec."t., absolutely magni!icsnt.

COmpare what the hen. ge:ntlel'l'an said, my colleague from Bona vista North, to what the Govern.oent House Leader said and see who did his homework. Which one did his homework? compare last night if you want to talk about homevork. 'I'he !ti.nister of Mines and Energy (M.r. Ba.rry) on television, Mr. Speaker, being interviewed by Michael Harris You mean the Shah of Moun't. Scio. MR. N"EARY: That is right. Mohalf'llMd, the Shah of Mount Scio, and see who did his homework. All they need are the tu:bans over t.here as I said, Sir, all they can thillrl\. a.bout is oil. But my h-on. friend made a magnifiCent MR.

BARRY: t will tell you there are a'Cr& oily people on tha't. ;ide of the House. MR.~: M.r. Speaker, I would say tha't if a little drop of oil leaked out of a bottom pan in a car in Roddickton the whole Cabinet vould be dcwn there tomorrow. And that is t..,_e only way they are going to 2865

~ove~ber 16, 1979 Tape !lo. 1142 :H·! - 2 !1R • NEARY' : get any results Cown t.'":ere, to send the word up that they spotted a little drop of oil on the ground. MR. SPEAKER (Si.mms): Order, please: I believe ~~e hon. me~ber is aware he is strayit'l.g a little bit from t..lote subject:. at hand. MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Sue I was baited, Your Honour 1 and if I could. just be heard in silence, Sir, ! would appreciate it. ~r. Speaker, I was referring to my han. colleague here, the ~r:.ber for aonavista !iorth {r-t.r.

Stirling) who obviously did his homework, who has the experience, who served. on a council in the capital city of this Province, who has the experience, and who was able to point out to the government the weaknesses in t..~is legislation. Now I wane to repeat again, Sir, r want to repeat just in case there is somebody who did not hear what r said, in case there is somabody who may tnisunCerst:.and what I said, in case there is scmebody who may want to report what I am saying, that this bill is the cott~pulsorJ property tax bill, that is what it is.

It removes t.."le der:ocracy f.rotn the doz:ens and Coz:ens of eotnmunities in thi• Province that are organized.. They can no longer have referendums. The councils can no longer lay c!own the procedure ~o~hereby they ~o~ane to decide whether or not there is goir.g to be a property tax in a cotm~unitj' as has been the tradition ancl the custom in the past. The goverrunent have stepped in and are going to regulate the lives of N'ewfoundlanders, whether Newfoundlanders like it or not. Democracy out the window.

Thti government in futu.."'"e. apparently from the kind of legislation that we have seen brought before ~~s F.ouse, are going to intrude on the lives of every Hewfoundlander. The next: 0' thing they wil.l be bringing in a piece of legislation stating the ntu:il::er of times you can go to th•: bathroom in the run of a day. 'rhat will be the next thing. AN HON. MEMBER: It might be in the bill. MR. !lEARY: A couple of years ago they brought in a - I beg your pardon? AU liON, ME!'.BEP.: It :night be in the bill. 2866

Noverr.ber lO, 1979 Tap~ !lo. 1142 :w - 3 HR. !iEJ\RY: It mighe be in ehat bill. It miqht Ce hidden away somewhere in that bill. A couple of years ago they brought in a regulation you had to get a permit eo pick blueberries, you have to get a licence to cat:ch fish. 2867

!lovember 16, 1979 Tape. No. ll~J so ... l MR. S.. I'I'E.t\...~ : 't'ou cannot go out in t.."le '.oi'OOds any .:lOre. You cannot do c:U.s, you cannot do tha..c. Mr. Speaker, goverr~ent is stepping into t..~e peopleS, ~ives a little too much, regulating peopleS ·Lives too much. There is too much int::usion in the peopleS .Lives and t..'"tis is a.."lother example of t..'oe kind of intrusion that I am talking about that will cause people of t..IU.s Province, :1r. Speaker, to rise up when t..1.ey find the iJ:lplicaticns of this bill.

The people themselves will decide whether they wane a property ea.x, the people will decide it, more t:.han SO per cent., buc under this act:. they ' do not have any choice, they have to take it. They have to li.ke it or lw::p it. I read the act and t.1.e han. gentleman did not read it. And t.'te other thing that th,e act does is give the Cabinet, the Lieu~nt-uovernor in Council. the authority to do something t.h.at was turned down on t.1.e floor of this House and that is to set up regional gove.rrunent. The bill was defeated in tb,is House, it was nee deferred, !ir.

Speaker, the bill was defeated before t.'oe last eleceion. f\nd now the government again is going to do via che back door 'trrlhat they could not do via the front door. And the non. gentleman said to my colleague, t."le rneroher for aonavista :torth (Mr. L. Sti.rling) 1 "Read t.1.e next paragraph, 11 he said, "Read the next paragraph." Well, what. does the next paragraph say. I read it. I will summarize it for the hen •. gentleman.

Whac it says is, "That ·"'h.en the Lieucenant~vernor in Council, the Cabinet, appoints a regional governmene, then within one year t..~ey have to have an election." Tha.c is what it says, "Wich.in one year." tlow, how much damage can be done il"l that: one year? The han. gencle:nan, the goverr.ment are ;oincr to be hal! democracic, we will put it i;; t.1.ere first and then we will let you elect. the members after. Well, that is noc good enough. If t."le hen. gencleman is hanging his reputa.ticn and his hac on !:.hat c!ause thAt he drew 2868.

November 16, 1979 Tape No. 1143 S:l - :2 ~l.tt. S • NEARY: to the attention of QY colleague, then he bet:ter get up again bec.J.;u;e that is nnt >;oing ':0 00 saeisfactorJ to people We live in areas ""'here regional government is going to be esta.blished..,AnC: tilere is no neea of it, there is no need of it. ou:: people have served their apprenticeship since Confederation and ~~ey are ready for full de:noe::a.eo,[ 1:n t.."lis Province.

The hon. qentleman is only going half way, he is qoing to say, "Oh, yes, .,...e will trust you after a year, after a year or so we will trust you." Well, that is what t..~e hen. gentleman is saying. The hon. gentleman makes ~'le appoinemencs for one year - MR. OINN: It might be one year, it might be one day. a.q. s. ~IEA.'I:!.'l; It might be. aut why one day or why one hour or why one second? ""· t.. STIRLING: Just to clarify that point now that I have had a chance to look at it, there is not.'ling that says anywhere in t.~e act that. you cannot have addit.ional people appoi.''lt:ed.

You are only talking al:out t.lte election ·:lf those who are to be elected !:::ut you can vary, change, add tc, ap;.oint and the election is only fer those !:hat have to be elected. So it is misleading for you tc say chat: after one year i:. is all e.J.ect:ed .because :..1-e minister can use his discretion eo appoint, vary, e.hange and do a.ny~'ling and t.."lere is no guarantee anywhere in the act ~~at says at any time t."ley will all have to be elected. I read. it through carefully again. MR. S. ~Y'; That is right, !ir. Speaker, we are all for th.e consolidation of the various aces.

We are all for that. but, Mr. Speaker, why do the minister a.nd th.e government not t...-ust the people? They want to give the ·people responsibility and they do not want to. It is like the old saying, '"You cannot be hal! pregnant.'" Yes, I said, Mr. Speaker, we agree~t..~at the act should have been consoll.d.ated. We agree with that - MR. STIRLING; And letting them set their own budget. !-tR. S. NEARY t - and letting t..'lem set their own budget. 2869' --·---- ---------~

November 16, 1979 Tape t;o. 1143 SO - 3 HR. S. :IE..~'=!.Y: There are a few ;ood things in the act tu~ ':..'ley a.re all overshadowed by the major ra::ti!ications a.nd implications -of this act. My non. friend, the; cember for Exploits (Dr.

TWomey), wno always sits ~~ere, does noc say very muc~ but he is always plugged in to what is qoi:lg on and. whac is being said in the House, how is the bon. gentleman going to explain to the municipalities in his district ~~at ~~~y have to enforce a propert? t.ax whet:her ::.!ley like it or no~1 :-ta.ybe the hen. gentleman does not i."ltend to run anymore, I do not know, maybe he does not ::are but there are people in this Province, in this neuse who care.

There a.re people who believe tna. t the people who live in ~~e municipalities should have the right to determine tneir own f~ture, to lay down their own rules .and regulations, to decide cne kind of taxes t.:,.ey think ti'l.ey should have 28'70

November 16, 1979 Tape 1144 PK - 1 MR. NEJ\RY: in a :nunicipality and not have it forced on them by the tighth ~loor of Confederation Building. Does the hen. gentleman realize that that is what is happening under this bill7 Does the hon. gentleman reali:e that? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudil::'lel • MR. N'I:'-ARY: Pardon? AN HON. :-!EMBER: (Inaudible) expression. MR. !-lEARY: The hon. gentleman is looki."lg at me over there. I am sure that he can see - MR. R. MOQRSS: He ~ill not ans~er it. MR.

NEARY: - that he can see the difficulties and the problems that this bill is going to create, the same as the one we debated the other day. No member should be ashamed or afraid to get up and say ~hat he feels about a piece of legislation going through this House. That is what we wue elected for. I have not heard one member on that side of the House yet say that he objects to the compulsory impleoentation, to the forcing, shoving down the throats of ~ewtoundlanders the property tax, not one of them have said they object to that principle. They are all for it. MR. NEARY: Apparently t~ey must be all for it.

We can only assume that this bill will be rammed through the House in the next few days against the wishes of the Federation of Mayors and Munici~alities that the Government House Leader (.Mr. Marst-.al1) just told us was all in favour of this bill, that the minister had gone out to Gander unlike his predecessor,sitting to his right, he had gone out to Gander and met with the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities and everything was harmonious and sweetness and light.

We pick up the morning paper and we discover t:r.at the Federation of ~yors and Municipalities are kind of browned off with t..lote minister for snea.k.ing this bill into the House unknownst to them. MR. W'niDSOR: MR. NE!AAY: That is the harmonious relationship. Go away! Oh the minister says, "Go away!" Well, the hen. gentleman can read the same as ! can. I suppose, ~e can. 28'71. -------·

:-tovember 16, 1979 Tape 1144 PK .;;, 2 MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman had a call from a mayor, there have been other calls to confederation Building, saying, "How come? Hold it! HOW come you told US that there was going tO be a chance for us to take a look at this bill, to have some breathing space, and you were not going to introduce it until 1980!

And there you are in the November, a month before Christmas, 1979, ~rying to ram the bill through the House "'-~fast as you can, as a divisionary tactic to get people's minds off unemployment, and the cost of liv~,g, and this sort of thing, the high cost of electricity, and the increase in armed robbery, and violence in this Province, to get ?eople's minds off that, ram some legislation through the House, a divisionary tactic on the part of the government. Now, that is the only reason we are here at this particular moment, Mr. Speaker, to put through legislation regulating people 1 s lives.

I think it is shocking. ! t~~k. it is terrible, Mr. Speaker. I pay the property tax, I pay the water tax, mY hon. friend pays it, my hon. friend !or Carbonear (Mr. Moores), and my hon. friend behind ;ne, Bonavista North L."'tr. Stirling) we all pay ~~e property tax. aut the·decision is made not by the government, not down on the Eigh~~ Floor of Confederation Building, the decision is made down on Duckworth Street in city Hall, and if we do not like it we can get our chance, our crack at the mayor and councillors. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: an assessment. the decisions. Assessment. Assessment. That is right..

Well, I just got one recently, so that we· can get a crack at them. But: they make And we know where the decisions are made. But in this case the mayor and the counCillors and the people who live in do :tens piled upon dozens of municipalities in this Province will have no choice, will have no choice but to accept the directive of a dictatorial government, of a Fascist regime, of a regime that would make Mussolini look like s:mall potatoes, the way they are intruding into people's lives. The bon. gentleman thinks their dic~atorial policy is laughable, very funny. Indeed it is funny. Ah, it is very 2872

November 16, 1979 Tape 1144 PK • 3 Mr. Neary: funny indeed. Mr. Speaker, their Xussolini-like attitude is not appreciated

November 16, 1979 Tape No. 1145 ow .. l MR. S. NEARY: by the people of this Province. And what is heralded as a magnificient piece of legislation 1 the Magna Carta of municipal government in this Province, really turns out to be a compulsory Property Tax Act and

an Act to ram regional government down the throats of our people with .. out having a chance to exercise their democratic right of whether they want it_or who ~ay want to se.::v':_onJ.t;_?rt~._!:he_hon.t:ientleiM.n shruqa hia shoulders and brushes it off ,bY .saying, •well, it is only for a year or so, we are only going to appoint these people for a year or so•. And what an insult that is to Newfoundlanders. MR. STIRLING: That is not true, they can continue forever. MR. s. NEARY: Even that is not true, they could continue it forever. They could make appointments over and above the ones to be elected.

What an insult that is to our Newfoundland people. I thought we had served our apprenticeship, Sir, that we ware now ready !or full democracy but apparently we are not. MR. DINN: Who brought in the Metro Board? M.R. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we have the Premier going around this Province telling us that we have to forget the past because be is'born again', he is the leader of a 'born aqain qovernment'.

We make no reference to the past, we are not allowed to talk about Labrador Linerboard, we are not allowed to talk about corruption, we are not allowed to talk about A.B~ Walsh, we are not allowed to talk aboutt this, we are not allowed to talk about Charbonneau Associ; tes, and then the hon. gentleman now asked me a question vbo brouq~tjn the Metro Board? Who? Step forward with 'Peekford'. MR. S. NEARY: Step forward with 'Peckford', am I allowed to answer that, Mr. Speaker, or can we refer to the past at all? Should we forget the past? Sweep all the 2874

November 16, 1979 Tape No. ll4S ow - 2 MR. S. NEARY: corrupt~on and all the mismanage- mant and all the extravagance and wasee,sweap it under the ru~ Sweep it under the rug and step forvazd vith'Peckford'! And this is the way we are stepping forward with 'Peckford~ intrude in people's lives. They think this is all very vall and good! They think it is great to intrude in people's lives to regulate people's lives, to run their daily affairs. Well, Mr.

Speaker, maybe the government feels the people cannot run their own lives, maybe the government feels that the municipal­ ities are not responsible people elected by the people who live in these towns. MR. HORGAN: ( Inaud.i.ble J MR. S. NEARY: This Bill, Mr. Speaker, - the han. gentleman obviously has not read it either. This Bill gives AUt enemy on one hand and takes it away on the other. That is what it does, Mr. Speaker! The hen. gentleman should take the time to read it.

Everythinq is: the minister approves this, the minister approves that, the Lieutenant-Governor in Council does this, the Lieutenant-Governor .tn Council does tb.at. If you a.ra qoinq to give the municipalities aut~, give it to them, no strinqs attached) -.and let them run their own affairs and let the people deal vith them.

Oo not sneak in the property tax and sneak in' regional government under the pretense we are going to consolidate all the Acts and then go out and try to sell it to the Eederation of Mayors and Municipalities.~nd I will be very surprised,I used to be President of that body tor two years, I would be very surprised! I would be very surprised~ Sir, if they qo along: MR. MORGAN: HR. S. NEARY: HR. SPEAKER: {inaudible) sad state of a.f!a.irs. Oh, listen to the king of the J order, please! 2875

November 16, 1979 Tape No. 1145 Ow - J MR. S. NEARY: We are not allowed to talk about public tenderinq, Mr. Speaker, or it might come back to the hon. gentleman. The hon. gentleman qot up and praised up1 praised up the Bill because now they fall under the umbrella of public tendering. Well, we all know, Mr. Speaker, about the Public Tendering Act and what a farce that has turned out to be. Mr. Speaker, what happens i: a municipality does not conform to the Public Tendering Act·? What happens? Is there any penalty in the Act?

It is absolutely toothless! we have had example after example in this Province where ministers have admitted breaking the Public Tendering Act - It is in there, Mr. Speaker, it is in there. The bon. gentle­ man referred to it. It is in there, Sir. -Where min~sters have admitted breaking the Public Tendeiing Act • . MR. :<()R.G:...'f: Who admitted that? .iR. NEARY: other day. The hon. getttle.man ad.mitted. it the 2876

it. MR. ~ORGMT: other guys in the House. MR. m:J\RY: Tape No. 1146 AH-l The hon. gentleman said, yes, ! did I am not saying, 'I', now. There were The hen. gentleman said, I broke ~~e Public Tendering Act but I am absolved by ~~e Cabinet. MR. MORG.A.T<I: I never said that. MR. m:ARY: I beg tour ,?ardon, Sir. And the former Premier will be hauled in or the former MR. SPE:Al-1t: (Si.tr.ms) OrC.er, please! '!'he hen. :ttefl".ber for La.Poile (Hr.Nea.ry), I believe, a little earlier requested to Ce heard in silence. Am I to assume now th~t he is inviting some comments? XR. NEARY: XP..

SP£1\Ji"..:ER: to be heard in silence. e. H£ARY: N"o. I am not inYi ting comments. Then, the hen. member has a right I am merely asking the hen. gencletnan wr~ praised ~~is bill and endorsed ~~s bill,because now it forces the Public Tendering ;_et on municipalities t.~rouqhout ~"l.e Province, what happens to a munici~ality or a mayor or councillor who violates the Public Tendering Act? What happens to him? Does he get a little rap on ~"l.e knuckles? Does he blame it on the Premier? Does he blame it on t."te Cabinet? Say, 'I am absolved. I broke the Pub lie Tendering Act. and the Cabinet knew about it.

They knew about it so, therefore, that makes it right: What right does the Cabinet have to break the law that is made in this Legislature? That is what t.~e hen. gentleman is saying. The Cabinet knew I was breaking t..~e law when under the act. Mr. Speaker, it is the minister- MP.. MOP.Gi\N: On a point of o=der, Mr.Speaker. MR. SP£AKER: A point of order. The hon. Minister of Lands of Forests. MR. MORGAN: The hon. member is looking at me and pointing at me. I assume he is referring to me.as someone who says, 'Look, I have broken t..~e Tendering Act and it is okay because

Tar.e No. 1146 AH-2 t.."te Ca.!=inet at?proved it.' Nh.::tt I have been saying and ! ~ave said so in ~~e ~cbli: Ac:ounts Cc~i~~ee and ! am saying now in ~"te House of Assembly,that it is not t--ue. The hon. gentleman is aware of it. What ! said is that ~"te Public Tendering Act was never contravened. Everything done wi~, regard to awarding extensions cf contracts was - AN RON. !·!E!-!SEP.: MR .. SPEA..l(ER: (Simms) of orc!er. MR. MORGAN: A point of order. The hon. minister has a point ! am ma~i~g a point of crder, M-~. Speaker, if the hen. gentleman from the Burin Peninsula or St.

John's or wherever he is from will keep quite. What I said, Mr. S~eaker, I have said in this House, I have said to a committee of this H~use, that the act was never broken but any action taken in connection wi~"t extensions to contracts was approved :y Cabinet. So the hon. gentleman should be asked to retract from :aking statements which are incorrect, especially when making t."tem about anot~er rr.ember of t."tis House. SOME HCN. !1E:$ERS : Hear, hear~ MR. SP£1\.ttR: (Sitr.

N) I would not consiCer t."tat to be a point of order but merely ~"le minister has taken t;.."l.e ,-::::~r":unity to explain his position as has been Cone many times in ~"le past. The hon. meltlber for La.Poile. MR. NEARY: ~~- Speaker, in conclusion I would like to say that I am all for the consolidation of ~~e local government act. I am all for it.

But I would like to see it done without the minister and the government sneaking in and forcing on the people of this Province t.."le property tax and sneaking in a procedcre whereby they can establish :-eqional goverrunent in this Province without any reference to the people, without giving the people t."lemselves a chance to exercise ~~eir democratic right. 2878

!'!ovel!'.ber 16, 1979 Tape !lo. !.146 There are other ~cod ptovisions in the ac~, Sir, that I Co not have to mention now. !t is a gcoC ~~inq to consolidate all these acts 1 I am all fer it. But let the word ;o out1 let not anybody be f.uped or fooleC. by ete :::.wister and by the government, the real reason !or bringing in this ~ill is to fu.rt.loter intrude in people's lives and to regulate and ru."l people • s lives and to force things on th~m ~"l.at t.."l.ey may or r:ay not want. We should have less of that in future, Mr. Speaker.

The kind of legislation t..lotat I would like to see brought into t..~is House is legislation dealing wi~~ unemployment, t.."l.e cost of living, electricity rates, crime in this Province .I we never :tear al:out it, and various other matters that. are concerning Newfoundlanders eoday a.r.d not ~~is kind of legislation, as necessary as it is. we could consolidate the local goverr~nt act any time we wanted to but certainly let not ~"l.e government try to fool t.."l.e people ~ecause this is an attere:c on the part of the minister and the government to sneak in t..~e property tax and regional government. SOffi: HOtt.

MEMBEPS: Eear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) If the hen. minister Z879

NOV~ber 16, 1979 !-1R. SPEA..l(ER: (:·tr. S~:i) 1-f.R. J. o~m: !:Eb_~S~P~":t.:., Cartor.ear. ~-~~; :·IR. ::r. DI~N: order? Tape NO. ll47 so .. 1 The hen. ~ir.is ter of La. tour ar.d :1ar.power. Nobody stood up. A point of order, t!-.e hon. membe.: for I say ... Does the hen. member have a point of '!es, under normal circumstances, :.tr. Speaker, if ~~e minister yields his place then automatically it comes to a ::el:lber of t.he Opposidon. The minister was a.l:out. to speak and yielded to me at the nicrophone. :.LR. SP.E.V.::R: :.!R. fJ. :·!rlP.SHA.U.: The hen. President of ~~ Council.

That ::1ight be t.l-te hen. member's percept.ion of the sit.uation but the wa.y of O;?eratinq anci recognizing ~embers is t.l-te first one to get '!our Honour's eye. Usually you go from right t.o left but t.ha.t is entirely up to '!our Honour: It is whoever catches his eye !irst. H .. ~. SP E'.AKER: To the point of order. I think .. AA. a. :1oom:s: On that pol.nt of ordar. I am known to be an unraasona.ble man so I vill let the minister speak.

I, perhaps, should clarify that t.'te point t.'lat t.he hen. the i?resicient of t.'te Council has made is obviously a good point and t.~e usual procedure is to recoqnize left to right or right to left and .... hatever. Also, I did not see< anyl:::ociy - the hen. m&::l.be.r f:om Carbonear I do r.ot believe was in his l?laca at :.'lat. par"'...i.cular time therefore I recognize the hen. Minis't.er of Labour and Manpower. now. :.m. J. cum: Thank you, Mr. Spea.ker, the hen. member will obviously get a chance to speak on this IIOSt important piece of legislation.

Actually, I .,..as planning to speak on Monday but Ule hon .. 1:1ember who, I understand, wanted tc go before me is not in t."le House at. this moment so I ·o~ill make my few remarks t:ocia:r and the hen. member will obviously get an opportunity to speak XOnday. 2880

Novmeber 16, 1979 :=ape :.to. ll47 SD - 2 HR. J .. DIHN: ;>~e have before '-"S, ..tr. Speaker, a very important piece of legislation in this Province. It is one that should be considered very carefa.lly. It is one t.1.at, possibly, should. have been done fifteen to twency years ago in this Province.

It is one that has been under study well before 1972 but:. in 1972 the goverr~ent had a Royal Ccmm.ission set up .. the Whelan Royal Commission - to investigate in.to and report on local government in c.'le Province and make recommendations and t....~se reconce.ndations were :-eceived in 1974. rind since 1974; in 1975 a Steering Committee was set up. The Steering committ:ee was made .1p of the Executive Oirect.or of t.l-te Federation of Mayors and Munici?alities, and the President of t..'le Federation at: the time was on the Steering- COmmittee.

Since that time we still have represent:ation on t:he Steering Committee to make recommendations to gcvernment 1as a result of the Whelan Royal Commission Report 1and as a result: ot tha~ process 1 frcm 1972, when the study was co~missioned, through 1974 when t..'le re!?(lrt was made to government, through to 1979 when all of t..'le recotrmendat:ions cu.l:ninated in what I consider to be a very, ver:1 impor"t:ant piece of legislation with respect eo loea.l government in this Province.

And for hon. members benefit: t.'lis legislation relates very directl;{ t:o instanc:as in this Province where local improvement districts nave been set up that ;,rill now be town councils, will now be elected representatives and where democracy will indeed be brought ba.c:k to the people of t.he Province in those areas that do not have elected councils. Looking at the positive sides of this legislation, I think anybody can take a piece of legislat:ion of this si.:e,.. ,with t:..~e cqmplexity that it. nas, and find something in there to develop an argument around. The non. meml:ler for Bonavista Ncrt:..'l (Mr. L.

Stirling) made some points none of them, in :ny opinion, have very much validity and 1 indeed 1 I question whet.~er the hon. member read t:he act or is ac:quain ted with the people o! t..'lis Province who made their decision as t.o who the government of this Province should be~ •

November 16, 1979 ~· ~l!:-S!II$-_glQ.: MR. SPEA..~a: (~-!.:. aaird) :m. L ~ ST!:U.IHG: Tape No. ll47 SD - 3 h. point. of privilege ar. Speiik.t!r. A point of privilege. A point of privileqe. He is suggesting th.a.t I did nee read. t.'te ac-:. and as t.'te lead~ff spokesman, obviously, I did and had the responsiblity .. And he is suggesting -:.'lat I am not: acquainted with people in the municicalities and I ask him to wi-:.'tdraw :.he remarks. HR. J. DINN: ~. Speaker, ~'tere is no point of order there. The hon. member sh.ould know1 he sho1.1ld read, :·tr. Sz=eaker, to that: point of order. ~·tR. L.

S':'!P.!.ING: :tr. Speaker :-1R. SPEA..;cz?.: Order, ?lease! "'""e .;:cine of privilege th.at: has .been raised ia just a cii!ference of opinion be:eween t.·.,t() mec.bers. :.:!_R. J. DI!l!J : Thank yo1.1, !-tr. Speake:, I understand. ::: would not even want to comment. on it. flhat I die! say and what: I repeat 2882 '

trovetr.ber 16, 1979 Tape !io. 1148 NM - l is that I doubt whet:her t."le hen. mer.ter read it. So\11 ·..:het:her the hen. met'lber read it or not 1 only the hon. :neiY'.J:.;er knows, but I doubt whether the hon. :ne:r.ber went t.~rough this piece of legislation and read it in detail .. Because it is a very good piece of legislation, it has many, :nany positive aspect.s and the aspect. to which the hon. member referred was with respect to the lack of respect !or councils.

The hon. !l".etr.ber must knew, ! :nean if he did not know he could ask son-ecne before he can:.e in here and rnade remarks like that, the retttar.k was to the efface that the department had a lack of respect for coum:illors. This piece of legislation, and the aspects su